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Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 

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host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 

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marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 

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We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 

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marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and 

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have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. 

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Welcome to the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I'm 

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super stoked to have Kenice Murphy join us today. What's up, Kenice? 

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Hey, Ty. Thanks for having me on, and I hope your day is going well. 

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It is. It's a Friday. It's sunny in in Austin, 

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Texas. Go figure. A little hot, but ready for the Labor Day weekend. It's gonna be good. 

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I bet. You're a baseball fan, aren't you? I am. Alright. Well, just 

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a a fun fact. I was at the, Giants game here in San Francisco 

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this week on Tuesday night, oh, where the pitcher carried a no hitter into the bottom of 

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the ninth inning only to have it broken up with two with with one 

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out left to go. Such as life. But it was really, really wild and really 

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cool to be there and get to experience that and in the ballpark. And it's just, 

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something you don't get every day. And it's funny because, it just always reminds me of the 

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saying, you can't predict baseball. And that's a pretty good segue into what we're gonna be talking about 

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today. Right? So, like, with programmatic and things like that. 

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Well, I I saw what you did there. Just just brought it all the way through. Yeah. To be in 

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a ballpark when there's anything close remotely close to a no hitter I mean, 

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what? Is there maybe average, what, two or three a year at most? 

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Right? Maybe one. Some years some years maybe have, like you're talking, like, counted on your 

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hand at best. Right? Yeah. It's, it's funny because I kept I kept saying to the person I was with, I 

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kept saying, pitcher's kinda up there in age, and he's throwing a lot of pitches. What's going on? And he 

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would, like, make a scowl at me and then point to the scoreboard and keep reminding 

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me that that, like, you know, there's a no hitter going on, but we can never talk about a no hitter 

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while it's going on. That ruins everything. But then in the ninth inning, all the all the fans 

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rose to their feet and then two outs and then just, you know, Gabe gave up 

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that hit. But it was still something really special. So glad I was there. I love it. I I 

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tuned in on audio and and got to see the the sad disruption of the no hit of 

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the no hitter, I'll admit, from from Texas later in the evening. And, I was 

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I was sad, but also impressed that he was able to take it through, get the shutout. When the guy, like, 

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looked at you and gave you the scout, it reminded me of, there's an old saying, baseball is like 

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church. Many attend, but few understand. It's a good segue into our 

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conversation today. Many try to do programmatic if you understand it. But, yeah, baseball's 

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near and dear, I think, for for us. Your Orioles are doing well also, so kudos. 

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What's the deal? Why? Why are they doing well? Well, I think when you're Yeah. When you're 

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chronically bad for twenty years, eventually, you're gonna string together a decent run of draft 

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picks. And, they've done that, and it's really great to see them succeed. But it's also 

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sad because they are their ownership group is just not they 

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are not baseball people, and they do not understand that they are toying with people's 

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emotions and what that means to to the proud people of Baltimore. So 

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so I wish them lots of luck, but, you know, I'm always I'm always worried that, you know, it's 

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fleeting. Right? Yeah. Maybe one day, we'll we'll pull a a 

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dream and, pull together a ragtag group to, bring the team to the 

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people and make it and make a movie out of it like, Ryan Reynolds. Right. Exactly. One, 

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let's save that money. Yeah. And put our ducats and Bitcoins together to see what we can come up with 

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here. We'll need a lot of programmatic to do that. So with that, 

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Kenis is amazing guy, amazing friend, knows the sport of baseball, 

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knows about programmatic. He's been featured at such companies as AdBright, 

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Yahoo, Converseent, and, a little shop called Google. Maybe you've heard of them. 

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But maybe, Kanise, you can help us. The audience, I'm sure some of them don't know 

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what programmatic advertising exactly means, and maybe you could help kind of just 

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break down some of the some of that. What is it? Yeah. So what programmatic 

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advertising does is make good on the promise of buying 

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the right person with the right message at the right time. 

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And if you think about how we used to do marketing, if I was Rolex and 

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I wanted to reach my demographic, my best bet was to was 

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to buy an ad in the finance section of the Wall Street Journal, and there was 

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a pretty good chance I was gonna be hitting my target demographic. What 

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programmatic has done to expand on that is take that concept and say, okay, 

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send a message, send an ad to people who actually visited my site, who have expressed an 

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interest in my site, or as we think about some of the more predictive things that 

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have happened over the last couple of years, Market to people who I 

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think would be interested in Rolex watches. 

