WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.297 To just choose one is impossible. That is impossible. 00:00:07.457 --> 00:00:14.157 The one that I know each Christian should read is... Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. 00:00:16.317 --> 00:00:21.577 I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, 00:00:21.677 --> 00:00:27.517 where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:28.597 --> 00:00:34.837 Today, we're sitting down on a cold, snowy December afternoon, 00:00:35.197 --> 00:00:42.637 and we've decided that we were gonna talk about what's one book, Cameron, 00:00:43.217 --> 00:00:46.257 that every believer should read or... 00:00:47.577 --> 00:00:50.477 Not... Other than the Bible, Cameron. Okay. 00:00:51.197 --> 00:00:58.417 Other than the Bible. Other than the Bible, what is one book that every believer 00:00:58.417 --> 00:01:01.977 or most believers should pick up and read? 00:01:05.037 --> 00:01:06.237 Okay, so... 00:01:08.737 --> 00:01:13.917 I really think there's two. Oh! Maybe even three. 00:01:14.837 --> 00:01:19.577 I'm over here trying to narrow it down to one, and here you are just going to be like... 00:01:22.437 --> 00:01:30.137 Okay. Yeah, I mean, because if you were to say, name one book in... 00:01:30.137 --> 00:01:35.037 Like name one book in these three genres of book that Christians should read 00:01:35.037 --> 00:01:36.017 other than... I don't know. 00:01:36.257 --> 00:01:43.397 But to just choose one is impossible, that is impossible. 00:01:45.177 --> 00:01:52.517 Because we love books. We do. We do. Okay, so I do kind of have, well, there's two. 00:01:54.493 --> 00:01:59.333 There's one that I know for sure, and then there's two by the same author that 00:01:59.333 --> 00:02:02.033 I'm kind of like, choose one of these and read them. 00:02:02.333 --> 00:02:06.533 They're both... They're different, but they're both like super good, so. Okay. 00:02:06.793 --> 00:02:14.673 The one that I... The one that I know each Christian should read is Cost of 00:02:14.673 --> 00:02:16.553 Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. 00:02:17.153 --> 00:02:18.973 Did I steal yours? No. 00:02:20.073 --> 00:02:25.973 No. No, you're close, but no. Yeah, Caustic Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, 00:02:26.253 --> 00:02:33.093 Bonhoeffer spelled B-O-N-H-O-E-F-F-E-R. 00:02:33.293 --> 00:02:36.153 Now you're just showing off because you can spell his name. Well, no. 00:02:37.013 --> 00:02:39.693 Like, I want you to be able to go and Google it and find it. 00:02:41.013 --> 00:02:46.493 And I did a, when I was doing one of my master's, 00:02:47.373 --> 00:02:51.893 not divinity, but master's of arts and theological theological studies, 00:02:52.773 --> 00:03:00.093 we did a one whole year was on the period of theological reflection called the 00:03:00.093 --> 00:03:05.253 contemporary period, which is around that like 20th, mid-20th century, 00:03:06.173 --> 00:03:07.673 early 20th century period. 00:03:07.913 --> 00:03:12.733 So like Penenberg and Moltmann and Bonhoeffer and all of those guys. 00:03:12.733 --> 00:03:20.013 And we were each assigned a theologian that we needed to study their primary 00:03:20.013 --> 00:03:27.493 works and then choose one main primary work and then respond to it critically. 00:03:29.633 --> 00:03:32.973 And so I spent a whole semester with the. 00:03:34.040 --> 00:03:37.000 I had to study Bonhoeffer for an entire semester. 00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:43.080 And I'm not just choosing that book because I studied it, I think that that 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:46.200 book would probably be on many people's must-read list. 00:03:46.920 --> 00:03:57.140 But anyway, Bonhoeffer was a German who was a seminarian and pastor during World War II, 00:03:57.580 --> 00:04:01.240 in between World War I and World War II, especially in 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:12.980 the rise of Hitler and Bonhoeffer was a functional pacifist meaning he was he 00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:18.460 was not against he was not in favor of the war not in favor of any war. 00:04:20.900 --> 00:04:36.040 And however, saw Hitler's leadership and what the Nazi regime was doing as a primary danger, 00:04:36.980 --> 00:04:41.080 to both the justice of God and the holiness of God and whatever, 00:04:41.260 --> 00:04:43.040 and so he essentially said, you know, 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:53.260 the whatever evil may exist in the act of war is less, 00:04:54.760 --> 00:05:02.500 or whatever evil may exist in the act of war is not as great of an evil as not 00:05:02.500 --> 00:05:07.280 acting to eliminate Hitler. Right. 