WEBVTT 00:00:00.180 --> 00:00:02.310 Matt Abrahams: We can be more confident communicators when we 00:00:02.310 --> 00:00:04.595 sync our biology and psychology. 00:00:05.414 --> 00:00:08.625 I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford 00:00:08.625 --> 00:00:10.004 Graduate School of Business. 00:00:10.305 --> 00:00:15.344 Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:15.735 --> 00:00:19.785 Recently I had the privilege to be a guest on the Huberman Lab podcast. 00:00:20.115 --> 00:00:23.654 Andrew is a colleague and I'm a big fan of his impactful show. 00:00:24.195 --> 00:00:28.415 Back before his show launched, Andrew was a guest on Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:00:28.755 --> 00:00:32.145 I wanted to give all of you a chance to listen to our conversation about 00:00:32.145 --> 00:00:37.099 how to leverage neuroscience to help us be more confident, calm communicators, 00:00:37.459 --> 00:00:42.230 and to gain insight into Andrew's best practices for clear accessible messaging. 00:00:42.650 --> 00:00:47.360 Take a listen as we open up the vault to this Rethinks episode. 00:00:48.379 --> 00:00:52.429 I am really looking forward to speaking with Andrew Huberman, who is a professor 00:00:52.429 --> 00:00:56.405 in the neurobiology department at Stanford University's School of Medicine. 00:00:56.750 --> 00:01:01.099 Andrew's research focuses on understanding the brain mechanisms controlling anxiety, 00:01:01.620 --> 00:01:04.320 cognition, and performance under stress. 00:01:04.650 --> 00:01:08.610 Additionally, Andrew works diligently to bring neuroscience research to the 00:01:08.610 --> 00:01:13.650 public through his teaching, his videos, and his Huberman Lab podcast, which 00:01:13.650 --> 00:01:15.930 needs to be in everyone's playlist. 00:01:16.304 --> 00:01:18.434 Thanks for being here, Andrew, shall we get started? 00:01:18.705 --> 00:01:19.544 Andrew Huberman: Delighted to be here. 00:01:19.785 --> 00:01:23.324 Matt Abrahams: Like me, I know you're fascinated by fear and its impact. 00:01:23.414 --> 00:01:26.294 As we all know, communicating in front of others in high stake 00:01:26.294 --> 00:01:28.935 situations can certainly involve fear. 00:01:29.145 --> 00:01:31.574 From a neurologic point of view what's going on? 00:01:31.785 --> 00:01:35.835 What happens to our voice, our speech, and our hand movements when we get nervous? 00:01:36.255 --> 00:01:40.125 Andrew Huberman: So when we get nervous, we are entering a state which 00:01:40.125 --> 00:01:46.365 is perfectly natural, but reflects one station along what's called the autonomic 00:01:46.365 --> 00:01:52.485 continuum, and really the autonomic continuum can be conceptualized as a 00:01:52.485 --> 00:01:58.005 continuum between states of very high alertness, think maximum excitement or 00:01:58.005 --> 00:02:00.315 fear, all the way down to deep sleep. 00:02:00.585 --> 00:02:05.655 So the, our states of mind and body are not discreet entities. 00:02:05.655 --> 00:02:08.625 They are along this continuum, this autonomic continuum. 00:02:08.970 --> 00:02:13.890 So when we are excited or we are nervous, we have a number of physiological 00:02:13.890 --> 00:02:18.780 responses that are purely autonomic, meaning they're purely automatic. 00:02:19.290 --> 00:02:25.890 The most important thing to realize is that it is a continuum and that there's 00:02:25.890 --> 00:02:30.510 no difference between the physiological response to something that you're 00:02:30.510 --> 00:02:34.170 excited about and something that you're nervous about, or that you're dreading. 00:02:34.410 --> 00:02:37.470 And so there's an additional component there that we need to consider. 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.549 But the most important thing above all, and I guess if people are gonna take away 00:02:41.549 --> 00:02:45.615 anything from our conversation today, it's that despite these responses being 00:02:45.615 --> 00:02:50.895 automatic, there are direct control points through which we can control the 00:02:50.895 --> 00:02:54.585 autonomic nervous system, meaning that we can dial down the level of alertness 00:02:54.735 --> 00:02:56.835 or increase the level of calmness. 00:02:56.835 --> 00:02:58.425 Those actually turn out to be two different things. 00:02:58.665 --> 00:03:03.045 So while it's called the autonomic nervous system and the autonomic continuum, it's 00:03:03.045 --> 00:03:07.785 a bit of a misnomer because there are two specific levers, or entry, points 00:03:07.785 --> 00:03:12.135 that we all have from birth that require essentially no learning, you have to know 00:03:12.135 --> 00:03:16.799 what they are, but that will allow people to control voice level of alertness, 00:03:17.010 --> 00:03:18.510 level of shaking in their hands. 00:03:18.600 --> 00:03:22.200 So it's a quite remarkable system in that it has this asymmetry, autonomic 00:03:22.200 --> 00:03:27.000 on the one hand, but with very powerful entry points for control on the other. 00:03:27.239 --> 00:03:30.269 Matt Abrahams: I wanna get back to the notion that you brought 00:03:30.269 --> 00:03:35.459 up about how we experience the physiological arousal that we get. 00:03:35.459 --> 00:03:39.060 You said it, it, in some cases, it's due to anxiety and fear. 00:03:39.060 --> 00:03:40.620 In other cases, it's due to excitement. 