WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:03.680 You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:06.440 couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun in 3 00:00:06.559 --> 00:00:14.919 practical ways. Hey, everybody, welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Bible guys. Man. 4 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:16.879 It's good to be back. It's another amazing week. 5 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:19.960 It is an amazing week. In fact, we are doing 6 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.199 something that we promised that we were going to do. 7 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:23.519 We're actually keeping our promises. 8 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:26.399 Jeff, Yes, which is I think an important thing for 9 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:29.239 us to start doing. We should start. We're starting now. 10 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:33.159 I'm gonna start right now because in the past not 11 00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:33.759 so much. 12 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:36.759 But we're going to start keeping our promises. Yeah. But hey, 13 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:39.799 before that, you you had some fun with your with 14 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:41.280 your family this weekend. 15 00:00:41.439 --> 00:00:45.320 I did. I did so, interestingly enough. I went down 16 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.759 to finally go to the Steve Martin Martin Short concert 17 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:53.119 in Clearwater, Florida, which is last. 18 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:54.600 Year you got canceled. 19 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:57.280 Yeah, literally in November. This was this was a year 20 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.039 in the making. You had said on the Bible You're like, oh, 21 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:03.200 I saw Steve Martin Martin Short, and I'm like, darn it, 22 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:05.879 I missed it, right, And then somebody had sent me 23 00:01:06.599 --> 00:01:08.519 by way of instant messenger and they said, hey, they're 24 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:10.719 still playing in clear Water in January. It was the 25 00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:13.519 only show left. So I bought it because my daughter 26 00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:16.560 lives down there and it was her birthday. So I 27 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:20.079 spent a good amount of money. I bought two excellent seats, 28 00:01:20.359 --> 00:01:21.799 and I thought, Okay, I'm gonna fly down there and 29 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:24.840 we're gonna do a daddy daughter date, which. 30 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:26.599 And you have a grown up daughter. She's married. 31 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:27.560 Yeah, she's thirty one. 32 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.920 So you you had a daddy daughter date with your 33 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:32.959 grown daughter. Yes, what a good idea, Yes. 34 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:37.120 A great idea. So so anyway, the day before the 35 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:41.359 La fires happens, happened, and Martin Short's house gets burned out, 36 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:44.560 so they cancel everything. They rescheduled from January all the 37 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:45.359 way to October. 38 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:48.480 October fifth, Well, I wish he'd planned that better, you 39 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:50.760 know what I mean, Come on, Martin, if you're gonna 40 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:54.159 burn your house down, wait until after christ It wasn't. 41 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.719 I'm pretty sure it wasn't, Martin Short. No, okay, but anyway, 42 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.120 so now it's a year in the making, and so 43 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.480 like almost a year later, I finally go down and 44 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:05.200 I said, you know what, this better be good. 45 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:07.319 And it was. It was really good. 46 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.360 It good Martin, Steve Martin, and Martin Short, but especially 47 00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:13.759 Steve Martin is so sophisticated in a humor and I 48 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:17.240 think I think he is my favorite all time comedian. 49 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.400 I think he's substantially funnier today than he was when 50 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.319 he got famous in the seventies. Well, he's timing, it's 51 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:26.039 so much better than Yeah, it was more slapstick. 52 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:27.479 Yeah, and lot of that. But like, if you ever 53 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:29.960 watched even really really funny things sort of go out 54 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.520 of style, yeah, sure, right, even the Brian Reagan things 55 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:36.039 that we watched twenty years ago that were so funny, 56 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:37.840 you watch it now and you're like, oh, humor's changed. 57 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:41.439 Yeah, yeah right, So but his timing is perfect, his 58 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:43.560 dry wit is fabulous. 59 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:43.919 Yeah. 60 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.199 And then Martin Short does such a good job of 61 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:49.680 kind of being the goofball, yeah, you know, trying to 62 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:52.879 live up to Steve Martin's sophistication. Yes, so funny man, Yes, 63 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:53.159 it was. 64 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:55.199 It was super good, great And who would have thought. 65 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:56.560 I mean, you go there and you spend all that 66 00:02:56.599 --> 00:02:59.800 money and Steve Martin's eighty and Martin Short's seventy five, 67 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:01.879 and you're like, this is gonna be a great night. 