Howard Bentham: Hello there and good to have you along once again.
I'm Howard Bentham and this is OxTalks, the podcast powered by OxLEP, the local
enterprise partnership for Oxfordshire.
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In this edition, we'll be exploring flexible working, and asking, are the days
of working nine to five coming to an end?
Flexible working covers a whole range of working scenarios, including job
share to part time, remote or hybrid working, compressed hours, staggered
hours, annualised hours, and flexi time.
Employees who may benefit from this kind of approach might have
caring responsibilities, issues around disability, or perhaps
their physical and mental health.
Its aim is to strike a better work life balance.
Finding a balance, though, that works for both employer and
employee clearly isn't easy.
CIPD research shows that 6 percent of employees changed jobs in 2022,
specifically due to a lack of flexible options and 12 percent left their
profession altogether due to a lack of flexibility within the sector.
This represents almost 2 and 4 million workers respectively.
When you consider statistics like that, somehow you can't help hearing the voice
of Dolly Parton singing about working 9 to 5, what a way to make a living,
barely getting by, it's all taking and no giving, perhaps Dolly had a point.
Critics of flexible working, not necessarily of Dolly Parton, however,
point out that flexible working can create a fragmented and divided
workforce, where some people feel they're not being treated fairly, which
can lead to conflict and resentment.
Questions also remain around the effectiveness of remote or hybrid
working in terms of productivity.
In April this year, the law changed in this country, meaning that
employees now have the right to request flexible working practices
from day one of their employment.
It'll be fascinating to see in the coming months and years the difference this will
make to the country's productivity as well as to workers health and wellbeing.
Let's explore this further with our guest who has seen the impact
of workplace flexibility, or the lack of it, from both sides.
Made redundant whilst pregnant, she now heads up an award winning
recruitment agency specialising in placing those specifically looking
for work that fits around their lives.
I'm delighted to welcome to OxTalks, the founder of 923 Jobs, Helen Wright.
Helen, great to speak with you, thanks for coming to talk to us.
I'm really fascinated about your light bulb moments in an Oxfordshire children's
playground, when you realised that all the mums there, with their kids were
talented lawyers, accountants, architects and the like, who were effectively
being kept out of work by the fact that there was a lack of flexibility
in work, that really resonated with me.
Tell us the story.
Helen Wright: Well, Howard, I mean, I have to say, first of all, I do know all
the words to Dolly Parton's Ninety Five.
I won't try them out with you now, but I was going through quite a
frustrating period in my life, I suppose.
I had been a broadcast journalist, spent about 10 years working for BBC
and ITV and then I was pregnant with our first child and I was made redundant.
So it's very difficult to get work when you're pregnant and so I
was forced into a little bit of a career break, but do you know what?
I'm a positive person and I see that.
That was a good thing, and it worked out in the end.
But sadly you know, 55, 000 women in the UK are made redundant
while pregnant still in 2024.
But let me take you back to the playground moment.
So, I had been a stay at home mum, we had three children, and I thought, I
really want to get back to the workplace.
But I was really struggling to find any kind of part time or flexible work
that fitted in around the children.
I'd registered with a couple of agencies.
I thought, you know what, I don't mind working full time, living in Oxfordshire,
I thought I could get into London, but nothing really was coming back to me.
Maybe a couple of full time opportunities that were paying less than the cost of
childcare and it was very demoralising because, you know, I'd had a career and
I backed myself to actually add value to business and I stood in my local
village playground pushing children on swings and I just looked around and I
just thought, wow, I'm not alone, she's an accountant, she did PR for banks in
the city, she was director of HR, she worked for a big corporate whatever doing
something high and important or whatever and none of us were working and I just
thought, wow, we're in the booming Thames Valley, surely there are businesses out
there who are looking to try and find talent to help them grow and thrive and
I thought, I'm going to try and unite and link these two groups together.
So I trotted home, children hanging off my arms, got home and set up
nine to three jobs and there we go.
Howard Bentham: So tell us how that works then as a job agency if you will.
Helen Wright: Yeah.
So low barrier to entry, Howard, when it comes to recruitment, it's not like being
a lawyer and accountant, no exams to pass.
Just bought myself a laptop, had a phone, got a notebook.
Being a former journalist, it's okay phoning up people and asking things,
because I've had to make quite a lot of difficult calls and door knocks, as
other journalists will know, knocking, calling someone up and asking them about
their murdered relative or whatever.
This was easy, phoning up businesses and just saying, do you want to try and
tap into this amazing pool of talent?
And so that's what I started doing and slowly grew the business from there
as more and more local businesses realised that actually you can find
brilliant and experienced candidates in this way and I'm always struck by the
number of people who don't realise that there are lawyers and accountants and
whatever who want to work part time.
I've spoken to clients and they say, but we're looking for a lawyer
for three days a week, but we probably won't find one, will we?
And we're like, Yeah, heck yeah, we've got loads!
And it's just about opening people's eyes.
Howard Bentham: And you say opening people's eyes, I guess that's opening
the employer's eyes as much as it's opening the potential employee's eyes
as well and bringing them together.
Helen Wright: Yes, I suppose with the employees, with the candidates,
we have grown organically.
It's been a massive word of mouth experience, I suppose.
Howard Bentham: That's unbelievably powerful word of mouth!
Helen Wright: Really powerful and talking, going back to the school gates and the
playground and that's where word spreads and someone will tell their sister who
tells their friends and we say, how did you hear about us when we speak to
candidates and a lot of the time it is through that power of toddler groups and
coffee mornings and a lot of the time it's women who are, I suppose, it doesn't sound
right, but maybe they're just desperate.
They're banging their heads against a brick wall and I don't know, I feel
that we're in a generation where for the first time we as, okay, I'm going to
get a bit philosophical here, maybe not everyone will agree with me, but I kind
of feel that we've been enabled to go to university, our generation, my generation,
you know, we're in our forties as women.
