Sam: hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam.
I'm Joe
Joe: Loh
Ali: and I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show.
Bromance.
Uh, Allie found a quote from one of her.
Feminist texts that she's constantly reading.
And sent it to the group.
How dare you?
We thought we'd read it out and have a chat about it.
Sam: yeah, look, it is.
I think it's a pretty interesting quote.
It's definitely up for debate, but let's get into it.
To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex.
Brackets fucking exclusively with the other sex.
I E women closed brackets, all or most of that which pertains to love.
Most straight men reserve exclusively for other men.
The people whom they admire respect, adore.
Revere honor.
Whom they imitate idolize and form profound attachments to.
Whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn and
whose respect, admiration recognition, honor reverence and love, they desire.
Those are overwhelmingly other men.
In their relations with women, what passes for respect?
His kindness, generosity or paternalism.
What passes for honor.
His removal to the pedestal.
From women, they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic.
It is man loving.
And that's from Maryland fry, the politics of reality essays in feminist theory.
Friend of yours.
Oh,
Ali: No, I just, seen a few discussions around yeah.
That romance.
It's really from men is reserved for other men.
And not women.
Like in the traditional sense.
Sam: And we, and we don't have to reality check these.
We can just talk about it in a conceptual way, but you know, is it worth asking.
Is that what, you know, if you observed that with male partners in the past, that.
There was something special about their interactions with other men
that you felt was not present?
Yeah.
Between you.
Ali: Uh, thoughtful fullness and acts of love and.
You know, Between.
Yeah.
They're mates in, in a really lovely way.
Like it's not to say, like, I think it's a wonderful thing to have that
sort of friendship and connection with somebody, but It's it has been
my observation that, yeah, that is often reserved for their friends
and not necessarily their partners.
Like you got a partner who's like, oh, I wish we could go on dates.
We could do this.
Those sorts of things that, you know, most long-term couples, you.
Yeah, sure.
Quality time.
And then, you know, they're organizing, you know, a trip to
spend quality time with their mate.
Like wouldn't bat an eyelid, like, oh, we're going to go away for the weekend and
have a fishing trip or whatever it is in.
Those sorts or.
Yeah, the thoughtful gifts even I've seen.
I've observed, like really thought, really funny, thoughtful.
Things that bad.
Yeah, just could not bring themselves to do that for their partner.
That was the exam.
Yeah, that's right.
Sam: That was the, I was going to.
At the risk of, you know, baiting you.
, did you see a a boy, a young man, perhaps give his mate a really just
spot on gift, but just never quite managed to land a gift with you as
accurately, or maybe not even close
Ali: or not.
Yeah.
But, but yeah, but like observing that.
You know, and, and that, that's not just, in my relationships, but
something I've witnessed broadly and that, you know, even, you know,
if you look at, in the context of.
, men.
Revering the art of other men.
Yeah.
Sure.
If you even think of like, the military or in those sort of.
Actions where they yep.
There's love and respect.
It is a love and respect there.
That's just simply that is reserved for other men.
Sam: Devotion, tenderness, reverence.
Joe: I've experienced it in cricket teams.
So a whole bunch of thoughts.
You would have, yeah.
I was mostly with that quote until.
I said homoerotic and I'm like, I think you finally gone
a little bit too far lady.
Sam: Well, . Um, wanting to get into that too, but first let's concentrate on the
part of the thesis you do agree with.
Joe: Yeah.
So.
There's a bitterness to it.
Yes, it's a thesis.
I think so.
I'm not getting what you're giving to your male friends.
Yeah.
I mean, it's completely different.
Relationship.
Sam: I don't think anyone becomes a feminist.
If they haven't experienced.
And I don't say that to dismiss.
I don't think anyone becomes a Marxist.
Who are not experiencing.
And the woman who wrote that
Joe: might be a lesbian separatists feminists.
I don't know, but
Sam: yeah.
Joe: It's a funny thing to read too, because unlike Ellie, I don't sit
around reading feminist texts and it's almost like reading someone who's
in a zoo, observing some animals.
They don't really understand or something.
Oh, well, There's an outsider perspective that I'm like, oh,
Sam: It sounds detached and anthropological.
I actually, I, I enjoy it.
I think it's.
Thundering passage.
It's really good.
Joe: Uh, intelligent and there's a lot of truth in that.
Absolutely.
And maybe it goes to understand,
Ali: do you feel uncomfortable with that truth?
I
Joe: liked it as a quote up until she said homoerotic, then
I'm like, eh, you went too far.
Yeah.
Kind of fell off the edge of your rhetorical.
But you mountain that you were building, that was quite powerful.
And then you said, Oh, but they secretly want to fuck each other.
It's like, no.
I
Sam: think maybe.
Ali: A lot of them do.
And a lot of them.
But even if you're looking at small
Joe: percentage,
Ali: But not a lot, but even like the bodies of other men or
in the characteristics that you.
Yeah, look up to and admire and aspire to be like it's other men.
So there is that sort of.
Yeah.
At a ration for.
for men in that way.
Joe: Yeah.
It's like Michelangelo's David.
Yeah.
Well, it's been going on.
Not a bad
Sam: example because.
You know that that is homoerotic.
Yeah.
It was thought to be.
And Michael Angela certainly was, was gay.
Wasn't he?
Ali: I'm not sure.
Joe: No.
I mean.
If you want to go back in time, this, this adoration of the male body and
of men has always been there and it's there when I watch a game of football.
Yes.
You know, and men was short sleeves and short shorts and
they're amazing physiques.
And.
But I'm sitting there and I'm not thinking how much I want to fuck them.
I'm appreciating the power and the beauty and the athleticism and all of that.
Yeah, without going to that extra kind of corny degree of like, while you secretly
want to fuck them, it's like, no, I don't.
But, but the stuff about how have I been kinder, more thoughtful?
Uh, more respectful.
Uh, have I assumed more intelligence?
Have I gone to more effort with, with men?
Over the years.
Yeah, I think at times, I mean, I've had.
I also had me, you
Sam: and who have stood by each other.
Joe: And my best friend since for 30 years.
Yeah.
And it doesn't matter what I do.
