WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.238 --> 00:00:07.348 Colin: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:07.348 --> 00:00:08.218 My name is Colin. 00:00:08.418 --> 00:00:11.358 CJ: and I'm CJ and today we're joined by our really good friend 00:00:11.358 --> 00:00:14.568 Lindsay Barrett, and we're gonna talk about her developer journey. 00:00:14.578 --> 00:00:17.993 Lindsay is a team lead now on a technical support team. 00:00:17.998 --> 00:00:23.543 And we met a really long time ago through some meetups in Reno, and I know Colin 00:00:23.543 --> 00:00:27.163 and Lindsay, you've worked together on some stuff before and historically, 00:00:27.163 --> 00:00:32.258 like you also have a podcast episode that you did on Colin's old podcast. 00:00:32.258 --> 00:00:34.088 So if you're interested in that, you can go check it out. 00:00:34.358 --> 00:00:35.378 I dunno if that's still up. 00:00:35.468 --> 00:00:36.038 Colin: What's up? 00:00:36.543 --> 00:00:36.873 CJ: Yeah. 00:00:36.873 --> 00:00:37.863 How you spend your days. 00:00:37.863 --> 00:00:42.213 But I've always really admired Lindsay's grit and bias for action, and so 00:00:42.213 --> 00:00:43.533 we're really just excited to chat. 00:00:44.013 --> 00:00:44.643 And so, yeah. 00:00:44.753 --> 00:00:46.193 Welcome Lindsay to the show. 00:00:46.963 --> 00:00:47.473 Lindsay: Hi, everyone. 00:00:47.473 --> 00:00:48.283 Glad to be here. 00:00:48.710 --> 00:00:52.550 CJ: Before we get into it, just so for framing about when we're recording 00:00:52.550 --> 00:00:57.260 this episode, this is just a few days before the Christmas holiday and 00:00:57.450 --> 00:01:01.170 there is a, like once in a generation storm happening across the us. 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:04.920 I don't know how that's impacting people in Reno, but damn it's, 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:08.370 it's hitting us hard here in the, in the northeast of New England. 00:01:08.820 --> 00:01:12.390 And we're, we live in like this really old house that we just 00:01:12.410 --> 00:01:16.820 moved into, and today we discovered there's a crack in the foundation. 00:01:16.820 --> 00:01:20.210 And so there's water like pouring through the wall in the other room right now. 00:01:20.450 --> 00:01:23.630 , like into a bucket that will we'll, we'll have to figure out what 00:01:23.630 --> 00:01:25.070 to do with that after the show. 00:01:25.555 --> 00:01:28.885 Lindsay: Yeah, so I'm back home for the holidays, so I'm in Phoenix. 00:01:28.945 --> 00:01:30.625 It's 70, sunny. 00:01:30.745 --> 00:01:33.925 I didn't even know, I think I just saw today on the news that there's a storm. 00:01:34.145 --> 00:01:37.925 Colin: I think where our CEO is at, it's like negative 14 C 00:01:38.165 --> 00:01:39.695 whatever, it's eight degrees or so. 00:01:40.235 --> 00:01:45.005 I think what it, what I'm seeing though is it's a lot of like, feels like way colder 00:01:45.005 --> 00:01:47.195 than what it says on the thermometer too. 00:01:47.245 --> 00:01:49.075 Yeah, that's, that's just how it goes. 00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:50.090 CJ: Totally. 00:01:50.810 --> 00:01:57.200 Lindsay, you moved to Reno as like part of taking a new job, or you 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.920 moved to Reno from a really far away, not originally from Arizona, right? 00:02:00.950 --> 00:02:03.770 It was like from, am I guessing Nashville? 00:02:04.010 --> 00:02:04.280 Correct. 00:02:05.045 --> 00:02:05.435 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:02:05.435 --> 00:02:10.115 So gosh, I moved to Reno almost, yeah, in 2015. 00:02:10.445 --> 00:02:12.425 And it was just after college. 00:02:12.425 --> 00:02:15.815 So I was looking at like, all right, what's the next adventure? 00:02:15.820 --> 00:02:17.165 Where's someplace I could live? 00:02:17.585 --> 00:02:22.205 And I kind of heard about Reno through a job board from where my college is based, 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:24.515 which was in around Knoxville, Tennessee. 00:02:25.145 --> 00:02:28.505 And so I was ready for the next thing, and I always wanted to learn to snowboard. 00:02:28.505 --> 00:02:30.575 And I heard, oh, Reno's close to Tahoe. 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:32.070 I said, all right, perfect. 00:02:32.460 --> 00:02:36.180 And then I, so I was looking at Reno, but then also Colorado and I thought, 00:02:36.210 --> 00:02:40.350 what has more commerce, you know, where I could maybe get a, a job? 00:02:40.350 --> 00:02:40.860 And I learned more. 00:02:40.865 --> 00:02:43.800 Colorado was a lot of, unless you were in Denver, everything 00:02:43.805 --> 00:02:45.840 else was just the ski town jobs. 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.050 So I heard about Reno and I kind of think of it as like I hit the 00:02:49.140 --> 00:02:50.880 jackpot at just the right time. 00:02:50.970 --> 00:02:53.760 2015 was when kind of Tesla just came in. 00:02:54.090 --> 00:02:54.960 A lot of other big. 00:02:55.375 --> 00:02:59.245 Distributors and the downtown of Reno was getting rebuilt. 00:02:59.695 --> 00:03:02.875 So yeah, I moved right outta college, drove across country. 00:03:03.830 --> 00:03:07.280 It was just kind of like out of ignorance of just like, okay, let, let me just 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.160 go see, and I had a job lined up. 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:14.420 It was with the local Girl Scouts in town, so working for a nonprofit. 00:03:14.810 --> 00:03:17.390 I was gonna be a part of their communications team. 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:20.780 So yeah, that's kind of what brought me out to Reno. 00:03:20.785 --> 00:03:24.380 And it's kind of how I started to get involved in tech from moving to 00:03:24.380 --> 00:03:28.850 a brand new city and like looking for ways to meet people and make friends. 00:03:29.691 --> 00:03:34.826 CJ: I love that because I think that a lot of people are really comfortable where 00:03:35.056 --> 00:03:39.056 they're at and they're, they might be frustrated or depressed where they are and 00:03:39.056 --> 00:03:43.736 they feel, they don't feel like motivated to make a really significant change 00:03:43.736 --> 00:03:46.316 and just uproot and move really far. 00:03:46.616 --> 00:03:51.036 And so I think that it takes a lot of guts to do something like that. 00:03:51.446 --> 00:03:53.316 And, and also, I. 00:03:54.321 --> 00:03:56.901 At, at that transition point, like right when you're coming out of 00:03:56.901 --> 00:03:59.541 college, it seems like it might be a little bit easier, right? 00:03:59.541 --> 00:04:03.591 But like still, it takes a lot of guts to go somewhere where you don't know a bunch 00:04:03.591 --> 00:04:06.711 of people and you don't have this giant network of friends and you haven't sort of 00:04:06.711 --> 00:04:09.381 built up this established life somewhere. 00:04:09.621 --> 00:04:13.711 And so at that time when you were moving, did you know that you wanted 00:04:13.711 --> 00:04:17.661 to start getting into tech or was that something that came later? 00:04:18.361 --> 00:04:19.306 Lindsay: It's actually a funny story. 00:04:19.336 --> 00:04:22.006 So my college, they were. 00:04:22.214 --> 00:04:24.284 You know, there was small Christian college, about 00:04:24.289 --> 00:04:26.784 2000 kids in East Tennessee. 00:04:27.174 --> 00:04:30.864 And when I, I remember like when I started college there, they had kind of 00:04:30.864 --> 00:04:33.834 just announced that they were getting rid of their computer science program. 00:04:34.284 --> 00:04:36.354 I remember thinking like, oh, that's kind of a bummer. 00:04:36.354 --> 00:04:37.984 I would've liked to learn more about that. 00:04:39.119 --> 00:04:42.369 And so I was, I was on track to do graphic design and communications 00:04:42.369 --> 00:04:46.299 major, and then my last semester I learned that they were bringing 00:04:46.299 --> 00:04:48.279 the computer science program back. 00:04:48.669 --> 00:04:51.549 I thought, wow, like I really wanna take that class, like 00:04:51.554 --> 00:04:52.749 they're doing an intro class. 