Well, everyone, welcome to the first episode of this podcast.
This is the long game podcast, and it's going to be centered around heated rivalry.
Now, what we're going to do is we're going to look at different episodes and we're going to talk through them, take them one at a time and just sort of give our general thoughts,
what we thought of, what was going on, how excited we are for the rest of them and just how it's influenced everybody in terms of like the media and
how excited everyone's gotten over it and just, yeah, generally talk about it, give a good discussion and see what we come up with.
My name's Declan, this is Silvan and we're just gonna sit and we're gonna discuss whatever we loved about the show.
So, what were your initial thoughts about this show?
Because obviously you've not read the books and I have.
So what did you think you were sort of getting yourself into?
That's a really good question.
I actually had no expectations watching the show.
I remember there was a lot of hype around TikTok specifically, but also Instagram, but mainly TikTok.
And I just knew that it was a gay hockey show.
That's all I knew.
And because I haven't read the books, I'm going to go into this not having read any of the books.
So I think it'll give us a really interesting nuance because you've read the series.
series is amazing.
It's really good.
And the books themselves, like they're part of like a wider sort of series of books.
So they've jumped from, you know, straight jump straight into the second book.
So they have so they've not done the first book that actually happens in episode three.
So they've done it.
They changed up the timeline of it a little bit.
And I think the first book wasn't quite as popular as the second.
second was very popular so was and then the final book came out then which was basically a continuation of that story but the first one wasn't as popular people weren't as in love
with it so they weren't so I get the decision to to basically focus on Ilya and Shane rather than Scott but his story is very important for theirs because so much of who he is
and what he does throughout the series matters a lot to them eventually so
yeah I can sort of see why they've gone with that structure but you'll understand that a bit more as the episodes start to come out and as you're watching them.
Yeah and full disclosure we're going to have lots of spoilers in here so if you haven't watched episode one please just skip this and watch episode one first.
Yeah yeah come back that's true.
So having read the books what were your expectations given that you knew the storyline and what was going to happen?
Honestly, I didn't expect it to be as high quality as it was.
I was expecting something quite cheap, sawing a little CW.
Does that make sense?
That sort of cheesy, teen, like everything is centered around sex and yet you never see it.
That sort of format, that's what I was expecting.
I wasn't expecting it to be this really artistic.
really beautifully shot, lighted, colored, performed TV show.
It is so unexpected.
So my expectations were not initially high whenever I heard about it.
I thought this is just going to be some cheap knockoff and it's going to be crap.
But that is so far removed from the reality.
It's not even funny.
Yeah, and you're right, there's something quite sort of adult, but not in a pornographic kind of way, but in a, is a show for adult people.
especially because it's a gay TV show and that it was going to be aired on a pretty popular streaming service in Canada.
It wasn't originally, it's not even originally a HBO show.
I wasn't, you know, I didn't have that sort of expectation that it was going to be very artistically done or anything like that.
I just assumed it would be something.
that wouldn't shy away from the sex and the scenes and stuff like that.
And whenever you're reading these books, there's such a core element of it that you couldn't remove that stuff and do them justice.
Because so much of their emotional development and who they turn into as people is a result of what's originally a sexual connection that turns into something a lot deeper.
That's how they communicate with each other.
It's how they measure the depth of their emotions.
they're progressively having sex or as they're getting to become more more intimate the emotional intimacy is also building.
So if they were going to do show it had to go in, it really just had to go for it and I'm really glad that they did make that decision because it's paid off.
Absolutely, it's completely blown up in pop culture, especially in social media.
Everything that I scroll through on my FYP is something E to Rivalry reconnected.
And that's probably my FYP, but I don't know if it's used.
Might as well.
Yeah, it's just everywhere.
And to the point, yeah, and to the point where I can't go on TikTok the day the new episode releases because it will have spoilers.
100 % yeah like I've not opened up my free page today I'm not doing it until I watch that episode because yeah it's not fair to get spoiled even though like I've read the book so I
know what happens anyway but I just watching those scenes come to life like you want it to be like a surprise you want to have it in the moment and see how they've done it so now I
suppose that's the only bad thing is that the spoilers are everywhere so they are
You get the clubs everywhere and there's no stopping it.
Even to the point where like, you know, you've got the fan edits and you've got the music that's different to the show that's paired up with the emotional content of the scene.
And I love watching them and I love how connected people have become over this show.
And I haven't seen something like this, the...
furrer of it since like Game of Thrones in terms of the spoilers.
yeah, it's one of those things.
People are so excited about it, they want to share it all the time and it's like, stop sharing because I'm missing out on everything and you're spoiling everything for me.
So I get that element of it.
There is so much excitement around it and people are just having so much fun with it.
And I think you can sort of see that in the way that the creators, like the showrunners and actors, the way that they're responding to it.
You see plenty of their interviews now and...
they're talking about it and the success that it's had and how unexpected it's been you can really tell that they appreciate the the sort of depth of love that they've gotten for
it and yeah I think their lives are also probably forever changed now this has shot them into the stratosphere from some relatively unknown actors to you know near globally
recognized ones for people that don't even have access to the show in a lot of countries know who they are it's it's that sort of
It's that level of popularity.
