WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.250 --> 00:00:10.500 I'm Travis Bader, and this is The 00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:11.670 Silvercore Podcast. 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:15.150 Join me as I discuss matters related to 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:17.700 hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits with the 00:00:17.700 --> 00:00:20.100 people in businesses that comprise the community. 00:00:20.880 --> 00:00:22.770 If you're a new to Silvercore, be sure to 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:27.180 check out our website, www.Silvercore.ca we can 00:00:27.180 --> 00:00:29.730 learn more about courses, services and products 00:00:29.730 --> 00:00:31.830 that we offer as well as how you can join The 00:00:31.830 --> 00:00:34.140 Silvercore Club, which includes 10 million 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:36.580 in north America wide liability insurance, to 00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:38.820 ensure you are properly covered during your 00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:39.720 outdoor adventures. 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:47.430 Today I'm joined by wind surfer, helicopter 00:00:47.430 --> 00:00:50.400 pilot, tech inventor, filmmaker, and founder 00:00:50.400 --> 00:00:52.890 of the revolutionary company, Red6, which 00:00:52.890 --> 00:00:56.310 uses an airborne tactical augmented reality system 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:57.870 to train fighter pilots. 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.510 Welcome to The Silvercore Podcast, my 00:01:00.510 --> 00:01:01.970 friend, Nick Bicanic. 00:01:02.910 --> 00:01:03.690 Hey Travis. 00:01:03.750 --> 00:01:05.040 Thanks for having me on the podcast. 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:06.630 It's been a long time since we first met 00:01:06.660 --> 00:01:08.400 back in that, uh, I think it was the 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.280 firearm safety course in British Columbia. 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:10.780 Oh my god. 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:12.210 It's been forever since then. 00:01:12.240 --> 00:01:12.780 It's been what? 00:01:12.780 --> 00:01:14.400 15, 16 years. 00:01:14.790 --> 00:01:15.990 No, we're not supposed to say that. 00:01:15.990 --> 00:01:17.640 Cause that makes us seem older than 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:18.310 we actually are. 00:01:18.660 --> 00:01:19.980 It's been, it's been awhile, definitely 00:01:19.980 --> 00:01:20.760 over a decade. 00:01:21.010 --> 00:01:22.290 Ahh, it's been a hot minute if we're going 00:01:22.290 --> 00:01:23.820 to use the parlance of today's youth. 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:24.510 That's right. 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:24.890 Yeah. 00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:27.690 And I remember, I remember helping you pack 00:01:28.485 --> 00:01:31.725 to move down to LA and that it doesn't seem that 00:01:31.725 --> 00:01:35.415 long ago, but you've done so much with your time. 00:01:35.745 --> 00:01:38.565 Well, I guess since I first met you and since 00:01:38.565 --> 00:01:42.045 moving down to LA, it's been just amazing. 00:01:42.045 --> 00:01:45.045 I, I don't know where to begin, but I think 00:01:45.045 --> 00:01:49.395 maybe a fun place to start would be where we 00:01:49.395 --> 00:01:51.315 first met, which would have been on, uh, one 00:01:51.315 --> 00:01:53.655 of the basic firearms courses that we have 00:01:53.655 --> 00:01:54.525 up here in Canada. 00:01:55.065 --> 00:01:57.585 And you did really well on that course, 00:01:58.305 --> 00:01:59.835 finish up the course and said, you know, 00:02:00.045 --> 00:02:02.295 I'm looking for some more advanced training. 00:02:02.295 --> 00:02:04.545 Is there anywhere around that that 00:02:04.545 --> 00:02:05.384 you'd recommend? 00:02:05.384 --> 00:02:08.745 And I jokingly said, hey, head over to Calgary. 00:02:08.745 --> 00:02:11.055 There's a zero to hero, one week, become 00:02:11.055 --> 00:02:11.954 a mercenary course. 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:15.570 And before I knew it, you were up there with a film 00:02:15.570 --> 00:02:19.230 crew and it just kinda took on legs of its own. 00:02:19.230 --> 00:02:20.309 Did you want to talk about that? 00:02:21.149 --> 00:02:21.690 Yeah. 00:02:21.720 --> 00:02:23.790 The, the project that, that ended up 00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:26.820 becoming, uh, was called Shadow Company, it, 00:02:26.820 --> 00:02:28.920 it actually did that spectacularly well, it 00:02:28.920 --> 00:02:31.560 was my first ever long form documentary film. 00:02:32.130 --> 00:02:35.924 And the basic idea was that I had the, I had, 00:02:35.924 --> 00:02:37.885 I had a couple of good friends who had joined 00:02:37.885 --> 00:02:40.734 the military, but one in particular, who I went 00:02:40.734 --> 00:02:43.285 to university with, he joined the British army. 00:02:43.615 --> 00:02:44.695 Uh, he was the infantry. 00:02:44.755 --> 00:02:46.615 Um, and after spending a couple of years in 00:02:46.615 --> 00:02:49.555 the infantry with the usual deployments, uh, 00:02:49.704 --> 00:02:51.505 I think they had Arctic warfare training in 00:02:51.505 --> 00:02:54.084 Canada and they had some stuff in Northern Ireland 00:02:54.084 --> 00:02:56.454 as the usual rotations for British infantry. 00:02:57.055 --> 00:02:59.875 Uh, he left, uh, he'd been a lawyer, and he 00:02:59.875 --> 00:03:01.795 left and he was looking for something else to do. 00:03:01.795 --> 00:03:03.204 And looking for adventurous, he ended 00:03:03.204 --> 00:03:05.605 up working as a security contractor, uh, in 00:03:05.605 --> 00:03:09.144 particular, he was going to look at a job in 00:03:09.445 --> 00:03:12.625 Nigeria, uh, guarding, guarding diamond mines, 00:03:12.984 --> 00:03:14.845 but for whatever reason, that didn't quite work 00:03:14.845 --> 00:03:16.315 out, although I was supposed to come and 00:03:16.315 --> 00:03:18.175 spend a bit of time with him while he was there. 00:03:18.685 --> 00:03:20.785 So one day he called me and he said, you 00:03:20.785 --> 00:03:22.584 know, forget Nigeria, we're going to Iraq. 00:03:23.155 --> 00:03:23.995 And I said, what are you going to do? 00:03:23.995 --> 00:03:25.734 And he goes, yeah, we're going to guard, you 00:03:25.734 --> 00:03:27.685 know, the ministry of oil, guard refineries. 00:03:28.225 --> 00:03:29.995 This there's like tens of thousands 00:03:29.995 --> 00:03:30.775 of contractors here. 00:03:30.785 --> 00:03:32.155 I'm like really tens of thousands because 00:03:32.155 --> 00:03:35.155 at the time it wasn't talked about as, as 00:03:35.155 --> 00:03:37.165 big a phenomenon as it eventually became. 00:03:38.155 --> 00:03:40.435 This was prior to the Blackwater Fallujah 00:03:40.435 --> 00:03:42.355 episode and the poor guys getting hung 00:03:42.355 --> 00:03:44.755 off the bridge and prior to a number of 00:03:44.755 --> 00:03:46.435 different incidents that, that brought the 00:03:46.435 --> 00:03:49.615 world's attention to how much of the, of 00:03:49.615 --> 00:03:51.774 the security ecosystem had been outsourced. 00:03:53.190 --> 00:03:55.920 I was looking for a project to sink 00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:57.630 my teeth into on the creative side. 00:03:58.140 --> 00:04:00.570 And that's the fact that I had some unusual 00:04:00.570 --> 00:04:03.240 access, uh, basically presented a really 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:04.140 interesting opportunity. 00:04:04.140 --> 00:04:06.360 So the particular, I forget, I think it's 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:07.350 called the Shooting Edge. 00:04:07.420 --> 00:04:08.340 Was it called the Shooting Edge. 00:04:08.460 --> 00:04:10.190 Yeah, I think thats where you went to, yeah. 00:04:10.390 --> 00:04:11.220 Called the Shooting Edge? 00:04:11.220 --> 00:04:17.250 So I got in touch with a, an ex, uh, 2 2, um, 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:20.070 SAS special air services, British army special 00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:23.850 forces operative by the name of Alan Bell. 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.040 Um, he was, his nickname was dinger when he was 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.730 in the British army and he operated then, and 00:04:29.730 --> 00:04:32.250 still does, a security company based in Toronto 00:04:32.250 --> 00:04:33.080 called Globe Risk. 00:04:33.570 --> 00:04:36.360 So I got in touch with Alan and I got in touch 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:37.830 with Alan out of nowhere, I just remember I called 00:04:37.830 --> 00:04:40.320 him up one day and I said, hey, um, I want 00:04:40.320 --> 00:04:42.660 to do this documentary on security contractors, 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:43.320 who are they? 00:04:43.320 --> 00:04:44.070 What do they do? 00:04:44.490 --> 00:04:45.330 And what kind of people are they? 00:04:45.330 --> 00:04:46.470 Why do they do it? 00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:48.720 Because I was fascinated by the idea of what 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.060 kind of people chose this line of work. 00:04:51.390 --> 00:04:53.159 They chose to put themselves in harm's way. 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:54.360 In other words, they've, they've had 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:55.770 military training, they've left the 00:04:55.770 --> 00:04:57.935 military, and then what? 00:04:57.995 --> 00:04:59.465 They could, they don't have to go 00:04:59.465 --> 00:05:00.185 and do this anymore. 00:05:00.185 --> 00:05:01.655 Nobody's compelling them to do it. 00:05:02.344 --> 00:05:04.835 So of course you could argue, well, it's obvious 00:05:04.895 --> 00:05:07.835 it's money, but it's not quite as simple as money. 00:05:08.104 --> 00:05:09.604 It's often a bunch of other things. 00:05:09.604 --> 00:05:11.765 It's, it's a sense of maybe, maybe searching 00:05:11.765 --> 00:05:12.815 for the glory days. 00:05:13.085 --> 00:05:15.784 Maybe, maybe you get bored being, for 00:05:15.784 --> 00:05:17.854 sake of argument, you know, working as a 00:05:17.854 --> 00:05:19.835 mall security guard, maybe you don't want 00:05:19.835 --> 00:05:20.705 to be a local cop. 00:05:20.705 --> 00:05:22.835 You want to have the experience you had 00:05:23.164 --> 00:05:25.775 as part of a, a small unit fighting force. 00:05:26.344 --> 00:05:28.205 And you don't, how do you do that in 00:05:28.205 --> 00:05:29.495 a civilian context? 00:05:29.855 --> 00:05:32.224 No, one's going to hire you to do sniper counter, 00:05:32.224 --> 00:05:35.255 sniper work in a civilian context that sort of 00:05:35.255 --> 00:05:36.094 work doesn't exist. 00:05:36.695 --> 00:05:39.155 Anyway, I contacted Alan and Alan said, 00:05:39.575 --> 00:05:41.585 initially, he, he was skeptical because he 00:05:41.585 --> 00:05:43.895 thought, who's this guy and what's his agenda. 00:05:43.924 --> 00:05:45.005 Why is he calling me? 00:05:45.905 --> 00:05:46.745 Which makes sense. 00:05:46.745 --> 00:05:49.325 Because especially guys like that, who had a 00:05:49.325 --> 00:05:51.065 bunch of different, special forces training, 00:05:51.455 --> 00:05:52.775 they don't really trust the media. 00:05:52.775 --> 00:05:56.215 They and sadly, even then, and especially 00:05:56.215 --> 00:05:59.335 now, media tends to be very polarized. 00:05:59.335 --> 00:06:00.865 So whoever's looking for an angle. 00:06:01.315 --> 00:06:03.225 And I said to him, early on, I said, no, 00:06:03.225 --> 00:06:04.135 that there's no angle. 00:06:04.195 --> 00:06:04.945 There's no agenda. 00:06:04.945 --> 00:06:05.995 There's no media behind me. 00:06:05.995 --> 00:06:06.565 It's just me. 00:06:06.625 --> 00:06:09.085 I'm just trying to figure out who are these guys? 00:06:09.085 --> 00:06:09.765 What are they doing? 00:06:09.775 --> 00:06:10.135 Why? 00:06:10.525 --> 00:06:12.115 I'm just trying to understand. 00:06:12.385 --> 00:06:15.005 I obviously I'm looking for a story cause I'm 00:06:15.025 --> 00:06:16.045 not, I'm not an idiot. 00:06:16.045 --> 00:06:16.915 I've got to make something that's 00:06:16.925 --> 00:06:18.475 compelling to watch, but I'm also trying 00:06:18.475 --> 00:06:20.635 to understand what's happening in the world 00:06:20.635 --> 00:06:23.755 because sadly, as much as polarization in the 00:06:23.755 --> 00:06:26.365 media would like to have you believe, the world 00:06:26.365 --> 00:06:28.915 isn't black and white never has been, it's all 00:06:28.915 --> 00:06:29.995 different shades of gray. 00:06:30.445 --> 00:06:32.215 And I'm trying to understand the gray. 00:06:32.695 --> 00:06:35.425 So eventually Alan relented and said, hey, 00:06:35.425 --> 00:06:39.055 listen, we're doing a a seven day predeployment 00:06:39.775 --> 00:06:41.875 training at this place called Shooting Edge 00:06:42.445 --> 00:06:47.095 with a bunch of, um, uh, J sock guys or, or 00:06:47.125 --> 00:06:49.405 various different special forces train guys who 00:06:49.405 --> 00:06:51.655 are trying to get jobs with security companies. 00:06:52.195 --> 00:06:53.395 So if you really want this come 00:06:53.395 --> 00:06:54.175 and do this thing. 00:06:55.525 --> 00:06:57.325 So, so I show up day one of the course, I 00:06:57.325 --> 00:06:59.605 meet Alan for breakfast at 0500 or some 00:06:59.665 --> 00:07:00.955 equally crazy time. 00:07:01.465 --> 00:07:03.835 And, and no one else is with me, it's just me. 00:07:04.405 --> 00:07:05.845 And he sort of sits down. 00:07:05.845 --> 00:07:08.065 We have a bit of a chat and breakfast finishes. 00:07:08.065 --> 00:07:10.315 And I remember he said that he goes. 00:07:12.035 --> 00:07:14.265 Just so, you know, there's a, there's a CBC 00:07:14.265 --> 00:07:15.855 crew coming later today. 00:07:16.844 --> 00:07:18.225 And I said, okay. 00:07:18.465 --> 00:07:19.485 And he goes, you know, I hope you guys 00:07:19.485 --> 00:07:20.825 are fine being there at the same time. 00:07:20.825 --> 00:07:22.094 Like, I don't care, I mean, whatever, they 00:07:22.094 --> 00:07:22.995 can do what they want. 00:07:23.655 --> 00:07:25.815 And so, so he says, wait a second, 00:07:25.995 --> 00:07:26.925 where's your gear? 00:07:27.135 --> 00:07:28.034 Where's your crew? 00:07:29.025 --> 00:07:30.705 And I said, what do you mean? 00:07:30.735 --> 00:07:32.775 It's, it's a seven day course right? 00:07:33.525 --> 00:07:34.575 And he goes, yeah. 00:07:34.845 --> 00:07:36.135 And I said, well, I'm going to do 00:07:36.135 --> 00:07:38.085 all my interviews on, on day seven. 00:07:38.805 --> 00:07:39.795 And he said, well, what are you gonna 00:07:39.795 --> 00:07:40.965 do for seven days? 00:07:41.225 --> 00:07:42.435 So I'm going to run the course. 00:07:43.065 --> 00:07:44.835 And he's like, wait, you want, you want to wake 00:07:44.835 --> 00:07:46.755 up early in the morning, run up and down the 00:07:46.755 --> 00:07:49.995 hills with heavy loaded backpack and then drive 00:07:49.995 --> 00:07:52.725 and shoot and do all the training with the guys. 00:07:52.725 --> 00:07:53.715 I'm like, yeah, absolutely. 00:07:53.715 --> 00:07:55.365 He said, what do you want to do that? 00:07:55.365 --> 00:07:56.355 And I said, well, two reasons. 00:07:56.355 --> 00:07:57.435 One, because it's fun. 00:07:58.034 --> 00:08:00.855 Uh, but two, because if I don't do that, 00:08:01.155 --> 00:08:02.865 the guys are never going to talk to me. 00:08:02.895 --> 00:08:04.695 I mean, sure, they might answer questions 00:08:04.695 --> 00:08:07.485 if forced, but it'll be yes, no answers. 00:08:07.485 --> 00:08:08.295 They don't care. 00:08:08.534 --> 00:08:09.795 They're just doing it because they're 00:08:09.795 --> 00:08:13.034 being forced to, I want them to trust me. 00:08:13.034 --> 00:08:14.805 And I want them to understand that I'm 00:08:14.805 --> 00:08:16.755 not trying to just exploit anything. 00:08:16.755 --> 00:08:18.105 I want to understand what they're doing and 00:08:18.105 --> 00:08:19.395 the only way to do that. 00:08:19.905 --> 00:08:21.284 I mean, yes, there's a little bit of 00:08:21.284 --> 00:08:23.745 chest thumping, alpha bullshit that happens, 00:08:24.015 --> 00:08:25.245 but that's necessary. 00:08:25.664 --> 00:08:28.034 So, so that means that I'd go off 00:08:28.034 --> 00:08:28.755 and run with them. 00:08:28.755 --> 00:08:31.095 And if I'm running up a pack of former special 00:08:31.095 --> 00:08:34.335 forces guys, and I'm not in the end of it, 00:08:34.635 --> 00:08:35.475 I'm in the middle of it. 00:08:35.865 --> 00:08:37.814 And I start bitching them out to say, guys, 00:08:37.814 --> 00:08:39.495 I'm a journalist, what are you doing? 00:08:39.824 --> 00:08:40.574 Go faster. 00:08:41.495 --> 00:08:43.515 That's fun because, because they're all, 00:08:43.995 --> 00:08:45.735 we're all trying to get in this together. 00:08:45.735 --> 00:08:47.595 So from that perspective, I think that was a 00:08:47.595 --> 00:08:49.545 very, very sensible decision because by the 00:08:49.545 --> 00:08:51.765 end, I'm not saying we were best friends, but 00:08:51.765 --> 00:08:52.965 at least they knew me. 00:08:53.245 --> 00:08:54.735 They knew what kind of person I was, 00:08:54.735 --> 00:08:56.324 they knew that I was either dumb enough or 00:08:56.324 --> 00:08:58.305 committed enough to go through the punishing 00:08:58.305 --> 00:08:59.324 schedule with them. 00:08:59.775 --> 00:09:02.805 So that meant that I got a lot more, shall we say 00:09:02.835 --> 00:09:04.454 honesty and sincerity out of them because 00:09:04.454 --> 00:09:06.135 they understood that I, that I gave a shit 00:09:06.194 --> 00:09:08.385 about this stuff and that worked out very well. 00:09:08.385 --> 00:09:10.335 Plus I ended up becoming very close friends with 00:09:10.335 --> 00:09:12.105 Alan as a, as a result. 00:09:12.135 --> 00:09:14.235 Cause he, he's, he's just, I can imagine he 00:09:14.235 --> 00:09:16.725 thought, who is this idiot who wants to put, 00:09:16.785 --> 00:09:18.675 put himself through this punishing course? 00:09:19.035 --> 00:09:21.375 But by day three or four, he was like, okay, fine 00:09:21.375 --> 00:09:22.935 and we became, we've become friends since, 00:09:22.935 --> 00:09:24.135 we spoken quite a bit. 00:09:24.525 --> 00:09:26.475 Um, and uh, you know, I've been over 00:09:26.475 --> 00:09:27.194 to stay with him. 00:09:27.465 --> 00:09:29.055 He's um, he's a solid guy. 00:09:29.265 --> 00:09:31.725 He's uh, he's obviously it's been a long time 00:09:31.725 --> 00:09:34.755 since, since he's been on the ground and active, 00:09:34.814 --> 00:09:37.214 but let's just say that if push came to shove 00:09:37.214 --> 00:09:40.125 in most scenarios, uh, I, I was still very much 00:09:40.125 --> 00:09:44.145 trust Alan because, uh, he's, he's seen and done 00:09:44.204 --> 00:09:45.045 pretty much everything. 00:09:45.795 --> 00:09:46.005 Yeah. 00:09:46.005 --> 00:09:49.035 It's kind of hard to, uh, lose that once 00:09:49.035 --> 00:09:49.935 you've been through that. 00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:54.750 Um, so it went on, I mean, you go on 00:09:54.750 --> 00:09:55.380 rotten tomatoes. 00:09:55.380 --> 00:09:57.870 I think it's got an 85% approval rating, 00:09:57.900 --> 00:09:59.570 which is phenomenal. 00:09:59.850 --> 00:10:01.439 Dammnit, it was higher before. 00:10:01.770 --> 00:10:02.010 Yeah. 00:10:02.760 --> 00:10:04.319 I mean, the story, the story of the movie, 00:10:04.319 --> 00:10:05.819 like to give you a bit more, so that, that 00:10:05.819 --> 00:10:07.620 was the very genesis of the beginning. 00:10:08.130 --> 00:10:12.000 Uh, as a result of that, you see the bulk of the. 00:10:13.350 --> 00:10:17.250 The early initial cadre of deployments to satisfy 00:10:17.610 --> 00:10:20.490 the job requirements that came up in, uh, 00:10:20.530 --> 00:10:23.010 in Iraq and Afghanistan to a greater or lesser 00:10:23.010 --> 00:10:26.700 degree in those days, was filled with what was 00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:28.770 euphemistically referred to as tier one operators. 00:10:28.770 --> 00:10:32.010 In other words, ex SAS, ex SBS, uh, seals 00:10:32.010 --> 00:10:35.190 just unite, like pick a pick a group, and 00:10:35.370 --> 00:10:37.380 you could pretty much guarantee that the top 00:10:37.380 --> 00:10:40.590 tier guys were going to go and do a rotation 00:10:40.590 --> 00:10:42.210 there because the money was just too good. 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.380 And some cases, sadly, it was actually eroding the 00:10:46.380 --> 00:10:49.620 ability of some high-end special forces unit to 00:10:49.620 --> 00:10:52.380 keep their stuff, because guys were looking at this 00:10:52.380 --> 00:10:53.340 going, hang on a second. 00:10:53.700 --> 00:10:56.160 I could stay on for another two years and 00:10:56.160 --> 00:11:00.210 make X, or I could make triple that with the same 00:11:00.210 --> 00:11:03.300 risk level if I just quit now because hey, look, 00:11:03.300 --> 00:11:04.590 I've got my seal badge. 00:11:04.800 --> 00:11:06.180 I might as well leave the teams. 00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:07.260 I don't need to stick around. 00:11:07.260 --> 00:11:08.790 I'll go work for Blackwater for 00:11:08.820 --> 00:11:11.010 X rotations and that's me done. 00:11:11.010 --> 00:11:12.540 Then I can buy my house and retire. 00:11:13.310 --> 00:11:16.020 So, so there was definitely lots of lots 00:11:16.020 --> 00:11:18.960 of stuff going on, but in what happened is after 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.440 the initial conversations with Alan, those that 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.560 world is quite tough to break into in term, as, 00:11:25.560 --> 00:11:28.800 from a media perspective, nobody trusts anybody. 00:11:29.070 --> 00:11:30.690 Um, uh, certainly not members of the 00:11:30.690 --> 00:11:32.280 media, unless they've actually worked with 00:11:32.280 --> 00:11:34.440 people before, it ain't gonna happen. 00:11:35.560 --> 00:11:38.590 But one, it's like a, like a set of dominoes. 00:11:38.590 --> 00:11:40.930 One thing led to another, uh, knowing 00:11:40.930 --> 00:11:42.820 Alan and having a seal of approval, 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:44.920 stamp of approval from him, certainly 00:11:44.920 --> 00:11:46.060 opened some doors. 00:11:46.390 --> 00:11:50.110 Um, I was able to reach out to a guy 00:11:50.110 --> 00:11:51.520 called Cobas Clawson's. 00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:56.530 Cobas is a, uh, former executive outcomes, 00:11:56.860 --> 00:11:59.800 uh, fire force leader and the former officer 00:11:59.830 --> 00:12:01.570 in the parachute regiment in the south 00:12:01.570 --> 00:12:02.650 African defense force. 00:12:03.220 --> 00:12:06.010 And he became, uh, a very good friend of 00:12:06.010 --> 00:12:08.170 mine over the course of a number of years. 00:12:08.170 --> 00:12:10.660 But in those days I started talking to 00:12:10.660 --> 00:12:13.120 him initially, um, remotely of course 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:15.490 then eventually met him in person in London. 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:17.680 And finally, I spent a couple of weeks with 00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:18.730 him in Sierra Leone. 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.240 And that was fascinating because the, um, what 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.400 happened in Sierra Leone in the, in the early 00:12:24.400 --> 00:12:26.350 nineties, I mean, Sierra Leone, like sadly, a 00:12:26.350 --> 00:12:29.640 bunch of west Africa hasn't had, shall we 00:12:29.655 --> 00:12:32.085 say the most peaceful couple of decades. 00:12:32.355 --> 00:12:35.445 But in particular, in the, in the early 00:12:35.445 --> 00:12:41.205 nineties, a group of, well, a mix of different 00:12:41.205 --> 00:12:44.415 librarian and foreign interests decided to 00:12:44.415 --> 00:12:48.465 ferment unrest inside, uh, inside the country 00:12:48.855 --> 00:12:51.345 and lots of problems and suits chief amongst them 00:12:51.345 --> 00:12:55.725 being, um, a guerrilla army that was funded, 00:12:55.785 --> 00:12:58.425 rebels shall we say, so-called revolutionary 00:12:58.425 --> 00:12:59.265 united front. 00:12:59.715 --> 00:13:02.895 Uh, that simultaneously took over the diamond 00:13:02.895 --> 00:13:06.585 mines, thereby cutting off one of the biggest 00:13:06.585 --> 00:13:08.145 revenue streams for the country. 00:13:08.355 --> 00:13:09.885 The country ran out to the ability to 00:13:09.885 --> 00:13:10.995 pay its own troops. 00:13:11.205 --> 00:13:12.465 The troops didn't have food. 00:13:12.465 --> 00:13:15.225 The troops then revolted and specifically went and 00:13:15.225 --> 00:13:16.545 joined the rebel groups. 00:13:16.845 --> 00:13:18.525 So the whole country is in disarray. 00:13:18.555 --> 00:13:19.935 They've got no ability to keep the 00:13:19.935 --> 00:13:20.835 peace whatsoever. 00:13:21.165 --> 00:13:25.935 Into the vray a group of, uh, private 00:13:25.935 --> 00:13:28.395 contractors who, in those days they openly call 00:13:28.395 --> 00:13:30.015 the cells mercenaries because as far as 00:13:30.015 --> 00:13:31.245 they were concerned, that's what they were. 00:13:31.455 --> 00:13:32.715 They were soldiers for hire. 00:13:33.175 --> 00:13:34.665 They came in to stabilize the country. 00:13:35.115 --> 00:13:37.485 Ultimately they ended up preventing a genocide 00:13:37.875 --> 00:13:41.835 and they certainly did it in, in a, in a, in a very 00:13:41.835 --> 00:13:46.035 explicit, aggressive, uh, precise use of force way. 00:13:46.035 --> 00:13:47.595 There was no, no question about it. 00:13:47.595 --> 00:13:49.005 They came in there and if people were 00:13:49.005 --> 00:13:50.415 causing problems, they killed them. 00:13:52.454 --> 00:13:54.944 Unfortunately, those are complicated environments 00:13:54.974 --> 00:13:57.915 to be, to be operating in under international law. 00:13:58.275 --> 00:14:01.365 So even though they were able to stabilize the 00:14:01.365 --> 00:14:04.694 scenario in ways in which the United Nations, not 00:14:04.694 --> 00:14:06.675 only likely couldn't have done, but quite 00:14:06.675 --> 00:14:09.045 explicitly failed to do when something similar 00:14:09.045 --> 00:14:12.974 happened, both in Sierra Leone and in Rwanda. 00:14:13.365 --> 00:14:16.214 Roundabout the same decade executive outcomes 00:14:16.214 --> 00:14:19.425 did do this, uh, in a way that whether you 00:14:19.425 --> 00:14:21.135 argue from an ethical perspective, whether 00:14:21.135 --> 00:14:24.015 it was correct or not, it saved hundreds of 00:14:24.015 --> 00:14:26.204 thousands of lives and stop the bloodshed cold. 00:14:27.555 --> 00:14:29.295 And Cobas was a key part of that. 00:14:29.324 --> 00:14:31.155 And I was fascinated by that story. 