00:00:00,140 --> 00:00:38,460 [Speaker 0]
[instrumental music] Welcome to our continuing conversation for A Wild and Changing World, a podcast focused on the intersection of human nature and wild nature. My name is Bill Hodge, a nerd for the history of wilderness in America, lover of public lands, and committed steward. And I am joined, as always, by my friend and president of the Wilderness Land Trust, Anders Reynolds. Today, we bring our focus to an urban expression of our national park system, Rock Creek Park in our nation's capital, where we'll be talking with Dan Pushkar with the Rock Creek Conservancy. Anders, I've kind of lost track here for a minute. Is Your Wild Summer still going on? 

00:00:38,460 --> 00:01:14,800 [Speaker 1]
Oh, hi, Bill. Yes, our Your Wild Summer promotion continues. We are in week 3. Um, we have been on an incredible journey with some great stories from our listeners about how they're getting engaged with public lands and waters this summer, but there's still 2 weeks to go. And this week, we're upping the ante just a little bit. So for the 1st 2 weeks, we gave out 2 pair of FKT sunglasses each week to storytellers who wrote in to tell us about how they're spending their wild summer. 

00:01:15,820 --> 00:02:51,940 [Speaker 1]
This week and then again next week, we are going to give away 3 pair of sunglasses. So that's 3 pair of FKT sunglasses that are up for grabs if you want to share your story about your wild summer. And this week, as every week, we have a new prompt, and this week's prompt is Bill and I wanna know how you are connecting the next generation of public land lovers to the outdoors. So you can find a way to share that story in our show notes or probably on any of our multiple social media posts about this, but we're really looking for stories about getting kids on the land early and often, say, or maybe lowering barriers to entry through, I don't know, gear libraries or transportation to trailheads, something like that, programming close to where people actually live. Um, other stories might include mentorship and belonging, right? Pairing young people with, with mentors, uh, like rangers or biologists or guides or other elders. May-maybe it's a story about meeting people where they are, right? Or, or, or building the pipeline into, uh, outdoor careers and outdoor advocacy. I'd love to hear some stories about that. Internships, fellowships, seasonal jobs that turn a, a, a summer of interest into some sort of, of profession in, in land or water management or conservation. There's a thousand ways this could go, and I know our listeners, Bill, probably have a thousand stories. But incredibly, this isn't the only project we're working on right now, is it? What, what's the other thing we got cooking? 

00:02:51,940 --> 00:04:09,859 [Speaker 0]
Yeah. The o- the other thing, when you, uh, go to submit your story at thewildidea.com, uh, is there's also a survey we have there that we would love to hear from you all, uh, what we're doing well, what we could do better, what you like, who... maybe who you want us to talk to in the future on the podcast. We wanna hear from you because we do this for you. We love our community. We've loved how engaged you've been. As Anders said, we've loved hearing these stories. I can't wait to hear some of these stories about connecting the next generation, because something near and dear to my heart, for sure. So you can do both of those things. Submit your story, respond to our survey at thewildidea.com. Please take a minute to do the survey. Absolutely share your story so you can win a pair of these wonderful FKT sunglasses. And meanwhile, let's have a great conversation with Dan Pushkar with the Rock Creek Conservancy. So Dan, welcome to the Wild Idea podcast. We're just really excited to dive into what I think is an incredibly unique national park, uh, in so many ways. But before we get to the park and some exciting, you know, current affairs, developments that are going on with the park, I kind of wanna let our audience get to know you a little bit. Tell me what brought you into conservation. Give us the journey to, uh, to this role with the Rock Creek Conservancy. 

00:04:09,860 --> 00:07:22,212 [Speaker 2]
It's a great question. I wish I had a really easy answer. I can take you back to national park moments in my life. I remember the 2nd grade trip to, uh, Valley Forge National Historical Park to go see where George Washington and his troops camped out. That was kind of a normal place to go when you grow up in South Jersey like I did. I remember going to Independence Hall as an 8th grader. My parents started getting my sister and I to go on trips probably around the time I was 10. We'd really go away and have a vacation in the summer. And I still remember my 1st ever trip to a big N, big P national park, Acadia up in Maine, climbing the Beehive with my dad. Mom and my sister didn't wanna go. They, they went around the back, kind of the, the more flat way. They met us after we went, uh, through all of the, the ladders and where you gotta pull yourself up a chain and that kind of stuff. I don't know exactly how old I was. I bet I was 13 or 14, but making that climb with my dad, looking down to the ocean... Wait, wait a minute. I'm from South Jersey. Everything's flat. Are you telling me we have mountains by the ocean now? It was just crazy. And I, I think that all stuck with me in some way. I didn't want to, though... Growing up, I never thought I was gonna be in the kind of world I'm in right now, especially an organization with the name conservancy in it. Uh, I was always fascinated by the outdoors, loved the outdoors, but I was definitely not trying to study that in undergrad or anything. I, I was a bio major for the longest time, but I worked in a retrovirology lab. I'm working with Petri dishes, that kind of thing. I went, I went to Villanova. Amazing, wonderful place. The professor that taught the majority of the ecology classes, though, his, his field of study were the chickadees of Southwest Pennsylvania. Nothing at the time, at age 20 years old, sounded more boring to me than that. So for my bio major, I had to take a, a class like that, and I did not care about chickadees at age 20. Didn't care at all. I was able to get a scholarship, and I studied abroad in Botswana for a semester. And it was there I did my ecology d- uh, requirements by going and watching hippo in the Okavango Delta or giraffe running across Chobe National Park. And I was like, "Okay, I can get into this kind of stuff." But, uh, yeah, it, it, it wasn't a clear journey at all. And really, it all came down to I finished grad school with my degree in history and anthropology, and I was looking for something to do in the summer before my real career was supposed to start, and I became a park ranger at Mesa Verde National Park. It was meant to be three and a half months, and then I was gonna go back to my real world with all the real plans that I had for where I was really headed. 