00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:16.140 So he was a part of then a plot to assassinate Hitler, a plot that was unsuccessful 00:05:16.140 --> 00:05:21.020 and that ultimately got him, got Bonhoeffer killed. Yes. 00:05:22.460 --> 00:05:27.280 But in the midst of all of that, as a very young theologian, 00:05:27.440 --> 00:05:29.900 he was very prolific in and writing, 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:36.400 and the cost of discipleship was probably one of his more famous, 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:38.360 is probably his most famous work. 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:42.140 That and Life Together. And Life Together, yeah, which is about community. 00:05:44.900 --> 00:05:51.120 And so if I had to recommend one book that any Christian would read outside 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:55.660 of the Bible, it would be Cost of Discipleship, which helps us to focus. 00:05:58.725 --> 00:06:01.785 It doesn't really help us to focus. It's just a kind of a corrective to the 00:06:01.785 --> 00:06:07.365 more contemporary understanding of Christianity as being the key to all of your 00:06:07.365 --> 00:06:09.845 joy and happiness in life. 00:06:10.945 --> 00:06:15.845 Caustic Discipleship helps us to remember that a relationship with Jesus or 00:06:15.845 --> 00:06:22.725 following Jesus is also is, you know, following a road to our own crucifixion, 00:06:22.745 --> 00:06:25.545 our own death, ultimately our own resurrection, 00:06:25.965 --> 00:06:28.045 but our own death as well. 00:06:28.385 --> 00:06:37.285 So, but it communicates a radical call, a radical call of following Jesus. 00:06:37.765 --> 00:06:41.245 So that would be my first must read. 00:06:41.765 --> 00:06:46.045 Yeah, Bonhoeffer's a dude. He is a dude. 00:06:46.305 --> 00:06:51.765 And in fact, if you wanna not just read what he wrote, but read about him. 00:06:53.765 --> 00:07:03.565 Eric Metaxas, M-E-T-A-X-A-S, who is a Christian biographer, wrote a biography 00:07:03.565 --> 00:07:07.365 of Bonhoeffer that's probably the best out there. 00:07:07.665 --> 00:07:13.305 It's fantastic, it's easy to read. It's pretty thick. It's a very thick book. But it's easy to read. 00:07:13.745 --> 00:07:17.665 I think it's titled Prophet, Priest, and Martyr, or something like that is the 00:07:17.665 --> 00:07:19.925 subtitle to it. But it's so good. 00:07:20.125 --> 00:07:25.245 Yeah, and you'd really really really really like that if you haven't read a 00:07:25.245 --> 00:07:31.545 biography on Bonhoeffer but want to he was quite the because like He not only 00:07:31.545 --> 00:07:37.785 did he ultimately end up being you know at least involved in the planning of 00:07:37.785 --> 00:07:39.405 an assassination attempt against Hitler, 00:07:39.585 --> 00:07:44.985 but leading up to that he was part of the like The church that was resisting 00:07:44.985 --> 00:07:47.265 government control by the Nazis. 00:07:47.625 --> 00:07:55.465 Yes, and And all of that so it was you know, there was a Yeah a big long story. 00:07:55.525 --> 00:07:58.365 I even remember reading in a short biographical. 00:08:01.253 --> 00:08:06.973 Statement, or like summary of that, like him contemplating, like people giving 00:08:06.973 --> 00:08:10.033 him an out and saying, stay here in the United States, 00:08:10.233 --> 00:08:15.173 don't go back because people were watching what was happening in Germany and 00:08:15.173 --> 00:08:18.293 were like, things are not going well, we think we're moving towards a war, 00:08:18.393 --> 00:08:23.133 and he was like, no, I'm gonna go back because of that, so... Yeah. 00:08:24.133 --> 00:08:36.293 So, excellent. Yeah. Excellent book. Why do you think that book is so pertinent? 00:08:37.033 --> 00:08:43.153 Because it is a message that's not popular in church. 00:08:43.733 --> 00:08:48.233 Just not. We go to church to feel better about ourselves. 00:08:48.913 --> 00:08:53.813 You know, we feel we go to church to have like a, to be lifted up in spirit, 00:08:54.393 --> 00:08:58.773 you know, to have a joyful competence, to be recharged, however you wanna, 00:08:58.993 --> 00:09:00.973 however you wanna talk about it. 00:09:01.073 --> 00:09:07.013 But the scriptures that speak about like the cost of, 00:09:08.034 --> 00:09:14.474 the personal cost, the familial cost, the societal cost, to following Jesus, 00:09:14.834 --> 00:09:18.314 to being a disciple of Jesus is not something that often gets talked about, 00:09:18.354 --> 00:09:22.494 or at least doesn't get talked about a whole lot. 00:09:23.574 --> 00:09:30.594 But it is firmly rooted in the life of the cross, the life of discipleship. 