WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600 Hey, this is Mark Butler and you are listening to a podcast for coaches. 00:00:05.905 --> 00:00:08.795 Recently I've been binging a podcast called the Psychiatry 00:00:08.795 --> 00:00:13.555 and Psychotherapy Podcast with a host whose name I believe is Dr. 00:00:13.565 --> 00:00:14.885 David Pewter. 00:00:16.515 --> 00:00:20.915 The episodes I've been listening to so far include interviews with some of 00:00:20.915 --> 00:00:25.485 the creators or people who are closely tied to the creators of some of the 00:00:25.485 --> 00:00:27.675 most famous modalities in therapy. 00:00:28.465 --> 00:00:28.945 , Dr. 00:00:29.185 --> 00:00:33.205 Pewter is interviewing these different practitioners who have spent decades 00:00:33.205 --> 00:00:37.685 developing and refining their different modalities for how they support people. 00:00:39.005 --> 00:00:40.315 It is fascinating to me. 00:00:40.405 --> 00:00:45.055 I highly recommend, if you're a helper of any kind, you'd be well 00:00:45.055 --> 00:00:47.135 served to listen to this podcast. 00:00:47.575 --> 00:00:48.625 Now, here's what's interesting. 00:00:50.725 --> 00:00:53.825 The creator of Motivational Interviewing, I believe his name was Dr. 00:00:53.825 --> 00:00:54.125 Miller. 00:00:54.125 --> 00:00:55.395 We'll just pretend his name was Dr. 00:00:55.395 --> 00:00:55.665 Miller. 00:00:56.375 --> 00:00:56.695 Dr. 00:00:56.695 --> 00:00:57.525 Miller and Dr. 00:00:57.765 --> 00:01:02.105 Pewter were talking about how in the early days after Dr. 00:01:02.265 --> 00:01:05.795 Miller had created Motivational Interviewing, they started to 00:01:05.795 --> 00:01:07.425 do trainings with therapists. 00:01:08.195 --> 00:01:10.555 They wanted to make sure that their trainings were effective. 00:01:11.955 --> 00:01:12.335 Dr. 00:01:12.335 --> 00:01:17.410 Miller said, It was a huge blow to his ego because they discovered through 00:01:17.410 --> 00:01:23.170 follow up research that their trainings basically had no positive impact on 00:01:23.170 --> 00:01:25.500 the therapist's actual effectiveness. 00:01:26.360 --> 00:01:28.350 This surprised and disappointed him because 00:01:29.430 --> 00:01:32.160 he thought he and his team were doing an amazing job. 00:01:32.600 --> 00:01:35.730 The therapists were enthusiastic about what they were learning. 00:01:36.020 --> 00:01:39.870 And then after the training in followup interviews with the participants, the 00:01:39.870 --> 00:01:44.650 participants would describe how much they were enjoying using , these techniques. 00:01:46.570 --> 00:01:47.030 But Dr. 00:01:47.030 --> 00:01:51.330 Milner's team through whatever research they were doing, discovered that 00:01:51.330 --> 00:01:54.860 the effectiveness of the therapists had actually not increased at all. 00:01:55.250 --> 00:01:57.660 First of all, I have enormous respect for this man that he would. 00:01:58.165 --> 00:02:00.855 care whether his trainings were actually having an impact. 00:02:01.865 --> 00:02:05.195 It seems obvious, but it's not something I hear about very often, where people 00:02:05.195 --> 00:02:08.755 say, let's do this training, and then let's make sure it actually helps. 00:02:09.355 --> 00:02:11.265 Well, what they discovered is it didn't actually help. 00:02:11.585 --> 00:02:13.045 So they were back to the drawing board. 00:02:14.215 --> 00:02:14.715 Dr. 00:02:14.815 --> 00:02:16.055 Pewter asks Dr. 00:02:16.055 --> 00:02:19.385 Miller, if your trainings weren't working, then what did you do? 00:02:19.395 --> 00:02:19.785 Dr. 00:02:19.785 --> 00:02:24.525 Miller says, We realized that the only way to help our therapists become 00:02:24.525 --> 00:02:28.105 more effective was by implementing principles of deliberate practice. 00:02:28.935 --> 00:02:31.765 Now, I was a little bit disappointed because in the episode itself, they 00:02:31.765 --> 00:02:34.605 didn't really dig into what that deliberate practice looked like. 00:02:35.525 --> 00:02:38.605 So it left me thinking about deliberate practice as a coach. 