00:07:23,352 --> 00:07:26,332 [Speaker 2]
But I've been in the parks ever since. [laughs] 

00:07:26,332 --> 00:08:01,212 [Speaker 0]
But it wasn't to be. I mean, what a great, honest telling of how you got here. Sometimes it's, like, a straight line, but I love how it wasn't a really perfectly straight line. Before you came to Rock Creek Conservancy, though, you spent, like, a decade, right, at Public Lands Alliance, which is a national organization sort of dedicated to protecting America's public lands by supporting groups, the local nonprofit organizations that partner with our national parks. But now you run one of those groups. What does it feel like moving from the sort of the macro to the micro, and what has surprised you the, the most about that transition? 

00:08:01,212 --> 00:09:37,282 [Speaker 2]
I have to say, it actually feels coming back home in a way. Uh, for the longest time, if anyone ever asked what my favorite national park was, I'd tell them it was Mesa Verde. I lived in the park for more than 2 years. I was a ranger there, uh, grew up in my career there with the Park Service for a while, and then I moved to DC, 1st to work for the National Park Foundation. I was there for 6 years before moving to PLA. And I have to say, I think it was about 15 years into that I've been working at the national level. I'm trying to hold it all in my head. Uh, the work that you're doing is around, uh, what those trends, uh, that are happening across partnerships, across national parks, forests, Bureau of Land Management, uh, National Wildlife, uh, Refuges, or you're thinking about the legislation you're trying to move through Congress, and you're, you're trying to take the whole thing in. And I gotta say, after about 15 years, I, I had this, this feeling, "You know what? My next step, I'm gonna have a park again. I don't know what it's gonna look like exactly, but I'm ready to go back." To, to go back to those days where you were partnering with the local chambers of commerce to figure out how you were bringing people to your park. You were working with the local universities on the research projects and the way in which we, we develop knowledge about the environment we live in. Uh, you're gonna be, uh, drawn to working with the staff at such a local level, 

00:09:38,332 --> 00:10:04,152 [Speaker 2]
not the policymakers, but the ones just trying to figure out, how do we meet the community's interests while serving the, uh, high ideals that the National Park Service Organic Act requires and doing it a way with way too little funds to make it all meet the way it's supposed to. You, you really asked, "Well, what's the difference from going to the macro to the micro?" 

00:10:05,552 --> 00:12:10,932 [Speaker 2]
One, and I think the thing that's probably struck me more than anything, is the degree to which everything's the same. You know, the relationships you're forging at the national level to try to come to consensus because you know what? Our public lands, they're just so big. It, it's not gonna work to just have, uh, an idea that everyone can't grab a hold onto. And if anything, ensuring that our public lands are the thing that everybody can get behind is always so essential. And you know what? At a local level, your local national park, your, your, your local any park, you know, that's, that's the communities. That, that's your place. And, and finding a way to, as best as possible, invite everyone in, be relationship-based, all the same. I will say, though, it takes a different kind of creative part of your brain, and that's been fun to exercise. [laughs] You know, when, when government shutdowns were happening and I was working with national organizations, the questions began, how do we get the voices of our members heard to those elected on the Hill? How can we tell the stories of where the hurt is happening, the protection that isn't happening to our natural resources? How can we try to move the needle when there are, like, only 4 people that get to decide whether we break this impasse or not? And last year, when we had the longest government shutdown ever, instead, we're trying to figure out, where can we still mobilize volunteers to get something done? [laughs] How can we work with those in the community to say, "Hey, we're used to having park rangers do X, Y, or Z. Where can we help fill in the gaps?" Not forever, not because those folks are replaceable, but because the resources we're protecting are. How can we get through this impasse? And that's been, in some ways, the most fun part of the job. There are, there are so many people, so many institutions in Washington, DC, in Maryland that care deeply about Rock Creek Park. And when help is needed, pe- people wanna take up that call. 

00:12:10,932 --> 00:12:20,672 [Speaker 0]
I'm curious for our audience that maybe haven't been to the park, if you could maybe describe it for us. I'll, I'll be honest. I, I, you know, I've never lived in the DC metro.

