Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome,
Lisa: Lisa.
I'm super excited to have you here with me.
I can't thank you enough.
It's so delightful and we've chatted just teeny tiny bit and, you know, I, this
promises to be a fun 20, 25, 30 minutes.
Anke: It will be, I guarantee it.
So let's just slide straight in and let people know where you're based and, you
know, what's your business with dogs?
And what, what about Cold Nose College?
It's just so adorable.
Lisa: Oh, I love that.
And again, you know, kudos to my husband and business partner who came up with that
name after, you know, many late nights.
Trying to come up with a company name.
I am located in the very western tip of North Carolina.
So, um, we are, people think, oh, you're, are you near the coast?
Like, no, it's 546 miles to the coast of North Carolina.
It's a very long, or long state, if you will.
Um, but it's rural.
It's very rural, but I'm two hours from, uh, several major cities, and
we were, Up until just about two years ago, now we have two other positive
reinforcement trainers locally, one of whom was a student of mine with the
Victoria Steel Academy, and the other went through the academy, they're both
graduates, so I'm so happy to be able to refer to them, because we only now,
at Coldwells College, Brad and I have been focusing on, uh, educating the next
generation of professional dog trainers through the Victoria Steel Academy.
Um, so, um, here at, in this office, working from home, I'm focused on my
own dog, of course, and helping him lead the best life he can possibly lead.
And I'm still focused on promoting my book, Rocket Recall, which came out,
gosh, almost three years ago now and is still doing well, but, um, we can
talk a little bit about that later.
Um, but I think my, my main mission now has been for lots of years, is making
sure that my dog and those people I touch who have a dog, that people
understand the most important thing you can do for your dog is helping them
feel physically and emotionally safe.
Because no matter what.
What we want our dogs to learn, and we all want them to learn something, they
need to learn things to live, how to, how to live in our weird human world.
But if, if anyone, dog, person, rhino, fish, I mean, if, if a being
doesn't feel safe physically and emotionally, they can't learn.
So feeling emotionally and physically safe allows us to be able to learn.
Anke: That's so true.
And it's so overlooked still,
Lisa: you know.
I think it is.
Though, I'm so thankful that VSA, the Victoria Civil Academy, you know, we're
teaching our students that there's a difference between just doing.
So, 20 years ago, I've been doing, 21 years.
How did that happen?
I now have gray hair.
I didn't when I started.
Well, maybe.
But I wanted my dog to do what I said.
I was still training with positive reinforcement, but I wanted
Sit when I say sit, lay down when I say lay down, go a mat.
Now, it's all about choice.
Or does it make sense?
Why am I asking my dog to do that?
Is that a skill that's needed?
Um, so You know, again, with feeling physically and emotionally safe,
empowering a being, dog or person, um, by giving them choice in their life is
what's critically, critically important.
Anke: Yeah, I mean, could not agree more and it's, it's something that I
got to experience with my two, I mean, the other two were, they, they came, you
know, from puppy and there's a happy go lucky, nothing ever happened to them,
so they kind of almost like they roll in a different way, but these two boys,
they had a start that you think like no puppy should have and I, I experienced
it, you know, all I could find was like train your dog to sit and train your
dog and none of it worked with them.
You know, none of it worked with them.
So where that's what got me started, like there's got to be something else.
There's something missing here.
It doesn't make sense.
So I'd be curious how, You know, what sparked your curiosity to look
beyond the commands, especially with what you just said, when you
said, well, I was training positive.
So that was a good start, you know, but what sparked you
to look in that direction?
Lisa: Well, let me go back a little bit further in history.
Um, I, Brad and I trained our first dog who came to us as a stray.
With old fashioned aversive techniques, choke collars and prong collars, we
found a trainer in Atlanta, lived in Atlanta at the time, and we
wanted our dog to be well trained.
We wanted our dog to behave.
So, we went to class and we were issued a mat, a choke chain to throw at the
dog, a prong collar, a choke collar.
and a leash.
And we were taught to use those tools very effectively and to
alpha roll our dogs when they didn't do something that we liked.
