Duke: All right, Corey, what are we talking about today?
CJ: man, duke.
Today we're gonna talk about hackathons.
Duke: Oh, my favorite
CJ: Yeah, I know, man.
You're only like a what?
20 time champion
Duke: four.
But who's counting?
CJ: Seriously impressive man.
Seriously impressive.
Duke: I mean, I was on the early ones, so the competition, got more
and more and more over the years.
CJ: Nah, don't do that though.
Don't do that.
We're not gonna do the understated our accomplishments thing.
you killed it, man.
You won four.
It's like, Michael Jordan said, ah, I only won like six championships, but
Oh, you're playing in the nineties.
Duke: I didn't fill two hands with rings.
Come on now.
CJ: Seriously, four hackathon championships is a huge accomplishment
and you're probably the best person to have on this podcast,
right, to talk about hackathons.
Right.
This is one of those where we have the guest expert in house.
Duke: I appreciate that, man.
It means extra coming from you.
CJ: Yeah, no doubt.
Duke: yeah, so we're gonna talk about, why you might want to be
on hackathons and, , just some.
rules for Success, rules for Optimal Performance on a Hackathon.
But why don't we start with like a, why would I, right?
Because it's a huge time investment.
The ones at Knowledge were kind of like all nighters, so you're
sacrificing a night of sleep.
why would I want to go through that?
CJ: Yeah, I mean, that's a good question, right?
I, you know, personally, I think like that sacrifice in a whole night of
sleep thing kinda lends a little bit to the intense feeling of it, right?
It's like, oh man, we gonna, yeah, I'll be, Up banging out code all night and
we're gonna deliver something in a day.
Like you feel that sense of accomplishment?
, to me that's what it is.
Yeah.
That's why I would do it, the sense of accomplishment.
But I think there's a lot of other reasons too.
Duke: Oh yeah, man.
Like I, there's no doubt that a large part of my motivations for the ones I
participated in was Fortune and Glory.
Like the first one was such a, a sense of.
I have a perspective on something and I have this idea for an
app that I know would work.
And so in the first hackathon at Knowledge 13, man, we had everybody there.
We had Chris York and Matt Barron and
CJ: Shout out Matt
Duke: yeah, Michael Bar Koyak
jeremy Gartner we had there.
It was just, it was a big, huge team and we were like brainstorming on a call and I
was like, guys, have you ever noticed that when they make decisions on projects, it's
kind of like in a closed door operation, it's like everybody's got these ideas
for projects and nobody really has a say
There's like a bunch of people that go into a boardroom and they come out
and it's like, here's the projects we.
And I'm like, but somehow the organization has all kinds of
resources just hidden around.
And recently come across Kickstarter and I'm like, what if we put Kickstarter
in ServiceNow for project, initiation?
CJ: Oh man, I remember that one.
Duke: So it is like, what if you know, like we should have a mobile app.
For our time entry or whatever.
Cuz our normal time entry sucks and we have to have a time entry field
for our time entry cause it takes so damn long and let's get that done.
And somebody says I have an extra 10,000 in my budget that I'm not
using, I'm gonna dedicate to that.
Or I have a iOS developer that's suboptimally usage for this quarter.
And we can kickstart our projects internally based off of donated
organizational resources.
CJ: Man, that is, that's still a good idea,
Duke: It is, but like I was convinced it was like, I'm convinced this could work.
And I'm maybe like a little bit more sobered on how, corporate
resource management works.
But two releases later, we had ideation.
And so I like to think that I had some part in that, but it's, absolutely
a fortune and glory thing where you could, say like, here's my perspective.
This is what ServiceNow can do, and it's practical.
let's see what can happen.
CJ: Yeah, exactly.
And like you said, two, versions later, you've got ideation, right,
which isn't very dissimilar from the concept that you were describing.
So, fortune and glory and influence,
Duke: Yep.
there's definitely that part too.
Like it feels like sometimes my conversations carry more weight
when, my hackathon wins come up.
I, it frequently comes up on my interviews, like, tell
us about the hackathons.
Right?
Like four of the, I don't wanna be like a big prideful person about
it, but people do ask me about it on interviews and not as a test, but as a
tell us how we can use you kind of way.
CJ: You know, I got a, one of my, , favorite rappers has a line.
