WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Sam: hello and welcome
to the 10,000 things.

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My name is Sam.

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I'm Joe

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Joe: Loh

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Ali: and I'm Ali Catramados.

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Joe: Today on the show.

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Bromance.

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Uh, Allie found a quote from one of her.

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Feminist texts that
she's constantly reading.

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And sent it to the group.

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How dare you?

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We thought we'd read it out
and have a chat about it.

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Sam: yeah, look, it is.

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I think it's a pretty interesting quote.

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It's definitely up for
debate, but let's get into it.

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To say that straight men are heterosexual
is only to say that they engage in sex.

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Brackets fucking exclusively
with the other sex.

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I E women closed brackets, all or
most of that which pertains to love.

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Most straight men reserve
exclusively for other men.

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The people whom they
admire respect, adore.

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Revere honor.

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Whom they imitate idolize and
form profound attachments to.

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Whom they are willing to teach and
from whom they are willing to learn and

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whose respect, admiration recognition,
honor reverence and love, they desire.

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Those are overwhelmingly other men.

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In their relations with women,
what passes for respect?

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His kindness, generosity or paternalism.

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What passes for honor.

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His removal to the pedestal.

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From women, they want
devotion, service and sex.

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Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic.

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It is man loving.

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And that's from Maryland fry, the politics
of reality essays in feminist theory.

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Friend of yours.

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Oh,

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Ali: No, I just, seen a few
discussions around yeah.

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That romance.

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It's really from men is
reserved for other men.

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And not women.

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Like in the traditional sense.

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Sam: And we, and we don't
have to reality check these.

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We can just talk about it in a conceptual
way, but you know, is it worth asking.

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Is that what, you know, if you observed
that with male partners in the past, that.

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There was something special about
their interactions with other men

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that you felt was not present?

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Yeah.

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Between you.

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Ali: Uh, thoughtful fullness
and acts of love and.

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You know, Between.

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Yeah.

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They're mates in, in a really lovely way.

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Like it's not to say, like, I think
it's a wonderful thing to have that

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sort of friendship and connection
with somebody, but It's it has been

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my observation that, yeah, that is
often reserved for their friends

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and not necessarily their partners.

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Like you got a partner who's like,
oh, I wish we could go on dates.

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We could do this.

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Those sorts of things that, you
know, most long-term couples, you.

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Yeah, sure.

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Quality time.

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And then, you know, they're
organizing, you know, a trip to

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spend quality time with their mate.

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Like wouldn't bat an eyelid, like, oh,
we're going to go away for the weekend and

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have a fishing trip or whatever it is in.

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Those sorts or.

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Yeah, the thoughtful gifts even I've seen.

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I've observed, like really
thought, really funny, thoughtful.

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Things that bad.

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Yeah, just could not bring themselves
to do that for their partner.

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That was the exam.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Sam: That was the, I was going to.

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At the risk of, you know, baiting you.

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, did you see a  a boy, a young man,
perhaps give his mate a really just

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spot on gift, but just never quite
managed to land a gift with you as

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accurately, or maybe not even close

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Ali: or not.

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Yeah.

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But, but yeah, but like observing that.

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You know, and, and that, that's
not just, in my relationships, but

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something I've witnessed broadly
and that, you know, even, you know,

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if you look at, in the context of.

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, men.

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Revering the art of other men.

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Yeah.

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Sure.

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If you even think of like,  the
military or in those sort of.

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Actions where they yep.

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There's love and respect.

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It is a love and respect there.

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That's just simply that
is reserved for other men.

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Sam: Devotion, tenderness, reverence.

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Joe: I've experienced it in cricket teams.

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So a whole bunch of thoughts.

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You would have, yeah.

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I was mostly with that quote until.

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I said homoerotic and I'm
like, I think you finally gone

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a little bit too far lady.

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Sam: Well, . Um, wanting to get into that
too, but first let's concentrate on the

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part of the thesis you do agree with.

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Joe: Yeah.

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So.

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There's a bitterness to it.

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Yes, it's a thesis.

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I think so.

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I'm not getting what you're
giving to your male friends.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's completely different.

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Relationship.

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Sam: I don't think anyone
becomes a feminist.

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If they haven't experienced.

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And I don't say that to dismiss.

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I don't think anyone becomes a Marxist.

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Who are not experiencing.

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And the woman who wrote that

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Joe: might be a lesbian
separatists feminists.

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I don't know, but

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Sam: yeah.

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Joe: It's a funny thing to read too,
because unlike Ellie, I don't sit

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around reading feminist texts and
it's almost like reading someone who's

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in a zoo, observing some animals.

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They don't really understand or something.

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Oh, well, There's an outsider
perspective that I'm like, oh,

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Sam: It sounds detached
and anthropological.

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I actually, I, I enjoy it.

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I think it's.

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Thundering passage.

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It's really good.

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Joe: Uh, intelligent and
there's a lot of truth in that.

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Absolutely.

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And maybe it goes to understand,

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Ali: do you feel
uncomfortable with that truth?

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I

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Joe: liked it as a quote up
until she said homoerotic, then

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I'm like, eh, you went too far.

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Yeah.

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Kind of fell off the
edge of your rhetorical.

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But you mountain that you were
building, that was quite powerful.

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And then you said, Oh, but they
secretly want to fuck each other.

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It's like, no.

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I

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Sam: think maybe.

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Ali: A lot of them do.

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And a lot of them.

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But even if you're looking at small

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Joe: percentage,

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Ali: But not a lot, but even
like the bodies of other men or

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in the characteristics that you.

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Yeah, look up to and admire and
aspire to be like it's other men.

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So there is that sort of.

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Yeah.

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At a ration for.

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for men in that way.

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Joe: Yeah.

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It's like Michelangelo's David.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's been going on.

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Not a bad

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Sam: example because.

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You know that that is homoerotic.

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Yeah.

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It was thought to be.

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And Michael Angela certainly was, was gay.

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Wasn't he?

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Ali: I'm not sure.

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Joe: No.

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I mean.

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If you want to go back in time, this,
this adoration of the male body and

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of men has always been there and it's
there when I watch a game of football.

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Yes.

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You know, and men was short
sleeves and short shorts and

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they're amazing physiques.

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And.

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But I'm sitting there and I'm not
thinking how much I want to fuck them.

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I'm appreciating the power and the beauty
and the athleticism and all of that.

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Yeah, without going to that extra kind of
corny degree of like, while you secretly

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want to fuck them, it's like, no, I don't.

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But, but the stuff about how have
I been kinder, more thoughtful?

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Uh, more respectful.

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Uh, have I assumed more intelligence?

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Have I gone to more effort with, with men?

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Over the years.

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Yeah, I think at times, I mean, I've had.

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I also had me, you

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Sam: and who have stood by each other.

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Joe: And my best friend
since for 30 years.

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Yeah.

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And it doesn't matter what I do.

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It doesn't matter if I got
publicly shamed and canceled.

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Uh, he would still, it doesn't matter if I
went to jail, he would come and visit me.

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Yeah, that's right now.

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I probably have female
friends like that too.

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I can think of one or two.

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And

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So do you inherently

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Ali: value?

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The achievements of men over women.

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Joe: Yeah, all the, all the
more, my favorite riders.

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Artists.

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Yeah.

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Musicians.

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They're all tend to be men.

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Yeah.

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Uh, like I'm in, I'm obsessed with
like someone like Allana Del Ray

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or something, but it's in a very.

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Again,

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Sam: Bad example, that music is
just drenched in heterosexuality.

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Yeah.

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And I love it.

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Yeah.

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She's got great clips.

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Yeah.

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Joe: Oh, they're great
songs, but like, I see your.

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Sam: you myself, but yeah.

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Joe: Yeah, no, she's
incredibly talented, but when.

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Tension.

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She tends

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Sam: to be incredibly
attractive like that.

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Sure.

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Joe: because.

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When you're in undergrad uni, all
this stuff gets problematized.

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Right.

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And you're like, yeah, problematic
that we're doing it now.

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Well, where it's a bit
of an undergrad show.

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Right.

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But like it's problematic
that your frame report.

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He's on the road and it's
problematic on the road is about.

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Uh, this friendship, maybe
love, maybe sexual love.

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Yeah.

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Two men.

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But that becomes an archetype.

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So my friendship with my best
friend, of course, It's like

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cell paradise and day Moriarty.

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That's that story got
told to me when I was 16.

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Yeah.

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And it's like two guys of
have each other's back.

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Right.

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Yeah, because you got to understand
for a lot of straight men.

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A woman is an incredibly mysterious thing.

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Hmm.

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And we sit around and talking about
how we don't understand women.

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Sure.

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Right.

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So there's a, there's a
bonding that happens there too.

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Shared experience of, of just.

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Incomprehension.

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In comprehension.

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Ali: But what stops you
from just asking a woman?

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Joe: Because women kind of, I can't
explain a lot of their own actions.

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Emotions.

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That's been my experience.

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I mean, you must've loved that.

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Mine as good as it gets
unexplainable things all the time.

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I don't remember the health

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Ali: problems.

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Sam: Yeah.

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You must have loved that line and as
good as it gets, where someone says

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to a Jack Nicholson's character,
cause he's a writer and you know,

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how do you get woman in your books?

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I take man.

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And then I remove all
reason and accountability.

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I remember that.

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So

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Joe: did you resonate
with this quote, Sam?

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I think it's true.

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Yeah.

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Do you feel like you've been.

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Deeper in your male friendships
than you have in your female

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relationships at times.

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Sam: But I think what what's
happened over the years is

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went to coed schooling, right?

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The way through as did you.

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but because growing up
in the higher Christians.

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It was a bit of a special context and.

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I think.

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That early on the, the gender division
was not particularly strong as it often

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isn't, um, just in, you know, normal
childhood settings, boys and girls don't

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automatically drift apart right away.

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And, you know, physically, emotionally,
they're quite similar up to a certain age.

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PVD obviously does have some impacts.

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There's no denying it, so does
the action of, you know, we talked

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about this before an incredibly huge
effort goes into gender and culture.

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A huge effort goes into gender in products
for children and for adults, but with.

00:10:11.045 --> 00:10:13.055
For some reason, they go
really hard on it with kids.

00:10:13.265 --> 00:10:16.775
Ali: It was socialized from such a
young age to these are the expectations

00:10:16.775 --> 00:10:18.425
around what you should ensure to do.

00:10:18.695 --> 00:10:19.415
It's not like.

00:10:19.624 --> 00:10:20.734
Behave and not, yeah.

00:10:20.824 --> 00:10:23.224
Like for every facet of their lives.

00:10:23.314 --> 00:10:24.004
Sam: Absolutely.

00:10:24.004 --> 00:10:24.664
And there.

00:10:25.054 --> 00:10:29.394
Encouraged to  really lean in to those
identities that are at a young age now,

00:10:29.634 --> 00:10:31.854
for some, I think for some reason in
the Harry's, cause it was a bit of an

00:10:31.854 --> 00:10:34.160
insider outsider vibe, and we felt.

00:10:34.610 --> 00:10:35.870
Like weird.

00:10:36.290 --> 00:10:37.430
People surrounded by.

00:10:37.603 --> 00:10:40.363
Other weird people, but you know
where the normal ones, everyone

00:10:40.363 --> 00:10:43.063
else is weird, but where the weird
ones and everyone else is normal.

00:10:43.063 --> 00:10:43.843
If you see what I mean.

00:10:43.925 --> 00:10:46.385
So I think the solidarity
amongst us, cause we're also

00:10:46.415 --> 00:10:47.765
boarding school kids as well.

00:10:48.125 --> 00:10:50.585
And there's only like, you
know, maybe 30, 40 of us, we.

00:10:50.915 --> 00:10:52.265
You can't be too picky.

00:10:52.385 --> 00:10:52.445
Ali: Hmm.

00:10:52.985 --> 00:10:56.255
Sam: You can't just hang with
the guys like you sorta need.

00:10:56.341 --> 00:11:01.072
to mix it up and well, but also I
think in my case, it was a survival

00:11:01.072 --> 00:11:03.532
strategy to have female friends because.

00:11:04.072 --> 00:11:05.662
It wasn't conscious at the time, but.

00:11:05.877 --> 00:11:07.047
Okay, so here we're on gold.

00:11:07.107 --> 00:11:08.697
We'll get gendered for just a second.

00:11:09.117 --> 00:11:12.207
Not N wasn't necessarily
getting the nurturing.

00:11:12.845 --> 00:11:15.575
with the boys now over
time that has changed.

00:11:15.651 --> 00:11:17.301
And I've had nurturing from men.

00:11:17.486 --> 00:11:22.166
At times and actually better at finding
that and AXA, you know, and accessing

00:11:22.166 --> 00:11:24.476
it and, and, um, making room for it.

00:11:24.568 --> 00:11:26.188
And Joe might agree with me too.

00:11:26.281 --> 00:11:28.601
but I can just remember
going and playing with dolls.

00:11:28.734 --> 00:11:30.531
And just finding it chill.

00:11:30.734 --> 00:11:33.014
And  I enjoyed the make-believe.

00:11:33.064 --> 00:11:34.504
It taught, I think I was trying to.

00:11:35.044 --> 00:11:38.104
You know, also being on the
spectrum,  learning roles and like,

00:11:38.204 --> 00:11:40.214
. 
Ali: That imaginative
play is not gendered.

