Silvan (00:00) Hi everyone, welcome to Long Game, a Heated Rivalry podcast. My name is Sylvan, and I'm joined, of course, with Declan, and we are still reviewing the Heated Rivalry book. So this is part eleven of our review, Declan. And Declan (00:14) Mm-hmm. Silvan (00:15) we are going to be starting off from chapter 25. Now, Declan, there's a A whole lot of sex in this chapter. Declan (00:25) Yes. Well we we've been in a bit of a drought recently. There's been way too much emotional getting together and not enough physical getting together in the previous chapters, so it's time to make up for that loss. by Silvan (00:39) And Declan (00:41) one of the most infamous scenes. Silvan (00:43) And Rachel Reid does it tenfold. She does not hold back in this chapter. So you know how sometimes I will read out some of the quotes that really sort of struck me. I'm not sure how I'm going to be able to do that in this chapter. Otherwise we're gonna have to start a Patreon. Declan (01:01) Yeah, like it'll just get blocked. Yeah, we'll we'll keep it as PG thirteen as we can, while still discussing it. Silvan (01:12) Yeah, I mean if there are kids around, please don't have your kids around listening to this episode. It gets steamy Declan (01:17) Yeah, yeah, no. I mean not not Silvan (01:21) and I'm I'm all for it. Declan (01:25) Have you been missing it? Silvan (01:27) I do know what? Like you said, there have been sort of parts where it has gotten really emotional. And you can tell the emotional intimacy increases, the the sex decreases, and so we're on this little pendulum swing and we're swinging back round to it. So at the start of the chapter, it starts off with them playing the video game. And this is such a great start to the chapter. It's light, it's reminding us of who they are. They are so competitive in nature that Declan (01:58) Yeah. Silvan (01:58) it's just it's just inherent in them and it's such a great way to start the chapter off. Declan (02:03) Yeah, it's a real fun snippet into who they actually are. I mean, the rivalry was always real and the sort of competition between the two was always real. So it's funny that you get this like little micro moment where they're playing it out, basically. And I think it's actually really, really funny too. It is such a such a nice little moment that she's put in to show what they're like whenever they're not like talking overly deep or like constantly having sex. Like What are they like just interacting with one another whenever there's no pressure to be a certain way? And it's they're goofing off, they're having fun, they're they're taking taking the hand out of each other like and I really like that. There's an authenticity to that that is really sweet and really fun. and obviously then it leads into more. Silvan (02:52) And I really like what you said when we were reviewing the T V show. You talked about especially in this scene, you talked about them just hanging out with each other, like you were hanging out with your best friend. And I think it rings so true here. Declan (03:06) Yeah, that's true. It's kinda like one of the main benefits before, it's like one of main benefits of dating a guy is like he wants to do guy things as well. Like he wants to sit and play a stupid sports game for however long. and give your like give each other shit and do the back and forth and have those like really fun moments. It's like one of the pleasures of being like a gay man is that you get to have that with your partner. not that some people don't get that as well. I just think that it's it's more it's more common amongst gay men that they share hobbies and things like that. So no, I think it's a really nice moment between the two of them. I think it adds a little bit of humanity into the situation as well. I think there's a lot of intense emotions, a lot of melodrama, a lot of like therapeutic moments and Lots of like anxiety and stuff like that that's been going on throughout the book. This is just a small moment for the two of them to have fun together and I just really like that. Silvan (04:08) And you're right, because there are so many gay male couples that I know that have been on the same sports team or, you know, been on the same book club, for example. And there is Declan (04:18) Mm-hmm. Silvan (04:19) this at first I didn't get it. At first I was like, so you're together, but you're playing on the same team. like why? You wouldn't you want that separation, that time alone? And having spoken to them, they're very dear friends of mine. I went to their wedding a couple Declan (04:32) Mm-hmm. Silvan (04:33) of months ago. I can see why there is this shared I don't know the word is, but there's something that's shared between them that feels so it's it feels really lovely to be able to do that together with your partner. Declan (04:49) Yeah, it's like it's not just your partner's like a camaraderie there. It's kinda like, you know, your best friends, essentially. And Your best friend is someone that you typically want to spend the most time around and you have fun with them whenever you're doing things together and y you feel the need to get away much less with someone that's like that. And so when you have shared hobbies and you have shared interests and you can go home and gossip about the people on the team and whatever and and do your little back and forth that you hear about so and so did this here and my god, you hear what happened with his partner. That kind of like couple banter, but it's teamed up with this like shared hobby, this shared sport or shared interest that, you know, adds a whole other level of depth to your relationship. It adds in a little great element of friendship. And yeah, I just think it's lovely. Silvan (05:40) Completely, because imagine, you know, being delivered tea and you know exactly who the people are because you've been there themselves. And I do want to preface that not every relationship is going to feel like a best friendship kind of thing. Declan (05:53) yeah, obviously every relationship though is is different. Like and it's as different as there are as many different personalities. Like some people do want to spend lots of time with their romantic partner and then other people want like less time with a romantic partner because you could drive each other mad and up the wall just because your personalities might be different, even though you might be perfect for each other. but yeah, it's a great thing if