And then, um, an Australian Shepherd came into our home.
We had longed for an Aussie.
We'd moved to the, the mountains by then.
We had lots of space.
We knew The breed needed a lot of mental stimulation and exercise.
We'd done our research.
And so Carter joined our home and I wanted to do agility because
there were no classes around me.
I bought books and in the books, I learned about positive reinforcement.
Oh my gosh, this is what my dad used on prison inmates.
He was his chief psychology, chief psychologist at the
prison system he worked in.
And I started using it with Carter.
And it's like, oh my gosh.
Oh my gosh, I have immediate buy in, I have the most enthusiastic
learner, he's happy, he wants to train with me, I don't have to feel
bad because I feel like I'm hurting my dog, and the training's effective.
And fast forward a few months, maybe six or eight months later, we
took our first professional agility lesson, and two days later he was
hit by a car and tragically killed.
Anke: Oh my god.
Lisa: So, um, that's, you'll learn about that in the, in my next book, but I,
I went into a three month depression, didn't know it, didn't know that's what
I was in at the time, but um, clawed myself out and said I want to learn
to help people, want other, I want people to learn this a different way.
I want to help other people learn, but it didn't mean I
was going to be a dog trainer.
I just wanted to like maybe help our shelter and help friends.
Well, be careful, you know, when you set intentions.
Be careful what you
Anke: wish for.
Lisa: Really delivered.
So I already had that.
But what caused me, even though I was using positive reinforcement,
I think it was just evolving and trying to understand why am I really
asking these things of my dog.
Um, and because I was learning more about choice and who cares if your dog stands
when you might have asked them to sit.
You know, maybe we're just asking them to, to hang out.
I'll say stay, my cue is wait, but hang out there for a minute until
I, you know, ask you to move because maybe I'm opening the gate or I'm
doing something that would make it not safe for my dog, but standing's fine.
The dog doesn't need to sit.
Do I care if he moves a lot?
So I think it's just probably relaxing everything in our life,
including my own pressure on myself.
to be or do a certain way based on what professional dog training might
have said you need to be, right?
Anke: For sure.
So
Lisa: anything taken to the extreme can be maybe not the best.
So, so thankfully Brad and I both, we've been on this evolution together
through our whole life and career.
And we're, we both feel that way.
And I, I think in general, um, You know, child education, and
I've not had children, so I can't speak to this personally, I think
it's moved that way as well.
Um, so, thinking, thinking about using positive reinforcement with my dogs
has not only changed my dog's life, and feeling emotionally safe, and
physically safe, and giving choice, but that bleeds into human relationships.
And doesn't this world need more of that in general?
Anke: For sure.
So, I mean, this idea of a dog needs to feel safe before they can learn anything
that makes all the sense in the world.
What are things that you, you would suggest people, like if
I'm saying like, okay, all right.
It's the first time I heard about this.
How do you get started?
How do I, how do I, you know, like, what does that even mean?
What does that look like?
I mean, I know when I feel safe or I don't, you know, like
physically and or emotionally.
So how will I know whether I don't feel safe?
And because we also know they're kind of very good at hiding their distress,
so it's not always that easy to tell how do I know whether my dog feels safe.
And if I get a sense that my dog might not feel safe, then what are things
that I can do to, to help them relax?
Lisa: Brilliant, brilliant questions.
So, in order to understand a person or a dog, in order to understand a being, we
have to be able to speak their language.
And, and if we can't speak to our dogs verbally, of course we can
teach them words, but if we can't speak to them, how can we understand?
Um, you know, humans, it might be neuro linguistic programming and understanding
those body cues that people are giving us.
Am I sitting back like this or am I, you know, really open?
Well, if we take the time to learn about how dogs communicate with their body, what
I call dog body language, then we, we can begin to understand their stress signals,
their appeasing signals, their fear signals, their um, You know, I believe
all aggression is based on fear, you know, because I'm going to aggress towards
something that I might be afraid of.
But taking the time to educate yourself, Lilly Chin is a great
artist who does dog body language photos and has written a great book.
There are many other resources out there, but understand how
dogs communicate with their body.