00:12:21,328 --> 00:12:39,508 [Speaker 1]
Been there a lot as an advocate and lobbying for certain things. And, and frankly, a lot of my sort of exercise time has been spent on the mall, and I should have been more of it in the park. Can you describe what Rock Creek Park is like to somebody in our audience who hasn't been there, where it sits, how it's situated in the city, that kind of thing? 

00:12:39,508 --> 00:16:26,728 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. So Rock Creek Park, uh, gets its name from Rock Creek, uh, which is a 33-mile tributary of the Potomac River. It starts up in the northern parts of Montgomery County in Maryland, winds its way down through a lot of cities some of your listeners might have heard of, like Rockville and Bethesda. Uh, and ultimately, it enters, uh, the district into Washington, DC. And the last, uh, 10 miles or so of that creek is in the district and surrounded by, uh, one of the largest urban parks there is. And so for, for your listeners that are trying to, to, to get an idea of this, imagine Central Park. Now double it. Now add a couple 100 more acres, and now you're at the size of Rock Creek Park. It spans more than 1,750 acres, just the core of the park that was 1st established in 18 90 by Congress. So I think everybody knows Yellowstone was our 1st national park, right? Uh, and then we get the, the smattering of them that everyone's favorite conservation president, Benjamin Harrison, uh, brought into being. I, I, I, I know, I know. Everybody's got their favorite, what did Benjamin Harrison do? And it's okay. That's fine. Um, but 1st we got Sequoia, then we got Rock Creek Park, and then we got Yosemite. And it was all basically done in the same week in, uh, late September in 1890. All of these bills finally moved through. And if you go back and read what the senators from Kansas that were moving the legislation were talking about back then, you'll hear them talk about, 1st, the Valley of the Yosemite, which I think all, uh, so many of your listeners can imagine. And they were also talking about the Valley of the Rock Creek that for the people of Washington, which at the, at the time when Washington was 1st formed, most of the city was actually technically south of where the core of the park is. That was in the other part of the District of Columbia. But this was the place that people would go to recreate. And at the same time, they're thinking about, what does it mean to save Yellowstone Valley? They're thinking, for us here in this federal district, we need this valley, this place that as you come from the hills where agriculture was normal, you finally hit the edge, and there is a valley there. You're dropping hundreds of feet down to where the Rock Creek has made its mark. You get to go through those valleys and those hollows, and you see the trees down there. Um, you talked about recreating on the National Mall, and I-- you will never find me ever disparage the National Mall, but it gets the kind of name like it's America's front yard for a reason. It is the nation's national park in DC. I always think of D- of Rock Creek, that's Washingtonians' national park. That's the one where they get more than 2 1000000 visits a year, up there with some of the biggest national parks. More than 2 1000000 recreational visits a year, and that does not count all the people driving along the parkway. We're not counting them, just the people that get out of the cars to go on a hike, to go horseback riding, to, uh, go use our golf course, to go to the tennis centers, to go kayaking. All of those things available in Rock Creek, a really incredible, vibrant urban national park. And again, and I submit to you, some of Benjamin Harrison's greatest work. 

00:16:26,728 --> 00:17:44,367 [Speaker 1]
We'll get back to Benjamin Harrison. But Dan, I-- you have got me so pumped up about Rock Creek Park as if I've never seen it. Bill and I have a lot of differences. Um, I'm not gonna list them all here. I'm not gonna get into who bathes more regularly than the other. But one of our biggest differences is that I have spent a lot of time in Rock Creek Park. I lived in DC for 20 years. Rock Creek Park was probably, um, more central to my DC experience than even the, the 3 jobs I had while I was there. Um, even more formative than Stoney's on P has been for my experience. I exercised there, I ran there, I celebrated birthdays there, I saw bald eagles there, I, you know, walked with friends there. I was able to, you, you know, turn down the noise and, and seek some, um, mental space for myself there. Um, and I don't think my experience is probably much different from the experience others have at Rock Creek Park. Um, but with all those folks out commuting, jogging, walking dogs, using the park as, as their big backyard, how often do you find yourself having to re- remind people it isn't just a city park, right? That it shares the same, quote unquote, "mandate" with parks like Yellowstone or Sequoia or Yosemite? 

