WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:12.608 --> 00:00:15.848 Mike Caldwell: Hello, and welcome to the Transformative Principal Podcast. 00:00:15.848 --> 00:00:22.088 This is Mike Caldwell, today's host, substituting for the legendary Jethro Jones. 00:00:22.538 --> 00:00:25.208 Today's guest is Marie Borolo. 00:00:25.838 --> 00:00:27.578 Marie, welcome to the show. 00:00:28.988 --> 00:00:29.588 Maria Bordeleau: Thank you. 00:00:30.713 --> 00:00:38.753 Mike Caldwell: Happy, happy to have you on, on here as one of our first podcast or, or first podcast that I'm hosting in, in Jethro's absence. 00:00:38.753 --> 00:00:41.573 And so I'm excited to, to have a conversation with you today. 00:00:42.053 --> 00:00:46.553 Marie and I have just recently got to know each other over the last few months. 00:00:46.553 --> 00:00:50.088 She's a new mentor on Link Leaders and has. 00:00:50.398 --> 00:00:57.568 A wealth of, of experience and background, similar to me in Catholic education, but also in in public education as well. 00:00:57.568 --> 00:01:04.528 So let her share a little bit of her background and then we'll dive into questions and we're see where this conversation goes. 00:01:04.528 --> 00:01:09.058 So Marie, again, happy to have you as one of my first guests here. 00:01:09.058 --> 00:01:15.598 So why don't you start with a little bit of your background and, and then maybe what leads you led you to starting? 00:01:15.808 --> 00:01:17.488 Is it called in the arena? 00:01:17.943 --> 00:01:19.803 Consultancy or something to that effect. 00:01:19.808 --> 00:01:20.118 Is that 00:01:20.358 --> 00:01:20.398 Maria Bordeleau: accurate? 00:01:20.618 --> 00:01:21.363 It is, it is. 00:01:21.363 --> 00:01:21.693 Yeah. 00:01:21.693 --> 00:01:23.553 Well, first of all, thank you, Mike for having me. 00:01:23.553 --> 00:01:27.153 I'm, I'm absolutely thrilled to be here today and to have this conversation with you. 00:01:27.183 --> 00:01:32.133 I think leadership, as we're talking about transformative leadership, it life is kind of like life. 00:01:32.133 --> 00:01:43.263 It can lead to a lot of, it's to twist and turns and led me to some twists and turns where I needed to step away from the daily leadership of the school for, to support my, to take care of my family in a different way. 00:01:43.593 --> 00:01:46.893 And in doing that though, I started to really think about. 00:01:47.058 --> 00:01:52.638 Um, engaging with a, a dream I've had for a long time, which is to, to finish a book. 00:01:52.638 --> 00:01:56.478 I've started that was an offshoot of my dissertation at Creighton University. 00:01:56.868 --> 00:02:03.168 And then also while, um, my school leadership journey has been in Catholic education. 00:02:03.738 --> 00:02:08.778 Um, I've also been in public school education as well at different moments in my career. 00:02:09.138 --> 00:02:13.788 And I think a lot of what my experience has been in both spaces is that there is. 00:02:14.918 --> 00:02:23.378 For, for educators and, um, educational leaders specifically to really get support in a very different way. 00:02:23.378 --> 00:02:38.453 I think that there's a lot of opportunities around, um, instructional leadership and strategic planning, but there's not a lot about the caring, the burden of the daily, the daily grind of school leadership, which is, is something that unless you are. 00:02:39.803 --> 00:02:50.123 Are doing it, it's, it's hard to appreciate what that, that, that the weight that you carry every day and the skill sets you need to bring to, to the class, the school every day from. 00:02:51.098 --> 00:03:00.578 Instructional leader to, um, CFO, to chief psychologist, to um, you know, everything under the sun. 00:03:00.638 --> 00:03:04.418 Um, hr, our expert expertise and, and the like. 00:03:04.418 --> 00:03:13.628 And so I think that's where my goal in, in working with, um, school leaders and in the arena is to really provide that, um. 00:03:13.873 --> 00:03:17.473 That helping hand to really manage those burdens. 00:03:17.503 --> 00:03:32.053 Um, I'm working on publishing a book next month that I'm absolutely thrilled about, um, called The Dust and the Glory because as school leaders we end up kind of in marred in the dust of, of the work, but there's also such glory in what we do every day. 00:03:32.053 --> 00:03:34.393 When you have those, those sparkling moments and. 00:03:34.978 --> 00:03:41.038 I think about, it's all inspired by, um, Theodore Roosevelt's in the arena, quotation around. 00:03:41.038 --> 00:03:52.738 It's, it's really those that are in there fighting every day and, and working with the people that are in those arenas every day, and not necessarily the critics that are outside the arena that we really need to, to be there for. 00:03:52.738 --> 00:03:59.518 And that's what, um, I'm hoping to do through my coaching, the book I'm writing and, and other things that I'm doing and, and moments like this. 00:03:59.548 --> 00:04:01.678 So I really appreciate you asking me to be here. 00:04:01.678 --> 00:04:02.458 I'm absolutely thrilled. 00:04:03.503 --> 00:04:03.923 So thank you. 00:04:03.923 --> 00:04:03.983 Yeah, 00:04:03.983 --> 00:04:04.433 Mike Caldwell: absolutely. 00:04:04.703 --> 00:04:05.243 Absolutely. 00:04:05.243 --> 00:04:20.903 I think in timely, you know, a recent conversation I was having with a school leader, um, just recently on Friday in a mentorship call, um, she was really struggling with obviously the pressure that you have as a school leader and, um. 00:04:22.193 --> 00:04:34.913 And, and also the criticism that, that she was trying to navigate, both from some of her, one of her staff members and also, um, from, you know, from a set of parents from a recent issue. 00:04:34.913 --> 00:04:37.193 And, and as we were talking. 00:04:37.243 --> 00:04:43.063 You know, I was looking over her shoulder, um, and I said, turn around and read that poster. 00:04:43.123 --> 00:04:52.363 And the poster was in the arena, the, the Theater Roosevelt quote, which I think every school leader should have on their wall as a reminder and a daily, daily read. 00:04:52.363 --> 00:04:59.923 Like this is, it's so true as, as a school leader that, um, it's you that are, that's. 00:05:00.053 --> 00:05:03.893 In the arena doing, you know, the hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. 00:05:03.953 --> 00:05:13.763 And I, I oftentimes read that and, you know, or read that as a school leader, as a reminder, like that criticism I'm getting are those people mm-hmm. 00:05:14.003 --> 00:05:15.833 That are in the grandstands watching. 