Philippe Gamache  0:07  
What's up guys, welcome to the humans of martec podcast. His name is John Taylor. My name is Phil ganache. Our mission is to future proof the humans behind the tech so you can have a successful and happy career in marketing

Philippe Gamache  0:26  
What's up everyone today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Mandy Thompson CEO and co founder of digital reach. Mandy started her career plunging into entrepreneurship launching an advocacy and consulting firm where she ran marketing and sales for three plus successful years. She grew the team to 25 people and crossed 1 million in revenue in the first year alone. She later sold everything she owned and went out on her own traveling the world as a digital nomad, freelancing as a copywriter and a web developer. Along the way, she developed and produced an online course that generated seven figure returns. She co founded after that digital reached the digital agency where she has spent eight years focused on sales and account management before becoming CEO officially, where she spent the last three and a half years growing the agency 300% year over year, no big deal. She's also a member of pavilion and rev genius. She's also a treasure board of directors at the New Mexico psychedelic Science Society. Maddy, thank you so much for your time today. Really excited to chat.

Mandy Thompson  1:26  
Yeah, thanks for thanks for having me.

Philippe Gamache  1:30  
This episode is brought to you by our friends at knack. launching an email or landing page and your marketing automation platform shouldn't feel like assembling an airplane midflight with no instructions. But too often, that's exactly how it feels. NAC is like an instruction set for campaign creation for establishing brand guardrails and streamlining your approval process to knacks no code, drag and drop editor to help you build emails and landing pages. No more having to stop midway through your campaign to fix something simple. Knack lets you work with your entire team in real time and stops you having to fix things midflight check them out@naqt.com That's kn a K and tell them we sent you. This episode is brought to you by our friends at revenue hero. I can't think of anything worse than finding out a lead waited a week for a response from sales. That's why we recommend revenue hero, it's the easiest way to qualify leads based on Form Values or enrich data and route them to the right sales rep. Their product is packed with a bunch of behind the scenes superpowers that ensures qualified leads are assigned to the right reps following your custom round robin rules and sending key data back to your CRM. That means more qualified meetings for your reps. We all know they want more of those. But more importantly, no more waiting time for your potential customers. They back all of this up with the best product support out there offering 24 Five support on Slack Connect for all customers, no matter your pricing plan. So if you want to three extra conversions with the same traffic, go to revenue hero.io And tell them we sent you your sales team will thank you for it. We're we've been doing some research on you watched a lot of your past podcast episodes had the pleasure of watching the recording from matzah Palooza earlier last year. And I also went through a lot of your LinkedIn posts. And I wanted to start off with what I think is one of your most powerful posts and wanted to chat about this idea of embracing your identity at work. The powerful posts that I'm referring to you. Last year, you wrote about being an openly gay female founder, I would love for you to just like talk to the listeners about this turning point that encouraged you to embrace your identity fully in the professional world. And for someone reading your post or listening to the show right now. And they're feeling inspired to start embracing their full selves at work. What would be your first piece of advice for them?

Mandy Thompson  4:00  
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that for all of us, it's a bit of a journey, I guess, especially then when we add on categories where we might feel maybe not necessarily discriminated against, but like, whatever that piece of our identity is that like, Oh, does this hold me back? Or does this count people to rule me out? And so the more layers of that you have, oftentimes, the harder it can be to really embrace things, right. And so it's like, I choose to have a lot of tattoos and so like, that's one thing I have to embrace. We've come a long way in the United States for women, but women still don't get you know, the same opportunities, the same pay all of those things as their male counterparts do. So there's that and then being part of the LGBTQIA plus community there's that right and then there's just the fact that I've never really felt like I fit into any one box and while that can sound really cool and sexy and foreign, like oh, you don't like you can kind of fit it in, in a lot of different places, which I think is true, but it also can leave you feeling like, I don't totally sit in any one of those places either, right? So in one way you can feel like you're a part of a lot of things. But you can also feel like you're a part of nothing a little bit as well, when you're like, Well, I'm not totally like, so into just being a b2b business person. And so like, I'm kind of in that box, not in it completely. And then I'm over here. And I don't really know where I sit. And so I think that number one, it depends on like, how you see yourself in the world and what you think you have to fight for acceptance of. And that varies, obviously, by people's experiences as well, in addition to the things that they predicted that people would judge them for. So I think it starts with, like, what's the most comfortable thing? Because once you start testing the water, I think what you find, and we all find this is that more people are like us than we ever thought were right. Like more people have tattoos like right now you can't see my TED well, you can see the one on my wrist, right. But if I don't live my hand up, you would never guess that right. So we start to realize, oh, there are more people that do that, like you mentioned. And one of my roles that I'm the treasurer of the boards for New Mexico psychedelic Science Society, I did a post last year about that, and about the impact that improving my mental health through psychedelic treatment has had for me, and then I had a number of people reach out to me and either people who themselves were experimenting with that and didn't feel like they could talk to anybody about it, or people who were curious and didn't feel like they could talk to anybody about it. And so I think that as we put ourselves out there and we get a positive response, then it's like, okay, well, let me put this next thing out there. And then you start to realize that you know what, most people are pretty decent, and they'll take me, you know, for who I am. And if they won't, then, you know, probably weren't gonna win that person over anyhow. So I think it is just kind of like, step by step by step leading into it. But it did take time, like when I was before the pandemic, we had been virtual and remote and digital nomadic forever, but people didn't take it seriously. Right. So even even the pandemic, while it was awful, and 99.9% of ways it really did, right for all of us in the workspace, whether we're a business owner or an employee, I think it helped to humanize how our lives are. And for me, it definitely legitimize the, you know, different location, because sometimes I'd be like, Okay, I'm in Thailand right now, how can I not make it look like it's nighttime on this call that like 9am? central time, like, how can I so you don't have to have the conversation with somebody about like, Yes, I can do my job from Thailand, because Thailand has internet, Thailand has desks, it has food and water, it has all the same things, I need to be productive in the United States, it has all of those except, you know, might have higher quality food, depending on your opinions on that easier access to fruit and vegetables. So, so yeah, so like that part of it. And then also, same thing with the appearance. What's interesting is, up until the pandemic, nobody ever really needed to be on Zoom. And so I was largely, like, just my little avatar of a photo, right. And so I never had my camera on, I had blue hair half the time and undercut and like, then suddenly, during the pandemic, we were like, Oh, well, you come on camera. And I'm like, like, I haven't looked at a mirror today, I don't think I'm gonna come on camera right now. But then like the pressure kept coming on. And so that was even a thing of like, oh, well, my physical appearance or so on has had nothing to do with my work. No one sees me. Now I've got to be seen. And that was a whole process of like, ooh, like, I don't really do the whole professional thing. How do I come into this? Where do I fit into that. And part of that, too, is learning where to flex. The last thing I'll say on this video, we're not just talking about how we show up. But I think it's really important how we feel to do our best work. My therapist talks to me about like the Venn diagram of like, our professional self and our personal self. And I think keeping that in mind of like, there has to be a part of it that overlaps. Otherwise, we wouldn't be good people, right? Either we'd never advocate for ourselves in business, because we're just being our nice personal self. Or we'd be soulless people in business and forget our personal self and just be like, well, business is business money is money. And I'm going to do whatever the heck I want without thinking about anything ethical or moral in the process. And so I think when we start to acknowledge there has to be a Venn diagram, and that, you know, like, for me, when I show up to a big accountant, a new meeting, I'm gonna dress nicer than I want to, because that benefits everything to do that. And it doesn't mean I'm selling out on who I am. It just means that in that room, like they're just getting to know me, let me not distract them with tattoos or whatever else about myself that might cause them to be like, Oh, well, I'm not. And I don't think people should question about tattoos, right? But I do think that it does still happen. So it's like, in that room, what am I going to do this moment, and then over time, introducing people to more of like, here's the totality of who I am and getting to see more of that. So it's a long answer to that but hopefully, hopefully answered the question.