00:14:31.454 --> 00:14:35.055 And, and again, it wasn't, I wasn't there 00:14:35.055 --> 00:14:37.905 to make comment on whether or not this was 00:14:37.905 --> 00:14:39.435 the right thing to do. 00:14:39.855 --> 00:14:41.655 I was mostly trying to understand 00:14:41.655 --> 00:14:42.375 the human angle. 00:14:42.375 --> 00:14:44.145 I was trying to understand what kind 00:14:44.145 --> 00:14:46.454 of people do this, uh, what are they doing and 00:14:46.454 --> 00:14:47.385 why they're doing it? 00:14:47.385 --> 00:14:50.385 So, um, the, the movie ended up running 00:14:50.385 --> 00:14:53.895 the gamut of looking at aspects of, uh, 00:14:53.925 --> 00:14:55.844 shall we say, north American contractors. 00:14:55.844 --> 00:14:57.105 So that would be companies like, 00:14:57.375 --> 00:14:59.714 uh, Blackwater and triple canopy, uh, 00:14:59.745 --> 00:15:02.145 south African focus companies like airiness. 00:15:02.474 --> 00:15:04.365 And so this was present day stuff in the middle 00:15:04.365 --> 00:15:06.135 east, and then some of the historical stuff, 00:15:06.464 --> 00:15:08.984 including Sierra Leone and Equatorial Guinea. 00:15:09.464 --> 00:15:11.324 And the initial thing that I made was the 00:15:11.324 --> 00:15:12.314 feature length doc. 00:15:12.645 --> 00:15:14.895 The feature length doc ran remember exactly, but 00:15:14.895 --> 00:15:16.125 roundabout 90 minutes. 00:15:16.635 --> 00:15:18.235 And it was incredibly well recieved. 00:15:18.755 --> 00:15:22.710 I ended up testifying in front of the us Senate as 00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:24.900 a subject subject matter expert on the usage of 00:15:24.900 --> 00:15:26.460 contractors and warfare. 00:15:27.180 --> 00:15:31.920 And I ended up, um, you know, a number 00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:35.310 of different channels asked to license 00:15:35.310 --> 00:15:36.210 the documentary. 00:15:36.540 --> 00:15:38.520 I said no to a lot of the initial deals. 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:40.290 And one of the reasons I said no to a lot of 00:15:40.290 --> 00:15:42.570 the initial deals was ironically similar to 00:15:42.570 --> 00:15:44.730 why I had a bit of a falling out with a CBC. 00:15:45.210 --> 00:15:46.440 I don't know if you remember the story, 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:48.300 but I was living in Vancouver at the time. 00:15:48.630 --> 00:15:50.970 And early on, when I put together the package 00:15:50.970 --> 00:15:53.130 for the documentary with some initial interview 00:15:53.130 --> 00:15:57.270 material, uh, I came to the CBC and I thought, 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.340 well, you know, I don't really know how these 00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:01.290 things are made, but presumably you guys fund 00:16:01.290 --> 00:16:03.300 documentaries like this, hey, let's, let's see 00:16:03.300 --> 00:16:04.170 if we can work together. 00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:07.770 And they immediately said, this is amazing. 00:16:07.810 --> 00:16:08.850 Let's do this. 00:16:09.150 --> 00:16:11.490 This is amazing access and it's really timely 00:16:11.490 --> 00:16:12.600 and we like the style. 00:16:12.990 --> 00:16:14.310 Uh, we'd love to be involved. 00:16:14.310 --> 00:16:16.500 We'll fund the whole documentary and 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:17.280 the one condition. 00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:18.600 And I said, what's that? 00:16:18.750 --> 00:16:22.770 And they said, you need to make sure the tone of 00:16:22.770 --> 00:16:27.270 the documentary is anti security contractor. 00:16:27.690 --> 00:16:29.670 And you need, you need to show them running 00:16:29.670 --> 00:16:31.890 rough shot over a Rocky civilians. 00:16:31.950 --> 00:16:33.090 And I said, hang on a second. 00:16:34.710 --> 00:16:36.750 Am I suggesting for a second that this 00:16:36.750 --> 00:16:38.010 stuff never happens. 00:16:38.010 --> 00:16:38.850 Absolutely not. 00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:39.720 It does happen. 00:16:40.110 --> 00:16:41.940 And it certainly happens because when 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.040 you're a, because people make mistakes 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:46.590 be because there's bad apples around, some 00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:47.460 people are stupid. 00:16:47.820 --> 00:16:49.980 And moreover, as I mentioned earlier in the 00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:53.190 talk in the early stages of the recruitment cycle, 00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:55.320 the first jobs were always filled by very, 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:56.520 very qualified people. 00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:59.460 But so many thousands of individuals were needed. 00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:02.130 The criteria ended up becoming relaxed. 00:17:02.490 --> 00:17:04.470 So you ended up paying guys who didn't have the 00:17:04.470 --> 00:17:07.170 right level of experience going over and screwing 00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:09.500 things up and getting some cases themselves. 00:17:09.510 --> 00:17:11.550 In some cases, others killed in the process 00:17:12.210 --> 00:17:14.790 point being with a CBC, as I said, my 00:17:14.790 --> 00:17:17.700 aim is not to verify, vilify or to glorify. 00:17:18.089 --> 00:17:21.240 Um, but the, the whole idea is that this is 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.060 neither anti, nor pro security contractor. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:28.470 And they said, no, this is pro security 00:17:28.470 --> 00:17:30.660 contractor by virtue of the fact that 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:31.680 it's not auntie. 00:17:32.100 --> 00:17:33.900 And I said, screw this, this is bullshit. 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:34.990 I'm not doing it right. 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:37.440 So, sorry, refuse to work with the CBC for 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:38.340 that reason alone. 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:43.050 And it's, it's kind of sad because the, the 00:17:43.050 --> 00:17:46.440 year after the movie was completed, que que 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:48.390 a couple of years worth of traveling around war 00:17:48.390 --> 00:17:51.000 zones, doing lots of interviews, securing the 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:52.800 right people, talking to some politicians 00:17:52.800 --> 00:17:55.350 and lobbyists in Washington, DC, the usual 00:17:55.350 --> 00:17:56.640 stuff that you would need to put together, 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.510 a story like this. 00:17:57.840 --> 00:18:00.060 And I was very proud of what we achieved and 00:18:00.090 --> 00:18:03.720 finally we submitted it to, at the time it 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:04.560 was the Leo awards. 00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:05.760 I'm trying to remember the name of the awards 00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:07.620 for British Columbia film and TV awards. 00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:11.910 So it was, it was a nice little, uh, I 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:14.370 guess, bittersweet victory against the 00:18:14.370 --> 00:18:17.280 CBC because there were seven documentaries 00:18:17.280 --> 00:18:19.890 I believe, submitted that year for the 00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:22.350 best documentary, best directing, best writing 00:18:22.350 --> 00:18:23.760 and best editing prize. 00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:29.880 All other six, other than ours were funded 00:18:30.030 --> 00:18:31.380 purely by the CBC. 00:18:31.650 --> 00:18:33.310 We won in all categories. 00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:34.280 So. 00:18:34.280 --> 00:18:34.880 That's fantastic. 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:36.680 It's like, you know, it's, it's 00:18:36.690 --> 00:18:39.480 sad because the CBC really didn't need to 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:40.620 take this position. 00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:43.470 Uh, they just did for, I guess, ideological 00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:46.880 reasons, but ultimately what, you know, the, 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.440 the, the, the, I guess the quality of 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.600 the storytelling and the fact that we did 00:18:51.600 --> 00:18:54.090 not take sides, uh, prevailed because 00:18:54.090 --> 00:18:55.030 people really liked it. 00:18:55.030 --> 00:18:57.450 And I definitely enjoyed showing the 00:18:57.450 --> 00:18:59.790 documentary and I enjoyed the Q and A's 00:19:00.150 --> 00:19:01.200 that went alongside it. 00:19:01.590 --> 00:19:06.300 For example, I um, when we did our theatrical 00:19:06.300 --> 00:19:09.990 premiere in New York, I did a Q and A afterwards, 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:13.950 and I put on stage, uh, um, a guy who 00:19:13.950 --> 00:19:16.679 worked for Blackwater and a representative 00:19:16.679 --> 00:19:17.760 of the United Nations. 00:19:18.149 --> 00:19:20.879 Now these are not traditionally the 00:19:20.879 --> 00:19:23.159 kind of people you would see on stage 00:19:23.189 --> 00:19:24.419 together at any panel. 00:19:24.780 --> 00:19:27.090 But I did that deliberately because I 00:19:27.090 --> 00:19:29.370 wanted to see what kind of discussion we could 00:19:29.370 --> 00:19:32.280 have, because I think both, both entities, not 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:35.310 only have a voice, but deserve to have a voice. 00:19:35.580 --> 00:19:37.919 And the, there, there are discussions that need to 00:19:37.919 --> 00:19:41.639 be had with, with, with, uh, with both elements 00:19:41.730 --> 00:19:43.169 of that ecosystem. 00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:45.300 So, and I did that quite a lot, and I 00:19:45.300 --> 00:19:46.889 thought that was, that was fascinating. 00:19:46.889 --> 00:19:49.560 In fact, at the world premier, which was at 00:19:49.560 --> 00:19:52.590 the south by Southwest film festival, I flew 00:19:52.590 --> 00:19:56.040 out, uh co-vice I think it was his, his first 00:19:56.040 --> 00:19:57.389 high profile interview. 00:19:57.929 --> 00:19:59.610 And I flew out Alan Bell. 00:19:59.939 --> 00:20:01.110 And that was really interesting. 00:20:01.169 --> 00:20:02.760 There was all the recordings of that 00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:05.760 somewhere, just doing, doing a kind of, after 00:20:05.760 --> 00:20:06.899 you see this whole movie. 00:20:06.899 --> 00:20:09.990 So in the end for I'm sure that we'll be able 00:20:09.990 --> 00:20:11.230 to include a link here. 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:12.310 Absolutely. 00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:15.480 But while I, while initially this is 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:16.949 a little while ago, obviously this movie 00:20:16.949 --> 00:20:19.409 came out while initially the bulk of people were 00:20:19.409 --> 00:20:20.879 seeing this on DVDs. 00:20:21.330 --> 00:20:23.220 And I don't know, many of us probably don't 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:27.060 even have a DVD player anymore, but, uh, I got. 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:29.650 Just to give you an idea of the enduring 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:31.990 popularity of, of the, of the, of not 00:20:31.990 --> 00:20:35.500 just the theme and the subject, but also 00:20:35.500 --> 00:20:36.910 this particular story. 00:20:37.330 --> 00:20:42.250 Uh, after, I'd say maybe four years of this being 00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:45.280 out on DVD and steadily being viewed, including 00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:47.920 many, many academic educational institutions 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.470 who would buy the license to be able to 00:20:50.470 --> 00:20:52.540 use this as part of their teaching material. 00:20:53.230 --> 00:20:57.220 Um, I got sick of seeing and taking down 00:20:57.220 --> 00:21:00.790 on YouTube people who had illegally uploaded 00:21:00.790 --> 00:21:02.650 versions of the movie in its entirety. 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:05.530 And they'd racked up to 3 million views in 00:21:05.530 --> 00:21:07.660 some cases with ads. 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:09.940 And I thought, okay, goodness, I'm not going 00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:10.960 to fight these guys. 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:12.040 I'm just going to do my own. 00:21:12.040 --> 00:21:14.950 So I put the official version up and of course, 00:21:15.370 --> 00:21:17.020 Google being Google. 00:21:17.230 --> 00:21:19.540 Uh, I never got the money back for the 00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:21.670 revenue that those guys got from the ads. 00:21:21.970 --> 00:21:23.440 They just struck them down. 00:21:23.770 --> 00:21:26.050 And the movie still, I think my official 00:21:26.050 --> 00:21:29.060 version is now at 2 million something views. 00:21:29.639 --> 00:21:29.780 Nice. 00:21:29.810 --> 00:21:32.650 But the other ones all between them, if you add 00:21:32.650 --> 00:21:34.300 up all the illegal ones over the years, it's 00:21:34.300 --> 00:21:38.920 probably 10 million plus, and that's on top of 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:40.660 that a couple of years. 00:21:41.670 --> 00:21:44.280 I did sign a foreign sales deal with a company 00:21:44.280 --> 00:21:46.560 called Journeymen and Journeyman's entire 00:21:46.560 --> 00:21:48.540 back catalog got put on Amazon Prime. 00:21:49.080 --> 00:21:53.190 So I was surprised about a year ago, this 00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:54.630 friend of mine was watching The Kingdom. 00:21:54.870 --> 00:21:55.890 I don't know if you remember the movie, 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:58.770 Jamie Fox and a bunch of other people go to 00:21:58.770 --> 00:22:02.160 investigate a bombing in, uh, uh, in Saudi Arabia. 00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:04.560 So he sends me a photograph that he 00:22:04.560 --> 00:22:06.540 quickly took with his phone at the 00:22:06.540 --> 00:22:07.440 end of The kingdom. 00:22:07.560 --> 00:22:09.210 They put up, if you like this movie, 00:22:09.330 --> 00:22:10.920 you should check out Shadow Company cause 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:11.880 it's on Amazon Prime. 00:22:12.570 --> 00:22:14.070 And so I was like, wow, that's awesome. 00:22:14.320 --> 00:22:16.560 And surprise, surprise, that was when they 00:22:16.560 --> 00:22:17.670 were just promoting it. 00:22:17.760 --> 00:22:20.670 And ever since then, let's just say that 00:22:21.450 --> 00:22:24.060 for a movie that's 10 years old at this 00:22:24.060 --> 00:22:27.720 point, if not longer, the there's a continuous 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:30.570 monthly revenue stream just from people who 00:22:30.570 --> 00:22:32.400 are watching this thing on Amazon Prime. 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:34.410 So there's still an audience for this and 00:22:34.410 --> 00:22:37.290 I'm still as fascinated by the subject as I was. 00:22:37.830 --> 00:22:39.630 In fact, there's a segue here. 00:22:39.630 --> 00:22:42.150 If we want to into executive outcomes, 00:22:42.150 --> 00:22:44.889 because the company that Cobas worked for, 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:47.670 that he was one of the, one of the, um, one 00:22:47.670 --> 00:22:52.260 of the key players in, uh, they, they occupy 00:22:52.260 --> 00:22:55.080 a special place in history as far as on the 00:22:55.080 --> 00:22:56.460 security contractor side. 00:22:56.670 --> 00:22:59.100 And I thought it was interesting enough to 00:22:59.100 --> 00:23:03.840 explore essentially a story of bad guys doing 00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:07.950 good things that I ended up, uh, writing a 00:23:07.980 --> 00:23:09.180 screenplay about this. 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:11.040 Screenplays called Executive Outcomes. 00:23:11.550 --> 00:23:14.070 And there's been lots of interest from 00:23:14.070 --> 00:23:15.840 various different Hollywood players in the 00:23:15.840 --> 00:23:19.200 screenplay, but Hollywood being Hollywood, they 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.260 want this for Ridley Scott to direct or pick 00:23:22.260 --> 00:23:23.490 another famous director. 00:23:24.070 --> 00:23:25.770 In this case, Ridley Scott, it was because 00:23:25.770 --> 00:23:26.639 of Black Hawk Down. 00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:28.860 And lots of people have asked to buy the 00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:30.480 screenplay, but I don't want to do that because 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:31.230 I want to direct it. 00:23:31.770 --> 00:23:32.040 So. 00:23:32.040 --> 00:23:32.840 Good for you. 00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:34.020 That's the plan. 00:23:34.080 --> 00:23:37.260 And in the process, one of the things I made is, 00:23:37.590 --> 00:23:40.770 this little thing, which is a graphic novel of 00:23:40.770 --> 00:23:44.070 the entire screenplay, which was actually two 00:23:44.070 --> 00:23:44.879 reasons to do that. 00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:46.889 One was that from a director perspective, 00:23:46.889 --> 00:23:48.480 it was a fascinating exercise because the 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.540 whole thing is sort of like doing a storyboard 00:23:51.540 --> 00:23:52.250 for every shot. 00:23:52.650 --> 00:23:52.800 Right. 00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:55.770 So if I can feel the movie visually, if I 00:23:55.770 --> 00:23:57.750 can visualize it, I can do the graphic novel. 00:23:57.750 --> 00:23:59.879 But second of all, because I'm fascinated 00:23:59.879 --> 00:24:02.685 by discovering new things and figuring 00:24:02.685 --> 00:24:06.405 out new ways to work in different environments. 00:24:06.405 --> 00:24:08.415 So understanding, understanding 00:24:08.415 --> 00:24:11.145 storytelling in a, in a comic book 00:24:11.145 --> 00:24:11.835 is fascinating. 00:24:12.044 --> 00:24:13.485 I'll give you an example of something. 00:24:13.784 --> 00:24:16.185 So I don't know, let's pick one, just 00:24:16.185 --> 00:24:17.925 one panel and trying to make this, so the 00:24:17.925 --> 00:24:19.125 reflections aren't there. 00:24:19.365 --> 00:24:19.695 Yeah. 00:24:20.565 --> 00:24:22.725 It's obvious if you think about the story 00:24:22.725 --> 00:24:24.495 that takes place in the panel, because you're 00:24:24.495 --> 00:24:26.325 looking at something, looks like a movie frame, 00:24:26.595 --> 00:24:28.665 some of these speaking, you see composition 00:24:28.665 --> 00:24:30.014 there's stuff going on in the background. 00:24:30.435 --> 00:24:31.845 The interesting thing is the story that 00:24:31.845 --> 00:24:35.205 happens in the gap because you're asking 00:24:35.205 --> 00:24:38.804 the reader to imagine the transition from this 00:24:38.804 --> 00:24:40.455 visual, to this visual. 00:24:40.935 --> 00:24:43.185 And it's those kinds of things in a movie, 00:24:43.335 --> 00:24:44.325 this happens in a cut. 00:24:44.325 --> 00:24:45.615 So it happens very rapidly. 00:24:45.615 --> 00:24:47.325 It's just a brief second and you're 00:24:47.325 --> 00:24:49.455 already guiding the viewer, but in the 00:24:49.455 --> 00:24:52.395 comic book, the story that happens in the gap 00:24:52.665 --> 00:24:54.585 is kind of interesting to conceptualize. 00:24:54.645 --> 00:24:57.794 And it was for me, a fascinating challenge 00:24:58.065 --> 00:25:00.044 to took much longer than I expected to 00:25:00.044 --> 00:25:01.125 make the graphic novel. 00:25:01.514 --> 00:25:02.925 But yeah, the first printing sold out 00:25:02.925 --> 00:25:04.065 lots of great reviews. 00:25:04.395 --> 00:25:07.155 Um, the process of making the actual movie. 00:25:07.695 --> 00:25:08.054 Yeah. 00:25:08.085 --> 00:25:10.905 Let's just say it's taken awhile. 00:25:11.054 --> 00:25:14.115 And I believe that it'll get there, especially 00:25:14.115 --> 00:25:17.415 nowadays with, with the likes of Amazon 00:25:17.475 --> 00:25:21.945 and apple and, um, and Netflix, very hungry 00:25:21.945 --> 00:25:23.715 to, to fill that. 00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:26.610 Databases with material that people 00:25:26.610 --> 00:25:29.460 find compelling and the performance of 00:25:29.490 --> 00:25:32.100 movies like, uh, Triple frontier or 00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:34.590 extraction, uh, neither of which I thought were 00:25:34.590 --> 00:25:36.780 particularly great, but, uh, they they're 00:25:36.790 --> 00:25:39.540 extremely popular and they indicate that people 00:25:39.540 --> 00:25:41.070 want thoughtful action. 00:25:41.675 --> 00:25:45.335 We're not talking about one guy Rambo style 00:25:45.335 --> 00:25:48.125 coming in and fighting an entire army single-handed 00:25:48.125 --> 00:25:49.265 with two rocket launches. 00:25:49.505 --> 00:25:49.715 Yeah. 00:25:49.715 --> 00:25:51.665 That's stuff worked in the eighties, but 00:25:51.665 --> 00:25:55.145 now nowadays there's no reason why we can't 00:25:55.145 --> 00:25:58.895 have an action movie, which is, which is, um, 00:25:58.955 --> 00:26:00.515 a thinking man's movie. 00:26:00.515 --> 00:26:02.585 But at the same time, when violence is 00:26:02.585 --> 00:26:06.155 necessary, it should be authentic for I'm 00:26:06.155 --> 00:26:07.055 talking about something. 00:26:07.055 --> 00:26:08.555 That's I don't know if you remember the movie 00:26:08.555 --> 00:26:12.275 Syriana but for example, Sierra is a very, it's a, 00:26:12.275 --> 00:26:14.075 it's a very complicated movie to watch. 00:26:14.285 --> 00:26:16.255 It's not a lot of fun to watch, even though it's 00:26:16.275 --> 00:26:17.465 important subject matter. 00:26:18.095 --> 00:26:20.645 And I think that there's an unnecessary 00:26:20.645 --> 00:26:21.245 distinction. 00:26:21.245 --> 00:26:23.615 Like somehow if you're serious, you're 00:26:23.615 --> 00:26:24.395 supposed to be serious. 00:26:24.395 --> 00:26:25.505 You're not allowed to be fun. 00:26:25.925 --> 00:26:28.925 But if you're a fun movie, then you were only 00:26:28.925 --> 00:26:29.945 really allowed to be fun. 00:26:29.975 --> 00:26:31.805 If you're a superhero movie, you can't be a 00:26:31.805 --> 00:26:33.365 fun movie about war. 00:26:33.785 --> 00:26:37.445 So I think there's scope here to make something 00:26:37.715 --> 00:26:40.265 that's a hybrid that there's no, there's no 00:26:40.265 --> 00:26:43.235 reason why you can't have black humor inside 00:26:43.235 --> 00:26:46.325 a serious narrative about a dysfunctional 00:26:46.325 --> 00:26:47.135 foreign policy. 00:26:47.495 --> 00:26:48.455 So that's my plan. 00:26:48.545 --> 00:26:51.035 My plan is to stay true to the style that I 00:26:51.035 --> 00:26:53.225 established from the narrative dynamic of 00:26:53.225 --> 00:26:56.135 the documentary and make a drama around that. 00:26:56.135 --> 00:26:58.265 But we'll see, Hollywood takes a lot of convincing 00:26:58.295 --> 00:26:59.165 one step at a time. 00:26:59.675 --> 00:27:00.545 That's good, incredibly 00:27:00.545 --> 00:27:01.085 exciting. 00:27:01.115 --> 00:27:02.525 And I like the way that you look at it 00:27:02.525 --> 00:27:04.595 from those, from those different perspectives, 00:27:04.595 --> 00:27:05.765 I've never actually thought about. 00:27:06.675 --> 00:27:09.375 A graphic novel and the story that's being 00:27:09.375 --> 00:27:14.504 told in between frames that's uh, what was your 00:27:14.504 --> 00:27:15.735 background in filmmaking? 00:27:16.155 --> 00:27:17.955 You're basically self-taught aren't you 00:27:18.764 --> 00:27:19.335 pretty much. 00:27:19.365 --> 00:27:23.024 Yeah, I'm I, um, so from the filmmaking 00:27:23.024 --> 00:27:25.185 perspective, what happened was, I 00:27:25.185 --> 00:27:27.764 obviously like, like, you know, millions of 00:27:27.764 --> 00:27:30.345 people in the world, I like consuming movies. 00:27:30.885 --> 00:27:34.845 And I started dabbling in, in recording 00:27:34.845 --> 00:27:35.774 my own stuff. 00:27:36.105 --> 00:27:39.044 When I was spending a lot of time doing outdoor 00:27:39.044 --> 00:27:41.504 activities, primarily focused on wind surfing 00:27:41.504 --> 00:27:44.054 and skiing, uh, in particular, the first, 00:27:44.054 --> 00:27:47.294 slightly longer format thing I did was when I 00:27:47.294 --> 00:27:50.024 sold my first startup and I moved to Hawaii. 00:27:50.355 --> 00:27:51.975 So I was living on the north shore of Maui 00:27:51.975 --> 00:27:54.585 and I recorded lots of different interviews 00:27:54.585 --> 00:27:57.435 with people and lots of different ways. 00:27:57.524 --> 00:27:59.325 This was, this is a long time ago, I'm 00:27:59.325 --> 00:28:02.865 old, but, uh, this was, this was pre GoPro. 00:28:02.865 --> 00:28:03.495 Believe it or not. 00:28:03.495 --> 00:28:05.595 So you couldn't just slap a GoPro on a helmet. 00:28:05.955 --> 00:28:08.745 We were making custom waterproof housings 00:28:08.925 --> 00:28:11.445 with remote triggers for cameras that would stick 00:28:11.445 --> 00:28:14.264 on a nose of the board or somewhere on the sale of 00:28:14.264 --> 00:28:16.754 the mast in order to be able to record different 00:28:16.754 --> 00:28:18.014 water sports activities. 00:28:18.315 --> 00:28:18.845 But from. 00:28:19.725 --> 00:28:21.975 You know, I don't know how many surfing or 00:28:21.975 --> 00:28:23.955 snowboarding movies you've watched, 00:28:24.285 --> 00:28:25.335 but there's only a certain number. 00:28:25.485 --> 00:28:25.985 Yeah. 00:28:26.005 --> 00:28:27.645 There's only so many times that I can see a 00:28:27.645 --> 00:28:30.795 guy doing bottom turn and a cutback with some 00:28:30.795 --> 00:28:33.465 cool thrashing rock track in the background. 00:28:33.465 --> 00:28:34.875 It gets a little boring to me. 00:28:35.265 --> 00:28:37.005 I wanted more it's the human angle that 00:28:37.005 --> 00:28:37.695 I was interested. 00:28:37.695 --> 00:28:40.845 So the particular piece I made was called stuck. 00:28:41.355 --> 00:28:44.475 And it was because specifically the 00:28:44.475 --> 00:28:47.025 Hawaiian islands for a European, I mean, 00:28:47.025 --> 00:28:49.155 I was born and raised in, in what was then 00:28:49.155 --> 00:28:50.985 Yugoslavia eventually became Croatia. 