00:03:40.915 --> 00:03:44.935 Part of that, I think has to do with how we label what we're experiencing. 00:03:44.935 --> 00:03:48.205 And I know that there's some research from my academic field that says 00:03:48.205 --> 00:03:52.015 one way to help manage anxiety is just to work on how you perceive the 00:03:52.015 --> 00:03:53.965 physiological symptoms that you're having. 00:03:53.965 --> 00:03:57.505 So if you say, hey, even though my heart rate's going up, I'm getting a little 00:03:57.505 --> 00:04:01.255 sweaty and shaky, it's 'cause I'm excited to share the information I'm sharing. 00:04:01.255 --> 00:04:04.315 Versus, oh my goodness, everybody's looking at me and I'm feeling nervous. 00:04:04.315 --> 00:04:08.185 So part of it I think, has to do with how we frame the situation. 00:04:08.185 --> 00:04:09.145 Does that ring true? 00:04:09.535 --> 00:04:10.135 Andrew Huberman: Absolutely. 00:04:10.135 --> 00:04:13.975 When we are in a state of alertness, whether because of excitement or fear, 00:04:14.185 --> 00:04:17.785 the sympathetic division of the autonomic nervous system, let's just call it the 00:04:17.785 --> 00:04:22.855 alertness system, deploys a hormone from our adrenal glands, adrenaline, and it 00:04:22.855 --> 00:04:26.545 deploys the equivalent chemical in the brain, where it's called epinephrine. 00:04:26.695 --> 00:04:30.400 The same chemically identical structure, but called two different things 'cause 00:04:30.685 --> 00:04:33.415 neuroscientists and physiologists like to make things complicated. 00:04:33.745 --> 00:04:40.275 The role of adrenaline slash epinephrine is to create agitation in the body 00:04:40.575 --> 00:04:42.795 and to create focus in the mind. 00:04:43.035 --> 00:04:48.225 And this is a, an important concept because that agitation makes it harder 00:04:48.225 --> 00:04:50.505 to be still, which is sort of a duh. 00:04:50.595 --> 00:04:52.125 That's the definition of agitation. 00:04:52.485 --> 00:04:56.955 But it was designed to move us, to physically move us so that we 00:04:56.955 --> 00:05:01.485 would be biased toward ambulation or biased toward shifting what, 00:05:01.485 --> 00:05:03.495 from one position to a new one. 00:05:03.825 --> 00:05:07.215 And so one of the toughest things for many people is to tolerate that 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.650 level of adrenaline or alertness when they have to be still. 00:05:10.890 --> 00:05:13.710 The simplest example I can give of this that I think most people will be 00:05:13.710 --> 00:05:18.060 familiar with is if in the days where we congregated in person, there's this 00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:21.630 traditional practice of going around the room and introducing yourself and 00:05:21.630 --> 00:05:23.010 saying something about what you do. 00:05:23.280 --> 00:05:26.580 And most people actually find that to be very stressful. 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:28.830 Especially if they sit toward the end of the line. 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:30.330 Now, why would that be, right? 00:05:30.330 --> 00:05:32.430 Most people know their name and can say their name. 00:05:32.430 --> 00:05:34.110 Most people know what they do and can say that. 00:05:34.590 --> 00:05:36.810 It's anything but a high stress circumstance. 00:05:36.810 --> 00:05:39.420 And occasionally there's some social pressure where if someone's 00:05:39.420 --> 00:05:42.900 very funny before us or they say something in a particularly nice way 00:05:42.900 --> 00:05:45.990 than we feel like some additional pressure to do that as well. 00:05:46.349 --> 00:05:49.950 But it really has more to do with the fact that when we're in a room listening 00:05:49.950 --> 00:05:53.070 to somebody, we can, we're comfortable with the fact that we're not gonna 00:05:53.070 --> 00:05:56.099 speak or walk or do much, and we could just sit there and write or listen or 00:05:56.099 --> 00:05:57.930 text or whatever it is we have to do. 00:05:58.440 --> 00:06:03.900 As we are called on to say something, the reason that it's easier to do 00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:09.270 early in the line is because we are holding on to a reverberatory circuit. 00:06:09.270 --> 00:06:13.290 There are circuits in our brain that anticipate action and prepare us for 00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:18.030 action, and the longer we keep that in check, the more challenging it becomes. 00:06:18.390 --> 00:06:23.640 When we are trying to withhold action, but we're preparing for action there's 00:06:23.640 --> 00:06:29.109 a lot of reverberatory activity in our nervous system, and it feels like stress. 00:06:29.380 --> 00:06:31.920 Getting ready to go up to the podium is tough. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.860 When we get up to the podium, many people, including myself, find that 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:38.250 if we rock back and forth a little bit or we can engage some movement in 00:06:38.250 --> 00:06:40.170 our body suddenly we start to relax. 