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Mhmm. So the industry has come a long way in terms of the, you know, the 

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technical capabilities to make this possible. A lot of that is obviously thanks to 

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computers and our ability to understand and share very minute little 

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pieces of information very quickly before a page loads so that, when a person 

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visit us visits a certain site, ideally, they can see a message that is 

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somewhat relevant to them. That's awesome. That's super helpful. What are the kind of 

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brands that are kind of tapping into this well in your opinion and 

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maybe some that that maybe aren't but but should be. I'm curious to kind of get a sense of, 

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like, who are the players in in in the space and maybe some of the other parts of the ecosystem 

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Yeah. That people might find interesting. Sure. So, so, again, I think there's there's lots of 

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different flavors of of marketing and programmatic, and the space 

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has evolved immensely. Right? Primarily, the the initial space was about 

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remarketing. Right? And that's just the idea. If someone visited my site, there's a pretty good chance if they came 

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here or they got to a certain point on my site, I want to show them that message again and 

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again and again because there's a very strong indicator based on fact that they were at a 

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certain point on my site that they are close to or very interested in buying 

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something. That has evolved. And with that, you see lots more marketers 

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of all ilks. Right? So you've got your your legacy consumer brands who've 

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been around for, you know, a hundred years. You've got the emerging 

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direct to consumer space who is extremely digitally savvy. Mhmm. 

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And it's a you'll also think of programmatic as something that you can use 

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to expand on your existing if you're doing lots of search, if you're 

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doing lots of specific Yep. I call it, big destination marketing. So 

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if you're buying lots on YouTube, if you're buying lots on Facebook or TikTok, Instagram, 

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etcetera, I I think we're at the point now where everyone universally recognizes 

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that you kinda have to be in this space, and you can't ignore it because, again, there 

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have been so many advances that it's, that there's something there for everyone 

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Yep. Or every type of marketer regardless of where they happen to be in in 

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their funnel in terms of the types of users they're trying to market to. Right? So it used to be a 

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very lower funnel marketer experience, and that has since broadened and will continue 

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to broaden to Yeah. Going up the funnel, so to speak. Yeah. For sure. And it reminds 

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me of other other performance marketing levers and channels that talk about that too. 

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So with with programmatic and and the term display marketing sometimes, 

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right, is there kind of a misconception? Or what do you say to people that might say, like, well, it's just 

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just banner ads or something like that? Is is that even a misconception? I think one 

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of the things that we always talk about click rates, things like that, and it it's funny. Yep. You 

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talk to people, and it's like, oh, I never click on those ads, which but it's like, you've clicked you've clicked 

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on things before. We've all clicked on things. A hundred do it all the time, clothing 

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stuff, lounge wear. Right? Comfort is key As you do. 

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These days. So there's definitely something there for everyone. Yep. 

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If it's it's there's lots of different flavors to it, whether you're a mobile marketer first. 

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Yeah. Right? Whether it's an app play. Right? Yeah. It's a programmatic opportunity there. 

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Whether you are you know, it it it goes just so much beyond, display banners. And if you 

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think about some of the other evolutions that are taking in the space, like things like AI and how they have become 

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that technology has become extremely powerful in packaging up 

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the message and doing the different permutations of what seems to work and resonate 

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with with consumers versus, Mhmm. Versus the messages that don't. You're seeing 

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lots of things there. So I think it's it's a matter of what type of marketer are you, how are you 

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wielding it, and then where do you need to be because there's something there for everyone. And, you know, it goes 

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into video, and we're seeing this massive expansion into into 

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CTV, which is pretty much just call it TV at this point. Right? Because Yeah. You know, with the 

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with the emergence of the smart TV, it's completely upended the traditional models 

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of how Yeah. Legacy TV buying used to work. So Yeah. Programmatic 

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has a all ten fingers and all ten toes deep in the pie of digital marketing, and 

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there's probably something there for everyone. Yeah. That's a valid point. I think that's 

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fair. What are some of the outcomes that brands and advertisers get out of, 

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like, programmatic as opposed to maybe if we think about paid search as a 