you have it, but typically it's made up w for for other People in different ways depending on how they and their partner sort of spend time or don't spend time together. So don't worry, like your relationship isn't necessarily bad if you're not complete besties with your partner, or spending every waking moment with them. So yeah. Silvan (06:37) Completely. I mean I say completely, but what do I know? I'm single, so I'm gonna default to you Declan (06:43) huh. Silvan (06:43) really here. And something you said, and you've consistently said this throughout the recordings. You keep saying Rachel Reid gets better as a writer. And you can see this not just throughout the series of the books, but you can see this within the Heated Rivalry book itself. Like Declan (07:00) What? Silvan (07:03) I think it we would be doing a disservice if we didn't talk about the sex a little bit. Like, let's be honest, people are also tuning in for that. But the sex scenes get better as the book progresses. And for me, it's not because I'm more invested in Ilya and Shane as characters, because we've always been invested in them as characters. Declan (07:26) Mm. Silvan (07:27) But the level of writing, the sex scenes particularly. Does get better. I mean I don't know if I'm going to edit this out, but I'm gonna read it anyway and let's see what happens. If you are related to me, please don't listen. Please just skip the next five minutes. Now this is the infamous blowjob scene with Hayden on the phone talking to Shane. So Rachel Reid Declan (07:51) Yeah. Silvan (07:53) writes He carefully peeled Shane's briefs softs off and slid them down to join his shorts on the floor. To be fair, Shane's dick was soft, so maybe he really didn't want Ilya to be doing this. Ilya sat back on his heels and glanced up at Shane's face, trying to gauge whether or not he was into the game. Like it's so good. Declan (08:22) Yeah, she's just getting better writing these moments in time. I think she just she's capturing something later in these chapters that she was struggling with earlier, which is sort of like the build up. It's like the the sort of little moments, little expressions, little changes in behavior and like body tension and things like that there that really add to a sort of spicy scene like this. And she's getting it a lot better now. And she's writing it with a bit more description and a bit more care. And it makes the scene hotter. Silvan (09:02) Completely. And I'm glad that you talked about the little sort of micro expressions there, because then she writes, Shane bit his bottom lip as he gazed up at him, and Ilya know knew it was game on. And so for me here, it's this you know, we are getting the spicy scenes and we are getting the sex scenes being a bit more explicit as they've always been, really. But she's tying through the consent again, and I really, really enjoy reading it. Because, you know, Ilya's not sure, do you want to, do you not? But when Shane gives him this look, it's like, Okay, game on, let's do this. Declan (09:40) Yeah. Yeah, it's confirmation. And I do like that that's something that MM romance authors I typically find are very aware of this, unless they're specifically writing like dark romance. you know, the idea of consent and partners asking for consent and giving consent is actually pretty commonplace, I find, in the books that I that I read anyway. there is an awareness of it and I don't know if because so many of these authors are women that consent is a very big element that they want included in their sort of intimate scenes. And I do understand that coming, you know, understanding like their position in sort of society and how women are viewed and how women are treated in terms of sex and in consent especially. yeah, I think it's it's not a coincidence that it's it's heavily, you know included within works that are written by women. and yeah, it's something that I think is setting a good example. I'd like to think that, you know, just small moments like this here are included for your outbooks. If that if you're gonna handle sex and you're gonna handle sex in a way that is supposed to be the positive, you know, interpretation of it, then definitely include little moments like this. I think it's it's nice for the audience and it also reinforces down the line that This is something that people do during sex and it's something you should be doing. And I I like that message. Silvan (11:12) Absolutely, and it sets up the expectation that like you said this is what we should be doing. Even if you're in a relationship, even if you've had sex a hundred times before, the consent aspect is so important. And I really like that you talk about sort of the female gaze here. So, you know, Declan (11:29) Mm. Silvan (11:29) Rachel being female, writing this book as a female, but through the eyes of these male characters and still keeping true to her as well. Declan (11:39) Mm, yeah. Yeah, I can see that. because the the reality is, I I don't know what it's like now, obviously. I've not like casually like dated in years. but I typically find that in terms of hookups between men, like there isn't a lot of checking in. In my experience, there wasn't a lot of checking in. There wasn't a lot of asking for permission or asking for consent, it was just sort of implied. And a lot of time it's just sort of get in, get it done, quick and dirty, get out again. and there wasn't a lot of time for that checking in and making sure your partner is okay and making sure that they're okay with what's going on. it's just sort of you figure it out, and hope that you're not going to like you know, upset anyone or you know, that you're going to be able to withdraw consent if you need to. So yeah, I think it's something that men could do better, if I'm being honest. But obviously that was a good few years ago now, maybe like six years ago. So for me, I don't know if that's already changed and if the attitudes around that have changed, but it's definitely something that thinking about now is not it's not something that, you know, I feel is actively done enough. Silvan (13:05) Hmm. And of course, you know, I can only speak from a gay male perspective on this. Declan (13:11) Yeah. Silvan (13:12) And I concur. And I'm thinking back to conversations I've had with friends, for example, and drawing from some of their experiences. And I think a lot of the talk of quote unquote consent in that context is done almost pre hookup. So it's