68 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:04.840 Yeah, And they're running around like a bunch of sixty 69 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:05.240 years Ye. 70 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.520 I'm telling you amazing. I'm so glad that you got 71 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:13.039 to do that. You so Hey, this week, we are 72 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:16.719 keeping a promise, Yes, and we are doing the entire 73 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.759 week with stumped the pastor questions. People send in questions. 74 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.039 We don't always get to all of them, but people 75 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:23.759 send them in. We had a bunch of really good 76 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.560 questions sent in this week. Yeah, and one of the 77 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.080 questions got sent in, and it's not on this list, 78 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:33.000 thank goodness, because I didn't want to talk about it. 79 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.360 But now I find myself bringing it up. One of 80 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:37.439 the questions we had. Somebody asked, so, how did it 81 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:40.599 turn out in the fantasy football between me and Desiree? 82 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:44.960 Oh yeah, And the answer is Desiree is dominant. 83 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:46.840 And she dislough delroyed my team. 84 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:47.599 Everybody. 85 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:51.919 She destroyed my team. It was so bad. So I'm 86 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.000 not able to talk directly to Desiree for all last week. 87 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.520 I would walk in and whoever else was in the office, 88 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:59.080 I would say, hey, could you tell Desiree I need 89 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:01.840 whatever writ in front of But now we're back to talking. 90 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:03.520 I talked to her this morning. Okay, we're fine, I 91 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:04.919 forgave her because it was a week later. 92 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:05.759 But that's really fun. 93 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.080 Yeah, so that was number one. So keeping our promises. 94 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:10.400 Stumped the pastor how did it go? Between Jeff and desire? 95 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:12.759 Fantasy Football has killed me? 96 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.280 So every day this week we are going to also 97 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.319 invite you, if you like this segment, especially to send 98 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:22.199 in a question that you don't have, so just email 99 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:24.680 us at info at the Bible guys dot com. Hopefully 100 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:25.879 we can put it right there on the screen if 101 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.120 you're watching info at the Bible Guys dot com. Or 102 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:31.480 you can just comment on a YouTube video or something 103 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:33.959 that you're watching if it allows comments, and we'll be 104 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:38.680 glad to read those and consider those for perhaps future episodes. Yeah. 105 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:42.720 Good. So this first question, Chris, I think, is it 106 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:47.279 really fun these kinds of things. I love these historical pieces. 107 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.680 So Bill F brings it up. So Hi, Bill, Hey, Bill, 108 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:54.160 Bill F, thank you for asking this first question on 109 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:58.120 the first inaugural episode of Stump the pastor with the 110 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:02.399 Bible Guys. And here's here's his question says, not necessarily 111 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:04.360 part of the Bible, but do you believe the shroud 112 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.800 of Turin is genuine? Or is it a hoax or 113 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:08.839 just art. 114 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:11.800 Here piece of artwork? 115 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:13.279 Sincere piece of artwork? 116 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:17.839 Yeah, well that's an interesting question. And by the way, 117 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.519 if I'm sure that there are readers that have absolutely 118 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:27.319 zero idea what the shroud of Turin is, right, So, 119 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.240 the shroud of Turin is a linen cloth approximately fourteen 120 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:34.319 feet long by three and a half feet wide, burying 121 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:38.480 the faint brownish image of a crucified man, believed by 122 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.160 some Catholics. Is how it reads here to be the 123 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.319 actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ. However, scientific scientific studies, 124 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:51.759 including nineteen eighty eight radiocarbon dating, place the shrouds origin 125 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:58.519 in the Middle Level period at twelve sixty it says 126 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.360 ce dating dating, and then it says the exact method 127 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:07.439 of image creation remains a scientific mystery, with various hypotheses 128 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:11.560 including radiation, artistic creation, or even a combination of methods. 129 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.639 But the process that created this unique photographic negative image 130 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.240 with no apparent pigments or dies is not fully understood. 131 00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:24.839 So basically it is if you believe that it is 132 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:31.480 a genuine artifact of Jesus, then you believe that it 133 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.600 is the strips of linen that were wrapped around Jesus. 