00:02:39.975 --> 00:02:43.571 And as I thought about that, my mind flashed to 2004, to 00:02:43.571 --> 00:02:45.771 2008, when I had a sales job. 00:02:46.551 --> 00:02:49.231 And this sales job was over the phone. 00:02:50.526 --> 00:02:55.326 So my job was to call people to engage them in conversation, to get 00:02:55.326 --> 00:02:58.626 a sense of where their motivation was to take a certain kind of action. 00:02:59.336 --> 00:03:04.516 And what that led to was during those, let's say three and a half years, I 00:03:04.516 --> 00:03:10.966 would estimate that I probably did a few thousand hours, let's say 2000 00:03:10.966 --> 00:03:16.116 on the low end, maybe 4, 000 on the high end hours of deep listening. 00:03:18.286 --> 00:03:22.356 Remember sitting in my cubicle at this sales job, you know, had a headset 00:03:22.716 --> 00:03:25.056 and I would put my elbows on the desk. 00:03:25.076 --> 00:03:28.156 I would put my hands over , the ear pieces of the headset. 00:03:28.186 --> 00:03:33.346 I would close my eyes and I would lean down into that cubicle and I would just 00:03:33.556 --> 00:03:39.336 listen to the person who I was supposed to be persuading to take a certain action. 00:03:41.426 --> 00:03:45.056 And I think that over the course of that two to 4, 000 hours, I 00:03:45.056 --> 00:03:49.326 became a very different listener than I would have been otherwise. 00:03:50.096 --> 00:03:52.606 And I think that was deliberate practice. 00:03:53.166 --> 00:03:54.466 Now can I say that with certainty? 00:03:54.466 --> 00:03:56.616 No, no one was measuring my effectiveness. 00:03:56.946 --> 00:04:01.196 There's no before and after I can't give you any data, but my instinct when I was 00:04:01.206 --> 00:04:04.496 thinking about deliberate practice and how it might apply to my coaching practice, 00:04:05.396 --> 00:04:07.446 my mind flashed to that experience. 00:04:09.676 --> 00:04:18.306 I believe listening is the fundamental skill of coaching, deep listening, active, 00:04:18.306 --> 00:04:27.146 listening, listening with the ability to sustain a conversation that Helps the 00:04:27.146 --> 00:04:31.506 person who's talking, in other words, the, the client discover something they 00:04:31.506 --> 00:04:37.736 didn't already know without leading or manipulating them, truly staying in an 00:04:37.786 --> 00:04:42.886 open place, listening deeply so that they find their way to discoveries. 00:04:44.276 --> 00:04:47.596 And I thought, is this a thing that coaches do? 00:04:47.616 --> 00:04:49.916 Is this the thing that coaches know to do? 00:04:50.386 --> 00:04:52.916 If you invited them to do it, would they have any idea how? 00:04:53.896 --> 00:04:56.496 And I thought, well, what's in the, what's in the current environment, 00:04:56.516 --> 00:04:57.546 what do we see in the world? 00:04:57.596 --> 00:05:02.216 And I think what we see in the world is because of social media, like 00:05:02.226 --> 00:05:06.976 YouTube, like Instagram, like Tik TOK, like podcasts, like this very 00:05:06.976 --> 00:05:11.546 thing that I'm doing right now, we're living in a time of answers more than 00:05:11.546 --> 00:05:13.236 we're living in a time of questions. 00:05:14.676 --> 00:05:20.376 I worry that I, and all of you as helpers think that the majority 00:05:20.376 --> 00:05:22.366 of our job is to have answers. 00:05:22.861 --> 00:05:32.141 Insights to be clever, to quote, get a person there, help them see, et cetera. 00:05:33.941 --> 00:05:40.091 And although I absolutely believe that having answers and having insights is 00:05:40.111 --> 00:05:44.151 part of a great helping relationship, call it a coaching relationship, 00:05:44.151 --> 00:05:45.801 call it a therapy relationship. 00:05:46.201 --> 00:05:50.201 I believe that having answers, insights, and yeah, even advice. 