00:11:40.244 --> 00:11:40.484
Like.

00:11:41.564 --> 00:11:42.854
Sam: What about acting it out?

00:11:42.884 --> 00:11:45.194
And so I think that that helped
me to connect and kind of.

00:11:45.295 --> 00:11:48.445
not see them as a strange species
and just as humans, humans.

00:11:48.491 --> 00:11:53.372
the only area where we differed really
was, when it was time to play weddings

00:11:53.372 --> 00:11:56.732
and princesses, that I wanted to have
a turn being the bride or the princess.

00:11:56.822 --> 00:11:58.232
And that's where we differed.

00:11:58.592 --> 00:11:58.682
Yeah.

00:11:59.432 --> 00:12:01.232
I don't know if they were
necessarily gender policing me.

00:12:01.262 --> 00:12:04.362
I think sometimes they were, but we
need someone to be the prince, and it

00:12:04.392 --> 00:12:06.082
should be  it's my turn to be the bride.

00:12:06.082 --> 00:12:07.911
Because if there's three girls,
they all want to be the bride.

00:12:07.911 --> 00:12:10.941
But like over the years, you know,
reading much the same kind of books.

00:12:11.511 --> 00:12:12.621
And that's right.

00:12:12.651 --> 00:12:16.161
And I started reading like
babysitters club and like pony club

00:12:16.191 --> 00:12:19.731
type books and stuff just cause I
had girlfriends that read those.

00:12:19.921 --> 00:12:21.121
Okay, I'll give those a go.

00:12:21.301 --> 00:12:24.541
And here, why don't you give this
fantasy novel ago or whatever.

00:12:24.621 --> 00:12:26.721
And then in certainly in my twenties.

00:12:27.201 --> 00:12:30.081
In some really, really,
really hard times there were.

00:12:30.831 --> 00:12:34.646
Female friends who,  were just
indispensable Because the question

00:12:34.646 --> 00:12:35.996
I wanted to ask Joe a minute ago.

00:12:36.109 --> 00:12:37.999
The times in your life
where you've really felt.

00:12:38.151 --> 00:12:42.141
Understood and seen and, you know,
to use them modern pilots seen,

00:12:42.141 --> 00:12:44.871
but, you know, excepted understood.

00:12:45.012 --> 00:12:45.552
Held.

00:12:45.829 --> 00:12:47.569
It was mostly with men.

00:12:48.139 --> 00:12:49.099
Oh, I would assume.

00:12:49.309 --> 00:12:50.539
Joe: No, it's mostly with women.

00:12:50.705 --> 00:12:53.195
But it was mostly, probably
in a sexual relationship.

00:12:53.225 --> 00:12:53.615
Sam: Yeah.

00:12:53.645 --> 00:12:54.515
But this is what I'm saying.

00:12:54.515 --> 00:12:54.845
Like.

00:12:55.565 --> 00:12:59.165
I mean, you're not giving
this other person orgasms.

00:12:59.735 --> 00:13:02.345
But they look at you and
accept you completely.

00:13:02.701 --> 00:13:05.041
Joe: Oh, I've only had a
couple of those friendships.

00:13:05.191 --> 00:13:05.401
Yeah.

00:13:05.671 --> 00:13:07.261
I mean, I wanted to ask you, you got it.

00:13:07.261 --> 00:13:08.191
You went into childhood.

00:13:08.221 --> 00:13:10.891
I was more interested in
coming up through adolescent.

00:13:11.191 --> 00:13:12.661
Yeah, adolescent and adult hoard.

00:13:12.691 --> 00:13:12.871
Yeah.

00:13:13.471 --> 00:13:14.431
Did you have.

00:13:15.031 --> 00:13:16.741
Have you had strong friendships, which.

00:13:16.801 --> 00:13:21.301
I have been there as you've gone
in and out of sexual relationships.

00:13:21.901 --> 00:13:23.191
Strong male friendships.

00:13:23.316 --> 00:13:23.856
Sam: Yeah.

00:13:24.156 --> 00:13:27.516
No, not especially like, I
mean, I've had certainly deep.

00:13:27.966 --> 00:13:31.272
Friendships with other men, but
over the years, I have had that

00:13:31.272 --> 00:13:35.562
tendency to get too involved in a
relationship and not look after the

00:13:35.562 --> 00:13:37.002
other things as much as I should.

00:13:37.512 --> 00:13:38.442
Yeah, and that's a

00:13:38.442 --> 00:13:39.702
Joe: really common one, too.

00:13:40.332 --> 00:13:40.752
Yeah.

00:13:41.112 --> 00:13:42.282
I mean, I think there's.

00:13:42.972 --> 00:13:47.202
I think it is quite makes me think
that maybe women don't quite understand

00:13:47.742 --> 00:13:49.302
what's going on in male friendships.

00:13:49.302 --> 00:13:50.952
I think the biggest misunderstanding.

00:13:50.982 --> 00:13:51.882
Yeah, that might be true of.

00:13:52.152 --> 00:13:55.752
I've male friend of men
in general from women.

00:13:56.112 --> 00:13:56.862
But I see.

00:13:57.462 --> 00:13:57.732
Is.

00:13:57.845 --> 00:13:59.765
Just how simple most of us are.

00:13:59.975 --> 00:14:00.365
Yeah.

00:14:00.605 --> 00:14:05.135
Like this bafflement that I'll sit there
and watch seven hours of live sport.

00:14:05.165 --> 00:14:06.575
And that's all I'm doing.

00:14:06.575 --> 00:14:09.125
Am I that's enough to occupy, occupy

00:14:09.125 --> 00:14:12.455
Sam: my mind, but there's an analog
to that, which is just like the

00:14:12.455 --> 00:14:16.475
cliche of the lady watching seven
hours of real Housewives or whatever.

00:14:16.595 --> 00:14:17.465
It's just the same.

00:14:18.275 --> 00:14:19.565
Joe: I think that's where women.

00:14:19.715 --> 00:14:20.555
That they missed.

00:14:20.585 --> 00:14:23.795
So, so in this quote, like
it turns into this dramatic.

00:14:24.125 --> 00:14:25.295
Homoerotic.

00:14:26.105 --> 00:14:28.655
Intense thing where it's
like, actually this looks.

00:14:29.345 --> 00:14:34.415
Don most likely you'll sit next to me in
a car and we'll drive up the Hume highway.

00:14:34.655 --> 00:14:36.395
Listen to listen to some music.

00:14:36.545 --> 00:14:39.455
You know that we both
like, it's so simple.

00:14:40.145 --> 00:14:40.805
Dumb.

00:14:40.895 --> 00:14:41.225
Yeah.

00:14:41.855 --> 00:14:43.625
I don't know how else to describe it.

00:14:43.895 --> 00:14:44.675
It's not,

00:14:44.735 --> 00:14:48.245
Ali: there's like a simplicity of just
being yourself in the way that you feel

00:14:48.245 --> 00:14:52.805
comfortable, that you can then be around
other men also enjoying that simplicity.

00:14:52.835 --> 00:14:53.165
Yeah.

00:14:53.495 --> 00:14:55.025
You're not necessarily.

00:14:55.093 --> 00:14:58.873
Communicating your emotions in
a way that you do with women

00:14:58.873 --> 00:15:00.373
or women do to each other.

00:15:00.523 --> 00:15:05.323
So it's it, but it's more just occupying
that space of living those emotions

00:15:05.323 --> 00:15:07.423
rather than necessarily articulating them.

00:15:07.517 --> 00:15:10.277
Joe: Yeah, I'll give you a good example
of something that speaks to this.

00:15:10.547 --> 00:15:10.997
Yeah, I know.

00:15:11.237 --> 00:15:15.887
I think a bit, which is that we're
used to in our twenties go out on a

00:15:15.887 --> 00:15:17.717
Saturday night and have our adventures.

00:15:17.883 --> 00:15:19.803
And try and pick up and try and get laid.

00:15:19.803 --> 00:15:22.293
Or maybe we had a girlfriend
at the time or whatever.

00:15:22.743 --> 00:15:26.283
But then generally, mostly men
would convene at a friend's

00:15:26.283 --> 00:15:27.993
house on a Sunday afternoon.

00:15:28.503 --> 00:15:30.783
I'd have a few beers and yeah.

00:15:31.323 --> 00:15:33.813
Recount the previous night's events.

00:15:33.903 --> 00:15:34.203
Hmm.

00:15:34.713 --> 00:15:35.373
And.

00:15:35.497 --> 00:15:39.037
That was that kind of male
bonding where it's like, you

00:15:39.037 --> 00:15:41.077
know, who got laid, who didn't.

00:15:41.437 --> 00:15:43.387
Whose heart who's not hot.

00:15:43.537 --> 00:15:44.017
I mean,

00:15:44.137 --> 00:15:46.147
Sam: it just sounds like a blokey
version of sex in the city.

00:15:46.147 --> 00:15:46.447
Really.

00:15:47.107 --> 00:15:48.847
Joe: It was like that because that show's

00:15:48.847 --> 00:15:49.447
Sam: not about sex

00:15:49.447 --> 00:15:49.537
Joe: at

00:15:49.537 --> 00:15:49.687
Sam: all.

00:15:51.007 --> 00:15:51.217
And you

00:15:51.247 --> 00:15:52.837
Joe: would have to have the adventures.

00:15:53.617 --> 00:15:56.497
Yeah, Friday and Saturday night
so that you could talk about

00:15:56.497 --> 00:16:00.427
them on the Sunday afternoon, but
yeah, the commerce most connected.

00:16:00.697 --> 00:16:01.927
Um, most grounded.

00:16:02.257 --> 00:16:02.947
Grounding.

00:16:03.037 --> 00:16:07.147
Yeah, nicest part of the weekend was
often the Sunday with just the guys then.

00:16:07.297 --> 00:16:07.507
Yeah.

00:16:07.627 --> 00:16:07.957
For sure.

00:16:08.137 --> 00:16:10.987
And there might be some sport on
or your mind, or watch a TV show.

00:16:11.437 --> 00:16:13.807
But the irony is in my life.

00:16:14.197 --> 00:16:15.037
I have friends.

00:16:15.037 --> 00:16:17.197
I wish I could have dinner with.

00:16:17.323 --> 00:16:18.193
Male friends.

00:16:18.613 --> 00:16:23.143
So in my twenties, it was just nonstop,
male and female company, nonstop parties.

00:16:23.203 --> 00:16:23.443
Yeah.

00:16:23.533 --> 00:16:25.993
Mm, different dating different people.

00:16:26.443 --> 00:16:27.853
The same friendships you don't.

00:16:27.883 --> 00:16:30.883
I only ever added friendships
in my twenties and thirties

00:16:30.883 --> 00:16:32.293
just added new more people.

00:16:32.293 --> 00:16:35.353
And then yeah, that the pool just
got bigger and bigger and bigger.

00:16:35.353 --> 00:16:35.683
Right.

00:16:35.803 --> 00:16:37.693
Um, now my forties, it's like

00:16:37.723 --> 00:16:38.473
Ali: very different.

00:16:38.623 --> 00:16:41.773
Joe: I can have a date with
a woman I've never met.

00:16:42.013 --> 00:16:44.173
And sit down and have a coffee or did on.

00:16:44.173 --> 00:16:45.973
Uh, via the internet.

00:16:46.873 --> 00:16:50.173
And they pretty much have the same
conversation over and over again.

00:16:50.743 --> 00:16:55.003
With a new person, but I can't really
sit down and have dinner with a

00:16:55.003 --> 00:16:56.833
male friend because of all my kids.

00:16:56.863 --> 00:16:58.483
They're all in different
parts of the world.

00:16:58.933 --> 00:17:00.343
Um, and so.

00:17:01.123 --> 00:17:02.443
It's not homoerotic.

00:17:02.893 --> 00:17:06.733
I don't want to fuck him, but
I do miss that from my life.

00:17:06.793 --> 00:17:07.213
Yeah.

00:17:07.363 --> 00:17:10.003
You know, and when I go and play a
game of cricket, it's there and the.

00:17:10.633 --> 00:17:10.813
Yeah.

00:17:11.113 --> 00:17:14.083
This is another thing I don't think
women quite understand about men

00:17:14.173 --> 00:17:15.973
or some way as a generalization.

00:17:16.423 --> 00:17:16.483
Yeah.

00:17:16.813 --> 00:17:22.093
I've played cricket with guys for
20 years and we have no, no idea

00:17:22.093 --> 00:17:23.683
what each other does for a job.

00:17:24.343 --> 00:17:24.613
Ali: We have

00:17:24.613 --> 00:17:26.893
Joe: no idea whether
each other is married.

00:17:27.493 --> 00:17:28.273
Single life.

00:17:28.633 --> 00:17:29.893
It doesn't matter.

00:17:29.893 --> 00:17:32.353
We go out there, we chase
the red ball around.

00:17:32.833 --> 00:17:35.863
You seem like a decent guy,
you seem like a decent guy.

00:17:36.553 --> 00:17:38.143
There is no outside world.

00:17:38.713 --> 00:17:39.013
Yeah.

00:17:39.073 --> 00:17:39.433
You know,

00:17:39.943 --> 00:17:41.203
Sam: Nick Cody was laughing about this.

00:17:41.253 --> 00:17:42.483
You've gone and caught up with your mate.

00:17:42.513 --> 00:17:45.723
You go home and  your nieces
is like, I as a house.

