[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond. 

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee, Dan Hammond, you are being rather professorial on friday, goodness 

[00:00:19] Dan: hoping not expecting that of me. Um, no, but I am indeed going to, uh, lo a local university to Leeds University Business School, actually on Friday. And, working with our guest today, who's kindly invited me to be one of their industry panel for actually the outcome of the sort of, the course that we're gonna be talking about, um, today with Professor Tony Morgan, all about innovation.

[00:00:44] And it's honestly, Pia, I went there, um, had the chance to go there and visit the program as it was running, and it was just a total eye-opener to see how the teaching is done, to see the, you know, just he'll talk about this. But seeing these 10 teams working in the same room, learning, uh, how to work better as a team to innovate, use, design thinking and all of these things, it was absolutely wonderful. So I can't wait to see the outcomes that they've, uh, that they've arrived at. 

[00:01:11] Pia: and what do you think our listener will be looking out for? What's what? What's gonna be the little bit of gold that's gonna be gleaned out of this? 

[00:01:18] Dan: Yeah, I think this show's gonna be really good for anyone who wants to innovate. Better with their team to find new solutions in particular, if they find it, that they've sort of stuck in old ways. I think there's a, there's a real gem in this, um, in this interview that's going to make people think differently about how to maybe step back and approach things in a different way. So, um, let's go and hear from Tony now. 

[00:01:47] Pia: And a really big warm welcome to Tony Morgan

[00:01:50] Tony: Thank you very much. 

[00:01:51] Pia: On this cold, chilly, snowy morning. A nice warm welcome. As we, um, deliver this podcast from different ends of the world with, with extremes of weather, which is quite normal at this time of year,

[00:02:05] Dan: You've flown to Melbourne, haven't you, Pia? And you are 

[00:02:08] Pia: I've just screeched in. but managed to take this contraption of my podcast through, through security, so there we go. Lovely to have you with us, Tony. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So you're probably a little well versed this, I, I hand you over to Dan and he now ask you a tricky question, color coded.

[00:02:28] Dan: Color coded. Yeah. And actually this is a, this could be an interesting one. So it's a green card, so it should be easy, but May, who knows? It's a, it is very personal. Um, so what everyone said I would be, when I grew up. Did they say professor?

[00:02:43] Tony: No, no, no. I, I, I don't think anybody had any idea. Um, I, I, I come from a family that nobody had been to university before I went to university. Um, so I think that's a hard one for me. I don't think, I don't think there was any sort of background aspirations or targets or anything. I think, uh, uh, my dad gave me some very good advice. He said, do things you enjoy. So I think that was the good advice from my dad.

[00:03:08] I left university and had a very short career in accountancy as a trainee, chartered accountant. After, uh, very quickly I realized it wasn't for me. I went into it and then spent 30 years working in IT and technology. And then despite the gray hair, which you can't see on the podcast, um, I made, um, uh, a late career change into academia about four or five years ago.

[00:03:29] But I was very lucky because um. I was, I did a couple of visits to universities, and one of my former colleagues said, if you, if you're really interested this university stuff, you should consider maybe doing a visitor visiting professorship and the role Academy of Engineering support them. But when the visiting professorship finished, I thought, do I really want to travel around or keep traveling around all the time? And the university, um, were quite keen as well. So I sort of changed jobs quite late in life to have a sort of second or third career, which I think will become increasingly, um, common in future that people, you know, move between industries, particularly as things like, um, artificial intelligence and so on increasingly disrupt lots of injury, um, industries. I'm sure lots of my students today will go through multiple career changes. 

[00:04:15] Pia: I think that's quite, I found that quite a aspirational actually because I, I, I would love to. I think it would be my fourth career change. I would love to do some, do the, I've always been involved in, in education. It would be really nice to sort of take that back into university.

[00:04:30] Tony: And I found one of the things in my sort of last number of years at, um, IBMI was really enjoyed running. I've become one of the innovation leaders and, um, I really enjoyed running innovation projects where we bought, um, early career professionals, so interns, uh, um, people from placements, sometimes apprentices, sometimes new graduates, and we use what I think of as their unconstrained thinking, allied with experienced technology, people from IBM and knowledgeable business people from our customers. You put the three groups together and they could always create something much better than any of those one groups could create on their own.