00:06:40.170 --> 00:06:44.895 And that's because adrenaline slash epinephrine was designed to move us, 00:06:45.105 --> 00:06:49.425 and it wasn't designed to move us in response to incoming large predators, it 00:06:49.425 --> 00:06:51.465 was, but that's not its primary function. 00:06:51.495 --> 00:06:54.855 Its primary function was to move us from whatever position we're in to a 00:06:54.855 --> 00:06:58.845 new position, sometimes towards things, sometimes away from things, depending 00:06:58.845 --> 00:07:02.145 on whether or not we want the experience or we want to avoid the experience. 00:07:02.490 --> 00:07:06.810 But the actual inner experience, what we call interoception, our perception 00:07:06.810 --> 00:07:11.460 of our internal landscape is identical for something that we want to approach 00:07:11.460 --> 00:07:13.470 versus we want to move away from. 00:07:13.710 --> 00:07:16.270 Absolutely identical, from the neck down that is. 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:18.060 Matt Abrahams: Really interesting. 00:07:18.060 --> 00:07:23.370 So if you can reframe the physiological response, you can see it very differently. 00:07:23.640 --> 00:07:27.750 And I find fascinating that when we see somebody who is nervous 00:07:27.990 --> 00:07:30.930 moving one way versus the other way, as an audience member, we 00:07:30.930 --> 00:07:32.160 have very different perceptions. 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.690 So if somebody steps up on a stage and then takes a step back as they're starting 00:07:36.690 --> 00:07:40.825 to speak it looks like they're retreating and therefore maybe nervous or shy. 00:07:41.005 --> 00:07:44.275 But if somebody actually steps forward, we have a perception that 00:07:44.275 --> 00:07:47.815 they're confident and stepping into the challenging situation. 00:07:47.815 --> 00:07:51.715 So it's not only what we perceive, it's how the audience perceives it as well. 00:07:52.195 --> 00:07:54.685 Andrew Huberman: It might be useful for people to think about the fact 00:07:54.685 --> 00:07:57.925 that there's only three responses we can have to any circumstance. 00:07:58.165 --> 00:08:01.590 One is to stay still, one is to move forward, or one is to move back. 00:08:02.325 --> 00:08:06.284 Back in 2018, a graduate student in the neurosciences program did her 00:08:06.284 --> 00:08:10.244 thesis with me, Lindsey Salay and I published a paper in the journal Nature. 00:08:10.405 --> 00:08:16.575 Lindsey discovered a brain circuit that controls the movement toward threat. 00:08:16.664 --> 00:08:18.734 Now, this isn't the kind of movement that will get you killed. 00:08:18.734 --> 00:08:22.575 This is the kind of movement toward, in an intelligent way, in an adaptive way, 00:08:22.575 --> 00:08:26.025 towards something that, in this case, an animal or a person wants to do, but 00:08:26.025 --> 00:08:30.135 feels a tremendous amount of autonomic arousal of stress and nervousness about. 00:08:31.005 --> 00:08:32.684 The take home message is the following. 00:08:32.924 --> 00:08:38.385 Forward movement under conditions of anxiety or high levels of alertness, 00:08:38.684 --> 00:08:42.525 AKA stress, triggers the activation of a circuit deep in the brain that 00:08:42.525 --> 00:08:44.205 releases the neurochemical dopamine. 00:08:44.325 --> 00:08:48.645 Dopamine, of course, is a molecule that is most commonly associated with a sensation 00:08:48.645 --> 00:08:53.165 of reward, and it is released when we achieve something that we want to achieve. 00:08:53.565 --> 00:08:57.660 But the other very interesting function of dopamine is to increase the 00:08:57.660 --> 00:09:02.490 probability that we will move toward similar types of goals in the future. 00:09:02.760 --> 00:09:05.310 So dopamine is not just the molecule reward, it's the 00:09:05.310 --> 00:09:07.410 molecule of motivation and drive. 00:09:07.770 --> 00:09:11.370 And so Lindsey's results have a number of different implications, but I think 00:09:11.370 --> 00:09:16.080 if people can just conceptualize that the anxiety or stress response is 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.280 the same as the excitement response they feel different because of some 00:09:20.280 --> 00:09:24.450 top-down perception or verbiage that we introduced to it, but they're 00:09:24.450 --> 00:09:28.620 actually identical physiologically, and that forward movement, provided its 00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:32.790 adaptive, toward a goal, triggers the activation of chemicals in the brain 00:09:32.790 --> 00:09:37.920 and body that will make the subsequent pursuit of those same or similar goals 00:09:38.340 --> 00:09:40.680 more likely and more pleasurable. 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:41.940 Matt Abrahams: That's really cool. 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:45.240 So learning to take the stage and step forward, leaning in 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:46.650 when you're virtual can help. 00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:50.190 And I believe in some of the work of yours that I read, you don't 00:09:50.190 --> 00:09:51.690 actually have to even physically move. 00:09:51.690 --> 00:09:54.810 If you simulate movement with your eyes, you can have a similar effect, 00:09:54.810 --> 00:09:56.280 and I'd like for you to talk about that. 00:09:56.730 --> 00:09:59.010 Andrew Huberman: Back in the early eighties, someone actually in Palo 00:09:59.010 --> 00:10:02.970 Alto, a woman by the name of Francine Shapiro is a psychologist, developed 00:10:02.970 --> 00:10:06.000 a technique for, it was actually developed for trauma treatment. 