1 00:00:00,064 --> 00:00:03,024 Bret: This is DevOps and Docker Talk, and I'm your host, Bret Fisher. 2 00:00:03,524 --> 00:00:09,024 In this episode, we're gonna get into the weeds with agents and CI. 3 00:00:09,064 --> 00:00:13,790 I've got the team from Semaphore on the show, Marcos and Marko, who joined the 4 00:00:13,790 --> 00:00:16,461 show to really just talk about their transformation over the last year. 5 00:00:16,470 --> 00:00:20,100 Now, if you've been around a minute with this show, I had Semaphore on 6 00:00:20,100 --> 00:00:24,240 probably five years ago, four to five years ago, and we talked about 7 00:00:24,260 --> 00:00:29,130 sort of typical CI/CD stuff, and this time it was completely different. 8 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:33,830 just in the last year, they have completely transformed their product 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,220 and their tooling to be AI first, and we get into what that really 10 00:00:37,220 --> 00:00:39,630 means, and it's not… In this case, I don't feel like it's a buzzword. 11 00:00:39,630 --> 00:00:43,157 I think it truly is an optimized way for interacting with your 12 00:00:43,157 --> 00:00:44,917 CI from your agent harnesses. 13 00:00:45,217 --> 00:00:49,837 And two, they open sourced their platform, so you can now run it yourself 14 00:00:49,837 --> 00:00:51,657 if you don't wanna pay them to run it. 15 00:00:51,704 --> 00:00:57,444 So they offer the typical options of running their open source CI or running 16 00:00:57,444 --> 00:01:00,524 it on their platform, paying for runners and having them run their, their runners. 17 00:01:00,524 --> 00:01:03,440 They actually, just recently did a benchmark comparing themselves to a lot 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,040 of the other CIs and saw that they were cheaper and faster than the others. 19 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,980 we dug into exactly what it means to just drive your CI completely from an 20 00:01:11,980 --> 00:01:15,300 agent harness and not just sort of in the contrived way that I've been doing 21 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:19,420 it, which is, you know, telling it, "Hey, can you go check on that CI job? Hey, can 22 00:01:19,420 --> 00:01:24,050 you make sure that that git push commit thing happened?" And, like, all the… 23 00:01:24,060 --> 00:01:29,354 Like, they've sort of rethought it from, I would say, first principles of Why does 24 00:01:29,524 --> 00:01:34,104 CI running, or why do tests or workflows that I need to run around my code, like 25 00:01:34,114 --> 00:01:37,904 linting, testing, and all the different forms of that testing, security scanning, 26 00:01:37,904 --> 00:01:41,654 like why do I need to wait on a git push in order to kick those things off? 27 00:01:41,664 --> 00:01:46,684 What would happen if my agent could know everything about my CI just from starting 28 00:01:46,684 --> 00:01:51,584 up, have all the tools and MCPs and skills and command lines, have everything it 29 00:01:51,584 --> 00:01:56,654 needs on every project, and then when I start a feature build, it knows that it 30 00:01:56,654 --> 00:02:01,424 can spin up testing and all the other various workflows I might have without 31 00:02:01,424 --> 00:02:03,334 needing to make a commit or pushing code. 32 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:06,230 And they have multiple features that sort of come together in 33 00:02:06,230 --> 00:02:07,630 something they call test boxes. 34 00:02:07,630 --> 00:02:11,930 And so we get into a lot of that because that, to me, has been my vision of where 35 00:02:11,930 --> 00:02:18,050 I think CI/CD is going for agents, where they are free to run CI anytime they want. 36 00:02:18,050 --> 00:02:22,360 They don't necessarily have to run it through the PR typical workflow just 37 00:02:22,370 --> 00:02:27,220 to be able to run tests and run lints and do scans and make sure that their 38 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:31,650 generated code is gonna work, and that feels like what they've just built. 39 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,120 I went through their backlog of blogs, and for the last six months or more, they 40 00:02:35,130 --> 00:02:39,030 have been posting very regularly about their updates to their open source CLI 41 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,454 tooling, to all the dozens of skills that they've made for their CI, everything 42 00:02:43,454 --> 00:02:47,280 from helping it automate the fixing of flaky tests to essentially onboarding 43 00:02:47,890 --> 00:02:51,920 yourself to their entire platform by just installing the Claude Code plugin or the 44 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:56,444 Codex plugin and just saying, "Hey, set me up on Semaphore, build me some workflows, 45 00:02:56,484 --> 00:02:58,184 and keep working until they're green." 46 00:02:58,207 --> 00:03:00,497 Which is a pretty, I don't know. 47 00:03:00,530 --> 00:03:04,510 That sounds like a demo type of prompt, but it seems like that's what they've 48 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,680 built and that they've designed this whole platform and their skills and 49 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,117 their workflows and MCP tooling around just letting the agent cook and not 50 00:03:13,127 --> 00:03:17,227 having to worry about whether it's figuring out CI or whether it needs to 51 00:03:17,227 --> 00:03:21,397 go check CI again or whether it needs to fix that thing that it pushed into CI. 52 00:03:21,677 --> 00:03:24,297 And it just feels like it, they're streamlining the whole process, 53 00:03:24,297 --> 00:03:25,277 and I'm excited to get into it. 54 00:03:25,287 --> 00:03:29,627 So let's jump in to Marcos and Marko tell us their journey to building 55 00:03:29,627 --> 00:03:34,264 an open source AI native CI/CD platform all right, let's get the 56 00:03:34,274 --> 00:03:36,284 titles and locations out of the way. 57 00:03:36,294 --> 00:03:38,324 Marcos, what do you do and where are you from? 58 00:03:38,824 --> 00:03:42,854 Marcos: Well, I do software, but I'm software engineer in Semaphore, 59 00:03:42,894 --> 00:03:45,254 and I'm here from Natal, Brazil. 60 00:03:45,754 --> 00:03:46,374 Bret: Nice. 61 00:03:46,794 --> 00:03:47,334 Brazil. 62 00:03:47,864 --> 00:03:49,514 Marko, same question 63 00:03:50,014 --> 00:03:50,394 Marko: Yeah. 64 00:03:50,394 --> 00:03:53,854 So I'm, responsible for the product at Semaphore, and I'm 65 00:03:53,854 --> 00:03:55,704 calling in from Slovenia, Europe 66 00:03:55,863 --> 00:03:56,413 Bret: nice. 67 00:03:56,413 --> 00:04:01,233 and you're now alumni of the DevOps and Docker Talks show, so welcome back. 68 00:04:01,283 --> 00:04:06,513 We talked a lot last time around sort of how Semaphore was optimizing 69 00:04:06,573 --> 00:04:10,163 CI/CD, and we were f- we were talking a lot about, local testing back then. 70 00:04:10,173 --> 00:04:11,773 I mean, this was pre-AI. 71 00:04:11,783 --> 00:04:15,863 It was almost like, is there anything relevant in that conversation anymore? 72 00:04:16,073 --> 00:04:18,883 Because everything has changed, especially when it comes to automation, 73 00:04:19,253 --> 00:04:23,453 and I'm excited to get into it because you all recently went, well, in the 74 00:04:23,453 --> 00:04:26,123 last year, like the rest of us, you went through a journey as a company 75 00:04:26,133 --> 00:04:30,263 as well as individual developers and figuring out what agents can do for you. 76 00:04:30,483 --> 00:04:36,833 Marko, tell us about the journey of, like, how did you start s- first 77 00:04:36,833 --> 00:04:41,733 thinking about CI as something that needed to sort of be reinvented? 78 00:04:41,733 --> 00:04:43,773 I don't know if that's the ri- maybe that's a strong word, reinventing. 79 00:04:44,123 --> 00:04:48,203 But, I feel like there's so much opportunity for changing the way that 80 00:04:48,703 --> 00:04:52,343 automation and CI testing works now that it… how did you come about this? 81 00:04:52,843 --> 00:04:53,753 What's that origin story? 82 00:04:54,755 --> 00:04:56,525 Oh, hey Thanks for listening. 83 00:04:56,545 --> 00:05:00,075 And I got a couple of quick announcements about stuff that I've created. 84 00:05:00,085 --> 00:05:02,475 A lot of this is free stuff you can get right now. 85 00:05:02,825 --> 00:05:06,435 Just in case you've not seen some of my other videos or stuff I've 86 00:05:06,435 --> 00:05:11,405 been doing on my newsletter, I've created a GitHub security scanner 87 00:05:11,735 --> 00:05:13,485 that is an open source project. 88 00:05:13,665 --> 00:05:18,425 It's called GASA, GitHub Actions Security Assessment, and it's 89 00:05:18,425 --> 00:05:20,065 expanded to even have more rules. 90 00:05:20,065 --> 00:05:23,955 I think I'm about at now a dozen rules on it that scans your repos, 91 00:05:23,985 --> 00:05:27,875 including the entire organization, and the focus of it isn't to replace 92 00:05:27,895 --> 00:05:32,255 other linters like the GitHub Actions Linter or Sysmor or other scanners 93 00:05:32,255 --> 00:05:34,125 like Poutine that are all really great. 94 00:05:34,335 --> 00:05:38,085 It's meant to supplement those and solve my own problems as well as my 95 00:05:38,085 --> 00:05:40,405 clients' problems, and I just thought I would open source it to give it 96 00:05:40,405 --> 00:05:43,965 to everyone, and I've spent a lot of time trying to make it a solid tool. 97 00:05:44,035 --> 00:05:48,475 Actually just spent some today, time today in Fable Model building out 98 00:05:48,485 --> 00:05:52,145 some better testing frameworks to test it against real organization 99 00:05:52,145 --> 00:05:54,435 repos as a part of its PR testing. 100 00:05:54,435 --> 00:05:58,905 But the whole purpose of this is to scan its personal repos or even 101 00:05:58,905 --> 00:06:02,805 repos you might wanna use, or mostly your organizational repos all at one 102 00:06:02,805 --> 00:06:08,065 time to give you this report on your stance of GitHub Action security. 103 00:06:08,215 --> 00:06:11,595 And it looks not just at the workflows, but also the repo 104 00:06:11,595 --> 00:06:12,865 settings on the back end. 105 00:06:13,325 --> 00:06:17,195 And this is based on my half decade of consulting around GitHub Actions, 106 00:06:17,475 --> 00:06:18,875 and there's no agenda there. 107 00:06:18,875 --> 00:06:19,815 It's completely free. 108 00:06:20,065 --> 00:06:23,955 I've actually been using it to implement and upgrade the security of my own repos 109 00:06:23,975 --> 00:06:27,855 to make sure that I'm not as vulnerable to some of the recent supply chain attacks. 110 00:06:28,055 --> 00:06:31,835 So the whole reason of doing it was people were asking me to help them lock down 111 00:06:31,835 --> 00:06:35,165 their supply chain against the attacks we've seen over the last year on GitHub 112 00:06:35,165 --> 00:06:39,085 Actions, particularly around open source repos, or even using other people's 113 00:06:39,085 --> 00:06:41,275 GitHub actions in a more secure way. 114 00:06:41,305 --> 00:06:45,275 It will guide you through how you can change and improve the security. 115 00:06:45,275 --> 00:06:48,135 It won't actually change all the settings for you, because I'm not 116 00:06:48,135 --> 00:06:51,215 quite comfortable with it going in blast radius of your entire org. 117 00:06:51,545 --> 00:06:52,435 But go check that out. 118 00:06:52,475 --> 00:06:55,075 It's on my GitHub, and the link is in the show notes. 119 00:06:55,575 --> 00:07:01,805 Next, I had in July a GitHub Actions security workshop for free 120 00:07:02,075 --> 00:07:03,715 because Chainguard sponsored me. 121 00:07:03,715 --> 00:07:07,175 I was actually gonna charge for this workshop 'cause it was hours worth 122 00:07:07,185 --> 00:07:12,765 of hands-on learning around how to use your own agent or your own hands 123 00:07:12,765 --> 00:07:16,955 to actually lock down your GitHub to make sure that you're not vulnerable. 124 00:07:16,975 --> 00:07:21,915 So it's walking through what this GASA tool does, but also why these settings 125 00:07:21,915 --> 00:07:24,655 need to be locked down, why you need to care about those particular settings, 126 00:07:24,655 --> 00:07:28,645 and what happens when you maybe do one thing in a workflow and another thing 127 00:07:28,645 --> 00:07:32,305 in a security setting in your admin settings, and those two things conflict 128 00:07:32,305 --> 00:07:37,015 and cause a security potential risk that GitHub isn't probably warning you about. 129 00:07:37,295 --> 00:07:40,295 So it's meant to supplement all the current stuff out there that really 130 00:07:40,295 --> 00:07:44,085 just focuses on the workflows, but don't actually also consider the 131 00:07:44,385 --> 00:07:47,925 admin settings of your workflows which are behind the scenes, right? 132 00:07:48,015 --> 00:07:50,775 People can't see those settings, and they're not usually easy to find. 133 00:07:50,775 --> 00:07:54,045 So anyway, you can go look at that workshop also free on my website. 134 00:07:54,045 --> 00:07:56,423 Thanks to Chainguard for doing that and making it- Free for everyone. 135 00:07:56,813 --> 00:08:02,953 And finally, if you didn't know about my Agentic DevOps Guild, we have been 136 00:08:02,953 --> 00:08:06,973 meeting weekly since March, where we-- I think we're, like, twenty-five weeks 137 00:08:07,303 --> 00:08:13,123 of weekly meetings, and we're now over fifty teams of people in there solving 138 00:08:13,123 --> 00:08:17,603 problems for their team on how we're gonna manage agents, how we're gonna manage 139 00:08:17,893 --> 00:08:23,253 the security and the sandboxing of our AI for platform engineering use, DevOps, 140 00:08:23,533 --> 00:08:25,913 anything related to cloud and Kubernetes. 141 00:08:25,913 --> 00:08:29,393 If you're somewhere in an ops role, this was the program designed for you. 142 00:08:29,403 --> 00:08:32,633 It's not just meetups, but I'm also creating courses. 143 00:08:32,633 --> 00:08:37,683 I've got two courses in the works right now where videos drop on a sort 144 00:08:37,683 --> 00:08:41,853 of a random basis, but based on what comes out of our meetings, I turn that 145 00:08:41,863 --> 00:08:44,493 into lessons for everyone to adopt. 146 00:08:44,753 --> 00:08:48,263 And also that comes with workshops that we do, including this Gaza 147 00:08:48,263 --> 00:08:49,623 workshop that was last month. 148 00:08:49,993 --> 00:08:52,143 And those workshops are meant for the guild. 149 00:08:52,143 --> 00:08:54,243 The guild will always get those for free, even if someone 150 00:08:54,243 --> 00:08:55,473 doesn't sponsor the workshop. 151 00:08:55,863 --> 00:08:59,843 But go check that out also on my website, and I hope that helps solve 152 00:08:59,853 --> 00:09:01,653 some of your AI adoption problems. 153 00:09:02,103 --> 00:09:02,783 Back to the episode. 154 00:09:03,753 --> 00:09:04,023 Marko: Yeah. 155 00:09:04,023 --> 00:09:09,403 So, so, s- with all this automation and, the, the CI is becoming even 156 00:09:09,403 --> 00:09:12,753 more important for the folks, especially that the whole development 157 00:09:12,753 --> 00:09:16,223 cycle is, getting shorter and there's a faster turnaround time. 158 00:09:16,723 --> 00:09:21,793 So, we started thinking, how can we enable our customers to kind of get 159 00:09:21,793 --> 00:09:25,343 on that train even faster and leverage the whole technology that is emerging? 160 00:09:25,843 --> 00:09:29,153 And of course, when we started thinking about it, the first 161 00:09:29,153 --> 00:09:30,403 thing that we did, what is it? 162 00:09:30,593 --> 00:09:34,783 Like la- last quarter of last year, we created an MCP server 163 00:09:35,073 --> 00:09:38,183 because that was the thing back then, If, everybody was doing that. 164 00:09:38,263 --> 00:09:40,013 Bret: Yeah, it's crazy how early MCP was. 165 00:09:40,023 --> 00:09:43,233 Like, it was pre-skills, I think pre-agent files really. 166 00:09:43,263 --> 00:09:43,543 Yeah. 167 00:09:44,005 --> 00:09:44,325 Marko: Yeah. 168 00:09:44,725 --> 00:09:45,515 Yeah, for sure. 169 00:09:45,855 --> 00:09:47,295 But that was the thing back then. 170 00:09:47,355 --> 00:09:50,215 It's kind of like everybody was like, you know, "Hey, that's the way how we 171 00:09:50,215 --> 00:09:51,795 are going to connect to different tools." 