My mum didn't, I did and that's opened our eyes and I looked at some stats recently
and I think in the 1990s, something like 25 percent of our lawyers were women.
Now it's 50 50, and it's pretty much the same in all those professions,
it's gone up and we are equal.
But we kind of need other bits of our lives and society and home life to catch
up and we speak to more dads now as well, who post pandemic have seen what
they've missed out on by going into the office and say, hang on, I want a
bit of family life, I want a work life balance and when we talk about a work
life balance, it doesn't mean you're giving any less to your work, that's
still an important part of our lives, but I think it just makes you better
at work because you're happier at home.
Howard Bentham: Tell us about the businesses you target then as a
recruitment agency, because I guess those businesses need to sort of buy
into your ethos and your philosophy, as you've just touched on there about
flexible working and not all of them do.
Helen Wright: It is a really good point, Howard.
The business is about 10 years old, and I kind of think of it pre pandemic and
post pandemic because there has been a massive shift pre pandemic, I did
talk about this workplace revolution that was happening, very slow, I'd
say it's not overnight, gradually.
When I started the business, I'd have to sometimes explain what flexible
working was to potential clients.
Now the language of work has changed and far from being a kind of gradual
revolution, it kind of did happen overnight with the pandemic and
more and more organisations are embracing hybrid and flexible working.
But we find we have always worked very well with the Oxford University kind
of startups and spin outs and I think that is because they're quite dynamic in
their thinking and their newly created roles and so, for example, they might
not have had anyone doing their marketing and then they go, do you know what?
We're ready for a marketer, but we don't really want to go from having no
one to having someone full time, maybe we'll just ease them in and have someone
three days a week and do you know what?
Because it's three days a week, we can afford someone who's really
good, we can afford that salary.
So they actually get really great talent and that's worked really well
and it's the same with SMEs and it's the same for the charity sector too.
We find that we can work really, really well and help complement their workforce
with some fantastic individuals.
Howard Bentham: I guess the, as you're talking about marketing, the name 923
is nine to three then, but that's not exclusively the hours people are working.
Helen Wright: Well, do you know what?
I mean, funnily enough, when you start a business, it is like, Oh
gosh, what should I call the business?
Before ChatGPT as well.
So we had to use our actual brains to try and come up with a name and honestly, the
number of conversations I've had around nine to three, some people just come up to
me and they go, it's the best name ever, I completely get it, I love it and other
people are like, 923, what do you mean?
And other people hate it and do you know what, it started out as being
nine to three school hour jobs, really, but it's just broadened
out into anything that's flexible.
It could be full time, but as long as there is that flex.
Howard Bentham: Share some stories around candidates or maybe the businesses, some
success stories that you've brought about.
Helen Wright: Gosh, where do I start, Howard?
so, you know, it's just, it's lovely speaking to candidates and we've
just taken on a new recruiter just this week actually and we always
sort of say the first few weeks of having these conversations with
candidates can be quite emotional.
I remember we had an office, pre pandemic, and I remember one of our
recruiters, the first call she had with a candidate and she came off the phone
in tears because it's just so emotional.
These women are just so grateful to be listened to and heard and believed in
to some extent, I suppose, you know, that careers aren't over because they've
had children and I think that's lovely and then when it comes to businesses,
it's just brilliant because we've placed people in part time roles and
a couple of years later, they're COO, they're on the board, they're directors.
Their careers have thrived and they've been so good, they have been
promoted within that organisation.
So we're really adding value to those businesses and I do believe that SMEs,
they're the backbone of our economy and it's just a privilege to work with them.
It sounds very cheesy and you know, past the sick bucket, but really it is
and it's just, I love seeing businesses grow and the different paths they take.
Howard Bentham: No, I can well believe that, coming from a
teaching background as well.
Yeah, watching anyone grow into a role is always really fulfilling, isn't it?
We'll come back to the here and now in a moment and 923 Jobs and
flexible working in a moment.
I just want to sort of unpick this broadcast journalist background of yours.
This was with the BBC and ITV amongst others, tell us about those times and
I just want to try and get the picture of Helen back then, if you like.
It sounds like a dream job, first of all, and then share with us
some of the scoops that you had.
Helen Wright: Oh gosh, Howard, you'll take me back now, I've bored my
children with them, they don't believe I actually had a different type of job.
Well, I suppose it was one of those careers that, I'd always wanted to do.
I wanted to be a broadcast journalist.
I did a history degree at Durham University and then I lived in China for
year and a half and I learned Mandarin there and taught children English and
that was a really incredible time actually and then back at home, I thought I need
to get a proper job, let's pursue my dream and so I did post grad at Cardiff
School of Journalism and then got into radio and took it from there and it was
just, it was exciting, it was great.
It covered some big stories.
I think one of the last ones I did, this is just aging me now, though, Howard,
was the Madeleine McCann disappearance in Portugal, which is very sad.
But other stories, I've done sporting stories, and I remember seeing David
Beckham training with Sven once, and very exciting, but all sorts of different
stories over the years and being out and about, I suppose and I suppose having
that background has taught me that you can have great transferable skills.
You know, when I sat down and thought I'm going to be a recruiter, I didn't realise
firstly, how hated recruiters were.
Oh my gosh, people hate recruiters.
It's like...
Howard Bentham: More so than journalists?
Helen Wright: Well then I thought that's okay.
People hate journalists too.
You know, I've been chased down the street with a baseball bat.
That's okay, I can deal with this and you know, the transferable skills
that you have, the communication skills and so on and so on.
Now I can apply that to other roles and I think that's
really, really useful, you know?
Howard Bentham: As you've touched on, your career came to an abrupt halt,
being maid redundant whilst pregnant.
It's not that uncommon, is it?
You've alluded to the stats.
I mean, that must have been a really difficult time though, for
you personally and professionally.
