Talking Biotech Episode 400

Talking Biotech Past, Present and Future

Featuring Joe Rogan, Dr. Chad Finn, Dr. Maxine Thompson, Aoi Senju, and Vern Blazek
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[00:00:00] Hi everybody, and welcome to this very special episode of The Talking Biotech podcast, episode 400 in the beginning of year nine, eight years in the box. And so how do you commemorate such an event? And it seems like an appropriate time to maybe take a look backwards and talk about where this all began.

Cause a lot of you don't know the story. The Talking Biotech podcast really had its roots in the early, I guess you would say, 2000 and teens, whatever we call that decade. Podcasting was a thing. It was just getting started and there were a few people who were getting involved in this space and everybody told me, this is a medium for you.

You need to be involved in podcasting. I said, okay, well, whatever that is. But most of all, what I said was, there's no way that I have time to participate in generation of [00:01:00] any particular media. I was, uh, an associate professor at a busy university. I had a lab full of people. I had projects that were burning on multiple levels, uh, grants that were burning on multiple levels.

Uh, there was no time for a podcast, especially when it took a learning curve and new technology to get me started. But most importantly, it wasn't about not wanting to be able to do it, it was, it was hard for me to justify spending my time on some sort of communications project when I had so many other responsibilities.

As a associate professor throughout my career, I've been very responsive and I've always tried to do a really good job when I do service work for the discipline. And when you do a good job, people give you more work to do and people kind of expect you to be available and ready to roll. And so that's where I was.

And [00:02:00] I never said no to anything and it would be very difficult for me to add this idea of a podcast and then start turning down projects for the discipline. And I can imagine people saying, well, you didn't have time to review this proposal, but you had time to do a stupid podcast. And that just kept going on in my head that they would view science communication as a trivial, non-necessary bobble of my, of my appointment that, um, I shouldn't waste my time with.

And a number of faculty told me that senior faculty said, I don't know why you waste your time with this. So what, that as a background, there is absolutely zero incentive to do it. Now let's move forward to about 2014 and you're starting to see more people emerge in podcast media. You're seeing large, uh, acts like the [00:03:00] Joe Rogans and Adam Adams and other comedians work into that space and have very successful podcasts that were independent of.

The other organizations they were attached to. And I said, this is really time to get in. This is when I need to be doing this. But I had the same problem. I couldn't do it as Kevin Fulta on a podcast because you would always have somebody saying, it's wasting my time. And this is back when I used to listen to other people.

So, uh, I decided I could do it if I did it under a pseudonym. And Verne Blaze was born. So the idea was, was to do a podcast that was science-based and to have a science-based factual conversation, but do it under a pseudonym, not as me, but as somebody else, as an established veteran broadcaster who is into the podcast medium from [00:04:00] overnight am radio.

And there was a whole story behind it, mostly ripping off the story of Art Bell. Now, if you know Art Bell, art Bell and his, uh, predecessor, or his predecessor, George Norie, I don't know if post assessor is a word, they had an overnight show, or they would talk about psychics and aliens and Bigfoot and all of these kinds of phenomena that were not terribly real.

And they had a lot of anti GMO stuff on there. And I, I used to listen all the time. I was trashed on there all the time. Uh, it was along the same lines of Infowars, right? That overnight, um, you know, crack pot, uh, drinking, cleaning your guns up late, listening to the radio, tell you about how, um, you needed to be packing more food in your Patriot bunker.

This is the, this is the radio show that I attempted to parize as Verne Blazek. But who was Verne Blak? Uh, apparently he came from Tillamook, uh, [00:05:00] Oregon. I had been out there once. I said he lived on a house on, uh, a certain route that I remember being on, and, uh, had the whole background backstory of, uh, Verne living in Tillamook.

And, you know, that was the story. And the rest of it really went after, uh, art Bell, who lived in Pahrump, Nevada, which is outside of Las Vegas, up in the mountains, much like Ch Tillamook is to Portland. And the idea was he was living near, um, art Bell was near area 51. Verne was near area 52, uh, Verne, uh, would, uh, it was the, it was the science power hour, but never really exceeded 30 minutes.

There were a lot of jokes in this, a lot of, uh, tongue in cheek humor. I mean, anybody who was halfway there would realize this was a joke, that it was funny parody. That was, uh, taking science seriously. So a parody host, real science, that [00:06:00] was the formula. His voice, uh, would be me, would be very easily recognized, so I would have to change it a little bit.

And audio processing allows me to do that. Now, how could I disguise my voice? Well, when I was growing up in Chicago on wgn, they had a famous broadcaster named Cliff Mercer. And Cliff Mercer was the guy who when, uh, the, the member, how you'd be watching tv. And then the transmitter would shut off, happen all the time.

And you'd get that chest pattern on the screen that like bars of different colors, and then it would go back to tv. And he would always say, he would be the guy who with his voice would say, we now refer to, I Dream of Judy starring Barbara Eden and Larry Hagman already in progress. And he had like a, a lisp that a very, very pronounced lisp and a very distinct voice, and I think I [00:07:00] can play a little bit of 'em right here.

Secretary of State, Edmond Demus is calling on America's NATO allies to impose economic sanctions against Iran. After a Brussels meeting with NATO officials this morning, musky said Iranians must learn that they will have to pay a price for their hostage policy. Iranian officials claim two American men are in a prison in Tehran, charged with participating in last month's failed rescue mission and Iranian president, Bonnie Slaughter, says an international conference will be held in Tehran in early June to prove Iran's claims of American crimes against that nation.

So that is what I was trying to emulate. And, uh, and I could do it with some voice processing, and I did it and, and I interviewed some people and had a great time doing it,

of the cutting edge of science and society, critically [00:08:00] analyzing the controversy, engaging the experts, and sorting through thes and charan to the scientific truth. What does the evidence tell us? That's what Ver Lazer wants to know. Ladies and gentlemen, bird Well, power Hour with Hope coming from a very special kind show.

