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We see that there's a large disconnect between what users want and what the big tech companies

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want to provide. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Techlore Talks. Today, I have Artyom from

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Zorin OS, who's going to be talking about their Linux distribution and all of the privacy and

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security implications, what it looks like to switch to Linux from something like Windows

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or macOS, and kind of their approach and the users they're targeting to try to get Linux in

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as many hands as possible. And now let's get into the conversation. Okay, today I have Artyom from

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Zorin. You guys might actually know them as the Linux distro. I know they're quite popular in

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our audience. So do you mind introducing yourself and what you work on? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm

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Artyom Zorin. I'm co-founder and lead developer of Zorin OS. So the main goal behind Zorin OS is to

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provide a really simple and user-friendly alternative to Windows and Mac using Linux as

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the backend. I guess the best way to give a bit of a background on Zorin OS is just to go back to

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the very beginning of our story, which was back in 2008, my brother and I, we first tried out

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Ubuntu Linux on a computer and we were really enamored by, you know, all of its advantages,

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all of its features, the fact that it was so much faster than Windows, that it was more secure,

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privacy respecting, customizable, powerful in general. And we kind of thought to ourselves,

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why isn't everyone using a system like this if it's so much better than Windows and Mac

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in our experience? But the first hurdle we encountered was when we showed our dad

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a copy of Ubuntu and he immediately made it clear why that wasn't the case,

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simply just because Linux was not user friendly enough.

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So even something as simple as muscle memory, like the start menu

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and the taskbar not being in the right place was already in big enough hurdle

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for, you know, the general public normal computer users

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from switching over to Linux. So we kind of thought to ourselves,

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what if we could bridge this gap and make a system that's

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has the power of Linux and the advantages that it has,

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but also making it really simple and familiar.

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So the first version of Zorin OS we released back in 2009

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and it had a very Windows like desktop experience

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so that you didn't have to learn anything new just to start using your computer

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with a more powerful system.

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And so, you know, 16, 17 years on,

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we've been continuously upgrading, improving Zorin OS and making it

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as user-friendly as possible while still retaining all of the power and advantages of Linux.

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Got it. And so you were all based on Ubuntu, correct?

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Yeah.

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And so what are kind of the key differences?

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You know, if somebody is currently on Windows or macOS, they're checking out Linux.

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And Ubuntu is my first distro as well.

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And so I'm very familiar with kind of the pathway and that initial experience that it

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sounds like you guys had where it's like, why would I not use anything other than this?

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when I first started using it.

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But what kind of separates you from Ubuntu?

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Like what can kind of a regular user

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expect the differences to be there?

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Yeah, in the case of Zorin OS,

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we focus entirely on making that switch over

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from Windows or macOS as simple as possible.

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And we make the user interface

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just way more familiar than an Ubuntu system.

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Not just from a desktop layout standpoint,

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because it resembles like a Windows environment,

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but also like even just tiny little tweaks

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throughout the system.

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We also have a feature called Zorin Appearance

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where you could change the entire desktop layout

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to match whatever operating system you're more familiar with.

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So if you're more familiar with macOS, for example,

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you could click one button

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and the entire desktop rearranges to look like macOS.

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So you don't have to learn anything new to get started.

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Or if you want to customize your system more, it gives more easy options for that.

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Got it.

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And so since you're based on Ubuntu, I assume that in terms of the package manager, it's

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going to be APT.

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And then you're also going to have Debian packages.

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And then I think I read on your website that you out of the box also support Snap and Flatpaks.

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So you support all kind of the critical ones there.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So our philosophy behind that decision is just to try to support as many package sources as possible so that users will have the widest array of apps available to them out of the box from the software store.

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That's one of those features that isn't quite common in other Linux distributions.

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Generally, they tend to go down the route of maybe one or two package formats.

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In our case, we try to support as many as possible just to make sure that, you know, if you're a Windows user or a macOS user coming over to Zorin OS and you want to get the apps that you are familiar with, the apps that you like to use every day, you know, there's a higher likelihood of just being able to search it up in the software store, click install and just you're away to go.

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So that was the decision behind supporting all these package formats.

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What do you all default to? So, you know, I stumbled on this recently because I installed Asahi on a MacBook Pro that I have access to. And in the package manager, you know, let's say Firefox, you search up Firefox and the GUI, and then it's going to come down with, you know, you can install the Flatpak version, you can install the other variations. So what do you guys default to if a user isn't really familiar with different package managers? What is the default when you have all the options available for a piece of software?

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Generally, it defaults to whichever package source has the newest version of that app.

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Because say, for example, like the apt package repositories that are available in Ubuntu,

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they're quite well tested to work on the base system, but it may not always update to the

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latest version of that app. So if there's a newer version available in Flatpak, then by default,

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it might show up the Flatpak version. And when you click install, it'll install from that source.

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That's just to try to, you know, improve the user experience so that over time the app gets better and you don't really have to think about it.

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So if a user installs it and let's say it defaults to Flatpak because the Flatpak is the latest, will it only receive Flatpak updates from there on out or will it always continually just update?

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I assume it's not going to be changing the source.

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No, no, no. It'll continue to update from the Flatpak source or the Snap or the app source.

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Got it. Okay, yeah, that'd be kind of crazy engineering if you found a way to easily switch those around on each update. And I guess it's always a good clarifying question. You guys are also, I mean, it's kind of extends also to your, to maybe your business model as well. You guys are open source, but you're not necessarily free. Is this an accurate way of putting it?

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So we have the free edition of Zorin OS, like the core edition, which we've always had and we always will provide the free edition.

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And that's comparable to, you know, the apps and feature set that are included in other Linux distributions that only offer a free version.

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But we also have the Zorin OS Pro Edition as an offering, predominantly to support the continuous development of Zorin OS and to make sure that our aims are aligned with the users so that we are funded by our community directly.

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And we don't have any other sort of ulterior motives like you might find in the app stores on your phone where apps might be ad supported or data and telemetry get gathered and sold to advertisers.

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We don't want to go down that route.

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And the most sustainable form of keeping the Soreness project alive is just directly funding it from the users.

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But in return, also, the Pro Edition offers a bunch of additional features, like a whole suite of curated apps for creative professionals and power users, productivity apps, creative apps.

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Also, additional features such as more desktop layouts that you could switch between in Zorin appearance so that it's a lot easier for people to make the migration over.

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But also we provide technical support as a service to people who have purchased the Pro Edition.

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Because our goal has always been to make the Linux-based system that's the most easy to switch over to.

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And sometimes new users might encounter certain hurdles.

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Maybe it's an app that they aren't able to get up and running easily.

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Or maybe a hardware feature that isn't automatically enabled on their computer.

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And that technical support service basically allows these customers to email us directly saying, you know, I might have a problem with this.

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Can you help me with it? And we will sort these details out and provide a solution directly over email.

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So it's just about making that transition from Windows and macOS to Linux a lot more seamless.

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Just having that extra person by your side makes a big difference from what we hear.

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So you don't have to rely purely on your own researchers hunting through different forums to fix any potential solutions that you might have when making the switch.

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Yeah, and I assume, you know, maybe someone might be wondering, well, the Pro version is not open source then.

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So how does that work?

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So the software that's included in the Pro edition is open source.

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So you can download the source code of all of the apps and packages, even from within the system.

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It's more of a factor of making it convenient to have all of the apps you would need out of the box,

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but also to have the support service by your side when you need it,

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which goes well beyond the factors of the source code and the software.

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So it's all about providing more convenience while also allowing people to contribute back to the project

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and get something in return as well.

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Yeah, I think it's something much needed because I do think there's a disconnect.

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A lot of people who are drawn to Linux, and I think this might be the stories that we both described.

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You know, we tried out Ubuntu for the first time and it's like, wow, this is great.

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You kind of just get it right away.

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But that's not necessarily what a non-technical person is going to experience the first time.

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They are going to be confused on which disk to install the operating system on.

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They're going to be confused on some pretty basic things that to a technical person.

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I'm not even that technical, like I'm not an engineer.

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I just have maybe a little bit more technical capabilities than a regular person on the street.

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That's a real thing, though.

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People don't want to be hunting down forums all day.

