Silvan (00:00)
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Long Game, a heated rivalry podcast.

So last time we talked about why the show hooks us in. In this part, in part two, we're going to be going a little bit deeper into what's underneath that.

And here, Eliza, I really want to sort of lean into your experience as a trauma therapist. And I was thinking, you know, about sort of the concept of love in the show and also about some of the backstories and the trauma behind it. I wanted to ask if you saw trauma influencing

how these characters relate to each other.

Eliza (00:40)
⁓ Yes, absolutely. mean, I think and like we were talking about in the last episode, the trauma that Ilya experienced is a little more overt. We see that on the screen. We can make the inferences ⁓ from his interactions with his family. And I also I think and I don't know that I said this last time, just also the trauma of ⁓ being queer in a hostile world. Like that's kind of like cuts across like the whole book series.

I mean, that is trauma. Like it's like a form of minority stress. ⁓ and so that's something like that they both experienced or bringing in, right? Like, and like we were talking about last time about the culture being the villain, like that's the trauma of living in a culture where it's not safe to be out. ⁓ and even furthermore, like Ilya in Russia in particular, right? So it's not safe. You know, I think Shane is more safe as a Canadian to be out. ⁓ because Canada had.

Gay marriage in Canada was like in 2008, I think, something like that. So it's like a different, culturally different that way, but also within hockey, right? Like even now, there's no out NHL players in 2026. And then, you know, certainly in other sports leagues and things like that. they're obviously, well, women's sports league is very different story. Men's sports leagues, very few out people across professional sports in general. So that's trauma in its own self. And that's going to affect how they are

mean, just the shape of their relationship altogether, right? The fact that it had to be secret. ⁓ The fact that it was this kind of coming together and moving apart for so long. ⁓ It's just the trauma of like not actually having, being able to be who they are openly, I think.

Declan (02:27)
Yeah, and it's so strongly influences the way that they interact with each other and the way that their relationship ends up developing. You can see it, I think, in that more obvious way with Ilya. ⁓ Obviously, he lost his mom. He had emotionally unavailable father and brother ⁓ who were always hypercritical of him. ⁓

He constantly was used to wearing a mask. So he was in of his father. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Never expressed fully what he actually thought or what he had an opinion on. Whereas when he's with Shane, it's kind of the opposite. He can sort of be himself a lot more. And you can see that there is very little company in that circle of people. You have Svetlana and you have Shane and they are the only people that Ilya is truly

really authentic with. that just goes back to the way that he was raised. ⁓ Shane, I think you were right in the previous episode. I think a lot of has has to do with neurodivergence. And also the struggle that he would have trying to fit in as well as a result of the way that he naturally is. And yeah, you can sort of see how their struggles would interact with each other in a way that would be really messy.

And that's exactly what you get. You get to pretty messy people that not only are they dealing with how their trauma interacts with each other, but also the fact that they're both young and inexperienced. So all of that is sort of playing up to make this very entertaining high drama, which is probably really stressful in real life.

Eliza (04:18)
you

Silvan (04:19)
And in a way, what I even wanted to ask in the first episode, Eliza, was the concept of trauma itself. Because in pop culture and especially on social media, the term trauma is thrown around a lot.

Eliza (04:25)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (04:33)
I wanted to ask what your sort of take on that was and whether there is a difference between like capital T trauma or little t trauma or if that's again a pop culture reference that isn't really something that someone who works in trauma specifically would even use.

Eliza (04:52)
Sure. Yeah. It's so funny that you say that because I was talking about that. I was leading a training yesterday about how I, know, big T versus little T trauma. Like when we say big T, we mean often like a single incident, right? Like a car accident, a house fire, things like that. And I don't love that we call it little T like, but the kind of, what we get from that is complex trauma, right? It's like death by a thousand cuts. It's like that lifetime of misattunement or emotional neglect or emotional abuse or, ⁓

any of those things, right? And frankly, in my opinion, as a trauma therapist, there are a lot more people walking around with complex trauma than with single incident trauma. I think there are many, people in the world who live their lives with trauma symptoms and don't realize that's what's happening. Right. And I was thinking like in preparation for our conversation today, like, I don't know that I, you know, obviously I'm

can't diagnose a character, right? But like, I don't know that I see enough in Ilya that I can say, this is a person with complex trauma ⁓ as a disorder. He has complex trauma, right? We see the dissociation, we see the heightened startle response. ⁓ I mean, of course, I think anyone would be shocked when he walks in and Svetlana is like in his dark house, like I think anyone, but like it was a really big startle response. Like the trauma symptoms are there, the depression, but I think the dissociation kind of, we see that all through the show.

⁓ even like, in that moment in episode six, after they've said that they love each other and then he's like staring off and like Shane is on his chest and they talk about, ⁓ calling it the arena foundation. Like he was dissociating then. Right. He is self-destructive habits, his smoking, his drinking, like all of those things. These are all trauma symptoms. It's all there. But I'm like, could I look at the DSM and say, check it off enough boxes? I don't know. ⁓ but absolutely. Like.

that they did a really beautiful job of lacing that through the whole show. ⁓ You know, even in this like beautiful happy moment, he's still there's still like a little bit of him that's gone, right, which is what we see with complex trauma. And then I think with Shane, ⁓ certainly I think he has like anxiety disorders, like some kind of anxiety disorder that, know, probably related in a lot of ways to his neurodivergence. I think there's like so much overlap there. ⁓

And, you know, his, another, another thing that I see with complex trauma is this, it's listed in the DSM as like ⁓ an outside sense of control. And I think that's like, when I think about the trauma symptom that I see most out in the world, that's what it is of people who are trying to control others versus ⁓ controlling that having that internal locus of control themselves, ⁓ which is a trauma, right?

Declan (07:40)
Mm-hmm.

Eliza (07:43)
I mean, and like life is inherently uncontrollable, right? Like I tell people when I talk about this, I'm like a meteor could fall on my house right now. I have no control over that. but you know, when a person doesn't have a trauma disorder, like we kind of, ⁓ just don't think about that. It's, know, like not denial, but it's just like cognitive dissonance. That's what I'm trying to think of. But when a person has experienced trauma and their brain has literally changed, their amygdala has gotten bigger. Their hippocampus has gotten smaller.

⁓ they're going to have a different relationship with the idea of control. ⁓ So that's where I see it most in Shane is like that just intense need to control.