00:05:15.863 --> 00:05:17.453 They don't understand. 00:05:17.668 --> 00:05:21.598 All that it takes to be here in the daily battle. 00:05:21.688 --> 00:05:26.308 And so you have to kind of take some of that criticism from with a, with a grain of salt. 00:05:26.308 --> 00:05:31.618 So I love the title of your, of your, um, of your, uh, consultancy in the arena. 00:05:31.618 --> 00:05:35.998 I think it's, um, very applicable to the, to the work of, of the school leader. 00:05:36.658 --> 00:05:37.498 Let's talk about your book. 00:05:37.498 --> 00:05:42.118 Tell me a little bit more about like, so you've been in the process of writing that. 00:05:42.118 --> 00:05:42.808 Where is it? 00:05:42.808 --> 00:05:44.068 And, and Yeah. 00:05:44.068 --> 00:05:46.178 What, when you're, when are you releasing it? 00:05:47.063 --> 00:05:47.573 Maria Bordeleau: Yeah. 00:05:47.633 --> 00:05:48.443 Um, thank you. 00:05:48.443 --> 00:06:00.353 So, um, the process, so I've been writing it for a couple years and then, um, I had time, um, this fall and so I just sat down and, and did the work to finish it. 00:06:00.353 --> 00:06:12.503 'cause I had, I had a lot to say, um, because the school leadership is hard and, um, it is ex I'm gonna do, I don't mean to, I think it was, I don't, I got so many times that people would say. 00:06:12.998 --> 00:06:14.138 How do you do this job? 00:06:14.138 --> 00:06:15.248 It's, it's terrible. 00:06:15.488 --> 00:06:16.388 Why would you wanna do it? 00:06:16.388 --> 00:06:17.588 And I, I loved it. 00:06:17.588 --> 00:06:19.358 I did love the work, but it was hard work. 00:06:19.358 --> 00:06:23.018 And that's part of the reason I liked it though, was the challenge that it presented every day. 00:06:23.078 --> 00:06:37.778 Um, but I do think as you're talking about that, those, when you have the teacher that's upset with you because of something that, and then the parent that was criticizing you because of a discipline issue and everything else, it gets to be a lot to carry. 00:06:37.778 --> 00:06:38.228 And then. 00:06:38.573 --> 00:06:42.113 When you're just trying to, and I think people often forget that we're human. 00:06:42.293 --> 00:06:48.383 The school leaders are human beings that have a lot to carry and the job is incredibly complicated. 00:06:48.443 --> 00:06:48.593 Um. 00:06:49.898 --> 00:07:03.038 And I think that's where my book is about how to manage that and really come out the other side and, and, and, um, and really lean into mentorship and accompaniment, um, with others because I think that's the only way you can do it. 00:07:03.068 --> 00:07:11.228 It's, it's so easy to sit in your office or walking the hallways of your school and feel even with all that around in you. 00:07:11.258 --> 00:07:14.193 It's, it can feel very isolating because everybody has an opinion. 00:07:15.138 --> 00:07:20.868 Everybody thinks they understand your job and that they can, and they can somehow do it better. 00:07:20.868 --> 00:07:24.858 If they were principal, this is what I would do if I was, you know, and you're like, okay, sure. 00:07:24.948 --> 00:07:28.428 And they have zero idea that you have government mandates. 00:07:28.488 --> 00:07:32.328 Um, the bosses from above, the parents, the teachers. 00:07:32.833 --> 00:07:33.643 You know, all of it. 00:07:33.643 --> 00:07:36.613 And you have to somehow navigate all of those different shareholders. 00:07:36.613 --> 00:07:41.803 The board, let's not forget the, the lovely board, you know, they're all very important, but it's complicated. 00:07:41.803 --> 00:07:48.943 And so that's what I was trying to do is really, um, talk about that and look at that and how to maybe. 00:07:49.923 --> 00:08:00.633 Speak to the reality of the job, because when I was, um, at my last school site, there were so many times I'd be looking for a book and none of them were really speaking to me. 00:08:00.993 --> 00:08:03.693 Um, and I'll speak just specifically as a Catholic school leader too. 00:08:03.693 --> 00:08:09.453 So many of the books were, were, um, really about being a, a spiritual leader or. 00:08:09.813 --> 00:08:17.193 Academic instructional leader, or there was, they're very specific and I was just looking for something to say, talk to me about what my re, my daily reality is. 00:08:17.613 --> 00:08:23.523 Let me, and I just couldn't find it and so I decided to write it, um, because I'm just that crazy. 00:08:23.553 --> 00:08:25.563 Um, and really wanting to have. 00:08:27.158 --> 00:08:29.558 The voice of the principal will say, I, I feel heard. 00:08:29.558 --> 00:08:30.248 I feel seen. 00:08:30.248 --> 00:08:36.488 Because I think it gets really hard from, um, all of the different shareholders. 00:08:36.488 --> 00:08:37.658 You have to manage it. 00:08:37.748 --> 00:08:41.678 You often feel unseen because everyone's just pushing on you to do something. 00:08:41.768 --> 00:08:45.098 And so that's, that's my hope there because it is a very joyful job. 00:08:45.098 --> 00:08:50.858 Or it can be, um, but you do have to go into it very carefully or it becomes. 00:08:51.853 --> 00:08:53.193 Not joyful if you 00:08:53.383 --> 00:08:54.608 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, yeah. 00:08:54.938 --> 00:08:55.568 Absolutely. 00:08:56.348 --> 00:09:04.388 Um, well, I'm gonna ask you to maybe pull out maybe one or two kind of key nuggets from your book that are, that are really like, oh my gosh. 00:09:04.388 --> 00:09:08.648 I was just, and I'm gonna share one first just to take the heat off of you. 00:09:09.008 --> 00:09:09.728 Um, okay. 00:09:09.728 --> 00:09:11.408 To give you some time to think, but 00:09:11.978 --> 00:09:12.128 Maria Bordeleau: if 00:09:12.128 --> 00:09:16.033 Mike Caldwell: you think about like, the school leader that's listening to this and maybe, you know, they're listening mm-hmm. 00:09:16.038 --> 00:09:18.098 To, with, with the hopeful you. 00:09:18.788 --> 00:09:27.548 Uh, goal of pulling something out of this conversation that we're having that can actually help them today, help them tomorrow. 00:09:27.548 --> 00:09:27.638 Mm-hmm. 00:09:27.638 --> 00:09:29.228 Help them this week, not just theory. 00:09:30.278 --> 00:09:36.698 Um, think about like what are some of those nuggets that you learned in your 25 plus years as a school leader that, um mm-hmm. 00:09:37.023 --> 00:09:42.068 Made the work for you more sustainable and also more joyful, um, in the work? 00:09:42.668 --> 00:09:42.758 Yep. 00:09:42.848 --> 00:09:44.258 And I'll share one as you're thinking. 