00:17:44,368 --> 00:20:53,578 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, I mean, it is a tension, right? And, and I do think that there is-- there has been all sorts of discourse around urban national parks, what their role is. Uh, uh, often the telling is that it really came into the fore in the '60s and '70s, you know, when Herzog was at the Park Service. That's when we see a ton of these recreation areas getting created and stuff. I think having lived in the district, you also know DC is just a little bit special. The idea that we have federal parks in the middle of everything, heck, the National Mall, nobody's confused about that. Uh, so I think there's something slightly different there. Um, it's also worth noting that Rock Creek is bigger than just that 1,754 acres. That might be the core of the Reservation 339 that was the original tract of land that Congress set aside. But like with many national parks, uh, their superintendents, the, the staff put in charge, the rangers that are leading that site end up with a lot of other stuff as well. And honestly, within the District of Columbia, Rock Creek Park staff manages almost an additional 1,200 acres scattered in the circles and squares and other parts of the, the city. It's, uh, around here, you, you, you, you blink and you've passed 3 different pieces of land managed by the National Park Service. Uh, and that does create some, some interesting tensions. I, I have to say, though, at the end of the day, what we're seeing in, in DC, and I think you see playing across a lot of urban parks of every stripe, is that no government, uh, and municipal, national is able to give all of the investments to their local park that the citizens, the residents, the neighbors wish they had. Right? I brought up Central Park a moment ago. Central Park Conservancy does huge amounts of the programming and management and everything to make that much smaller than Rock Creek Park, uh, site work the way people understand it to work. And here in Washington, DC, there are groups like ours, Rock Creek Conservancy, that works night and day to try and ensure that this park has the resources it needs, that the people who rely on it, uh, are going to see those forests still there 50 years from now, can access the park and its trails because those trails are being well-maintained. The signage on them lets them know they're safe in this urban environment to go down that path around a corner and a, and a woods they can't see the end of just yet, uh, to bring art back into the park at the facilities created for those reasons. Uh, and, you know, a lot of DC parks, the, the, even the, the ones managed by the district, you're seeing more and more of that happen too. I, I think more than anything, there's just a common understanding that like so many aspects of the things we expect our government to deliver, 

00:20:54,688 --> 00:21:28,848 [Speaker 2]
the government will get you so far, and it's the people coming together to say, "Where can we make this a place for our community?" Those, those added things that have that local touch that, that you're not gonna get from whatever kind of bureaucratic system is, is ultimately charged with its stewardship. And they do fabulous work, don't get me wrong. Um, but, but we see that across DC, and it's, it's really inspiring. The people here, I think, in the district, in, in neighboring Maryland, they... we care about our green spaces here. 

00:21:28,848 --> 00:21:40,688 [Speaker 1]
You mentioned that no government is able to give all the attention, um, to any particular piece of land that its neighbors wish it could. And, you know, I, I think about these iconic destinations like 

00:21:41,708 --> 00:21:47,988 [Speaker 1]
Grand Canyon National Park or Rocky Mountain National Park, you know, that, that get to enjoy families coming from across the country- 

00:21:47,988 --> 00:21:48,188 [Speaker 2]
Mm-hmm 

00:21:48,188 --> 00:21:49,828 [Speaker 1]
... to pay an entry fee- 

00:21:49,828 --> 00:21:50,168 [Speaker 2]
Yes 

00:21:50,168 --> 00:22:22,128 [Speaker 1]
... spend money at the gift shop. You know, and y- you don't have that, but you've got a couple million locals who treat Rock Creek Park, you know, as, as their big backyard. It's, it-- To them, it's free and, and permanent. Um, for, for everybody, it's free. [laughs] Um, does that, quote-unquote, "city park" sort of mentality actually cost Rock Creek anything, whether in dollars or in stewardship or in political leverage? You know, w- would it be too much to suggest that being taken for granted is the central threat to the place? 

00:22:22,128 --> 00:23:16,088 [Speaker 2]
I don't know if I'd wanna frame it that way. I mean, you're right that some of the, the bigger Western parks, many of them are known for having entrance fees. And believe me, they rely on those dollars. There are plenty of large parks that don't, though. I think the Smoky Mountains is probably the best example, right? They, they, they're not allowed because of state laws to charge entrance fees. And so, uh, it's not... I, I, I... Hmm, yeah. I, I have a hard time saying we're, we're getting left behind. If, on the other hand, you and Bill wanna start a drive that, "Hey, you know, uh, u- usual annual park, uh, entrance fee is 50 dollars. Every user of Rock Creek probably should give that amount to the conservancy each year, uh, in, in, in lieu of that." I mean, 

00:23:17,348 --> 00:23:39,368 [Speaker 2]
I- I'm not gonna object if you start such a campaign, uh, but, but I don't think it's what we should require of people either. Um, [laughs] you know, it, it, it's not like parks are the only place where government can't always get it done. I, I think everybody loves, uh, FEMA, but that doesn't mean you're gonna say, "Ah, American Red Cross, do we really need them?" Uh, 