Declan (08:26)
Yeah, it's curious then that Shane like, succeeds so much control whenever it comes to the bedroom. When he is the one that allows Ilya to take charge, he is sort of finding a safe haven in a sense in Ilya. And I think that's part of what attracts Shane to Ilya is that he is someone for seemingly unknowing reasons. Shane finds

Eliza (08:36)
Mm-hmm.

with.

Declan (08:56)
huge ⁓

I trust Ilya I have that mutually assured destruction thing going on where I can trust him that he is not going to do this thing to me. He's not going to out me. He's not going to ruin my life because it would be as equally destructive for him to do so. So I don't know. I would love to ask Shane what's playing in your head whenever you find yourself being more submissive? Like what do you feel?

Where is that coming from? Why Ilya? Why Ilya specifically? What is it with him and the that he behaves and the way that he sort of presents himself? what draws that to him?

Eliza (10:10)
And I think Ilya is ultimately like a service top. Like he's going to just like, he's trying to make sure anyone he's with is having a good time. And so like, but he recognizes the submissiveness and Shane. And so he's like, sure, whatever you want, you know what I mean? ⁓ you know, if you need me to be like more dominant, I can be more dominant, but I don't, I don't think that necessarily reflects in like all of his, ⁓ hookups or other kinds of sexual experiences.

Declan (10:23)
and

Eliza (10:38)
I think he's just like there for whatever his partner needs, which also, you know, we could call that like a form of people pleasing from childhood trauma if we wanted to really like dig into that. But also, I think when it comes to like what people do in the bedroom and like, even if they're like working out trauma in one way or another, as long as everyone's consenting and having a good time, like, doesn't have to be dug into that deeply. Because it can be a really safe place to like work those things out.

Silvan (11:06)
Yeah, and that's almost what I wanted to ask you about is how trauma is enacted in a sexual relationship and how that plays out in a hopefully safe way.

Eliza (11:13)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (11:19)
I thought it was like the idea of people pleasing translating to the bedroom. I've never even thought of that before but yeah, that would be Why not? Entirely yeah, that makes perfect sense that Not just in a social setting but obviously in a sexual setting as well You would still carry the same habits over that your trauma is giving you it doesn't switch off just because you claim only a bed So that's very interesting. I never thought of that before

Eliza (11:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think like attachment wounds, I am endlessly fascinated at how people are really good at unconsciously recreating those dynamics ⁓ in their relationships. like, this like, it's like this unconscious meaning of the mind of like two people whose attachment wounds like line up in some way. ⁓ And then these dynamics get enacted, right? And like when that's like in a bigger relationship sense, it can be

you know, really healing or it can be really toxic depending on where people are in their own like journeys of self understanding. But I think when there's like a mutually trusting sexual relationship, I do think Shane and Ilya not super great at like even maybe knowing what it is that they're doing. So when we talk about like safe, sane and consensual, I don't think they have any idea what that is. They are just like going with it and seeing what happens. But like the trust between them is enough.

that everyone ultimately does stay safe, right? But like, so if you have this, but this like safe environment where you can kind of reenact these trauma dynamics, even if that's like, of course not like consciously what's happening, it can be a way to, because like at the end of the story, if people get after care, like after a scene or whatever, if people get after care and like that, that often does change that abandonment or that attachment wound or that abandonment wound story.

Right? And like that's the only way ultimately to heal from attachment wounds is the story has to have a different ending. And so if things are done safely, it is, it can be a way to like move through that. But a lot of people are doing this without even knowing that that's what they're doing.

Silvan (13:32)
Yeah, and I really love this idea that you talked about about all of this being enacted on an unconscious level because you're right.

Eliza (13:40)
Okay.

Declan (13:40)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (13:42)
I was even thinking about the transference that occurs between a client and a therapist and how that's enacted and a lot of the defenses that the client is bringing through any trauma or any past experiences is enacted in that relationship with the therapist, for example. And so I never really thought about some of those attachment wounds and some of that transference being enacted in the bedroom like Declan was saying. That's really

Eliza (14:01)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Silvan (14:11)
It's just it's given me a whole like three day bender on on on Wikipedia to look at now.

Declan (14:15)
you

Eliza (14:17)
Yeah, well, no, think, yeah, it's like ultimately, all of our relationships are transference and counter transference, right? And as a therapist, I've had to learn to be really thoughtful about when this is happening and like being able to like learn and listen in my own body and my own counter transference of when I'm getting pulled into a reenactment. And I'm not perfect at it. Like no one is. I just am more experienced now. ⁓ But

There's something that's so beautiful about therapy work where the relationship is in the room and it is happening in the room and we get to talk about what's happening in the room. ⁓ Or at least if we're not to the point where we can talk about it, we get to notice what's happening in the room. ⁓ And how that can then be, ⁓ you know, I feel like my work, a lot of the times I'm a consistent attachment object for the people that I work with until they are able to then go back out into the world.

Declan (14:59)
Mm-hmm.

Eliza (15:15)
So yeah, there's just like, there's reenactments happening all the time. Like we're always projecting. We can never fully understand someone else's experience. So it's like, if we can be aware of that, but it shows up kind of everywhere. It shows up in the bedroom. It shows up when you're driving down the road. It shows up like all of these places, right? Our brain is like taking these shortcuts of like, I've been here before. I know what's happening without actually knowing.

Declan (15:42)
Yeah, I like what you said about aftercare as well, because it's. It's very, it's a very useful tool. When Jacob Tierney is using it in the show to show exactly how the two are feeling about each other at any one time, if they're offering aftercare, they're in a good way. If they're not offering aftercare, they're in a bad way. And you can sort of see that ⁓ sort of in that initial hookup that they have.

Ilya is quite caring in the way in which that folds. And in the following one, then when they like go fully, like when they fully have sex at the apartment, again, the aftercare is there, you see them on the stairs and they're having their little back and forth and they share that really, intimate kiss. That's the only way I can describe it. Compare that to whenever

Eliza (16:26)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (16:41)
They're at the hotel and Ilya is having Shane lie on the bed himself and he's watching and it's very voyeuristic. The aftercare there, non-existent because something's going on with Ilya. Like they're so emotionally turbulent in him at that moment where he doesn't want to encourage anything at all from Shane and so he withdraws the care.

Eliza (17:03)
That's our moment.

Declan (17:11)
So he does. He doesn't try to make Shane feel safe and secure and wanted. He tries to do the opposite and it has a massive impact on Shane. Shane then immediately communicates through the really clever sort of text message on the side of the screen. Like we didn't even kiss. Like you can see that that emotionally devastated him because of the way in which that care was withdrawn. And it's a very

Eliza (17:19)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (17:39)
clever way of Jacob Tierney expressing exactly where these guys are at at any one point in their relationship.