It doesn't matter if I got publicly shamed and canceled.
Uh, he would still, it doesn't matter if I went to jail, he would come and visit me.
Yeah, that's right now.
I probably have female friends like that too.
I can think of one or two.
And
So do you inherently
Ali: value?
The achievements of men over women.
Joe: Yeah, all the, all the more, my favorite riders.
Artists.
Yeah.
Musicians.
They're all tend to be men.
Yeah.
Uh, like I'm in, I'm obsessed with like someone like Allana Del Ray
or something, but it's in a very.
Again,
Sam: Bad example, that music is just drenched in heterosexuality.
Yeah.
And I love it.
Yeah.
She's got great clips.
Yeah.
Joe: Oh, they're great songs, but like, I see your.
Sam: you myself, but yeah.
Joe: Yeah, no, she's incredibly talented, but when.
Tension.
She tends
Sam: to be incredibly attractive like that.
Sure.
Joe: because.
When you're in undergrad uni, all this stuff gets problematized.
Right.
And you're like, yeah, problematic that we're doing it now.
Well, where it's a bit of an undergrad show.
Right.
But like it's problematic that your frame report.
He's on the road and it's problematic on the road is about.
Uh, this friendship, maybe love, maybe sexual love.
Yeah.
Two men.
But that becomes an archetype.
So my friendship with my best friend, of course, It's like
cell paradise and day Moriarty.
That's that story got told to me when I was 16.
Yeah.
And it's like two guys of have each other's back.
Right.
Yeah, because you got to understand for a lot of straight men.
A woman is an incredibly mysterious thing.
Hmm.
And we sit around and talking about how we don't understand women.
Sure.
Right.
So there's a, there's a bonding that happens there too.
Shared experience of, of just.
Incomprehension.
In comprehension.
Ali: But what stops you from just asking a woman?
Joe: Because women kind of, I can't explain a lot of their own actions.
Emotions.
That's been my experience.
I mean, you must've loved that.
Mine as good as it gets unexplainable things all the time.
I don't remember the health
Ali: problems.
Sam: Yeah.
You must have loved that line and as good as it gets, where someone says
to a Jack Nicholson's character, cause he's a writer and you know,
how do you get woman in your books?
I take man.
And then I remove all reason and accountability.
I remember that.
So
Joe: did you resonate with this quote, Sam?
I think it's true.
Yeah.
Do you feel like you've been.
Deeper in your male friendships than you have in your female
relationships at times.
Sam: But I think what what's happened over the years is
went to coed schooling, right?
The way through as did you.
but because growing up in the higher Christians.
It was a bit of a special context and.
I think.
That early on the, the gender division was not particularly strong as it often
isn't, um, just in, you know, normal childhood settings, boys and girls don't
automatically drift apart right away.
And, you know, physically, emotionally, they're quite similar up to a certain age.
PVD obviously does have some impacts.
There's no denying it, so does the action of, you know, we talked
about this before an incredibly huge effort goes into gender and culture.
A huge effort goes into gender in products for children and for adults, but with.
For some reason, they go really hard on it with kids.
Ali: It was socialized from such a young age to these are the expectations
around what you should ensure to do.
It's not like.
Behave and not, yeah.
Like for every facet of their lives.
Sam: Absolutely.
And there.
Encouraged to really lean in to those identities that are at a young age now,
for some, I think for some reason in the Harry's, cause it was a bit of an
insider outsider vibe, and we felt.
Like weird.
People surrounded by.
Other weird people, but you know where the normal ones, everyone
else is weird, but where the weird ones and everyone else is normal.
If you see what I mean.
So I think the solidarity amongst us, cause we're also
boarding school kids as well.
And there's only like, you know, maybe 30, 40 of us, we.
You can't be too picky.
Ali: Hmm.
Sam: You can't just hang with the guys like you sorta need.
to mix it up and well, but also I think in my case, it was a survival
strategy to have female friends because.
It wasn't conscious at the time, but.
Okay, so here we're on gold.
We'll get gendered for just a second.
Not N wasn't necessarily getting the nurturing.
with the boys now over time that has changed.
And I've had nurturing from men.
At times and actually better at finding that and AXA, you know, and accessing
it and, and, um, making room for it.
And Joe might agree with me too.
but I can just remember going and playing with dolls.
And just finding it chill.
And I enjoyed the make-believe.
It taught, I think I was trying to.
You know, also being on the spectrum, learning roles and like,
. Ali: That imaginative play is not gendered.
Like.
Sam: What about acting it out?
And so I think that that helped me to connect and kind of.
not see them as a strange species and just as humans, humans.
the only area where we differed really was, when it was time to play weddings
and princesses, that I wanted to have a turn being the bride or the princess.
And that's where we differed.
Yeah.
I don't know if they were necessarily gender policing me.
I think sometimes they were, but we need someone to be the prince, and it
should be it's my turn to be the bride.
Because if there's three girls, they all want to be the bride.
But like over the years, you know, reading much the same kind of books.
And that's right.
And I started reading like babysitters club and like pony club
type books and stuff just cause I had girlfriends that read those.
Okay, I'll give those a go.
And here, why don't you give this fantasy novel ago or whatever.
And then in certainly in my twenties.
In some really, really, really hard times there were.
Female friends who, were just indispensable Because the question
I wanted to ask Joe a minute ago.
The times in your life where you've really felt.
Understood and seen and, you know, to use them modern pilots seen,
but, you know, excepted understood.
Held.
It was mostly with men.
Oh, I would assume.
Joe: No, it's mostly with women.
But it was mostly, probably in a sexual relationship.
Sam: Yeah.
But this is what I'm saying.
Like.
I mean, you're not giving this other person orgasms.
But they look at you and accept you completely.
Joe: Oh, I've only had a couple of those friendships.
Yeah.
I mean, I wanted to ask you, you got it.
You went into childhood.
I was more interested in coming up through adolescent.
Yeah, adolescent and adult hoard.
Yeah.
Did you have.
Have you had strong friendships, which.
I have been there as you've gone in and out of sexual relationships.
Strong male friendships.
Sam: Yeah.
No, not especially like, I mean, I've had certainly deep.