He says, I didn't get a thing when I was humble.
So, for me, like boast all you want.
Dan, you, you accomplished this.
You, you did win four hackathons.
Right?
Like, so don't talk about this prideful crap.
We leave that stuff in the
Duke: Well, I, I'm very proud of what I did, and I'm, I got extra
like, warm fuzzies that three outta the four of them were my idea.
But, I also,
CJ: I'm talking about
Duke: what I mean, I, I, it wasn't, it wasn't like it
was me sitting there, right.
It wasn't like it was me, like Joel Olives, James Neal, you know, um, you
CJ: Yeah.
Like all star cast.
Uh,
Duke: all star cast.
Yeah.
Like, so I, I guess that's a point we didn't even put in our notes here, but.
come with rock stars
CJ: Right, work with rock stars.
Uh, but yeah, tying it together.
Fortune, fame, influence are all things that you come out of this with.
And those things follow you throughout your entire career, which is the part
that I think, you know, was the subtext of what you were saying this entire time.
But I think needs to be, called out specifically, especially
for some of our new users, some of our new listeners, right?
Um, some of these hackathons you won, what, 10 years ago
Duke: Yeah.
In 2020, uh, 2013 was my first one.
Mm.
CJ: Yeah.
So, you know, you started winning hackathons 10 years ago, right?
And you're still being asked about them now in 2023.
So, you know, you, you make a name for yourself, right?
Like you win a hackathon.
I mean, maybe you don't even need to win plus some runner up.
It's probably good too, right?
You, you take that with you, your entire ServiceNow career and it
will unlock some doors for you,
Duke: We're always talking about build, build, build for practice.
Right?
CJ: right?
Duke: And you're gonna tell the build stories anyway.
So how much hotter is it gonna be when you say, I built this at a hackathon and I won
CJ: Yeah, right.
Duke: You know, , I think we scheduled this for the end, but I think it comes
up better now, is that it also sharpens your skill and it sharpen in my mind,
it sharpens two skills in particular.
Number one, your technical skills, because it sometimes helps to
just look at things differently.
CJ: agreed.
Duke: you're in a hackathon, you're, you're hacking, So there's
some sense of going offroad and not necessarily obeying the rules.
What can I exploit?
And that just shows you a tool in a different shade, right?
CJ: God.
Duke: in a different color.
You know, it's like, it's not supposed to do this, uh, but it can
CJ: Exactly, exactly Like this module doesn't do this.
Yeah, well it does do the thing we needed to do, so let's just bootstrap it.
Duke: because it's like you're under a severe time constraint.
A severe time constraint.
And so the idea would be like in real life, when we have days to even think
about this, before we put pen to paper, like I might build a proper way to
execute this, but inside it's just, I'm gonna build something that works.
And that is, it builds pathways in your brain about how you wield your tools.
Just, I mean, just, just go on a YouTube and look at like carpentry
hacks, leather working hacks.
I'm big on leather working, so I'm just like always
watching leather working hacks.
It is just like all these dudes have these weird, like nobody else has
considered them, but they work better
CJ: right.
Duke: so definitely, definitely sharpens some technical edges.
CJ: Yeah, I mean you, so it's about career growth, right?
Um, you know, and I touched on this a little bit too, but It gives you that
ability to step outside your comfort zone and step outside your skillset,
comfort zone especially, right?
Like you might go into there and we already got three rockstar developers and
maybe developing as your is your jam, but we don't necessarily need that person.
What we need is somebody to be the pitch guy or what we need is somebody right
to help build that PowerPoint, right?
Or you know what I mean?
Or
Duke: No, I totally, let me tell you how much I know what you mean.
Cuz that was me.
the, like everybody sleeps on the pitch person.
Like literally for, most of the hackathons I was on, from a technical
perspective, I was extra hands.
James Neal.
Be like, I'm trying to build an integration into this exterior system.
We were trying to do a, a social media app one year, and James is like,
I'm building a Twitter integration.
Like what I need is something else.
And so I would build the tiny stuff that was easy, right?
So I would build all the easy stuff.
while, while I thought on the, pitch.
One other hackathon, I did with, Travis Tolson and Nathan Berth.
We didn't win this one, but it was like they literally did all the build.