[00:05:06] And that did inspire me. I, I loved working with those, uh, younger people. And um, I think that was one of the things that led me towards the sort of university area as well. So I've taken some of that thinking and learning into academia, if you like. 

[00:05:19] Dan: So take us into that world, Tony. What? What do you, what do you get up to now? Bring us up. Bring us up to speed.

[00:05:24] Tony: Yeah, so it's, well, I think it's quite interesting. I work, um, primarily in the business school at Leeds University, so Leeds University Business School, but also in the engineering and physical sciences, um, faculty. So I, I'll do a little bit there. Um, my main role is I lead, um, a growing cluster of innovation practice modules. So these, uh, where we get teams of students from different areas across the university, working on real world innovation challenges, and the students go through a series of facilitated activities to develop their projects.

[00:05:57] It's partly about innovation, but I would say, even more than that, it's about key employability and, and wider life skills. So, working in a diverse team, which is obviously something, um, you guys know a lot about. Um, but also communication skills, commercial awareness, resilience. Uh, Dan, you, you did a visit to, um, one of my modules and that was great, you came in the classroom. But you'll have seen that one of the things we do halfway through the module, um, is that we say to the students, You're doing really well, but actually I've got this strange email from all your sponsors last night, says please, can you have a different idea and do something different? 

[00:06:34] And, um. It sort of goes down really not very well at first. So I get 70 students sitting in the classroom folding their arms, staring at me. I had one person cry once. Um, so what's wrong? Uh, well, I loved their idea and I said, well, the, this is about innovation's iterative, but also the catchphrase of the module is Fall in love with the problem, not the solution. And the real message of it. Uh, and my friend and, and your friend Ian Smith, um, comes in that week as well to talk about industry examples of when things have changed. But the real learning is stuff happens. In the workplace like this, and learning to be resilient, to manage those changes and turn them in from a problem into an opportunity is a great skill for students to have.

[00:07:20] And by the end of the module, lots of our students are saying that was the, even though it really hurt them at the time, that's their biggest learning point. And the thing that they'll take for one of the things they'll take for. 

[00:07:31] Dan: It was fascinating 'cause I came in, you, I was very fortunate to come in and, um, be one of the industry partners on the following week. So I was almost seeing them in their, in one of the other stages of change, you know, slightly in mourning. And it was fascinating 'cause that was why I asked them How did you go with that? And there was definitely attachment to, they said it was a nightmare. You know, we were really unchuffed. But I would say eight outta 10. You've probably got the data on this Tony, but eight outta 10 of the team said, we've got, actually got something better now. Our last idea, we sort of, maybe it wasn't that well formed. And so yeah. Fascinating, insight into innovation, how they were all mo mostly happier that with their solution now.

[00:08:10] Tony: And, and I think that, um, the fact it has impact on them that they don't like it, that it, it, it feels bad, really deepens their learning because, um, you know, they won't forget that experience. And, um, we then do a lot about resilience and building and how helping them individually and as a team recover and use the power of the team. Um, they're not starting from scratch. They know much, so much more about their challenges when they started. What was maybe not a hundred percent about your previous solution, where maybe it didn't have a wow factor, did it not quite hit the mark, how can you come up with something that will really address some of the issues maybe you, you previously had, even if you lacked your previous idea? So, um, all those things. But yeah, I think the fact that it hurts, um, makes the learning deeper.

[00:08:56] Pia: And what do you notice? So how does the team respond? So, I mean, how do you actually tell them? Do you send, do you do it by text? It's like dumping a sort of girlfriend, boyfriend or something, but no, do, do you

[00:09:08] Tony: face-to-face. So we have the 10 teams of students with about seven students in. We have a collaborative classroom, which is great. They've all got a table, they sit around each week. Um, so at the beginning, same as every other week sort of, you know, this week session is all about change and resilience. Then a little bit of preamble about innovation management being iterative and design thinking. We use a lot of design thinking techniques being a very iterative approach. We talk about the figure of eight loop, it's not a straight line, you know, we are going back and forth.

[00:09:35] And then we say, then I say this thing about, um, oh, I had an email last night from all your project sponsors, um, saying that really like what you've done, but actually please can you change your idea? And then I leave a bit of a space and a gap and the sort of the 

[00:09:52] Pia: And sharp intake of air.