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And right now, the best customer support in the Linux community is just whatever the top three largest Linux distros are that have the largest communities that have really good documentation and good forums.

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So I think of like the Ubuntu forum, Fedora has a lot of good resources, and Arch, of course, has their wiki,

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which everyone loves. But that's kind of it. It's not really customer support, though. And it's not

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what a user really typically expects. And so it's cool that you guys offer that, because I think

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there's a lot of people in my life who would actually have to utilize that support. So just,

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I guess just sending praise there for that. I did want to get more of your thoughts on the,

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you know, lack of ulterior motives, because I feel like maybe the community can be a bit picky at

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times, because we like the support and we like things that Ubuntu is doing, but we don't like

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canonical. And same thing goes with Red Hat, etc. So how does your business model change kind of

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where your incentives lie compared to maybe some of the other organizations that are behind other

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Linux distros? And how do you see the motivations as different? Yeah, no, absolutely. So if you want

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to understand how a company or a team prioritizes the decisions, there's a phrase I always like to

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use came from, I believe, Charlie Munger, which is show me the incentives and I'll show you the

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outcome. And if you look at how those other companies are funded and where they get their

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revenue from, oftentimes it's not from desktop users. It's actually from maybe server or IoT

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solutions where they work with businesses and organizations using products that are slightly

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different from what you might use on the desktop at home. And so they derive a lot of the revenue

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from maybe support contracts for those specific use cases and not necessarily treating the desktop

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as a main driver of revenue that requires giving a lot of attention so that their business survives

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and thrives. So even though, you know, there might be some commotion online about, you know,

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why did they make this decision when the other decision that they could have made would have

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better for the desktop, you can kind of understand it from that lens where they have their priorities

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set on these other customers and these other use cases, which doesn't really align with what you're

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doing on the desktop as a user. In our case, we wanted to make sure that we're providing a desktop

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experience that's second to none, that's really simple and user friendly, but also actually listening

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to our users and their feedback to figure out how to make the desktop even better. And we're entirely

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focused on the desktop. That's our only, you know, product line, you could say. And so, you know,

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if we ever think about making a decision on, you know, how to develop Soren West, maybe take it in

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one direction versus another, we always have to think about like, what do our users want out of

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an operating system. And we always have to make sure that their interests and their needs are

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our North Star. It's always been our goal to try to make a system that's as simple and user-friendly

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for desktop users. And if you have them by your side, then they will always tell you which way is

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best. So that's really the difference between ourselves and the other larger Linux-based

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companies that generate revenue, simply that we are focused on the line on the desktop.

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Got it. And then I definitely want to dive a little bit more into the technical side of things.

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But the last question I have, who is overall your target demographic? Is it new people to Linux? Is

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it people who just want Linux to work? What do you generally describe as the main avatar?

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Yeah, I mean, from the very first day of us starting the Zorin OS project, we've always focused on making a system that's as simple as possible to use for new users.

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So people who are using Windows or macOS right now, sort of the general public.

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But we have noticed that even veterans of Linux really like Zorin OS because they can just set it and forget it.

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And it's like super simple.

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They don't have to fiddle around with lots of settings.

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You know, in some regards, they say that we have the most sane defaults

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and that they could just use their desktop computer as much as they want

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without having to worry about, you know, tinkering.

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It's just ready to go from day one.

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So we have quite a large and varied user base.

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But because our number one goal is to get new users,

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it is new users coming from predominantly Windows, but also macOS.

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Got it. Very nice. And so diving more into, I guess we can start with just privacy and security.

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So what's kind of your approach to privacy by default? So many Linux distros,

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I'd say a good amount of them don't really include very much, if any, telemetry at all.

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So how do you guys handle that compared to other Linux distros? But more importantly, how

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is what you do compared to maybe something like Windows?

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Yeah. So because our goal has always been to provide a better desktop experience,

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A troubling trend that we've seen on proprietary systems like Windows, macOS, the big incumbents

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is the additional focus on gathering sensitive data from users.

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We can understand that it contributes to their bottom line, that they gain revenue either

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through advertising or draining their AIs.

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So we understand why they're doing it, but we know that it doesn't sit right with us.

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It's not the kind of system that we would want to use if it sends back data to someone else.

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So privacy has always been a really important factor for us and how we develop the system.

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So we don't gather any private data, sensitive data from Zorin OS at all.

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From the perspective of telemetry, there's the option of basically counting the number of users,

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but that's about it.

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and you can always opt out of it and you can just disable it from immediately when you install Zorin OS.

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But we've always taken a very careful approach to making sure that it doesn't send any personal data whatsoever

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and that we never know what our users are doing, who they are.

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We know that if we want to provide a system that's better than Windows and macOS,

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that privacy is a really important aspect to quite a lot of people and increasingly so nowadays.

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So we always want to make sure that the decisions that we make always respect user privacy.

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Got it.

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And then what about kind of the overall security model?

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I know some Linux distros try to prioritize slightly better security, maybe at the cost

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of stability and other things.

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So how do you balance those kind of values with maybe just a standard Ubuntu base?

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Yeah.

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So because Zorin OS is based on Ubuntu and obviously the Linux kernel, the developments

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that those teams make to their repositories, to their software, from a security standpoint,

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make their way into Zorin OS as well. That's one of the advantages of building on top of

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an established system. So if there's any new vulnerabilities that get discovered in Linux

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or a package that's included in Ubuntu, for example, like a base system package,

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that it makes its way into Zorin OS pretty much immediately at the same time as it does in Ubuntu.

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And of course, the fact that Zorin OS is open source and along with Ubuntu and other Linux

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distributions makes it so that if anyone spots potential vulnerabilities, that they're immediately

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known to the developers and that patches can come in either from the development team or from other

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contributors around the world. That's the same model that allows, say, even the world's largest

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servers and supercomputers to stay more secure just because you're not relying on one single company,

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one group of people to patch these potential vulnerabilities. So all of those efforts make

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their way downstream into Zorin OS as well. So the security aspect of Zorin OS is also a massive factor

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why people make the switch from Windows and macOS and just being able to take advantage of all

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those security improvements in a Linux-based system, but also make it really simple to use,

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makes a big difference for our user base from who are generally new users.

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Got it. Okay. And then I have some other just overall technical questions here that I noted down.

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So why did you choose Ubuntu and not Debian? You know, you could have gone all the way to Debian,

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you could have gone Arch, Fedora, et cetera. So why did you pick that?

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Yeah, in large part, especially in the early days of Ubuntu, their focus has been on making, you know, Linux more user friendly and simple in the same way that we have.

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So a lot of the decisions that they've made are software that they've developed that is included in Ubuntu reflects that goal.

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All of the efforts that they've made make their way into Zorin OS.

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And because Ubuntu is based on Debian, the same can be said about all of the work behind the Debian team, that all of that work also makes its way into Zorin OS.

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But in large part, it's also because Ubuntu has just been, you know, one of the most popular, if not the most popular desktop operating systems based on Linux.

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So whenever an app developer creates a version of their software for Linux, generally they'll be targeting Ubuntu as a primary candidate so that, you know, people making the switch from Windows to Zorin OS, they'd also be able to take advantage of that improved app support.

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Same thing goes with technical support.

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If someone encounters an issue, say like hardware incompatibility on Ubuntu, that same fix would generally also work in Xornimus.

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So it's all about making it as, you know, simple to make that switch over.

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Ubuntu is a really good platform for that for us.

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Got it. And then what's your desktop environment?

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Do you do something custom?

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What's it based on?

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Is it completely your own thing?

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What's that look like?

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Yeah, so we use the GNOME desktop environment as a base, but we've made a lot of changes and we've made a lot of improvements to the usability through the use of extensions.

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So we developed a number of extensions to make the desktop layout a lot more familiar.

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So like the taskbar, the start menu, they're originally developed by ourselves.

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And what's cool about the open source ecosystem is that those improvements and those extensions that we've created have led a double life and actually have been adapted by other projects, have been maintained and contributed to by developers outside of us.

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And those improvements make their way back into Zorin OS as well.