172 00:09:52,215 --> 00:09:56,385 And I think I believe it still is, but as we were starting to develop our 173 00:09:56,385 --> 00:10:01,415 internal processes around agents and scale our agentic use, we have realized 174 00:10:01,415 --> 00:10:04,995 that it's maybe something different, and it's not one or the other thing, 175 00:10:05,235 --> 00:10:08,955 but it's actually both things or all things because all the developers, 176 00:10:08,955 --> 00:10:12,375 they have a special preferences, and they have their good reasons why 177 00:10:12,405 --> 00:10:14,825 they prefer one, one or the other. 178 00:10:15,325 --> 00:10:19,605 But working with our customers, what became very obvious is that, we have this 179 00:10:19,655 --> 00:10:23,015 new surface that the developers are using. 180 00:10:23,015 --> 00:10:26,235 It's not it's not before you had like, I don't know, five or six windows 181 00:10:26,245 --> 00:10:29,225 that you were switching through in order to do your work as a developer. 182 00:10:29,725 --> 00:10:33,845 And nowadays it was becoming more, more clear that either you upload 183 00:10:33,885 --> 00:10:39,605 code or codecs or, pick a, a, a coding agent, it's becoming your only surface. 184 00:10:39,675 --> 00:10:42,975 And you want to be able to, to talk to it and that everything 185 00:10:42,975 --> 00:10:44,035 needs to be done, there. 186 00:10:44,035 --> 00:10:47,545 And then we were fine looking into "Hey, what is the way, how can we 187 00:10:47,545 --> 00:10:52,635 interface with the coding agent of our customer's choice?" Yeah, in a very 188 00:10:52,635 --> 00:10:56,245 efficient way and give it everything that, that the developer needs to do the 189 00:10:56,245 --> 00:10:57,945 work, that the developer needs to do. 190 00:10:57,965 --> 00:11:02,045 So, in essence, Semaphore is all about developers' productivity. 191 00:11:02,515 --> 00:11:05,745 And then for us this was like, "Hey, okay, we need to get in like we need to 192 00:11:05,745 --> 00:11:10,065 create an interface that feels native for this new surface coding agent," and 193 00:11:10,065 --> 00:11:12,685 that's how the whole Sem AI emerged. 194 00:11:13,185 --> 00:11:15,655 And it's, yeah, Semaphore for AI. 195 00:11:15,705 --> 00:11:17,485 The that is all about it. 196 00:11:17,945 --> 00:11:21,725 And then, as we were developing our own hands-on experience, we were 197 00:11:21,755 --> 00:11:24,795 kind of thinking like, "Hey, how do you connect efficiently with the 198 00:11:24,795 --> 00:11:29,425 coding agent?" And then, Marcus was our head engineer on that project. 199 00:11:29,695 --> 00:11:34,095 He came up with the concept of "Hey, let's create the CLI." But the CLI 200 00:11:34,095 --> 00:11:38,275 is not only commands, but it's a mix of the commands and MCP server 201 00:11:38,285 --> 00:11:42,595 that is a local server, so that the developers can choose their preference. 202 00:11:42,595 --> 00:11:47,145 But also agents themselves can also like, use whatever they prefer at the same, at 203 00:11:47,145 --> 00:11:51,885 the time, because we also noticed that, for certain tasks, developer, agents 204 00:11:51,885 --> 00:11:54,815 have the preferences for some reason. 205 00:11:55,015 --> 00:11:58,585 So it's that, that was one of, one of, many, confirmations that it's 206 00:11:58,585 --> 00:12:00,165 not one or the other, but it's both. 207 00:12:00,665 --> 00:12:04,115 And then we try to make it as, as optimal for the agents as possible. 208 00:12:04,235 --> 00:12:09,375 So everything is you know, JSON native and all the commands are very 209 00:12:09,375 --> 00:12:13,245 well documented, not for the humans to read that, but for the agents to 210 00:12:13,255 --> 00:12:17,385 be able to use them and understand the use case and a lot of examples. 211 00:12:17,885 --> 00:12:23,595 But from the product perspective, my kind of vision for this interface 212 00:12:23,605 --> 00:12:29,305 was that, hey, let's enable people to have the natural language in a 213 00:12:29,305 --> 00:12:33,725 conversation with the CI and then lower their bar- that barrier of entry. 214 00:12:34,145 --> 00:12:37,825 Because in order to deploy a, a kind of you know, put in production a 215 00:12:37,835 --> 00:12:42,045 CI/CD tool as you… I can imagine all the viewers know it's a lot of work. 216 00:12:42,545 --> 00:12:47,045 You had to learn the platform, develop a com- a, a configuration, 217 00:12:47,295 --> 00:12:48,665 make sure to test everything. 218 00:12:48,965 --> 00:12:49,355 Bret: Yeah. 219 00:12:49,725 --> 00:12:51,155 Learn how the files work, yeah 220 00:12:51,313 --> 00:12:52,143 Marko: Yeah, learn. 221 00:12:52,657 --> 00:12:54,387 Marcos: The first try was SemaBot, right? 222 00:12:55,393 --> 00:12:56,463 Marko: Exactly, yeah. 223 00:12:56,963 --> 00:13:00,353 And yeah, so that, that was kind of like also in the, in that during the 224 00:13:00,363 --> 00:13:03,793 journey we had the OpenClaw became a very big thing, and then we did 225 00:13:03,793 --> 00:13:05,963 our own version of OpenClaw for CI. 226 00:13:06,463 --> 00:13:08,673 But there are a couple of things from the product perspective 227 00:13:08,673 --> 00:13:10,053 that, that was very important. 228 00:13:10,113 --> 00:13:14,193 First one is that, since we are open source but we are also like 229 00:13:14,193 --> 00:13:17,703 serving a lot of enterprises, we are all very big on security. 230 00:13:17,713 --> 00:13:20,623 And then if you're in an enterprise environment, you cannot just like, put 231 00:13:20,623 --> 00:13:24,583 in a AI and put your own LLM and say to the customers, "Hey, this is going 232 00:13:24,583 --> 00:13:26,293 to be you." That, that will not work. 233 00:13:26,293 --> 00:13:30,573 So, so we said, "Hey, let's create a solution where our, where the user, the 234 00:13:30,573 --> 00:13:35,543 developer can select the LLM that is, in the enterprise environment, it is approved 235 00:13:35,603 --> 00:13:39,883 by the enterprise and they're paying for subscription, all the legal work in 236 00:13:39,903 --> 00:13:44,573 is worked out. And then just create an interface that can, that will empower 237 00:13:44,573 --> 00:13:48,923 that LLM to do more for developers." So that, that was one thing that, that 238 00:13:48,953 --> 00:13:50,813 was like a vision for the project. 239 00:13:50,843 --> 00:13:55,083 The other thing was how can we create, create interface for 100% of 240 00:13:55,083 --> 00:13:59,243 functionality of Semaphore so that the developer can complete all of 241 00:13:59,243 --> 00:14:03,793 the time stay in that coding agent of choice, let's say, Claude Code. 242 00:14:04,283 --> 00:14:07,339 And then never leave and, and do everything through it. 243 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,049 And then how can we create experience where you… I don't 244 00:14:10,059 --> 00:14:13,159 have to learn anything except high-level things, of course. 245 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:16,203 Yeah, I need to conceptually know what the CI and CD does. 246 00:14:16,243 --> 00:14:17,723 But how… I don't have to learn the configuration. 247 00:14:19,353 --> 00:14:24,753 And that was described in a way, hey, we know the CI/CD inside out. 248 00:14:24,813 --> 00:14:27,973 We have a lot of engineers on our team that are like, building 249 00:14:27,973 --> 00:14:29,873 CI/CD tools for like a decade. 250 00:14:30,373 --> 00:14:33,983 Let's put all that inter- expertise, package it somehow so that the 251 00:14:33,983 --> 00:14:36,873 other people can leverage it instead of them becoming experts. 252 00:14:37,373 --> 00:14:40,723 And that's what we have discovered that the good combination of a right, 253 00:14:40,913 --> 00:14:46,813 a CLI with the, as I said, commands plus, MCP and set of skills and lot of 254 00:14:46,813 --> 00:14:49,653 examples, are actually doing the thing. 255 00:14:49,943 --> 00:14:53,613 And then actually, and getting us to that, that, experience, that developer 256 00:14:53,613 --> 00:14:57,443 experience that I can just naturally in natural language say "Hey, this 257 00:14:57,443 --> 00:15:01,313 is what… This is the outcome that I want." And then the, then my coding 258 00:15:01,313 --> 00:15:06,453 agent will be able to interact with the, with Semaphore in this case and 259 00:15:06,453 --> 00:15:08,033 do everything that needs to be done. 260 00:15:08,533 --> 00:15:08,953 Bret: Yeah. 261 00:15:09,453 --> 00:15:13,983 It's funny that in a world where we're gonna end up with these ad- advanced 262 00:15:14,003 --> 00:15:18,323 AIs that do a lot of the, grunt work for us, that the sweet spot seems 263 00:15:18,323 --> 00:15:20,693 right now like to stay at the CLI. 264 00:15:21,103 --> 00:15:25,023 And if you'd asked me like- 10 years ago or even five years ago, "Hey, 265 00:15:25,023 --> 00:15:27,513 if you can imagine a future with AI, do you think we'll be spending more 266 00:15:27,513 --> 00:15:28,933 time or less time in the terminal?" 267 00:15:29,433 --> 00:15:30,913 I would've said probably less, right? 268 00:15:30,913 --> 00:15:32,513 We're gonna have AIs do all that, right? 269 00:15:32,913 --> 00:15:36,613 But being such a, a terminal fan, like one of… I think actually literally 270 00:15:36,623 --> 00:15:40,143 the most popular page on my website is my s- my shell setup page, which I 271 00:15:40,213 --> 00:15:42,513 detail, like, all the different things. 272 00:15:42,513 --> 00:15:45,243 It's a lot easier nowadays, but 10 years ago, for those of you kiddies 273 00:15:45,243 --> 00:15:48,233 out there listening, we used to have to do things like we have to, 274 00:15:48,253 --> 00:15:50,873 we'd have to install specific fonts, which, you kind of still have to do. 275 00:15:51,523 --> 00:15:53,673 But we'd have to worry about italics, like italicize didn't 276 00:15:53,673 --> 00:15:56,483 work by default, so you'd have to customize that stuff in your editor. 277 00:15:56,483 --> 00:15:59,773 You'd have to do all sorts of very particular settings and configurations 278 00:15:59,773 --> 00:16:04,503 just to get a, a VIM to work right in a shell with all of the settings you wanted. 279 00:16:04,553 --> 00:16:08,293 We had to do a lot more a decade ago than we did do nowadays to set up your shell. 280 00:16:08,293 --> 00:16:10,893 But I still get a ton of traffic just when they, they just wanna 281 00:16:10,893 --> 00:16:13,603 know the fonts I'm using, the themes I'm using, the, the GUI I used. 282 00:16:13,633 --> 00:16:17,393 And then the, now my most popular video this year is my video of talking 283 00:16:17,393 --> 00:16:20,903 about leaving Ghostty Terminal, which has been for a couple years the big 284 00:16:20,903 --> 00:16:25,833 thing for terminals, leaving that for, Supacode, which is a g- a lib Ghostty. 285 00:16:25,833 --> 00:16:29,833 It's actually a Ghostty project, but it adds a bunch of agent management features 286 00:16:29,843 --> 00:16:31,023 so that you can manage your product. 287 00:16:31,033 --> 00:16:34,093 So those of you watching, if you're interested in agents in the shell, go look 288 00:16:34,093 --> 00:16:35,873 at my YouTube later, but not right now. 289 00:16:35,873 --> 00:16:36,963 We're talking about CI right now. 290 00:16:37,133 --> 00:16:40,403 But I'm… It's hilarious that, the, the terminal people are getting their, 291 00:16:40,503 --> 00:16:41,813 they're getting everything right now. 292 00:16:41,823 --> 00:16:44,383 All the best stuff right now I feel like is in the terminal. 293 00:16:44,633 --> 00:16:45,973 All the best coding agents. 294 00:16:45,993 --> 00:16:48,763 I'm not… I'm trying to use the GUIs, but I don't feel like they're as good. 295 00:16:49,193 --> 00:16:52,823 And the fact that I can now… it took, to me, the way I'm looking at this 296 00:16:52,833 --> 00:16:57,443 is it took agents or it took AI for us to start looking at platforms like 297 00:16:57,443 --> 00:17:02,823 yours in a way of, we, a lot of, we all had CLIs for these tools, but you 298 00:17:02,833 --> 00:17:04,573 had to really memorize the commands. 299 00:17:05,073 --> 00:17:07,653 I always feel like I don't know all the commands, and I'm constantly 300 00:17:07,653 --> 00:17:08,583 like, "Is there a command for this? 301 00:17:08,583 --> 00:17:10,663 Am I searching for a command?" you s- look at me look at the help. 302 00:17:10,673 --> 00:17:13,883 Can I even do this in the… and so I think as humans, we have this 303 00:17:13,883 --> 00:17:17,423 ability where we learn the command line tool once, let's say Docker. 304 00:17:17,773 --> 00:17:20,903 But then Docker adds a bunch of new features five years later, 305 00:17:20,903 --> 00:17:24,403 and no one uses them in the CLI because we all already learned it. 306 00:17:24,773 --> 00:17:30,013 And when I talk to people about this, they seem to agree that w- we don't feel like 307 00:17:30,023 --> 00:17:35,043 we're really experts in the CLI, the full power of the CLI of a lot of these tools. 308 00:17:35,523 --> 00:17:38,993 And now I just feel like that's, that problem has been completely erased. 309 00:17:39,143 --> 00:17:42,433 Like y- like the way that I'm looking at your documentation, I'm 310 00:17:42,433 --> 00:17:44,643 realizing I, I could pick this up. 311 00:17:45,023 --> 00:17:49,593 I could use the CI, and the only thing I have to be good at is understanding 312 00:17:49,653 --> 00:17:55,023 CI concepts like the, the basics of CI and automation and how you 313 00:17:55,043 --> 00:17:56,933 manage a Git repo with workflows. 314 00:17:56,963 --> 00:17:59,763 But I feel like the only thing I really have to understand is, how 315 00:17:59,763 --> 00:18:02,293 to prompt my intent to the agent. 316 00:18:02,713 --> 00:18:06,033 And I feel like your demos on your website, the, the little ones that 317 00:18:06,033 --> 00:18:10,233 say "Set up my CI for me," they… A lot of websites, they feel contrived. 318 00:18:10,503 --> 00:18:13,913 We used to have these sort of made-up demos on the front page, but that's 319 00:18:13,923 --> 00:18:16,993 literally probably what I would type to the CI is, "Could you please 320 00:18:16,993 --> 00:18:18,433 just set up Semaphore for me?" 321 00:18:18,433 --> 00:18:22,923 Because I don't know the shell, I don't know the CLI, and I'm not even familiar 322 00:18:22,923 --> 00:18:27,983 yet with the GUI, so I don't know what possible options are for the GUI. 323 00:18:28,013 --> 00:18:32,783 And that's just a, it's a cool target to, to approach of like, our onboarding 324 00:18:32,793 --> 00:18:36,443 literally needs to be someone who's switching from some other CI and 325 00:18:37,153 --> 00:18:41,233 doesn't know anything about our platform, but the agent can make them 326 00:18:41,713 --> 00:18:43,673 extremely productive in the first hour. 327 00:18:43,943 --> 00:18:46,773 And is that something that you are constantly testing and building out? 328 00:18:46,773 --> 00:18:48,543 Looks like it was, like, a, a major feature for you. 329 00:18:49,043 --> 00:18:49,783 Marko: Yeah, absolutely. 330 00:18:50,053 --> 00:18:50,503 Absolutely. 331 00:18:50,813 --> 00:18:54,793 that barrier of entry, how, b- this is becoming extremely important. 332 00:18:55,123 --> 00:18:58,553 Like with all the code being generated by agents, like if you do not have a 333 00:18:58,553 --> 00:19:03,763 great CI that can test and make sure that you're like shipping something that, 334 00:19:03,793 --> 00:19:07,533 that, has no regressions and, and it's high quality, that's extremely important. 335 00:19:07,543 --> 00:19:10,923 So it's very important that it's very easy for people to get on board with 336 00:19:10,923 --> 00:19:15,813 the CI/CD, and then also to give them freedom to easily switch from one 337 00:19:16,013 --> 00:19:17,833 to another, whatever is the reason. 338 00:19:18,313 --> 00:19:21,403 And then, those barriers were very difficult and hard before. 339 00:19:21,743 --> 00:19:25,856 These were like in a really project that DevOps organizations were planning 340 00:19:25,856 --> 00:19:30,096 on them, they, like asking for budgets and all like, and so it was very hard. 341 00:19:30,466 --> 00:19:34,046 And now it's, it just we have a tool that is like very good at reading 342 00:19:34,046 --> 00:19:38,486 documentation, which we as humans were really bad at, writing documentation, 343 00:19:38,486 --> 00:19:40,036 especially reading the documentation. 344 00:19:40,168 --> 00:19:40,828 Bret: it's our last 345 00:19:40,926 --> 00:19:41,696 Marko: Exactly the last… 346 00:19:41,738 --> 00:19:42,568 Bret: hope is documentation. 