00:09:44.258 --> 00:09:53.948 Like what I was, I, I'll go back to that school leader I was just talking to and she was really stressed over some upcoming parent meetings and an upcoming teacher. 00:09:54.008 --> 00:09:57.458 Like some of those that we're sharing, you know, that had. 00:09:58.023 --> 00:10:03.903 Ax to grind or someone that was, you know, challenging a decision or, or whatever the case may be. 00:10:04.683 --> 00:10:21.273 And one of the things that helped me over time as a school leader is taking the pressure off of myself saying, it's not my job to get consensus on my decisions or to make you feel happy with my decisions. 00:10:21.723 --> 00:10:25.353 Um, because I'm making decisions off of things that you don't. 00:10:25.973 --> 00:10:26.933 Completely understand. 00:10:26.933 --> 00:10:34.463 And I also, somebody, somebody has to make the hard decision even, and they're not all gonna be perfect and not all gonna be agreed upon. 00:10:35.063 --> 00:10:48.218 What I feel like more is my job is to make sure that you feel heard when you have a disagreement or a question or, or want to discuss something, I can make you feel good, feel, feel heard, um, mm-hmm. 00:10:48.383 --> 00:10:50.153 And take what you're telling me. 00:10:50.633 --> 00:10:53.003 Um, and if it's something that's. 00:10:53.393 --> 00:10:58.763 I can walk away with a new learning or a new perspective and apply it to future decisions, great. 00:10:59.183 --> 00:11:00.533 But my job isn't to. 00:11:01.958 --> 00:11:06.728 Make everyone happy and to make everybody agree on particular decisions. 00:11:06.758 --> 00:11:10.628 'cause that's just, once you kind of take that away, like that's just not gonna happen. 00:11:10.628 --> 00:11:12.038 You're not gonna make everybody happy. 00:11:12.488 --> 00:11:18.548 Um, but you can still kind of listen with an open ear and with empathy and to. 00:11:18.998 --> 00:11:26.528 Try to understand different perspectives, but know that at the end of the day, you're the one in the arena that have to make difficult cha choices. 00:11:26.618 --> 00:11:30.878 And, um, it's okay that not everybody agrees with certain decisions that you make. 00:11:31.418 --> 00:11:31.988 So, mm-hmm. 00:11:32.228 --> 00:11:37.868 That's one that helped me get to a point where I didn't feel this like pressure to appease. 00:11:38.308 --> 00:11:43.858 All the different people or entity, you know, stakeholders that might have disagreement with me, so. 00:11:43.933 --> 00:11:44.353 Maria Bordeleau: Mm-hmm. 00:11:44.458 --> 00:11:45.868 Mike Caldwell: So I've taken the pressure off of you. 00:11:45.868 --> 00:11:51.598 What would you pull out from your book as maybe some of those key nuggets that somebody could take away? 00:11:51.658 --> 00:11:51.778 Yep. 00:11:51.868 --> 00:11:52.768 From this conversation, 00:11:52.768 --> 00:11:52.778 Maria Bordeleau: uh. 00:11:53.438 --> 00:12:08.048 Yeah, I think I'm gonna take two steps back from where you started with yours because I think you do have to get comfortable with people disagreeing with you, and you do have to get comfortable with knowing that you're talked about at the cocktail parties, you're talked about at this coffee shops and. 00:12:08.848 --> 00:12:11.008 Positively and negatively and just gotta go. 00:12:11.098 --> 00:12:11.578 Okay. 00:12:11.938 --> 00:12:14.338 And get that, develop that, those calluses. 00:12:14.698 --> 00:12:25.858 But I think when you're in those moments of having to make those decisions that not everyone's gonna agree with, or people are gonna see differently or not fully understand the scope, you do have to come at it from a, a place. 00:12:25.858 --> 00:12:29.578 I'm, I'm a huge fan of Simon Sinek and, and knowing your why. 00:12:29.813 --> 00:12:32.663 And really having a strong sense of leaning into your why. 00:12:33.113 --> 00:12:43.133 And whatever your school's mission statement is, religious based or not, or whatever your, the purpose or the vision everybody has, or the strategic plan you have for this school. 00:12:43.523 --> 00:12:51.323 You have to make sure you're leaning back into that and you can say, look, this is how we're, um, this is the decision because it leans into our. 00:12:51.743 --> 00:12:57.083 Our mission and our, our vision and our purpose, and this is the why of our school. 00:12:57.293 --> 00:13:00.713 And if, and, and so that, and say, if you disagree with that, I am sorry. 00:13:00.713 --> 00:13:02.993 But that's, at the end of the day, that's the deal. 00:13:03.323 --> 00:13:06.023 Um, I think that's, that's, that's the first part. 00:13:06.023 --> 00:13:14.213 And then be okay with people just maybe seeing it differently and being okay with that, knowing that you do have to, um. 00:13:15.098 --> 00:13:18.488 Um, hold a lot more information than people fully realize. 00:13:18.548 --> 00:13:23.048 Um, I still remember the person that someone was really upset because they felt very a teacher. 00:13:23.048 --> 00:13:24.848 We felt very attacked by teachers. 00:13:25.208 --> 00:13:26.738 Uh, pa some parents, excuse me. 00:13:27.068 --> 00:13:32.078 And she looks at me and she says, do you know what it's like to have people talking behind your back every day? 00:13:32.078 --> 00:13:33.878 And I was just like, uh, no. 00:13:33.878 --> 00:13:34.838 I have no idea. 00:13:34.868 --> 00:13:35.288 None. 00:13:35.378 --> 00:13:35.528 None. 00:13:35.528 --> 00:13:36.878 I can't, I can't even begin. 00:13:37.238 --> 00:13:39.608 Um, I just, um, I had to stop myself from like. 00:13:39.748 --> 00:13:40.798 Doing exactly what you do. 00:13:40.798 --> 00:13:46.468 We just, just laugh because it's, it is hard and it does take, um, some time. 00:13:46.498 --> 00:13:56.098 But I think the other part too, that I did not do, this is where I can say part of what I included in my book that, um, we're learning lessons. 00:13:56.128 --> 00:13:57.388 'cause I was, uh. 00:13:58.123 --> 00:14:14.303 I was a young 28-year-old principal, um, for the, my first year and my, the average age of my staff at the time was 54, and so there was a little bit of a generational piece there, and I was full of the hubris of a 28-year-old that was given. 00:14:15.743 --> 00:14:18.503 Um, the keys to the school and 00:14:18.533 --> 00:14:18.833 Mike Caldwell: yeah, 00:14:18.863 --> 00:14:20.513 Maria Bordeleau: I was very excited. 