Jon Taylor  9:46  
I think it's a fascinating story. And you know, the idea of bringing your authentic self into the workplace and embracing it, you know, and I hope you don't mind the segue of a kind of a question or maybe non sequitur is a better one, but like, I go on link den and I see like the herd, right, the herd is all going the same same direction. And as human beings, we're wired to story and embracing who you are, and not just being like, you know, a vanilla human out there on the internet. Like, there's something passionate about that, that I think really draws people to these types of stories. But I think as a society, we were so concerned with, like, I don't know, if I'm thinking about LinkedIn posts, it's like, hitting the algorithm, you know, I better look the same as everybody else, or I will have the algorithm, you know, favor me, but like, shit, that's the wrong approach. I think.

Mandy Thompson  10:36  
I agree with that. I think so too. And I think that, it can be hard, because, like you said, it doesn't always favor that. But I think if you lean into it over time, like, you find your people, right, and whatever success you're looking for, whether it's, you know, you want people to notice you for new opportunities, whether it's an owner, or an employee, or whatever it is just building your network, I think that you don't have to win everybody over to meet your goals, right? And that's the thing to remember is like, okay, my posts have never gotten, like, you know, 1000 5000 likes or anything like that. Right. But like, I don't need that to reach my goals. You know what I mean? Like, that's not what I'm here for. And so I think it is keeping that in check. So it's like, you know, what the measurement is? Was it helpful? Was it valuable? Was it authentic? If it was if only five people liked it like, well, I guess those are my five people today and by people who appreciated what I had to say, right? Because that reality is we're not right. But I think when we try to too much when you see people in your feed who it's like, oh, my gosh, how do they have 30,000? Followers? Like, yeah, you know, that's, that's their, that their vibe, right? That doesn't doesn't mean anything about your vibe, just because it's not aligning as well with or as much not well, as much with a large audience, right, it might just be that your son's not showing up to the right audience. And so yeah, but I do think that that can play with your head a little bit, when you're communicating out into, you know, into the ether, right, we don't see how people respond to what we say in the moment, we just publish it and hope that it landed. And

Jon Taylor  12:12  
I think I think your advice, like it's his grounding, right? Like Be your authentic self, and trust in a way that your authentic self will reach and connect to other people. So, you know, and, you know, part of the why we're excited to talk to you. I mean, if you bring so much wisdom, and we've looked through your feed, obviously, as Phil mentioned, and what in the lead up of our chat, you gave us some interesting insight about running your marketing, like an agency like for in house. So I want to pivot a little bit to or towards that kind of thing. There's some authentic advice here as well, that I think is interesting. So like, marketing leaders, as we know, have tons on their plate and played from resourcing to making sure you have the right people on staff, like, what lessons can you bring from your agency life in terms of staffing and running your marketing team and having that diverse, unique team that delivers, you know, insane results?

Mandy Thompson  12:59  
Yeah, absolutely. So I think we're this is a really interesting one is that when you're running an agency, essentially, you're running a bunch of marketing teams, right, and you're running, you know, one person might be dedicated to three different accounts. But not all people are going to be dedicated to the same accounts or have the same resourcing. So it's quite a juggling of demands and resources across different contracts and people. And so for us to be mutually accountable. I love the term mutually accountable for us to do that, as an organization for us to be accountable with our team and for them to be accountable and us with us. Managing Resources is so important, right? Because from my side, I need to make sure that what I'm asking people to do is realistic, right. And I need to make sure that the promises we're making the clients are also realistic, right? So if I look at, you know, somebody's resourcing report, and they're fully maxed next week, in billable hours, and I have a client that needs something, we might not be able to deliver that next week, if I promise it to the client. I'm either saying, hey, employee, I don't care if you have to work an extra 10 hours above what's reasonable, or I'm saying quiet, I'm okay with this may be happening, even though we told you it what and so internally, if you can think about it in terms of like, for everything we do, let's standardize how long it takes, let's put it into, you know, you don't have to depending on the size of your team, we use a more advanced agency project management system like teamwork, that's what we use. And I know there are a lot of other ones out there. So you might not need that complexity if you don't have a ton of different projects going on. But depending on the size of your company, you might but I think having an honest look at not only like resourcing and what's actually available and realistic, so you can prioritize. But also what's great is putting your team's rates in there so you can understand how much you know, your whims are costing you, right and you can track your timelines. And so it just gives you a better insight into performance. And I think it's especially important I think this can be applied obviously to any department in any function. But marketing as we all know, sitting Here is one of the most undervalued and underfunded parts of an organization, although super crucial to revenue growth, oftentimes is that you know, like, I think it's because what we do is so complex and so involved that like, it's just hard for people to wrap their minds around it because it is really complex and involves, you've also been on the process of trying to educate someone on marketing. And it's like, well, where what corner of the marketing world should we start from to talk about the million and one things that go into making marketing a success. And so I think it's especially important for marketing departments to run it like an agency and manage your resources, allocate them, be honest about how long things take and the bandwidth you had. That way, you can see things like I said, like cost, or frivolous things that are going on, that are getting in the way of bigger projects, where you can see, oh, we started this and we burned, you know, 150 hours and resources, but it's not done yet. What stopped it from being get getting done, oh, we had this thing come up and this thing come up. And oh, and those things were kind of low value. So basically taking our data driven marketing brains and bringing that into a data driven running your marketing team brain.