347 00:19:42,708 --> 00:19:42,928 Yeah. 348 00:19:42,938 --> 00:19:44,788 How far can I get without documentation? 349 00:19:45,288 --> 00:19:45,648 Marko: Yeah. 350 00:19:45,818 --> 00:19:49,318 And then nowadays we have s- we have a tool that is very diligent in reading 351 00:19:49,318 --> 00:19:53,878 the documentation, especially if you format it in the right way, and 352 00:19:53,878 --> 00:19:59,258 then it's, it's "Hey, I have this, please, cop- look at this like Jenkins 353 00:19:59,268 --> 00:20:01,798 configuration and make it, in Semaphore." 354 00:20:01,948 --> 00:20:06,218 And then it starts to, to run because it, it knows like a lot of 355 00:20:06,218 --> 00:20:09,038 details about Jenkins and all the Groovy script and everything, and 356 00:20:09,038 --> 00:20:13,138 it knows exactly how to mimic that in Semaphore and that's awesome. 357 00:20:13,508 --> 00:20:16,338 And then you can really quickly s- try it out and see what you can, 358 00:20:16,838 --> 00:20:21,018 Marcos: It was even a point that I was pestering Marko, because I 359 00:20:21,018 --> 00:20:24,408 wanted to set up a project of mine on Semaphore, only it starts when 360 00:20:24,408 --> 00:20:25,948 I started working with the company. 361 00:20:26,368 --> 00:20:28,038 But I didn't know how to do that. 362 00:20:28,288 --> 00:20:32,328 And now we only-- we just have a comment that you can talk with your agent 363 00:20:32,328 --> 00:20:34,158 that can do anything that you want. 364 00:20:34,478 --> 00:20:39,128 And you can set up a CI/CD from zero to hero like we have, one series 365 00:20:39,128 --> 00:20:41,438 about that in around ten minutes. 366 00:20:41,638 --> 00:20:42,808 So it's very interesting. 367 00:20:43,308 --> 00:20:43,768 Bret: Yeah. 368 00:20:44,108 --> 00:20:46,788 in fact, I don't think I've thought a lot about the fact that w- what 369 00:20:46,798 --> 00:20:51,058 one of the things that agents are letting us do is switch tooling. 370 00:20:51,068 --> 00:20:53,698 I Not just switch tooling, but now we're seeing, c- complete 371 00:20:53,698 --> 00:20:55,298 projects being rewritten in Rust, 372 00:20:55,798 --> 00:20:56,598 Marko: Yeah, that's very popular. 373 00:20:56,804 --> 00:21:00,224 Bret: a- and if we can rewrite an application in Rust with $10,000 of 374 00:21:00,224 --> 00:21:06,254 tokens, like we can probably switch our CIs much quicker with far fewer tokens. 375 00:21:06,754 --> 00:21:09,094 But I haven't thought about, too much about the fact… 'Cause we had, I mean, 376 00:21:09,094 --> 00:21:14,674 we have an entire ecosystem, I feel like, of tooling to migrate one workflow 377 00:21:14,684 --> 00:21:18,364 file, you know, migrate everything away from Jenkins, which I approve, 378 00:21:18,664 --> 00:21:22,444 and then m- move from, we, a lot of us had to move from Travis years ago when 379 00:21:22,444 --> 00:21:23,964 Travis changed a lot of its free… 380 00:21:24,004 --> 00:21:27,484 Remember f- a decade ago, Travis was very free, and we were all addicted to 381 00:21:27,484 --> 00:21:29,754 the free, and then they weren't so free, and then we had to move to something 382 00:21:29,754 --> 00:21:33,444 else, and I, and we have all these tools at the ecosystem, or even some of the, 383 00:21:33,644 --> 00:21:36,284 we, you probably, I don't know, maybe made some of these converters yourself. 384 00:21:36,284 --> 00:21:37,794 And it never went 100%. 385 00:21:37,814 --> 00:21:41,624 It was never, it never really worked on the first try. 386 00:21:41,624 --> 00:21:45,124 It was more like it would convert… It was kind of like my Dockerfile m- 387 00:21:45,134 --> 00:21:48,404 making, conversion, converting things that would try to figure out your Dockerfile. 388 00:21:48,404 --> 00:21:51,564 It's like they get you to 80%, but then the last 20% actually takes 389 00:21:51,564 --> 00:21:54,074 you a l- a really long time and hours of work to troubleshoot. 390 00:21:54,574 --> 00:21:57,274 And some of the concepts are just different, but I didn't really ever 391 00:21:57,274 --> 00:22:00,954 think about the fact that this is almost a solved problem if you can 392 00:22:01,304 --> 00:22:04,094 give all the documentation and all the right skills and all the right MCP 393 00:22:04,094 --> 00:22:08,784 endpoints to your agents, like this could be a very smooth, fluid, process. 394 00:22:09,044 --> 00:22:10,074 But before, I want to get in that. 395 00:22:10,074 --> 00:22:13,914 So we're gonna get into the details of, like, how exactly people can use 396 00:22:13,914 --> 00:22:15,894 an agent to access and manage a CI. 397 00:22:15,894 --> 00:22:19,264 There's some really interesting things I wanna talk to you about, because I've 398 00:22:19,264 --> 00:22:22,834 been doing a deep dive into your blogs over the last six months, and there's 399 00:22:22,834 --> 00:22:26,454 some really interesting ideas there that I like about, that you all are able to… 400 00:22:26,654 --> 00:22:29,254 You're basically able to be a little more nimble than some of the 401 00:22:29,254 --> 00:22:30,884 cor- the giants out there of CI. 402 00:22:30,894 --> 00:22:35,434 It seems like you're able to move quicker and modify the platform to be more agent 403 00:22:35,484 --> 00:22:39,404 native, than maybe a lot of the other sort of incumbents and legacy platforms. 404 00:22:39,754 --> 00:22:42,464 But first I wanna just talk about you going open source. 405 00:22:42,494 --> 00:22:44,424 'Cause I'm a cloud native ambassador. 406 00:22:44,424 --> 00:22:48,244 I go to all the KubeCons, I'm a part of the CNCF and the Linux 407 00:22:48,244 --> 00:22:50,764 Foundation, and now you all are, too. 408 00:22:50,774 --> 00:22:52,604 you're members of the Linux Foundation, members of the Cloud 409 00:22:52,604 --> 00:22:53,374 Native Computing Foundation. 410 00:22:53,374 --> 00:22:55,894 You're actually listed, for those of you out there that you know 411 00:22:55,894 --> 00:22:59,214 about the landscape, the CNCF landscape, they're listed on the 412 00:22:59,214 --> 00:23:02,684 landscape, which is very cool, 'cause there's a lot of CI options there. 413 00:23:02,994 --> 00:23:07,204 But I always thought of Semaphore as this closed source tool that is 414 00:23:07,204 --> 00:23:13,224 hosted in Europe and is for teams that are maybe burned by some of the big 415 00:23:13,224 --> 00:23:16,284 incumbent players and are looking for something a little more their style. 416 00:23:16,524 --> 00:23:19,394 How did exactly, what, how did this come about? 417 00:23:19,444 --> 00:23:22,104 This seems like a really big decision to open source the platform. 418 00:23:22,604 --> 00:23:24,294 Can you tell me, can you walk me through how that happened? 419 00:23:24,794 --> 00:23:28,754 Marko: Yeah, so, it was a very big lift for the company, in order to open source 420 00:23:28,764 --> 00:23:31,294 your code, it kind of like there's a lot of work that you need to do, 421 00:23:31,304 --> 00:23:35,364 make sure that everything is buttoned up from the security perspective. 422 00:23:35,784 --> 00:23:41,494 So, so it was a big lift, but what we wanted to do is really enable people and 423 00:23:41,834 --> 00:23:47,214 to really meet them where they are, If you are only a cloud provider, then there 424 00:23:47,214 --> 00:23:49,424 are, there's… You're limited in a way. 425 00:23:49,524 --> 00:23:50,494 Who's your customer? 426 00:23:50,604 --> 00:23:54,214 And we also have some, some big customers that are, you know, running 427 00:23:54,214 --> 00:23:56,804 the whole, Semaphore ecosystem on-prem. 428 00:23:57,304 --> 00:24:01,334 And we thought "Hey, let's open source this, let's enable people to try the 429 00:24:01,334 --> 00:24:04,974 Semaphore in the way that suits, suits them the best so that, if you want to 430 00:24:04,974 --> 00:24:09,224 run it on your own, you can. That we can open up the platform to call for 431 00:24:09,224 --> 00:24:13,324 contributions so that people can… also developers can collaborate with us 432 00:24:13,804 --> 00:24:18,244 much, much easier." For the developers it's much easier to submit the PR or 433 00:24:18,244 --> 00:24:20,054 add the comment than to hop on a call. 434 00:24:20,554 --> 00:24:24,684 So, so, so it's also to get more feedback, to get more visibility, 435 00:24:25,044 --> 00:24:31,144 and to also make it possible for the, all the Jenkins customers. 436 00:24:31,474 --> 00:24:32,474 Sorry, sorry, Jenkins. 437 00:24:32,514 --> 00:24:35,344 But all the Jenkins customers to try something else, because they 438 00:24:35,344 --> 00:24:36,624 are really in, in the corner. 439 00:24:37,124 --> 00:24:41,254 It's a very, sticky platform for the, in my opinion, for the wrong reasons. 440 00:24:41,754 --> 00:24:46,594 So I think, these are all the, all of, all the, motivations for us to 441 00:24:46,594 --> 00:24:50,954 do an open source and we are, like, starting to see benefits of it. 442 00:24:51,314 --> 00:24:54,154 And then we as a company, we believe that, that the, the 443 00:24:54,154 --> 00:24:55,084 open source is the way to go. 444 00:24:55,814 --> 00:24:56,214 Bret: Yeah. 445 00:24:56,304 --> 00:24:57,704 Marcos, were you a part of that effort? 446 00:24:58,204 --> 00:25:02,564 Marcos: No, I will-- I came later to that, but I made some AI open source. 447 00:25:03,064 --> 00:25:04,474 Bret: Yeah, 'cause that sounds like a lot of work. 448 00:25:04,974 --> 00:25:08,814 Marcos: I'm glad to be… didn't have to be part of that work because it 449 00:25:08,814 --> 00:25:11,594 was a-- Like, I was reading about the documentation that they had. 450 00:25:11,604 --> 00:25:15,974 It was a lot of things that we had to solve before going public with the code 451 00:25:16,474 --> 00:25:16,794 Bret: Yeah. 452 00:25:16,794 --> 00:25:19,114 Yeah, y- it's, I mean, there's so many factors, and I'm sitting here 453 00:25:19,114 --> 00:25:22,309 thinking, as a consultant, I s- I see a lot of different projects, and 454 00:25:22,809 --> 00:25:26,409 a lot of the ones that are closed source, if I was one of the major 455 00:25:26,809 --> 00:25:29,999 people on that project, I would be very nervous about opening, opening it up. 456 00:25:30,109 --> 00:25:34,619 Not from just a security perspective, but now suddenly all my code is v- it's 457 00:25:34,619 --> 00:25:37,509 not … It's one thing when it's a dozen people that are, critiquing my code. 458 00:25:37,509 --> 00:25:39,599 It's another thing when it's thousands of people critiquing my code. 459 00:25:40,529 --> 00:25:43,469 And and sometimes I'm … When I look back at my old code, I'm 460 00:25:43,469 --> 00:25:44,979 often like, "Who wrote that? 461 00:25:45,399 --> 00:25:46,929 Oh, that was me. 462 00:25:46,989 --> 00:25:48,219 What was I s- what was I thinking? 463 00:25:48,219 --> 00:25:51,909 That was dumb." so yeah, that's gotta be … I mean, especially when you have a project 464 00:25:51,929 --> 00:25:53,369 that's many years in the making, right? 465 00:25:53,369 --> 00:25:56,819 It's we all develop differently now than we did a decade ago, and … our, 466 00:25:56,859 --> 00:25:59,929 our intelligence about a, a code base is better than a decade ago. 467 00:25:59,929 --> 00:26:00,789 I mean, everything's different. 468 00:26:01,199 --> 00:26:04,629 So, when you have a long sort of a monolith, maybe not monolith, but 469 00:26:04,679 --> 00:26:07,909 something, anything older than a decade, I feel like at this point is almost 470 00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:11,789 like, legacy code if you don't constantly maintain it, keep it up to date. 471 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:12,679 And I imagine one of the, 472 00:26:12,779 --> 00:26:15,279 I'm gonna guess one of the things you wanted to do before you open sourced 473 00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:18,629 it was to make sure that it was, like, on the latest libraries and it was 474 00:26:18,629 --> 00:26:20,069 using some of the latest paradigms. 475 00:26:20,519 --> 00:26:23,239 So all right, so you made it open source. 476 00:26:23,739 --> 00:26:30,019 People can download this and run this themselves, or they can just easy button 477 00:26:30,019 --> 00:26:31,829 it with you on the hosted platform. 478 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:33,559 … Tell me about, like, the runners. 479 00:26:33,569 --> 00:26:36,249 You provide … Or what do you call those workers or runners or what 480 00:26:36,249 --> 00:26:37,709 do you call those, those machines? 481 00:26:37,805 --> 00:26:38,585 Marko: Yeah, runners. 482 00:26:39,085 --> 00:26:42,225 Yeah, so we provide our own runners, but people can also self-host. 483 00:26:42,515 --> 00:26:46,075 And there are a lot of customers choosing for one or the other 484 00:26:46,085 --> 00:26:47,425 for their specific reasons. 485 00:26:47,645 --> 00:26:50,965 And then the benefit of running on our runners is that we do the, all 486 00:26:50,965 --> 00:26:52,885 the maintenance of the runners. 487 00:26:53,385 --> 00:26:56,315 The benefit of having your own self-hosted runners is that, you can 488 00:26:56,315 --> 00:27:00,265 create the custom environments that, that are really bespoke for your needs. 489 00:27:00,355 --> 00:27:03,765 Maybe they are resembling 100% production environment. 490 00:27:04,265 --> 00:27:07,175 So it, it makes sense in different use cases. 491 00:27:07,555 --> 00:27:09,545 It makes sense to, to use one or the other. 492 00:27:09,545 --> 00:27:13,645 And we have a quite a lot of customers that go hybrid, so some of the runners 493 00:27:13,645 --> 00:27:17,745 are self-hosted and some of the runners are, they're using our cloud. 494 00:27:17,885 --> 00:27:22,135 So, kind of as I said, we like to, to, to meet our customers where they are, 495 00:27:22,635 --> 00:27:26,625 and then, you provide them with the best possible service, that we can offer. 496 00:27:27,125 --> 00:27:30,115 Bret: like I think any CI/CD team at some point they're gonna end up needing 497 00:27:30,115 --> 00:27:33,795 to run runners on their, i- whether it's in their data centers or on their VPCs, 498 00:27:34,315 --> 00:27:38,045 like they're gonna need something that's closer to staging a production, especially 499 00:27:38,045 --> 00:27:39,615 if they're doing CD inside there. 500 00:27:39,625 --> 00:27:44,095 And the runner story is one of those things where, until you're a 501 00:27:44,095 --> 00:27:49,105 seasoned CI/CD veteran, I feel like you don't… You may not look at a 502 00:27:49,105 --> 00:27:52,705 platform to evaluate it and think, let me spend a lot of time playing 503 00:27:52,705 --> 00:27:55,705 around with runners, deploying runners, figuring out how to maintain runners, 504 00:27:55,735 --> 00:27:57,005 like getting the performance right. 505 00:27:57,035 --> 00:28:01,155 Let me…" There is so much to it that, I mean, there are entire 506 00:28:01,155 --> 00:28:03,985 other CI/CD platforms where I d- I don't even recommend they use 507 00:28:03,985 --> 00:28:06,955 their runners, that they run their own, or that they use an outsourced 508 00:28:06,955 --> 00:28:09,975 service 'cause there's an entire ecosystem of outsourcing your runners. 509 00:28:10,475 --> 00:28:14,405 And you had an interesting blog post this year, actually this month, talking 510 00:28:14,405 --> 00:28:18,095 about benchmarks, and I thought this was really interesting because a- as you're 511 00:28:18,095 --> 00:28:22,615 probably saying here, the speed of runners is actually one of the most critical 512 00:28:23,115 --> 00:28:27,935 points to me in terms of evaluating a CI platform because you're gonna spend 513 00:28:27,935 --> 00:28:33,365 so much time waiting, and historically that has been infuriating for those of 514 00:28:33,365 --> 00:28:34,915 us that are managing these platforms. 515 00:28:35,355 --> 00:28:38,702 Because as someone who manages CI/CD, like, my goal is to get these things to 516 00:28:38,702 --> 00:28:42,882 run as fast as possible, because I want my developers to use it more and I am 517 00:28:42,902 --> 00:28:48,102 also kind of s- I'm not only the CI/CD custodian a lot of times, I feel like I am 518 00:28:48,102 --> 00:28:51,092 the advocate for people automating more. 519 00:28:51,102 --> 00:28:55,062 I'm always looking for toil to automate in teams, not just testing their code, but 520 00:28:55,072 --> 00:28:56,802 also all of the other maintenance tasks. 521 00:28:56,802 --> 00:29:01,202 Let's throw those into CI as well, make it a more universal automation platform. 