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:57.969 And so I started signing up, but then, The, the professor said, 00:04:57.969 --> 00:05:01.089 Hey, we're already filled up, like you can't join the class. 00:05:01.629 --> 00:05:02.529 And I was like, ah. 00:05:02.559 --> 00:05:05.109 But I messaged him like multiple times like, Hey, I'd really like 00:05:05.109 --> 00:05:07.059 to join, you know, what can I do? 00:05:07.059 --> 00:05:08.889 And he's, no, not at all. 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.519 And now, like looking back, if I'd known what I know now, I said I'm 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:16.299 taking the class and I'm gonna just bring my own computer kind of deal. 00:05:16.329 --> 00:05:17.109 Cuz that was a problem. 00:05:17.109 --> 00:05:18.399 There wasn't enough computers. 00:05:18.729 --> 00:05:21.129 So that was in the back of my mind, like right before I was. 00:05:21.809 --> 00:05:22.529 Graduate. 00:05:22.589 --> 00:05:25.379 And then I was also hearing like, okay, yeah, you can have a job in 00:05:25.379 --> 00:05:29.189 graphic design, but you have to know some, some front end work. 00:05:29.549 --> 00:05:33.299 So that was starting to really intimidate me of like, I want to get a job in graphic 00:05:33.299 --> 00:05:36.149 design, but I don't know how to code yet. 00:05:36.869 --> 00:05:39.809 So I ended up, you know, graduating and then it was still 00:05:39.809 --> 00:05:40.619 like on the back of my mind. 00:05:40.619 --> 00:05:44.039 I'm interested in computer science, I'm interested in coding, but I 00:05:44.039 --> 00:05:47.189 didn't have like the resources at the time to, to learn that or even 00:05:47.189 --> 00:05:49.619 know where to start back in 2015. 00:05:50.449 --> 00:05:52.794 , but that's why when I moved to Reno, I was so excited to learn, Hey, 00:05:52.794 --> 00:05:56.784 there is a developer community here, and I can start getting involved. 00:05:57.761 --> 00:05:59.916 Colin: Yeah, that's interesting what you bring up about computers. 00:05:59.921 --> 00:06:03.996 Like, I remember when I was at college, like we had to go to a computer lab and 00:06:03.996 --> 00:06:06.816 we had computers that we had to work on. 00:06:06.846 --> 00:06:10.996 And it's interesting to see how the shifts of access to resources, 00:06:11.036 --> 00:06:14.906 you know, even things like advent of code and the free code camp and 00:06:14.906 --> 00:06:17.396 things like these have kind of given. 00:06:18.376 --> 00:06:20.356 You know, you could do this on an iPad now, right? 00:06:20.356 --> 00:06:23.476 You don't have to use, you could do have code spaces. 00:06:23.476 --> 00:06:24.676 You can do Code Sandbox. 00:06:24.676 --> 00:06:29.146 It doesn't have to be this like thing that you have to have resources. 00:06:29.146 --> 00:06:32.236 You might still have to have someone who introduces it to you, right? 00:06:32.236 --> 00:06:33.076 Get that itch. 00:06:33.496 --> 00:06:37.276 But I think, you know, even 2015 was not that long ago, and it's so cool 00:06:37.276 --> 00:06:39.076 to see how much has changed in that. 00:06:39.436 --> 00:06:42.406 You know, the pandemic is a little bit to blame as well, where we're kind of 00:06:42.411 --> 00:06:44.596 forced to go online for most things. 00:06:44.646 --> 00:06:46.896 I think like even the meetups and things have started to 00:06:46.896 --> 00:06:48.546 come back too, which is good. 00:06:48.551 --> 00:06:53.526 People are getting curious and kind of like, okay, staying at home was great 00:06:53.526 --> 00:06:57.861 for a while, but now it's time to get out and brush up those skills, see people 00:06:57.861 --> 00:07:01.401 again talk about projects that we're all working on and all that kind of stuff. 00:07:04.276 --> 00:07:09.346 CJ: You were studying graphic design and you felt like you needed to know 00:07:09.346 --> 00:07:13.696 front end stuff, was that sort of, because the job descriptions you were 00:07:13.701 --> 00:07:15.736 looking at had front end requirements. 00:07:15.786 --> 00:07:17.886 I mean, would is that, do you think that's still true today? 00:07:17.886 --> 00:07:20.886 Like if you wanted to be a graphic designer, that you have 00:07:20.891 --> 00:07:22.296 to know front end development? 00:07:23.706 --> 00:07:26.376 Lindsay: So, so at the time it was definitely very heavy on like the job 00:07:26.376 --> 00:07:29.166 descriptions, you know, that nervous of like, I have to have the job right out 00:07:29.166 --> 00:07:30.996 of college, and that's what I was seeing. 00:07:31.641 --> 00:07:36.771 Must know HTML JavaScript, and that was super intimidating and just not 00:07:36.771 --> 00:07:38.811 seeing a basic graphic design job. 00:07:39.261 --> 00:07:41.451 Now looking back, I think it's changed a lot. 00:07:41.451 --> 00:07:44.361 I think people are starting to see like the importance of having 00:07:44.361 --> 00:07:48.591 specialization where it doesn't have to lean so heavy on knowing how to code. 00:07:48.591 --> 00:07:52.971 And I think we're seeing that more because of, we have product designers now where 00:07:52.971 --> 00:07:57.291 they just want to know the interaction and just somebody being very specialized 00:07:57.296 --> 00:07:59.301 in making the best user experience. 00:07:59.691 --> 00:08:04.041 So I believe it's moving away from having to know so much code and just having, 00:08:04.611 --> 00:08:06.561 you know, specific people for the jobs. 00:08:06.951 --> 00:08:08.061 So I think that is better. 00:08:08.171 --> 00:08:11.921 Now that I'm more on the track of like tech support development, I've kind 00:08:11.921 --> 00:08:16.391 of put that way behind me, the graphic design and product product designer. 00:08:16.871 --> 00:08:20.801 But yeah, it'd be interesting to know, you know, exactly how the 00:08:20.801 --> 00:08:22.181 job descriptions have changed. 00:08:24.036 --> 00:08:26.616 CJ: So Lindsay and I worked together, and the last time we were working 00:08:26.621 --> 00:08:31.146 together, you were an individual contributor on the support team, and 00:08:31.176 --> 00:08:33.036 now you're a leader of that team. 00:08:33.306 --> 00:08:34.896 What was that transition like? 00:08:34.986 --> 00:08:40.116 And anyone else who's considering moving from an individual contributor to a lead, 00:08:40.146 --> 00:08:43.626 what are some things that they might need to take into consideration or think about? 00:08:43.626 --> 00:08:45.620 And , what was that like? 00:08:46.385 --> 00:08:46.805 Lindsay: Yes. 00:08:46.810 --> 00:08:51.425 I moved in from being a tech support engineer, individual contributor to 00:08:51.425 --> 00:08:55.895 a team lead, which has been about the past year, and I'm finding it's 00:08:56.125 --> 00:09:01.205 a completely different frame of mind, different work responsibilities, and 00:09:01.205 --> 00:09:04.945 I kind of realized, you can really succeed as individual contributor and 00:09:04.945 --> 00:09:08.575 being the best, you know, agent that's really strong at troubleshooting, 00:09:08.845 --> 00:09:14.525 knowing code helping solve customers problem, but being a manager or a team 00:09:14.525 --> 00:09:19.460 leader is totally different and I'm, I still like find myself very surprised 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:22.820 by that cuz you kind of think, oh, if I'm really good at being a support 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:24.950 agent, I'll be a really good manager. 00:09:25.520 --> 00:09:30.470 And I don't know if those always co coordinate as, yeah, the main difference 00:09:30.475 --> 00:09:35.865 I'd say is the responsibilities and like, how good are you at processes? 00:09:35.865 --> 00:09:39.285 And making really clear cut direction for your team and then 00:09:39.285 --> 00:09:40.905 also helping coach your team. 00:09:41.295 --> 00:09:45.345 It seems like good managers are very people oriented, but they're also like 00:09:45.405 --> 00:09:51.525 extremely type A and organized and yeah, that's been like a, a transition for me of 00:09:51.525 --> 00:09:55.515 like, I can be slightly those things, but I feel like to be the best, you have very, 00:09:55.575 --> 00:09:58.125 to be very focused on process and data. 00:09:58.665 --> 00:10:03.225 So for somebody who's wanting to transition from individual contributor to 00:10:03.225 --> 00:10:08.065 a manager, I think it really goes back to like really project-based work where you 00:10:08.065 --> 00:10:13.685 can show I can lead projects, I can change processes I can involve team members and 00:10:13.685 --> 00:10:17.285 like move things along so it becomes, you know, less individual thinking. 