Silvan (17:47)
And I can attest the make out for me is the best bit.

Eliza (17:51)
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Sometimes the charcuterie is just like the kisses for sure. Wow. And I think what you're saying Declan about, you know, I think such a good perspective about how that was, you know, Jacob Tierney was telegraphing where they were. And I also think what I was saying earlier about like, they don't know what they're doing as far as like these dynamics. Ilya had known like how devastating, like obviously he knew he was being like not cool about it.

But if he had known how devastating it was after such an intense experience, I don't think he would have. He's not a bad person. He was in his own head, he had his own struggles. He was frustrated that Shane couldn't understand why he wouldn't want to go home. I can understand him just being like, what are you even talking about? Of course I don't want to go home and of course I have to. Shane is naive in that way. if he had known how devastating it would be, I don't think he would have been that.

Declan (18:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Eliza (18:50)
corrupt. But they don't know what they're doing. They don't know what aftercare is. We're talking about it. They don't know what that is. They're just like stumbling. They're messy. They're just figuring this out. They're like inventing this all. They don't know it's like the whole thing that they could understand better already.

Declan (19:06)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (19:07)
And Liza, you talked about sort of your experience as a therapist, know, being the having the transference projected on to I'm nodding out here because I'm in the midst of it myself and I'm

sort of wondering what it's like from the therapist's perspective, having a lot of these projections projected onto, but also having to hold that space in the room. What's that like for you, you know, working with people in a trauma specific way?

Eliza (19:36)
Hmm. I don't take it personally. Right. It's like, I know that it's not about me. And so that allows me to have like, some distance. And this was like a learning process, like I had to figure out like, you know, when you first start and you're you're just like learning how to do this work, it's very easy ⁓ to, again, get pulled into the project to the to the reenactment.

Um, and if someone is behaving in a certain way towards you and you respond to that in a way that they expect that's reinforcing that reenactment. And so I had to learn. now I say like the, my favorite thing in early, you know, early-ish therapy treatment and early-ish could be years, by the way, I have some folks I'm coming up on seven years with, um, is when somebody gets mad at me. Because they trust me enough to get mad at me and tell me that they're mad at me and let, let me.

have that space to attempt repair. Like that's the best thing. I'm getting like goosebumps talking about it. So like, which is very different from just like my day to day life where like outside of if someone is mad at me, I'm like, oh, why are you mad at me? You know, it's better about that now too. Like that's the shadow side of doing this work is like you kind of get better in your own life in some ways. But I'm able to have like a distance from it that

Declan (20:38)
Mmm.

Eliza (21:03)
It's still, I still care. Of course, things like that, but I don't, it's not about me. I mean like how cool and how beautiful that I have the space to see that. So I can, like you said, like hold that.

Silvan (21:16)
Yeah, and in a way when you were saying that I was almost thinking about sort of like my relationship with my parents, for example, and how I could tell my mum, you know, the wildest things and, you know, how angry I was at her and all of that stuff because she created that environment where I could say that and it was a safe environment to say things like that as a child, have to preface. ⁓ But I would never have done that to my father, never.

Eliza (21:38)
Thank you.

Silvan (21:44)
Like there was no security there that if I said I hated him, for example, which I don't for the record, you know, that that would have been held in a way that would have contained my feelings.

Eliza (21:56)
Right.

that's generational trauma, right? Like if someone has never learned how to do that and to hold that space for someone, and because they didn't have that themselves, they can't do that for their children without some help and learning. So it's like, goes back and back and back.

Silvan (22:12)
Yeah, and in a way I was also thinking about what we were talking about in part one. You know, we touched on trauma bonding a little bit, and I wondered what the difference for you between trauma bonding between two people, for example, versus having a deep connection, for example, would be.

Eliza (22:32)
Yeah, you know, trauma bonding, you know, I think of that as like in abusive relationships. And so it's, you know, when things things are good, they're really good. And when they're bad, they're really bad. But they're really good kind of buoys people through the really bad. And I think that to me is a lot about power and control, like in a way that the relationship with Shane and Ilya.

is not. Like in the bedroom, yes, directly about power and control. But outside of that, it's not. And so to me, that's what makes it like distinct. Like it's intense and they hurt each other's feelings and they're messy and they're young and they're learning how to do this. But neither one of them is trying to assert power over the other in a fundamental way.

Declan (23:20)
And neither of them are trying to weaponize each other's trauma against one another at any point in time, which is also a big thing. ⁓ especially when they become vulnerable of one another. I think. Ilya could, Ilya in particular is in a position where he could really take advantage of Shane because there's a naivety Shane that is very obvious from the first moment you meet him. Like the fact that he goes up to try to talk to this guy who's sitting there smoking, he is giving.

Eliza (23:28)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (23:50)
the dirtiest look that you can imagine. He is disinterested, but Shane is not discouraged and immediately tells you that this person doesn't quite pick up on social cues the same way as everyone else does. And that leaves Shane open to quite the particular vulnerabilities that Ilya could exploit if he wanted to, but he doesn't, which speaks to his character. And it becomes a more equal relationship than

towards the end of the series whenever Ilya is being emotionally vulnerable with Shane. He's giving Shane information that he hasn't shared with anyone outside of his family before. And that creates more of a balance between them. think there is a moment of change where that balance shifts to something more equal. Whenever Ilya makes that phone call in Russia to Shane, I think that's whenever their relationship turns into something that is a partnership rather than just

⁓ this very intense dramatic back and forth that they have going on and puts a lot more power in Shane's hands at that point.

Silvan (24:59)
Yeah, and so in a way to Declan's point, can that intensity almost be mistaken for intimacy in some situations?

Eliza (25:10)
Hmm

Sure. I think definitely. mean, especially like the kind of intensity of their sexual experiences, like especially earlier in the show. And I think like young people who ultimately don't have a lot of sexual experience. mean, Ilya has like more sexual experience with women, but he's only been with one man before Shane, which I think is so funny. Like in that first episode, he's like, what? I'm like, Shane's like, an expert. OK, cool. Good.

But they're both actually pretty inexperienced from the very beginning. ⁓ And so I think when, you know, before they didn't know what they were missing as far as emotional intimacy. ⁓ So it can be, I think, very easy to ⁓ conflate sexual intensity with emotional intimacy. And then you have like Declan was speaking to earlier, the end of episode two, the scene in Vegas.

the very cold behavior where it's like, actually this wasn't intimacy at all. It was just intensity. And I think what you were saying, Declan, about the scene in Russia, because yes, Ilya was confessing even if Shane didn't know, but what Shane was doing was showing up, right? Ultimately, is, I think, emotional intimacy is showing up. Even he didn't know what was going on. He couldn't understand him.