Someone's telling you that you can't do something and you're clearly
very independent minded, very driven human being, aren't you?
Helen Wright: I just, I do remember sitting in the newsroom and looking
around and it sounds a bit pathetic, but a little tear, I think maybe two
or three tears actually just rolled down my cheek because I'd looked around
and I thought I'm never going to get back to this and it's something that if
you've trained hard to do to get into that kind of profession, you have to
do all this work experience, you have to be knocking on doors, you have to do
the hard yards before you're actually allowed out on camera or whatever.
Howard Bentham: And not earning too much money in the process either.
Certainly at the bottom end.
Helen Wright: Yeah and I've got amazing memories.
I mean, you touched on it just now, but occasionally I'll see myself in the
background of some documentary about something or other, because I've been
reporting at the Old Bailey, for example and you do think, wow, what a great job
and I love, I still love the news, I love watching all the politics and so on.
So I've been very lucky to have that.
But it did dawn on me, I can't get back to that and that kind of role, I think,
doesn't sit well with having a family.
You know, I mentioned the Madame McCann story that, that happened and then it was
like, can you get on a flight like tonight or tomorrow, whatever you can't do that
when you're the main carer, I suppose and I knew that and then it's not for an old
woman, really, frankly, to be on telly.
So, I've made my peace with that, Howard and now I'm thrilled to be running
an award winning recruitment agency.
Howard Bentham: A new chapter is being written for sure.
Certainly around the being made redundant whilst pregnant issue.
The law in this country has recently changed it in this area, isn't it?
Giving pregnant women more rights.
Are you already seeing and hearing positive changes in that direction or not?
Helen Wright: I'm a bit of a cynic.
Howard Bentham: I can tell from your face, this is a probably not.
Helen Wright: A little bit of a cynic and I remember when, before I set up
923 Jobs, I was, as I said, applying for different jobs and my sister at the time
didn't have children and I'd written up my CV and I said, can you just read
it through for me, what do you think?
And I had put on there at some point, career break and the fact that I was
a mum of three and she'd said, you know, you don't have to put that on
your CV and I said, well, no, I know that, but I don't want to work anywhere
where I have to hide being a mum.
That is a big part of who I am and so that's the path I took and then
I didn't get any jobs, but there we go, now I set up the agency and,
we're having these conversations all the time around CVs and so on.
Howard Bentham: In what ways do you think motherhood has changed your
approach to business and leadership?
It's almost like there's a new you here somewhere, isn't there, from the days
of the smoke filled rooms, probably at the ITV or BBC or wherever you
were, or out on location to the new you now, are you a different person?
Has motherhood changed you?
Helen Wright: I think motherhood does, I think parenthood changes everyone
actually, because yeah, I mean, you're gonna get me thinking really deep.
I do need gin and tonic before I embark on that kind of conversation, Howard,
but sometimes we speak to clients who.
are quite open and they're not allowed, we're not allowed to talk, say this,
but they would say, we could just do with a mum in this job, someone who's a
multitasker, someone who can juggle a lot of things and we'll just get on and get
the job done and so perhaps being a parent does bring those skills you know, and I
do think regardless of whether you're a parent or not, just life experience is
really valuable, actually, and I think that can bring a lot to an organisation.
Howard Bentham: Let's bring in OxLEPs communications manager,
Rob Panting into the conversation.
Rob, good to see you.
Welcome to OxTalks once again, Rob.
Based on OxLEP's experience over the years, how often do we see this business
founders potentially spotting an issue or a challenge as Helen has done and creating
a solution through a new business site?
Rob Panting: Hi Howard, hi Helen.
Really great hearing Helen's story just now, absolutely fascinating stuff.
Yeah, from an OxLEP perspective, really quite a significant number.
In fact, when you look at our most recent impact report, which looks back
at the businesses that we've engaged during 2023 into 2024 in terms of those
pre startups that we work with, that accounts for around about a fifth of
those businesses that OxLEP supports, it's just short of 50 percent actually
of the startups, those businesses that we engage our startups rather.
So, in terms of those people coming to us with business ideas
or solutions, it's actually quite a significant proportion of those that
we support on a day to day basis.
I think probably where we come in, it's the practical support as everyone, we
spoke a lot about this on our podcast, people coming to us with an idea, but not
necessarily having the, natural business acumen to take the further forward and
turning it into an actual business itself.
But in terms of those people who are want to present a solution like Helen
has with regards to those looking to get into more flexible working environments,
it continues to be quite a high proportion of people that we engage with.
Howard Bentham: Post COVID, it's probably fair to say there's been a
bit of a shift, if you like, towards an employee's market, isn't it?
A buyer's market at the moment.
How important is it for businesses and a lot of these startups you're
talking about to consider that before committing to starting a new business?
Rob Panting: I think it is important.
I think, you know, when you start your own business, you have the
ability to create your own culture.
So I'm sure Helen, when you recruit your recruiters that you just
mentioned earlier on, the culture or the ability for that individual to
buy into the culture that you've set as an organisation is absolutely key.
Helen Wright: It's a really good point actually Rob, and that's
our number one criteria, so we don't really, hire recruiters.
We don't want them necessarily to come with a different type of ethos or maybe
bad practices and so it's all about, like you say, keeping that culture,
especially because we all work remotely.
I mean, that is key and I think understanding that helps us a little
bit when we work with clients too.
Howard Bentham: For the context for people watching and listening,
how many recruiters have you got?
What sort of size are we talking
Helen Wright: Well, pre pandemic, we were 14, but we scaled back
to two and now we're up to eight.
So, not huge, but we are ambitious to grow, but there we go.
Howard Bentham: But it's having those shared values that you
find this really helpful.