00:17:45.723 --> 00:17:47.630
So-and-so how old is their kid now?

00:17:47.690 --> 00:17:48.050
What?

00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:48.860
They've got a kid.

00:17:48.860 --> 00:17:49.040
Yeah.

00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:50.840
Yeah.

00:17:51.290 --> 00:17:52.490
It's like, what do you talk about?

00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:53.510
Not that.

00:17:53.690 --> 00:17:54.800
Yeah.

00:17:55.730 --> 00:17:57.380
Ali: Yeah, it's interesting that.

00:17:57.830 --> 00:18:01.670
Like I say you're often talking or the
conversation will revolve around what

00:18:01.670 --> 00:18:03.980
you're doing rather than what you feeling.

00:18:04.550 --> 00:18:05.360
You're just feeling it.

00:18:05.690 --> 00:18:09.170
And then similarly, what I
was sort of getting at before,

00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:11.030
where I asked you about the.

00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:14.469
The stuff that you've admired,
specifically art and thinking.

00:18:14.979 --> 00:18:15.699
Jimi Hendrix,

00:18:15.729 --> 00:18:19.719
Sam: Bob Dylan, Alan Ginsburg,
Jack Kerouac, hunter S Thompson,

00:18:20.159 --> 00:18:20.759
Ali: so.

00:18:20.907 --> 00:18:24.297
And I was saying this actually in
the group chat out the other day

00:18:24.297 --> 00:18:28.167
that men, we were talking about
compliments specifically, but men.

00:18:28.737 --> 00:18:31.197
The only compliments I think
they feel comfortable with is.

00:18:31.398 --> 00:18:32.835
compliments based on their achievements.

00:18:32.865 --> 00:18:33.195
Yes.

00:18:33.585 --> 00:18:34.575
Sam: Prowess achievements.

00:18:34.635 --> 00:18:34.965
Yeah.

00:18:34.995 --> 00:18:39.045
Ali: And so, and it's the things they
value in other men that, that sort of.

00:18:39.555 --> 00:18:44.085
There's a respect there and yeah,
an admiration that it's not about

00:18:44.085 --> 00:18:45.705
what that person is feeling.

00:18:45.765 --> 00:18:46.665
It's when they've done.

00:18:47.415 --> 00:18:48.375
Similarly, like how, yeah.

00:18:48.615 --> 00:18:52.035
The things you would feel comfortable
being complimented on are the same

00:18:52.035 --> 00:18:54.195
things that you admire in men.

00:18:54.495 --> 00:18:54.765
Joe: Yeah.

00:18:55.605 --> 00:18:58.065
We were talking about it before
the Scheider perfect example.

00:18:58.095 --> 00:18:59.205
I put up some writing.

00:18:59.565 --> 00:19:01.155
Joe Loh sub stack.com.

00:19:01.305 --> 00:19:01.515
Yep.

00:19:01.605 --> 00:19:02.685
And, uh, check it out.

00:19:04.185 --> 00:19:07.065
I've put up a piece of writing
that was quite raw and personal.

00:19:07.095 --> 00:19:07.275
Very.

00:19:08.175 --> 00:19:08.745
All of it.

00:19:08.925 --> 00:19:11.505
Well, based on a true story,
perhaps, but anyway, yeah.

00:19:11.655 --> 00:19:15.435
But as I said, the person who
contacted me yesterday and said,

00:19:15.435 --> 00:19:19.215
they'd read my, the writing on my
sub stack and liked it is the person

00:19:19.215 --> 00:19:21.495
who's given me dressing downs before.

00:19:22.545 --> 00:19:23.685
Generally rinsing.

00:19:23.865 --> 00:19:24.705
My hardest.

00:19:25.005 --> 00:19:26.265
One of my harshest critics.

00:19:28.125 --> 00:19:29.985
And he wrote to me and told me that.

00:19:30.345 --> 00:19:31.425
My writing was good.

00:19:31.454 --> 00:19:33.465
Ali: you feel that those
compliments are more.

00:19:33.726 --> 00:19:36.156
Valuable than coming from.

00:19:36.156 --> 00:19:36.516
Like.

00:19:36.683 --> 00:19:38.333
Maybe not maybe other men.

00:19:38.873 --> 00:19:41.723
Who haven't, you know, given been
so hard on you, but just women give

00:19:41.723 --> 00:19:42.653
Joe: you an example.

00:19:43.343 --> 00:19:44.423
Ali: Women are going to give them minimum.

00:19:44.453 --> 00:19:45.773
That's their job to be supportive.

00:19:46.403 --> 00:19:47.393
Joe: So Allie.

00:19:47.723 --> 00:19:48.503
We're getting into it.

00:19:49.553 --> 00:19:51.293
In terms of like brain power.

00:19:51.443 --> 00:19:54.023
You're clearly as intelligent
as anyone else I know.

00:19:54.113 --> 00:19:54.593
Right.

00:19:54.773 --> 00:19:58.493
In in-person like anyone to actually
know in the real world as intelligent.

00:19:59.213 --> 00:20:02.453
And I know other women who are at
the same level of intelligence.

00:20:02.483 --> 00:20:02.903
Right.

00:20:02.963 --> 00:20:06.413
But yeah, I take it with a grain
of salt when it comes from a woman.

00:20:06.983 --> 00:20:08.993
Because that's why they're
going to give you a pat on the

00:20:08.993 --> 00:20:10.403
head and say, oh, that's nice.

00:20:10.403 --> 00:20:10.583
Yeah.

00:20:10.613 --> 00:20:14.063
Keep trying, you know, Whereas a man who.

00:20:14.198 --> 00:20:18.848
' cause I know with that friend, if he
had a read it and thought it was shit.

00:20:19.448 --> 00:20:21.518
He would have just never
mentioned that he'd read it.

00:20:22.088 --> 00:20:22.238
Ali: And

00:20:22.238 --> 00:20:25.718
Joe: I know that, right, because
that's the two modes are the give.

00:20:25.988 --> 00:20:30.518
Like you just said, you give praise for
actions in the world and concrete things.

00:20:30.818 --> 00:20:32.048
Like a piece of writing.

00:20:32.768 --> 00:20:35.288
I'm not going to get
praised for the subtle way.

00:20:35.288 --> 00:20:38.678
I deal with, you know, one of my
daughters having an illness and

00:20:38.678 --> 00:20:40.478
the emotional, but that is simply.

00:20:41.138 --> 00:20:42.098
That is an accomplishment.

00:20:42.338 --> 00:20:44.288
But it's not a concrete
thing in the world.

00:20:44.288 --> 00:20:46.118
So I put a concrete
thing out in the world.

00:20:46.568 --> 00:20:48.188
And the time you feel the kid.

00:20:48.668 --> 00:20:49.178
I think,

00:20:49.178 --> 00:20:49.418
Sam: yeah.

00:20:49.448 --> 00:20:50.288
You know, but anyways,

00:20:50.438 --> 00:20:53.768
Joe: I can feel proud of that and
someone who's close to me and knows.

00:20:54.398 --> 00:20:56.888
Sam: What I'm going through
that labor is invisible, Joe.

00:20:56.888 --> 00:20:58.328
That's another thing worth pointing out.

00:20:58.898 --> 00:21:02.618
Ali: And a lot of the labor and the
things that women are doing is invisible.

00:21:02.798 --> 00:21:04.448
Sam: And so men tend to prize visible.

00:21:04.568 --> 00:21:05.528
Uh, accomplishments.

00:21:05.558 --> 00:21:09.878
And that's an observation that many women
have made and many men have made too.

00:21:10.238 --> 00:21:13.328
And then the observation
that goes with that is that.

00:21:13.426 --> 00:21:16.966
women prize visible accomplishments
too, but are obliged to do an

00:21:16.966 --> 00:21:18.496
awful lot of invisible stuff.

00:21:18.586 --> 00:21:20.386
And, but I think also.

00:21:20.896 --> 00:21:22.186
Women are more likely to point.

00:21:22.696 --> 00:21:24.316
That out that they're doing that.

00:21:24.376 --> 00:21:26.356
And men are less likely to say to a mate.

00:21:26.641 --> 00:21:30.331
Uh, you know, had a rough week, had
to take the kids to hospital and get a

00:21:30.451 --> 00:21:35.731
checked out and here's what I went through
and, you know, But we should be doing that

00:21:35.851 --> 00:21:37.801
is, is what I would say, but you're right.

00:21:37.801 --> 00:21:39.541
Unless we go and tell someone about it.

00:21:39.821 --> 00:21:42.011
Because, you know, someone has gone
out and played music or whatever, and.

00:21:42.731 --> 00:21:46.161
You know, Don things in a public space
that,  if you go and do things in

00:21:46.161 --> 00:21:48.711
public, you got to expect reviews and.

00:21:48.897 --> 00:21:50.337
Yeah, so interesting
to follow the weather.

00:21:50.367 --> 00:21:51.147
I'd waited.

00:21:51.293 --> 00:21:53.633
Uh, compliments from men
or women differently.

00:21:53.734 --> 00:21:55.924
I think maybe the very little
bit, sometimes the male

00:21:55.924 --> 00:22:01.294
compliment might revolve around
technique or something like that.

00:22:01.394 --> 00:22:04.974
I probably means more to me, honestly,
if a woman says , that was meaningful.

00:22:05.604 --> 00:22:09.114
Like as a I'd rather that than , , that
was well-played from a bloke.

00:22:09.294 --> 00:22:11.604
Ali: I think maybe perhaps
you're at the exception to that.

00:22:12.474 --> 00:22:12.894
Maybe.

00:22:13.224 --> 00:22:13.434
But

00:22:13.464 --> 00:22:16.530
Joe: yeah, I mean, It's hard to
connect in this conversation.

00:22:16.530 --> 00:22:17.520
I think because.

00:22:18.150 --> 00:22:18.420
Amen.

00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:20.970
Pretty bog standard strike guy.

00:22:21.600 --> 00:22:23.310
Sam's an unusual.

00:22:23.610 --> 00:22:28.170
Yeah, I guess like when it comes to
gender roles and sexuality and stuff,

00:22:28.590 --> 00:22:33.420
It's not as clear and I'm not fully
standard, but, and then you, you, Ali.

00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:35.490
I mean, I think what.

00:22:36.150 --> 00:22:40.710
I think you connect somewhat with
the bitterness of that sort of

00:22:41.010 --> 00:22:42.360
separate this point of view of.

00:22:42.750 --> 00:22:44.130
Look at those men over there.

00:22:44.130 --> 00:22:44.280
Yeah.

00:22:44.415 --> 00:22:45.615
why don't they treat us?

00:22:45.615 --> 00:22:48.075
Like they save all the
good stuff for each other.

00:22:48.255 --> 00:22:52.215
Why don't they treat that treat us like
they treat their friends, which is ironic

00:22:52.215 --> 00:22:55.395
coming from you, Ali, because you've
always been considered one of the boys.

00:22:55.755 --> 00:22:56.115
Yeah.

00:22:56.505 --> 00:22:56.685
Ali: Yeah.

00:22:56.925 --> 00:22:59.925
I'm talking about like the romance though.

00:23:00.555 --> 00:23:03.075
Romance has been reserved for other men.

00:23:03.105 --> 00:23:06.675
So the romantic partnerships
in my life, I think.

00:23:06.945 --> 00:23:07.065
Yeah.

00:23:07.095 --> 00:23:10.485
Like a lot of women would
relate to that in that.

00:23:10.875 --> 00:23:13.395
They haven't been the
beneficiaries of those.

00:23:13.995 --> 00:23:14.805
Gestures.

00:23:14.955 --> 00:23:16.785
Um, that those have
been reserved for their.

00:23:17.265 --> 00:23:17.595
Frank.

00:23:17.685 --> 00:23:17.865
Yeah.

00:23:17.895 --> 00:23:18.105
Yeah.

00:23:18.615 --> 00:23:18.765
Yeah.

00:23:18.795 --> 00:23:20.805
Joe: That's I remember
being in a longterm.

00:23:21.105 --> 00:23:23.685
Relationship and the sheer relief.

00:23:24.285 --> 00:23:26.475
Of going and hanging
out with a male friend.

00:23:26.955 --> 00:23:28.305
And getting away from that.

00:23:28.485 --> 00:23:33.135
You know, domestic situation with the
kids and the partner and the tension.

00:23:33.135 --> 00:23:34.695
And, but that's disappointment.

00:23:34.875 --> 00:23:35.205
It's not

00:23:35.235 --> 00:23:38.385
Sam: her fault for being like that's
not intrinsic to being a woman.

00:23:38.385 --> 00:23:41.025
It's like, just picture any two
people in that circumstance.

00:23:41.715 --> 00:23:42.495
The same sex.

00:23:42.495 --> 00:23:44.085
They're all going to be glad to get away.

00:23:44.775 --> 00:23:45.855
And want to get away and have.

00:23:46.125 --> 00:23:46.545
Themselves.

00:23:46.845 --> 00:23:49.425
I think that's what's lurking  this
idea earlier of  the incomprehension

00:23:49.455 --> 00:23:52.335
of this female, other that said
the teenage boy experiences.

00:23:52.335 --> 00:23:53.715
And I can remember that.

00:23:54.195 --> 00:23:56.975
But  I realized years
later,  so many situations.

00:23:56.975 --> 00:23:58.415
Just make a lot more sense.