Philippe Gamache  16:09  
Very cool. I think that's a an interesting way to think about it, like I was interested in just see where you were gonna go with that. And I wasn't expecting you to break it down like that. But none of that I think about it, I think it's, there's, there's practical elements there in in not getting lost in the weeds where I think a lot of in house teams are just like, lost in the sauce. Like there's so many requests coming in and like, tracking time. And just like using project management tools, I think there's a lot that in house teams can learn from from agencies. So thanks for sharing that I was curious, your thoughts on agency pricing, given you know, all your experience here, front of the show, who was on a couple seasons ago, Cory Haines, he recently launched an agency called Conversion factory. And what I found really interesting and novel and curious to ask your your opinion on was their pricing approach. So they offer three tiers, and it's a monthly subscription pricing. So almost like a SAS for agency. And it has, you know, different tiers of number of requests you can have at a certain amount of time, you get a dedicated marketer, a designer, and you can pause your subscription kind of at anytime, is curious, your, your thoughts there?

Mandy Thompson  17:21  
Yeah, it's interesting, I'm glad that you had, that you had mentioned it, and I took a look as well. And so I think it's like, you have to break that down into different pieces. So number one, from a simplicity standpoint, I think it's great for the customer. The other side of that, though, is that, you know, I looked into like the extensiveness of their services. And I think that, from my experience of managing marketing clients, I think that'd be a little bit hard over time with the value, you know, so you really have to know who your ICP is, who's not going to be breathing down your neck around how many things that I get this month for that, and where's my ROI? Because unlike any other service we provide, right? Because we're full marketing campaigns, online, offline sources, the marketing operations and analytics and all that behind them, and then your overall CRM system and building that out. And what I will say is marketing related activities get the most heat and pressure. And I think that's because marketers get the most heat and pressure, their budgets get the most heat and pressure. And so I think that I'd be interested to see long term, because I love the simplicity of a model like that, right? Like, how do you get, you know, how do you work with people who are starting to demand their ROI? I also think that it would be a little bit hard from a resourcing perspective, I would imagine that with a model like that part of what you're looking at is, you're going to have unused resources, right? That's how subscription models like that with a less descript service, because it doesn't commit to any amount of things a month, right? It's a two to three day turnaround, you get your revisions, but only one request at a time, right? And so if you're only doing one request at a time, like 9000, a month, I think was the middle tier, that's seven assets. And so someone gonna feel like that seven asset gave them that value. They're slow and only get you three or four requests in a month. How are they going to feel about that value? But then how are you going to resource that, right? Because it's hard to predict if you have 40, contracts like that? What if one month, everyone wants something going the entire time and every two to three days, they're sending you something new, so like managing your resources, because that's the biggest thing that I think gets you as an agency is, and again, especially on the marketing time side, the immediacy of the turnaround, and people wanting stuff now now now now now now now, I just think you have to have a lot of like customer service processes around that, which I'm sure they do. So overall, I think it's a good you know, I like having a set model for people like that. That's great. It makes it easy for them to decide. I've seen on the HubSpot side in a somewhat similar way. There's an agency who does a, you know, three different monthly tiers and that gets you X number of credits to go in and Like choose things and a lot of what they do is like landing pages and emails, so somewhat similar items that they're creating for people. But I think their price point is a lot lower. So that would be my only thought is it when you have someone paying you 15,000 a month, consistently, I think that if they don't see high, high, high ROI, but I do think again, being in the creative side is a little bit easier when you get into Ad Management, you get into marketing operations, I think the lifts are a lot heavier and more complex, right? Like if we're setting up a full funnel campaign, and we're doing the mops on that and building everything out. I mean, there are so many variables and people and dependencies there that if that was just ad hoc for us, I think that either our service level would slip or mental health of our employees would flip because it's just, you know, you got to field all those requests and the unpredictability, right of like, how much are they going to ask me for this month? I don't, you know, I don't know, in that type of scenario.

Jon Taylor  20:56  
So in the background, you know, I'm just the wheels are turning for me, I launched my own kind of solo consultancy last year. And one of the things that I wrangled quite a bit myself with, was my pricing like, how do I price myself and then the units of measure, like, the easiest unit of measure for a consultant or freelancer or an agency is billable hours, but sometimes it's not a great expression of the value that you bring in market. So that's what I kind of is interesting about this model, but like, you know, maybe advice, I'm just seeking advice for myself here, I guess a little bit like how I think like, as a marketer, as Phil alluded to earlier, when you're in house, you don't think about your work in terms of billable hours, like you just do work until it's done or not done, then you go home and you take a vacation day, but like when you run your own agency, you don't take a vacation day, you just have billable hours that you owe on the next day you come back in. So for folks who are thinking of making this like transition from like in house to freelance to agency life, like, what is like that billable hour? Like how the heck do you figure out what the value of a billable hour really is? And why is it like such a persistent and common unit of measure when we're talking to clients to to have that value exchange?