Today, I was very fortunate to be able to do this remotely. Uh, coming to you from Fresno, California, uh, you're in Fresno. I was visiting, uh, somebody, an old friend who's having some health problems and, uh, just kind of sometimes you're in the right place at the right time. Uh, sometimes it's a good story to share with you.

I was revisiting a friend, uh, affectionately known as Moon Shadow. Uh, [00:09:00] over the years, our paths have taken us to different places, but I do wax fondly back in our time. It's free spirits of the late 1960s, early seventies. Uh, we hitchhiked across the gray land, touched America and all of her tingly parts.

Uh, uh, we left our adventures without much money. Uh, lots of time. And a large novelty bag of ganja. It was an optimistic sense of adventure. Uh, we were a couple of long hairs, uh, really shunned and unwelcome in most places. Yet we found that the hearts and minds of Americana, uh, were willing to embrace.

Our ideas across this great land and moon shadow and I have drifted apart over the last several years, especially, uh, during my overnight adventures. Um, he always has been a little more interested in mystics and psychics and conspiracies and suspicion of the man. I'm becoming a little more, a [00:10:00] little more of a critical thinker.

I came across him, uh, recently just, uh, revisiting him as he recuperates from an illness and he, unfortunately he's not well, but, but improving and, uh, he's relatively certain that the disease he has came from GMOs in his diet and environment. So I'm skeptical about learning, and I understand his concerns and the concerns of others.

And personally, you know, I'm a little, little tweaked by the yuck factor of it all. I'm not necessarily convinced, but I, uh, I'm not moved by their evidence. I remain open, and as luck would have it, I'm staying in a hotel, uh, here in Fresno where I met a film crew, uh, in the breakfast nook. As the turns out, they were shooting a documentary on G M O technology.

The film is called No, G M O. [00:11:00] And I was prepared to grill them on their science. And you see the confusion that was caused by their title. So today, interview with no G m o, the movie with director Nick Syke.

Hello, this is Verne Blasik with the Verne Blasik Science Power Hour, and, uh, lucky to wake up this morning in Fresno, California. Raisin capital of the world. Uh, it's here that the grapes are dried into the small mortals that we pack into tiny boxes and think of as food for kids and our oatmeal. I'm ver Blasik in the Fern Blasik Science Pot.

I'm fortunate today to have been walking through a hotel lobby and it started to get a little bit weird when I thought I read about this book about bedbugs, and I thought, what a great topic for Verne Blasik to cover. So I reached out to the [00:12:00] author who is Journalist Brooke bll, who was, uh, wrote for Popular Mechanics and had frequent stuff online.

I thought that was kind of cool. So I wrote her an email as Verne Blasek saying, come on the podcast and talk about bedbugs. And they never heard anything back from her. Later that summer, I think it was 2014, I was at a conference in Davis, California and she was there and, uh, I talked to her a little bit about stuff and then I think she went with me and a group out that night to get some drinks or whatever, and we were talking and um, and we had a little bit of a discussion that was a little bit, I don't wanna say heated, but she was very much set in the ways about, well, you can never can accept money from a corporation and be a.

Considered objective and I disagreed. I said, well, it's all in the science, it's in the data. And she said, absolutely not. You're tainted forever. Once. And this is all before the big blow up that I had with [00:13:00] my university. She said, well, once you've been uh, funded, you never have credibility, blah, blah, blah.

And I vehemently disagreed. And we went back and forth and, you know, it wasn't nasty or anything like that, but it just was, uh, a difference of opinion. And just to kind of maybe make amends with her later on, I said, why don't you join me on this podcast? I do. Where I do it as a pseudonym, Verne Blak, you know, and then the lights kind of connected in her head.

Well, someone asked me to do this before, but why are you doing this as a pseudonym? And she didn't know the whole story obviously. So right after, uh, I started doing the Verne Blazek Science Power Hour, I was gaining a lot of momentum in the discussion space around genetic engineering. I was on lots of, uh, podcasts.

I was on lots of, uh, articles. I was considered maybe a pretty pronounced expert. And this is, uh, um, 20 14, 20 15. I'm [00:14:00] getting a lot of traction, a lot of visibility. And that means the folks who want you gone are really focusing on you. And they really wanted to make sure that I was, uh, discredited. They were looking for anything they could look for.

And this is about when all the FOIA stuff started. So for those of you who don't know the story, I'll give you the short version. Uh, the, uh, US right to know, uh, an organization that just was really out to slander scientists, uh, captured something like 5,500 pages of my email and they went through and created stories that were not necessarily accurate.

Um, my university had received a donation from Monsanto, uh, for $25,000 to a science communication program that would allow me to, uh, add a day to presentations I was giving to hold this thing, put out coffee and donuts, uh, pay for a cheap hotel room and a rental car, you know, that kind of thing. Uh, no money to me, um, all to enable me to teach [00:15:00] this biotechnology and communication program.

So that was something that was, uh, stewing in the background. I was on with Dr. Drew. I was on with Car Santa Maria. I was on with Joe Rogan and it was a really, really good time. Alright, uh, I'm here with, uh, Kevin Fulta. Kevin, you are a scientist, a GMO foods expert, and if there is one subject that gets beaten to death online and in conversation and butchered, I I, I've heard many conversations that I had, I just walk away from at parties where people started talking about what GMO foods do and what's going to happen and all the horrible things.

GMO foods are probably one of the most confusing and also one of the most hated things in, in the world today, but also one of the most common and most misunderstood, right? I mean, almost everything. There's a. Dil [00:16:00] Degrass Tyson did a video about this where he was kind of explaining like the term GMO foods, like virtually everything you see, including things that are quote unquote organic at a supermarket, have been modified in some way in order to prolong their shelf life in order for them to taste better, including corn and tomatoes and to, and oranges and you name it.