it's almost a conversation about what are you into. you know, top or bottom. And it's very reduced to labels, but also very specific kinks as well, for example. And then Declan (13:45) Mm. Yeah. Silvan (13:47) within those labels or kinks, it's just implied. Like because you are into this, this is what we're going to do. And it feels It's worrying, if I'm honest, because you're right, consent isn't actively sought in the moment for a lot of people, Declan (14:09) Yeah. Silvan (14:10) and nor is the ability to withdraw consent when you're in the act itself. Declan (14:16) Mm-hmm. Silvan (14:18) And it is something that isn't talked about a lot. At least not in the circles that I've been running in or the online discourses I've been looking at. Declan (14:28) Mm-hmm. Silvan (14:29) And it's dangerous because it sets the expectation that once you start an act, whatever that might be, you have to complete it. And actually, no, you don't. And it's so important that you are able to stop at any point and just not have to apologize or overly Declan (14:50) No. Silvan (14:51) explain why. Declan (14:53) Yeah. Silvan (14:53) And I'm not sure. Again, if there are any other listeners who have more of an insight into into this culture and this subculture, tell us, educate us. But from what I know and what I've heard, I'm not sure that it has changed all that much, I'm I'm afraid. Declan (15:11) Yeah. And to be honest, it doesn't surprise me because of the way that gay dating is basically not even talking about dating, just hooking up, is like translated through this online way. especially free apps like Grindr, where it's very like it's almost clinical in how like emotionally removed it is. It's purely like what can I get out of you? What are you wanting to give me? I want these things, are you on and up for it? And you know, this is where I can really empathize with women. The idea of inviting a man you do not know into your home, having sex with them in the middle of that, maybe not wanting to, and maybe wanting them to leave. But if they were like bigger than you, if they were stronger than you, if they were, you know, if they had any sort of ill will or had a kind of like stubborn streak where they kind of don't want to be told what to do or something like that. You may be put in a position where you cannot really reasonably say no without it maybe turning into a big issue. And like in like you know, real life, like I'm like 5'7 and I don't weigh much. and so in a situation like that, that could be very concerning for someone like me. But looking from the perspective of like a woman, like, my god, like that's kind of frightening, and I think. It would explain a lot about why women maybe don't hook up as casually as men do. obviously there's exceptions to every rule and that there are women that do go out and they have their one night stands and whatever and and that's fine, you know, they're allowed to do that, but I'm just really thinking now about the inherent risk for them in that. Whenever I'm thinking about the inherent risk in that for me, if I was to be doing that. And so, yeah, it is it is a risky thing. You're you're relying very heavily on the assumption that this person that you're talking to has good intentions and will respect your boundaries. And thankfully, most people are not the psychotics that you see plastered on the news. Most people are relatively normal and they're just there to have a good time, and so are you. But there's no doubt that there is an element of men out there that do not understand consent correctly, assume that they have it all the time and free out. And really do require those reminders to be like, No, like you need to take a step back here. I'm not comfortable with this. and have that common for them and have them ready to receive that information and better yet to be asking for it free out. So yeah, it's an interesting interesting discussion. Silvan (18:00) Yeah, and speaking to that, you know, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of articles online that have been written about, you know, somebody being robbed or beaten up from arranging a grinder type hookup. And Declan (18:14) Murdered? Silvan (18:15) that yeah, yeah. And and so there is this inherent risk that a lot of people, mm you know, whatever their sexuality or whatever their pronouns sometimes don't always take into account because we don't. And that can still what you described can still happen even if you're in a relationship, right? You know, they doesn't doesn't Declan (18:36) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Silvan (18:38) have to necessarily be a casual hookup, a one night stand, for example. So where I've seen this shift is where a pair might become fuck buddies, for example. Because Declan (18:50) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Silvan (18:50) there is a little bit more familiarity there. There is a bit more give and take. I know what you like, you know what I like, and there's no ill intent there. There's no, I just want to get my needs taken care of. And so that's where I can see a little bit of a shift. I'm curious to hear what other people's experiences have have been like. Declan (19:12) Yeah, yeah. Especially because like obviously it's been a very long time since I've ever been a part of anything like it. I'm curious to see if it has changed in any way or if the elements of it have gotten even worse. I don't know. I I don't I don't know. So yeah, I would I'd be interested to hear from people. Silvan (19:30) And coming back to the chapter in terms of consent, Declan (19:33) Mm-hmm. Silvan (19:34) says here, I won't touch you. If you don't get hard, I won't do anything, deal. And Shane's mouth fells open and says, I won't get hard. And Ilya says, Okay, then, no problem. And so here we see Rachel, you know, using consent but using it also with a playful tone. It's like right, if you don't get hard, then I won't touch you, fully knowing Shane will get hard. This is Declan (19:59) Yeah. Silvan (20:00) what Shane gets excited by. He loves being the bad boy. Declan (20:04) Yeah, he loves to misbehave in a way because he spends so much of his life trying to be the perfect image, the perfect son, the perfect player, the perfect sort of representative of everything. And so these moments with Ilya are like little guilty pleasures for him. He is able to let loose and sort of, I don't know, try something a little different or maybe do