00:09:30.734 --> 00:09:36.254 I mean, you look at every single one of the disciples, every single prominent 00:09:36.254 --> 00:09:41.414 figure that followed Jesus closely, that was a disciple, 00:09:43.114 --> 00:09:45.974 they didn't ride off into the sunset of the Roman Empire, 00:09:48.574 --> 00:09:53.394 victorious because of their relationship with Jesus Christ. They were killed for it. Right. 00:09:54.314 --> 00:09:56.734 But most of them were killed in a spirit of joy. 00:10:00.094 --> 00:10:06.294 And Paul himself, Paul included, Peter, John, They were all killed, 00:10:07.394 --> 00:10:11.094 executed in some way, shape, or form because... Rather violently often. 00:10:11.294 --> 00:10:13.674 Yeah, violently because of 00:10:13.674 --> 00:10:17.274 their insistence on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and as Him as Lord. 00:10:18.474 --> 00:10:26.674 And so that is not a popular message, and we're far away from... 00:10:26.674 --> 00:10:30.654 We're far away from as a people understanding, 00:10:31.754 --> 00:10:37.454 or at least I should say, in the United States and generally in the Western world, 00:10:37.974 --> 00:10:44.694 we are way, way, way, way, way far away from understanding the practice, 00:10:44.994 --> 00:10:47.974 that the practice of our faith could require our... 00:10:47.974 --> 00:10:58.554 Requires people's lives sometimes. You know, it's more of like a fake scenario 00:10:58.554 --> 00:10:59.874 that we tell youth group kids. 00:10:59.974 --> 00:11:03.474 If people came into this church right now, held a gun to your head and said, 00:11:03.654 --> 00:11:07.494 you have to renounce the Bible, would you do it or not? Like... 00:11:09.132 --> 00:11:13.752 Of course, they all say, oh, no, I would not do it, right? 00:11:14.092 --> 00:11:21.052 Because it's such a fanciful scenario that no one actually takes it seriously. Yeah. 00:11:21.572 --> 00:11:26.352 Yeah. Unless... Did you see that clip? I think it's from... There's a podcast 00:11:26.352 --> 00:11:29.012 out there that I see the reels all the time. 00:11:29.092 --> 00:11:33.032 What is it? Youth ministry stories or something like that? I've seen them, yeah. 00:11:33.272 --> 00:11:38.012 And they have that story about somebody who was in a youth group and... 00:11:38.012 --> 00:11:42.232 Fake gunman type of thing. Fake gunman kidnapped, the parents were in on it 00:11:42.232 --> 00:11:45.232 and approved it, and it was all like the youth leaders and stuff, 00:11:45.872 --> 00:11:51.612 and scared these kids to death and probably caused lots of trauma. 00:11:51.872 --> 00:11:54.952 Yeah, those kids are all deconstructing today. Yeah. 00:11:56.412 --> 00:12:04.012 Don't do that. Don't phage a fake hostage situation in order to give your kids 00:12:04.012 --> 00:12:10.452 a taste of suffering for the gospel, but that would not be a good youth ministry strategy. 00:12:12.292 --> 00:12:16.692 You know? So do you want to talk about the other two books that you were thinking, 00:12:16.812 --> 00:12:18.872 or do you want... No, let's go with you. 00:12:18.992 --> 00:12:22.072 Go with me. And let's see... See if I name one of those other two books. 00:12:22.072 --> 00:12:22.912 See if you name one of them, yep. 00:12:23.552 --> 00:12:27.192 Oh, man, I keep going back and forth. 00:12:29.747 --> 00:12:36.347 But I'll kind of go with, I'll go with like maybe a safe answer, 00:12:36.627 --> 00:12:41.527 because it's a little bit, it's broad, it's a classic, it's like proven the 00:12:41.527 --> 00:12:43.227 test of time, and I would say like. 00:12:45.447 --> 00:12:48.747 Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It was one of mine. 00:12:49.247 --> 00:12:54.187 It's one of my other ones. I have one of Lewis' books is on my, 00:12:54.287 --> 00:12:56.767 man, it's one of these two, so I can talk about that one next. 00:12:56.767 --> 00:13:00.167 Yeah, Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. 00:13:00.927 --> 00:13:05.667 Lewis is probably one of the authors that I've... I haven't read all of his 00:13:05.667 --> 00:13:10.407 stuff by any means, but out of all the authors I've read, I've read close... 00:13:10.407 --> 00:13:13.307 I've read more of his stuff than I've read any other author, 00:13:13.467 --> 00:13:21.547 so... And there's a lot to, like, dive into it, but, like, mere Christianity 00:13:21.547 --> 00:13:25.387 is, I think it's fairly approachable. 