00:23:59.135 --> 00:24:00.005
Just take out.

00:24:00.155 --> 00:24:03.275
Gender and sex and then
analyze just two human beings

00:24:03.275 --> 00:24:04.895
interacting and see what's there.

00:24:04.895 --> 00:24:08.165
And then add in the other stuff, if
that helps to make more sense of it.

00:24:08.241 --> 00:24:10.311
Part of the incomprehension results from.

00:24:11.061 --> 00:24:12.141
The otherizing.

00:24:12.351 --> 00:24:15.801
So when you make the otherizing
move, so you become a teenage boy.

00:24:16.101 --> 00:24:17.511
And if let's say you're heterosexual.

00:24:17.751 --> 00:24:21.231
Uh, which I am for the most part,
every sexual, but I, I do have

00:24:21.231 --> 00:24:24.831
homosexual inclinations at times,
which I have not acted upon.

00:24:25.311 --> 00:24:28.431
But when I was a teenage
boy, certainly I felt a great

00:24:28.431 --> 00:24:30.021
closeness with my male friends.

00:24:30.121 --> 00:24:31.201
You're sharing.

00:24:31.511 --> 00:24:34.661
Your sexual thoughts with, to a
level, with a level of intimacy that

00:24:34.661 --> 00:24:38.101
is, you know, I would describe as
almost homoerotic, perhaps by proxy.

00:24:38.621 --> 00:24:41.651
But those conversations
are focused on girls and.

00:24:42.521 --> 00:24:44.681
So it's an odd sort of
thing going on there.

00:24:45.101 --> 00:24:48.911
And then you've otherized girls,  you
just used to play happily with them

00:24:48.911 --> 00:24:50.291
and kind of do a lot of the same stuff.

00:24:50.471 --> 00:24:54.281
But now that like sex has entered
the picture, oh, now there are other,

00:24:54.401 --> 00:24:54.671
Ali: yeah.

00:24:54.721 --> 00:24:58.376
Sam: And in a way, heterosexuality
sort of depends on maintaining this

00:24:58.376 --> 00:24:59.906
idea of difference to a degree.

00:25:00.306 --> 00:25:02.136
Like I had male friends get turned off.

00:25:02.255 --> 00:25:05.809
When Details were not consistent
with their picture in their mind of

00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.679
what the other gender is supposed
to look like and feel like, and

00:25:09.679 --> 00:25:13.129
function like and talk like, and all
of that, that it can be a turn off if

00:25:13.129 --> 00:25:14.869
they're not sufficiently different.

00:25:15.169 --> 00:25:19.549
Like the horror of realizing that
this is just another homo sapiens.

00:25:19.939 --> 00:25:21.979
It's like, ah, like, no, no, no, no.

00:25:22.099 --> 00:25:23.569
They need to be alien.

00:25:23.569 --> 00:25:25.039
Like that's where I feel safe.

00:25:25.339 --> 00:25:27.769
Then yes, what's going to follow
the hot on the heels of that.

00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:29.059
Easy in comprehension.

00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:29.299
Ali: Yeah.

00:25:29.779 --> 00:25:33.259
Sam: And, Another thing happens, which
is, if a heterosexual man perceives.

00:25:33.619 --> 00:25:34.039
A woman.

00:25:34.214 --> 00:25:37.894
You've changed from the desire is to
interact as equals the desire is to

00:25:37.894 --> 00:25:39.814
accomplish something, to get something.

00:25:39.864 --> 00:25:43.404
You might be acting in a different
way to how you normally would.

00:25:43.704 --> 00:25:47.784
With your mates or with a female
friend that you don't have, you know,

00:25:47.844 --> 00:25:49.404
don't wish to pursue in that way.

00:25:49.734 --> 00:25:55.164
And then the results are at odds with the
ease and success you might be experiencing

00:25:55.194 --> 00:25:58.974
just being a normal person, interacting
in a normal way with another human being.

00:25:59.604 --> 00:26:00.984
You see where I'm going with this?

00:26:01.224 --> 00:26:03.354
So when we otherize the, and.

00:26:04.074 --> 00:26:06.744
Adopt these different
strategy and different vibe.

00:26:06.744 --> 00:26:10.944
It's like, no wonder the results
might vary and cause puzzlement.

00:26:11.535 --> 00:26:14.655
. It's funny because some of those
misogynistic pickup artists actually

00:26:14.655 --> 00:26:18.765
almost acknowledged this in a roundabout
way because you know, one of the hacks.

00:26:19.125 --> 00:26:23.865
Is to pretend to be interested
in the other person, as a person

00:26:23.895 --> 00:26:25.245
and for their accomplishments.

00:26:26.415 --> 00:26:28.635
And it's like, well, oh,
here's an even better hack.

00:26:29.085 --> 00:26:29.685
Actually,

00:26:30.315 --> 00:26:30.615
Ali: yes,

00:26:30.765 --> 00:26:31.365
Sam: actually.

00:26:31.395 --> 00:26:35.835
Be interested in them and just treat
them as you would, any other person.

00:26:35.835 --> 00:26:35.955
Yeah.

00:26:35.985 --> 00:26:36.435
And these.

00:26:36.585 --> 00:26:40.365
This is a hot hack that really
works on people like just like B.

00:26:40.665 --> 00:26:41.385
Yeah.

00:26:42.735 --> 00:26:43.125
Man.

00:26:43.125 --> 00:26:44.415
And if you can find it like.

00:26:45.105 --> 00:26:45.915
Because let's face it.

00:26:45.915 --> 00:26:50.258
We've met men, Joe, that we found boring
and uncompelling, , You know what I mean?

00:26:50.258 --> 00:26:51.368
It's less of a problem.

00:26:51.548 --> 00:26:54.188
Yeah, this is like, oh, whatever
that person's uncompelling.

00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.640
Like, I dunno, like these
boring, repetitive dates you

00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:58.020
described, like, what if.

00:26:58.331 --> 00:26:59.021
Yeah, I dunno.

00:26:59.021 --> 00:27:00.041
How could you get away from that?

00:27:00.071 --> 00:27:01.091
Make it more interesting.

00:27:01.118 --> 00:27:04.538
but the homoerotic thing, I do agree
with you on that, that I think that

00:27:04.538 --> 00:27:09.488
Marilyn, Marilyn Frye is mistaken here
when she says, so it's homoerotic.

00:27:09.788 --> 00:27:11.648
The word is homosocial.

00:27:12.698 --> 00:27:15.218
It's not so that you got
homosexuality heterosexuality,

00:27:15.218 --> 00:27:17.018
you got homosocial reality,

00:27:17.048 --> 00:27:20.378
Joe: I mean, I think I've got, I've come
up with a totalizing theory here, right?

00:27:20.588 --> 00:27:20.858
Ali: Yeah.

00:27:21.338 --> 00:27:22.208
Joe: And it's so simple.

00:27:22.208 --> 00:27:22.928
You might miss it.

00:27:23.018 --> 00:27:23.198
Yeah.

00:27:23.948 --> 00:27:27.278
But I've been reflecting
on my friendships with men.

00:27:27.758 --> 00:27:29.228
Compared to my friendships with women.

00:27:29.258 --> 00:27:30.608
No, my relationships with women.

00:27:30.638 --> 00:27:30.938
Yeah.

00:27:31.298 --> 00:27:33.128
You know what I actually think it is.

00:27:34.028 --> 00:27:36.428
It's just so simple.

00:27:36.668 --> 00:27:37.718
With men.

00:27:37.988 --> 00:27:39.008
Well that's okay.

00:27:39.308 --> 00:27:42.908
Like I've had friends
since I was 10 years old.

00:27:43.688 --> 00:27:44.018
And.

00:27:44.618 --> 00:27:46.058
We talk about the footy.

00:27:46.088 --> 00:27:47.228
We go to the footy.

00:27:47.558 --> 00:27:49.748
We have replaced some sport.

00:27:51.158 --> 00:27:52.208
I like.

00:27:53.288 --> 00:27:58.718
The conversation just never gets deep,
but the bond is incredibly strong.

00:27:59.288 --> 00:28:01.838
And the bond that men
will often talk about.

00:28:01.928 --> 00:28:04.268
I mentioned it before the context of hue.

00:28:05.468 --> 00:28:08.858
But it's, uh, if something
happened, yeah, he's going to be.

00:28:08.918 --> 00:28:12.788
I donated to bury a body or
whatever, get out of a crime.

00:28:12.848 --> 00:28:13.148
Yeah.

00:28:13.178 --> 00:28:14.078
Who could I call?

00:28:14.108 --> 00:28:16.778
Yeah, that's, that's a classic male bond.

00:28:16.868 --> 00:28:18.968
And if you watch a lot of
them, Movies and stuff.

00:28:18.998 --> 00:28:21.068
It's all those kinds
of scenarios play out.

00:28:21.668 --> 00:28:22.778
Ali: Women have those experiences.

00:28:23.018 --> 00:28:24.038
And that's what we haven't.

00:28:24.698 --> 00:28:25.418
Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:26.978 --> 00:28:28.298
To marry a body like that.

00:28:28.418 --> 00:28:28.658
Yeah.

00:28:28.748 --> 00:28:28.988
Yeah.

00:28:29.048 --> 00:28:30.158
Friends with, since.

00:28:30.518 --> 00:28:31.208
Absolutely.

00:28:31.718 --> 00:28:32.408
Joe: Absolutely.

00:28:32.798 --> 00:28:34.388
But what I fail you bail you out of.

00:28:34.838 --> 00:28:37.538
So simple is what I find
with my female friends.

00:28:37.538 --> 00:28:39.218
And I've always had female friends.

00:28:39.218 --> 00:28:42.518
And for me, once a
relationship is boundaried.

00:28:43.148 --> 00:28:43.928
I'm pretty good.

00:28:43.928 --> 00:28:44.708
I'm fine.

00:28:44.708 --> 00:28:47.708
And then I get to enjoy a female
friendship, but I'm tend to

00:28:47.708 --> 00:28:48.908
be having well, there you go.

00:28:49.028 --> 00:28:53.618
A lot of very emotional, deep
conversations and in, I mean,

00:28:53.618 --> 00:28:58.028
in the last 10 years, I actually
have that with almost everyone.

00:28:58.058 --> 00:28:58.478
Yeah.

00:28:58.778 --> 00:29:03.008
Um, So, but, but w we're alert
to have those conversations.

00:29:03.428 --> 00:29:04.628
Was with, yeah.

00:29:04.718 --> 00:29:07.658
Women, including with
my mom actually like.

00:29:08.348 --> 00:29:09.428
Yeah, agonize.

00:29:09.428 --> 00:29:12.158
If I've got decisions to this
day, I'll still make sure.

00:29:12.878 --> 00:29:14.618
Have a long chat with her about it.

00:29:14.648 --> 00:29:15.038
Yeah.

00:29:15.154 --> 00:29:18.754
So when I've got something that
I is confusing, or I don't quite

00:29:18.754 --> 00:29:22.324
understand much, I quite often like
to knock that out with a woman.

00:29:22.504 --> 00:29:22.894
You know?

00:29:22.984 --> 00:29:23.314
Yeah.

00:29:24.124 --> 00:29:24.394
That's

00:29:24.604 --> 00:29:25.624
Sam: my experience too, mum.

00:29:25.684 --> 00:29:28.804
Mom was there to have the conversations
about the messy areas and the,

00:29:28.804 --> 00:29:30.874
the, the, the feelings and stuff.

00:29:30.904 --> 00:29:34.894
And then with dad, it was talk about
accomplishments and things doing.

00:29:35.314 --> 00:29:35.494
Yeah.

00:29:35.584 --> 00:29:36.184
So I think

00:29:36.214 --> 00:29:36.454
Joe: that.

00:29:37.114 --> 00:29:39.604
I, like I said, it's
very intelligent, quiet.

00:29:39.754 --> 00:29:42.004
I like liked most of what it had to say.

00:29:42.004 --> 00:29:42.994
I look back and think.

00:29:43.414 --> 00:29:48.124
Yes, I could have been more thoughtful
or romantic towards my sexual partners.

00:29:48.124 --> 00:29:53.824
And yes, I was quite thoughtful and
romantic towards my male friends at times.

00:29:53.824 --> 00:29:57.184
Um, particularly when I think
of things like road trips.

00:29:57.424 --> 00:29:59.104
Yes, you would know without a

00:29:59.104 --> 00:29:59.734
Sam: plan.

00:30:00.244 --> 00:30:03.184
A weekend away with Hughes
that would just go off.

00:30:03.634 --> 00:30:06.634
Joe: Yeah, but once, I mean it's
15 years since we had kids and

00:30:06.634 --> 00:30:07.984
that's just never happened again.

00:30:08.014 --> 00:30:08.374
Yeah.

00:30:08.374 --> 00:30:08.644
Yeah.

00:30:08.854 --> 00:30:09.154
So

00:30:09.244 --> 00:30:10.324
Ali: that's just life.

00:30:10.714 --> 00:30:11.344
That's yeah.

00:30:11.644 --> 00:30:11.854
Sure.

00:30:11.974 --> 00:30:14.224
I'd love to have a weekend
away with my girlfriends and be

00:30:14.224 --> 00:30:15.754
able to do something like that.

00:30:15.754 --> 00:30:17.764
But yeah, the reality is that
people that small children.