something a bit more risky. And he loves it. Like he has a good time every single time. Silvan (20:30) and we see this sort of, bad boy wanting to be that bad boy sort of coming in. Rachel writes, Shane says, God, fuck you, why was that so hot? And Ilya says, Because you like to be bad, Shane Hollander. And Declan (20:44) No. Silvan (20:45) there is this element of you're talking about Shane wanting to sort of be naughty, he wants to get out of his head. But what's really interesting in this paragraph is Rachel writes, he was just teasing Shane, but he wondered how true those words were. Was that perhaps all this was to Shane? Rebellion. Was that all he was to Shane? So despite Declan (21:10) Mm. Silvan (21:11) us getting this sort of they're getting closer, there's still this doubt. Declan (21:17) Yeah, and they promised they were gonna communicate, they were gonna be honest, and Ilya should've asked the question then. This is a big issue with Ilya where he will devise little schemes to try to prove things to himself and he'll typically not involve Shane, his idea of what he's doing. He'll just carry it out. And this is followed up obviously by a scene there where he's talking about Marian Spitlana, which is not accidental. That is definitely part of a scheme. For Ilya to prove whether or not this is what Shane wants. So I also find Duke, you know, quite curious that this must be how Ilya views himself as a bad person, a bad influence, someone who is not necessarily good or good for Shane, which is really curious because obviously I'm imagining this is coming from his father, this is coming from his upbringing, how he was perceived and The mask that he does wear, obviously, he's a womanizer or supposedly and he gives a bad attitude to people, but he's also incredibly considerate, emotionally intelligent, and will reach out a hand to people in need. and is actually quite sweet with Shane in a lot of ways and very patient with him. And like that's not a reflection of a bad person to me. So Ilya clearly views himself differently from how others view him. And he's making an assumption about how Shane views him too. And that assumption is not correct. Shane does not view Ilya that way. Silvan (22:55) He's projecting onto Shane. And in a way, he's you know, he's testing Shane without Shane even knowing or realizing or being honest about it with Shane. And this is what's missing from the TV show. We don't see the side of Ilya. The the self Declan (23:15) Mm. Silvan (23:15) doubting Ilya, the questioning Ilya. And I think it adds depth to his character. Because Declan (23:23) Yeah. Yeah. Silvan (23:25) it's human. Declan (23:26) Hmm. And it's realistic. I mean, consider what Ilya's coming from. Like he has basically been mentally abused, emotionally abused by his father for years. He has been degrading him, demeaning him, and shattering his confidence in himself. Ilya Through sheer force of personality, he manages to carry himself with an air of confidence and a bit of cheekiness. And he has created an image of himself that protects him and protects him from his father. Well, he has a different mass for his father. He has the obedient son for his father, but he's internalized a lot of that idea that Ilya is wrong and that he's never doing things right, and that he's a bad guy, and he's this and he's that. Not to mention the fact that. The hockey media is telling him how how bad he is and how he's this and how he's that and how he's all these things. And you can even tell by the way that people meet him for the first time, they just like make this assumption that he's gonna be an absolute dick to them. Which is also partly Ilya's fault because he is he is projecting that image out to people deliberately. And so his true self is getting a little lost. I think he's kinda convinced himself that the mask is real when it's not. It's it's his defense mechanism and he needs to realise that he's already shown sh like shown Shane, the the person under the mask, but he's so used to wearing it he that he's beginning to believe it himself. Whereas Shane sees through. And I really like that aspect of the relationship. Silvan (25:02) Yeah. And this is why the next paragraph makes sense, which is in the T V show. Shane says, That's not why I do this with you. Maybe it was when we started, I don't know, but it isn't now and it hasn't been for a long time. So in the TV show you go from the paragraph where he's like, you like to be bad, Shane Hollander, to Shane says, That's not why I do this. The paragraph where we get the self-doubt familiar, that Declan (25:29) Mm. Silvan (25:30) puts the whole the whole thing into context. In the T V show I remember watching it thinking, how do they jump from that to that? Like, yeah, okay, whatever, it was really hot. Declan (25:39) Yeah. Silvan (25:40) but there's a leap that they make in the T V show in that scene. That one paragraph in this chapter makes sense now. Declan (25:48) Yeah. Because this is his inner monologue and Judah not getting his inner monologue in the show. So Jacob Trian would have had to very creatively like show that this is how Ilyah views himself, and I don't think it was entirely done, to be honest. I I don't think it's like a thread that he followed. which you might end up regretting because this becomes quite important and so yeah. He just had to sort of jump and it does seem a little out there. Now if I if I think back to the show, it's like he only said he only made an offhand comment, like you don't need to finally. But also it's still incredibly sweet that Shane made him aware, like you know why that I actually finally like it's it's a very sweet moment to remind him and assure him that, you know, that's not what this is. and in that moment he was fully aware that Ilya needed to hear it. Which is curious because is she getting better at sort of reading Ilya? Hopefully. Silvan (26:52) Yeah, yeah. And you can see this barrier for Ilya starts to come down a little bit. Shane, like you said, he's three he sees through it. And Rachel writes like Ilya says okay, and then she writes, Why do you do it now? he wanted to ask, but he was scared of the answer. So instead he pulled Shane down for a kiss. And then we get this typical Ilya, let's detract from the situation. so. Ilya said casually, when they broke apart. How's Hayden? Declan (27:26) Distractor, distractor. Stop distracting. Be such an avoidance. Silvan (27:31) Right? Because that's all