[00:09:54] Tony: and the choir, the hush in the classroom. Again, that deepens the impact. And then we do a series of activities. So spend five minutes thinking about how you feel. Then have a 10 minute discussion in your team. Um, and this, I'll come back to diverge, converge, hopefully later on. But, so they diverge their own thoughts, then they bring them together as a team.

[00:10:14] Then we do a little bit more about, well actually now there's a number of things you can do. You can try and fight this issue and try and change it, but that won't work because this is one of the design points of the module. You can think about what do you know that you didn't know before? Um, how can you turn this problem into an opportunity. And then we sort of give them some time to then start generating new ideas.

[00:10:35] But also reviewing all the, all the work they've done to date, because that's so important. Everything they've learned is gonna help them create a new idea. So, um, so yeah, we, we build that. And, and as Dan was saying, that the majority of teams within two weeks, on the line, that we've got a much better idea. We do get one or two teams that, you know, still have some attachment to their old idea. We say one option you've got is to significantly change that idea. But we, you can't just say, I'm changing the font, or I'm changing the color to red to blue or something. It has to be a significant change. But the majority of teams actually go for a totally different idea.

[00:11:11] And generally people that are upset, as I've said. But I think it was last year, we had one student that was just grinning and I say, are you all right? And he says, yeah, I love this. I love this. So, but I think that was, that was an exception rather than the rule.

[00:11:26] Dan: So Tony, we've done a, done a very good job in the sort of storytelling here of starting at that sort of crucial moment in the middle of the story. Why don't we rewind and could, could you tell us what, what's the, what's, what is the pro learning process from start to finish to help this, these, these folks to get across 

[00:11:45] Tony: So, so we have, um, I'll sit down in the summer with, um, somebody from industry. Um, could be a small local organization, it could be a national organization, it could be an international organization. We had the United Nations Environment program when year for example. But could be a bank, a supermarket, uh, a tech Startup, a charity. A council, the NHS, so, um, some sort of organization like that. And we'll create a one page, um, innovation challenge for the students, which is deliberately quite open. So it's not trying to funnel them into a solution area, it's saying these are the challenges the organization have got. 

[00:12:20] And then. At the beginning of, just before the module starts, I'll have a long spreadsheet of, um, students. Um, so I'll have information about them, which course they do, gender information, knowledge of which can, whether the UK or non-UK, um, students. And then I, I use that spreadsheet to create each team as diverse as I possibly can. Um, so a balance of genders, a balance of courses, um, UK non-UK students. They can't choose which team they're in, um, and they can't choose which challenge they get.

[00:12:52] And then, so on the first week, we introduced the module. Um, we introduced the challenge, and then the students, there's a, an icebreaking activity that they do over the week, which is creating a fun video, uh, introducing themselves, introducing the, and coming up with a team name as a part of a sort of a bonding exercise.

[00:13:09] A lot of our research is, and we've done some research on this module, shows that the quicker the teams get to know each other, the students get to know each other, the, the better they work. So I think there's definitely something for wider team building there. You know, it's, uh, these students, most of them haven't worked together, dunno, each other. Um, they're sitting there very quiet in the first. Sessions. So trying to get them there.

[00:13:30] So, and then they're, they're, they're doing the research on their prob problem area this year for the first time. We said, if you want to use a tool like chat, GPT or generative I, um, AI to help you, that, that's fine. Um, but do validate the results because not everything that comes back might be a hundred percent accurate. Um, but that's optional. If, if students want to use that.

[00:13:49] Then we do some design thinking techniques, particularly about getting to understand stake, who your stakeholders are and who your end users are, and having empathy for them. So empathy is a really key, uh, key message. Only then when they've spent some time researching the problem and thinking about the people, we start then using creativity techniques and idea generation, and a very nice, um, design thinking, uh, technique called the prioritization grid to quickly prioritize which idea to focus on a group of ideas, sometimes there's a number of ideas.