00:10:06.030 --> 00:10:10.270 She was a psychologist, did some work at Stanford, but also at a nearby clinic. 00:10:10.700 --> 00:10:15.600 And essentially, she had found that taking walks was helpful 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:17.370 for her anxiety and stress. 00:10:17.370 --> 00:10:20.040 Something that everyone now I think says, okay, duh. 00:10:20.040 --> 00:10:22.650 But we always thought that it was because of movement of the body, but 00:10:22.650 --> 00:10:27.130 she wanted to import some of that self-induced relaxation to her clinic. 00:10:27.640 --> 00:10:30.510 And she was clever enough to create this thing that they call 00:10:30.510 --> 00:10:34.800 EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprocessing, which simply involves 00:10:34.800 --> 00:10:36.329 moving the eyes from side to side. 00:10:36.329 --> 00:10:39.359 It looks a little goofy if you see someone do it, but moving the eyes 00:10:39.359 --> 00:10:43.680 from side to side, not up or down, but side to side eye movement actually 00:10:43.680 --> 00:10:47.849 triggers, we now know, suppression of the amygdala, this fear center in the brain. 00:10:48.550 --> 00:10:51.910 For years, people would ask me about EMDR, 'cause I'm a vision scientist 00:10:51.910 --> 00:10:55.240 and I work on stress and I thought it was totally kooky and crazy 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:56.290 and I didn't believe any of it. 00:10:56.380 --> 00:10:59.530 My response was, in my mind anyway, was sort of like, okay, take your 00:10:59.530 --> 00:11:03.400 EMDR and your magic carpet and head down to Big Sur and, and let's talk 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:04.395 later if you want to talk science. 00:11:05.229 --> 00:11:09.130 I was really quite wrong because a couple years ago there were no fewer 00:11:09.130 --> 00:11:12.760 than five papers published in very high quality journals, including Nature, 00:11:12.910 --> 00:11:16.959 in mice, non-human primates, and humans showing that these lateralized 00:11:16.989 --> 00:11:20.410 eye movements lead to suppression of this fear center in the brain. 00:11:20.770 --> 00:11:21.189 So. 00:11:21.525 --> 00:11:23.055 It's a quite long lasting effect. 00:11:23.205 --> 00:11:25.215 I should just mention if people are gonna use it to deal with 00:11:25.215 --> 00:11:28.765 actual trauma, that should be done with a real trauma therapist. 00:11:29.055 --> 00:11:33.125 It works best for specific circumstances like public speaking. 00:11:33.305 --> 00:11:37.005 It's not great for sort of reducing your stress about your entire childhood, or 00:11:37.005 --> 00:11:39.795 your entire divorce, or your entire 2020. 00:11:39.945 --> 00:11:44.160 It's, that's gearing toward specific circumstances, but here's how it works. 00:11:44.160 --> 00:11:47.079 You move your eyes from side to side for about thirty seconds, 00:11:47.079 --> 00:11:48.449 which is actually quite a long time. 00:11:48.449 --> 00:11:50.369 You don't do this during the event. 00:11:50.369 --> 00:11:55.680 But that creates a state of reduced alertness, AKA stress, not so much you 00:11:55.680 --> 00:11:59.430 fall asleep, in your system, and then you're able to better approach things 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:01.800 with more ease and with less alertness. 00:12:01.979 --> 00:12:04.920 Matt Abrahams: I've heard you mention on your podcast that there are two 00:12:04.920 --> 00:12:07.500 approaches to addressing stress. 00:12:07.620 --> 00:12:08.760 Can you share those with us? 00:12:09.089 --> 00:12:10.415 Andrew Huberman: The two approaches are you can either 00:12:11.069 --> 00:12:13.260 reduce your stress in real time. 00:12:13.469 --> 00:12:17.280 Things like these eye movements right before you go into a stressful event, 00:12:17.280 --> 00:12:21.329 like up on stage or hard conversation, or even if you're just experiencing anxiety. 00:12:21.510 --> 00:12:24.150 There's a breathing tool I'll share with you in a moment that's grounded 00:12:24.180 --> 00:12:25.709 deeply in physiology as well. 00:12:26.040 --> 00:12:29.310 Or you can raise your stress threshold. 00:12:29.430 --> 00:12:35.370 So things like ice baths, running up steep mountains, exposure therapy, those 00:12:35.370 --> 00:12:40.350 are actually designed to increase your tolerance, your cognitive tolerance for 00:12:40.350 --> 00:12:43.860 high levels of agitation in your body, increasing the probability that you'll 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:49.620 stay still, not say the wrong thing, not strike anyone, not lose your cool. 00:12:50.010 --> 00:12:54.300 So it's learning to be calm in storm, or what is sometimes referred to as 00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:55.950 being comfortable being uncomfortable. 