It's just crazy.
Absolutely, and I think when you watch movies that Connor Storrie has done, even just a couple of years ago, he looks completely different.
And so there's been this huge transformation of not just him as an actor, but him really morphing into the character.
yeah, yeah.
It's crazy to see how his real personality when compared to his character.
I see why lot of people make a really funny comparison.
like they've like swapped personalities.
they have so Hudson would be Shane's actor.
He in real life is like he's like a feral animal.
He's crazy.
He's just that that same personality.
He just comes out with the with the best sort of stuff.
And then you have Ilya's character, played by Connor, who is so sort of friendly, so nice and so polite.
like the energy that they express in terms of their characters is so completely different from who they are as people.
It's it's it just goes to show that the acting skill for both of them is just at such a high level, like they've done an excellent job of their characters.
definitely tell once had lots of media training one maybe not so much for a good reason
And I hope they don't.
I hope they don't, really.
Right?
Have you seen this video with Hudson with the cut about his skincare routine?
It's like a five step one.
It's 20 minutes long.
I watched all 20 minutes.
He's viral.
And you might know someone, you learn nothing about skin care.
You're just learning more about how insane he is instead.
Now why do you think the show has struck the chord that it has?
Because in the bigger context, we've had previous shows that are queer related or gay centric.
You know, I can think of Queer as Folk, both the UK and the US version.
You know, there's Will and Grace, which is more of a sitcom, you know.
You know, you've always had that token gay character in a popular show that feels re-tokenistic, doesn't feel quite so real.
However, I know you talked about the CW before, but you cannot say anything bad about Dawson's Creek, which is a CW show.
I literally grew up in Dawson's Creek, which had a gay character in it.
So why do you think this show has struck a chord into so many people?
I think it's like you said, they're not token characters.
is not, it is a gay love story and it's unique.
mean, no one has ever made a TV show like this before, centered around two closeted athletes having like a romantic relationship with each other on the down low.
And
It's not just their gayness that makes them interesting.
It's everything to do with their characters and the way in which they have their own struggles, their own issues.
Ilya being Russian as a whole element to his backstory that just explodes him into a much more interesting character.
And then you have Shane as well, his ethnic background, the pressure he feels to represent sort of Asian people within hockey and he has all these expectations and...
And even the way in which their personalities carry out like Shane is a little OCD, he's a little controlling so he is.
And that again, it's like all these extra elements that just build them up into three dimensional characters that make them so engaging.
So even outside of the fact that it's a gay love story, the characters themselves are very interesting.
They're fun to watch and they're dynamic as fun to watch.
They have really great chemistry.
And I think that just
carries it for so many people that that element between the two of them they're just really entertaining to watch and you just get that feeling of wanting to root for them.
Everyone loves an underdog story and this is sort of the penultimate underdog story this is two people in love that can't pursue it and you just want them to succeed you want them
to reach out to each other and sort of build something and so yeah when you have the emotional stakes at high it's how can you not get invested.
And I think Jacob Tierney, who created the series, has done such a great job at the casting of the characters.
I think they really embodied the characters really well.
And I was watching another, again, another deep dive into the HR universe, where I think they did their screen test on Zoom.
It wasn't even in person, I believe.
Which is...
that's crazy.
Having the talent and the skill to able to spot that into actors and being able to take advantage of it in the way they did, that's rare.
It's not easy.
I think a lot of shows really struggle with their casting.
I think they make so many mistakes and it can ruin a project completely.
It's just one of those things.
It's very, very difficult to
find two actors who are as open and willing as these two guys are and also have that chemistry, that sort of friendship.
Because you can see that there seems to be a very strong friendship between the two of them in their real day-to-day lives.
I think that's an important element of it as well, that they are so freely expressive with their affection for each other even in real life.
So yeah, think that works.
Jacob Tierney noticing that element.
And that potential of in the two of them, think, has paid off in dividends anyway.
And I think as a first episode, so let's go ahead and get into the episode.
As a first episode or a pilot, I suppose, I think this episode does exactly what it needs to do.
You know, it does such a good job at introducing us to the characters.
And as somebody who hasn't read the books, I really get that there are layers to these characters.
There's layers to the story.
And I can almost envisage where this story is going to go.
I that first episode, like the thing that sticks out to me is that opening scene of the two of them outside and Ilya is smoking and Shane is out there trying to be his little
chipper friendly self and Ilya's having absolutely none of it.
The level of characterisation in the space of those two minutes is crazy.
You have Ilya who's smoking despite the fact that he's a professional athlete.
the fact that he's dismissive about Shane, but that he openly sort of checks him out.
He does, he looks him up and down the entire time.
He has that confidence.
He's cool.
He has the swagger.
the attitude like so much characterization just in that alone.
But then you have Shane there awkward body tight then, trying to put on the sort of friendly, the friendly front.
you know, doing the plights, the polite thing and, actually saying to Elliot, shouldn't smoke.
This guy does not know him at all, but he couldn't help himself.
