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Kevin: Hello, and welcome back,
one last time for this season of

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Starfleet Academy, to Subspace Radio.

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It's me, Kevin,

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Rob: and me, Rob.

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Kevin: And we're here to talk about
season one, episode 10, Rubincon.

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Rubincon.

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Rob: Rubincon, not Rubicon, Rubin.

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Kevin: It was fun watching the
internet puzzle over the spelling

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of this episode title in the
hours before the show went live.

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About half the sites I visited had
had fixed the typo to Rubicon going,

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surely it's Rubicon and everyone who
is before me in the editorial process

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before this made it to my desk, got it
wrong, so I'm gonna be the one to fix it.

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And then, uh, sure enough, the
actual title is a deliberate typo.

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So it was fun, fun to watch
the internet wrestle over the

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title of a Star Trek episode.

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Rob: We are in indeed in the age
of the internet where subtlety

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is, uh, no longer a factor.

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Kevin: Yeah, well, at least
Paramount Plus got it right.

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They have, they have suffered from
misspellings of their Star Trek

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in the past and they got this one.

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Right.

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So that was good to see.

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Rob: That's right, that's right.

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Well, yeah, we all remember the
infamous, uh, Deep Space 20, uh, typo.

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No, no, no.

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That's just,

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Kevin: Let's, uh, before we get to our big
topic for this week, which is mothers, uh,

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Rob: Yeah.

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Kevin: the amazing appearance of Tatiana
Maslany as Caleb's mother, um, let's

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talk about this, this season finale, Rob.

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It was like a movie length thing.

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It was an hour and 15.

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Rob: It was longer than I expected.

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I, I got home, uh, from work
and sat down and go, well, this

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would be done in 45 minutes.

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And I was surprised.

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I, I got, I got the feeling when they
didn't do the usual opening credits,

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they did a title card, a moving
title card over the action, the CGI

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Kevin: Gosh, yeah, it was that long
even without an opening credit sequence.

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Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So, um, uh, it was, uh, a bit longer.

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It could let some scenes breathe a bit
more, and a great way to finish off

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the season to give a bit more, uh, a
breath to everything that is going on.

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Kevin: Mm. Yes.

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I don't mind saying, I think
they stuck the landing.

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This is, uh, this is a solid
end to the season in my books.

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Rob: I do too.

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I mean, there's a couple of little
gripes about the threat and how it

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went to sort of like, uh, you know,
galactic slash universal type, uh,

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threat, which in many ways kind of feels
outta character for, uh, uh, Nus Braka.

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It could have, it could have
been quite small, just like

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surrounding Beta Z or something like

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Kevin: Yeah, exactly.

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Rob: that's like, that's
type of nitpicky stuff.

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Um, the, the, the, the, the, you know,
the thrust of it was, it was a really

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good episode of, of, of Star Trek.

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Wonderful writing, really good effects,
really raises up the character stakes.

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Incredible scenes where we had not
one, not two, but three Emmy award

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winning actors, um, you know, one
Academy Award winner, one academy

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nominee, um, all in the same scene.

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And, and to quote Dr. Who, uh, everybody
lives like, pretty much everyone

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survived this, which was remarkable.

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Kevin: Mm. Yeah.

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I, I was at, at a certain point
I sort of like stepped out of the

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episode while I was watching and went,
this is people arguing over issues.

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Like, this is the final battle of this
season is a battle of words and ideas.

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And isn't there anything
more Star Trek than that?

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Rob: Even though we've only had Tatiana
for two episodes, really, we had a

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little bit of episode one to cover
that gravity, that emotional weight,

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Kevin: She had a tough job to build
up, I feel like a head of steam and

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gravitas quickly because they didn't,
there wasn't a lot of room for her

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in these last couple of episodes.

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So she had to, she had to get
there fast and, and play a lot of

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depth of emotion with a very few
seconds of, of footage, I felt.

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Rob: Definitely.

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And we've seen it all from sort like
Caleb's point of view, and he had an

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entire season to work through that trauma.

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Um, whereas Anisha had, to do it in,
um, yeah, like you said, minutes,

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sometimes seconds of, uh, of screen time.

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Kevin: I felt like she had, she spent a
lot of this episode in kind of wide-eyed

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shock at what, what was happening to
her and the feelings it was bringing up

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the, i i, she was hired for the wideness
of her eyes at times it felt like.

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But um, those, those final moments of her
taking the floor in the trial and holding

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the Federation through Ake to account,
uh, was powerful and great to watch.

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Her reaction to the reason
from Ake of just like stony

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face going Nala Ake is guilty.

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Uh, I, I really enjoyed that moment
of like, she knows she's wrong,

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but she's choosing to double down
on the wrongness in this moment.

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Rob: Yeah, there was a beautiful moment
of the counter argument, which hasn't

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been really raised because it's been
focusing on, you know, Caleb and Anisha.

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Just the moment of going,
okay, we're focusing on loss.

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Let's focus on the man that was killed.

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Kevin: Mm.

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Rob: What did you expect to happen with
the situation that you were going into?

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This man was, this man's life was
taken, and she and Ake making it

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clear that this does not take away
the pain and the torture that you

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went through, but you, you are not
an innocent party in this situation,

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which I found really quite powerful.

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It was done in a nice way
that it wasn't, um, jarring.

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It wasn't, um, uh, emotionally
or morally awkward.

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It was a really nice, well made
point to give a bit of scope and,

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uh, perspective on the situation,
which I, um, really appreciated.

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It was really clever and
really emotionally mature.

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Kevin: And I really liked that Nus
Braka kind of had a point as well.

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Like you could see it from his
perspective and go, well, yeah,

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you know, his actions are kind of
justified from his point of view.

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Uh, it feels like a while since we've
had a Star Trek villain who wasn't

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A) a madman, or B) just a friend
who doesn't understand you yet.

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you know, I'm thinking like the, the, the
species 10-C in, in Discovery where it was

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at the end of the day, it was like, if we
can just manage to get to them and talk to

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them, this can all be all be sorted out.

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And, uh, no, like no Nus Braka has,
you know, he has a life experience.

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He, he understood the truth of the
situation to be different than it was.

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Uh, and acted one might say accordingly.

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The, uh, the Omega 47 stuff, I think
is an interesting shade of gray that

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if you go back, I've seen some, uh,
some YouTube videos breaking this down,

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that if you go back and and hear, uh,
Admiral Vance talking about the theft of

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the Omega 47 in the earlier episode, he
says it was a weapons research station.

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He says, that was not the only
weapon we were developing there.

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And so for Nala on the stand to say we
weren't developing it as a weapon, we were

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developing it as a power source, I don't
know if the intent that was the intended

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truth in that moment, but the writers,
if it was, the writers didn't quite get

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their stories straight in these episodes.

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And I think I choose to believe that
the, the, the truth is a little grayer

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there, that they were researching it as
a power source and a weapon if need be.

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And, uh, some, it was on some people's
budgets as a weapons research program,

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and that Nala flexed the truth when
put on the stand and that even the

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Federation is not completely perfect.

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Rob: Yes.

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And anytime I heard, uh, Omega 47,
I just immediately go to Galaxy

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Quest and go, ooh, Omega 13.

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Kevin: 47 is a, uh, is a
joke number in Star Trek.

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There's a long history, uh, starting
with Star Trek writer Joe Mansky,

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who went to a college where there
was a club called the 47 Society.

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Bringing it to Star Trek, he decided
to use that number whenever he

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could as a nod to his alma mater.

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And it survives to this day.

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Every time they need a
conspicuous number, it's 47.

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Rob: Well, there you go.

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I found, um, I found Giamatti
was at his best here.

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There was like, there was an element
of menace and intensity and maybe a

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little bit of, um, scenery chewing
with his previous appearances.

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But this one was, there was a nice balance
of showing that vulnerability as well,

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and that his truth about his father.

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And he genuinely was shocked to find
out the truth of the matter from AKIs

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point of view, which he didn't believe.

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But

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Kevin: Lies and propaganda!

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No, it's science.

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Rob: Uh, I would go so
far as to say fake news.

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Kevin: He's great.

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He was off the leash.

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There are some moments where like
he was physically grandstanding in a

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way that was very enjoyable to watch.

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In a script that could have been a
talking head, he was a stalking tiger

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around that, that big atrium set.

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It was fun, fun to watch, for

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Rob: And, and, having that balance of,
well, the atrium set being, you know,

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made to look like it's been destroyed,
you know, classic Star Trek element there.

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But, um, he, his balance of his
menace, his, his, his panther stalking,

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but also his showmanship appeal to
the masses of everyone watching.

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There was a great balance.

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So he couldn't be like in
that previous episode with

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Ake, where he was just menace.

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There was no one watching him, so
he could be pure, I just hate you.

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But this is, he's had that balance
of menace and intimidation, but

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also that showing off to the people.

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Yeah.

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Kevin: Frankly, genius
set reuse, I have to say.

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That that atrium set, uh, was used in so
many ways this season, and you, you can,

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when you look back, you're like, this is
why the Athena did the saucer separation.

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This is why the ship
was designed that way.

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You could tell that early in the
conception of this or production

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of this show, they were saying, we
can't afford to build the atrium.

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And they said, well, what if we, what
if we also use it as a debate stage for

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the site of the federation headquarters?

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They're like, well, that'll
save you a few thousand dollars,

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but we still can't afford it.

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What if it's also a phaser tag court?

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What if it's also the
ship's theater stage?

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And what if it's also the big
bad's layer outside of Federation

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space on at the end of the season?

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And they went, okay,
you can have the money.

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Rob: Yeah.

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Kevin: So much of not just this
episode, but this entire season was

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structured around, it felt, that
constraint of we want to build this

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yawning space that feels like a campus
ground, but we can only afford it

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if we find another way to use it.

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Another set.

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We would not have to build every single
episode this season, it felt like.

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Rob: Yes.

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Kevin: Yeah.

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Rob: So that's, that was
kind of our B story, really.

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Or was it the a it's the, A story, but the
B story is kind of our lead characters.

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So while this is all going on, we've
got, uh, the saucer section, uh,

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still in trouble, and our cadets are
there being led by, uh, not Captain

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Kevin: not Captain,

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Rob: Commander Jett Reno.

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Kevin: Jett Reno in teacher
mode is my favorite thing.

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Rob: Oh, Tig, Tig, Tig Notaro has
been going up and up and up and up,

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and this episode, she slayed it.

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She absolutely slayed it.

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She was absolutely amazing.

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Incredible, beautiful, beautiful words
for her to sprout out and yeah, teaching

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teacher commander and get out of this
situation and engineering as well.

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Let's solve the problem.

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Kevin: Yes.

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It's, it's a new angle on a bridge
scene is to turn it into a classroom.

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And it worked so well.

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When she, when she, you know, slipped
out of, okay, I need to be hands on

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because this is a crisis to, it's
still a crisis, but we've got the time.

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So I'm gonna start teaching again.

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I'm gonna start asking questions.

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What do you think?

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You tell me.

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This is your final exam.

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Either you pass and everyone goes
home, or you fail and we all die.

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You know, all of that stuff
was just so delightful.