Helen Wright: And when we work remotely, so we're based in Surrey, Kent,
Oxfordshire, Berkshire, for a while, we had someone in Herefordshire and it's
just really important to trust each other, I suppose and we all care about, sounds
cheesy, but our cause, we really want to help candidates, we really want to
find the right people for our clients.
Rob Panting: I think it's also worth mentioning as well, when you say it's an
employee's market, I think it's changed.
I mean, you've just spoke about how your business has changed post pandemic
and obviously I think that is very much the case for pretty much every business
that OxLEP engages with, who were operating pre pandemic and post pandemic.
It is very much an employee's market and I think employers have to really
take that into consideration in terms of, okay, well, this is the
culture that we need to create.
If we want to get the best talent, we need to, I don't say compromise,
but perhaps we may have operated a certain way five to 10 years ago.
We need to embrace this employee's market, whether that's embracing flexibility
more readily, whether it's perhaps embracing technology a little bit more
readily than what they did pre pandemic.
It's changed a lot.
Helen Wright: That is a very good point and I think it takes quite
a brave step actually, to try and think about changing your culture.
So we would work very easily with organisations that already
offer some flex and it might be that it's a part time job, fine.
That's great or it might be that everyone works hybrid, for example.
But when we're coming in and organisations have come to us because they're struggling
to hire, because everyone wants hybrid and they don't know where to start because
they're in the office, we can help with that, but it's not an easy journey.
You know, I recognise that.
I remember speaking to, This is a very much a fail story, but I was speaking to
a firm of accountants and they, I said, what are your problems with recruitment?
And they're like, people are leaving, we're just really struggling to
find replacement accountants.
I was like, we've got accountants, we can help, what flex do you offer?
We don't offer any flex.
Full time in the office.
Okay, have you thought...?
It won't work.
Just won't work.
I said, well, where are the accountants going who are leaving you?
Well, they're going to other firms.
Right.
Are they offering flex?
Yeah, they can all work from home.
Right.
So it can work within your environment because these
other companies are thriving.
Yeah.
Would you like to have a go?
We can hold your hand through it.
No, No, no, no.
We failed there, but I thought there are some people who don't want to flex,
and that's fine, that's absolutely fine.
But if they do want to flex, they can give me a call.
Howard Bentham: Just picking up on something that Rob said there, how
did you go about starting your own business, Helen, those very early
days, because you've gone from being a broadcast journalist, a good mum, good
parents, that doesn't necessarily make you a great business person, does it?
So it's great to have the idea.
who was holding your hand, if you like.
Helen Wright: I would say anyone can do it.
Nowadays, it's easy to set up, I don't know, Facebook, website, whatever
you need to do, have a go and lots of people are like, I think 75 percent of
the under 25s have got a side hustle, which I find quite exciting and do you
know, I went, it might've been an event organised by OxLEP, I can't remember.
I'd set it up in 2015 and then 2016 there was like a pitch your business event
in Bicester or something and it might, people from OxLEP were definitely there.
and I pitch, I didn't win, didn't win, but...
Rob Panting: Definitely wasn't us then in which case!
Helen Wright: I was, I'm in touch with two of the other people who were
pitching and at that event, I met someone who said, Oh, we've got an
incubator programme running in Oxford in a couple of months time, give me a
call, you'd be quite good to go on it.
Went on that and that sort of was really interesting for me because
it was things like your homework for this week is to do a PowerPoint
on your whatever, I don't know.
marketing strategy or whatever it was and I thought, I've never
done a PowerPoint, this is fun.
Literally everything was new and I kind of think that's quite good fun.
that kept it all fresh and good cause you know, being in broadcast
journalism, I'm just doing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, talk.
I knew what I was doing in the newsroom, but this was different.
So I had a steep learning curve and I'm still learning.
You know, there are great things that OxLEP offer and I've done a course
run at Oxford Brookes about helping to grow your business and that's a
great thing about business, isn't it?
You know, you just keep learning, don't forget to work on your
business, not just in it.
Howard Bentham: Yeah and that, funny, the mentors as well, and people that, they
might not even be in the same industry as you, but somebody that you can talk to.
Helen Wright: Oh my gosh.
Howard Bentham: So important.
Helen Wright: Yeah.
Oh, so important.
It's so lonely running a business.
Gosh, yeah.
It really is important.
And it's, hard.
There's stuff going on all the time and you've got to do everything,
all the time, it's so difficult.
But you know what?
There are people who love it and they wouldn't change it and I
think I'm one of those people.
Howard Bentham: It sounds very much like running a family.
Helen Wright: Yes, maybe.
Howard Bentham: There's always something going on, isn't there?
Rob, any specific programs in place that individuals, startups, whatever
can access in the sort of scenario we're talking about here with Helen?
Rob Panting: Yeah, quite a number in fact.
So at the moment we have a couple of programmes that are due to run through
until March next year, specifically for businesses and individuals who are
based in West Oxfordshire and Cherwell.
So we have a programme called the Spark Programme, which is there to
support entrepreneurs, those looking to start up businesses, fascinating
stat that you just said about under 25s, which really rings true with
regard to that particular programme.
So the Spark programme is there.
Also the Accelerator programme, again in West Oxfordshire and Cherwell,
specifically to help more established businesses on their growth journey and
away from that, sort of the day to day support, I suppose, our Peer Networks
programme remains very popular.
I think, like Helen says, having a network of individuals who not only
have common challenges or opportunities, but operate in the same space as you,
not necessarily the same sector, but the same space in terms of business
responsibility and perhaps a desire to move forward with the business that
continues to be very, very popular.
Probably should mention the Women in Business programme that we run as well,
which is an ongoing networking session which has got several dozen women in
business, leaders in particular coming together and again, sort of sharing
best practice, sharing challenge.
So as Helen says, and it's not just OxLEP, but there's lots of support out there, a
little bit of homework online to find out which business support options are right
for you and I think people are genuinely surprised as to what support is available.