00:12:56.400 --> 00:13:00.780 That is a distinctly different set of practices then things like the eye 00:13:00.780 --> 00:13:04.260 movements I described, or the second thing, which is a real time tool for 00:13:04.260 --> 00:13:08.040 calming oneself that my laboratory is working closely on with David 00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:11.580 Spiegel's laboratory in the Department of Psychiatry, which is we ask the 00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:17.600 question, what breathing approach is the best to calm oneself in real time? 00:13:17.830 --> 00:13:22.100 Because meditation is wonderful, TM is wonderful, if you're of drinking 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:25.040 age and you can tolerate it without going into excess, a nice glass of 00:13:25.040 --> 00:13:28.880 wine is also another way to activate the, the parasympathetic system. 00:13:29.209 --> 00:13:33.199 So is a massage, so is a, a dip in the hot tub or a sauna. 00:13:33.260 --> 00:13:35.270 Matt Abrahams: Sounds like you're describing a nice date. 00:13:35.540 --> 00:13:36.110 Andrew Huberman: Exactly. 00:13:36.140 --> 00:13:38.829 Or remember it's called the rest and digest system for a reason. 00:13:38.829 --> 00:13:42.860 One of the most powerful ways to shift your autonomic nervous system to one of 00:13:42.860 --> 00:13:45.050 more calm, is to fill your gut, food. 00:13:45.885 --> 00:13:49.805 Then the distension of your gut sends signals through the vagus nerve to 00:13:49.805 --> 00:13:53.235 a little set of neurons right behind your ear called the nodose ganglia, 00:13:53.444 --> 00:13:56.775 which projects into your brain, gives you a little bit of a dopamine hit, 00:13:56.985 --> 00:14:00.584 this is well established, as well as activating areas of the brain that 00:14:00.584 --> 00:14:01.974 are involved in calming you down. 00:14:02.295 --> 00:14:04.569 And there are a lot of ways to control the autonomic nervous 00:14:04.569 --> 00:14:06.939 system slowly and indirectly. 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.120 Massage, hot tub, big meal, et cetera. 00:14:10.329 --> 00:14:12.400 We're talking about real time control fast. 00:14:12.609 --> 00:14:16.060 So the best way that we know, and this is work that's still in progress, is to 00:14:16.060 --> 00:14:18.350 use what are called physiological sighs. 00:14:18.579 --> 00:14:20.560 So these were discovered back in the thirties. 00:14:20.829 --> 00:14:24.790 Turns out that when you are stressed, you are breathing less deeply. 00:14:25.155 --> 00:14:27.375 The most common advice is to take a deep breath. 00:14:27.585 --> 00:14:30.535 Turns out that's exactly the wrong advice. 00:14:30.675 --> 00:14:36.075 The exhale emphasized breathing leads to much more rapid activation of the 00:14:36.075 --> 00:14:37.755 calming arm of the nervous system. 00:14:38.025 --> 00:14:40.905 And it turns out you don't just want to exhale. 00:14:41.115 --> 00:14:43.005 You want to do a double inhale. 00:14:43.005 --> 00:14:46.005 So inhale twice through the nose, so inhale through the nose, and then 00:14:46.005 --> 00:14:49.935 before you exhale, sneak in a little bit more air and then do a long exhale. 00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:53.939 You do this just one to three times, so it's inhale again, even if you 00:14:53.939 --> 00:14:55.590 just sneak the tiniest bit of air. 00:14:55.590 --> 00:14:58.830 Ideally, the inhales are done through the nose and then exhale through the mouth. 00:14:59.280 --> 00:15:00.330 Now, why does this work? 00:15:00.630 --> 00:15:04.230 Turns out that your lungs are not just two big bags of air. 00:15:04.470 --> 00:15:09.930 They are billions of little tiny stacks called the alveoli of the lungs. 00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:13.830 Those little sacs are contiguous, more or less, with the 00:15:13.830 --> 00:15:15.240 vasculature, with the blood supply. 00:15:15.675 --> 00:15:19.815 So when you exhale, you offload carbon dioxide and a lot of the 00:15:19.935 --> 00:15:22.720 stress response is due to elevated carbon dioxide in the bloodstream. 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:27.209 If you've ever been to a kid's party and you're asked to blow up a balloon and 00:15:27.209 --> 00:15:30.089 you blow on the balloon, sometimes it inflates right away, but if it doesn't, 00:15:30.089 --> 00:15:32.439 you give two hard pushes with air. 00:15:32.560 --> 00:15:35.550 One, two, and the same thing happens with the alveoli of the lungs. 00:15:35.550 --> 00:15:39.270 As we get stressed, they start to collapse, they flatten out, and to 00:15:39.270 --> 00:15:43.495 reinflate them, the double inhale brings maximal air into the alveoli of your 00:15:43.495 --> 00:15:47.335 lungs, and then you offload the maximum amount of carbon dioxide when you exhale. 00:15:47.395 --> 00:15:49.675 So this is very simple, very fast. 00:15:49.675 --> 00:15:52.195 You can actually do it during exercise as well. 00:15:52.345 --> 00:15:55.225 So if you ever find that your heart is pounding and you want to 00:15:55.225 --> 00:16:00.075 calm down, first thing is exhale, then maybe try the double inhale. 00:16:00.314 --> 00:16:01.825 And then exhale to follow. 