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Rob: It was the perfect bookend to what
we got in the first episode where the,

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you know, where we were introduced to
this crew that we've never seen again,

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00:13:27,579 --> 00:13:31,689
but, um, they were thrown into the thrust
of the situation even before they had

222
00:13:31,689 --> 00:13:36,429
started their, their training and now
to have the end of the season, they're

223
00:13:36,429 --> 00:13:40,509
in a similar situation but at higher
stakes and they are now fulfilling

224
00:13:40,509 --> 00:13:45,096
the roles, and kind of shaping where
they will go in what branch of the

225
00:13:45,096 --> 00:13:47,316
Federation they will go into in Starfleet.

226
00:13:47,989 --> 00:13:48,349
Kevin: Yeah.

227
00:13:49,009 --> 00:13:53,389
Uh, I liked watching her manage Caleb,
like she was kind of taking stock

228
00:13:53,389 --> 00:13:55,576
of Okay, you know, I've got Genesis.

229
00:13:55,576 --> 00:13:58,126
She's probably reliable enough
to put in the command chair,

230
00:13:58,126 --> 00:13:59,566
even if she does have to pee.

231
00:13:59,896 --> 00:14:04,876
I've got, uh, I've got Darem, who,
as long as we can get him to stop

232
00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:10,036
speeding, he, he can run the ship
and, and Caleb is the most volatile.

233
00:14:10,036 --> 00:14:12,286
He's the one, like second
guessing everything.

234
00:14:12,286 --> 00:14:17,416
So when she has to go and fix the
Warp core, she says, you're with me.

235
00:14:17,416 --> 00:14:21,226
And you can see her going, you're the
one I can't leave alone on this bridge.

236
00:14:21,226 --> 00:14:25,246
So you're coming with me and I'm gonna
trust the rest of these cadets to, to

237
00:14:25,246 --> 00:14:27,466
not burn the place down while I'm gone.

238
00:14:27,826 --> 00:14:28,246
Yeah.

239
00:14:28,486 --> 00:14:29,476
Just so good.

240
00:14:30,528 --> 00:14:34,608
Rob: And grateful, great moment that
we come back to, uh, really rewarded.

241
00:14:34,788 --> 00:14:39,468
So with their first interaction together,
you know, Jett asks him, who are you?

242
00:14:39,468 --> 00:14:41,058
And he goes, now that's your name.

243
00:14:41,058 --> 00:14:41,538
Who are you?

244
00:14:41,538 --> 00:14:41,988
Really?

245
00:14:42,018 --> 00:14:43,698
I don't know who you are.

246
00:14:43,938 --> 00:14:48,138
And to go finally with him talking
about why he didn't abandon his friends,

247
00:14:48,166 --> 00:14:51,646
Kevin: Such a delight that they had
the time to do those, like plant

248
00:14:51,646 --> 00:14:54,856
those seeds earlier in the season
to pay off here in the finale.

249
00:14:54,856 --> 00:14:59,446
It feels like so many other Star
Trek seasons recently have been a mad

250
00:14:59,446 --> 00:15:03,466
dash to the finish line, so that they
were writing the last episodes after

251
00:15:03,496 --> 00:15:05,386
the, the first episodes were filmed.

252
00:15:05,386 --> 00:15:10,876
And so they didn't have that luxury to,
to do those, those plants and payoffs.

253
00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:12,046
But uh, they did it here.

254
00:15:12,046 --> 00:15:12,676
It was awesome.

255
00:15:12,706 --> 00:15:17,086
I heard, um, in an interview, Alex
Kurtzman was saying that this final

256
00:15:17,086 --> 00:15:22,846
episode was one that, uh, when, when
they were coming up to it, they decided

257
00:15:22,846 --> 00:15:26,631
it wasn't working as well on the page
as they quite liked, and they, they

258
00:15:26,636 --> 00:15:30,946
kind of pulled the episode apart and did
surgery on it and changed the structure.

259
00:15:31,246 --> 00:15:34,756
The, the main beats, the actual
story stayed the same, but they

260
00:15:34,756 --> 00:15:38,026
restructured the episode in a big way.

261
00:15:38,026 --> 00:15:40,846
And I, I, I don't know what
the before looks like, but

262
00:15:40,846 --> 00:15:42,196
the after looked great to me.

263
00:15:43,053 --> 00:15:44,733
Rob: Very much so, very much so.

264
00:15:44,733 --> 00:15:46,623
Whatever they did, they
did excellent work.

265
00:15:46,623 --> 00:15:51,123
It's one of the best season
finales I've seen in a, in a TV

266
00:15:51,123 --> 00:15:55,203
show in, in a, in a long time,
especially in the Star Trek world.

267
00:15:55,593 --> 00:15:57,723
Um, and in genre based television.

268
00:15:57,873 --> 00:16:02,763
Um, there's been a expectation of how
a season finale is shaped and what

269
00:16:02,763 --> 00:16:08,253
is expected and how you're meant to,
you know, finish off your, your arc.

270
00:16:08,253 --> 00:16:13,263
And especially with a reduced amount
of episodes in a season, it becomes

271
00:16:13,533 --> 00:16:15,363
more about what can you cram in there.

272
00:16:15,423 --> 00:16:20,028
But this was a coherent, um,
conclusion, which I found really good.

273
00:16:20,058 --> 00:16:21,588
Everything was given enough time.

274
00:16:21,738 --> 00:16:25,488
The pace was still really strong,
and all those things that tied in

275
00:16:25,488 --> 00:16:27,288
from previous episodes came back.

276
00:16:27,348 --> 00:16:32,808
It was a nice clarification with SAM
and Genesis really rushed tension,

277
00:16:33,168 --> 00:16:36,768
um, to find that time to clarify it.

278
00:16:36,798 --> 00:16:42,738
It didn't excuse the fact it was
probably rushed a, a, a a lot, but it

279
00:16:42,738 --> 00:16:47,388
was, they took the time in that moment
to, to balance it out, which I loved.

280
00:16:47,583 --> 00:16:50,613
Kevin: Going back to the bridge,
this episode, I don't know if it's

281
00:16:50,613 --> 00:16:53,463
been present in previous ones, but I
noticed it for the first time in this

282
00:16:53,463 --> 00:16:58,443
episode, the Athena Bridge is a step
up from bridges we've seen even through

283
00:16:58,443 --> 00:17:00,213
Discovery and Strange New Worlds.

284
00:17:00,543 --> 00:17:05,493
The four walls, the back front
and sides are all giant screens.

285
00:17:05,493 --> 00:17:09,543
They're actually matrices
of big, uh, LED panels.

286
00:17:09,543 --> 00:17:13,593
So when they, there were several moments
in this episode where they were right near

287
00:17:13,593 --> 00:17:18,423
the screen doing work, and you could see
a conspicuous like vertical black line

288
00:17:18,423 --> 00:17:23,103
and horizontal black line dividing it
into multiple screens, which I guess is,

289
00:17:23,643 --> 00:17:27,843
I think I remarked on that in a Strange
New Worlds episode recently as well, the

290
00:17:27,843 --> 00:17:31,203
big screen that they have at the back
of the conference room in Strange New

291
00:17:31,203 --> 00:17:36,573
Worlds is likewise, it's too big for one
screen, and so they've had to like knit

292
00:17:36,573 --> 00:17:40,563
it together with two screens, and the
seam between them is a visible black line.

293
00:17:40,773 --> 00:17:42,303
So that's a shame that that's there.

294
00:17:42,303 --> 00:17:46,743
But I guess, you know, it's,
it's 21st century practicality.

295
00:17:46,803 --> 00:17:52,143
But um, the fact that those
four walls are big screens,

296
00:17:52,683 --> 00:17:54,543
when the ship was taking a hit.

297
00:17:55,233 --> 00:17:58,263
And the wall, the entire
wall glitched out.

298
00:17:58,833 --> 00:18:02,883
That is something I realized we've
never really seen before in, we're

299
00:18:02,883 --> 00:18:08,313
used to seeing consoles explode and
sparks flying, but the actual graphics

300
00:18:08,313 --> 00:18:12,213
on the screen glitching out and
responding when the ship is taking

301
00:18:12,213 --> 00:18:14,703
damage feels like a new element to me.

302
00:18:14,703 --> 00:18:16,473
And it feels, it works so well.

303
00:18:16,473 --> 00:18:17,493
It feels so obvious.

304
00:18:17,493 --> 00:18:21,033
They all, you know, the cast all throws
themselves sideways and at the same

305
00:18:21,033 --> 00:18:25,653
moment, the screens in the background
static out and it, it looked so great.

306
00:18:26,073 --> 00:18:30,843
Um, and, and felt, felt like
a, a new height to the, um, to

307
00:18:30,843 --> 00:18:34,263
the battle on the bridge sort
of scenario that we hadn't seen

308
00:18:34,354 --> 00:18:34,954
Rob: Agreed.

309
00:18:35,884 --> 00:18:37,054
Agreed, definitely.

310
00:18:37,833 --> 00:18:41,883
Kevin: Uh, what did you think
of, um, of the Doctor faking the

311
00:18:41,883 --> 00:18:44,343
destruction of the Athena saucer?

312
00:18:44,568 --> 00:18:50,441
Rob: Yeah, a little bit, sciencey,
gobbeldy-gookey, but, uh, inspired idea of

313
00:18:50,441 --> 00:18:55,751
incorporating him into the ship's computer
using his old, seeing his old, uh,

314
00:18:56,141 --> 00:18:59,739
Kevin: Yeah, the old mobile emitter, that
he keeps in his inside pocket, apparently.

315
00:18:59,919 --> 00:19:04,629
It's unclear whether he is projecting
himself from it at all times still, or if

316
00:19:04,629 --> 00:19:06,879
he's keeping it for sentimental reasons.

317
00:19:07,149 --> 00:19:10,179
And if the latter, I'm not sure
why he needed to hand it over

318
00:19:10,179 --> 00:19:11,709
in order to make this plot work.

319
00:19:11,709 --> 00:19:15,119
So I gather he is still projecting
himself from this mobile

320
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:16,319
emitter after all these years.

321
00:19:16,651 --> 00:19:17,341
Rob: Yeah.

322
00:19:17,431 --> 00:19:21,331
Um, and then of course the effects of that
caused him to speak absolute gibberish.

323
00:19:21,631 --> 00:19:25,771
But I thought it was a, a clever idea
when you're in that situation that the

324
00:19:25,771 --> 00:19:29,371
only way to to hide is to use an illusion.

325
00:19:30,089 --> 00:19:32,909
Kevin: They called it
training mission Hermes 19.

326
00:19:32,939 --> 00:19:37,379
And I like the, I like the idea that
the ship has these training missions

327
00:19:37,379 --> 00:19:39,209
and training scenarios built into it.

328
00:19:39,419 --> 00:19:43,889
That is a clever, delightful idea, but
it never quite worked, this season.

329
00:19:43,889 --> 00:19:47,249
They've done it a few different times of
we're gonna, we're gonna activate training

330
00:19:47,249 --> 00:19:53,819
mission X, and it's never been quite clear
in a, in an actual teaching scenario, what

331
00:19:53,819 --> 00:19:56,159
is the function of this training mission?

332
00:19:56,219 --> 00:19:59,909
This training mission apparently
is the Doctor hands over his

333
00:19:59,909 --> 00:20:03,689
mobile emitter and fakes the
explosion of the ship you are on.