right. That's all Shane needs is he's he's like he's like a little puppy. Like you show him something shiny and he's going to go towards that as well. Declan (27:41) Yeah, yeah. He's it's just become so typical of him now to try and deflect so he doesn't need to talk about his feelings. and so he'll think of like some complicated scheme to like get them across instead or to find out information. rather than doing what they both agreed they would do, which is be honest and communicate. that's obviously a deep instinct in Ilya to assess someone's reaction before he commits to a response. which is a curious thing. It's like a and something very common actually in people that come from really disruptive family households. you'll find people like the watcher, like the the the people pleaser, the manager of emotions within families who try to stop conflict from arising because they don't enjoy when the conflict happens. And so they micromanage emotions or they come up with those strategies to figure out how people feel. And it means that they become very observant and very emotionally intelligent at a young age, but it also has detriments as well, where they are constantly terrified of just speaking their thoughts and speaking truth and risking immediate conflict or an immediate no. And so they will like test the waters, they'll dip it to win in whatever way or whatever method they fought up of. And Ilya coming from the home that he does come from. fully makes sense that he would be this way. It makes sense that he would be someone who, whenever it's something that he genuinely cares about, he will not address it directly. He'll find a way of like fishing the information out some other way. So he doesn't need to deal with rejection or doesn't have to deal with the idea of someone like exploding on him or having a go at him for asking the question or or you know, risking the pain or the hurt that might come from no. Silvan (29:41) Because that's what he's used to. And I feel like what you were describing there was a parentified child, for example, or Declan (29:47) Mm. Silvan (29:48) a child that becomes the peacekeeper in that family. And Declan (29:51) Yeah. And Silvan (29:54) whilst you were going really deep and I was listening, all I could think about was Taylor Swift's lyric, where she talks about someone being digmatized, and I thought, Shane's being digmatized. Declan (30:07) Stigmatized his his brain has been melded, has been mushed. Silvan (30:12) by nine inches. allegedly. Declan (30:17) Allegedly, yeah. Silvan (30:20) So I wanted to talk about the section in the chapter where Ilya talks about, you know, wanting to be drafted by a Canadian team, for example. Or Declan (30:28) Mm-hmm. Silvan (30:29) moving to a Canadian team. And I had a I don't know if you've ever watched Sliding Doors with Gwyneth Paltrow. Again, it was really like a 90s movie. I'm hoping some of the listeners will be familiar. But basically the premise is what if you got on a different train that day or the train was delayed? How different would your life be? And so I was Declan (30:50) Mm-hmm. So like the butterfly effect. Silvan (30:54) yeah, kind of. and I was thinking, what if when Ilya and Shane were drafted, they went to different teams. So they went to the opposite team. So Ilia goes to Canada, Shane goes down to the States. How different do you think things would have been for them personally, but also through the story had they been drafted into the opposite team? Declan (31:26) Hmm, that's an interesting thought. it's first important to acknowledge though that both teams are apparently really successful. They both get Stanley Cup wins, and a lot of it is attributed to both of them being excellent players, put on decent teams, and they're able to then take those teams all the way to the win. But in terms of like geographically, yeah, maybe the fact that Shane would what, have to move to a Montreal team. I think this would be easier, to be honest. I think this would suit better. Because Ilya would not have to make the sacrifice of leaving New York and leaving his winning team to go join another one. he would already be in Canada, he would already be close to Shane. It would be Shane then that would have to make the decision of leaving his successful team to go and join another. And Would he go to the bad Canadian team to make it work? Mm. Silvan (32:31) I don't think he would because later on in the book, and it's not a spoiler, 'cause we're talking about the book, but Yuna talks about him well, sorry, when they're having the conversation with Yuna and David, you know, Yuna's looking at Elia like, you would move up to Canada for Shane? I don't think Shane would have moved from a winning team. It's just my gut that's sort of like, I think Shane would have stayed put. Because he doesn't like change. And there is familiarity. I'm also not convinced Shane would have moved away from his parents. So I'm not sure that he would have moved away from Canada, but if he did, his parents would have moved down with him. Declan (33:14) Mm, that's interesting. Yeah. It's it's funny, Silvan (33:18) Especially Una. Declan (33:19) yeah. I think so much of things surrounding the families is so different from the show compared to the book. In the book, I don't I don't know if his parents would have joined. I think maybe he would have taken the risk himself, maybe he would've done that. at the start of his career. But definitely not in a TV show, no. Like His parents are a massive part of his life and they are constantly in it. and so the idea of moving far away from them, inaccessible to them, and them inaccessible to him. Yeah, I just don't see that being a thing. and it's curious as well, like f Ilya's family is very different as well from the book to the the TV show. And the TV show, like his father is like some sort of Russian oligarch, like he is part of the state, he is influenced, he goes to very expensive and wealthy parties. And Ilya is like, you know, a famous star for Russia and is well thought of in very high circles in the book. Like his father's career is not even mentioned. His brother's a policeman. Like that's it. I get the idea they don't come from money. And Ilya is in America as the breadwinner. Not because he's chasing prestige. In the show, he's chasing prestige. He's chasing a proof of his talent and his ability to his father, who seems to have pushed him to do this. whereas in the book it seems a lot more like