[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:14] Dan: ANd you're Safely. Safely. Ensconced. Ensconced. Is that a word? Ensconced? I think it, is.

[00:00:19] Pia: Well, you can see it, but our listeners can't, I have sort of slight slit holes for eyes

[00:00:25] Dan: Oh my word. the jet lag.

[00:00:28] Pia: Jet lagged. Sort of screeching in

[00:00:31] Dan: You've been a right around the world, so, 

[00:00:34] Pia: Right around the world. We went on around the world trip.

[00:00:36] Dan: Well, you did, I managed to just skip over to San Francisco and sort of slowly, was great. Uh, and so it seems, so, it seems. But, uh, great trip one, and by the way, wonderful to see you, my friend, in the, you know, the flesh and just spend, hang out and, uh, really dive into some topics. Absolutely brilliant. 

[00:00:56] Pia: There's just nothing nicer than breaking bread together. We had so many meals together, and there's just something, all our topics of conversations ranged left, right, and center and oh God, that is a beautiful thing, beautiful thing. Rather than having a calendar invite for a discussion, which we do very well.

[00:01:18] Dan: And I have to say that, and I'd recommend this to everyone, is to, um, is that one of the things that you do is we don't have small talk. So you, you are gonna ask one of your pointy questions. You're not pointy, but deep questions. It's sort Oh, that's a good, so off we go. So yeah, I just commend it to everyone. When you spend time with someone, it's precious. And don't be shallow is

[00:01:39] Pia: Yeah, don't be shallow. Get to the meat of 

[00:01:42] Dan: We were shallow some weren't we? There was lots of shallowness, don't get me wrong. We weren't that sophisticated. But, uh, but we got, we got into some, into some big topics, and it was really a promising trip in a number of ways, I think, because, we had a great time, but we, it was people, it was lovely to meet people. Everyone had a hug and everyone's taking selfies. So I think post covid, there's sort of real desire 

[00:02:02] Pia: Those hugs. Those hugs were amazing actually. It was great. So the, we got such a warm reception from people, and a genuine, real interest in teams that, that, you know, it's, it's, in changing circumstances and times. It, we, we saw a definite shift in the tide.

[00:02:20] Dan: Definitely And people are feeling like they need to, yeah, well do what we do, which is to connect with others to get things done. And so, um, yeah, that was wonderful. And Promisingly, um, in the US at least we found the economy buoyant as well. People seem to be optimistic. You know, in the last few years, really, to be honest, I think since 2008 you can hardly have a meeting without people saying they've had budget cuts. But seems people seem. There seems to be a, sort of an expansion agenda. It was really positive. 

[00:02:50] So, um, but at the heart of this trip was our, um, was the, I think was the, the feeling I've left with is about the relationships that we have around the world, which is wonderful and it is a little cue for our guest today, who is talking about contract management. So that's the world she's in, but surprisingly, this is actually about how humans connect to get stuff done together. So, um, it's Sally Guyer from an organization called World CC, she'll introduce herself fully, but let's go and hear this wonderful conversation now. 

[00:03:24] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Sally Guyer, welcome.

[00:03:28] Sally: Thank you Pia very much indeed. It's wonderful. Be with you today.

[00:03:31] Pia: Very exciting. We're really looking forward to hearing from you and, um, insights from World CC. It is though, um, always customary that we hand you over to Dan for, and I think you've been especially excited about this. So I shall hand, uh, hand you over. He, he will be kind, but 

[00:03:49] Dan: Yes. Well, actually I've, I've pre-select. I've not pre-selected. I, I just got ahead of myself and I've actually been shuffling and I've cut the pack. Um, Sally, welcome to the show, by the way. Um, and you, you, the gr it's a green card. Um, and it is the best film ever made. 

[00:04:06] Sally: Oh my God, that's such a difficult question 

[00:04:09] Dan: yeah, 

[00:04:10] Sally: it's so subjective,

[00:04:12] Dan: I agree. I agree. I think this is a, I think it's a harsh question in a way because films are so varied, aren't they? You want them for different things and different reasons and. 

[00:04:22] Sally: I mean, I have, I have to say that for, I mean, is it the best film ever made? I don't think so, but for me, one of the best films ever is Ferris Buhler's Day Off. I just absolutely love that movie. And I, I love the scene, the Twist and Shout scene. Um, it's just, it's just awesome. So it's certainly, I wouldn't classify it as the best film ever made, but it does go down in the annals of history for me.

[00:04:48] Dan: So what do you like about it? What does it say about you?

[00:04:51] Sally: I, so I remember being so keen. It was one of the, one of the movies that I really wanted my two sons to watch. I remember really wanting them to be old enough and we we're all goody two shoes in my family. You know, we all really obey the rules. So I guess, I guess one of the things I loved about it was, uh, you know, how defiant he was and, but, but in such a lovely and fun way. So, 

[00:05:17] Pia: A bit of the, the inner rebel.