334
00:20:04,199 --> 00:20:08,189
I don't, I don't know how that could
be a training mission normally.

335
00:20:08,911 --> 00:20:10,216
Rob: It is very specific.

336
00:20:10,216 --> 00:20:13,156
I mean, it was a little bit
Kobayashi Maru, so maybe the

337
00:20:13,156 --> 00:20:16,006
Doctor's run that program and
this is what he's come up with.

338
00:20:16,006 --> 00:20:16,606
But yeah,

339
00:20:16,679 --> 00:20:16,949
Kevin: Yeah.

340
00:20:17,249 --> 00:20:18,389
Uh, it fun anyway.

341
00:20:18,389 --> 00:20:21,989
And the fact that it was, you know,
used as the title card, that, that

342
00:20:21,989 --> 00:20:26,939
moment of like Starfleet Academy
as we're pushing in on the debris

343
00:20:26,939 --> 00:20:33,239
and then through the debris to the
survived, um, the, the survived saucer.

344
00:20:33,509 --> 00:20:38,129
It was, um, I guess yes, distracting
enough that at least on first

345
00:20:38,129 --> 00:20:39,449
viewing, it made me go, wow.

346
00:20:39,449 --> 00:20:43,559
On second viewing it made me go, wow, that
doesn't quite make sense, but that's okay.

347
00:20:45,526 --> 00:20:48,931
Rob: Yeah, it is that element excused
in, um, modern Doctor Who written

348
00:20:48,931 --> 00:20:50,561
by the great, uh, Stephen Moffat.

349
00:20:50,581 --> 00:20:54,061
Sometimes you have a justification
said really, really quickly and

350
00:20:54,061 --> 00:20:55,861
really convincingly and you believe it

351
00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:57,089
Kevin: It'll get by once.

352
00:20:57,089 --> 00:20:57,269
Yeah.

353
00:20:57,826 --> 00:20:58,276
Rob: Yeah.

354
00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:00,736
And then it's sort of like the
morning after you wake up going,

355
00:21:00,736 --> 00:21:02,386
what, what, what was I doing?

356
00:21:02,386 --> 00:21:04,156
Why did I, why did I believe all

357
00:21:04,394 --> 00:21:07,694
Kevin: That's definitely an element
of modern, modern sci-fi is like,

358
00:21:07,694 --> 00:21:12,164
if the audience is, is second
guessing your explanations, you,

359
00:21:12,434 --> 00:21:13,814
you probably don't have them.

360
00:21:14,234 --> 00:21:15,764
So, uh, Yeah.

361
00:21:15,974 --> 00:21:17,774
There, there's probably another problem.

362
00:21:17,804 --> 00:21:20,024
It's not that your explanation
isn't good enough, it's that

363
00:21:20,024 --> 00:21:21,824
the audience is, is wondering.

364
00:21:22,784 --> 00:21:23,144
Hmm.

365
00:21:23,324 --> 00:21:27,464
The, the Doctor came out of the thing
immediately glitching with the rubin

366
00:21:27,524 --> 00:21:32,144
and the glue and uh, like that's another
one that on second viewing, he, he came

367
00:21:32,144 --> 00:21:36,614
out of the computer immediately talking
about rubin and glue, which to me is, I

368
00:21:36,614 --> 00:21:43,034
guess him attempting to explain the plan
to stabilize the Omega 47 molecules.

369
00:21:43,034 --> 00:21:47,444
So, um, the, it, it's, it's like
that's something that he came

370
00:21:47,444 --> 00:21:49,034
up with inside the computer.

371
00:21:49,274 --> 00:21:55,034
Earlier in the, in that segment,
Vance and Thok were on the comm.

372
00:21:55,304 --> 00:21:56,654
They were talking from the Federation.

373
00:21:56,654 --> 00:22:02,054
They said they would transmit all of the
information about the Omega 47, including

374
00:22:02,264 --> 00:22:06,584
the top secret stuff to the Athena,
and that was never dealt with again.

375
00:22:06,584 --> 00:22:10,574
So I guess what is there to be made
sense of, at least for me, is that

376
00:22:10,964 --> 00:22:15,524
that data went into the computer where
the Doctor was at the time, and he had

377
00:22:15,524 --> 00:22:16,874
a look at it while he was in there.

378
00:22:16,874 --> 00:22:20,484
And that's why he came out immediately
talking about Rubin particles and gluons.

379
00:22:22,716 --> 00:22:25,126
Rob: Look you, you justify
it better than they do.

380
00:22:28,589 --> 00:22:34,409
Kevin: Uh, I, uh, I also liked that
Nus Braka seems throughout the season,

381
00:22:34,409 --> 00:22:41,519
and especially here to be conspicuously
fluent in human or Earth history.

382
00:22:42,029 --> 00:22:46,439
The, the wall at the back of the atrium,
one of the big pieces of graffiti they've

383
00:22:46,439 --> 00:22:49,709
put there is Veni, vidi, vici, Venari.

384
00:22:50,459 --> 00:22:57,569
So, you know, the, they, saw conquered,
uh, um, saying from Earth history.

385
00:22:57,989 --> 00:23:04,199
And he talks about, he says, oh, uh, yeah,
to, to Caleb's mother, he says, you're

386
00:23:04,199 --> 00:23:07,343
like Lazarus except small and a girl.

387
00:23:07,463 --> 00:23:12,173
And so this reference to a biblical
figure, it it, these things, the

388
00:23:12,173 --> 00:23:17,423
tic-tac toe of it, of it, all the,
these elements of like, for one reason

389
00:23:17,423 --> 00:23:23,818
or another, either Braka himself, or
his family or his planet was really

390
00:23:23,818 --> 00:23:28,288
fluent in human history and culture.

391
00:23:28,738 --> 00:23:34,198
And I wonder what that says about the
galaxy in Star Trek, or I wonder what

392
00:23:34,198 --> 00:23:39,928
it says about Nus himself, that was he
obsessed with the Federation, what I took

393
00:23:39,928 --> 00:23:44,548
from him and started to learn these things
about it, that he then incorporates it

394
00:23:44,548 --> 00:23:47,128
in, into his, his madness, if you will.

395
00:23:47,458 --> 00:23:51,838
But, uh, yeah, interesting stuff that
he is, he is definitely not human.

396
00:23:51,988 --> 00:23:54,638
He's famously half
Klingon, half Tellarite.

397
00:23:54,778 --> 00:24:01,858
And uh, and yet he communicates so many
of his ideas through human history.

398
00:24:02,099 --> 00:24:02,669
Rob: Most definitely.

399
00:24:02,669 --> 00:24:02,939
Yeah.

400
00:24:02,939 --> 00:24:08,429
Um, I mean, that could be broken down
as like a lot of justification needed

401
00:24:08,429 --> 00:24:13,229
to be done that, uh, a reference like
that, so specific to Earth can be done,

402
00:24:13,229 --> 00:24:17,069
but get yourself caught up in the,
the beauty and the moment of it all.

403
00:24:17,133 --> 00:24:17,343
Kevin: Yeah.

404
00:24:17,613 --> 00:24:19,203
I, don't it's unexplainable.

405
00:24:19,203 --> 00:24:24,483
I think it, it, it, it offers
up something unexplained for

406
00:24:24,483 --> 00:24:27,213
the audience to find meaning in.

407
00:24:27,693 --> 00:24:32,373
And I think you you could either see
it as part of Nus Braka's story, a

408
00:24:32,403 --> 00:24:37,653
personal story or part of a Galaxy
story, that the human culture has gone

409
00:24:37,653 --> 00:24:42,303
to the stars in such a big way that
even aliens are familiar with these

410
00:24:42,303 --> 00:24:45,153
figures from Earth history and mythology.

411
00:24:45,904 --> 00:24:47,314
Rob: Definitely, definitely.

412
00:24:47,623 --> 00:24:52,953
Kevin: Caleb and Tarima made up on the
bridge with with their, yellow flowers.

413
00:24:52,983 --> 00:24:53,913
How did that work for you?

414
00:24:54,634 --> 00:24:56,524
Rob: Um, it, it, it was good.

415
00:24:56,524 --> 00:25:02,494
Caleb has really grown on me and this
episode in particular, having him so

416
00:25:02,494 --> 00:25:08,134
vulnerable and I like the fact that
he's, yeah, no one should really be

417
00:25:08,134 --> 00:25:11,824
categorized, you know, pigeonholed or
categorized into a cer a certain hole.

418
00:25:11,824 --> 00:25:16,384
But because Caleb has kind
of been, he knows everything.

419
00:25:16,384 --> 00:25:19,174
If there's any problem, he
goes, I got this, I got this.

420
00:25:19,294 --> 00:25:22,354
To get to that point in this episode,
it was actually justifiable to

421
00:25:22,354 --> 00:25:27,724
go, Genesis is going, you know,
leadership, you know, Reymi is going.

422
00:25:28,309 --> 00:25:34,579
Pilot, you've got, uh, Jay-Den
going, um, medicine and going Caleb,

423
00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:36,679
engineering, I went, this is good.

424
00:25:36,739 --> 00:25:37,279
Okay.

425
00:25:37,593 --> 00:25:37,923
Kevin: Yeah.

426
00:25:37,923 --> 00:25:38,733
They're, they're starting to

427
00:25:38,749 --> 00:25:38,989
Rob: the,

428
00:25:39,003 --> 00:25:39,573
Kevin: little crew.

429
00:25:39,573 --> 00:25:40,023
Yeah.

430
00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:42,409
Rob: they're form forming a
crew and he's finding his place.

431
00:25:42,439 --> 00:25:45,889
'cause he's, you know, purposely
hasn't defined where he wants to

432
00:25:45,889 --> 00:25:47,719
go into, but that makes sense.

433
00:25:47,869 --> 00:25:51,109
That's like Scotty, like Geordi, all that.

434
00:25:51,229 --> 00:25:52,639
Solving problems.

435
00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,809
Finding problems and solutions and
fixing them, uh, worked for me.

436
00:25:56,869 --> 00:26:01,219
And, um, I think the stuff with him
and Tarima was nicely sorted out.

437
00:26:01,219 --> 00:26:05,869
It was a nice moment at the
end where they, you know, work

438
00:26:05,869 --> 00:26:09,636
through their, their broody issues
'cause they're such children.

439
00:26:10,056 --> 00:26:13,926
Um, but to have that final shot at
the end of them, like hanging out as

440
00:26:13,926 --> 00:26:19,836
a as, as a, as a group of friends, uh,
was a nice satisfactory justification

441
00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:24,291
for that relationship that's had
more time than most relationships.

442
00:26:24,441 --> 00:26:25,641
Uh, especially in the middle.

443
00:26:25,821 --> 00:26:28,011
Most in the middle,
they've lost a lot of time.

444
00:26:28,011 --> 00:26:33,491
So to make up for that, um, and to find
that justification for me was quite good.

445
00:26:33,561 --> 00:26:36,321
And she found her strength,
Tarima, which I really appreciated.

446
00:26:36,561 --> 00:26:42,381
It wasn't that case of I'm too powerful,
just a case of no, I'm, I'm, me and

447
00:26:42,381 --> 00:26:46,731
I, I've got this skill, this ability,
and I need to be able to control it,

448
00:26:46,731 --> 00:26:49,221
like all of us have and abilities.