Mandy Thompson  22:10  
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And I think that, number one, I think it goes in phases, right? And so number one, when you're first starting out by yourself, I think the very first thing you need to look at is, as you're taking on your first couple of projects, what is my bandwidth? And how much do I need to make right and making sure you're calculating for and that your self employment tax, and all of these other things that are going to come out of that number at the end of the year? Right? So like, how much do I need to make? And so when I think when it's just you, or you and one other person, and you're just kind of getting a feel for like, what are my processes? Like? How am I gonna manage my clients? And the work is just, that's what we did was like, how much do we need to make? Okay, we'll set our prices at that. And we'll start there, right? And then, once you've kind of figured that out, then I think you can start exploring either billable time or value based pricing, I think that value based pricing, when again, when you're really small, I think it works really well. I think the bigger you get, or I mean, I don't think you even have to get bigger, I think we're billable hours are very calming. And why it is so central is that it just helps to make things more predictable. For example, I know that if we hit 20 billable hours per person, consistently, every week that people were at our agency this year, I know that we will just about double our revenue, right? Like, I know that and I can look at every week, how many billable hours and the way that we set it up is you can't take hours that weren't given to a task and how we measure them. So you could log 10 hours to a task. But if it was an eight hour task in our reporting, you only get credit for eight, which pushes people to tell us when they need more time so that we can sell that time. And then because once we have that measure, right, like I know how much each person's our cost me against their total cost of employment as well as, and that includes the amount of time I expect them to not work, right. So and we have different locations where people are people have different vacation habits and also laws within those countries. And so we average that six to eight weeks per employee, right? So I know how much I pay for each hour they actually work and then and the percentage of that hours which I think they'll actually be billable. What do I need to charge for those hours in order to make money right across the entire business. So I think it's really important. Once you get to a bigger size, I think just in the like, like responsibility of keeping the company healthy and knowing like where you're at hours wise and what people are expected to work but I think even at a smaller size again, for me and I like logic a lot logic or like you as a human, I'm very flex, like flexible. So I need the logic to kind of keep my bookends of like where I function within. So for me, I feel a lot more freedom in the business to kind of run around and test different ideas when I have that anchor, right I have that Northstar of like How many hours are people getting each week that are billable and are we healthy or not? I even think as an individual you can look at that hey if I looked down in the next three months and I only have five billable hours on average sold per week I'm not going to be paying my rent or my mortgage soon right so like what do I need to do in terms of billable hours to keep myself busy?

Jon Taylor  25:17  
Yeah, it's a it's a thank you for the answer. I mean, I'm gonna re listen to that answer by the way after after the podcast because I'm you know, the wheels are turning a little bit here is episode

Philippe Gamache  25:28  
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Jon Taylor  27:16  
I want to switch gears a tiny bit and just kind of continue a little bit on this path of an agency but maybe switch gears a little bit and talk to the folks who are in house and who are working with an agency like yourself. So like, just from my own experience last year, like I do web and SEO stuff. So I was doing a ton of migration from Universal Analytics to Google Analytics for my therapist hears about it all the time. Just kidding. But my lesson that I learned here was just like, you know, being working as a consultant as a domain expert, I was finding these Google Tag Manager instances that hadn't been touched since like Indiana Jones, one was was launched like, there was like, I felt like a Raiders of Lost Ark like going in and finding these cobwebs of and the the organization's kept on saying well, yeah, the person who owned this move jobs, and then you checked on LinkedIn, they moved to jobs since the last time they touched it. And so now it's part of my pitch, like when I'm talking to people, like, hey, look like, if you want to work with an agency, you're going to be able to outsource. Yeah, you outsource the expertise. But you're actually potentially keeping the institutional knowledge in a place that's going to be there in 10 years. So how would you approach working with marketing teams? Like what advice would you give for marketers working with an agency to get the most out of their agency long term and building up like a really good relationship?

Mandy Thompson  28:38  
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think first thing that comes to mind is just like agreement around documentation expectations for exactly what you said, right, that everything is in, you know, spreadsheets, or lucid charts, mero boards, whatever is the best form format for documenting that like, obviously, documentation, internally and externally. I mean, we had a client that, you know, they had someone they had already wanted to switch from Marketo, to HubSpot for marketing automation platform. And they had already known that they wanted to do that. But then before they ever got around to it, their Marketo admin who was the only person who knew anything about anything, gave two weeks notice. They have over 500 workflows over 1300 landing pages, 1500 forms, you know, and it's like, it's all of this in spreadsheets and documented like, well, some of it is it's like, yeah, so it's like to that customer like you either gotta spend like 200 grand right now to migrate every single thing while we can talk to him in a like 911 fire drill format, or like, we'll have to kind of call it over time if you don't want to have that price tag, but that's the price right of not being able to you know, and that was some months ago, and it's still not resolved. Right. And so that's where I think marketing because when you don't have that documentation, right people got this amazing system. But then in languishes because that person left and you can no longer you did not have the time for handoff, which is an interesting thing. And us in general and something for all US companies to keep in mind in employment, right is like we are not guaranteed any handoff time, like our South African employees, because we're also incorporated and employ, they're like, they cannot leave without a month's notice. Like, we have to get at least a month. And if we wanted to in contract, we could require obviously, they'd have to agree to that we could require two or three months, right, like I had someone I was recruiting over there for a marketing operations role that had a three month notice period to leave her job. And that is right in her job also has to give her a big notice period, delete, we don't have that in our app will employ the country. And so it is a very, like you really need to document because you do not know. And then I think the other thing with an agency is just getting very clear on process, the number of times that that wants, you know, people want to just jump right into doing things. It's like, let's get our workflow together, like what systems what communication? What's going to happen, because like, you, you know, you guys are working internally, we don't have exposure to all of what's happening there. And so we need to have a good workflow and like, we're not going to work exactly like you do. Because we've got our own team, like you can't expect us to your clients all the time, we're like, oh, well, you come in our project management system. Usually no, because we work in a project management system. And if we work in a different system for every client we have, but then we also have to update our system, then some system will not end up getting updated. And that is not going to work. Right. And so getting that workflow lined out, I think is really important. And I think the other thing, we fall into this a lot are used to not as much anymore. But I think when you hire an agency understand what you hired them for, because so often people are like, you know, they buy Ad Management Services, right? And then it's like, well, I don't think you're driving our marketing strategy enough. It's like, well, that's what a CMO does, like, you didn't pay me to be your CMO, you paid us, you know, to manage ads, which is what we're doing, like, if you would like us to offer that we can add that as a service. But no, I know, it's what we find the most, especially with earlier stage companies that don't have a full marketing department is like they're expecting you to be everything. So we are very clear in our proposals. But I think as a customer, be very clear what your expectations are, too. Because the reality is no one wins. When two months into the agreement, I'm unhappy because the customer is trying to get way more out of us than we build for. And they're unhappy, because they're not getting what they want from us, right. Like, nobody wants to be in that. So I just think like setting expectations. It really that's the whole theme, right? Set expectations around documentation around workflow and like, like ask the agency questions like so if I need this is this included? Like if it's not clear to you in the way that the agency writes their services out, because we might write it in our, our best way for measurement, like, ask those questions, so you can make sure it's all covered. And the last thing would just be like, be willing to pay for what you need, right? Like good work does not come cheap or easy. And so if you want more, the last thing you want to do in a services relationship is try to beat people up overpriced, I loved we had this buying process last year. And like we were providing the services, there was also a software sale. So we were in the sale with the software company as well, right? The client treated us like gold through the process, because he knew right like, I'm gonna be working with you every week after this thing did not beat us up over price was like actually, I think we might need more consulting hours. Why don't you up that by an extra, you know, 2030 hours so we make sure we have enough. The software company, totally different tone with them totally different, like beat up on price. And I think that's smart. Right? Like, you don't need to deal with the software people every week. Right? Those are not humans. That's why software is such a valuable business to be it right because humans don't do the work computers do the work. on the agency side. Humans do The Work Pay the humans be willing to pay the human, all the humans if you need.