Declan (26:32)
Mm.

Eliza (26:40)
He knew he needed to talk. Shane knew Ilya needed to talk. He showed up for that. that was so, Douglinton, I think you're so right that that's like a turning point.

Declan (26:53)
a very boy friend thing to do. it is like, there is nothing like if you immediately had a bad day, the first thing you want to do is just run to your partner about it. And that is sort of just what happened. And from that point on their relationship, it becomes almost like more positive, like they seem to have more positive interactions with one another. The next time we see them, they're skidding on the ice together. They're playing against each other, but they're not being

Eliza (26:56)
Yeah.

Declan (27:23)
cold or confrontational, they're loving it. They're absolutely loving the excitement of being able to play with each other. And I actually really love that that was captured in the show that these two love hockey, but they particularly love playing against each other. They're both competitive. The rivalry is real in a sense. It's just not full of all this emotional baggage. think then having this moment of, you know,

Shane having been able to be there for Ilya and then immediately Shane is hospitalized and then Ilya has a chance then to be there for Shane. He puts a little bit of risk in here. He risks exposing their relationship or the perception of their relationship by showing up to that hospital room. But he does it anyway because he needs to be there for Shane in that moment in time. And it's just a lovely sort of exchange that shows the change and the evolution of their relationship, I think.

Eliza (28:23)
and I'm thinking too of like when you're talking about like on before the hit on the ice, when there's like that little scene when they're talking to each other before and it is very boyfriendy, they're just talking about their plans. There's like no emotion, like they're bantering, but they're not, there's no emotion in their voices. Like Ilya calls him brave and then Shane says like, F you, but he says it so like, just like F you. Like he doesn't mean it. This is just how we talk. They're just like making their plans for after the game.

⁓ I hadn't thought about it, but it is a very boyfriend. I thought about that scene a lot. I thought it was very sweet that they weren't battling each other. ⁓ But yeah, very boyfriendy. What are we doing later? Where are we going to go to dinner? What's the plan? ⁓ Well, in front of everyone.

Declan (28:49)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (29:08)
Yeah, and in a way, sort of what you were also talking to, Declan, was this emotional familiarity and how that creates a sense of safety as well.

Eliza (29:20)
Hmm

Silvan (29:21)
I was curious as to how defense mechanisms play into this relationship or into the heated rivalry universe. Are there any particular defense mechanisms that show up for you that are quite strong in the TV show at least?

Eliza (29:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I think, well, you know, kind of, to me, the clearest example is in the club scene when Ilya is like dancing and like all over this woman ⁓ because he knows Shane can see it. ⁓ I don't think, you know, I think Shane goes and like stands and stares. I don't know that he expected that, but like that's his defensiveness of like, no, fine. You have a girlfriend.

It's fine. Everything's fine. You know, you don't, you know, we're nothing, essentially, right? Like, just reinforcing when Shane ran after the tuna melts. But I think that's just such a clear, I mean, Ilya was also like, this is also within his character, like, he's known to go to clubs and hook up with girls or dance with girls. Like, that's very normal for him. But like, this was very, like spiteful.

And so I think that's like the first thing I think of when I think of like the clear defense mechanisms. He's like, I'm fine. I'm totally fine. And we all know like he's not fine at all. Neither of them.

Declan (30:44)
Mm.

think that occurs in our times with Ilya as well. think the whole being really sort of aggressive and insulting towards the other hockey players as well is another form of that coming out where he feels the need to try to insult people. He wears this mask of someone who is disliked sort of universally in the league for being overly cocky and unnecessarily confrontational.

But again, that was just him wearing a mask. It's just a self-defense mechanism because he doesn't want to be perceived as weak in any way. And he doesn't want to be seen as vulnerable, I think is a better way of putting it. So he puts on this aggressive sort of pose instead. And the only person that seems to see through it really is Shane. But I suppose that's sort of what makes him work a little bit is because Shane sort of

slips past the defenses pretty easily at times and while Ilya does try to push him out and put the defenses back up, Shane has a persistence that never seems to go away and ultimately it ends up with the two then together. So thank God for Shane's persistence.

Silvan (32:15)
Yeah, and in a way I was going to ask like what would it have taken for each of them to get past their own defense mechanisms?

Declan (32:25)
episodes.

Eliza (32:27)
Yeah, six episodes. Exactly. Exactly. Because they didn't really get past them until I would argue until the scene on the couch. They were still like, I mean, and I think a lot of this also comes down to like, they have very different communication styles, right? Shane, as an autistic person needs clear, blunt communication. Like we see this, one of my very favorite scenes is the bar in Tampa Bay.

where Ilya is trying to figure out if he still has a girlfriend and Shane's just like, my parents aren't here. Like, what are you up to? Like, he's just not picking it up, like, at all. And then Ilya, you know, I would maybe argue from his own trauma, ⁓ is very guarded. ⁓ He does things out specifically. And, you know, what you're saying, Declan, just now, I think about wearing the mask, I think relates to this, right? Because when you think about Ilya, like, he's such a larger than life character.

Declan (33:10)
Mm-hmm.

Eliza (33:22)
But this is a character who immigrated to a new country when he was 18 years old, didn't know any, like he asks in the little gem scene, like how's Boston? Never even seen Boston before. ⁓ He has pretty good English when he moves to America, but like it's not where he wants it to be. He's literally supporting his family back home. Like his brother has stored it up the entire bonus, which I think what probably would have been like, I looked it up maybe like a hundred thousand dollars or something like that.

In 2008, I might be off on that. That's kind of the best I could figure out. like he's supporting his family back home. He's very vulnerable, but he like has the emotional skills to figure out that he needs to wear that mask. ⁓ But I think so, but his communication style is in that way so guarded and it wasn't until they were on the couch and he says like, no, listen, I don't want that.

Declan (34:09)
Mm-hmm.

Eliza (34:19)
problem to go away, that they were finally able to understand each other. They were talking past each other the whole time. They were close enough, but I think for me, that's the moment where they actually got each other.

Declan (34:34)
And I think Sylvan, we mentioned this in a previous episode as well, that these two will literally do anything but say exactly what they're feeling. Like they will dance around it as much as they possibly can. They are both so afraid of the other person hurting them that they just refuse at all to give any sort of, ⁓ ground to allow the other to sort of step up and give the opportunity to either.