[00:14:21] Then the, the students, um, select their idea. They start developing it. So thinking about a prototype. Generally it's sort of paper prototyping at first. Um. Some of the stu some of the projects are, you know, digital solutions. Uh, some of them will be physical solutions. Some of them might even be an event or a process. So prototypes will be very different. And thinking about the commercial value, um, and saying that value can be very different. For the NHS the value might be, uh, patient outcomes or, or something like that, which obviously has a commercial aspect, a, a cost aspect to it. For a, for a bank it might be the number of customers and the profits those customers will bring in. 

[00:14:59] So, um, so can, although one thing I should say, we do anonymize the challenges. So even though, let's say we agree with a, a certain bank that we create a, a fictional bank name and the sponsor has a, um, I must have a bad joke name that I create, like the bank one this year is D Posit is the, the sponsor. And I think the healthcare one is Doctor M T So, but, but yeah, they, so, so they got their idea, they've got, they've thought about the pro, how they're gonna demonstrate with a prototype and, and the commercial value. Then they do a first quick pitch, um, and then they get the bad news of, um, you know, actually you need to change your idea now.

[00:15:37] And in the second half, there's a little repeat, so there's some second iteration of for the second idea, although we do introduce some new techniques as well. Um, so some of the things we do, things like design thinking hills, but also storyboarding very much encouraging, not talking about your, um, prototype as it does function A, B, and C, but telling people's stories about how it changes people's lives, how it makes, try to make us laugh or cry or, you know, care, care about things as well as the sort of wider commercial value.

[00:16:07] And then in the final week, which is actually, we are in, um, December, 2023 at the moment, at the end of this week, the students in our diff we have multiple classes, they'll be having their pitching sessions. So we have some senior people from industry and across the university, and they've got seven minutes to pitch. So it's all about what's, what's the real key messages you wanna get in that very short space of time, um, to try and convince a Dragons' Den style panel that your idea has value and would be worth, um, investing and progressing.

[00:16:39] And they get voted on their, um, their, their, their quality of their pitches. And we have some very nice prizes. But actually they don't get any marks for this currently for their, for their teamwork. Um, afterwards they all write, each student writes an individual reflective essay about what they've learned, um, what they would do differently in future based upon that learning and how they can apply it maybe in their job applications, but also in their future careers.

[00:17:04] And, um, a lot of research shows that reflecting on learning really helps you deepen it. But, uh, one of the key messages we say, you can think your project was a failure. You can get just as good mark, or even a better mark than somebody that thinks that their project was a success if you can really describe what you've learned and what you would do differently based upon that learning.

[00:17:25] Pia: So I mean, that's quite a journey that you've just outlined there. Do some teams fall, fall out? 

[00:17:31] Tony: Oh, oh, yeah, yes. And actually that's one of the things we tell them is you're now working in a team, it's likely at some stage you're gonna fall out. You're gonna have problems. Um, and that's great learning. And I've said, I don't think I can remember any team I worked in and I worked in industry for 30 years where there wasn't some issue down the way. And we give them some resources that they can ally use to, you know, assess their team, to think about how they can overcome problems, but generally we say, use those resources. But we would like you to address your problems without coming to us first. if you have a real issue, then obviously we will intervene and help you, but I think in the seven years we've been running these type of modules, we've only had one or two times where people have come and asked for help. Um, and, and we stress that, you know, if you've got this problem, this is great learning. It's also great, um, content for your, for what you are gonna be assessed on your assignments, so you can get marks showing up, you know, we had this issue.

[00:18:29] And the other thing we say, going back to Dan's point on storytelling is these are fantastic stories to tell at job interviews. So our students for one of the modules, for example, are final year undergraduates. So, we're running it typically in semester one at the moment. So before December they'll be going to lots of interviews, you know, through January, February, March, April. Fantastic stories to tell about pitching their ideas, about how they've developed their ideas, have they've managed this change, but also the team dynamics, you know, what happened? Um, you know, we had these clashing personalities in the team. Somebody wasn't turning up, wasn't engaging well, what did you do to help them engage?

[00:19:09] And, and as I said, we've actually done some research, uh, of, um, last year on the way the teams work and, um, some of the, some of the help we can give other academics in terms of from the learning and ourselves actually, but 'cause we're continually learning and developing how we can help the students, but from having some of these issues, how they can learn from them.