00:30:17.854 --> 00:30:21.694
So that's just, I think that's
more of an age thing rather than

00:30:22.084 --> 00:30:22.384
Joe: yeah.

00:30:22.414 --> 00:30:25.114
But can you see if you,
if you're not an academic.

00:30:25.564 --> 00:30:29.374
And you just look at the same
situation with all the truth.

00:30:29.374 --> 00:30:30.334
That's in that statement.

00:30:30.424 --> 00:30:33.244
Imagine if there wasn't some
other layer to imagine if it

00:30:33.244 --> 00:30:34.894
wasn't secretly Homer or writing.

00:30:35.014 --> 00:30:35.644
Oh, well, I think.

00:30:36.004 --> 00:30:39.034
And if it was just the simplicity
of just paying with, actually

00:30:39.094 --> 00:30:40.474
Sam: I take, I take.

00:30:41.014 --> 00:30:43.444
Fry's statement slightly differently.

00:30:43.444 --> 00:30:47.854
I agree that there's a kind of
semantic and I think structural error

00:30:47.854 --> 00:30:49.834
there, which is it really isn't.

00:30:50.014 --> 00:30:53.554
Erotic a lot of the time, I'll
even say maybe most of the time.

00:30:54.154 --> 00:30:58.324
Now that's not to deny  homoeroticism
within heterosexual male culture,

00:30:58.324 --> 00:31:00.124
because of course there is, but I take.

00:31:00.424 --> 00:31:02.194
What you say as truth to.

00:31:02.794 --> 00:31:06.514
So, but I think what she
really is getting at is that.

00:31:06.670 --> 00:31:09.310
when she says erotic, I
think she's talking about.

00:31:09.545 --> 00:31:10.205
Romance.

00:31:10.205 --> 00:31:11.585
This is what Allie's talking about.

00:31:11.795 --> 00:31:15.515
And so I think there's a confusion
in her writing between sexual desire

00:31:15.515 --> 00:31:16.835
and romantic desire, which are not.

00:31:18.155 --> 00:31:18.275
One

00:31:18.635 --> 00:31:20.075
Joe: of you to define romance.

00:31:20.465 --> 00:31:22.595
Allie, can you define
romance in this context?

00:31:23.105 --> 00:31:25.745
Ali: Well, I think it's, it's,
there's a thoughtfulness.

00:31:26.435 --> 00:31:26.855
About.

00:31:27.025 --> 00:31:29.035
What you're doing for that person?

00:31:29.665 --> 00:31:32.365
And I think like what.

00:31:32.785 --> 00:31:34.165
She's actually getting at.

00:31:34.585 --> 00:31:37.225
And in the context of
how I came to this quote.

00:31:37.285 --> 00:31:37.615
Yeah.

00:31:38.275 --> 00:31:41.605
When you're looking at sort of
like say the in cell movement.

00:31:41.935 --> 00:31:43.435
Um, these men.

00:31:44.095 --> 00:31:46.285
They don't actually like women.

00:31:46.945 --> 00:31:47.125
Sam: Yeah.

00:31:47.335 --> 00:31:48.325
And that's a different thing.

00:31:48.355 --> 00:31:48.385
Yeah.

00:31:49.045 --> 00:31:50.815
Ali: Like women and they
don't respect women.

00:31:50.845 --> 00:31:51.025
Hmm.

00:31:51.235 --> 00:31:51.835
And so

00:31:52.015 --> 00:31:55.285
Sam: the incomprehension
has turned into hatred.

00:31:55.375 --> 00:31:55.525
Yeah.

00:31:56.635 --> 00:31:56.875
That's

00:31:56.905 --> 00:32:00.085
Ali: why the only love that
that have left is for other

00:32:00.085 --> 00:32:02.005
men and respect for other men.

00:32:02.035 --> 00:32:05.489
I think that's how that, and yeah,
she uses like quite blunt language

00:32:05.489 --> 00:32:06.509
and that, you know, men want.

00:32:06.869 --> 00:32:08.369
To fuck, like, yeah, it's just.

00:32:08.789 --> 00:32:10.319
Women are purely seen as this.

00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:12.509
This thing that provides them.

00:32:12.569 --> 00:32:12.869
Yeah.

00:32:13.409 --> 00:32:14.489
Sexual intimacy.

00:32:14.819 --> 00:32:15.659
Naturing and yeah.

00:32:15.899 --> 00:32:16.979
Everything else to get from.

00:32:17.009 --> 00:32:17.789
Yeah, but that's

00:32:17.819 --> 00:32:18.479
Joe: not the men.

00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:19.829
You've had relationships with.

00:32:20.429 --> 00:32:23.009
Ali: But I'm saying, but I'm
saying, I mean, taken to extremes.

00:32:23.069 --> 00:32:23.939
Taken to extremes.

00:32:24.629 --> 00:32:24.929
Yeah.

00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:27.869
You know, It's there's
the othering of women.

00:32:28.199 --> 00:32:30.389
And then there's just the,
well, I don't understand.

00:32:30.389 --> 00:32:34.319
I don't even like, and so it's, I
don't, I don't value what women do.

00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:35.549
I don't value their achievements.

00:32:35.849 --> 00:32:37.829
I'm not going to put
any effort in with them.

00:32:38.549 --> 00:32:41.489
As a fundamental lack of
respect and friendship,

00:32:41.489 --> 00:32:43.559
Sam: where the woman would
literally be a waste of time.

00:32:43.589 --> 00:32:43.799
Yeah.

00:32:44.219 --> 00:32:44.429
Ali: Yeah.

00:32:44.489 --> 00:32:44.759
Yeah.

00:32:44.999 --> 00:32:45.569
What's the point.

00:32:45.569 --> 00:32:47.219
I'm not getting any,
the only thing, the only

00:32:47.249 --> 00:32:49.889
Sam: thing that I would want is
not present in that relationship.

00:32:49.889 --> 00:32:50.729
So yeah.

00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:51.449
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:52.649
Ali: So I think that's why.

00:32:53.142 --> 00:32:54.372
The homoerotic.

00:32:54.372 --> 00:32:55.272
I think that's why you're having.

00:32:55.692 --> 00:32:58.122
The issue with that
particular word or like that.

00:32:58.332 --> 00:32:59.412
That language, whereas I think.

00:32:59.682 --> 00:33:04.572
Um, what Sam said that like homo social
sort of is probably more appropriate.

00:33:04.602 --> 00:33:04.962
The homo

00:33:04.992 --> 00:33:05.862
Sam: romantic.

00:33:05.892 --> 00:33:06.342
Yeah.

00:33:06.432 --> 00:33:09.252
Cause we now have language for all this
stuff because you'll find people now on

00:33:09.282 --> 00:33:12.002
internet, who would say,   are asleep
with these kinds of people, but I'm

00:33:12.002 --> 00:33:13.802
romantic with these kinds of people.

00:33:13.832 --> 00:33:14.342
It's interesting.

00:33:14.342 --> 00:33:15.392
People are able to just.

00:33:15.812 --> 00:33:18.842
Slice and dice it and not necessarily
make decisions, but like, this

00:33:18.842 --> 00:33:20.042
is what they've experienced.

00:33:20.432 --> 00:33:21.992
And that they want to date.

00:33:22.532 --> 00:33:25.532
Uh, women and they want to sleep with men.

00:33:25.802 --> 00:33:25.982
Ali: Yeah.

00:33:26.342 --> 00:33:29.402
Sam: Uh, but like, as in, I want to
have wonderful romantic relationships

00:33:29.402 --> 00:33:30.602
with women where we, uh, we're.

00:33:30.656 --> 00:33:32.916
we're close and we do nice
things for each other.

00:33:33.006 --> 00:33:33.216
Oh.

00:33:33.216 --> 00:33:34.386
But I also like to root mint.

00:33:34.566 --> 00:33:34.746
Yeah.

00:33:34.836 --> 00:33:36.666
And it's like, okay,
well that's, that's fair.

00:33:37.036 --> 00:33:38.176
Whatever works, I guess.

00:33:38.236 --> 00:33:38.626
And.

00:33:38.688 --> 00:33:41.598
You know, I think there's a thing that's
been lurking beneath this, which is.

00:33:42.078 --> 00:33:45.378
Well, cause you know, Maryland's not
saying whatever works is she she's saying.

00:33:45.581 --> 00:33:46.211
She's there's.

00:33:46.451 --> 00:33:48.671
There's an air of I'm
calling men out on this.

00:33:49.181 --> 00:33:49.841
And that's fair.

00:33:49.871 --> 00:33:50.681
I think it's worth doing.

00:33:50.765 --> 00:33:53.165
But there's something
unstated there, which is.

00:33:53.282 --> 00:33:58.622
Whatever her expectation of heterosexual
union was clearly, it has not

00:33:59.012 --> 00:33:59.162
Ali: yet

00:33:59.312 --> 00:33:59.822
Sam: delivered.

00:34:00.572 --> 00:34:04.442
And so perhaps there was an over
expectation of something, you

00:34:04.442 --> 00:34:07.022
know, I made there might've been
some romantic ideals in there.

00:34:07.322 --> 00:34:09.092
Now, I'm not saying people shouldn't.

00:34:09.992 --> 00:34:10.592
Want that.

00:34:11.012 --> 00:34:11.582
But again.

00:34:11.582 --> 00:34:11.822
Yeah.

00:34:13.082 --> 00:34:13.412
Interesting.

00:34:13.772 --> 00:34:14.192
Accused

00:34:14.222 --> 00:34:17.732
Ali: of like, Like, I'm just thinking
of one specific example where like,

00:34:17.732 --> 00:34:21.002
you know, talking about romance
or wanting romance and like yeah.

00:34:21.122 --> 00:34:24.212
Them saying that's not,
that's just a fantasy.

00:34:24.212 --> 00:34:24.662
That's like.

00:34:25.322 --> 00:34:25.592
Yeah.

00:34:25.862 --> 00:34:27.212
That's not real.

00:34:27.452 --> 00:34:27.992
I'm not going to

00:34:27.992 --> 00:34:28.712
Sam: crush your dreams.

00:34:28.712 --> 00:34:30.182
And so I don't think it's impossible.

00:34:30.542 --> 00:34:30.752
Ali: Yeah.

00:34:31.112 --> 00:34:33.602
I think that was an excuse for.

00:34:34.052 --> 00:34:35.192
You know, Poor effort.

00:34:36.752 --> 00:34:39.992
Also potentially their view
of what romance looks like,

00:34:40.022 --> 00:34:41.462
not aligning with my view.

00:34:41.462 --> 00:34:42.422
Yes, absolutely.

00:34:43.147 --> 00:34:44.047
I suppose it's then.

00:34:44.587 --> 00:34:48.007
Taking a step back and then observing
them being romantic in the way that

00:34:48.007 --> 00:34:50.437
I wanted to see you can do this.

00:34:50.617 --> 00:34:51.757
Just not doing it yet.

00:34:52.377 --> 00:34:52.647
Yeah.

00:34:52.887 --> 00:34:53.697
Joe: Is that I get that.

00:34:53.787 --> 00:34:55.407
Is your experience of men

00:34:55.557 --> 00:35:00.147
as an adult that, yeah, they just want to,
they basically just want, as Marilyn said,

00:35:00.147 --> 00:35:02.277
this one treat women as someone to fuck.

00:35:02.997 --> 00:35:03.717
And that was to take

00:35:03.747 --> 00:35:06.057
Sam: comfort with and to,
to, you know, to have.

00:35:06.987 --> 00:35:08.187
Can you pull the quote up again?

00:35:08.457 --> 00:35:09.537
There's like a romantic.

00:35:10.137 --> 00:35:10.737
Sort of like this.

00:35:11.487 --> 00:35:12.327
That's a bit about the.

00:35:12.717 --> 00:35:15.087
Ali: I would say the fucking bit numb.

00:35:15.657 --> 00:35:17.457
My experience of all men, certainly not.

00:35:17.457 --> 00:35:17.577
No.

00:35:17.577 --> 00:35:20.067
And certainly some men have
been really romantic with me.

00:35:20.126 --> 00:35:23.396
but there are definitely some
that I, I get the, I don't

00:35:23.396 --> 00:35:24.656
choose to date men like that.

00:35:25.076 --> 00:35:26.246
Um, anymore, but there.

00:35:26.276 --> 00:35:26.426
Then you

00:35:26.426 --> 00:35:28.346
Joe: get a general vibe being out.

00:35:28.766 --> 00:35:32.516
In the world that that's,
that's the majority of men.

00:35:32.876 --> 00:35:34.946
They really just want to spend
their time hanging with their.

00:35:35.546 --> 00:35:39.506
And then fuck someone who's a
woman when they feel like it.

00:35:39.506 --> 00:35:40.976
And that would be the ideal scenario.

00:35:40.976 --> 00:35:42.356
Then go back to watching the footy.

00:35:42.656 --> 00:35:45.176
And is that like the majority case?

00:35:45.206 --> 00:35:51.266
Or do you think that men say other
value in women maybe for the emotional.

00:35:51.746 --> 00:35:56.336
Um, processing and if, if, and
maybe even some women, some men,

00:35:56.366 --> 00:35:58.346
uh, proud of their women's careers.

00:35:58.346 --> 00:35:58.766
And

00:35:58.916 --> 00:36:03.416
Ali: I think that is probably more to
do with age and maturity and being in.