Certain signals like a paw lift could be an invitation to play or it could
mean I'm a little fearful right now.
So study that, learn that, and if you wonder, is my dog feeling safe?
Take a few breaths, observe your dog for a few moments.
If you think it's stress, move to another environment.
Look around, look around, scan the environment.
What's in the environment that might be problematic for that dog?
You may think they shouldn't have a problem with it, but really
it's all about what do they think.
So if in doubt, Leave.
If in doubt, change the environment to one that that you think your
dog might feel more comfortable
Anke: in.
And I think even that, that, that level of respect and empathy, I think it makes
all the difference that you're even asking yourself, you know, how, like, yeah, I
mean, what's that like for my dog, right?
So I think that is, that is a brilliant start.
So, you know, In terms of body language, I mean, just remembering, you know,
when I was researching all the different like, okay, how can I kind of, you know,
get my two dogs to be, you know, well, I mean, I was never sort of looking for
control or for like, you know, Obedience.
I wouldn't, I was never into that.
I wanted to communicate well enough to keep them safe.
That's really all I wanted, right?
That I could, you know, that's why the rocket call, recall, really caught my
attention because I thought that was one of the things that I was like,
you know, I want to make sure that I can call my dog and I know that,
you know, if there's a car coming, whatever, that I can rely on that,
that they'll at least stop, you know?
So, but I'd be curious to, you know, because the main message I
took away is that like there's so much conflicting stuff out there.
Do you find that even when we're talking about body language are the experts
in agreement or, you know, because I've seen a lot of things where Wow,
let's just call the spade a spade.
You know, I remember even somebody saying that the lot of the interpretation or
what it's known about animal behavior is like male researchers interpreting
a situation, you know, and what a man will say, look, there's an alpha dog
who tries to dominate the other dog.
A woman would look at this and I'm like, No, they're just trying to get on here.
So it's like, who's looking at it?
Who's describing the situation?
Might paint an entirely different picture.
Does that also apply to what's taught?
Lisa: You know, I think it can.
I think it can.
And, and I'm doing a lot of reading right now in our patriarchal society.
So that could be a whole nother conversation that I'm really not
qualified to talk about other than, you know, as women, we probably lived it.
But, um, I think truly, if you If you start with what I think are
trusted publications and trusted authors to, um, Dogwise is an
entity that carries books that are scientifically and ethically sound.
Um, at least that's, I don't think there are any that aren't focused
on that, and certainly anything on the Positively site or the Victoria
Stilwell site, you can trust.
And again, Lily Chin, who has a great book and free downloads of posters
on, for cats and dogs on her site.
So that's a perfect way to start.
But you mentioned Rocket Recall.
My book, which I keep right beside me.
Um, the, why did I write it?
How can I say that in about four sentences?
First, I wrote it to help people learn that there is a, uh, an effective,
way that keeps your dog feeling physically, emotionally safe while
you're training a life saving skill.
So that's it, life saving skill.
The first half of the book, I go into the training to behavior concepts
that underlie, that are the foundation that we can then build upon.
Not only The focus and attention or recall exercises in my book, but
anything you want to teach your dog.
So while you think, uh, do I really need recall?
Well, I think you do.
The call to come, right?
The general population may not understand the word recall, but
we're recalling a dog to us.
We're recalling a child to us.
Hey, Brad, come over here.
We're recalling, you know, a person to us.
But it's really, you know, Known as the, the Q, come.
Um, I prefer other Qs that are more fun.
My clients have chosen martini and happy hour and cookie because it's just a word.
It's just a sound to a dog.
Anke: And you don't, you also don't want to use something that you'll use all
the time every day in everyday language.
And the dog goes like, what?
Lisa: And I don't like the word come for two reasons.
One, if you've adopted a dog, you have no idea what that dog's prior
experience with that word is.
So they may have a A conditioned emotional response is not so, feeling so good to
them like, Ah, I don't like that word.
Or, it can be said in the hardest tone if we get frustrated.
GUM!