00:28:50.985 --> 00:28:53.715 So very much European, every aspect of my 00:28:53.715 --> 00:28:57.615 upbringing and Maui is really far it's halfway 00:28:57.615 --> 00:28:58.455 around the world. 00:28:58.995 --> 00:29:00.795 But I found that there was a lot of people 00:29:00.795 --> 00:29:04.695 there who come there for one reason and 00:29:04.695 --> 00:29:06.645 then they ended up, you know, one thing leads 00:29:06.645 --> 00:29:08.505 to another and suddenly five years has gone by 00:29:08.505 --> 00:29:09.375 and they're still there. 00:29:09.885 --> 00:29:12.465 So that's why I called the project stuck 00:29:12.735 --> 00:29:14.745 because people get stuck there for a variety 00:29:14.745 --> 00:29:15.615 of different reasons. 00:29:15.915 --> 00:29:18.285 So I made this 15 minute short film called stuck, 00:29:18.285 --> 00:29:19.185 which I really liked. 00:29:19.785 --> 00:29:22.335 And I wasn't sure exactly whether I didn't for me, 00:29:22.335 --> 00:29:23.415 this wasn't the career. 00:29:23.415 --> 00:29:25.245 This was just, it was a fun thing 00:29:25.245 --> 00:29:26.205 to do on the side. 00:29:26.715 --> 00:29:30.495 And when I, uh, round towards the 00:29:30.495 --> 00:29:32.535 tail end of my time, living in Hawaii, 00:29:32.565 --> 00:29:33.355 I had just, I had. 00:29:34.649 --> 00:29:37.379 The I was lucky and the timing was right. 00:29:37.889 --> 00:29:39.929 And obviously some element of scale, et 00:29:39.929 --> 00:29:41.760 cetera, came into play, but there's a lot of 00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:45.120 luck involved, but I sold a startup successfully 00:29:45.120 --> 00:29:48.870 when I was 20, just, just before my 24th birthday. 00:29:49.590 --> 00:29:51.210 And so I was lucky to be able to have 00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:51.899 lots of freedom. 00:29:51.899 --> 00:29:54.780 I spent somewhere in the order of a year and a 00:29:54.780 --> 00:29:56.760 half on the north shore of Hawaii, trying to 00:29:56.760 --> 00:29:58.500 figure out what to do next in the process, 00:29:58.950 --> 00:30:01.860 fell in love with where the girl that I'm still 00:30:01.860 --> 00:30:05.070 with still in love with, and which is good thing, 00:30:05.100 --> 00:30:06.629 because if I wasn't in love with her, it'd be a 00:30:06.629 --> 00:30:09.360 bit of a problem together for a very long time. 00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:13.169 And she became, you know, she's used a soulmate 00:30:13.169 --> 00:30:14.909 as well as a creative partner, as well as a 00:30:14.909 --> 00:30:15.870 professional partner. 00:30:16.260 --> 00:30:18.750 And actually she was the one who challenged me 00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:21.450 to transition into film because she saw some 00:30:21.450 --> 00:30:22.980 stuff that I'd made and she thought it was pretty 00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:25.290 good, but she, herself as a professional, she was 00:30:25.710 --> 00:30:26.730 an actress and a writer. 00:30:26.730 --> 00:30:28.139 And she'd worked on a number of different 00:30:28.139 --> 00:30:31.889 shows as a lead, uh, and or guest star, 00:30:32.190 --> 00:30:34.080 uh, in, in Vancouver. 00:30:34.350 --> 00:30:36.480 And she, she started into movies. 00:30:36.990 --> 00:30:39.540 And so at some point, I think after, if you 00:30:39.540 --> 00:30:42.300 listened to me a bitch about, you know, the 00:30:42.360 --> 00:30:44.399 third project in a row saying this was 00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:46.500 bad, it should be done like this, this, this 00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:47.399 is not interesting. 00:30:47.610 --> 00:30:48.810 Here's how it would be better. 00:30:49.050 --> 00:30:49.980 She said, you know what, why don't you 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:51.690 stop criticizing other people's work 00:30:51.690 --> 00:30:52.560 and make your own? 00:30:52.830 --> 00:30:55.320 And I went, oh, that's right. 00:30:55.370 --> 00:30:57.330 I don't actually have a comeback to that. 00:30:57.750 --> 00:30:58.020 So. 00:30:58.770 --> 00:30:59.730 So, I didn't know. 00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:01.890 I mean, you said self-taught, I mean, 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:05.910 behind every, as the joke goes, you know, 00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:07.950 behind every great man, there's a, something 00:31:08.130 --> 00:31:09.570 behind every filmmaker. 00:31:09.750 --> 00:31:12.090 There's a team of creative collaborators 00:31:12.390 --> 00:31:14.730 and some of them are people who. 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.070 Perhaps gave you input along the 00:31:17.070 --> 00:31:18.960 way, but weren't actively involved. 00:31:18.990 --> 00:31:20.730 Some of them are people who give you feedback 00:31:20.730 --> 00:31:22.710 during the edits and help tighten everything up. 00:31:23.100 --> 00:31:24.600 But in some cases, whether it's the 00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:27.600 sound guy or the DP or, or someone who's 00:31:27.600 --> 00:31:29.490 just advising as the project's being made, 00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:32.430 no, there's no such thing as a one man show 00:31:32.430 --> 00:31:33.630 on the filmmaking side. 00:31:33.630 --> 00:31:36.660 So yes, I carry the credit of director and 00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:39.480 writer and producer and editor, but let's 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:40.890 just say that there was a lot of people 00:31:40.890 --> 00:31:44.160 involved to help make that documentary 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:45.000 as good as it was. 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.990 Uh, but yes, the, it was, it was definitely 00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:50.640 a baptism by fire. 00:31:50.910 --> 00:31:53.820 So whether it was from the equipment perspective 00:31:53.850 --> 00:31:58.440 or from the scope, cause it was very ambitious. 00:31:58.590 --> 00:31:59.250 Shall we say? 00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:02.920 I mean, just to give you an idea, uh, I 00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:05.890 was when I edit, I often edit to music. 00:32:06.280 --> 00:32:07.990 So I put music in to help drive the 00:32:07.990 --> 00:32:09.280 rhythm of the piece. 00:32:09.970 --> 00:32:12.310 So by the time the documentary was finished, 00:32:12.760 --> 00:32:15.220 there were 14 commercial music tracks in there. 00:32:15.520 --> 00:32:18.100 Now, normally what people do is, is if you're, 00:32:18.100 --> 00:32:19.930 if you're a normal, low budget, independent 00:32:19.930 --> 00:32:21.250 filmmakers, you go, okay, well, I've got 00:32:21.250 --> 00:32:23.290 these commercial music tracks, but I can't 00:32:23.290 --> 00:32:25.660 just go out and get the rolling stones because 00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:26.560 that's too expensive. 00:32:26.560 --> 00:32:28.000 So I'm going to swap it with something 00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:29.530 that kind of sort of sounds like it. 00:32:30.040 --> 00:32:31.840 Yeah, well, I was stupid enough to not do that. 00:32:31.870 --> 00:32:35.380 So, so I took my that's not strictly true. 00:32:35.410 --> 00:32:37.090 Some, two of them we swapped out, but 00:32:37.330 --> 00:32:40.360 because we couldn't get the rights, but what 00:32:40.360 --> 00:32:42.880 we ended up doing is I ended up learning. 00:32:43.120 --> 00:32:45.130 Let's just say more than I expected to 00:32:45.130 --> 00:32:48.280 about, about rights and negotiations and likeness 00:32:48.280 --> 00:32:50.770 rights and dealing with lawyers to get releases. 00:32:51.220 --> 00:32:53.955 But in the end, You know, we ended up, I mean, 00:32:54.165 --> 00:32:56.445 we interviewed Stephen J Cannell, who was the 00:32:56.445 --> 00:32:57.705 creator of the, a team. 00:32:58.095 --> 00:33:00.405 And we had a sequence in there with, which had the 00:33:00.405 --> 00:33:03.225 ATM opening theme tune and the opening titles. 00:33:03.525 --> 00:33:03.825 Right. 00:33:04.155 --> 00:33:05.685 And I didn't want to drop it because I 00:33:05.685 --> 00:33:06.735 thought it was important. 00:33:06.795 --> 00:33:09.045 This particular sequence of the, of the film 00:33:09.405 --> 00:33:12.075 discusses, how the concept of mercenaries 00:33:12.075 --> 00:33:14.835 is treated by the media and what, what role 00:33:14.835 --> 00:33:16.545 that plays in the way they're perceived. 00:33:16.815 --> 00:33:18.555 So I thought it was fundamental to the 00:33:18.555 --> 00:33:19.275 structure of it. 00:33:20.705 --> 00:33:23.135 But, you know, phoning up the studio and saying, 00:33:23.135 --> 00:33:25.054 Hey, can we have the license to the 18 theme 00:33:25.054 --> 00:33:27.905 tune was met with a resounding no, right. 00:33:27.915 --> 00:33:30.125 Slowly but surely we wore them down. 00:33:30.125 --> 00:33:33.245 And that ended up, I had to talk to, um, Mr. 00:33:33.245 --> 00:33:34.355 T's manager. 00:33:34.595 --> 00:33:38.314 I had to talk to, um, Dwight Schultz who played 00:33:38.645 --> 00:33:39.845 howling, Matt Murdoch. 00:33:40.264 --> 00:33:42.695 Uh, I talked to Dirk Benedict himself. 00:33:42.725 --> 00:33:44.135 He's he played face, man. 00:33:44.554 --> 00:33:47.524 Uh, and I can't remember who played Hannibal 00:33:47.524 --> 00:33:48.215 George per part. 00:33:48.215 --> 00:33:48.544 Yes. 00:33:48.875 --> 00:33:50.165 Uh, George for part, unfortunately is no 00:33:50.165 --> 00:33:52.235 longer with us, but, uh, but yes, his, 00:33:52.235 --> 00:33:54.995 his state willingly licensed all this stuff, 00:33:54.995 --> 00:33:57.095 so it took a while, but, but we got there. 00:33:57.334 --> 00:33:58.834 So, yeah, that was definitely a very 00:33:58.834 --> 00:34:00.875 interesting couple of years of my life. 00:34:00.935 --> 00:34:05.465 Trying to, um, understand the hard way shall we say 00:34:05.794 --> 00:34:08.915 how to tell compelling stories, but however 00:34:08.915 --> 00:34:11.495 much effort it was then, as I mentioned with the 00:34:11.495 --> 00:34:13.444 Amazon stuff, that's happening to this day, 00:34:13.955 --> 00:34:18.395 uh, it goes to show you that if you, I think 00:34:18.395 --> 00:34:20.705 if you make something, if you're, if you're a 00:34:20.705 --> 00:34:24.094 discerning judge of your material, if you make 00:34:24.094 --> 00:34:27.605 something that satisfies your standards, then you 00:34:27.605 --> 00:34:28.594 can hold your head high. 00:34:28.594 --> 00:34:31.475 And even though, uh, it's possible that I 00:34:31.475 --> 00:34:34.025 could have met a lot more money if I had. 00:34:34.764 --> 00:34:37.404 Plates to one side of the political equation 00:34:37.404 --> 00:34:39.384 and made, for example, I don't know either an 00:34:39.384 --> 00:34:43.404 extremely right-leaning who Rob pro war gun 00:34:43.404 --> 00:34:45.625 movie, or the other way around and made 00:34:45.625 --> 00:34:48.714 extremely left-leaning a war is hell. 00:34:48.714 --> 00:34:50.154 And these companies were all evil. 00:34:50.484 --> 00:34:52.734 Perhaps it could have made more money, but I 00:34:52.734 --> 00:34:53.424 didn't want to do that. 00:34:53.514 --> 00:34:55.255 I wanted to make something that I felt 00:34:55.255 --> 00:34:56.904 was honest and sincere. 00:34:57.475 --> 00:34:59.065 And th and I'm glad I did that. 00:35:00.205 --> 00:35:02.035 Uh, one thing I've always kind of wondered 00:35:03.415 --> 00:35:05.605 you get a pretty famous person narrating this 00:35:05.605 --> 00:35:09.025 video, you had Dre Butler doing the, uh, the 00:35:09.025 --> 00:35:09.955 narration on that one. 00:35:10.615 --> 00:35:10.705 So, 00:35:10.734 --> 00:35:14.755 so there is a backstory here, and since I don't, 00:35:14.755 --> 00:35:17.185 since I don't want to embarrass her, uh, 00:35:17.185 --> 00:35:19.674 there's a, there's a girl involved in this mix. 00:35:20.455 --> 00:35:22.585 Let's just say a long time ago. 00:35:22.915 --> 00:35:27.055 Um, someone who I knew fairly well as one might 00:35:27.085 --> 00:35:30.075 when one is young and single, um, happened 00:35:30.085 --> 00:35:33.595 to know Jerry, um, and she just said, oh, 00:35:33.595 --> 00:35:34.464 you should meet Jerry. 00:35:34.464 --> 00:35:35.904 He'd be kind of a, he's a cool guy. 00:35:36.085 --> 00:35:38.185 This is way before the movie was being made. 00:35:38.515 --> 00:35:40.645 So, so I'm, you know, I met Jerry in a 00:35:40.645 --> 00:35:42.565 strange context at a nightclub in London. 00:35:42.595 --> 00:35:43.404 He was very friendly. 00:35:43.404 --> 00:35:45.775 I think he was, he was up there shooting some 00:35:45.775 --> 00:35:47.005 movie about dragons. 00:35:47.005 --> 00:35:48.565 I can't for the life of me, remember what it's 00:35:48.565 --> 00:35:52.815 called, but, uh, Um, I'm sure I will, but anyway, 00:35:53.085 --> 00:35:56.565 so he students move about dragons and he, he's 00:35:56.565 --> 00:35:58.755 very, very friendly to me and we stayed in touch. 00:35:59.115 --> 00:36:01.425 And so when I'm thinking about who would be a 00:36:01.425 --> 00:36:04.665 great guy to narrate this, I thought, you 00:36:04.665 --> 00:36:07.425 know, I need this kind of Husky weather, the 00:36:07.425 --> 00:36:08.985 voice, and it would be kind of cool if it 00:36:08.985 --> 00:36:09.915 was an accent in it. 00:36:09.975 --> 00:36:11.925 And what about if we got someone Scottish and I 00:36:11.925 --> 00:36:14.895 didn't think, oh, Jerry, and then randomly, I 00:36:14.895 --> 00:36:16.185 can't remember why it popped into my head. 00:36:16.185 --> 00:36:18.975 I think, I think I remember Dominique was 00:36:18.975 --> 00:36:22.125 invited to some gifting lounge, a gifting lounges 00:36:22.125 --> 00:36:24.645 of these things they do for four actresses 00:36:24.645 --> 00:36:26.895 and actors where they were companies give 00:36:26.895 --> 00:36:28.845 them products in a, in an attempt to promote 00:36:28.845 --> 00:36:29.745 and spread the message. 00:36:30.195 --> 00:36:31.305 She invited to gifting lounge. 00:36:31.305 --> 00:36:32.175 And Jerry was there. 00:36:32.685 --> 00:36:34.065 And as I started talking to him, I'm 00:36:34.065 --> 00:36:34.905 like that voice. 00:36:34.935 --> 00:36:35.805 That's what I need. 00:36:36.225 --> 00:36:37.845 So I said, Hey, do you want to do this thing? 00:36:38.235 --> 00:36:39.675 And he goes, how much money do you have? 00:36:39.675 --> 00:36:40.815 And I'm like, I don't have any money. 00:36:42.645 --> 00:36:43.095 You idiot. 00:36:43.995 --> 00:36:45.465 So he's like, it doesn't work that way. 00:36:45.465 --> 00:36:47.235 And I'm like, dude, it's going to take you like 00:36:47.265 --> 00:36:48.585 40 minutes to do it. 00:36:48.585 --> 00:36:49.365 Just shut up and do it. 00:36:49.365 --> 00:36:50.265 And he's like, okay. 00:36:50.265 --> 00:36:51.525 And I'm like, I can't believe that worked. 00:36:51.945 --> 00:36:55.515 So, so we get them in the studio and uh, 00:36:55.935 --> 00:36:58.215 and of course there's a big sign that says. 00:36:58.805 --> 00:37:02.315 No smoking in the studio and, and the 00:37:02.315 --> 00:37:05.404 woman, who's the manager, uh, effectively 00:37:05.404 --> 00:37:08.134 producing the, the shoot, this particular 00:37:08.134 --> 00:37:09.035 recording session. 00:37:09.154 --> 00:37:12.095 She, she comes in and she goes, yeah, you're 00:37:12.095 --> 00:37:12.935 not allowed to smoke. 00:37:12.935 --> 00:37:14.315 And he just looks at her and lights up a 00:37:14.315 --> 00:37:15.215 cigarette and continues. 00:37:16.685 --> 00:37:18.424 So she just walks away. 00:37:18.785 --> 00:37:21.665 And as it happens, the, the kind of the 00:37:21.665 --> 00:37:24.935 tobacco rasp, I think, is helpful because as 00:37:24.935 --> 00:37:27.785 it ends up sounding more authentic in this case. 00:37:28.145 --> 00:37:29.795 So he did, he did a great job doing that. 00:37:29.795 --> 00:37:32.225 I mean, I, he didn't really need much 00:37:32.255 --> 00:37:35.195 direction at all, if any, if, if anything, 00:37:35.404 --> 00:37:37.055 what we needed, cause it was being done pretty 00:37:37.055 --> 00:37:38.945 quickly as he needed a little bit, a little bit 00:37:38.945 --> 00:37:42.154 of explanation of the terms and the context, 00:37:42.605 --> 00:37:46.205 but I mean, he's, uh, you know, the is a very, very 00:37:46.205 --> 00:37:47.345 experienced performer. 00:37:47.355 --> 00:37:49.174 So he understood from reading it what we 00:37:49.174 --> 00:37:50.165 were trying to do. 00:37:50.705 --> 00:37:53.315 And, uh, it's um, I think it was very happy 00:37:53.315 --> 00:37:54.245 with the final work. 00:37:54.485 --> 00:37:56.404 I mean, he, as I said, he, he didn't 00:37:56.404 --> 00:37:57.125 do this for money. 00:37:57.125 --> 00:37:58.625 He did it because he thought it was an 00:37:58.625 --> 00:38:00.515 interesting story and he wanted to contribute. 00:38:00.515 --> 00:38:03.125 And frankly, it wasn't that much effort for 00:38:03.125 --> 00:38:04.924 him to just read a bunch of stuff in character. 00:38:05.555 --> 00:38:05.615 Yeah. 00:38:05.645 --> 00:38:06.455 It's amazing. 00:38:06.845 --> 00:38:09.485 It's, you know, when I, when I look at your 00:38:09.485 --> 00:38:11.975 life and I keep seeing things popping up, I was 00:38:11.975 --> 00:38:13.115 looking for that video. 00:38:13.115 --> 00:38:14.555 Cause at one point I saw a video of 00:38:14.555 --> 00:38:17.045 you actually you're testifying before Senate. 00:38:17.045 --> 00:38:19.895 I think it was that actually I couldn't 00:38:19.895 --> 00:38:20.525 find it again. 00:38:20.915 --> 00:38:21.154 Yeah. 00:38:21.154 --> 00:38:22.535 That video does exist somewhere. 00:38:22.535 --> 00:38:23.805 So what happened. 00:38:24.975 --> 00:38:27.315 I, uh, I was trying to get as much 00:38:27.315 --> 00:38:29.565 awareness of the documentary as possible. 00:38:29.985 --> 00:38:35.235 So I went to the media liaison. 00:38:35.235 --> 00:38:36.975 I sent a copy of the documentary to the 00:38:36.975 --> 00:38:39.735 media liaison of every Senator, both democratic 00:38:39.825 --> 00:38:42.705 and Republican, uh, on the Senate 00:38:42.705 --> 00:38:43.725 armed subcommittee. 00:38:44.265 --> 00:38:49.275 And all of them got back to me essentially saying 00:38:49.305 --> 00:38:52.245 verses of the same thing, which is, this is great. 00:38:52.245 --> 00:38:53.895 Can we have another 20 copies of this? 00:38:53.895 --> 00:38:55.185 Because we want to use it as training 00:38:55.185 --> 00:38:57.585 material for our, for all of our interns 00:38:57.585 --> 00:38:58.545 and our other staff. 00:38:59.205 --> 00:39:01.845 But, uh, we can't give you an official 00:39:01.845 --> 00:39:04.875 statement because, and it depends on whether 00:39:04.875 --> 00:39:06.615 they were Democrat or Republican in the 00:39:06.615 --> 00:39:07.755 case of the Democrats. 00:39:08.115 --> 00:39:10.215 They said, because it isn't sufficiently 00:39:10.215 --> 00:39:11.805 on brand for what we're doing. 00:39:12.435 --> 00:39:15.675 And in the case of the Republicans, they said, 00:39:16.035 --> 00:39:19.425 well, you know, it takes slight digs of the 00:39:19.425 --> 00:39:21.975 current administration, so, and their handling 00:39:21.975 --> 00:39:23.085 of the conflict in Iraq. 00:39:23.085 --> 00:39:24.255 So therefore we don't really want to 00:39:24.255 --> 00:39:26.115 publicly support it, but it's amazing. 00:39:26.115 --> 00:39:26.895 Can we have some more? 00:39:28.205 --> 00:39:29.325 So I thought that was pretty funny. 00:39:29.335 --> 00:39:31.455 I'm in particular, the line they wanted taken 00:39:31.455 --> 00:39:33.225 out because there was a line and there were 00:39:33.225 --> 00:39:36.750 one of the characters says, um, George Bush 00:39:36.750 --> 00:39:39.150 creates a wild west scenario in Iraq. 00:39:39.180 --> 00:39:40.740 If you've got near for hire there's 00:39:40.740 --> 00:39:41.460 work for you. 00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:43.230 So I say to the guy, I'm talking to him 00:39:43.230 --> 00:39:44.910 on the phone, I go, but, but that's true. 00:39:44.910 --> 00:39:46.620 And he goes, yeah, I know that's true, but 00:39:46.620 --> 00:39:48.360 we just don't want to officially say that. 00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:50.100 And I'm like, oh, well, you know, 00:39:50.100 --> 00:39:51.090 it is what it is. 00:39:51.390 --> 00:39:51.630 Right? 00:39:51.630 --> 00:39:55.050 So, so in the end, what happened was the 00:39:55.050 --> 00:39:59.400 late Ted Kennedy, uh, was the exception. 00:39:59.520 --> 00:40:01.770 And he said, this is great. 00:40:02.190 --> 00:40:06.210 And I would like to officially, uh, hold 00:40:06.240 --> 00:40:09.960 a screening on Capitol hill with a Q and a, 00:40:10.530 --> 00:40:12.300 uh, and we did do that. 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:14.700 They, we hired a private theater somewhere and 00:40:14.700 --> 00:40:16.500 we invited a bunch of staffers and a number 00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:19.080 while, while very few actual members 00:40:19.080 --> 00:40:20.880 of Congress came to that screening. 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.580 Uh, they did send almost everybody sends 00:40:23.580 --> 00:40:25.020 a representative as there was a lot of media 00:40:25.020 --> 00:40:26.100 coverage of that event. 00:40:26.520 --> 00:40:29.040 Uh, Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky, I believe 00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:31.200 was the main person who was there at the Q and 00:40:31.200 --> 00:40:35.430 a, and then, uh, as a result of the response 00:40:35.430 --> 00:40:38.880 to that screening, there was an actual event. 00:40:39.750 --> 00:40:41.490 I forget what it's called, but I guess 00:40:41.490 --> 00:40:43.920 it's a testimony that was a testimony in 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.830 front of, uh, in front of the U S Senate. 00:40:47.340 --> 00:40:49.920 And that was the, the so-called subject 00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:52.830 matter expert testimony on the usage of 00:40:52.830 --> 00:40:54.029 mercenaries in Iraq. 00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:55.560 But the funny part is that. 00:40:56.790 --> 00:40:58.170 For someone who's never done this before. 00:40:58.200 --> 00:41:00.270 Namely me, it's a really, really 00:41:00.270 --> 00:41:02.220 interesting introduction into how this stuff 00:41:02.250 --> 00:41:03.120 actually works. 00:41:03.450 --> 00:41:06.180 You see, I thought that the idea was, as you 00:41:06.180 --> 00:41:07.830 know, I come there, I make my five minute 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:09.750 statement, which I'm being asked to prepare. 00:41:10.080 --> 00:41:11.550 And then I'm asked questions and I'm 00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:14.070 assuming that they want to know the answers 00:41:14.070 --> 00:41:14.759 to the questions. 00:41:14.790 --> 00:41:16.800 That's why I'm, that's why I'm there to ought 00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:18.720 to be, to answer those questions because I'm 00:41:18.720 --> 00:41:20.850 the expert because that's not what, that's not 00:41:20.850 --> 00:41:21.690 what actually happens. 00:41:22.050 --> 00:41:24.690 What actually happens is they want to get the 00:41:24.690 --> 00:41:26.070 questions on record. 00:41:26.850 --> 00:41:30.000 They carry what a bit less about the answer 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.730 that I give than they do about getting their 00:41:32.730 --> 00:41:33.900 statement on record. 00:41:34.110 --> 00:41:36.090 And I mean this across the board, both on 00:41:36.090 --> 00:41:38.730 the Republican and the Democrat side, because 00:41:38.759 --> 00:41:40.980 when all is said and done what's necessary 00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:42.540 is for them to show that they're making 00:41:42.540 --> 00:41:44.759 an effort and thinking about a particular thing. 00:41:45.180 --> 00:41:47.340 So I was frankly, astounded. 00:41:47.905 --> 00:41:52.195 By how, how their questions demonstrated 00:41:52.435 --> 00:41:54.775 how little they knew about the subject. 00:41:55.285 --> 00:41:58.435 And I mean, I can understand if you just 00:41:58.435 --> 00:41:59.905 get plucked in the middle of nowhere at a 00:41:59.905 --> 00:42:02.485 barbecue, and somebody starts talking to you 00:42:02.485 --> 00:42:04.315 about a particular subject, that's very, 00:42:04.315 --> 00:42:06.835 very niche that you may not know about it. 00:42:07.195 --> 00:42:10.585 But if it's the usage of contractors in a 00:42:10.585 --> 00:42:13.075 major conflict that the country is involved 00:42:13.075 --> 00:42:15.505 in, and on top of that, it's a session that 00:42:15.505 --> 00:42:16.735 you're preparing for. 00:42:16.975 --> 00:42:18.745 And on top of that, somebody is preparing 00:42:18.745 --> 00:42:20.065 questions for you. 00:42:20.545 --> 00:42:22.585 It was baffling to me that the question 00:42:22.595 --> 00:42:23.755 seemed a bit inane. 00:42:24.295 --> 00:42:28.105 And that's why when I look at, for example, I 00:42:28.105 --> 00:42:30.505 don't know the testimony of people like mark 00:42:30.505 --> 00:42:32.995 Zuckerberg or, or when various different 00:42:33.235 --> 00:42:35.395 executives are called in front of Congress and 00:42:35.395 --> 00:42:38.095 the Senate to testify and look at some of the daft 00:42:38.095 --> 00:42:39.295 questions that are asked. 00:42:39.715 --> 00:42:41.605 I don't even roll my eyes anymore because 00:42:41.605 --> 00:42:42.955 I remember what it was like for me. 00:42:42.955 --> 00:42:45.295 And when I thought, wait a second, you're asking 00:42:45.295 --> 00:42:47.095 something that, that doesn't make any sense. 00:42:47.095 --> 00:42:48.115 That means you fundamentally 00:42:48.115 --> 00:42:49.495 misunderstood what your. 00:42:50.565 --> 00:42:52.634 What the problem is, I believe, I 00:42:52.634 --> 00:42:53.055 don't remember. 00:42:53.055 --> 00:42:54.285 It's been a long time, but I believe 00:42:54.285 --> 00:42:58.275 the opening line of my, of my five minute 00:42:58.275 --> 00:43:01.995 testimony testimony was that it's baffling 00:43:01.995 --> 00:43:06.765 to me that the highest level of law makers in 00:43:06.765 --> 00:43:10.515 this land are asking for expert testimony 00:43:10.515 --> 00:43:13.035 from a first time documentary filmmaker. 00:43:13.825 --> 00:43:15.345 Whereas, whereas it should be the 00:43:15.345 --> 00:43:16.545 other way around. 00:43:16.904 --> 00:43:17.115 Right. 00:43:17.805 --> 00:43:20.205 And I don't, I mean, let's just say, I, 00:43:20.265 --> 00:43:22.005 I didn't anticipate ever being invited 00:43:22.005 --> 00:43:22.875 back, put it that way. 00:43:22.875 --> 00:43:24.705 So I had nothing, I had nothing to lose. 00:43:24.975 --> 00:43:26.325 I just thought I'm just going to say my 00:43:26.325 --> 00:43:30.045 bit and answer the questions as best I can. 00:43:30.045 --> 00:43:31.005 And we'll see what happens. 