00:36:03.626 --> 00:36:08.606
At this stage now, and, you know,
Socializing with men say in their

00:36:08.636 --> 00:36:11.036
forties and beyond where they've.

00:36:11.208 --> 00:36:14.118
obviously been in longterm partnerships
and they're learned, and they've

00:36:14.118 --> 00:36:16.038
learned to appreciate those things.

00:36:16.248 --> 00:36:17.088
Over time.

00:36:17.298 --> 00:36:19.848
I think it was probably quite
different when I was younger.

00:36:20.508 --> 00:36:21.768
And say like, yeah, in 10.

00:36:22.098 --> 00:36:23.688
In adolescents in my twenties.

00:36:23.898 --> 00:36:26.958
But I think also that is probably
to do with my experience of

00:36:26.958 --> 00:36:29.958
going to yeses, separate schools
of, you know, gender schools.

00:36:30.160 --> 00:36:33.430
they hadn't even had the men hadn't
even had the opportunity to even.

00:36:33.577 --> 00:36:36.007
To be romantic with women in that way.

00:36:36.097 --> 00:36:38.617
The only sort of experiences
that I've had were.

00:36:39.007 --> 00:36:39.247
Yeah.

00:36:39.367 --> 00:36:43.027
They're mates at school and hanging
out like on the weekends, like you

00:36:43.027 --> 00:36:46.147
said, they weren't, they might not have
been in those long-term relationships.

00:36:46.237 --> 00:36:46.687
So they don't.

00:36:47.077 --> 00:36:47.587
So.

00:36:47.887 --> 00:36:48.457
The muscle.

00:36:48.667 --> 00:36:48.787
We'll

00:36:48.787 --> 00:36:50.827
Sam: wake when it came
to, yeah, that's right.

00:36:51.307 --> 00:36:55.387
Joe: Could you define romantic
simply as making an effort?

00:36:55.837 --> 00:36:57.547
Before you get a root.

00:36:58.237 --> 00:37:03.307
As opposed to just complete hookup, like
come over to my house, but also let's.

00:37:03.667 --> 00:37:04.207
Is that what.

00:37:04.267 --> 00:37:06.937
Because, I mean, we're all trying
to aren't we get over the idea

00:37:06.937 --> 00:37:10.327
of romantic love after 200 years
of brain pollution or whatever.

00:37:10.507 --> 00:37:13.267
Sam: Well, no, a certain kind of
unrealistic, romantic love, but

00:37:13.327 --> 00:37:18.397
I'm going to hold onto an idea of
having sexual intimacy and this.

00:37:19.357 --> 00:37:20.257
Like, it's hard to describe.

00:37:20.287 --> 00:37:21.217
So we need to go back to the.

00:37:21.667 --> 00:37:22.687
Making an effort though.

00:37:23.767 --> 00:37:24.577
It's not the only thing.

00:37:25.057 --> 00:37:28.117
It's wanting to spend, it's
wanting to spend time with them.

00:37:28.207 --> 00:37:29.737
Aside from that.

00:37:30.337 --> 00:37:31.237
Ali: It's wanting to yeah.

00:37:31.327 --> 00:37:33.247
You know, ask them questions.

00:37:33.427 --> 00:37:36.787
S hear about their day,
perhaps show genuine interest.

00:37:37.537 --> 00:37:40.867
Show genuine appreciation for
your partner's achievements.

00:37:40.897 --> 00:37:41.677
Like yeah.

00:37:42.667 --> 00:37:44.377
I wouldn't call that romance.

00:37:44.467 --> 00:37:44.707
I would

00:37:44.737 --> 00:37:45.877
Joe: call that decency.

00:37:45.967 --> 00:37:48.397
Sam: Oh, just friendship or like
enjoying, the fact they've got a

00:37:48.397 --> 00:37:51.097
new album they're really enjoying
enjoy the fact they're enjoying it

00:37:51.127 --> 00:37:52.717
and you, and you get to like it.

00:37:52.867 --> 00:37:53.077
Ali: Yeah.

00:37:53.857 --> 00:37:55.507
Sam: You plan a weekend away that.

00:37:55.759 --> 00:37:59.449
Contains things that you'll both enjoy
and things you'll enjoy separately.

00:37:59.449 --> 00:38:00.769
You've shown that you've understood them.

00:38:00.769 --> 00:38:02.209
Like the, the gifts make sense.

00:38:02.283 --> 00:38:07.806
But also romance, um, the old
meaning a adventure,  a quest, like.

00:38:08.106 --> 00:38:09.066
Quest romance,

00:38:09.116 --> 00:38:10.286
, 
Ali: doing something together.

00:38:10.436 --> 00:38:10.826
Real

00:38:10.826 --> 00:38:11.636
Sam: suspense,

00:38:11.636 --> 00:38:13.646
a sense of mystery of exploration.

00:38:13.706 --> 00:38:16.646
There's this kind of spiritual
quality to it, or this kind of

00:38:16.646 --> 00:38:20.476
esoteric quality to the word,  what
is the moonlit walk on the beach?

00:38:20.686 --> 00:38:24.466
It's not just a prelude to
a kiss or a fuck it's it's.

00:38:24.707 --> 00:38:27.077
Ima a moonlit walk on the beach.

00:38:27.107 --> 00:38:27.947
Let's think about that.

00:38:27.947 --> 00:38:29.357
There's something cosmic about it.

00:38:29.957 --> 00:38:31.307
There's a connection to the universe.

00:38:31.307 --> 00:38:31.727
There's

00:38:31.787 --> 00:38:36.317
Ali: if you're sort of looking at like the
context of like all the, those romantic.

00:38:36.887 --> 00:38:38.117
Well, yeah, quests.

00:38:38.567 --> 00:38:42.437
That have been immortalized
in literature and film.

00:38:42.467 --> 00:38:42.677
Yeah.

00:38:42.737 --> 00:38:45.947
Have predominantly been
men with other men.

00:38:46.187 --> 00:38:48.347
Like if you're thinking
like Lord of the rings.

00:38:48.347 --> 00:38:48.827
Sure.

00:38:49.157 --> 00:38:49.337
Yeah.

00:38:49.427 --> 00:38:50.537
Oh yeah.

00:38:51.767 --> 00:38:52.037
Yeah.

00:38:52.277 --> 00:38:54.077
Like, you know, hearing the stories of.

00:38:54.377 --> 00:38:54.527
Yeah.

00:38:54.557 --> 00:38:58.457
Or like, you know, battles and
things, and it's a comradery and

00:38:58.547 --> 00:39:00.347
those adventures that romance.

00:39:00.437 --> 00:39:03.287
The thing that they,
that shared experience.

00:39:03.737 --> 00:39:05.897
That is a mortalized in
the, you know, in that.

00:39:06.407 --> 00:39:07.577
In the cultural landscape.

00:39:07.607 --> 00:39:08.417
It's between men.

00:39:08.417 --> 00:39:09.347
It's not between.

00:39:09.707 --> 00:39:09.887
Yeah.

00:39:09.977 --> 00:39:13.787
No, you don't have the big adventure
of a man and a woman going off.

00:39:14.477 --> 00:39:15.947
Outside of like traditionally.

00:39:16.427 --> 00:39:16.697
Joe: Yeah.

00:39:16.757 --> 00:39:20.057
I mean, they've tried to turn on ahead
and it's got a bit cringe trying to,

00:39:20.447 --> 00:39:22.577
you know, jam female roles in with.

00:39:22.667 --> 00:39:24.197
But, but I would also say.

00:39:24.407 --> 00:39:26.147
Let's go, let's go because yeah, go onto.

00:39:26.548 --> 00:39:30.478
I don't think women would
actually like a male friendship.

00:39:31.258 --> 00:39:33.898
In the way that they think they
would, because what you'd be getting

00:39:33.898 --> 00:39:35.638
is three word, text messages.

00:39:35.998 --> 00:39:39.808
A lot of sitting in silence,
watching television and grunting.

00:39:40.438 --> 00:39:41.848
A lot of like, like you.

00:39:42.358 --> 00:39:45.898
I just don't think you think you want it
because you think that's where the most

00:39:45.898 --> 00:39:48.748
respect and kindness is, but actually.

00:39:49.258 --> 00:39:51.718
Traditional straight male
to male friendship is.

00:39:52.138 --> 00:39:53.248
It's so different.

00:39:53.968 --> 00:39:58.108
Ali: You're in when you're just
being, as you would say, like a not

00:39:58.138 --> 00:40:00.178
communicating, you're holding space.

00:40:00.568 --> 00:40:03.478
To be there with your
friend and a lot of women.

00:40:03.808 --> 00:40:03.958
Yeah.

00:40:03.958 --> 00:40:04.438
That's like,

00:40:04.438 --> 00:40:06.298
Joe: don't make it weird
by talking about feelings.

00:40:07.078 --> 00:40:09.178
Ali: It's just holding the
space that I think a lot of

00:40:09.178 --> 00:40:10.678
men still struggled actually.

00:40:11.038 --> 00:40:11.428
I agree.

00:40:11.578 --> 00:40:13.858
To there with their female partners.

00:40:14.068 --> 00:40:14.428
Yeah.

00:40:14.488 --> 00:40:15.868
Like actually holding space

00:40:15.928 --> 00:40:18.868
Sam: or struggle to do it with
anybody, maybe in a lot of cases, but.

00:40:19.508 --> 00:40:21.158
Here, you wanted refreshing on the quote.

00:40:21.341 --> 00:40:24.071
In their relations with whom and
what passes for respect is kindness,

00:40:24.221 --> 00:40:25.481
generosity, or paternalism.

00:40:25.511 --> 00:40:27.641
What passes for honor his
removal to the pedestal.

00:40:27.971 --> 00:40:30.071
From women, they want
devotion service and sex.

00:40:30.071 --> 00:40:33.791
And I was thinking, you know, Neil young,
a man needs a maid, just someone to keep

00:40:33.791 --> 00:40:35.921
my house clean, cook my meals and go away.

00:40:36.069 --> 00:40:36.729
And devotion

00:40:36.999 --> 00:40:39.429
Joe: devotion, service
and sex was that yes.

00:40:39.909 --> 00:40:42.249
Sam: And really in 2024, though.

00:40:42.729 --> 00:40:45.429
I think, I think it's a bit strong,
but there are still plenty of blokes

00:40:45.429 --> 00:40:48.159
who make a point of saying that's
what they want out of a marriage.

00:40:48.189 --> 00:40:48.489
And.

00:40:48.849 --> 00:40:50.619
Ali: Huge movement of, yeah.

00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:54.039
If you look at the rise of, you
know, the particularly like, you

00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:58.419
know, The masculine and feminine
divide within damaging and trends.

00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:00.789
A lot of that, like, you
know, inhabiting your.

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.348
Joe: A friend of mine was working
for a builder and he was a bit older.

00:41:05.678 --> 00:41:09.038
And he was talking about his problems with
his partner and being a bit complicated.

00:41:09.128 --> 00:41:13.268
And he said, mate, All I'm looking for
as a full stomach and an empty sack.

00:41:13.748 --> 00:41:15.878
Oh, Jesus Christ.

00:41:15.938 --> 00:41:16.718
So that.

00:41:17.348 --> 00:41:18.458
So that kind of.

00:41:18.968 --> 00:41:20.078
That would be

00:41:20.108 --> 00:41:21.038
Sam: that guy's wife.

00:41:21.278 --> 00:41:21.728
Joe: To me.

00:41:21.758 --> 00:41:22.088
That

00:41:22.178 --> 00:41:22.958
Sam: must be nice.

00:41:23.198 --> 00:41:26.798
Joe: That's a throwback up, like
I dunno, 70 years or something.

00:41:27.368 --> 00:41:28.448
Sam: So that makes you cringe.

00:41:30.428 --> 00:41:31.778
Joe: I've never spoken, like.

00:41:32.198 --> 00:41:34.868
I've never thought like that,
because what I want is to be

00:41:34.868 --> 00:41:36.818
tortured in the most complex.

00:41:37.178 --> 00:41:37.838
You do want

00:41:37.838 --> 00:41:38.618
Sam: romance?

00:41:39.458 --> 00:41:40.328
Joe: I'm trying to get.

00:41:41.438 --> 00:41:44.588
I wish I just wanted a full stomach
and an empty sack, but I couldn't

00:41:44.618 --> 00:41:45.968
give a fuck if someone could cook.

00:41:46.028 --> 00:41:49.748
All I want to know is can they
get inside my mind and torture me?

00:41:49.808 --> 00:41:50.648
And if the answer is yes.

00:41:50.738 --> 00:41:51.488
Then I'm interested.

00:41:51.728 --> 00:41:52.358
Yeah, that's

00:41:52.358 --> 00:41:52.778
Sam: right.

00:41:52.838 --> 00:41:54.218
There is a level of respect in that.

00:41:54.728 --> 00:41:55.298
Joe: It's just twist.

00:41:56.258 --> 00:41:57.218
I'm not typical.

00:41:57.218 --> 00:41:58.148
If that's typical.

00:41:58.808 --> 00:42:01.988
Ali: He said that in his
wedding vows and it went viral.

00:42:02.348 --> 00:42:04.478
We said exactly that pretty much exactly.

00:42:04.478 --> 00:42:04.748
That.

00:42:05.588 --> 00:42:06.848
Horrified like that.

00:42:06.998 --> 00:42:07.208
Yeah.