He's seen a very particular little thing that he noticed and he was like, oh, I need to correct that.
Like that is so telling of his personality.
So it is like so much characterization in that alone.
But even the way that shot, it's just very nicely staged and the whole thing just works as a character opening.
It's a masterpiece.
It's so clever, so well done.
I'm curious, how does it open in the book?
How is it different?
Or is it different?
I think it's the same way.
It's been that long now since I read it.
that scene is in there, so is.
And Rachel Reed, Free Outdoor Books, is very good at characterizing people.
The difference is that Jacob Tierney has an obstacle to overcome, which is that you cannot read the character's whenever you're doing a TV show.
So you need to rely very heavily on the sort of
of mise en scene, what's being shown to the audience, like facial features, the way they stand, the way that they're dressed, all of that adds up to characterizing them and to
express their thoughts so that the audience can understand without you literally having to just give exposition and explain what you're thinking.
Yeah, and I think the direction coupled with the acting is really top tier because you can see that there are moments when both the characters of Iliya and Shane are sort of looking
or the way they direct their gaze.
It just says so much.
100%.
You can feel the expectation behind every little look, every little emotion.
And I think that's what really grips you in is you're trying to read them in the way that they're trying to read each other.
So you are, so you get the little moments.
So you try and like, Oh, he's thinking that about him or he's definitely, he's got the eyes for him now.
Like all these little sort of micro emotions that they go through and that they're able to express.
like on the screen it's it's incredible like I'll probably say it a few times but these guys are phenomenal actors they're so so good and someone needs to give them their flowers
Definitely, and I forgot how quickly the hockey scenes come into play.
Like straight after that scene you've got a hockey scene.
Like it goes straight into the actual sport.
I just thought it was going to be hinted at.
I didn't think we actually going to see any hockey.
this is the thing.
It's so tied into their relationship and it's so tied into who they are as people as well, even the way they play and the way they conduct themselves.
The hockey is the medium.
They help explain that, like that element of their characters.
mean, in scene you have Ilya spending his entire time in the ice, taunting all the other players and trying to get off with dirty tricks and whatever.
And it just, it perfectly expresses his personality.
Shane is always focused, he's always direct, always, he is the man with the plan and he is going in and he gives it his all and he isn't sort of buy into that banter.
So yeah, even in that there's so much characterization in it.
And I think the hockey is such an important element of it as well because it's the ultimate obstacle for their relationship.
And yet it's also the thing that they both love most.
So it is, so it's such an important element and I'm glad that they didn't just sort of abandon it.
it's actually like a central part of the show because it's a central part of the story in general.
You couldn't do the relationship justice without keeping it as present and as sort of there within the story.
And I think the music does a really good, sort of, it almost adds another element, another character to the scenes in that, you know, in those hockey scenes it's fast-paced, it's
meant to do, it does what it's meant to do in a way.
yeah.
The whole show is very fast paced.
It really does have a neck break pace and not in a bad way.
You're not missing out on anything.
You kind of just want to go back and rewatch it all again.
It has such rewatchability because of it.
And there's just so many elements to enjoy.
And I think because of the pacing, it sort of lends itself to the sport as well, because hockey is a very fast paced sport.
It is literally like a rotation of guys just going like
pointing their way up the ice, trying to score with this little tiny black puck that no one else can see.
And it is such a fast paced game and I like the way that the sort of show reflects that as well.
Like their lives are chaotic because they are hockey players because of what they're doing and it's expressed really well.
I think you'll notice as well that whenever they're having like more intimate scenes, when you're having your sex scenes, things like that, like you will notice the pacing slows
down.
So it does, it slows down because
This is supposed to be the sort of quieter part of their lives.
is the this is the we're taking a moment to enjoy this one.
Whereas the hockey is like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
And that's good.
It gets the blood pumping and it's it's fun and it's fine.
But you can feel the difference in the pacing then whenever the two of them are looking together.
It all slows down a lot more and it's a lot quieter, less shots.
Everything just sort of takes its time.
Yeah, they use more of white pan sort of shots for those kinds of scenes.
The music is due to, if there is any music at all, I can't remember, but it feels more intimate and allows you to sort of tap into that intimacy as a viewer.
yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's really, really effective.
You feel like Jacob Tierney had a real vision for this show and now he's just sort of carried it out to its natural conclusion and he's done an excellent job of it, I think.
So, yeah, yeah, really, really great.
Yeah, I want to talk about that first sex scene or the first scene in which there is sex alluded to it, that shower scene.
I thought, the first time I watched it, because I've had to watch this multiple times, for research purposes of course, but I remember being shocked the first time, but not in a
this is crude kind of way.
I thought, I've not seen this in this way before, and it was refreshing.
Yeah, 100%.
I think whenever that came up, it was like, they're not going to shy away from this.
Like they're going to give this a go.
They're not going to be afraid of driving an audience off just because there is sexually gay, gay explicitly sexual content there, which other shows would have been scared to do,
I think.
And they would have been afraid of the audience reaction.
They would have been afraid of the
online or whatever, or of being accused of being cheap.
because it's so richly shot and it feels very well constructed, the whole thing just works.