449
00:26:49,684 --> 00:26:55,294
Kevin: The, um, using her powers to, to
find Caleb's mother was a reminiscent

450
00:26:55,294 --> 00:27:00,964
of the, the Star Trek Nemesis moment
where Troi's is, is using, like she's

451
00:27:00,964 --> 00:27:05,164
holding, I think it's Worf's hands
over the targeting console while

452
00:27:05,164 --> 00:27:11,424
she finds the, the, uh, cloaked,
um, ship of the baddies in that one.

453
00:27:11,484 --> 00:27:11,784
Yeah.

454
00:27:11,844 --> 00:27:16,314
That not the first time, Betazoids
have been able to pin down coordinates

455
00:27:16,314 --> 00:27:18,204
with their, with their abilities.

456
00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:23,679
Rob: Their abilities are limitedly defined
enough so they things like that, that

457
00:27:23,679 --> 00:27:25,959
double doesn't come across as pure magic.

458
00:27:26,048 --> 00:27:26,588
Kevin: Yeah.

459
00:27:26,811 --> 00:27:31,101
Enjoyed the, uh, the Star there,
there is no Starfleet anthem, but

460
00:27:31,101 --> 00:27:32,811
what a good suggestion, was fun.

461
00:27:35,661 --> 00:27:41,271
And the fact that, um, Federation weapons
are famously good guy colors of blue

462
00:27:41,271 --> 00:27:46,176
and green, rather than red, being made
a plot point was delightful as well.

463
00:27:47,273 --> 00:27:49,313
Rob: That was, yeah, really, really good.

464
00:27:49,433 --> 00:27:52,763
That was like the justification of it
from a science point of view of what,

465
00:27:53,363 --> 00:27:55,403
what gas is emitted, oh it's red.

466
00:27:55,493 --> 00:27:56,633
Okay, cool, cool, cool.

467
00:27:56,633 --> 00:27:57,473
And what do we use?

468
00:27:57,473 --> 00:27:58,523
We've never used red.

469
00:27:58,733 --> 00:28:04,343
It was a mix of, you know, scientific
justification and then, you know, logic

470
00:28:04,343 --> 00:28:06,333
and canon of, you know, Star Trek lore.

471
00:28:07,343 --> 00:28:09,203
Um, yeah.

472
00:28:09,233 --> 00:28:13,463
Satisfying ending, and then a lovely
little knot at the end with, uh, as

473
00:28:13,463 --> 00:28:20,843
the cast list uh, rolled, uh, having
photos, uh, of them all as, uh, as be is

474
00:28:21,246 --> 00:28:26,076
Kevin: Yeah, class of 3096, I think it
said, which is that that's not quite

475
00:28:26,076 --> 00:28:29,856
how a graduating class works, that you
don't get to be a graduating class for

476
00:28:29,856 --> 00:28:31,566
graduating the first year of something.

477
00:28:32,106 --> 00:28:34,296
It was, it was fun to
go along with anyway.

478
00:28:34,296 --> 00:28:37,626
And it definitely worth pausing and
reading those things, though they are,

479
00:28:37,656 --> 00:28:39,706
they're kind of messages from the cast.

480
00:28:40,176 --> 00:28:40,626
It was fun.

481
00:28:40,776 --> 00:28:44,676
Tig's says, why did I, why
was I after the two voices?

482
00:28:44,676 --> 00:28:48,906
Because there's the ship's computer and
there's the Digital Dean, and then there's

483
00:28:49,133 --> 00:28:49,433
Rob: that,

484
00:28:49,446 --> 00:28:50,286
Kevin: Tig Notaro.

485
00:28:52,613 --> 00:28:54,953
Rob: And hers is notoriously the oh, hers.

486
00:28:55,013 --> 00:29:00,563
And, um, Vance's photos were notoriously
the eldest of the, young pictures.

487
00:29:00,929 --> 00:29:04,019
Kevin: Well, anything else you wanna
talk about in this season finale, Rob?

488
00:29:04,651 --> 00:29:06,871
Rob: Well, this is, well for
me, I, I thought it was a great,

489
00:29:06,871 --> 00:29:11,341
it's one of the most solid season
finales of modern Trek, definitely.

490
00:29:11,534 --> 00:29:12,839
Kevin: Yeah, not just a finale.

491
00:29:12,839 --> 00:29:15,899
I felt like the season
overall was remarkably solid.

492
00:29:15,899 --> 00:29:22,829
There was one shaky episode in a 10
episode season, and there were, there

493
00:29:22,829 --> 00:29:25,349
were things I liked in that shaky episode.

494
00:29:25,469 --> 00:29:29,519
Um, so, wow, like amazing
quality, I felt like.

495
00:29:30,099 --> 00:29:33,449
At a time where, I think we were
all going into a new Star Trek

496
00:29:33,449 --> 00:29:35,879
series going, here we go again.

497
00:29:35,879 --> 00:29:37,349
It's another season one.

498
00:29:37,349 --> 00:29:40,559
They're gonna take a while to
find their feet and figure it out.

499
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:45,209
And do I have time for, uh, you
know, a YA version of Star Trek

500
00:29:45,209 --> 00:29:46,649
that might not be written for me?

501
00:29:47,159 --> 00:29:52,664
I was sucked in despite myself and, and
delighted and surprised at every turn.

502
00:29:53,971 --> 00:29:57,391
Rob: It is definitely been, yeah, for
me, I've, I've enjoyed this experience

503
00:29:57,391 --> 00:30:00,331
and I've enjoyed this ride and it's
definitely up there as one of the stronger

504
00:30:00,601 --> 00:30:06,301
of, uh, the modern Star, Star Trek series
and of some of the even classic stuff.

505
00:30:06,541 --> 00:30:14,221
Um, and it's a shame it's, uh, it's been
so, yeah, but everything at the moment

506
00:30:14,221 --> 00:30:19,381
with pop culture is so dividing just with
connected with everything in society, but

507
00:30:19,381 --> 00:30:23,131
I think there's enough positives there
that I hope it will work its way through.

508
00:30:23,131 --> 00:30:28,201
It just won't get defined by the
review bombing and the negativity.

509
00:30:28,201 --> 00:30:30,451
There's a lot in there
to be positive about.

510
00:30:30,944 --> 00:30:31,814
Kevin: I hope so.

511
00:30:31,814 --> 00:30:37,934
I've, I've, you know, much as we like
to find our critiques in these, in these

512
00:30:38,084 --> 00:30:43,574
podcasts that we do, I've always come
at Star Trek in its modern incarnation

513
00:30:43,574 --> 00:30:46,484
from a, like find the good perspective.

514
00:30:46,484 --> 00:30:48,854
Because I'm a, I'm a Star Trek fan here.

515
00:30:48,854 --> 00:30:52,034
I'm not here to tear it down,
I'm here to find what I enjoy

516
00:30:52,034 --> 00:30:53,384
and revel in that part of it.

517
00:30:53,834 --> 00:30:57,674
But Starfleet Academy is
stronger than any, any Star

518
00:30:57,674 --> 00:30:59,534
Trek series in recent memory.

519
00:30:59,684 --> 00:31:03,104
And, and I feel like you don't
have to go looking for the

520
00:31:03,104 --> 00:31:05,414
good it, it will come for you.

521
00:31:05,594 --> 00:31:09,074
And if you're choosing to plant
your feet and go, this is not good.

522
00:31:09,104 --> 00:31:13,274
I think you are, you
are looking for the bad.

523
00:31:14,281 --> 00:31:14,701
Rob: Agreed.

524
00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:15,501
Agreed.

525
00:31:15,501 --> 00:31:17,941
There's a lot of positive in here and, um,

526
00:31:18,614 --> 00:31:19,454
Kevin: I love this so much.

527
00:31:19,454 --> 00:31:20,294
I these characters.

528
00:31:20,294 --> 00:31:21,764
I can't wait to see them again.

529
00:31:21,764 --> 00:31:23,114
I miss them already.

530
00:31:23,114 --> 00:31:24,704
The hiatus is gonna hurt.

531
00:31:25,786 --> 00:31:27,856
Rob: Yeah, big long Wait, I
don't think we'll get it till

532
00:31:27,856 --> 00:31:28,906
probably early next year.

533
00:31:28,966 --> 00:31:29,206
Just

534
00:31:29,294 --> 00:31:30,044
Kevin: Yeah.

535
00:31:30,614 --> 00:31:32,598
Well, it'll be worth the wait, Rob.

536
00:31:33,463 --> 00:31:34,183
Rob: I think so.

537
00:31:34,273 --> 00:31:34,753
I think so.

538
00:31:34,753 --> 00:31:39,331
And now they, they've got that, you
know, that, uh, freshman season out

539
00:31:39,331 --> 00:31:43,291
of the way, now they can move to
a more sophomore type, uh, level.

540
00:31:43,291 --> 00:31:44,971
I hope I'm using the right terminology.

541
00:31:44,971 --> 00:31:46,111
I'm being very, very,

542
00:31:46,454 --> 00:31:49,424
Kevin: I didn't go to college
in the US either, so don't

543
00:31:49,424 --> 00:31:51,284
look to for me to correct you.

544
00:31:51,691 --> 00:31:52,171
Rob: Yeah.

545
00:31:52,171 --> 00:31:54,811
I'm referring a lot to stuff
that I'm trying to remember

546
00:31:54,811 --> 00:31:56,431
from movies and TV shows.

547
00:31:57,301 --> 00:32:00,601
Uh, but yes, our second season will
definitely mean everything's a lot

548
00:32:00,601 --> 00:32:03,781
more stable now we know the characters
and they can just get on with it.

549
00:32:05,264 --> 00:32:11,954
Kevin: Well this episode was the biggest
outing for our character of Anisha

550
00:32:11,964 --> 00:32:18,224
Mir, the mother of Caleb, and it got
us thinking of other prominent motherly

551
00:32:18,224 --> 00:32:24,794
figures in Star Trek and uh, uh, I had
a busy week, so I picked one to focus on

552
00:32:24,794 --> 00:32:27,464
and have a single episode to talk about.

553
00:32:27,464 --> 00:32:28,814
Rob, what have you got?

554
00:32:29,556 --> 00:32:29,716
Rob: Yeah.

555
00:32:29,746 --> 00:32:31,291
I've got a single episode as well.

556
00:32:31,291 --> 00:32:36,106
I was looking at, you know, characters
more from an, uh, you know, as a, as,

557
00:32:36,106 --> 00:32:37,786
as a mother, as a whole character.

558
00:32:37,786 --> 00:32:43,336
But I did find one episode particular
that quite, uh, crucial for a mother.

559
00:32:43,366 --> 00:32:46,726
'cause there's stuff like, you know,
how does Spock's mother play into this?

560
00:32:46,726 --> 00:32:49,456
Like, with her appearance in
the original series and then the

561
00:32:49,456 --> 00:32:52,476
actress coming back in Voyage Home.

562
00:32:52,866 --> 00:32:53,816
Kevin: Amanda Grayson!

563
00:32:54,006 --> 00:32:54,516
Rob: Yeah.

