Jason Altmire (00:04)
Welcome to another edition of Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire and today we're going to talk about AI. Once again, it's a very popular topic. Whenever I travel around, people always ask for more content about artificial intelligence, especially as it affects higher education. And in this case, we're going to talk about how it directly affects the trades and career and technical education, which is something that I think

doesn't get reported on as much in the media. And we have two excellent guests to talk about that. They are both from the Association for Career and Technical Education. They are Michael Connet. He's the Associate Deputy Executive Director of Outreach and Partnerships for the Association. And Shawn Freie, she is the Vice President for Post-Secondary Adult and Career Education Division at the Association. Thank you both for being with us.

Shawn Freie (01:02)
Thank you.

Michael Connet (01:03)
Thank you.

Jason Altmire (01:04)
Our associations have gotten to know each other because we both kind of play in the same sandbox, but we have different constituencies. We at CECU are the post-secondary trade schools and career colleges. Maybe let's start by talking about the Association for Career and Technical Education and who your constituency is.

Michael Connet (01:25)
Well, Jason, thank you again very much for having us today. As you may not be familiar, the Association for Career and Technical Education is nearing its 100th or centennial anniversary this fall. So having evolved from very traditional forms of vocational education in the early 20th century to where we're at today, our members span public education into post-secondary education. So we represent

about at any given time 30,000 CTE professionals. And that's across all of the career clusters as they're referenced. And a very important part of our membership and the work we do is to support post-secondary adult and career educators. And that's where Sean comes in. Sean, would you tell us a little about the PACE division?

Shawn Freie (02:18)
Absolutely, I'd love to. So the post-secondary adult and career education division is one that represents our post-secondary students, obviously, and our adult students. And we focus on not only training the students, but following them all the way through to find out how we can put them back into the pipeline to be presenters, mentors to the students that are in a lot of our programs already.

But I mean, it's a wonderful way for networking because right now we, like for instance, not every state is the same. So every state has different post-secondary ideas, it seems like. Ours, we encompass all of that, anywhere from our technical schools to higher ed, and a lot of our colleges, but we really just focus on mainly the skills traits. And like I'm from Oklahoma, so.

we're going to be different than Texas. And so we try to encompass everyone so that nobody feels left out. And really just to get the word out too that CareerTech education is a future of our country, I think.

Jason Altmire (03:27)
Absolutely. One of the issues that has been very ⁓ important with regard to education generally is artificial intelligence, as I mentioned. And it has not gotten the coverage about the impact that it will have on CTE programs, career and technical education. You both have spoken about this quite a bit. When would you say that educators started to

give this more thought. At first, with education, AI was all about cheating, students using it to bend the rules or write papers for them and so forth. And I think now, three or four years later, it's evolved into a much more clear observation that you can use it for positive good as well. And when do you think, with regard to CTE educators, that you started to think

that this is really something we need to address.

Michael Connet (04:24)
So from my experience, I have the great privilege of being able to travel to a number of CTE programs and community and technical colleges across the country throughout the year. So seeing firsthand how instructors and even administrators are approaching the use of AI has been very enlightening for me. And I think the first, if you will, canary in the coal mine that I had happened back in 22, early 23.

That was even before there was the announcement from OpenAI and the original chat GPT was unleashed on the public when I happened to be in ⁓ Miami at Miami Dade Community College and they were working on a program with an area manufacturer where they were trying to assess and use analytical tools to help them project the impact of the training on the students that they were bringing to the program. So from

both an administrator and the classroom instructor's perspective, they were looking at using tools that had some form of early artificial intelligence built in, really predictive technologies. But those really were the first rumblings that I saw over the last three and a half, four years. It has definitely accelerated to the point where you are, I think we're still early in this evolution, but you're seeing a sophistication

with many people moving ⁓ beyond just the concept of generative AI into other spaces such as agentic AI. How are they using tools embedded in other applications to perform functions of their job and how that translates into the teaching and the training that they're providing to learners. Sean, I don't know if you've had a different experience, but please jump in.

Shawn Freie (06:17)
was just thinking when he said, when did I first hear about it or like really within our area? I think it was 2022 when my son asked me a question and I didn't know the answer and he just talked into his phone and found it. That's the first time that I understood what AI was. And it had something to do with agriculture because that's what my family does. But I think in the workplace, I do actually work at a technology center where we are training kids.

I don't know if it's easier, but they understand it. I think that the students we have today, that is how they learn. Whether they're adult students or whether they're secondary students, I think that we have just shifted to where AI is a future and there's no doubt about it. I think that they've adapted, they've overcome some of the challenges, and I see in industry every day things are changing because of AI.

Jason Altmire (07:15)
What

are some examples of, guess this applies in any area of teaching, could be K through 12, higher ed, or CTE in particular, but what are some examples of how faculty and instructors can use AI for their benefit in course design and curriculum development in communicating with students? What are some best practices?