134 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.120 Yeah. In John chapter twenty, it mentions when Peter and 135 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.639 John run into the tomb, and it says, then Peter 136 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.120 arrived Simon Peter rabb and went inside the tomb, and 137 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.680 he also noticed the linen wrappings lying there, while the 138 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.240 cloth that had covered jesus head was folded up and 139 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.920 lying apart from the other wrappings. So the Bible acknowledges 140 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.920 that Jesus was wrapped up. Imagine kind of like a mummy, right, 141 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.000 kind of like that, but it was one big sheet 142 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:04.120 wrapped up, so they would have bundled his body up 143 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:07.959 under one big sheet, which was traditional. And then also 144 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:09.240 the Bible acknowledge. 145 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.079 Is that Luke chapter twenty four in the other Gospel, 146 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.279 first number twelve also says the same. 147 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:19.480 Thing, same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, I like 148 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:27.000 this stuff. I like archaeology. I like all of these things. Historically, 149 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:31.040 I watch, you know, documentaries and things like that. I 150 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:35.759 bet you I've probably watched fifteen documentaries on this. I've 151 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:37.160 probably read that. 152 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:38.600 Is actually fifteen more than me. 153 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.279 Yeah, all I thinks, and it's always interesting. 154 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:43.600 To me, which, by the way, let me let me 155 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:46.720 squeeze this. In John chapter nineteen, verse forty actually talks 156 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:50.040 about them wrapping Jesus' body. It says, taking Jesus body, 157 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.639 the two of them wrapped it with spices and with 158 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.439 strips of linen. This was in accordance to Jewish burial customs. 159 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:01.160 So a few of the facts that they that everybody 160 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:07.920 agrees on. This is clearly the image is of a 161 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:14.959 crucified man whose body had been through tremendous stress. Right, 162 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:19.600 so almost everybody, yeah, trauma. Everybody acknowledges that part of it. 163 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.920 The other thing that everybody acknowledges, those for it and 164 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.959 those against it. Every scientist who goes it's fake, every 165 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.560 one of them admits nobody knows how to make it. 166 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:32.840 So as sophisticated as we are proving that it's fake, 167 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:37.440 we're not sophisticated enough to reproduce it. So I've always 168 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.279 thought that was interesting. It always feels to me as 169 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:44.159 I read the documents or watch the documentaries, it always 170 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.480 feels to me that if the speaker believes it, or 171 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:51.559 if the interviewer believes it, it's all skewed. This is true, 172 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:55.720 and if they don't, it's all strongly skewed. It's not true. 173 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:57.399 That seems to be how it does. 174 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:02.120 Before this podcast art, I looked it up and I 175 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.799 was trying to google it, and then, of course, you know, Wikipedia, 176 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:05.879 the most reliable thing on the. 177 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:07.559 Internet, absolutely reliable. 178 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:10.879 It came up and it was interesting because it listed 179 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:12.919 and again I mean, it's just edited by people, right, 180 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:17.600 but it was interesting because it listed that it was 181 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:20.440 the evidence stemmed all the way back to the twelve hundreds, 182 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:25.799 as was mentioned six yeah, and then somewhere around thirteen 183 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.600 forty eight or somewhere right around there, I think it was. 184 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.200 It was what I read said that it was then 185 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.879 proven to be a forgery and it was like painted. 186 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:40.240 But then somebody came along after that and couldn't, like 187 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:44.519 you said, couldn't identify how it could be, and they 188 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:46.720 did that through like masking tape and they took like 189 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.879 samples off of it, and it was just really interesting. 190 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.320 How you know, it's listing, you know, how people have 191 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.639 gone back and forth on this thing. But like you said, yeah, yeah. 192 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:01.759 People, so the Catholic Church protects this this thing now substantially. 193 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:03.919 There was a period of time where it was just 194 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:09.159 in a trunk in a cathedral, right and after the Crusades, 195 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.240 and then they pull it out and go, oh my gosh, 196 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:16.440 this is the shout of turn. So so the Catholic 197 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:19.279 Church protects it substantially. Now it's getting so old that 198 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.080 you know, they're afraid of it deteriorating. The carbon dating. 