00:14:20.513 --> 00:14:22.823 I was full of purpose, full of vision. 00:14:23.243 --> 00:14:32.183 Um, but I think that's the other part though, is when you're going through those things as a visionary leadership, uh, leader, um, an instructional leader. 00:14:32.733 --> 00:14:33.753 All of those things. 00:14:33.813 --> 00:14:37.323 Um, I think the tortoise and the hare becomes a big part of it. 00:14:37.323 --> 00:14:39.633 And you've gotta be, be okay with the tortoise. 00:14:39.633 --> 00:14:47.913 Small, steady progress is gonna win that race 'cause, and I think I learned that early on, and I learned it some in the hard way when I was trying to do too much. 00:14:47.913 --> 00:14:55.788 And I was overwhelming my, my, my team, um, because, and, and doing things in the way that, um, didn't honor the history. 00:14:56.658 --> 00:14:58.398 Um, and I think that's a big part of it. 00:14:58.488 --> 00:15:03.528 Um, and I think the other part too is leaning into, um. 00:15:04.643 --> 00:15:07.223 You know, you gotta let people do what they're gonna do. 00:15:07.223 --> 00:15:08.573 You can't control it all. 00:15:08.753 --> 00:15:12.413 Um, I know I'm stealing Mel Robbins lines and so thank you to Mel Robbins. 00:15:12.413 --> 00:15:15.413 I'll give her full credit and you have to go do what you have to do. 00:15:15.413 --> 00:15:21.743 And it's, it's super important to always remember that, um, because that's part of being in the arena, is letting them do what they're gonna do. 00:15:21.923 --> 00:15:27.263 And then you just have to be ready to do what you have to do and do the things you can control and keep. 00:15:27.648 --> 00:15:29.898 Steady steadily moving on. 00:15:30.408 --> 00:15:36.468 Um, but I think, um, those are some of the nuggets I think I would take away from somebody as you were talking about. 00:15:37.218 --> 00:15:38.178 Um, but 00:15:38.178 --> 00:15:38.658 Mike Caldwell: yeah, the tor 00:15:38.688 --> 00:15:40.428 Maria Bordeleau: it is, you do have to, oh, go ahead. 00:15:41.418 --> 00:15:43.518 Mike Caldwell: Say the tortoise in the hare resonates with me. 00:15:43.608 --> 00:15:46.488 Um, you know, one of my mentors, um. 00:15:46.843 --> 00:15:50.653 You know, when I, especially as an early, early years principle, I was same thing. 00:15:50.653 --> 00:15:51.973 Just like go, go, go. 00:15:52.003 --> 00:15:56.023 You know, just kind of pushing faster than people were ready to be pushed. 00:15:56.023 --> 00:16:02.923 And so for me it was walk before you or crawl before you walk, walk before you run and go slow to go fast. 00:16:02.983 --> 00:16:03.073 Mm-hmm. 00:16:03.433 --> 00:16:04.033 Were the two kind of 00:16:04.273 --> 00:16:04.513 Maria Bordeleau: Yep. 00:16:04.513 --> 00:16:14.068 Mike Caldwell: Similar sentiments that resonated with me, that I had to learn the hard way because you might have all these great, what you think are great ideas, but great ideas are, are. 00:16:14.783 --> 00:16:16.493 Nothing without the people coming along. 00:16:16.493 --> 00:16:19.253 So you gotta make sure that one, are they really a great idea? 00:16:19.253 --> 00:16:20.303 And how can you make 'em better? 00:16:20.303 --> 00:16:26.753 And how do you get people, um, to buy in and come along with you, um, if it truly is a great idea. 00:16:27.383 --> 00:16:28.553 I wanna shift gears a little bit. 00:16:28.553 --> 00:16:36.233 You've led through, um, 9 11, 0 8 recession, COVID, um, and you're here today. 00:16:36.593 --> 00:16:37.043 Um 00:16:37.043 --> 00:16:37.913 Maria Bordeleau: mm-hmm. 00:16:37.914 --> 00:16:41.033 Mike Caldwell: As you, as you look back and, and right now, I mean. 00:16:42.203 --> 00:16:47.753 You know, there's crisis of other sorts that, that school leaders are, are dealing with. 00:16:47.753 --> 00:16:48.593 I mean, it's just a really mm-hmm. 00:16:48.833 --> 00:16:50.693 Difficult time right now in education. 00:16:52.239 --> 00:17:03.849 So as you look back as a school leader, what did those, um, crises teach you and what really holds what you really believe holds a school together when everything feels fragile? 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:06.909 I think that's what, where a lot of people feel right now. 00:17:08.844 --> 00:17:11.424 Maria Bordeleau: Um, I think there's, there's two things. 00:17:11.454 --> 00:17:27.444 Um, and I'm gonna be repeating myself the first one, which is E during each of those, those crises, um, and, uh, other ones smaller throughout the time, um, it really is about mission and just holding onto what your purpose is and not getting caught up in the, in the bigger picture of it. 00:17:27.834 --> 00:17:29.394 Um, and I think that was. 00:17:29.694 --> 00:17:38.454 Um, so I was leading a Catholic school, tuition based school and during the recession, and our mission is to provide a Catholic education, one for example. 00:17:38.454 --> 00:17:48.024 And so if I'm holding onto that, then really working with families and not just making it, if you can't pay goodbye, if you can pay, say hello, and it's a black and white. 00:17:48.024 --> 00:17:56.604 There was a finesse and a need to, to work with families to honor our mission and who we wanted to be and protect people and their dignity during a very difficult time. 00:17:56.754 --> 00:17:58.374 For example, um. 00:17:58.794 --> 00:18:04.854 But I think the other part too, though, um, is calm and steady. 00:18:04.944 --> 00:18:11.634 Um, because you can't, you have to, everyone's gonna come at you in, in panic. 00:18:12.384 --> 00:18:18.384 And if you think about the tornado, what is the calmest part, part of, uh, hurricane, excuse me, the hurricane. 00:18:18.744 --> 00:18:20.544 And that's the center of the hurricane. 00:18:21.474 --> 00:18:23.634 It's, it's totally common inside that center. 00:18:23.634 --> 00:18:29.034 And that's where you have to, to be because everyone else is in the hurricane panic stricken. 00:18:29.094 --> 00:18:33.294 And they need you to stay, lead with a space of, let's hold on. 00:18:33.504 --> 00:18:34.494 It's gonna be okay. 00:18:34.824 --> 00:18:43.284 Let's take, you know, and, and, and walk them through how we're gonna manage this and give them the, and give them confidence to, to breathe again. 