And all I did was just refine and refine the pitch for like the whole hackathon.
And so if you don't think, if you're not technical enough, but you got
good talk, it's, you're still critical to the team because the pitch is
often what convinces people to.
CJ: and I wanna say two things to that, right?
Like one thing is, You weren't always the pitch guy, internally, right?
Like as a, you know, your skillset, you weren't always the guy who was comfortable
getting up and speaking in front of, tens or hundreds of people, right?
Duke: absolutely not.
You're you're absolutely right.
11 was my first knowledge, and I was like, oh, someday I hope,
I hope I can be strong enough, convincing enough, confident enough
to like host a session at Knowledge.
CJ: Right.
Duke: like, knowledge 12, I did a very small one.
And then knowledge 13, I did a, a big one.
A huge one.
It was standing room only.
was just like scared outta my wits.
CJ: Yeah, I was at that one.
Duke: uh, . But then At Knowledge 13, we did the hackathon and man,
one of my friends at ServiceNow, we were like at that knowledge, the
hackathon contestants were pitching in the general kind of symposium area.
Era.
So people would come by and like, listen to your pitch and then you'd
text in your vote or whatever.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Anyways, It was one guy on my team and me doing
pitches to, people at knowledge.
And then one of my friends from ServiceNow walks up to me and says,
uh, Frank Sluman is gonna be here in two minutes, and what am I gonna do?
So I pitched
CJ: it.
This is the big time,
Duke: Yeah.
And I'm.
Frank Sluman is there.
He is kind of like he's sort of interested, right?
And he's standing side onto me and he's leaning in with his ear and I
said, Frank, do you know what's And he like, he was standing still, but
you could tell he was standing stiller.
I'm like, I think it's bullshit that at your organization there's probably
like hundreds of projects that are worth doing that aren't getting
off the table because there isn't a proper ideation engine where you are.
And he just, side onto me and he just turns straight onto me, crosses his
arms, now I got your full attention.
Now I see And so yeah, I, pitched to Frank Sluman.
It was awesome.
gave my hand a really big.
walking away and I'm like, Hey Frank.
And he turns around and I like tell him the number he's supposed to dial , like
dial that number But then after that, that was the emergence of the Duke.
I think the Duke came immediately after that.
And I'm like, it's okay.
I can like pitch to Frank's Lutman on two minutes notice.
That's fine.
I'll be f Everything's fine.
I'll be fine.
CJ: Skill growth in the moment, right, in the moment.
that's just an amazing story.
I if you ever thought like, I can't do this, like that story right
there, should, just convince anyone that you should at least try it.
Duke: I was so lucky though, right?
Cause I didn't, I didn't have a choice.
Right.
If I had time to decide, I might have said, I'm not ready.
CJ: that's what hackathons do.
They take away your
Duke: no, you're ready.
No, you're doing it
CJ: they put you in this, tiny compressed window of time.
Right.
And add in all of this pressure.
And then they create diamonds, you know?
And so yeah, don't be intimidated
Duke: Yeah.
Well, okay.
That just takes us right into the, uh, into the strategies.
CJ: right?
Yeah,
Duke: tell us more about, don't be intimidated.
CJ: the second Part of that I think also, um, works really well here is that you
came away from that experience with having learned more tech stuff, more developer
stuff from the rockstar developers that you had on your team, just by osmosis.
Right?
Just by being around, hearing them talk.
Type in the code.
There were no kind of, oh, we are stuck.
Kind of conversations.
How do we do this?
Offering input, input, going through that process, right?
Like again, don't be intimidated there either to, even though like
development or rockstar development might not be your jam, don't be
intimidated to offer up something, right?
Because.
Duke: it's, it's so true.
At the time, I did my first hackathon.
We joke all the time, like, I'm not a, real developer, right?
CJ: You say that all the time, but I mean 10 years later,
Duke: if it's true, if it's true now, it was 10 times as true 10 years ago.
And you know, I, I would develop simple stuff.
And so I wasn't a rockstar coder for the hackathon, but I went in any way.
Why?
Because I had an idea.
I couldn't get outta my head.
Why?
Because I knew I could deliver the pitch really.
And other people knew that about me too.
So no matter what your skill level is, I don't want to hear, I don't
wanna hear nothing about, oh, I'm not really a good developer.