Friendships with other men, but over the years, I have had that
tendency to get too involved in a relationship and not look after the
other things as much as I should.
Yeah, and that's a
Joe: really common one, too.
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's.
I think it is quite makes me think that maybe women don't quite understand
what's going on in male friendships.
I think the biggest misunderstanding.
Yeah, that might be true of.
I've male friend of men in general from women.
But I see.
Is.
Just how simple most of us are.
Yeah.
Like this bafflement that I'll sit there and watch seven hours of live sport.
And that's all I'm doing.
Am I that's enough to occupy, occupy
Sam: my mind, but there's an analog to that, which is just like the
cliche of the lady watching seven hours of real Housewives or whatever.
It's just the same.
Joe: I think that's where women.
That they missed.
So, so in this quote, like it turns into this dramatic.
Homoerotic.
Intense thing where it's like, actually this looks.
Don most likely you'll sit next to me in a car and we'll drive up the Hume highway.
Listen to listen to some music.
You know that we both like, it's so simple.
Dumb.
Yeah.
I don't know how else to describe it.
It's not,
Ali: there's like a simplicity of just being yourself in the way that you feel
comfortable, that you can then be around other men also enjoying that simplicity.
Yeah.
You're not necessarily.
Communicating your emotions in a way that you do with women
or women do to each other.
So it's it, but it's more just occupying that space of living those emotions
rather than necessarily articulating them.
Joe: Yeah, I'll give you a good example of something that speaks to this.
Yeah, I know.
I think a bit, which is that we're used to in our twenties go out on a
Saturday night and have our adventures.
And try and pick up and try and get laid.
Or maybe we had a girlfriend at the time or whatever.
But then generally, mostly men would convene at a friend's
house on a Sunday afternoon.
I'd have a few beers and yeah.
Recount the previous night's events.
Hmm.
And.
That was that kind of male bonding where it's like, you
know, who got laid, who didn't.
Whose heart who's not hot.
I mean,
Sam: it just sounds like a blokey version of sex in the city.
Really.
Joe: It was like that because that show's
Sam: not about sex
Joe: at
Sam: all.
And you
Joe: would have to have the adventures.
Yeah, Friday and Saturday night so that you could talk about
them on the Sunday afternoon, but yeah, the commerce most connected.
Um, most grounded.
Grounding.
Yeah, nicest part of the weekend was often the Sunday with just the guys then.
Yeah.
For sure.
And there might be some sport on or your mind, or watch a TV show.
But the irony is in my life.
I have friends.
I wish I could have dinner with.
Male friends.
So in my twenties, it was just nonstop, male and female company, nonstop parties.
Yeah.
Mm, different dating different people.
The same friendships you don't.
I only ever added friendships in my twenties and thirties
just added new more people.
And then yeah, that the pool just got bigger and bigger and bigger.
Right.
Um, now my forties, it's like
Ali: very different.
Joe: I can have a date with a woman I've never met.
And sit down and have a coffee or did on.
Uh, via the internet.
And they pretty much have the same conversation over and over again.
With a new person, but I can't really sit down and have dinner with a
male friend because of all my kids.
They're all in different parts of the world.
Um, and so.
It's not homoerotic.
I don't want to fuck him, but I do miss that from my life.
Yeah.
You know, and when I go and play a game of cricket, it's there and the.
Yeah.
This is another thing I don't think women quite understand about men
or some way as a generalization.
Yeah.
I've played cricket with guys for 20 years and we have no, no idea
what each other does for a job.
Ali: We have
Joe: no idea whether each other is married.
Single life.
It doesn't matter.
We go out there, we chase the red ball around.
You seem like a decent guy, you seem like a decent guy.
There is no outside world.
Yeah.
You know,
Sam: Nick Cody was laughing about this.
You've gone and caught up with your mate.
You go home and your nieces is like, I as a house.
So-and-so how old is their kid now?
What?
They've got a kid.
Yeah.
It's like, what do you talk about?
Not that.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah, it's interesting that.
Like I say you're often talking or the conversation will revolve around what
you're doing rather than what you feeling.
You're just feeling it.
And then similarly, what I was sort of getting at before,
where I asked you about the.
The stuff that you've admired, specifically art and thinking.
Jimi Hendrix,
Sam: Bob Dylan, Alan Ginsburg, Jack Kerouac, hunter S Thompson,
Ali: so.
And I was saying this actually in the group chat out the other day
that men, we were talking about compliments specifically, but men.
The only compliments I think they feel comfortable with is.
compliments based on their achievements.
Yes.
Sam: Prowess achievements.
Yeah.
Ali: And so, and it's the things they value in other men that, that sort of.
There's a respect there and yeah, an admiration that it's not about
what that person is feeling.
It's when they've done.
Similarly, like how, yeah.
The things you would feel comfortable being complimented on are the same
things that you admire in men.
Joe: Yeah.
We were talking about it before the Scheider perfect example.
I put up some writing.
Joe Loh sub stack.com.
Yep.
And, uh, check it out.
I've put up a piece of writing that was quite raw and personal.
Very.
All of it.
Well, based on a true story, perhaps, but anyway, yeah.
But as I said, the person who contacted me yesterday and said,
they'd read my, the writing on my sub stack and liked it is the person
who's given me dressing downs before.
Generally rinsing.
My hardest.
One of my harshest critics.
And he wrote to me and told me that.
My writing was good.
Ali: you feel that those compliments are more.
Valuable than coming from.
Like.
Maybe not maybe other men.
Who haven't, you know, given been so hard on you, but just women give
Joe: you an example.
Ali: Women are going to give them minimum.
That's their job to be supportive.
Joe: So Allie.
We're getting into it.
In terms of like brain power.
You're clearly as intelligent as anyone else I know.
Right.
In in-person like anyone to actually know in the real world as intelligent.
And I know other women who are at the same level of intelligence.
Right.
But yeah, I take it with a grain of salt when it comes from a woman.
Because that's why they're going to give you a pat on the
head and say, oh, that's nice.
Yeah.
Keep trying, you know, Whereas a man who.
' cause I know with that friend, if he had a read it and thought it was shit.
He would have just never mentioned that he'd read it.
Ali: And
Joe: I know that, right, because that's the two modes are the give.