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So because the GNOME desktop environment is so extensible and provides a lot of customization features through the extension ecosystem,

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we're actually able to make the desktop a lot more adaptable since switching the desktop layout through Zorin Appearance is one of the main features that makes Zorin OS Zorin OS.

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And GNOME makes it really easy and possible to support that.

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it's surprising because uh to me and i'm sure to many others the most customizable

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de of the most popular ones is most commonly cited as kde so what kind of attributes of gnome

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for you guys made it more customizable and easier to work with than kde yeah so kde is it's a really

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cool project and it's possible to customize it sort of out of the box stock with as many different

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toggles as they do that generally Gnome doesn't offer by default. But what makes Gnome really

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unique is their extension ecosystem in the fact that, you know, if you create an extension,

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you can essentially what's known as monkey patch the desktop, which means that you can literally

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replace a part of the user interface with your own because it is built in JavaScript and it's

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interpreted on runtime. So you can actually overwrite how certain parts of the desktop work.

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Obviously, by default, if you're used to GNOME, you may find it a bit difficult to switch over to if

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you're more familiar with a traditional desktop environment like in Windows or macOS, simply

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because the layout that's provided by default is very sparse and very different. But because

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the extension ecosystem lets you, you know, drill down into the nitty gritty details of how the

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desktop was implemented and you're able to override it, you can change it to look like pretty much

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anything if you're familiar with how JavaScript works and how the desktop environment is built.

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So it allows us to, you know, make changes like the start menu taskbar, doc, just through code

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at interpretation. Very nice. Okay, so let's say for whatever reason Zorin doesn't work for somebody,

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but they like the desktop environment. Can they use your desktop environment on any other Linux

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distro without any problems? Yeah, because GNOME extensions are transferable between Linux

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distributions, you can literally go out and install the extensions that we create and that we ship in

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Zorin OS on any other GNOME system, assuming they're on the same version of GNOME that Zorin OS is using.

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So yeah, you can extract the extensions and basically rebuild the Zorin desktop environment on other Linux distributions, if you wish, or take elements of it, if you wish.

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Very nice. And then what's your release schedule like? Are you guys long-term release?

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Would you say you're on the faster end of things, slower? What's your philosophy behind updates?

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Yeah, we're more so on the long-term release side of things.

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We don't have a very set release schedule.

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It's generally we release when the product is ready.

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But for major new versions of Zorin OS, it roughly happens every two years.

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And we have interim point releases every six months, give or take.

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So that improves the hardware support during the release cycle.

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But the main reason why we do long-term support releases for our major versions,

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more so than, you know, like a rolling release schedule,

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is about providing the most stable desktop experience as possible.

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So if we're thinking about, you know, who are our users who are generally, you know, more new users

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or people who just want the computer to just work, having a stable system, I think, is a bit more

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important than, you know, having all the most bleeding edge versions of all the different

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packages out of the box with the risk that you might encounter breakages, because most people

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just want the computer to just work. And that's what we sort of err on the side of.

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Got it. And then I guess that's a really good segue into my next section, which is a little

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bit more on the usability side of things, still on the technical usability side of things. So what

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are your, do you have any compatibility layers out of the box? So let's say there's a piece of

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software that they only ship on Windows. Do you guys implement wine, bottles, Proton, etc. out of

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the box for users? Yeah. So for example, if you like double click on a.exe installer file from

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Windows, one of the features that, you know, is included in Zorin OS, that's, I believe, an exclusive

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feature that you don't really find on other distributions is a dialogue that actually tells

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you like, what's the best way to go about installing this app. So we actually have a built-in database

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of Windows app installer files,

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where if you double click on the file,

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it matches that database and checks to see,

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oh, okay, you're installing,

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say you're trying to install the.exe for Google Chrome,

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for example, let's just say.

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It'll find that, hey,

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there's actually a better way to install it

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and specifically use the Linux native version of that app.

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So if there is a Linux native version of the app

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in the software store,

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it'll go out and direct you to that listing there.

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So it also teaches you the right way to install apps in Zorin OS as compared to in Windows,

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where you'd normally use a.exe file for everything.

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But at the same time, there might be apps that aren't compatible, that don't have Linux native

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versions.

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And that dialog also directs you to install Windows app support, which is basically a

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bundle of wine and bottles so that you can double click, install the app.

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And if it's supported in Wine, you're able to use it just like you would in Windows or even like a native Linux app.

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On top of that, like there are some apps that, you know, may not work in Wine or bottles perfectly.

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And so within that app installer database, we also can suggest alternatives that may work better that are Linux native.

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Like, say, for example, if you double click on the EXE for Microsoft Office, you know, that dialogue says, hey, you can use LibreOffice, which is pre-installed in Zorin OS, and that's compatible with Microsoft Office documents.

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Or you can also use the online version of Office if you want to use the official app.

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So it directs you to the best way to use the software that you need and guides you on how best to do it in Linux and Zorin OS.

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Very nice. And then what's kind of your state right now when it comes to ARM? I know it's a bit new still to the Linux world. There aren't that many ARM devices yet. Do you guys have a native ARM installer for Zorin? And also what does software compatibility look like right now? Do you do any kind of translations for 64-bit applications? I don't know if you do any of that kind of stuff.

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Yeah, at the moment, we're focused on traditional desktop and laptop computers with x86 processors.

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So we don't have an ARM installer at the moment.

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That's something that we're working towards, especially now as more ARM-based computers are coming onto the market.

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In the past, it's generally been directed more towards, you know, tinker boards like Raspberry Pis that are more focused for engineers rather than, you know, day-to-day computer users.

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But as that's changing, we're working towards making SORNOS installable on ARM computers.

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So we've been compiling our packages, you know, our repositories for ARM so that when we make that switch over and introduce a native ARM version that, you know, everything would work out of the box as much as possible.

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And what's really cool to see as well in the wider Linux ecosystem is a lot of efforts being made to allow the translation of x86 apps to ARM to happen basically on the fly and with as little performance loss as possible.

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I saw recently Valve made an announcement that they're funding and supporting the development of an ARM translation layer for one of their upcoming products.

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So that will make it a lot easier for you to run the apps that you need on ARM-based computers in Linux, which would eventually make its way into Zorin OS for sure.

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I would love to see that because I've been playing around with Asahi on the Mac and it runs beautifully.

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I've never run a smoother Linux machine thus far.

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I mean, everything just opens instantly.

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It feels rock solid.

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It's very stable.

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But man, the software availability right now on Linux is pretty poor for ARM-based devices.

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And combine that with the already existent limitations of DNF and Flatpaks and not having access to apt is pretty, it does feel very limiting.

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I mean, I can't get the official Signal app in any easy way, right?

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Because there's the unofficial Signal app Flatpak, but I'm not going to be running an unofficial version of Signal from the community.

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No offense to the community.

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I just want to get verified actual signal from the developers.

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It's a very sensitive piece of software that I want to make sure is trustworthy.

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And so I'm excited to see a translation layer where even if signal developers don't want to roll out ARM-based support for Fedora or whatever distro, people can still translate that.

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And I think it's very much needed in the Linux ecosystem right now for the few ARM users out there, I guess.

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I don't know how popular they are.

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It sounds like they're not that popular yet.

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Yeah, I mean, like it is a bit of a chicken and egg problem where if the hardware isn't out in the market and isn't widely used, then the app developers won't make their apps.

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But, you know, you might not buy the ARM-based hardware if the app developers aren't making the apps for it.

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So there is a bit of a dilemma, but we are seeing how third party app developers are compiling their apps for ARM more and more so than there was in the past.

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But also the introduction of such translation layers would make a massive difference.

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for sure. So exciting times ahead of us. Yeah, I'm excited for that. I think Linux sounds really good

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to someone who hasn't used it before. You know, on Windows, macOS, you can pretty much run any

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software you can think of, especially for professionals. And so what does that realistically

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look like? You know, if somebody uses Adobe for their day-to-day job or they're using DaVinci

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Resolve, Final Cut Pro, what are some realistic expectations they can have before moving

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over to something like Zorin, which, you know, presents itself as kind of like a really easy

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switch for most people. Yeah. So it's we're going through interesting times when it comes to software

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support, especially on the creative side of things. For example, Affinity recently announced that

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they're exploring the creation of a Linux version for their suite. And more and more apps are

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becoming available for Linux, like DaVinci Resolve, as you mentioned, Bitwig Studio, if you do

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music production apps and tools like these. Obviously, there's still a bit of a gap when it

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comes to some apps like the Adobe Suite. And while they do have online versions that work

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cross-platform, the entire feature set and experience does still leave a bit to be desired.