199 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.080 The main carbon dating was back in the eighties and 200 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:29.879 the Catholic Church one allowed them to take just a 201 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.840 couple of tiny samples, and the one that they used 202 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.799 for the dating, the Catholic Church claims that they used 203 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:40.559 a patch. It wasn't the actual main portion of the 204 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.159 of the thing. So they're frustrated with that. There's been others, 205 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:47.240 so there are some that are coming out and they're going, 206 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:49.279 absolutely it's a forgery. We just don't know how they 207 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.399 did it. There is no paint on it. It clearly 208 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:57.279 is a negative image of some sort. Maybe it was heat. 209 00:10:57.519 --> 00:10:59.679 Some people think maybe it was it was created by 210 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.000 some of a heat on there. You know, could they 211 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.000 heat up a statue and then wrap it with this 212 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:07.399 fabric and then you know, get the same kind of 213 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.080 a thing. It's it's kind of it's interesting, but here. 214 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:16.399 Just recently in August of twenty twenty five, a group 215 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.240 of scientists came back and said that the coloring. There's 216 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:25.360 clotted blood on it, and it appears that the body 217 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:30.840 was ritually cleaned or cleansed, and the clotted blood would 218 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:36.399 be after death, right, not before. And so they're saying 219 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:40.519 this isn't a painting because you know, they found cloud 220 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:42.639 of blood or whatever, so they have that. Another one, 221 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.519 another scientist in October of twenty twenty five, came out 222 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.559 and said that there appears to be. 223 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:50.200 Twenty five like this. 224 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:56.279 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that there appears to be negative evidence 225 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:58.639 of teeth, you know, in that like an X ray, 226 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:00.759 only it's a neg at a X ray, so it's 227 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:03.120 out instead of in. And he says he thinks that 228 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.360 that's evidence of the fact that this was energy and 229 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.240 light emitting from the body that was wrapped in it 230 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:11.279 rather than being imposed on the linen. It was shot 231 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:13.039 out at the linen, right. 232 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:16.960 So, which wouldn't make sense unless the body could glow. 233 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.759 Yeah, so you get you get both sides, both sides. 234 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.799 You get scientists going Nope, the fabric is too it 235 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:27.360 is wrong, it's too new or whatever, and others go, no, 236 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:29.720 you tested the wrong part of the fabric. So it 237 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:31.639 goes back and forth. But here's what I know Jesus 238 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:34.320 says this. You know, you and I We've been in 239 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.639 cathedrals all around the world. I've been in I was 240 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:40.519 just in another cathedral a couple of weeks ago. They 241 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:42.720 have all these relics, and people come up and they 242 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:45.279 touch the relics and they weep over the relics, and yeah, 243 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.600 they're hoping for good luck, right from these these relics 244 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:53.399 blessing or yeah. Yeah, And well, if you're touching a 245 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.159 thing and hoping for blessing, what you're hoping for is 246 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:58.720 good luck, right, that's what that's what that's what you're wanting. 247 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:01.159 It's the same thing as touching the best you're hoping 248 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.080 Buddha bless you. But really we both know it's just 249 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:03.799 asking for luck. 250 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.200 Well, by the way, that's a deeper conversation too, because 251 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:10.519 because people there's a lot of people that would have 252 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.480 anybody ever come up to you and said, here, bless 253 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:16.720 this object. Yeah right, and so that's a whole other conversation. 254 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:22.799 Right, right, So I was so maybe one of my favorite, 255 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:28.360 and this is crazy, the Coptic Church in Egypt. They 256 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:32.360 were founded by Mark the Apostle, or the writer of 257 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:38.799 the Book of Mark. Right, it's the oldest NonStop church 258 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.000 on the planet is the Coptic Church. And they have 259 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:45.799 the bones of Saint Mark. And they've had the bones 260 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.879 of Saint Mark since he died, he was martyred in Alexandria. 261 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:50.960 They've had him all this time. 262 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:52.840 Wasn't he dragged behind a horse, Yeah. 263 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:57.320 Something like that. So they had him. Well. Then when 264 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:01.879 Venice was getting rich back in the early medieval to 265 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:06.799 mid medieval times, they realize, man, what we need is 266 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:09.080 in order to build a big cathedral, we need like 267 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.559 a patron saint. We need a saint to take care 268 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.120 of us and to give a focus to our nation. 