00:43:32.654 --> 00:43:34.275 I don't know that I'd make a good politician, 00:43:34.275 --> 00:43:35.654 but that, wasn't why I was there. 00:43:35.654 --> 00:43:38.174 I was there because I thought I'm going 00:43:38.174 --> 00:43:40.005 to answer questions because that's what I 00:43:40.005 --> 00:43:40.785 believe I'm here for 00:43:41.535 --> 00:43:43.935 a whole different stage on the political level. 00:43:43.935 --> 00:43:44.415 Isn't it? 00:43:44.805 --> 00:43:44.985 Yeah. 00:43:45.915 --> 00:43:48.045 Now you also did something with vice 00:43:48.045 --> 00:43:49.365 documentary, didn't you? 00:43:49.365 --> 00:43:51.045 That was on the, uh, the Boko Haram. 00:43:51.375 --> 00:43:51.884 It was. 00:43:51.884 --> 00:43:52.185 Yeah. 00:43:52.185 --> 00:43:56.595 So what happened as a result of, uh, working 00:43:56.625 --> 00:43:59.805 in and around this space of contractors? 00:43:59.895 --> 00:44:03.345 I, as I mentioned, I'm, I became quite close to 00:44:03.345 --> 00:44:05.235 a couple of individuals, chief amongst them, 00:44:05.325 --> 00:44:06.465 Alan and cobras. 00:44:07.125 --> 00:44:10.575 And, uh, one day, a couple of years had 00:44:10.575 --> 00:44:14.025 gone by, and one day I received this call, um, 00:44:14.654 --> 00:44:16.995 from, from Cobas saying. 00:44:17.925 --> 00:44:20.775 Hey, listen, there's a, there's a contract coming 00:44:20.775 --> 00:44:25.575 up and, um, I need some media coverage for it. 00:44:26.325 --> 00:44:28.575 And I said, what, what does that mean? 00:44:28.695 --> 00:44:29.535 What's a contract. 00:44:29.535 --> 00:44:31.125 And he's like, well, and he, and he's, he's 00:44:31.125 --> 00:44:33.705 being evasive, but also careful, but he 00:44:33.705 --> 00:44:37.815 eventually does reveal that there is a, uh, 00:44:37.845 --> 00:44:40.785 there's a, the Nigerian government has contracted 00:44:40.785 --> 00:44:44.745 with a group, um, from South Africa to, 00:44:44.745 --> 00:44:46.695 to essentially stamp out the vocal Harambe 00:44:46.695 --> 00:44:49.725 problem, uh, PRI in the run-up to the elections. 00:44:50.445 --> 00:44:53.415 Now, as it happens, the president lost those 00:44:53.415 --> 00:44:55.365 elections, the president who had contracted with 00:44:55.365 --> 00:44:57.075 them, which created all kinds of problems 00:44:57.075 --> 00:44:59.295 for, for contracts and payments, but that's 00:44:59.595 --> 00:45:02.055 well beyond the scope of, of this conversation. 00:45:02.975 --> 00:45:04.755 From my perspective, what was fascinating 00:45:04.755 --> 00:45:09.705 for me is that, uh, is knowing ahead of time 00:45:09.765 --> 00:45:12.675 that there would be an, there would be activity, 00:45:12.675 --> 00:45:14.685 which would, which would be fascinating 00:45:14.685 --> 00:45:17.655 to explore from a storytelling perspective. 00:45:17.715 --> 00:45:21.765 So while between that initial conversation and 00:45:21.765 --> 00:45:24.015 the actual deployment of the crew on the ground, 00:45:24.465 --> 00:45:27.075 I think two or three months past that most, 00:45:27.285 --> 00:45:29.865 perhaps even less than that, but let's just say 00:45:29.865 --> 00:45:32.475 that I ended up having to rapidly put together 00:45:32.805 --> 00:45:35.325 a crew as well as structural story, as well 00:45:35.325 --> 00:45:37.695 as find a broadcast or in this case of ice was, 00:45:37.725 --> 00:45:38.745 was a really good fit. 00:45:39.225 --> 00:45:43.890 So, um, The hunt for book or Harambe, I 00:45:43.890 --> 00:45:45.810 believe is the, is the name of this piece. 00:45:45.810 --> 00:45:47.339 And it's, it's easily find-able. 00:45:47.910 --> 00:45:50.879 And I ended up for a variety of different 00:45:50.879 --> 00:45:53.100 reasons, primarily to do with my green card. 00:45:53.430 --> 00:45:55.319 For, for those who don't know when you're in your 00:45:55.319 --> 00:45:57.450 final steps of getting your green card, you 00:45:57.450 --> 00:45:58.529 can't leave the country. 00:45:58.980 --> 00:46:01.770 So, uh, and I was literally two or 00:46:01.770 --> 00:46:02.549 three weeks out. 00:46:02.609 --> 00:46:04.930 If I'd left the country, I would have, 00:46:04.939 --> 00:46:06.330 I either had to get it. 00:46:06.359 --> 00:46:08.339 In which case, if I got it, I could be involved, 00:46:08.430 --> 00:46:10.919 uh, on the ground in this project or I had to, or 00:46:10.919 --> 00:46:13.350 I had to wait because if I left prior to getting 00:46:13.350 --> 00:46:15.149 it, the whole cycle resets and I might have 00:46:15.149 --> 00:46:17.160 to wait for another year or two before I got it. 00:46:18.210 --> 00:46:20.759 So I had to quickly find someone who was 00:46:21.379 --> 00:46:23.910 dumb enough and brave enough to, to run 00:46:23.910 --> 00:46:25.049 point instead of me. 00:46:25.529 --> 00:46:27.870 And I found a guy called Carl Larson. 00:46:27.870 --> 00:46:29.790 So if you do look up this piece, a former Navy 00:46:29.790 --> 00:46:30.810 seal called cars Larson. 00:46:31.545 --> 00:46:33.945 Couple of stints advice news. 00:46:34.335 --> 00:46:37.185 Um, I, so I set up the entire project, talked 00:46:37.195 --> 00:46:38.715 everything up on the ground and control 00:46:38.715 --> 00:46:39.165 the whole thing. 00:46:39.165 --> 00:46:40.275 Creative would remotely. 00:46:40.665 --> 00:46:42.805 But if you do look up this piece, you, you 00:46:42.815 --> 00:46:45.255 won't find, you won't find me on the screen. 00:46:45.675 --> 00:46:48.225 Uh, you will find me as an executive producer 00:46:48.225 --> 00:46:50.415 of the project, but yeah, there was lots of 00:46:50.415 --> 00:46:52.575 conversations since about doing various different 00:46:52.575 --> 00:46:54.795 things with vice vice has changed quite a lot. 00:46:55.195 --> 00:46:57.645 The vice doesn't take into near as many 00:46:57.645 --> 00:46:59.625 risks as they used to in the material 00:46:59.895 --> 00:47:01.095 they've become too big. 00:47:01.515 --> 00:47:04.485 But, uh, but it was, it was certainly fun to get 00:47:04.485 --> 00:47:07.245 involved in that project, especially because I 00:47:07.245 --> 00:47:09.765 remember a couple of unusual things happening, 00:47:09.765 --> 00:47:13.985 for example, uh, um, college, a nine Cobas, 00:47:13.985 --> 00:47:15.705 and I would communicate quite regularly. 00:47:16.305 --> 00:47:20.265 And, uh, one day in, uh, in the middle of the 00:47:20.265 --> 00:47:23.895 night, like about 2:00 AM or something, phone rings 00:47:24.645 --> 00:47:26.205 and answer the phone. 00:47:26.235 --> 00:47:27.885 Cause I don't know what's going to happen. 00:47:27.895 --> 00:47:30.045 And there's an active project in an active 00:47:30.045 --> 00:47:31.095 war zone going on. 00:47:31.095 --> 00:47:33.795 So for all I know there's a satellite 00:47:33.795 --> 00:47:35.535 phone call coming in and ready to answer it. 00:47:36.135 --> 00:47:38.235 So I answered the phone as department of state 00:47:38.445 --> 00:47:39.885 and I go, Hey, what's up? 00:47:40.275 --> 00:47:41.745 And they go a unique business. 00:47:41.745 --> 00:47:41.985 Should I go? 00:47:41.985 --> 00:47:42.225 Yep. 00:47:42.795 --> 00:47:44.475 And they said, yeah, one of our assets is 00:47:44.475 --> 00:47:45.705 missing in Nigeria. 00:47:46.065 --> 00:47:47.985 And I go, I'm sorry, what? 00:47:48.705 --> 00:47:50.235 And they said, yeah, one of our assets will sort 00:47:50.235 --> 00:47:52.665 of come onto cause Larson is missing in Nigeria. 00:47:52.665 --> 00:47:53.955 And I'm like, what do you mean missing? 00:47:54.435 --> 00:47:55.365 Define missing. 00:47:55.365 --> 00:47:57.285 Cause my next check-in with them is in three 00:47:57.285 --> 00:47:59.505 hours and he goes, yeah, he missed his last check. 00:47:59.515 --> 00:48:00.555 And then I go, not with me here. 00:48:02.190 --> 00:48:05.009 As far, as far as I'm concerned, uh, he's not 00:48:05.040 --> 00:48:07.680 there on, on an active government mission, he's 00:48:07.680 --> 00:48:08.970 there on a vice project. 00:48:09.600 --> 00:48:11.190 And he said, yeah, that's right. 00:48:11.190 --> 00:48:12.630 Something, something, something, the point is 00:48:12.630 --> 00:48:15.900 they'd lost track of him turns out that the reason 00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:19.380 this happened is because some girl that caused 00:48:19.650 --> 00:48:23.130 was semi involved with, at that time, he told 00:48:23.130 --> 00:48:24.690 her he was going to call her at a certain point. 00:48:24.690 --> 00:48:25.470 He didn't call her. 00:48:25.620 --> 00:48:26.640 She didn't answer the phone. 00:48:26.670 --> 00:48:27.540 She went bananas. 00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:28.590 She thought something happened. 00:48:28.590 --> 00:48:30.060 She pushed the panic button, happened 00:48:30.060 --> 00:48:31.500 to know someone at department of state. 00:48:31.740 --> 00:48:33.840 All of a sudden one plus one equals a thousand. 00:48:34.290 --> 00:48:35.190 So I thought it was a fun. 00:48:35.250 --> 00:48:37.770 It was, it was pretty funny that, uh, let's 00:48:37.770 --> 00:48:41.310 just say that domino effects are, or butterfly 00:48:41.310 --> 00:48:43.830 effects are quite a real thing in this scenario. 00:48:43.830 --> 00:48:47.280 So yeah, lots of, lots of interesting side stories. 00:48:47.550 --> 00:48:52.770 The tail end, you know, vices, vices, a lovely 00:48:52.770 --> 00:48:56.160 place to be if they're willing to take certain 00:48:56.160 --> 00:48:58.920 risks, but it's also nasty place to be. 00:48:59.250 --> 00:49:00.900 Um, because it's very easy to get screwed 00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:03.030 over as an independent filmmaker by price. 00:49:03.210 --> 00:49:05.640 And sadly that happened in this case because 00:49:05.930 --> 00:49:07.380 they wanted to do another piece about 00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:10.259 vocal Harum and they did it using some 00:49:10.259 --> 00:49:11.610 contexts that were mine. 00:49:12.030 --> 00:49:15.270 Um, but without any, without asking you about 00:49:15.270 --> 00:49:16.770 this, I didn't even know it was happening until 00:49:16.770 --> 00:49:18.810 my guys called me and said, what's going on? 00:49:19.140 --> 00:49:20.790 Why is vise doing a follow-up piece? 00:49:20.790 --> 00:49:23.759 So it's a shitty thing to do, but it's 00:49:23.759 --> 00:49:25.410 the prerogative of big broadcasters. 00:49:25.410 --> 00:49:26.970 So you gotta be careful because you're playing 00:49:26.970 --> 00:49:28.410 with fire when you play with companies. 00:49:29.655 --> 00:49:30.225 No kidding. 00:49:30.285 --> 00:49:30.495 Well, 00:49:30.495 --> 00:49:32.325 it's a hell of a good documentary. 00:49:32.415 --> 00:49:33.705 I'm going to put a link to it in the, 00:49:33.705 --> 00:49:35.985 uh, in the podcast on YouTube as well. 00:49:36.495 --> 00:49:38.205 Uh, very interesting. 00:49:38.355 --> 00:49:40.425 Same with the executive outcomes. 00:49:40.455 --> 00:49:44.865 I mean, that was what 120 550 professional soldiers 00:49:44.865 --> 00:49:46.365 that stabilized an entire 00:49:46.365 --> 00:49:46.815 country. 00:49:47.055 --> 00:49:49.515 Yeah, it was 150 versus 15,000. 00:49:49.545 --> 00:49:52.635 So, so a little bit magnificent seven ask. 00:49:53.055 --> 00:49:55.605 But, uh, but obviously, you know, one side just 00:49:55.605 --> 00:49:57.765 had a case and they were kids and the other 00:49:57.765 --> 00:50:00.285 side were highly trained soldiers with gunships, 00:50:00.645 --> 00:50:03.825 but nonetheless, it's still, it's not, 00:50:04.095 --> 00:50:06.285 it's not a normal scenario by any means. 00:50:06.345 --> 00:50:09.495 And it's, it's that very thing that makes 00:50:09.495 --> 00:50:11.235 it a fascinating story to explore. 00:50:11.475 --> 00:50:13.875 So I'm definitely looking forward to telling 00:50:13.875 --> 00:50:17.205 that story at, uh, on a larger dramatic scale. 00:50:17.655 --> 00:50:19.935 So, um, if there's anyone here who knows people 00:50:19.935 --> 00:50:22.365 at Amazon tell them they should make a movie 00:50:22.365 --> 00:50:24.255 version of this because they should it's ready. 00:50:24.705 --> 00:50:25.605 Absolutely. 00:50:26.595 --> 00:50:31.785 So then I watched echo echo, and that was a 00:50:31.785 --> 00:50:33.615 neat adventure that you started working on. 00:50:33.615 --> 00:50:37.095 But I think an Apple's find me kind of a mess 00:50:37.095 --> 00:50:39.855 with that one a little bit, but it seemed 00:50:39.855 --> 00:50:42.255 like it was completely, completely different from 00:50:42.255 --> 00:50:43.875 all of the other things that you've been doing. 00:50:44.085 --> 00:50:45.855 You seem to be able to pivot really, 00:50:45.855 --> 00:50:46.095 really well. 00:50:47.345 --> 00:50:51.004 They, um, I mean, there's a term, a 00:50:51.004 --> 00:50:51.995 Renaissance, man. 00:50:51.995 --> 00:50:55.025 It sounds a little bit sort of lofty, but 00:50:55.265 --> 00:50:57.935 what it really means is that I like to skip 00:50:58.055 --> 00:51:00.455 between the left and right side of my brain. 00:51:01.345 --> 00:51:02.825 One side is quite technical. 00:51:02.825 --> 00:51:04.415 The other side is quite creative. 00:51:04.714 --> 00:51:07.355 So the creative side is constantly looking 00:51:07.355 --> 00:51:09.995 for stories, stories that I find interesting 00:51:10.654 --> 00:51:14.585 to read about, to be a part of, to create, or 00:51:14.825 --> 00:51:17.585 I want to essentially when I read something 00:51:17.585 --> 00:51:19.805 or watch something that I'm curious about, I 00:51:19.805 --> 00:51:21.845 like the way that makes me feel the curiosity 00:51:21.845 --> 00:51:24.995 is vital to driving me, to making me want to 00:51:25.174 --> 00:51:26.194 wake up every morning. 00:51:26.194 --> 00:51:27.335 I constantly want to learn. 00:51:27.725 --> 00:51:29.975 And when I do that, I want to share that 00:51:29.975 --> 00:51:30.754 with other people. 00:51:30.964 --> 00:51:33.515 Sometimes it's as simple as going, oh look, here's 00:51:33.515 --> 00:51:34.295 an interesting story. 00:51:34.295 --> 00:51:36.484 He's interesting medium post an instinct podcast. 00:51:36.725 --> 00:51:38.855 I'm going to share it with my friends, but 00:51:38.855 --> 00:51:41.075 sometimes it's a lot more complicated and 00:51:41.075 --> 00:51:43.504 that's sometimes it's my particular way of 00:51:43.504 --> 00:51:44.495 looking at the story. 00:51:44.495 --> 00:51:47.165 And I connect this fact with this fact and in the 00:51:47.165 --> 00:51:49.325 middle, I add a little bit of a spin to it. 00:51:49.625 --> 00:51:52.085 So that often meant that sometimes I would 00:51:52.085 --> 00:51:54.725 write about stuff I did write on medium 00:51:54.725 --> 00:51:55.984 for, for a fair while. 00:51:56.375 --> 00:51:58.355 And sometimes it would require more than that, 00:51:58.415 --> 00:52:01.025 whether it was making a documentary or creating 00:52:01.025 --> 00:52:04.984 a product or creating a company, or in this case, 00:52:05.015 --> 00:52:07.205 writing a screenplay for executive outcomes. 00:52:08.335 --> 00:52:10.075 But there were, there were all very 00:52:10.075 --> 00:52:11.125 similar things. 00:52:11.335 --> 00:52:13.645 So in the case that you mentioned, which 00:52:13.645 --> 00:52:17.154 is echo echo, this was, this was a couple 00:52:17.154 --> 00:52:17.995 of different things. 00:52:18.025 --> 00:52:22.975 One was that I was frustrated with Hollywood 00:52:23.005 --> 00:52:26.665 because Hollywood, there's a bit of a catch 00:52:26.665 --> 00:52:30.265 22 inside a catch 22 in Hollywood, whereby 00:52:30.835 --> 00:52:33.265 it doesn't matter how good your material is. 00:52:33.595 --> 00:52:36.295 There's gotta be a reason why somebody 00:52:36.295 --> 00:52:38.485 will give you the money to make a project. 00:52:38.995 --> 00:52:41.485 And usually the reason is because you made a 00:52:41.485 --> 00:52:43.375 project before and it was really successful. 00:52:43.555 --> 00:52:43.795 Yeah. 00:52:43.795 --> 00:52:44.305 That's great. 00:52:44.305 --> 00:52:46.735 But how you make the first project because 00:52:46.795 --> 00:52:47.665 it's all well, and good. 00:52:47.665 --> 00:52:49.675 If you've just directed, I don't know. 00:52:50.910 --> 00:52:53.460 Iron man three and they go, Hey, we're 00:52:53.460 --> 00:52:54.390 doing Ironman for you. 00:52:54.390 --> 00:52:55.200 Want to do it again? 00:52:55.379 --> 00:52:55.890 We'll surprise. 00:52:55.890 --> 00:52:57.750 Surprise that it's easy, but how do you 00:52:57.750 --> 00:52:58.560 get the first one? 00:52:58.620 --> 00:53:00.180 And it's always an interesting problem 00:53:00.450 --> 00:53:03.240 because either you have a shit ton of money, so 00:53:03.240 --> 00:53:07.799 you do it yourself or your, the son or daughter 00:53:07.799 --> 00:53:10.710 or husband or boyfriend of somebody super famous 00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:13.020 and you effectively get them to be in it. 00:53:13.020 --> 00:53:14.940 They do it for you or you, or, you know, a 00:53:14.940 --> 00:53:17.040 famous director or, you know, a famous producer. 00:53:17.399 --> 00:53:21.899 It's very, very rare that you can just brute force 00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:25.200 to use a sort of, um, a computer security term. 00:53:25.379 --> 00:53:28.740 You can brute force your way to, to getting 00:53:28.770 --> 00:53:30.000 a project greenlit. 00:53:30.629 --> 00:53:34.230 So I was slowly but steadily learning 00:53:34.259 --> 00:53:36.359 the ropes of how to make things 00:53:36.359 --> 00:53:37.470 happen in Hollywood. 00:53:38.129 --> 00:53:42.540 And, uh, ultimately I got frustrated waiting 00:53:42.990 --> 00:53:45.480 and I decided, well, hang on a second. 00:53:45.990 --> 00:53:47.609 Perhaps Silicon valley is a little more 00:53:47.609 --> 00:53:49.620 meritocratic because of Silicon valley. 00:53:49.799 --> 00:53:51.899 If you come with a good idea, you 00:53:51.899 --> 00:53:54.060 really only have one level of gatekeeper. 00:53:54.330 --> 00:53:55.649 If you can cook, if you need money 00:53:55.649 --> 00:53:58.140 for the project, if you can convince a 00:53:58.140 --> 00:53:59.220 venture capital firm. 00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:01.850 And usually it's a, either a junior partner 00:54:01.850 --> 00:54:03.270 or senior partner, depending on the size 00:54:03.270 --> 00:54:05.250 of the firm, but it's usually only one or two 00:54:05.250 --> 00:54:06.870 levels of pitch meeting that you have to go 00:54:06.870 --> 00:54:08.850 through and you can get. 00:54:09.600 --> 00:54:12.650 A seed round funded, whether it's depends on 00:54:12.660 --> 00:54:16.320 what you need, $250,000, $1 million, but up to 00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:19.259 $1 million worth of initial funding rounds 00:54:19.259 --> 00:54:20.310 are not uncommon. 00:54:20.700 --> 00:54:22.259 If you know what you're talking about. 00:54:22.290 --> 00:54:24.150 If you have a compelling enough product that 00:54:24.150 --> 00:54:26.700 you can articulate correctly to investors. 00:54:27.060 --> 00:54:29.700 So that's exactly what happened with echo echo. 00:54:30.030 --> 00:54:32.610 Uh, I was, this was prior to the days 00:54:32.610 --> 00:54:33.750 of find my phone. 00:54:33.750 --> 00:54:35.700 And prior to the days of being able to send, 00:54:35.700 --> 00:54:38.130 send your location very easily, I was 00:54:38.130 --> 00:54:40.290 frustrated because I had just moved to Los 00:54:40.290 --> 00:54:44.550 Angeles and I found it hard to meet up with 00:54:44.550 --> 00:54:47.700 my girlfriend because I would constantly go, 00:54:48.150 --> 00:54:49.710 okay, it's a giant city. 00:54:49.710 --> 00:54:50.880 I'm driving everywhere. 00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:52.470 There's no, there's no real core that 00:54:52.470 --> 00:54:53.250 you can walk around. 00:54:53.250 --> 00:54:54.960 Like there isn't in many other cities, 00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:56.580 including Vancouver or wherever where we'd be 00:54:56.580 --> 00:54:57.870 living up until then. 00:54:58.590 --> 00:55:00.450 So my most common text message I was 00:55:00.450 --> 00:55:02.040 sent to my girlfriend was where are you? 00:55:02.759 --> 00:55:08.250 And, um, she'd go, oh, I'm at the corner of, I 00:55:08.250 --> 00:55:09.810 dunno, Melrose and third. 00:55:10.410 --> 00:55:11.790 Well, that's great, but I have no idea where 00:55:11.790 --> 00:55:14.759 that is because I don't know LA, so I would type 00:55:14.759 --> 00:55:17.160 into my phone to Google Melrose and third, an 00:55:17.190 --> 00:55:18.600 upward pop-up a blue dot. 00:55:19.455 --> 00:55:21.495 With where mellow, sorry, not a blue dot up, but 00:55:21.495 --> 00:55:23.115 pop up a dot of Melrose. 00:55:23.115 --> 00:55:25.935 And third, the problem is I now know where 00:55:25.935 --> 00:55:28.185 she is, but she doesn't know where I am. 00:55:28.875 --> 00:55:29.775 So that's annoying. 00:55:29.775 --> 00:55:30.945 So I thought this is ridiculous. 00:55:30.945 --> 00:55:32.355 There's got to be a better way of doing 00:55:32.355 --> 00:55:33.915 this has gotta be a simple way that I can 00:55:33.945 --> 00:55:35.595 ping that's the echo. 00:55:35.895 --> 00:55:37.755 And if she responds, pops up on her phone 00:55:37.755 --> 00:55:38.985 saying Nick was through where you are. 00:55:38.985 --> 00:55:39.525 Yes or no. 00:55:39.945 --> 00:55:41.265 And if she says, no, nothing happens. 00:55:41.265 --> 00:55:42.795 If she says, yes, we see each other 00:55:42.795 --> 00:55:44.235 immediately and we can find each other. 00:55:44.235 --> 00:55:46.275 And we even have the ability to click and 00:55:46.275 --> 00:55:47.445 suggest a meeting point. 00:55:47.685 --> 00:55:49.245 It would suggest a meeting point like you 00:55:49.245 --> 00:55:51.075 could say hit, okay, I want this Starbucks. 00:55:51.255 --> 00:55:52.845 Then we would both get a ping saying, Hey, 00:55:52.845 --> 00:55:55.305 meeting at the Starbucks, go and we'd find each 00:55:55.305 --> 00:55:58.155 other super simple, super elegant surprise, 00:55:58.155 --> 00:56:01.395 surprise, Google ventures back this because it's an 00:56:01.425 --> 00:56:05.055 easy and obvious addition to Google maps and for 00:56:05.055 --> 00:56:07.095 a variety of different reasons, lots of lessons 00:56:07.095 --> 00:56:07.935 learned along the way. 00:56:07.935 --> 00:56:09.825 It didn't quite work out as a startup, but 00:56:09.825 --> 00:56:14.145 it was a fascinating, um, accelerated learning 00:56:14.145 --> 00:56:17.325 experience of how to structure a startups. 00:56:17.325 --> 00:56:19.245 How does venture capital work in Silicon 00:56:19.245 --> 00:56:21.585 valley, um, how to make cross-platform 00:56:21.585 --> 00:56:22.275 applications? 00:56:22.275 --> 00:56:23.865 Because ultimately we ended up doing this 00:56:23.865 --> 00:56:26.715 on Android and iPhone and Blackberry and 00:56:26.715 --> 00:56:30.615 Nokia was well for, for a hot second there, 00:56:30.615 --> 00:56:32.235 it looked like Nokia might actually be a 00:56:32.235 --> 00:56:34.605 platform, which for all intents purposes, they 00:56:34.605 --> 00:56:35.925 should have been, but they dropped the ball. 00:56:36.795 --> 00:56:37.605 So yeah, that was a. 00:56:38.405 --> 00:56:40.505 That was my first, certainly not my first 00:56:40.505 --> 00:56:41.495 technology startup. 00:56:41.525 --> 00:56:43.325 Cause my first technology startup was the one 00:56:43.325 --> 00:56:45.485 back in the UK that I sold successfully, 00:56:45.875 --> 00:56:48.665 but this was my first mobile application. 00:56:48.695 --> 00:56:51.635 And also my first Silicon valley rodeo, not the 00:56:51.635 --> 00:56:52.775 last by any means. 00:56:53.195 --> 00:56:57.065 So it was, uh, an interesting time because 00:56:57.365 --> 00:57:01.505 w what, what I ended up realizing fairly 00:57:01.505 --> 00:57:07.175 rapidly was that where I'm happiest and also 00:57:07.175 --> 00:57:10.655 most valuable to, to, to accompany, because 00:57:10.655 --> 00:57:13.325 essentially it's fine to go to myself, 00:57:13.355 --> 00:57:14.795 but ultimately when you're part of the 00:57:14.795 --> 00:57:16.445 company, the company is greater than you. 00:57:16.685 --> 00:57:19.265 Not, not just because of the fact that there 00:57:19.265 --> 00:57:21.245 are other employees involved in as a team, 00:57:21.545 --> 00:57:23.945 but also because you are ultimately responsible 00:57:23.945 --> 00:57:24.875 to your investors. 00:57:25.145 --> 00:57:27.275 It's not just about you, even though you might be 00:57:27.275 --> 00:57:30.305 an interesting part of the company's, uh, fame 00:57:30.305 --> 00:57:34.475 and growth, potential, and PR it's about return 00:57:34.475 --> 00:57:37.175 on investment, because ultimately if you can do 00:57:37.175 --> 00:57:39.095 that bit successfully, then investible 00:57:39.095 --> 00:57:40.505 Bacchae for other things, because you've 00:57:40.535 --> 00:57:41.405 given them success. 00:57:41.405 --> 00:57:43.805 Once I realized that where I add the most 00:57:43.805 --> 00:57:47.135 value is in being able to, shall we say. 00:57:48.615 --> 00:57:52.365 Uh, see into the future a little bit further than 00:57:52.365 --> 00:57:53.595 other people can see. 00:57:54.134 --> 00:57:58.395 There's a, there's an old phrase, which is, which 00:57:58.395 --> 00:58:01.905 is, which is a funny one, which is that, um, uh, 00:58:01.905 --> 00:58:03.525 the difference between talent and genius. 00:58:03.555 --> 00:58:04.695 I don't know if you've ever heard that one 00:58:04.695 --> 00:58:09.735 before, but so-so talent hits a target that 00:58:09.855 --> 00:58:10.634 other people contact. 00:58:11.715 --> 00:58:11.985 Right. 00:58:11.985 --> 00:58:12.645 That makes sense. 00:58:12.645 --> 00:58:12.915 Right. 00:58:12.945 --> 00:58:14.505 You know, there's a target there and people 00:58:14.505 --> 00:58:16.335 are trying to hit it and they can see it. 00:58:16.335 --> 00:58:17.955 They can hit it to keep missing a talent can 00:58:17.955 --> 00:58:18.795 go bang and hit it. 00:58:19.605 --> 00:58:22.545 Um, genius hits a target that no one else can see. 00:58:23.715 --> 00:58:26.895 So it means that you're looking slightly 00:58:26.895 --> 00:58:28.425 ahead and slightly around the corner. 00:58:28.425 --> 00:58:30.045 Cause if you can't see the target, well, you 00:58:30.045 --> 00:58:32.475 can't hit the thing that doesn't make any sense. 00:58:32.475 --> 00:58:32.685 Right. 00:58:32.685 --> 00:58:34.875 Except that's the point is that you need to be 00:58:34.875 --> 00:58:36.795 aiming at something that other people can't see. 00:58:37.155 --> 00:58:39.975 Now, I, without at the risk of, I say 00:58:39.975 --> 00:58:41.415 this, obviously at the risk of sounding, 00:58:41.415 --> 00:58:42.345 Hey, I'm a genius. 00:58:44.425 --> 00:58:46.335 But what I mean is the flip side of 00:58:46.335 --> 00:58:47.205 that is madness. 00:58:47.205 --> 00:58:47.535 Right? 00:58:47.565 --> 00:58:49.605 Because you could also say madness 00:58:49.605 --> 00:58:50.415 hits a target. 00:58:50.415 --> 00:58:51.285 No one else can see. 00:58:51.285 --> 00:58:53.385 Well, yeah, because if there's no target, 00:58:53.445 --> 00:58:54.585 why the hell are you aiming at it? 00:58:54.585 --> 00:58:55.035 That's nothing. 