00:10:17.285 --> 00:10:20.945 But goal thinking and a process I think is a huge part of that. 00:10:21.335 --> 00:10:25.255 So it's an ongoing, like it definitely challenges you in totally new ways of 00:10:26.165 --> 00:10:30.420 thinking which has been good, but it's definitely pros and cons, I find. 00:10:31.983 --> 00:10:36.753 Colin: As you move up in levels, you start to move a little bit away from self 00:10:36.753 --> 00:10:40.473 to team, to department to company goals. 00:10:40.473 --> 00:10:44.643 And like you said, then you switch over to that manager track and now you're 00:10:44.648 --> 00:10:48.671 not necessarily doing the individual work as much as one-on-ones and 00:10:48.731 --> 00:10:50.531 player coaching and things like that. 00:10:50.531 --> 00:10:53.231 And I don't do that in my current role that we have great 00:10:53.581 --> 00:10:54.491 engineering managers for that. 00:10:54.901 --> 00:11:00.911 So I'm more focused on being able to not only get my work done, but also make sure 00:11:00.916 --> 00:11:06.731 prs are closed and help get other projects done so that our team is successful. 00:11:06.791 --> 00:11:10.021 Which sounds like there's a lot of similarity there with you, Lindsay. 00:11:10.071 --> 00:11:13.916 As you're working with your team, are you helping them with their career goals or 00:11:13.921 --> 00:11:16.746 is it more on the work side of things? 00:11:16.746 --> 00:11:19.656 Like are you doing some of that, engineering management, personal 00:11:19.661 --> 00:11:22.796 development stuff as well and like helping them figure out where they want to go or 00:11:22.796 --> 00:11:24.506 how does that kind of pencil out for you? 00:11:25.275 --> 00:11:26.755 Lindsay: in some ways, like I know. 00:11:27.985 --> 00:11:31.010 person on my team, they have like a specific goal of where they're headed. 00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:35.820 And so I aim to help facilitate that of finding ways they can 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:37.800 get the skills that they need. 00:11:38.010 --> 00:11:42.000 So sometimes it's, you know, being an advocate for them to take certain courses. 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:46.530 I also push, like for project-based work of, okay, how can you show 00:11:46.760 --> 00:11:47.840 the skills you wanna learn? 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:51.290 Like how can you show actual output that you can do those skills. 00:11:51.710 --> 00:11:55.990 So it'll be the way I mentor or coach is through project-based examples. 00:11:56.270 --> 00:11:59.060 I think that will help them take them to the next level. 00:11:59.750 --> 00:12:02.740 But yeah, the main difference with management is it's a totally 00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:03.860 different way of thinking. 00:12:03.860 --> 00:12:09.245 Where as an individual contributor, it's very easy to be self-oriented and like, 00:12:09.275 --> 00:12:12.935 I'm measured for my goals only, and I don't have to think about anything else. 00:12:12.935 --> 00:12:14.885 I just gotta be a good person to work with. 00:12:15.425 --> 00:12:20.755 But as a manager, you understand more of like kind of how difficult it can be to be 00:12:20.755 --> 00:12:25.561 a manager because you're no longer looking at yourself for performance, you're being 00:12:25.681 --> 00:12:27.571 measured on other people's performance. 00:12:28.141 --> 00:12:30.961 And that's really like kind of a hard shift. 00:12:31.501 --> 00:12:35.733 But then I think with the proper training and learning how to coach people, you can 00:12:35.733 --> 00:12:37.983 get fulfillment in helping others succeed. 00:12:37.983 --> 00:12:39.603 And if they're not doing well, you don't take it. 00:12:39.963 --> 00:12:43.923 So personally, you just see it as like, how can I help push this along? 00:12:43.983 --> 00:12:45.183 What's going on with them? 00:12:45.783 --> 00:12:49.083 So yeah, I aim to like help push everyone along in their career. 00:12:49.263 --> 00:12:51.813 But it's also still like being a first time manager. 00:12:52.143 --> 00:12:53.793 I'm still figuring it out. 00:12:53.883 --> 00:12:56.703 Still trying to take more coaching and training. 00:12:56.703 --> 00:13:00.623 There's been a lot to it that I'm very painfully learning 00:13:00.623 --> 00:13:01.863 it feels like in some ways. 00:13:02.953 --> 00:13:06.538 CJ: It sounds like and also intuitively, there's a massive component to 00:13:06.538 --> 00:13:09.358 this that involves empathy for all of the people on your team. 00:13:09.718 --> 00:13:12.688 And I think both of you, Lindsay and Colin, have like really, 00:13:12.688 --> 00:13:15.988 really high eq and I would love to report to either of you. 00:13:15.988 --> 00:13:19.863 So I think, you know, like good on you for being good people. 00:13:20.103 --> 00:13:25.533 And also personally, I mean, I think that it sounds really scary. 00:13:26.448 --> 00:13:29.658 For your success to depend on the success of others. 00:13:30.018 --> 00:13:34.373 So me personally, as an individual contributor, I think maybe it's out 00:13:34.373 --> 00:13:39.438 of fear of being measured based on the success of people that I'm managing, 00:13:39.678 --> 00:13:40.818 that I don't wanna be a manager. 00:13:41.328 --> 00:13:44.568 I think it would be terrifying to say like, okay, now, like the team's. 00:13:45.383 --> 00:13:47.843 You know, I'm accountable for the team's output. 00:13:47.903 --> 00:13:51.563 So is that something that you were worried about when you went into 00:13:51.563 --> 00:13:54.773 management, or you were excited about? 00:13:55.203 --> 00:13:59.373 How do you, how do you deal with that sort of responsibility without having 00:13:59.373 --> 00:14:01.923 that autonomy to just go and do the thing? 00:14:02.628 --> 00:14:02.908 Lindsay: Mm-hmm. 00:14:03.388 --> 00:14:06.688 . I think I kind of had like a naive assumption going in that kind of 00:14:06.688 --> 00:14:09.028 everyone's working to do their best. 00:14:09.028 --> 00:14:10.528 They already have the skills. 00:14:10.768 --> 00:14:14.818 It's just how can we take the team and the work we do to the next level. 00:14:15.598 --> 00:14:17.268 So it's been an adjustment to be like, okay. 00:14:18.698 --> 00:14:22.708 how do I work with every individual team member and make them succeed? 00:14:23.008 --> 00:14:25.768 And it does get different of, you know, you want to like have one 00:14:25.768 --> 00:14:28.168 meeting and then that touches everyone. 00:14:28.168 --> 00:14:31.348 But you have to be so know everyone's an individual and works 00:14:31.353 --> 00:14:32.698 and thinks in different ways. 00:14:33.148 --> 00:14:37.888 So the work is kind of, it's almost how many team members you have, 00:14:37.888 --> 00:14:40.108 it's the individual to every person. 00:14:40.468 --> 00:14:45.118 So it can be so much work to, to influence someone to help them to succeed. 00:14:45.828 --> 00:14:46.498 But it is scary. 00:14:46.498 --> 00:14:51.208 But I think I've kind of, I've gotten past that of like, okay, I have to 00:14:51.208 --> 00:14:55.978 push somebody to make myself, you know, be measured and reported correctly. 00:14:56.268 --> 00:15:00.308 And I can see it as like, it's a job, we're doing our best. 00:15:00.308 --> 00:15:03.028 And then if somebody's struggling, they're not doing so on purpose, 00:15:03.028 --> 00:15:05.458 they just don't have the tools or the skill, the skillset yet. 00:15:05.458 --> 00:15:08.938 And as a manager, it's my job to help them get those tools, have that training 00:15:08.938 --> 00:15:11.008 time, and so they can move forward. 00:15:11.681 --> 00:15:12.161 Colin: That's awesome. 00:15:12.161 --> 00:15:12.431 Yeah. 00:15:12.431 --> 00:15:16.736 And for you, like what sorts of resources and coaches and things? 