You know, who wants to come to somebody who looks scary and is speaking sternly,
so, um, yeah, so, so that first half of the book goes through all those
concepts, a tad bit of learning theory, just why, you know, why something
works or why something doesn't, um, and is a good groundwork before you
go into the recall training exercises.
And the simplest exercises are teaching your dog name recognition.
When I say my dog's name it means look at me and wait for further instruction.
I thought of this yesterday as Keaton was headed for a creek which is just
60 feet outside my office window and I didn't want him to get muddy again.
So I just said And a happy toned one, Keaton!
And he just, he'll probably come.
He just looked at me like, Huh?
What mom?
Let's go this way.
So a simple name recognition, which is so easy to teach using the, the
progressive steps in my book, can stop your dog from doing something.
Not even a recall, right?
I didn't call him to come.
It prevented him from doing it.
Launched it into the creek and prevented me from lots of mud on long hills.
So life
Anke: saving on both ends then, right?
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, so, um, so yes.
Feeling safe, physically, emotionally, feeling happy.
Um, you know, how do we know our dogs are happy?
Well, I think we know when they're joyful.
You know, and it's important to let your dog be joyful and frolic and have fun.
I talked about this just with Brad this morning.
I was thinking about an email I want to send out to our community
next week prior to Valentine's Day.
I'm like, what's, what's the number one gift you can give your dog?
And it's not tangible.
It's not a product.
It's time.
Time, it makes me cry.
Time well spent with your dog.
Our dogs are social creatures and they want nothing more to be with us.
Yet so many dogs are banished to other areas because maybe they don't
have the manners their people want.
Or if they're not, maybe that's not the case.
Maybe Their people work all day, and so they get little
interaction during the day.
I would tell you that if, if you could ask a dog, what is it that
you want more of from your human, they would say time with them.
Anke: That makes me cry too, and it's one of, it's actually one of the reason
that I had to, you know, that, I was 40 when I got my first dog because I
always wanted a dog my entire life.
You know, as a child, my parents wouldn't let me have one.
And there was always the part of me that, well, I would, would have loved
to have a dog and I understand because, you know, even as a child, it's like,
yeah, my parents were both working.
I was at school all day.
Right.
And that's always been the thing.
It's like, I don't want a dog that's alone at home all day.
Right.
So I waited until I moved to Spain, started my own business, where I
could work from home and I could have the dog around every day, all day.
And that's when I thought like, okay, I'm open.
I can have it.
I feel I can have a dog now, you know, because I think it's just not fair.
If we can't give them the life that they deserve.
Lisa: Yeah, it's, it really is a challenge to, if you have two working adults,
or you're single, uh, how, how can you make sure your dog's needs are met?
And so that's an overarching theme of feeling safe.
Enrichment, physical exercise, social enrichment, I mean, that
is really the crux of everything.
How do we meet that being's needs?
And, um, a lot of people aren't meeting their dog's needs because they just don't
understand what those needs really are.
Anke: So what are some of the most misunderstood needs that,
that You see in your work.
Lisa: I think, well, I think most people understand that
physical exercise is needed.
They don't understand that mental enrichment and mental stimulation
can be as tiring and better for your dog than physical exercise.
So if you are exercising your dog more in hopes of getting a calmer
dog, think twice about it because you're really training an athlete.
So that, that dog may need more calming enrichment, you know, time
spent with your dog, slow body massage, a lot, take a long line.
A long line to me is a 15 or 20 foot leash.
And I like the, the, the, um, material biothane because it
doesn't pick up dirt or water.
And put your dog on a long line.
Make sure you're safe.
Maybe not so great for a neighborhood.
You might need to find a non busy street.
But take your dog on a 20 minute, what I call sniffy walk or dog led walk.
The dogs see their world through their noses and it's so enriching
for them to check out pemale.
And, you know, you know, that's their social media.
is they're checking in, they're checking out who's been there, what's there, what
sex is the dog, and let them pee, let them mark, let them sniff, you know,
don't drag the, oh for God's sake, please don't drag them away from a scent.
That'd be like, for me, that would be like somebody taking an ice cream cone
out of my hand and making me leave it.