Howard Bentham: You wanted to pick up on that about the women in business?
Helen Wright: Oh, it's actually just before that point, just the peer to peer
network and just how important that is and just being able to get things off
your chest, I suppose, to some extent, in a trusted environment and not really
even in the same sector and sometimes we find that we can help clients finding,
I don't know, say they want a digital marketer, they don't actually need
someone with the expertise in their sector because they've got that in house.
They just want someone to come in who's got the fresh ideas, who can do that and
sometimes having a fresh pair of eyes on things, is really valuable and you can
just give yourself a new boost, a new lease of life in that area of business.
Rob Panting: I do think that the ability to engage with people from different
sectors is massively important because you get a different viewpoint and you come
up with ideas quite often off the back of it as to, okay, this is a different
way of moving forward with a particular challenge or opportunity that I have and
certainly the feedback that we get is that the peer network type events are
really important to help businesses, not to financially grow necessarily,
but to grow, to stand on their own two feet with new ideas and new potential.
So yeah, that's definitely the feedback we get.
Howard Bentham: I'm intrigued as to what your vision was when you started
and sort of, if you like, the why?
Helen Wright: Taking over the world Howard, obviously!
Howard Bentham: Was it world domination and possibly a pop at the
US presidential election in the future?
Or is it, we needed a bit of pin money for to buy family holidays or whatever?
Helen Wright: It was a former, definitely more the former, yeah and it continues
to be expansion, if not global expansion, although I've got a great mentor and
he's in London and he's in recruitment and he, whenever I go and have a coffee
with him, I'm like going, right, I'm going to open a Hong Kong office and
I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and I get a bit carried away
because maybe all entrepreneurs are the same, but it's tangible and I do
remember sort of setting this up and I wonder whether other people feel like
this, but you have these goals in your head and you think, when I get there,
oh my gosh, I'm going to have a bottle of champagne and I'm going to celebrate,
it's going to be amazing and then you kind of get there and you're like, yeah,
actually my goal has changed and it's the next step and it's the next step.
So at the moment is geographical expansion within the UK, is the next
thing, watch 2025, there you go.
Howard Bentham: Geographical expansion, okay.
We'll definitely keep an eye on that one.
You're an award winner now, which is a great, a number of accolades.
Would you describe yourself as a social entrepreneur, actually somebody
who's influencing genuine change?
Helen Wright: Oh, Howard, that is another deeper, meaningful question.
Oh my gosh.
Howard Bentham: That's another gin and tonic.
Helen Wright: Thank you.
Howard Bentham: you're not driving home.
Helen Wright: I would say that this space has been very active, the flexible
working space for, since I set up so about 10 years, similar sorts of time to me,
there were people who I would say have really garnered genuine massive change.
Jolie Brearley set up Pregnant and Screwed Charity and the White House
set up Flex Appeal, they're very in the public eye within this space, and.
I always joke with the 923 Jobs team that we're sort of hunched over our laptops
on our phones, doing the nitty gritty of actually finding the jobs and getting
people into these flexible jobs and then there are some cooler people who are
the face, the cool face of it all and I think we need people to bang the drum.
So I think they're amazing and it is an exciting space to be involved in,
because I do think post pandemic, everyone's talking about flexible working
and it's not just about mums, it's not just about dads, it's about everyone.
Howard Bentham: Helen and Rob, thank you both for the moment,
we'll chat again shortly.
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Howard Bentham: Let's speak more with Rob Panting from OxLEP and Helen
Wright from 923 Jobs from Oxfordshire.
Rob, you're a new dad and congratulations on that.
Four day week, you work with OxLEP, you've adopted this sort of flexible
working approach after a trial period.
Rob Panting: Still remain to trial through to March.
Howard Bentham: And Helen, you're, shall we say, something of a...
Helen Wright: Living the dream, Howard,
Howard Bentham: I was going to go flexible working champion, but
if you want to call it living the dream, I'm more than happy with that.
Rob, tell us how your four day week has helped you find a better work
life balance, give us some sort of tangible examples, if you would.
Rob Panting: Yeah, I mean, the obvious thing to say is being a new dad, 18 months
ago my son was born and it's given me more time and more opportunity to enjoy being
a dad, an opportunity that might not have occurred in other working environments.
So that is a strong driver, I guess, in terms of what I
gained from a four day week.
I do think that the introduction of the four day week, from a work life balance
perspective, it helps to create division, positive division, obviously, in terms
of what is work and what is personal time, because I think as an organisation,
OxLEP, we have adopted this trial, for around about the same period of time
that my son came around through to now.
So, from my perspective, it's created a clear gap between, okay, this is work
time and this is personal time, and that has driven me personally I feel, to
be much more, I know it's very easy to use the word productive, but I am very
much geared towards being productive in a workspace because I know that I've
got some good personal time around the corner and actually it's created, in my
opinion, a much sort of healthier and dare I say, more mindful person, I think,
compared to perhaps, where I was 10, 15 years ago, even longer than that in a
workspace where it was very much geared towards, this is my job, I mean work
should come first in a lot of things, but family should come first, you know,
in a lot of things too, but I think probably, you know, as you're emerging
in your career, you're willing, like you described earlier Helen, in terms of your
capability of jumping on a plane to go out to a job without any ramifications.
But I do think that the four day week in this instance, but flexible
working arrangements in general do allow you to create that space that you
might want for your family or indeed any other interests that you have.
Howard Bentham: How'd you get your working day to fit around your family, Helen?
Helen Wright: Oh, I think that evolves, doesn't it, with as
the children grow and so on.
But I'm interested in Rob, and how OxLEP have adopted the four day week, because
that's four days on full time pay, which, I mean, the UK had the world's biggest
trial of this, and loads of companies took part, and the outstanding result
was that productivity either remained the same or increased and everyone's
really surprised by that, and I'm a massive fan of flexible working and I
was surprised, and I've been speaking to different organisations and I've spoken to
people from OxLEP in the past about this.