00:15:16.906 --> 00:15:21.336 Invaluable for you to go from where we all first met to where you're at today. 00:15:21.606 --> 00:15:25.866 Have there been any communities or I know for the software developers, there's 00:15:25.871 --> 00:15:30.396 like, lead dev has been really useful for that for me, but what sorts of 00:15:30.456 --> 00:15:31.686 things have you found useful for that? 00:15:33.221 --> 00:15:33.421 Lindsay: Yeah. 00:15:33.421 --> 00:15:37.321 So in this support world, I've found a few communities out there 00:15:37.321 --> 00:15:42.181 to, you know, help managers and directors and heads of support. 00:15:42.541 --> 00:15:47.581 So one that I really kind of plug away is a site called Support Driven, and it's 00:15:47.581 --> 00:15:53.071 a Slack community where it's pretty mind blowing, but they have whole dedicated 00:15:53.341 --> 00:15:57.091 different Slack channels dedicated for certain, certain support issues. 00:15:57.091 --> 00:15:59.281 So it could be like, how do I. 00:16:00.176 --> 00:16:02.876 Staff up my support team. 00:16:02.876 --> 00:16:05.786 How do I know, what do I measure on to know I need more people? 00:16:05.846 --> 00:16:07.256 So some hiring stats. 00:16:07.556 --> 00:16:10.196 It also has like leadership ID ideas. 00:16:10.796 --> 00:16:12.006 It also they have. 00:16:13.061 --> 00:16:15.826 just a plethora of different, whatever problem you're facing in 00:16:15.826 --> 00:16:19.156 support, whether it's not hiring enough people, motivating people, 00:16:19.486 --> 00:16:22.066 training people just a great resource. 00:16:22.096 --> 00:16:26.026 So that's been something I've really leaned on cuz I didn't have, you know, 00:16:26.026 --> 00:16:30.076 like the exact training of like, okay, how do I know the exact support data I 00:16:30.076 --> 00:16:32.746 need to know how to run a support team. 00:16:33.586 --> 00:16:34.396 So that's been great. 00:16:34.756 --> 00:16:37.566 I also lean on a lot of like old mentors of mine. 00:16:38.006 --> 00:16:43.586 When CJ and I worked together, we had a great support manager, Amber Deal. 00:16:43.826 --> 00:16:47.811 She's now like a senior manager, support manager at GitHub, and I'm kind of 00:16:48.051 --> 00:16:52.221 leaning, I lean on her a lot to kind of help guide me with her experience. 00:16:52.221 --> 00:16:53.811 We've become really close friends. 00:16:54.441 --> 00:16:57.381 And then most recently, I'd say my work has really supported me in 00:16:57.381 --> 00:16:59.481 getting proper management training. 00:16:59.721 --> 00:17:02.701 We just went through a great program through growth space. 00:17:02.706 --> 00:17:07.321 It's called a new manager training, and that I kind of can look back now and see 00:17:07.321 --> 00:17:11.181 like, oh, I was really shooting in the dark of what I thought a good manager was 00:17:11.381 --> 00:17:16.991 but actually getting the proper coaching and going through a group led program, I 00:17:16.991 --> 00:17:18.941 like my confidence has completely shifted. 00:17:18.941 --> 00:17:22.841 So I think that there's a lot of stats out there that say like, new managers 00:17:22.846 --> 00:17:27.041 fail because they don't have the proper training and it makes sense. 00:17:27.101 --> 00:17:31.961 And I, so I really encourage like support companies or all companies in general 00:17:31.961 --> 00:17:36.311 to heavily invest in their management training and especially new managers. 00:17:37.416 --> 00:17:38.926 CJ: What kind of stuff do they teach in there? 00:17:39.176 --> 00:17:43.011 I would wonder what a curriculum would look like for manager training. 00:17:43.091 --> 00:17:44.621 Having no training ever. 00:17:44.621 --> 00:17:47.401 I mean, I've managed some people, but never, yeah, never 00:17:47.401 --> 00:17:48.151 had any official training. 00:17:49.171 --> 00:17:51.871 Lindsay: Yeah, so it was, it was a really cool program through growth 00:17:51.871 --> 00:17:56.011 space and kind of how I boil it down to of like what the whole purpose, it was 00:17:56.016 --> 00:18:01.681 like five week program and meeting just every week in a, a group led session. 00:18:02.161 --> 00:18:06.271 But what it really came down to is like how to respect and listen to people. 00:18:06.841 --> 00:18:11.011 It sounds so basic, but like that's the goal as a manager. 00:18:12.021 --> 00:18:12.106 Okay. 00:18:12.106 --> 00:18:13.936 How do I really listen? 00:18:13.936 --> 00:18:17.266 Be an active listener, and instead of being a person who's just like, 00:18:17.296 --> 00:18:20.596 okay, tell me more, tell me your problem, and then I'll get that 00:18:20.596 --> 00:18:23.086 information so I can solve it instead. 00:18:23.086 --> 00:18:26.476 You're always coming at a mindset of, okay, I'm listening, 00:18:26.686 --> 00:18:28.066 but how do I flip this back? 00:18:28.066 --> 00:18:33.406 So, that your direct report feels like they have power to help make changes. 00:18:33.616 --> 00:18:37.696 And so you learn like how to coach people by asking open-ended questions, 00:18:37.996 --> 00:18:41.986 by always putting it kind of on them to get their information. 00:18:41.986 --> 00:18:47.356 And you find by doing that, by asking them questions, you're respecting them. 00:18:48.226 --> 00:18:50.806 So that's was one big part of the training. 00:18:51.106 --> 00:18:53.926 Also, we talked about like influence of how do you. 00:18:54.361 --> 00:18:57.181 You know the work you're doing if you wanna move up and scale 00:18:57.181 --> 00:18:59.911 up, like how to build influence. 00:19:00.301 --> 00:19:04.591 So that was some good information and then also like how to, if you are having 00:19:04.591 --> 00:19:08.916 a support problem, knowing who's in your network, who you can work with other 00:19:08.916 --> 00:19:10.841 managers, how you can get help that way. 00:19:11.441 --> 00:19:15.281 So, so it was a great initial training and I wanna do more of them cause I 00:19:15.281 --> 00:19:16.811 think it really changed the way I think. 00:19:17.553 --> 00:19:17.913 Colin: Awesome. 00:19:17.918 --> 00:19:20.993 Yeah, I actually just picked up I haven't, it's coming in the mail today. 00:19:20.993 --> 00:19:25.673 I think the Engineering Management for the Rest of Us from Sarah Dresner. 00:19:26.083 --> 00:19:28.413 And she's the director over at Google. 00:19:28.423 --> 00:19:31.273 I don't really have aspirations towards going the engineering 00:19:31.273 --> 00:19:35.453 management direction, but I think just learning and reading on this stuff 00:19:35.513 --> 00:19:40.320 like helps us be better ics working with our managers to some extent. 00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:44.770 When you're a team lead, you're doing some blended player coach role where 00:19:45.030 --> 00:19:48.700 you're still doing prs, you're still doing customer support, potentially 00:19:49.090 --> 00:19:51.160 you're doing those escalations, I imagine. 00:19:52.055 --> 00:19:56.155 When, when someone wants to speak to the manager, literally . So that's one I'll 00:19:56.155 --> 00:19:58.235 have to report back on how that book is. 00:19:58.235 --> 00:19:59.615 I'm a big fan of Sarah. 00:19:59.825 --> 00:20:01.475 She's a good follow on Twitter too. 00:20:01.915 --> 00:20:05.215 CJ: When I think about the best managers that I've ever had, they 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:10.945 often were doing some sort of like Jedi mind tricks where that were. 00:20:11.905 --> 00:20:14.815 Totally, exactly what you're talking about, Lindsay, and now that I realize 00:20:14.815 --> 00:20:17.875 that that's like taught to people in management training where they'll 00:20:17.875 --> 00:20:20.695 just sit there and listen to you and then sort of reflect it back to you. 00:20:20.935 --> 00:20:21.745 I'm like, okay, yeah. 00:20:21.750 --> 00:20:25.795 The best managers I've ever had, I would come to them frustrated and then walk 00:20:25.795 --> 00:20:31.645 away feeling like totally heard and supported and unblocked in ways that I 00:20:31.645 --> 00:20:34.945 could actually probably unblock myself or maybe something wasn't a big issue. 