Like you just said, you give praise for actions in the world and concrete things.
Like a piece of writing.
I'm not going to get praised for the subtle way.
I deal with, you know, one of my daughters having an illness and
the emotional, but that is simply.
That is an accomplishment.
But it's not a concrete thing in the world.
So I put a concrete thing out in the world.
And the time you feel the kid.
I think,
Sam: yeah.
You know, but anyways,
Joe: I can feel proud of that and someone who's close to me and knows.
Sam: What I'm going through that labor is invisible, Joe.
That's another thing worth pointing out.
Ali: And a lot of the labor and the things that women are doing is invisible.
Sam: And so men tend to prize visible.
Uh, accomplishments.
And that's an observation that many women have made and many men have made too.
And then the observation that goes with that is that.
women prize visible accomplishments too, but are obliged to do an
awful lot of invisible stuff.
And, but I think also.
Women are more likely to point.
That out that they're doing that.
And men are less likely to say to a mate.
Uh, you know, had a rough week, had to take the kids to hospital and get a
checked out and here's what I went through and, you know, But we should be doing that
is, is what I would say, but you're right.
Unless we go and tell someone about it.
Because, you know, someone has gone out and played music or whatever, and.
You know, Don things in a public space that, if you go and do things in
public, you got to expect reviews and.
Yeah, so interesting to follow the weather.
I'd waited.
Uh, compliments from men or women differently.
I think maybe the very little bit, sometimes the male
compliment might revolve around technique or something like that.
I probably means more to me, honestly, if a woman says , that was meaningful.
Like as a I'd rather that than , , that was well-played from a bloke.
Ali: I think maybe perhaps you're at the exception to that.
Maybe.
But
Joe: yeah, I mean, It's hard to connect in this conversation.
I think because.
Amen.
Pretty bog standard strike guy.
Sam's an unusual.
Yeah, I guess like when it comes to gender roles and sexuality and stuff,
It's not as clear and I'm not fully standard, but, and then you, you, Ali.
I mean, I think what.
I think you connect somewhat with the bitterness of that sort of
separate this point of view of.
Look at those men over there.
Yeah.
why don't they treat us?
Like they save all the good stuff for each other.
Why don't they treat that treat us like they treat their friends, which is ironic
coming from you, Ali, because you've always been considered one of the boys.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
I'm talking about like the romance though.
Romance has been reserved for other men.
So the romantic partnerships in my life, I think.
Yeah.
Like a lot of women would relate to that in that.
They haven't been the beneficiaries of those.
Gestures.
Um, that those have been reserved for their.
Frank.
Yeah.
Joe: That's I remember being in a longterm.
Relationship and the sheer relief.
Of going and hanging out with a male friend.
And getting away from that.
You know, domestic situation with the kids and the partner and the tension.
And, but that's disappointment.
It's not
Sam: her fault for being like that's not intrinsic to being a woman.
It's like, just picture any two people in that circumstance.
The same sex.
They're all going to be glad to get away.
And want to get away and have.
Themselves.
I think that's what's lurking this idea earlier of the incomprehension
of this female, other that said the teenage boy experiences.
And I can remember that.
But I realized years later, so many situations.
Just make a lot more sense.
Just take out.
Gender and sex and then analyze just two human beings
interacting and see what's there.
And then add in the other stuff, if that helps to make more sense of it.
Part of the incomprehension results from.
The otherizing.
So when you make the otherizing move, so you become a teenage boy.
And if let's say you're heterosexual.
Uh, which I am for the most part, every sexual, but I, I do have
homosexual inclinations at times, which I have not acted upon.
But when I was a teenage boy, certainly I felt a great
closeness with my male friends.
You're sharing.
Your sexual thoughts with, to a level, with a level of intimacy that
is, you know, I would describe as almost homoerotic, perhaps by proxy.
But those conversations are focused on girls and.
So it's an odd sort of thing going on there.
And then you've otherized girls, you just used to play happily with them
and kind of do a lot of the same stuff.
But now that like sex has entered the picture, oh, now there are other,
Ali: yeah.
Sam: And in a way, heterosexuality sort of depends on maintaining this
idea of difference to a degree.
Like I had male friends get turned off.
When Details were not consistent with their picture in their mind of
what the other gender is supposed to look like and feel like, and
function like and talk like, and all of that, that it can be a turn off if
they're not sufficiently different.
Like the horror of realizing that this is just another homo sapiens.
It's like, ah, like, no, no, no, no.
They need to be alien.
Like that's where I feel safe.
Then yes, what's going to follow the hot on the heels of that.
Easy in comprehension.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: And, Another thing happens, which is, if a heterosexual man perceives.
A woman.
You've changed from the desire is to interact as equals the desire is to
accomplish something, to get something.
You might be acting in a different way to how you normally would.
With your mates or with a female friend that you don't have, you know,
don't wish to pursue in that way.
And then the results are at odds with the ease and success you might be experiencing
just being a normal person, interacting in a normal way with another human being.
You see where I'm going with this?
So when we otherize the, and.
Adopt these different strategy and different vibe.
It's like, no wonder the results might vary and cause puzzlement.
. It's funny because some of those misogynistic pickup artists actually
almost acknowledged this in a roundabout way because you know, one of the hacks.
Is to pretend to be interested in the other person, as a person
and for their accomplishments.
And it's like, well, oh, here's an even better hack.
Actually,
Ali: yes,
Sam: actually.
Be interested in them and just treat them as you would, any other person.
Yeah.
And these.
This is a hot hack that really works on people like just like B.
Yeah.
Man.
And if you can find it like.
Because let's face it.
We've met men, Joe, that we found boring and uncompelling, , You know what I mean?
It's less of a problem.
Yeah, this is like, oh, whatever that person's uncompelling.
Like, I dunno, like these boring, repetitive dates you
described, like, what if.
Yeah, I dunno.
How could you get away from that?
Make it more interesting.
but the homoerotic thing, I do agree with you on that, that I think that
Marilyn, Marilyn Frye is mistaken here when she says, so it's homoerotic.
The word is homosocial.
It's not so that you got homosexuality heterosexuality,
you got homosocial reality,
Joe: I mean, I think I've got, I've come up with a totalizing theory here, right?