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But there are some interesting projects out there in the Linux world that aim to bridge that gap

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that we're helping to support,

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like say, for example, Windboat,

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where if you have a Windows app

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that only works in Windows,

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that doesn't support Wine,

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that can't run natively in Linux because of that,

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it gives a really simple and user-friendly way

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to create essentially a virtual machine,

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a containerized version of Windows

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that runs isolated within your Linux environment

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and then exposes the app as if it is a native app.

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So in other words, it goes and runs Windows in a VM on your system to power the backend,

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but then you're actually able to use like Adobe Photoshop as if it's a native app on Linux.

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So really exciting work happening there.

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And perhaps in the future, we might be able to implement it inside of Zorin OS just to make it even easier for Windows users to switch over to Linux and use all of their favorite apps.

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But I also have to say that the suite of native apps in Linux has been getting better and better every year.

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Like, say, for example, Kdenlive, Krita, the Gimp Image Editor, Inkscape as well.

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We use that very heavily when we're developing Zorin OS.

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So it is very much a professional grade suite of apps that's natively available for Linux.

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And if someone is interested in switching over to Linux and using these apps, one thing that we would recommend is also just installing those apps in your Windows or macOS environment, since they are cross-platform, seeing if they work for your workflow.

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And then once you get accustomed to using these apps, to switch over to a Linux-based system like Zona would be a lot easier because you've already developed that workflow in those Linux native apps that are also cross-platform.

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So there's lots of options and the options are getting better and better every year.

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Very nice.

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Yeah, I was quite excited when I saw the Affinity announcement.

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I wish it was a little more formal.

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Like, I wish it was like, hey, we plan to release it in the next X amount of months.

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Here's what we plan to do.

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But any announcement and any kind of, I don't know, hint that they're working on it is pretty

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exciting.

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So I have high hopes there because we use Affinity back here for our thumbnails, for our image

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editing, et cetera.

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Like, we're pretty heavy.

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We use DaVinci Resolve and Affinity.

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And if Affinity is taken care of, then theoretically, like all of our professional software that

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we use back here is theoretically Linux native, though DaVinci Resolve's Linux support is iffy a

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little bit sometimes. But it's exciting times. It's really cool to see like actual massive

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organizations treating Linux seriously. And I do want to touch on that because it seems like

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there's been a huge uptick in Linux usage that I know you guys have been seeing. So I want to get

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to that maybe later in the interview. But before then, before I get carried away, what are the

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default app choices that you guys make and why do you make those choices? So like what's your default

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browser, default mail client, what can people kind of expect out of the box when they choose to use

398
00:36:54,180 --> 00:37:00,180
Zorin? We curate what apps come pre-installed in Zorin OS very carefully and we're always

399
00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:07,320
reiterating you know what's the best one in to include in this new version. So say for a web

400
00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:14,100
browser we include Brave and we made that choice primarily to support as many different web apps

401
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,620
and web features as possible.

402
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,920
So it's a popular and well-known browser,

403
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,860
but also the focus on privacy has been a massive factor

404
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:24,900
when deciding to switch to Brave,

405
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,660
which is a choice that we made last year.

406
00:37:27,860 --> 00:37:29,680
So we're really happy with that.

407
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,400
And our user community has really applauded that switch.

408
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,020
For a mail client, we include Evolution,

409
00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:38,920
predominantly because it has great integration

410
00:37:39,140 --> 00:37:40,920
with the desktop environment, GNOME,

411
00:37:41,220 --> 00:37:48,180
and supports, you know, certain, you know, mail protocols like exchange that some users

412
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,720
in organizations might find absolutely critical.

413
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,200
So we want to support as many of the features and workflows that people have.

414
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:02,980
And Evolution Mail happens to do a really good job of doing that in a really simple and user-friendly

415
00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:03,280
way.

416
00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:07,640
Then a lot of the apps that we include as system utilities are the ones that are developed

417
00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:08,560
by the GNOME team.

418
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,820
They've done a really good job on making them really user friendly.

419
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,980
They've had a really strong focus on design of the user experience.

420
00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:29,640
So apps like the software store, the sound recorder, the text editor, they all are apps that you might take for granted, but they've put a lot of work into making sure it's, you know, as simple and user friendly as possible.

421
00:38:30,060 --> 00:38:46,120
In like the pre-core edition, we generally want to make the app selection as streamlined as possible from the feedback that we hear from our users so that users can have a system that's lean and ready to go out of the box.

422
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:53,860
But when it comes to like the pro edition, we do include a lot more apps for creative professionals and power users, as I mentioned before.

423
00:38:54,300 --> 00:38:59,500
Gimp Image Editor, Inkscape, Kdenlive, Ardor for audio production.

424
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:13,000
These are all basically a curated list of apps that are basically the best of the best when it comes to the open source app ecosystem on Linux for creative professionals and for production.

425
00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:18,940
Nice. And then kind of pivoting over to, I guess, different use cases for Zorin.

426
00:39:19,260 --> 00:39:32,340
I saw on your website, you guys have Zorin Grid, which seems to go against a little bit maybe of the initial philosophy, at least at first glance, it sounds like it kind of is different from the initial philosophy of just being for a regular home user.

427
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:37,380
So what is Zorin Grid and what are you targeting there and how does that fit inside of your broader vision?

428
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:52,920
Yeah, so over the years, we've heard a lot more feedback from organizations and businesses, but also regular home users who might be, you know, on the IT teams in those businesses or organizations at work.

429
00:39:53,660 --> 00:40:01,620
And they've been telling us how much they love using Zorin OS just personally at home or on like one or two computers.

430
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:14,420
But at the same time, if they wanted to deploy, you know, a Linux based system, not just Zorin OS, but predominantly Zorin OS across their organization, that it can be a bit of a challenge.

431
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:33,740
And because our goal from day one was to increase the usage of Linux in general on computers, we see that, you know, organizations and business users are a massive market and they are one of the bigger users of PCs and laptops.

432
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:39,680
So it makes perfect sense to also make Zorin OS really usable for them.

433
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,620
But the idea behind Zorin OSgrid actually came from a bit of a story a few years back.

434
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,000
which was back in 2016.

435
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,680
There was a city in Italy called Vicenza.

436
00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:51,540
It's a couple of kilometers west of Venice.

437
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,400
And they actually decided to switch their computers

438
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,240
from Windows to Zorin OS very informally.

439
00:40:58,980 --> 00:41:01,480
Around that time, Windows XP was losing support.

440
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,240
It's in the similar regard to, you know,

441
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,760
more recently as Windows 10 was losing support.

442
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,880
So they didn't want to throw away all of their old computers

443
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,520
and buy new ones just to continue running Windows.

444
00:41:12,860 --> 00:41:20,020
So they wanted to repurpose their existing computers and have a system that runs better than Windows for their staff.

445
00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:24,840
So they made that switch to XornOS with the help of the local Linux user group.

446
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:33,260
They were quite happy with the transition, but the main downside that they encountered was actually managing all the computers was a bit of a pain.

447
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:41,340
So if they wanted to install an app or change a setting across all of the computers, they'd have to bring someone around to each machine,

448
00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:44,520
which we thought there must be a better way of doing it.

449
00:41:44,540 --> 00:41:46,740
So that's why we decided to create Soarin' Grid.

450
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,200
Based on their feedback and from what we hear from our users,

451
00:41:51,140 --> 00:41:54,960
we see it as the missing piece in the puzzle that would let organizations

452
00:41:55,620 --> 00:41:59,820
and businesses and schools to make the switch to Linux en masse.

453
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,100
It's the one thing that's holding them back from switching away from Windows

454
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,480
or Chrome OS or macOS on their computers.

455
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,240
And because we want to spread the advantages of Linux,

456
00:42:12,660 --> 00:42:14,020
as far as we can.