Eliza (34:45)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (35:03)
say that they want them or say that they don't want them. And I think you're right in that sofa scene is Ilya finally being the one to go, well, it's a problem. I don't want to go away as in I never want you to go away. I want you in my life for good. And that is exactly what Shane needed to hear from the very beginning of the show when they first started this thing.

And now that he has clear instruction, what's the first thing he does? He plans their future. That's his immediate thought because he now knows there's a future and that's exactly what he does. He wakes up in the morning, he has a plan, he knows what they're doing, they're setting up the foundation. And yeah, it's just this moment of change which just sweeps the episode down from the, until the end.

Silvan (36:01)
Yeah, it's such a beautifully cathartic moment in a way. And I was thinking about the humor in the show, Eliza. And given your background, I want to get your take on how humor is used in the show, but not just in the show in general, but how humor is used specifically coupled with the vulnerability in the show. Because I think there's a whole episode we can do on humor and the show. Like, my god.

Eliza (36:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

We're sure.

Silvan (36:30)
I'll have like 17 pages of notes on that alone. But how is humor sort of coupled with vulnerability in the show, do you think?

Eliza (36:32)
Yeah. So wait.

So ultimately, laughter is ⁓ a release of tension, right? That's why sometimes we laugh in situations that are not funny. ⁓ Laughter is also ⁓ a social experience, right? Like maybe you're like, I don't know, scrolling TikTok or something at home and things are funny. And you're like, I know that's funny, but I'm not laughing. But if you're in a group of people, you might laugh. It's also like this kind of like the social ape

part of our brains that's like checking is everything okay? Is everything okay? So when you ratchet up the tension and then release it with humor, it's ⁓ a relief, if that makes sense.

Silvan (37:24)
Yeah.

Declan (37:28)
That's probably why they humour in particular parts of the show. Like when it's most tense typically, like the scene at the kitchen table is a perfect example of that. Shane is now having to explain to his parents how he came out and Ilya is dropping one-liners left and right. We are lovers. No, don't say that. That's gross. Like all these little moments happen whenever everything is at its most awkward and tense.

Eliza (37:28)
And so.

Declan (37:57)
And I think it just it perfectly sort of it's also an alleviation for the audience as well, because they're like they're you're so emotionally invested with these guys at this point that you're now feeling everything that they're feeling in a lesser sense. But you can still amplify so strongly with what's going on that you're tense. You're feeling it up here. Like your shoulders are like that. I'm like, oh, my God, what's going to happen? And then earlier coming in and.

dropping that line is just so funny. And it's just like, okay, so we can, we can relax a little bit. It's going to be a bit lighter than we thought it was going to be. ⁓ But yeah, Jacob Tierney has a really good knack for whenever he wants to use humor in the show.

Silvan (38:41)
Yeah, in a way I was thinking about sort of conversations we've had about sort of the balance between the heavier moments and bringing in lighter moments afterwards. And I was thinking about sort of, you know, you were talking earlier, Liza, about we use laughter as almost to release tension. And I'm wondering if there were any scenes in particular, any moments in the show where, you know,

Eliza (39:02)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (39:08)
We laugh when maybe the scene doesn't call for it or the intention isn't there, for example. I'm trying to rack my brain in thinking of any moments like that.

Eliza (39:15)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I think the one that comes to mind is like the scene in room 1221 where Ilya wants to have penetrative sex, Shane is not ready. And I think a lot of people I have seen kind of people talk about that where they feel like he is teasing Shane. And I don't think he is. I think he's asking like he's recognizing he's uncomfortable. He's reassuring him that it's OK, that they, of course, can stop at whatever point.

⁓ His questions about Shane's thing are, I think, clarifying questions. They're funny clarifying questions, but I don't think he was trying to be funny. I think he was like trying to figure out, so he had a mental image of him for himself to take with him after they leave. So I think people think that scene is very funny, but I actually think it's very poignant. Like, Ilya is just like, of course, of course we're not going to do anything you want to do. ⁓ Everything's fine. He's like being reassuring. So.

I think that's like the one that comes to mind where people, and it is funny and cute, but he wasn't trying to tease him. He was being, I think there's this like also thing through the show where Ilya is just being sincere in so many ways. And because he is known to be a menace and he's known to chirp and people are reading what he says in that way, but he's actually just being like actually sincere and people aren't seeing that. ⁓ Whether within the universe of the show or like sometimes I think it's the audience.

Silvan (40:46)
I think you're so right on that. And in a way, the line that Ilya says, like, Hollander, you are having panic attack. The first viewing, when I watched the first time, I was like, ⁓ he's having a panic attack. Shit. The second time I was like, that's kind of funny. And then third time I was like, I don't know where I stand with this, but that makes complete sense. How...

Eliza (41:05)
Yeah, think he was

like noticing he was having a panic attack and he was like, it's okay, we're fine here. Right? Like it kind of an echo of like that scene at the dining table where he's like, you're good here, it's fine. Yeah, of course, if you don't have penetrative sex, we're not gonna have penetrative sex, you're fine. So it's an early echo of that soothing that he's able to do much more skillfully by the end.

Yeah, so yeah, I think he was being sincere the whole time. And people think he was trying to be funny. He was just like showing up for this guy who he ultimately at this point doesn't know very well.

Declan (41:40)
It's important as well that, you know, English is Ilya's second language. There are certain, like, sort of humorous ways in which a native English speaker, like, says certain words, use sarcasm, like double entendre, like use all these different little things to communicate humor that Ilya wouldn't fully be aware of. So if I take up to Ilya's...

In some places he is using sort of Ilya's ignorance of the English language to tell a joke in a way by making it seem like it's him doing it in a deliberate way, but he's not actually, this is just him. This is his understanding or him trying to grasp an understanding of a situation by like just asking an innocent question, which might seem a bit obvious to us watching, but.

Eliza (42:19)
Hmm.

Declan (42:36)
Yeah, I think it's definitely it's played around with a little bit. But I also do like that he. Had that moment that press conference when I chair Ilya and then Ilya has been asked all these questions and even for someone that is good at communicating publicly and publicly speaking, the idea of trying to do it in a different language would scare the shit out of me. So I like that he takes the moment to be like.

Oh, this is hard. Like, this is really hard. Like, how would you even like translate all that in your head and then try to respond back whenever you've just been given four or five different questions, the answer. And then having Shane take that moment to like step in and be like, else I'm going to save you here because that was way too much. I like that moment. I like the way that language is sort of played around with in terms of Ilya as well. I think Jacob Tierney.

sort of does a lot of nice things with it to sort of reflect the struggle that Ilya has as well whenever he's trying to fit in in this different culture, in this different world from what he's used to. And it all relates back to the differences between the Western world and Russia.