00:23:40,488 --> 00:26:09,450 [Speaker 2]
the national parks, you know, uh, our, our urban parks, uh, they do get investment. Should they get more from the federal fisc? Absolutely. Have, have, have, uh, the amount of monies given to parks year over year, the actual dollar figure, not really changed substantially for more than 20 years? Yeah. Has fl- inflation and the cost of each ranger gone up a lot since then? You bet it has, and rightfully so. And what that means is all of our parks are getting less today than they were 20 years ago. Flat budgets will do that to you. And we hope, uh, people do want to give back. They can give back through their advocacy to Congress. They can partner with organizations like mine and, and in the places you mentioned. They can partner with Grand Canyon Conservancy and Rocky Mountain Conservancy. Uh, and we love the number of people that partner with us at Rock Creek. I have to say, amazing, um, in partnership with the Park Service, we run what I believe to be, what I've been told by our Park Service colleagues to be the largest volunteer event program in the National Park System. Uh, with Rock Creek Conservancy, we are bringing more than 4,000 people a year, just the conservancy, to do volunteer work across Rock Creek, the core, as, as well as the, the many sites it manages throughout Washington, DC. Uh, we help lead, uh, those with specialized knowledge, our weed warriors that have been doing incredible work taking care of the pe- pe- sections of Rock Creek that are truly just in their backyards and giving that extra measure of difference. Our stream team leaders that lead cleanups, bacteria monitors that are, are checking the health of Rock Creek because we don't want anyone going swimming in there or sending their dogs in there if it, if it's not safe. And, and we need to monitor that so that as we can advocate for better practices of the pollutants and other things that can affect the 33 miles of Rock Creek that all ultimately have to drain through our national park. We have incredible volunteers doing so many things that the park relies on, and that's another incredible way of giving back. But again, if you wanna start your 50-dollar campaign for everybody just to treat it like an entrance fee, I, I, I see that's where you were going, and I'm fine with it, Anders. I'm, I'm fine. 

00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:11,500 [Speaker 0]
Let's not give Anders too much credit for good ideas. 

00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:11,810 [Speaker 2]
[laughs] 

00:26:11,810 --> 00:26:16,180 [Speaker 0]
He, he's, you know, he's, he's gonna run with that for a long time. We'll be right back after this break. 

00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,100 [Speaker 2]
Hi, I'm Leslie Miller with Backcountry Horseman, and you're listening to The Wild Idea. 

00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:28,200 [Speaker 0]
You know, you brought up something there in that answer that I wanna get to real quick, which is Rock Creek's health. 

00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:28,480 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. 

00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:55,580 [Speaker 0]
And here, I'm talking about the actual creek itself and not the park, which depends an awful lot on things that happen outside the boundaries of the park, whether it's stormwater or sewage runoff from DC and the fact that the watershed starts outside of the district up in Montgomery County. Like, how do you run a conservation organization for a resource whose fate is mostly decided by people who don't work for the park and don't answer to the park or to the partner, in the case of the conservancy? 

00:26:55,580 --> 00:29:20,680 [Speaker 2]
Yeah. So actually, Rock Creek Conservancy, the original name of the organization, uh, was the Friends of Rock Creek's Environment, FORCE. And it was originally founded in 2005 as a watershed organization. And it's, it, it's in-- it, it said its focus is the length and breadth of Rock Creek and the 50,000 or so acres that, uh, it drains, so the water basin that it drains. Uh, but if you also talk to some of the founders of the organization, especially during the years when it was all volunteer as it was for the 1st 5 or so of his, its existence, they will tell you that within a year or 2, they're talking about Rock Creek Park, the fact that it is at the end, the terminus of all of those drops of water, that everything that happens elsewhere ultimately hits that national park. And so I, I have to say, for the 20-plus years of our existence now, we've lived on that edge, uh, sometimes with a little emphasis more on one or the other, but we've lived in that edge, uh, because it's-- Everything you just said is absolutely right. There are things out of our control. Um, we know that the parks that are supported along Rock Creek, and I have to say Montgomery Parks, uh, operates a number of exceptional park units along the northern part of the Rock Creek itself. Most of the, the creek, most of the 33 miles is surrounded by parkland. Um, what does that mean for us? How do we try to effect change? A lot of it involves strategic partnerships, right? How can we come together in coalition with other organizations that support not just Rock Creek? We may be the one organization that's really fixated on its length and breadth, but what about those folks that care about the Potomac? We're a tributary of that. What about the folks that care about the Chesapeake? We're all a tributary moving into it. And so it's often in coalition with others that we're able to talk about some of those bigger issues around pollutants and the ways in which we want all of our waterways to do better. And then when it comes to our immediate activation, we do find ourselves often closer and closer to the creek itself. 