269 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:20.639 And so they sent some merchants down and some mercenaries, 270 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.840 and they stole half the body of Mark, right they 271 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.519 put they put the body in uh in these barrels 272 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.759 and snucking back, and now they have half the bones 273 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:35.320 in Venice. Right. So when you and so that's Saint 274 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:38.360 Mark's cathedral in Venice is because there's part of the 275 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:42.600 bones of Saint Mark in Venice. So there's this real 276 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:47.200 odd obsession throughout Christianity to get a hold of the relics. 277 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:49.039 I'm not going to be able to sleep knowing that 278 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:50.720 half of Mark bodies is gone. 279 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.519 Yeah, yeah, it's Egypt. Half of it's in Venice. 280 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.840 I would have preferred for somebody to steal all the bones. 281 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.600 And they have in the the murals up on the 282 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:04.840 walls in Saint Mark's Cathedral upon the exterior, it shows 283 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.840 the story of them bringing these things back to the 284 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.799 body back in barrels. Yeah. So anyways, that to be said, 285 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:18.080 there's been this odd obsession of Christianity that man, here's 286 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.320 a nail, here's a here's a splindor of the wood 287 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.679 from the cross, here's a cup that caught the blood 288 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.879 of Christ. Here's here's here's the bones of Saint Mark. 289 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.519 Somehow there's good luck on that found that one. Yeah, yeah, 290 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.919 he found that one. And and and there's nowhere in 291 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.840 the Bible that says to venerate these things. Right. As 292 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:38.960 matter of fact, God says everything on this earth is 293 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:40.519 going to pass away some day. It's all gonna be gone, 294 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:42.480 it's all gonna be obliterated, right right, And. 295 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.120 So Jesus says, except for ark of the Covenant, yeah. 296 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:47.240 Right, yeah, in heaven, in heaven. 297 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:47.600 Yeah. 298 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:52.320 So in John chapter twenty, Jesus says, you believe because 299 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:56.240 you've seen me blessed are those who believe without seeing me. 300 00:15:56.879 --> 00:16:00.639 So whether the Shroud of Turn is true, whether it's 301 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:02.879 real or a hoax, we don't put our faith and 302 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:06.960 trust in a shroud or in we we put our 303 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:09.240 faith and trust in in the one we think was 304 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.840 in the trout, the stroud, the shroud, right, or if 305 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:14.000 that's what you believe. So, yeah, it's it's it's not 306 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:15.960 in a relic. It's on the resurrection. That's where we 307 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:16.519 have our faith. 308 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.080 So ultimately, I mean a lot of times stumps the 309 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.639 pastor question normally would end in I don't know, right, yeah, 310 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:26.039 but here's my opinion. Here all the facts. So it's 311 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:28.679 good conversation, and sometimes it is that we know right. 312 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.559 But but ultimately, what we're saying is we're saying, whether 313 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.799 it's real or not, it doesn't matter. That's what you're saying. 314 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.320 You're saying, you're saying it could be real because certainly, listen, 315 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.320 I have not watched any documentary on the Shroud of Turren, 316 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:45.799 not a single one. I've seen it referenced before. I've 317 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:48.480 not sat down and watched it. I'm probably seeing clips on. 318 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.639 It seen like so much as I think most most 319 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.240 people and I. 320 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.960 Would, and I would definitely say this. I have very 321 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.440 much a skeptic mind, right. 322 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:00.279 Yeah, me too, So I. 323 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:04.920 Would say, can God allow a piece of cloth to 324 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.440 exist for two thousand years after Jesus rose from the 325 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:12.119 grave just because he wants there to be evidence of 326 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:14.559 like you know, of course he can do that absolutely, 327 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.960 But it doesn't seem to go along with anything that 328 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:24.039 God lines up with faith? Right, So God doesn't. God 329 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.440 doesn't you know, He's not going to jump off a 330 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.359 building and called legion of angels to swoop and save him. 331 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.599 He's you know, he's he chooses to appear to Thomas, 332 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:37.240 he chooses to resurrect Lazarus and not other people. I mean, 333 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:39.799 God is very selective in what he does to make 334 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:42.599 people go, oh my goodness, that's the son of God. 335 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:43.440 There's the proof. 