Silvan (43:54)
Yeah, and as somebody who speaks multiple languages, I don't think I could have done what the character of Ilya did in that press conference, because the way you have to translate in your head quickly and make and the way it comes out, it just, it's tough. It really is.

Eliza (44:10)
And I think in the book, Shane is sitting there thinking like, this is a really dumb question and it's really complicated. Like he wasn't confused, but he was like annoyed that how complicated the reporter made the question. think that's like part in the book, part of the way he was like, I'll, I'll step in from here. But he was like annoyed. He was like, what is this guy even asking?

Declan (44:23)
Yeah.

Silvan (44:32)
This is how I feel when influencers are allowed to interview celebrities at the Oscars and stuff like that. I'm like, ask them a proper question. Like, come on. And like, don't get me started on Call Me Daddy. Don't, don't. Like the podcast. Like, girl, you need to go back to school. But I'm thinking of your position as a standup comic, ⁓ Eliza. And.

Declan (44:37)
Thank

Eliza (44:58)
Yeah.

Silvan (45:01)
Are there any parallels between like your stand-up comedy for example and like emotional vulnerability for example?

Eliza (45:09)
Yeah, you know, I was thinking about that since I knew you wanted to ask about it. And it's really, I think there has been since maybe like the 90s and like this kind of alt comedy style, this push in comedy for things that at least feel true. Right. Like if you look at the history of comedy, you know, there's a lot of people who had, I mean, and there are fewer today, but people who have acts that's like, this is clearly fake. Right. Like Anthony Duzzlenik.

with his one liners. ⁓ That is absolutely 100 % a character. But for the most part, I guess at least I can say speaking to American stand up, I've watched some Australians, some English stuff from Edinburgh. There are differences there, but yeah, there's this expectation that you are being vulnerable on stage. And yes, and it's very controlled.

⁓ I, when if I'm on stage and I'm talking about something that might be like shocking or feel vulnerable to someone else, it's because I've thought it through and I'm sharing exactly as much as I want to share. ⁓ And so in some ways there is like an artifice there. Like the way I tell a story on stage may or may not be aligned with how I tell it to my best friend. ⁓ So yeah, so I do, spend a lot of time thinking about.

And you're playing with the tension there too, right? Like there are times when I've been working out a joke and I said, it's like too far. Like it feels very real and like I'm okay with saying it, but everyone like feels too bad to laugh. ⁓ I live, I will say, think that partly is I live in Portland, Oregon. And so wonderful, wonderful comedy town. You have to write really well here, but I get more ⁓ awes on stage. Like,

Declan (46:50)
Good.

Eliza (47:05)
than I do like booze and I would rather a boo any day. Like do not feel sorry for me. It's just very tenderhearted place which is beautiful in so many ways. But when I'm on stage, I'm like, if I'm saying it, it's because I want you to laugh, not because I want you to feel bad.

Silvan (47:20)
And so if you had an opener to your comedy show about heated rivalry, what might that look like?

Eliza (47:23)
So, yeah.

Yeah, well, I can answer this very accurately because I did a Heated Rivalry themed show about a week ago, actually. So I started out by saying that I was here to represent the middle-aged women who've never been kissed that way community, who make up a lot of the fans of the show. Weird Legion. And ⁓ then I'm wearing a t-shirt that said, I'm coming to the cottage.

Declan (47:50)
you

Eliza (47:55)
And I said, you know, that's of course the iconic end of episode five, but then I put a post-it note on. So then it said, I'm coming at the cottage for episode six. So that's how I started it out.

Declan (48:06)
You

Silvan (48:10)
I cannot wait if I ever get the chance to come over to one of your shows. mean, judging from your reels and your TikToks alone, like I, and you talked a little bit about when you watch something and maybe you don't laugh out loud because you're on your own rather than being with other people, but I literally laugh out loud when I watch some of your videos genuinely. And it's a shame because no one's around me to like, I'm like, this is funny, right? This is really good.

Eliza (48:32)
thank you.

Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. It was like just this really beautiful. think I was maybe before we were recording, I was talking about this like beautiful kind of connection where I've been, you know, making videos. I've been a standup for, I started standup technically before I started being a trauma therapist. So that was the same year. ⁓ so I've been doing standup for, ⁓ seven years. Yeah. Seven years now. ⁓ and I've been trying to do kind of like the internet, like the,

It's almost more like sketch comedy or like talk to camera videos for a few years. ⁓ and then, you know, kind of text based like on threads, which is like Twitter, which is, think where I really, I'm a writer. It's like where I really shine. So between that and then my love of romance, ⁓ and just like the kind of, I feel like I did get in pretty early with the show. I think I started making videos like maybe just before or just after episode three. So there was that part of it too, but it's this really wonderful confluence of all these things I like.

or that I actually really love and I finally got to put them together. And it's been just so cool to see people respond to that. ⁓

Silvan (49:46)
Completely.

I don't have threads, but I think you've posted some of your threads on Instagram where I've seen it. Can I read a couple because I genuinely love these. And this is not just because you're here with Polly, but one of the threads was ⁓ the scene where they're on the couch. ⁓ I think it's a tuna melt sort of episode. And, your thread is two bros chilling on a couch, five feet apart because they're not gay.

Eliza (49:50)
No.

Yeah. ⁓

You

Silvan (50:15)
Loved it. Loved it. If I can, put the picture up on the video so people can see that.

Eliza (50:20)
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, because yeah, there's a screenshot of them like when they were sitting pretty far apart. Yeah, yeah, like there is something about in that text based medium of being really self-referential with the internet that people respond to for sure. But I saw that I was like, that's what's happening.

Silvan (50:38)
Totally, totally. And I'm wondering, like, if you were to have one of the characters do what you do on stage, who would be the most likely person to really nail it on that stage? And who would bomb?

Eliza (50:44)
Mm.

and who would bomb? Okay, also with bomb. I think Ilya is really funny and like really funny in a second language, which is wild, but I think his humor is the kind where it's like the guy at the bar, like where you're all sitting there together and you tell a story and it's really funny there, but on stage it's like not. ⁓ And I think, let me think. I think maybe.

Maybe Kyle the bartender. think he has like secret depths. I think we'll get to know him more later, I think. But I could see doing well on stage.