And I think because they won't shy away from the sex, you can just sort of trust yourself that they're just really going to go for this journey.
They're really going to take these characters for you and you will get to enjoy that story from the book.
that made it so enjoyable in the first place.
That's the way in which Rachel Root wrote it and the way she wrote the characters and the sex and the intimacy and everything surrounding that and knowing that they are going to
try and do it justice.
It's good to know.
Yeah, for me there was no shame associated with the sex or the sexual content.
In fact, it was out there, it was celebrated, it was in your face as it should be with other types of sex scenes and of heteronormative sort of types of shows and movies and
things like that.
And that to me was the most refreshing part, I think.
It wasn't a, we shouldn't be doing this or, you we're gonna pan away and...
yeah let's allude let's allude to this let's let's uh let leave it unspoken it's like no they don't need to have the unspoken stuff so why don't we get we're you know for the the
girls and the gays come on uh
I think you were talking about sort of the intimate scenes earlier.
And I think, you know, that gym scene very early on in the episode where they're sort of on the bike.
they're fully clothed, nothing is really happening and yet the sexual tension is insane.
Insane.
The way in which every sort of element of the way it's shot is entirely, it's like they're hyper focusing on parts of their, parts of each other's bodies that you can just sort of
see the, the sort of the horniness running through their minds so they can, as they look at each other.
And it's so funny that that scene starts.
with them being really competitive with each other.
They seem to get a thrill out of that.
They enjoy the challenge of each other.
It's called heated rivalry for a reason.
They are actual rivals.
They do compete with each other.
And that element adds a little bit more spice to their relationship, I think.
I think it really comes out in that sort of gym scene whenever they're sort of racing on the bikes together to see who sort of topples off first.
And it's just such a fun way of...
introducing the audience to what their sort of romantic dynamic is going to be about like.
Yeah, and you get those of those those shots where they pan literally from the feet all the way up and you don't see that often with male characters.
No, Whenever they're supposed to be like the object of desire.
So they are.
But whenever it's a man looking at an hour man, you know, shooting it like that, people are, my God.
so he does actually like him.
It's like, my God might surprise you.
Yeah.
You guys also check out guys in that way.
So they're doing that.
You know, it's it's an important part of them sort of.
establishing what this is going to be like, like we're not shying away from this stuff.
Like we're, going in hard here and he's made a way out.
may come along for the ride essentially.
Yeah, there's a nod to an authenticity there.
And even when they pass the bottle between each other, it's the grazing of the hands along the water bottle.
of the hands, the bowling of the pension.
it's that sort of, it's just sheer romance though it is.
It's the, there's a film, old Martin Scorsese film.
I can't remember what it's called now.
But there is this moment where they're in a carriage, it's Michelle Pfeiffer and someone else.
And like the intimacy of like taking her glove off or something like that there and brushing her bare hand and all that stuff.
It's such a small gesture, but there's so much behind it.
So there is, and there's so much sexual tension behind something like that.
And it's just such a great way to build it up.
Like the tension's incredible.
It's everywhere for you to show.
And as a viewer not knowing where this is going, I want that tension.
I want them to build it up.
I want the yearning.
I want the sexual tension, 100%.
completely.
Everyone loves a good yearn.
Like I don't care what people say, everyone loves to yearn.
Because that is like, that's the buildup.
That's what gives the romance meaning then.
It's the not having it and then getting it that sort of gives you the satisfactory payoff.
know, it's, I think a lot of like sort of art house, gay films really play into the sex immediately.
There is no, there's sort of romantic element gets taken out of it.
So often the enjoyment of it, the buildup, the
The good feelings around it, the celebration of it really gets lost a lot of the time, whereas the show doesn't do that.
It enjoys the build up, it enjoys their moments together.
They matter more, so they do, because we've had this time of just anxiety waiting for them to get together.
And I think that just makes the whole thing work.
It's just so much more entertaining that way.
Yeah, and you've got that juxtaposition of the fast-paced sort of hockey scenes sort of contrasted with the slower scenes, these more intimate scenes, even the way they shoot it,
the lighting.
And even the way they shoot some of those more intimate scenes, you know, it's dark.
but it's not pitch black.
There's, especially in that first sort of bedroom scene, that hotel scene, you know, there's an orange-red hue to it.
it's very warm, very...
there's a subtlety to it, like it's not...
it feels very, very intimate.
So it does, and it feels...
it feels real.
Very real.
Like, without going into too much detail, I was getting flashbacks to moments of my life, and I was like, whoa, like this reminds me of a few things.
Yeah, it's the way I think it helps that Jacob Tierney himself is gay.
Like he knows what it's like to have sex.
So that lends itself to it and he's just sort of set the perfect mood, the perfect scene for them to share this like sort of first moment together.
And I think it sort of adds to that sort of romance, the romance between the two of them.
It's so funny watching Shane get all flustered.
He dresses up in a suit before he shows up and it just...
Yeah, there's just something very cute and endearing about it and yeah, I just thought it was so tastefully done as well.
Yeah, and I think what you said really hit the nail on the head there.