Yeah. And I think that's the big problem is that, and you frame this very well, the, the problem is that we confuse this idea of gmo, which is kind of a pejorative term that, that we've derived to, uh, kind of misrepresent this kind of technology, which is really just plant genetic improvement. Um, like you say, um, we've been improving plants for 10,000 years as a species.

We find the ones that work best and we continue to select those particular lines that have benefits for us. And we've been doing this for a long time. Uh, so everything is different than it was in the wild. If you look at the natural forms, There are nothing like what you see today in the [00:17:00] store. So this GMO thing is just the most recent way that we've been able to modify the way a plant behaves and what plant products are, and it just is a much more precise, this fear that people have about foods being modified.

I think. Um, is it's, it's a big one and it's one of the biggest ones in this country. And so to have a guy like you come on and express why we should be concerned and why we shouldn't be concerned and why, what, what the positive aspects of are, I think, I think it's really, really important man. I think a lot of people need to hear what you have to say and they need to be able to listen to it from an objective standpoint and understand that this is a very complex issue.

It's very complex and it's very important. I appreciate that We didn't have time to talk about it because, and it's something that I, I really encourage people, there's places where you can get great resources. Have you ever thought about doing a podcast? Cause you'd be excellent at it. I would love to do it.

There's some funny, um, Things about that. Um, I can't talk about, do you have an anti podcast clause in your university contract or something? No, I have a [00:18:00] podcast. I do, but I don't do it as me. Oh, you son of a bitch. I do it as, I do it as a character and it's, it's, oh no. Yeah. And how dare you? And it's, you can't talk about it.

No, I can't talk about it. The fuck Did you mention it for then? No. I, they gotta find it. They're gonna find it. I guess the problem is, is that once things from the internet, I know, but, but once the cat's outta the bag, the funny part is cat's outta the bag. Is that, well, that's too bad. The reason I wanted to keep it secret though, and maybe here's my appeal to don't go look for it.

Okay. But it's still secret. What's it about? Science And you're a character on a science podcast. Yeah. Ooh. I'm a moderator. Who they, they're gonna know what that is. Yeah. I guess they'll figure it out. They'll figure it out anyway. But they'll keep it going anyway. I mean, col Yeah. Keep it going. Don't admit to it no matter what.

Yeah. Colbert did it for how many years. Yeah. You know? Exactly. So, uh, and, and it's very much along that line. It's very much along that line. It's, uh, it's, it's, it's a lot of fun talking about stuff. Do you play a dummy or a smart guy? Uh, a dumb smart guy. Oh. So you play a guy who doesn't understand the science and you have to correct people or they have to correct you.

Is that what happened? Uh, something like that. So you play the antagonist. And so they come [00:19:00] along and then they have to u use you as a tool to get to the root of the problem, the ignorance that people have with science, essentially. Yes. And then, then some stuff that's completely off the wall. But it's, it's, it's really fun because it's a great way to get the science out there.

And it allows me to have some fun as a, uh, as a character, as a character that I couldn't have as a, uh, established professor and chairman of a, of a, uh, of a department. Totally understood. Um, yeah, that also, so what you need that also is now linked to a great, uh, song online. What you need is a rapper name.

You know how yams have their own separate name? Yeah. Be Yam and then they have the other thing. You need a rapper name, dude. Yeah, I do have one. I actually, what is it? You're gonna write it down. I'm not gonna say it. I hope he don't. Is it like Kaiser Soze, one of those things? Or Candy Man, it's one, it's one better.

You can even, you can even look it up online here if you want. Okay. But, um, that's it. I can't talk about that. No, don't talk about, okay. I, it just, just, I won't violate your trust. I think it's good because it, the thing is, is that I do want to talk to people who don't agree with, um, Technology. Well, why don't you do this?

Why don't you have a podcast [00:20:00] where people, instead of like you've seen you, I've seen rather you spend so much time typing. I'm sure you can type or you can talk rather quicker than you can type all that shit out. Yeah. So why don't you just take those questions and have people send 'em to you every week?

And if they're not redundant, just that way you can choose, you know, what you've already addressed. Sure. And you could say, Hey, we covered that in podcast. Two or three. You would have a kick ass podcast, man. I, I'd be happy to support it too. Well, why don't we, don't we talk about that? We'll talk about that.

I always wanted It's so easy to do that. Well, the one I wanted to do was the, uh, crop Domestication podcast where I talked about, oh, finally. Someone's doing that. Well, I wanted, no, the one we talk about the, the strawberries and the yams Yeah. And that stuff. I wanted to talk about each one of their stories and how they came to be Fuck yeah.

And interview the experts. And so it's a great idea. And, and so all these things are kicking around. The problem is, is I have three full-time jobs. Whoa. I mean, I'm an administrator, um, for a department of 59 faculty. I'm a, uh, full-time research scientist and I'm a full-time science communicator. And so, um, I literally do work 6:00 AM to midnight.

Seven days a week, two. [00:21:00] And uh, and except for exercise time, you know the stuff I do there I am. Uh, I'm, I'm in this. What are you hiding from? What are you running from running from something? No, I don't know. I, I, I guess it seems like a lot of work. I guess, I guess what I'm running from is, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm running from um, I'm waiting for one of these things to wear out where I can just cut it back to two.

That's an amazing work ethic that you have, and I can understand why you wouldn't have enough time, but if you have enough time to do all these tweets, I'm saying even if you just did a half an hour once a week. Yeah. Yeah. If you just for half an hour once a week, just got a collection of, maybe you can get an intern to collect some of the best questions.

I'm sure somebody would be happy to do that. You press recorder on an iPhone. That's all you need to do. I mean, the, the, the quality of the recording you get from a regular iPhone is pretty much worth it. You could hold it up to your mouth. Yeah. And just go over the piece of, people could hear you turn the paper.

Okay, what do we got here? Okay, this one, this is important and just ramble into the microphone and I'm telling you it would be popular as far with you and you'd be able to quit your other jobs. And that works great. Actually, I have used the iPhone in my character issue, used the iPhone. Oh, you [00:22:00] sound a bitch.