[00:19:30] Dan: And touring the tables as I did in this amazing classroom, well, you could call it a classroom, I thought it was just an am, just a fantastic space with, to see 10 teams in when we, in our world, to see 10 teams in action all at the same time was wonderful. But touring it was, it was obviously interesting. You sit, pull up a chair, ask a question, say hi, and you are immediately engaged by the extroverts in the team. And then you find, you realize that there are others who are like in a nor, like in any team, there are people sort of sitting back, but there are those who are more ready to jump in and answer the question of this strange person who's now sitting there.

[00:20:05] How does that play out and what, what can you do with these teams, um, teams in general to bring in these more, uh, quieter people?

[00:20:14] Tony: That, that, that's a brilliant question. And that is one of the areas actually, when we did our research that we, we hadn't intended to, but we ended honing down into. So, I think you're exactly right. Any group, if you just have a group discussion, let's say seven people, two or three people will dominate it. One or two will chip in now, and then. One, two, or three will, depending on the, the team, um, will, um, maybe be engaged but not participate. 

[00:20:39] Uh, and one of the things it would be great to do, um, but practically I think it would be a challenge if I could understand the personality types beforehand of the students, then that would be part of the sort of allocation of the teams. But we don't have that information.

[00:20:53] Um, so one of the things we specifically do to make sure everybody's voices are heard, we use, um, a technique of diverging and converging in many of the activities. So we'll explain a technique and then we'll say We want you to diverge. Now everybody, you must do this in silence and everybody must provide input. And we're using, um, a digital collaboration tool called Mural, but equally it could be flip charts and post-it notes, which we use pre covid, but now we're using, even though we're back in the classroom, we're using this digital tool. And we stick privacy mode on so they can't see what anybody else is writing.

[00:21:25] And um, so we say, let's say we want you to, um, the simplest one is generating ideas, but you can do it for lots of other things. So we want you to generate ideas. You've done your research, you've thought about the people. What ideas do you think your team could do to address the challenge? And by diverging and making sure everybody is taking part, everybody's, uh, getting involved. And some of our researchers is particularly useful for inclusion for people with different personality types. So as you said, Dan, the conversation you're gonna have, the more extroverted, the more confident people, people may be from certain backgrounds who are gonna dominate the conversation.

[00:22:03] And another factor for us, um, students where English is not their first language and maybe, you know, they're okay in English, but they're not as confident as talking in a quick conversation which students have. So this diverge makes sure every student's input is captured.

[00:22:20] And then once we've had that, we have the converge step. So with the tool, we, we, we put the privacy mode off so everybody can see what everyone else has written. And we ask them to review their inputs as a team, um, review each input, uh, and particularly we ask for empathy and active listening. So get each person to describe their input and listen to what they're saying. Don't jump in. Help 'em, you know, describe it. Um, so that sort of active listening thing is really important. But have empathy, you know, so if you've got quieter members of the team, how are you gonna bring them into the conversation as well?

[00:22:55] And, um, we found that that has a much greater diversity of inputs by having this divergent higher quality of outputs. And I've, I think I've got a quote in front of me here that, um. know, it's beneficial to work in teams with different disciplines. I saw the benefit of being part of a diverse team, but we've got lots of quotes about this divergence and convergence as well. The diverging gave the introverted, um, students a voice in our team. Um, some of the non-native English speakers saying that they felt that they, they could much more confidently input into that. And then because their idea was written down, when it came to review them, their idea was being reviewed.

[00:23:35] And we had a number of students, um, we, you know, we picked up from their reports and journals saying that they would never have raised an idea, they didn't think they were a creative person, and they were amazed that the team was adopted, their idea or a part of their idea, and they feel so much more confident on the back of that, and in future they will do X and Y. So, so this diverging and converging, which is used. A lot in design thinking techniques you can apply to so many other things.

[00:24:01] And, and what we found also, which, which I loved when we did the research, that student, there were some wider benefits for students as well that, um, they were using it both in this module but beyond the module for other things. So they'd found out how useful it was and they were applying. So, you know, when they're creating a presentation, we hadn't asked them to diverge and converge, but they were now saying, okay, we'll diverge, everybody has their thinking. We'll come back together and we'll, we'll put it together. And a number of the students were saying in their reports that, um, the experience of this, they really would like to take this into what they do in industry, 'cause they can see how this has given everybody a voice. And if they were ever leading teams, they would be bringing this in because it would make, it would maximize both the team working, but also that quality of the outputs that they get out.