336 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:49.400 But for us modern you know, postmodern church people, you know, 337 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:53.279 he says, bless her you who do not see and 338 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:57.000 yet still believe, and he asks us to go on faith, 339 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.599 He asks us to trust his promises. Right, So, it 340 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.319 wouldn't seem to me that a shroud of turin or 341 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.519 anything like that would actually line up with anything that 342 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:07.319 has to do with faith. 343 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.559 It certainly isn't necessary. Right, So I think my response 344 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:17.920 to this question from Bill is maybe maybe it'd be neat. 345 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:20.599 It'd be neat if it's real, but it doesn't matter. 346 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.880 In my response to the question would be probably not. 347 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:27.119 Yeah. Well I think my response is probably probably not also, 348 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.039 but maybe yeah, it's kind of neat. It'd be cool 349 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:32.640 if it was. They'd be okay, if they ever find 350 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.759 the Noah's Ark, that'd be cool. There's a guy right 351 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:37.440 now who thinks he's found that Noah's Ark, right, So okay, 352 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.400 that'd be cool. I don't need it, but that's cool, right, right, 353 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.839 And so it's the same. So hey, if you're looking 354 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.480 for help along some of these lines of discerning what's 355 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:47.559 true and what's not and all those things, I would 356 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:50.279 say two things. Josh and Sean McDowell wrote the New 357 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.079 Evidence for the New Evidence that demands a verdict. I 358 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:56.599 love it. It kind of helps you dig through a 359 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.240 bunch of questions answers like that. And then I think 360 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.559 along those same lines as far as just critical thinking 361 00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:05.880 and research and those things, especially, how do you embrace 362 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.839 faith without absolute proofs All the time, I still think 363 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.000 the case for Christ and that whole argument by least 364 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.519 robel is tremendous. So either one of those books or 365 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.839 both might be really really helpful to you. So that's one. Okay, 366 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.079 here's the second one. We just have six minutes and 367 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:20.319 I think we've got enough time for this one. 368 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:20.640 Really. 369 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:25.000 Yeah, as believers, how do we navigate our supportive Israel 370 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:26.519 the country versus Israel the people? 371 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:35.920 Yeah? Yeah, So Israel is, by the way, both a 372 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:37.839 state and it is a country. 373 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:42.440 Did you know that, Yes? And so Israel and biblically 374 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:43.319 it's a group of people. 375 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:46.440 Yes, And biblically is a group of people. So it 376 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.000 is referred to as the Jewish people, right. 377 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:50.480 The Hebrew people, the Hebrews people. 378 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.400 Yeah, And so how do we navigate the question exactly 379 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:55.799 is how do we navigate? 380 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:58.759 Yeah? Yeah, So how do we navigate our support of 381 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.960 the people versus is the country? Right as well? The 382 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:02.880 people versus Israel. 383 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.519 Well, it's a it's such a tangled tapestry, isn't it. 384 00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.319 They seem they seem to sort of go together because 385 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:12.960 you know, the conflict in the Middle East is it's 386 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:16.440 one of the running jokes that all comedians use. They're like, so, 387 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:17.640 I don't know what to say. So what do you 388 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:19.000 think about the conflict in the Middle East? 389 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:20.799 Right, it's always happening, and. 390 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:22.759 It's always there, and it's and it's age old. So 391 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.759 when I was over in Israel in two thousand and nine, 392 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.599 I actually sat down at Bethlehem Bible College and they 393 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:35.400 brought in somebody from the Palestine position, and they actually 394 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:39.279 tried to build a case as to what the promises 395 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.880 were given by God to the people of Abraham and 396 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:45.839 the nation of Israel, and and they actually like used 397 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.720 all of it to support the fact that that the 398 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:53.519 land was for Palestine, like it's Palestine's land. And then 399 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:55.880 there were people that they brought in from you know, 400 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.559 that were Jewish, they were acidic Jews actually, and they 401 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.000