And uh, and I got a nice mixer at home. I pumped, punched it through the mixer. Oh, so you know how to do this stuff? Oh yeah. This is all second nature. Okay. I mean, I used to be in a band, you know. Oh, that's right. I didn even think of that. So this is so, but I imagine there's a couple things I, and I love doing this kind of media stuff.

It would be a really easy thing for me to do. It's just a question of where to wedge it into a full schedule. You really gotta try it. You really, I think you'd be excellent at it. All right. Cause you're really great today. I really, really appreciate talking to you, Kevin Falta. Thank you very much. And please do a goddamn podcast.

Will you, sir? Thank you. Please. People would love it. I think you could help a lot of people by answering a lot of questions like you did today. You were fantastic. I appreciate the hell outta you, man. Thank, thank you very, very much. People, you can follow him on Twitter. It's Kevin Fulta, F O L T A on Twitter.

So at the end of that podcast is where Joe said that I needed to start my own podcast, and that's really where I transitioned into talking biotech. Uh, the funny part is, is that Verne Blaze came to a screeching halt because, uh, Ms. Borrell, um, decided that it was a scandal. And this because of the, [00:23:00] uh, Monsanto dollars to the university.

She said it's a, you know, breach of transparency because it's a pseudonym and a fake voice and a blah, blah, blah. And she really didn't like that. One time on the podcast I interviewed Kevin Volta as Ver Blasek, which I thought was hilarious. I thought I was a good thespian, and I also thought it was pretty clear that it was me.

And so it was kind of the tongue in cheek way of, of really saying, you know, this is who this is. And you could kind of tell, but, um, to those who wanted to find a scandal in, uh, an innocent, uh, adventure into podcasting, it was perfect. And later that October was written up in Buzzfeed as this incredible scandal.

It was her word. Um, that, uh, uh, that Verne Blak was a, a thing, and my university was a little bit upset about that. Um, they thought it was weird. Um, they didn't understand my motivation that I didn't want it to [00:24:00] be me. Um, I needed a pseudonym if I was going to do it, but then realized I could step out as, uh, Kevin Fulta and do it that way, and actually worked out very well.

And that's when talking Biotech was born. My first guest was, Julie k and Julie, j u l l E E reached out to me many years ago telling me about the dangers of GMOs and how it gave her brother brain cancer. And she was a wonderful, wonderful person who sat and listened and talked and asked great questions, and we had so many back and forths and she ended up being a great proponent of technology in the end.

So she's one of those conversions. And I interviewed her first. I interviewed Cy Babe, Yvette Ti Ramon. I interviewed James, uh, who I don't know, remember who else were the early ones. A lot of the really cool technologies, and you can go back and hear 'em all. And that's when talking Biotech was born. So that's the, um, initiation story.

And I [00:25:00] had this idea that I would do a hundred episodes. Uh, the first episode started out as two parts. One where we talked about, uh, biotechnology, the second part in, uh, domestication of plants, which I love domestication stories that became very difficult to do two interviews a week and engineer and produce them, which I do all myself.

And, uh, so I started doing just one story a week after, say, episode 10. I also used to have a lot of guest hosts, and I always thought that was a great part of this, uh, uh, venture and friends from science communication or people I knew from here and there. It, it was a really good thing and I really liked that and I liked that more again in the future.

But around episode, I guess 13, 14, somewhere in there, my university said, you need to stop. And this is because FOIAs were coming fast and furious. We had threats coming to the university. We had, uh, endless calls to the president saying, [00:26:00] fire the guy. We had, um, uh, someone break into my office and spill coffee all over my, uh, assistant's office.

They never go, went to my office, but they broke into my assistance area, spilled coffee all over the desk, all over everywhere, and used some, uh, USB drive to pull information off the computer. And so this was when the university had to, uh, start having police on a regular basis around the university because of threats against me and against my laboratory, I had to pull the name off my laboratory, uh, nameplates.

Um, it was, it was a really bad time and it was all because of really this trumped upcharge of, uh, collusion with a major multinational and being a paid shill for biotechnology. And the university told me to stop. And, uh, I did actually for a while, at the end of November of 2015, and every time I went to speak somewhere, they had someone tell me there and [00:27:00] listened to what I was saying.

And it was really sad because I was speaking with, uh, congressional aids I was speaking with. Um, and this is answering questions, not saying, oh, biotechnology is wonderful. I was speaking at all these events and I had somebody from the university there either recording or paying attention to what I was saying.

It was really, really weird. Um, I wasn't a flame thrower. I've always talked about how we can be better at communicating biology and what biotechnology is and how do we talk about the strengths and limitations and the real risks and benefits of any given technology. And those of you who listened to the podcast on a weekly basis really know that it was really a disappointing time.

And I remember how heartbroken I was, not just because of losing the podcast, but uh, the credibility shot I was taking across the board. And the threats to me and my family and, and, and my home and, and my [00:28:00] lab and all the things that were happening at the time were extremely hard. And if you go back, I think it was episode 13, I really kind of had a rather disgruntled monologue about what was happening and.

It was a very sad time, a very challenging time, and I remember having health implications because of it. I mean, I was missing 4,000 heartbeats a day. Um, all kinds of other stuff that was happening that were really affecting me and affecting my relationships. And it, it was a really, I. Really hard time. I never let it stop my productivity at work.

I still kept in leadership just fine. I was a department chair. I did a great job with my laboratory, but, um, the ride home was, uh, tears and, and misplaced heartbeats. Uh, trying to think of how I was going to deal with the next round of foyer requests, which were coming over and over again. The Food Babe Vni Hurry, uh, was persistent in producing, uh, these [00:29:00] requests.

Um, the, uh, others, others across the board all over the place, over and over and over again, uh, producing these foyer requests, which my university has to respond to, I have to respond to. And it is an extremely stressful and expensive process, uh, for the university. Attorneys have to go through every email, uh, redact all the information.