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separate entity for this conversation, maybe paid social as a separate entity for this conversation, 

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maybe like partnerships influencers separately. I know those worlds are converging and those 

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silos are breaking down a little bit more to your point. But for maybe that section of a 

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brand that's kind of categorizing, you know, five or six key channels for their brand 

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and their performance marketing, What are some of the results that you've 

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seen in programmatic maybe versus some of these other performance marketing 

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levers? What types of outcomes do you kinda see possible from from some of 

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this stuff? Yeah. That's a great, great question that can go in a lot of 

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different directions. And I'll start with this. So one of the things that we are 

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constantly talking about is like, okay, what is your expectation? Right? So if you are a 

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traditional search marketer and you are trying to dip a toe into display, you are probably 

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not going to see the exact same intent driven performance that you'll 

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see with a channel like search. But that doesn't mean there's not a lot of value there. Right? 

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Because at some point, you will reach the point of not diminishing, but it's 

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just you you can only get so much out of that channel at a certain point. So 

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you need to be thinking about what, Mhmm. About what other channels you can you can 

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deploy. I think what we're also talking about with outcomes is that that is really 

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going to be a soul searching conversation you need to have with your customer to go 

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back to and align those expectations Totally. And understand exactly what you 

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what is your core thing. Right? And this is where we go kinda go back to the funnel. You know, if we're really 

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focused on just bottom line cost per install or acquisition 

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type outcomes, you're gonna wanna have a really good balance of understanding what channels are working 

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the best for you and then what are the complementary strategies that we are seeing. Mhmm. 

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One of the things I'd add on to that is that with all of the recent changes, 

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with regulatory changes, and some of the different browser changes that are taking 

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place, there is Yep. A lot less data to be able 

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to kind of link together to say, hey. This event, this person clicked on this 

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ad, and then this person went to the checkout page and bought x item. 

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So what we're seeing is less ability to understand exactly what 

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drove a specific transaction. And what that's requiring is people to 

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really get into and lean into, experimentation and to think 

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about an outcome for one channel might look a little bit different for an out and of than an 

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outcome for another channel. You're seeing that a lot as as marketers kind of begin to rethink what 

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they need to do to change in terms of how the 

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landscape around us is changing. And it's not gonna stop changing. Right? We're gonna see more 

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regulatory. We are going to see more. Chrome is set to deprecate 

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third party cookies in the not too distant future, and that looks like it's probably going to 

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happen, at some point next year. And that's gonna continue to change 

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the types of outcomes that marketers can rely on in terms of how they're reporting back on 

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what's driving their business. Yeah. No. I love that. And it'll be interesting 

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to see who responds to that and who's prepared for that. What are some of 

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the counsel that you're seeing out there that you think is helpful for for 

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brands to be prepared for that coming change, to be prepared for that privacy 

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wave that you're talking about with browser changes and limits to the visibility 

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of what we can, you know, what's available for retargeting and for other other, 

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data data visibility. What are some of the best practices or the coaching that you're seeing that 

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you that kinda resonates with you, or how are you counseling clients on it? So I think one of 

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the things is, like, know your baselines today. Right? What are 

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you seeing today? So the the thing that I would say on top of that is, like, you've already been 

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impacted. Privacy browser changes have already impacted your business, especially if you're a a 

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global customer and you operate within the the European economic area. Right? So you've already 

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seen this. But, like, what is your baseline today? Because, you still have lots and lots of information 

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which you can work with. Right? But what but you might not have that in the 

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future. So if you understand what your baseline is today, you can then begin to think about what the gaps are. 

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You still have to grow your business. You still have to acquire new customers. You still have to reduce the 

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churn of new customers Mhmm. And things like that. So it's always kinda starting 

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with, like, establishing that baseline, where are you? And then, alright, what are the levers 

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available to me to fill in the gaps? And, you know, there's not going to be a 

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single magic answer. There's not going to be a single magic you know, the old silver bullet 

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that's gonna be like, this this kinda solves everything. That's not going to happen. It will be Yeah. 