00:42:07.508 --> 00:42:08.528
And I, yeah.

00:42:08.918 --> 00:42:11.588
The comments were just
like, leave him now.

00:42:11.618 --> 00:42:11.678
Like.

00:42:11.888 --> 00:42:12.908
What are you doing?

00:42:12.908 --> 00:42:13.928
Like, no, but even just as.

00:42:14.768 --> 00:42:15.548
Joe: He's being honest.

00:42:15.608 --> 00:42:17.948
Oh, well then shit you
hearing waiting about.

00:42:18.188 --> 00:42:18.638
Jesus.

00:42:18.878 --> 00:42:20.678
Sam: Are there any men piling on in there?

00:42:20.829 --> 00:42:21.369
In the comments.

00:42:21.729 --> 00:42:22.179
I'd hope so.

00:42:22.269 --> 00:42:22.299
I

00:42:22.299 --> 00:42:24.279
Ali: think there were a
few, but like, like, yeah.

00:42:24.279 --> 00:42:24.369
And.

00:42:24.549 --> 00:42:28.659
It comes back to like those sorts of, do
you even like women, like D do you even.

00:42:28.869 --> 00:42:29.649
Thank your partner.

00:42:30.339 --> 00:42:30.939
Yeah, that's the thing.

00:42:30.939 --> 00:42:32.139
I think a lot of men don't.

00:42:32.469 --> 00:42:34.209
Actually like their partner.

00:42:34.539 --> 00:42:35.469
Outside of those.

00:42:35.769 --> 00:42:35.979
Yeah.

00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:38.589
So, I mean, we almost need

00:42:38.619 --> 00:42:39.639
Joe: like high quality.

00:42:39.729 --> 00:42:39.879
Yeah.

00:42:39.909 --> 00:42:41.739
Polling data for, yeah.

00:42:41.949 --> 00:42:45.519
Australia or something to know
how many men want a complex.

00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:47.439
Interesting career woman.

00:42:47.439 --> 00:42:49.929
And how many men just
want a housewife, right?

00:42:50.379 --> 00:42:50.649
Like.

00:42:50.829 --> 00:42:51.909
And an honest poll.

00:42:51.909 --> 00:42:53.139
I don't know what those numbers would.

00:42:53.589 --> 00:42:54.129
I mean.

00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:55.029
Also

00:42:55.029 --> 00:42:57.189
Sam: people are bad at predicting
what will make them happy.

00:42:57.399 --> 00:42:59.709
So they think they want
a certain something.

00:42:59.769 --> 00:43:00.519
Then they get it.

00:43:00.549 --> 00:43:06.249
Then they're like, ah, Actually I
have been underestimating the fact

00:43:06.249 --> 00:43:09.609
that I value intelligence in women,
you know, I've seen this happen.

00:43:09.969 --> 00:43:10.089
This

00:43:10.089 --> 00:43:11.379
Joe: other cultural trend Wolf.

00:43:11.379 --> 00:43:15.429
We'll, we'll wrap it up, but the Ali's
all over this and I've seen signs of it.

00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:17.169
I don't really understand
it, but it's yeah.

00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:18.969
There's cultural trend.

00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:21.219
I've seen it on dating apps too.

00:43:21.309 --> 00:43:24.399
And they're always these women,
they talk about polarities

00:43:24.669 --> 00:43:26.049
Ali: and being in their feminine energy.

00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:26.139
That's.

00:43:26.499 --> 00:43:27.189
And then they say,

00:43:27.309 --> 00:43:31.869
Joe: I want you to be in your
masculine energy and take control.

00:43:32.259 --> 00:43:34.479
And I want to stay in my femininity.

00:43:34.839 --> 00:43:37.329
Mm, and polarity is the part.

00:43:37.329 --> 00:43:39.069
I have no idea what they're
talking about, but that's.

00:43:39.309 --> 00:43:40.209
Ali: I seems to be.

00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:42.939
Yeah,

00:43:42.999 --> 00:43:44.259
Joe: but powerful move.

00:43:44.889 --> 00:43:45.639
Ali: I'd say growing.

00:43:45.999 --> 00:43:46.209
You've

00:43:46.209 --> 00:43:48.639
Joe: talked about women who
want to be a housewife again.

00:43:48.789 --> 00:43:49.119
Ali: Yeah.

00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:53.949
And I think, I mean, that probably
comes down to the stresses and the

00:43:53.949 --> 00:43:55.569
pressures that women are on and that.

00:43:55.629 --> 00:43:55.869
Yeah.

00:43:56.859 --> 00:44:00.759
And yeah, that wanting someone in their
masculine energy, basically someone

00:44:00.789 --> 00:44:04.719
who will take the lead and organize
a date and do something thoughtful

00:44:04.989 --> 00:44:06.939
and, you know, We'll just be specific.

00:44:07.029 --> 00:44:07.209
Yeah.

00:44:07.749 --> 00:44:09.909
Sit back and relax and just be present.

00:44:10.539 --> 00:44:11.379
Michael the decision.

00:44:11.589 --> 00:44:13.629
Sam: There's nothing wrong
with, I think you could be

00:44:13.629 --> 00:44:16.359
perfectly on your square to say.

00:44:16.869 --> 00:44:20.139
In the profile or in an exchange,
man, I would just love someone

00:44:20.139 --> 00:44:21.339
else to do the organizing.

00:44:21.339 --> 00:44:22.179
I think that's fine.

00:44:22.389 --> 00:44:23.379
But to do.

00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:26.199
Put all this jargon on,
it seems a bit silly.

00:44:26.439 --> 00:44:28.269
I say, just communicate
clearly, everybody.

00:44:28.299 --> 00:44:31.419
Joe: Like if you went to one of
those women and said, look, I'm

00:44:31.419 --> 00:44:35.049
at 250 grand a year, I just want
a full stomach and an empty stack.

00:44:35.439 --> 00:44:36.699
But probably be up for it.

00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:38.439
Oh, well, you have to go along with.

00:44:39.489 --> 00:44:41.679
I'm in my polarity to UN.

00:44:41.979 --> 00:44:43.299
I can't be honest.

00:44:43.299 --> 00:44:44.349
He just got a bullshit.

00:44:44.379 --> 00:44:45.009
Sam: Do you know what Joe would?

00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:47.769
I think that sounds to me
like do some psychotherapy.

00:44:47.769 --> 00:44:47.949
Yeah.

00:44:48.039 --> 00:44:51.639
What's going on in there is a bit
of, I actually really struggled

00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:53.169
to communicate my needs properly.

00:44:53.529 --> 00:44:54.909
I really struggle with boundaries.

00:44:54.999 --> 00:44:58.839
What I want you to do is figure out
what I want and then make that happen

00:44:58.839 --> 00:45:00.459
because I'm a child and I can't.

00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:00.849
Yeah.

00:45:01.389 --> 00:45:01.539
All right.

00:45:01.839 --> 00:45:02.319
Experiment.

00:45:02.379 --> 00:45:04.749
When I try to imagine
mainstream the blunt.

00:45:04.899 --> 00:45:08.319
Joe: I try and imagine mainstream
Australia, because I'm a bit of a weirdo.

00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:09.129
And I'm living.

00:45:09.129 --> 00:45:09.819
What is that?

00:45:09.819 --> 00:45:10.179
Even.

00:45:10.659 --> 00:45:11.829
So, all right here, I'll give you a.

00:45:12.729 --> 00:45:13.839
Picture, I'll paint you a picture.

00:45:14.139 --> 00:45:17.169
You live in torquey down
the great ocean road.

00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.319
You go surfing at six o'clock
every morning, then you drive

00:45:20.349 --> 00:45:22.269
into the city in your $50,000.

00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:24.159
And you work on a construction site.

00:45:24.609 --> 00:45:25.029
Now.

00:45:25.989 --> 00:45:28.059
That gosh, it's a niche lifestyle.

00:45:28.059 --> 00:45:28.779
Like all the others.

00:45:28.809 --> 00:45:28.989
Yeah.

00:45:29.109 --> 00:45:29.919
That guy.

00:45:30.429 --> 00:45:31.599
I would expect.

00:45:32.169 --> 00:45:33.969
His partner to have a career.

00:45:34.059 --> 00:45:37.449
And I don't think he would be too worried
if that partner's career was quite

00:45:37.449 --> 00:45:39.369
fulfilling and meaningful to that partner.

00:45:40.299 --> 00:45:42.519
I think the mainstream in Australia.

00:45:42.999 --> 00:45:45.549
There there isn't like stay home and wear

00:45:45.549 --> 00:45:46.569
Sam: a fucking fly.

00:45:46.809 --> 00:45:49.269
I think most, most blokes I
know would be like, what do you

00:45:49.269 --> 00:45:50.229
mean you're not going to work?

00:45:51.699 --> 00:45:52.809
Ali: Well, there's bills to pay.

00:45:53.709 --> 00:45:54.879
Yeah, that they are men want.

00:45:55.089 --> 00:45:57.279
Like they want the 50, 50.

00:45:57.999 --> 00:45:58.449
Like, yeah.

00:45:58.659 --> 00:45:59.949
Economic benefits.

00:46:00.969 --> 00:46:03.519
Relationship, but they don't necessarily.

00:46:04.329 --> 00:46:07.569
One to then do the 50, 50 of the unpaid.

00:46:08.049 --> 00:46:12.189
Domestic labor, but they still expect
their partner to bring all of that.

00:46:12.579 --> 00:46:13.779
Once you said there's probably truth.

00:46:14.829 --> 00:46:16.449
You know, fucking and.

00:46:17.109 --> 00:46:18.279
And bring in a paycheck.

00:46:18.309 --> 00:46:18.729
Sam: Yeah.

00:46:18.999 --> 00:46:21.639
Ali: Which is, I think why
there's been this pushback of

00:46:21.669 --> 00:46:22.479
women going, you know what?

00:46:22.479 --> 00:46:22.869
Hang on.

00:46:22.869 --> 00:46:23.169
I.

00:46:23.709 --> 00:46:24.639
You can pay.

00:46:24.849 --> 00:46:26.349
I fact, there's 50 50.

00:46:26.589 --> 00:46:29.529
I'm going to sit back and just
let you take me out and do that

00:46:29.529 --> 00:46:30.969
because I already do enough.

00:46:31.179 --> 00:46:34.639
Sam: Yeah, no look, but in fairness
to all, I think that's true.

00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:35.329
What you said, Ali.

00:46:35.839 --> 00:46:39.109
And there's, also a little bit of
a converse that goes with it, which

00:46:39.109 --> 00:46:43.399
is I do want a modern man who, you
know, communicates respectfully

00:46:43.399 --> 00:46:46.819
and does not have this sense of
entitlement and all the rest of it.

00:46:47.359 --> 00:46:48.499
But I also.

00:46:48.979 --> 00:46:52.189
Do expect him to carry out some old
fashioned mail rolls at the same

00:46:52.189 --> 00:46:56.559
time, fixing things Carry certain
patriarchal burdens the privileges.

00:46:56.569 --> 00:46:59.989
And then there are blokes who say,
yeah, I want you to carry the burden

00:46:59.989 --> 00:47:02.329
of work, but also the burden of.

00:47:02.689 --> 00:47:03.439
Domestic labor.

00:47:03.859 --> 00:47:06.919
I think there's a lot of people trying to
have a bet each way, everywhere you look.

00:47:06.979 --> 00:47:09.679
Joe: I don't think you'd get too
far in Australia expecting your

00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:12.829
part, your female partner to be
completely subservient to you.

00:47:13.309 --> 00:47:14.779
I just don't think that.

00:47:15.429 --> 00:47:17.019
Maybe it flies in other
parts of the world.

00:47:17.439 --> 00:47:17.529
I

00:47:17.529 --> 00:47:18.909
Ali: think it's it's, it's stronger.

00:47:19.479 --> 00:47:22.319
In the us, and that's where a
lot of these evangelical themes.

00:47:23.249 --> 00:47:26.279
Yeah, the religious context to
it, but also the economic problem.

00:47:26.309 --> 00:47:26.549
Pretty

00:47:26.549 --> 00:47:27.959
Sam: big in Saudi Arabia, too.

00:47:27.959 --> 00:47:28.289
Right?

00:47:28.409 --> 00:47:33.029
I just feel if I encounter it, this
subservient vibe in a woman, I just

00:47:33.059 --> 00:47:35.339
immediately feel weird and uncomfortable.

00:47:35.789 --> 00:47:36.629
It feels very.

00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:40.079
It feels dishonest to me,
honestly, I don't trust it.

00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:40.409
And I think.

00:47:41.279 --> 00:47:44.729
Joe: Ever ended up on a date with one of
the polarity being your masculine energy.

00:47:44.909 --> 00:47:45.569
We recommend it,

00:47:45.787 --> 00:47:48.157
Sam: I think I wouldn't be
the only man who's noticed.

00:47:48.877 --> 00:47:51.067
That their female partner.

00:47:51.667 --> 00:47:54.997
Seemed to care more at times
what the female friend thought.

00:47:55.447 --> 00:47:58.567
Them, you know, Art,
the bloke things like a

00:47:58.567 --> 00:47:59.707
Joe: pressing issue or.

00:47:59.947 --> 00:48:02.797
No, just like, as you know
of what they're wearing.

00:48:02.857 --> 00:48:03.127
Yeah.