00:05:51.011 --> 00:05:54.551 It's very helpful to the client, but in proportion, 00:05:55.681 --> 00:05:59.051 so let me talk for a minute about how I think this can go 00:05:59.051 --> 00:06:00.851 wrong in a coaching interaction. 00:06:01.721 --> 00:06:05.191 Number one, because I think we live in the age of answers as 00:06:05.191 --> 00:06:06.541 opposed to the age of questions. 00:06:07.501 --> 00:06:11.501 I think that when coaches do questions, they're susceptible to attempting 00:06:11.501 --> 00:06:13.561 to be too quick and too clever. 00:06:14.551 --> 00:06:17.401 They think that speed and cleverness are their main job. 00:06:17.741 --> 00:06:21.841 Sometimes I think coaches say to themselves or to their peers, I'm trying 00:06:21.841 --> 00:06:25.921 to figure out what question I could ask that would get us to the heart 00:06:25.921 --> 00:06:28.631 of the matter as fast as possible. 00:06:29.551 --> 00:06:31.161 And I push back on that completely. 00:06:32.401 --> 00:06:38.931 I also worry that sometimes if a coach is in a hurry, because they want to get 00:06:38.931 --> 00:06:43.051 to answers, they want to get to insights and they want to demonstrate cleverness. 00:06:43.896 --> 00:06:49.056 That can lead to interruption of the client, assumptions about the client. 00:06:49.436 --> 00:06:54.266 I think it can create weird power dynamics in the interaction where the 00:06:54.266 --> 00:07:00.566 client is either overtly or covertly being told you are wrong and I am right. 00:07:01.206 --> 00:07:02.826 You should be quiet and listen to me. 00:07:02.826 --> 00:07:07.016 You should do what I say, which means in the worst case scenario, 00:07:07.526 --> 00:07:11.226 if we get this two out of balance, we end up gaslighting our clients. 00:07:12.641 --> 00:07:16.051 And I know gaslighting is a buzzword, but I wouldn't use it 00:07:16.051 --> 00:07:19.111 here if I hadn't observed it in different coaching situations. 00:07:19.891 --> 00:07:27.561 So even sometimes when a coach intends to serve with questions, if there's 00:07:27.951 --> 00:07:32.491 too much impatience or if there's too strong of an agenda in that coach. 00:07:33.191 --> 00:07:37.211 Then I think we wander over into harmful and even unethical territory. 00:07:39.751 --> 00:07:43.371 I think also well intended coaches are often on the hunt for the 00:07:43.371 --> 00:07:45.111 quote, unquote, perfect question. 00:07:46.451 --> 00:07:49.651 Oh, I just want to ask that one question that unlocks the client, 00:07:51.731 --> 00:07:56.601 but my observation is the attempt to find and use the perfect question 00:07:57.741 --> 00:08:04.161 robs you of The opportunity to ask a bunch of imperfect questions and then 00:08:04.161 --> 00:08:09.131 relying on your client's wisdom and insight and trusting that they will 00:08:09.131 --> 00:08:13.461 have the discovery that they need to have as you patiently spend time with 00:08:13.461 --> 00:08:17.161 them, asking all kinds of questions. 00:08:18.781 --> 00:08:21.561 One of my favorite quotes is there's no silver bullet. 00:08:22.761 --> 00:08:25.711 We're going to need lots and lots of lead bullets. 00:08:27.106 --> 00:08:29.006 In other words, there's no perfect question. 00:08:29.756 --> 00:08:34.596 We're going to need lots and lots of imperfect questions in a compassionate 00:08:34.596 --> 00:08:39.526 setting where we're creating a lot of space for that person to explore 00:08:39.566 --> 00:08:41.026 and feel safe while they're doing it. 00:08:41.926 --> 00:08:43.896 And then they will find their way. 00:08:45.366 --> 00:08:49.896 The other thing that I want to mention, because I am afraid that it happens, is 00:08:49.896 --> 00:08:53.976 that I believe that sometimes coaches use questions to lead and to manipulate. 00:08:54.866 --> 00:08:57.776 And in other words, they have a specific idea about what they want 00:08:57.776 --> 00:09:02.196 the client to agree to, or to know. 00:09:02.476 --> 00:09:08.006 And instead of just saying it, they try to ask questions that would lead 00:09:08.006 --> 00:09:09.756 the client to say it themselves. 