[00:05:18] Sally: Yeah. I, the, the, the rebel that I don't really have in me.

[00:05:25] Dan: Well, let's, that's a really good, a really good one. Uh, but let's, let's sort of, let's, let's have, dive into that theme a little bit. Your goodie two shoes life. Um, give us a, give us a, um, um, a mini bio of, of Sally. What, where, what's, uh, what's brought you to this place today?

[00:05:40] Sally: Oh my goodness. Well, I, you know, I, I wish I'd known how, um, non-linear the path would be when I was at school. I mean, I, so I, I was absolutely determined to be a lawyer. That was my dream and my ambition. My father was a lawyer and I wanted to be like him, and so I went to university to study law and I went to law school to train to be a solicitor here in the UK and oh my goodness, I suddenly realized that it wasn't what I wanted to do.

[00:06:12] And I, I was left floundering. I didn't know what I was gonna do with myself. Um, and I, I'd been working for a telecoms company during my summer holidays at university and became actually, you know. talking about the human connection, made some really fabulous friendships. I was working on reception, so I was seeing people come and go all the time. And connected with so many people that I stayed in touch with. And I went out for a drink with them all one evening, um, and told them that, you know, I was deciding that law was not for me and I didn't know what I was gonna do, and they said, come and work for us. Come and work for us. And all of a sudden I was working in this department, which I sort of called the white elephant because it was a bit of everything. There was marketing, communications and pricing and, and contract management, all of the, um, contract negotiations. and uh, I, I, I fell into that role and loved it.

[00:07:13] Then. I had children, struggled to balance the corporate world and my, um, desire, uh, and, and obligation to be a mom as well. So I ended up setting up my own consultancy so I could be in charge of my own destiny. Uh, all the while I was a member of this wonderful association, which at the time, uh, was called IACCM, the International Association for Contract and Commercial Management. So, um, it was a, a long-winded title, but it was absolutely the right place for me to be involved.

[00:07:51] And I fell hook, line, and sinker for the work of the association. It was like reaching the top of a mountain and looking over at the scenery and going, Wow, so this is what it's all about. It was absolutely a phenomenal experience. And I'm also the chair of the board of an organization called the Open Contracting Partnership, and then hilariously much to my brothers' amusement, um, both of them, I was appointed a professor and practice at Durham University a couple of years ago, which just gives me an opportunity to inspire a new generation around the work that we do and the wonderful possibilities of working in the world of commerce and contracting.

[00:08:33] Pia: So let's take a step back. What is commercial and contract management? Like, let, let's, let's just name, name what this is and what the value is and what it's there to do. So, why is it so important?

[00:08:46] Sally: Well, that's such a wonderful question and it is so varied, and honestly, it depends, you know, you could put 10 people in a room and ask them to define contract management commercial, um, and you get 50 different answers because it, it, it is, uh, a melting pot. But let me, let me try and explain from a, from a slightly different perspective.

[00:09:07] So back in 2016, two incredible professors called Oliver Hart and Bent Holmstrom won the Nobel Prize for economic Science. And their work was on the theory of incomplete contracts. The award committee, when they put the press release out about these two, uh, individuals, they said the world is made up of innumerable contracts.

[00:09:39] And that was a really, really profound statement for me. And it, it, I think it's so true. You know, contracts are the lifeblood of any business. You, you know, businesses are valued on the back of the trading relationships, the contracts that they have in place. And we rely so heavily on contracts in, in everything we do, whether it's employment agreements, whether it's the supplier agreements that we have to enter, enter into, it's the agreements with our clients. You know, it's, and, and the list goes on and on and on. So, contracts being that lifeblood means that they need to be structured, created, supported, nurtured, um, in order to, to deliver the outcomes that are needed.

[00:10:33] And that, and that's what World Commerce and Contracting as we are called now, is really focused on. So our vision as an association, that is a world where all trading relationships deliver social and economic benefit. And in terms of what our members do, well, it, it's multifaceted because when you think about contracting, you've got, um, contracting on the buy side. So you know those who procure, procurement, um, and, and then the management of that through supply chains. And then you've got contracting on the sell side. And you've got both pre-award and post-award.

[00:11:11] And so the uniqueness of, of what we do is that we look at contracting holistically. We represent a membership that works on the buy side and the sell side in pre-award and in post-award. And as I say, these contracts represent the lifeblood of, of business and society. 

[00:11:29] Dan: it's a very clear vision and purpose. And Sally, I know you, you're, you're really passionate about that. What's wrong with contracts now?

[00:11:37] Sally: Oh, they don't work? 

[00:11:38] Pia: small, little problem. Just small. 