564
00:32:54,516 --> 00:32:58,596
Got, um, Beverly Crusher and then
how Spock's mum has been treated in

565
00:32:58,896 --> 00:33:00,284
other incarnations, like the Kelvin

566
00:33:00,334 --> 00:33:03,904
Kevin: Beverly Crusher, uh, it has
been pointed out to me this week,

567
00:33:03,904 --> 00:33:09,114
is the only like main cast member
who was a mother in the story.

568
00:33:10,489 --> 00:33:14,599
Rob: Um, we've spent, uh, many
episodes discussing like, uh, Benjamin

569
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:19,129
Sisko as a father and his role as
a son as well, and a, and, and the

570
00:33:19,129 --> 00:33:21,709
Sisko clan as the three Sisko boys.

571
00:33:22,069 --> 00:33:22,609
Um.

572
00:33:23,014 --> 00:33:26,224
But, uh, yeah, to see how
mothers are perceived.

573
00:33:26,224 --> 00:33:30,754
And there's also Lwaxana, but my,
my most prominent episodes of her

574
00:33:30,754 --> 00:33:33,244
when she's there as her as herself.

575
00:33:33,274 --> 00:33:35,254
So we don't see her
really as a mother figure.

576
00:33:35,254 --> 00:33:37,024
We see her as a confidant with Odo.

577
00:33:37,504 --> 00:33:39,824
Um, uh, there's also Moogie.

578
00:33:39,964 --> 00:33:42,454
I was looking at possibly
a Moogie episode.

579
00:33:42,813 --> 00:33:43,233
Kevin: Lovely.

580
00:33:43,474 --> 00:33:49,804
Rob: I, I love her relationship with,
uh, with Quark and how that evolved over

581
00:33:49,804 --> 00:33:53,434
all her appearances, even though they had
original one actress in the first episode,

582
00:33:53,434 --> 00:33:56,244
and then they changed it to the actress
who we all know and love as Moogie.

583
00:33:57,124 --> 00:34:02,524
Um, but yes, I found a, a
different, uh, episode to rest on.

584
00:34:02,524 --> 00:34:03,184
So how about you?

585
00:34:04,113 --> 00:34:06,723
Kevin: Well, I chose one of
the ones you just listed.

586
00:34:07,383 --> 00:34:13,563
Um, so I will jump in because this is
the Next Generation Season seven episode

587
00:34:13,563 --> 00:34:20,163
seven, Dark Page, which is a Lwaxana Troi
episode that is overlooked and forgotten.

588
00:34:20,338 --> 00:34:22,323
Rob: We have not spoken about
this one, I don't think.

589
00:34:22,766 --> 00:34:30,056
Kevin: No, this is, this is for me
Lwaxana Troi's most motherly episode,

590
00:34:30,866 --> 00:34:39,296
where it goes beyond the, the kind of
playful japes of Troi's and Lwaxana and

591
00:34:39,476 --> 00:34:41,646
Riker and Lwaxana and Picard and Lwaxana.

592
00:34:41,876 --> 00:34:45,986
And they, those have all occurred during
the course of The Next Generation,

593
00:34:45,986 --> 00:34:50,756
but here in early season seven, they
are playing on top of that platform.

594
00:34:51,326 --> 00:34:57,356
The opening log entry by the captain
says, we are here hosting the delegation

595
00:34:57,386 --> 00:35:00,206
of this telepathic race called the Cairn.

596
00:35:00,566 --> 00:35:06,716
They are learning to communicate
verbally as part of their efforts

597
00:35:06,716 --> 00:35:11,276
to join the Federation, and they
are being taught by an old friend.

598
00:35:11,336 --> 00:35:17,606
And then it cuts to Lwaxana Troi's in, uh,
Ten Forward at the reception, making, uh,

599
00:35:17,636 --> 00:35:20,336
making a spectacle of herself as always.

600
00:35:20,908 --> 00:35:21,808
Rob: As we'd expect.

601
00:35:21,838 --> 00:35:25,948
Um, was this her final appearance
in the, in the regular series?

602
00:35:26,126 --> 00:35:27,746
Kevin: I would not be surprised.

603
00:35:28,496 --> 00:35:33,266
Would not be surprised if, well, this
is season seven of TNG, I wonder, did we

604
00:35:33,266 --> 00:35:35,426
see her in Deep Space Nine before this?

605
00:35:35,786 --> 00:35:39,906
Uh, I guess we could leave that
as an exercise to the viewer,

606
00:35:40,204 --> 00:35:44,164
Rob: She definitely did do a season
one episode of, uh, Deep Space Nine.

607
00:35:44,164 --> 00:35:44,494
That's one

608
00:35:44,612 --> 00:35:45,422
Kevin: Oh, well there we go.

609
00:35:45,422 --> 00:35:47,952
That might have been during
season six of TNG then.

610
00:35:48,424 --> 00:35:48,994
Rob: Yeah.

611
00:35:49,315 --> 00:35:54,385
Kevin: This, this one here starts
out Lwaxana as usual, but then

612
00:35:54,385 --> 00:35:58,585
they subvert that as she starts
to show some vulnerability.

613
00:35:58,765 --> 00:36:02,875
She's working with these telepaths who
have never communicated with anyone

614
00:36:02,875 --> 00:36:07,405
outside of their race before, so, and
she talks about the fact that when they

615
00:36:07,405 --> 00:36:12,235
communicate it is just a, a barrage of
images that come at you all at once.

616
00:36:12,685 --> 00:36:15,925
Uh, and that, that that is tiring for her.

617
00:36:15,925 --> 00:36:22,435
And she starts to show signs of headaches
and fatigue, and she stops, like just

618
00:36:22,435 --> 00:36:27,025
in the middle of a conversation with
Troi, she kind of stops and hugs Troi and

619
00:36:27,025 --> 00:36:29,485
says, oh, you're my most precious child.

620
00:36:29,665 --> 00:36:32,305
What would I do if anything
ever happened to you?

621
00:36:32,665 --> 00:36:34,825
And it's just like,
where did that come from?

622
00:36:35,062 --> 00:36:35,352
Rob: Yeah.

623
00:36:36,655 --> 00:36:43,225
Kevin: Pretty soon, um, things go
sideways when one of the children of the

624
00:36:43,225 --> 00:36:50,455
delegation, who is played by, uh, by a,
a tiny Kirsten Dunst in one of, one of,

625
00:36:50,455 --> 00:36:57,495
if not her first on-screen roles, um,
she plays the alien little girl, Hedril.

626
00:36:57,895 --> 00:37:02,125
She slips on a rock in the ship's
arboretum and falls into some water.

627
00:37:02,125 --> 00:37:07,435
And at that moment, um,
Lwaxana Troi goes into a coma.

628
00:37:07,435 --> 00:37:10,945
She passes out on the ground
and cannot be revived.

629
00:37:11,425 --> 00:37:18,040
And then much of the rest of this episode
is Troi and Picard and, and the rest of

630
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:24,040
the crew trying to piece together what has
happened because the aliens say that they

631
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:32,110
suspect the reason that Lwaxana is, um,
in peril is because she keeps something,

632
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:38,560
part of her psyche is dark, it is hidden,
which is something unusual to them.

633
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,330
And they, they go looking, they find, they
dig up her personal logs and find that

634
00:37:43,330 --> 00:37:45,610
seven years of them have been deleted.

635
00:37:46,450 --> 00:37:53,380
And, uh, this was during the time before
Troi was born to just after she was born.

636
00:37:54,805 --> 00:38:01,735
And it comes out that Lwaxana had another
daughter before Troi that, uh, sadly,

637
00:38:01,945 --> 00:38:04,285
uh, died in an accident in the park.

638
00:38:04,285 --> 00:38:08,905
They, the dog got away, she ran after
it fell into the water and drowned.

639
00:38:08,905 --> 00:38:12,415
And the parents did not notice
she was gone because they were

640
00:38:12,415 --> 00:38:14,365
looking after Troi, the new baby.

641
00:38:14,695 --> 00:38:21,145
And, and Lwaxana was racked with guilt
for years and only got passed it by kind

642
00:38:21,145 --> 00:38:26,575
of walling those memories off deleting,
deleting her logs, uh, her journals

643
00:38:26,575 --> 00:38:30,445
of the time, and basically forgetting
that she ever had a first daughter.

644
00:38:30,445 --> 00:38:35,185
And that the, the, the interactions
with the Cairn, this, this race

645
00:38:35,185 --> 00:38:39,625
was, was breaking down that boundary
and, and injuring her psychically.

646
00:38:40,045 --> 00:38:45,505
Um, Troi has to go in, into, this is
another one of those mindscape episodes

647
00:38:45,505 --> 00:38:49,825
where she has to lay on the bed next to
her mother and with the help of the alien

648
00:38:49,855 --> 00:38:55,675
explore her mind and Troi gets to meet
her father inside, uh, Lwaxana's mind.

649
00:38:55,695 --> 00:39:00,685
We never see Alexander, Troi's father,
anywhere else except here in this episode.

650
00:39:01,195 --> 00:39:06,548
Um, and just some beautiful acting
from Majel Barrett-Roddenberry.

651
00:39:06,938 --> 00:39:11,408
The defending her own, like when
Troi finally tracks her down in her

652
00:39:11,408 --> 00:39:15,188
psyche, she kind of comes around a
corner in a hallway of this dream

653
00:39:15,188 --> 00:39:18,548
Enterprise and says, get away from here.

654
00:39:18,548 --> 00:39:23,768
And just like is, is frightening
and, and scares Troi awake out

655
00:39:23,768 --> 00:39:25,988
of this, uh, this, this reverie.

656
00:39:26,108 --> 00:39:27,308
It's amazing stuff.

657
00:39:27,570 --> 00:39:28,650
Rob: Great stuff.

658
00:39:29,113 --> 00:39:33,013
Kevin: They talk about how this episode
sat around for quite a while in the

659
00:39:33,073 --> 00:39:36,853
writer's room and they had a hard
time figuring out A) who would it be?

660
00:39:36,853 --> 00:39:40,603
Would this be a Troi story,
would this be a Crusher story?

661
00:39:40,753 --> 00:39:44,713
Who, who is the person who
is like, has the hidden past?

662
00:39:44,833 --> 00:39:49,313
And the fact they, they eventually
landed on it as a Lwaxana Troi

663
00:39:49,333 --> 00:39:53,983
story, and that made sense with,
with her daughter and all of that.

664
00:39:53,983 --> 00:39:57,883
But even then, they really struggled
to find out what could this dark

665
00:39:57,883 --> 00:40:03,223
secret from her past be that would
not make the character unsympathetic?

666
00:40:03,883 --> 00:40:07,483
What is something that a mother could have
gone through that would be so horrible

667
00:40:07,483 --> 00:40:11,623
that she would hide it from her closest
family, and yet, once we discovered it

668
00:40:11,623 --> 00:40:17,413
as the audience, we would still feel for
the character and sympathize they, they,

669
00:40:17,413 --> 00:40:19,543
threaded the needle here beautifully.

670
00:40:19,543 --> 00:40:24,558
It is, it is difficult to watch in all
the right ways and, um, very touching.

671
00:40:25,890 --> 00:40:26,580
Rob: Excellent.

672
00:40:27,450 --> 00:40:28,260
Wonderful stuff.