522 00:29:01,582 --> 00:29:06,392 But also I'm also security… I kind of fit in that DevSecOps security 523 00:29:06,392 --> 00:29:09,202 realm where I'm wanting them to do more linting, I want them to do more 524 00:29:09,202 --> 00:29:12,052 security evalu- I'm, like, suggesting workflows all the time to them. 525 00:29:12,052 --> 00:29:14,052 "Hey, we should add this to the code. Hey, we should add this to code," 526 00:29:14,062 --> 00:29:18,152 even when I'm not a developer in the team, because I feel like developers, 527 00:29:18,492 --> 00:29:23,852 they spend so much time being told to focus on features and code maintenance 528 00:29:23,862 --> 00:29:27,112 of the actual platform that it's one of those, what's the analogy? 529 00:29:27,112 --> 00:29:30,802 The, the cobbler's children have no shoes or something like that. 530 00:29:30,812 --> 00:29:36,302 I always feel like our CI/CD platforms, if there's not advocates for them, you end up 531 00:29:36,312 --> 00:29:41,092 in this space, and Jenkins was the perfect example 15, t- 10 years ago, where it 532 00:29:41,092 --> 00:29:45,562 just became this hodgepodge of fragility, and it ended up being that one person 533 00:29:45,562 --> 00:29:48,372 in the team that knew how to maintain it and no one else could touch it. 534 00:29:48,682 --> 00:29:51,502 A- and good luck with the backups and restores of that mess, right? 535 00:29:51,512 --> 00:29:55,132 Like it was… There was always that precious Jenkins box under someone's 536 00:29:55,132 --> 00:29:58,302 desk that could not be restored successfully, so you could not touch it. 537 00:29:58,802 --> 00:30:02,872 And I hope for everyone that those years are gone and that we are at least using 538 00:30:02,922 --> 00:30:04,682 better maintained and supported platforms. 539 00:30:04,952 --> 00:30:09,120 But you do have this- a blog post talking about how much faster, the 540 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,330 runners build times, the cost of jobs. 541 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,070 I'm a big advocate of AMD and moving everything you can in your 542 00:30:17,070 --> 00:30:20,720 coding platforms to AMD because it's so much a better value on the 543 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,180 big clouds, and it's just cheaper. 544 00:30:23,460 --> 00:30:27,730 And then, and talking about some of the competitors and how, whether or 545 00:30:27,730 --> 00:30:30,680 not they're faster or slower, they also tend to be more expensive. 546 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,880 So I… For those listening, do everything you can to avoid running your own runners. 547 00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:40,810 Just because it's not a solved problem, and you're probably not better at making 548 00:30:40,810 --> 00:30:45,530 them faster than the professionals running these platforms that their 549 00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:47,120 whole job is to make them faster. 550 00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:50,770 Marko: Yeah, there's a whole team of full-time employed engineers 551 00:30:50,770 --> 00:30:54,280 that are making sure that the, it runs, everything is up to date. 552 00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:58,510 I don't know if you have already addressed that in your, with in your podcast before, 553 00:30:58,530 --> 00:31:02,090 but in last, I would say three to five months, especially in the last three 554 00:31:02,090 --> 00:31:08,090 months, there's like a huge amount of CVEs out there that are popping up every day. 555 00:31:08,150 --> 00:31:11,750 Typically, you would do some maintenance every month, and that would be fine. 556 00:31:11,790 --> 00:31:15,560 But here, we have every day there are new things popping up. 557 00:31:16,060 --> 00:31:19,350 I'm glad that, probably we will end up with a much more secure software 558 00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:22,800 in the end, but at the moment, it's so overwhelming to, to make 559 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,600 sure that all the CVEs and that your environment is fully patched. 560 00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:30,560 Because in the-- if agents can find security holes, that means that other 561 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,180 agents can also exploit your thing. 562 00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:35,520 So everything needs to be patched up, and buttoned up really quickly. 563 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,770 And having internal teams working on that, I think it's very 564 00:31:39,770 --> 00:31:42,230 expensive at, twenty twenty-six. 565 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:45,820 So it's much better to, to do that on scale, as we are doing as 566 00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:47,560 example for all of our customers. 567 00:31:48,056 --> 00:31:48,486 Bret: Yeah. 568 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:52,496 We have a question, "Are you guys taking contributors? I'd love to contribute. 569 00:31:52,536 --> 00:31:54,096 If yes, how can I get started?" 570 00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:55,196 Marko: Yeah, of course. 571 00:31:55,226 --> 00:31:56,676 We, we take contributors. 572 00:31:56,726 --> 00:31:57,696 It's very easy. 573 00:31:57,866 --> 00:32:02,586 you submit the PR and then some of our colleagues is going to review it 574 00:32:02,606 --> 00:32:07,546 and, getting the communication with with the person submitting a, a PR. 575 00:32:07,596 --> 00:32:10,976 And then if, if everything is looks good, then it passes all 576 00:32:10,976 --> 00:32:14,596 the C- CI, then it's merged and it becomes a part of the product. 577 00:32:15,036 --> 00:32:18,896 Marcus can maybe talk about when we open… When, we started with Sem 578 00:32:18,926 --> 00:32:23,006 AI, for example, immediately as open source and as we presented it to a 579 00:32:23,006 --> 00:32:27,126 couple of our customers, they were starting to submit PRs like week two. 580 00:32:27,496 --> 00:32:32,186 So it was very fun to, to watch how people are thinking about it and what were 581 00:32:32,196 --> 00:32:34,596 their usage scenarios and their comments. 582 00:32:35,096 --> 00:32:35,376 Marcos: Yeah. 583 00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,786 We are always accepting new things and also improvements that people 584 00:32:39,806 --> 00:32:41,246 see that we probably don't see. 585 00:32:41,736 --> 00:32:45,976 And you can just go to the repository that we have and follow the 586 00:32:45,976 --> 00:32:50,026 contributing documentation, and we will take a look on the pull request. 587 00:32:50,526 --> 00:32:50,956 Bret: Awesome. 588 00:32:51,446 --> 00:32:54,566 We got 37 contributors, so pretty cool. 589 00:32:54,926 --> 00:32:56,326 This is a question I didn't think to talk about. 590 00:32:56,336 --> 00:32:59,776 Do you, are you thinking about contributing to the CNCF? 591 00:32:59,776 --> 00:33:00,886 Are you gonna keep it for yourself? 592 00:33:01,386 --> 00:33:02,306 I don't know how to ask that question. 593 00:33:02,976 --> 00:33:06,436 Are you thinking about contributing it, or are, because it's your platform, 594 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:08,496 I guess it's a little, gonna be a little hard to do that, right? 595 00:33:08,496 --> 00:33:10,776 'Cause this isn't just a, a separate product, right? 596 00:33:11,276 --> 00:33:11,936 Marko: Exactly. 597 00:33:11,946 --> 00:33:13,776 It's a very big decision to make. 598 00:33:13,776 --> 00:33:18,106 So, so yeah, that's still under consideration, I would say. 599 00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:19,016 Yeah. 600 00:33:19,306 --> 00:33:19,916 Still discussion, yeah. 601 00:33:20,052 --> 00:33:22,932 Bret: it's one thing to do open core, but it's another thing when it's the whole 602 00:33:22,932 --> 00:33:24,662 platform and it's something like this. 603 00:33:24,662 --> 00:33:27,902 But yeah, we're all kind of, all over the map with CI, and I was 604 00:33:27,902 --> 00:33:31,582 gonna talk about earlier that I don't remember the last time… 605 00:33:31,762 --> 00:33:36,635 It-- I'd say 50% of the time I walk in as a consultant, I w- especially 606 00:33:36,635 --> 00:33:39,932 if, we're talking enterprise here, big companies, hundreds of developers 607 00:33:39,932 --> 00:33:43,662 if not thousands, it is very rare for me to see them have one CI. 608 00:33:44,082 --> 00:33:47,572 And one of the reasons for that, getting back to our agent story, 609 00:33:47,962 --> 00:33:51,612 one of the reasons for that is that everyone's trying to get off Jenkins. 610 00:33:51,622 --> 00:33:54,692 For five years or more, everybody's been trying to get off Jenkins. 611 00:33:55,022 --> 00:33:59,662 And the challenge always ends up, it's like an 80/20 thing where they can get 612 00:33:59,662 --> 00:34:04,972 that first 80% off in a reasonable amount of months, and then there's this 20% 613 00:34:04,982 --> 00:34:09,942 left that are these really complicated, multifaceted jobs that are insanely 614 00:34:09,962 --> 00:34:13,292 complex and should have never been created that way in the beginning to begin with. 615 00:34:13,662 --> 00:34:19,072 But they end up leaving them there because they just, they burn out on the migration. 616 00:34:19,082 --> 00:34:21,502 And so then now you have N plus one problems. 617 00:34:21,922 --> 00:34:25,232 And the, one of the biggest projects I was on in the last five years, it was a, 618 00:34:25,272 --> 00:34:28,032 it was an enterprise security company, and they had three different CIs. 619 00:34:28,422 --> 00:34:32,142 And they had the old CI, the CI they tried to migrate to, but 620 00:34:32,142 --> 00:34:33,512 then it didn't do everything. 621 00:34:33,752 --> 00:34:34,672 I think that was Drone. 622 00:34:34,692 --> 00:34:35,862 I'll pick on Drone for a second. 623 00:34:36,202 --> 00:34:39,072 and this was five years ago or four years ago, so this was pre-AI. 624 00:34:40,182 --> 00:34:43,942 And Drone didn't quite do everything they wanted to do, and so then they 625 00:34:43,942 --> 00:34:46,527 decided they had to migra- migrate off of that, and then they were still migrating 626 00:34:46,527 --> 00:34:49,587 off of Jenkins, and then there was the new platform, and then it was just… 627 00:34:50,087 --> 00:34:52,977 talking about the agent migration story, we, I feel like we could do a whole 628 00:34:52,977 --> 00:34:56,137 ep- episode and then demo on it, but it would be, it would be amazing for 629 00:34:56,137 --> 00:35:01,277 me to walk in and do a CI/CD migration project in a month and just, end to 630 00:35:01,277 --> 00:35:05,797 end, cut it off, and now we're new and improved all in a very short timeline. 631 00:35:05,797 --> 00:35:08,957 That, that almost feels like something I need to start selling as a product. 632 00:35:09,007 --> 00:35:11,407 I will migrate your CI for you in less than a month. 633 00:35:11,907 --> 00:35:12,557 Marko: Absolutely. 634 00:35:12,577 --> 00:35:12,897 Yeah. 635 00:35:12,967 --> 00:35:17,117 Yeah, that would be a very desirable service out there, I'm quite sure. 636 00:35:17,217 --> 00:35:22,047 But it's especially, migrating from the work, such a customizable tool 637 00:35:22,047 --> 00:35:27,567 like, like Jenkins, I don't think it's possible to really migrate only 638 00:35:27,567 --> 00:35:31,497 kind of like a one-on-one, because of that level of customization. 639 00:35:31,547 --> 00:35:35,567 I was involved in like maybe at least like 10 projects in my 640 00:35:35,567 --> 00:35:37,397 career that were all on Jenkins. 641 00:35:37,437 --> 00:35:40,277 We were never able to upgrade from Jenkins to Jenkins. 642 00:35:40,777 --> 00:35:42,327 Like from one version to another. 643 00:35:42,367 --> 00:35:46,227 Even not moving to another tool, it's just keep staying like, you know, up to 644 00:35:46,237 --> 00:35:50,207 date and current was not possible because at a certain moment somebody decided 645 00:35:50,207 --> 00:35:55,537 to use the plugin rightfully, but then that plugin was not available anymore or 646 00:35:55,537 --> 00:35:57,167 not supported and then at that version. 647 00:35:57,167 --> 00:36:01,387 So it's, we ended up like, really, sitting down and rethinking some of our flows, 648 00:36:01,437 --> 00:36:02,917 and some of the out- the pipelines. 649 00:36:02,957 --> 00:36:07,887 So I think that is necessary, but I also think that's an opportunity and good 650 00:36:07,887 --> 00:36:11,667 thing to think through because as you said, what we knew and what we thought 651 00:36:11,667 --> 00:36:15,757 it was right five years ago or even three years ago, maybe it's not right 652 00:36:15,957 --> 00:36:18,077 now because of like a lot of reasons. 653 00:36:18,177 --> 00:36:21,177 And then it's good to see, take some time and say "Huh, okay. 654 00:36:21,577 --> 00:36:25,907 If I have a blank slate, how would I like this to work?" And now with agents, 655 00:36:26,067 --> 00:36:30,847 if I can describe that, like in, in natural language and create like a very 656 00:36:30,847 --> 00:36:35,207 comprehensive like in documentation, again with the hel- help of agent, that 657 00:36:35,207 --> 00:36:41,607 can be configured in I think 10, 15, 20 minutes, with the, with the agent. 658 00:36:41,617 --> 00:36:45,267 So, so, yeah, I think it's a great time for engineering. 659 00:36:45,767 --> 00:36:49,727 Before we were spending a lot of time in that grind of typing code, learning 660 00:36:49,727 --> 00:36:51,487 configuration, clicking buttons. 661 00:36:51,987 --> 00:36:54,807 Here we have a lot of time to really think through some of our 662 00:36:54,807 --> 00:36:58,897 decisions, take a lot of things in consideration, try out hypothesis. 663 00:36:59,397 --> 00:37:03,937 So, so, for our team internally, that's really a blessing, where we 664 00:37:03,937 --> 00:37:07,917 can spend more time thinking through and, and discussing and then the, the 665 00:37:08,067 --> 00:37:10,497 groundwork is handed over to the machines 666 00:37:11,329 --> 00:37:15,059 Marcos: Actually, one of the test cases of Sem AI was migrating public 667 00:37:15,059 --> 00:37:20,289 repositories from Jenkins and GitHub Actions to Semaphore, just like a 668 00:37:20,329 --> 00:37:22,709 benchmark for the usefulness of the tool. 669 00:37:23,209 --> 00:37:23,659 Bret: Yeah. 670 00:37:23,769 --> 00:37:26,819 it's almost like those are like evals to test whether or not the agent 671 00:37:26,819 --> 00:37:28,349 can handle all that work, right? 672 00:37:28,639 --> 00:37:32,439 Marcos, I'm really, I really wanna dig into, the work that y'all 673 00:37:32,469 --> 00:37:36,449 have been doing to sort of make everything agent harness first. 674 00:37:36,839 --> 00:37:41,649 But I wanted to first talk about You c- you've prov- you've created a plugin 675 00:37:41,649 --> 00:37:44,939 system for Claude Code and Codex. 676 00:37:45,289 --> 00:37:47,929 Can you talk about that real quick, about everything that's included in 677 00:37:47,929 --> 00:37:52,739 there and why the decision was made to do things like commands still, even 678 00:37:52,739 --> 00:37:57,199 though that feels almost like, w- is that still cool anymore to do commands? 679 00:37:57,199 --> 00:38:00,079 I thought we were just vibe- vibing the skills at this point. 680 00:38:00,389 --> 00:38:01,769 So, can you walk me through all that? 681 00:38:01,769 --> 00:38:05,099 'Cause it looked like you have a lot of s- rigor there that is 682 00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:08,019 more than just someone simply publishing a free skill, for example. 683 00:38:08,099 --> 00:38:09,069 seems like a lot more than that. 684 00:38:09,569 --> 00:38:09,999 Marcos: Yeah. 685 00:38:10,109 --> 00:38:14,419 Initially the SemAI was just to be a CLI, so a simple CLI. 686 00:38:14,449 --> 00:38:16,029 We have the same CLI. 687 00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:20,659 It's a old one that we have, and we wanted to develop something that was agent first. 688 00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:25,979 So naturally, we started with a tool that was only communicating in JSON, 689 00:38:26,479 --> 00:38:30,889 so the agent could run it and pipe it for… to anything that it wanted. 