Michael Connet (07:39)
So Jason, I think you're seeing a fairly ⁓ wide understanding from an instructional perspective that you can use generative tools for things like lesson planning, for grade analysis, for putting together resources that help students obtain the information they need. I think what's happening, however, is that the instructional uses are now merging into the what's happening

on the work site and what the job entails as it intersects with AI. Let me give you a specific example. In HVAC classes, it isn't that the instructor just could use AI to create great lesson plans and have detailed instruction sets, but now that instructor needs to understand how a Siemens controller uses artificial intelligence to monitor climate.

within an environment and how that information is collected through the AI is impacting the operation of the HVAC unit. And so the students need to understand that as a concept, not just that it's AI, but what is happening on the job site that's being influenced by it. So as an instructor, I've got to have not only understanding of how to teach that concept.

but also what happens with that concept as it's employed in a real world situation.

Shawn Freie (09:12)
I totally agree with that, Michael. I mean, we see it every day. I'm in industry every day with the job that I have. And it's not that AI is taking jobs away from people. It's helping them be a better employee. And it's just enhancing everything they already know.

Jason Altmire (09:30)
Would you say that this is still in its infancy as it relates to course design and teaching people how to use it on job sites? Because it would seem like there's a long way to go. And what do you see as the rate of adoption among faculty across the country of these technologies?

Michael Connet (09:49)
So the short answer is we're very early and we don't know what the tools and the technologies and the implementation of them are going to be like next week, let alone next year. And so I think we're all going through this shift together. I do think there's also those early adopters that typically get all the attention and then there's the rest of us and then trailing on the end might be those particularly who are

maybe nearing the end of their career and they're not worried as much about having to gain that deeper understanding or the mind shift. And so I think a couple of the things that are going to happen here in very short order are going to be the process of instruction will undergo a fairly seismic shift. It's already started that you're seeing work-based learning being an integral part of so many community and technical college programs.

training programs such as the ones that Sean works with, I think are now moving into that much more applied sensibility in and around the AI tools and the AI operations that they use. I think we've got a lot of exciting times ahead. I think some people tend to get a little nervous about it, and rightfully so because of the unknown, but I tend to see those implementations, those early adopters being

very much strong ambassadors for what will come next.

Shawn Freie (11:19)
And in industry, I see that a lot. And I don't really know how to put it into words the way the industry has been using AI, but it's only going to enhance and they're hiring more people because of it. So I think, you know, the end game is always for our clients and for our students to be gainfully employed. And this is just going to catapult that I think.

Jason Altmire (11:42)
Do you think that this is part of a larger issue with regard to the use of technology more generally in careers that involve the trades?

Michael Connet (11:51)
I I think that I'll call career and technical education the intersection between the human and technology interface. so thinking through all the years of CTE instruction and how they've approached this, I think that there's a terrific track record of CTE being able to evolve to help achieve what workers need to know and how to go about doing it.

I was going to share the analogy that you don't ⁓ open up the hood of your car and automatically know what to do anymore. Back when I took an auto tech class when I was in high school, it was much simpler and what needed to be done. That car and the evolution of what's inside of it has changed significantly from my experience and where it's going from here is even an accelerated path forward.

I had the opportunity to visit with representatives from Panasonic a few weeks ago where they were describing how their EV battery analytics, the electric vehicle battery system, how it is actually communicating with the manufacturer to determine if the driver needs to plug in or more mileage of its self-generating electrical current. And those types of things, you can't plot.

because those inventions and innovations, they're happening everywhere. And that's part of why I'm so excited by what's happening.

Shawn Freie (13:28)
Absolutely.

Jason Altmire (13:29)
People look at AI often as sort of a super Google, right? And people who don't understand the full capability as you're talking about, you you just can find information and ask a question. I've heard people talk about the idea of an HVAC technician or nurse or somebody in the workplace who encounters a problem that they've never seen before. It used to be that you had to

either reference a book that you might have with you or use your experience and your training and your education to try to solve that problem. But today you have at your fingertips every word that's ever been written on that subject and you can ask the question to whatever AI you happen to be using and they can give you some ideas on solving that problem. So I think people can understand that, but the analytical part that you're talking about is where you take that next step. And I think

People can understand the analytics involved in any of the skilled trades, the healthcare programs. what about a program, let's just pick culinary. How would in the workplace or in an educational setting, how can AI be used in that setting?

Michael Connet (14:40)
Well, the technology that's embedded in ⁓ modern contemporary refrigerator, I've got a new sub zero sitting a few feet away from me. My refrigerator is talking all the time to the items that are in inside it. And it's analyzing when I need to know if I need to refresh, you know, get my milk that I put in there last week, if it's about to expire. When you

now explode that out to a culinary arts program. You're operating on an industrial scale, but you also have the opportunity to take information from your operations and compare it with product and supply. What I mean by that is if you're running a restaurant and you have these advanced technology tools and you're able to use them to analyze how many hamburgers you sold the night before, how many glasses of milk.

and your refrigerator is able to talk to your AI agent that you've set up, you'll get a ⁓ text or an email that will tell you when you need to reorder or you'll find out that you have an excess supply and you better put those hamburgers on sale tonight. ⁓ That's the type of ⁓ instruction that CTE teachers in culinary arts and across all the disciplines are going to really need to begin to understand.

and to present those scenarios out to their students. like the term creative thinking is, and critical thinking is used all too often, but that's the skill that I think CTE is going to be particularly adept at helping teach around these real world practical situations on how you use this information and to have AI assist you in knowing how to use that information to teach better and to prepare learners for the world of work of tomorrow or today.