00:20:35.830 --> 00:20:39.310 Maybe there was a person that I didn't know about that I needed to connect 00:20:39.310 --> 00:20:43.090 with, or maybe there was a resource I hadn't heard about, or, you know, just 00:20:43.090 --> 00:20:46.570 an out-of-the-box idea about, okay, just use your education budget that 00:20:46.570 --> 00:20:50.050 you have over here to go buy this book that is gonna teach you about X and 00:20:50.050 --> 00:20:52.060 then come back and we'll talk about it. 00:20:52.105 --> 00:20:53.695 It is absolutely an art. 00:20:53.725 --> 00:20:57.835 I've had managers who were really bad and they just kind of showed up and told 00:20:57.835 --> 00:21:01.945 you what they were gonna do for the week and then left . But yeah, definitely 00:21:01.950 --> 00:21:05.475 the best, the best managers have that sort of respect and listening that 00:21:05.475 --> 00:21:07.890 you're talking about, so that's cool. 00:21:09.110 --> 00:21:09.905 Lindsay: Yeah, it really shifted. 00:21:09.905 --> 00:21:14.315 I, it kind of clued in on me of, okay, whenever I haven't had good managers, 00:21:14.315 --> 00:21:16.055 and it's typically, you know, someone. 00:21:16.790 --> 00:21:19.820 It's either just a readout where there is no action or like kind of 00:21:19.820 --> 00:21:25.130 follow up, or it's a manager who's just, Hey, do this, do that, and like 00:21:25.340 --> 00:21:26.900 kind of know like, what do you think? 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:28.550 Or how would you tackle this? 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:33.530 So yeah, it really shifted my perspective of always having that open-ended 00:21:33.530 --> 00:21:38.180 question and empowering the person to think, okay, actually I do have more 00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:41.030 in my tool set to tackle this myself. 00:21:41.030 --> 00:21:43.760 And yeah, I, I can take on what I need. 00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:47.030 And I think through the management training was really pushing on like, 00:21:47.930 --> 00:21:51.740 what's the point of a open-ended or of a yes or no question, 00:21:51.830 --> 00:21:53.330 saying like, did you do this? 00:21:54.260 --> 00:21:58.180 Do it this way it really kind of just stops the conversation right 00:21:58.180 --> 00:22:00.700 there instead of actually having engagement in the back and forth. 00:22:01.180 --> 00:22:04.900 So I highly recommend that of, ask the open-ended questions and 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:08.140 push that person to, to solve it themselves in a way themselves. 00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:09.600 Colin: Yeah. 00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:12.740 And you've been learning a lot of like management styles and 00:22:12.770 --> 00:22:14.330 management training, things like that. 00:22:14.360 --> 00:22:18.060 Are there like technologies that you're also still keeping up with? 00:22:18.070 --> 00:22:19.150 Are you still in the code? 00:22:19.150 --> 00:22:22.390 Are you still needing to keep up with all the different things that are, you 00:22:22.390 --> 00:22:24.640 know, inexplicably coming out every day? 00:22:24.770 --> 00:22:28.020 Lindsay: That's another like interesting part about being in management, being 00:22:28.020 --> 00:22:31.980 in tech support, like constantly staying up to date on the new thing, 00:22:32.010 --> 00:22:33.600 like what my company's building. 00:22:34.080 --> 00:22:38.520 So right now I've been pushing as far as like new skills to learn with my team. 00:22:38.520 --> 00:22:42.150 I know recently we're moving on to Snowflake, so I'm gonna have 00:22:42.150 --> 00:22:43.590 to really do some digging there. 00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:46.200 But yeah, we're kind of constantly staying up to date on like, 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.480 okay, new API authentication. 00:22:49.140 --> 00:22:52.740 Our company's building secure measures each day, and so my team needs to 00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:57.870 be on top of how we talk to outside developers about what we're building. 00:22:58.140 --> 00:23:02.850 So I find like a lot of API training and different ways to authenticate. 00:23:03.510 --> 00:23:07.448 And then, yeah, most recently, one challenge I'm finding is having my 00:23:07.448 --> 00:23:12.458 agents be really skilled in like pulling database reports, so some MongoDB 00:23:12.458 --> 00:23:16.028 training and then Snowflake most recently. 00:23:16.538 --> 00:23:19.658 And yeah, so we really plug into what already exists out there. 00:23:19.748 --> 00:23:23.363 I don't wanna be in a place where like, I'm directly teaching, but instead of 00:23:23.363 --> 00:23:27.203 giving like the resources to the sites and then we have shared sessions, cuz I 00:23:27.203 --> 00:23:30.953 find it so important, like I think what really makes the difference in learning 00:23:30.953 --> 00:23:35.243 new skills, you kind of can't just simply like assign a course and that's it. 00:23:35.783 --> 00:23:39.923 You have to start there as a base, but then have like a one-on-one 00:23:40.373 --> 00:23:44.003 kind of training session where it does feel like open-ended. 00:23:44.003 --> 00:23:46.163 And if you're stuck, you have someone to go to. 00:23:46.763 --> 00:23:48.683 So I remember even Colin and I worked together. 00:23:48.933 --> 00:23:53.773 He did an awesome job when I was learning about REST APIs and I was really getting 00:23:53.773 --> 00:23:56.503 stuck on just the authentication portion. 00:23:56.803 --> 00:23:58.123 And you see a lot of like. 00:23:59.323 --> 00:24:02.383 Just date out there where they'll just show it a screenshot and they'll 00:24:02.383 --> 00:24:05.593 show you, okay, you request it this way, you get something sent back. 00:24:05.683 --> 00:24:09.223 And like the picture is just so, what in the world does this mean? 00:24:09.553 --> 00:24:12.733 But then when you sit down with somebody and you're doing it yourself, it's just 00:24:13.033 --> 00:24:17.203 light bulb click of like, this is so much simpler than the course makeup looks, 00:24:17.593 --> 00:24:19.383 than some guy who's prepared the course. 00:24:19.713 --> 00:24:22.383 So I find the one-on-one is really important, and that's made all the 00:24:22.383 --> 00:24:27.023 difference in my team of not just shucking them off to take a course, but following 00:24:27.048 --> 00:24:29.838 it up with the one-on-one training and pairing them with a team member. 00:24:30.908 --> 00:24:32.648 Colin: Yeah, and you've learned these things, right? 00:24:32.648 --> 00:24:34.428 You also are learning them. 00:24:34.428 --> 00:24:39.018 It's not just, Hey, go learn this thing and let me know how it goes. 00:24:39.488 --> 00:24:42.658 So you have a little bit of a advantage there. 00:24:42.708 --> 00:24:45.688 I think that's an issue as we grow in tech is that some people 00:24:45.688 --> 00:24:46.948 lose that beginner's mind. 00:24:46.998 --> 00:24:49.548 It's important to know where they're coming from when you're learning 00:24:49.548 --> 00:24:52.928 a new thing and when you look at authenticating against an a p I, like 00:24:52.928 --> 00:24:55.238 there's how many flavors of OA these days. 00:24:55.588 --> 00:24:58.138 And you may not, when you're beginning, you don't know why. 00:24:58.258 --> 00:24:59.578 And maybe I don't know that. 00:24:59.578 --> 00:25:00.478 I still know why. 00:25:00.868 --> 00:25:04.278 But it, you know, you still have to know all those different things and, and 00:25:04.278 --> 00:25:07.368 it's good that you are able to support your team in, in learning those things. 00:25:07.368 --> 00:25:11.653 And I have some sympathy for anyone who's dealing with API products. 00:25:11.653 --> 00:25:15.533 Both of you, you know, have that where standards are changing around you, 00:25:15.533 --> 00:25:19.873 on top of your team are changing the literal product that you offer people. 00:25:19.873 --> 00:25:23.213 Have you had to do any like big deprecations, have you had a V2 00:25:23.218 --> 00:25:26.773 API or getting rid of certain authentications and things like that? 00:25:27.283 --> 00:25:30.703 Lindsay: Yeah, we actually, we had a huge migration process where 00:25:30.703 --> 00:25:32.843 we're moving from V2 to a v1. 