Like, who cares?
There's other people who are, you know, maybe not even as good as you
and they're like neck deep in it.
It doesn't matter.
Don't be intimidated, everybody can contribute to the team and, and like
I said, even if you're just extra hands, it's still absolutely necess.
CJ: Yeah, and you never know what talent you might have hidden that
you unlock just by necessity.
Duke: that just by necessity, you're absolutely right.
CJ: Yeah.
that touches on our next one, right?
Which is like, it takes all types, we need developers as a, on a hackathon.
We also need pitch folks, right?
We also need somebody making that deck, right?
We also need somebody, you know, coming up with the idea.
, right.
We need, we need someone who can do the testing, right.
You know, someone who has that different viewpoint of what's going on and
can catch, like, usability issues.
We need all types of skill sets when you're talking about a hackathon,
Duke: You can't sleep on the idea that somebody has to have the master vision.
If everybody thinks they have the vision, they're gonna develop,
thinking they're in the same.
Direction, but then they're gonna have the f to mix together
a whole hodgepodge at the end.
there's one, hackathon we went to, where we had this idea, and at the very early
keynote, they had one of their high production videos about what people are
doing with ServiceNow and god damn it, the very first one, was our hackathon idea
and we're like, shoot, we can't do that.
So
CJ: Oh man, that's gotta suck.
Duke: yeah, so I was friends with one of the social media people
at ServiceNow and she was like, well, I'll tell you an app I'd.
And so we decided to do this app that would help her,
but she wasn't on the team.
And so we don't really know, you know what I mean?
Like when you're in the weeds, it's like, how should it work again?
So we're like constantly texting her and she was basically like our secret
team member, but only because she had the idea of how the app would work,
CJ: Right.
Duke: And in other, like in other hackathons, I was that person I was.
if I'm only just there to answer questions to the devil, like exactly
how is this supposed to work again?
Like somebody's gotta be that central locus of what this thing is going to be.
CJ: Yeah, like, I mean, when you think about Google, right?
Like somebody had to have the idea just.
Text box, Like that's the vision.
No extra.
No, just a text box with a button.
That's all we're doing.
But what about no you can't under underestimate those things.
You can't undervalue them, it takes all types.
I mean, we, we often think about, the code, like
especially in technology, right?
Like we often put a whole lot of value on the coder types
and as well, we should, right?
It is a definite, it is a skill that not everyone has, but there are other
skills that not everyone has too, There are so many folks who, would
not be comfortable doing the pitch.
Duke: I hear you.
CJ: and you know, and would not, and could not come up with the idea.
Right.
So let's just just understand that, that whole diversity of skill type
thing is a necessity for successful
Duke: Yeah.
, the team has to be diverse, skilled.
Absolutely.
Um, okay.
So if you are that person, if you've got a, an idea in your head and you've
got network of developers you can cue on, then the next tip is start early.
Oh my God.
Start early.
CJ: Like now
Duke: Yeah, like every team that I've seen WIN has had plans
for it like a while in advance.
And I'm not saying they built it already.
Some teams have, I find that's kind of cheap, but have at
least had the idea really early
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: so that they get there and the teams ready.
You at least have a clear vision of the app and then you just start working.
Maybe you've talked about components you're gonna use,
but that is, a life save.
CJ: Absolutely.
I, I totally agree with you, right?
you want to go into it with like, at least some kind of
idea of what you're going to do.
That doesn't mean you, you have to, but I think if you want to
have the most chance of success,
Duke: and literally like, please don't be cheap.
Like there's one team one year where they.
They did it in c m s and it was hardcore graphic designs and stuff.
They clearly had all these assets built before they came to the session.
And it was just like, that's so cheap.
Like they had hours and hours and hours of advanced work before anybody else,
don't be that, don't be that team.
Like
CJ: Yeah, exactly.
Like everyone should keep to the spirit of the hackathon.
Right?
I think it's fine to have a, you have your team picked out.
I think it's fine to, you know, toss around some ideas on like what you're
gonna build, But you shouldn't come with pre-built assets, you know, in my opinion.
Like, I don't know what's allowed at the rule level, but for me it
feels like you said, feels cheap.
Duke: totally cheap.