457
00:42:14,740 --> 00:42:17,220
We see it as a really important tool to create.

458
00:42:17,370 --> 00:42:19,920
So that's why we've decided to create it as well.

459
00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:25,540
Are you guys used in any other interesting environments?

460
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,140
Like, are there any schools that you know of

461
00:42:28,220 --> 00:42:28,960
that use you guys?

462
00:42:28,990 --> 00:42:30,240
Who else uses you guys?

463
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:33,940
Yeah, no, we've heard countless stories

464
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:35,740
of like all sorts of different organizations.

465
00:42:36,260 --> 00:42:39,200
Schools especially is something that really excites us.

466
00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:40,359
And that's one of the main reasons

467
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:46,140
why we created the education edition of Zorin OS, which has preloaded educational apps for all

468
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:53,680
sorts of different classes. But a really cool organization in particular is Tech Bridges to

469
00:42:53,780 --> 00:43:00,440
Malawi, where they actually donate old computers that had windows on them to schools in Malawi,

470
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,239
where they didn't have access to computing or internet before. So they provide these refurbished

471
00:43:06,260 --> 00:43:12,900
computers. They install Zorin OS on them and they provide training to the schools in rural Malawi

472
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:19,280
so that, you know, thousands of kids can get a better education, which is something that we find

473
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,900
really exciting. We didn't imagine that Zorin OS would be used in this way, but we're really,

474
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,620
we're really happy and really proud that, you know, there are such great teams working on this problem.

475
00:43:30,580 --> 00:43:34,880
Yeah. And I guess that's my next question is actually going to be about this. So it's a good,

476
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:39,320
segue there. Devices. I feel like this is one of the huge hurdles for a lot of people. The

477
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,180
installation process. I feel like no matter how easy you make it to install a Linux distro,

478
00:43:45,180 --> 00:43:50,080
that's still too much of a hurdle. So first, what does your installation process look like?

479
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,840
And how does that compare to maybe just regular Ubuntu? And then if that's still too complicated

480
00:43:55,140 --> 00:44:00,640
for someone, are there options for people to buy a device that comes with Zorin out of the box?

481
00:44:00,860 --> 00:44:04,680
I do know I've had a vessel on from Nova Custom on this podcast,

482
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,240
and I do believe Nova Custom does ship you guys,

483
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:09,060
but are there any other alternatives there?

484
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:10,820
Yeah, absolutely.

485
00:44:11,660 --> 00:44:16,500
So, yeah, the Zorin OS installation sequence is quite similar to Ubuntu,

486
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,560
so we use the same Ubiquity installer,

487
00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:21,920
which the Ubuntu team have done a really great job

488
00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:24,340
of making it as simple and user-friendly as possible.

489
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,860
It's a very step-by-step graphical installation method.

490
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:37,800
One of the ways that Zorin OS differs from Ubuntu is actually the pre-installation and pre-loading of the NVIDIA graphics drivers.

491
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:47,380
So some computers, if they have an NVIDIA graphics card, they might experience some issues like in Ubuntu with booting up the installer.

492
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,200
So they can't even start the installer.

493
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,280
We offer the option of booting the Zorin OS. installation medium

494
00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:58,040
with those NVIDIA drivers pre-installed

495
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,060
so that you can go through the installation process

496
00:45:00,620 --> 00:45:03,420
and those graphics drivers are pre-installed by default.

497
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,960
Like historically, NVIDIA has been a bit of a challenge to work with on Linux,

498
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,700
but they have improved their drivers throughout the years,

499
00:45:13,740 --> 00:45:16,100
but also to make the experience even more seamless

500
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,200
and the feedback that we've heard from users,

501
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,260
That's one of the reasons why we went above and beyond what Ubuntu does and offered the

502
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:26,660
NVIDIA drivers as an option when booting the installation medium.

503
00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:31,580
The second part of your question, yeah, we have been working with a few computer manufacturers

504
00:45:31,730 --> 00:45:38,480
and brands like Nova Custom, also Star Labs, Laptop with Linux, to offer computers with

505
00:45:38,660 --> 00:45:39,760
Zorin OS pre-installed.

506
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,780
Obviously, that makes the process of switching to Zorin OS a bit easier because it's already

507
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:45,860
pre-installed for you.

508
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,780
You don't have to do the installation process yourself.

509
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:57,960
And we're seeing more and more people opting for, you know, buying a new computer with Linux pre-installed instead of Windows.

510
00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:03,400
And it's really cool to work with these manufacturers to have Zorin OS pre-installed.

511
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:11,720
You know, there's still quite a gradual ramp up to get more people to know about these manufacturers and switch to Linux by default.

512
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:15,060
It's definitely small steps, but really important ones to make.

513
00:46:15,220 --> 00:46:21,540
So, you know, if someone is more comfortable installing Zorin OS on their computer, maybe they're a little more technical.

514
00:46:22,180 --> 00:46:24,200
So the process isn't that technical or difficult.

515
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,560
They can install it on their own computer that they already have.

516
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:37,220
Or if they'd prefer, you know, a simpler user experience or they want to buy a new computer, the option also exists to install, to have Zorin OS pre-installed on these computers to buy.

517
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:38,400
Got it.

518
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:45,460
And, you know, with the pre-installed option, I don't know if this varies by manufacturer,

519
00:46:45,590 --> 00:46:48,740
but let's say I opt for Zorin through Nova Custom.

520
00:46:49,210 --> 00:46:51,880
Does that come with free or pro Zorin?

521
00:46:51,910 --> 00:46:54,480
Or is that a choice that you pick?

522
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,320
Yeah, that could be a choice that you pick.

523
00:46:57,740 --> 00:47:01,520
If you prefer, you know, a more lean app selection, you could go for the core edition.

524
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:06,140
If you'd prefer, you know, a larger app selection, more features out of the box,

525
00:47:06,660 --> 00:47:11,480
support service directly from us, you can also choose to have Soren West Pro pre-installed.

526
00:47:12,460 --> 00:47:18,220
And is that when I'm checking it out, when I'm purchasing the device, or is that after I buy

527
00:47:18,220 --> 00:47:24,920
the device and I get it and I open it, then I have a choice? So both. So you can have Soren West Pro

528
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:32,319
pre-installed on the computers at the checkout on Nova Customs website, for example. But also if you

529
00:47:32,340 --> 00:47:39,360
have Zorin OS core on your computer, you can also use the upgrade app within Zorin OS to upgrade to

530
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,820
the Pro Edition. If you feel like you want the additional apps or you want, you know, support

531
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:48,820
service, or you just want to contribute to the project, you also have that choice after the fact.

532
00:47:50,420 --> 00:47:58,299
Got it. And then I did want to ask what you think the realistic limitations are of Zorin. So if

533
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:03,000
someone's listening to this, they've been on Windows or macOS their whole life, and they're

534
00:48:03,090 --> 00:48:08,140
going, okay, this sounds cool. I want to try it out. What would you realistically come forward and say,

535
00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:12,780
okay, these are kind of a list of things that might actually prevent you from using Zorin.

536
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,800
And you might have to end up going back to Windows or macOS if you hit on, you know,

537
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:23,839
these specific snags along the way. Yeah, no, absolutely. There's the more, the most obvious

538
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,720
one of these potential setbacks is the apps that you use, what workflow you go through.

539
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,840
So of course, there are some apps that aren't natively compatible with Linux,

540
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:41,220
some of which you may be able to get using with wine or bottles, but that's something for you to

541
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:48,940
test. And you can test whether these apps work or your hardware works just from booting Zorin OS

542
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,060
up from a USB. So you don't actually have to install Zorin OS to test whether this works.

543
00:48:54,540 --> 00:48:59,200
But that's something to think about if you're making the switch. It might be worth making a

544
00:48:59,340 --> 00:49:05,180
list of the apps that you need to use. Maybe some of them have cross-platform versions that work on

545
00:49:05,340 --> 00:49:11,440
Linux. In that case, it should be more or less a simple switch over. If there are apps where they

546
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:18,000
only have like a Windows or macOS version, that's something that may not need to be looked at a bit

547
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:22,960
further, maybe you can get them working, or maybe you'd have to switch to an alternative that's

548
00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:28,140
natively compatible with Linux that has the same features and lets you work with the same workflow.