00:09:11.236 --> 00:09:13.406 That is the definition of manipulation. 00:09:14.836 --> 00:09:18.176 And I understand that it's often well intended, but it's 00:09:18.186 --> 00:09:21.166 manipulative and it hurts trust. 00:09:22.526 --> 00:09:24.266 You will feel it when you do this. 00:09:25.276 --> 00:09:26.076 You will feel it. 00:09:26.946 --> 00:09:32.166 You will feel the wrongness inside you and you'll say, oh, I'm attempting to 00:09:32.166 --> 00:09:34.046 manipulate a certain response here. 00:09:35.076 --> 00:09:38.906 If I want a client to hear me say something, I will just say it. 00:09:40.076 --> 00:09:41.226 And it will sound like this. 00:09:41.286 --> 00:09:42.406 Let me share an opinion with you. 00:09:42.996 --> 00:09:44.226 Here's what I'm thinking. 00:09:44.276 --> 00:09:46.736 You'll say to your client, here's what I'm thinking. 00:09:47.566 --> 00:09:51.956 Let me know whether this resonates at all or to what degree it resonates. 00:09:52.491 --> 00:09:56.161 And then be willing to have your clients say, that actually 00:09:56.161 --> 00:09:57.581 doesn't resonate at all. 00:09:58.211 --> 00:09:59.041 Oh, okay. 00:09:59.321 --> 00:09:59.931 No problem. 00:10:00.191 --> 00:10:03.971 Let's jump back into a line of questioning that will help you find resonance. 00:10:03.971 --> 00:10:08.011 Let's talk about the type of questions and the attitude of questioning that I 00:10:08.021 --> 00:10:10.151 think is actually amazing for our clients. 00:10:11.311 --> 00:10:15.251 As a foundation for this, I want to acknowledge that coaches, because we 00:10:15.251 --> 00:10:19.711 live in this age of answers and not an age of questions, because we live 00:10:19.711 --> 00:10:26.001 in an era where we observe coaching inside certain communities, or we can 00:10:26.001 --> 00:10:31.561 go online and watch YouTube clips of Colin shows where a person calls in and 00:10:31.561 --> 00:10:35.611 talks to a therapist or calls in and talks to a money coach and we get this 00:10:35.611 --> 00:10:41.121 rapid, , presumptive shorthand coaching. 00:10:42.481 --> 00:10:46.361 Where the practitioner is doing most of the talking, the interaction may last 00:10:46.361 --> 00:10:48.691 somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes total. 00:10:50.431 --> 00:10:52.031 And that's, what's being modeled for us. 00:10:53.551 --> 00:10:57.481 I don't think that's the type of questioning that really leads to 00:10:57.481 --> 00:11:02.581 self discovery and insight for a client, but it makes great media. 00:11:04.691 --> 00:11:08.691 And it's a signal to us that if something makes great media, it's 00:11:08.691 --> 00:11:11.001 in service of the lower brain. 00:11:12.986 --> 00:11:16.986 Because it's exciting, it's interesting, it's clever, and it may not be in 00:11:16.986 --> 00:11:25.196 service of the higher brain, which is contemplative, maybe slower to 00:11:25.196 --> 00:11:30.616 process, may have to spend time working its way to connections. 00:11:32.646 --> 00:11:36.356 But because we as , coaches work in this world where most of the coaching we can 00:11:36.356 --> 00:11:39.506 observe falls into that type of coaching. 00:11:40.851 --> 00:11:45.551 We can become persuaded that cleverness and speed and answers are the product. 00:11:48.521 --> 00:11:49.381 And I don't agree. 00:11:50.971 --> 00:11:52.461 I think trust is the product. 00:11:53.451 --> 00:11:56.591 I think time and space are the products. 00:11:57.671 --> 00:12:01.221 So for example, yesterday I started with a new coaching client. 00:12:02.346 --> 00:12:05.926 And it was a weird turn of events because this is a coaching client who had signed 00:12:05.926 --> 00:12:07.306 up for coaching and paid for coaching. 00:12:07.306 --> 00:12:09.906 And we'd never met or had even a single conversation. 