they're kind of annoyed that Ilya is gone and that he's pursued this thing and that he's not in Russia and that he is not, you know, he's making money, but like why aren't you here making the money instead? Like completely different family dynamics, so you do. And so In the book, like yeah, I just feel like decisions will be made differently and that some like things that happen in the book make more sense than they do in the show. and so yeah, just a general thought around that, but I do get your point about Shane not not willing to move if it had been the other way around, I've mentioned before that I think Ilea just likes to win. I think he just happens to be good at hockey. and so it's less of a like passion for hockey that he has and more of like a passion for winning at hockey. whereas Shane is just hockey crazy. So he is absolutely Silvan (35:51) Mm. Declan (35:52) hockey crazy. And so would he leave a winning team to go move to one of the worst teams in Canada? Probably not, no. Silvan (36:02) No. And I like that you make that separation from the book characters to the TV characters because sometimes I interchange between them without expressing which ones I'm talking about. So I was definitely talking about like T V show Shane, Declan (36:16) Yeah. Silvan (36:16) more so than books. So thank you for that. And speaking of that differentiation between the characters, when we get this part in the book where Ilya says, I could marry Svetlana. For me there is this separation in a way that there's an emotional heaviness when he says this in the TV show because we know who Svetlana is, we know how important Svetlana is in Ilya's life. Declan (36:44) It's very likely. Silvan (36:46) It is, right? Whereas in the book, Svetlana's somebody who just sold him a car like half a book ago. Declan (36:53) Yeah. But Lana is not a major character or major not even a major side character in the the book. Like she is she's basically she's nobody. Really. She has nobody. She's just a a girl that happens to speak Russian that Ilya sometimes slept with. Like there is none of the the family background, there's none of the emotional attachment, there is none of the like depiction of how well they actually get along together. and so When he says it in the show, it's a genuine like it's a genuine possibility that he could do that if needed if needs be. If he needed to. I am convinced that in the show Svetlana would go along with it too. And do it knowing that it would be a way for Ilya to stay and to still love Shane. I think she would do that for him. In the book No. They don't know each other like that. And Like she is such a minor it's like she's a minor part of his life, really. And so the idea that she would do it anyway is ridiculous. But also you're getting Ilya's inner monologue and you know that he thinks it's ridiculous that he would do that. He's doing it to taunt. He's not doing it to genuinely put that conversation out there. So no, it's completely different. Silvan (38:16) So add a couple of thoughts to that. The first one was well maybe because there is less emotional entanglement with books Fetlana, would it be easier to go along with that knowing that it probably wouldn't mean much it would be a green card sort of kind of marriage? Declan (38:33) Mm-hmm. Silvan (38:34) But also as you were talking about taunting shame, I wrote down in my in my book in my notes, is he testing shame? Is Ilya Declan (38:43) Yeah. Silvan (38:44) testing shame? Because Shane's reaction in the book is probably just as heavy as the TV show. So Rachel writes, Shane frowned at the three ball. So they're playing pool at this point, which my god, can we talk about that in a moment? But anyway, Shane frowned at the three ball that just missed the side pocket. He would have made that shot if Ilya hadn't just casually dropped his worst nightmare on him. Declan (39:11) Mm. Silvan (39:12) Is it his worst nightmare in the book? Declan (39:16) I don't think Shane knows what he wants. Shane's very mixed up. He his heart is telling him one thing and his mind is telling him another. He's he's torn between his two loves, Hockey and Ilya. And so I don't I'm I'm not convinced Shane really knows what he wants. I think that that is probably a nightmare for Shane. I think that would be a nightmare for Shane. I think the idea of it would force him to make certain decisions that he doesn't want to have to make. and that scares the living shit out of him. Like he knows he's in love with Ilya at this point and he knows that things might be asked of him that he doesn't want to have to do. and so this idea of Spetlana marrying Ilya is like unthinkable to him, especially because it would prompt him to have to do something. Something that he views as very extreme, like maybe having to come out, maybe having to make the whole thing public just to ensure that He gets to keep this. Gets to keep this thing with this guy. And whether or not at this point in their relationship, he would be willing to do that for something that he's not sure about yet. Silvan (40:29) Yeah. And in a way, as you were talking, I was thinking, Is Shane jealous that Ilya might go off and do this? He might go off and marry a woman, he might have this whole other life that doesn't include Shane. Because at this point They've been at this for what seven, eight years now? Nothing's really progressed in terms of a typical relationship, for example, granted Declan (40:55) Yeah. Silvan (40:55) they're not in one, of course. But is he jealous of Ilya that Ilya gets to have this other kind of life that maybe he can't have with Shane at this point? Declan (41:09) I would say so, yeah. I mean, there's no getting around the fact that there is an advantage that Ilya has that Shane doesn't, which is that Ilya likes men and women. If if Ilya wants the traditional sort of cis straight relationship, nuclear family thing, he could have it if he wanted to. Shane does not have that option. The idea of Shane trying to get into a relationship with a woman and making it a continue on He already proved to himself he can't do it. Like Rose was literally a movie star, gorgeous, amazing personality, becomes like a very close friend even after breaking up. If you cannot make it work with a person like that, with a woman like that, you're never making it work. It's never gonna happen. Whereas Ilya could potentially find someone that he could make it work with that's a woman. And so There are