00:13:26.967 --> 00:13:30.747 It's, I mean, it's older, so, like, some of the language might be a little bit 00:13:30.747 --> 00:13:37.427 of a challenge to kind of, you know, tackle if you're not used to reading literature 00:13:37.427 --> 00:13:41.047 that's not recently written with our vocabulary, 00:13:41.367 --> 00:13:45.827 but, But you know, it was originally, I think several, 00:13:46.327 --> 00:13:50.407 it was a radio program that he put on through the BBC, 00:13:51.367 --> 00:13:57.527 and it was a series of lectures that he did that way, and then he took those 00:13:57.527 --> 00:14:05.207 BBC lectures and wrote them out, edited them, and turned them into the book, Mere Christianity. 00:14:05.207 --> 00:14:14.347 And so it was written with this very broad intention to kind of speak to a large, 00:14:14.747 --> 00:14:22.427 wide audience and make an argumentation for Christianity's reasonableness, how it. 00:14:23.716 --> 00:14:30.756 Addresses some of the secular, like, proclivities of like society, 00:14:30.976 --> 00:14:35.536 like, talks about like the moral law, and covers a whole bunch of things. 00:14:35.596 --> 00:14:39.496 And it's, it's really good to read in sequence, 00:14:39.716 --> 00:14:45.456 but it's also not quite so such a complicated book that you couldn't open up 00:14:45.456 --> 00:14:50.996 a chapter and just start in a chapter and still get some pretty significant things out of it. 00:14:51.096 --> 00:14:55.856 So it's, you know, just one of the biggest authors, thinkers, 00:14:56.056 --> 00:15:00.796 writers, and apologists in recent Christian history relatively. 00:15:02.196 --> 00:15:06.156 And I think it's worth reading at some point if you can. 00:15:07.616 --> 00:15:11.616 There's even if you're like really intimidated by like picking up a book, 00:15:11.696 --> 00:15:18.976 you could go online and there is this YouTube account called CS Lewis Doodles, 00:15:19.676 --> 00:15:29.816 and he has some portions of Mere Christianity, and he has these hand-drawn animations 00:15:29.816 --> 00:15:31.336 that go along with the book. 00:15:31.516 --> 00:15:34.236 They're really fun to watch. Bible Project by CS Lewis? 00:15:34.496 --> 00:15:38.436 Yeah, something like that. But CS Lewis Doodles, you can check them out, 00:15:38.616 --> 00:15:42.816 and you'll get a taste or a flavor for what some of the content of that book 00:15:42.816 --> 00:15:47.876 is that way, if you're a little hesitant to dive into a book right away. 00:15:48.436 --> 00:15:51.816 Did any of your college professors use Mere Christianity as a text? 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:58.800 No, I read it in high school. I got to go to a Christian school, 00:15:59.220 --> 00:16:03.020 and I think that was the first time I was exposed to it was in high school. Yeah. 00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:09.240 I'm thinking back, I think in undergrad, I took an Intro to Christianity class, 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:14.900 and I think it was one of the supplemental texts or something like that that we could read. 00:16:15.500 --> 00:16:21.780 No. There was a class, I could have taken a literature class that was only the literature of C.S. 00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:26.940 Lewis, but I had a pretty heavy semester load that year and I decided not to 00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:31.820 because they were gonna read every major fiction and nonfiction book that he 00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:35.300 wrote in a semester and I was like, I can't keep up with that. 00:16:35.420 --> 00:16:40.240 So I had to miss that class because I just I was taking too many other classes 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:43.040 that required too much. I was like, I cannot get able to do that. 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:50.700 I have read, I did read a lot of his stuff in because I was a dual religion and philosophy major. 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:59.540 And so a lot of his stuff crossed both of those spectrums, like philosophy of 00:16:59.540 --> 00:17:00.540 religion and stuff like that. 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:05.600 So I know for sure I read The Problem of Pain, read Miracles, 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:09.140 wrote a whole paper on Miracles, if you remember that. 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:15.800 The Great Divorce, read that in that same class. 00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:24.400 Of course, mere Christianity was a primary text in a lot of classes, but yeah, classic. 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:31.100 I think it's gonna be on the short list for most people, should be on the short list for most people. 00:17:32.860 --> 00:17:39.120 So I would say the other one that I was thinking of was another Lewis book, but I wasn't... 00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:44.680 It's not... I think it's equally as popular, but it's not really in the same 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:49.060 genre. Okay is Screw tape letters. 