549
00:49:28,430 --> 00:49:34,420
And there are a lot of great alternatives to some, you know, Windows or Mac only apps. So app support

550
00:49:34,490 --> 00:49:39,360
is probably the first consideration people should give if they're not sure whether they can switch

551
00:49:39,450 --> 00:49:44,720
to Linux. The other thing is hardware support, which over the years has gotten way, way better.

552
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,760
So that's less of a consideration now than it was 5, 10 years ago.

553
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:56,360
But as I said before, you can download a copy of Zorin OS and run it from a USB drive without

554
00:49:56,620 --> 00:50:01,820
having to install it natively on your computer, just to have a quick check through to see

555
00:50:02,020 --> 00:50:02,520
everything works.

556
00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:07,880
You know, you can get on the internet, you can play audio, all the hardware features that

557
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:08,400
you need work.

558
00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:13,860
99 times out of 100, what we hear is everything works fine out of the box.

559
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,520
Sometimes you may have some hardware features that may not work.

560
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,220
You could contact us if you've got a copy of Pro and we can help set that up.

561
00:50:21,540 --> 00:50:24,980
But it may be worth checking before installing Zorin OS that way.

562
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:26,100
Got it.

563
00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:30,540
And then let's say someone tries out Zorin and they go, oh, I actually really like this.

564
00:50:31,420 --> 00:50:34,260
But I am completely like it's a must.

565
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:42,280
I need to use Adobe Premiere for my job and I just can't get it working to the performance that I want it to perform at on Zorin.

566
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:47,980
can they still dual boot and potentially just use work on Windows and then use you guys personal?

567
00:50:48,140 --> 00:50:52,560
Is that still well supported? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So that's also an option. So

568
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:59,220
you can install Zorin OS alongside Windows. You don't have to replace it on your computer. And

569
00:50:59,470 --> 00:51:04,060
every time you start up your computer, you can either choose to boot into Zorin OS or Windows.

570
00:51:04,820 --> 00:51:10,280
So it's not a full on commitment to switch from Windows to Zorin OS. You can have both on your

571
00:51:10,300 --> 00:51:17,840
computer and, you know, use certain apps that may be Windows only on Windows and then switch over

572
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,720
to Zorin OS when you're doing other tasks. And so you can get the best of both worlds that way.

573
00:51:24,060 --> 00:51:30,540
Very nice. And then kind of just entering the final part of the interview here, I wanted to

574
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:40,260
zoom out a little bit and kind of ask about you guys a bit more. Where are you based out of? What's

575
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,580
there from day one, as well as someone who handles our customer support.

576
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:50,500
So even though the core team behind Zorin OS is quite small and lean, the fact that

577
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:57,980
Zorin OS is built collaboratively with our community and also is based on Linux and open

578
00:51:58,180 --> 00:52:03,060
source ecosystems, it basically means that essentially there are thousands of developers

579
00:52:03,780 --> 00:52:08,620
behind all of the software that goes into Zorin OS, both directly and indirectly.

580
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:28,860
So even large companies behind, say, like Intel or Canonical or Red Hat, IBM, even funnily enough, Microsoft, they contribute code into the Linux kernel and Linux software stack, even on the desktop.

581
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:43,640
So a lot of the work that goes behind Zorin OS and most other Linux distributions, you know, benefit from the work of all sorts of different developers, thousands of developers all over the world working in concept for a singular goal.

582
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:56,540
So it's a massive community when it comes to who does the work behind Zorin OS and other Linux distributions, even if the core team isn't enormous.

583
00:52:58,100 --> 00:52:59,700
Got it. And you guys are based where?

584
00:53:00,740 --> 00:53:02,780
So we're based in Dublin, Ireland.

585
00:53:03,500 --> 00:53:10,960
And though we have a large amount of users all over the world who also contribute to us.

586
00:53:12,100 --> 00:53:13,980
Very cool. I fully get it.

587
00:53:14,010 --> 00:53:21,180
So I'm asking for someone who's new to the idea of open source and the community.

588
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:26,840
They might hear, oh, OK, so you guys take this work that thousands of people do and you make it your own,

589
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:32,040
which is not at all how open source is. But I guess for someone who hears that, do you have a

590
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,880
general response to that? And also, do you guys kind of give back to the community in some way,

591
00:53:37,020 --> 00:53:42,120
shape or form as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, open source is a very interesting model where,

592
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,380
you know, the software is out in the open and you can use it for whatever purpose you wish.

593
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,579
You can make changes to it. You can contribute back upstream. So the fact that there are more

594
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:58,460
people using and developing around different open source projects means that those open source

595
00:53:58,740 --> 00:54:05,640
projects become stronger. So even in cases where, you know, someone's using a certain open source

596
00:54:05,940 --> 00:54:11,280
project in a way that it was never intended to, maybe the developers modified it to work in a

597
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:17,720
different way, you know, those ideas and their code still makes it out into the open. So if someone

598
00:54:17,740 --> 00:54:23,640
wants to use it in that other way, or maybe their upstream developers want to improve their upstream

599
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:32,120
project based on the work that other people have done indirectly, they can adopt some of that code

600
00:54:32,620 --> 00:54:39,480
and develop it so that's better for everyone to use. So it gives a lot more options for innovation,

601
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:45,400
really. And that's one of the core strengths that open source software has over proprietary

602
00:54:45,420 --> 00:54:50,300
software. It can just be more adaptable. It can be used in different ways. And those different

603
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,660
developers working on different ways ultimately can contribute back upstream. In our case,

604
00:54:56,380 --> 00:55:02,540
we've been really grateful for all of the support and work that other developers have done. But at

605
00:55:02,540 --> 00:55:06,680
the same time, we also love to contribute back with the software that we develop. But also,

606
00:55:07,330 --> 00:55:12,420
for example, over the Christmas period, we contributed some of the funds that we've

607
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:18,920
earned with the Zorin OS Pro Edition back into the apps and software that power Zorin OS and make Zorin OS

608
00:55:19,020 --> 00:55:26,160
better. Apps like the Gimp Image Editor, Kdenlive, Inkscape. We've made donations to them to give

609
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:32,380
back to those communities. And I think, you know, every large project out there has a different way

610
00:55:32,380 --> 00:55:38,839
that they can give back to software that they use that underlies there. And this is just our way of

611
00:55:38,860 --> 00:55:44,840
doing it. Yeah, it's something that I wish happened a little bit more because I don't know if people

612
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:52,260
realize probably how much of the code behind the operating systems and the software that they use

613
00:55:52,260 --> 00:55:57,700
on a day-to-day basis from big tech companies still indirectly or even sometimes directly came

614
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:03,240
from the open source community. But it is quite rare for the big tech companies to actually

615
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,300
compensate those projects that they have, you know, borrowed code from. It is a problem. I think the

616
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,180
open source community would be much stronger if companies that use open source code did a better

617
00:56:13,380 --> 00:56:18,960
job of compensating the projects that they use code from. So I do just overall wish that was a

618
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:23,360
slightly, I just wish that was better. That's pretty much what I have to say about that.

619
00:56:23,740 --> 00:56:28,460
And then I also wanted to ask about downloads. I've been following you guys on socials,

620
00:56:28,980 --> 00:56:34,000
and I repost some of your stuff. And you've been really blowing up, it seems like,

621
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:38,680
on the downloads. You guys have been seeing a huge uptick in the last six to 12 months,

622
00:56:38,750 --> 00:56:43,840
it seems like. What does that look like? What's it feel like? But also, what do you attribute

623
00:56:44,100 --> 00:56:51,200
that to? Is it because Windows continues to and shitify with every new update? Is it just people

624
00:56:51,500 --> 00:56:55,260
discovering Linux for the first time by chance? What are you guys kind of seeing back there?