How is that?
How can that be?
And Rob, I'd be interested to see what you say, but A, you've spoken that your
more positive mentally about your job, so I suppose you're more engaged in your
job when you're there doing it and also people have said they just work smarter.
You know, we've all sat in meetings where actually the first 15 minutes
we're just yapping and we're not getting anything done, but actually
we've got all this amazing technology and everything, we can work smarter.
We can get more done.
Well, why are we still doing nine to five Monday to Friday?
That's what we were doing a hundred years ago, come on guys!
Rob Panting: Yeah.
Howard Bentham: Well, rewind further back than that, it
was a six day week, wasn't it?
And then when it went to five, shock horror, the world didn't end did it?
Helen Wright: It's time, isn't it, to change.
So, I mean, I'm really lucky.
I mean, that was a founding sort of reason for why I founded this business
to fit in around my children and so occasionally, all entrepreneurs will know
this, your business is like a baby to you.
So occasionally I've had to have my sister say, Helen, Helen, stop, remember
why you're doing this, you can go to the nativity, you can switch the laptop,
you can do this and that's important and that's how I run the business now.
So the team all work flexibly.
They all work part time because it's really important, you know, outside
of work, it's key important time.
Howard Bentham: What about your other halves, if I may ask?
What about you, Helen?
Do they have the luxury of, working flexibly?
Helen Wright: So, well, my husband is a, he's a neurosurgeon and so he is often
on call and has been over the years.
So I suppose when the children were young, I remember that the longest time was
21 days when he didn't see the children because he'd just be working nights and
days and weekends and just solid, and if he, when he did come home and they were
in bed, it's easier now and actually post pandemic, interestingly, I've found
doctors are able to have more remote meetings where they all dial in, which I
mean, personally, I mean, I think it's a good thing because it means that Dan can
be at home sometimes when previously he wouldn't be, but also they can collaborate
with other hospitals perhaps and it's easy to share slides of, I don't know
what they had, I do pay attention to what he does, but I think x rays or
something and they can all look at it, but they can also bring in expertise
from even around the world quite easily.
Howard Bentham: So even brain surgery can be done working from home, what about your
other half, Rob, and flexible working?
Because that really does impact.
I mean, just hearing Helen's story there about her husband, 21 days without
seeing the kids because of the work schedule, what about your situation?
Rob Panting: So my wife works in the hospitality industry.
I guess you can't really sort of manage when an individual is getting
married, for example, or if there's a particular event happening and quite
often those are during, I guess what we would typically class as unsociable
hours, weekends, evenings, et cetera.
My wife's been able to take advantage of a flexible working request.
So when she returned from a maternity leave, she changed to a part time
contract, which the company agreed to and that's in the hospitality industry,
which I guess is probably an industry which, you know, at arm's length, you
would think, okay, maybe that's an organisation that may, don't say struggle
to adapt, but they very much need their people in a space at one particular time.
Helen Wright: You can't serve a coffee remotely, can you, you know.
Rob Panting: Exactly.
But thankfully, you know, that's worked to our advantage and the impact on us as a
family is a positive one because it allows us to manage nursery time really well.
It allows us to, my son goes to a great nursery, but it means that we can afford
not to send him to nursery five days a week, which to be honest, typically,
if the organisation that I've worked at several years ago, or organisations
I've worked at several years ago, we would have been five days a week in the
office, my wife would have been three, four, five days a week in a location.
It's five days at nursery or you're relying on grandparents for support
and the cost of childcare as well.
Howard Bentham: It's just such an area that, I mean, you can spend
a whole OxTalks talking about this and the impact it has on families,
but yeah, so many people go to work purely to pay for the cost childcare.
Helen Wright: We speak to candidates who can't afford to go to work because
they wouldn't get paid enoenough to cover the childcare costs, you know,
and it's ridiculous, and talking about your example there with your
other half and hospitality, we would sometimes say, have organisations
thought about job share, because then you can retain these candidates
who have got all that experience and let's face it, if you've got younger
people coming in, that experience is really valuable to an organisation.
In fact, recently I've been speaking to a candidate looking to come back from
a short career break because she's had her first child and she was in events
and it's very much the same sort of situation where it's a lot of weekends,
it's quite relentless, I think, especially building up to a big event and happily
we have a client who just got in touch.
She said, we're looking for someone one day a week.
So she's delighted and that could be a good thing for both parties.
Howard Bentham: Helen, critics of flexible working, say it can create a fragmented
and potentially divided workforce.
I'm just intrigued to get your thoughts on this because the fact that some roles
offer full flexibility, if you like and others just due to their nature, do not
even sort of looking at your husband's work there and this can even be within
the same organisation or company.
It can appear that, if you like, some employees are being treated differently.
That can then lead to conflict and resentment in the workplace.
Do you find this and do you accept that as a fair criticism?
Helen Wright: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point and I remember
speaking to an organisation and they said that they were wanting to
introduce flexible working with some remote working, but they had a team.
I think they were the IT team who couldn't work remotely because the
servers were in a certain building and so they felt that it wouldn't work very
well when people are kind of having a half day from home or something,
walking past this team who weren't able to leave and I get that and I always
say every single business is different.
I mean, Rob, you'll know the stats.
I think in Oxfordshire, what are there?
50, 000 businesses in Oxfordshire?
Rob Panting: Yeah.
Helen Wright: 50, 000.
They're all different.
We shouldn't treat them all with the same.
It shouldn't be a one size fits all and that's the beauty about flexible
working, you can really make it work for your business and that is the key point.
So I'm a big fan of flexible working, but if it doesn't work for your business, then
there's no point, it won't work at all.
it has to work for your business and I think going back to one of Rob's points
earlier about the fact that OxLEP have been trialing the four day week, I always
say there's no harm in trialing something.