[00:24:45] And there was a lot of comments about, tey've got something from that session, much higher quality than they thought they would've got from having that discussion where maybe a couple of people dominated.

[00:24:57] And the other thing I think it does for our taking away the sort of personality and the, the language things for our brains, if you have a discussion, so you're discussing ideas and somebody, oh, I've got this idea about, you know, the best way to clean windows, other people are not gonna be thinking about different ways of cleaning windows, they're gonna be thinking about what that person just said. So it's shutting down, um, the wider inputs, the diversity of input. 

[00:25:24] Um, so everybody having a chance to think and put their input individually, um, you're gonna get a much wider range of ideas. And, and as I think it was, um, Edison said that, you know, to have a great idea, have a lot of them. So, um, you know, if, if you've got five ideas, you might have one good one. If you, if you've got 25 ideas, maybe you'll have a great one and three or four good ones. So trying to get those diversity is really, is really key.

[00:25:49] And the thing I love that the students do is. They've all come up with their individual ideas, and often it's a sort of hybrid idea that they progress. So it, it's taken parts of what multiple students have come up with, and then they meash these together to create something that's bigger than that that's better than the parts, if you like.

[00:26:07] Pia: I mean, that's something you, I think Dan and I see quite a bit, which is how to get that effect to that collective wisdom. And how do you, how does that create an outcome that is more than the sum of the parts? Um, you know, we work a lot with teams who are maybe less teams and are more groups of individuals. That act of teamwork is what you are, what you're talking about. 

[00:26:30] Do you get students giving you insight to how they've applied this back in the real world? So these skills preferable?

[00:26:39] Tony: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, one of the benefits I think is that students, so they, I've mentioned the example of creating a presentation, but students will tell us, oh yeah, for my other module where we're doing some team-based activity, um, we were really struggling and I've. I've introduced diverging and converging, it's really helping us. Or, or, um, or just saying that they want to apply it when they, you know, in the job market.

[00:27:01] And for this, but also lots of other things 'cause we encourage that storytelling in interviews we get a lot of feedback about how that, they've introduced some of these techniques in their interviews and talked about how they've applied them, maybe in this context of diver converge to overcome issues in the team and how that's, you know, really impressed potential employers as well, so.

[00:27:23] Dan: So Tony, uh, thank you. I mean, it's, it is really, it's genuinely an inspiring story and I have to say after my own pitiful university, um, experience in terms of learning and, uh, teaching and, and bone learning. But this is, this is just so refreshing to hear and having seen, seen you and the students in action, I I can just reassure all the listeners that what you're saying is, is genuine and, um, and really has a huge impact.

[00:27:49] So, of all this experience you've had, you see, you sort of, you'd lead all these teams, you see so many students. What's a, what, what problems do they, what's a big problem that they sort of encounter along the way and what would you, um, what solutions have you have, could you share with our listener that would be a really great thing they could take away.

[00:28:07] Tony: Yeah, one of the things I think, um, that I'd like to discuss is something we've touched upon already. It's around team dynamics that, um, all, all the teams are different, and some of the teams will struggle. So we see some teams that it's just a joy. We hear them laughing a lot at the table. You can see they're all enjoying it. I love it when I hear laughter from the students. I actually tell them, don't, WI, I'm, I'm fine. The best projects I ever worked on at IBM and elsewhere were the ones that really enjoyed and had a, had a lot of fun. Equally, sometimes those projects have big issues at certain stage technical issues or something. And 'cause we all had fun and we worked well together, it helped us solve them.

[00:28:44] But not all the teams naturally will work like that. Some of them will have, um, challenges and difficulties. So one of the things that we do, uh, we give some resources to the teams to, you know, sell some self-help tools and techniques. But I think the main, the main challenge I give them is to, is to make it upfront. No, upfront. You know, from the very beginning, you're working in a team. You are very likely to have problems. And so not set the expectation if they've got a problem, they're the only team that's ever had a problem and it's them. Um, team working isn't easy. It's difficult. When you have a problem. What we want you to do is have empathy for each other. 