673
00:40:29,205 --> 00:40:31,905
And good to focus on, yeah, 'cause
the episodes I was looking at from

674
00:40:31,905 --> 00:40:36,555
Deep Space Nine, where it's her as
a human being, not not as a mother.

675
00:40:36,735 --> 00:40:42,525
So this is a good one that highlights
her connection with, um, with Troi

676
00:40:43,395 --> 00:40:46,455
the sadness within that adds another
level to her, which is great.

677
00:40:46,565 --> 00:40:50,395
Kevin: Um, so yes, her first
daughter, Kestra, which Troi

678
00:40:50,395 --> 00:40:55,285
later, Troi and Riker later named
their, uh, child after as well.

679
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:57,259
Rob: Well, I'm going to Deep Space Nine.

680
00:40:57,379 --> 00:41:03,214
I'm going to season four,
episode 20, Shattered Mirror.

681
00:41:03,842 --> 00:41:04,982
Kevin: Ah.

682
00:41:05,170 --> 00:41:09,485
Rob: We're gonna go check in
with Jennifer, Jennifer Sisko.

683
00:41:09,948 --> 00:41:10,938
Kevin: Of course.

684
00:41:10,938 --> 00:41:12,228
Here we go.

685
00:41:12,468 --> 00:41:14,418
I was like, Mirror Universe?

686
00:41:14,418 --> 00:41:15,528
That's interesting.

687
00:41:15,528 --> 00:41:17,628
Where, where are the mothers
in the mirror universe?

688
00:41:17,628 --> 00:41:19,313
Of course Jennifer is there!

689
00:41:20,090 --> 00:41:23,360
Rob: The ultimate Deep Space
Nine mother, uh, played by, uh,

690
00:41:23,390 --> 00:41:26,240
the wonderful Felicia M. Bell.

691
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:30,830
She's come back, one of the, uh,
true, uh, war horses of, uh, Deep

692
00:41:30,830 --> 00:41:34,920
Space Nine coming in when needed very
sparingly throughout the seven seasons.

693
00:41:36,746 --> 00:41:36,766
Kevin: Yeah!

694
00:41:36,766 --> 00:41:39,828
She must've been cast in the pilot,
never knowing that she would come

695
00:41:39,828 --> 00:41:41,643
back as a full fledged character.

696
00:41:41,690 --> 00:41:47,990
Rob: She did appear in the previous
episode as, um, as the alternate version

697
00:41:48,020 --> 00:41:54,260
of, um, Jennifer, but this one is solely
focused on, well, there's other mirror

698
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:59,937
universe stuff happening, but the A plot
really is Jennifer's connection with Jake.

699
00:41:59,937 --> 00:42:05,757
Kevin: Jake, re revisiting the death
of his mother and being tempted

700
00:42:05,757 --> 00:42:09,777
to invest his feelings in this
alternate universe version of her

701
00:42:09,777 --> 00:42:11,427
who is not quite the mother he knew.

702
00:42:12,193 --> 00:42:16,483
Rob: No, but investing in her, the
emotional connection of what he does

703
00:42:16,483 --> 00:42:19,333
or wanting to cook for her, wanting
to spend time with her all the time.

704
00:42:19,663 --> 00:42:24,583
There's a wonderful moment when they're
in the alternate universe later on, um,

705
00:42:24,673 --> 00:42:28,153
and Jennifer pretty much says to Sisko,
look, if he doesn't wanna spend time

706
00:42:28,153 --> 00:42:32,023
with me, he doesn't have to, but, and
then it's a shot of him just checking in.

707
00:42:32,293 --> 00:42:34,273
He goes, but he doesn't
wanna leave me alone.

708
00:42:36,313 --> 00:42:39,313
And it's a good focus about her
Jennifer, who was never, you know, this,

709
00:42:39,313 --> 00:42:42,973
Jennifer was not a mother, never had
a child or anything like that, never

710
00:42:42,973 --> 00:42:46,933
had that maternal instinct, was all
focused on her science and helping the,

711
00:42:46,963 --> 00:42:49,603
the cause against the Terran Empire.

712
00:42:49,963 --> 00:42:55,033
Um, to finding that connection, she
seems to be drawn to Ben and to Jake,

713
00:42:55,393 --> 00:42:58,123
um, whether she tries to deny it or not.

714
00:42:58,513 --> 00:43:03,733
Um, but there especially is that point at
the end, she feels this protection towards

715
00:43:03,733 --> 00:43:08,443
Jake and wants to get him off, even that
means him being taken away from her.

716
00:43:09,013 --> 00:43:13,483
Um, and the complication for Ben as
well, they're going, you look like

717
00:43:13,483 --> 00:43:15,013
my wife, but you're not my wife.

718
00:43:15,013 --> 00:43:16,243
And there's too many differences.

719
00:43:16,423 --> 00:43:18,193
We feel a connection, but I deny that.

720
00:43:18,193 --> 00:43:21,673
But in the end he goes, yes,
there was a connection between us.

721
00:43:21,755 --> 00:43:24,245
Kevin: Some great sci-fi melodrama stuff.

722
00:43:24,245 --> 00:43:27,395
You can't do in anything
other than science fiction.

723
00:43:27,395 --> 00:43:31,355
The like, what if my wife was
alive in a, in another universe

724
00:43:31,355 --> 00:43:32,855
and she was a different person?

725
00:43:33,065 --> 00:43:33,605
Would I still

726
00:43:33,757 --> 00:43:34,267
Rob: Yes.

727
00:43:34,867 --> 00:43:35,137
Yeah.

728
00:43:35,197 --> 00:43:38,497
And seeing that whole thing of it
plays out so beautifully in sci-fi or

729
00:43:38,497 --> 00:43:40,897
fantasy of going, what could have been.

730
00:43:41,767 --> 00:43:46,087
What would I say to my mother who
passed away when I was a a boy?

731
00:43:46,537 --> 00:43:51,847
How would I catch up on all those years
I've lost, um, like nine years I believe

732
00:43:51,847 --> 00:43:54,667
it is from what, uh, I think Jake says.

733
00:43:55,147 --> 00:43:59,617
Um, but yeah, it's a great little
family unit that you see explored here.

734
00:43:59,647 --> 00:44:02,887
And especially that it's a different
angle of looking at a mother

735
00:44:02,887 --> 00:44:06,382
character, of going, this particular
character was never a mother.

736
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,160
Kevin: No, but you still get
that hint of this is what the

737
00:44:10,170 --> 00:44:12,170
Siskos would've been like.

738
00:44:12,268 --> 00:44:12,928
Rob: Of course.

739
00:44:13,078 --> 00:44:16,888
And, um, and then we have the tragic
ending of the whole episode, sorry,

740
00:44:16,888 --> 00:44:22,108
spoilers, where she sacrifices herself
to save, uh, Jake, who is gonna be shot

741
00:44:22,108 --> 00:44:25,258
by, um, uh, saucy, sexy, lesbian, Kira.

742
00:44:26,067 --> 00:44:28,797
Kevin: Yeah, well, she was clearly
supposed to be dead in every universe.

743
00:44:29,488 --> 00:44:30,478
Rob: Every universe.

744
00:44:30,478 --> 00:44:32,698
She's a, she's a, a locking off point.

745
00:44:33,210 --> 00:44:36,910
Kevin: Speaking of tragedy around
Jake Sisko, I watched the visitor this

746
00:44:36,910 --> 00:44:43,060
week just because it was recently,
uh, celebrating its anniversary as a,

747
00:44:43,060 --> 00:44:45,280
as a Hallmark episode of that season.

748
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,560
And boy, Jake mourning his
parents is just, uh, hard, hard

749
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,195
stuff to watch in the best way.

750
00:44:52,737 --> 00:44:53,607
Rob: Oh my god.

751
00:44:53,607 --> 00:44:54,567
Yeah, he doesn't cut a break.

752
00:44:54,567 --> 00:44:55,377
That, that guy.

753
00:44:55,857 --> 00:44:59,727
Um, and yeah, beautiful final shot
of, you know, Jake being there

754
00:44:59,727 --> 00:45:01,557
with, with Jennifer as she's dying.

755
00:45:01,557 --> 00:45:05,307
Sisko coming in, uh, Sisko
finally letting going, going.

756
00:45:05,307 --> 00:45:06,537
There was a connection there.

757
00:45:06,687 --> 00:45:07,527
And him.

758
00:45:07,887 --> 00:45:08,757
Beautiful moment.

759
00:45:08,757 --> 00:45:13,377
And I just, anytime I see the two of them
together, I know how close the actors

760
00:45:13,377 --> 00:45:19,227
were, uh, for the whole seven seasons and
how possessive Avery Brooks was, of, of,

761
00:45:19,287 --> 00:45:22,197
uh, the young of his young actor, uh, son.

762
00:45:22,617 --> 00:45:26,997
To see them, him turn and collapse into
his son, who's now taller than him.

763
00:45:27,235 --> 00:45:27,385
Kevin: Yeah.

764
00:45:29,397 --> 00:45:30,567
Rob: And just crying.

765
00:45:30,567 --> 00:45:33,297
You can see Avery Brooks
crying going, let's go home.

766
00:45:33,715 --> 00:45:37,135
Kevin: Avery Brooks, huge
in stature, short in height?

767
00:45:37,797 --> 00:45:38,667
Rob: Short in height.

768
00:45:38,757 --> 00:45:42,927
Yeah, is, he's, his personality is,
makes him three times taller and a

769
00:45:42,927 --> 00:45:47,157
great final shot of the camera, which
you don't see often, uh, high angle

770
00:45:47,217 --> 00:45:52,047
shot down of, uh, Jennifer's dead
body and the two Sisko boys hugging,

771
00:45:52,437 --> 00:45:53,907
um, mourning the loss of her death.

772
00:45:53,937 --> 00:45:57,117
So it's that lovely exploration
of what it is to be a mother.

773
00:45:57,117 --> 00:45:58,587
What instincts do you have?

774
00:45:58,587 --> 00:46:00,057
What connections do you have?

775
00:46:00,057 --> 00:46:01,137
Is it always there?

776
00:46:01,467 --> 00:46:02,907
Do you something you have to learn?

777
00:46:03,057 --> 00:46:03,987
Is it a bit of both?

778
00:46:04,317 --> 00:46:09,567
Um, with all the mirror Universe
shenanigans going on around, yes.

779
00:46:09,567 --> 00:46:11,007
You've got alternative Worf.

780
00:46:11,245 --> 00:46:14,215
Kevin: I was gonna say, these Deep
Space Nine mirror universe episodes

781
00:46:14,215 --> 00:46:16,885
were often excuses for shenanigans.

782
00:46:16,885 --> 00:46:20,485
So for this one to end on such a
tragic beat that really hits you

783
00:46:20,485 --> 00:46:25,765
is actually unusual for the way the
mirror universe was used here in

784
00:46:25,887 --> 00:46:30,237
Rob: 'cause they ki they had such a high
turnaround of killing off characters.

785
00:46:30,237 --> 00:46:32,097
Like killed off Odo in the first.

786
00:46:32,247 --> 00:46:35,337
They did five five mirror
universe episodes and he killed

787
00:46:35,337 --> 00:46:36,777
off Odo in the first one.

788
00:46:37,047 --> 00:46:41,937
They killed off, um, uh, Nog in this one.