00:58:55.155 --> 00:58:56.295 What if there's nothing there? 00:58:56.595 --> 00:58:59.055 And that's a problem, but, but that's exactly 00:58:59.055 --> 00:59:02.505 the line that I live in on a daily basis is I 00:59:02.525 --> 00:59:05.385 I'm slightly ahead of the curve constantly. 00:59:05.625 --> 00:59:07.885 Which means that if I'm right, then that's 00:59:07.885 --> 00:59:10.365 an phenomenal success, but if I'm wrong, then 00:59:10.365 --> 00:59:11.175 I'm just some idiot. 00:59:11.175 --> 00:59:12.345 Who's doing something that no 00:59:12.345 --> 00:59:13.215 one else is doing. 00:59:13.515 --> 00:59:15.735 So all I've got to do is just keep on the 00:59:15.735 --> 00:59:17.325 right side of that line. 00:59:17.685 --> 00:59:18.885 And a, and I'll be fine. 00:59:19.275 --> 00:59:22.125 So in weather now, if I'm a little bit. 00:59:22.835 --> 00:59:23.645 That's okay. 00:59:23.645 --> 00:59:25.895 So long as I can convince the right people to 00:59:25.895 --> 00:59:28.805 back me, I'll align things up correctly. 00:59:29.225 --> 00:59:31.985 But when you're ahead of the curve like that, 00:59:32.375 --> 00:59:36.965 the, the ability to articulate and define 00:59:36.965 --> 00:59:40.595 the vocabulary, uh, explain, um, motivate 00:59:40.595 --> 00:59:43.325 and convince people to join you on your journey. 00:59:43.655 --> 00:59:47.435 Um, understand how to communicate to, to a 00:59:47.465 --> 00:59:50.465 technical audience, a commercial audience, a 00:59:50.465 --> 00:59:53.855 financial audience, and kind of sit in the middle 00:59:53.855 --> 00:59:54.665 of all those things. 00:59:54.965 --> 00:59:57.575 That's where the value add lies. 00:59:57.965 --> 01:00:00.995 Um, so, or if you wish the genius slash 01:00:00.995 --> 01:00:02.975 madness coin, depending on how you flip it. 01:00:03.335 --> 01:00:05.885 So, so that's where I constantly live. 01:00:05.915 --> 01:00:08.135 It's um, that's, that's how I invent. 01:00:08.495 --> 01:00:12.905 So if I, if I look at, for example, um, 01:00:13.964 --> 01:00:15.495 People sometimes ask me, you know, how do 01:00:15.495 --> 01:00:16.575 you come up with ideas? 01:00:16.814 --> 01:00:19.814 Well, it's easy to come up with ideas because 01:00:19.814 --> 01:00:22.334 fun for me, because fundamentally things out 01:00:22.515 --> 01:00:23.865 there are often broken. 01:00:24.404 --> 01:00:26.145 Um, I'll give you a ridiculously 01:00:26.145 --> 01:00:28.245 simple example that I never actioned. 01:00:28.725 --> 01:00:31.004 Uh, for example, I'll go into, I don't know. 01:00:31.004 --> 01:00:33.134 I go into a restaurant and I'll pick up 01:00:33.134 --> 01:00:33.854 a salt shaker. 01:00:33.854 --> 01:00:36.495 That's clearly full of salt and I shake 01:00:36.495 --> 01:00:38.294 it and nothing comes out and I look at it 01:00:38.294 --> 01:00:39.495 again and I shake it and nothing comes up. 01:00:39.495 --> 01:00:40.245 Then I on screw it. 01:00:40.245 --> 01:00:42.794 And I realized that because of condensation, 01:00:42.794 --> 01:00:44.325 a bunch of salt, we've all seen this in our 01:00:44.325 --> 01:00:46.185 lives before a bunch of salt is kind of 01:00:46.185 --> 01:00:48.404 coagulated near the top and it won't come out 01:00:48.404 --> 01:00:49.935 and you scrape it out and then you shake it. 01:00:49.935 --> 01:00:50.955 And then it works perfectly. 01:00:51.314 --> 01:00:53.415 And I look at that and I go, how annoying 01:00:53.444 --> 01:00:55.334 there's a better way to solve this, but 01:00:55.334 --> 01:00:56.145 I don't care enough. 01:00:56.354 --> 01:00:58.484 So I put the salt chicken down, I eat my food and 01:00:58.484 --> 01:00:59.714 I carry on with my life. 01:01:00.075 --> 01:01:03.194 But that's a simplistic example of an idea 01:01:03.225 --> 01:01:05.654 because if in the middle of that idea 01:01:06.015 --> 01:01:08.265 or sorry, a simplistic idea, generally. 01:01:08.930 --> 01:01:10.550 Process if in the middle of that 01:01:10.550 --> 01:01:13.520 process, I go, Hmm, I do care about this. 01:01:13.640 --> 01:01:15.980 I want to solve this because I really care 01:01:15.980 --> 01:01:17.270 about soul check again. 01:01:17.270 --> 01:01:18.740 I'm giving a ridiculous example. 01:01:19.040 --> 01:01:21.230 That's where the ideas come in. 01:01:21.230 --> 01:01:24.080 So one example, if you'll permit me to segue. 01:01:24.290 --> 01:01:25.160 Absolutely. 01:01:25.910 --> 01:01:27.110 Nobody going to talk about this? 01:01:27.200 --> 01:01:27.500 Yeah. 01:01:27.510 --> 01:01:29.180 This, this little camera over here. 01:01:29.210 --> 01:01:31.730 So this is called, this is the Zicam eat too. 01:01:32.030 --> 01:01:32.240 Yeah. 01:01:32.300 --> 01:01:34.430 And there are multiple different versions of 01:01:34.730 --> 01:01:36.950 this, but the key thing to remember, forget 01:01:36.950 --> 01:01:38.900 about the lens and forget about the battery. 01:01:38.900 --> 01:01:40.490 In fact, let's pop the battery off. 01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:42.170 In fact, why don't we just pop the 01:01:42.170 --> 01:01:43.250 lens off also? 01:01:43.490 --> 01:01:46.160 So the camera body itself is pretty small. 01:01:46.610 --> 01:01:48.460 You know, it's like, it's essentially a sensor 01:01:48.470 --> 01:01:50.690 of some compute unit in there and then there, and 01:01:50.690 --> 01:01:53.150 then everything else is just the bare minimum. 01:01:53.150 --> 01:01:54.620 It's, it's giant heat sink. 01:01:54.650 --> 01:01:56.900 It's a blob of metal because the chip gets 01:01:56.900 --> 01:01:59.390 quite hot, but that's really all you have. 01:02:00.825 --> 01:02:01.275 Zika. 01:02:01.285 --> 01:02:03.464 Isn't the only company that has a camera in 01:02:03.464 --> 01:02:04.665 this kind of form factor. 01:02:04.995 --> 01:02:08.174 Black magic definitely led the idea of making 01:02:08.174 --> 01:02:10.395 small form factor cinematic cameras, 01:02:10.815 --> 01:02:13.545 but nowadays, even red with the red Komodo 01:02:13.545 --> 01:02:15.435 has a camera in this kind of form factor. 01:02:15.975 --> 01:02:18.464 It's the problem with this is you try to use 01:02:18.464 --> 01:02:21.435 this kind of PR in a real world context, the 01:02:21.435 --> 01:02:22.694 economics are insane. 01:02:22.935 --> 01:02:24.285 I mean, look, there's one button here. 01:02:24.285 --> 01:02:25.365 There's four buttons here. 01:02:25.365 --> 01:02:27.884 And this formal buttons here, you want to change 01:02:27.884 --> 01:02:29.924 the aperture or change the shutter speed. 01:02:30.194 --> 01:02:32.714 Need to click one button twice, another button 01:02:32.714 --> 01:02:34.545 twice, and then the first button again. 01:02:34.755 --> 01:02:37.185 So it's five clicks to make something 01:02:37.185 --> 01:02:39.255 that should really be a click of a dial. 01:02:39.944 --> 01:02:43.245 So I remember getting sent this to evaluate it 01:02:43.245 --> 01:02:46.095 because I was working a lot in, uh, in virtual 01:02:46.095 --> 01:02:48.404 reality and augmented reality, making various 01:02:48.404 --> 01:02:49.275 different projects. 01:02:49.605 --> 01:02:51.525 And these small cameras are quite useful for 01:02:51.525 --> 01:02:53.235 reasons that are boring to explain, but let's 01:02:53.235 --> 01:02:54.225 just assume they were. 01:02:54.705 --> 01:02:56.865 So I remember I was evaluating this, the 01:02:56.865 --> 01:02:58.275 first thing I thought it was, I'm like, there's 01:02:58.275 --> 01:02:59.475 gotta be a better way. 01:02:59.685 --> 01:03:01.815 There's gotta be some kind of a handle that 01:03:01.815 --> 01:03:05.805 we can connect to camera like this and, uh, and 01:03:05.805 --> 01:03:07.935 make it so that you have these dials right 01:03:07.935 --> 01:03:08.775 at your fingertips. 01:03:09.464 --> 01:03:11.205 And I looked around and I thought, Hmm, 01:03:11.415 --> 01:03:12.375 nobody's made one. 01:03:12.884 --> 01:03:15.375 So I thought, well, maybe I'll just make one. 01:03:15.495 --> 01:03:16.365 See if it works. 01:03:17.775 --> 01:03:18.495 I made one. 01:03:18.585 --> 01:03:20.325 I don't know exactly where the first prototype 01:03:20.325 --> 01:03:21.915 is, but it looked a little bit like this. 01:03:22.275 --> 01:03:24.225 Uh, this is actually a retail model. 01:03:24.585 --> 01:03:26.685 Uh, there's a, there's a, there's a metal chassis 01:03:26.895 --> 01:03:28.815 and the metal chassis mounts on the camera. 01:03:29.145 --> 01:03:30.405 And then there's two dials. 01:03:30.465 --> 01:03:33.075 It's hard to tell, but these dials rotate and 01:03:33.105 --> 01:03:34.485 click in words as well. 01:03:34.725 --> 01:03:35.835 And then there's a main record 01:03:35.835 --> 01:03:36.765 start, stop button. 01:03:36.765 --> 01:03:39.675 And then there's a wooden CNC doubter body. 01:03:40.095 --> 01:03:41.895 And there was no real reason to make this in 01:03:41.895 --> 01:03:43.965 wood other than I like the touch of woods. 01:03:43.965 --> 01:03:45.165 So I thought, screw it. 01:03:45.165 --> 01:03:45.945 I'm going to use wood. 01:03:46.365 --> 01:03:48.165 So in the process, I had to learn a lot 01:03:48.165 --> 01:03:51.105 about 3d printing and machining and CAD 01:03:51.105 --> 01:03:53.715 cam design as well as electronics design. 01:03:54.165 --> 01:03:57.705 So, uh, when, when I made this, I made an 01:03:57.705 --> 01:04:00.315 initial prototype and I figured, I didn't think, 01:04:00.345 --> 01:04:01.305 oh, this is a product. 01:04:01.305 --> 01:04:03.105 I thought this is a problem. 01:04:03.345 --> 01:04:04.815 And this is how I would solve it. 01:04:05.445 --> 01:04:07.215 And I showed it off to a couple of people 01:04:07.215 --> 01:04:11.055 in the industry and they all said, give 01:04:11.055 --> 01:04:11.895 me this immediately. 01:04:12.225 --> 01:04:14.265 I want this because this is I can't, 01:04:14.265 --> 01:04:15.825 the camera can't function without it. 01:04:16.815 --> 01:04:18.405 So I thought, okay, fine. 01:04:18.405 --> 01:04:19.155 It's a product. 01:04:19.515 --> 01:04:21.465 Um, made the first batch of a hundred. 01:04:22.290 --> 01:04:25.110 Put up a pre-sale they sold out within two 01:04:25.110 --> 01:04:27.190 hours and I thought, oh, okay, wow. 01:04:27.240 --> 01:04:28.140 Really is a product. 01:04:28.950 --> 01:04:30.510 So then we did a batch of 200. 01:04:30.510 --> 01:04:32.790 Then we did a batch of 300 and slowly 01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:35.760 but surely it becomes essentially the main 01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.330 camera handle for, for the entire Zicam range. 01:04:39.330 --> 01:04:41.190 This, I believe this is all of woods. 01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:42.660 So there's different flavors of wood. 01:04:43.170 --> 01:04:45.750 This has bamboo, uh, there's a 01:04:45.750 --> 01:04:47.790 zebra lying around somewhere, but this 01:04:47.790 --> 01:04:49.020 is, this is multijet. 01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:51.180 So this is 3d printed, but on a much more 01:04:51.180 --> 01:04:53.670 expensive 3d printer has a bit of a texture to it. 01:04:54.120 --> 01:04:57.690 So the idea was that, uh, you could connect 01:04:57.690 --> 01:05:00.120 this thing to the camera using this 01:05:00.120 --> 01:05:01.890 port right there, and then you could program 01:05:01.890 --> 01:05:03.300 it using the USBC. 01:05:03.720 --> 01:05:05.340 And we made it as simple as possible 01:05:05.340 --> 01:05:07.140 because there's a. 01:05:08.025 --> 01:05:11.505 That's an important thing in product design. 01:05:11.865 --> 01:05:13.905 It's not just about identifying the 01:05:13.905 --> 01:05:16.035 problem set and it's not just about having 01:05:16.035 --> 01:05:16.935 a bunch of features. 01:05:16.935 --> 01:05:19.155 It's for me, at least it's knowing 01:05:19.155 --> 01:05:23.205 what features to say no to, because 01:05:23.205 --> 01:05:25.425 it's very easy to. 01:05:25.970 --> 01:05:28.100 To just add crap to things. 01:05:28.580 --> 01:05:31.580 It doesn't matter whether it's a car dashboard or 01:05:31.580 --> 01:05:33.770 whether it's a, whether it's a weapon system. 01:05:34.070 --> 01:05:36.440 The point is you can always add crap onto it. 01:05:36.770 --> 01:05:38.900 What's difficult by, you can always add features 01:05:38.900 --> 01:05:39.770 by adding more crap. 01:05:40.070 --> 01:05:42.080 What's difficult is how do you add features 01:05:42.080 --> 01:05:43.190 by removing crap? 01:05:43.520 --> 01:05:45.710 How do you make things that are streamlined 01:05:45.710 --> 01:05:47.000 and simple to control? 01:05:47.300 --> 01:05:49.190 And I don't mean, oh, let's make 01:05:49.190 --> 01:05:50.960 everything controllable by one button. 01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:52.520 Then if you click the button for two seconds, 01:05:52.530 --> 01:05:53.270 then it does one thing. 01:05:53.270 --> 01:05:54.590 If you click it for three seconds, it does 01:05:54.590 --> 01:05:56.300 another thing, because then you're just 01:05:56.300 --> 01:05:58.700 shooting yourself in the face and things need 01:05:58.700 --> 01:06:00.440 to need to be usable. 01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:02.780 As, as the rule goes, there are multiple 01:06:02.780 --> 01:06:05.540 different quote-unquote rules of thumb in user 01:06:05.540 --> 01:06:06.620 experience design. 01:06:06.890 --> 01:06:08.660 But when you're making something for humans 01:06:08.660 --> 01:06:10.910 to use, they've got to be able to rapidly 01:06:10.910 --> 01:06:11.810 know three things. 01:06:11.810 --> 01:06:13.610 One is where are they? 01:06:13.670 --> 01:06:15.410 And I mean, I don't mean physically located. 01:06:15.410 --> 01:06:17.840 I mean, in, in the product cycle and whether 01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:19.760 it's a menu system or whether it's a particular 01:06:19.760 --> 01:06:22.130 lever selection switch, where are they? 01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:23.900 What are the options and how do they get 01:06:23.900 --> 01:06:24.530 to them at the end? 01:06:24.980 --> 01:06:27.080 If you can, if you can intuitively understand 01:06:27.080 --> 01:06:29.300 all three of those things, then you can 01:06:29.540 --> 01:06:32.570 optimize and design a system to make, to make 01:06:32.600 --> 01:06:34.880 things streamlined while they're being used. 01:06:35.330 --> 01:06:38.000 And I apply that principle to product 01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:40.610 design, to storytelling, to software design, to 01:06:40.610 --> 01:06:42.740 architecture design, and. 01:06:43.570 --> 01:06:45.490 And this was so for me, as I said, this 01:06:45.490 --> 01:06:48.520 whole thing started because Nick got a 01:06:48.550 --> 01:06:50.310 pepper shaker, except it wasn't a pepper shaker. 01:06:50.310 --> 01:06:51.880 It was a camera that didn't work. 01:06:51.880 --> 01:06:54.070 Like I wanted it to, and I thought this is 01:06:54.070 --> 01:06:55.030 a solvable problem. 01:06:55.030 --> 01:06:56.650 But in this particular case, I cared 01:06:56.650 --> 01:06:58.060 about solving the problem enough to 01:06:58.060 --> 01:06:58.960 make a prototype. 01:06:59.500 --> 01:07:02.290 And the market told me the rest, namely, we 01:07:02.290 --> 01:07:03.490 want this thing to exist. 01:07:03.910 --> 01:07:06.580 And, uh, that's, that's how that product 01:07:06.580 --> 01:07:07.390 came into being. 01:07:07.750 --> 01:07:09.550 But the main, the main overall through line 01:07:09.550 --> 01:07:13.180 here is the one about invention and product 01:07:13.180 --> 01:07:16.810 design, namely, uh, invent things that you 01:07:16.870 --> 01:07:18.010 actually care about. 01:07:18.430 --> 01:07:21.100 Even if somebody presented to me, I don't 01:07:21.100 --> 01:07:23.830 know, you know, Hey, look, here's the greatest 01:07:23.830 --> 01:07:27.640 way in which you might be able to change car 01:07:27.640 --> 01:07:29.440 tires more efficiently. 01:07:29.440 --> 01:07:31.150 You'll, there'll be 20% faster than 01:07:31.150 --> 01:07:32.830 changing a car tire with your jacket. 01:07:33.600 --> 01:07:36.420 I would just go, I don't care enough 01:07:36.420 --> 01:07:37.170 about the problem. 01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:41.370 So if from, from my perspective, if, in terms 01:07:41.370 --> 01:07:43.680 of words, to impart to people who are curious 01:07:43.680 --> 01:07:46.080 about solving, cause a lot of people out there 01:07:46.080 --> 01:07:48.000 who are practically oriented, solve problems 01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:50.790 in different ways, if you care enough about 01:07:50.790 --> 01:07:52.800 something for me, when something happens, 01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:56.009 once it's an accident, when a problem happens, 01:07:56.009 --> 01:07:59.100 once it happens more than once, that's not 01:07:59.100 --> 01:08:00.090 just a coincidence. 01:08:00.090 --> 01:08:02.009 That probably means that this is a problem 01:08:02.009 --> 01:08:03.030 that needs to be solved. 01:08:03.570 --> 01:08:05.250 And then it's a question of, so a, 01:08:05.250 --> 01:08:08.130 something happens more than once B I care 01:08:08.130 --> 01:08:09.090 enough to solve it. 01:08:09.150 --> 01:08:11.340 Now, somewhere in there, if you're actually 01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.680 trying to be a good businessman, C would be 01:08:13.890 --> 01:08:17.100 other people also care enough about this because 01:08:17.100 --> 01:08:18.090 it's all well and good. 01:08:18.120 --> 01:08:19.649 If you have all the money in the time in 01:08:19.649 --> 01:08:22.590 the world, you can build a custom product for 01:08:22.590 --> 01:08:23.670 just yourself to use. 01:08:23.670 --> 01:08:25.620 But a lot of people don't have that including me. 01:08:25.950 --> 01:08:28.680 So even though this was a fairly simple product 01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:32.040 to prototype nowadays, between between 3d 01:08:32.040 --> 01:08:34.859 printers, that you can get on your desktop and 01:08:35.250 --> 01:08:37.830 perhaps some 3d printing studios and people 01:08:37.830 --> 01:08:40.050 you can find online to outsource some CAD cam 01:08:40.050 --> 01:08:42.750 design, you can make an initial prototype pretty 01:08:42.750 --> 01:08:44.850 quickly, but making something at scale is 01:08:44.850 --> 01:08:45.630 quite a lot more common. 01:08:46.785 --> 01:08:48.945 It looks like you leaned on your firearms 01:08:48.945 --> 01:08:50.805 background on that design as well. 01:08:50.985 --> 01:08:52.755 Did you copy any pistol grip 01:08:52.755 --> 01:08:53.205 for that one? 01:08:53.535 --> 01:08:56.715 Um, as it happens, no, there was not, not a 01:08:56.715 --> 01:09:01.575 pistol grip, but firearms demonstrate the necessity 01:09:01.575 --> 01:09:07.065 to have a very, very acute, uh, focus on, 01:09:07.145 --> 01:09:08.445 on design efficiency. 01:09:08.805 --> 01:09:11.865 There should be no random bits hanging off your 01:09:11.865 --> 01:09:14.235 firearm that are not necessary when you see 01:09:14.235 --> 01:09:15.915 the guys at the range and then have like six 01:09:15.915 --> 01:09:18.195 different flashlights and infrared pointers 01:09:18.435 --> 01:09:20.115 and all kinds of slings. 01:09:20.595 --> 01:09:23.445 Chances are, they're not actually an operator 01:09:23.715 --> 01:09:25.245 because people who are operators tend 01:09:25.245 --> 01:09:27.075 to have something extremely streamlined. 01:09:27.315 --> 01:09:29.565 If there's no, uh, if there's no 01:09:29.565 --> 01:09:32.265 specific reason for something to be on 01:09:32.265 --> 01:09:34.865 your firearm, a very, very specific reason. 01:09:34.875 --> 01:09:36.465 It shouldn't be there because it's 01:09:36.465 --> 01:09:38.475 just going to snag or cats from break. 01:09:38.835 --> 01:09:43.305 So there are, while we may not have used any 01:09:43.305 --> 01:09:45.735 specific firearm pistol grip in the design of 01:09:45.735 --> 01:09:49.075 this, I would certainly say that the, the 01:09:49.215 --> 01:09:52.155 efficiency of design of the way in which some 01:09:52.155 --> 01:09:54.645 firearms and firearms related products work 01:09:55.005 --> 01:09:57.735 was an influence in, in my approach to 01:09:57.735 --> 01:09:58.815 simplicity of design. 01:09:58.935 --> 01:10:00.345 So I got 01:10:00.345 --> 01:10:04.695 a wonder, riding that knife sedge between. 01:10:06.255 --> 01:10:08.054 Genius and insanity. 01:10:08.684 --> 01:10:11.085 That's gotta be stressful at times. 01:10:11.355 --> 01:10:12.885 I mean, if you care about what other people 01:10:12.885 --> 01:10:15.825 think, I guess, and if you're in the process of 01:10:15.855 --> 01:10:18.705 trying to sell your ideas or sell your concepts, 01:10:18.705 --> 01:10:20.264 there's going to be a certain level of caring. 01:10:20.264 --> 01:10:22.815 What other people think is that stressful 01:10:22.815 --> 01:10:24.045 for you and how do you deal with it? 01:10:25.035 --> 01:10:29.295 Uh, so that's a big, big question in general, 01:10:29.625 --> 01:10:31.485 because there is definitely people who 01:10:31.485 --> 01:10:34.785 I'm friends with, who say, how do you handle 01:10:35.175 --> 01:10:38.835 the rollercoaster ride of not having money 01:10:38.835 --> 01:10:39.795 than having money? 01:10:39.974 --> 01:10:42.405 So, so for example, if you want to play games 01:10:42.405 --> 01:10:47.565 in the startup world, you either have a crap 01:10:47.565 --> 01:10:49.155 ton of money and you don't care, which is 01:10:49.155 --> 01:10:53.115 definitely not the case for me, or you accept 01:10:53.115 --> 01:10:55.335 the fact that you're going to be doing this. 01:10:56.235 --> 01:10:58.605 And what I mean by that is that there will be 01:10:58.605 --> 01:11:03.795 times when, for example, Um, on a given day, 01:11:03.884 --> 01:11:05.684 um, a couple of years ago, I might've said, 01:11:05.684 --> 01:11:06.585 Hey, this is awesome. 01:11:06.585 --> 01:11:08.174 We got Google ventures involved. 01:11:08.205 --> 01:11:10.634 We just closed $1.5 million worth of venture 01:11:10.634 --> 01:11:13.394 capital and to the untrained person or 01:11:13.394 --> 01:11:15.045 inexperienced person, they might go, wow, 01:11:15.045 --> 01:11:16.995 you just made a million and a half dollars. 01:11:17.415 --> 01:11:20.205 Uh, you're done well, no, I didn't make anything. 01:11:20.415 --> 01:11:22.214 The company raised a million and a half 01:11:22.214 --> 01:11:24.705 dollars that million and a half has to be used 01:11:24.974 --> 01:11:27.884 in order to rapidly, try to gain market 01:11:27.884 --> 01:11:29.714 traction, develop the product, pay a bunch 01:11:29.714 --> 01:11:30.855 of salaries for people. 01:11:31.155 --> 01:11:32.565 And guess what happens when you're 01:11:32.565 --> 01:11:33.795 the CEO of a company? 01:11:34.094 --> 01:11:35.955 How much of a salary do you draw? 01:11:36.134 --> 01:11:38.955 The answer is not that much because yeah, sure. 01:11:38.955 --> 01:11:42.254 You can draw a little bit, but not only is 01:11:42.254 --> 01:11:44.655 it a, is it something that's, that's a little 01:11:44.655 --> 01:11:48.105 bit tough to justify because if you're trying 01:11:48.105 --> 01:11:50.025 to make your company succeed and you've got a 01:11:50.025 --> 01:11:52.485 small amount of money to do it with putting money 01:11:52.485 --> 01:11:54.945 in your pocket, isn't necessarily going to help 01:11:54.945 --> 01:11:56.054 your company succeed. 01:11:56.295 --> 01:11:58.335 Of course you need to be able to survive, 01:11:58.665 --> 01:11:59.924 but in addition to you. 01:12:00.630 --> 01:12:02.730 To you as a, as an ethical individual, 01:12:02.730 --> 01:12:03.990 finding it difficult to do that. 01:12:03.990 --> 01:12:05.639 It's also frowned upon to do that. 01:12:05.639 --> 01:12:08.009 If you, if you line your own pockets and 01:12:08.009 --> 01:12:10.349 the company tanks investors are going to 01:12:10.349 --> 01:12:12.900 look down on you and go, buddy, that's not 01:12:12.900 --> 01:12:14.910 really how this supposed to be done, you're you, 01:12:14.910 --> 01:12:17.460 or be less likely to pull investment again. 01:12:17.759 --> 01:12:19.580 So what I'm trying to say is if you, if you 01:12:19.589 --> 01:12:21.750 want to play in this space, you've got to be 01:12:21.750 --> 01:12:25.349 prepared for the fact that, um, you know, you, 01:12:25.349 --> 01:12:30.030 your, your personal net worth is kind of a yo-yo. 01:12:30.299 --> 01:12:32.639 So on paper, you might be worth a lot of money 01:12:32.639 --> 01:12:34.799 because the stock you have is very valuable, 01:12:34.799 --> 01:12:37.320 but you can't sell that stock until there's an 01:12:37.320 --> 01:12:40.469 acquisition event or, or an IPO or somebody 01:12:40.469 --> 01:12:42.509 else wants to become involved in some way. 01:12:42.900 --> 01:12:46.320 So the first and foremost, the most 01:12:46.320 --> 01:12:48.929 important thing from a stress perspective 01:12:49.019 --> 01:12:53.070 is to, to, to be able to uncouple, in my 01:12:53.070 --> 01:12:56.460 opinion, your stress from your financial net. 01:12:57.599 --> 01:13:01.169 Now that is a very easy thing to say, but a 01:13:01.169 --> 01:13:02.519 much harder thing to do. 01:13:03.059 --> 01:13:06.690 And it's certainly a lot harder to do if 01:13:06.690 --> 01:13:07.950 you have dependence. 01:13:08.400 --> 01:13:11.129 So for example, if you have a wife and two kids 01:13:11.129 --> 01:13:13.080 and you've got to put a roof over everybody's 01:13:13.080 --> 01:13:14.879 heads and you've got to pay for all their food 01:13:14.879 --> 01:13:16.110 and you're concerned about what's going to 01:13:16.110 --> 01:13:18.089 happen, and what if you get injured, who's going 01:13:18.089 --> 01:13:20.070 to pay for medical, et cetera, et cetera. 01:13:20.610 --> 01:13:23.040 These are all real stressors that people 01:13:23.040 --> 01:13:24.540 deal with in various different ways. 01:13:24.780 --> 01:13:27.809 So there's a reason why they say that start-up 01:13:27.839 --> 01:13:30.269 is a young man's game, a tech startups, 01:13:30.269 --> 01:13:32.610 at least that young doesn't necessarily 01:13:32.610 --> 01:13:33.660 mean young in age. 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:36.509 It means, I mean, I was born in 74, so. 01:13:37.105 --> 01:13:37.555 What does that? 01:13:37.644 --> 01:13:39.235 47 48. 01:13:39.265 --> 01:13:40.045 I don't even know anymore. 01:13:40.105 --> 01:13:41.635 I stopped counting at 40. 01:13:41.635 --> 01:13:44.155 I just figured 40 I'm older than 40. 01:13:44.575 --> 01:13:48.625 So, so the, uh, the, what they mean is not 01:13:48.625 --> 01:13:49.585 necessarily young in age. 01:13:49.585 --> 01:13:51.955 They mean young and attitude because when 01:13:51.955 --> 01:13:53.965 you're traditionally, when you're in your 01:13:53.965 --> 01:13:56.065 mid twenties, you're, you're more carefree. 