CJ: the, the next one, right, and I think this is, the actual
spirit of a hackathon, right?
It just has to work.
You know, it doesn't have to be amazing.
It doesn't have to be great.
You just gotta get through the happy path, man.
Duke: Yep.
It just has to work.
So mentioned it before, like off-roading, ignoring the rules a bit oh, you shouldn't
put glide records in client scripts.
Okay?
Like , try and stop me.
Uh, if, if, uh, putting a glide record into a client script shaves
an hour off your time, you'd do it
CJ: Absolutely.
Duke: and nobody during the demo is detecting.
potential, performance concerns.
Who cares?
this is, duct tape, thumb tack, paper mache,
CJ: Right, right.
Duke: really, really, really highly polished paint.
this is what we're talking about.
CJ: And you know what, what I'll say here to you is like, to translate this,
um, back to, um, to corporate world too, I think sometimes it just has to work,
works really well in your day job, and maybe it doesn't end up and it probably
shouldn't end up in, in production, But sometimes you got that stakeholder who
doesn't see the vision a mockup, right?
That just works to show the value of what you're proposing that you do.
Hot hackathon style.
It's probably super valuable to convey, the vision of something that you're
pitching, So that's another skill.
Like to tie this back to one of the earlier, part of the conversation, right?
That's another skill that you end up building here by going through a, um, a
hackathon, that ability to build something on a spot, make it work, and then use
that to convince others that it's a good.
Duke: it's a model and it's just doing it the proper way takes more effort, right?
Like we see this day to day too.
And I think the hackathon makes you appreciate it more.
It's like, I can do it.
A way I know that works or I can do it the proper, methodical way,
but the proper, methodical way is always the most time consuming
CJ: Absolut.
Duke: and the hackathon is not the place to understand about time consuming.
So it can also show you pitfalls where you're not thinking deep
enough in your real world life.
CJ: absolutely love it
Duke: But I, I feel like sometimes if you feel like, oh, there's a 50
50 chance that this thing just poops.
, like while we're demonstrating it.
, you're, you're probably in the right spot.
CJ: It means you were just ambitious enough.
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
CJ: Yeah.
I mean, so that's a good point to touch on too, if what you built, if you don't feel
like there's a chance of it failing, you probably weren't ambitious enough with it.
Duke: Yeah.
I'm trying to think of a specific example where, where that happened.
Where're just like, oh, this.
We didn't quite finish this, so don't demo that part,
CJ: Right.
Duke: but that actually bleeds into another, point is that I think
you're gonna have more ideas, a lot more ideas going in about how
this works than you will execute on
CJ: Okay.
Duke: our ideation portal, , we had like a seven person team, so it was nothing
for us to like dedicate this labor.
But , I would say half the labor we dedicated didn't even make the demo cuz
we had stuff like social amplification.
So it was like you have five projects and there was a social feed and
people could like or comment and then the likings would rank the
projects on the ideation portal.
the only thing we really had time to pitch anyway was this idea that you
could pick a project and you could dedicate resources, or you could
dedicate, money or you could dedicate.
, those are the three things we could demo, but we had like social ranking
and we had, reward systems so that you could promise something back to the
people who are dedicating stuff to you, and it's just like, man, we didn't even
have time to pitch that you know, And so you have to be able to recognize
and commit to slaying the features.
That you fell in love with because it's gonna get to a point you, you
will not be able to pitch this.
You won't have the time.
and the earlier you can do that, the better because it allows you to focus
, what development effort that you have.
CJ: Yeah, focus, right?
Like it's that whole lean startup pitch, right?
Where you want to find product market fit as quickly as possible, right?
And you want to do that , with the least amount of, , labor
expenditure possible too, right?
So like, I want to get this in front of the people who are gonna make
the decision as quickly as possible.
A framework having been built as quickly as possible too.
and that goes to, like you said, slaying those features that you might love,
but ultimately are superfluous to the message that you're trying to present.
Duke: That's, it's absolutely right and it's gonna happen.
I promise you.
I promise you it's gonna.
CJ: But those are what V two and V3 and V4 are for.
and, and, and to me, there's no, rule that the hackathon has to
stop at the end of the competition.
I mean, a lot of these internal hackathons that happen in companies,
and I don't know if they still do, I know there was a movement a while
ago where a lot of companies were doing like internal hackathons.