00:12:10.186 --> 00:12:16.356 So our very first interaction ever was the client's first paid session. 00:12:17.976 --> 00:12:19.396 Well, by the way, I'm not going to do that. 00:12:19.856 --> 00:12:22.356 I'm just going to credit that session back onto the back of the 00:12:22.356 --> 00:12:24.646 engagement just because I want to. 00:12:25.991 --> 00:12:27.161 I think that's great service. 00:12:27.211 --> 00:12:28.031 You don't have to do that. 00:12:28.241 --> 00:12:36.151 Anyway, all I did for the 55 minutes I was with this new client was ask questions. 00:12:37.871 --> 00:12:38.851 Tell me about this. 00:12:39.981 --> 00:12:40.721 What about that? 00:12:41.931 --> 00:12:43.531 What about this area of your life? 00:12:46.201 --> 00:12:47.921 And all I did was sit and listen. 00:12:49.846 --> 00:12:52.836 I would go a little deeper on certain areas. 00:12:53.206 --> 00:12:56.966 I would, I would do little tests and by tests, I mean I was trying 00:12:56.966 --> 00:13:00.596 to find the emotional edges of what the person was talking about. 00:13:01.026 --> 00:13:05.026 And that might sound like, Oh, with that thing, what would 00:13:05.036 --> 00:13:06.186 be the worst part of that? 00:13:06.196 --> 00:13:07.716 Or what would be the best part of it? 00:13:09.786 --> 00:13:10.936 Let them talk through that. 00:13:11.446 --> 00:13:13.886 Ask questions like, what have been your highest moments? 00:13:13.886 --> 00:13:15.356 What have been your lowest moments? 00:13:15.526 --> 00:13:18.286 And we're just, Asking questions. 00:13:18.726 --> 00:13:21.996 This is the part that matters at the end of the 55 minutes. 00:13:21.996 --> 00:13:24.336 I said, okay, well, you know, we're about out of time. 00:13:24.996 --> 00:13:27.086 Could I give you a little bit of homework before we talk again? 00:13:27.146 --> 00:13:30.596 And the client said, Oh, wow, that really flew by. 00:13:30.636 --> 00:13:33.116 I came to the call today, worried that I wasn't going to 00:13:33.116 --> 00:13:34.726 have anything to talk about. 00:13:36.156 --> 00:13:38.996 I can't believe how fast that time went by. 00:13:40.736 --> 00:13:44.476 That's a signal to me that the person was in something close 00:13:44.476 --> 00:13:46.706 to a flow state as we talked. 00:13:47.471 --> 00:13:49.211 And I never gave advice. 00:13:49.751 --> 00:13:51.511 I never taught any principles. 00:13:52.031 --> 00:13:53.941 I never said, here's what I want you to think about. 00:13:53.951 --> 00:13:55.301 Here's what I want you to see. 00:13:55.591 --> 00:14:00.311 I just kept asking questions and sitting in silence while the 00:14:00.311 --> 00:14:02.021 person considered their answers. 00:14:03.761 --> 00:14:08.831 I believe that may not be the only product that I'm selling, but it's 00:14:08.881 --> 00:14:11.011 part of the product that I'm selling. 00:14:11.731 --> 00:14:16.486 And if you think about your life experience, Ask yourself, honestly, 00:14:16.496 --> 00:14:21.196 how many people in your life are willing to spend that kind of time 00:14:21.196 --> 00:14:23.586 with you and have the ability to do it? 00:14:23.616 --> 00:14:29.836 Well, if you have anyone in your life, who's capable of that and 00:14:29.836 --> 00:14:31.946 willing to do it, you are exceptional. 00:14:34.086 --> 00:14:39.036 Almost every person in our life with whom we have a relationship 00:14:39.546 --> 00:14:43.496 also has some sort of agenda, there's nothing malicious here. 00:14:44.871 --> 00:14:48.001 But in our relationships with our spouses, with our children, with our 00:14:48.001 --> 00:14:53.441 siblings, with our bosses, with our subordinates, with our friends, we 00:14:53.441 --> 00:14:56.681 all have a different kind of skin in the game in those relationships. 00:14:56.681 --> 00:15:03.651 So intentionally or unintentionally , the incentives that we have in those 00:15:03.651 --> 00:15:11.711 relationships will cause us to not hold in a coaching term, hold really clean space. 