00:29:20,680 --> 00:32:18,588 [Speaker 1]
That's a great answer, and I'm, I'm so glad you brought up, um, strategic partnerships. Dan, you've done such a good job in your answers of, of educating folks on how, um, many of our public lands and waters are getting less than they were a few years ago, as you said, um, and also mentioning just how important it is to, to reach consensus. Um, and I, and I wanna ask you about all the, all the various volunteer programs and partner groups that you've already mentioned, you know, groups that focus on water monitoring and, and other advocacy touches. Um, the, the DMV, the District of Maryland, Virginia, the DMV sports so many nearby public lands and waters. You just mentioned the Potomac and the Chesapeake, but there's also groups like C&O Canal Trust, uh, groups that are involved with the National Mall. There's Accokeek. There's Kenilworth Aqua- Aquatic Gardens. There's Civil War battlefields for miles and miles, right? Shenandoah National Park. I could go on and on. There are all these groups, um, sort of working towards the same thing. And, um, if you two indulge me for a second, here's where I'm gonna return to, to, to Benjamin Harrison because I, I want to tell our listeners a story of 2 possums because I, I 1st heard this story from the Washington Post's Presidential podcast, which focused on one American president per episode, um, and which ran, I think, in the, in the run-up to the 2016 election, although I may have that year wrong. There's not a lot to the possum story other than the fact that President Benjamin Harrison, who evidently was a big animal lover, um, was gifted 2 possums that lived with him at the White House. Um, but what really struck me about the podcast episode, um, were the names of the possums, and those possums were named Mr. Protection and Mr. Reciprocity. And for me, for a long time when I was an advocate on the Hill, Mr. Protection and Mr. Reciprocity were really good mascots to remember, um, when I went up to the Hill or had a meeting with admin. Because as, as you know, Dan, like the, the likelihood of any bill carrying a type of sort of pure protection is incredibly slim. And I'll use examples from, from my history, not so I won't put you on the spot, but there, there's, there's probably not going to be a-another clean wilderness designation. You know, there's not gonna be a simple PFAS pollution bill. There's not gonna be any short and sweet clean energy initiatives. Instead, to the extent we see these bills at all, wilderness designation is probably gonna come with some sort of management decision, you know, for landscapes around. And PFAS language may be wrapped into a large-larger package that, that includes language that some folks may not like. And clean energy initiatives may be approved alongside improved conditions for oil and gas interests, for example, right? The, the point I'm trying to make is the protection only moves with, with reciprocity. I guess what I wanna ask is, what are all those disparate groups focused on? What's the protection you have in mind and what are the reciprocal decisions you're facing right now? 

00:32:18,588 --> 00:32:50,328 [Speaker 2]
I'll actually start by saying this. It's, it's been interesting, uh, the transition I've made, especially as it relates to working with Congress and, and on the Hill. Uh, I came from a place for many, many years now of representing constituents of all of those senators and all of those representatives. And now here I am living in downtown Washington, DC, supporting a DC national park. And we are gonna get a new delegate, 

00:32:51,388 --> 00:37:08,128 [Speaker 2]
um, and we've, we've had a great one, but we don't have a representative. We don't have 2 senators. And wow, has that changed how I think about what it means for me to go to the Hill anymore. It's good that Rock Creek runs through Maryland. And I have to say, we've got tremendous champions in our Maryland senators and Jamie Raskin, who represents, uh, Rock Creek in Maryland. That's one thing to say. It's, it's, it's fun being in your federal district. The 2nd thing I'll say is there are things that are moving right now, nonetheless. There is a shared understanding, for example, that deferred maintenance has been affecting all of our major public lands. Uh, and now 6 years ago, we had signed into law the Great American Outdoors Act that did many things, uh, making permanent funding for the Land and Water Conservation Fund, for example, but also allocating almost 10 1000000000 dollars towards ensuring that the National Park Service, US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, and, uh, the US Fish and Wildlife Service, um, um, among others, received funding to tackle deferred maintenance. And we've been seeing a lot of action right now around a bill called the America the Beautiful Act, which does come with some different compromises, different, different things in it, uh, that are, that are gonna matter. Um, but you know what? The, the overall totality of bringing billions of dollars to helping to fix some transportation work, but also, uh, especially with the National Park Service, um, really putting the focus into the facilities that visitors use so much is really, really incredible. I wouldn't say we're, we're dead in the water for good legislation that could really, um, make a difference. Uh, but compromise also comes in different ways. Uh, we were talking a minute about water health a, a moment ago. And while it's not peculiarly an advocacy piece, uh, one of the things that we wrestle with as a conservancy is how to balance the work that we are doing to, uh, for example, how do we protect, uh, the forest of Rock Creek Park right now? The forest is hurting, whether it's because of climate change, beech leaf disease now starting to really come in, uh, whether it, it is a problem that for years the deer ran rampant and we lost a whole understory in a lot of it. You, you could think that Rock Creek Conservancy needs to be leading 1st. Every single tree, we can't possibly lose one. Except here's the thing. We're fortunate enough that DC Water and the city are coming together to improve the waterways of DC, including Rock Creek. And there is a major initiative. Uh, ground was just broken on new tunnel work happening in the Piney Branch section of the park. And, you know, to be able to put in this new piping that is probably gonna reduce the amount of E. coli in the core of Rock Creek, like, by an order of magnitude, could possibly be the most important environmental thing we ever do right there. There are some trees that have had to come down. We mourn each one. But at the same time, there, there is always a natural resource management, these different balancing acts. Is this one perfect? Did everybody get absolutely everything right? You know what? I don't know. [laughs] I'm not trained in that. I can't answer it. What I do know is the community has had to come together in a lot of different ways. Some people have to accept longer li- uh, longer commute times. Some people have to accept that, uh, some of the trees they cared about desperately aren't gonna be there anymore. And we'll take comfort in the fact that there are restoration funds coming after, and we hope to be a big part of restoring that valley after the work is done. And maybe, just maybe, we'll, along the way, though, create one of the biggest environmental changes to the health of Rock Creek that's happened in a century.