01:13:56.394 --> 01:13:58.315 You don't, you know, you go skiing and you 01:13:58.315 --> 01:13:59.184 don't go, oh shit. 01:13:59.184 --> 01:14:01.765 If I turn left here too aggressively, I 01:14:01.765 --> 01:14:02.575 could hit the rock. 01:14:02.575 --> 01:14:03.775 I could blow out my knee. 01:14:03.775 --> 01:14:04.525 I could do this. 01:14:04.644 --> 01:14:06.144 You just go, you just do it. 01:14:06.355 --> 01:14:09.205 And most of the time, the just do it bit is 01:14:09.205 --> 01:14:10.345 what gets you through it? 01:14:10.705 --> 01:14:12.715 Because if you sit and hesitate, 01:14:12.985 --> 01:14:13.675 well, guess what? 01:14:13.675 --> 01:14:14.845 You won't make that turn. 01:14:14.845 --> 01:14:16.495 I'm talking about skiing specifically, but it 01:14:16.495 --> 01:14:18.925 applies to any, any risk taking activity. 01:14:19.375 --> 01:14:21.925 And it's a little bit similar again, when 01:14:21.925 --> 01:14:24.235 you're in your twenties, you're trying to do 01:14:24.235 --> 01:14:25.315 business decisions. 01:14:25.615 --> 01:14:26.785 You might go, Hmm. 01:14:27.265 --> 01:14:30.355 Uh, wait, I've got to gamble my entire net 01:14:30.355 --> 01:14:31.405 worth on this idea. 01:14:31.675 --> 01:14:34.675 And if I screw up, I'm screwed and you 01:14:34.675 --> 01:14:35.934 might go fuck it. 01:14:35.934 --> 01:14:38.245 Let's do it because I can always get another job. 01:14:38.875 --> 01:14:40.525 But you make yourself older. 01:14:40.555 --> 01:14:43.555 You add a wife and kids and mortgage 01:14:43.585 --> 01:14:46.735 payments is difficult to make those kinds of 01:14:46.735 --> 01:14:47.725 risk-taking decisions. 01:14:47.725 --> 01:14:48.385 Same way. 01:14:48.745 --> 01:14:51.475 As oftentimes, as you get older, you start 01:14:51.475 --> 01:14:53.425 questioning your own physical abilities, 01:14:53.605 --> 01:14:55.795 go back to the skiing analogy and you go, Hmm. 01:14:56.125 --> 01:14:57.475 I better be careful because you know, my 01:14:57.475 --> 01:14:59.335 back and my knees and my hips, I might not 01:14:59.335 --> 01:15:00.144 be able to do that. 01:15:00.144 --> 01:15:01.325 So I've. 01:15:02.895 --> 01:15:05.295 Lucky in this, I mean, either lucky or stupid, 01:15:05.295 --> 01:15:07.515 or going back to the whole genius and madness 01:15:07.515 --> 01:15:09.135 thing that we've been talking about, where 01:15:09.645 --> 01:15:12.165 I'm still willing to take significant 01:15:12.165 --> 01:15:13.245 amounts of risks. 01:15:13.635 --> 01:15:17.595 Now, while I have a very happy, long 01:15:17.595 --> 01:15:20.955 relationship, which is not, it's not a, it's 01:15:20.955 --> 01:15:23.325 not officially labeled under the standards of, 01:15:23.355 --> 01:15:25.875 of a marriage because we we'd never been married, 01:15:26.205 --> 01:15:28.185 but for all intents and purposes, you know, we've 01:15:28.185 --> 01:15:31.635 lived together for better part of 16, 17 years now. 01:15:33.100 --> 01:15:37.210 The while there's obviously a level 01:15:37.210 --> 01:15:38.890 of, of, of respect. 01:15:38.920 --> 01:15:41.590 And shall we say responsibility that's 01:15:41.980 --> 01:15:43.960 mutual in that equation? 01:15:44.230 --> 01:15:45.340 There are no kids. 01:15:45.580 --> 01:15:49.420 So perhaps that allows me to think about things 01:15:49.420 --> 01:15:51.720 in a slightly different way, but frankly, I 01:15:51.730 --> 01:15:52.630 don't think it's that. 01:15:52.660 --> 01:15:54.370 I don't think it's as simple as that one thing. 01:15:54.370 --> 01:15:55.960 I think it's a mental attitude. 01:15:56.290 --> 01:15:58.750 I think it's just deciding that. 01:15:59.080 --> 01:16:01.750 I want to trying to think about it. 01:16:02.650 --> 01:16:05.080 Parts of the way in which I live my life 01:16:05.110 --> 01:16:09.340 is to stay, uh, to, to, to hold on to the 01:16:09.340 --> 01:16:11.620 ability to make tea for the, to make these 01:16:11.620 --> 01:16:13.330 creative free choices. 01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:16.980 If I'm not able to make them, I'm, I'm 01:16:16.990 --> 01:16:17.950 not going to be happy. 01:16:17.950 --> 01:16:20.050 And if I'm not happy, I'm not creative. 01:16:20.050 --> 01:16:23.050 So it's like a vicious circle in a sense. 01:16:23.380 --> 01:16:27.820 I force myself to take the leap in order to be 01:16:27.820 --> 01:16:30.550 happy about it, which then helps me succeed 01:16:30.550 --> 01:16:31.480 in making the leap. 01:16:31.930 --> 01:16:33.910 I know it might, it might sound like a little bit 01:16:33.910 --> 01:16:36.580 like mumbo-jumbo, but to, to loop that back to your 01:16:36.580 --> 01:16:39.670 question about how do you handle the stresses? 01:16:40.240 --> 01:16:41.740 Uh, I choose to get. 01:16:43.430 --> 01:16:45.950 Uh, I don't know if that's, I know it's, it's 01:16:45.950 --> 01:16:46.760 easier said than done. 01:16:46.760 --> 01:16:49.340 I mean, if you go to someone who is suffering 01:16:49.340 --> 01:16:51.950 from extreme anxiety, I don't know something 01:16:51.950 --> 01:16:53.750 simple, like they're really nervous about 01:16:53.750 --> 01:16:56.270 public speaking and you're, they're about 01:16:56.270 --> 01:16:58.460 to go and talk to present a big group of 01:16:58.460 --> 01:16:59.900 people who are their peers and they're 01:16:59.900 --> 01:17:00.710 shitting themselves. 01:17:00.710 --> 01:17:02.300 Because even though they've rehearsed 01:17:02.300 --> 01:17:04.760 absolutely everything, they know their material, 01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:06.650 they're still nervous because you know what, 01:17:06.650 --> 01:17:08.270 if it doesn't work, what if the suffering from 01:17:08.270 --> 01:17:11.660 imposter syndrome, I'm not suggesting that these 01:17:11.660 --> 01:17:14.820 are things that people shouldn't feel that 01:17:14.820 --> 01:17:15.950 it's complete natural. 01:17:16.100 --> 01:17:18.410 Having the butterflies being nervous when 01:17:18.410 --> 01:17:20.420 you're being tested, when there's a magnifying 01:17:20.420 --> 01:17:22.280 glass in front of you and you have to perform, 01:17:22.610 --> 01:17:23.750 everybody's nervous. 01:17:23.980 --> 01:17:25.640 Anybody who doesn't tell you who tells you that 01:17:25.640 --> 01:17:26.360 they're not nervous. 01:17:26.360 --> 01:17:26.990 They don't care. 01:17:27.290 --> 01:17:28.460 They're they're lying. 01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:31.220 I don't care if you're LeBron, James, uh, 01:17:31.280 --> 01:17:33.680 or, or anybody else, professional race, car 01:17:33.680 --> 01:17:35.480 driver, professional athlete, very 01:17:35.480 --> 01:17:36.680 experienced politician. 01:17:36.980 --> 01:17:38.990 Everybody's always nervous when they're 01:17:38.990 --> 01:17:39.980 being examined. 01:17:40.370 --> 01:17:43.190 The question is, can you harness that energy 01:17:43.430 --> 01:17:45.860 and just go, okay, I'm going to take this and 01:17:45.860 --> 01:17:48.320 I'm going to work with it and use it, use that, 01:17:48.320 --> 01:17:51.260 use that anger and use that adrenaline to focus. 01:17:51.260 --> 01:17:54.200 You have to learn to enjoy it because if, 01:17:54.650 --> 01:17:58.010 if you are nervous about it and you're 01:17:58.010 --> 01:18:00.740 scared of it, it's just going to make it worse. 01:18:02.910 --> 01:18:05.300 This is a, this is a slight aside to, to 01:18:05.350 --> 01:18:07.800 a story which, which I know you didn't ask 01:18:07.800 --> 01:18:09.420 about, but I'll, but I'll tell you anyway, cause 01:18:09.420 --> 01:18:10.530 I think it pertains. 01:18:10.920 --> 01:18:11.160 Yeah. 01:18:11.190 --> 01:18:13.680 And it's, and it's to do with, um, it's to 01:18:13.680 --> 01:18:16.950 do with my dad, um, and how my dad passed away. 01:18:17.400 --> 01:18:21.870 So I was, um, my dad died of a heart attack and I 01:18:21.870 --> 01:18:25.680 was fortunate because I was, we didn't know what 01:18:25.680 --> 01:18:26.160 was going to happen. 01:18:26.160 --> 01:18:27.840 It was sudden, but although we knew that 01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:29.790 he had a weak heart, so it wasn't at the same 01:18:29.790 --> 01:18:30.510 time as being sudden. 01:18:30.510 --> 01:18:32.130 It also wasn't a total surprise. 01:18:32.670 --> 01:18:34.890 Um, he'd had mild heart attacks before 01:18:34.890 --> 01:18:35.880 and a mild stroke. 01:18:36.269 --> 01:18:38.670 Um, he'd had, he was a diabetic, he had two 01:18:38.670 --> 01:18:41.580 stents installed, so it's not like it came out of 01:18:41.580 --> 01:18:43.470 nowhere and he got hit by a truck, but nonetheless, 01:18:43.470 --> 01:18:44.190 it was a surprise. 01:18:44.670 --> 01:18:46.980 And fortunately for me, I was able to 01:18:47.130 --> 01:18:49.530 spend two weeks with both my parents. 01:18:49.620 --> 01:18:51.269 I was on holiday at the time. 01:18:51.269 --> 01:18:52.950 And this happened at the very last day. 01:18:53.220 --> 01:18:54.600 So we'd had a really great time. 01:18:54.600 --> 01:18:57.330 We'd spend a bunch of time together and, and 01:18:57.380 --> 01:19:00.000 the reason I bring up the story is because. 01:19:00.809 --> 01:19:03.209 Uh, I remember in the weeks and months 01:19:03.209 --> 01:19:07.379 afterwards, um, both my friends and my mother 01:19:07.769 --> 01:19:11.969 would frequently ask me, uh, how do you, how 01:19:11.969 --> 01:19:13.620 are you handling this? 01:19:13.860 --> 01:19:15.929 How are you not freaking out about this? 01:19:16.169 --> 01:19:18.030 How are you not freaking out about, uh, 01:19:18.089 --> 01:19:19.139 about what happened? 01:19:20.190 --> 01:19:21.240 And I said, what do you mean? 01:19:21.629 --> 01:19:25.469 And mum would say that she finds herself, you 01:19:25.469 --> 01:19:27.209 know, waking up in the middle of the night and 01:19:27.209 --> 01:19:29.429 suddenly remembering the last few moments. 01:19:29.790 --> 01:19:32.250 And then she tries to hide it and stop 01:19:32.280 --> 01:19:32.910 thinking about it. 01:19:32.910 --> 01:19:35.190 But she can't and it bubbles up again. 01:19:35.190 --> 01:19:37.259 And then it takes over and she gets completely 01:19:37.259 --> 01:19:38.129 consumed by it. 01:19:38.129 --> 01:19:40.709 And she gets really sad and upset and she can't 01:19:40.709 --> 01:19:41.820 handle normal life. 01:19:42.509 --> 01:19:44.400 And I said, and I said, that's interesting 01:19:44.400 --> 01:19:46.740 mum, because the thing I think you're doing 01:19:46.740 --> 01:19:49.019 wrong, or at least wrong is the wrong word. 01:19:49.259 --> 01:19:50.610 I think, I think you're doing different, which 01:19:50.610 --> 01:19:53.639 is a key thing is you're trying to not feel it. 01:19:55.110 --> 01:19:56.160 And she said, what do you mean? 01:19:56.160 --> 01:19:58.019 And I said, the story you just told me, you 01:19:58.019 --> 01:20:00.540 said that you start thinking about it and 01:20:00.540 --> 01:20:03.059 then you try and force yourself to stop. 01:20:03.839 --> 01:20:06.030 And I said that she, she goes, what do you mean? 01:20:06.099 --> 01:20:07.019 I said, don't do that. 01:20:07.559 --> 01:20:10.830 Just think about it fully, every detail. 01:20:11.610 --> 01:20:13.950 And, and she says, I don't understand, 01:20:14.009 --> 01:20:15.000 but that's horrible. 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:15.730 And I said, no, no, no, no. 01:20:15.780 --> 01:20:16.769 It's not think about it. 01:20:17.219 --> 01:20:19.410 If, if I, cause what happened to me is 01:20:19.469 --> 01:20:20.700 of course I would think about it. 01:20:20.700 --> 01:20:21.690 I was there when it happened. 01:20:21.690 --> 01:20:24.330 I gave him CPR, um, waiting for the 01:20:24.330 --> 01:20:26.160 paramedics to arrive and I was unable to 01:20:26.160 --> 01:20:27.000 restart his heart. 01:20:27.690 --> 01:20:32.115 Um, When I start thinking about it, I, 01:20:32.265 --> 01:20:34.395 I D I do the opposite of trying to stop. 01:20:34.395 --> 01:20:36.765 I think about every detail, I think about 01:20:37.035 --> 01:20:39.835 the noise and the rasping of the breathing, the, 01:20:39.835 --> 01:20:42.195 the rhythm of the, of the chest compressions, 01:20:42.465 --> 01:20:44.865 the cracking of the ribs, as you'll hear 01:20:44.865 --> 01:20:46.605 under the pressure of the chest compression. 01:20:47.115 --> 01:20:48.705 And the reason I think about it is 01:20:48.705 --> 01:20:51.165 because then it's mine and I control it. 01:20:51.825 --> 01:20:55.815 Whereas what mum was doing is she was, she 01:20:55.815 --> 01:20:57.615 was trying to hide it, which meant that it 01:20:57.615 --> 01:20:59.865 controlled her because it would constantly 01:20:59.865 --> 01:21:00.525 keep coming up. 01:21:00.915 --> 01:21:02.715 And I, and I bring that up as a story, because 01:21:02.715 --> 01:21:05.175 I think it's, it's similar to how you end 01:21:05.175 --> 01:21:09.495 up handling stress, where when stress can easily 01:21:09.495 --> 01:21:11.895 be overwhelming and it can easily control every 01:21:11.895 --> 01:21:14.295 aspect of what you're doing, whether it's, 01:21:14.505 --> 01:21:16.515 whether it's lack of confidence or anxiety, 01:21:16.515 --> 01:21:19.245 or many other aspects of, of nerves when you're, 01:21:19.395 --> 01:21:21.225 when you're putting yourself into emotional 01:21:21.225 --> 01:21:22.065 roller coasters. 01:21:22.725 --> 01:21:26.985 And if you try to push it away, ultimately, unless 01:21:26.985 --> 01:21:29.115 you're, unless you're some kind of sociopath, 01:21:29.145 --> 01:21:32.025 you, you will fail because you can't hide 01:21:32.055 --> 01:21:33.825 these things, they're stronger than you. 01:21:34.155 --> 01:21:38.055 So instead, I think you have to just accept it. 01:21:38.145 --> 01:21:40.005 And if anything, you have to run towards 01:21:40.005 --> 01:21:42.615 it, because if you run towards it, then 01:21:42.615 --> 01:21:43.725 you're in control of it. 01:21:43.725 --> 01:21:45.735 And then ultimately that's the way you 01:21:45.735 --> 01:21:46.275 get through it. 01:21:46.485 --> 01:21:48.165 Sorry, this went a little bit serious, 01:21:48.195 --> 01:21:49.445 perhaps more serious than 01:21:50.715 --> 01:21:53.325 I, I quite like that, honestly, 01:21:53.385 --> 01:21:54.915 it's funny because. 01:21:56.970 --> 01:21:59.220 That attitude towards stress. 01:21:59.490 --> 01:22:01.590 I've never actually thought of that 01:22:01.590 --> 01:22:02.370 correlation. 01:22:02.370 --> 01:22:04.770 When my kids are afraid of something, I sit 01:22:04.770 --> 01:22:07.830 them down and I say, are you afraid of it? 01:22:08.010 --> 01:22:09.060 Or are you excited? 01:22:09.630 --> 01:22:10.830 And they say, well, what do you mean? 01:22:10.950 --> 01:22:13.560 And I do my best to help them reframe whatever 01:22:13.560 --> 01:22:15.240 that nervous energy is or whatever that 01:22:15.240 --> 01:22:17.730 fear is into something that's positive. 01:22:18.120 --> 01:22:20.100 It's positive because it's exciting. 01:22:20.100 --> 01:22:22.050 You're doing something you haven't done before. 01:22:22.200 --> 01:22:24.510 Not I'm afraid because I'm doing something I 01:22:24.510 --> 01:22:27.720 haven't done before, but you take the exact same 01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:29.460 approach with stress. 01:22:29.460 --> 01:22:32.970 You're essentially reframing what, what 01:22:32.970 --> 01:22:35.460 you're feeling into something that's more 01:22:35.460 --> 01:22:37.620 positive and something that you have control 01:22:37.620 --> 01:22:37.860 over. 01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:39.780 Yeah, a hundred percent. 01:22:39.960 --> 01:22:42.360 And in many instances, as I think we both 01:22:42.389 --> 01:22:44.940 know the most important thing is the first step. 01:22:45.269 --> 01:22:48.360 Because once you, once you get out onto that 01:22:48.360 --> 01:22:50.610 stage, once you start the pitch meeting, 01:22:50.610 --> 01:22:52.559 once you start the phone call, whatever it 01:22:52.559 --> 01:22:55.830 might be at that point, you can't back out. 01:22:55.889 --> 01:22:57.830 I mean, obviously you still can, but, but 01:22:57.840 --> 01:22:59.250 the balls are rolling. 01:22:59.519 --> 01:23:02.040 So, so the idea is that so long as you 01:23:02.040 --> 01:23:04.740 get the reframing, it's a mental, the whole 01:23:04.740 --> 01:23:05.910 thing is a mental game. 01:23:05.969 --> 01:23:06.960 Stress always is. 01:23:07.290 --> 01:23:08.730 And it's a game you play with yourself 01:23:08.759 --> 01:23:11.280 to see if you can make that first step. 01:23:11.700 --> 01:23:13.320 And once you do that, then you're okay. 01:23:13.320 --> 01:23:14.910 And obviously the more times you do it, the 01:23:14.910 --> 01:23:16.290 easier it ends up being. 01:23:16.590 --> 01:23:19.710 And yes, of course, a past history is 01:23:19.710 --> 01:23:20.910 extremely helpful. 01:23:20.910 --> 01:23:24.660 For example, it's much easier that the 15th 01:23:24.690 --> 01:23:26.730 pitch to investors is a hell of a lot easier 01:23:26.730 --> 01:23:27.750 than the first one. 01:23:28.139 --> 01:23:30.960 And once you've, once you've run out of 01:23:30.960 --> 01:23:34.080 money once before and bounced back to do 01:23:34.080 --> 01:23:35.280 something else it's much. 01:23:35.340 --> 01:23:38.250 If you feel less worried about running out of 01:23:38.250 --> 01:23:40.320 money again, because you go, Hey, you know what, 01:23:40.740 --> 01:23:42.360 uh, easy come easy, go. 01:23:42.389 --> 01:23:45.030 I'll figure out the I'll figure out a solution, 01:23:45.450 --> 01:23:48.389 but this is not, this is not a path for 01:23:48.389 --> 01:23:49.889 everybody there are. 01:23:49.920 --> 01:23:51.840 And I, and I should, I should stress 01:23:52.710 --> 01:23:53.610 forgiving the pun. 01:23:53.849 --> 01:23:54.990 I should stress that. 01:23:54.990 --> 01:23:58.740 Uh, I, in no way, look down on people who. 01:23:59.655 --> 01:24:02.345 Who decide that this is not for them, that 01:24:02.345 --> 01:24:04.785 they would rather have the safe job, 01:24:05.025 --> 01:24:06.855 the nine to five that guarantees them a 01:24:06.855 --> 01:24:07.965 certain amount of income. 01:24:08.355 --> 01:24:10.125 And then they have their weekends that 01:24:10.125 --> 01:24:12.675 are completely carefree to spend time with 01:24:12.675 --> 01:24:13.485 their families. 01:24:13.875 --> 01:24:17.385 In fact, while my opinion towards that kind of 01:24:17.385 --> 01:24:19.155 life is actually kind of funny because it's 01:24:19.155 --> 01:24:21.405 very conflicted because on the one hand I looked 01:24:21.405 --> 01:24:23.445 down on it, cause I go, oh, how boring? 01:24:23.895 --> 01:24:25.755 But on the other hand, I'm also jealous of it 01:24:26.115 --> 01:24:27.825 because I can't do that. 01:24:28.695 --> 01:24:31.575 My work has never been nine to five, 01:24:31.785 --> 01:24:32.385 which guess what? 01:24:32.385 --> 01:24:32.955 That means. 01:24:33.075 --> 01:24:35.175 That means there's no distance or no, no 01:24:35.175 --> 01:24:38.445 separation between work and non-work right. 01:24:38.445 --> 01:24:41.115 Which means that if I'm the last thing I think 01:24:41.115 --> 01:24:44.355 about most times before I go to bed is the 01:24:44.355 --> 01:24:46.245 particular project that I've been working on, the 01:24:46.245 --> 01:24:47.925 problem that I'm trying to solve and what I'll 01:24:47.925 --> 01:24:49.095 be solving in the future. 01:24:49.515 --> 01:24:51.615 And the same thing I think about when 01:24:51.615 --> 01:24:53.715 I'm on weekends or when I'm on holidays, 01:24:53.745 --> 01:24:54.795 I can't switch off. 01:24:55.095 --> 01:24:55.275 Yeah. 01:24:55.305 --> 01:24:58.035 So that's what I mean by I'm jealous of the 01:24:58.035 --> 01:25:01.275 ability of people who have that attitude of, 01:25:01.305 --> 01:25:04.035 Hey, it's just nine to five and hard separation 01:25:04.035 --> 01:25:04.965 between work and play. 01:25:05.235 --> 01:25:07.335 I'm jealous of their ability to switch off. 01:25:07.395 --> 01:25:08.895 But at the same time, I also kind of 01:25:08.895 --> 01:25:09.615 looked down on it. 01:25:09.615 --> 01:25:11.745 Cause I think, uh, you're just taking 01:25:11.745 --> 01:25:12.345 the easy road. 01:25:12.855 --> 01:25:16.155 So, so it's a, it's a funny, funny 01:25:16.155 --> 01:25:16.785 approach to things. 01:25:17.790 --> 01:25:19.200 I'm trying to, I'm trying to be as, as 01:25:19.200 --> 01:25:19.950 open as possible. 01:25:19.950 --> 01:25:20.700 I hope I agree. 01:25:22.650 --> 01:25:23.160 Okay, cool. 01:25:23.160 --> 01:25:23.370 Yeah, 01:25:23.730 --> 01:25:24.540 no, absolutely. 01:25:24.540 --> 01:25:25.590 That's exactly what I want. 01:25:25.590 --> 01:25:29.010 I mean, when I, sometimes I bemoan the fact that 01:25:29.040 --> 01:25:30.690 the last thing I think about is the first thing 01:25:30.690 --> 01:25:33.570 I think about and that there is no actual time 01:25:33.570 --> 01:25:36.780 off from work, if you are entrepreneurial 01:25:36.780 --> 01:25:38.700 minded, because you're always thinking about 01:25:38.700 --> 01:25:42.240 the next thing and what you could do with what 01:25:42.240 --> 01:25:43.260 you currently have. 01:25:44.100 --> 01:25:49.080 And I'll look at friends who, um, you know, I 01:25:49.770 --> 01:25:51.240 good friend of mine, he's a firefighter. 01:25:51.270 --> 01:25:52.770 And I look, and I say, man, you know, 01:25:52.770 --> 01:25:54.720 four on four off that ain't too bad. 01:25:54.720 --> 01:25:56.910 I could probably, I could probably run 01:25:56.910 --> 01:25:59.070 a business on the side, on my four off. 01:25:59.070 --> 01:26:02.190 And my wife says, yeah, but you'd hate 01:26:02.190 --> 01:26:03.660 those four on you. 01:26:03.660 --> 01:26:06.300 Wouldn't fit in that mold on that four on when 01:26:06.300 --> 01:26:08.190 you're in there, because you'd be constantly 01:26:08.190 --> 01:26:09.930 thinking about new things or trying to 01:26:09.930 --> 01:26:10.920 do things differently. 01:26:10.920 --> 01:26:13.260 And that's not what, that's not what the 01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:16.050 fire fighter group mentality is like, you 01:26:16.050 --> 01:26:16.980 wouldn't fit in there. 01:26:17.100 --> 01:26:20.010 So for sure, you mentioned imposter 01:26:20.010 --> 01:26:22.290 syndrome and that's something that a lot of 01:26:22.290 --> 01:26:24.810 people who are trying to break new ground or 01:26:24.810 --> 01:26:27.510 do something that's sort of revolutionary either 01:26:27.510 --> 01:26:30.600 in general or within their realm will feel. 01:26:31.170 --> 01:26:34.410 Is that something that you have to deal with? 01:26:35.490 --> 01:26:38.850 Often as it happens, I've never had to deal with 01:26:38.850 --> 01:26:44.070 imposter syndrome and I find it hard to, uh, to. 01:26:45.030 --> 01:26:48.510 To kind of understand exactly what people are 01:26:48.510 --> 01:26:50.430 going through, who I have worked with in the 01:26:50.430 --> 01:26:52.620 past, who I feel are quite talented, who tell 01:26:52.620 --> 01:26:53.670 me they suffer from it. 01:26:54.240 --> 01:26:57.540 And I think that's, that comes down to some of the 01:26:57.540 --> 01:27:00.510 reframing of stress that you had talked about. 01:27:00.840 --> 01:27:03.450 I think I just instinctively ended up 01:27:03.480 --> 01:27:06.180 if, if I do feel it, I reframe it so quickly 01:27:06.180 --> 01:27:09.270 that I don't even notice meaning there 01:27:09.270 --> 01:27:12.750 are certainly, there are certainly environments 01:27:12.750 --> 01:27:13.740 that I've been in. 01:27:14.400 --> 01:27:16.980 For example, when I made the documentary 01:27:16.980 --> 01:27:19.200 film, it's the first documentary I've ever 01:27:19.200 --> 01:27:23.160 made and I'm sitting there in a room, uh, 01:27:23.190 --> 01:27:26.340 doing a talk or winning an award, surrounded 01:27:26.340 --> 01:27:28.140 by people who are on their eighth or 01:27:28.140 --> 01:27:29.520 ninth documentary. 01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:33.540 And it's, uh, by, by all accounts, I 01:27:33.540 --> 01:27:35.210 should be going like, who the hell am I? 01:27:35.210 --> 01:27:38.670 I don't really deserve to be here except I'm 01:27:38.670 --> 01:27:41.310 comfortable with the product that I've made 01:27:41.340 --> 01:27:43.830 or, and, or invention and or whatever it is. 01:27:43.830 --> 01:27:46.650 I'm just using one story to turn on for another. 01:27:47.040 --> 01:27:50.520 So from that perspective, I, as I said, I either 01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:53.580 don't feel it or if I do feel it, I reframe 01:27:53.580 --> 01:27:55.980 it so quickly that it doesn't really, it 01:27:55.980 --> 01:27:56.970 doesn't really affect me. 01:27:57.840 --> 01:28:00.900 I mean, there's a, there's a nasty part 01:28:00.990 --> 01:28:04.350 to this that hopefully doesn't happen, but I've 01:28:04.350 --> 01:28:06.750 seen it happen to some people and that's it. 01:28:07.470 --> 01:28:10.349 You need to be very self-aware for this 01:28:10.349 --> 01:28:13.590 stuff, not to come off as sociopathic ego, 01:28:14.370 --> 01:28:16.860 because if you're, if you're on the wrong 01:28:16.860 --> 01:28:19.019 side of that, in other words, if you don't, if 01:28:19.019 --> 01:28:21.840 you take the view that I'm the best thing in 01:28:21.840 --> 01:28:24.300 the world, and I don't listen to criticism, so 01:28:24.300 --> 01:28:26.519 screw you you're either with me or against 01:28:26.519 --> 01:28:28.050 me, that's a problem. 01:28:28.110 --> 01:28:29.700 And the reason that's a problem is number one, 01:28:29.700 --> 01:28:32.250 because you'll never improve because you have 01:28:32.250 --> 01:28:34.410 to be able to take input from other people very 01:28:34.410 --> 01:28:38.370 quickly and pivot as it were building before. 01:28:38.370 --> 01:28:39.540 I know you meant it a slightly different 01:28:39.540 --> 01:28:42.510 way, but I think, I think by definition, 01:28:42.900 --> 01:28:45.000 we're constantly pivoting as people. 01:28:45.000 --> 01:28:46.710 And certainly from a product perspective, 01:28:46.710 --> 01:28:48.269 you constantly have to keep accepting 01:28:48.300 --> 01:28:49.290 tweaks from others. 01:28:50.370 --> 01:28:52.410 But there are definitely people out there who, 01:28:52.769 --> 01:28:59.400 who can mask, uh, deep insecurities with 01:28:59.429 --> 01:29:02.160 copious quantities of arrogance and bluster, 01:29:02.760 --> 01:29:06.360 and sometimes the idea of, oh, it's okay. 01:29:06.360 --> 01:29:10.950 I'll just reframe all my fear and 01:29:10.950 --> 01:29:14.429 nerves and stress and anxiety as confidence. 01:29:15.059 --> 01:29:16.920 It's not really, that's not a reframe. 01:29:17.250 --> 01:29:18.269 That's a false confidence. 01:29:18.269 --> 01:29:18.630 Yeah. 01:29:18.780 --> 01:29:18.929 Yeah. 01:29:18.940 --> 01:29:20.400 What you're really doing is you're just 01:29:20.400 --> 01:29:22.740 hiding it and you're masking it and the 01:29:22.740 --> 01:29:24.900 problem and that that'll trick some people. 01:29:25.110 --> 01:29:27.150 But as the saying goes, you know, you can trick 01:29:27.150 --> 01:29:27.660 some of the people. 