Shawn Freie (16:32)
think, too, a lot of our educational institutions, we haven't gotten totally rid of what we used to do. But, I mean, they still have to know how to use a micrometer. They still need to know how to use certain things. But now, it's just like they accelerate what they can do, and they can work faster, smarter. They're saving their customers money when they're out in the workforce. And I just think the draw for the students that we serve in the technology center where I work

They're in every program from culinary to auto body to welding, nursing, nursing huge. Like if you knew that you could save somebody's life no matter what, wouldn't you do it? Whether it's blood pressure, whether it's the way they disperse medicine, the medication aids and things like that, it's totally endless as to how it is going to enhance our workforce. So I don't even know the words to use.

We're going to be so elevated in the workforce. It'll just be great for our students and for the employers who are hiring those students.

Jason Altmire (17:39)
And Sean, your scope of responsibility, as we mentioned in post-secondary career and technical education, a lot of times, as you are certainly aware, those students are non-traditional students. They've tried something else before. For whatever reason, they're changing their career path. I guess a couple of issues. One would be we continue to hear about how AI is ⁓ going to take these white collar jobs and that's what's at risk.

It's portrayed as the blue collar career technical path. And some of the healthcare programs are maybe more immune to AI. So I would say, how do you address that topic and what is the reality associated with that when you're working with students and faculty in a post-secondary setting? And then what you just talked about, how can you use AI to forecast where the job opportunities might be in the future?

in these professions.

Shawn Freie (18:39)
I think everybody's always forecasting. Every company, every sector, they're already forecasting. AI helps enhance that. So you could ask AI, with the projections that we have this year, how many people are we going to need to add to our staff and in what capacity? And I think that alone to help you forecast where your business is going and like what

qualities and job descriptions that you're going to need. When you talk about HVAC, we have an HVAC program here on our campus. I feel like they are so far ahead of the people that are already in the workforce and they're students that are going to be coming into the workforce. And they're aging out. Our electricians, our plumbers, our welders, carpenters, they're aging out.

Forecasting and like, you know that these students that are going to come out in the class of 2026 in HVAC, they're already leaps and bounds ahead. So as an employer, I would want that type of an employee, somebody who can go out and take care of things that already know ahead of time what they're coming into.

Michael Connet (19:54)
I would just add on that, Sean, two thoughts. One, we've all heard the adage, and that is that AI is not going to take your job, but those people who know how to use AI, they could take your job. Now, I would caveat that in saying that there's great uncertainty about which jobs are going to be most impacted. And to that, would say that forecasting job needs in an age of AI

can use tools to help do some labor projections, but it's still such an unknown. I don't think you can radically create programs based on just your suspicion, because a year, two years ago, I heard all this talk about the next new great career field fueled by AI is going to be prompt engineers. There's going to be tremendous need to have prompt engineers.

Well, I don't know if you've looked at Indeed or Monster lately, but there's zero jobs for prompt engineers. And so the idea that we need to have a new career field that's fueled by AI just because of that, I think that that's a very telling point that we need to keep in mind when we're forecasting what job needs are going to be.

Jason Altmire (21:13)
I think a good way to close would be all three of us have talked about the benefits of AI, how you can use it for positive good in an educational and workplace setting. But what cautionary notes would you offer about the use of AI? Where can it go wrong?

Michael Connet (21:29)
I think there's a couple of things I always tell people. And the first place is investing in a solution that you think can address all of your needs. That's just not logical. If you invest in a solution, you're going to have to invest time and money to it. And it might take longer than you anticipate. So it's not a silver bullet if that's what you're aiming for. I think the other thing that

we need to be very aware of is that AI is now part of the job. And so we have to shift curriculum from just the tools to the workflows. And so it isn't, should we teach AI, but where does AI change the workflow for each of our program areas? We need to ask that question before we leap into its use and deployment.

Shawn Freie (22:23)
I think the human aspect has to always be thought of when we're talking about AI because if we don't have a human aspect running the AI, then how are we going to know exactly what the end product is? So that's sometimes what I worry about with some of the companies and things that I work with that are hiring our students or when we go out to train. Like I have found that they still want the human, a little bit of the human aspect to be tied to that in some way.

Jason Altmire (22:52)
This is obviously one of those topics we could talk about for a long, long time, but we have run out of time for this episode. So if somebody wanted to learn more about the Association for Career and Technical Education or get in touch with either of you to continue the conversation, how would they do it?

Michael Connet (23:09)
Thanks so much, Jason. I would direct them to our website at acteonline.org. And we've got a ton of resources for instructors who are experimenting and planning to use AI. We've got some thought leadership pieces in that space as well. And Sean and my contact information is there on the website.

Jason Altmire (23:29)
Thank you both for being with us. Our guests have been Michael Connet and Shawn Freie from the Association for Career and Technical Education. Thank you both for being with us. Thank you.

Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website at career.org and follow us on Twitter @CECUED. That's at C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.