789
00:46:42,387 --> 00:46:45,027
Um, there's always like a high
body count when it comes around.

790
00:46:45,027 --> 00:46:50,997
I think, uh, Sisko died in in episode
two or three, the alternative Sisko.

791
00:46:51,267 --> 00:46:51,897
Um,

792
00:46:52,045 --> 00:46:52,465
Kevin: Right.

793
00:46:52,855 --> 00:46:56,875
There were two come after this,
Resurrection, which is almost like

794
00:46:56,875 --> 00:47:01,115
it's, it's barely a mirror universe
episode, it's just an excuse for Bareil

795
00:47:01,135 --> 00:47:06,055
to come back from the dead, and then The
Emperor's New Cloak, which is definitely

796
00:47:06,140 --> 00:47:08,100
a comedy, that was the Ferengi comedy one.

797
00:47:09,072 --> 00:47:09,582
Rob: That's right.

798
00:47:09,642 --> 00:47:10,122
Yes.

799
00:47:10,302 --> 00:47:15,132
Um, but yeah, and great, great
battle sequences of Klingons going up

800
00:47:15,132 --> 00:47:21,552
against, uh, you know, uh, prototype,
uh, Defiant, um, and attacking

801
00:47:21,552 --> 00:47:23,392
around Deep Space Nine or Terok Nor.

802
00:47:23,682 --> 00:47:28,362
Um, so yes, all that stuff is fun
and exciting and, but the story of

803
00:47:28,362 --> 00:47:33,492
Jennifer, it it, as soon as she appears
and in the cold opener, you see Jake

804
00:47:33,492 --> 00:47:35,412
walk in and see his mum, not sure.

805
00:47:35,412 --> 00:47:39,342
He's terrified, he's excited,
he's confused, then they go,

806
00:47:39,492 --> 00:47:40,722
this ain't gonna end well.

807
00:47:41,665 --> 00:47:41,965
Kevin: Yeah.

808
00:47:43,345 --> 00:47:44,215
Uh, yeah.

809
00:47:44,245 --> 00:47:49,195
Jake Sisko did such good work on Deep
Space Nine, and I feel like he did, he

810
00:47:49,255 --> 00:47:53,395
served a similar function to our cadets
here in Starfleet Academy of being

811
00:47:53,395 --> 00:47:55,285
characters who are not fully formed.

812
00:47:55,345 --> 00:47:56,305
They're naive.

813
00:47:56,455 --> 00:47:59,215
They don't know how to be
professional about things.

814
00:47:59,515 --> 00:48:01,825
They, they don't know
how to avoid mistakes.

815
00:48:01,825 --> 00:48:05,515
They make mistakes and then
learn from those mistakes.

816
00:48:05,515 --> 00:48:06,745
And, yeah.

817
00:48:06,775 --> 00:48:10,915
Um, I think everything I loved about
Jake Sisko and Deep Space Nine is

818
00:48:10,915 --> 00:48:16,405
multiplied five, sixfold with our cadet
characters here in, in Starfleet Academy.

819
00:48:16,578 --> 00:48:20,118
Rob: What I love about him is they
make the move the clever move of,

820
00:48:20,208 --> 00:48:23,418
you know, he doesn't want to join
staff lead, you know, he's a rider.

821
00:48:23,478 --> 00:48:25,938
He to stay outside of that world.

822
00:48:25,938 --> 00:48:29,418
And so that gives him a unique
perspective, which they try and explore

823
00:48:29,418 --> 00:48:31,698
later on in the heart of the Dominion War.

824
00:48:32,238 --> 00:48:35,958
But, um, the opening scene, like
he's there at his usual spot

825
00:48:36,528 --> 00:48:39,618
'cause he's missing Nog 'cause
no's off to Starfleet Academy.

826
00:48:40,128 --> 00:48:46,998
Um, and he talks to Odo and then, uh,
Quark and that leads on into a, when

827
00:48:46,998 --> 00:48:50,958
he leaves, that's a discussion that
connects, um, Odo and Quark about

828
00:48:50,958 --> 00:48:53,418
friendship and loneliness and, you know.

829
00:48:54,228 --> 00:48:56,868
How they're kind of connected
in their, they have no friends

830
00:48:56,868 --> 00:48:58,788
and they decide to do that.

831
00:48:59,118 --> 00:49:02,448
Um, and that's his, that's what Jake's
always there for, to be something that

832
00:49:02,448 --> 00:49:07,908
connects emotional states and state of
mind from our lead characters as well.

833
00:49:09,137 --> 00:49:10,157
Kevin: What a great show.

834
00:49:10,307 --> 00:49:17,447
Ah, I am wishing for an HD
remaster of Deep Space Nine.

835
00:49:18,077 --> 00:49:20,802
Every time I go back and watch
one of those episodes, I, I

836
00:49:20,807 --> 00:49:25,637
cannot believe it is they have
let it stay this fuzzy, this show.

837
00:49:25,817 --> 00:49:26,447
It is so

838
00:49:26,548 --> 00:49:30,858
Rob: Look, the, the battle scenes
in this one especially are great,

839
00:49:31,098 --> 00:49:33,468
but they are rendered so poorly.

840
00:49:34,038 --> 00:49:37,038
You, you, you have to squint a bit
to go, oh, this look would look

841
00:49:37,038 --> 00:49:38,808
so good if it was just remastered

842
00:49:39,197 --> 00:49:40,327
Kevin: Where's Kickstarter?

843
00:49:40,717 --> 00:49:45,467
A million nerds would turn up with their
dollars to, to fund that production.

844
00:49:46,068 --> 00:49:47,238
Rob: We can only hope.

845
00:49:47,268 --> 00:49:49,128
We can hope for the best.

846
00:49:50,027 --> 00:49:52,517
Kevin: Well, thank you for taking
me back to Shattered Mirror, Rob.

847
00:49:52,517 --> 00:49:53,627
That was a good time.

848
00:49:54,288 --> 00:49:57,798
Rob: Thank you for taking me to, uh,
the darker side of Lwaxana Troi and

849
00:49:57,798 --> 00:50:02,508
what a, especially someone who's such a
larger than life character to see her.

850
00:50:02,747 --> 00:50:05,077
Kevin: Oh, watching you play
vulnerable and grounded Lwaxana Troi.

851
00:50:05,957 --> 00:50:06,977
It's, it's a look at her.

852
00:50:06,977 --> 00:50:12,137
We rarely get, we do get a few moments
like that in Deep Space Nine as well as

853
00:50:12,137 --> 00:50:16,157
like payoff, but this whole episode was
about her being put in that place of

854
00:50:16,157 --> 00:50:22,637
vulnerability and, uh, and, and being
damaged and, and injured emotionally

855
00:50:22,637 --> 00:50:26,537
and, and that's, that's something that
Majel Barrett-Roddenberry didn't get to

856
00:50:26,537 --> 00:50:29,237
do enough of in her time on Star Trek.

857
00:50:29,568 --> 00:50:34,653
Rob: No, it's definitely a, um, a.
That's sort of like a what you'd expect

858
00:50:34,653 --> 00:50:36,753
from a final season type episode.

859
00:50:36,753 --> 00:50:40,773
So let's bring in one of those characters
who's been around and give them almost

860
00:50:40,773 --> 00:50:43,833
like a, a full stop their story of going.

861
00:50:43,833 --> 00:50:46,563
They are not just how you
perceive them for six years.

862
00:50:46,953 --> 00:50:50,163
This is, you know, something about
them that is a nice way to round

863
00:50:50,163 --> 00:50:51,513
them off and go, there they are.

864
00:50:51,543 --> 00:50:54,603
There's a little gift we hand back to
the universe their final appearance.

865
00:50:54,902 --> 00:50:56,162
Kevin: Yeah, for sure.

866
00:50:57,002 --> 00:51:01,698
All right, well it for the last time,
for a long time, Rob, we're gonna

867
00:51:01,698 --> 00:51:03,708
sign off here on Subspace Radio.

868
00:51:03,708 --> 00:51:07,278
Any thoughts to take us
through the hiatus ahead?

869
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,930
Rob: Look, there's a, it's, it's, it's
been a contentious season, but most new

870
00:51:11,930 --> 00:51:17,120
modern Star Trek is contentious, but
so much joy in there and we're so up

871
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:18,890
in the air of where we are going next.

872
00:51:18,890 --> 00:51:25,280
What with season two of, uh, Starfleet
Academy filmed with all of next Strange

873
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:31,865
New Worlds filmed, we are just approaching
the finish line and a lot of discussions

874
00:51:31,865 --> 00:51:39,095
going on going, is this the end of this
Discovery era, um, section of Star Trek?

875
00:51:39,095 --> 00:51:39,695
Is it

876
00:51:40,323 --> 00:51:43,893
Kevin: Will they end it and start
something new someday in the future, or

877
00:51:43,893 --> 00:51:46,173
will they continue this era is, yeah.

878
00:51:46,173 --> 00:51:47,913
It's the big unanswered question.

879
00:51:47,913 --> 00:51:53,043
And like no decisions have been
made yet if, uh, if the people

880
00:51:53,043 --> 00:51:56,523
with the purse strings know
they aren't telling anyone yet.

881
00:51:56,553 --> 00:51:59,673
So we're just gonna have to be patient
and find out with everyone else.

882
00:52:00,365 --> 00:52:00,935
Rob: Exactly.

883
00:52:00,940 --> 00:52:03,785
And all, all the real world stuff of
what's happening with Paramount and

884
00:52:03,785 --> 00:52:06,365
the acquisition of Warner Brothers,
and whether that's good or not,

885
00:52:06,365 --> 00:52:10,535
whether it's legal, that's whole
other, and they're so focused on that.

886
00:52:10,535 --> 00:52:15,245
They're not focusing on what actually they
have in their Paramount, uh, back catalog.

887
00:52:16,203 --> 00:52:17,078
Kevin: It is bittersweet.

888
00:52:17,763 --> 00:52:24,243
It feels scary because like I think
back to the era when, when Enterprise

889
00:52:24,243 --> 00:52:30,213
was finishing up at the end of fourth
season and us, us fans going, what?

890
00:52:30,213 --> 00:52:33,783
A Star Trek series that isn't
gonna get seven seasons.

891
00:52:34,083 --> 00:52:35,883
What, what went wrong?

892
00:52:35,883 --> 00:52:37,683
This is a horrible tragedy.

893
00:52:37,713 --> 00:52:43,593
But at the same time, we could all feel
how tired the franchise was, how, how much

894
00:52:43,593 --> 00:52:49,503
the stories were recycling old ideas or
going back to the same wells and, and,

895
00:52:49,503 --> 00:52:52,293
and struggling to create anything new.

896
00:52:52,443 --> 00:52:55,173
And that's not how Star
Trek feels right now.

897
00:52:55,293 --> 00:53:00,633
Star Trek feels fresher to me and
stronger to me than it ever has.

898
00:53:00,633 --> 00:53:04,923
This feels more like the end of Star
Trek: The Next Generation to me,

899
00:53:04,923 --> 00:53:09,963
that if they stopped Star Trek now it
would be going out on a high, which

900
00:53:09,963 --> 00:53:12,123
I guess is a good place to go out on.