00:37:08,744 --> 00:37:21,124 [Speaker 1]
Dan, Rock Creek cuts across some of the most economically and racially divided ground in the country, and access to it isn't necessarily always equal across those neighborhoods. Um, 

00:37:22,144 --> 00:37:30,644 [Speaker 1]
you know, where does equity stop being a value statement for y'all and, and start being an actual land management and, and access argument for you? 

00:37:30,644 --> 00:39:58,464 [Speaker 2]
Uh, well, I, I don't wanna even say it's an argument for us. I think it's embedded in our work, though. I think we consider it an essential piece that as we get to start some of this work, especially as we... Uh, let, let me give a, as an example to you. Uh, a number of years ago, we began working with, uh, the National Park Service to come up with a new, uh, sign plan for the entirety of the park. And maybe this starts to get to one of your other earlier questions about, "Hey, d- how often do you have to explain this is a national park?" But we came up with a whole new schema for signs, and part of it was about accessibility, right? We had a system of park signs that were a lot of just brown wood, name of trail, distance point one to, uh, to one point 7 mile kind of stuff, right? And part of what we wanna do is make sure that we are in a more friendly and less I told you so kind of way to give people safety information, to help them recreate responsibly, to give them information about what they're going to encounter so that they can feel confident moving through an urban environment they might not know as well. Um, and in terms of starting to implement that sign plan, a decision was made, well, well, where should we start? What, what, where should we begin this work? Uh, and you know what? There are clear areas of the, that Rock Creek Park manages that are in those neighborhoods that haven't been invited as they should into these spaces. So you know what? Working with the Park Service, the 1st signs are going in there. We'll, we'll work our way through. We, of course, want to get to everyone. Um, but if it, if it comes down to where, where does this work need to begin, this, this park-wide project, we know where we need to start 1st. We-- And we know it needs to be as a matter of how are we making sure that you feel included, not just welcome, but truly included in the work, in, in the experience of this park. Um, one of the things that I, I think has also been, been clear to us is that there are spaces within the park that have special meaning and resi- uh, relevance to those who have lived in DC the, the longest. Um, Carter Baron Amphitheater 

00:39:59,524 --> 00:41:14,654 [Speaker 2]
is a site that was 1st, uh, built by the federal government in partnership with some in the private sector in 1950 to celebrate the 150th anniversary of DC being our nation's capital. And when it opened in 1950, it was one of only 3 sites that was not segregated, that if you wanted to go and hear music in a, a theater space, that you could go to the Carter Baron Amphitheater. You could go to Rock Creek and have that, where there were countless places across the city in the 1950s that that was not even a piece of. And so in recent years, um, unfortunately, unfortunately, after its 1st 65 years of, uh, having incredible entertainers there, Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington, Bruce Springsteen premiered his, some of his albums there. They also, uh, had weekends devoted to Shakespeare, and somehow, and I still don't understand exactly how this happened, Ice Capades was on the stage at Rock, in Rock Creek. Um, 

00:41:16,004 --> 00:42:20,304 [Speaker 2]
but unfortunately, after 65 years, deferred maintenance caught up with everyone. We need an America the Beautiful Act to help us fix places like Carter Baron that haven't been opened for 10 years, because there are communities here in DC that look to places like Carter Baron and the openness and accessibility it's had since it was begun as a place everyone should be able to go. This is, this, this needs to be here, uh, and it, it has become an opportunity for us to grow a program we call the Carter Baron Alliance to bring together those who care about the history of music in this city, uh, those who care about the arts, who care about historic preservation, who care about public spaces and nature to come together and find a way to make sure that if deferred maintenance dollars come along, [laughs] we're ready and can do something great. 

00:42:20,304 --> 00:42:52,784 [Speaker 0]
Dan, we've been painting with a really broad brush here. We've, we've given, you know, through your answers, just I, I think a really good description of the work of Rock Creek Conservancy, the park itself, the creek itself, the work of, of, of a national park that is part urban park. And now you've brought sort of down to a granular level this, this description of Carter Baron, the amphitheater, and this is a really significant week for that amphitheater. Would you tell our audience a little bit about what's going on this very week in the park at the amphitheater? 