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A combination of things. And so this is where the experimentation stuff 

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really, really, really kinda lean kinda becomes a a a a critical lever to lean 

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on. And Mhmm. The marketers that build in a culture of 

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experimentation will have the best outcomes and will be able 

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to not only manage through some of the data loss that we see, but also 

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thrive in in a new world order. So So they should always be testing. Is that what you're 

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trying to say? Yeah. For lack of a better Little plug. Where are we today? And then what and then 

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what can we spin up? And I think this is just like this this mindset, right, is is really 

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at the core of a lot of the education that I think we're seeing or that we're trying to 

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do and then I do in my day to day. It's like, what do you, you know, what are you trying to achieve? It's the 

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a lot of the the the old questions of what are you trying to achieve? Where does your 

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information live now? Yeah. And then where are you trying to get it to so that you can be 

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more effective with it? And then where are the gaps along the way? And if we can 

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identify those things, we're halfway there. And then what type of culture of experimentation 

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do I need to embrace, you know, in order to to thrive in this 

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world? Love it. That's a good point. And my hypothesis is 

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there's, like, a ton of brands, surprisingly, that are not yet adopting 

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the level of experimentation culture that they need to to compete. 

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Is that do you agree? Do you see that? One thousand percent. I mean, again, you have 

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different marketers at different stages. Right? Some are very nascent. And I think a lot of it 

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depends on kind of, like, what are the different frameworks. Right? And and how do they build up practices 

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within their organizations? And this is something that you've this is something that we've seen. The marketing 

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people historically have been very, very separated, very siloed from a lot of 

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the IT people. Right? Like, the analytics people. And, like, the analytics people can 

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be very salty when they have to share information because that is a segment of the business that they control. That 

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is something that's important to them. And so when we see companies kinda 

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break down those silos and begin to think more holistically about 

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about kind of pulling in all of the different pieces of information that are available to them and 

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bring those to bear and make those work effectively even if they're just thinking 

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about what needs to happen to make that happen. Right? That's a step in the right direction. 

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Yeah. And I think, you know, there's that old saying about everybody thinks everybody else is doing it. Everybody thinks they're 

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doing it better than them. Literally, no one knows what they're doing. I mean, I think, you know, that can be said here 

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as well. There's lots of people lots of different marketers on lot lots of different 

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rungs of the journey. But has anyone has anyone marketer mastered it or or any 

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one digital agency completely figured it out? No. No. Long way to 

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go. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Well said. Of those that you're counseling 

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and not necessarily, you know, naming names now, but are there examples 

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out there that you see in the programmatic ads world where you're like, tip of the 

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cap, sir. Like, that's a phenomenal execution. That's a great way to think about 

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testing. That's a great way to think about creative. Is there any anyone in 

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particular that you kinda look to and say, okay. They seem to be on the right track? Yeah. I'd 

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say one of the things that we see that's just that that can be very valuable is 

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to organize as much of your stuff. That can mean a lot of different things, but 

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organize your business practices in as many places as possible. So 

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in many ways, this can mean marketing consolidation. When and where you can buy certain channels 

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in through specific platforms, that tends to be a good a good practice. Mhmm. 

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Recognizing that your the the the world has kind of expanded and narrowed 

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all at once. You have the large open web, and that is still a very valuable channel. And 

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then you have kind of again, you have our our unique butterflies, the YouTubes, the 

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TikToks, the Instagrams, which are absolutely must market channels for most 

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marketers. So what we also see too is the promise of prog programmatic gives 

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you this ability to buy lots of different channels, but really do it in a 

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efficient way. We haven't even talked about, like, acronyms and stuff like that, but, 

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you've got all of these different types of inventory, be it CTV, be it 

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video, be it traditional display, be it even native and text 

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and all kinds of different display types. Mhmm. Being able to buy those in 

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one place can create a lot of value and a lot of efficiency, and then it's really incumbent 

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upon the person doing that buying just to go and look and see, well, okay, what's working, what's 

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not. Right? What channels need to be expanded into? Where should we be moving our 

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investment around? Mhmm. And this is where programmatic, again, that it makes good on this promise 

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of a lot of predictive capability that lets you that lets you spend money 

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dynamically based on what's working the best. So you don't have to say, okay, five 

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grand for search, five grand for display, five grand for video. Let's see what happens 

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at the end. You get the ability to kind of move Yep. Give it the ability to to move dynamically, 

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and spend based on where you're seeing performance. And, again, that goes back to understanding your goals. 