It's absolutely horrendous, but it's what we must do in the name of transparency. Nonetheless, the university's position is, It looks bad to have somebody, um, under all of this investigation, whether they're guilty or innocent. And two, it's extremely expensive and arduous for the university to have to answer these requests.

And so the, the idea was back down, get, get your head down and, and, and shut up. And at the same time, that's not the way I operate. Um, I run into the burning building. I'm not afraid of this stuff, and so I need to step into it harder. And w [00:30:00] we're telling the truth. We're on the right side of this. So, um, I did, I, I, I kept going back in, I think February or January of 2016, started back up.

And from that point, it's been a, just about every week, ever since until 2019 when my university November, 2019, my university told me, um, no, you cannot do this anymore. Um, you need to shut down your podcast. Uh, 2019, November, 2019. November 14th, 2019 to be exact, I sat across from our dean for research who wagged a finger in my face and said, I'm nothing but trouble.

Um, shut it down and. That was a heartbreak because I, I pounded the table. It's the first time I ever got mad in a meeting with administration and said, this is exactly what triple a s what Nas, what all of our major funding organizations are telling us we need to be doing quality outreach. That's reaching people.

It's not [00:31:00] just outreach where we're putting a message in a bottle and whipping it out into the sea. We're actually doing directed science communication efforts that are making a difference, that have an audience that are getting 20,000, 25,000 downloads, uh, uh, uh, a week. Nonetheless, they said, you must shut it down or, you know, face additional consequences.

And it was made very clear to me that I was going to be either fired or reprimanded or whatever, um, if I didn't stop and I already was taken out of being a department chair at this point. So this is where it all stood in, in 2019. And, and so I, I, I took very seriously the idea of stopping and I, uh, was able to have an excellent guest fill in and it was Modesta Abu and Modesta.

If you don't know Modesta, I met Modesta years ago in, [00:32:00] where did I meet her? In China, I think. And, uh, she's from, uh, Nigeria. She's Nigerian scientist. I saw her again in, um, actually, I don't know where I, I think, anyway, it doesn't matter where I met her. I ended up seeing her again in 2017 in Uganda. And, uh, she was wonderful.

She helped me navigate some of the, uh, tricks of being on the continent there. And, uh, she was absolutely wonderful. And she said she would like to come to the States for. Uh, graduate school and I orchestrated an opportunity for her to come here in conjunction with African studies here at the university where she did a beautiful job for them.

Did a beautiful job for us. Um, and, uh, and, uh, I was able to ask her to host the podcast and she did, and she crushed it. She did a wonderful job, and I'm always grateful for her for that because if you are going to ban me from doing it, um, you can't ban her. [00:33:00] So she took over and probably did five or six weeks of this.

Not long after that, I realized something important. That if my university was going to give me a letter in writing saying, you cannot do this anymore as a university employee, um, also cancel all my talks. I had five or six really big talks on the schedule. They made me cancel. Um, if they're going to say in writing, and I still have that letter right here.

I mean, it's, it's, it's a good one to have. Cause it says, um, it says, uh, you're not allowed to do this, this, this, this, or this. As a university employee, and I started thinking about this, is that it really isn't a breach of academic freedom. As much as a freedom from academia, what it meant is, is that I didn't have to do it.

If they told me I can't do it as a scientist at the university, I'll do it on my own time, on my own dime, on my own [00:34:00] stupid equipment, and I'll find me a sponsor, and that was the plan. I figured I could do this and get paid for what I was doing for free, presumably as an outreach extension event as a university scientist.

So now I'm independent. Now I have a letter in my hand that says, uh, you can't do it as a university person, which now gives me cart blanche to go out and investigate opportunities. And it was about that time that I got a phone call from Clara and those of you listened to the podcast in the last couple years, know that there is sponsorship from, from a company called Col Collabora.

And just a bunch in here with a little brief spot between me and AIE sends you. So Aie, uh, thank you very much for the sponsorship and thank you for joining me today. Absolutely. Long time listener. First time caller. So excited to be here. Well, let's, uh, let's give the listener a little bit of background about the genesis of this relationship.

[00:35:00] So how is it that talking biotech fell on your radar in the first place as a potential? Uh, I was gonna say as a sponsor, but as someone you could sponsor. Yeah, so we were looking at, uh, what was the best way to build a relationship with our users. Um, and so we would talk with our users and ask them, what, uh, podcasts do you listen to?

What newsletters do you read? Um, and one of the podcasts that we would hear regularly was talking biotech. Um, and so, um, uh, we reached out, uh, kind of, uh, on a whim. We weren't sure whether or not you'd be receptive to it. Um, but then, uh, when we started talking, it was very clear that there was, um, an opportunity to work together and, uh, you would be a really great partner to work with.

And, uh, we, we were big fans already, so, um, it kind of all just made sense at that point. Well, I thought it was amazing to get a phone call from somebody saying, Hey, we'd like to work with you because you know, for me, I always looked at this as a message in a bottle. I sit in front of a [00:36:00] microphone and, and who knows where it goes.

And you see the numbers that we reach and you see the number of downloads and you, you get feedback from people. But still, it is just a format that feels very. Um, strange that me and ha me and a guest having a conversation and you don't really understand or I don't understand that there are all these people listening in and it, it always seems like such a strange concept and I hope that never changes because I think that's why it is organic and Sounds good.

And I'm glad you found some value in that. Yeah, no, absolutely. And one of the things that we were very clear with, upfront with you as well as, um, for ourselves as well is we didn't want to mess with the magic, right? Like, it's very difficult to build an audience, particularly with podcasts. And what you've built here is really unique and we didn't want to come in and, um, really, uh, insert any of our own agenda into here.