00:25:33.343 --> 00:25:38.048 end Point and yeah, the, the hard part, it wasn't so much with like communicating 00:25:38.048 --> 00:25:42.038 with the developers, it's the customers of like, trying to make them make sense 00:25:42.038 --> 00:25:43.748 cuz we needed them involved in some way. 00:25:44.378 --> 00:25:48.608 But yeah, mostly I find a lot of it just comes to, so being intimidated and 00:25:48.608 --> 00:25:52.358 trying to push things off, you really have to have like a roll up your sleeves 00:25:52.358 --> 00:25:56.918 mentality and like, I'm gonna sit down, I'm gonna learn this myself if I can't 00:25:56.918 --> 00:26:01.118 get other people involved as a manager, I really wanna know how this works. 00:26:01.808 --> 00:26:04.508 So I can inform my team, so be in the loop. 00:26:04.508 --> 00:26:07.328 But yeah, that was a big recent component. 00:26:07.658 --> 00:26:08.948 I had to take my team through. 00:26:09.668 --> 00:26:12.398 CJ: That is so important, having a roll up your sleeves mentality, and I 00:26:12.398 --> 00:26:17.048 think that's what differentiates the more senior folks to the more junior 00:26:17.048 --> 00:26:22.208 folks is that as a senior person, It is expected that you can be dropped 00:26:22.208 --> 00:26:26.218 into any technology or framework or whatever, and that you'll figure it out. 00:26:26.873 --> 00:26:30.113 Like you can, you have the skills to go figure out what you don't 00:26:30.113 --> 00:26:31.913 know and how to learn something. 00:26:31.913 --> 00:26:34.733 Whereas someone who's more junior, maybe if they're just a year outta college or 00:26:34.733 --> 00:26:37.523 something, if they encounter something that they don't know, maybe they're 00:26:37.523 --> 00:26:39.533 gonna be really, really intimidated. 00:26:39.533 --> 00:26:42.293 And it sounds like you've got a system set up so that you can support 00:26:42.298 --> 00:26:47.853 all of your reports and also you've kind of like built up the confidence 00:26:47.853 --> 00:26:50.553 and the courage to go into anything and be like, I can figure this out. 00:26:50.553 --> 00:26:54.813 Like I can learn this and come back to the team and work together with other 00:26:54.813 --> 00:26:58.663 people to figure out how to support it and talk about it to external devs. 00:26:59.203 --> 00:27:02.173 And I, it's like such an important skill. 00:27:03.158 --> 00:27:08.078 If you're out there listening and you're nervous about starting a new job 00:27:08.078 --> 00:27:12.638 because it uses a programming language you've never used, or it requires some 00:27:12.638 --> 00:27:16.388 understanding of a system that you've never used, I would say just go for it 00:27:16.568 --> 00:27:19.028 and figure it out as you, as you go. 00:27:19.608 --> 00:27:25.018 , I, I mean, I think As a little side tangent, I saw today that Google is 00:27:25.558 --> 00:27:30.208 doing this like red alert because of chat G P T, where they're like, oh gosh, 00:27:30.213 --> 00:27:34.498 like chat G p T is gonna take over and no one is gonna Google things anymore. 00:27:34.503 --> 00:27:39.688 But I think between chat G P T and Google and Stack Overflow and your 00:27:39.688 --> 00:27:44.668 network, and if you wanna reach out to, to us on Twitter, come hit us up and 00:27:44.668 --> 00:27:46.668 we can together figure anything out. 00:27:46.948 --> 00:27:50.338 One thing that we were chatting about recently was a Django app, or 00:27:50.668 --> 00:27:52.168 you were spinning up a Django app. 00:27:52.168 --> 00:27:53.698 Was this like a side project? 00:27:53.698 --> 00:27:55.258 What, like, can we, can we get into that? 00:27:55.258 --> 00:27:57.898 What were you building and, yeah can you tell us more about that? 00:27:58.458 --> 00:28:01.648 Lindsay: Yeah, so I've been really taking on like learning Django 00:28:02.478 --> 00:28:03.923 and I have a project in mind. 00:28:03.923 --> 00:28:06.863 I wanna build like a backpackers app where you can kind of connect 00:28:06.863 --> 00:28:08.663 with friends and plan trips. 00:28:09.123 --> 00:28:13.353 Learning a new framework has just been really enjoyable. 00:28:13.743 --> 00:28:17.433 I found the level of confidence of like learning something new and when 00:28:17.433 --> 00:28:21.033 it actually clicks and you kind of realize like I was putting off learning 00:28:21.033 --> 00:28:25.293 something for so long cuz I thought it was way more difficult than it was. 00:28:25.633 --> 00:28:28.783 Like with my management, the team I manage, like when I've been pushing 00:28:28.783 --> 00:28:32.353 them to learn new skills and take on new things, like the level of 00:28:32.358 --> 00:28:36.823 confidence I've seen them go through of like starting kind of from really 00:28:37.793 --> 00:28:42.088 just base skills, but like them being so devoted to their work and learning 00:28:42.088 --> 00:28:45.498 and then putting it into practice, the confidence has gone through the roof. 00:28:45.828 --> 00:28:49.968 And I'd say most recently I'm dealing with quite a bit of raise request from 00:28:50.148 --> 00:28:52.243 the confidence, which really surprised me. 00:28:52.543 --> 00:28:56.388 But I get where they're coming from where I kind of lean on to anybody 00:28:56.388 --> 00:29:00.843 in support, like I really want to learn the tech and the hard skills, 00:29:00.843 --> 00:29:04.113 like soft skills are so important and that is always gonna be the majority 00:29:04.113 --> 00:29:08.723 of work, but the level of confidence you get, like as a support agent or as 00:29:08.728 --> 00:29:10.693 anyone starting out, it's so important. 00:29:11.383 --> 00:29:15.203 So I have been pushing that with myself of learning a new Django app, putting 00:29:15.203 --> 00:29:18.893 it into practice, and yeah, it's been taken off, so it's still in the works. 00:29:18.893 --> 00:29:23.653 CJ builds a really cool tutorial of connecting Django and Stripe and so 00:29:23.893 --> 00:29:26.923 I've been learning more about Stripe, so I kind of put the two together and 00:29:27.163 --> 00:29:31.983 yeah, paired well, I really recommend William Vincent's Django books. 00:29:32.013 --> 00:29:37.188 Like he has like a very special skill set of taking difficult 00:29:37.188 --> 00:29:39.708 content and gearing it for beginners. 00:29:40.018 --> 00:29:44.998 I think that can be a challenge to find somebody who's a really strong writer 00:29:45.058 --> 00:29:47.398 that can help beginners coming out. 00:29:47.548 --> 00:29:48.148 Colin: That's cool. 00:29:48.298 --> 00:29:50.977 I was gonna ask earlier, I think you just answered it a little bit. 00:29:50.977 --> 00:29:54.747 Where does that confidence come from or how can you mentioned, EQ and 00:29:54.747 --> 00:29:58.287 confidence and I, I do believe that there's skills that you can develop. 00:29:58.287 --> 00:30:03.832 I think a lot of people, especially white men in tech, we get this wrap for like 00:30:03.832 --> 00:30:08.992 having undue confidence and ego and all this stuff, but I think a lot of it tends 00:30:08.997 --> 00:30:12.982 to be putting in the reps and like just doing the thing over and over again. 00:30:12.982 --> 00:30:17.152 Like if you make a thousand API requests, you're gonna see a lot of stuff, right? 00:30:17.152 --> 00:30:20.422 You're gonna see errors, you're gonna see different authentication types, you're 00:30:20.742 --> 00:30:24.352 gonna see stuff so that when it comes up and you're doing support, you're gonna be 00:30:24.352 --> 00:30:26.002 like, okay, I know what this is and I can. 00:30:26.647 --> 00:30:29.437 Pretty good confidence using your own product, right? 00:30:29.437 --> 00:30:33.067 Like using your own API if, or using if your company doesn't have 00:30:33.067 --> 00:30:37.357 an api, just using the product will make you more confident in it. 00:30:37.417 --> 00:30:40.217 And I would say like just building a Django app. 00:30:40.217 --> 00:30:40.727 Great example. 00:30:41.347 --> 00:30:41.617 , right? 00:30:41.617 --> 00:30:45.637 I know CJ, you flip between lots of languages and frameworks in 00:30:45.637 --> 00:30:49.507 your job, and so you probably see more than most in terms of like, 00:30:49.537 --> 00:30:51.217 okay, in Ruby it looks like this. 00:30:51.217 --> 00:30:52.537 In Python, it looks like this. 00:30:52.857 --> 00:30:55.702 But I think doing that exercise, I personally, I don't know how 00:30:55.762 --> 00:30:59.422 to best describe it, but like I kind of, it's like a spidey sense 00:30:59.422 --> 00:31:01.042 of like when something's wrong. 