00:15:13.116 --> 00:15:13.856 And that's okay. 00:15:14.726 --> 00:15:17.616 That's what coaches and therapists can be for. 00:15:18.216 --> 00:15:26.966 So if you are afraid that just listening deeply and just spending time in neutral 00:15:26.996 --> 00:15:32.296 inquiry with your clients, if you think that's not enough, let me assure you, 00:15:32.306 --> 00:15:38.106 it's something they almost never have experienced and don't really have a place 00:15:38.116 --> 00:15:40.206 to go if they want to experience it. 00:15:41.381 --> 00:15:48.361 So as a result, this kind of deep listening experience for the client 00:15:48.501 --> 00:15:55.861 becomes unique and compelling, even when there's no obvious conclusion 00:15:55.881 --> 00:15:57.631 or result from the conversation, 00:15:57.991 --> 00:16:03.791 because the wise coach knows that these kind of interactions where the client 00:16:03.791 --> 00:16:10.001 is able to just listen to questions and explore their own thoughts with curiosity 00:16:10.001 --> 00:16:15.401 and compassion and patience, the questions themselves become seeds that we as 00:16:15.401 --> 00:16:19.701 coaches plant that always bear fruit. 00:16:19.921 --> 00:16:24.331 Yeah, but they don't necessarily bear the fruit that they think they will, and they 00:16:24.331 --> 00:16:28.071 don't necessarily bear that fruit in the time that we think they will or should. 00:16:28.791 --> 00:16:34.131 In other words, if you have a deep listening interaction with a client and 00:16:34.131 --> 00:16:36.981 you finish that interaction saying to yourself, oh, we didn't get anywhere. 00:16:37.221 --> 00:16:42.611 We didn't come to any meaningful conclusion, do not be surprised 00:16:42.611 --> 00:16:45.791 when you meet with the client again and they say something like. 00:16:47.121 --> 00:16:51.001 You know, you asked me this question and it just keeps coming to my mind. 00:16:51.051 --> 00:16:52.751 I just keep thinking about that. 00:16:54.011 --> 00:17:00.471 And here's what I've realized, but it happened hours or days, sometimes weeks 00:17:00.491 --> 00:17:03.521 and months after that seed was planted. 00:17:05.501 --> 00:17:06.961 And the wise coach understands that 00:17:08.321 --> 00:17:12.031 these questions can aspirational, but they don't have to be. 00:17:14.241 --> 00:17:18.611 In other words, as coaches, we love to ask questions , and I, I don't do this 00:17:18.611 --> 00:17:20.081 as much, but I know a lot of coaches do. 00:17:20.081 --> 00:17:21.191 And I think there's power in it. 00:17:21.771 --> 00:17:27.291 Questions like, tell me about your dream life, get in, get into lots of detail. 00:17:27.291 --> 00:17:28.101 Where are you? 00:17:28.111 --> 00:17:29.101 What are you doing? 00:17:29.131 --> 00:17:29.881 What do you own? 00:17:29.881 --> 00:17:30.751 Et cetera, et cetera. 00:17:31.281 --> 00:17:31.701 That's fine. 00:17:31.741 --> 00:17:35.761 I, I, it's not really my style, but it's other people's style 00:17:35.761 --> 00:17:37.331 and I, and I see benefit there. 00:17:39.251 --> 00:17:44.201 I would encourage you to consider that very boring questions are also 00:17:44.201 --> 00:17:50.891 powerful questions like in the last week, what was your favorite moment 00:17:54.301 --> 00:18:00.551 or in the last week, what was the worst moment for you? 00:18:00.561 --> 00:18:03.081 What was the low point of the last week for you? 00:18:05.141 --> 00:18:08.091 We can ask questions that just connect them to their recent. 00:18:08.496 --> 00:18:09.786 Daily experience. 00:18:10.276 --> 00:18:15.966 And we can trust that even a small connection to a small 00:18:15.966 --> 00:18:18.526 experience can reveal something. 00:18:19.936 --> 00:18:27.376 And as we stack up those revelations, we get to insight that in my opinion is 00:18:27.476 --> 00:18:33.836 easier for the client to trust because we ask them apparently boring questions. 