Jacob Tierney knows sex, but he also knows gay sex very well.
I mean, to the point where Shane is like, should we talk or something to that effect?
And I'm like, how many of us have said that?
We've all been there.
Exactly.
It's good that he, I think you needed a director who understands that sort of element to people's lives to do justice.
And I think he has, I think he's really done a great job of it and just brought something that is a very, very individual experience and made it sort of shareable to people that
have never
never been through it before or never had gay sex or experimented in that way.
And yeah, I think it's like a little real gods to honest glimpse into what it's like.
Yeah.
And as someone who's read the book, what are those more intimate sexual scenes like in the book?
Are they sort of very graphic?
Are they more sort of subtle?
What's that like in the book?
they're very direct, so they are.
And they don't shy away from really sexual language.
They love to dirty talk, both of them.
So that element also doesn't shy away from.
And it's pretty descriptive.
is like Rachel Reed doesn't shy away from that at all.
It's fully embraced, especially in the sort of earlier scenes.
then you also, as the book goes on,
Their thoughts begin to change whenever they're having sex.
It's no longer about the mechanics of it.
It's about sort of the emotional response they're having to it, the comfort, the feeling of belonging that they get whenever they're having it.
And as the book goes on, you can sort of see it begins to matter more.
It becomes a lot more important and it becomes more emotionally driven.
So it does.
That's their thought process.
It's typically more emotional.
So it does whenever you're getting later on in the book.
And I would say the show's the same, but
Yeah, if you are still looking spicy content, know, the TV show is just copy in the book.
So the books also still there if you want that as well.
Yeah, and I think I like that they don't shy away from the language.
They don't use any very CW Dawson's Creek kind of way.
They don't say like, your manhood or whatever.
And he is like, do you want to suck my cock?
And I'm like, ha, they can say that.
But that works.
It works.
That's what's given it its authenticity.
It's real and it's raw and it's true.
And that's, think if they tried to censor this in any way, would never have worked.
Never.
Because you need to buy in that this relationship is real.
And it feels real when they talk like that, because that reflects real life.
And people don't talk about their manhoods in real life.
That's not a thing.
So yeah, no, it just...
He's just captured really well and he's done a really good job of that element of the show entirely.
And yeah, very good.
What do you think about how this is now going to influence media going forward?
What do think the changes are going to be or do you think it's going change at all?
Mr.
Me wants to think that you're going to get a flurry of these sort of book adaptations now making it into mainstream media, whether it's TV shows or limited series or even movies.
the cynic in me?
Not so sure because you know just last week Boots got cancelled from Netflix.
Yeah, I heard about that, yeah.
and it was a really well done show and you know it wasn't explicit in the same way you know Heated Rivalry is but there was obviously pressure to cancel it despite it doing
really well on the Netflix charts.
Do you think that was politically motivated?
From what I've seen, I was gonna say what I read and that's a lie because I watch TikTok most of the time.
So from what I've seen, yes.
Seems to be the general consensus, yeah.
I so.
I think what they've done is they've been able to capture lightning in a bottle here with Heated Rivalry.
The timing, the source material, the direction, the casting.
I don't know if, you know, it's been option for a season two already, so we know that's coming and I don't know what that looks like.
But I don't know.
As someone who's read the books, what do you think?
I can see it becoming a stepping off point for people to not shy away from showing particular material in shows, especially centre to right, queer sex and things like that
there.
I think this is going to open up a little bit more in that.
I don't think it means that there's going to be a whole influx of MN romance TV shows all of a sudden.
I think people will be less hesitant to take projects like that, which will be a good thing.
But I don't think it'll be so huge that it'll be like a big thing.
Because keep in mind, we did have Heartstopper as well.
And that was an immensely popular show and it gets its full run.
It's getting its full run.
Its story is going to be finished.
But it didn't automatically result in a whole load of queer shows, even though it was immensely popular.
Or you could argue that Heat of Rivalry exists now because that could exist.
you basically...
don't think it'll be like an immediate thing.
think this is just one of those things.
It's going to, it's just an hour building block to, for a time whenever queer stories are told with more authenticity and without shying away and avoid, you know, that sort of
censorship that seems to come with them.
And yeah, I think it's a good sign.
I just don't know if it's, if it's going to change a whole lot all like straight away.
So that's just me trying to be practical with it.
Maybe.
There will be a whole lot of hockey shows that come out because there's plenty of hockey MN romance books and there's a few that I would like to see adapted anyway.
and you read a lot so I trust your judgment on that.
But I think for me what it's done is it's especially through the medium of TikTok is it's exposed how varied the audience for the show is.
yeah, yeah.
I did not think women and cis women or gay women or you know, I did not think women were going to be watching this show.
I don't know why.
Women love a good story about yearning, regardless of who's in it.
That is something I've come to know.
Yeah, there's just something about it, that romantic element that's pining after somebody that just took she in, just got she.
But most M.M.
romance outside of maybe gay men is consumed by women and women of all different sexual orientations, not just
bisexual or lesbian or anything like that, know, straight woman, a lot of them actually write them in romance.
So they do.
They would be the more the larger sort of group of writers.