00:48:03.127 --> 00:48:03.577
Yeah.

00:48:05.677 --> 00:48:06.397
Ali: absolutely.

00:48:06.487 --> 00:48:07.987
Going to ask my girlfriends.

00:48:08.437 --> 00:48:09.427
And as Lee said

00:48:09.937 --> 00:48:10.597
Joe: that you leave.

00:48:10.717 --> 00:48:12.427
We leave for that compliment
from other windows.

00:48:13.057 --> 00:48:15.847
And then all the girls walk
by dressed up for each other.

00:48:15.877 --> 00:48:16.447
That's right.

00:48:16.477 --> 00:48:17.047
Ali: Absolutely.

00:48:18.397 --> 00:48:18.637
Yeah.

00:48:18.667 --> 00:48:19.687
There's some things.

00:48:19.717 --> 00:48:20.377
Absolutely.

00:48:21.247 --> 00:48:21.427
It is

00:48:21.427 --> 00:48:22.537
Sam: true about a lot of women.

00:48:22.777 --> 00:48:27.067
Ali: Yeah, we absolutely value
women's opinions about certain things.

00:48:27.517 --> 00:48:28.327
Higher than men's.

00:48:28.927 --> 00:48:29.497
Absolutely.

00:48:29.527 --> 00:48:29.737
And

00:48:29.737 --> 00:48:34.537
Sam: that if you had your choice of a
day out with your male partner or a day

00:48:34.537 --> 00:48:39.817
out with a woman, you like and admire
it's, it's, it's not much of a contest.

00:48:40.447 --> 00:48:43.577
And,  the number of times in
that within heterosexual unions.

00:48:43.877 --> 00:48:44.777
That I've actually.

00:48:45.767 --> 00:48:48.257
Felt that the other person chose things.

00:48:48.257 --> 00:48:49.187
I would enjoy it.

00:48:49.817 --> 00:48:51.197
To do that day.

00:48:51.227 --> 00:48:53.687
Not a lot of the time I got
to say, I don't, didn't always

00:48:53.687 --> 00:48:54.977
feel very well understood.

00:48:55.037 --> 00:48:59.327
Or accounted for, or like, all the
thoughtfulness was thoughtfulness.

00:48:59.327 --> 00:49:02.507
That would make sense with someone
else, like with another woman,

00:49:02.567 --> 00:49:03.947
but it didn't make sense with me.

00:49:04.007 --> 00:49:05.057
Conversation with somebody

00:49:05.057 --> 00:49:06.107
Ali: recently who had.

00:49:07.127 --> 00:49:09.827
Um, I'd organize a date for them.

00:49:09.887 --> 00:49:12.347
And yeah, they were like, this
is exactly the kind of thing

00:49:12.377 --> 00:49:14.477
I would have wanted to do.

00:49:14.477 --> 00:49:18.377
And was lamenting the fact that like,
But his birthday, the previous year,

00:49:18.377 --> 00:49:22.577
when he was in this partnership, they had
Oregon, they had organized or chosen to

00:49:22.577 --> 00:49:24.407
do something that was absolutely not what.

00:49:25.157 --> 00:49:27.587
He wanted to do, and he
didn't feel safe in head.

00:49:28.037 --> 00:49:28.907
Which I think, yeah, a lot.

00:49:28.907 --> 00:49:30.167
I mean, a lot of, yeah.

00:49:30.227 --> 00:49:31.247
I mean, while we're back.

00:49:31.547 --> 00:49:35.117
That quote, I suppose, speaks to the
experience of women and feeling that there

00:49:35.147 --> 00:49:38.747
certainly are men who do not feel seen
and heard and to feel seen and heard.

00:49:38.747 --> 00:49:41.417
I think that's a very human thing
to want to be seen and heard.

00:49:41.687 --> 00:49:44.027
Sam: And I think that there's
an intense homosocial homosocial

00:49:44.297 --> 00:49:46.127
reality in many heterosexual women.

00:49:46.127 --> 00:49:46.307
And.

00:49:46.817 --> 00:49:49.157
I don't and we're not meant
to have a problem with it.

00:49:49.697 --> 00:49:51.647
And so Maryland's calling something out.

00:49:51.987 --> 00:49:54.537
Leaving aside, you know, the
long history of patriarchy.

00:49:55.137 --> 00:49:59.307
Can we also say this is a thing we can
observe in many heterosexual women.

00:49:59.517 --> 00:50:00.687
And is that a problem?

00:50:00.987 --> 00:50:03.267
So, is it necessarily a
problem in the other direction?

00:50:03.267 --> 00:50:05.607
Well, it depends on what
expectations are coming with it.

00:50:05.997 --> 00:50:07.737
If a woman said.

00:50:08.277 --> 00:50:08.517
Yeah.

00:50:08.547 --> 00:50:12.297
I'm only interested in men
for devotion service and sex.

00:50:12.387 --> 00:50:15.717
Um, yeah, I think we might object
and I like to think we're almost

00:50:15.717 --> 00:50:17.817
at a point where we expect.

00:50:18.687 --> 00:50:22.197
Uh, behavioral standards among
men and women to be the same.

00:50:22.527 --> 00:50:23.247
Like am I.

00:50:23.307 --> 00:50:23.847
Are we there?

00:50:24.627 --> 00:50:26.907
Ali: I don't think we're quite
there, but, um, and so can we call

00:50:26.907 --> 00:50:28.947
Sam: childishness out wherever we see it?

00:50:29.157 --> 00:50:31.437
Can we call selfishness
out wherever we see it?

00:50:31.467 --> 00:50:31.677
Yeah.

00:50:31.807 --> 00:50:34.897
So many men have failed to understand
their female partners have failed

00:50:34.927 --> 00:50:37.987
to listen and have failed to really
account for what they would like

00:50:37.987 --> 00:50:39.307
and what their true interests are.

00:50:39.697 --> 00:50:42.997
And can we also say that so many
women fail to do that and the

00:50:42.997 --> 00:50:45.547
group, the great joy for me of the

00:50:45.547 --> 00:50:46.507
Joe: male friendship.

00:50:47.407 --> 00:50:50.377
Is the complete dependability of it.

00:50:51.097 --> 00:50:54.277
So that like Sam, I
hadn't seen for 10 years.

00:50:54.757 --> 00:50:55.477
And then we pull up.

00:50:55.807 --> 00:50:56.407
That's in the car.

00:50:56.407 --> 00:50:57.577
We drive to a Chuco.

00:50:57.637 --> 00:50:58.357
And it's like, yeah.

00:50:58.777 --> 00:51:01.117
There's no need to say, Hey man, how come?

00:51:01.207 --> 00:51:01.477
Sorry.

00:51:03.157 --> 00:51:04.237
You're uncontactable.

00:51:04.237 --> 00:51:06.517
And how come you ignore
those five text messages?

00:51:06.997 --> 00:51:07.447
That's right.

00:51:08.467 --> 00:51:09.937
And why don't you care about me?

00:51:09.937 --> 00:51:12.127
And didn't, you know,
This is none of that.

00:51:12.127 --> 00:51:15.007
It's like getting the car
dickhead and that's all.

00:51:15.157 --> 00:51:15.697
It's done.

00:51:15.697 --> 00:51:17.077
It's not like succeeding.

00:51:17.437 --> 00:51:18.127
Underneath.

00:51:18.547 --> 00:51:18.907
I can have

00:51:19.597 --> 00:51:20.347
Ali: friendships like that with.

00:51:21.097 --> 00:51:21.877
I hope so.

00:51:21.907 --> 00:51:22.747
A really long time.

00:51:22.747 --> 00:51:24.787
And then when you catch
up at no time has passed.

00:51:24.787 --> 00:51:25.627
It's exactly the same.

00:51:25.897 --> 00:51:27.277
A hundred percent beautiful feeling, but.

00:51:27.337 --> 00:51:27.517
Yeah.

00:51:27.667 --> 00:51:29.197
Joe: So, yeah, let's finish it up.

00:51:29.227 --> 00:51:29.497
But.

00:51:29.767 --> 00:51:30.637
And maybe that's

00:51:30.637 --> 00:51:32.857
Sam: easier for women to experience
with other women sometimes.

00:51:33.367 --> 00:51:33.667
Yeah.

00:51:34.897 --> 00:51:37.597
Joe: The problem with writing
a well-worded academic

00:51:38.017 --> 00:51:39.457
article on male friendship.

00:51:39.487 --> 00:51:39.877
Yeah.

00:51:39.967 --> 00:51:42.067
It's I think it's so fucking simple.

00:51:42.247 --> 00:51:43.477
You might actually miss it.

00:51:43.597 --> 00:51:46.327
Um, and you can't really put
the big words and all that.

00:51:46.327 --> 00:51:46.867
They don't really.

00:51:47.437 --> 00:51:50.977
It's at the level of
like caveman grunting.

00:51:51.277 --> 00:51:52.957
And passing around a hunk of meat.

00:51:53.347 --> 00:51:56.677
Um, if you can think of it, if
you can conceive of it like that.

00:51:57.157 --> 00:51:58.507
And not make it complex.

00:51:58.537 --> 00:52:02.497
You'll have a much better understanding
of Malmo to male friendship.

00:52:03.307 --> 00:52:03.667
Sam: I don't know,

00:52:03.697 --> 00:52:03.877
Ali: man.

00:52:04.777 --> 00:52:06.247
I think you're selling yourself short.

00:52:06.337 --> 00:52:06.787
I think so.

00:52:07.597 --> 00:52:09.757
Men want and need more than that.

00:52:09.787 --> 00:52:09.877
I.

00:52:10.027 --> 00:52:10.807
All relationships are

00:52:10.807 --> 00:52:11.677
Sam: rich and complicated.

00:52:11.737 --> 00:52:11.977
Yeah.

00:52:12.667 --> 00:52:15.757
Ali: And what you're getting from that
is actually a lot more, like I said,

00:52:15.757 --> 00:52:20.347
your it's a space that your male friends
are holding for you to just be, yeah.

00:52:20.347 --> 00:52:23.137
It's actually providing a lot
more than just grunting and.

00:52:23.797 --> 00:52:24.577
And can I tell you that?

00:52:24.847 --> 00:52:27.337
Joe: As this is the nonverbal
communication of sitting.

00:52:27.967 --> 00:52:28.777
They're in a car.

00:52:28.927 --> 00:52:30.577
Sam: But the incredible subtlety.

00:52:30.907 --> 00:52:32.107
Of what goes on.

00:52:32.407 --> 00:52:34.897
And that did the subtle ways that.

00:52:35.557 --> 00:52:39.817
Someone's feeling might be acknowledged
and, you know, like without causing

00:52:39.817 --> 00:52:43.777
embarrassment or loss of face, And
I can tell you, I know the subtlety.

00:52:44.737 --> 00:52:44.917
Yeah.

00:52:45.007 --> 00:52:46.147
Because complex.

00:52:46.237 --> 00:52:46.957
Does that make sense?

00:52:47.227 --> 00:52:47.677
Yeah, no, no.

00:52:47.707 --> 00:52:48.607
I see what you're saying.

00:52:48.757 --> 00:52:52.857
I think it's a bit of false binary, but
also I can say I've seen the subtlety

00:52:52.857 --> 00:52:56.277
of it because I've gotten it wrong so
many times with other men and maybe

00:52:56.277 --> 00:52:59.997
it's ISD, or maybe it's something else,
but like, Oh, something's not right.

00:53:00.057 --> 00:53:02.127
I have not done this the right way.

00:53:02.307 --> 00:53:06.987
So I, so from my outsider alien
perspective, it's a complex little

00:53:06.987 --> 00:53:09.627
dance if you want my opinion, but.

00:53:10.017 --> 00:53:12.207
To you, it's simple because
you know, the moves.

00:53:12.807 --> 00:53:16.257
Joe: It reminds me of the start of the
first episode or the first episode of

00:53:16.287 --> 00:53:18.267
Sopranos that it goes into therapy.

00:53:18.447 --> 00:53:18.867
Sam: Yeah.

00:53:19.917 --> 00:53:20.547
Joe: And he said.

00:53:21.177 --> 00:53:24.117
It says whatever happened to Gary
Cooper, the strong, silent type.

00:53:25.137 --> 00:53:28.467
Like I can think of a friendship I
forced in the last five years, just

00:53:28.467 --> 00:53:29.937
sitting next to someone at the footy.

00:53:30.747 --> 00:53:33.567
And we might say something once an hour.

00:53:34.317 --> 00:53:36.627
And I do it for a couple of years
and he's like one of my closest

00:53:36.627 --> 00:53:38.097
friends and we've never even spoken.

00:53:38.337 --> 00:53:39.897
Um, that's cool.

00:53:39.927 --> 00:53:40.677
I love that shit.

00:53:40.677 --> 00:53:45.057
That clinic, clean ACE food, masculinity,
that kind of like roll into town.

00:53:45.267 --> 00:53:47.577
Like on a, on horseback, who is this guy?

00:53:47.847 --> 00:53:48.057
Sam: Right?

00:53:48.357 --> 00:53:49.347
Did you hear about Gary?

00:53:49.347 --> 00:53:49.617
Yeah.

00:53:49.617 --> 00:53:51.537
I forgot to go to the GP for 20 years.

00:53:58.377 --> 00:53:58.977
Joe: See you later.

00:53:59.547 --> 00:53:59.757
Ali: Yeah.