Declan (51:35)
Yeah.

Silvan (51:39)
Declan is doing so well, you can't see it. Declan does so well at restraining himself. I can see his face and he's done lot of episodes. And it's because we get so many comments if we spoil stuff for like other books and stuff. So thank you, Declan. I appreciate it.

Declan (51:39)
I agree.

You're welcome.

Silvan (52:00)
Adele's funny though!

Eliza (52:02)
She's very funny. Have you ever seen that? She dressed up as yourself with a lookalike contest. Have you seen this? Yeah.

Declan (52:03)
Adele's funny, yeah. That's the I ever.

yeah,

the Graham Norton show, that was amazing. So, so funny. Done clever.

Eliza (52:15)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (52:16)
And

having been to two separate Adele concerts, I think she makes a really good stand up. don't know, obviously you're a professional, like from my layman's perspective, her commentary is just naturally funny. And I don't know how scripted or prepared that is, but I feel like I'm going to a comedy show interlaced by just her singing some songs.

Eliza (52:39)
Love that. That's amazing. Yeah, I don't doubt. Yeah, maybe she's really great off the top of her head or maybe she's very good at making it seem like that's the magic of comedy, right? Is like making it seem like it's all happening right now. So I could see her being skilled, very skilled at that.

Silvan (52:54)
Yeah, her and Barbara Streisand, which makes me sound so gay right now, but I'm okay with that.

Eliza (52:59)
Yeah, I can see Babs being pretty funny.

Silvan (53:02)
She is, she's hilarious. played Hyde Park in London a few years ago. again, Barbara Streisand just talked her through a concert set. It was great. ⁓ so they do this summertime series and they always get like really popular people to play. And they usually have like someone who's very current, but they also have like a legacy act and Barbara was the legacy act. that was, yeah. So was interesting to watch. Yeah.

Eliza (53:12)
Wow. Was that like in Hyde Park or is there like a menu there? just in the park?

for.

Very cool.

I've been to London like one time and yeah, Hyde Park is just I'm like, have to go to Hyde Park. You know, it's so historically important. So I'm like trying to like put it there in my mind. That's wild. Yeah, Portland does that not. Yeah, we do summer concerts like outside there's that so but not not in Hyde Park. That's special.

Silvan (53:52)
Yeah,

and so I want to think about sort of you as a therapist, right? If Shane walks into therapy, do you have a formulation for Shane or what's your thought process for Shane?

Eliza (54:08)
yeah, no, the autism 100%. Like he had nobody in his life seems to have any idea. ⁓ But I see someone whose life is highly regimented, ⁓ very tied to routine, ⁓ difficult with social cues, right? Like they even say like the first thing you hear about him is like the kind of hockey podcast in the very first episode. And they're like, not the most sociable, right? Like, that's like being dropped right there. ⁓ Pretty flat affect difficulty understanding other people's emotions.

not the best relationship with food, ⁓ which, know, could certainly doesn't have to be autism, but many autistic people, ⁓ have difficult relationships with food for various reasons. ⁓ yeah, that's where I'm going first. ⁓ is like, does he know, ⁓ how are we going to talk about this?

Silvan (54:59)
Yeah, and we did a whole other episode on the psychology of it and we sort of hypothesized what modalities we would even use for some of these characters. But I'm wondering conversely then if Shane walks in, like what do you notice immediately about Shane in a therapy room?

Eliza (55:08)
Hello.

Mm. The kind of he's very tight, like not just like muscular, but just like his again, that pretty flat affect his emotional reactions aren't very big. His gestures aren't very big. ⁓ Probably the eye contact. I think, you know, that's kind of most like I think you can track his like ⁓ can't think of the right word, like

discomfort with eye contact kind of through the show, but we see it most explicitly like in the scene with his mom at the end, ⁓ where he's like throwing his head back and like to me, I think Hudson Williams has said his father is autistic. And so he's able to, ⁓ he brought a lot of his father into the role. ⁓ So yeah, that's I think probably the eye contact would be a big clue. Or last year. Yeah.

Silvan (56:13)
Yeah, absolutely.

Declan, can I throw you a curveball? And we've not prepared for this. You know I love Rose. You know I love Rose. But what would your sort of formulation on Rose be if she were to come into your therapy room?

Eliza (56:22)
no.

Mm.

Declan (56:35)
I don't think Rose would have any like ⁓ presenting issues per se. I would say she would come to therapy to sort of offload a little bit. She has a very stressful and complex career that puts her under a lot of like scrutiny in the public. maybe a look into maybe self image if that's something that's bothering her or pressure to perform literally. ⁓ But I don't think Rose

is in any dire need of therapy based on her emotional intelligence, the way that she accepts rejection, the way in which she maturely handles a breakup in the way that she did and is able to set aside romantic feelings to, you know, go forward with like feelings of friendship and connection there instead. Yeah, I mean, I would do sort of like humanistic.

her, let her sort of tell her own story, what she wants to talk about, and if there's anything that's truly bothering her or that she wants to explore. So definitely something more exploratory because she just seems like a very well-rounded and put-together individual for someone that is in such an interesting job that would leave her open to a lot of vulnerabilities, I think, but she seems to be quite stable.

Silvan (58:03)
despite 80 % of her boyfriends being gay.

Eliza (58:06)
Yes.

Declan (58:07)
And she was still accepting about

the whole thing, it's clearly not traumatized her.

Eliza (58:12)
Right, like until she updated the percentage in real time. Like, was having at least like 80. Yeah, but yeah, I always thought that was like really special about Rose when the way she handled the rejection where she was just like, ⁓ okay, this guy's clearly gay. Like I'm great. I'm wonderful. ⁓ If this isn't working, it's not me. It's, you know, what's going on? He's such a great, wonderful guy otherwise.

Declan (58:15)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

Hello.

Eliza (58:40)
not trying to hurt me what's going on and like she's the one who put it to her and was

Declan (58:43)
Yeah. It's not me, it's

definitely him.

Eliza (58:47)
Yeah.

Silvan (58:48)
But she

is a catch, like holy moly, you know? And being an actress, I'm sure she's used to having rejection.

Declan (58:51)
She's so charismatic.

Eliza (58:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's such a good point. ⁓

Silvan (59:01)
Like you audition

your entire life. What you're hearing is no most of the time.

Declan (59:07)
Yeah.

Eliza (59:07)
Yeah, such a good

point.

Declan (59:12)
What about you Sylvan, is there anything you would do different with Rose?