Communication, speak to your team, see what the mood is there, see if it works
and if it's trial, you can always go back, but you never know, you might
uncover this most amazing way of working.
Howard Bentham: There's also a school of thoughts that argues that having
children is a choice and that any specific help that parents receive is perceived
as not being fair, if you like, by those who choose not to have children.
Is that a fair criticism?
Helen Wright: It's a criticism that is a little bit tedious, in
my opinion, if I can say that.
I mean, before I had children, I was kind of, I don't really want to have
children, I'm just focused on my career, you know, as a lot of young people are.
So I can vaguely remember those times.
I think it is a choice, but at the end of the day, we've all got parents, I
suppose and I mean, I do feel that our society has come on to the point where
actually the wife, much to my husband's disappointment, isn't there at home
with slippers and a pipe, you know, with dinner on the table or whatever.
We've changed and I do think that's for the better, but interesting times, really.
Rob Panting: I'd probably throw in there as well, that the greater flexibility
probably sits with me in terms of my working arrangement versus my wife, who
probably doesn't have as much flexibility because she works in weddings and events.
So sort of touching on the question slightly, Howard, the working arrangements
within families and individuals probably in the last 10, 15 years has really
changed quite dramatically from the sort of traditional working arrangements in
families, which, you know, we would have all had, growing up 20, 30, 40 years
ago, you know, I think it's, one of those which has evolved positively and the
ability to introduce flexibility in the workplace that has a massive impact on
people's home life and outlook, I think.
Helen Wright: I mean, I think it's really important that dads like
you, Rob, would step up and say, I want to embrace flexible working.
I've spoken to dads over the years and I remember one great, really
great candidate, actually, and his wife happened to have the big job.
So they decided that he would be the one to work part time and
take most of the childcare and he said, I can't get a part time job.
Going to interviews and people are saying, but you're a man, why
do you want to work part time?
And he's sort of tearing his hair out.
But I think we need to kind of normalise this and that's where I think campaigns
around paternity leave, shared parental leave, this is all really positive
and you know, we spoke to a fantastic candidate just a couple of months ago.
She says, I don't have children, but I love sailing and I
love my life outside of work.
I do a great job when I'm at work, but actually I want a better
work life balance and so that was her driving force, you know.
Howard Bentham: Let me throw this in, or I don't want to sound like
the Daily Mail here, but is flexible working actually a slacker's charter?
Just there's very little hard evidence that productivity is as good when people
are either working from home or with different working hours, under a flexible
working plan compared to the employee that's in the office all the time.
Helen Wright: There's lots of evidence, Howard, actually.
I love this
Howard Bentham: Think you can look for evidence on both sides.
Helen Wright: But this is a great stat, so I always reel this out.
So you've probably heard it before and it is a little bit old now, but
if you've got a worker in an office, nine to five, regular job, office
job, of those eight hours, how many hours are they actually doing their
job that they're being paid to do?
Give me a guess.
Howard Bentham: Five.
Helen Wright: You think five, Howard, you think Rob?
Rob Panting: I'll go typical, slightly lower, four hours, fifty nine minutes.
Helen Wright: Okay, it's actually two hours fifty five.
So for the other five hours, they are going to the loo, going for coffee,
chatting in the kitchen, making a cup of tea, scrolling through some social media,
doing some shopping and the stats show that if you're working remotely, or even
if you're working in the office but you're working flexibly, you are more engaged.
I think you're a third more engaged.
So productivity therefore would go up, but I always go back to the point, if you've
got a team who doesn't believe in it, then it's not going to work for your business.
But if you can just let go and embrace it, trust me, you'll see the huge benefits.
I remember, so, I was very excited when, 923 Jobs graduated to the status
of having an office, because we started at my kitchen table, then we had an
office, loved that office, oh my gosh, you can imagine and we were all, the
whole team, we all happened to be women.
At Christmas time, we'd have the Christmas tree, we'd get the decorations,
potpourri, I had framed photos of everyone around, it was lovely, loved it.
Pandemic came and the office closed for obvious reasons.
But when people were in the office, I do remember thinking, they're not working,
they're talking, they're having a nice time and now everyone works remotely
and I don't have those thoughts and I can see on the software that we use that
people are doing what they say they're doing and we have our regular meetings
and they're being just as efficient, if not more efficient and anecdotally,
you do hear that people kind of want to prove that they're working, they kind of
overwork when they're working flexibly.
I will get off my soapbox now, but...
Rob Panting: I guess just a follow up as well on, on Helen's point.
I do think that the overriding factor is a company's willingness to embrace
a flexible working arrangement and to be fair, you know, OxLEP,
we operate the four day week as mentioned, and we also work from home.
So we're a remote business.
So we do still maintain an office space, an office environment and
there are times when actually I feel I need that one to one engagement
or one to many engagement with.
with colleagues, that's something that I've missed, I think it's
to create that environment.
Helen Wright: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Rob Panting: But I do think that ultimately is the company culture
that will make a flexible working arrangement a success or not a success.
If you're going into it with the views that it's not going to work, the
chances are that it's not going to work.
Helen Wright: I mean, I've spoken to really large organisations about this in
the past when they've been struggling.
I think especially, I think it's a sexist thing to say, but often women kind of
get stuck at a certain level within an organisation and so again, anecdotally,
they don't really want to be promoted beyond that because that would impact
their work life balance and all the other juggling things they have to do and
organisations have said to us, well how can we remove that blockage, I suppose.
But again, it comes down to the individual organisations and then
with these larger organisations, big corporates, they would say, well, actually
flexible working would work within that team, they love it there, but not in
this team over here because, I don't know, Derek has very much against it.
Do you know what I mean?
And I think we are in interesting times, you know, workplaces are evolving, they're
changing and that's to be embraced.
Howard Bentham: Do you think flexible working is here to stay?