00:42:52,784 --> 00:45:36,932 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, it's really exciting. Uh, the 2016 season was the last season that the Park Service was able to produce at Carter Baron. Not long after that, they discovered a really big problem, which was that the stage, the stage could no longer support the acts that were on it. It was, it was, it was unfit for purpose. And so the, the stage has been- Quiet. Uh, it's been 10 years and, and a lot of work has been done behind the scenes, yeoman's work by the National Park Service to ensure that a site that isn't being used as much, uh, has been stabilized, uh, has been protected. Uh, but we haven't, um, been able to invite people back in, not in the way they kind of remember. And, and we're really excited, uh, at Rock Creek Conservancy that the Park Service has permitted us this week, uh, to open it for the 1st time in a decade here in the middle of A-250 at a site created for the 150th of Washington, DC to bring the soundtrack of DC back. We've got gospel. We've got jazz. We've got go-go and sometimes a fusion of all those and more coming over, over 3 nights. Uh, you know, we still have the, the problems that existed, though. Uh, we cannot use the stage, but the Park Service has allowed us to be creative. We're gonna build a mobile stage. It's kinda gonna take up some of the, the lower, uh, gangway and also, uh, cover over a couple of rows of seats. But we're gonna be able to bring in a production team, and we've been able to partner with some really amazing folks, um, from the Washington Performing Arts, uh, the DC Jazz Festival. Uh, we've had great support from the National Park Service's, uh, Chesapeake Gateways program, uh, to be able to pull this off for the 1st time in a decade, to invite people to come in, thousands of people to come in and experience music once again in this site. And I, I can't tell you how hopeful I am that this experiment, which the Park Service is allowing us to, to try, uh, I, I, I hope it's a success on so many levels. I know it'll be a success just to be there and hear the sounds of jazz, to hear a go-go band play. Uh, a couple of our acts have actually played the site back at, when it had been opened more than a decade ago, and we're so happy to bring them back to, to, to our, uh, slightly different stage. Uh, it, it won't look like it did before. You know what, though? That's okay. 

00:45:37,952 --> 00:47:11,492 [Speaker 2]
We're, we're getting people back in this special place. We're giving them that chance to reconnect with this history, with this lineage, with these sounds, and I hope everyone takes a moment while they're enjoying the music, while they're, they're standing up and dancing, to look around and realize, "That still needs to be painted. Uh, we're, we're using port-a-potties because they, they don't have running restrooms anymore. Uh, the concession stand can't be open. Uh, the, the rainwater is falling through it. We, we can't, we can't be there." They're not even using the stage, and I hope they join with us in our Carter Baron Alliance. I, I hope they, they talk to our new delegates and our, our, our, our local politicians. I talked to... We're gonna have a new mayor, many new council members very soon. Um, I, I hope they keep the drumbeat with the Trump administration because, you know, this is the kind of place when we think about what, what needs to be in the fabric of our national parks, in the fabric of our urban centers, in, in a, in a place that otherwise is there to, uh, create some of those more classic opportunities for recreation and to mix amid the horseback riding and the trail work. Uh, again, we've got tennis, we got golf, we got kayaking, and yes, we have music and we have theater. And this is all a part about what makes today Rock Creek Park so incredibly special. 

00:47:11,492 --> 00:47:20,032 [Speaker 1]
Oh, Dan, I'm so sorry I'm gonna miss it. Oh my God. I'm gonna encourage everybody I know in DC to go. 

00:47:20,032 --> 00:47:21,132 [Speaker 2]
Please, please, please. 

00:47:21,132 --> 00:47:23,832 [Speaker 1]
Where do they go to get tickets? Are there still tickets available? 

00:47:23,832 --> 00:47:47,652 [Speaker 2]
There are still tickets. Uh, go to rockcreekconservancy.org. You can get your tickets there. In an effort to as well be very accessible, tickets are just 15 dollars. This is not the kind of deal where we're trying to make a ton of money, but we are so looking forward to inviting thousands of Washingtonians and park neighbors to come see us. 

00:47:47,652 --> 00:48:13,592 [Speaker 1]
Dan, you're such a force. I'm [laughs] so glad you're on the side of Rock Creek. It's one of my favorite places, and I feel like it's in such good hands, so thank you so much. Also, I hope whoever, whatever group is in charge of Benjamin Harrison's legacy is listening because I think this has been probably the most pro-Benjamin Harrison podcast to ever air. So if you're listening, give us a shout. And Dan, thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate it. 

00:48:13,592 --> 00:48:21,472 [Speaker 2]
You got it. And if it doesn't exist, I feel like starting the Benjamin Harrison Society is, is just, uh, 

00:48:22,532 --> 00:48:24,852 [Speaker 2]
weeks away for the 2 of us, Anders. 

00:48:24,852 --> 00:48:28,471 [Speaker 0]
I see Anders taking furious notes. I think he's, uh, he's already working on that. Dan- 

00:48:28,471 --> 00:48:28,841 [Speaker 2]
[laughs] 

00:48:28,841 --> 00:49:23,072 [Speaker 0]
... my thanks to you as well. Really appreciate you coming on. We've been talking to Dan Pushkar, the executive director of Rock Creek Conservancy. So thankful for your time. Thanks so much for joining us. Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we visit with Adam Kramer from the Outdoor Alliance. We learn about existing legislation on wildlife corridors with Defenders of Wildlife, and we return to fly fishing waters with a deep dive on one of the nation's strongest stream access laws and a rally to save that law. Be sure to subscribe to all of our podcasts, including the new separate feed for The Wildline on your podcast player of choice. If you wanna financially support what we're doing, use a little platform called Buy Me a Coffee, which you can find on our website. And if you love what we're doing here, give us a rating and a review on your podcast player of choice. Recommend us to a friend. You know, all the usual things. We love watching our community grow every week. Let's lace up our boots, get to work, and when we do, we'll see all of you on down the trail. 

00:49:23,072 --> 00:49:57,612 [Speaker 3]
The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at Pod Lab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [instrumental music]