00:18:43.584 --> 00:18:45.504 And I think that can be really hard. 00:18:45.504 --> 00:18:46.374 But, um. 00:18:47.124 --> 00:18:48.144 It, it you. 00:18:48.174 --> 00:18:49.494 That's, that's the job. 00:18:49.524 --> 00:18:50.424 That's the role. 00:18:50.514 --> 00:19:05.664 And, um, I think that's though, when I think about what I'm trying to do in my coaching or through my book, um, with that idea of a company, it becomes super important because you have to be that person in the middle, just like a parent of a teenager or just a parent in general. 00:19:05.664 --> 00:19:06.804 You have to be the calm for them. 00:19:07.104 --> 00:19:10.044 You have to be the calm for those every, all of your shareholders. 00:19:10.104 --> 00:19:11.604 And, um. 00:19:11.959 --> 00:19:16.819 When you're doing that though, you need to make sure you have someone that's gonna help keep your calm there too. 00:19:16.879 --> 00:19:20.629 So, and having that person, um, is gonna be super important. 00:19:20.629 --> 00:19:29.149 But I think that's where, through all of those different moments, um, and others that are to come, you do have to, um, to do that. 00:19:29.149 --> 00:19:32.329 But I think the other part too though, is during those spaces of calm. 00:19:33.009 --> 00:19:51.579 Um, I want to encourage every 'cause it can be really hard and scary to lead during big, big moments or, or complicated moments like today, which no matter what decision you're gonna make, someone's gonna think that you're woke or you're, uh, whatever, whatever political orientation they're gonna kind of pull or whatever it's gonna be, they'll pull something out at you. 00:19:52.059 --> 00:19:55.029 Um, and I think that's where, um. 00:19:55.854 --> 00:20:00.654 You need to really make sure that, that the why is always there at the heart and the center of it. 00:20:01.134 --> 00:20:06.684 And I think you need to also make sure you're showing some courageous leadership and thinking creatively. 00:20:06.744 --> 00:20:10.884 Um, and, um, with ingenuity, self-reflection. 00:20:10.974 --> 00:20:11.304 Um. 00:20:11.939 --> 00:20:19.319 And this is gonna sound like a weird one, but indifference like, and I think about indifference as where it's not indifference about like LEY. 00:20:19.349 --> 00:20:30.239 Zel would've explained it in his talking of the Holocaust, which is like the opposite of hate, but indifference to how we get to an end point and being comfortable with lots of different ways to get to where we need to go. 00:20:30.749 --> 00:20:32.759 And not be so tied to a point. 00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:42.089 Um, and but being heroic enough and humble enough to allow all of the different solutions to emerge and not fight so hard for whatever you've decided a solution could be. 00:20:43.014 --> 00:20:44.509 So, but it, it's, it's hard. 00:20:44.569 --> 00:21:05.109 And I do think though, you do need to make sure that there's mentors, that you have partners, um, colleagues, whatever name you wanna call 'em, um, to really be there with you because, um, I think if as leaders and if you, especially, you know, transformational leaders, you do need people that are gonna be there with by your side because it does take a lot of courage and a lot of. 00:21:05.449 --> 00:21:13.069 Fortitude to, um, to show up and say, and to be that, that change agent, it's, it's not, um, an easy thing. 00:21:14.029 --> 00:21:14.329 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:21:14.329 --> 00:21:15.199 Without a doubt. 00:21:16.399 --> 00:21:24.679 I, I remember reading somewhere where you talked about, um, I think you said something like burnout isn't a personal failure, but a systems problem. 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:25.399 Um 00:21:25.404 --> 00:21:25.764 Maria Bordeleau: mm-hmm. 00:21:26.739 --> 00:21:27.759 Mike Caldwell: If I recall. 00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:28.209 Um, 00:21:28.689 --> 00:21:28.869 Maria Bordeleau: mm-hmm. 00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:35.619 Mike Caldwell: What, what systems or expecta expectations do you think most often push school leaders towards burnout? 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:39.909 And what do you think needs to change if we want leaders to stay for the long haul? 00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:41.139 Maria Bordeleau: Yeah. 00:21:41.229 --> 00:21:47.949 Um, I think the, and I think it's them as, sometimes it's the same things as, um, teachers that just too much is asked of them. 00:21:48.909 --> 00:21:52.869 Um, I don't think when the, um. 00:21:54.204 --> 00:22:10.374 Uh, so often the, the, those that are above you, whether it be at the di um, a diocese or a a county office district or a district's office, um, it's, it becomes very transactional and a top down. 00:22:10.404 --> 00:22:19.884 There's not a, a give and take, and there's not, and the only time you often hear from them is if something is wrong or they expect you to implement something. 00:22:20.734 --> 00:22:31.564 And I think that's where the systems break down is there are so many models out there for how to make sure that, that the principles are taken care of and the leaders are taken care of. 00:22:31.984 --> 00:22:33.454 Because like, so when I was, um. 00:22:34.269 --> 00:22:41.409 So the job, I think the job of principal is to make sure that the adult, other adults in the building are taken care of so they can take care of the kids. 00:22:41.709 --> 00:22:49.119 And I think the job above us would be to make sure the principals are taken care of so they have what it takes to take care of the people in the classrooms. 00:22:49.419 --> 00:22:51.279 And that's the part that gets broke. 00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:52.539 The bridge there is broken. 00:22:52.539 --> 00:22:53.499 And in my handbook, a servant 00:22:53.499 --> 00:22:54.399 Mike Caldwell: leadership right. 00:22:55.029 --> 00:22:55.539 Maria Bordeleau: Yes. 00:22:55.539 --> 00:22:56.079 Thank you. 00:22:56.139 --> 00:22:57.999 Um, you, you beat me to the punchline. 00:22:58.029 --> 00:22:59.049 Um, absolutely. 00:22:59.049 --> 00:23:01.239 And that's where I think that gets forgotten. 00:23:01.239 --> 00:23:11.649 It's more, um, and I, 'cause I don't remember the last time I ever went to a principal meeting and it felt like there was true support, accompaniment and, um, being heard. 