Philippe Gamache  34:00  
It's great advice, man. Yeah, I love the point about good work is expensive, especially when you're trying to like cram three months into two weeks notice before the person is leaving, but I want to pull on this like documentation, especially in like whiteboarding diagramming tools because I know you you're a big fan of this. You said you're you're a big fan of logic. And you've actually joked I think this was during your matzah Palooza, talk on running an A B test on yourself. So like either jumping into the automation tool right away and like building something that's kind of fresh in your head and seeing what happens versus the be or the control test of it is building it out on a whiteboard or a diagramming tool first taking the time to like think through it all the steps. If This Then That and then you build it in, in your automation tool. So would love for you to unpack that for the folks.

Mandy Thompson  34:57  
Yeah, and that's an interesting One, two, because I think it's also very behaviorally driven, right? Like we do psychometric behavioral testing on everybody that applies to work with us. And we know what profiles do well at certain things. And so I'll come back to that at the end. But I do think, yeah, so I have done tests and like with the, you know, oftentimes what I do, and this ties into the behavioral thing that I like to just jump in, because that's what motivates me is the idea of getting something done. But then I'll jump into something, I'll get going, like, oh, gosh, I can't hold all this in my head, I have to shoot or like, I just ran into a problem. I got to draw it out. Right. So for me, my path is usually I jump right in. And then at some point, I have to back out in diagram, but for me, it's good to jump right in, because that's what motivates me if I had to diagram first, you know, it's good to know thyself, right? I might not ever get started, because I'm like, Yeah, but I just want to build things I don't want to like test it out. I've got this fun idea. Let me just like jumped in the tool. So but I think for a majority of people and myself included, even though I don't like it, when I diagram things out, I build something better. And it takes me less time, right? Like I talked about this last year at inbound, I did a session on building an ATS applicant tracking system within HubSpot, the solution I focus a lot on because I think that HubSpot is a great place to build it, because it just works really well. And then if you're not a recruiting firm, why are you paying for another piece of software that does that if you don't need other features in it, and so I love it. So like, when I taught that session, a lot of what I focused on wasn't just how to build that specific solution, but like how to build right, so starting out, not even with like, I want to build this workflow automation. And let me chart that out. But honestly, like, what is it I'm trying to accomplish? Let's say you're working in a tool like Marketo, or HubSpot, or you know, Salesforce iterable, whatever it may be, what is it I'm trying to do? And what are all the things? Okay, this is everything I'm trying to do. Great. Okay, what are all the tools I'm going to need to use to do this, right, like when I did the applicant tracking system, and like, Alright, I'm going to need forms and landing pages and custom properties and workflow automations, and the meeting links and smart content and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So then I know like, okay, now I know all the tools I'm going to be dealing with. Now let me actually create the process schematic. Now, let me label underneath each step, what tools are gonna go into it? Now? Let me go and figure out the specifics. Now let me go and actually put the order of operations in but I'm going to build it right. So we've all been there where we're like, I'm gonna make this amazing thing. And then you're like, Oh, I started on the landing page. Oh, that's right. I need the properties. I need the form. Oh, yeah. I don't have the properties for the form. Oh, I need and then you're just like, you know, you're spinning because you're not making any progress. And I think a lot of the behavioral types in marketing operations, the folks that are good, they're progress makers. Right. And so it's like slowing down to speed up. So I guess to wrap that up, yes, I do think that some of us have a tendency to want to jump right in the tool, I think you're always my experience has been documenting always speeds things up and makes it more efficient. However, if you need the jump, start to just jump in, because that's how you are wired. Like, don't cite that either. Because, you know, as long as you have the discipline to realize, like, alright, this thing is now bigger than me. And I need to, like, I need to do better with this, you know, get there and document it. But I do you know, yeah, I live by lucid, I think it's a great way to plan things and especially like so that handoff making other people understand what it is you're talking about. Because to all of us, when we have an idea or solution, it's super clear. Other people are like, eyes are glazing over, like what are you talking about? And then you show him a picture? And it's like, oh, yes, we're all on the same page. Now, this makes sense.