They would be more so than there would be gay men writing his offers like that.
So it doesn't surprise me, but I'm not surprised other people are surprised because it's such a niche, a niche genre that, you know,
most people would just assume, well, it's gay books, so obviously gay men are going to be the only ones that read them.
And that seemed to be the assumption from, you know, the producers of the show.
They knew they had an audience there.
They just didn't expect to be so wide and varied, which actually perfectly explains why you cannot buy a copy of Heat at Rivalry anywhere in any country.
because they did not anticipate at all for some bizarre reason that when they release their adaptation that people will want to read the book.
That was the probably the stupidest element of this entire show's run is the idea that no one prepared in terms of the book sales and things like that there that people will want
to buy the book.
That's common sense.
That is just pure common sense.
Really marketing needs called out in that one.
But yeah.
I think that's crazy.
think you're right, I think they really fumble there.
I think there was a huge opportunity for, you know, to tie into the TV show and the book, not just the singular book, but the books in the series, to literally hit every single
bestseller list.
I have been trying to get this book, trying to get it used, trying to find it on Audible, which it is, but also find it, you know, e-books, which it is, but I want an actual
physical copy.
So unless you were clued in and you knew about the series before,
You can't get anything until January.
And that's when the show finishes.
where the show finishes.
And that's like, that's crazy to me.
That is such, that's a really, really bad planning.
think, I think that was really bad planning, but it just goes to show that they were just, were not expecting this level of popularity.
They went from an audience of what they were expecting, Free Crave, which is sort of the Canadian streaming service that actually created the show.
So don't let everyone say it's a HBO show.
It's not.
Give the Canadians their juice, give them the flowers.
Basically, they have an audience of five, six million or something like that there.
It's now going out to hundreds of millions because HBO picked it up.
And now it's being opened up to all these other countries as well because everyone wants it.
And basically now it's become a global thing.
It's no longer a little Canadian independent sort of TV show.
It's this monster of a thing.
I just hope for that, they don't pull like a, you know, whenever a sort of niche movie gets made and it's due a sequel and all of a sudden the studio decides to pump a hundred
million into it more than they had previously in the last budget and just turn it into this over, just sort of overindulgence bloated mess of a thing.
I really hope that doesn't happen.
I hope.
They just get them the better budget and let Jacob Tierney finish his story.
But yeah, there's the potential of the show now is just crazy.
So it's gone way beyond anything that they were planning.
And I agree, I really hope that second season doesn't get botched in a way that now they have all this money and this audience and this pressure that they have to represent it in
a certain way.
But I think, I agree, I didn't even know what Crave was before.
I still don't, to a certain extent, and you as a streaming service, sort of service.
And then when like sort of HBO acquired the rights in the US and now Sky has in the UK and...
I think HBO in Australia, New Zealand and all these.
To me, even the rollout of this show shows that there was no plan.
no, there was literally no plan.
mean, like North America was looking to get a release at all in time with the Canadian release.
The lack of, you can tell that there was a complete lack of faith in the show from its producers.
Probably not so much its showrunners and the people that were actually making the project.
But in terms of the, also the limited resources of Crave as well, like they couldn't.
couldn't platform it everywhere, it wouldn't have been practical for them in that financial sense I suppose.
But yeah, could tell it was completely underestimated.
Which is surprising because anyone that watches it would tell you that it would be stupid not to try to market this everywhere because it is so good.
Yeah, so my question is what happens to viewing numbers once the original run from Crave is finished and people are watching it through other means?
What happens when all these other countries start acquiring the rights, start playing it?
Are people actually going to tune in or they're going to be like, I've already seen this.
I think because of its rewatchability, no, I think it will probably have an initial impact for certain places, I think overall, no, I think the numbers are going to be high, people
are going to tune in, they want to rewatch.
And also in saying that, you
People also like to support these shows when they do come out, even if they originally watched it by different means.
Whenever they then get access to it in an official capacity, they want to tune in to watch.
they do, and they want to show that they're supporting the show as well and that they want more of it.
So going through the official channel then to watch it is, you know, the sort of the ideal thing to do.
If you want to see the show again, you want to see it stay popular.
Yeah, so let's start watching it on Sky when it comes in January.
Watch it on Sky.
I have my Sky membership already, so.
Well, and that was one of the things even before it premiered, I was looking up premier dates.
I was looking up what's Crave because I knew it was a Crave original.
So I was already anticipating and I couldn't find it anyway.
I couldn't find a distribution date.
couldn't find an airing date where we are.
And that was frustrating because I'm like, well, people are just going to pirate this.
And that doesn't feed into the actual legitimate numbers that are watching this.
and the knock on effects for their budget and how widespread this actually phenomenon has become, even to the point where we're doing a podcast on it.
Exactly.
I suppose they just sort of have to do it because they anticipate it to have this sort of global wants, this sort of global audience that they completely didn't plan for and didn't
have the budget to plan for.
it's not surprising, unfortunately, that they're now having to sort of scramble at the last minute to try and get this thing out so people can get to watch it wherever they want
rather than take it matters into their own hands.