01:29:28.410 --> 01:29:29.970 Some of the time, but you contract 01:29:29.970 --> 01:29:30.720 all, how does it go? 01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:33.180 Wait, you can trick all of them all the time. 01:29:33.510 --> 01:29:35.220 Some of them all the time or all of them, some of 01:29:35.220 --> 01:29:37.200 the time you can't track all of them all the time. 01:29:37.470 --> 01:29:40.140 So eventually that facade breaks down. 01:29:40.500 --> 01:29:43.080 So yeah, it's an, it's a, there's a dance in here 01:29:43.080 --> 01:29:45.960 and it's definitely, as I said, the more self-aware 01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:50.280 you are the better, because if you, in my 01:29:50.280 --> 01:29:53.430 case, I, whatever it is that I do, whatever, 01:29:53.460 --> 01:29:55.950 whatever mental games I play with myself to 01:29:55.950 --> 01:29:58.890 be able to handle this stuff, as long as I can 01:29:58.890 --> 01:30:01.680 go to sleep at night comfortable, that I'm 01:30:01.680 --> 01:30:03.630 being honest to myself and the people around 01:30:03.630 --> 01:30:04.980 me, I'm fine with it. 01:30:05.100 --> 01:30:07.230 So, so yeah, I think from the imposter 01:30:07.230 --> 01:30:09.090 syndrome side, certainly something, as I said, 01:30:09.090 --> 01:30:11.400 that I've seen and the people I know 01:30:11.400 --> 01:30:13.830 suffer from and people choose to mask it in 01:30:13.830 --> 01:30:14.790 various different ways. 01:30:14.790 --> 01:30:17.160 But yeah, not something that I feel I've 01:30:17.160 --> 01:30:19.230 always, I'm sorry, just to just the thing. 01:30:19.559 --> 01:30:22.200 I think it's also very important to be honest. 01:30:22.650 --> 01:30:24.900 And it's important to be honest with yourself 01:30:25.670 --> 01:30:26.760 as well as with others. 01:30:26.790 --> 01:30:29.070 And I mean that not just in a, in a personal, 01:30:29.070 --> 01:30:30.900 emotional context, I also mean it in a 01:30:30.900 --> 01:30:32.010 professional context. 01:30:32.400 --> 01:30:35.560 So for instance, 'cause you never know when the 01:30:35.560 --> 01:30:37.540 person who's sitting across from you, whether 01:30:37.540 --> 01:30:39.520 they're a potential collaborator or an 01:30:39.520 --> 01:30:42.970 employee or a potential investor, you never know 01:30:42.970 --> 01:30:45.220 whether they're actually a subject matter expert 01:30:45.220 --> 01:30:46.120 in what you're doing. 01:30:46.720 --> 01:30:50.380 And if you choose to lie, uh, yeah, sure. 01:30:50.380 --> 01:30:52.810 You can get lucky and you can spin something. 01:30:52.990 --> 01:30:54.850 And if someone calls you on it, you, you might 01:30:54.850 --> 01:30:57.340 be quick enough or, or agile enough with your 01:30:57.340 --> 01:31:00.610 wordplay to be able to work around the problem. 01:31:00.910 --> 01:31:02.380 But you do that shit to me. 01:31:02.620 --> 01:31:03.460 I'll remember. 01:31:03.670 --> 01:31:07.030 So when I notice, when people make mistakes, I 01:31:07.030 --> 01:31:09.160 noticed when they define things incorrectly, 01:31:09.160 --> 01:31:11.740 I notice when they gloss over something, 01:31:11.740 --> 01:31:13.510 when I've asked them a difficult question. 01:31:13.930 --> 01:31:16.960 And I assume always when I'm that I'm talking 01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:18.490 to people who notice things the same way 01:31:18.490 --> 01:31:21.850 that I do, which is why, if I don't know 01:31:21.850 --> 01:31:24.010 something, I'll be the first one to admit it. 01:31:24.615 --> 01:31:27.495 'cause, I don't want to give you as a 01:31:27.675 --> 01:31:30.015 quote-unquote adversary, whether it's an adversary 01:31:30.015 --> 01:31:31.725 in a friendly way or in an, or in an aggressive 01:31:31.725 --> 01:31:34.545 way, I don't want to give you the power of 01:31:34.605 --> 01:31:37.185 thinking that you saw me make a mistake. 01:31:37.545 --> 01:31:39.375 And now, you know, that I made a mistake and 01:31:39.375 --> 01:31:40.245 I'm trying to hide it. 01:31:40.455 --> 01:31:42.675 If I catch myself making a mistake, I'll call 01:31:42.675 --> 01:31:43.575 it out right away. 01:31:43.995 --> 01:31:45.825 And the reason I'll do that is because, as I 01:31:45.825 --> 01:31:49.455 said, that that honesty is I think an important 01:31:49.455 --> 01:31:52.065 part of my continuous improvement process, 01:31:52.065 --> 01:31:54.765 but it also, as it happens, deep powers, 01:31:54.765 --> 01:31:56.295 the other person, cause I don't want to give 01:31:56.295 --> 01:31:58.965 him a leg to stand on in terms of going ha ha. 01:31:59.265 --> 01:32:01.485 I caught that guy and now I know that he's lying. 01:32:01.695 --> 01:32:04.155 So anyway, I love it. 01:32:04.455 --> 01:32:04.965 I love it. 01:32:06.855 --> 01:32:10.875 So I remember when he started getting into VR 01:32:10.905 --> 01:32:12.735 and I'm watching this, I'm like, I don't know, 01:32:12.735 --> 01:32:15.015 is VR going to be the wave of the future? 01:32:15.045 --> 01:32:17.865 Is, is this really going to be such a big thing? 01:32:17.865 --> 01:32:21.285 And then you're talking about storytelling 01:32:21.315 --> 01:32:23.775 through virtual reality and saying like, you 01:32:23.775 --> 01:32:25.245 know, it's one thing to have this whole 01:32:25.245 --> 01:32:27.225 virtual environment around us that we can 01:32:27.225 --> 01:32:29.655 all kind of look at, but how do you direct 01:32:29.655 --> 01:32:31.605 somebody's attention through storytelling? 01:32:31.615 --> 01:32:34.395 I'm like, okay, I can, I'm starting to see 01:32:35.175 --> 01:32:37.005 kind of what you're trying to do here. 01:32:37.995 --> 01:32:40.695 And then next thing you know, you've got 01:32:40.875 --> 01:32:42.795 red six, which is. 01:32:45.230 --> 01:32:47.600 Piggybacking on the virtual reality 01:32:47.600 --> 01:32:49.790 background that you have in the filmmaking 01:32:49.790 --> 01:32:51.230 background and the left and right. 01:32:51.230 --> 01:32:52.550 Brain kind of thing. 01:32:52.550 --> 01:32:55.160 And you've got something and you're using it to 01:32:55.160 --> 01:32:56.780 train fighter pilots. 01:32:57.380 --> 01:32:58.700 Can you, can you talk about this 01:32:58.700 --> 01:32:59.180 a little bit? 01:32:59.480 --> 01:33:00.470 Yeah, for sure. 01:33:00.570 --> 01:33:02.870 I can't go into too much detail on the core 01:33:02.870 --> 01:33:04.760 of the technology, but obviously a fair amount 01:33:04.760 --> 01:33:06.769 of it has been, has been written about so we can 01:33:06.769 --> 01:33:08.210 certainly address it. 01:33:08.600 --> 01:33:11.180 So first things first I'd been interested in, 01:33:11.180 --> 01:33:13.519 in, as you mentioned in virtual reality 01:33:13.519 --> 01:33:15.680 and by association augmented reality for 01:33:15.680 --> 01:33:16.670 a number of years. 01:33:17.240 --> 01:33:21.080 And the biggest reason I was interested initially, 01:33:21.380 --> 01:33:23.870 even though the headsets were cumbersome, a bit 01:33:23.870 --> 01:33:26.870 of a bane to wear, and it was complicated to 01:33:26.870 --> 01:33:28.820 get the tech to work correctly, you needed to 01:33:28.820 --> 01:33:30.080 have a powerful computer. 01:33:30.080 --> 01:33:32.030 You couldn't really do it on your mobile phone. 01:33:32.030 --> 01:33:32.570 And so on. 01:33:33.140 --> 01:33:35.930 Uh, the reason I was particularly interested 01:33:36.710 --> 01:33:39.110 was because of the intensity of emotion 01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:42.110 and, uh, let me describe what I mean by that. 01:33:42.440 --> 01:33:47.129 Uh, Uh, it'll sound like a bit, a very base 01:33:47.129 --> 01:33:50.669 comparison, but I think it's apt a long time ago. 01:33:50.940 --> 01:33:53.730 One of the first VR experiences I 01:33:53.730 --> 01:33:55.320 tried, I mean, sure. 01:33:55.320 --> 01:33:57.150 You know, there's the old story of, you know, you, 01:33:57.240 --> 01:33:59.459 you, you feel vertigo cause you look down and 01:33:59.459 --> 01:34:01.440 you're on the edge of a, of a building, but 01:34:01.440 --> 01:34:02.879 you're not actually on the edge of a building 01:34:03.120 --> 01:34:03.929 and that's fine. 01:34:04.200 --> 01:34:06.450 Um, but I'm talking about something else, which 01:34:06.450 --> 01:34:11.129 is that somebody asked me to try some sort of 01:34:11.129 --> 01:34:15.209 a pornography experience in VR and it was very 01:34:15.209 --> 01:34:18.000 simple, meaning nothing wasn't interactive in 01:34:18.000 --> 01:34:18.809 any way whatsoever. 01:34:18.809 --> 01:34:21.660 It was just, just some just, just nudity. 01:34:22.110 --> 01:34:22.589 But I remember. 01:34:23.394 --> 01:34:27.684 As, as I was looking at the video that was 01:34:27.684 --> 01:34:29.905 happening, I remember noticing my hands 01:34:29.905 --> 01:34:32.665 came up and I thought, wow, that's really 01:34:32.665 --> 01:34:35.815 bizarre because I know I'm watching a video. 01:34:36.055 --> 01:34:38.605 I know exactly how the technology works. 01:34:38.605 --> 01:34:41.215 That's tricking my brain into thinking that this 01:34:41.245 --> 01:34:43.585 person is actually right in front of me yet. 01:34:43.585 --> 01:34:46.195 My hands instinctively start to come up anyway. 01:34:46.405 --> 01:34:48.175 I can leave it up to the viewer to think about 01:34:48.175 --> 01:34:51.775 why that's a conversation for another time. 01:34:52.255 --> 01:34:52.705 Anyway. 01:34:52.764 --> 01:34:54.535 So I stopped the thing right away and I take 01:34:54.535 --> 01:34:55.825 the headset off and I go, okay, this is 01:34:55.825 --> 01:34:58.735 really bizarre because if within, we're talking 01:34:58.735 --> 01:35:01.135 about within two seconds, this happened, if within 01:35:01.135 --> 01:35:03.835 two seconds, I can short circuit my brain 01:35:03.894 --> 01:35:06.115 with this technology to think that I'm actually 01:35:06.115 --> 01:35:07.974 somewhere that I'm not to the point that 01:35:07.974 --> 01:35:09.025 my hands will move. 01:35:09.295 --> 01:35:11.785 There's something here, because that means that 01:35:11.785 --> 01:35:14.785 if I'm telling you a story and I want you 01:35:14.785 --> 01:35:18.355 to feel a certain way, whether it's because of, 01:35:18.355 --> 01:35:21.925 I dunno, refugees in a refugee camp or, or some 01:35:21.925 --> 01:35:24.325 sort of a love story or some sort of an action 01:35:24.325 --> 01:35:25.224 movie, it doesn't matter. 01:35:25.495 --> 01:35:25.915 The point is. 01:35:27.089 --> 01:35:29.250 Something about the idea of being able to 01:35:29.549 --> 01:35:31.799 immerse you into an environment, to the 01:35:31.799 --> 01:35:33.960 point that you feel like you're actually there, 01:35:34.200 --> 01:35:36.660 which means you will, you will, because filmmaking 01:35:36.660 --> 01:35:39.509 and storytelling is all about manipulating the 01:35:39.509 --> 01:35:41.309 emotions of the viewer. 01:35:41.460 --> 01:35:43.950 Making you feel as though you are the hero or 01:35:43.950 --> 01:35:45.870 you are in danger, you are saving the world. 01:35:45.870 --> 01:35:46.920 Whatever the case might be. 01:35:47.160 --> 01:35:49.080 It's sometimes not as simple as sometimes it 01:35:49.080 --> 01:35:50.790 could be just a jump scare with zombies 01:35:50.790 --> 01:35:52.500 jumping out of the ground and need to scare you. 01:35:52.830 --> 01:35:54.570 But nonetheless, we're trying to elicit 01:35:54.570 --> 01:35:55.799 emotional responses. 01:35:56.070 --> 01:35:58.440 So I was fascinated by the idea of how 01:35:58.679 --> 01:36:01.589 emotional responses could be manipulated in 01:36:01.650 --> 01:36:02.910 using this technology. 01:36:03.120 --> 01:36:04.410 So I've spent a lot of time trying to 01:36:04.410 --> 01:36:06.660 figure out what does this mean for editing? 01:36:06.690 --> 01:36:08.549 What does this mean for filmmaking? 01:36:08.820 --> 01:36:10.500 What does this mean for interactivity? 01:36:10.860 --> 01:36:14.429 Because as, as obviously, people, either who are 01:36:14.490 --> 01:36:17.490 listening to podcasts or, or watching movies 01:36:17.490 --> 01:36:21.000 nowadays know you have, what's referred to you 01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:24.360 have no agency, you can't control the narrative. 01:36:24.599 --> 01:36:25.710 In other words, somebody listening to this 01:36:25.710 --> 01:36:27.719 podcast can change the next question. 01:36:27.990 --> 01:36:29.910 They can certainly pause it, rewind it 01:36:29.910 --> 01:36:32.009 fast forward it, but they can't change the 01:36:32.009 --> 01:36:33.839 answer that I'm about to give or the questions 01:36:33.839 --> 01:36:34.589 you're going to ask. 01:36:35.009 --> 01:36:37.799 Now, there are certain environments that 01:36:37.799 --> 01:36:38.610 you can do this in. 01:36:38.610 --> 01:36:40.110 And one common one is video games 01:36:40.440 --> 01:36:41.160 in a video game. 01:36:41.160 --> 01:36:43.860 If you're playing, I don't know, call of duty 01:36:43.860 --> 01:36:47.670 or you're playing, um, playing pub G uh, you 01:36:47.700 --> 01:36:50.219 can, or Fortnite, you can move your character 01:36:50.219 --> 01:36:50.759 whichever way you. 01:36:51.450 --> 01:36:53.790 And so can anybody else who's playing 01:36:53.790 --> 01:36:56.219 the game with you at the same time, but 01:36:56.370 --> 01:37:00.179 guess what suffers story, because sure. 01:37:00.179 --> 01:37:01.469 You can make an environment. 01:37:01.710 --> 01:37:04.170 I can have you for the sake of argument, be 01:37:04.170 --> 01:37:06.150 playing, I don't know, let's pick star wars, 01:37:06.150 --> 01:37:07.860 so I can, you can be playing on the death 01:37:07.860 --> 01:37:09.870 star and you're running around doing whatever you 01:37:09.870 --> 01:37:13.650 want, but how can you at the same time have the 01:37:13.650 --> 01:37:16.349 narration happen that happens in the star wars 01:37:16.349 --> 01:37:18.599 movies that we all grew up loving most of us, 01:37:19.019 --> 01:37:21.150 uh, while I'm letting you do whatever you 01:37:21.150 --> 01:37:22.620 want, because if you want to run around and 01:37:22.620 --> 01:37:24.300 blow stuff up, well, guess what, you're 01:37:24.300 --> 01:37:25.410 going to miss the story. 01:37:25.559 --> 01:37:28.679 So I was fascinated by, by the kind of 01:37:28.679 --> 01:37:31.769 conflicting forces of the immersion and 01:37:31.769 --> 01:37:33.630 the, the emotional immersion and what that 01:37:33.630 --> 01:37:37.320 does to my brain, uh, by short-circuiting 01:37:37.320 --> 01:37:38.400 certain aspects of it. 01:37:38.849 --> 01:37:41.940 And then understanding the technology involved 01:37:41.940 --> 01:37:43.769 and the interactivity that was possible. 01:37:44.340 --> 01:37:48.150 And the transition to read six happened, uh, 01:37:48.179 --> 01:37:50.519 roughly around having spent a number of 01:37:50.519 --> 01:37:54.000 years in this space, looking for a challenge 01:37:54.120 --> 01:37:56.519 to build, to solve an interesting problem. 01:37:56.849 --> 01:37:58.170 And the reason why it happened. 01:37:58.950 --> 01:38:01.080 Missed a lot of the pro the technology was 01:38:01.080 --> 01:38:03.780 so young that a lot of the stuff that we were 01:38:03.780 --> 01:38:07.500 doing was as I like to call it a solution in 01:38:07.500 --> 01:38:08.550 search of a problem. 01:38:09.090 --> 01:38:11.190 In other words, we'd be like, Hey, look, 01:38:11.220 --> 01:38:12.180 we can do a headset. 01:38:12.220 --> 01:38:13.470 We can track your hands. 01:38:13.470 --> 01:38:15.690 So look, cause you can track your hands. 01:38:15.690 --> 01:38:17.940 And then the competition would kind of tail 01:38:17.940 --> 01:38:20.310 away there because if you go, well, why 01:38:20.310 --> 01:38:21.090 would you do that? 01:38:21.090 --> 01:38:21.870 You go, well, I don't know, but 01:38:21.870 --> 01:38:22.710 look, isn't it cool. 01:38:23.190 --> 01:38:24.030 You can track your homes. 01:38:24.330 --> 01:38:28.860 So what would happen is, uh, we, it wasn't 01:38:28.890 --> 01:38:30.510 clear because it was so many things that 01:38:30.510 --> 01:38:31.890 we're building and it wasn't just me. 01:38:31.890 --> 01:38:33.540 It was a number of people in the industry who were 01:38:33.540 --> 01:38:35.370 building solutions in search of a problem. 01:38:35.820 --> 01:38:37.560 I just thought, wouldn't it be cool if we found 01:38:37.560 --> 01:38:39.660 a real problem so we can apply all this 01:38:39.660 --> 01:38:42.270 knowledge to, and all this technology to 01:38:42.270 --> 01:38:43.440 solve something real. 01:38:43.890 --> 01:38:46.830 So I got together with, with three 01:38:46.830 --> 01:38:49.710 other guys, um, Glenn Snyder, Adam Amarillo, 01:38:49.710 --> 01:38:52.410 and Dan Robinson, uh, Glenn and Adam 01:38:52.620 --> 01:38:54.540 were very experienced in the VR world. 01:38:54.630 --> 01:38:56.130 They've done a lot of different VR 01:38:56.130 --> 01:38:58.830 solutions and a lot of digital software and 01:38:59.130 --> 01:39:00.330 hardware development. 01:39:00.960 --> 01:39:05.130 While Adam, myself and Glenn were all 01:39:05.130 --> 01:39:06.990 technologists and spent a number of years in 01:39:06.990 --> 01:39:09.960 the VR and AR space on both software, hardware, 01:39:09.960 --> 01:39:12.990 and content then was not a technologist, 01:39:13.020 --> 01:39:16.170 but as a fighter pilot, he had some unique 01:39:16.170 --> 01:39:18.900 understanding of the problem set, specifically 01:39:18.900 --> 01:39:20.910 the danger and the complexity of training 01:39:21.540 --> 01:39:25.320 with other physical aircraft as often. 01:39:26.385 --> 01:39:29.355 People have seen at the very least in Hollywood 01:39:29.385 --> 01:39:30.345 versus of this stuff. 01:39:30.375 --> 01:39:33.135 For example, in Topcon, when in those days they 01:39:33.135 --> 01:39:36.945 had the F fourteens as the good guys, and then I 01:39:36.945 --> 01:39:40.065 believe F fours and fives playing the part of mics. 01:39:40.335 --> 01:39:42.045 And when they're trying to fly against each 01:39:42.045 --> 01:39:44.445 other, yeah, it looks cool filmmaking wise, but 01:39:44.445 --> 01:39:46.605 it's also quite dangerous even though the training 01:39:46.605 --> 01:39:47.985 quality is quite high. 01:39:48.795 --> 01:39:52.755 So the idea was, was it possible to do this 01:39:52.755 --> 01:39:55.695 kind of training using augmented reality? 01:39:55.695 --> 01:39:58.515 So for the sake of argument, if, if it was 01:39:58.515 --> 01:40:01.155 going to be possible, you would need to take 01:40:01.155 --> 01:40:03.675 off in an aircraft as a fighter pilot, and then 01:40:03.675 --> 01:40:05.925 look out the window and see an enemy aircraft 01:40:05.925 --> 01:40:07.935 that wasn't there, that you could maneuver 01:40:07.935 --> 01:40:10.425 against that would be driven by AI in order to 01:40:10.425 --> 01:40:13.335 be a pretend bad guy for you to train against, 01:40:13.635 --> 01:40:15.135 but it would have to be realistic because 01:40:15.465 --> 01:40:16.425 this wasn't a game. 01:40:16.725 --> 01:40:18.795 If this wasn't going to be realistic, if it 01:40:18.795 --> 01:40:20.505 wasn't going to give you so-called positive 01:40:20.505 --> 01:40:24.135 training value, then it would at best create a 01:40:24.135 --> 01:40:25.365 false sense of security. 01:40:25.365 --> 01:40:27.165 And at worst, it would be worse than that. 01:40:27.165 --> 01:40:28.755 It would give you negative training value. 01:40:29.415 --> 01:40:31.575 So the only way this was going to work 01:40:31.905 --> 01:40:34.755 is if it would be sufficiently realistic, 01:40:34.755 --> 01:40:35.405 it's a fairly high. 01:40:36.630 --> 01:40:37.950 So the physics are correct. 01:40:38.309 --> 01:40:40.950 And the so-called, uh, range, aspect and 01:40:40.950 --> 01:40:42.900 angle are correct, so that the pilot can 01:40:42.900 --> 01:40:45.720 judge the position of the enemy aircraft and 01:40:45.720 --> 01:40:47.040 maneuver accordingly. 01:40:47.610 --> 01:40:50.250 And we, we didn't know this was possible. 01:40:50.670 --> 01:40:51.360 Absolutely. 01:40:51.420 --> 01:40:52.889 No, it never been tried before. 01:40:52.889 --> 01:40:55.230 I mean, certainly head up displays of various 01:40:55.230 --> 01:40:58.320 different kinds had existed in certainly 01:40:58.320 --> 01:40:58.889 in the military. 01:40:58.889 --> 01:41:00.840 And in some cases, in some high-end cars, 01:41:00.870 --> 01:41:03.540 they have the ability to project your Speedo 01:41:03.540 --> 01:41:05.519 or some additional information onto your 01:41:05.519 --> 01:41:06.720 dash in front of you. 01:41:07.110 --> 01:41:09.630 But no one had ever tried wide field of 01:41:09.630 --> 01:41:13.559 view, high resolution, full color, low latency 01:41:13.559 --> 01:41:15.480 visuals, essentially we're building a 01:41:15.480 --> 01:41:16.559 video game in the sky. 01:41:17.430 --> 01:41:20.160 And, um, so I was one of the co-founders of the 01:41:20.160 --> 01:41:25.470 business as well as, uh, the CTO for the, I can't 01:41:25.470 --> 01:41:28.139 remember exactly when I transitioned to being 01:41:28.139 --> 01:41:30.690 the chief strategy and science officer, but I 01:41:30.690 --> 01:41:33.090 was CTO for a good two years and a bit of the 01:41:33.090 --> 01:41:36.420 business and the, uh, the, the key task here 01:41:36.420 --> 01:41:38.250 was first and foremost, establish whether this 01:41:38.250 --> 01:41:41.070 is possible and to prove this out in an aircraft. 01:41:41.790 --> 01:41:46.769 But when, when I started to broaden the stack was 01:41:46.769 --> 01:41:48.720 when it became really interesting because 01:41:49.110 --> 01:41:51.360 it wasn't just about solving a key problem 01:41:51.360 --> 01:41:52.019 for the military. 01:41:52.019 --> 01:41:54.450 That was certainly the reason why the company 01:41:54.450 --> 01:41:56.670 got a lot of attention and got an initial and 01:41:56.670 --> 01:41:59.040 then a follow up contract with the us air force. 01:41:59.639 --> 01:42:03.269 But it was also because you see the broader. 01:42:04.050 --> 01:42:06.750 Training ecosystem is obviously not 01:42:06.750 --> 01:42:07.770 just one aircraft. 01:42:07.800 --> 01:42:09.630 There's an aircraft there's tanks, there's 01:42:09.630 --> 01:42:12.180 infantry, there's combined joint force 01:42:12.180 --> 01:42:13.680 multi-domain operations. 01:42:14.400 --> 01:42:17.700 And the idea is that could you build a 01:42:17.700 --> 01:42:20.340 training ecosystem so that any one of these 01:42:20.340 --> 01:42:22.710 people, whatever vehicle they're in or whether 01:42:22.710 --> 01:42:24.810 they're a dismounted or mounted infantry, 01:42:25.200 --> 01:42:28.710 uh, could they see an enemy threat in the same 01:42:28.710 --> 01:42:30.930 place at the same time, even though the enemy 01:42:30.930 --> 01:42:31.920 threat wasn't there. 01:42:32.280 --> 01:42:34.290 So the whole now obviously fancy things 01:42:34.290 --> 01:42:35.850 can be accomplished with screens. 01:42:36.240 --> 01:42:38.760 So lots of you sensor fuse, a bunch of data. 01:42:38.760 --> 01:42:40.200 You look at your screen, you can see 01:42:40.200 --> 01:42:42.000 on your radar, certain things are happening, 01:42:42.330 --> 01:42:43.830 but that's not what we were interested in. 01:42:43.830 --> 01:42:45.660 What we were interested in is what happens at 01:42:45.660 --> 01:42:47.340 close range is what happens when you have to 01:42:47.340 --> 01:42:50.520 look up and look around and engage with an enemy 01:42:50.520 --> 01:42:53.130 that isn't actually physically there because 01:42:53.130 --> 01:42:55.380 the traditional training in traditional synthetic 01:42:55.380 --> 01:42:57.000 training, that's where things break down. 01:42:57.240 --> 01:42:58.560 That's where the simulation ends 01:42:58.560 --> 01:42:59.070 and you just go. 01:42:59.070 --> 01:42:59.250 Yeah. 01:42:59.250 --> 01:42:59.630 Okay. 01:42:59.630 --> 01:42:59.810 Okay. 01:43:00.525 --> 01:43:02.145 If, and when that happens in reality, 01:43:02.145 --> 01:43:03.015 you'll figure it out. 01:43:03.045 --> 01:43:05.835 You know, the problem is if the only time that 01:43:05.835 --> 01:43:07.845 you're seeing a, for the sake of argument, 01:43:07.845 --> 01:43:10.395 Chinese, J 20 is when you actually see a 01:43:10.395 --> 01:43:14.055 Chinese J 20, uh, that's a problem because if 01:43:14.055 --> 01:43:15.915 up until then, the only time you've flown 01:43:15.915 --> 01:43:18.675 against the J 20 is in an actual simulation of 01:43:18.675 --> 01:43:21.465 a simulator, not in your actual physical aircraft. 01:43:21.825 --> 01:43:23.625 And again, I know it started with fighter 01:43:23.625 --> 01:43:24.975 pilots, but it doesn't matter whether you 01:43:24.975 --> 01:43:28.065 replace aircraft with helicopter or with 01:43:28.095 --> 01:43:30.795 Breguet or with armored personnel carrier. 01:43:30.795 --> 01:43:31.845 It's the same problem. 01:43:32.175 --> 01:43:34.365 The problem is how do you train against actual 01:43:34.365 --> 01:43:36.735 physical assets if they're not available 01:43:37.035 --> 01:43:40.695 for you to train against gone are the days of 01:43:40.695 --> 01:43:43.755 the early Warsaw pact when the U S enjoyed 01:43:43.755 --> 01:43:44.895 such military dominance. 01:43:44.895 --> 01:43:48.015 So they could use their older vehicles as a 01:43:48.015 --> 01:43:51.075 SIM physical simulator with the same kind 01:43:51.075 --> 01:43:53.505 of capability as a modern Warsaw pact 01:43:53.505 --> 01:43:56.805 or Chinese vehicle nowadays, the Chinese 01:43:56.805 --> 01:43:59.625 and the Russian forces are so significantly 01:43:59.625 --> 01:44:02.205 advanced that it's impossible to do that. 01:44:02.655 --> 01:44:03.885 You have to commit. 01:44:03.975 --> 01:44:05.565 If you want to do that, if you want to train the 01:44:05.565 --> 01:44:07.335 physical asset against the physical asset, 01:44:07.335 --> 01:44:10.515 you have to commit your most expensive assets 01:44:10.725 --> 01:44:13.845 into playing dummy enemy and that's expensive. 01:44:13.845 --> 01:44:15.075 And also not a good idea. 01:44:16.455 --> 01:44:19.155 Uh, in general, there was a, there was a 01:44:19.155 --> 01:44:21.434 lot of money riding on being able to solve 01:44:21.434 --> 01:44:22.514 this problem correctly. 01:44:22.905 --> 01:44:25.455 So we spent a lot of time proving out that 01:44:25.455 --> 01:44:26.325 this was possible. 01:44:26.715 --> 01:44:29.055 We had an experimental aircraft that we, 01:44:29.085 --> 01:44:32.025 that we did this in, but the key thing, as 01:44:32.025 --> 01:44:33.974 I was mentioning was the transition from 01:44:34.005 --> 01:44:36.705 purely making this a fighter pilot focused 01:44:36.705 --> 01:44:39.495 solution into being a multi-domain solution. 01:44:40.365 --> 01:44:42.825 I came up with, um, with a concept that I named 01:44:42.825 --> 01:44:45.405 carbon carbon stands for combined augmented 01:44:45.405 --> 01:44:47.684 reality battlespace operational network. 01:44:48.014 --> 01:44:50.955 And the idea is that carbon is a, is a 01:44:50.985 --> 01:44:54.315 multi-domain environment where multiple entities 01:44:54.315 --> 01:44:56.415 see the same augmented reality assets at 01:44:56.415 --> 01:44:58.065 the same time and in the same place. 01:44:58.755 --> 01:45:02.175 And the idea is of course, for this to 01:45:02.175 --> 01:45:06.285 grow into becoming a, a, a, shall we say, 01:45:06.315 --> 01:45:07.275 platform agnostic. 