Ali: Yeah.
Joe: And it's so simple.
You might miss it.
Yeah.
But I've been reflecting on my friendships with men.
Compared to my friendships with women.
No, my relationships with women.
Yeah.
You know what I actually think it is.
It's just so simple.
With men.
Well that's okay.
Like I've had friends since I was 10 years old.
And.
We talk about the footy.
We go to the footy.
We have replaced some sport.
I like.
The conversation just never gets deep, but the bond is incredibly strong.
And the bond that men will often talk about.
I mentioned it before the context of hue.
But it's, uh, if something happened, yeah, he's going to be.
I donated to bury a body or whatever, get out of a crime.
Yeah.
Who could I call?
Yeah, that's, that's a classic male bond.
And if you watch a lot of them, Movies and stuff.
It's all those kinds of scenarios play out.
Ali: Women have those experiences.
And that's what we haven't.
Yeah, absolutely.
To marry a body like that.
Yeah.
Friends with, since.
Absolutely.
Joe: Absolutely.
But what I fail you bail you out of.
So simple is what I find with my female friends.
And I've always had female friends.
And for me, once a relationship is boundaried.
I'm pretty good.
I'm fine.
And then I get to enjoy a female friendship, but I'm tend to
be having well, there you go.
A lot of very emotional, deep conversations and in, I mean,
in the last 10 years, I actually have that with almost everyone.
Yeah.
Um, So, but, but w we're alert to have those conversations.
Was with, yeah.
Women, including with my mom actually like.
Yeah, agonize.
If I've got decisions to this day, I'll still make sure.
Have a long chat with her about it.
Yeah.
So when I've got something that I is confusing, or I don't quite
understand much, I quite often like to knock that out with a woman.
You know?
Yeah.
That's
Sam: my experience too, mum.
Mom was there to have the conversations about the messy areas and the,
the, the, the feelings and stuff.
And then with dad, it was talk about accomplishments and things doing.
Yeah.
So I think
Joe: that.
I, like I said, it's very intelligent, quiet.
I like liked most of what it had to say.
I look back and think.
Yes, I could have been more thoughtful or romantic towards my sexual partners.
And yes, I was quite thoughtful and romantic towards my male friends at times.
Um, particularly when I think of things like road trips.
Yes, you would know without a
Sam: plan.
A weekend away with Hughes that would just go off.
Joe: Yeah, but once, I mean it's 15 years since we had kids and
that's just never happened again.
Yeah.
So
Ali: that's just life.
That's yeah.
Sure.
I'd love to have a weekend away with my girlfriends and be
able to do something like that.
But yeah, the reality is that people that small children.
So that's just, I think that's more of an age thing rather than
Joe: yeah.
But can you see if you, if you're not an academic.
And you just look at the same situation with all the truth.
That's in that statement.
Imagine if there wasn't some other layer to imagine if it
wasn't secretly Homer or writing.
Oh, well, I think.
And if it was just the simplicity of just paying with, actually
Sam: I take, I take.
Fry's statement slightly differently.
I agree that there's a kind of semantic and I think structural error
there, which is it really isn't.
Erotic a lot of the time, I'll even say maybe most of the time.
Now that's not to deny homoeroticism within heterosexual male culture,
because of course there is, but I take.
What you say as truth to.
So, but I think what she really is getting at is that.
when she says erotic, I think she's talking about.
Romance.
This is what Allie's talking about.
And so I think there's a confusion in her writing between sexual desire
and romantic desire, which are not.
One
Joe: of you to define romance.
Allie, can you define romance in this context?
Ali: Well, I think it's, it's, there's a thoughtfulness.
About.
What you're doing for that person?
And I think like what.
She's actually getting at.
And in the context of how I came to this quote.
Yeah.
When you're looking at sort of like say the in cell movement.
Um, these men.
They don't actually like women.
Sam: Yeah.
And that's a different thing.
Yeah.
Ali: Like women and they don't respect women.
Hmm.
And so
Sam: the incomprehension has turned into hatred.
Yeah.
That's
Ali: why the only love that that have left is for other
men and respect for other men.
I think that's how that, and yeah, she uses like quite blunt language
and that, you know, men want.
To fuck, like, yeah, it's just.
Women are purely seen as this.
This thing that provides them.
Yeah.
Sexual intimacy.
Naturing and yeah.
Everything else to get from.
Yeah, but that's
Joe: not the men.
You've had relationships with.
Ali: But I'm saying, but I'm saying, I mean, taken to extremes.
Taken to extremes.
Yeah.
You know, It's there's the othering of women.
And then there's just the, well, I don't understand.
I don't even like, and so it's, I don't, I don't value what women do.
I don't value their achievements.
I'm not going to put any effort in with them.
As a fundamental lack of respect and friendship,
Sam: where the woman would literally be a waste of time.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
Yeah.
What's the point.
I'm not getting any, the only thing, the only
Sam: thing that I would want is not present in that relationship.
So yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Ali: So I think that's why.
The homoerotic.
I think that's why you're having.
The issue with that particular word or like that.
That language, whereas I think.
Um, what Sam said that like homo social sort of is probably more appropriate.
The homo
Sam: romantic.
Yeah.
Cause we now have language for all this stuff because you'll find people now on
internet, who would say, are asleep with these kinds of people, but I'm
romantic with these kinds of people.
It's interesting.
People are able to just.
Slice and dice it and not necessarily make decisions, but like, this
is what they've experienced.
And that they want to date.
Uh, women and they want to sleep with men.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: Uh, but like, as in, I want to have wonderful romantic relationships
with women where we, uh, we're.
we're close and we do nice things for each other.
Oh.
But I also like to root mint.
Yeah.
And it's like, okay, well that's, that's fair.
Whatever works, I guess.
And.
You know, I think there's a thing that's been lurking beneath this, which is.
Well, cause you know, Maryland's not saying whatever works is she she's saying.
She's there's.
There's an air of I'm calling men out on this.
And that's fair.
I think it's worth doing.
But there's something unstated there, which is.
Whatever her expectation of heterosexual union was clearly, it has not
Ali: yet
Sam: delivered.