So yeah, hopefully now the infrastructure will be in place for the second season and then they'll get their wider audience in.
So they will.
Yeah.
And so thinking about the whole episode as a whole, how much of this first episode makes up the the Heated Rivalry book?
That first episode is...
probably like a fuff maybe of the book.
it does take, it's not shaving off material so it's not, it's taking its time.
It's setting in moments and it's giving them a bit more time to work out, you know, character interactions and relationships and things like that.
It's important to keep in mind as well that a lot of the books filled up by their inner monologue.
So rather than the events happening themselves or them talking, a lot of it is them sort of thinking to themselves about the relationship.
So Jacob Therrien's out of the few things in, but he's not taking anything out.
So he isn't, not from what I've seen anyway so far, but he, yeah, he's pacing it really nicely and he's giving extra time to those moments that need it from the book and
expanding on some scenes as well that give better context.
It's also important to note that.
he sort of worked in collaboration with the original author about all this extra stuff and discussed it with her so she was still actively involved which 100 % works because if he
needs to add something in or he feels like someone needs added in she's there to give him the guidance then to well yeah you're right because the character believes this or they do
that so if you had a scene of them doing this then that that would be really good.
I particularly like how Shane's mother
puts in the book there is less pressure from Shane's mother.
They represent him, they represent in like a racial aspect.
Whereas in the show it's actually, it's important.
It actually sort of matters.
So it does.
It's much more present and you get the feeling from Shane that this is a part of his life that stresses him, that he doesn't particularly like.
And
I think it's so interesting that in the book Shane has no interest in becoming like a spokesperson for gay athletes.
He doesn't.
He doesn't want to do that.
Other characters do eventually.
I'll not say more, but he doesn't.
It's not something that he wants.
So having been an advocate in any way is just something he's not interested in.
According to him, he just wants to play hockey.
that's his drive.
So that's a very interesting element that Jacob Tierney has introduced in this one.
It was there but it wasn't as expanded upon as it is in the show and I think that's a very strong point.
think that'll result in something very interesting for his character.
Yeah, and I really enjoyed watching the family dynamics of both the characters.
very different.
So they are.
Like, whilst watching Emma Nerd, I'm thinking of their attachment styles and sort of what the systemic dynamics around them look like.
for me, know, Shane very much, at least from the TV show, represents this sort of very secure type of, having had a secure type of parenting, but with sort of this element of
helicoptering parenting in a way, where there is pressure, where there is sort of...
Yeah, whereas for Rosen or for Ilya, like, my gosh, that's so layered.
There's so much material to work with where you've got the dismissive father, the extorting brother.
Let alone him.
It feels like he's more isolated in the shots where he's talking to his family because he's in a hotel room alone and he's screaming down the phone.
And there's this
real contrast where Shane, when he's presented with his family, is always with both his parents at the lunches.
Yeah.
Shane is there are lots more shots of Shane with other people than there is with Ilya with anyone else.
trying to appreciate like what would it be like to be Ilya?
Well, he's in a foreign country by himself.
He has a horrible relationship with his father and his brother.
He are his only family.
he doesn't seem to have many friends besides our names escaping me now.
Basically his Russian friend and their relationship is somewhat sexual in nature as well so there is almost like there's almost string state a little bit.
That's it and that makes it very interesting because he is basically alone for most of the time whenever he isn't with Shane and
that has to have an impact on him.
it does impact on the way that he behaves and the way that he sort of forms attachments and relationships.
yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
Yeah, and I really like that you noticed the language because in that scene where they're in the sort of that interview scene where they're both present and this interview is
asking both of them questions but the rapid succession of multiple questions that are thrown at, know, Elia's character.
translate it in his head and he's struggling and then Shane jumps in and saves him.
Yeah, and it's the little foot tap, and it's just that little subtle sort of like that gives you these goosebumps that gives you the little giggles like, my God, he actually
cares.
Yeah, it's those little hints that there's some deeper underneath there that Shane sees him.
So he does in a way that other people haven't bothered to.
So that's obviously is going to create a bit of an awkward situation for Ilya because they're both still trying to keep their careers.
In reality, Ilya doesn't have anything bot hockey and his entire life is tied up into it.
it
came out of nowhere and he lost, sort of has possession on his team or you have to stop playing.
He's nothing else, nothing normal.
Yeah, and it's interesting that you say that sort of Shane sort of jumps in for him and in a way I almost feel like Ilya allows him to do that where he doesn't allow that with other
people.
No, because they are rivals in that context.
exactly.
And Ilya is constantly presenting himself as this very confident person, really cheeky character, the one that doesn't really get affected by anybody, he's the one that gives
shit, not takes it.
And Shane, knowing what he's like and knowing his attitude towards him and how he
takes the piss out of him all the time.
When he sees him slipping the confidence starting to fall, he doesn't hesitate to step on.
So he doesn't hesitate to help Ilya keep that front that he presents to people.
And yeah, it's very interesting.
It's an interesting way of playing out their dynamic and drop and hands up what it actually looks like underneath it all.
And it makes me wonder sort of like what's coming next like obviously I want more sex.