690 00:38:31,389 --> 00:38:35,799 But then we discovered that MCP was a thing, was booming, and we 691 00:38:36,299 --> 00:38:38,209 wanted to support MCP as well. 692 00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:43,409 But one rigor that we took, one choice that we took was we wanted 693 00:38:43,409 --> 00:38:46,779 to have the same capabilities of the CLI on the MCP server. 694 00:38:47,279 --> 00:38:52,249 So basically we are using Viper and Cobra on the CLI, and we are 695 00:38:52,299 --> 00:38:56,109 basically using the commands that we have for the CLI on the MCP. 696 00:38:56,519 --> 00:39:01,369 It's a little bit of a hacky thing, but it's fully supported by the libraries, 697 00:39:01,409 --> 00:39:03,189 and you can check it on the repository. 698 00:39:03,609 --> 00:39:08,659 But you'll be a- always have the support that you have on the CLI on the MCP. 699 00:39:09,009 --> 00:39:13,309 And this is important because as Marko talked about on the start of the podcast, 700 00:39:13,699 --> 00:39:19,679 some tasks are easier to do using a CLI and the others are easy to do using MCP. 701 00:39:20,179 --> 00:39:25,619 For example, your agent may decide to pipe the output of SemAI into a Python 702 00:39:25,619 --> 00:39:27,749 script to extract something that it wants. 703 00:39:28,129 --> 00:39:30,679 This is something that I see daily right now. 704 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:35,489 And for some easy tasks, just asking a question or something for the, to 705 00:39:35,489 --> 00:39:37,909 the platform, it normally uses MCP. 706 00:39:38,409 --> 00:39:43,649 And we decide to document and make it easy for the agent to do the 707 00:39:43,649 --> 00:39:45,389 right thing, not do the wrong thing. 708 00:39:45,889 --> 00:39:49,379 So we have included descriptions, examples, and skills. 709 00:39:49,669 --> 00:39:52,609 Each one has a, a, a place, right? 710 00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:57,749 So basically the descriptions is basically what the surface level knowledge that 711 00:39:57,749 --> 00:39:59,509 the agent should have about that command. 712 00:40:00,009 --> 00:40:04,169 Each command has examples, so if the agent is, doesn't know how to do the, 713 00:40:04,179 --> 00:40:08,129 the command, it can look through, into the examples and basically 714 00:40:08,529 --> 00:40:10,239 figure it out from the examples. 715 00:40:10,539 --> 00:40:15,529 And the skills that most people are kind of abandoning, the complex 716 00:40:15,529 --> 00:40:20,519 ones at least, is where we have the cheat sheet for the agent. 717 00:40:20,979 --> 00:40:24,879 So basically it will be able to know what is all of the step 718 00:40:24,879 --> 00:40:26,779 that it needs to do for one task. 719 00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:32,629 So for example, if I want to migrate from Jenkins to Semaphore, it has a com- a 720 00:40:32,729 --> 00:40:37,309 skill that it can load, and it will have all of the thi- all of the things that 721 00:40:37,309 --> 00:40:42,249 it needs to do, and also will have the input from the developers of SemAI on how 722 00:40:42,249 --> 00:40:47,139 to do that, because we encounter a lot, lots of particularities with that flow. 723 00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:49,139 And then we are creating skills. 724 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,769 So basically when you install the plugin, you will always have the skills available 725 00:40:53,779 --> 00:40:59,379 for you, and your agent can choose if it will use the MCP or the S- CLI itself. 726 00:40:59,879 --> 00:41:04,359 And one nice feature of the plugin is that it auto-updates, so you always have 727 00:41:04,359 --> 00:41:06,439 the latest version when you install it. 728 00:41:06,939 --> 00:41:07,239 Bret: Wow. 729 00:41:07,739 --> 00:41:08,409 That's a lot. 730 00:41:08,619 --> 00:41:11,969 What about the agent makes it self-healing? 731 00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:16,939 I'm looking at this blog post on your journey to making the SemAI. 732 00:41:16,959 --> 00:41:19,589 This blog post was what pulled me in a little bit because there was a couple 733 00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:21,379 of things that I thought were different. 734 00:41:21,379 --> 00:41:24,809 One, yeah, you're doing the slash commands and wha- and it talks about why 735 00:41:24,819 --> 00:41:26,799 those matter and basically determinism. 736 00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:31,829 Embedding CI/CD best practices into the agents, which, I mean, for other 737 00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:33,559 CIs, I had to build that myself. 738 00:41:34,059 --> 00:41:37,269 Like, as a part of my courses I offered because, 'cause it's not really built 739 00:41:37,269 --> 00:41:39,589 into a lot of these tools to, to really… 740 00:41:40,089 --> 00:41:42,119 Like to me, best practices are an opinion. 741 00:41:42,319 --> 00:41:46,409 I used to say better practices because I always felt like, b-a- my best, I 742 00:41:46,409 --> 00:41:47,739 don't know what if I have is best. 743 00:41:47,739 --> 00:41:48,639 I mean, it's better. 744 00:41:49,049 --> 00:41:52,999 And I feel like the more opinionated you can get, like the better that might be. 745 00:41:53,009 --> 00:41:56,559 And so sometimes best practices can not always work for everyone. 746 00:41:56,569 --> 00:42:00,369 But it looks like you've got all of these different areas that you focused 747 00:42:00,369 --> 00:42:03,699 on with like the caching, 'cause that's a thing that like people often will 748 00:42:03,699 --> 00:42:06,679 screw up caching or they don't understand caching, so they're like leaving, 749 00:42:06,999 --> 00:42:10,889 they're leaving minutes on the table because they're not getting the most 750 00:42:10,899 --> 00:42:13,019 optimum performance out of their CI. 751 00:42:13,049 --> 00:42:15,989 And I've always felt like CIs are always trying to optimize for that and 752 00:42:15,989 --> 00:42:20,239 like they either go too far to make it too automated with the caching setup, 753 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,319 and then it becomes limiting sometimes because it's, you have to do it this way 754 00:42:23,319 --> 00:42:27,449 in order to use the cache or it doesn't work, or you have to become like an 755 00:42:27,459 --> 00:42:31,549 expert in how their caching works and how your tools would need caching and 756 00:42:31,549 --> 00:42:35,259 which tools you have that need caching, and how to avoid cache poisoning. 757 00:42:35,259 --> 00:42:37,789 And like there's just, even just in that world, I feel like there's 758 00:42:37,789 --> 00:42:39,729 someone's job dedicated to that, right? 759 00:42:39,749 --> 00:42:41,189 And y- to be an expert. 760 00:42:41,479 --> 00:42:44,819 But you have this other list of like the, the testing reports, the failure 761 00:42:44,819 --> 00:42:49,309 diagnosis, the artifact management, like how do we get these artifacts out of this 762 00:42:49,319 --> 00:42:50,919 build and into where they need to live? 763 00:42:51,419 --> 00:42:54,279 And so you've got all that built in there into the skills. 764 00:42:54,539 --> 00:42:56,579 Then you've got self-healing pipelines. 765 00:42:56,689 --> 00:42:59,669 Tell me about… I mean, you literally have this quote in here of, "Tell the 766 00:42:59,669 --> 00:43:03,509 agent, 'Work until the pipeline is green.'" Which I will point out is 767 00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:06,939 not the thing that I would normally actually type, because that is an 768 00:43:06,949 --> 00:43:10,289 outcome, and I'm often dumb with agents. 769 00:43:10,639 --> 00:43:11,699 I need like agent therapy. 770 00:43:11,699 --> 00:43:15,869 I'm often dumb, and I'm like giving them the detailed step-by-step because 771 00:43:15,869 --> 00:43:21,279 that's what we had to do two years ago, versus I'm, this is an outcome, right? 772 00:43:21,279 --> 00:43:25,589 This is like what I would tell the junior engineer who understands CI, but 773 00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:26,669 they're like, "What is my job here?" 774 00:43:26,669 --> 00:43:29,079 I'm like, "Your job is to work until the pipeline is green." 775 00:43:31,269 --> 00:43:33,779 And, and so I'm guessing you test this, right? 776 00:43:33,779 --> 00:43:34,869 Like this isn't just a demo. 777 00:43:34,869 --> 00:43:36,069 This is something that you verify. 778 00:43:36,069 --> 00:43:36,679 Tell me about that. 779 00:43:37,179 --> 00:43:39,969 Marcos: Yeah, basically the comments, the comments, the skills that we 780 00:43:39,969 --> 00:43:43,089 put is basically we compile all of the knowledge that we have. 781 00:43:43,089 --> 00:43:48,459 We got-- We have lots of customers and we, years of experience on the platform, and 782 00:43:48,459 --> 00:43:52,219 we try to make it available for the agent. 783 00:43:52,439 --> 00:43:55,389 But the, this, about this quote of just working until it's green 784 00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:57,449 is something that I do daily. 785 00:43:57,829 --> 00:44:02,719 And yes, I test that because it's basically SemAI has tools, commands 786 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,409 that the agent can run that will watch the pipeline until it has a result. 787 00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:11,199 It will extract the errors to the agent, and we will also be-- 788 00:44:11,319 --> 00:44:16,399 you also can basically go back in time and see errors as well. 789 00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,649 So for example, I can start my day just asking my agent how the pipeline, how the 790 00:44:21,649 --> 00:44:27,249 CI is going, and can go over all of the, the recent pull requests that we have. 791 00:44:27,659 --> 00:44:32,619 It can extract the errors, and this part of extracting the error is the 792 00:44:32,619 --> 00:44:35,699 difference between my agent gaming the system and just deleting the 793 00:44:35,699 --> 00:44:39,179 test and it actually fixing the test. 794 00:44:39,509 --> 00:44:44,409 So in these skills, we talk about adversarial reviews of the agents, and 795 00:44:44,409 --> 00:44:46,299 how to use SemAI to extract the error. 796 00:44:46,799 --> 00:44:51,299 And in general, it's a little bit of magic as we, we are having with, agents. 797 00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:56,559 So it's, it just works most of the time, ninety-nine percent of the time, because 798 00:44:56,689 --> 00:44:58,909 it will only be able to see the error. 799 00:44:59,269 --> 00:45:03,039 It will have the error, clearly labeled on its front, like it 800 00:45:03,039 --> 00:45:04,479 will just so see the error. 801 00:45:04,979 --> 00:45:09,599 And most of the time, it will just look because it tries, it can try on 802 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:11,429 the CI itself, it can push a commit. 803 00:45:11,919 --> 00:45:14,359 But if you want to test it, you can test it locally. 804 00:45:14,699 --> 00:45:19,099 And also, if you are not able to test it locally because the test is too 805 00:45:19,099 --> 00:45:23,729 big or because it needs something that only the CI has, we have the test box. 806 00:45:24,229 --> 00:45:28,609 So it's basically a job that you can spawn, and you can SSH into it, and 807 00:45:28,609 --> 00:45:32,669 you can give it that machine because it's ephemeral to the agent to, for 808 00:45:32,669 --> 00:45:34,289 it to do anything that it wants there. 809 00:45:34,769 --> 00:45:39,749 So it can try lots of different solutions and then just try to get 810 00:45:39,799 --> 00:45:41,859 that to the point that the CI is green 811 00:45:42,359 --> 00:45:43,289 Bret: Let's talk about that. 812 00:45:43,339 --> 00:45:45,629 let's dig into that 'cause we're, we're running a little long, but 813 00:45:45,629 --> 00:45:49,979 I think the Test Box scenario and having the agents doing that work is, 814 00:45:50,219 --> 00:45:52,429 to me, that's a really cool feature. 815 00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:57,289 I have been envisioning for a while, and I don't make CI/CDs, 816 00:45:57,289 --> 00:45:58,699 I just use them constantly. 817 00:45:59,089 --> 00:46:04,849 And I just, at the end of the day, I kinda just want my agent to constantly be 818 00:46:04,849 --> 00:46:07,169 running CI/CD, whatever that looks like. 819 00:46:07,169 --> 00:46:10,239 Whether that's just the testing workflows or maybe just the linting plus testing. 820 00:46:10,739 --> 00:46:14,719 But I kinda want things to constantly be happening without me having to tell it, 821 00:46:14,749 --> 00:46:18,129 "Okay, every time you make a change, make a commit and push, make a commit and push, 822 00:46:18,169 --> 00:46:24,629 make a commit and push." This just feels like a, That mindset around m- waiting 823 00:46:24,629 --> 00:46:31,739 until the git com- commit and push to do automation, it has its place, but it feels 824 00:46:31,739 --> 00:46:36,599 like in this world we need this whole new thing, and that thing is before that. 825 00:46:37,099 --> 00:46:39,579 And s- a lot of people, I mean, Dagger's been trying to 826 00:46:39,579 --> 00:46:40,799 solve this problem for years. 827 00:46:40,839 --> 00:46:41,859 Shout-out to Solomon Hykes. 828 00:46:42,169 --> 00:46:44,859 there's all these tools that are trying to make it easy for us to run 829 00:46:44,859 --> 00:46:50,169 tests locally and in, in CI, and it's always been a challenge to recreate 830 00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:54,449 the CI-like environment on a lo- on a random local machine that's a th- of one 831 00:46:54,449 --> 00:46:55,879 of three different operating systems. 832 00:46:56,289 --> 00:46:59,169 And that's, I think that's always been challenging for CI. 833 00:46:59,169 --> 00:47:03,499 I mean, a lot of CIs do it still, but this idea that my agent can just do 834 00:47:03,499 --> 00:47:06,499 this on my behalf, it can do it in the background, it can do it on my CI 835 00:47:06,549 --> 00:47:10,259 machines, but it has nothing really to do with me committing code, like, that 836 00:47:10,279 --> 00:47:13,049 is pretty cool, and I wanna hear it. 837 00:47:13,139 --> 00:47:15,679 And what, I don't know anything about how you do it, so I wanna 838 00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:17,259 dive in for maybe our last topic. 839 00:47:17,759 --> 00:47:20,949 Marko: So this is also one of the transformation in the agentic way of 840 00:47:20,949 --> 00:47:25,069 working, because previously when you were like, typing the code, then you 841 00:47:25,069 --> 00:47:29,379 know, you make a change, you run a couple of tests on your own machine, and then 842 00:47:29,379 --> 00:47:30,809 you're, "Aha, okay, I'm happy with it. 843 00:47:31,139 --> 00:47:34,719 Let's push this and let's run around the whole CI." But nowadays, 844 00:47:34,739 --> 00:47:38,639 that's not exactly… Nowadays, it's not your job anymore. 845 00:47:38,649 --> 00:47:42,119 Your job is to orchestrate two, three, five, four, five, how many, 846 00:47:42,169 --> 00:47:45,129 like what, how, like depending on the context that you can keep in your 847 00:47:45,139 --> 00:47:47,439 head, agents that are doing things. 848 00:47:47,499 --> 00:47:49,229 And then how do you mimic that thing? 849 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,049 It's very hard to have a local machine that is powerful 850 00:47:52,049 --> 00:47:54,089 enough to run all those things. 851 00:47:54,089 --> 00:47:59,529 So here there's like a really nice way to scale it, to use your… A benefit 852 00:47:59,549 --> 00:48:03,929 is that you're using a CI box, so that it's exactly the same as the CI box. 853 00:48:03,929 --> 00:48:07,729 That's an additional benefit, but it's, it becomes scalable and it keeps 854 00:48:07,729 --> 00:48:11,889 you in that same loop as, as before ju- just on a different scale because 855 00:48:11,899 --> 00:48:15,479 you, you have like a different you know, automation tool at your disposal 856 00:48:16,029 --> 00:48:16,319 Bret: All right. 857 00:48:16,329 --> 00:48:20,419 So you're checking out a Git repo and like I think a lot of us that 858 00:48:20,419 --> 00:48:24,799 are getting a little more advanced in agent-based workflows, you have a 859 00:48:24,799 --> 00:48:28,589 local clone and then you use either your harness or maybe yourself, you 860 00:48:28,589 --> 00:48:33,729 create gert- Git worktrees for, d- th- the each one of the agents has its own 861 00:48:33,729 --> 00:48:35,619 safe space essentially locally, right? 