901
00:53:12,723 --> 00:53:16,713
But with the sense that there was
more to tell and more to do that

902
00:53:16,713 --> 00:53:18,993
it is a shame we will not get.

903
00:53:18,993 --> 00:53:24,363
So I really do hope that, you know,
with financial responsibility that.

904
00:53:25,023 --> 00:53:31,623
They don't continue to set too much
money on fire for, to fund wars that,

905
00:53:31,683 --> 00:53:36,633
uh, that we find ourselves in, that
Star Trek is allowed to continue and

906
00:53:36,633 --> 00:53:41,793
that something as good as Starfleet
Academy in particular gets to continue.

907
00:53:42,213 --> 00:53:47,313
I know there's, there's the pitch for
Star Trek: Year One to follow, uh, Strange

908
00:53:47,313 --> 00:53:52,023
New Worlds to see the first year of
Captain Kirk in command of the Enterprise.

909
00:53:52,323 --> 00:53:56,163
I know there's the workplace comedy
that Tawny Newsome put together,

910
00:53:56,853 --> 00:53:58,863
that has been fully pitched.

911
00:53:59,193 --> 00:54:04,023
There's the idea of, uh, of, of
Admiral Archer coming back with a

912
00:54:04,023 --> 00:54:08,883
political drama in Star Trek, and
all of these sound like interesting

913
00:54:08,883 --> 00:54:10,623
ideas that I would love to watch.

914
00:54:10,623 --> 00:54:15,213
But if, if anything deserves to
continue right now, I would say

915
00:54:15,213 --> 00:54:19,563
it is Starfleet Academy and I
would rather the money go there.

916
00:54:20,048 --> 00:54:21,728
Give us three, four more seasons.

917
00:54:21,728 --> 00:54:27,398
Give us the full seven season run
of Starfleet Academy, and I will be

918
00:54:27,398 --> 00:54:31,568
happy for those other ideas, sadly,
to stay on the shelves because

919
00:54:31,568 --> 00:54:34,628
Starfleet Academy, I think, has
earned its place on our screens.

920
00:54:35,165 --> 00:54:38,405
Rob: Well, we have, you haven't
even mentioned the, uh, always,

921
00:54:38,525 --> 00:54:43,685
uh, uh, hovering in the background,
the infamous Star Trek, uh,

922
00:54:43,715 --> 00:54:47,045
Legacy with, with Seven of Nine as

923
00:54:47,258 --> 00:54:50,888
Kevin: I didn't mention it because I feel
like that one's dead and buried, sadly.

924
00:54:50,888 --> 00:54:53,078
The te have been torn down.

925
00:54:53,348 --> 00:54:55,808
The, the staff has moved on.

926
00:54:55,838 --> 00:54:59,138
I feel like if that was gonna happen,
it, the time for it to happen was

927
00:54:59,138 --> 00:55:03,818
two years ago and it would impossible
to make it happen now unless, unless

928
00:55:03,818 --> 00:55:09,128
they backed up the money truck, which
seems to be increasingly, uh, empty.

929
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:13,070
Rob: Yeah, Terry Matalas has
definitely moved on with into

930
00:55:13,070 --> 00:55:14,930
the, that world of Marvel money.

931
00:55:15,170 --> 00:55:18,860
So, um, I believe, yeah, focus
on what we have right now.

932
00:55:19,130 --> 00:55:24,380
Um, but for me, maybe it is feeling a
little bit not as tired as Enterprise,

933
00:55:24,380 --> 00:55:25,955
but there's so much more to be told.

934
00:55:25,955 --> 00:55:31,730
What I do agree with you, they've finally
found a new way to crack the, the format.

935
00:55:32,180 --> 00:55:36,410
Whereas with Enterprise and Voyager,
they tried to say, oh, we've got

936
00:55:36,410 --> 00:55:38,060
this massive change to what we do.

937
00:55:38,060 --> 00:55:39,500
But it was more superficial.

938
00:55:39,770 --> 00:55:44,300
It was more just, oh, here's, we've got
a rocking opening credits that makes us

939
00:55:44,300 --> 00:55:48,890
so different, but the episodes were still
quite formulaic and we've seen before.

940
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:53,120
Voyager tried to push itself
as we're surviving, um, but

941
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,490
it became episodic as always.

942
00:55:55,580 --> 00:55:59,530
But with Starfleet Academy, we
have broken the, the routine.

943
00:55:59,530 --> 00:56:03,160
We can bring in those elements of
Star Trek that we love, the political,

944
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,690
the scientific, the exploration,
the joy and wonder and add that in

945
00:56:07,690 --> 00:56:09,610
with this new teenage drama element.

946
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:13,000
And you can find that balance
and they're doing quite well.

947
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,860
So there is the potential for it to go on,
but I am feeling it is running a bit outta

948
00:56:17,860 --> 00:56:21,220
steam, the whole modern era of Star Trek.

949
00:56:22,060 --> 00:56:24,100
But we can always live in hope.

950
00:56:24,130 --> 00:56:26,800
We must be hopeful 'cause that's
what Star Trek is all about.

951
00:56:27,728 --> 00:56:28,118
Kevin: Yeah.

952
00:56:28,118 --> 00:56:32,348
Well, and and worst case, we
still have three new seasons of

953
00:56:32,348 --> 00:56:33,818
Star Trek to look forward to.

954
00:56:34,810 --> 00:56:35,500
Rob: Exactly.

955
00:56:35,590 --> 00:56:38,950
Two more seasons of Strange New
Worlds and one more season of

956
00:56:39,060 --> 00:56:40,500
Star Trek: Starfleet Academy.

957
00:56:40,530 --> 00:56:42,810
But you know, we just have to wait.

958
00:56:42,810 --> 00:56:47,580
And you'll have to wait listeners to
listen to us again because it's quite some

959
00:56:47,580 --> 00:56:53,370
time before we get back into our Subspace
Radio dome and record our thoughts.

960
00:56:53,718 --> 00:56:57,408
Kevin: If you are waiting along with us
for Star Trek to come back, I'll give

961
00:56:57,408 --> 00:57:02,238
a couple of plugs for things that I
have been, uh, partaking of recently.

962
00:57:02,268 --> 00:57:05,958
First of all, there's the new video
game, Star Trek: Voyager Across the

963
00:57:05,958 --> 00:57:11,038
Unknown, which is a full, choose
your own adventure retelling of all

964
00:57:11,038 --> 00:57:15,658
seven seasons of Star Trek Voyager,
where you get to make the decisions

965
00:57:15,658 --> 00:57:18,238
about who goes on the away mission.

966
00:57:18,238 --> 00:57:20,068
Do we go this way or that way?

967
00:57:20,098 --> 00:57:24,338
How do we answer these pivotal
questions, like, do we kill Tuvix to

968
00:57:25,178 --> 00:57:27,998
um, our two, our two officers back?

969
00:57:28,178 --> 00:57:31,508
And you can choose the other
path and see which way it goes.

970
00:57:31,538 --> 00:57:35,978
And the trailer has these amazing
variations you can see of by the

971
00:57:35,978 --> 00:57:40,028
time Voyager makes it back to
Federation space, if it does, it is

972
00:57:40,028 --> 00:57:42,368
half Borg Cube in some scenarios.

973
00:57:42,728 --> 00:57:45,248
And, um, it is, it is delightful.

974
00:57:45,248 --> 00:57:49,178
It is definitely one for the fans, I
would say, that I've read some somewhat

975
00:57:49,178 --> 00:57:51,728
harsh critiques of it as a video game.

976
00:57:52,433 --> 00:57:57,233
Um, but if, if what you want to
do is, uh, explore the, the what

977
00:57:57,233 --> 00:58:02,603
ifs of Star Trek Voyager, this
is a, a good time and I highly.

978
00:58:03,113 --> 00:58:07,353
And, uh, there's also a new documentary
out called Beam Me Up, Sulu.

979
00:58:08,065 --> 00:58:08,845
Rob: Yes, I saw the

980
00:58:09,023 --> 00:58:12,233
Kevin: Uh, yeah, I, I gave
it a watch the other day.

981
00:58:12,233 --> 00:58:21,503
It is, um, it is charmingly, uh,
heartwarming, but definitely, um, a

982
00:58:21,503 --> 00:58:24,083
product of the fan film community.

983
00:58:24,083 --> 00:58:29,553
So if, you're not familiar, this is a
story of a small group of people who,

984
00:58:29,553 --> 00:58:36,243
as teenagers, started putting together
a, a Star Trek fan film, uh, which

985
00:58:36,633 --> 00:58:42,063
miracle of miracles, they managed to get
George Takei to agree to appear in it.

986
00:58:43,023 --> 00:58:49,128
Filmed these scenes, which George Takei
and then, they got busy with exams and the

987
00:58:49,128 --> 00:58:53,208
footage into a closet and then was lost.

988
00:58:53,268 --> 00:58:57,318
And the group of friends
had very different levels of

989
00:58:57,318 --> 00:58:59,028
commitment to this project.

990
00:58:59,598 --> 00:59:03,318
The one who lost them was the,
apparently though he was the director

991
00:59:03,318 --> 00:59:07,458
of the production, he also was,
my read is he has, he had pretty

992
00:59:07,458 --> 00:59:09,198
low commitment to the whole idea.

993
00:59:09,198 --> 00:59:11,838
And so he was like, oh
yeah, I lost the videos.

994
00:59:11,838 --> 00:59:15,948
And his friends who were going to film
school and that this was how they were

995
00:59:15,948 --> 00:59:20,058
gonna break into the industry, were like,
what do you mean you lost the footage?

996
00:59:20,058 --> 00:59:22,038
And they had a huge falling out over it.

997
00:59:22,368 --> 00:59:27,078
Anyway, eventually the footage was
rediscovered and, uh, this is the

998
00:59:27,078 --> 00:59:34,158
story of how that, that movie finally
came together 35 years later with, uh,

999
00:59:34,188 --> 00:59:39,198
with current interviews with people
like George Takei about the show.

1000
00:59:39,528 --> 00:59:45,138
And, uh, it is a good time,
but very, very, uh, deep fandom

1001
00:59:45,198 --> 00:59:47,118
sort of material, I would say.

1002
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:48,620
Rob: I love the trailer.

1003
00:59:48,620 --> 00:59:49,220
It looked great.

1004
00:59:49,220 --> 00:59:52,820
So I'll um, hunt that down and you
should hunt that down too, listeners.

1005
00:59:53,128 --> 00:59:58,588
Kevin: And while you do, we will be, uh,
traveling through our subspace to the

1006
00:59:58,588 --> 01:00:03,568
next outing of the franchise that is Star
Trek, uh, sometime middle of this year

1007
01:00:03,568 --> 01:00:05,548
with, uh, Strange New Worlds season four.

1008
01:00:06,300 --> 01:00:07,080
Rob: Looking forward to it.

1009
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:08,490
Thank you so much for this 10 week.

1010
01:00:08,490 --> 01:00:12,750
It's been a joyous experience
and, um, I'm glad to be, uh, you

1011
01:00:12,750 --> 01:00:17,070
know, positive about, uh, Star
Trek in these, uh, negative times.

1012
01:00:18,088 --> 01:00:18,838
Kevin: Thank you, Rob.

1013
01:00:18,838 --> 01:00:22,708
So am I. And until next
time, see around the galaxy.