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:56.880 Yeah, I really think that it is a Extraordinarily, 00:17:58.258 --> 00:18:05.718 applicable, appropriate, insightful book for most Christians to read. 00:18:06.418 --> 00:18:11.738 It is, and I think Lewis would say this, it does take some liberties. 00:18:13.218 --> 00:18:20.558 It takes quite a few liberties, obviously, with faith and spirituality or Christian thought. 00:18:20.958 --> 00:18:24.058 Screw tape letters, a great divorce that you mentioned also, 00:18:24.258 --> 00:18:28.338 he would say, both are theological or like, 00:18:29.278 --> 00:18:33.578 Their allegories, they're not even like, you know, they're not even in the same 00:18:33.578 --> 00:18:37.978 category as like, you know Most people know definitely no CS Lewis for line 00:18:37.978 --> 00:18:43.698 which in the wardrobe the Chronicles of Narnia series, which is fiction with allegorical, 00:18:44.358 --> 00:18:52.398 imagery but screw tape letters and Great divorce in particular are both more 00:18:52.398 --> 00:18:59.338 explicit in their allegory but he's a little bit more liberal with some... 00:18:59.338 --> 00:19:06.218 He's not interested in representing true Christian, like, theology in its exactness 00:19:06.218 --> 00:19:10.098 necessarily, but showing spiritual principles. Yeah. 00:19:10.858 --> 00:19:13.958 So, but what is Screwtape Letters for those who've never, like, 00:19:14.018 --> 00:19:16.678 had any exposure to them? Like, what is the book? 00:19:16.918 --> 00:19:25.098 So, the main... the main idea of the book is the screw tape is a demon and he's 00:19:25.098 --> 00:19:28.298 writing letters to another demon, Wormwood. 00:19:31.158 --> 00:19:38.098 And it's like a, basically what you have is you have the letters going back and forth, 00:19:38.998 --> 00:19:50.378 about the mentor demon teaching the mentee how to essentially like break down a child of God. 00:19:52.098 --> 00:19:57.738 And kind of like the cunning and craftiness of what must be done and how to 00:19:57.738 --> 00:20:03.678 use culture and how to use their own appetites, physical and emotional, mental appetites. 00:20:05.238 --> 00:20:11.718 And essentially it's just like this way of seeing the, of describing the cunningness 00:20:11.718 --> 00:20:17.738 of the enemy to destroy the children of God. Yeah. 00:20:19.138 --> 00:20:23.718 It's not scary. No, it's not scary. It even makes it, I think, 00:20:23.798 --> 00:20:25.998 somewhat humorous at times. 00:20:26.258 --> 00:20:30.498 Like it's not like, it's kind of weird to feel like you're reading, 00:20:31.418 --> 00:20:35.318 because it somewhat disarms it a little bit by thinking that you're reading 00:20:35.318 --> 00:20:40.478 essentially like these, like office memos that are being passed back and forth 00:20:40.478 --> 00:20:43.298 between two demons is what the tone of it sounds like, 00:20:43.618 --> 00:20:46.538 and so it sounds kind of goofy at times. Yep. 00:20:47.598 --> 00:20:51.338 Yeah. So, but I think it does. 00:20:52.983 --> 00:20:56.703 Haven't read it in quite a few years. I look for my copy still looking for my 00:20:56.703 --> 00:20:59.863 copy If you have my paper copy of the screw tape letters, please bring them back to me. 00:21:02.423 --> 00:21:05.843 Belongs to the library of Cameron. Yeah, I'm about to buy it again I'm about 00:21:05.843 --> 00:21:10.003 to buy it as a digital so that I can read it again but it's been a while since 00:21:10.003 --> 00:21:12.503 I've read it, but I want to right now and, 00:21:14.923 --> 00:21:20.603 and Yeah, just I have always felt like it's a really interesting take on and 00:21:20.603 --> 00:21:22.403 really interesting way to to 00:21:22.403 --> 00:21:29.063 process through what happens or what may be happening in a person's life, 00:21:29.843 --> 00:21:36.583 you know, behind the spiritual veil that we don't really see with our human 00:21:36.583 --> 00:21:44.703 eyes, but that, you know, that the scripture says is there and active and working. 00:21:46.363 --> 00:21:48.143 The spiritual realm, that is. 00:21:48.143 --> 00:21:55.383 And so it was, it's all, it always has kind of like been, I always come away 00:21:55.383 --> 00:21:58.123 from books like that, the screw tape letters. 00:21:58.383 --> 00:22:01.523 And I don't know if you've ever, this is probably, this is a little bit less 00:22:01.523 --> 00:22:08.263 of a classic, but have you ever read any of the, this present darkness book? 00:22:08.403 --> 00:22:10.163 These present, this present darkness by Frank Peretti. 