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Out of curiosity for people maybe not in the inside baseball world a bit, How often 

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are these changes being made? You kind of alluded to, like, hey. You got a five k tranche that's being 

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allocated here and there, and we're gonna run it till the end of the week to see what's going on. But it sounds like 

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with programmatic, these decisions are make happening much faster than weekly, much 

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faster than daily. Can you elaborate on the speed at which some of those decisions are being made? 

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Yeah. It's fast. So I think if there is a call that happens to 

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a someone who's selling a piece of inventory and the bidding engine is 

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decide deciding whether or not they're gonna buy that impression, and they need to do that within a hundred millisecond. 

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So a lot happens in a hundred lot lot happens in a hundred milliseconds. I'm trying to think of, like, some, 

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the blink of an eye, but it's even faster than that. So if you think about all these things that are 

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happening, theoretically, what that does is free up time for you to go 

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and theoretically experiment more, right, or or understand Mhmm. Or spend a lot more time 

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doing analysis and not kind of be back and forth 

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manually adjusting the knobs and levers. Yes. Their optimization is absolutely 

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key. Mhmm. But, again, this is one of the one of the the primary benefits of programmatic is that it 

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does a lot of the decisioning, especially around bidding Yeah. And especially around kind 

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of different flavors of audience targeting. You can do that in a much more streamlined way and have lots of 

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baked in experiments as you know, right off the bat. That's awesome. And maybe 

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just finishing that thought around, you know, the speed is clearly there. It gives you 

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more insights. It gives you more chance to experiment across a number of different variables. 

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Maybe it what's an example of, like, an experiment that you're just really 

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a fan of from a from a programmatic view. It doesn't have to be, like, all the 

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mini you know, it doesn't have to be every variable, but what's, like, a what's one that you just think is, 

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like, if you're doing that, you're doing the right thing, and you're probably gonna get a good 

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learning out of that experiment if you're x y z brand trying to grow and and 

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scale programmatic. One of the things that's emerged relatively recently 

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is, this idea of predictive modeling. So this is 

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let's say, I am an insurance marketer. Let's say I'm a I'm a cell phone marketer. Right? And 

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somebody's on their plan. Yep. They have been very smart marketers for a long 

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time. And one of the things that they're paying a lot more attention to is what is the likelihood that one of 

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my customers is going to churn? No one's out there waving their hand being like, I'm done. 

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I'm done. That is not a signal that that these types of marketers can easily capture. 

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But with all the different data points that exist around that entire And if you 

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think about the volume and the scale that's available, we've seen some interesting things with, 

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with kind of the building churn models and things like that. But the thing that I wanna Love 

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that. Highlight there is that the barrier to entry to execute these things has 

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come way down over the last few years. Right? And so what you're 

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seeing is a lot more of these kind of data science practices be built up right 

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alongside of your existing kinda go to market Love it. Marketing 

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strategies. That's really cool. Yeah. It just seems like the 

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continued democratization of all out of the attribution, lift studies, 

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incrementality conversations. We've had some really good conversations on this spot about it. It sounds like 

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you're you're observing that in a big way. Yeah. And I'd say the the thing that I would close with 

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there is is what is the when you go back to kind of I mentioned baselines in the 

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beginning, think long term. Right? What we're trying to do is create a relationship with 

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the product and the consumer in a lot of ways. So what is the long term 

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value, the lifetime value of that relationship? And that varies immensely 

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from product to product. Some things are short consideration. Some things are longer consideration. 

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But you're seeing this a lot more where where brands are trying to create much more of a one 

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to one relationship and saying look we are going to be good stewards of your data We are going 

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to be responsible marketers, and we value this relationship. And in 

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exchange, let us know what you like, and we'll try to deliver 

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experiences that are meaningful to you meaningful to you as a as a consumer. 