Philippe Gamache  38:29  
Yeah, I totally agree. I, I see myself in a lot of what you were saying there, like I see the value in first, drawing it out and like trying to think through all the potential like mishaps ahead of time, but like you still don't catch all of it until you're actually building it out. And you're running QA on it or even like, you know, fake test records on it. And then you see a couple of things that you didn't think of so like, it's always been a back and forth for me like the first diagram is never the end piece until you actually build it. You see the results of it, and then you come back to it and tweak it. But it does get unwieldy like especially like at Monster Palooza, the one that you built, combining Zapier and drawing that out on on lucid was was pretty big, but I'm sure it wasn't the biggest one that you've built. But it was super cool. Like I wanted to give you kudos on making a live demo part of your talk is I find that incredibly brave. There's the most folks who were just going for slides but I was like, okay, Mandy is actually like going on and Okay, while we're building stuff and Zapier live right now. So kudos to you there but you walked through so for the folks that that didn't get to see it. It was a complex set of automations using Zapier and laying it out and lucid first. But one of the steps that stood out to me that I thought was really cool is this idea of analyzing the sentiment of an email using GPT and updating the lead score of that person based on the output From GPT. So based on that, and I'm sure there's like maybe some other ones that you didn't walk folks through, but like, what are others that you're plus GPT automations that you've built for clients that have blown them away? Maybe in a in a similar fashion as this one? Yeah,

Mandy Thompson  40:16  
no, I appreciate that. And it was a fun solution. And that's another example of it. First, I just dove right in and then I ran into the issue of you can't just update lead scoring in inside of Zapier because that property has a right it has a different framework than a traditional like text, right property. So that was when I was like, Okay, now I have to draw this because now my solution needs a little bit more to it, because I can't just update this, I actually need to create another property that's updated that will then update lead scoring. So I need to plan for this right. So but yeah, another thing. So something that we're actually working on right now for a client or a political action fine. And so those are super fun projects to work on. They have some of the most complex marketing operations communication operations out there, because the data has so much more meaning, right? So like when we're optimizing, for example, a Google search engine marketing campaign. Yeah, we're optimizing for performance. But we're also learning by which search terms and keywords come up the most like what we need to message in our other campaigns and what's even resonating for things like canvassing activities or, or phone mags beyond just like, what's working is the keyword to get clicks and conversions down the line. Right. And so super fun stuff there. But what we're working on is there's a specific campaign that has to do with kindergarten eligibility age and that see, and so the action we're driving people towards, is to sign a petition. But then what we're doing from there is saying like, Okay, would you also be willing to send a, you know, on, we'll send it on your behalf a physical letter to, to your legislator who you know, is overseas, your district, and then asking them to just put a little bit of their thoughts and then using chat GPT to generate a full, more expanded message to then using a token, plug that in right stored on the contact record, plug it into a template, which is then connected for posts, validox, so that we can just ship a physical letter to the to the legislator every time somebody completes the petition so that we double up the impact we're having for that particular issue. So that one was a fun one, because it's like, people aren't going to write much. And if we send a legislator, like one sentence that might not have correct grammar, maybe they won't pay a lot of attention to it. But if we can give them three or four paragraphs that are well written, even if they can identify that it's, you know, that it's aI letter that came in from that constituent and the constituent Israel, right, you don't know if the constituent constituent used GPT, or whatever tool to write at, right, people are doing that all the time to write emails and messages. So yeah, that was a fun use case for it.

Jon Taylor  42:50  
One of the things I love hearing about like, when we're talking to folks, like you just blew my mind a little bit with your use case on GPT. Like, I've been using GPT for a year, like eight hours a day, way too much. And like, every time we talk, it's like there's new use cases, like, last year, I felt like we were in this massive balloon of the hype cycle where it was just every time you talk you like, Oh, if I'm not using GPT. And all these cases, like I'm behind behind, I feel like this year is coming back down to the reality a little bit more. But I also am noticing that things are getting, like we're getting into some really interesting use cases, is that what you're seeing when you're working with your clients, like people are starting to be like, Okay, it's not just hype, but it's not as crazy as I thought it was. But there's some really cool use cases here.

Mandy Thompson  43:30  
I think so. And I think you described that really well, there's a bit of a leveling from like, we're no one's gonna work anymore. And we're all going to be out of work next week, because of AI to like, you know, like that base level of like, we're just gonna write social media posts and generate social media images on mid journey, right? Like, I think there's a happy medium in there. And it's actually interesting yesterday, I met with somebody locally here in Albuquerque, which doesn't happen that often. But we do have a lot of industry, just not everyone, not everyone knows that. But he developed an AI tool that like works as an extension of you. So like, you can have it read a book, and then apply the knowledge of that book to like a paper your white writing or a project you're working on, or that kind of stuff. So you start to see more of these advanced use cases coming on. But I think it's something I'm really curious about. And I think, you know, it's probably already being built, but something we're working on, internally, I'd like, right, the whole idea when the last update for dev day came out with jet chat GPT or open AI, which was, you know, being able to create your own little GPT right, and so, something that we're experimenting with is like bringing all of the different data in from different data sources for client campaigns, which takes a lot of in this gets into what's going to be important is prompt engineering, right? Okay, you get all these data points in Okay, well, how the heck does the GPT know how to not what not like basic stuff like if the conversion rate good or is the session duration, good, but stuff like that we're having to use pivot tables and other complex analysis practices or how can we teach over time a GPT to understand what it is we're looking for, and for it to serve as that like, ongoing analytical brain because for me, right, like I'm at the end with the team working on a campaign during a jam session and everything, but like week later on, be honest, I don't remember what we talked about a week before, there's so many things that have come across my desk, so many meetings that I've been in, like, I have no idea, you know, it's like a new refresher, that doesn't, it doesn't pick up week, but quickly, but Right, like, I don't remember it all. So like, but a GPT can, you know, can remember exactly where you left off in what you were looking at. And so, I think there's going to be a lot of because, like, that's one of the hardest human processes in marketing, right? Like, we all talk a lot about data, we collect a lot of data, we visualize a lot of data, but the decisions we have to make, and that we have to live with, that we make are hard, you know, like, what is what is going to make the biggest impact, like I think I know, but like, there are kind of infinite variables to knowing, right? Like my brother in law does, you know, data science work at mindshare, and they're building custom algorithms for companies, right, which is essentially what we're trying to do with AI. So I think that really what's happening is like, we can kind of train these algorithms on our own without having to know how to write them. But for our non, you know, fortune 100 brands of the world who can't afford custom algorithms from companies like mine. Sure, you know, but so that's something somewhere that we're looking just to, you know, for our team, and it's not that you don't still you need people who know how to ask great questions. But you don't necessarily have to have the person who knows how to extract that data or visualize it, because you can get that from the GPT.