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:18.009 Um, and I, and I, I wish I could be more positive on that one, but that it's one I actually feel very strongly about in that. 00:23:18.399 --> 00:23:23.559 Um, I think there's so much asked of that, uh, of principals and school leaders and. 00:23:24.234 --> 00:23:30.054 What, and even the parents, they, they, um, I'll, I'm gonna, I'll lean in hard in on the parents too, on this one. 00:23:30.354 --> 00:23:37.734 I think that there's such, um, taken for granted notion and I think that's where the system could do a little bit better job of setting them up for success. 00:23:38.184 --> 00:23:45.294 'cause um, if you think about the number of hats the school leader has to wear, as I was, I started naming a few, but there was more, um. 00:23:45.679 --> 00:23:58.909 It's a lot and half the time, um, I don't think the training we're supposed to get, um, working on, um, through the education at the university level actually fully prepare anybody for what's comes ahead. 00:23:58.999 --> 00:24:02.659 Um, I would also technically say that about some of the teacher programs though. 00:24:02.659 --> 00:24:06.229 'cause I think there's only so much you can be trained on until you actually live it. 00:24:06.229 --> 00:24:09.079 But, um, I do think that's where, um. 00:24:10.104 --> 00:24:33.714 Really looking at creating systems that are create sustainability, um, is, is big because it's right now, um, I don't think if you just look at the number of educators that are leaving the profession, um, and then school leaders and are even worse, um, it's not good and it's not gonna make for academic excellence in our schools that we need so desperately, um, in 2025. 00:24:35.199 --> 00:24:35.359 Absolutely. 00:24:35.364 --> 00:24:35.994 And beyond. 00:24:37.419 --> 00:24:39.489 Mike Caldwell: I wanna jump to something. 00:24:39.489 --> 00:24:45.729 You, you, and this is getting more to the, maybe the Catholic leader side, but I think it's, there's some Okay. 00:24:45.729 --> 00:24:47.499 Definitely some application here. 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.809 Um, regardless of kind of what model and kinda school you're, you're in. 00:24:54.384 --> 00:24:59.904 Um, but you talked to, you know, I think you'd say Ignatian spirituality plays a big role in your coaching work. 00:24:59.904 --> 00:25:01.239 Um mm-hmm. 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:09.624 And a lot of listeners might not know what I'm talking about there, so, um, but when you talk about things like discernment and reflection and the examine 00:25:09.774 --> 00:25:09.864 Maria Bordeleau: mm-hmm. 00:25:10.104 --> 00:25:15.114 Mike Caldwell: And how they shape the way you approach leadership and, and coaching principles, um. 00:25:15.414 --> 00:25:17.814 Can you talk a little bit about what, what all of that means? 00:25:17.814 --> 00:25:19.944 What, what are you talking about when you say discernment? 00:25:19.944 --> 00:25:22.374 Reflection and the examine and, 00:25:22.734 --> 00:25:22.884 Maria Bordeleau: yeah. 00:25:22.884 --> 00:25:29.934 Mike Caldwell: How could that apply, you know, more broadly outside of the, um, Catholic education space? 00:25:30.969 --> 00:25:40.299 Maria Bordeleau: Yeah, I think regardless of where you're, you're, you're what's, whatever type of school you're leading at, um, discern and self-reflection needs to be part of your normal practice. 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:50.109 Um, you have to remember to step away and take a few minutes, either that's, you know, whether that's be at a Catholic school and you go into the chapel and just have a few minutes a piece. 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:58.209 If it's at five o'clock after dinner and you're walking the dogs, whatever it might be, um, you need to find space to just be quiet. 00:25:58.409 --> 00:26:06.719 Um, and I say that place of, again, I learned more from my mistakes and my successes, fortunately or unfortunately, no, we all, yeah. 00:26:07.589 --> 00:26:09.389 Um, thank you for validating that. 00:26:10.259 --> 00:26:14.909 Um, but I do think though that it's so easy to rush through because you're like, I have the answer. 00:26:14.909 --> 00:26:15.569 I've lots to do. 00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:16.919 Let's go, let's go, let's go. 00:26:17.219 --> 00:26:19.529 And I think it's important to slow down. 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.709 'cause when I, I do do that, that, um. 00:26:23.264 --> 00:26:31.724 Inevitably, a effective solution will emerge than the one I'd originally wanted to just zip line on, zip line to really quickly. 00:26:32.054 --> 00:26:45.849 And, um, and, and I think that's where, um, and also in doing, like when you talk about that exam too, that can be part of that discernment and that slowing down and it, you take in that it asks you to like, look at what I did well. 00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:50.589 What I did, didn't do well, and I could do better, but also what to be grateful for. 00:26:50.829 --> 00:27:01.069 And I think it's really important because it's our, the job of a school leader is to be, is continue, be summed up in one line, be the problem solver, and that makes it so all the. 00:27:01.434 --> 00:27:18.684 Hard stuff gets thrown at you and you don't get the moments of, of, of joy or success or the wins that happen in your school because you're busy in your office dealing with the student that, um, said like, was bullying another student while everyone else was down at the rally celebrating the school. 00:27:18.684 --> 00:27:21.924 And that was like, may I missed it, I missed the good stuff. 00:27:21.984 --> 00:27:23.274 And that's where, um. 00:27:23.589 --> 00:27:32.409 You do have to take a moment and like, register the gratitude, register the wins, and also, and do the same thing for your, your, your team. 00:27:32.439 --> 00:27:35.829 Because I think it's easy to go into what do I have to fix as well? 00:27:35.829 --> 00:27:41.349 And that's all part of the exam and the self-reflection and the discernment around what's really happening. 00:27:41.439 --> 00:27:47.049 And so that you get the full picture and not just the emotional moments that that happens. 00:27:47.109 --> 00:27:49.929 Um, at, at what, at some point during your day. 00:27:50.664 --> 00:27:51.714 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:52.314 --> 00:28:02.994 You know, I was just at a, um, two day kind of workshop in this program that I just, um, started or just, uh, was accepted and, and it's a whole year long program. 