00:16:02.125 --> 00:16:06.925 Usually, at least what we find in our studies, is that within just one to three 00:16:06.925 --> 00:16:10.915 of those cycles, meaning within about five seconds, autonomic nervous system 00:16:10.915 --> 00:16:12.805 starts to shift more towards calmness. 00:16:13.135 --> 00:16:15.775 And then if you like, you can start using your eye movements 00:16:15.775 --> 00:16:17.575 or whatever cognitive reframing. 00:16:17.814 --> 00:16:20.575 But one of the things that I think will resonate with people, and I 00:16:20.575 --> 00:16:24.265 hope it does, is that it is very hard to control the mind with the mind. 00:16:24.540 --> 00:16:28.830 When you're stepping up to the podium and you are nervous, you can say, oh yeah, 00:16:28.830 --> 00:16:30.810 that nervousness is actually excitement. 00:16:30.810 --> 00:16:33.390 And I think, you know, and this is, I must be really agitated 00:16:33.390 --> 00:16:35.070 'cause I really want to do this. 00:16:35.070 --> 00:16:39.270 And, but in that moment of stress, it's very hard to control what's going on. 00:16:39.270 --> 00:16:42.300 So under conditions where your mind is not where you want it, 00:16:42.750 --> 00:16:44.970 use the body to control the mind. 00:16:45.329 --> 00:16:48.540 Matt Abrahams: So you've just shared techniques for what we can do when 00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:51.209 we're directly experiencing anxiety. 00:16:51.420 --> 00:16:54.750 What can we do to prepare for anxiety in advance? 00:16:55.155 --> 00:16:57.615 Andrew Huberman: The other thing to do is the stuff that you do away from 00:16:57.615 --> 00:17:01.935 the podium, away from the big event, or the hard conversation, and that 00:17:01.935 --> 00:17:06.585 involves deliberately taking yourself into states of heightened alertness. 00:17:06.885 --> 00:17:09.855 As my colleague David Spiegel likes to say, it's not just about the 00:17:09.855 --> 00:17:12.525 state you find yourself in, it's how you got there and whether or 00:17:12.525 --> 00:17:13.685 not you had anything to do with it. 00:17:14.175 --> 00:17:17.895 And what he's really saying is that when you drive your nervous system into a state 00:17:17.895 --> 00:17:21.555 of high alertness and you learn to be calm there, you achieve a certain kind of 00:17:21.555 --> 00:17:26.925 superpower such that when real life puts you into those states without any warning 00:17:26.925 --> 00:17:29.475 and very fast, it's like driving in fog. 00:17:29.535 --> 00:17:31.425 The first time you do it it's scary as heck. 00:17:31.565 --> 00:17:35.075 The fifth time you do it it's still scary, but you've been there before. 00:17:35.425 --> 00:17:37.005 And so you're now a good driver. 00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:40.879 So the way you do this can be of different, you know, practices, but 00:17:40.879 --> 00:17:45.169 one of the best ones is a very cold shower and trying to stay calm for one 00:17:45.169 --> 00:17:47.120 to three minutes in a very cold shower. 00:17:47.270 --> 00:17:48.740 Not something that I like. 00:17:48.950 --> 00:17:52.740 And there you use a protocol of breathing that involves taking twenty 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:57.250 to thirty deep inhales for reasons that now should be obvious, increase 00:17:57.250 --> 00:17:59.100 your heart rate, and then big exhale. 00:17:59.310 --> 00:18:01.000 Matt Abrahams: Hyperventilating like. 00:18:01.439 --> 00:18:03.750 Andrew Huberman: You're hyperventilating and by the twenty-fifth one, 00:18:03.750 --> 00:18:05.189 you will be very stressed. 00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:08.220 Now, I want to say that if people have, are panic attack prone or 00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:10.980 anxiety attack prone, this is getting, I do not recommend this. 00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:11.760 Very uncomfortable. 00:18:12.149 --> 00:18:15.960 But then what you do at the end of that twenty-five breaths is you offload all 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:20.835 your air, you empty your lungs, and then you sit for about fifteen to, some 00:18:20.835 --> 00:18:24.675 people can go longer, sixty seconds or so, of lung's empty, and you try 00:18:24.675 --> 00:18:27.945 and feel peaceful with that heightened level of adrenaline in your body. 00:18:28.125 --> 00:18:29.925 Now, never do this near water. 00:18:29.925 --> 00:18:32.805 I wanna be really clear because there is this thing called shallow water, but don't 00:18:32.805 --> 00:18:36.855 even do it in a puddle because I, I don't want anyone injuring themselves or worse. 00:18:36.915 --> 00:18:39.975 But if you repeat that for two or three cycles, what you will 00:18:39.975 --> 00:18:41.985 find, it's pretty remarkable. 00:18:42.285 --> 00:18:45.885 There's some nuance to these practices, but they all kind of start 00:18:45.885 --> 00:18:47.505 and end with vision or breathing. 00:18:47.975 --> 00:18:50.625 Matt Abrahams: And I love how you make them simple for us to understand. 00:18:50.625 --> 00:18:53.745 So they're the things we can do in the moment or right before 00:18:53.745 --> 00:18:55.185 the moment of the anxiety. 