00:22:10.443 --> 00:22:13.843 Yes. Piercing the darkness, this present darkness. Yeah, I read those. 00:22:14.003 --> 00:22:18.003 I read some of those, I think, when I was in high school at some point. Yeah. 00:22:18.383 --> 00:22:25.023 Yeah. Those are completely fiction, but they are all about depicting the spiritual 00:22:25.023 --> 00:22:26.123 battle that we don't see, 00:22:26.543 --> 00:22:37.083 and I always walk away from reading those books with an increased perception, 00:22:37.923 --> 00:22:47.203 an increased perception of the spiritual world around me, but also like a greater passion to pray. 00:22:48.483 --> 00:22:53.683 Like, oh, I need to be praying more. 00:22:54.811 --> 00:22:58.431 I need to be praying more that spiritual strongholds would be torn down, 00:22:59.171 --> 00:23:05.271 that I would have eyes to see the things that are going on around me spiritually, 00:23:05.451 --> 00:23:10.151 not just what appears on the surface of people's lives, but what is actually 00:23:10.151 --> 00:23:14.211 happening in the spiritual realm around them so that I can pray into that and 00:23:14.211 --> 00:23:15.731 that I can pastor towards that, 00:23:16.331 --> 00:23:20.311 not just pastor towards what we see. 00:23:21.291 --> 00:23:26.411 So, yeah. My two books then would be Screwtape Letters by C.S. 00:23:26.451 --> 00:23:29.711 Lewis and The Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. 00:23:31.411 --> 00:23:36.191 Add your book Mere Christianity by Lewis, and I think you've got a pretty solid top three. 00:23:36.691 --> 00:23:41.251 Yeah, very much. I don't know what else. Let's say, okay, let's, 00:23:41.731 --> 00:23:44.751 do you have any things that would be honorable mention? Yeah. 00:23:46.891 --> 00:23:52.071 I think another Lewis book that deserves honorable mention is Till We Have Faces, 00:23:53.331 --> 00:24:00.271 which is much more of a fiction book, but with some really poignant themes that 00:24:00.271 --> 00:24:04.211 I find a lot of people end up resonating with. 00:24:04.371 --> 00:24:11.551 So it's a retelling of a, I believe, a Greek myth. 00:24:11.671 --> 00:24:18.171 So he takes a Greek myth and then he kind of changes it a little bit in order to kind of demonstrate. 00:24:21.467 --> 00:24:28.047 What false love and true love looks like So the whole book it's a really good 00:24:28.047 --> 00:24:33.027 book it's a book where if you follow along with the main character you get to see a, 00:24:34.767 --> 00:24:38.767 Fantastic perspective shift which at the end you're just like Well, 00:24:38.787 --> 00:24:43.187 you see when you get to the last like three four chapters of the book There's 00:24:43.187 --> 00:24:47.427 a perspective shift that happens and you suddenly reinterpret or re-understand 00:24:47.427 --> 00:24:49.747 the whole book differently, 00:24:50.087 --> 00:24:52.207 makes it worth rereading. 00:24:53.427 --> 00:25:03.147 But the main idea of that book is that it depicts both healthy love and unhealthy love, 00:25:03.307 --> 00:25:10.947 and how we sometimes fall into this trap of believing that, like, 00:25:11.807 --> 00:25:17.687 love of our friends, love of our neighbors, love of our closest and dearest 00:25:17.687 --> 00:25:25.027 ones or significant others has to look a certain way, and we think it's love, but it's not, 00:25:25.447 --> 00:25:29.887 because people have done some pretty awful and controlling or manipulative things 00:25:29.887 --> 00:25:35.287 in the name of love, but ultimately love is freeing, it's giving, 00:25:35.667 --> 00:25:38.327 it's not controlling or demanding, right? 00:25:38.967 --> 00:25:42.747 You can quote that whole passage, Corinthians. So. 00:25:43.787 --> 00:25:49.687 So it's a really it's a really good book But it's much more Allegorical a little 00:25:49.687 --> 00:25:53.927 bit more like you're gonna have to wrestle with the text a little bit more Lewis 00:25:53.927 --> 00:25:58.507 doesn't necessarily lay out Exactly what he's intending you to learn from the book, 00:25:59.347 --> 00:26:05.247 a lot of Lewis's books Some of it a lot of his fiction books can tend to pair 00:26:05.247 --> 00:26:07.607 with his nonfiction writings. 00:26:07.707 --> 00:26:14.627 So So we have faces, pairs with the Four Loves book that he wrote where he talks 00:26:14.627 --> 00:26:19.167 about his different, his philosophical categories for the different types of 00:26:19.167 --> 00:26:21.407 loves in relationships we have, so. 00:26:22.087 --> 00:26:24.307 Okay, how about this? How about. 