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That's awesome. That's super helpful. Yeah. And maybe switching gears a little bit, we've talked a ton 

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about your observations and programmatic experiments and kind of delving more into 

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the life stuff. So you've had an awesome career in various great companies in the programmatic 

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space. Maybe I think folks would love to hear just some of your 

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observations, especially folks that are newer in their career in digital and performance marketing. What 

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are maybe some of the learnings and experiments of from your career perspective for Kinesis, if 

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you're navigating some very interesting and great roles. What what do you got for 

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us? Yeah. So, I mean, hopefully, at one point, I'll figure out kinda what I wanna be 

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when I grow up. Right? I think that's something that all of us kinda think about every single 

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day. Mhmm. I think there's lots of people who have a much better idea of what they want to 

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what they wanna be. I was not one of those people. And when I started in, we'll 

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call it advertising, I sold print advertising. And this was I 

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did that up until around two thousand four. And what I saw on that was 

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kind of the writing on the wall that, like, the digital advertising revolution 

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was going to was going to change the print world very much, and it absolutely did, 

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especially in the newspaper world, which is where I was. And that's kind of what kept me 

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close to this. I was like, okay, if that's the way it's headed, this is where I should you know, since I still don't 

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have any idea what I wanna do with my life, this is where I should I should probably stick with this because I have a basic 

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idea. And then, again, that change of of of this 

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kind of legacy analog print experience to the digital experience where, you 

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know, this beautiful promise of accountability. How many impressions did somebody see? 

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How many clicks did, did the campaign get? And, eventually, once we 

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started tracking conversions and things like that, you had all of this beautiful accountable 

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information. So much data. So much data. So many options. And it's 

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exploded, from there. That's cool. It's been quite a journey. 

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And the I'd say the one thing that I that I do enjoy about this space 

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is the fact that it is constantly changing. Right? The thing that you are doing one day 

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is not the neck or, you know, you're not doing that the next. We've seen these monumental shifts 

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Mhmm. Happen. Right? We've seen, we've seen this happen with, you know, the 

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rise of the Internet. Oh, great. The world's information is instantly accessible. Right? Then 

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along came the phone, and it's like, wait a minute. Yeah. World's information can be stored in my pocket, and I can take 

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it anywhere I want. And, oh, by the way, I can talk to anybody I want anywhere. And I think now we're 

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kinda entering one of these other big fundamental seismic shifts with, with 

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the arrival of, generative AI. And, you know, AI has been 

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around for a long time in lots of different flavors, but you're you know, we're seeing an entirely 

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new world with a lot of interesting possibilities. So we see a lot of 

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this applied in the advertising world, at least through predictive AI, and then we'll see how 

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generative AI kinda changes this down the line. So really interesting time to be 

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close to this. Yeah. That's, like, amazing. I mean, do do you think is 

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is AI kind of the answer for the so many questions I have and directions, but 

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is AI the answer for the lack of signal we're getting through privacy? So is 

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AI the step in and and enables marketers to see enough and be 

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predictive without giving the secret sauce away? I think one of the things, 

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you know, again, going back to those baselines, understanding what assets we have 

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access to, being smart about the change management required to make 

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sure we've got all of our ducks in a row from a marketer point of 

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view as possible. That gives you that kind of that seed, that baseline. Right? 

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And then from that, this is where the world is going to have to lean into kind of more of a more 

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of a a modeled future. Right? And understand, okay. What does we'll need to have 

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modeling to fill some of the conversion gaps? And, again, I think there'll be 

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different flavors of that, And I think it's important to understand again, this is why it's really important to 

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experiment now, understand kind of where you are now and then what those gaps actually look 

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like and how much do I need to rely on modeling in the future. And 

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most people will tell you, you know, the better the garbage in, garbage out. Right? The better 

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the source data, the better the model and the more reliable it can be. So I think 

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many marketers understand this, and they are really working on, you know, rewards like hygiene and 

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fidelity and things like that in terms of how they manage manage their 

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information and then how they're able to kind of bring it to bear. But nailed it with the modeling 

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thing. Like, it's it's here, and it's here to stay. Yeah. I love it. You know, that 

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transition you talked about back when you were working in print the old days, you 

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know, I I did a stint there too before getting into digital with you 

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back in the day. And do you think that that transition from print to digital 

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is gonna be is AI just massively bigger? Do you think it's 

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similar? Do you think what are your thoughts? I think in the terms of the shift, it's going to be 

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massive. I mean, you know, I don't know if you know if they're in Austin yet, but we have the 

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autonomous cars driving all over San Francisco. It's quite a thing. 