862 00:48:35,969 --> 00:48:40,519 And then you're, you have this plugin, you have the Semaphore plugin in 863 00:48:40,529 --> 00:48:42,019 your Claude Code or in your Codex. 864 00:48:42,019 --> 00:48:43,689 I think those are the two you support right now, right? 865 00:48:44,189 --> 00:48:51,879 And in that includes, does that, that plugin includes MCP skills, commands, 866 00:48:51,899 --> 00:48:55,169 and a CLI, or I guess it's using the CLI to do some of the stuff? 867 00:48:55,189 --> 00:48:55,469 Okay. 868 00:48:55,799 --> 00:48:57,589 I wanna make sure I, include everything it is, it has. 869 00:48:57,599 --> 00:49:01,239 So it has all this stuff and I guess those skills are essentially like 870 00:49:01,289 --> 00:49:04,559 providing it the documentation as well as the best practices and then 871 00:49:04,729 --> 00:49:07,369 how do you get it to behave this way? 872 00:49:07,379 --> 00:49:09,549 Are you prompting it specifically around Semaphore? 873 00:49:10,259 --> 00:49:14,079 Or when you ask it to do a feature, are you just saying, "I'd like 874 00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:15,219 you to work on this feature. 875 00:49:15,299 --> 00:49:16,929 I need you to implement this thing. 876 00:49:16,959 --> 00:49:19,179 Maybe I'm telling you about it or maybe I'm pointing you to my ticket 877 00:49:19,189 --> 00:49:21,499 or wherever, where the, where you need to get the information. 878 00:49:21,909 --> 00:49:25,019 And then while you're doing it, I need you to do these CI things." 879 00:49:25,019 --> 00:49:27,469 Like how exactly, what does the prompting look like there? 880 00:49:27,529 --> 00:49:31,359 I'm thinking about our audio listeners and like they're trying to imagine working 881 00:49:31,359 --> 00:49:34,849 through this workflow and how do they get Semaphore to do the coolest stuff here. 882 00:49:35,349 --> 00:49:35,709 Marcos: Yeah. 883 00:49:36,009 --> 00:49:39,949 For Semaphore doing the cool stuff is just install SemAI because it has 884 00:49:39,949 --> 00:49:43,659 already the prompts and everything that you for your agent to do. 885 00:49:43,959 --> 00:49:46,879 So for example, if you are using SemAI, SemAI, you can just ask the 886 00:49:46,879 --> 00:49:52,119 agent to create a entire organization or project, set up the Git connection 887 00:49:52,229 --> 00:49:54,309 to you so it can do everything there. 888 00:49:54,529 --> 00:49:59,029 And there is my part is like I have some documentation on some CLAUDE.md 889 00:49:59,909 --> 00:50:05,379 and other documentation on my repository to instruct it on how to 890 00:50:05,399 --> 00:50:10,879 do stuff and how to, basically give one machine like one machine to one 891 00:50:10,879 --> 00:50:12,369 agent, and it can do anything there. 892 00:50:12,859 --> 00:50:17,839 I can be pretty relaxed to, some point with the sandboxing there because I am 893 00:50:17,839 --> 00:50:22,929 just letting that sub-agent reuse that machine so my machine is not impacted. 894 00:50:23,429 --> 00:50:29,569 And also, from the side of Semaphore, I can put secrets on the CI and for 895 00:50:29,569 --> 00:50:33,349 example, I can create two, two projects and one be production and the other 896 00:50:33,349 --> 00:50:35,829 one being just a staging, for example. 897 00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:39,939 And I can give each agent access to some project because I can 898 00:50:39,949 --> 00:50:41,549 create multiple service accounts. 899 00:50:41,939 --> 00:50:45,279 This is the way that Semaphore does the, the things, and I can 900 00:50:45,489 --> 00:50:49,089 put different roles and different permissions to each service account. 901 00:50:49,589 --> 00:50:54,489 So I, I also had, one month ago, persistent agents that could do things 902 00:50:54,489 --> 00:50:58,419 for me, and they were working with the CI, but because they had specific 903 00:50:58,419 --> 00:51:03,459 permissions, they could not go outside of the sandbox that they had on the CI 904 00:51:03,459 --> 00:51:05,219 analysis that they were doing for me. 905 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,519 So for example, I just ask it for the SemAI to give me the, 906 00:51:09,539 --> 00:51:10,779 the status of the project. 907 00:51:11,279 --> 00:51:14,129 So I have a 33% pass rate because of IQ. 908 00:51:14,629 --> 00:51:19,629 and it's telling me some flaky tests that it detected and what I can do. 909 00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:22,859 So for example, I also have two requests that are red. 910 00:51:23,179 --> 00:51:25,779 I can ask it to run and fix this stuff. 911 00:51:26,089 --> 00:51:30,669 So while we are talking, please fix the red stuff. 912 00:51:31,169 --> 00:51:31,859 And this is it. 913 00:51:32,359 --> 00:51:36,529 Bret: So in your initial prompt for the feature, did you just add into the, 914 00:51:36,609 --> 00:51:40,439 what presumably was the big prompt on get started on this particular feature, 915 00:51:40,729 --> 00:51:46,419 you just said, "And while you're at it, run Semaphore test boxes until 916 00:51:46,419 --> 00:51:48,249 everything's green and then commit"? 917 00:51:48,299 --> 00:51:50,089 Is that kind of how you would do it? 918 00:51:50,589 --> 00:51:51,889 Marcos: Yes, I would do that. 919 00:51:51,919 --> 00:51:55,799 And because the plugin is installed, it will probably just use the SemAI. 920 00:51:56,069 --> 00:52:00,719 It may be sometimes, it will request for permission, because of the 921 00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,489 auto-classifier and stuff like that. 922 00:52:02,489 --> 00:52:05,999 But once you get permission to it, it will just use. 923 00:52:06,319 --> 00:52:12,729 And also, on the CLI and on the MCP, I don't see many people doing that, 924 00:52:12,779 --> 00:52:17,339 but we put some flags that you have to pass so that the auto-classifier will 925 00:52:17,839 --> 00:52:21,769 be more likely to prevent that command if you didn't give permission to it. 926 00:52:22,219 --> 00:52:27,759 So basically that, "Hey, I want-- I really want to delete this stuff." So 927 00:52:27,769 --> 00:52:32,059 normally from the test that I did, the auto-classifier holds the agent back 928 00:52:32,069 --> 00:52:34,279 if I don't really tell it to delete it. 929 00:52:34,749 --> 00:52:39,249 So we are trying to improve the tool every day because we use that. 930 00:52:39,946 --> 00:52:43,726 Bret: Do you update your Claude file or your agents file in the repo to 931 00:52:43,726 --> 00:52:49,446 say something like, every time you make an edit run, run a Semaphore test 932 00:52:49,456 --> 00:52:52,946 box to validate so that, that way you don't even… it's just sort of part 933 00:52:52,946 --> 00:52:57,176 of the initial prompt initially so that it always defaults to testing. 934 00:52:57,176 --> 00:53:00,026 'Cause that feels, this feels like the kind of thing that I'd always want running 935 00:53:00,026 --> 00:53:03,276 for every feature that my app is building. 936 00:53:03,326 --> 00:53:07,476 I would just-- I don't wanna ever have to say, "You also need to remember to run 937 00:53:07,476 --> 00:53:09,336 some testing before we make a commit." 938 00:53:09,836 --> 00:53:15,436 Marcos: So yes, I have put that on the claude.md, so just use SemAI. 939 00:53:15,626 --> 00:53:18,326 This is like for SemAI is the only rule that I have. 940 00:53:18,326 --> 00:53:22,476 So use SemAI to test stuff and r- sees the CI. 941 00:53:22,926 --> 00:53:26,526 And the other one is use sub-agents to not pollute the main context. 942 00:53:27,026 --> 00:53:28,466 Just basically that. 943 00:53:28,966 --> 00:53:29,606 Bret: Yeah. 944 00:53:29,606 --> 00:53:33,186 I mean, I'm putting this in perspective to what I currently have to do, right? 945 00:53:33,186 --> 00:53:37,806 'Cause I'm not using Semaphore yet, and I'm… I have to do things like I 946 00:53:37,806 --> 00:53:41,376 want it to, I want it to at least lint, or like you said, basic unit testing. 947 00:53:41,616 --> 00:53:44,776 And so then I have to make Makefiles or Docker Compose files or something 948 00:53:44,776 --> 00:53:47,476 else that's gonna run locally, and then I have to put in my agents 949 00:53:47,476 --> 00:53:49,046 file for each project a bunch of… 950 00:53:49,056 --> 00:53:49,826 a list of things. 951 00:53:49,976 --> 00:53:53,446 "Please always run these linters before," or, "Please determine 952 00:53:53,446 --> 00:53:55,766 which are the best linters for this language, and please always run them. 953 00:53:55,766 --> 00:54:01,166 And also run this thing to make s- if you edit ever a g- a, a workflow file, go run 954 00:54:01,166 --> 00:54:02,676 these linters on this thing." I have to… 955 00:54:02,766 --> 00:54:06,126 I mean, I have a list of things that I always want it to do on every 956 00:54:06,126 --> 00:54:11,456 change, and those are all really just CI things that I can't run locally, 957 00:54:11,826 --> 00:54:15,006 so I have to give it… I have to make sure those tools are installed. 958 00:54:15,316 --> 00:54:17,386 I have to give it permission to install those tools if I think they're 959 00:54:17,386 --> 00:54:20,136 not gonna be installed, which means my machine has to be very custom. 960 00:54:20,146 --> 00:54:22,296 It's just not… It is not ideal. 961 00:54:22,316 --> 00:54:25,216 I feel like I'm kind of working around the limitations of my own CI. 962 00:54:25,216 --> 00:54:29,916 And, a- and I was trying to… And I, and this is sort of me asking 963 00:54:29,966 --> 00:54:32,816 you all the questions of the things that I really wish my CI did. 964 00:54:33,316 --> 00:54:33,766 So, 965 00:54:33,946 --> 00:54:34,456 Marcos: Yeah 966 00:54:34,956 --> 00:54:35,276 Bret: okay. 967 00:54:35,276 --> 00:54:37,846 So we've got this thing r- creating these test boxes. 968 00:54:38,236 --> 00:54:43,316 are… I'm just curious, Are you able to… I'm assuming Docker is on there, 969 00:54:43,316 --> 00:54:46,856 so then I can spin up Kubernetes clusters and I can do all those things, right? 970 00:54:46,856 --> 00:54:48,356 That's all n- very normal runner stuff. 971 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:49,120 Marko: Absolutely. 972 00:54:49,340 --> 00:54:49,620 Yep. 973 00:54:50,006 --> 00:54:53,326 Yeah, and then everything that you described, Bret, it's like what this 974 00:54:53,326 --> 00:54:56,386 is what we typically see that our customers put in their pipeline. 975 00:54:56,832 --> 00:54:57,262 Bret: Yeah 976 00:54:57,486 --> 00:54:59,486 Marko: And it's even better than it, when it is part of the pi- 977 00:54:59,706 --> 00:55:03,336 pipeline, Because if you tell it to the agent, then it's it will do it, 978 00:55:03,666 --> 00:55:05,606 but it's not really algorithmic. 979 00:55:06,106 --> 00:55:08,506 When you put it in a pl- pipeline, it has to be done 980 00:55:08,516 --> 00:55:09,776 because then that's algorithmic. 981 00:55:09,956 --> 00:55:12,236 That's not probabilistic like a, like an LLM. 982 00:55:12,266 --> 00:55:15,546 They are great, getting better every day, but still, this 983 00:55:15,566 --> 00:55:17,026 is, for sure it will happen 984 00:55:18,106 --> 00:55:22,026 Marcos: we said, most of the s- stuff that is, it's doing on its 985 00:55:22,026 --> 00:55:24,056 own is described on the skills. 986 00:55:24,453 --> 00:55:27,903 We have the guide on how to debug pipelines, on how to deploy, 987 00:55:28,223 --> 00:55:33,053 fixing flake tests, even migrating from GitHub actions to Semaphore. 988 00:55:33,963 --> 00:55:39,053 So we have lots of skills of curated procedures that we do. 989 00:55:39,483 --> 00:55:44,353 So on Semaphore, we deploy like at least three times a day to production, and we 990 00:55:44,353 --> 00:55:49,173 have some spiky days, some bursty days that is more than 20 deploys on that day. 991 00:55:49,633 --> 00:55:53,543 So we have some knowledge on how to do stuff on that. 992 00:55:53,633 --> 00:55:55,863 So for example, you can read the skills. 993 00:55:55,883 --> 00:56:01,313 I, invite the audience to also go and view what is going on with the skills. 994 00:56:01,593 --> 00:56:05,213 We have a list of commands and steps that you should do, for the agent to do 995 00:56:05,653 --> 00:56:07,793 and how to get the result that you want. 996 00:56:07,923 --> 00:56:11,803 So that's why you can just ask it to do stuff because it already 997 00:56:12,063 --> 00:56:15,323 has the documentation, the step-by-step on how to do that 998 00:56:15,823 --> 00:56:16,283 Bret: Yeah. 999 00:56:16,323 --> 00:56:19,323 And so for those not watching, the, I mean, we're staring at the open 1000 00:56:19,323 --> 00:56:23,303 source SemAI repo, and there's what looks like dozens of skills there. 1001 00:56:23,633 --> 00:56:27,463 I mean, for my GitHub Actions, I only have one giant skill, so now I'm 1002 00:56:27,463 --> 00:56:28,873 realizing I'm already doing it wrong. 1003 00:56:29,303 --> 00:56:31,753 Because this is like, these are very specific. 1004 00:56:31,753 --> 00:56:34,643 They're very detailed, but they're also very specific, and why not? 1005 00:56:34,653 --> 00:56:36,373 Like, why shove it all into one skill? 1006 00:56:36,383 --> 00:56:36,533 Why 1007 00:56:36,605 --> 00:56:36,865 Marcos: Yeah. 1008 00:56:37,215 --> 00:56:41,955 And we also have the golden goose here, is the sem-ai watch. 1009 00:56:42,445 --> 00:56:44,145 So this is what enables the loop. 1010 00:56:44,495 --> 00:56:47,245 basically it's a comb that will check your pipeline. 1011 00:56:47,315 --> 00:56:48,425 It's simple. 1012 00:56:48,465 --> 00:56:51,435 It's very simple, but sometimes the simple thing is what we miss. 1013 00:56:51,935 --> 00:56:54,955 So basically it will watch your pipeline run. 1014 00:56:55,455 --> 00:56:58,765 When it's green, it will get back to your agent, so that way he 1015 00:56:58,765 --> 00:57:04,005 can loop without needing to have the AI harness loop it by itself 1016 00:57:04,505 --> 00:57:07,655 Bret: So in this scenario, the main agent would probably start a sub-agent 1017 00:57:07,665 --> 00:57:11,165 with this watch and the command in the background if it's doing it right, and 1018 00:57:11,165 --> 00:57:15,105 then it-- this would allow my agent to work on consecutive features one 1019 00:57:15,105 --> 00:57:19,485 after the other, or decide stopping points, I guess, if I gave it some more 1020 00:57:19,485 --> 00:57:23,155 detailed instruction to stop halfway or whatever and test that particular 1021 00:57:23,155 --> 00:57:25,495 function, run it through the unit test. 1022 00:57:25,495 --> 00:57:28,655 Yeah, that's kinda how I imagine that we would get these agents to do 1023 00:57:28,655 --> 00:57:30,395 is it's just this automatic thing. 1024 00:57:30,395 --> 00:57:31,615 It's happening in the background. 1025 00:57:31,625 --> 00:57:35,995 I'm not fully aware of how many times it's run tests or whether I 1026 00:57:35,995 --> 00:57:38,925 need to go look at a page and stare at it waiting for the green button. 1027 00:57:39,395 --> 00:57:41,855 And I am curious, a quick question. 1028 00:57:42,115 --> 00:57:43,385 You talked about the profiles. 1029 00:57:43,395 --> 00:57:46,165 This is a subtle little security conversation. 1030 00:57:46,225 --> 00:57:49,425 you talked about the patches that you're creating for each… What's that? 1031 00:57:49,925 --> 00:57:52,475 Marcos: Roles, the service accounts basically on the Semaphore. 1032 00:57:52,525 --> 00:57:55,515 Bret: Yeah, these different accounts essentially, like how does that 1033 00:57:55,525 --> 00:57:57,705 work in your harness specifically? 1034 00:57:57,705 --> 00:57:59,825 Okay, because I feel like this is really important for people to 1035 00:57:59,825 --> 00:58:05,615 understand that ideally, we wanna isolate our, and sandbox our agents 1036 00:58:05,635 --> 00:58:07,355 and give them only the keys they need. 1037 00:58:07,725 --> 00:58:13,425 And right now, one of my biggest frustrations is we didn't… Like the 1038 00:58:13,425 --> 00:58:18,425 personal access tokens and the, and all the ways we provide our local CLIs and 1039 00:58:18,425 --> 00:58:23,665 tooling to access ser- services on the internet, like it wasn't really designed 1040 00:58:23,675 --> 00:58:28,425 for a world where we have disposable, always running agents, and like we need 1041 00:58:28,425 --> 00:58:31,765 these things to be ephemeral, and they need-- They might need to be short-lived, 1042 00:58:31,775 --> 00:58:35,315 or they need to be managed in a way where I can make more than one, right? 