625
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:01,720
Yeah, I think it's a multitude of reasons. Just we've been around for quite a long time,

626
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:10,460
you know, 16, 17 years. And it's the uptake of Linux in general, as well as Zorin OS is nothing

627
00:57:10,660 --> 00:57:17,440
like it's ever been before. And sure, there are many decisions that Microsoft have made to that

628
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:22,620
have given users reasons to think about alternatives. And certainly that's been a massive

629
00:57:24,100 --> 00:57:31,380
path for people on their way to Linux and Zorin OS. But also the Linux ecosystem,

630
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:37,200
system uh the software has gotten way better over the years people are able to use a lot more of the

631
00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:44,980
apps that they use for work or productivity or play with games on linux more so than ever before

632
00:57:46,100 --> 00:57:52,200
and that just makes linux a lot more accessible uh certainly in the short term like saying the

633
00:57:52,340 --> 00:57:59,420
last three months since we released Zorin OSos 18 a massive driver of growth to linux and Zorin OSos has

634
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:07,740
been the end of Windows 10 support and where a lot of the computers that have Windows 10

635
00:58:08,510 --> 00:58:13,540
running on it by some estimates quarter billion computers can't upgrade to Windows 11.

636
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:20,660
So either you know those users have to throw those computers away and buy new ones just continue

637
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:26,579
running a supported version of Windows with Windows 11 or they could switch to an alternative

638
00:58:26,940 --> 00:58:39,440
And given with the increase of hardware prices, RAM prices, especially in recent times, that's just given more reasons for users to think of alternatives and research them.

639
00:58:39,540 --> 00:58:49,760
And because of the work we and the Linux community have done throughout the many years that we've been developing the system, you know, it has gotten a lot more user friendly.

640
00:58:50,420 --> 00:58:52,400
The software support has improved.

641
00:58:52,440 --> 00:59:01,760
So it actually has become a viable alternative to Windows that people can switch over to as general computer users.

642
00:59:01,780 --> 00:59:05,760
You don't have to be super technical or an engineer to switch to Linux nowadays.

643
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:10,720
So the barriers to entry for new users have gone way down.

644
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:17,160
And the reasons for people to look for alternatives have gone way up in recent times.

645
00:59:17,460 --> 00:59:18,220
Yeah, it's mind blowing.

646
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:24,480
I can't believe just how poorly Microsoft botched this whole Windows 10 thing.

647
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:30,360
I mean, even for us, we've done some coverage for it through surveillance report and different

648
00:59:30,620 --> 00:59:31,580
videos about Windows 10.

649
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:33,860
And they perform quite well.

650
00:59:33,860 --> 00:59:34,820
It resonates with people.

651
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,140
People are pissed about it.

652
00:59:37,380 --> 00:59:39,840
I mean, it's a ton of e-waste that's been created by Microsoft.

653
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:45,360
And I don't understand even from a business perspective why Microsoft would jeopardize,

654
00:59:45,900 --> 00:59:51,180
you know, if the number you cited is accurate, a quarter billion computers to be lost to

655
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:56,180
other operating systems, like to pay for an operating system and have a fully functional

656
00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,339
device and not have official updates coming to it anymore is enough reason for a lot of

657
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:07,660
people to move to a Mac or just keep the same hardware and move to Linux or maybe buy a new

658
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:15,300
computer with Linux. But it's pretty mind blowing. So I, yeah. Yeah, it is an interesting choice.

659
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:21,120
Obviously, Microsoft as an organization has changed throughout the years. More and more of

660
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:27,340
the revenue is coming from, you know, online services and enterprise services, software as a

661
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:34,280
service tools, more so AI now as well, which would benefit from, you know, newer, more powerful

662
01:00:34,580 --> 01:00:39,420
computers with neural processing units. So maybe that's another reason why they want to encourage

663
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:46,440
people to buy new computers. Ultimately, that helps to contribute to their bottom line. If the

664
01:00:46,540 --> 01:00:50,800
data that users are generating through the computers make their way back to Microsoft,

665
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,180
Who knows how they handle that data?

666
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,600
There are many ways that it might make sense to them.

667
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:03,880
But from the standpoint of an ordinary computer user, it might not always be to our benefit.

668
01:01:05,580 --> 01:01:07,660
So, yeah, it's just something to think about.

669
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,100
Yeah, did you see this was very refreshing?

670
01:01:12,140 --> 01:01:17,900
Dell, I believe at CES, came forward and said, we're done with this AI marketing stuff.

671
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:20,060
Our users don't care.

672
01:01:20,580 --> 01:01:24,780
it doesn't resonate with them and so Dell kind of moved away from the AI marketing which I thought

673
01:01:24,780 --> 01:01:33,380
was quite refreshing. Yeah it's AI as a tool but also as a buzzword we see that there's a lot

674
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:39,180
large disconnect between what users want out of their technology and out of their computers and

675
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:45,580
what the big tech companies want to provide. So there's obviously a lot of buzz and a lot of hype

676
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:51,820
around AI, especially amongst the big tech companies and the investors behind them. But when we listen

677
01:01:51,820 --> 01:01:57,580
to our users, we hear a lot of people saying that please don't include any AI tools. We just want a

678
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:03,840
normal computer experience that works. Some users may like to use AI, but on their own terms. So

679
01:02:03,940 --> 01:02:08,880
that's one of the reasons why we haven't introduced any AI tools for the sake of AI. We want to be

680
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:14,260
neutral on that standpoint because that's what our users want. Again, there's also the factor of the

681
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:20,460
big tech companies using users' data to train their AI models. And that contributes to their

682
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:26,880
bottom line, but not necessarily to the interests of the users. And that also fuels the disconnect

683
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:32,980
in sentiment between the big companies and people actually using the technology. So it's an

684
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:40,260
interesting time. And it's interesting that even Dell admitted to this shift in sentiment. And we

685
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:46,420
have seen that you know consumer reports show that ai is very low down the list of reasons why

686
01:02:47,140 --> 01:02:53,080
normal people choose one technology product over another so maintaining a close connection to your

687
01:02:53,260 --> 01:02:58,140
users and being really aligned with your users makes a massive difference in actually delivering

688
01:02:58,190 --> 01:03:06,520
a product that makes sense for users yeah it's it is i i don't understand it i mean because i i have

689
01:03:06,540 --> 01:03:12,780
embraced AI a bit more, right? Like I've talked about this on my channel. But right now, any of

690
01:03:12,780 --> 01:03:20,220
the use cases revolving AI are still mostly limited to just LLM chatbots, you know, just chatting back

691
01:03:20,260 --> 01:03:26,480
and forth. But Microsoft has this assumption that people want to use AI in Microsoft Office and all

692
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:32,640
their professional software across the board. And it's like, I just, I personally, if this was just

693
01:03:32,660 --> 01:03:36,980
magically on my computer. It was magically privacy respecting. Like everything was just perfect about

694
01:03:37,020 --> 01:03:42,200
it. I still don't know if I would use it. And so I just find it quite fascinating. Our recording

695
01:03:42,340 --> 01:03:48,080
got cut off. So if I'm repeating any of this, sorry about that. But pretty much a lot of these

696
01:03:48,300 --> 01:03:53,660
LLMs and chatbots are kind of the main use case of AI right now. They're all web based. A lot of

697
01:03:53,740 --> 01:03:59,140
people don't seem to have a strong use case to use local. When I say local, they're still, you know,

698
01:03:59,340 --> 01:04:04,160
done online, but these tools that Microsoft tries to push via copilot. So my point is,

699
01:04:05,230 --> 01:04:10,980
even if someone likes AI a lot, what would that even look like in an operating system like Zorin?

700
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,640
Like what value would you guys be able to provide someone with AI inside of Zorin OS

701
01:04:16,420 --> 01:04:21,640
with the current state of AI, which isn't that developed yet? So I guess I'm just making the

702
01:04:21,820 --> 01:04:25,740
point that I don't really even know what that would look like outside of just including an LLM

703
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,120
that anyone could utilize.

704
01:04:29,420 --> 01:04:33,860
Yeah, I mean, because AI is such a young area,

705
01:04:34,260 --> 01:04:36,660
the developers behind AI tools and products,

706
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:38,780
they're still at the moment trying to figure out

707
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:40,320
how exactly it should be used.

708
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,120
And of course, chatbots are the most obvious way

709
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:44,780
and that's how most people use them.

710
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:46,520
Obviously, there are different tools

711
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:48,860
that make use of machine learning

712
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,120
and some of the AI advancements

713
01:04:52,140 --> 01:04:55,700
in the fields of like image editing or image creation.