Let's be honest
That's what everyone signed up for in the show.
I mean, episode two brings some more, but I also want to see how they develop these characters from a very hook-upy type of interaction and how that plays out into more
intimacy or not, or do they get together or not?
Like, I don't know.
And that's what I'm looking forward to because I can see how that mirrors, you know, a lot of hook-up culture.
Like, you either stay hookup buddies...
exactly.
And for the two of these guys, the stakes are very high.
And in most cases in people's ordinary lives, the most complicated thing that will happen is you end up catching feelings for someone that doesn't have feelings for you.
And obviously there's a lot of heartbreak and hurt and that their problem is so much worse because they do seem to like each other.
There is chemistry there and
there is a completely impractical wall for them to have to claim them if they ever want to try to make that work.
so it's, yeah, it does sort of say something about hookup culture in the terms that, you know, what happens when it turns into something emotional?
What's, what way do you react?
What, what's, how do you approach that then in the end up and how you do it whenever, you know,
you have feelings for that person as well.
How is that developing to something then that's manageable and something that's real?
So yeah, there's plenty of content to pick for you anyway, I can say that much just from watching that first episode.
And there's a lot of sort of subcontext in what Jacob Tierney is doing and a lot of themes that he's introducing that he's given a lot more time to than they got in the book.
And I sort of like that element of it.
Yeah, and I think regardless of what your sexual orientation is, like we've all been in a situationship, and most of us have been in a situationship where one person develops
feelings and one person doesn't.
And I'm looking for that.
I'm looking for what that looks like later on in the series as the episodes develop.
it's the interesting is like we know it's a romance.
know it's centered around these two guys and we know that it goes on for an hour season at least.
So obviously you get the idea that these two are going to like each other at some point and that they cannot already are there.
They're they're doing.
Romantic gestures outside of those private moments already.
And thing at this relationship is.
I don't know how long it's going to stay behind closed doors forever because these two can't really help each other or can't help themselves at this point.
yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out then for the wider story.
Yeah.
Are there any memorable lines from this first episode that sort of stay with you or stick out for you?
can't think of one now at the minute.
I think that opening scene, that whole thing, I thought was brilliant.
think the characterisation in that was excellent.
So amazingly done.
You got so much of their personalities in such a short amount of time with so few lines.
They barely talked to each other.
Barely talked to each other.
And yet you immediately gather their dynamic.
I just thought it was brilliant directing.
Brilliant directing, brilliant writing.
Yeah.
I think for me, the you are having panic attack, Hollander sticks out.
I don't know why.
Like, it's just the line that sticks out to me when I think about this first episode.
that moment where he's starting to freak out.
Yeah, notices.
I thought it was such a sweet moment and I don't know, there was a reciprocity there, was this sort of consideration there and I was like, huh, yeah, he is.
you go in expecting it to be this quick and dirty hookup.
Then you have the sort of emotional consideration, the consideration for his feelings and what he's going through and what's happening and that sort of moment of tenderness.
And it's totally unexpected because Illya is this womanizing, extreme playboy.
having such an affectionate and caring and intimate moment with him that's completely unrelated to the sex, that tells you something about their relationship and how he
actually feels about Shane and where it could possibly go.
So yeah, that's a great moment.
And I'm sure that that will resonate with a lot of people.
yeah, yeah, 100%.
Yeah.
So thinking about the rest, or at least thinking about the rest of the season, as someone who's read the books, what are you hoping they get right?
Or what are you hoping that happens in the second episode that they get right?
So in the second episode...
I want to see more of Ilya's family dynamic.
He has a very complicated relationship with his family and it's always very good.
I always find it's very interesting the way that he reacts to Shane after these moments.
Even when he's feeling down or bad, his initial reaction in the book was always to withdraw, but as time goes on, he sort of turns to Shane rather than away from him.
as their relationship begins to develop.
it's such a, they're like some of my favorite moments.
So that's because it's like, you're finally starting to feel comfortable, like trusting in this person, having this person be your person.
And it's just such a lovely moment.
And it's so subtle and it builds so slowly in the books.
And I hope it's on somewhere here.
Might mean that Ilya is going to be an asshole for next couple of episodes, but that's what you need to do if you want to build tension.
That's not a bad thing though.
you need to build it up.
can't just have everything work out in the start and have no material to end the cover in the end.
There needs to be conflict.
Don't shy away from conflict, it's necessary.
So I think we'll wrap it up there.
That was really good.
It's really good to sort of take the time to discuss it and talk through your thoughts and things like that there and just sort of take the time to actually examine whatever you're
reading.
And I hope you enjoyed it as well.
Obviously me and Silvan had a great time talking.
nonsense for an hour about this amazing show that's taking over the world.
But yeah, we plan to do this weekly.
So if you enjoyed this episode, if you enjoyed our thoughts, then you know, don't be afraid to comment.
What did you think?
Is there something that you want us to cover or any topics you want us to discuss?
Leave them in the comments, like, share, subscribe, do all that.
And yeah, keep an eye out for the next episode.
Whenever we're done that one, we'll send that out as well.
yeah, until next time.