01:45:07.275 --> 01:45:09.675 So it works with every single interoperates 01:45:09.675 --> 01:45:10.995 with every single system that's out 01:45:10.995 --> 01:45:13.665 there, but allows an unprecedented level 01:45:13.665 --> 01:45:17.325 of fidelity and, uh, accuracy in the training. 01:45:17.715 --> 01:45:21.405 And I can't unfortunately go into details of 01:45:21.405 --> 01:45:23.745 exactly what the technology does and how 01:45:23.745 --> 01:45:27.764 it works, but suffice to say that, uh, there are 01:45:27.764 --> 01:45:31.394 a number of high profile entities that have either 01:45:31.394 --> 01:45:33.195 have direct relationships with the company or 01:45:33.195 --> 01:45:34.365 contracts with it. 01:45:35.160 --> 01:45:38.190 Or are in some cases, actual investors. 01:45:38.219 --> 01:45:39.540 If you did a little bit of Googling, you could 01:45:39.540 --> 01:45:41.460 find out some of this information because some 01:45:41.460 --> 01:45:43.710 of it has been publicly released, but it's 01:45:43.710 --> 01:45:47.009 certainly been exciting working at the highest 01:45:47.009 --> 01:45:51.719 end of, as I say, not solutions in search of a 01:45:51.719 --> 01:45:56.370 problem, but applying my many years of technical 01:45:56.370 --> 01:46:00.839 acumen into being able to articulate the vision and 01:46:00.839 --> 01:46:03.210 fine tune it, to be able to use the technology, 01:46:03.210 --> 01:46:06.630 to solve a real problem, but make no mistake 01:46:07.019 --> 01:46:09.990 the, to touch on the storytelling aspects. 01:46:10.589 --> 01:46:14.910 Uh, the transition from, shall we say the 01:46:14.910 --> 01:46:17.429 abstraction going back to UX again, of a keyboard 01:46:17.429 --> 01:46:18.630 and a mouse and a screen. 01:46:19.589 --> 01:46:22.169 Into something that you touch, like a 01:46:22.169 --> 01:46:27.299 touch screen phone into the, uh, an iWatch 01:46:27.360 --> 01:46:29.519 or a smart watch that you use to interact 01:46:29.519 --> 01:46:30.360 with information. 01:46:30.959 --> 01:46:33.240 And then you go in, there's a, if you think 01:46:33.240 --> 01:46:35.940 about it information or sorry, the devices 01:46:35.940 --> 01:46:37.950 by which we consume information of a 01:46:37.950 --> 01:46:40.799 networked variety are shrinking at the 01:46:40.799 --> 01:46:42.089 same time as they're shrinking, they're 01:46:42.089 --> 01:46:43.200 becoming more intimate. 01:46:43.440 --> 01:46:45.570 So the mechanism by which we interact with them 01:46:45.570 --> 01:46:46.799 becomes more intuitive. 01:46:47.549 --> 01:46:49.709 And the augmented reality headsets 01:46:49.740 --> 01:46:52.320 are just the natural evolution of that. 01:46:52.799 --> 01:46:54.330 And for me, this is fascinating 01:46:54.330 --> 01:46:54.929 because this is. 01:46:56.130 --> 01:46:59.640 This is, I would argue possibly the largest 01:46:59.640 --> 01:47:02.760 inflection point in the way in which humans 01:47:02.760 --> 01:47:04.830 interact with each other and humans interact 01:47:04.860 --> 01:47:08.880 with information since the very first iPhone. 01:47:09.330 --> 01:47:12.030 So augmented reality is a massive leap and 01:47:12.060 --> 01:47:15.630 it is still not fully understood exactly what 01:47:15.630 --> 01:47:18.300 this means in the same way that, you know, when 01:47:18.300 --> 01:47:20.580 the iPhone one first came out or people had 01:47:20.580 --> 01:47:23.460 an idea that Google maps would be a thing, but 01:47:23.460 --> 01:47:25.290 nobody knew Instagram would be a thing. 01:47:25.290 --> 01:47:27.090 Nobody knew Snapchat would be a thing. 01:47:27.090 --> 01:47:30.240 Nobody knew Pokemon go or, or NFTs or 01:47:30.240 --> 01:47:31.980 crypto would be a thing that people would 01:47:31.980 --> 01:47:33.000 do on mobile phones. 01:47:33.800 --> 01:47:36.530 They just kind of thought let's build it 01:47:36.530 --> 01:47:37.610 and see what happens. 01:47:38.000 --> 01:47:40.880 So the augmented reality world is, is 01:47:40.880 --> 01:47:41.840 a little bit similar. 01:47:41.870 --> 01:47:43.280 It's, it's massive. 01:47:43.280 --> 01:47:46.070 And the idea, there are many fantastical 01:47:46.070 --> 01:47:49.250 dystopian views of what this could look like. 01:47:49.610 --> 01:47:51.710 For example, if you're, if people want to really 01:47:51.710 --> 01:47:53.870 Google for things, you can look for something 01:47:53.870 --> 01:47:55.490 called a reality. 01:47:55.880 --> 01:47:59.120 It's, uh, a guy who made, uh, a mock-up 01:47:59.150 --> 01:48:01.370 video of what augmented reality run a muck 01:48:01.370 --> 01:48:02.120 would look like. 01:48:02.480 --> 01:48:03.950 Every single thing is an ad. 01:48:03.950 --> 01:48:05.990 So you're walking down the road and instead 01:48:05.990 --> 01:48:08.120 of seeing a wall of a house that would 01:48:08.120 --> 01:48:09.260 be a personal ad. 01:48:09.290 --> 01:48:12.110 That's done precisely for you because companies 01:48:12.110 --> 01:48:13.730 like Facebook or whatever, the future 01:48:13.730 --> 01:48:15.200 versions of Facebook would look like, 01:48:15.410 --> 01:48:17.120 capture a significant amount of data. 01:48:17.120 --> 01:48:18.380 They know who you are, they know your 01:48:18.380 --> 01:48:20.240 demographic, they know what you last bought. 01:48:20.510 --> 01:48:22.550 They know what webpages you browsed. 01:48:22.880 --> 01:48:24.140 And because of that, they conserve your 01:48:24.140 --> 01:48:26.900 personalized ads and you can't stop it because 01:48:26.900 --> 01:48:28.430 you're just walking around and you've got 01:48:28.430 --> 01:48:31.250 your multimillion dollar mentored reality had 01:48:31.250 --> 01:48:32.990 said, which, by the way, you didn't pay for it. 01:48:32.990 --> 01:48:35.090 It's entirely advertising subsidized, or because 01:48:35.090 --> 01:48:37.970 of that, you're, you are forced to have a constant 01:48:37.970 --> 01:48:39.920 barrage of advertising invading every 01:48:39.920 --> 01:48:41.090 aspect of your life. 01:48:41.120 --> 01:48:44.360 So, as I said, there are tons of dystopian 01:48:44.360 --> 01:48:46.370 versions of what AR could look like. 01:48:47.030 --> 01:48:50.420 And I'm very aware that I, and many other 01:48:50.420 --> 01:48:52.790 people who are in the key parts of this 01:48:52.790 --> 01:48:54.710 industry are on the cutting edge of defining 01:48:54.710 --> 01:48:55.640 what this looks like. 01:48:56.030 --> 01:48:58.070 But the way I see it, I have two choices. 01:48:59.550 --> 01:49:01.800 I ignore it in which case it's going to 01:49:01.800 --> 01:49:05.730 happen anyway, uh, or I take an active role 01:49:05.730 --> 01:49:08.219 in shaping what this stuff looks like, and 01:49:08.219 --> 01:49:10.740 hopefully I can make it less dystopian and more 01:49:10.769 --> 01:49:12.690 practical and efficient, just like I've done 01:49:12.690 --> 01:49:13.769 with many other things. 01:49:14.429 --> 01:49:17.460 So the biggest reason for me, the fascination 01:49:17.460 --> 01:49:18.900 with the Red6 is twofold. 01:49:19.290 --> 01:49:21.059 One, is this an incredibly challenging 01:49:21.059 --> 01:49:22.500 problem to try and solve? 01:49:23.040 --> 01:49:25.830 Because it's very fast moving aircraft, 01:49:25.830 --> 01:49:27.990 complicated physics split-second, 01:49:27.990 --> 01:49:31.349 decision-making required extremely low latencies 01:49:31.860 --> 01:49:34.290 and high speeds and high fidelity required. 01:49:34.950 --> 01:49:38.250 But also it's for me scratching the surface 01:49:38.250 --> 01:49:41.370 of what the what's now being referred 01:49:41.370 --> 01:49:44.009 to as the metaverse could look like, what 01:49:44.009 --> 01:49:46.710 does it look like when you're fusing real and 01:49:46.710 --> 01:49:49.440 digital information in various different ways? 01:49:50.190 --> 01:49:53.940 And I feel that it's, it's an inevitable 01:49:53.940 --> 01:49:55.050 future, as I said. 01:49:55.560 --> 01:49:57.930 And it's extremely interesting for me to, to 01:49:57.930 --> 01:50:01.050 understand which parts of it are critical problems 01:50:01.050 --> 01:50:03.330 to solve that I feel like could that I'm the 01:50:03.330 --> 01:50:04.350 right person to shape. 01:50:05.760 --> 01:50:06.990 Holy crow. 01:50:07.080 --> 01:50:10.200 Honestly, if we had a few more hours to talk, and I 01:50:10.200 --> 01:50:14.520 know we don't, you just, there's so many points 01:50:14.520 --> 01:50:16.290 in what you just brought out that I would love to 01:50:16.290 --> 01:50:17.970 delve into, into further. 01:50:18.870 --> 01:50:20.640 I mean, we can, you know, we can always do another 01:50:20.640 --> 01:50:22.380 one at some 0.1 side. 01:50:22.410 --> 01:50:25.470 Once I pick up another project, there's all 01:50:25.470 --> 01:50:26.970 kinds of stuff that we can talk about. 01:50:27.270 --> 01:50:29.220 But yeah, look, I mean the, there, there's no 01:50:29.220 --> 01:50:34.020 question that there are, if you start digging, 01:50:34.530 --> 01:50:37.470 uh, you can very quickly find out that somewhere 01:50:37.470 --> 01:50:44.010 between AI and AR and crypto and robotics is 01:50:44.310 --> 01:50:47.820 this weird future that, that some people have 01:50:48.570 --> 01:50:51.540 looked at in episodes of black mirror and gone, 01:50:51.930 --> 01:50:53.070 whoa, hang on a second. 01:50:53.070 --> 01:50:53.790 This is horrible. 01:50:53.790 --> 01:50:55.440 Robot dogs are going to kill us all. 01:50:55.680 --> 01:50:56.820 What's going to happen next. 01:50:57.240 --> 01:50:59.130 Uh, and then there's other fascinating 01:50:59.130 --> 01:51:00.840 things that might be positive, but there's, 01:51:00.870 --> 01:51:02.490 there's certainly a lot of negativity out 01:51:02.490 --> 01:51:05.160 there because yes, of course it's possible. 01:51:05.880 --> 01:51:07.950 You take a look at AI and you just fast 01:51:07.950 --> 01:51:09.630 forward the clock and you get some version 01:51:09.630 --> 01:51:10.270 of the terminator. 01:51:10.270 --> 01:51:11.309 So that's going to kill us all. 01:51:12.780 --> 01:51:14.490 And there are some people out there who are 01:51:14.490 --> 01:51:17.910 building things so that if you say to them, hey, 01:51:17.910 --> 01:51:19.080 you're building Skynet. 01:51:19.380 --> 01:51:19.950 They might go. 01:51:19.950 --> 01:51:20.160 Yeah. 01:51:20.160 --> 01:51:21.510 In fact, one of our projects is 01:51:21.510 --> 01:51:22.290 called Skynet. 01:51:22.290 --> 01:51:24.360 So they don't quite realize the joke that 01:51:24.360 --> 01:51:27.269 you're making, but there is, there's 01:51:27.269 --> 01:51:30.480 an inevitability to technological progress. 01:51:30.480 --> 01:51:33.300 That's kind of what I was alluding to, um, 01:51:33.570 --> 01:51:36.540 digging our heads in the sand, unless we're all 01:51:36.540 --> 01:51:39.315 gonna destroy everything. 01:51:39.315 --> 01:51:41.235 And send us back into the stone ages with 01:51:41.235 --> 01:51:43.545 some giant sequence of electromagnetic pulses, 01:51:43.545 --> 01:51:45.375 which is theoretically possible, but highly 01:51:45.375 --> 01:51:48.195 unlikely technological progress is inevitable. 01:51:48.195 --> 01:51:49.785 The question is, what do we do with it? 01:51:50.235 --> 01:51:52.305 Uh, do we, do we do something that makes 01:51:52.305 --> 01:51:55.365 things better or do we, do we do something 01:51:55.365 --> 01:51:57.105 that just makes things more profitable? 01:51:57.675 --> 01:51:59.085 And there's an interesting line 01:51:59.085 --> 01:52:03.705 there because as, as, uh, as, as woke as 01:52:03.705 --> 01:52:06.015 some venture capital investors might claim, 01:52:06.015 --> 01:52:08.085 they are ultimately their investors, 01:52:08.115 --> 01:52:09.695 they're seeking a return on investments. 01:52:09.695 --> 01:52:10.875 So they're trying to make money. 01:52:11.265 --> 01:52:15.105 It's up to us as the inventors to, to use 01:52:15.105 --> 01:52:17.445 that money, to create things that are obviously 01:52:17.775 --> 01:52:19.425 provide a healthy return on investment. 01:52:19.425 --> 01:52:20.505 Otherwise you're not going to get the money 01:52:20.505 --> 01:52:24.465 again, but also steer the, the objects in 01:52:24.465 --> 01:52:28.184 such a way that they are both useful and usable. 01:52:28.725 --> 01:52:31.215 And all of this ties back to, to some of 01:52:31.215 --> 01:52:32.865 the UX stuff we talked about with pepper 01:52:32.865 --> 01:52:35.175 shakers, and these handles, it's all about 01:52:35.175 --> 01:52:36.885 trying to understand what's the problem 01:52:36.885 --> 01:52:37.695 we're trying to solve. 01:52:37.725 --> 01:52:38.894 Why are we trying to solve it? 01:52:39.195 --> 01:52:40.695 How do we make it something that's 01:52:40.695 --> 01:52:43.155 interesting and valuable that people want? 01:52:43.455 --> 01:52:44.985 And from the perspective of people like 01:52:44.985 --> 01:52:46.755 myself, people who are the creators, 01:52:47.144 --> 01:52:49.005 how do we continue to challenge ourselves? 01:52:49.740 --> 01:52:53.400 To, to make things I guess, interesting 01:52:53.400 --> 01:52:54.060 and valuable. 01:52:54.150 --> 01:52:55.830 I mean, as far as I'm concerned, I'm going 01:52:55.830 --> 01:52:57.690 to do this thing that I'm going to continue 01:52:57.690 --> 01:52:59.370 to do these kinds of things forever. 01:52:59.730 --> 01:53:01.290 I don't see any reason to stop so 01:53:01.290 --> 01:53:03.510 long as I continue to remain interested. 01:53:03.990 --> 01:53:05.790 And of course, as long as I continue to find 01:53:06.090 --> 01:53:07.980 the kind of people that I want to work with 01:53:08.240 --> 01:53:11.190 to, to, to go along for the journey, as I 01:53:11.190 --> 01:53:13.320 mentioned in connection with the documentary, 01:53:13.980 --> 01:53:17.730 it's all well and good me having interesting 01:53:17.730 --> 01:53:21.240 ideas, but first and foremost requirement, 01:53:21.270 --> 01:53:22.170 before you even. 01:53:22.980 --> 01:53:24.960 Try to convince an investor to part with 01:53:24.960 --> 01:53:27.629 their dollars is you've got to find people 01:53:27.629 --> 01:53:28.980 who are going to join you for the journey, 01:53:29.339 --> 01:53:32.730 which means your first problem is to convince 01:53:32.730 --> 01:53:35.460 someone else that your idea is something 01:53:35.460 --> 01:53:37.980 that they can risk X amount of months or 01:53:37.980 --> 01:53:40.139 years of their life on. 01:53:40.559 --> 01:53:43.049 Because if you can't do that, then maybe you 01:53:43.049 --> 01:53:45.690 should reconsider maybe the idea that if you, 01:53:45.700 --> 01:53:48.240 if you're not able to articulate the idea, to 01:53:48.240 --> 01:53:50.580 describe it, to have the requisite passion, to use 01:53:50.580 --> 01:53:52.710 the kind of vocabulary that people understand, 01:53:53.160 --> 01:53:55.889 there's a lot of names of very important the way 01:53:55.889 --> 01:53:57.960 in which you talk about things, the way in which 01:53:57.990 --> 01:53:59.009 things are structured. 01:53:59.339 --> 01:54:00.929 That's, that's what I spend a lot of time 01:54:00.929 --> 01:54:03.179 doing is defining and articulating 01:54:03.179 --> 01:54:04.139 product lines. 01:54:04.500 --> 01:54:06.750 So there's a, there's a thing called Elif. 01:54:07.019 --> 01:54:08.400 I don't know if you've heard the term elephant, 01:54:08.639 --> 01:54:12.240 L E L I F stands for explain like I'm five, 01:54:12.990 --> 01:54:16.440 uh, because, because here's the thing, there 01:54:16.440 --> 01:54:18.599 are a lot of, there's a lot of smart people 01:54:18.599 --> 01:54:21.389 around and in some cases, those smart 01:54:21.389 --> 01:54:23.610 people, whether they're suffering from, as you 01:54:23.610 --> 01:54:27.030 talked about before, uh, imposter syndrome or not, 01:54:27.509 --> 01:54:29.519 there's a lot of people who, when you ask them 01:54:29.519 --> 01:54:33.030 to explain a complicated concept, they'll can 01:54:33.030 --> 01:54:34.860 quick look quickly dastardly with a bunch of 01:54:34.860 --> 01:54:36.089 scientific terminology. 01:54:36.509 --> 01:54:38.639 But if you ask them to explain like I'm 01:54:38.639 --> 01:54:41.519 five, hence the term, if they can't do it. 01:54:42.270 --> 01:54:44.310 It probably means they don't understand it. 01:54:44.550 --> 01:54:46.920 Not really, if they can't break it down 01:54:46.920 --> 01:54:48.600 into fundamentals, I'm not suggesting 01:54:48.600 --> 01:54:50.970 that you need to be able to, I don't know, 01:54:50.970 --> 01:54:55.050 explain microbiology, using simple block 01:54:55.050 --> 01:54:56.790 diagrams and people are supposed to understand 01:54:56.790 --> 01:54:57.600 every aspect of it. 01:54:57.600 --> 01:54:58.770 That's not, it, it's not, it's not 01:54:58.770 --> 01:55:00.030 reductive in that way. 01:55:00.420 --> 01:55:02.250 I'm saying that if you are not able to 01:55:02.250 --> 01:55:07.590 articulate your vision in a simplified way so that 01:55:07.590 --> 01:55:10.260 it can be compelling to both technologists and 01:55:10.260 --> 01:55:12.270 business people who you might need along for the 01:55:12.270 --> 01:55:15.000 ride, then you should reconsider whether you 01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:17.100 truly understand what you're talking about. 01:55:17.430 --> 01:55:19.980 So I spent a lot of the time, I often advise 01:55:19.980 --> 01:55:21.000 startups and investment. 01:55:21.000 --> 01:55:22.230 A lot of times the startups that I'm 01:55:22.230 --> 01:55:26.160 involved in doing exactly that is trying to take 01:55:26.430 --> 01:55:29.670 nuggets of technological information and structure 01:55:29.670 --> 01:55:31.560 them in such a way that they're more clearly 01:55:31.560 --> 01:55:33.600 understandable because I think that's important 01:55:34.050 --> 01:55:34.890 because ultimately. 01:55:35.620 --> 01:55:38.620 As, as leaders of companies, we 01:55:38.620 --> 01:55:40.540 often do end up being storytellers. 01:55:40.570 --> 01:55:40.900 Yes. 01:55:40.900 --> 01:55:42.639 In the early days you were extremely 01:55:42.639 --> 01:55:44.950 hands-on when you're, when you're needing to 01:55:44.950 --> 01:55:47.500 actually mold the clay and figure out how to 01:55:47.500 --> 01:55:48.580 make it into something. 01:55:49.090 --> 01:55:52.090 But afterwards, as the team starts to grow, uh, 01:55:52.179 --> 01:55:55.900 it ends up oftentimes being just explanation, 01:55:55.900 --> 01:55:59.679 story, passion, investing, pitching it's, 01:56:00.070 --> 01:56:02.650 uh, your role changes your role as a leader, 01:56:02.830 --> 01:56:03.700 definitely changes. 01:56:03.700 --> 01:56:06.009 And I, I enjoy, always have done. 01:56:06.400 --> 01:56:09.759 I definitely enjoyed the zero to 60 miles an hour, 01:56:10.450 --> 01:56:13.240 a lot more than 60 to 70, and certainly a lot 01:56:13.240 --> 01:56:17.620 more than 73 to 74 miles an hour at some point. 01:56:17.620 --> 01:56:17.889 Yes. 01:56:17.889 --> 01:56:20.139 If the company gets big enough, a small 01:56:20.139 --> 01:56:22.389 change in efficiency ends up meaning 01:56:22.389 --> 01:56:23.440 millions of dollars. 01:56:23.530 --> 01:56:26.380 And that's extremely valuable, but I like 01:56:26.380 --> 01:56:28.570 to live in the crazy land, those zero to 01:56:28.570 --> 01:56:30.700 60, they, Hey, here's a bunch of Lego bricks. 01:56:31.000 --> 01:56:32.679 Can you make something in the next six months? 01:56:33.250 --> 01:56:33.910 How do you do that? 01:56:33.910 --> 01:56:35.620 I don't know, but let's wait. 01:56:35.679 --> 01:56:36.429 Oh, that doesn't work. 01:56:36.460 --> 01:56:36.849 Try this. 01:56:36.849 --> 01:56:37.090 Okay. 01:56:37.090 --> 01:56:37.389 Good. 01:56:37.420 --> 01:56:37.900 It worked. 01:56:38.500 --> 01:56:40.210 So that's the bit that I enjoy. 01:56:41.019 --> 01:56:41.980 That's fantastic. 01:56:42.070 --> 01:56:44.230 And hopefully I'll continue to have, I know 01:56:44.230 --> 01:56:47.320 there's a, there's a little bit of childlike. 01:56:47.410 --> 01:56:52.200 Um, shall we say, uh, And ambition is 01:56:52.200 --> 01:56:54.839 the wrong word, a childlike stubbornness 01:56:54.900 --> 01:56:57.750 in this adherence to wanting to solve the 01:56:57.750 --> 01:56:58.919 problem from zero. 01:56:59.610 --> 01:57:02.160 But I think, I think for me, it's really necessary 01:57:02.160 --> 01:57:04.530 because it keeps me focused and motivated. 01:57:05.160 --> 01:57:09.509 Um, the more things become slow and 01:57:09.509 --> 01:57:10.889 incremental progress. 01:57:11.309 --> 01:57:12.599 I'm not suggesting that I don't see 01:57:12.599 --> 01:57:13.349 the value in that. 01:57:13.349 --> 01:57:14.519 I absolutely do. 01:57:14.879 --> 01:57:17.460 It's just not where I Excel, which means 01:57:17.460 --> 01:57:19.650 that for me, is a sign that there needs to be 01:57:19.650 --> 01:57:20.669 someone else brought in. 01:57:20.669 --> 01:57:21.690 And some people really love that. 01:57:21.960 --> 01:57:25.200 Some people love pushing a thing that's 01:57:25.200 --> 01:57:27.839 90% efficient to being 92% efficient. 01:57:27.839 --> 01:57:30.929 They live for those kinds of breakthroughs I live 01:57:30.929 --> 01:57:34.080 for, as I mentioned for the, for the target that 01:57:34.080 --> 01:57:35.070 no one else can see. 01:57:35.190 --> 01:57:37.080 That's where I, that's my sweet spot. 01:57:38.400 --> 01:57:41.040 I am so glad that you agreed to come on this 01:57:41.040 --> 01:57:42.269 Silvercore Podcast. 01:57:42.419 --> 01:57:44.580 Is there anything else that we should 01:57:44.700 --> 01:57:46.349 chat about before we wrap things up here? 01:57:47.490 --> 01:57:50.009 Uh, I'm sure there are a lot of things, but 01:57:50.099 --> 01:57:53.460 I don't know them all because I like, I mean, 01:57:53.460 --> 01:57:55.500 I don't, I know we haven't talked about this 01:57:55.500 --> 01:57:58.830 that much, but I rarely tend to prepare for 01:57:58.830 --> 01:58:00.000 these kinds of things. 01:58:00.360 --> 01:58:02.759 And I find, I find it more natural that way. 01:58:02.790 --> 01:58:04.650 So I don't really know where the conversation's 01:58:04.660 --> 01:58:05.099 going to go. 01:58:05.120 --> 01:58:07.950 I've done a number of different keynotes, uh, 01:58:07.980 --> 01:58:10.259 for conferences where people asked me to talk 01:58:10.259 --> 01:58:13.259 about, I don't know, invention or what I see. 01:58:13.259 --> 01:58:15.210 This is the future of media as a recent 01:58:15.210 --> 01:58:15.870 one that I did. 01:58:16.469 --> 01:58:17.429 And it's interesting cause I know 01:58:17.429 --> 01:58:18.169 some people who. 01:58:18.885 --> 01:58:24.075 Viewed as, uh, as, as, as good speakers and sure. 01:58:24.315 --> 01:58:26.445 On the surface of it, you know, you go, okay, 01:58:26.445 --> 01:58:28.275 this sounds like the sounds kind of compelling 01:58:28.275 --> 01:58:28.965 and passionate. 01:58:29.790 --> 01:58:31.290 But then you realize that the entire thing 01:58:31.290 --> 01:58:34.980 is pre-rehearsed down to every single inflection. 01:58:35.190 --> 01:58:37.380 And again, it works right. 01:58:37.380 --> 01:58:39.810 If the audience has happy, it works, 01:58:39.840 --> 01:58:41.310 but I can't do that. 01:58:41.370 --> 01:58:42.780 And the reason I can't do that is because I get 01:58:42.780 --> 01:58:44.040 bored of my own voice. 01:58:44.550 --> 01:58:46.920 If I have to say the same thing over and over 01:58:46.920 --> 01:58:48.270 again, I can't stand it. 01:58:48.600 --> 01:58:51.960 So I tend to just, I have bullet points. 01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:54.090 I have a vague outline of what I want to say, 01:58:54.450 --> 01:58:57.600 but I guess I know if there's one thing that 01:58:57.600 --> 01:58:59.940 I wanted people to walk away from this. 01:58:59.940 --> 01:59:02.220 I did a, when we took a quick break, I did a bit 01:59:02.220 --> 01:59:04.650 of thinking, thinking if I'm watching this or 01:59:04.650 --> 01:59:07.170 listening to this the first time, and I think, 01:59:07.410 --> 01:59:10.260 I don't want to say anything, trite like, oh, 01:59:10.260 --> 01:59:11.640 just follow your dreams. 01:59:11.640 --> 01:59:12.780 Everything will always be fine. 01:59:12.780 --> 01:59:15.630 No, that's nonsense because it depends 01:59:15.780 --> 01:59:16.620 on the person. 01:59:16.620 --> 01:59:18.090 It depends on what you really want. 01:59:18.420 --> 01:59:21.210 What I would like to say though, is that like 01:59:21.210 --> 01:59:24.510 with most things in life, the most important thing 01:59:24.510 --> 01:59:26.730 is the first step as you and I talked about 01:59:26.730 --> 01:59:29.610 before, when we were talking about stress and 01:59:29.610 --> 01:59:31.050 in particular, we were talking about the idea 01:59:31.050 --> 01:59:33.360 of coming into this pitch meeting or an interview 01:59:33.360 --> 01:59:34.860 or a presentation or something that 01:59:34.860 --> 01:59:35.700 you're nervous about. 01:59:36.420 --> 01:59:38.515 Uh, opening the door. 01:59:38.515 --> 01:59:41.485 Isn't usually the problem because in many cases, 01:59:41.485 --> 01:59:42.475 the doors already open. 01:59:42.475 --> 01:59:44.905 You just have to take the first step, but taking 01:59:44.905 --> 01:59:47.845 the first, the problem isn't the presentation. 01:59:47.875 --> 01:59:50.125 The presentation will happen, whether you like 01:59:50.125 --> 01:59:52.165 it or not, if you're able to step through the door. 01:59:52.585 --> 01:59:55.225 So it's the taking the first step bit that I 01:59:55.225 --> 01:59:58.105 think is the, is the thing that I would like 01:59:58.105 --> 02:00:01.195 to encourage people to try to reframe as 02:00:01.195 --> 02:00:03.465 you put it from is something that's that's. 02:00:03.535 --> 02:00:05.725 If you can, if you can constantly keep 02:00:05.725 --> 02:00:08.365 yourself excited about exploring and learning 02:00:08.365 --> 02:00:11.605 something new, then it really doesn't matter. 02:00:11.605 --> 02:00:13.525 In some cases what happens afterwards, 02:00:13.885 --> 02:00:16.645 because as the saying goes, if it 02:00:16.645 --> 02:00:18.055 doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. 02:00:18.055 --> 02:00:20.185 So obviously yes, don't do stuff like this with 02:00:20.185 --> 02:00:21.445 knives or with poisons. 02:00:21.445 --> 02:00:23.605 And certainly if someone tells you that 02:00:23.605 --> 02:00:25.915 horse dewormers, a good idea, maybe think 02:00:25.915 --> 02:00:26.695 twice about that. 02:00:27.265 --> 02:00:30.445 But, um, at the risk of going into rabbit 02:00:30.445 --> 02:00:34.165 hole that we won't get out of four, then, uh, 02:00:34.525 --> 02:00:36.295 we'll we'll perhaps leave it at that. 02:00:36.565 --> 02:00:37.705 So be sensible. 02:00:37.705 --> 02:00:40.165 But if you want to stay youthful and 02:00:40.165 --> 02:00:42.835 energetic, don't be afraid to take risks. 02:00:43.225 --> 02:00:43.675 That's all. 02:00:44.580 --> 02:00:46.470 Nick you've led an extraordinary life. 02:00:46.500 --> 02:00:48.870 And I know for a fact the best is yet to come. 02:00:49.050 --> 02:00:51.300 Thank you for, I really appreciate 02:00:51.300 --> 02:00:52.290 being invited on this. 02:00:52.290 --> 02:00:54.059 And I apologize if I went slightly deep 02:00:54.059 --> 02:00:55.019 into some rabbit holes. 02:00:55.530 --> 02:00:57.030 If I did, it was only because I 02:00:57.030 --> 02:00:57.690 enjoyed talking.