00:18:55.185 --> 00:18:59.565 And then there are things we can do to, in essence, desensitize ourselves in advance. 00:18:59.805 --> 00:19:03.285 Now we are all communicating in this virtual world these days. 00:19:03.620 --> 00:19:06.950 Is there anything from your experience of how eyes work that 00:19:06.950 --> 00:19:08.480 would indicate what we should do? 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:11.480 For example, people often say you need to look at the camera, 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.030 so it looks like you're looking at the person on the other end. 00:19:14.030 --> 00:19:18.740 Any insight you have about this virtual communication we all do? 00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:22.820 Andrew Huberman: First of all, it's a very unnatural time because we are not used 00:19:22.820 --> 00:19:26.480 to seeing a little picture of ourselves moving while we look at other people. 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:29.220 Everyone's carrying a little mirror around on their shoulder 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:30.650 for us now in the Zoom world. 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:35.250 So turn that off or get it outta the way because it will interfere 00:19:35.250 --> 00:19:39.149 with your presence to the conversation and other people's 00:19:39.149 --> 00:19:40.770 perception of how present you are. 00:19:41.159 --> 00:19:44.769 The other thing that's really important is that there's a lot of research on gaze 00:19:44.769 --> 00:19:47.580 and eye contact and frequency of blinking. 00:19:47.685 --> 00:19:52.035 The most powerful way to connect with somebody through Zoom or just 00:19:52.035 --> 00:19:55.875 in person is actually not to stare directly at them the whole time, 00:19:56.085 --> 00:20:01.905 is a combination of direct gaze, averting gaze, and closing one's eyes. 00:20:02.145 --> 00:20:05.685 A real conversation involves moments where you're looking away trying to, 00:20:06.015 --> 00:20:08.835 I, like I'm doing right now, I'm trying to, you know, grab a concept and say 00:20:08.835 --> 00:20:10.665 it, uh, in a way that makes sense. 00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.840 But then also where we reengage, and so a conversation is actually 00:20:13.840 --> 00:20:17.080 a process of looking directly at the other person and then breaking 00:20:17.080 --> 00:20:18.610 gaze and then coming back again. 00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:22.450 The other thing that works quite well, if people are experiencing eye fatigue 00:20:22.990 --> 00:20:25.870 from looking at screens up close, and there's a whole other conversation, 00:20:26.290 --> 00:20:29.534 is one thing that works well is to see someone's face at the beginning. 00:20:29.534 --> 00:20:33.254 Say hello, because faces are a powerful, you know, they collects 00:20:33.254 --> 00:20:35.115 a lot of context for the brain. 00:20:35.345 --> 00:20:38.264 Saying hello, but then going into pure audio and then going back 00:20:38.264 --> 00:20:39.855 to visual before you part ways. 00:20:40.125 --> 00:20:44.655 That may actually be a more effective form of Zoom communication than pretending 00:20:44.655 --> 00:20:47.925 we're all in the same room and trying to stare at one another the entire time and 00:20:47.925 --> 00:20:49.784 sometimes see that reflection of ourself. 00:20:49.845 --> 00:20:49.935 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:20:49.935 --> 00:20:53.205 That's advice that others on this podcast have given that, that you don't 00:20:53.205 --> 00:20:55.034 have to show your video the whole time. 00:20:55.370 --> 00:20:58.730 So before we end, Andrew, I'd like to ask you the same three questions I ask 00:20:58.730 --> 00:21:00.650 everybody who joins me on this podcast. 00:21:00.650 --> 00:21:01.280 Are you up for that? 00:21:01.580 --> 00:21:02.060 Andrew Huberman: Definitely. 00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:04.490 Matt Abrahams: If you were to capture the best communication 00:21:04.490 --> 00:21:08.720 advice you've ever received as a five to seven word presentation 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:10.970 slide title, what would that be? 00:21:11.540 --> 00:21:16.355 Andrew Huberman: Speak to inform and teach, not impress. 00:21:17.054 --> 00:21:17.925 Matt Abrahams: Ooh, I like that. 00:21:17.955 --> 00:21:21.075 So it's about getting the information across and you are certainly a master 00:21:21.075 --> 00:21:24.825 at that, and I encourage everybody to search out some of the work you've done. 00:21:24.825 --> 00:21:29.294 Your podcast is fantastic because you do such a nice job of something we talked 00:21:29.294 --> 00:21:32.985 about on an earlier podcast, how to make complex information accessible. 00:21:33.284 --> 00:21:34.544 You do a great job of that. 00:21:34.544 --> 00:21:37.514 You certainly don't dumb it down, but you make it accessible 00:21:37.514 --> 00:21:39.135 as you've done for us today. 00:21:39.524 --> 00:21:41.024 Let me ask question number two. 00:21:41.325 --> 00:21:44.145 Who is a communication that you admire and why? 00:21:44.504 --> 00:21:47.024 Andrew Huberman: There are two forms of communication that really 00:21:47.024 --> 00:21:51.405 appeal to me and the they will seem at odds with one another. 