00:26:25.446 --> 00:26:29.266 Name a book written in the last 30 years Okay. 00:26:29.586 --> 00:26:33.066 Yeah. Okay. So name name a book written in the last 30 years that you would 00:26:33.066 --> 00:26:37.426 recommend because these are these are all books from Yeah, these are like a 00:26:37.426 --> 00:26:39.086 hundred years ago a hundred years ago. 00:26:39.546 --> 00:26:47.686 Yeah, almost if not, yeah already so I can think of two. Okay, I can think of, 00:26:50.406 --> 00:26:53.606 Life of the Beloved by Henry Nowen or. 00:26:58.386 --> 00:27:01.306 Emotionally Healthy Discipleship by Peter Scazzaro. Yeah. 00:27:02.106 --> 00:27:07.366 I would say that would be... I've not read that Nowen book, but Scazzaro's book, 00:27:07.446 --> 00:27:08.506 I think, would be a good one. 00:27:08.606 --> 00:27:12.586 I was gonna say... I actually had two Nowen books on my list, too. 00:27:13.266 --> 00:27:23.866 Would be either The Wounded Healer by Nowen, or In Jesus' Name by Henry Nowen. 00:27:23.866 --> 00:27:28.926 And that's, those are two really good ones. 00:27:30.786 --> 00:27:36.426 I would also say The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey. 00:27:39.266 --> 00:27:43.746 Mind-bendingly awesome book. Really? I've never read that one. Oh my gosh. So good. 00:27:44.206 --> 00:27:47.426 That was the first book I ever was made to read in college. 00:27:48.226 --> 00:27:56.226 My first class of my freshman year of college, like first college class ever, 00:27:56.926 --> 00:28:02.286 I walk into a class, it was a class with Jesus of Nazareth, 00:28:03.766 --> 00:28:10.946 and I had no idea what a academic study of Jesus of Nazareth was gonna look like. 00:28:11.026 --> 00:28:16.566 I thought it was gonna be all about like, I didn't know, no concept of the historical 00:28:16.566 --> 00:28:20.926 Jesus, There's no concept of literary criticism or historical criticism or anything like that. 00:28:21.926 --> 00:28:31.326 But anyway, thankfully, my professor was and is a believer and pastor, 00:28:31.526 --> 00:28:34.666 but also PhD in New Testament studies. 00:28:35.246 --> 00:28:41.286 So she had us read as the first book, The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey, 00:28:41.366 --> 00:28:49.306 which is more of a reflection. It's not necessarily an academic work, but a reflection. 00:28:52.696 --> 00:28:57.896 It's really really good. I would also maybe add some of Peterson's works So, 00:28:57.976 --> 00:29:02.896 oh, yeah, Peterson's books, which ones though If you're in ministry, 00:29:02.916 --> 00:29:05.796 I would I would read his memoir the pastor. 00:29:06.136 --> 00:29:12.976 Mm-hmm. It's excellent book The contemplative pastor is always sat pretty high 00:29:12.976 --> 00:29:15.376 on my list of books for pastors to read. 00:29:15.496 --> 00:29:21.656 Yep five smooth stones for pastoral work Mm-hmm by Peterson is really good. 00:29:21.776 --> 00:29:34.196 Yep Um, I would say, uh, a law and obedience at the same direction by Peterson, very good one as well. 00:29:35.356 --> 00:29:39.636 Um, but I would read as I would read as if you haven't read his memoir called 00:29:39.636 --> 00:29:41.556 the pastor, I would read that. Yeah. 00:29:41.876 --> 00:29:48.196 Cause it helps to bring a lot of clarity to who Peterson was and why he did 00:29:48.196 --> 00:29:51.276 write a lot of the things that he wrote. 00:29:51.516 --> 00:29:55.356 If you don't know who Eugene Peterson is, but you've ever read the Message version 00:29:55.356 --> 00:29:58.936 of the Bible, Peterson is the one who wrote that. 00:30:00.136 --> 00:30:04.596 RL – Wrote the Message. RL – What he's most known for. RL – That and then secondarily, 00:30:04.776 --> 00:30:06.856 probably, is Long Obedience in the same direction. 00:30:07.296 --> 00:30:09.216 RL – Yeah. And he catches a lot of grief. 00:30:09.776 --> 00:30:14.416 Well, I guess it depends on the environment that you're in, but he can often 00:30:14.416 --> 00:30:17.716 catch a lot of grief for writing the Message. Oh, it's a watered down version. 00:30:17.956 --> 00:30:22.256 Oh, like, you know, but it's actually a translation. 00:30:22.536 --> 00:30:29.476 It's very, and here's the thing too, is Peterson has dual PhDs in Semitic language. 00:30:30.976 --> 00:30:35.016 Something that I didn't know until I read his memoir that he is, 00:30:35.156 --> 00:30:38.396 uh, he's a, a very well respected, 00:30:38.596 --> 00:30:44.636 very well read dual PhD in Semitic language, which both Aramaic and Greek are 00:30:44.636 --> 00:30:46.096 Semitic languages, so is Hebrew. 00:30:46.936 --> 00:30:50.016 And so it would, it would, like... 00:30:51.112 --> 00:30:56.732 It's not like he's just some dude who's rephrasing the English translation. 00:30:57.052 --> 00:31:02.532 He actually translated from the original using his expertise. 00:31:03.372 --> 00:31:10.672 Yeah. So there are many more Bible translations out there that are actually 00:31:10.672 --> 00:31:17.572 just some dude rephrasing English translations translations into modern or doing, there, there, 00:31:17.792 --> 00:31:23.652 there are significantly more translations I would have more problems with than the message. 