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You know? There's lots of people saying, hey. Some of these aren't so safe. We're kind of worried. You have people that 

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are, you know, lining up. All of them have wait lists in terms of people that want to sign up 

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for these services. So you're seeing already the ways that these 

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things are impacting our world in a very real and tangible 

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way. I think the I think the one thing that I would emphasize is that I am 

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not ever probably going to be a Python or c plus plus 

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engineering whiz. Mhmm. And so I can't just go use 

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AI to turn me into, you know, a master engineer. But what I can 

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do Mhmm. Is use it to to simplify and speed up some of 

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the day to day tasks that I'm doing. And, I mean, that can be as basic as help me 

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construct this email. Help me get meeting notes out and order 

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them in the different priorities. All kinds of different stuff you can I mean, that's, like, the basic 

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kind of administrative stuff that goes into a lot of things? But it's about making the 

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things that you can already do, do them better, and do them faster. And I think we'll continue to see some 

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of these really big seismic shifts. And I think, also, there's still a tremendously long way to 

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go. I think there's a lot of hype right now, and I think it's it's some of it is warranted, 

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but it Yeah. Takes a while to get there. Reminds me of the beginnings of the Internet, 

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which we we sort of witnessed in our senior age and, 

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not all of it. But, you know, the winners that were thought to be winners initially did not shake out that 

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way, which you and I know all too well. That, I imagine, will play out with AI. 

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Yeah. Yeah. But there are winners. There's always winners. Right? And so, you know, we see Always. 

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We see the different we see the different flavors of that. And, you know, we have the, 

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you know, we have the benefit of being able to go back and look at that. It's kinda hard. Right? Going back to the no hitter 

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thing that we are talking about. Sometimes when you're in the moment, you're like, there's a lot going on here, but I'm still just 

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watching a baseball game. You don't realize, you know, what the gravity of a thing is because 

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you're so deeply immersed in it. So it's good to be aware of, but I certainly 

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wouldn't walk around talking about how it's gonna it's here and it's completely landed. There's a long 

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way to go with, with how that plays out. Yeah. Valid. Just look at the results 

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sometimes when you when you test out the, prompts in chat GPT or 

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BARD. They're not always gonna give you the right answer. You gotta kinda edit, review, 

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improve, and, hope you know, we're we're not replaced just yet. 

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There's a lot of refinement that that takes place for sure. So yeah. And I think you actually just said 

401
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something that's really that comes up a lot. I just don't see I don't see a scenario. Yes. There 

402
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,400
will be some tasks and some jobs that will be automated out, and I 

403
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:18,500
that's another function of how the world operates. But I don't 

404
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:23,500
see this scenario where as of somebody who works in the marketing world, AI 

405
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:28,300
comes and takes my job. I look at it as something that is a companion that helps me actually do things 

406
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:33,200
better. And, but I still need to manage that as the as 

407
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,500
the owner of that program. Love it. Can't let the machines run the entire operation. 

408
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,900
No way. Yeah. And really important question I think a lot of people are curious about. 

409
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:48,300
Are the Ravens going to break the Niners' hearts yet again in the Super 

410
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:52,100
Bowl this year? I hope so. But it's, 

411
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:58,100
I really hope so. Oh, I I gotta. But football's hard. 

412
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:02,700
A lot of injuries, a lot of lot of unknown unknowns. You know? 

413
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:07,600
So it's, it's Strikes and gutters. And any given Sunday, you know, all 

414
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,600
your tropes Ups and downs. Hold true. I would love to see it. I'm really excited about Lamar Jackson. I think they've got 

415
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,500
an interesting offensive core. I think their defense is, okay. I 

416
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:22,500
worry about their ability to pressure the quarterback, which I feel like is just 

417
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:27,300
an absolute must have if you're gonna succeed in the modern NFL game. 

418
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But I'm, I'm forever optimistic, but I'm not, I'm 

419
00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:37,100
not I'm not holding my breath on any magic happening. I'll be cautiously optimistic. 

420
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,700
I like that. Who are you drafting? Who are you avoiding? Who's on your hot list? Oh, man. So 

421
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:47,700
fantasy base fantasy football. I don't even know what fantasy baseball yet, which, you 

422
00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:52,700
know, I don't know if I should talk about that publicly. But, Let's maybe save that for 

423
00:34:52,700 --> 00:34:57,400
another episode. Right. A lot of what I've learned about, the 

424
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:02,300
lessons of digital advertising and baseball go hand in hand. You generate lots and 

425
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:07,300
lots of data. You get lots of points to look at, and I'm not the one crunching the data. 