00:21:51.764 --> 00:21:56.175 I love poetry because really great poetry doesn't really 00:21:56.175 --> 00:21:59.294 make sense at a cognitive level. 00:21:59.715 --> 00:22:04.544 It gets to a kind of what probably is some sort of deeper universal meaning. 00:22:04.575 --> 00:22:09.899 It probably is tapping into brain circuits that are more on a emotional level or 00:22:09.899 --> 00:22:12.600 that reside in the brain body connection. 00:22:12.810 --> 00:22:14.040 I really believe that. 00:22:14.189 --> 00:22:16.469 So that speaks to some sort of quote unquote truth. 00:22:16.620 --> 00:22:20.250 So I love poetry, and I'm a big Wendell Berry fan. 00:22:20.310 --> 00:22:23.520 I'm also a big Joe Strummer fan, you know, most famous for being the 00:22:23.520 --> 00:22:26.730 singer of the Clash, for the things he said, not while he was on stage. 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:30.360 Was brilliant in terms of his offstage speech. 00:22:30.540 --> 00:22:33.210 I've referred people to check out some of the things that Joe said later 00:22:33.210 --> 00:22:37.020 in his life were really remarkable insights into human beings and humanity. 00:22:37.020 --> 00:22:39.090 There's some real core truth there. 00:22:39.389 --> 00:22:46.919 And in the world of science, Claude Desplan is a biology professor at NYU 00:22:46.919 --> 00:22:52.950 who studies insect vision, and the only word that I can use to describe what 00:22:52.950 --> 00:22:55.830 it is to hear one of Claude's lectures, whether or not you're familiar with 00:22:55.830 --> 00:22:58.950 biology or not, is pure enchantment. 00:22:59.340 --> 00:23:03.480 He transports you into a world where, frankly, I don't really care about 00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:05.879 dragonfly vision on a regular basis. 00:23:05.879 --> 00:23:09.570 But when I listen to Claude speak, I think about human vision. 00:23:09.600 --> 00:23:11.100 I think about love. 00:23:11.159 --> 00:23:16.110 He talks about the love spots of the dragonfly eyes, that for pursuing mates 00:23:16.110 --> 00:23:17.970 and food, and it is just remarkable. 00:23:18.669 --> 00:23:21.460 Anyone that can do that is incredible. 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:26.860 But Claude is the world heavyweight champion of making biology 00:23:27.100 --> 00:23:29.230 fascinating and delightful. 00:23:29.520 --> 00:23:31.659 Matt Abrahams: I'm gonna check his lectures out for sure. 00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:33.070 Last question for you. 00:23:33.370 --> 00:23:38.050 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:23:38.710 --> 00:23:39.310 Andrew Huberman: Passion. 00:23:39.669 --> 00:23:41.800 The speaker has to love the topic. 00:23:42.340 --> 00:23:48.225 And organizational logic, there has to be a structure to the information. 00:23:48.285 --> 00:23:51.975 It just can't be bullet points and beginning, middle end kind of thing. 00:23:52.245 --> 00:23:53.595 And clarity. 00:23:53.895 --> 00:23:57.405 If people walk away understanding more than they did at the 00:23:57.405 --> 00:23:59.925 beginning, then you won. 00:24:00.435 --> 00:24:02.505 It's back to the most important thing to do is to teach 00:24:02.505 --> 00:24:03.765 your audience, educate them. 00:24:04.245 --> 00:24:05.805 Matt Abrahams: Passion, structure and clarity. 00:24:05.805 --> 00:24:09.255 PSC, we're gonna add that as another acronym to your list of many 00:24:09.255 --> 00:24:10.965 acronyms I've heard you talk about. 00:24:11.429 --> 00:24:13.530 Andrew, it was fantastic to have you here. 00:24:13.860 --> 00:24:17.129 I'm taking a deep breath to calm myself down from all the exciting 00:24:17.189 --> 00:24:18.449 information that you shared. 00:24:18.449 --> 00:24:19.439 Thank you so much. 00:24:19.740 --> 00:24:24.060 It is my true hope that all of us listening in can apply some of these tools 00:24:24.060 --> 00:24:26.399 and hacks to optimize our communication. 00:24:26.550 --> 00:24:27.030 Thank you. 00:24:27.419 --> 00:24:28.379 Andrew Huberman: Thanks so much for having me. 00:24:31.135 --> 00:24:34.320 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for a special Rethinks episode of 00:24:34.320 --> 00:24:36.629 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:24:36.935 --> 00:24:41.705 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:24:41.945 --> 00:24:43.565 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:24:43.775 --> 00:24:46.205 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:24:46.655 --> 00:24:49.955 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:50.135 --> 00:24:52.055 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:24:52.325 --> 00:24:55.355 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram. 00:24:55.754 --> 00:24:59.655 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:24:59.655 --> 00:25:01.754 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:25:02.264 --> 00:25:06.495 Please stay tuned to learn more about the Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community, 00:25:06.885 --> 00:25:12.394 and you can always get additional information at fastersmarter.io/premium.