And so perhaps there was an over expectation of something, you
know, I made there might've been some romantic ideals in there.
Now, I'm not saying people shouldn't.
Want that.
But again.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Accused
Ali: of like, Like, I'm just thinking of one specific example where like,
you know, talking about romance or wanting romance and like yeah.
Them saying that's not, that's just a fantasy.
That's like.
Yeah.
That's not real.
I'm not going to
Sam: crush your dreams.
And so I don't think it's impossible.
Ali: Yeah.
I think that was an excuse for.
You know, Poor effort.
Also potentially their view of what romance looks like,
not aligning with my view.
Yes, absolutely.
I suppose it's then.
Taking a step back and then observing them being romantic in the way that
I wanted to see you can do this.
Just not doing it yet.
Yeah.
Joe: Is that I get that.
Is your experience of men
as an adult that, yeah, they just want to, they basically just want, as Marilyn said,
this one treat women as someone to fuck.
And that was to take
Sam: comfort with and to, to, you know, to have.
Can you pull the quote up again?
There's like a romantic.
Sort of like this.
That's a bit about the.
Ali: I would say the fucking bit numb.
My experience of all men, certainly not.
No.
And certainly some men have been really romantic with me.
but there are definitely some that I, I get the, I don't
choose to date men like that.
Um, anymore, but there.
Then you
Joe: get a general vibe being out.
In the world that that's, that's the majority of men.
They really just want to spend their time hanging with their.
And then fuck someone who's a woman when they feel like it.
And that would be the ideal scenario.
Then go back to watching the footy.
And is that like the majority case?
Or do you think that men say other value in women maybe for the emotional.
Um, processing and if, if, and maybe even some women, some men,
uh, proud of their women's careers.
And
Ali: I think that is probably more to do with age and maturity and being in.
At this stage now, and, you know, Socializing with men say in their
forties and beyond where they've.
obviously been in longterm partnerships and they're learned, and they've
learned to appreciate those things.
Over time.
I think it was probably quite different when I was younger.
And say like, yeah, in 10.
In adolescents in my twenties.
But I think also that is probably to do with my experience of
going to yeses, separate schools of, you know, gender schools.
they hadn't even had the men hadn't even had the opportunity to even.
To be romantic with women in that way.
The only sort of experiences that I've had were.
Yeah.
They're mates at school and hanging out like on the weekends, like you
said, they weren't, they might not have been in those long-term relationships.
So they don't.
So.
The muscle.
We'll
Sam: wake when it came to, yeah, that's right.
Joe: Could you define romantic simply as making an effort?
Before you get a root.
As opposed to just complete hookup, like come over to my house, but also let's.
Is that what.
Because, I mean, we're all trying to aren't we get over the idea
of romantic love after 200 years of brain pollution or whatever.
Sam: Well, no, a certain kind of unrealistic, romantic love, but
I'm going to hold onto an idea of having sexual intimacy and this.
Like, it's hard to describe.
So we need to go back to the.
Making an effort though.
It's not the only thing.
It's wanting to spend, it's wanting to spend time with them.
Aside from that.
Ali: It's wanting to yeah.
You know, ask them questions.
S hear about their day, perhaps show genuine interest.
Show genuine appreciation for your partner's achievements.
Like yeah.
I wouldn't call that romance.
I would
Joe: call that decency.
Sam: Oh, just friendship or like enjoying, the fact they've got a
new album they're really enjoying enjoy the fact they're enjoying it
and you, and you get to like it.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: You plan a weekend away that.
Contains things that you'll both enjoy and things you'll enjoy separately.
You've shown that you've understood them.
Like the, the gifts make sense.
But also romance, um, the old meaning a adventure, a quest, like.
Quest romance,
, Ali: doing something together.
Real
Sam: suspense,
a sense of mystery of exploration.
There's this kind of spiritual quality to it, or this kind of
esoteric quality to the word, what is the moonlit walk on the beach?
It's not just a prelude to a kiss or a fuck it's it's.
Ima a moonlit walk on the beach.
Let's think about that.
There's something cosmic about it.
There's a connection to the universe.
There's
Ali: if you're sort of looking at like the context of like all the, those romantic.
Well, yeah, quests.
That have been immortalized in literature and film.
Yeah.
Have predominantly been men with other men.
Like if you're thinking like Lord of the rings.
Sure.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Like, you know, hearing the stories of.
Yeah.
Or like, you know, battles and things, and it's a comradery and
those adventures that romance.
The thing that they, that shared experience.
That is a mortalized in the, you know, in that.
In the cultural landscape.
It's between men.
It's not between.
Yeah.
No, you don't have the big adventure of a man and a woman going off.
Outside of like traditionally.
Joe: Yeah.
I mean, they've tried to turn on ahead and it's got a bit cringe trying to,
you know, jam female roles in with.
But, but I would also say.
Let's go, let's go because yeah, go onto.
I don't think women would actually like a male friendship.
In the way that they think they would, because what you'd be getting
is three word, text messages.
A lot of sitting in silence, watching television and grunting.
A lot of like, like you.
I just don't think you think you want it because you think that's where the most
respect and kindness is, but actually.
Traditional straight male to male friendship is.
It's so different.
Ali: You're in when you're just being, as you would say, like a not
communicating, you're holding space.
To be there with your friend and a lot of women.
Yeah.
That's like,
Joe: don't make it weird by talking about feelings.
Ali: It's just holding the space that I think a lot of
men still struggled actually.
I agree.
To there with their female partners.
Yeah.
Like actually holding space
Sam: or struggle to do it with anybody, maybe in a lot of cases, but.
Here, you wanted refreshing on the quote.
In their relations with whom and what passes for respect is kindness,
generosity, or paternalism.
What passes for honor his removal to the pedestal.
From women, they want devotion service and sex.
And I was thinking, you know, Neil young, a man needs a maid, just someone to keep
my house clean, cook my meals and go away.
And devotion
Joe: devotion, service and sex was that yes.
Sam: And really in 2024, though.
I think, I think it's a bit strong, but there are still plenty of blokes
who make a point of saying that's what they want out of a marriage.
And.
Ali: Huge movement of, yeah.