[00:29:29] So if somebody's not coming to the class for two weeks, for example, and our attendance rate is fantastic, so it's not a big problem for us, but if somebody's not coming, we want you to engage them, not by starting by telling them off, but asking, you know, why aren't you here? Is there an issue? And, and we had a fantastic bit of feedback from, uh, students one year that one student wasn't coming, um, for a couple weeks. And, and they, they did this, they asked them with empathy, is everything okay? And it wasn't okay. There was a problem the student had with the, their, their, their lost a family member and, um, the team closed around that student and helped them and brought them back on board. And that, um, you know, the student really did well from that. And the, and the team did. And it really helped that student and that, I love that empathy.

[00:30:15] So, so one thing is, you know, encouraging the students if you have got an issue, have empathy for each other. So why is this person acting the way they're doing it? And, um, if you're having a bit of a falling out, can you take a step back and say Okay, let's, let's, let's discuss this. You know, we, we have, we're not working in an optimum way at the moment. How can we improve it? So trying to have empathy for each other. Listen to each other. Active listening, I mentioned before, but active, listen, encouraging, active listening. So the students are talking to each other, they're listening to the answers, rather than jumping in.

[00:30:48] And then that was a great, the story I've just told is, is, is a true story, it was a great example. We had students this semester who, um, had problems and couldn't leave their home country at the start of the module. And, and I said, well, this is very interactive modules, in the classroom. You might want to consider taking a different module. You know, not to, not to that I didn't want the student, it's just I thought they would benefit something that maybe was more sort of traditional broadcast learning rather than very experiential learning. Like we did in the module.

[00:31:17] The students said, well, I'm, I really want to do it and I'll be coming in in a week or two. Can I stay? Can I stay? I will work with my team, and so on. And so that student engaged the team. And lo and behold, in the next lesson, the student wasn't there, but they were there because somebody had brought, they had a laptop and they got them on Teams or Zoom or something. That student was sitting at their table virtually and getting involved in techniques. And because we're using this online tool, they were, they could take part in the activities. Uh, and the week later, the student was in class, uh, and I thank the team for helping the student so much. The student was just thrilled that I'm so pleased with their team, and the team loved it. The fact that they helped somebody else.

[00:31:59] So there, there are these issues. It's about trying to encourage the team to help each other, I'd say is the, the, the key thing that we do, but also recognize that team dynamics, you, you have issues. It's how you deal and what you learn from those issues that's most important.

[00:32:12] Pia: Yeah, huge, 

[00:32:14] Dan: huge. Absolutely. Yeah, massive. And, uh, boy, I think it's, it takes, it takes people many, many decades to learn that if, if they, if they do at all. But I, you, you, you said earlier when you, you mentioned actually earlier sort of, if someone's not attending, you said, then how can you help them to attend? And I think that just is a complete mind shift versus what we're used to, which is either. Get them to attend or just block them, forget about them and move forward or whatever. It's that empathy as a foundation for teamwork is wonderful.

[00:32:44] Tony: And one thing I should add, you know, we will get the odd student inevitably, who's not as engaged as other students, but by having the students asking them that way, why aren't you here? Are you okay? Then actually even those sort of students suddenly are in the classroom because it's peer pressure on them. Uh, and so they're getting more engaged as well, even if they haven't had problem maybe they've just, you know, uh, not been as much engaged as they should have.

[00:33:10] Dan: And even there, knowing that the team would like them there and expects them there or would like them, that, that's a, that's a big step, isn't it? 'cause it's very easy to think, oh, it doesn't matter. 

[00:33:18] Tony: And the team and knowing that the team know that they're not engaging. 

[00:33:22] Dan: Yeah. Right, exactly. Wonderful. It's a fantastic place to end, Tony, and really just a, a, a practical thing that any team could take away. So thank you so much for being with us today, and I personally look forward to seeing you and the students on Friday for their, for their readout. I'm very much looking forward to it, which is the very day on which this podcast will be released, which is perfect.

[00:33:44] Tony: Brilliant. That's great. So thank you so much, Dan and uh, Pia. It's been a, it's been a real pleasure, so thank you very much. 