certain advantages and disadvantages between the two of them that allows you know allows a bit of compromise being needed here for you know what they're gonna do going forward and how also a bit of doubt as well on Shane of what Ilyag could possibly want. Silvan (42:29) Yeah. Yeah. And I want to talk about the body language as well. So Declan (42:35) Mm. Silvan (42:35) in the book, they're playing pool. So when I imagine this in my head, you know, they might be on different sides of the table. There's a focus point that isn't each other. So, you know, you're focusing on the pool table, on what you're doing. You're sort Declan (42:49) Mm-hmm. Silvan (42:50) of having this conversation but moving. You're having this conversation, not maintaining eye contact. Whereas in the TV show, they're on the couch. And they're playing FTSE and they're having this conversation. So not only are they locked in physically, but Declan (43:06) Mm-hmm. Silvan (43:06) also through their expression with their eyes. And you can see this in the way Hudson plays Shane, you know, the tears well up. Like and you could see the the the tears well in his eyes and Declan (43:19) Yeah. Silvan (43:19) they're just ready to drop. And I appreciate I appreciate why the choices were made for each of those for for the book versus the TV show. I think because visually the TV show is just so strong in my mind, I I sort of veer to that. But I could see why Rachel might have picked them to have an activity whilst having a really difficult conversation. Because typically, and not all men, but for some men. They don't have difficult conversations face to face. You know, they Declan (43:54) Yeah. Silvan (43:55) have those conversations when driving in the car, going for a walk, playing sports, playing pool. That is quite realistic actually. Declan (44:04) Mm. Yeah, that they need the the distraction, the excuse of you know, having something to draw away from the intensity of the discussion. and this is I think this is a difference of the genders, to be honest. Like it really is. men are very they find it very difficult to be vulnerable with people and to show themselves in a very sincere light. And Vulnerability and sincerity are things that for a very long time they have taught like make you assessing, make you gay, they that that they're for women, they're not what men do. And so the distraction of having like a moment and activity to draw away from the intensity of that, I think yeah, is actually pretty accurate. Silvan (45:01) Yeah, And ultimately at the end of this dialogue, which is pretty much word for word from the book to the TV show, you Declan (45:10) Mm. Silvan (45:10) know, Shane says, Don't marry Svetlana. And so we get this realization. Even though he's sort of still figuring it out and how is this gonna happen, he knows what he wants, but he also knows what he doesn't want. And he knows he doesn't want Ilya to marry. Svetlana Declan (45:31) Yeah. Yeah. very tough for Shane. Very tough realization. Ilya really does back him into a corner here, but I also think he needs to be backed into a corner. Ilya needs to know if this guy's fucking as serious about this as he is. And personally I think you should just ask of the fucking question rather than creating this scenario for Shane to have to to have to deal with in this way. but that's the only tools that Ilya really knows how to use at this point in time. And so he does get the answer he's looking for, and I think this is a confirmation for Ilya that Shane wants this as badly as he does, and that he's willing to to take risks to make it happen. which is exactly all they need to to come to agreement with in this this part of the book is They both need to come to the realization that they want one another and that they are willing to take risks to try to make it happen. Silvan (46:38) Yeah, Ilya's test kinda works out in a way. If he is testing him. Declan (46:42) He gets results. Silvan (46:45) Well, it pushes Shane, it pushes them both, you know, 'cause Declan (46:49) Mm. Silvan (46:49) they can't keep doing what they're doing. They need to move. Whether it's forwards or backwards, something needs to change and Somebody needs to instigate it. Now there's lots more that happens in the chapter, and I've only earmarked a few more things, but Rachel and I've said this before, Rachel writes really good comedy. There's a part in the book where Shane wakes Ilya up and she writes, Ilya's brow furrowed. It's very late, Hollander. This is a lot of English. What is your idea? And this is when Shane starts yapping about the charity and all that stuff. But Declan (47:27) Yeah, mm-hmm. Silvan (47:28) we forget sometimes or I forget sometimes English is not Ilya's first language and when Shane's excited he's probably talking really fast. He's probably maybe using words that are maybe lengthier or more complicated. And I couldn't just help but smile and think, if someone woke me up in the middle of the fucking night, started yapping Declan (47:49) Okay. Silvan (47:49) about a charity, be like, what the fuck are you talking about? Declan (47:53) Yeah, in a language you like are are struggling to understand. No. I yeah. No. I think it's unhinged Silvan (48:01) I thought that was a cute moment. Declan (48:03) and it's fine. Because it's very good. Silvan (48:05) Only because I would be the grumpy person that'd be like, Why did you just wake me up? Declan (48:09) Yeah, and why are you speaking to me in this language that I can barely string together at this point? Like I can't even I can barely talk English when I wake up. Like you know, that's my native language, so I can't imagine what it's like for Ilya. Silvan (48:26) I mean, it must take such a cognitive load to be able to speak in a different language. And I know when we had Alicia on the podcast, we definitely spoke about that, and that was such a fun Declan (48:35) Mm. Silvan (48:36) conversation to have with her as she's reading the books in English, but she's a native Spanish speaker. But coming back to the book, we finally get the I love you. Weather Declan (48:54) It only took Silvan (48:54) What were your thoughts? Declan (48:56) it took eight years. for something that was fairly obvious after like a year. yeah, finally, finally admitting to each other I love you. Wow. Well done guys, thanks for finally figuring it out. Great job. At this point it's like thank god. It's like relief, it's like, finally. Silvan (49:21) Yeah. Yeah. And