Silvan (59:17)
I wanna be best friends with Rose. Like I would find it really hard to switch off from therapist mode. I'm not gonna lie. Like we would just gab about like TikTok, honestly. Like we would just share TikToks with each other. I won't do this in real life if someone's judging me, of course, please stop. In a hypothetical situation, I could see myself being very much friends with Rose. But then I have this very natural affinity to Rose. I don't know why.

Eliza (59:30)
Thank

Declan (59:36)
Yeah. ⁓

Silvan (59:46)
Maybe that's for another episode of Eliza

Eliza (59:49)
I

would also argue that spending a session gabbing or what looks like gabbing, ⁓ is, can be very therapeutic and attachment building and rapport building. So maybe not the trading of TikToks that I maybe draw the line there, but I've had many, many sessions with people that if anyone else listened, it would sound like we were just like yapping, but we were building trust and learning more and all of those things.

Declan (1:00:13)
Thanks.

Eliza (1:00:19)
So just saying. Yeah. think I heard people, therapists online talk about like, or maybe clients say that's like either trauma days or gossip days with their therapist, but the gossip days help buoy the trauma days, you know.

Declan (1:00:19)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (1:00:21)
Thank you for validating

that. appreciate it.

you're so right. Like I have my own personal therapy and I know what kind of session I'm going to go into depending on what mood I'm in, how much I've slept, what my emotional capacity is. so can very much, there is this duality whether we're going to go in heavy or we're staying light today, for example. And the light doesn't mean it's not important.

Eliza (1:00:56)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Right. Yeah, no, the light helps hold together. If it was all hard, mean, certainly there are hard days of therapy. It's like not fun. But if it was all hard, like that's not sustainable for anybody.

Silvan (1:01:14)
Yeah. And so thinking about the show in general, then, Eliza, is there anything from your trauma related lens that you were like, they got this so right? Or conversely, I might I might have thought about this in a different way.

Eliza (1:01:26)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm, sure. I think the dissociation. I think not a lot of people know about dissociate. It's becoming more people are becoming more aware, but not a lot of people know about dissociation as a trauma symptom. And it was there from the very first episode, like Ilya was showing it. ⁓ So I think they really, really got that right. ⁓ Like, again, the the the foundation is all there. But

Jacob Tierney trust us to see it. And as far as someone getting it wrong, no, I don't know if there's anything that like really pinged my radar. was like, this isn't right. I'll think about it, but I don't, nothing really like threw me off.

Declan (1:02:18)
I think it's very similar. I noticed the sort of dissociation as well. I noticed Shane's ⁓ sort of it's the way you described it as like closeness, like the way in which he sort of expresses himself or doesn't express himself, which is more accurate to say. ⁓

Eliza (1:02:39)
Mm-hmm.

Declan (1:02:40)
the way in which he sort of carries himself, I immediately noticed that aspect of his personality and sort of zeroed in on that. ⁓ But in terms of like, you know, something that was represented poorly, I think we kind of need to give it to the showrunners that there wasn't really anything I thought, no, you've not done this right. This is off. And you can see set up as well.

for obviously storylines that they're gonna run into in the future. But yeah, I think there is, there's more to come.

Eliza (1:03:12)
Mm-hmm.

Silvan (1:03:20)
Yeah, you're right. I really have appreciated, at least just from the TV show perspective, this layering and the sprinkling and just trusting the audience with it and almost gifting the audience with it. It's like, now you take it, make your interpretations because let's be honest, the fandom have lots of interpretations and very different arguably as well. But I like that.

Eliza (1:03:42)
Yeah.

Silvan (1:03:47)
a lot of the fandom have been able to be very tolerant with the differences in those interpretations. And I've appreciated even reading some of the comments from some of the listeners about, I think you got this wrong, or I think this is what I got from this scene. And I'm like, this is great for me to read

Eliza, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and really lending your expertise.

not just as a trauma therapist but also the comedy aspect of it as being a comedian and looking at some of the humor. I've so enjoyed doing this recording with you and you've brought such a nuanced analysis to things that Declan and I hadn't really talked about before.

Eliza (1:04:33)
Well, I've had such a wonderful time and yeah, just being able to talk about, I think it says so much about the show and the people who created it that like we're able to talk about it and find all of this nuance. Certainly y'all have said things that I'm like, I never even considered that. Like there's just so much to like dig into, which I think is so fun and beautiful, but I've had so much fun. This has been really enjoyable for me. So yeah, hopefully the listeners too.

Declan (1:05:00)
Yeah, we've had a really great time just getting your perspective as well, particularly as a trauma therapist, because you pointed out like three or four things tonight that I hadn't even considered before. And then obviously I'm applying it to the show, but I'm also thinking of it for my own practice as well, where I'm like, I could, I could use that. Like I know someone that will really benefit from something like that. So it's been really, really useful for me as well in an educational sense. So thank you so much for.

for sharing all your experience and for taking the time to sit with us.

Silvan (1:05:36)
Yeah, this has like been two hours of supervision really.

Declan (1:05:39)
Hahaha!

Eliza (1:05:39)
Honestly, yeah.

So like, thank you for saying that, Devin. That really is special to me that when, ⁓ you know, that's how, that's how our field works, right? Like we pass on the knowledge to each other so that we can pass that on to clients who then can pass that on to other people in their lives. Like it's like planting these seeds. So it's really meaningful to hear you say that.

Silvan (1:06:01)
Yeah. And so I'm wondering where can people find you on socials, Eliza?

Eliza (1:06:06)
Sure, yeah, pretty much any social network is Eliza Isn't Funny, which ⁓ my brand is irony. I should have thought about this seven years ago, this is what we're stuck with now. But yeah, just at Eliza Isn't Funny on all of the socials.

Declan (1:06:14)
Thank you.

Silvan (1:06:22)
Wonderful. I'll put all of that in the description box so people can sort of find you. And please do check out Eliza on threads because, my goodness, like some of the threads that have been passed on to me is how I got introduced to your comedy and ⁓ chef's kiss, honestly.

Eliza (1:06:39)
Thank you to those listeners who facilitate this conversation.

Declan (1:06:44)
I think that's us wrapping up then folks. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been such a great discussion and we're so excited to bring more content as well. But let us know what you thought of this episode. What did you think of the discussions that we have with Eliza and how her perspective sort of changed the way that you looked at things in the show ⁓ or just any general questions that you have for me and Selvin as well. We had a really great time. Don't be afraid to share, subscribe.

If you know any Heat of Rivalry fans, obviously share the show with them as well. yeah, we will be looking forward to seeing you next time and we'll see you then.