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Why don't we trust the Terminator? He's strong, smart, and always keeps his word — but nobody would trust him. The answer reveals the hidden psychology of trust that most people never think about.
In this episode, Joe Lazer and Shane Snow sit down with Dr. F. David Schoorman, a Purdue University professor whose research on trust has been cited over 50,000 times — including what's widely considered the most influential psychology paper of the 1990s. His new research flips the conventional wisdom on trust: it's often the person doing the trusting, not the person being trusted, who destroys the relationship.
We explore why Americans trust strangers far more than any other culture, why your boss probably trusts you more than you trust them, how 85% of Gen Z students track each other's locations without realizing what it signals, and why Tiger Woods' PR team understood the psychology of betrayal better than most psychologists.
Key topics:
The three pillars of trust — and the hidden one most people miss
The Terminator Test: Shane's framework for why we trust (or don't)
Why location-sharing apps may be destroying your relationships
How the "trustor" — the person doing the trusting — often sabotages trust
Why Americans are the most trusting culture in the world
The trust gap between bosses and employees
How remote work created a trust vacuum
Why you should never talk about business in a first meeting
Excessive transparency as a "control system" that kills trust
The pandemic generation's trust crisis
Can trust be repaired after betrayal? A preview of Dr. Schoorman's next research
The Tiger Woods case study: reframing betrayal as an ability problem
About our guest:
Dr. F. David Schoorman is a Professor of Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management at Purdue University's Daniels School of Business. He received the Academy of Management's "Distinguished Educator" career award in 2007. His foundational 1995 paper "An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (with Mayer and Davis) was recognized as the most influential article published in the Academy of Management Review in the 1990s.
Research discussed in this episode:
"An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (Mayer, Davis, Schoorman, 1995): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.1995.9508080335
"What We Do While Waiting: The Experience of Vulnerability in Trusting Relationships" (Ballinger, Schoorman, Sharma, 2024): https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amr.2022.0080
"An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust: Past, Present, and Future" (Schoorman, Mayer, Davis, 2007): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.2007.24348410
Chapters:
(00:00) Joe and Shane's trust confessions (01:09) The Terminator Test for trust (03:28) The hidden factor: benevolence (06:37) Dr. David Schoorman joins (07:32) Why emotion was left out of trust research (08:23) The trustor problem explained (09:59) Why Americans trust strangers more (11:15) The laptop-in-a-cafe test (12:18) Why your boss trusts you more (14:07) Should bosses share their story? (14:56) "Multiply the exchanges" (15:28) Has remote work broken trust? (17:43) Virtual teams need in-person time (18:09) Joe's A-Team Portugal offsite story (20:48) Never talk business in meeting one (21:13) ChatGPT emails erode connection (21:32) The pandemic generation's crisis (23:05) 85% of Gen Z track each other (24:18) "You're saying I don't trust you" (25:50) Deleting the tracking app worked (26:34) Workplace surveillance: Mad Men vs now (27:27) Don't use employee monitoring tools (29:19) How boss anxiety sabotages trust (30:03) Prevention vs. promotion focus (31:18) Transparency has a tipping point (32:19) "Transparency becomes control" (33:50) Toddler parenting as management (35:27) Can trust be repaired after betrayal? (37:12) "You're making up the story" (38:02) The Tiger Woods case study
Listen and subscribe:
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245 Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcast
The Art of the Zag is the podcast about people who win big by zagging when everyone else is zigging. Hosted by Joe Lazer (bestselling author of The Storytelling Edge and Super Skill) and Shane Snow (bestselling author of Smartcuts and Dream Teams).
Best-selling authors and long-time buddies Shane Snow and Joe Lazer explore how to win by zagging when everyone else is zigging—in business and in life. Learn breakthrough strategies for building trust, telling better stories, and winning the AI Age from the world's most innovative founders, authors, and icons. Have an idea for a guest? Email guest@joelazer.com.
storytellingedge.substack.com