[00:11:42] Dan: But apart from that, apart from that, what's wrong?

[00:11:45] Sally: So I often say, um, when I'm speaking about what we do and how we talk about, I talk about we are trying as an association, we're trying to make the world a better place, one contract at a time. So what's wrong with them? What do we do? Well, unfortunately what we do is we typically contract for the divorce, not for the marriage.

[00:12:06] So what do I mean by that? We spend our lives negotiating terms and conditions that will matter when everything goes wrong. So our research, uh, as an association, we undertake a, a enormous amount of research, and our research tells us that we spend all of our time negotiating warranties indemnities, limitation of liability. Limitation of liability is the number one negotiated term and it, we do this research every other year and for, for over 10 years now. That's what the data tells us. So, what is it that we are fixated on? And it comes back to that wonderful Nobel Prize. Um. and the concept of incomplete contracts.

[00:12:49] But what we've tried to do with contracts is use them to drive certainty in an environment that is necessarily uncertain. You know, we, just look back at the last five years and, and what we've, the geopolitical on, uh, instability that, that exists. The, obviously the pandemic, uh, and the pandemic was a classic example where, uh, you know, back in sort of February, March, 2020, everybody was panicking. Everybody was rushing to. They find their contracts, by the way, if they, you know, they weren't, they sitting in filing cabinet somewhere. And if they find their contracts, they were sort of leafing through them, typically looking for the, for the force majeure clause and you know, how, how they could potentially extract themselves from whatever obligation they were in. But then very quickly realized that actually that was not relevant, um, not what people needed, what not, what organizations needed to do.

[00:13:44] And, and what we discovered was that contracts were just completely vacuous. They were not. For purpose. Purpose in the context of navigating the crisis, the uncertainty, the chaos that was unfolding around us as a result of the pandemic. So what happened? Everybody put the contracts back in the proverbial drawer, and relied on the relationship. But that relationship is necessarily fragile because you rely on individuals. There's no structural discipline or governance around that relationship. So, you know, if you get on with everybody, the three of us get on wonderfully, and that's fantastic. And we could navigate a crisis together, I have no doubt. Um, but that wasn't the case for everyone of course.

[00:14:31] So what, and that's the concept of the, of the incompleteness. You know, we've got to stop trying to use contracts to drive certainty in an environment of uncertainty. What we need to do is start using contracts to help us to provide a scaffolding for the relationship, to help us to navigate those unknown unknowns as they happen, to be more disciplined about governance and, and obviously to ensure that what we're doing is setting up contracts for success.

[00:15:05] We need to be negotiating the terms that will help us to drive the outcomes that we desire. Contracts are first and foremost economic instruments, but they've been tagged and treated as, as legal weapons, this kind of sword and shield, and that's what's wrong with contracts.

[00:15:27] Dan: So not, not much really.

[00:15:28] Sally: No.

[00:15:30] Dan: So what's the remedy? Obviously, as you say, we, we we're all in this complex world now. I like that drive certainty in a world that is uncertain. And, um, I definitely get that. how do you contract in this, in this world?

[00:15:45] Sally: Well, I think it's really important to recognize that, um, you know, not all contracts are equal. And of course where you're buying commodities, where you're buying mugs, for example, or, you know, you're selling widgets, it, it, it's necessarily more transactional. Um, you might not need a relationship in that context. And of course, technology is advancing such that we're automating a lot of these things and, and rightly so. That that's really important

[00:16:14] . But we also know that our world now is dominated by services and the provision of services. And we, you know, understand this concept of servitization, you know, um, products are being servitized, and so in a, in a world that is increasingly dominated by the provision of services, the implication is that that's a longer term arrangement. That this is not a spot trade. This is something that is going to continue over a period of time, and on that basis, relationships become far more important. Because you are going to be relating to one another over this longer period of time.

[00:16:57] So, and, and where you've got the time continuum, you are necessarily introducing uncertainty because the three of us have no idea what's gonna happen tomorrow. Again, I remind everybody of what, what's happened over the last five years. Our world is, is a crazy, chaotic, uncertain place at the moment. And on that basis, when you are in a long term agreement, a long term arrangement, a services based arrangement, the relationship becomes really important. But as I said to you before, there's fragility around those relationships. If there's no structure or governance put around the, those principles.

[00:17:38] So, you know, we talk about the concept of relational contracting. And there are a lot of things that matter in that context. Things like, um, creating a no blame culture, um, having a problem solving mindset, um, being very deliberate, about communication and effective communication. Uh, it's about understanding mutual obligations. So there are these principles of relational contracting, which are fundamental to providing that structure and that governance and supporting sort of a sense of certainty in the context of navigating inevitable uncertainty. 