00:28:02.994 --> 00:28:08.874 And, and, uh, one of the things that I took away from that was this concept or idea. 00:28:09.204 --> 00:28:12.819 I don't think it's novel, but it was, it was kind of a. Aha for me. 00:28:13.149 --> 00:28:20.019 But the idea beha between, um, a bat being, you know, having a battery versus a, um, power plant. 00:28:20.619 --> 00:28:27.279 And, and when I, I so often, you know, really felt, it was more the, for me it was the battery. 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.429 You, you grind work all day, you get home. 00:28:31.444 --> 00:28:38.824 Hopefully catch your breath, sleep for as many hours as you can, sleep with the, you know, depending things that keep you up at night and stuff like that. 00:28:38.824 --> 00:28:48.334 And then you wake up the next morning and you do it all over again, and each day you're not really replenishing that battery if you're just kind of relying on the day to day. 00:28:48.334 --> 00:28:52.539 And then you, and sleep is kind of your main replenishment, if you will, right. 00:28:53.709 --> 00:29:03.159 You start a hundred percent, maybe at the beginning of the week, maybe, um, by Tuesday you're starting Tuesday at maybe 80% and then so on and so forth. 00:29:03.159 --> 00:29:09.399 And then the, you know, the week you're just draining your battery versus kind of this power plant mentality. 00:29:09.459 --> 00:29:13.794 Um, and it gets to a little bit of what you're saying is thinking about kind of the four. 00:29:14.464 --> 00:29:19.564 Pieces that really boost your battery or boost your power. 00:29:20.074 --> 00:29:28.684 One being sleep and how important sleep is, um, for, for you and, and like what do you, what are you doing to maximize your sleep before you go to sleep? 00:29:28.684 --> 00:29:31.144 And, you know, setting yourself up for the maximum sleep. 00:29:31.144 --> 00:29:35.434 So you're getting, you know, hopefully seven to plus hours of sleep, right? 00:29:35.884 --> 00:29:43.564 Your nutrition, you know, for me, like water intake and eating, eating right, like it's a big part of your, your power plant movement. 00:29:44.069 --> 00:29:47.339 What you're doing for exercise, to take care of yourself, to really boost. 00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:55.199 I know for me, like when I go get on a bike for 30 minutes or whatever, like the way I feel after that is just incredible. 00:29:55.529 --> 00:30:00.089 Um, but then also, you know, whether you call it meditation or reflection or you know. 00:30:00.504 --> 00:30:22.224 Whatever, but like taking the time for just allowing your mind to rest and to pause, um, whether that's a guided meditation or just like go outside and soak up the sun for five minutes and just be at present, but all four of those things really being part of your power plant and like what are you doing to kinda rejuvenate. 00:30:22.284 --> 00:30:28.974 Your, your battery, so to speak, as opposed to just kind of grinding, grinding it down day in, day out. 00:30:29.244 --> 00:30:34.164 So that's what kind of resonates when you're talking a little bit about the reflection, discernment, and examine. 00:30:34.644 --> 00:30:34.734 Maria Bordeleau: Mm-hmm. 00:30:36.054 --> 00:30:36.234 Yeah. 00:30:36.234 --> 00:30:52.044 I also think, um, the word that kept coming to mind as you were talking were boundaries and it really becomes important to set some boundaries around and be an intention, uh, and a sense of intentionality around how things are done, because it's really easy to get pulled into. 00:30:53.019 --> 00:30:58.119 The crisis that someone throws at you that doesn't necessarily have to be a crisis. 00:30:58.419 --> 00:31:01.929 And you, and you can say that can wait till Monday and it's okay. 00:31:01.929 --> 00:31:02.829 And put it down. 00:31:02.919 --> 00:31:09.189 Um, if it's like, if it's three 30 on a Friday afternoon, um, and making sure you balance those out. 00:31:09.219 --> 00:31:10.119 'cause it, it is. 00:31:10.629 --> 00:31:19.839 So, and I, I say this because I wanna say to all the listeners that, um, I think sometimes you hear all these things, you wanna roll your eyes and say, do you know what's on my to-do list? 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.249 Do you know what my family's expecting me? 00:31:21.249 --> 00:31:22.149 Do you know what the kids are expecting? 00:31:22.149 --> 00:31:22.929 You know, all those things. 00:31:22.929 --> 00:31:29.439 And I, I think it's, it's fair to that because it is really hard and it can be overwhelming when everything is getting thrown at you. 00:31:29.944 --> 00:31:39.274 But I do think that's where, what, being intentional and creating systems for yourself, um, and setting boundaries for yourself are super important and it can be as easy. 00:31:39.274 --> 00:31:51.064 And the other part too that I think is, um, helpful in this too is, um, and I heard that this is what like Warren Buffet did and you know, who doesn't wanna be Warren Buffet, um, in some form or fashion. 00:31:51.139 --> 00:31:54.139 Um, is he doesn't have a to-do list. 00:31:54.139 --> 00:31:56.059 He has a calendar, and so he puts everything. 00:31:56.059 --> 00:32:07.904 He schedules time for everything, and he, and then there's a differentiation between the seeds and the weeds and making sure that more time is put into seeds, which are growth oriented activities rather than weeds that are. 00:32:08.309 --> 00:32:12.329 Things gotta get done, but they don't support growth of, of the school. 00:32:12.869 --> 00:32:17.549 And I think that goes back to that whole idea of intentionality, whatever that looked like to you. 00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:21.089 Um, and setting those boundaries too though with people. 00:32:21.149 --> 00:32:21.509 Um. 00:32:22.254 --> 00:32:29.244 I think, um, it can be very meaningful when you're trying to be, manage that power plant that you talk about, which I think is a great way to put that. 00:32:29.244 --> 00:32:31.014 I might steal that sometime, if you don't mind. 00:32:32.094 --> 00:32:32.274 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:32:32.274 --> 00:32:33.624 I'm gonna steal the seeds and weeds. 00:32:33.624 --> 00:32:37.104 I haven't heard that one from, uh, on buffet, so that's, that's good stuff. 00:32:38.274 --> 00:32:41.724 Well, as we, we round up maybe last question as you look back Yeah. 00:32:41.904 --> 00:32:49.524 Now with your 25 plus years experience, a book in them making or almost finished your coaching business. 