Philippe Gamache  46:46  
Very cool. I love the way that you you broke that down. There's so many use cases that that keep popping up that you hear about, we've had a lot of guests on the show that that share some cool use cases. So yeah, thanks for thanks for sharing that. We talked a little bit about lead scoring and how you use the chat JPD to kind of analyze the sentiment and tweet the lead score there. Something you also wrote about that you're big on is intense data, and combining intent data with marketing campaigns and first party data and third party data. I think you'll agree that this intent data isn't perfect, though. And in my opinion, it's actually far from it. So I'd love to get your take on this like, just like maybe arguing both sides, the blind spots within 10 data for me and knowing about them, are they worth the investment in the first place. And so I'll give you my arguments. And then a curious your take there like personally, I don't ever use review sites like GT crowd. And not because I don't like to team but like, I think you could say stuff about their practices and how they reward people to do reviews and stuff like that. But if I'm looking for a tool, like I'm probably going on a slot committee, or I'm asking colleagues and people that I trust about how they've used that tool, or like if they have suggestions or stuff like that, I work remotely. So when I'm browsing vendors sites and looking through documentation, they can't reverse my IP to match it to a company name, at least not easily. If we assume that you no more than 10% of it is accurate in the first place. And none of these, like tracking tools are being used for people that live in the year in Europe, and in a lot of countries that like blocked this, this privacy regulations, there's a huge lift on making use of this data also, like let's ignore, like all those arguments. And let's say that, like we trusted 100%, there's many concerns around the implications of turning this into a system if the accuracy is met. Right, and, you know, not gonna harp on the whole argument around privacy. But like, you know, awareness here is totally growing. And there's a lot of issues with Google backtracking a little bit like the cookie stuff, but none of these companies do this type of stuff with real consent. And this idea of like, tracking behind the scenes is dying with like all these third party cookies. So I'm really curious your take there. And if you agree with our our friend, Mark Tunis, who says that we have to approach marketing with humility and bad personalization is worse than no personalization.

Mandy Thompson  49:19  
I did. I did see that as well. And I, I absolutely agree. And I think first thing I would say is the point you made about the lift. I think, if you are wanting to use intent data, and you have to walk in, like let's pretend that it's good or has some value, we'll start there and then kind of talk about, you know, the accuracy, the lack of transparency on like, you know, every time I have a conversation with one of those providers, I'm like, Okay, so first party publisher sites. So you're saying that these sites are telling you who visit like and how do they know who like, just what like, where is this all tracking down to right, but let's pretend that the data itself is not a problem. We have to be honest about what the data gives us which if you've ever looked at intent data for anyone who hasn't Right? Like it the, you know, I've worked with Bombora, for example, for ads, budgets, you know, gigantic spreadsheet of like 6000, you know, categories, taxonomy terms that you need to look at that are none of them usually spot on for what your customer offers, right? So understanding that it is it's kind of like when you're making an SEM campaign, like keywords versus like search terms, right, like, it's a bunch of keywords, like, who knows what the search term is attached to that keyword when you extrapolate that out. And so, I think that knowing that it doesn't mean that there is no use, and obviously, there are different sources. But I think that you have to be honest with yourself about what it tells you, which is for the for, you know, companies who we can track across their domain, and we have that capability based on how their networks are set up and whatnot, like, they might be looking for something into, you know, similar to what we offer, right, like, that's what you have to go into it with is, you might they might be interested. So one of the biggest mistakes I see is people going directly to like, meta bottom funnel. And like, I think you can vote those people in a mid funnel audience. But I think you also need to put them in a top funnel audience and you need to test and see where they're actually at, don't assume that they're in the consideration stage, just because just because you have that data. So I think that's the first thing they have to operationalize that like what's going to be the measurement? When do we you need to decide at what frequency do I remove them from this audience, because they are not actually at that stage, or they're not actually interested at all. So I think that's the first thing is like, know what the data, know what it is and what it is not, and operationalize it, and know when to like, how that's going to impact how you're putting people into different ICP tiers. And when they surface, the sales based on all of that, so you have to operationalize all of that into your overall marketing system. Or else, I think it's gonna be really hard to know if it's working or not, and to treat it appropriately if it is, in fact working. And what we all know sitting here is that very, very, very, very few companies, such a small percentage have their marketing properly operationalized, this kind of like we were talking about earlier with running your marketing team, like an agency, they're under resource, and especially in marketing operations. We see this all the time, like, people want all the shiny things, but they don't want to invest in the headcount or the outside help, whatever it's going to take to have it. So I think that's probably the biggest blocker for most people from using it. But then I think that what you have to do, like you mentioned, is test it in, like, are you actually getting, it's going to increase your audience cost quite a bit, or you're paying for it separately on a totally different platform. Right? And so, are you actually getting more conversions? Right? Is it speeding up time to close? Is there any impact in that, which again, ties back to the first point, you have to have that system to know if it's working, if you don't have a system to know if it's working, I would recommend not spending the money on it. But then I also think you have to remember is like, that's not all that you need, right. And so I think there's a lot more power in using, you know, like audiences from like live rare for the other audience services that just get you more data about the people you're targeting, than you're getting from the platforms themselves natively. So I have more value in that things like install data, right? Like, I think that's super helpful. Obviously, if you have, you know, like, we had a client where, you know, one of their big selling points was the integration with Xero. So it's like, yeah, knowing who uses zero, who's also in the right industry, and all these other targeting parameters, that actually really helps us because that's a low hanging fruit win for them, as they're kind of making their name in this in this particular space. So yeah, like you said, I think it's layered, you've got to put a lot into it. And again, I think that with the move away from third party cookies, again, that's going to bring a big question in that whole industry around like, so if it's your first party cookie, but you're selling me the data, and it's not even your first party cookie. It's the publishers, like how is that going to be regulated and adjudicated as far as like, you can or cannot do this? Right? Like,