714
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,260
But these are still fields where, you know,

715
01:04:59,650 --> 01:05:04,300
they are solutions looking for a problem in many cases.

716
01:05:04,820 --> 01:05:07,920
And it's important to be able to differentiate the hype

717
01:05:08,390 --> 01:05:11,780
behind a certain piece of technology and how useful it can be.

718
01:05:12,420 --> 01:05:16,320
And, you know, AI can be very useful in certain use cases

719
01:05:16,610 --> 01:05:19,280
in the form of LLMs and image generation models.

720
01:05:19,380 --> 01:05:27,320
But if they are to be more integrated in an operating system in this case, would they provide more value?

721
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:38,440
For the time being, we haven't noticed any use cases like that that make a huge amount of sense that actually need to be integrated very deeply into the operating system.

722
01:05:39,020 --> 01:05:44,940
You know, if you want to use an image generation model or a chatbot, you can just do it in your web browser or a local app.

723
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:50,280
There are a few of them for Linux native ones, and you can use it in the same way that you

724
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,040
would have used it previously in other operating systems.

725
01:05:53,430 --> 01:05:59,160
The way we think about developing products is not trying to figure out, hey, there's this

726
01:05:59,300 --> 01:06:00,020
cool new technology.

727
01:06:00,110 --> 01:06:01,920
How can we implement it into the product?

728
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,600
We think about it the other way around.

729
01:06:04,690 --> 01:06:09,480
We think about what experience do we want to provide to users, and then we'll work our

730
01:06:09,620 --> 01:06:11,160
way backwards to the technology.

731
01:06:11,340 --> 01:06:15,520
That's how we feel it's the right way to develop technology products.

732
01:06:15,820 --> 01:06:16,440
That's what we do.

733
01:06:17,140 --> 01:06:20,940
And when we ask users, like, how can we make Zorin OS better?

734
01:06:21,130 --> 01:06:29,400
Or when we look at feedback and figure out how can we make Zorin OS, the user experience behind it, a lot more seamless, a lot more useful to users.

735
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:38,920
There are many ways that we figure that out without needing to resort to, you know, AI in the background.

736
01:06:39,020 --> 01:06:45,780
So it's an area that we're looking very closely at, that we're keeping in touch with all the

737
01:06:45,820 --> 01:06:50,720
latest developments in the chances that it could potentially provide a better user experience.

738
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:59,780
For the time being, we haven't arrived on anything super standout that has to be integrated deeply

739
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:07,240
into the operating system that can be otherwise done ad hoc as a user would like it on their own

740
01:07:07,260 --> 01:07:13,120
terms. But of course, we're always thinking of ways on how to improve Zorin OS as long as it stays

741
01:07:13,370 --> 01:07:19,140
true to our values of being simple and privacy respecting and secure. Interesting times, but

742
01:07:19,670 --> 01:07:25,180
it's important to let cooler heads prevail. Yeah. And I guess, what is the future?

743
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,960
What are you guys working on? What can people expect in the next one to five years?

744
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:39,060
Yeah, so we're always thinking about how to make Zorin OS a lot easier for current Windows users to switch over to.

745
01:07:39,260 --> 01:07:43,220
So narrowing that app gap is a big focus of ours.

746
01:07:43,310 --> 01:07:54,020
And we're thinking of different ways on how to improve supporting of Windows apps within Zorin OS, potentially using tools like Winboat, which I mentioned earlier.

747
01:07:55,940 --> 01:08:05,680
And of course, figuring out ways on how to make Linux more accessible to general computer users, which is where Zorin Grid comes in.

748
01:08:05,810 --> 01:08:17,520
Because we do see that there are two main gatekeepers that we've identified that decide what software gets used by most computer users.

749
01:08:17,660 --> 01:08:23,080
There are the computer brands who ship, you know, Windows or macOS by default.

750
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:30,580
And people who are using their computers generally stick with the same operating system that came with the computers.

751
01:08:31,220 --> 01:08:38,299
But then there's also the IT teams in organizations who can overwrite that decision and they can decide what software is used across their organization.

752
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:47,000
So that's why we want Soren Grid to make it a lot easier for them to have Linux as an option on the desktop.

753
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:57,580
That's where we see Grid as potentially a game changer, not just for Linux, but also just organizations and businesses in general.

754
01:08:58,029 --> 01:09:11,740
And ultimately, over time, if we want more computer brands to ship with Linux by default, we have to give them a reason that, you know, actually a lot of users do specifically want a Linux based system.

755
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:20,160
And if organizations and businesses want to use Linux as their go-to operating system,

756
01:09:20,370 --> 01:09:23,620
that could massively increase the user base of Linux.

757
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:29,259
And ultimately, people who are working in these organizations, they might see that the computers

758
01:09:29,420 --> 01:09:33,540
that we're working on in the office work better than the ones at home.

759
01:09:34,140 --> 01:09:36,319
Maybe it's because Linux is being used.

760
01:09:36,480 --> 01:09:37,500
Maybe I should try it at home.

761
01:09:37,580 --> 01:09:41,839
That's another potential path to getting more people using Linux.

762
01:09:42,900 --> 01:09:48,240
So we're always exploring different ways on how to make Linux and Zorin OS more accessible for the wider audience.

763
01:09:49,540 --> 01:09:53,480
Very nice. And are you exploring mobile devices at all or are you pretty committed to desktop?

764
01:09:54,380 --> 01:10:09,520
At the moment, we're focused on desktop simply because we just see it as there's a massive gap between what most people are using on Windows in terms of how good the operating system is and how good it could be if they make the switch to Linux.

765
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:18,620
So all the advantages when it comes to making your computer run faster, a lot more privacy respecting, more secure, more powerful.

766
01:10:19,460 --> 01:10:24,720
There's just such a huge gap between what people are experiencing on Windows and what they could be on Linux.

767
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:30,980
And that's what we're really focused on, narrowing that gap and making, you know, Linux a lot more accessible on the desktop.

768
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,260
Got it. Well, thank you so much for your time.

769
01:10:34,860 --> 01:10:38,740
And I'll be sure to leave links as well to your project and anything else.

770
01:10:39,540 --> 01:10:42,840
is there a place where people can follow you and keep up with what you're doing?

771
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:48,820
Yeah, I mean, you can follow us on Facebook or Twitter, but generally our email newsletter is

772
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:55,120
probably the best way to go. If you want to be on top of all of our latest news, you can also

773
01:10:55,280 --> 01:11:01,620
check out on our user forum and different Linux based communities around, ask around about Zorin

774
01:11:01,700 --> 01:11:07,900
West and keep updated that way. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. And I hope to

775
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:12,440
to see really exciting updates and even more downloads for Linux as a whole, and especially

776
01:11:12,530 --> 01:11:12,820
you guys.

777
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:14,760
Yeah, thanks so much.

778
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,380
It's been a pleasure.

779
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:17,000
Really enjoyed our conversation.

780
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:18,960
There you have it, everybody.

781
01:11:19,340 --> 01:11:20,500
Thank you so much for watching.

782
01:11:20,750 --> 01:11:24,180
If you enjoyed this interview, definitely check out Zorin down in the description.

783
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:29,060
But if you want to keep supporting these interviews and getting more cool projects on board, not

784
01:11:29,150 --> 01:11:32,360
only do we have a feedback form, if you have someone you think is interesting, so you can

785
01:11:32,430 --> 01:11:34,440
check that out on our website's contact page.

786
01:11:34,740 --> 01:11:40,440
And there's a form there that you can submit and you can leave any suggestions for people you think would be cool to have on Techlor talks.

787
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:42,920
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788
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:47,180
If you become a Techlorian, you get access to our private communities and you get other cool perks.

789
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,480
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790
01:11:49,580 --> 01:11:54,820
So check out how to become a Techlorian and support this podcast down in the description or the show notes.

791
01:11:55,380 --> 01:11:57,400
And I will see you next time on Techlor talks.

792
01:11:57,600 --> 01:11:59,020
Thank you all for watching to the end.

793
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:02,160
And of course, I want to thank Zorin for coming on this podcast.