00:18:34.746 --> 00:18:37.946 They inquire within themselves about those questions. 00:18:38.706 --> 00:18:42.636 They start to see patterns, they start to see how different 00:18:42.636 --> 00:18:44.216 experiences relate to each other. 00:18:45.006 --> 00:18:47.696 They start to see patterns in their way of being. 00:18:49.716 --> 00:18:52.586 And from there they draw insight and they decide whether they want 00:18:52.586 --> 00:18:54.056 to pursue a different experience. 00:18:55.836 --> 00:19:00.856 We can ask questions that are as mundane as Hey on Sunday nights, 00:19:00.916 --> 00:19:02.286 how do you feel about Mondays? 00:19:02.286 --> 00:19:06.986 And they could say, oh, I hadn't really thought about it. 00:19:07.996 --> 00:19:10.466 You know, actually on Sunday nights, I do feel a little bit of dread. 00:19:11.791 --> 00:19:12.411 Okay. 00:19:12.651 --> 00:19:13.811 Say more about dread. 00:19:16.691 --> 00:19:17.971 Well, I don't know. 00:19:19.271 --> 00:19:22.181 I just don't really look forward to work that much. 00:19:22.541 --> 00:19:23.091 Okay. 00:19:26.191 --> 00:19:30.461 If I ask you to think about work, is the thing you're 00:19:30.461 --> 00:19:33.421 dreading any of the following? 00:19:33.671 --> 00:19:36.362 Is it a particular relationship at work? 00:19:36.362 --> 00:19:41.151 Is it the activity that you engage in at work? 00:19:42.691 --> 00:19:45.371 Or is it something else that I'm not even thinking of? 00:19:47.421 --> 00:19:49.051 You know, I get along pretty well with my boss. 00:19:49.061 --> 00:19:50.351 That relationship's fine. 00:19:52.931 --> 00:19:56.281 The truth is, I'm just so sick of the work that I do. 00:19:56.281 --> 00:19:57.861 It doesn't mean anything to me anymore. 00:19:59.591 --> 00:19:59.981 Oh. 00:20:00.731 --> 00:20:02.591 Did it used to mean something to you? 00:20:02.591 --> 00:20:06.061 Well, yeah. 00:20:06.131 --> 00:20:07.141 I used to love it. 00:20:07.941 --> 00:20:09.301 I used to love the work. 00:20:10.601 --> 00:20:11.141 Okay. 00:20:11.941 --> 00:20:14.501 Do you have any memory of when that feeling started to shift? 00:20:18.061 --> 00:20:22.641 Uh, three years ago, I moved into management, I used to be more of a 00:20:22.641 --> 00:20:24.891 technician and I was thriving there. 00:20:24.891 --> 00:20:26.141 And then I moved into management. 00:20:26.781 --> 00:20:27.391 Okay. 00:20:27.921 --> 00:20:29.031 Why'd you make that move? 00:20:31.031 --> 00:20:33.701 Oh, you know, more money. 00:20:33.701 --> 00:20:34.831 There was more money there. 00:20:34.861 --> 00:20:36.201 There was upward mobility. 00:20:36.231 --> 00:20:37.451 We just had a kid. 00:20:40.661 --> 00:20:40.941 Okay. 00:20:40.941 --> 00:20:41.991 So you see what I'm doing? 00:20:42.911 --> 00:20:44.021 I ask a question. 00:20:44.231 --> 00:20:45.221 They give an answer. 00:20:45.901 --> 00:20:47.131 I ask a followup. 00:20:47.191 --> 00:20:48.191 They give an answer. 00:20:48.531 --> 00:20:53.111 I ask a follow up and as I do that, I am using my coaching 00:20:53.111 --> 00:20:55.261 skills to seek the emotional edges. 00:20:56.271 --> 00:20:57.311 Well, how did that feel? 00:20:57.311 --> 00:21:01.121 Well, what was the best part of that? 00:21:01.461 --> 00:21:02.741 What was the worst part of that? 00:21:04.881 --> 00:21:07.161 What would you have done differently if you could go back? 00:21:07.681 --> 00:21:10.121 Why do you think that would have been better than what you did? 00:21:11.051 --> 00:21:14.181 And you just ask questions and the time does fly by. 00:21:16.461 --> 00:21:17.821 I believe this is. 00:21:18.976 --> 00:21:22.076 The deliberate practice of coaching, or it's one of the ways to do 00:21:22.076 --> 00:21:23.516 deliberate practice and coaching. 00:21:24.536 --> 00:21:29.146 And it starts with taking all of the pressure off yourself to be clever, to 00:21:29.156 --> 00:21:34.026 be insightful, to be quick, to be deep. 00:21:36.136 --> 00:21:38.946 And it's just being professionally curious. 