We just, uh, wanted an opportunity to, uh, get into the ears of your audience, but otherwise, uh, support you in whatever way we can and, uh, let you do, uh, what you [00:37:00] want to do. Yeah, I appreciate that because the minute this turns into an infomercial for companies or something like that, you know, technology is the star of the show.

And so that's why I think it's such a cool, uh, why, why it's had such a staying power as it has. So, uh, tell me a little bit about your company. You know, when, when did this start? And tell me maybe a little bit about the product line that you sell and really where you're going. Yeah, sure. So the company's name is called Collabora.

Uh, we've been around for about two and a half years. Um, and the central insight that led us to build Collabora is that we realized that scientific research today isn't conducted on a single unified platform anymore, but it's usually done on a number of different tools. And this is because scientific research today has become increasingly cross-functional from, uh, wet lab work to analytical work, to computational biology work.

Um, and there's no. Product, no platform. That makes it easy for scientific teams to [00:38:00] pull together all of their different forms of data on different applications and create this integrated single source of truth for your scientific research. So what we built with Collabora is this tool that's able to plug into each of the hardware, software, data, tools that you use in your lab, um, and give the end user a single place where they can do and, uh, analyze all of their data.

Yeah. Very good. So who are your major clients? Is it, uh, small university laboratories or giant corporate laboratories? Yeah, so we have users all around the world today. Um, we have a number of academic users. We're actually free for academia, so if you are a listener and you're looking, uh, to use an electronic lab notebook or a data management tool, um, in academia, feel free to contact us.

And we are free, uh, for academia. Um, but most of the, the users that we target today are larger biopharma companies. Um, so these are the companies that have hundreds of tools across all of their [00:39:00] labs in different locations, um, with tools that don't talk to each other. And, uh, they need, uh, a platform that's able to aggregate, um, everything into a single environment.

So if listeners wanna learn more about Collabora and your products, where would you send them? Cool. Well, you can check out a website collab.ai, so that's, uh, C O L A B R a.ai. Or you can feel free to contact me directly. It's aui@collab.ai. It's a o i at c O L A B R a.ai. Um, and I read all my emails, so, uh, please feel free to contact me.

Well, aie, thank you so much for all of your faith in me and the audience to, uh, really be, reach out and sponsor. I know it's very challenging for small companies everywhere these days to make ends meet and having the, uh, additional burden of having a, a, you know, a sponsoring a podcast. There's gotta be something else that, uh, to think about.

And I really appreciate that you found some value in this and, and [00:40:00] so thank you very much. I really mean that. Absolutely. No, the pleasure has been all, all about us. So that's where we are today. We're now up to episode 400, sponsored by Col Collabora. And, um, I'm getting paid to do the work that I used to do for Gratis, and it's so amazing how many, how many, uh, letters I get a week, how many emails I get a week from companies saying we would love to be highlighted on your podcast.

And I turned down almost all of them because most of them wanted an infomercial for their company. And this audience doesn't need an infomercial. This in this audience craves learning about cool technology, and I tell them, I said, I don't want to hear about how cool your company is or how cool your CEO is.

What I want to hear about is how cool the tech is. And a lot of 'em turn down at that point. A lot of 'em can argue their point and they end up on the podcast. We also tried doing something a little bit experimental [00:41:00] about how businesses adapt to the changing times, and I haven't enjoyed those as much as I've enjoyed other, uh, technology focused podcasts.

So I don't know we're gonna go there much anymore. We may try some interesting things going forward, but some of the things that we've done have been really cool. And one of the best residues of being on a weekly podcast is it's inevitable that some of your guests will be lost. And I look back through the archives and there are three people who I just adore who are no longer with us, and I just wanted to share a little bit of their voice now.

Um, it's sad to do. Um, the first one I'll bring up was a wonderful interview with Dr. Maxine Thompson and Dr. Thompson was episode, I don't remember now, but like 1 0 [00:42:00] 3 or something. You can look it up. Dr. Maxine Thompson was one of the first women's scientists, uh, at Oregon State University, one of the first plant breeds.

Uh, she did this at a time when women were not allowed to be plant breeders. She got into the laboratory as an excellent cytologist who got a faculty position because the PI died and she knew what to do. Uh, she would go to conferences and they would hand her her name tag before she'd ever say who she is.

And she would say, well, how do you know I'm Maxine Thompson? And they would say, well, you're the only woman here. Uh, her story was not just a story of her triumphs and her, uh, outstanding seating of the hazelnut program at Oregon State University. It was a story of women in science. And I, I think it's a great one to listen to.

And here's a little bit with Dr. Thompson here. Well, I couldn't possibly get a job at that time. I had a PhD in genetics and breeding [00:43:00] and, uh, I would apply places. They say, no, we want a man, in fact, right here at Oregon, the reason I got up to Oregon is, uh, because of my knowledge of a chromosome counting my, uh, my predecessor had a grant to study a Pru, the para species.

And he had a big pair of species collection. He wanted the chromosomes counted, which I could do easily. So I came up here for that for one year on his grant money, and then he went on sabbatical leave. And so I got to fill his position cuz I had all the qualifications. So I was there for a year. Then he came back and the next year he dropped dead of a heart attack.

Yeah. And so the head of the department asked if I wanted to come over and, and take his position. That is the only way I was the first woman ever hired. I think I was the second only there was a one other woman in the whole school of agriculture. [00:44:00] And they hired me. Wow. John. I got through the back door.

Well, if, if you don't mind me asking about what year was that? I came here in six, uh, so I came to Corvallis in 65, about 68. I got hired the first time. Wow. That's pretty amazing because I think that we find it, um, not really hard to believe that such things would happen, you know, years ago. Sixties doesn't seem that long ago, and it's sad that it still happens in some places today.

Well, yeah. Well, I, I, when I was working with a parish for that grant on the grant money, uh, the job for, uh, the buried breeding job, Chad's job was open here. They couldn't find anybody. It was a very breathing job. Mm-hmm. U sca. Um, I applied for it and the guy in I interviewed me said, well, you certainly have the qualifications, but we're looking for a man.