[00:33:52] Pia: We mentioned right at the start of the show that this was a conversation about innovation and sometimes you get very attached to an idea and you hang onto it and grip it with all your might, even if it's not particularly working that great. Um, and I think this is a really interesting one because they deliberately challenge the status quo. There's a degree of comfort within the team. They think they're getting a solution. The whole situation changes. Do we have that resilience, that flexibility, that adaptability to let it go, really? Have a frozen moment, and then iterate our thinking and start again from, The beginning.

[00:34:30] And I just think, yeah, that I, I mean I have that experience a lot, uh, very practically. I've been putting a lot of furniture together. And you get the instructions and you start out with this sort of great, bold enthusiasm and optimism. And then by the end of it, I'm always thinking that they've sent us a wrong part rather than it

[00:34:49] Dan: I know that's Oh, love it. Love it. Yeah.

[00:34:50] Pia: always, always their fault. And, um, and you're at the point of actually sort of getting out the, you know, the claw hammer and splashing it to smitherines. But then actually you walk away, you put it down, or sometimes I've done this overnight and I've just gone, I just have to leave this and I come back, and within 10 minutes, I can see what I was clearly doing wrong. And I think there's a real lesson to be learned in that, that we, we get fixated it's object fixation.

[00:35:18] We've seen that in a, in, in a tragic circumstances in a hospital when you're, somebody was in, in dire need of a different way of saving this life and it didn't happen. So we do. This is what happens to us. We just keep going down the route that we've got. And I think that's, that. This is a real, this is a real lesson for us in innovation. Actually. Let go, let go. Just take a deep breath and, and actually rethink it. 'Cause you might think about a completely different and a much better idea.

[00:35:47] Dan: That phrase let go to get a better grip, which sort of sums it up, doesn't it? I think, um, I think that, yeah, it's right and great connection back to the, um, Martin Bromley episode. if anyone wants to look at that because an inter in the team context, sometimes hearing those quieter voices on the periphery might really help, if you keep, and that actually happened in that case, in the, in that awful tragedy. Um, but listening to voices that might say, oh, maybe we should be doing this another way instead of getting really fixated. And, um, yeah. I, I think it's, it's such a great one. I think anyone can do that if you're really stuck on something. Just force yourself to try something else as he did.

[00:36:26] And it was fascinating to see these te as these teams, as I said, they'd obviously gone through a bit of a grief curve about their old solution. And of course, biases come into this, you know, confirmation bias. I, I believe you know, I'm making progress here and therefore it's right. But also this sunk cost bias. We've been working on this for months, not, not in the case of flat back furniture, I hope, but, um, you know, so we've got to keep going on it. And all of those things need to be broken at some point.

[00:36:51] I aLso really liked, this is great for any team, I think in, in our work as well, with the way he says to the team upfront, you're gonna have problems. And it's, it's such a simple mindset. So working in a team is hard. You're gonna have challenges and you're gonna be able to, you're gonna have to deal with those along the way to go in. Whereas we tend to have a sort of rather optimistic mindset 

[00:37:15] Pia: Blind 

[00:37:16] Dan: blissful it's gonna be.

[00:37:18] Pia: Yeah, that it's going to be wonderful and it's gonna work out and, and isn't it gonna be great? And then, um, and then we hit a few hurdles and then it, and then it's terrible. I, I think that actually, what I liked about what the process that Tony was taking about you actually, you, you are aware of the emotional part of it, but you're, but you're not sunk in it. And then it becomes positional or it becomes personal. Whereas in actual fact, you're really trying to get, to bring that, that collective intelligence together. So you, you really do just have to let go, take a break, come back. 

[00:37:50] Dan: Wonderful, wonderful stuff. So I think that would be a great episode for anyone who's maybe stark or they want to innovate, finding a new way. I think there's some, some really practical tips in there. Um, wonderful to hear from Tony, and I'm looking forward to being there on Friday to hear the outcomes of these, uh, these projects by these incredibly sm It was, and by the way, wow, so refreshing to spend time with young people and see how bright and fast and just wonderful they are. And diverse as well, that you could see in these teams. There's all kinds of characters and so E each team had a, had a real array of people and it was just, you end up very optimistic for the future when you spend time with the people who are going to make it.

[00:38:36] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes right where you are listening, and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:38:57] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.