00:21:40.296 --> 00:21:41.476 What do you do for a living? 00:21:41.856 --> 00:21:46.186 I get paid to be curious is a thing we could say as coaches. 00:21:48.416 --> 00:21:53.226 I get paid to stay curious long after a normal person would jump 00:21:53.226 --> 00:21:58.436 to conclusions, insert opinions and start to attempt to manipulate the 00:21:58.436 --> 00:22:00.616 conversation in a way that serves them. 00:22:01.876 --> 00:22:04.216 I get paid not to do that. 00:22:06.126 --> 00:22:08.876 Fantastic career, by the way, an incredible career. 00:22:10.556 --> 00:22:11.806 Here's what I want to suggest to you. 00:22:13.676 --> 00:22:16.566 Would you consider a hundred hours of this kind of practice? 00:22:16.636 --> 00:22:24.636 Um, would you consider going out into the world, going to anyone and 00:22:24.636 --> 00:22:28.346 saying, I am practicing listening. 00:22:29.876 --> 00:22:33.686 Would you be willing to sit and talk with me for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 00:22:33.686 --> 00:22:38.946 60 minutes, whatever amount of time, all I'm going to do is ask you questions 00:22:40.466 --> 00:22:42.226 and let you explore your own answers. 00:22:43.836 --> 00:22:45.986 And by the way, would you mind if I recorded this? 00:22:46.506 --> 00:22:50.606 Because in order to become better at what I do, I want to be able 00:22:50.606 --> 00:22:52.276 to study the questions I ask. 00:22:53.896 --> 00:22:55.426 And whether or not they are helpful, 00:22:57.146 --> 00:23:01.236 if you will do this, you will be a very different practitioner after the 00:23:01.236 --> 00:23:05.206 a hundred hours than you were before the a hundred hours, there's no doubt. 00:23:06.976 --> 00:23:12.956 And as a side note, and I almost hesitate to say this, but in a recent episode, 00:23:13.196 --> 00:23:19.426 I talked about how all we as one on one coaches need is to have a healthy list of 00:23:19.456 --> 00:23:22.506 people who would be happy to hear from us. 00:23:24.991 --> 00:23:30.121 You will find it impossible to do this exercise of a hundred hours of deep 00:23:30.121 --> 00:23:32.571 listening of listening without agenda. 00:23:33.141 --> 00:23:38.271 You will find it impossible to complete that a hundred hours without adding a 00:23:38.271 --> 00:23:42.151 bunch of names to the list of people who would be happy to hear from you. 00:23:42.461 --> 00:23:42.961 Why? 00:23:43.791 --> 00:23:48.941 Because you'll be one of the very few people in that person's life who just. 00:23:49.386 --> 00:23:55.006 Listens, and that makes you attractive and that makes it so when you reach 00:23:55.016 --> 00:24:00.006 back out to them in the future with a newsletter, with a podcast episode, 00:24:00.436 --> 00:24:05.626 with a hi, how are you with a video clip that you think they'd like to 00:24:05.626 --> 00:24:09.356 watch, they will get your message and they'll be happy to receive it. 00:24:09.366 --> 00:24:16.136 And I continue to say that is the foundation of a, an amazingly effective 00:24:16.136 --> 00:24:18.386 marketing strategy for a one on one coach. 00:24:19.716 --> 00:24:22.786 So, of course, I'll say it again, I'll say it a thousand times. 00:24:22.976 --> 00:24:27.016 You do not bring a transactional attitude or mindset into these interactions. 00:24:28.016 --> 00:24:32.496 You don't have to, if you listen like no one else will listen, you 00:24:32.496 --> 00:24:35.926 become one of the most appealing and attractive people in that person's life. 00:24:36.636 --> 00:24:39.136 And going forward, they will be happy to hear from you. 00:24:39.426 --> 00:24:42.406 And as a coach that will lead to everything you ever need it to. 00:24:44.756 --> 00:24:46.706 So deliberately practice listening. 00:24:48.101 --> 00:24:50.941 I think you'll find it pays dividends that you can't even begin to imagine. 00:24:52.741 --> 00:24:53.631 I'll talk to you next time.