can I ask you, I want to break down the the line that they say. So Rachel writes I love you, Shane froze, and then Ilya froze. Holy shit, Shane whispered. It wasn't how much he had meant to respond. Ilya's eyes were so wide and so scared. I love you too, Shane said. Ilya gave a shaky smile and exhaled, thank Christ. And then Shane says, Does it does it feel like agony for you too? And Ilya says, Not anymore. Can we break that down a little? What were your thoughts on that? Declan (49:59) Yeah, let's break that down. So for me, what Shane is saying is does loving each other and wanting this relationship does it tear you up that we can't have it and that we've not been able to have it? Like does it kill you that like our love is causing so much pain and panic and and all these things? and then for Ilia it's like now that I know that you love me, none of the other stuff matters to me. That's what I think. Silvan (50:45) Yeah, that's that's so poetic, Declan. I don't know how I'm gonna respond to that. I think my take on it was does being in this pseudo relationship cause you agony? Declan (51:03) Yeah. Silvan (51:04) And that's sort of what I took from it. And it's this will they, won't they, will they, won't they? And for me, it's like when Shane says, Does it feel like agony for you too? In a similar way to you said what you said actually, when Declan (51:18) Yeah. Silvan (51:18) Ilya's like, not anymore, it almost like, no, because I know now we're we're in it. Well it's real. We're both on the same page. Declan (51:24) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Silvan (51:28) But to me it's more a directed towards the actual agony of the relationship in a way. Declan (51:34) Yeah. Silvan (51:34) That's really interesting. I like your take on it though. I'm never gonna sound as smart as you when it comes to this book, but that's okay. Declan (51:40) But Silvan (51:42) But there was a point, and again Rachel does the really heavy moments and then the lighter moments and then the sexy moments, and we Declan (51:50) Mm-hmm. Silvan (51:51) get one of those here, you know, where Shane says, I want to be as close as possible to you. He said breathlessly. And then there's a bit more, but he says, I want to be in your lap when you Fuck me, facing you, holding you. And we when we see these sort of spicier moments, she writes, Ilya shook his head, grinning. You love me. Show me how much. Declan (52:14) Yeah. Silvan (52:14) And then you're thinking, that's cute, like this much, this much, this much, like moving hands away from each other. But Ilya says stroke yourself and maybe I will fuck you. Declan (52:25) Yeah, I mean let's see still illiot I think. Is it still he's rivalry, Sylvan? Like we haven't switched books all of a sudden. Silvan (52:33) I it's not Bridgetton. Declan (52:36) Yeah, exactly. Just him. It's just so him. And it breaks the tension as well, I think. and then builds up a different tension instead. But yeah, it's just so it's just so in character, so yeah, doesn't surprise me that that's the first thing he decides to say after getting his confession that he's been seeking for eight years. Silvan (52:56) Totally, but then again in true Rachel Reid style, towards the end of this chapter now, we get this conversation about Ilya's mother, where Shane Declan (53:06) Mm-hmm. Silvan (53:06) asks, What was your mother's name? and Ilya proceeds to tell him. And then this is Shane sort of coming up with the idea of having the mental health sort of charity or organization. And this is such a very sweet moment in the book. Declan (53:22) Yeah. Silvan (53:22) And I thought, what's the purpose of ending on this note? Because in the previous chapter, we end, we have a very heavy moment where Iliad tells Shane about his mum, and you know, it was an accident. She's not weak, though, she was strong. My father was really hard on her. And then we end on this really light fluffy moment. Whereas in this chapter, she allows us to stay in it. She allows us to stay, you know, let's create a charity, let's do it in suicide prevention, you know, and Ilya says that she would have loved you. Why the shift, I'm thinking. Why the shift in her writing to end the chapter like this now? Declan (54:05) It is curious curious change of structure that she's gone with, I think. It could just be that She needs a moment of you know pure expression of love from Shane to close out their chapter of love confession to end it in this really meaningful gesture that shows how deeply he cares and how tuned in he is with his loves and his wants and his needs and and his past and his complexities and his family. And there's so much in that gesture that Shane's making that expresses his love entirely. And I think For a chapter that's centered around a confession of love, I think it's a very nice way to end it. Silvan (55:01) And this is how I know you are the MM romance reader because you find these moments. It's so beautiful. Declan (55:05) Because I'm like sap. Yeah, well, I'll I'll take the win. but I think that's all we have time for as well. We did get through a decent bit this time. Everyone? Silvan (55:22) One chapter. Declan (55:23) One chapter. Exactly, one chapter is excellent. It's not half a chapter anymore, which is really good. anyway, thank you all so much for joining us. Honestly, it's such a pleasure. We love doing these book breakdowns and this one in particular has been really, really fun. make sure you like and subscribe, share this video around. or if you're listening, you know, share that as well. You know, listen to it when you're doing the stitches, maybe when you're in the car. You know, be nice to have us in your ears whenever you're off doing your day-to-day life. But Yeah, just no Silvan (55:53) Just no kids. No kids, please. Declan (55:55) just no kids. Yeah, be careful of of playing it with the kids in the car, please. I don't want to be you know, yeah, getting anyone in trouble. Thank you very much. But Yeah, we'll wrap up there. Make sure also to check out our book club on Fable. It's the Long Game Pod Book Club. We're going through different MN Romance books. We've actually finished the Game Changer series. and so we're moving on to some different reads now. But definitely check that out. Some of those books will be appearing on the podcast at one point. So be excited for that too. anyway, thanks very much guys. we'll see you next time for whichever part we manage to get onto next.