00:32:49.524 --> 00:32:49.584 Yeah. 00:32:50.454 --> 00:32:50.964 Um. 00:32:51.324 --> 00:32:55.224 What do you wish someone had told you before you became a principal? 00:32:57.504 --> 00:33:00.954 Maria Bordeleau: Um, I think, um, 00:33:02.994 --> 00:33:04.674 not to, um. 00:33:06.774 --> 00:33:07.764 To those boundaries. 00:33:07.764 --> 00:33:23.824 I didn't set the good boundaries early on in terms of allowing, trying to be that per like that something to everybody and feeling like if I wasn't available or trying to fix the problem or wa wasn't, you know, somehow that was what was important and realizing that that need, I didn't. 00:33:24.774 --> 00:33:31.344 Embrace the need for rest and, um, rejuvenation and setting of those limitations early on. 00:33:31.464 --> 00:33:43.674 Um, and I think I would've been much more successful, much sooner, um, if I had done that because, um, I had to learn not to let everyone else's stuff become my stuff. 00:33:43.824 --> 00:33:45.114 And, um. 00:33:46.584 --> 00:33:55.644 And just a a and stay the course, um, and be that slow and steady person and be comfortable with that and know that, that I was on mission. 00:33:56.604 --> 00:33:56.664 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, 00:33:56.664 --> 00:34:01.194 Maria Bordeleau: because it can be really hard 'cause people like to get you throw those shiny gold balls at you and get, distract you. 00:34:01.314 --> 00:34:03.774 And it's, that's, those are powerful magnets. 00:34:04.044 --> 00:34:05.364 Or they can be, if you're not careful. 00:34:06.009 --> 00:34:07.119 Mike Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:07.749 --> 00:34:16.719 Well, the last, last question I think, I hope to paraphrase, uh, the Jethro closing question is, uh, for you Marie, what does it mean mm-hmm. 00:34:16.754 --> 00:34:18.214 To be a Transformative Principal? 00:34:20.274 --> 00:34:21.174 Maria Bordeleau: Oh my gosh. 00:34:21.204 --> 00:34:22.164 What does it mean? 00:34:22.284 --> 00:34:22.854 Um, 00:34:23.484 --> 00:34:24.054 Mike Caldwell: what does it mean for you? 00:34:24.054 --> 00:34:25.494 Maria Bordeleau: I think, yeah. 00:34:25.644 --> 00:34:30.654 Um, I think for me it means being someone that transforms an individual life. 00:34:31.044 --> 00:34:46.614 Um, I think about the individual, um, kiddo who looks back and said, I, Dr. Borolo made, um, a transport, had a transformational moment for me, a teacher who I can say, um, I transformed something for them. 00:34:47.094 --> 00:34:47.364 Um. 00:34:47.864 --> 00:34:54.914 I think those are the moments that really resonate with me and make it so like that arena is so joy filled. 00:34:54.974 --> 00:35:04.784 Um, and I think when you're looking at that from the individual transformation, that trans, that becomes the transformation within this in the school building. 00:35:04.934 --> 00:35:11.174 Um, 'cause I, I think to a certain extent, uh, it's not that it's easy, but it's, um. 00:35:11.709 --> 00:35:21.879 It's easy to look beyond the individuals and, um, look at the big transformational, get the new program, get the new building and all of this, and transform it. 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:23.084 Um, I think that can be. 00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:25.389 Those can be very rewarding. 00:35:25.389 --> 00:35:35.259 But when you really look at why we get into this work, it's the individual that, that, um, the family that needed help because their, their 2-year-old was suffering with leukemia. 00:35:35.259 --> 00:35:40.299 Um, the family that didn't know how they were gonna support their student that just got diagnosed with autism. 00:35:40.729 --> 00:35:46.219 The teacher that was struggling because their husband was sick at home and they needed to work, they were struggling. 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:59.689 All those things that you bring them into those moments of help and support and accompaniment are the ones that I think really make it so when you look back, you can say I was transformative as a leader in those, in those that those those schools. 00:36:00.139 --> 00:36:02.419 And that's, um, what. 00:36:03.594 --> 00:36:11.904 Like warm, I guess it warms my heart or brings a big smile to my face or, or that sense of joy is to think about those individuals, um, as a, as a rule of them. 00:36:12.714 --> 00:36:12.894 Mike Caldwell: Yeah. 00:36:13.689 --> 00:36:13.899 Awesome. 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:14.619 Absolutely. 00:36:14.889 --> 00:36:17.169 Well, Marie, thank you for your time today. 00:36:17.169 --> 00:36:24.519 One last plug and I'll put it in the show notes, um, for your upcoming book that's gonna be released sometime, maybe March in the next month or 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:24.609 Maria Bordeleau: so. 00:36:24.609 --> 00:36:27.069 Uh, March 20, March 26th is the date. 00:36:27.339 --> 00:36:29.589 Um, yeah, I just, um, I'm waiting. 00:36:29.589 --> 00:36:33.194 I get the cover in the next few days and, um, I'm very excited. 00:36:33.194 --> 00:36:33.474 Awesome. 00:36:33.489 --> 00:36:35.169 It's, it's kind of becoming very real. 00:36:35.169 --> 00:36:35.949 So yeah. 00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:37.119 Thank you for having me on today. 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:38.109 This was a lot of fun. 00:36:38.169 --> 00:36:38.259 Yeah, I 00:36:38.259 --> 00:36:38.799 Mike Caldwell: appreciate it. 00:36:38.804 --> 00:36:39.489 The dust and the glory. 00:36:39.564 --> 00:36:42.654 Finding God in the chaos of Catholic school leadership is the title of the book. 00:36:42.654 --> 00:36:43.434 And again, we'll, 00:36:43.554 --> 00:36:43.914 Maria Bordeleau: yeah, 00:36:44.034 --> 00:36:50.934 Mike Caldwell: put uh, your website and your contact information in the show notes so that when uh, people wanna reach out to you directly. 00:36:50.934 --> 00:36:51.324 Great. 00:36:51.324 --> 00:36:55.044 And you can also find Marie on link leaders.com as one of our mentors. 00:36:55.044 --> 00:36:56.904 So a lot of ways to contact her. 00:36:56.994 --> 00:36:57.864 Marie, thanks again. 00:36:58.524 --> 00:36:59.184 Appreciate you. 00:36:59.184 --> 00:37:02.664 Thank, and, uh, alright, and everybody else, we'll see you at the next show. 00:37:02.754 --> 00:37:03.594 Thanks for joining us.