1043 00:58:35,315 --> 00:58:38,295 'Cause I remember when Docker it was a long time before Docker Hub had 1044 00:58:38,325 --> 00:58:39,905 anything other than your password, right? 1045 00:58:39,905 --> 00:58:43,805 And then when `they made it, when they created PATs, they were very limited. 1046 00:58:44,045 --> 00:58:46,865 They have read or read-write across everything. 1047 00:58:47,005 --> 00:58:48,875 It's sort of like a giant blast radius. 1048 00:58:49,195 --> 00:58:53,805 And now, when we're in this agent world, I think what you just described is probably 1049 00:58:53,805 --> 00:58:58,908 what, what I'm imagining is I really want this agent on this work tree to 1050 00:58:58,908 --> 00:59:00,918 really have the smallest access possible. 1051 00:59:00,988 --> 00:59:03,078 I don't want them to have admin on my repo. 1052 00:59:03,258 --> 00:59:08,038 I only maybe need them to be able to git and git commit and push, and then run CI. 1053 00:59:08,418 --> 00:59:12,798 And I only want them to run the CI for that particular repo, and 1054 00:59:13,278 --> 00:59:16,958 I need to give them that key, but how do I give, how do I do that? 1055 00:59:17,458 --> 00:59:19,178 Or how do you do that, I guess, specifically, 'cause this is 1056 00:59:19,178 --> 00:59:20,138 maybe not a Semaphore thing. 1057 00:59:20,138 --> 00:59:21,238 It's maybe more how you work. 1058 00:59:21,598 --> 00:59:25,838 How do you do that without it being, like how the other 1059 00:59:25,838 --> 00:59:27,088 agents on your machine get that? 1060 00:59:27,098 --> 00:59:29,848 Are you just doing environment variables per shell? 1061 00:59:29,848 --> 00:59:30,998 Is that kind of how you're doing it? 1062 00:59:30,998 --> 00:59:32,828 Or how do you approach that? 1063 00:59:33,328 --> 00:59:33,678 Marcos: Yeah. 1064 00:59:33,808 --> 00:59:38,428 What I would say, is that you should, for example, start way more restrict 1065 00:59:38,428 --> 00:59:43,428 than what I'm doing currently, because this is in scenario, I have lots of 1066 00:59:43,928 --> 00:59:49,058 tools, tool calls that I have already whitelisted for my agents, right? 1067 00:59:49,378 --> 00:59:52,128 So you should start small, don't whitelist anything or 1068 00:59:52,168 --> 00:59:54,548 just do some basis, basic stuff. 1069 00:59:55,048 --> 01:00:00,948 On Semaphore, you can create service accounts and you can define roles for each 1070 01:00:00,948 --> 01:00:03,158 service account on each project, right? 1071 01:00:03,508 --> 01:00:07,788 I can put it as a reader or as a admin or anything that I 1072 01:00:07,788 --> 01:00:09,518 want on my specific project. 1073 01:00:10,018 --> 01:00:13,658 You can basically control more, most of this stuff this way. 1074 01:00:13,658 --> 01:00:17,308 So if you want a agent that just wants to read the stuff 1075 01:00:17,308 --> 01:00:19,208 on Semaphore, you can put it. 1076 01:00:19,628 --> 01:00:23,508 Most of the time you are okay with that because you just want to read the, 1077 01:00:23,518 --> 01:00:28,618 the pipeline status and then you, if you are using GitOps, you are going 1078 01:00:28,628 --> 01:00:33,608 to commit another thing on GitHub and it will spawn a-another pipeline. 1079 01:00:34,108 --> 01:00:37,398 And you can basically, like the idea here is you can mix and match 1080 01:00:37,498 --> 01:00:42,238 permissions and each service account will have a token, and that token 1081 01:00:42,288 --> 01:00:43,768 is used to authenticate on SemAI. 1082 01:00:44,988 --> 01:00:52,108 what I currently have, right, is basically I have one token that has less privilege 1083 01:00:52,148 --> 01:00:56,508 than-- it cannot basically hit anything that would damage my account or my 1084 01:00:56,508 --> 01:00:57,818 Semaphore, organization in this case. 1085 01:00:58,318 --> 01:01:01,848 because it was like with time and I put more restrict-re-restrictions on it. 1086 01:01:02,348 --> 01:01:05,538 but basically I just let it run, because it cannot do anything. 1087 01:01:05,618 --> 01:01:07,478 It cannot deploy to production. 1088 01:01:07,478 --> 01:01:11,028 It cannot mess with any production related projects. 1089 01:01:11,498 --> 01:01:13,608 It can only do stuff on staging. 1090 01:01:14,108 --> 01:01:20,148 And for example, staging is something that I think is more important in this 1091 01:01:20,148 --> 01:01:24,618 case because I can let it have more reign over the staging environment. 1092 01:01:25,028 --> 01:01:28,948 It can do more stuff, but I am always the gate to production when 1093 01:01:28,958 --> 01:01:30,458 we is talking about deployment. 1094 01:01:30,958 --> 01:01:31,338 Bret: Yeah. 1095 01:01:31,838 --> 01:01:33,858 Is this coming in through an environment variable on your machine? 1096 01:01:33,868 --> 01:01:35,098 Is that how this is in your shell? 1097 01:01:35,598 --> 01:01:36,348 Marcos: This one, yeah. 1098 01:01:36,468 --> 01:01:40,238 This, this whole shell is just one environment variable 1099 01:01:40,238 --> 01:01:42,038 of the token, basically. 1100 01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:42,440 Bret: Yeah. 1101 01:01:42,810 --> 01:01:44,460 I just had a live show last week. 1102 01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:50,010 We talked about nono, nono.sh, and that's a sandboxing technology, and I 1103 01:01:50,010 --> 01:01:51,990 had one of the founders on the show. 1104 01:01:52,420 --> 01:01:54,260 And I'm a big fan of that. 1105 01:01:54,340 --> 01:01:57,640 So I'm just, for those listening, like if you're trying to think about how 1106 01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,700 to isolate your tokens as well as your agents, and Claude Code has this sandbox 1107 01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:05,110 thing built in, but the, the one of the cool things that nono can do is you can 1108 01:02:05,110 --> 01:02:09,850 actually build out profiles that could include these kind of secrets, these 1109 01:02:09,850 --> 01:02:14,580 kind of paths for things like Semaphore, as well as egress rules that say like 1110 01:02:14,580 --> 01:02:20,220 you can only access package managers and GitHub and then Semaphore, and that these 1111 01:02:20,220 --> 01:02:21,560 are only things you can do or whatever. 1112 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,120 And then you, when you start up Claude Code, this is kind 1113 01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,030 of the thing I'm wanting to do. 1114 01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,280 I haven't actually set it up yet 'cause I'm using nono today, but to wrap 1115 01:02:29,350 --> 01:02:33,560 my Claude Code and my OpenCode and my Py, my three favorite harnesses. 1116 01:02:33,850 --> 01:02:38,470 And I have found that Claude Code's built-in sandboxing, I find it lacking. 1117 01:02:38,740 --> 01:02:42,880 So, the nono that wraps around it allows me to give it file paths and environment 1118 01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:48,440 variables and secrets securely outside of my harness, and then I can just sort 1119 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,650 of feed all that in so that I don't have to copy and paste things into 1120 01:02:52,650 --> 01:02:54,290 each shell every time I'm running them. 1121 01:02:54,290 --> 01:02:58,660 So I don't know if that's a pro tip, but you can use nono in this way to probably 1122 01:02:58,660 --> 01:03:01,200 make a lot of this CI/CD stuff easier. 1123 01:03:01,260 --> 01:03:05,690 Like for me, it's like my default GitHub command line has my key, which 1124 01:03:05,690 --> 01:03:09,460 has every repo that I have access to, and I don't want my agents to do that. 1125 01:03:09,820 --> 01:03:13,160 Similar for like any of my artifact storage or my CI. 1126 01:03:13,430 --> 01:03:16,330 Like I kinda want, especially as a consultant, like I have access 1127 01:03:16,330 --> 01:03:18,910 to lots of different things, and I don't want the blast radius there. 1128 01:03:19,350 --> 01:03:23,660 So I get nervous, and I end up using nono to try to basically it removes 1129 01:03:23,660 --> 01:03:26,410 a lot of those secrets and removes access to those things, so it doesn't 1130 01:03:26,410 --> 01:03:28,760 have access to my default tokens. 1131 01:03:29,230 --> 01:03:33,040 Shout out to the Agentic DevOps Guild that I'm running because they're 1132 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:35,640 the ones that we kinda worked out a lot of these ideas around how to 1133 01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:37,710 use these for DevOps specifically. 1134 01:03:37,710 --> 01:03:41,140 Like, how do I avoi- avoid Terraform, the agent having access 1135 01:03:41,140 --> 01:03:41,730 to GitHub, Terraform, Docker Hub, 1136 01:03:44,410 --> 01:03:48,250 Semaphore, AWS, and every key that I have for the company, how do I 1137 01:03:48,250 --> 01:03:51,050 avoid it from nuking everything every time I spin up Claude Code? 1138 01:03:51,060 --> 01:03:54,370 'Cause I know a lot of us are dangerously skipping permissions. 1139 01:03:54,390 --> 01:03:57,730 I know I am, and that's bec- that's because we're tired of hitting the 1140 01:03:57,730 --> 01:04:02,040 Yes key and, the, the, the Enter key for every yes and request it has. 1141 01:04:02,050 --> 01:04:05,670 So if we're all doing that, like my pro tip, if you haven't heard that episode 1142 01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:07,910 before this one, is to go check out nono. 1143 01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:08,670 Add that to Semaphore. 1144 01:04:09,140 --> 01:04:11,000 Now you're gonna, now you're gonna level up your DevOps. 1145 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,620 You're gonna… You're now DevSecOps because you're using a sandbox. 1146 01:04:13,620 --> 01:04:16,910 That's maybe not the entire requirements for being DevSecOps, but that's an 1147 01:04:16,910 --> 01:04:20,410 important step that I think a lot of us aren't comfortable with yet. 1148 01:04:20,410 --> 01:04:21,690 But nono's really easy to use. 1149 01:04:21,690 --> 01:04:23,350 I feel like I'm doing an ad for them in the middle of this show. 1150 01:04:23,660 --> 01:04:26,630 And they'll work great with Semaphore for isolating some of these workflows. 1151 01:04:27,130 --> 01:04:27,660 Very cool. 1152 01:04:28,025 --> 01:04:30,805 Marcos: You can also do something interesting with Semaphore because you 1153 01:04:30,805 --> 01:04:33,025 can put the secrets on the project itself. 1154 01:04:33,525 --> 01:04:39,005 So for example, we can put the GitHub access tokens and other platforms 1155 01:04:39,005 --> 01:04:41,285 that you are using on the Semaphore. 1156 01:04:41,695 --> 01:04:45,685 And you can, for example, if you really want to be very, very secure about that, 1157 01:04:46,035 --> 01:04:51,555 you can create one project per agent or per activity that you are doing. 1158 01:04:51,925 --> 01:04:54,405 So you can basically put the secrets on Semaphore. 1159 01:04:54,575 --> 01:04:58,395 It will only have access to those secrets because you can restrict it to 1160 01:04:58,395 --> 01:05:02,945 only working on the ephemeral machine and it can only have access to that. 1161 01:05:03,415 --> 01:05:08,745 And that with the service account will be basically a really good sandbox to 1162 01:05:08,745 --> 01:05:10,715 keep your agent in check basically. 1163 01:05:11,215 --> 01:05:14,255 And also for deployments, you can put a lot of s- specific, 1164 01:05:14,345 --> 01:05:15,735 preconditions on Semaphore. 1165 01:05:16,235 --> 01:05:20,695 So if you are deploying from Semaphore, you can prevent rogue agents from 1166 01:05:20,695 --> 01:05:22,365 deploying stuff that it, they shouldn't. 1167 01:05:22,865 --> 01:05:23,395 Bret: Very cool. 1168 01:05:23,895 --> 01:05:29,195 Yeah, CI/CD is turning out to be a really, a really good place for 1169 01:05:29,365 --> 01:05:33,815 attackers to find weak spots in all of our, in all of our automation. 1170 01:05:33,815 --> 01:05:37,445 And I feel like, prompt injection, between prompt injection and just general 1171 01:05:37,445 --> 01:05:41,005 supply chain attacks, I feel like we're, our CI is constantly under threat. 1172 01:05:41,005 --> 01:05:46,085 So anytime I can level up the security or run, like security audits. 1173 01:05:46,095 --> 01:05:46,876 Is Yeah, that's cool. 1174 01:05:46,876 --> 01:05:48,526 I mean, The fact that it's built in is nice. 1175 01:05:48,546 --> 01:05:50,906 The fact that I don't have to go find a different solution to plug 1176 01:05:50,906 --> 01:05:54,196 into my CI that makes this kind of possible is probably where everyone 1177 01:05:54,196 --> 01:05:55,626 else is gonna go eventually too. 1178 01:05:55,626 --> 01:05:59,246 I think this is, as, as… I just wanna stay in my harness. 1179 01:05:59,456 --> 01:06:03,886 I don't wanna have to wait any more than, than the prompts require me to wr- wait. 1180 01:06:04,256 --> 01:06:05,586 I wanna reduce the number of steps. 1181 01:06:05,586 --> 01:06:10,386 I feel like in a lot of ways, agents are helping us untangle the 1182 01:06:10,386 --> 01:06:13,456 last 10 to 15 years of complexity. 1183 01:06:13,516 --> 01:06:16,626 As someone in the cloud native ecosystem and has been teaching Docker and 1184 01:06:16,636 --> 01:06:19,906 Kubernetes for a decade, to me, those tools were, especially Kubernetes, 1185 01:06:19,936 --> 01:06:21,706 was always primarily for operators. 1186 01:06:21,976 --> 01:06:25,026 It wasn't meant to be a tool for developers. 1187 01:06:25,056 --> 01:06:28,636 And also, a lot of the teams I would work with would have a couple people 1188 01:06:28,636 --> 01:06:32,346 that were well-versed in CI/CD, but not everyone needed to be a CI/CD expert. 1189 01:06:32,846 --> 01:06:36,206 But something happened over the last decade where, I don't know if we got 1190 01:06:36,206 --> 01:06:40,376 distracted by the name full stack developer or if the, if somehow people 1191 01:06:40,376 --> 01:06:44,646 got confused about what DevOps really is, but somehow at some point, the 1192 01:06:44,646 --> 01:06:49,016 industry decided that developers are responsible for everything, which I feel 1193 01:06:49,016 --> 01:06:53,816 like is a sad state of things where you can't just focus on being an excellent 1194 01:06:53,826 --> 01:06:57,696 front-end developer or an excellent architect of applications, but now you 1195 01:06:57,706 --> 01:07:02,956 have to know the CI, all the sa- CI/CD paradigms, all of the operations, all 1196 01:07:02,956 --> 01:07:04,406 of the cloud infrastructure management. 1197 01:07:04,446 --> 01:07:07,596 You have to know Terraform, you have to know Kubernetes and Docker, and 1198 01:07:07,596 --> 01:07:10,496 oh yeah, and you also gotta be this great developer, and I always felt 1199 01:07:10,496 --> 01:07:12,216 like that was completely unrealistic. 1200 01:07:12,436 --> 01:07:17,946 And now what I'm seeing is, as me and my friends talk about how we talk about a 1201 01:07:17,946 --> 01:07:20,246 couple of things that aren't necessarily great, like one, when was the last time 1202 01:07:20,246 --> 01:07:22,296 we actually looked at code besides this? 1203 01:07:22,346 --> 01:07:23,986 When was the last time I actually wrote some code? 1204 01:07:24,216 --> 01:07:24,956 It's been a while. 1205 01:07:25,136 --> 01:07:27,916 And two, when was the last time I actually learned something 1206 01:07:27,916 --> 01:07:30,536 new without the agent involved? 1207 01:07:30,586 --> 01:07:33,526 Like, when was the last time that I learned a new tool just by 1208 01:07:33,536 --> 01:07:36,966 hand, or learned a new language, or learned a new platform? 1209 01:07:37,166 --> 01:07:40,436 It's actually, we were talking about it, that we're actually worried 1210 01:07:40,436 --> 01:07:45,116 that these agents are making us so nimble and it's real- It's, to me, 1211 01:07:45,116 --> 01:07:48,966 I think it's just a sign that we all love this tech, but it was too much. 1212 01:07:48,966 --> 01:07:50,536 There was too much we had to know. 1213 01:07:50,536 --> 01:07:52,486 There was too much we all felt we had to learn. 