I don't know how prevalent it still is, but, the whole impetus behind the
movement, was to get these ideas out there and get some of these things built,
Duke: Yeah, get a model.
CJ: yeah, get a model, right, and then transition it to the next stage and see
whether or not, it can be something.
Duke: I'll tell you a story about the pick features wisely.
one of the hackathons I won, we called it Apocalypse Now, and it was a
disaster response workflow initiator.
CJ: Okay.
Duke: So basically like you had all these disaster response plans in
knowledge articles, and the knowledge articles would have basically templated
tasks Say it was like a building fire.
Like do a headcount, make sure everybody gets their payroll up to that date.
make sure we get our backups restored to a, backup site or whatever.
All the, all the stuff and A location manager could subscribe
to each of the event types, I want this fire plan cuz we're in a high
rise, or, I want this earthquake plan because we live in California
CJ: Right
Duke: And then we thought, Hey, you know what would be cool is
if we just do an integration with the US Geological Service.
CJ: Yeah.
No, I mean, why not
Duke: Yeah, why not?
And so we did it and then it was, one of those government, they were
having a, a stalemate over the budget.
And so basically, U S G S took that service offline that night.
CJ: Oh no.
Oh, no.
Duke: But it was kind of a cheat code for the pitch because I was like, and we
had this prep to show you, but the feed.
CJ: Yeah.
No.
Right, because then like boom, we had a disaster recovery service pitch
for you, but then a disaster happened
Duke: that's right.
We wanted to show live.
We wanted to like just tune down the dial, like let us know
if anything like 3.2 happens.
Right.
And so basically, that happens every five minutes in California.
So we just wait and then we get an alert and it would
launch out the earthquake plan.
But, what we should have done was just cut that out.
Like it took us so long to integrate it and it was just like we, I still
hadn't had hit my stride yet on like why we were winning hackathons,
but we should have just cut that out and just went with what we had.
Cause we couldn't demonstrate it and we won.
CJ: Yeah, exactly.
And, and you could have always like had , a fixed script that you ran that simulated
Duke: Yes, exactly, exactly it going, because that goes back to the past point.
It just has to work.
Like, let's make believe that the G US Geo Geological service
send us this message, boo.
run the background script,
CJ: right.
Duke: everybody's like, the other thing too is like
everybody wants this to be cool.
Everybody wants us to be cool
CJ: It's the point, right?
Duke: you just have some script saying, well, this is the event of them calling
us, or some other system talking to us, they're gonna imagine it happening in real
life, they'll fill in the blanks for you.
CJ: Absolutely.
That's the value of the pitch.
That's the value of all of that shell work too.
Sometimes.
That's not always just the development, right?
Because they, if they wanna believe, right?
Like.
Duke: they wanna believe they do.
Yep.
Everybody's jazzed about it.
It's like a big thing.
CJ: it's like at the circus, right?
Like you've got, the ringmaster comes out and they're doing whatever
little thing that they're doing, and sometimes it's slight of hand,
but you wanna believe, right?
Because you're there to be entertained.
And so you, so it works.
Duke: That's right.
CJ: So last point, duke, I'll, I'll intro this one and I'll let
you roll with it because I I think you've got a lot to say on it.
but, come with rock stars and, you know, when, when you think
about, you know, hackathon and, and if you're really trying to win.
showing up with folks that you trust, that you know their skillset, that you know how
they work, that you already have a rapport with, and you know, are good at the thing.
That's things that they do and the responsibilities that they'll have,
I feel like can't be understated.
Duke: That's it in a nutshell, really like, , we say it takes
all types and it does, but one of those types is rockstar devs.
because if you want to hack a component,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Like in my leather working videos, , there's this dude who takes
alls , you know, the screwdrivers, but comes down to one single point and for
something in leather working, he bends 'em, he bends 'em at like 45 degree
angles so he can better hold down the leather when he is like applying glue.
CJ: Oh,
Duke: you would, so, But you need somebody who knows how that stuff works.
To be able to say, well, if we just bend this tool at a 45 degree angle,
we can get another, another effect out of it that we weren't previously.
And I think rookies have a harder, cha harder, time of doing
that then say a pro developer.
So the pro developers are necessary.