And I had all my degrees, were in genetics, [00:45:00] and I had a growing letter of recommendation from my professor, my major professor, but we're looking for a man. The other person I was able to speak to was Dr. Chad Finn. And Chad, I can't even talk about it without getting, um, uh, Uh, choked up here. He was a friend and an outstanding scientist and an outstanding advocate for fruits and vegetables and for students and for our discipline.

And he was maybe in his mid fifties, um, uh, full of life in vitality. He was the guy you looked forward to seeing at every conference. Uh, he had a big voice and bigger hugs, uh, crushing bone, crushing hugs, uh, good guy. And, uh, someone, um, I really will miss. He died in a tragic accident while on a holiday with his family.

And I don't know all the details. What I [00:46:00] do know is just heartbreaking, but the number of people he touched and the amount of impact he has, uh, goes on to this day. And, uh, here's just a few, uh, seconds with Chad. You know, regardless of what your skillset is, Use your skillset. You know, it's like some of us are really deep, thinner thinkers.

I've had grad students who, um, you know, they are just, they are just blown me away with their brilliance. If any of your listeners listen, it met me. I'm not so smart all the time, as my son told me. But I have a ability to work with people. I love spending time outside, year round. I love berries. I love my field work.

I'm looking forward to it right now. And I love working with growers. I love talking to them to hear what their challenges are, to try to figure out how can I fix that problem? And I will tell you, there's nothing cooler than, you know, I'll go driving out in a couple weeks to start looking at fields to see thousands of acres [00:47:00] of a crop that you developed.

You developed that variety, that they're happily growing and making money. And so that's a big thrill in plant breeding is that thrill of discovery. I think, you know, if you're the type person who loves to go clamming, Or mushrooming and love that thrill of discovery. You get some idea of what it's like to find that really cool seedling that you're gonna make a selection in your seedling field.

And so how do you, you know, those kinds of, uh, opportunities are there and it's a matter of taking advantage of them. Yeah. It's kind of interesting that the other big angle is the being comfortable with delayed gratification. Mm-hmm. Because it takes, how many years does it take to release a new Blackberry cult?

Oh, it's short. It's only nine to 15 years. Um, so clock is running and you're, you know, a new plant breed at a university and your product of your hard work and your blood, sweat, and [00:48:00] tears, mostly tears is, uh, 15 years on the horizon. Yeah. But as you know, Kevin, if you, if you're starting a program, that's by all means is a case, but hopefully one of the things.

One of the, the slide I use at the beginning of almost every one of my presentations, and I'll probably butcher it here, but, uh, it's the old, uh, we have warmed ourselves from fires. We did not build, we have drunk from wells, we did not dig. And in plant breeding, that is so true that we count on our predecessors to have done a decent job setting our germplasm up so that we can take advantage of it and not have to wait 15 years.

And likewise, if we're doing a good job as a plant breeder, we're gonna leave our program in good shape for the next person. So that per, you know, U S D A, we don't have tenure, but we have things similar to tenure, but so that somebody can be successful in that kind of timeline. And, uh, that, that, that is a key thing is we're counting on each other as we move forward.

Yeah, exactly. So, uh, [00:49:00] and by all means, I mean, you know, especially students or people interested in the field, Um, I get a little crazy from about the 1st of June till the 1st of August being in the field, which I love. Uh, but you know, we're we, we we're really welcoming of visitors and, you know, whenever I can, if a student's got questions or a colleague, you know, somebody who's interested in the area, has questions, I'm happy to try to answer them.

Very good. And, and I hope people do think about taking you up on your offer of, of visits, you know, in, in the appropriate time of year because stopping in to see you or stopping in over with Kim Hummer shop and, um, just getting to see the germ plasm and see, you know, the, the, all of the strawberries, all the different gooseberries, the things that she has out there, um, are really, this is a, a really is a public gem that we pay for as taxpayers and is something that really is an outstanding resource that everybody should appreciate.

So I'll just throw that out [00:50:00] there too. Yeah, and you know, you know, we got used to being around it all the time, but I still remember the wonder the first time I went to the repositories field planting of blueberries and to see 400, not just different cultivars, but there were also different species in there.

And I just, you know, now I drive by it every day and I take it for granted. And I, you hate it that that happens, but I've driven by it 6,000 times, but. It is amazing to see that field and, um, the resources they have, they're the genetic resources they have there also, you know, you are in a horticultural wonderland in Florida, but, uh, you know, I'll put in a shameless plug for the Pacific Northwest, uh, Willamette Valley and up in the, uh, uh, north of Seattle, some of those areas just having grown up in DC and spent a lot of time in Minnesota, Missouri, which are corn and bean states and cattle and horticulture is, it's not that it's not important, but it's just not the thing that drives the state agriculture out here in Oregon [00:51:00] and Washington.

Oh my goodness. The, and for that matter, California, just horticulture berries and vegetables and seed crops and hazelnuts really drive agriculture. And for horticultural geeks like myself, it's just a joy to drive around and see these things in production. No, you're, you're exactly right. Well, thank you so much for, uh, talking with us today, Chad.

It's really, really good to hear you and, um, you know, you're welcome back anytime. So thank you for joining us. Thanks for doing this, Kevin. It's, it's a joy to to spend time with you and it's also always a joy to, to hear the different stories you, uh, have people tell. So thank you very much. Yeah. Well next time let's do it in the same room.

Same room with a beer. Yeah, you bet. No, that would be great. Chad worked for the U S T A in Corvallis, Oregon, but also had a, a very strong affiliation with Oregon State University and he was a Barry Breeder bred, um, uh, blackberries, strawberries, blueberries, uh, all kinds of good things. But he worked with [00:52:00] Bernadine Strick and Doc Dr.

Bernadine Strick was, uh, an outstanding scientist as well in horticulture at Oregon State University. And she and Chad would work together on validating the trials and on testing different, uh, plants in different environments and how good the berries were, an evaluation of all the products he would produce.