00:31:01.042 --> 00:31:04.402 I have some ideas on where to go look, but those are based on 00:31:04.962 --> 00:31:06.582 things that I've seen before. 00:31:06.642 --> 00:31:06.912 Right. 00:31:06.912 --> 00:31:09.912 And you don't develop that unless you do it a lot. 00:31:10.322 --> 00:31:14.637 So I think it doesn't mean that you have to be building a side project for 00:31:14.637 --> 00:31:16.557 backpackers on your nights and weekends. 00:31:16.557 --> 00:31:19.257 I think that's cool because, because you're so interested in that, 00:31:19.257 --> 00:31:21.787 you're gonna stick with it and you're gonna go through with it. 00:31:22.027 --> 00:31:24.907 I know a lot of people coming out of boot camps are always trying to figure 00:31:25.857 --> 00:31:27.722 out what they should build next. 00:31:27.782 --> 00:31:32.012 And for me, I always have so many ideas on things I could be building, 00:31:32.012 --> 00:31:35.432 so that's never been an issue, but it's like, find something you really love. 00:31:35.722 --> 00:31:39.932 We had a friend, in the early days of the iOS app ecosystem, he built a 00:31:39.932 --> 00:31:44.917 knitting app for keeping track of yarn schemes and in terms of like SKUs and 00:31:44.967 --> 00:31:49.227 lot numbers because I guess it's a very niche problem, but when you buy yarn 00:31:49.227 --> 00:31:53.567 of certain colors, they're all dyed differently and so you need to keep track 00:31:53.567 --> 00:31:57.677 of these SKUs and like it was featured by Apple, he made, you know, it's hard to 00:31:57.677 --> 00:32:01.817 make money with apps today, but back then like was able to actually make a pretty 00:32:01.817 --> 00:32:07.247 good living as a indie iOS developer and it came from people around him really 00:32:07.252 --> 00:32:09.287 having this issue and he stuck with it. 00:32:09.932 --> 00:32:13.012 So always finding a little project that is a passion of yours, 00:32:13.012 --> 00:32:16.132 like pairing backpacking in tech is, is a great way to do that. 00:32:16.542 --> 00:32:19.137 And then you can go backpacking and get away from your computer too. 00:32:19.197 --> 00:32:19.827 So that's good. 00:32:21.212 --> 00:32:26.792 CJ: As a lead who is working with a bunch of support engineers, one of the 00:32:26.792 --> 00:32:32.342 challenges in my experience is keeping all of the engineers engaged and feeling 00:32:32.347 --> 00:32:34.142 like they're growing their own career. 00:32:34.147 --> 00:32:38.597 And so by using a learning process, like, oh look, you're learning 00:32:38.597 --> 00:32:40.767 Django, or you're learning Mongo, or you're learning whatever. 00:32:41.407 --> 00:32:45.662 That is one way to make everyone feel like you're growing, you're growing your 00:32:45.662 --> 00:32:47.282 career, and you're growing your skillset. 00:32:47.752 --> 00:32:53.087 I know that you've used Rails before, and so going from zero to one is always the 00:32:53.087 --> 00:32:57.617 hardest, and then going from one to two, I think people are often surprised by like, 00:32:57.647 --> 00:33:03.507 oh, actually there's all of these things that I can draw lines between the old 00:33:03.507 --> 00:33:07.347 version that I know and this different, maybe it's a different language, different 00:33:07.347 --> 00:33:10.927 framework, different whatever, but like, okay, this is how it works in Django 00:33:10.947 --> 00:33:12.387 and this is how it worked in rails. 00:33:12.387 --> 00:33:15.357 And that also can kind of build up your confidence. 00:33:15.867 --> 00:33:20.787 And this actually came up in our last episode too with Eric, and that was that. 00:33:21.152 --> 00:33:23.672 When you're exploring front end frameworks that you might want to 00:33:23.672 --> 00:33:27.662 use in 2023, go out and make a to-do list or make something very simple. 00:33:27.872 --> 00:33:31.652 Just do the hello world in a bunch of different ones to figure out kind 00:33:31.652 --> 00:33:32.972 of which direction you want to go. 00:33:33.722 --> 00:33:38.342 In this case, it sounds like, you know, if you're an early career individual 00:33:38.342 --> 00:33:41.942 contributor that's doing, you know, support engineering or even if you're 00:33:41.942 --> 00:33:45.152 just, you know, junior dev at some company and you want to increase your 00:33:45.152 --> 00:33:51.242 confidence in those skills, go out and try to build a bunch of things, so, Yeah. 00:33:51.242 --> 00:33:55.742 Are there other resources that you like to share with people who are 00:33:55.742 --> 00:34:00.582 on your team that you know, that are looking to, to grow their skills? 00:34:01.176 --> 00:34:04.866 Lindsay: I'll kind of find a way if I can get like a developer involved at some 00:34:04.866 --> 00:34:09.416 point, like a special request of, Hey, can you, can we schedule a training of 00:34:09.416 --> 00:34:15.026 something that special skill and have them lead that talk with the support engineers, 00:34:15.026 --> 00:34:19.656 I find that's really engaging for my team of they kind of see like the developers 00:34:19.656 --> 00:34:22.916 as the gods of the company in a way. 00:34:22.916 --> 00:34:26.786 And so if they find like that one-on-one time of just getting more touchpoints 00:34:26.786 --> 00:34:30.266 on maybe something they're learning on a course, but then also hearing like 00:34:30.266 --> 00:34:34.456 a developer speak about it and see how it applies to the work they're doing. 00:34:35.006 --> 00:34:38.076 CJ: I think maybe something to throw out there is that developers 00:34:38.076 --> 00:34:41.016 are not gods . Like there's nothing special about a developer. 00:34:41.376 --> 00:34:44.646 I think if, if a team is trying to like pick up dev skills, 00:34:44.646 --> 00:34:47.556 then pulling in someone who knows those skills is, is great. 00:34:47.556 --> 00:34:52.966 But I think support engineers don't often get the credit that they due because 00:34:52.966 --> 00:34:56.266 they're the ones who are there through the holidays answering questions, and 00:34:56.266 --> 00:35:00.206 they're the ones who are there balancing and juggling 20 different questions from 00:35:00.206 --> 00:35:04.356 developers who are using, coldfusion over here, WordPress over there, and 00:35:04.356 --> 00:35:08.036 Ruby over here, JavaScript over there, and trying to figure out how to do 00:35:08.316 --> 00:35:09.936 this really weird thing with the api. 00:35:09.936 --> 00:35:11.826 I just wanted to throw that out there. 00:35:11.826 --> 00:35:14.856 That the skills that these support engineers have to be able to balance 00:35:14.856 --> 00:35:19.566 and jump around in context switch is really, really valuable and. 00:35:20.391 --> 00:35:20.661 Yeah. 00:35:20.661 --> 00:35:23.191 Circling back to all of those raise requests that you're 00:35:23.196 --> 00:35:24.531 getting, give them the raise! 00:35:24.531 --> 00:35:25.701 What does that process look like? 00:35:25.701 --> 00:35:28.581 If someone comes to you and says, I want a raise, you've gotta go, do 00:35:28.581 --> 00:35:31.941 you just go to your manager and say, okay, all these people want raises. 00:35:32.301 --> 00:35:34.981 Let's do, let's do raises, or do you have to put a packet together? 00:35:35.841 --> 00:35:37.111 Does it happen on a certain cycle? 00:35:37.621 --> 00:35:40.411 Lindsay: Yeah, it's kind of still being built out, I'd say. 00:35:41.191 --> 00:35:43.891 For where I'm currently at, but definitely come down to, okay, 00:35:44.071 --> 00:35:46.051 what's the reason for the raise? 00:35:46.051 --> 00:35:47.671 Like what work have you shown? 00:35:47.891 --> 00:35:51.921 It's not just, hey, it's, it's been a while, but I wanna have confidence as a 00:35:51.921 --> 00:35:55.941 manager where when I'm taking it to the next level, I can vouch and say, yes, 00:35:55.941 --> 00:35:57.561 this person is contributing in this way. 00:35:58.461 --> 00:36:02.346 here's some cool recent projects that really transformed our team. 00:36:02.676 --> 00:36:06.246 So yeah, just taking, kind of the previous work they've done, they're also how 00:36:06.251 --> 00:36:10.056 they're measuring and support, that's very big of their individual stats, 00:36:10.061 --> 00:36:13.931 how much work they're doing, if they have good customer satisfaction scores. 