So if you're trying to assemble a hackathon team, make sure it's composed
of somebody who's got hard dev chop.
Maybe somebody who's got hard portal chops because visuals count and somebody who
can pitch and somebody who has the locus of control for what the app is, right?
Who's going to be the mind that decides how the app works?
You have those four pieces.
You're well on your way.
They don't have to be four separate people.
Like one person can occupy multiple of those, but those are
the four components you need.
But actually, I think, go ahead to Corey.
CJ: no, I, so I was gonna say, do we still need a rockstar D now with low code
and the no code, tos and service tool?
Um, tools and service now,
Duke: I mean, maybe not necessarily.
I just haven't seen a hackathon done where there wasn't like
some significant feature ad.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: And so I would, I would have one just in case, because I think
most ideas involve something that doesn't quite exist, platform wise.
CJ: none that I'm thinking about this.
I would love to see a side by side, like a category for best
low-code, no-code app entry.
Because I think that that is a, I hate to say up and coming, right?
Cuz it's been up and coming for so long.
But, I would like to see the innovation that comes out of someone who's trying
to build something that's really freaking cool but limited to the scope of.
No, this can't be pro style development, but I still wanna win this thing, So now
it's a, it's a lot more about process.
It's a lot more about message.
It's a lot more about pitch.
It's a lot more about the idea, all that creativity gets funneled maybe
a little bit in different areas, and maybe something a little bit
more innovative comes out of it too.
Duke: Yeah, I mean, I'd be down to see that.
CJ: think that will, be interesting to see how, uh, how future, hackathons
shape out because I think, you know, the last time we did a hackathon, um,
in the ServiceNow space, those local no-code tools weren't really available.
or at least not as polished as they are now, right.
With a ees and things like that.
Duke: Well, we'll see if, we'll see what they say, man.
Let's, let's hope they have a hackathon this year and maybe
we can talk them into it.
CJ: shit, that'd be awesome.
Duke: All right.
There was, there was one I did want to cover that
CJ: Yeah, let's do it.
Duke: how do you put yourself in a position to have a great
idea to do a hackathon with?
And I like, I just have this mindset of learn to love the, the
smell of garbage, The smell of bs.
Like just learn to love it because in those work dynamics or processes that
you just can't, that make great hackathon entries because it's stuff like if
it cures something that itches us, if it cures something that we hate, then
people are really gonna resonate with it.
The secret for my pitches is I could always start it with, Hey, you
know what's You know what I mean?
And, and you, they would get halfway through the pitch and you
could see them nodding like, yeah, that that is Like, I hate that.
I hate that.
And then you, then you're hitting them with the, oh, but we can fix it.
And all it takes is da, da, da with service.
CJ: I mean, that's,
Duke: It's like a two stage, right?
Like you could go with the whole like this is amazing route, but
if you hit them with the, this is bullshit, and now this is amazing.
It's a winning combo.
So you have to just scan through your life and just take an inventory of
all the things that just like take an inventory of all those things and see
what you can do about solving them at a.
CJ: I think that's amazing.
Yeah.
And l listen folks lessons from a master hackathon, winner here, you
know, and a master hackathon pitch guy.
, you can't make this stuff up , right?
Like, I mean, it works because it resonates with all of us, right?
Like we have all thought.
This thing is at some point in our lives about something.
And I know we've all thought about it, about work as well, even when
you have the ability to change it, you still think before you change it.
This is some
Duke: It's the whole, like we did a whole episode on it, right?
It's like the whole reason Service now exists,
CJ: Yes.
To take the bullshit outta work, man, they, that would be so great
if they could use that as a slogan.
It would, it wouldn't work.
You know, because obviously you, you know, they're way too big and corporate
to be able to say, take the outta work.
But, I think that might be my new informal, uh, way that I
explain to people what I do.
I take the bullshit outta work
Duke: That's a, that's a, that's as good as any of 'em, man.
That's profound.
CJ: Credit to you, duke.
Duke: All right.
I think that's all we have time for today.
Folks are at like, what, 45 minutes of recording?
No, 38 minutes, but definitely at time.
CJ: no doubt.
This was a good one.
yeah, talk to you guys later.
Duke: See you later.
Bye-bye.
78 episodes in and we still don't have a good outro.