Slap your hand and then you'll have your morning coffee, I'll go slap you.
I wouldn't be very happy about that.
So, so I think that's probably the most misunderstood.
You know, though, depending on environments, we live
in a very rural area.
We unfortunately have to see dogs who are chained.
So, that dog's bottom level of the triangle, triangle, Maslow's
hierarchy, Maslow's hierarchy, those dogs don't even have that.
You know, so, it depends, it depends on where you are.
But I think general, um, pet parents, dog owners, guardians, um, all of
which I, I, you know, refer to them as periodically, is, can probably be.
Um, a balance between physical exercise and, um, mental stimulation
or, you know, mental enrichment.
Um,
Anke: yeah.
It's beautiful to see that this becomes more recognized.
It's funny because when I had like my first dog, Leo, you know, to be
honest, I thought, well, that's the only thing that makes sense to me.
You know, I would let him sniff and I'm like, yeah, okay, I won't let
you pee in the neighbor's door, you know, whatever, you know, but, but
I would definitely, I still to this day think, well, my job on this walk
is like your bodyguard, you know, so it's my job to make sure you're safe.
There's no, like, keep an eye on, you know, to make sure you're not getting
yourself in situations that, that are kind of dangerous for anybody.
Yeah.
But other than that, the purpose of the walk is for you to be able to, you
know, sniff and have a good time and, you know, and get a bit of choice, you
know, and so I will literally, and you know, the amount, but the thing is like
now I'm living in a, you know, in a beach town and it's quiet and so nobody
messes, and I also have two really big dogs now, so nobody messes with me, which
is brilliant, but when I had the little ones, the boys, it was just the amount of
Well, call it criticism I got, you know, when people go, well, you know,
you look at her, like it started from like, you know, sort of when, when
you can hear them, like, you know, when you walk past and go, look at
her being dragged along the street, you know, and that wasn't even true.
It was just, you know, I didn't have an eight foot, I had a shorter leash or
like my parents would always try this retractable one, that weren't a good
idea, but you know, But, um, you know, basically try and give them some space
and sometimes you go, oh look there's something and then I'd be after that.
So, but I mean the dog would lead, you know, and I'd be like, all
right, you know, as long as you don't drag me along the street, I'm fine.
But the amount of, like, look at her.
And then you'd go, well, I No, no, no.
You need to be the boss.
The dog can't be in front of you.
The dog needs to be beside you and you can't let them pee where they want.
And that's just never made sense to me and it feels so reassuring,
you know, now hearing people like you saying, well, actually that's,
they should get walks like that,
Lisa: you know?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I am here to tell you, thankfully, I think.
Hopefully.
That old fashioned dominance theory that's been debunked for decades and decades.
Um, uh, there's less and less of that, but I am here after 21 years of professional
dog training, living with my dogs, I'm here to tell you that your dog is
not conspiring to take over the world.
Absolutely not.
And I was thinking about this last week and I was walking because
I'm, I'm, yeah, because of all these years I've been dog trained.
I've been thinking about clients I've had in the past and there was a client I went
to see for the first time, um, had this beautiful, um, I think it was a poodle and
I was just coming in and we were beginning to talk about things and they had a few.
really minor issues, uh, that they thought were really big.
Okay, big to them.
That's important.
We need, need to address the client's needs.
They have needs too.
But, um, the man got up out of his recliner to go get something in the
other room and the dog jumped up on the, on the recliner and laid down.
He came back and said, see, see, he's being dominant.
I said, Have you ever thought, have you ever stopped to think
that that just might be more comfortable than the hardwood floors?
I never thought of that.
So
Anke: yeah, there's, I think there's still a bit of work to do, right?
I think there is, there's, it's a lot of, a lot has changed.
I think there's a lot of movement.
It feels there's quite a bit of momentum in a much nicer direction,
but, um, you know, I think there's still a bit of work to
Lisa: do.
You know, I think we'll always, there will always be that.
I think the curve, hopefully, is a little bit different, but there, there's, I'm
so, I'm so thrilled when I see people on the street, um, and of course it's
not much here because we, we're 15 miles outside of a town of 1500 people, so I
don't get to town or do city, you know, the urban, my little small town walks with
my dog much, but I'm out in other places and I'm seeing people with their dogs.