And they were partners in this, in the, in the production of many cultivars and varieties. And we recently lost her here in 2023. So here we had three scientists associated with Oregon State University, who were, um, experts in their field, but sunshine as humans. And, um, I'm very grateful to have recorded them.

Um, in some cases, I don't know that there's another recording of Dr. Maxine Thompson out there. So it shows another reason to continue to produce this podcast. And one of the best things to do is to go back and listen to what was [00:53:00] happening back in 2 20 15. In a discipline like biotechnology, the technology moves so fast that we can see changes over an eight year period, and so you're able to watch the evolution of the Aqua Advantage salmon.

You're able to watch new technologies emerging. With the Covid Pandemic, you're able to see new technologies emerging that integrate some of what was learned about delivery of RNA and lipid nanoparticles, such as what we heard about with Posey Therapeutics or with the efforts to reverse scar tissue in hearts and livers and kidneys.

All of these were podcasts in the last couple years. Uh, we heard about the development of the covid vaccines as well as the impacts of long covid. All of these were covered in the podcast. Some of the extremely exciting opportunities came from new ways of thinking about cancer. Um, that, uh, will we [00:54:00] just live with it and be able to manage it just like we manage any kind of, like, for instance, h I V these days or will there eventually be cures for specific types of cancers.

We heard about sickle cell disease and a very optimistic forward thinking, uh, discussion that sickle cell disease may be a thing of the past and that in the very near future, gene therapy, uh, may be something that can rescue, uh, 95,000 African Americans from a very painful disease that, uh, that could be cured in the next couple years.

There are so many, uh, beautiful, optimistic stories and I think every week almost I end with something like it. Uh, you know, come back and tell us when the big breakthroughs happen because they're happening all the time. And we live at a time when biotechnology is moving faster and more furious than ever before.[00:55:00] 

And so when I sit down sometimes and think it sure would be nice to not have to produce a podcast this week or arrange another interview. I got enough to do. I got a new daughter at home. I got hundreds of animals and orchards of trees and all of my normal research and lab work, ugh, lots going on Farmer's Market every Saturday.

Um, you know, I gotta be there. Not doing a podcast would probably feel pretty good. Um, I even took a hiatus from Science Facts and Fallacies, which I do every Friday. Um, now I've kind of taken a hiatus from that one for a while. But it's the new breakthroughs and the rapidly evolving, uh, developments that I want you to know about every single week.

At the same time, we have to talk about communication strategy and how we share this information with other people, especially when we see how easy it is to malign a good technology. When you look at what happened with the Covid vaccine, when [00:56:00] you look at what's going on with mRNA, vaccines and animals, I mean, these are hot topics that we need to blaze a trail of truth because we know how these things work.

But as we've learned, facts don't matter when you're communicating with the public. It's all about our values and about how what we do doesn't matter, but why we do it does, and this is really where we can talk about that here on talking biotech. And that when we talk about, talk about these topics, we can learn how to be better communicators and better stewards of our science.

And at the end of the day, if our applications are going to serve those they were meant to serve, we all have to be out there speaking about it in social media as well as across the table. Uh, these are great technologies with great potential that may never get to where they're needing to go strictly because nobody talked about why they're important.[00:57:00] 

We're great at innovation. We're not so good at communication, and that's why we have stalled innovation. So at the risk of going too long, I'll conclude here and I'll end episode 400 by saying thank you very much for listening, and I appreciate your loyalty. Continue to send ideas, uh, send, uh, requests. Uh, be a co-host.

You know, you're more than welcome to share a microphone with me here and let's do this together, because this really is a partnership. It's, it's funny because people talk about other leading science podcasts and it's, you know, it's, uh, the BBC and CVS and uh, and all these, you know, uh, scientific American and, and science versus, and all these, and all of those Science Friday.

And when you listen to those at the end, they always say, uh, flora Liman is our producer and so and so's our web manager. And so and so arranges our interviews. And so and so takes care of this. And [00:58:00] they have this team that does all the work. Uh, here it's me. And, and you know, I'd love to get a producer.

I'd love to have somebody else be able to actually put this thing together every week, but it's me and I spend three to four hours between the interview and studying and, uh, and producing. And a website and all that stuff. Um, a week just to produce the podcast. And, and it's a labor of love. I look forward to it every week.

But, um, I hope you listen to that and understand that and get excited about that, that whereas these other podcasts are, um, huge teams and doing beautiful work as huge teams. Um, here it's just little old me. And when I see this thing coming up as number 12 in, uh, iTunes Life Sciences and, um, and I know it's just me doing it, um, I can, uh, say that I, I, I really feel good about that cause it means that we have a quality product that really [00:59:00] people are listening to and, and it means a lot.

So please, if you can write a review on iTunes, share it with some friends, tell other people to tune into this thing and help me keep this enterprise going. This is an enterprise that was banned from the university. They didn't want me to do it. So there's a little bit that feels good about it, really taking off and doing well in spite of the fact that, that a major university wants nothing to do with it.

It, it, it, I always felt they were wrong and every additional download just reminds them how wrong they really are. They actually highlighted a bunch of university podcasts and, um, I submitted mine and they wouldn't even mention it. So, um, It, it's something that really bothers me, but you know what? I'm gonna lean into it.

Let's just keep on rolling and keep on growing, and that means I need your help. So tell, tell a friend, share this everywhere you can on social media. Just even [01:00:00] retweet or share my, uh, Facebook and Twitter postings. Okay? Help me out there. Let's make this even bigger. Going into episode 401, there is some great stuff already been recorded that will be outstanding episodes going forward, and we're only getting better when I compare against what I was doing right after the Joe Rogan podcast.

Um, this is a billion times better and there's a lot of room to grow. So thank you very much for listening. This is The Talking Biotech Podcast, and we'll talk to you again next week.