00:36:14.231 --> 00:36:17.081 And then from there, taking it to upper management and making that 00:36:17.081 --> 00:36:21.761 a pretty simple process through just like yes or no, HR approves. 00:36:21.761 --> 00:36:24.181 As long as our budget allows for that. 00:36:24.231 --> 00:36:24.606 CJ: Very cool. 00:36:24.996 --> 00:36:28.086 Do you have control over the budget at all or? 00:36:28.956 --> 00:36:29.206 Lindsay: No. 00:36:29.226 --> 00:36:33.071 So that's kind of support directors and then VP of support. 00:36:33.581 --> 00:36:36.711 We are in tune of our hiring needs if we need this many number. 00:36:36.711 --> 00:36:41.991 Making sure that's matches up with what the budget is saying, but kind 00:36:41.991 --> 00:36:45.801 of, yeah, keep it basic as far as like motivating the team, the actual work 00:36:45.801 --> 00:36:50.631 we're doing, our KPIs and everything else can be like a little bit higher level. 00:36:51.186 --> 00:36:51.486 CJ: Cool. 00:36:52.406 --> 00:36:55.316 Colin: It's something we didn't touch on yet, but I think you mentioned it 00:36:55.316 --> 00:37:00.776 in working with the developer side of the house is how often do you work with 00:37:00.806 --> 00:37:05.246 the development team in terms of like you are receiving all of this feedback 00:37:05.246 --> 00:37:08.956 about the product, the api, you might be identifying bugs, there's probably 00:37:08.956 --> 00:37:13.656 a whole lot of EQ on the customer side, but then there's this whole dance of 00:37:13.656 --> 00:37:17.741 working with and verifying and saying, here's reproducibility of bugs. 00:37:17.741 --> 00:37:19.661 I know you're not necessarily, you're not qa, right? 00:37:19.661 --> 00:37:24.861 But your support engineers are kind of the ones in the field seeing these firsthand. 00:37:25.071 --> 00:37:27.531 I think solutions engineers also see this a lot too. 00:37:27.531 --> 00:37:29.781 They're like, we have to use this api. 00:37:30.001 --> 00:37:33.091 Can you please just add this pagination token or something, 00:37:33.091 --> 00:37:34.951 just so that our lives are easier? 00:37:34.981 --> 00:37:39.866 How much of that is part of your job, part of your team's job, and the pushback 00:37:39.871 --> 00:37:43.191 there in terms of getting developer time sometimes can be challenging. 00:37:43.551 --> 00:37:45.151 How does that look for you guys? 00:37:47.186 --> 00:37:51.406 Lindsay: If say there's an issue with like our API documentation and for whatever 00:37:51.411 --> 00:37:53.156 reason it got out there, it's not clear. 00:37:53.556 --> 00:37:56.466 If we're dealing with a developer who's having an issue. 00:37:57.046 --> 00:37:57.801 with an endpoint. 00:37:58.071 --> 00:38:00.421 It's a process of still, the ticket coming in. 00:38:00.811 --> 00:38:04.531 Our team pushes back we found, we're not gonna get any action from developers 00:38:04.536 --> 00:38:07.051 unless we have the curl request. 00:38:07.051 --> 00:38:08.311 What's the actual problem? 00:38:08.911 --> 00:38:11.791 So I've built up the confidence with my team to push back with 00:38:11.791 --> 00:38:13.741 developers and say, we need this. 00:38:14.021 --> 00:38:14.741 Please send it. 00:38:16.126 --> 00:38:16.646 Simplified manner. 00:38:17.066 --> 00:38:20.546 So yeah, so we, you know, we take in once we know exactly what they're doing and 00:38:20.546 --> 00:38:23.936 that's really built up the confidence of my team of, hey, we recognize 00:38:23.936 --> 00:38:25.916 exactly what a developer's telling us. 00:38:26.336 --> 00:38:29.846 They take that curl, can reproduce it and say, yes, I'm having the same 00:38:29.846 --> 00:38:32.936 problem, or no, I'm not the, the customer just needs to be educated 00:38:32.941 --> 00:38:34.756 on how to authenticate usually. 00:38:35.386 --> 00:38:38.046 And then we, you know, make a self-service model of, okay, if it is 00:38:38.046 --> 00:38:42.351 an issue, we go through the typical flow of reporting a Jira, doing that 00:38:42.351 --> 00:38:45.731 route, but then there's always those gray areas sometimes of, okay, it's 00:38:45.736 --> 00:38:49.091 not a genuine issue, but something's just not clear of how it works. 00:38:49.361 --> 00:38:55.271 So we have a really active with my team and developers slack channel and it's 00:38:55.271 --> 00:38:58.731 really cool to see, I've seen like when I was brought on, just how the confidence 00:38:58.731 --> 00:39:03.041 of my team has transformed where there really can kind of go back and forth, 00:39:03.771 --> 00:39:07.631 talk with the developers of like how this works, how the customer actually wants it. 00:39:07.931 --> 00:39:12.781 So we'll have our VP of engineering in there, the lead devs and yeah. 00:39:12.786 --> 00:39:16.951 So we can solve a lot of problems that way right then and there and then update 00:39:16.951 --> 00:39:20.821 our docs or our processes versus it having to go through the whole Jira 00:39:20.821 --> 00:39:22.831 phase, which we're small enough now. 00:39:22.831 --> 00:39:26.461 We can kind of do that, but as it gets bigger, yeah we'll 00:39:26.461 --> 00:39:28.711 lean more on the Jira process 00:39:29.506 --> 00:39:30.216 Colin: Oh, that's cool. 00:39:31.356 --> 00:39:32.106 that's very cool. 00:39:32.396 --> 00:39:35.496 Yeah, and I think to clarify it, so you work with developers who are 00:39:35.496 --> 00:39:39.396 consuming your api, but then you have developers in your company that are 00:39:39.396 --> 00:39:42.441 building features, and so there's developers on both sides of that. 00:39:42.991 --> 00:39:46.141 Lindsay: Colin and I talked a while back, like if someone wants to be a 00:39:46.141 --> 00:39:50.491 developer, like if they do take first job into support, really making it 00:39:50.491 --> 00:39:54.871 clear to their manager that they're working towards development and 00:39:54.876 --> 00:39:58.681 having their manager support them and helping them make introductions, 00:39:59.011 --> 00:40:03.331 get the skills work on like projects and support then require dev skills. 00:40:03.931 --> 00:40:06.211 But yeah, I always vouch for every company I think needs a 00:40:06.211 --> 00:40:07.921 support team to really succeed. 00:40:08.876 --> 00:40:11.526 Colin: I like that because there's a lot of tickets that can, some of them 00:40:11.526 --> 00:40:15.396 can be more technical and then so if you know someone is trying to head towards 00:40:15.396 --> 00:40:18.361 that development ladder, that's a great way of knowing, okay, these tickets 00:40:18.361 --> 00:40:19.591 are gonna be great tickets for you. 00:40:20.101 --> 00:40:22.831 You're gonna get more familiar with the code base and, and we'll 00:40:22.831 --> 00:40:24.696 help support you in that journey. 00:40:24.696 --> 00:40:28.516 And again, I think that's a great path for people getting into tech. 00:40:28.986 --> 00:40:33.616 And I would say, we need to work on fixing that stigma around support engineers or 00:40:33.696 --> 00:40:36.926 even like, to some extent, last episode we talked about developer advocacy, 00:40:36.931 --> 00:40:41.351 like almost being treated as a lesser developer role, and I think that they, 00:40:41.351 --> 00:40:43.691 they all require such different skills. 00:40:44.071 --> 00:40:48.361 As you've shown today, there's just so much nuance to it that you can 00:40:48.391 --> 00:40:50.961 absolutely make it into a career and grow. 00:40:52.797 --> 00:40:53.307 CJ: Thanks Aton. 00:40:53.307 --> 00:40:56.037 Lindsay, I think it's a, a good place to wrap it up. 00:40:56.517 --> 00:40:59.817 As always, if you're interested in the show notes, you can head over 00:40:59.817 --> 00:41:04.047 to Build and learn.dev where we'll drop links to all the resources. 00:41:04.857 --> 00:41:06.087 Thanks again so much for listening. 00:41:06.604 --> 00:41:07.174 Lindsay: Thank y'all. 00:41:07.464 --> 00:41:08.064 Colin: Thank you. 00:41:08.764 --> 00:41:10.114 CJ: All right, that's all for this episode. 00:41:10.114 --> 00:41:10.744 We'll see you next time.