It just thrills me to see harnesses.
You know, so nothing's around their neck that could damage
their esophagus or their trachea.
Um, and I keep telling all of my students that something that would be
very good for their business And did I mention, yeah, Aspiring Dog Training
Professionals is get a little card.
I never did this.
I said I was going to do it, never did it.
So somebody else needs to do it.
Get a little bit like business shaped card.
And of course have your business information on one side of it,
but the other side have it be Um, I'll call it a click treat.
Have it be a compliment, like, Thank you for being a dog guardian today.
Thanks for being kind to your dog, however you want to phrase it.
And then when you see people doing awesome things with their dogs,
which is 99 percent of the time, Give them that positive reinforcement.
Let them know that It works for the owners too, right?
Yeah, absolutely, it does.
You know, we did, we just retired from, um, teaching a
dog training prison program.
So we spent twelve and a half years, every Thursday we were in jail.
And to see the detainees go from Maybe week three, when we start introducing the
concept on week one, and start working with dogs, and you know, helping them
understand what positive reinforcement is, and no, we're not going to use
that old fashioned stuff because most, most of them come with that from the
environments they've been raised in, um, because that's how they were raised.
It's about week three, a couple of the detainees with children will say, I
can probably use this with my children.
I can't you can, it works with people too.
And thank you Karen Pryor, Now in Heaven, who helped us understand all of that
in the book, Don't Shoot the Dog, which was written as a little management text,
not a dog trainer text, by the way.
Anke: Isn't that interesting, right?
I would Actually, I would love to have you back about that prison
experiment because I've read things about experiments like that or projects
like that, and I'm totally intrigued.
So that I would love to have you back.
Oh, yes.
I'm
Lisa: going to raise my hand to come back and I'll definitely talk about that.
It's something I love so much.
And then also, um, The next book I'm writing, which is entitled, The Death
of a Dog Changes You, um, in addition to losing Carter, um, I lost a dog at
six years old, and then in this book, um, when you, you buy it, the, your, um,
listeners will buy it, or your watchers will buy it, you'll, this is about
Kaylee, and how I worked with her, and two weeks, she was four, two weeks after
this was released, she died suddenly.
This is
Anke: heartbreaking.
Lisa: Yeah.
Yeah.
And so every dog has brought monumental changes to me
personally and professionally.
And so, yeah, um, that's the next.
Well,
Anke: that means I'm going to have to, but I have to have you back twice.
In the meantime, let people know where they can find out about you.
You know, I'm going to pop the book.
Book link and everything's going to be in the show notes.
Lisa: You can find us two places.
One, really they're the same, just two different pages on our website.
One is coldnosecollege.
com.
The other is rocketrecall.
com.
So, um, you have a link that you can add or add, which you can download the quick
reference guide to the 12 most important, important points to Rocket Recall.
So, you know, it's proven that if you just pick up something to look
at a couple times a day, sure.
bits of, of reading that it starts to cement in your memory.
So that's why that's a free download.
Um, and then there is a Rocket Recall instructor handouts for trainers that
gives them, um, 19 handouts so they can give them to their clients when
they're ready to progress in the, in the systematic progressive road, uh, program.
Protocol.
And then there is a online course over 42 video, how to videos, and
90 photos, which takes you through in an online course, this book.
Both the Um, online course and the handouts are about to have steep
discounts because Valentine's Day is coming up, that v in, in in Valentine,
how deep that V shape is, those are gonna be the deep discounts for
Anke: Ooh.
Awesome.
So we're gonna make sure that go, comes out before that happens so
people can take advantage of it.
And, and
Lisa: if I didn't provide you with a follow up, and I'll give you those
links so you can add those as well.
Anke: Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
This was absolutely delightful and I'm already looking forward to the next one.
Lisa: Oh, thank you.
I am too, Anke.
I just can't thank you enough and stay warm.
I will.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Thanks so much for listening.
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Email me at Anke.
That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.