00:31:24.372 --> 00:31:29.592 Again, you know, it's not the translation philosophy that I think is useful 00:31:29.592 --> 00:31:34.992 for everything, but it's a good translation. 00:31:35.412 --> 00:31:37.572 Like read it. Yep. 00:31:40.512 --> 00:31:45.612 Yeah, that's a whole little bunny trail, but yeah, Peterson's a great guy to 00:31:45.612 --> 00:31:52.232 read, particularly if you're interested in pastoral ministry or just ministry in general. 00:31:52.612 --> 00:31:54.592 It's a really good voice to hear. 00:31:55.552 --> 00:32:01.512 What about why so many now in books between the two of us? 00:32:04.792 --> 00:32:07.532 That's a good question. I don't know. 00:32:08.512 --> 00:32:16.612 I think what I respect about Nouwen is his, I think I respect the philosophy 00:32:16.612 --> 00:32:19.332 of ministry that he employed, 00:32:20.272 --> 00:32:26.312 which was like self-emptying. 00:32:26.312 --> 00:32:34.792 I mean, like Peterson, Nowen, we mentioned Peter Scissaro, 00:32:35.412 --> 00:32:42.392 all three of those are contemplative in a modern sense. 00:32:44.272 --> 00:32:51.632 They're about as monastic as you can get in a modern setting, kind of. 00:32:52.932 --> 00:32:57.652 So, which is interesting because I'm not really a contemplative person, 00:32:57.852 --> 00:33:06.572 but I appreciate both Peterson and now and for that. 00:33:07.032 --> 00:33:11.592 Yeah. Yeah. I think they, and when we were saying contemplative, 00:33:11.732 --> 00:33:17.012 I don't know, contemplative is like a really big word that we I won't dare and 00:33:17.012 --> 00:33:29.232 try and define exactly but it's it's this more I guess like contemplative is more of, 00:33:30.938 --> 00:33:33.978 Wait, I'm gonna mess it up, because I always mess it up. 00:33:35.558 --> 00:33:40.858 Was it Mary that sat at Jesus' feet and Martha was running around? Yes. 00:33:41.398 --> 00:33:50.158 So contemplative spirituality would be Mary sitting and being with Jesus. Yep. 00:33:50.838 --> 00:33:58.978 Martha spirituality, which is, I think, more prevalent in evangelical and modern, 00:33:59.958 --> 00:34:03.558 Protestant denominations, is a doing things for Christ. 00:34:05.678 --> 00:34:09.278 And so... The only way that I can keep those two straight is from the book title. 00:34:10.438 --> 00:34:14.478 You ever come across that book before? Having a Merry Heart in a Martha World? 00:34:15.738 --> 00:34:20.678 Oh, yeah, now that I will use that as my, as I can keep those two. 00:34:20.678 --> 00:34:22.918 That's the only way that I can keep those two, the who said it, 00:34:22.958 --> 00:34:23.858 who's feet, so. Martha World, yeah. 00:34:24.658 --> 00:34:28.818 But we live in a world where we're defined by what we do, how well we do it. 00:34:29.558 --> 00:34:33.538 You know, we are doing things with Christ, or doing things for Christ, 00:34:33.578 --> 00:34:38.638 which are not in themselves necessarily awful, but when that's the only way 00:34:38.638 --> 00:34:43.278 in which we know Jesus, and we never know Jesus by simply being with Him, 00:34:43.998 --> 00:34:47.178 we begin to run into some unhealthy tendencies. 00:34:47.398 --> 00:34:55.238 And so I think all those authors kind of push us into a more merry way of being, 00:34:55.238 --> 00:34:58.318 a being rather than a doing. 00:34:59.738 --> 00:35:03.338 Right. And if you want an even more modern take on that, you can read some of 00:35:03.338 --> 00:35:05.118 John Mark Comer's books. Yeah. 00:35:05.698 --> 00:35:11.218 The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry is probably his most famous. Yeah. 00:35:11.838 --> 00:35:14.938 It's very good towards that lifestyle as well. 00:35:15.078 --> 00:35:20.398 So, well, if you guys out there listening or watching or whatever, 00:35:20.498 --> 00:35:25.478 if you have a book that one, you think we should read. 2. 00:35:27.618 --> 00:35:32.738 You think it should be a book that's included on the list of books other than 00:35:32.738 --> 00:35:34.938 the Bible that all Christians should read. 00:35:36.158 --> 00:35:42.738 Drop it in the comments and let us know. Maybe we will pick it up and read it and respond to it. 00:35:43.038 --> 00:35:45.498 Or maybe we've already read it. Or maybe we've already read it. 00:35:47.878 --> 00:35:51.898 But anyway, we appreciate you listening today. It's hopefully, 00:35:52.158 --> 00:35:55.018 well, it looks like a little bit of a shorter episode for you today. 00:35:56.798 --> 00:36:00.438 Any questions, feel free to drop them in the comments. 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:20.909 Music.