1214 01:07:52,876 --> 01:07:57,856 And this is allowing us to do things like be an expert in CI/CD, be an 1215 01:07:57,856 --> 01:08:01,976 expert in automation, be an expert in Kubernetes without having to 1216 01:08:01,976 --> 01:08:03,236 know the Kubernetes command line. 1217 01:08:03,666 --> 01:08:05,456 And I don't know where this is all going. 1218 01:08:05,466 --> 01:08:08,096 I don't know if in three years we're gonna wish that we hadn't done all 1219 01:08:08,096 --> 01:08:12,946 this and, we- we're all Luddites in our understanding of command line tools, but 1220 01:08:13,366 --> 01:08:17,576 I am enjoying very much not having to remember all the command line nuances 1221 01:08:17,586 --> 01:08:21,896 of the dozens of command line tools I think I have to use in a given week. 1222 01:08:22,256 --> 01:08:23,786 It's just, it's gotten crazy. 1223 01:08:23,786 --> 01:08:26,774 Like 15, 20 years ago we had very few tools. 1224 01:08:27,104 --> 01:08:28,774 We were all in one editor. 1225 01:08:28,994 --> 01:08:30,854 On Windows side, we barely even had terminals. 1226 01:08:31,224 --> 01:08:36,904 So I'm just sort of soaking, basking in the amazement of this moment where 1227 01:08:37,304 --> 01:08:39,944 agents are allowing us to implement these things very quickly and to 1228 01:08:39,954 --> 01:08:42,094 get very productive pretty quickly. 1229 01:08:42,374 --> 01:08:45,954 I just hope they don't go away because… Or that we don't lose access to them. 1230 01:08:45,954 --> 01:08:48,304 While we were talking before the show about, you gotta have 1231 01:08:48,304 --> 01:08:49,464 a backup subscription now. 1232 01:08:49,464 --> 01:08:52,424 Your agents have to be redundant, so Claude Code isn't… We had 1233 01:08:52,424 --> 01:08:53,704 a Claude Code outage yesterday. 1234 01:08:53,704 --> 01:08:55,774 Claude Code can't be your only subscription. 1235 01:08:55,774 --> 01:08:58,424 You have to have some other backup plan, whether that's OpenRouter or 1236 01:08:59,054 --> 01:09:02,634 ChatGPT or, yeah, or Kimi or whatever your favorite subscription is. 1237 01:09:02,634 --> 01:09:03,464 You gotta have something there. 1238 01:09:03,964 --> 01:09:04,264 Okay. 1239 01:09:04,654 --> 01:09:06,084 This has been really cool to dive in. 1240 01:09:06,114 --> 01:09:09,284 I've been really interested in how this all works, and I do think between 1241 01:09:09,284 --> 01:09:14,084 your advanced plugin model and the agent, having all those different 1242 01:09:14,084 --> 01:09:17,404 skills and all the different commands, as well as the fact that it is sort 1243 01:09:17,404 --> 01:09:20,364 of empowered with the test boxes, I think that's a really cool advantage. 1244 01:09:20,684 --> 01:09:24,014 'Cause someone earlier was asking, "What are your differences between 1245 01:09:24,014 --> 01:09:27,624 you and other CI/CD platforms?" And you're welcome to answer that question. 1246 01:09:27,624 --> 01:09:30,454 We always get the comparison question in a show about a product. 1247 01:09:30,814 --> 01:09:33,484 But I will just answer that question myself and say, as someone who operates 1248 01:09:33,484 --> 01:09:38,174 CI/CDs, those two things, like the plugin model for those harnesses and 1249 01:09:38,574 --> 01:09:43,134 the test boxes to me with, in just one hour of looking at Semaphore are, 1250 01:09:43,284 --> 01:09:46,684 to me, the advantages there, as well as it just being open source and I 1251 01:09:46,684 --> 01:09:48,254 can run it myself if I feel like it. 1252 01:09:48,704 --> 01:09:53,084 l- like that, that seems like a, th- the true futuristic agent n- 1253 01:09:53,384 --> 01:09:55,564 agent native way to operate a CI. 1254 01:09:55,564 --> 01:09:58,134 So I don't know if you can say it better, but 1255 01:09:58,634 --> 01:10:00,724 Marko: No, you, no, you did a great job. 1256 01:10:00,764 --> 01:10:01,564 Thank you so much. 1257 01:10:01,664 --> 01:10:01,854 Yeah 1258 01:10:01,862 --> 01:10:03,402 Bret: But yeah, you can hire me anytime. 1259 01:10:03,452 --> 01:10:04,202 I'll be your DevRel. 1260 01:10:04,502 --> 01:10:07,232 but yeah, this is r- it's amazing to see how far you all have come 1261 01:10:07,232 --> 01:10:08,572 in a year since you open sourced. 1262 01:10:08,582 --> 01:10:11,682 This is just a lot that you've done, and it's pretty impressive. 1263 01:10:12,122 --> 01:10:13,772 So what's next? 1264 01:10:13,812 --> 01:10:14,472 What are you working on? 1265 01:10:14,942 --> 01:10:17,032 What are the hot tips for the rest of this year? 1266 01:10:17,532 --> 01:10:17,972 Marko: Yeah. 1267 01:10:17,982 --> 01:10:23,572 So, so now that we have this interface to the agents, we want to get to the basics. 1268 01:10:24,072 --> 01:10:28,232 And it's again, focused on, like really doubling down on developers' productivity 1269 01:10:28,352 --> 01:10:29,702 and what does that mean for us? 1270 01:10:30,202 --> 01:10:34,712 First of all, if something fails in my workflow, in my pipeline, I want 1271 01:10:34,722 --> 01:10:39,462 to be able to give as much as possible information, the right information 1272 01:10:39,482 --> 01:10:43,162 to the agent so that the agent can figure out what it is all about, 1273 01:10:43,192 --> 01:10:45,272 and hopefully fix it on its own. 1274 01:10:45,692 --> 01:10:48,012 So that I don't, as a developer, I don't have to intervene. 1275 01:10:48,502 --> 01:10:51,812 And there is like a lot of nuances like, what are, what's the format? 1276 01:10:51,942 --> 01:10:54,622 What's the amount of information that you need to deliver to the 1277 01:10:54,622 --> 01:10:56,132 agent in order to get this right? 1278 01:10:56,172 --> 01:11:00,472 So that's the number one thing, because I want to get to green state 1279 01:11:00,502 --> 01:11:02,472 as Marcus showed as soon as possible. 1280 01:11:02,972 --> 01:11:08,302 The other thing is that if everything is green and everything is okay, I want to be 1281 01:11:08,312 --> 01:11:14,152 able to monitor how is my pipeline working over the time and give enough data to my 1282 01:11:14,152 --> 01:11:17,682 agent so that it can optimize my pipeline, because that's also very important. 1283 01:11:17,832 --> 01:11:22,582 We all know that as your test suite grows, the duration of your pipeline 1284 01:11:22,582 --> 01:11:27,192 grows as well, and it's always healthy to refactor or optimize your pipeline in 1285 01:11:27,192 --> 01:11:31,372 order to keep it under 10 minutes, under 15 minutes, whatever is your target. 1286 01:11:31,782 --> 01:11:35,822 And then last but not least is like, enterprises, they need a 1287 01:11:35,822 --> 01:11:38,252 lot of governance and security. 1288 01:11:38,552 --> 01:11:41,502 We want to introduce some additional services that can complement 1289 01:11:41,542 --> 01:11:45,572 the SLSA compliance, that's the word that I'm looking for. 1290 01:11:45,692 --> 01:11:48,962 So that, that is also, these things can be done with Semaphore right now, but 1291 01:11:48,962 --> 01:11:52,612 we want to make them out of the, like working out of the box without additional 1292 01:11:52,612 --> 01:11:54,192 configuration and thinking through. 1293 01:11:54,192 --> 01:11:58,762 So it's how can we make developers more productive with the focus on CI/CD. 1294 01:11:58,862 --> 01:12:00,612 And there are like s- a lot of small things. 1295 01:12:00,652 --> 01:12:04,892 For example, like a next thing that we are going to roll out is ability to just run, 1296 01:12:04,902 --> 01:12:07,602 rerun a single job in the whole pipeline. 1297 01:12:08,102 --> 01:12:11,882 Because a lot of the times, currently you can rerun only the whole block. 1298 01:12:12,382 --> 01:12:15,472 But for a lot of the times, only one job fails. 1299 01:12:15,602 --> 01:12:19,582 And you really want to be able to really effectively just rerun that job to s- to 1300 01:12:19,582 --> 01:12:23,302 make sure that, hey, maybe it was like a little bit of flakiness or something like 1301 01:12:23,302 --> 01:12:28,292 that, but you want to be able to push it forward quickly and keep on developing. 1302 01:12:28,792 --> 01:12:29,752 That's, that's the goal. 1303 01:12:29,820 --> 01:12:32,570 Bret: Especially if that was the f- the two-minute run 1304 01:12:32,580 --> 01:12:34,560 versus the, the 20-minute run 1305 01:12:36,066 --> 01:12:36,486 Marko: Absolutely. 1306 01:12:36,546 --> 01:12:37,056 Absolutely 1307 01:12:37,556 --> 01:12:38,836 Bret: You mentioned SLSA. 1308 01:12:38,966 --> 01:12:39,996 This is what you're talking about, right? 1309 01:12:39,996 --> 01:12:40,626 S-L-S-A? 1310 01:12:41,126 --> 01:12:41,276 Marko: Mm-hmm. 1311 01:12:41,546 --> 01:12:41,826 Yes. 1312 01:12:42,170 --> 01:12:42,260 Bret: Yeah. 1313 01:12:42,610 --> 01:12:46,265 So for those of you listening that are not aware, I'm actually a big fan of SLSA. 1314 01:12:46,265 --> 01:12:47,995 we actually talked about it recently. 1315 01:12:47,995 --> 01:12:51,265 I've mentioned it more than a few times over the years because I was really 1316 01:12:51,265 --> 01:12:55,745 paying attention to it even before version one came out, and this is, this to me 1317 01:12:55,755 --> 01:12:58,855 is, the supply chain checklist bible. 1318 01:12:58,875 --> 01:13:04,825 I look at this as if I am not sure around whether my supply chain is up 1319 01:13:04,825 --> 01:13:09,435 to snuff in terms of its security and me doing all the right things as a 1320 01:13:09,875 --> 01:13:13,475 DevOps professional, it's not like we have formal education where I come out 1321 01:13:13,475 --> 01:13:17,635 of school and I know the exact minimum things that I should be doing in an 1322 01:13:17,645 --> 01:13:19,285 enterprise to keep my software safe. 1323 01:13:19,665 --> 01:13:23,885 And so SLSA to me is one of the closest things to help me with that. 1324 01:13:24,185 --> 01:13:28,955 It will give me very prescriptive step-by-step approaches to make sure 1325 01:13:28,955 --> 01:13:33,005 that I'm building securely, that I'm providing providence with my code, 1326 01:13:33,015 --> 01:13:35,785 essentially built into the artifacts, that I'm building the artifacts with 1327 01:13:35,785 --> 01:13:39,375 all the details that I need in order to understand how and where they were built, 1328 01:13:39,375 --> 01:13:42,435 and when they were built, and by who, and with all the right, all the different 1329 01:13:42,445 --> 01:13:44,105 details that I need to put in there. 1330 01:13:44,515 --> 01:13:48,435 And then making sure that I'm sort of doing the best practices in the 1331 01:13:48,435 --> 01:13:52,225 industry, like linting code, or I'm not sure if linting is actually on there. 1332 01:13:52,225 --> 01:13:56,865 But like doing some of the minimum sort of… So the, the stuff that honestly, 1333 01:13:56,865 --> 01:14:01,195 quite frankly, if we, if every open source repo in particular was doing 1334 01:14:01,195 --> 01:14:04,315 that over the last year, we probably wouldn't had near as many attacks on 1335 01:14:04,335 --> 01:14:07,485 repos that we've seen in the headlines over the last year, because almost 1336 01:14:07,495 --> 01:14:13,785 all of that is due to a lack of teams properly securing their workflows 1337 01:14:13,835 --> 01:14:17,385 and their behaviors and approaching things from a DevSecOps mindset. 1338 01:14:17,675 --> 01:14:20,555 And if they had been following the SLSA, which has levels, so, you can 1339 01:14:20,555 --> 01:14:24,115 start at a sort of beginner level, and you can sort of promote and graduate as 1340 01:14:24,115 --> 01:14:27,025 you get better and more strict, 'cause some of these things are easy and some 1341 01:14:27,025 --> 01:14:30,395 of these things, the steps by, steps that it makes you do are gonna require 1342 01:14:30,395 --> 01:14:32,575 your, more than just your own effort. 1343 01:14:32,885 --> 01:14:36,865 And so I'm always trying to s- on, especially on the re- open source 1344 01:14:37,265 --> 01:14:40,385 repos where they're public and I care more about them, I'm always trying 1345 01:14:40,385 --> 01:14:44,335 to, level up my SLSA, from w- I can't remember the levels or whatever. 1346 01:14:44,625 --> 01:14:47,505 But level one, level two, I'm not sure if they're numbered, but I'm always 1347 01:14:47,505 --> 01:14:50,465 wanting to try to level those up to get my software a little more hardened, a 1348 01:14:50,465 --> 01:14:52,445 little more, a little safer essentially. 1349 01:14:52,445 --> 01:14:53,355 And so go check that out. 1350 01:14:53,355 --> 01:14:58,655 That's S-L-S-A.dev, and they are part of the OpenSSF, which is also a great thing 1351 01:14:58,655 --> 01:15:02,815 for everyone to check out for security, and they have other stuff beside… 1352 01:15:02,945 --> 01:15:06,325 All, all the software security stuff is over at OpenSSF, so go check that out. 1353 01:15:06,825 --> 01:15:09,145 That's another part of the cloud native ecosystem, so I feel like I have to 1354 01:15:09,145 --> 01:15:12,155 plug it ' cause it's, it's cool stuff. 1355 01:15:12,655 --> 01:15:13,145 awesome. 1356 01:15:13,195 --> 01:15:14,335 Well, I'm looking forward to it. 1357 01:15:14,345 --> 01:15:15,385 How can people get started? 1358 01:15:15,415 --> 01:15:16,765 Okay, so you have the repo. 1359 01:15:17,155 --> 01:15:18,345 they can go over to, 1360 01:15:18,425 --> 01:15:20,165 Marko: Just go over to semaphore.ai. 1361 01:15:20,665 --> 01:15:20,865 Yeah. 1362 01:15:21,365 --> 01:15:22,995 And yeah, .io, exactly. 1363 01:15:24,185 --> 01:15:28,725 And, and, there is it's a simple command that, they can run and install it. 1364 01:15:28,765 --> 01:15:32,455 it gets installed and then they can say, "Hey, create my account." It will 1365 01:15:32,495 --> 01:15:34,305 prompt you to create your organization. 1366 01:15:34,305 --> 01:15:36,935 So the whole onboarding is also part of the SemAI. 1367 01:15:37,885 --> 01:15:38,295 Bret: Right. 1368 01:15:38,505 --> 01:15:41,735 yeah, 'cause on your getting started guide, it's funny, this is this is just 1369 01:15:41,735 --> 01:15:45,085 the indication of the cloud native or the, agent native world that we live in now. 1370 01:15:45,365 --> 01:15:50,465 it's not download our CLI and create an account and go do this 1371 01:15:50,485 --> 01:15:53,765 and read our repo for, or read our documentation for how to use a CLI. 1372 01:15:53,795 --> 01:15:59,335 It's pl- install this plugin into Claude Code or Codex and then ask it to get 1373 01:15:59,335 --> 01:16:02,805 started with Semaphore or whatever the com- whatever the prompt is. 1374 01:16:03,155 --> 01:16:07,615 And, I am so… I feel like this is one of my last resistances against the a- 1375 01:16:08,025 --> 01:16:11,965 the agents, is I'm so not used to that workflow of just get the tool, install 1376 01:16:11,965 --> 01:16:13,645 it, create my account, do the things. 1377 01:16:13,685 --> 01:16:15,255 I don't want it… And tell me when it's all done. 1378 01:16:15,275 --> 01:16:20,015 I'm just, I d- I s- I still am so programmed to look for the command in 1379 01:16:20,015 --> 01:16:24,165 Brew, find which Brew package I need to install, read the getting started guide, 1380 01:16:24,235 --> 01:16:26,115 create my account and all that stuff. 1381 01:16:26,115 --> 01:16:30,065 So it's cool that you're making-- You're not just making the use 1382 01:16:30,065 --> 01:16:33,035 of a CI AI native, you're making the setup and c- account stuff AI 1383 01:16:33,075 --> 01:16:34,065 native too, so that's really cool. 1384 01:16:34,565 --> 01:16:37,105 All right, Marcos, Marko, thank you so much for being here. 1385 01:16:37,605 --> 01:16:37,835 Marko: Yeah. 1386 01:16:38,025 --> 01:16:38,615 Thank you for having 1387 01:16:38,711 --> 01:16:42,141 Bret: you around the, we'll see you around the agents, around… 1388 01:16:42,451 --> 01:16:44,501 We'll be chatting with our agents are just gonna do this from now on. 1389 01:16:44,501 --> 01:16:47,001 Actually at some point this podcast is just gonna be a bunch of agents talk. 1390 01:16:47,221 --> 01:16:48,641 Your agents will join my agents. 1391 01:16:48,641 --> 01:16:51,041 We will, they will live stream and tell everybody about it, and then 1392 01:16:51,451 --> 01:16:54,101 our jobs will be to sit around the pool and drink margaritas 1393 01:16:54,601 --> 01:16:54,901 Marko: Yeah. 1394 01:16:54,911 --> 01:16:55,631 Well, okay. 1395 01:16:55,851 --> 01:16:56,271 Sounds good. 1396 01:16:56,295 --> 01:16:56,665 Bret: All right. 1397 01:16:56,825 --> 01:16:57,325 Sounds good. 1398 01:16:57,445 --> 01:16:58,545 That's the utopia future. 1399 01:16:58,555 --> 01:16:59,885 The other future I don't wanna talk about. 1400 01:17:01,535 --> 01:17:03,235 Bret (2): Thanks for watching, and I'll see you in the next episode