If you look at the rise of, you know, the particularly like, you
know, The masculine and feminine divide within damaging and trends.
A lot of that, like, you know, inhabiting your.
Joe: A friend of mine was working for a builder and he was a bit older.
And he was talking about his problems with his partner and being a bit complicated.
And he said, mate, All I'm looking for as a full stomach and an empty sack.
Oh, Jesus Christ.
So that.
So that kind of.
That would be
Sam: that guy's wife.
Joe: To me.
That
Sam: must be nice.
Joe: That's a throwback up, like I dunno, 70 years or something.
Sam: So that makes you cringe.
Joe: I've never spoken, like.
I've never thought like that, because what I want is to be
tortured in the most complex.
You do want
Sam: romance?
Joe: I'm trying to get.
I wish I just wanted a full stomach and an empty sack, but I couldn't
give a fuck if someone could cook.
All I want to know is can they get inside my mind and torture me?
And if the answer is yes.
Then I'm interested.
Yeah, that's
Sam: right.
There is a level of respect in that.
Joe: It's just twist.
I'm not typical.
If that's typical.
Ali: He said that in his wedding vows and it went viral.
We said exactly that pretty much exactly.
That.
Horrified like that.
Yeah.
And I, yeah.
The comments were just like, leave him now.
Like.
What are you doing?
Like, no, but even just as.
Joe: He's being honest.
Oh, well then shit you hearing waiting about.
Jesus.
Sam: Are there any men piling on in there?
In the comments.
I'd hope so.
I
Ali: think there were a few, but like, like, yeah.
And.
It comes back to like those sorts of, do you even like women, like D do you even.
Thank your partner.
Yeah, that's the thing.
I think a lot of men don't.
Actually like their partner.
Outside of those.
Yeah.
So, I mean, we almost need
Joe: like high quality.
Yeah.
Polling data for, yeah.
Australia or something to know how many men want a complex.
Interesting career woman.
And how many men just want a housewife, right?
Like.
And an honest poll.
I don't know what those numbers would.
I mean.
Also
Sam: people are bad at predicting what will make them happy.
So they think they want a certain something.
Then they get it.
Then they're like, ah, Actually I have been underestimating the fact
that I value intelligence in women, you know, I've seen this happen.
This
Joe: other cultural trend Wolf.
We'll, we'll wrap it up, but the Ali's all over this and I've seen signs of it.
I don't really understand it, but it's yeah.
There's cultural trend.
I've seen it on dating apps too.
And they're always these women, they talk about polarities
Ali: and being in their feminine energy.
That's.
And then they say,
Joe: I want you to be in your masculine energy and take control.
And I want to stay in my femininity.
Mm, and polarity is the part.
I have no idea what they're talking about, but that's.
Ali: I seems to be.
Yeah,
Joe: but powerful move.
Ali: I'd say growing.
You've
Joe: talked about women who want to be a housewife again.
Ali: Yeah.
And I think, I mean, that probably comes down to the stresses and the
pressures that women are on and that.
Yeah.
And yeah, that wanting someone in their masculine energy, basically someone
who will take the lead and organize a date and do something thoughtful
and, you know, We'll just be specific.
Yeah.
Sit back and relax and just be present.
Michael the decision.
Sam: There's nothing wrong with, I think you could be
perfectly on your square to say.
In the profile or in an exchange, man, I would just love someone
else to do the organizing.
I think that's fine.
But to do.
Put all this jargon on, it seems a bit silly.
I say, just communicate clearly, everybody.
Joe: Like if you went to one of those women and said, look, I'm
at 250 grand a year, I just want a full stomach and an empty stack.
But probably be up for it.
Oh, well, you have to go along with.
I'm in my polarity to UN.
I can't be honest.
He just got a bullshit.
Sam: Do you know what Joe would?
I think that sounds to me like do some psychotherapy.
Yeah.
What's going on in there is a bit of, I actually really struggled
to communicate my needs properly.
I really struggle with boundaries.
What I want you to do is figure out what I want and then make that happen
because I'm a child and I can't.
Yeah.
All right.
Experiment.
When I try to imagine mainstream the blunt.
Joe: I try and imagine mainstream Australia, because I'm a bit of a weirdo.
And I'm living.
What is that?
Even.
So, all right here, I'll give you a.
Picture, I'll paint you a picture.
You live in torquey down the great ocean road.
You go surfing at six o'clock every morning, then you drive
into the city in your $50,000.
And you work on a construction site.
Now.
That gosh, it's a niche lifestyle.
Like all the others.
Yeah.
That guy.
I would expect.
His partner to have a career.
And I don't think he would be too worried if that partner's career was quite
fulfilling and meaningful to that partner.
I think the mainstream in Australia.
There there isn't like stay home and wear
Sam: a fucking fly.
I think most, most blokes I know would be like, what do you
mean you're not going to work?
Ali: Well, there's bills to pay.
Yeah, that they are men want.
Like they want the 50, 50.
Like, yeah.
Economic benefits.
Relationship, but they don't necessarily.
One to then do the 50, 50 of the unpaid.
Domestic labor, but they still expect their partner to bring all of that.
Once you said there's probably truth.
You know, fucking and.
And bring in a paycheck.
Sam: Yeah.
Ali: Which is, I think why there's been this pushback of
women going, you know what?
Hang on.
I.
You can pay.
I fact, there's 50 50.
I'm going to sit back and just let you take me out and do that
because I already do enough.
Sam: Yeah, no look, but in fairness to all, I think that's true.
What you said, Ali.
And there's, also a little bit of a converse that goes with it, which
is I do want a modern man who, you know, communicates respectfully
and does not have this sense of entitlement and all the rest of it.
But I also.
Do expect him to carry out some old fashioned mail rolls at the same
time, fixing things Carry certain patriarchal burdens the privileges.
And then there are blokes who say, yeah, I want you to carry the burden
of work, but also the burden of.
Domestic labor.
I think there's a lot of people trying to have a bet each way, everywhere you look.
Joe: I don't think you'd get too far in Australia expecting your
part, your female partner to be completely subservient to you.
I just don't think that.
Maybe it flies in other parts of the world.
I
Ali: think it's it's, it's stronger.