It's the end for the nine to five?
Helen Wright: Yes.
Yes, of course.
Didn't even pause for breath, Howard.
Of course I do, yes.
I think the appetite is there.
and I think that's because it's not just about moms, it's not just about dads, it's
just about everyone realising that there is more outside of work and as I said,
the younger people are actually looking for that way of working too and for years,
there's been the chat around expensive housing in London, so moving jobs further
away from London, people might say, I go to London once a week, that's doable.
But anyway, we can go around in circles on this, but I do think it's here.
I think some of the larger organisations are pulling people
back to the office for sure.
But part of me thinks that's because they have big leases or they actually
own the offices and so they do have that financial incentive and then some groups,
for example, legal firms or accountants, they would say, we need to teach the
trainees as they come through and there is an element of that and I would always
say, try out different things, try out different ways of doing things because
you never know what might be possible.
Howard Bentham: Maybe as a society, is there more that could be done,
either from the government down, legislation, whatever it might be,
to enable better flexible working.
Helen Wright: I think with flexible working, I think often
it's people leading by example.
I mean, I think we'll all remember the sort of days where, you know, jacket
on the back of the office chair, who can burn the candle the latest and
that kind of thing, that bravado I suppose and I kind of think it doesn't
really make you more productive, you know, and I've been in newsrooms where
actually people work long, but actually two hours during the day, they were
down the pub, you know what I mean?
Those were the days.
So I think our perception of things has changed and I think graduates now
coming through, I think their way of looking at things has changed too.
I don't know, Rob, what are you seeing?
Rob Panting: Well, I was just going to add, obviously, I
think it was in March this year.
The law was changed.
So it is now as an employee, you have the statutory...
Helen Wright: Right to request flexible working.
Rob Panting: From day one.
So from that perspective, as an employee, you are supported by law
to approach your employer to create a flexible working arrangement.
So from that perspective, I guess it's the employers that should be catching
up on how they embrace flexible working and I and I think, ultimately
a business does have to look at their bottom line as well, they need
to ensure that they're profitable, they're able to keep people in jobs.
Helen Wright: that, there is no business.
There are no jobs.
You know, that is the priority as far as I'm concerned.
Rob Panting: Exactly and sometimes I suppose, it's important that it
doesn't tilt too far in the other direction, because obviously if you
create ultimate flexible working, there's, I guess, there might be the
opportunity that the business can't perform to the ability that it wants to.
Helen Wright: I like that though, Rob, ultimate flexible working.
I might sort of pinch that, that's amazing.
What does it mean?
I mean, I've spoken to organisations who have offered unlimited annual leave,
is that the ultimate flexible working?
Do you know what happens, Howard, with people who, companies that do that?
They don't take as much leave cause they don't need it, whereas if you've
got 25 days on your leave, it's like, Oh, I've still got two days
left, I'm going to take those days.
Whereas if it's unlimited, you just kind of take what you need,
as long as your job's done.
Is that utopia?
Is that what we'd all love?
I don't know.
Will it work or will there always be a few people who spoil it.
Rob Panting: Yeah.
I mean, I think ultimately, so long as a business is successful, that's probably
what they're looking for aren't they?
They need to be profitable, they need to keep people in work, they
need to meet their objectives and that's ultimately what they're
looking for and who knows, I think if a business can embrace flexibility
properly, then, that ultimately is a good position, I think to be in.
Helen Wright: And I think not to be scared of it and to use it as a tool for good,
you know, not to think, Oh gosh, we've got a flexible working request just to go,
actually, we're going to be on the front foot with this, and we're going to see the
positives that flexible working can bring.
Rob Panting: Yeah.
Howard Bentham: Let's finally metaphorically head back to that
Oxfordshire playground with those super qualified and experienced mums pushing
their kids on the swings, who may be listening to our conversation and enjoying
OxTalks, what's your message to them and others that feel they may want to dip
their toe back into the world of work.
Helen Wright: I would welcome them to contact 923 Jobs and one of us
would be delighted to have a chat.
I think candidates at that stage in their life, often they're lacking in
confidence and sometimes just the step of putting a CV together, they can
remember their old selves and they can remember all their achievements and that
in itself is a really positive step and I think if you're in a position to hire.
I would say, have a think about how you're structuring your business and
make sure you're hiring candidates because you need that role filled, not
just because you're replacing someone who's left, for example, what's the
best thing for your business and go for it, you know, it's exciting times.
Howard Bentham: A huge thank you to Helen Wright from 923 Jobs in Oxfordshire,
thanks also to OxLEPs Rob Panting too and thank you for listening to OxTalks.
This is the last OxTalks in the current series, but we will be
back in 2025 with more great guests and fascinating conversations.
Meanwhile, why not enjoy some of the previous editions of OxTalks, available
from where you normally get your podcasts.
Let me point you towards an earlier episode featuring Grae Laws, Managing
Director of Beyond Touch and Guy Gadney, CEO of charisma AI with some
top tips for using AI in your business.
There's Amit Dhaliwal, Chief Executive at Walfinch and his sister Kam Gill,
managing director at Walfinch Oxfordshire, discussing the key challenges facing
the care sector whilst finding the right talent to support future growth
and check out my conversation with Melanie Tattersall from Darcica
Logistics with some practical steps to growing a sustainable business.
Every episode is well worth a listen, please spread the word or tell your
friends or colleagues about us and if you feel so inclined, leave us a review.
You can share your thoughts and suggestions on our social channels
and you can email your ideas for inclusion in future editions too, the
address is on the podcast description.
Business support in Oxfordshire is very close at hand.
OxLEP is at your service.
The OxLEP Business support Tool can signpost you to expert
help in a matter of minutes.
Why not take a look?
Find it on our website, Oxfordshirelep.
com.
But for now, from the whole OxLEP team, and from me, Howard Bentham, it's goodbye.