Philippe Gamache  53:55  
it's a black box? Don't worry about it. Yeah, exactly. And the

Mandy Thompson  53:59  
worries are, you know, which I think is a good thing, right. I do think as much as you know, we all loved the golden age of marketing, where we could have like every view, you know, view through window for 30 days of an ad. And like, we could attribute everything within an inch of its life like that all came at a cost to write like, and also like marketing wise, we all kind of, I think focused on what we could, you know, capture and didn't focus on the things that we couldn't easily capture. So I think it made us a little bit like singularly focused in marketing and forgetting about other tactics and channels that might not be as you know, to the click measurable, but are still very valuable for our overall efforts. But also just like what's happening with all that data, and how are we, you know, using that data, like children and teens and even like our individual selves, because like we're all learning, you know, we all like to think as humans and I think especially in American culture, that we are so in control of our minds and what we think and what we do. The reality is through research and science, we're not and we're starting to see that in our you know, show up in ours. ad so I'm not against even as a marketer and ad that makes me a bad marketer. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't have a problem with that stuff going away for the kind of greater good of society in like, less is more I think in this case, less is more marketing worked for decades and decades before we had all of this. So I think we can keep figuring it out.

Philippe Gamache  55:21  
100% No, no, I appreciate your thoughts there. I'm actually kind of happy we didn't start off with because I feel like we could have went down in a bunch of tangents and probably wouldn't have covered some of the awesome wisdom that you shared earlier. So thanks for that. Mandy. JT, you want to take it away for the last one? Yeah, I'm

Jon Taylor  55:36  
five. Sorry, I'm still just finding so much in your answer. Because I've got this huge bone to pick with attribution. Like I love attribution. I love reporting and stuff, but like, good old fashioned marketing, like as a creative human being, sometimes I just want to make emotional connections and not obsess about measuring everything. Like that's what we are as marketers. We are a little bit of the arts and crafts department. Yeah, we're accounting to but yeah, so I really vibe with that. I hope some of our listeners do. Look, the time is completely flown by for me, but we do have one question we ask all of our guests, so I want to make sure we get it in. You're an entrepreneur, a CEO, a digital nomad, a leader, a coach, a public speaker, an avid hiker expert snowboarder, one question we ask all of our guests is, how do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance all the things you're working on while staying happy?

Mandy Thompson  56:25  
Good question. And I would love to say that I have all of that figured out. And I don't. But I think some things that are important to remember is like you mentioned something they love to do for fun, I love to be in the mountains and be outside. And so I think just setting boundaries. And even it can be especially hard when you're a business owner. I think also if you're an employee, and you're in a you know, role where people don't respect your boundaries, I think it can be just as hard to, but I think that like it is so important to have that balance and to just the word, like so much of it, right? This kind of tied back to the concept at the beginning is like learn who you are and how you operate and let that be okay, right? Like, I know how many meetings I could have in a row before I start to get super anxious. And I know what my point is a kind of no return where I'm going to be like I am done, I'm so done with today, I'm going to do nothing else. As soon as my calls are over, I'm, you know, I'm away from this desk, right. And so I think that like knowing those limits and having it be okay, I think especially if you're like I'm very, like, you know, go getter type a person, it can be easy to just always be like, more or more. But, you know, kind of like with the marketing thing, less is more sometimes. So I think that just being very honest with yourself, and kind of like with your identity, identity getting used to being like, you know, I'm going to be, we're going to Italy to go snowboarding in March. And I already have it in my signature for all clients and everyone like, she knows this this date range, I'm not going to be around. So like I'm telling you now, don't try to bother me, I'm not going to answer you because I've got to be well, also, and then not let other people that idea of well impact yours are like we have clients or people who work with that never take holidays off. I'm like that must suck. We take holidays here. Like we love our holidays, we take them. We have people all over the worlds there's holidays, like every week that we're like observing through different team members. But like, and I think that's like saying, you know, also, not only taking time off, but doing things that really fill your cup, you know, like it would be so easy. Some weekends, like, oh, we'll just go to the brewery on Friday and just kind of like, hopped around on Saturday. And it might be more work to drive up to Taos and go snowboarding. But it's like, you have it, I feel so much more fulfilled when I have that busy weekend and I'm out in the mountains, and I was totally in the zone out there. You know, doing my thing. I'm gonna feel way better, even if it made my weekend busier. So yeah, I just think balance and boundaries. And also, like, I can't recommend enough, like, go into therapy. You know, like, that's a big help. And also like finding what you need to keep your balance. You know, like, if you don't sleep well, naturally, and you need to do something about your sleep, like, figure that out whatever way that you can in the state that you live with, depending on what medicines and natural options are available to you. And always keep it for your mental health. I think that all of us regardless of like what we do and how our lives are like, we live in such a difficult world mentally for what we are as human beings, in my opinion. And I think that, you know, if we're not working on our mental health in some way, it's probably not getting better and quite probably getting worse because life's hard, man, it is right. Like we got all these existential things we're worried about, we got work, we got bills, we got, like, give that attention because like, you know, my, you know, my therapy appointment every week. It's something that I would never move on my calendar. You know, I know that time is available for a meeting. No, it is that time is absolutely my time so I can have someone else telling me like, you know, give me another perspective on the way that I'm viewing things that I can only see it for, you know, the way I can see it.

Philippe Gamache  59:58  
Such an awesome answer, Andy there There's so much wisdom in there. And almost takes me back to your initial point about the Venn diagram between like your personal identity, your work identity. But then like there's almost another circle there about your mental health and like prioritizing that piece of it. And yeah, so, so powerful. Thank you so much for sharing. And thank you so much for for being here. Appreciate your time and all the stuff you shared folks. super grateful for it. Well, we'll share out links to your site and folks and follow you on LinkedIn. Because there's a goldmine of resources and posts out there. I'll, I'll be one of those five people liking your posts. So appreciate all you're doing for the community. Thank you so much. Yeah,

Mandy Thompson  1:00:40  
I appreciate y'all having me prepared, like had great questions. And I also cannot believe that an hour has gone by Wow, this is

Philippe Gamache  1:00:50  
amazing. Thanks again.

Philippe Gamache  1:00:59  
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