In the us, and that's where a lot of these evangelical themes.
Yeah, the religious context to it, but also the economic problem.
Pretty
Sam: big in Saudi Arabia, too.
Right?
I just feel if I encounter it, this subservient vibe in a woman, I just
immediately feel weird and uncomfortable.
It feels very.
It feels dishonest to me, honestly, I don't trust it.
And I think.
Joe: Ever ended up on a date with one of the polarity being your masculine energy.
We recommend it,
Sam: I think I wouldn't be the only man who's noticed.
That their female partner.
Seemed to care more at times what the female friend thought.
Them, you know, Art, the bloke things like a
Joe: pressing issue or.
No, just like, as you know of what they're wearing.
Yeah.
Ali: absolutely.
Going to ask my girlfriends.
And as Lee said
Joe: that you leave.
We leave for that compliment from other windows.
And then all the girls walk by dressed up for each other.
That's right.
Ali: Absolutely.
Yeah.
There's some things.
Absolutely.
It is
Sam: true about a lot of women.
Ali: Yeah, we absolutely value women's opinions about certain things.
Higher than men's.
Absolutely.
And
Sam: that if you had your choice of a day out with your male partner or a day
out with a woman, you like and admire it's, it's, it's not much of a contest.
And, the number of times in that within heterosexual unions.
That I've actually.
Felt that the other person chose things.
I would enjoy it.
To do that day.
Not a lot of the time I got to say, I don't, didn't always
feel very well understood.
Or accounted for, or like, all the thoughtfulness was thoughtfulness.
That would make sense with someone else, like with another woman,
but it didn't make sense with me.
Conversation with somebody
Ali: recently who had.
Um, I'd organize a date for them.
And yeah, they were like, this is exactly the kind of thing
I would have wanted to do.
And was lamenting the fact that like, But his birthday, the previous year,
when he was in this partnership, they had Oregon, they had organized or chosen to
do something that was absolutely not what.
He wanted to do, and he didn't feel safe in head.
Which I think, yeah, a lot.
I mean, a lot of, yeah.
I mean, while we're back.
That quote, I suppose, speaks to the experience of women and feeling that there
certainly are men who do not feel seen and heard and to feel seen and heard.
I think that's a very human thing to want to be seen and heard.
Sam: And I think that there's an intense homosocial homosocial
reality in many heterosexual women.
And.
I don't and we're not meant to have a problem with it.
And so Maryland's calling something out.
Leaving aside, you know, the long history of patriarchy.
Can we also say this is a thing we can observe in many heterosexual women.
And is that a problem?
So, is it necessarily a problem in the other direction?
Well, it depends on what expectations are coming with it.
If a woman said.
Yeah.
I'm only interested in men for devotion service and sex.
Um, yeah, I think we might object and I like to think we're almost
at a point where we expect.
Uh, behavioral standards among men and women to be the same.
Like am I.
Are we there?
Ali: I don't think we're quite there, but, um, and so can we call
Sam: childishness out wherever we see it?
Can we call selfishness out wherever we see it?
Yeah.
So many men have failed to understand their female partners have failed
to listen and have failed to really account for what they would like
and what their true interests are.
And can we also say that so many women fail to do that and the
group, the great joy for me of the
Joe: male friendship.
Is the complete dependability of it.
So that like Sam, I hadn't seen for 10 years.
And then we pull up.
That's in the car.
We drive to a Chuco.
And it's like, yeah.
There's no need to say, Hey man, how come?
Sorry.
You're uncontactable.
And how come you ignore those five text messages?
That's right.
And why don't you care about me?
And didn't, you know, This is none of that.
It's like getting the car dickhead and that's all.
It's done.
It's not like succeeding.
Underneath.
I can have
Ali: friendships like that with.
I hope so.
A really long time.
And then when you catch up at no time has passed.
It's exactly the same.
A hundred percent beautiful feeling, but.
Yeah.
Joe: So, yeah, let's finish it up.
But.
And maybe that's
Sam: easier for women to experience with other women sometimes.
Yeah.
Joe: The problem with writing a well-worded academic
article on male friendship.
Yeah.
It's I think it's so fucking simple.
You might actually miss it.
Um, and you can't really put the big words and all that.
They don't really.
It's at the level of like caveman grunting.
And passing around a hunk of meat.
Um, if you can think of it, if you can conceive of it like that.
And not make it complex.
You'll have a much better understanding of Malmo to male friendship.
Sam: I don't know,
Ali: man.
I think you're selling yourself short.
I think so.
Men want and need more than that.
I.
All relationships are
Sam: rich and complicated.
Yeah.
Ali: And what you're getting from that is actually a lot more, like I said,
your it's a space that your male friends are holding for you to just be, yeah.
It's actually providing a lot more than just grunting and.
And can I tell you that?
Joe: As this is the nonverbal communication of sitting.
They're in a car.
Sam: But the incredible subtlety.
Of what goes on.
And that did the subtle ways that.
Someone's feeling might be acknowledged and, you know, like without causing
embarrassment or loss of face, And I can tell you, I know the subtlety.
Yeah.
Because complex.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, no.
I see what you're saying.
I think it's a bit of false binary, but also I can say I've seen the subtlety
of it because I've gotten it wrong so many times with other men and maybe
it's ISD, or maybe it's something else, but like, Oh, something's not right.
I have not done this the right way.
So I, so from my outsider alien perspective, it's a complex little
dance if you want my opinion, but.
To you, it's simple because you know, the moves.
Joe: It reminds me of the start of the first episode or the first episode of
Sopranos that it goes into therapy.
Sam: Yeah.
Joe: And he said.
It says whatever happened to Gary Cooper, the strong, silent type.
Like I can think of a friendship I forced in the last five years, just
sitting next to someone at the footy.
And we might say something once an hour.
And I do it for a couple of years and he's like one of my closest
friends and we've never even spoken.
Um, that's cool.
I love that shit.
That clinic, clean ACE food, masculinity, that kind of like roll into town.
Like on a, on horseback, who is this guy?
Sam: Right?
Did you hear about Gary?
Yeah.
I forgot to go to the GP for 20 years.
Joe: See you later.
Ali: Yeah.