426
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:12,200
I'm just making decisions with the information that I have. And based on that, 

427
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,100
I, you know, I'm taking running backs early, and I'm taking running backs from 

428
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:21,700
wide receivers and quarterbacks late. That has been a winning strategy for many 

429
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:26,500
years, and, it's all about staying alive. Serve you well. Staying alive in the survivor pool. 

430
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:31,500
That's the I think that's the most fun because that's every week, it's just, win and 

431
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:36,400
move on or lose and go home. Yeah. Every week's a Super Bowl and a Survivor Bowl. 

432
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:40,300
You know, that's a lessons in life there too. You know? 

433
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:47,300
So you're a dad. You got two adorable boys. I'm I'm a little bit newer to the dad game. 

434
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:52,400
What's your secret? How do you, how do you stay sane and and manage it all, Canis? 

435
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,000
Let's see. Lots of, veggies, earplugs when I sleep. 

436
00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:03,100
Veggies for you? Veggies for the kids? What? For me. For me. You know? So 

437
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:08,300
k. Sleep is your, you know, sleep is your friend. I probably need to increase my veggie intake. 

438
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Doesn't doesn't hurt to do that too. Sleep is the thing. And I think one of the things I would say is, 

439
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,400
so balancing the work. Right? So parenting equity is something that I care a 

440
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,400
lot about. And, dads have better lives when they share more 

441
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,900
of the load or, you know, anybody who's in a caregiver situation when you can 

442
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,300
when you are able to kinda share the different responsibilities and things like that, I think it 

443
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:38,300
it makes for a a more functioning household. And, you know, I think one 

444
00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:42,800
of the things too is, like, let the kids have some fun. We are not those dogmatic 

445
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:47,700
parents who tell them you'd spend so much time on screens. Screens are a part of our 

446
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:52,600
world. Right? So you gotta choose your gotta choose your battles and would seem high and 

447
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,500
mighty. Yeah. Right? We all have flashbacks to to parents yelling at us about being on the telephone. Right? But, 

448
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,700
like, technology is there. They should master it. Too close to the television. Right. That's a 

449
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:07,300
whole different that is bad parenting. Right? You should not be so close to the to the thing that, 

450
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:12,200
yes. That Damn it. That will that will have long long term negative impacts 

451
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:17,300
for sure. Kenice Murphy, great, great human, 

452
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:22,100
always there to support teammates, friends, family, and, really appreciate you 

453
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:26,400
jumping on the pod to talk experiments, talk baseball, 

454
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:31,900
talk programmatic ads. It's been a pleasure. Yeah. I would say thank you so much for inviting 

455
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:36,900
me. I'd say if there's one magical takeaway from all of this, I would say, if you don't 

456
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:41,500
have a culture of experimentation, you need to change that culture. And so what is the change 

457
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:46,400
management that your organization needs to think about in order to build a 

458
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:51,100
culture of experimentation around everything you do? I love that 

459
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:56,100
music to my ears, and, where can folks find you if they wanna learn more about all 

460
00:37:56,100 --> 00:38:00,500
things Knees? Jeez. I don't know. I maintain a pretty low profile, but I'm on, 

461
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:05,300
LinkedIn. Kenice Murphy. Lovely. All one word. Maybe they'll run into you at the next no 

462
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:10,300
hitter at Giants, baseball. It was really something. It was really cool. I've never I've never 

463
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:15,100
been I've been, complete game shutout, but I've never been, like, all the way to the 

464
00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:20,100
last batter of the game. And it was just it it was wild. You can feel it. You 

465
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:24,600
can absolutely feel it. Like, I'm still feeling it just talking about it. So 

466
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:29,700
That's amazing. I'm glad you got to experience it. Hopefully, another opportunity arises. Yeah. Yeah. 

467
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:34,600
Lovely. Can't wait to see you again in, the Bay Area, and, have an awesome, 

468
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:39,200
long relaxing Labor Day weekend. Thanks, everybody. Will do. Alright. Thanks, Ty.