[00:18:24] Pia: So what's your recommendations about how to optimally provide the right environment for a contractor to thrive? You know, how to bring these relationships together Is, is there sort of like a, pre-phase that happens to the contract being delivered or being written up or being, or what happens? 

[00:18:45] Sally: Yeah, I, I think, you know, the traditionally, and typically we, as, as I've said, you know, we enter into these, um, painful negotiations which don't set up the relationship for success at all. Um, leave people feeling, um, very unfulfilled and unsatisfied at the point of contract signature. Um, and then again, typically what happens is we have this environment where, you know, everybody celebrates because a contract has finally been signed. Everybody's exhausted with the process, um, and contracts signed and everybody goes, yay, we're done. That's it. Except that, that's just the beginning. Um, and there's very little, very little effort placed in that sort of post-award management, um, environment. So, that, that's what's typical.

[00:19:34] What, what's good practice, um, is if you know that you are going to be needing and, and having to support a long-term relationship, it is setting it up for, for success at the very outset, it is understanding those governance principles and, and what's going to matter, what's really important, you know. And so much of it is about behaviors, you know, creating a no blame culture about instilling the right behaviors in all of the individuals and organizations that are involved in creating the outcome. It's also about keeping that outcome in mind. You know, too often we're, we're so fixated on the here and now and what levels of liability I'm going to be able to impose on the other side that, that we forget about the outcomes that we're trying to achieve. So creating that outcome focus as well is really important.

[00:20:28] And, and then I would say another element where we advocate hugely is around this concept of contract design and simplification. Um, what do I mean by that? I mean, using plain language, you know, getting rid of all of this complex legalese that, that has traditionally dominated our contracts. And actually, you know, putting a a, a user based design focus around contracting, which can be completely transformational.

[00:21:00] I mean, one of the extreme stories that, that I love to share is, uh this, uh, organization in South Africa, uh, they produce orange juice and, uh, they have orange groves and they employ numerous individuals in South Africa to pick oranges on the farms. Now, they had huge challenges with, um, productivity and, and staff absence and, uh, just gen general, um, malaise, uh, amongst that, uh, amongst those fruit pickers. And one of the things that they realized was that many of these farm workers, uh, are, are women and many of them were, illiterate or semi-literate at best. But they were forcing them to sign employment agreements, you know, pages and pages of text that they didn't understand. They didn't know what they were signing up for. Uh, and you know, and we do that every day, don't we, when we click accept on terms and conditions and we've got no idea what we're doing. Um, uh, but you know, these, so these, these individuals were, were clueless about what their obligations were, what time they needed to turn up. Um, you know, how they, how what, what they had to do if they needed to report in sick and all of that sort of, all of those, practical logistics, if you like.

[00:22:24] So the organization decided to completely transform the way that they engaged with these farm workers and ultimately produced working with this wonderful lawyer in South Africa, a guy called Robert Deroy, and they produced, uh, what we at the time believed to be the world's first comic contract. And it was completely visual. and it was honestly transformational. And it, it absolutely, it changed, um, it changed the relationship that these farm workers had with the organization they worked for. It changed the levels of productivity. It, it, it was incredible.

[00:22:59] But one of the most profound things, and, and I guess it was just, well, unexpected, but to be expected was the way that these women felt as a result of being given this comic contract, um, they felt respected. They felt dignified. And it was extraordinary. They felt valued as human beings because the organization had met them where they could communicate.

[00:23:31] We talk about contracts being what we call boundary objects, which means, you know, they have to be able to, to cross those different boundaries that, but effectively cross them. And that for me just demonstrates a, the critical importance. You know, modern economies are held together by innumerable contracts. And those contracts impact people, like those incredible women working on that farm. And they can be a huge force for good and for dignity and for respect.

[00:24:07] Dan: That, that's just a wonderful story, Sally. It's, it's, and I love those, those words you've used, they felt respected, valued, and dignified. I mean, this, this is a human outcome, isn't it? That can be achieved through doing this thing in the right way. And um, you do similar work to what we do actually, we saw all about the human connection. What does this look like in your work though?

[00:24:28] Sally: Yeah. Uh, another interesting question, and it, and it's, uh, it looks different depending on, you know, who you're working with. And we talked about, uh, organizations that would deliberately identify the need for a relational approach and would, would, you know, set it up for success at the very outset. That's a rare occurrence, to be honest with you. Typically our experience is that we're brought in when the relationship is floundering. And so, We come in, we do a diagnostic, we assess the, the, the current state of play, we look at and uncover the things that matter, um, to each organization and, and we run workshops with, with everyone.

[00:25:15] You know, it, it's. It, it's so important in this context to remember that this is not just about the senior executives in organizations, you know, coming together and having a pow wow and then going off and playing golf or something. You know, this is about everybody who is involved in the delivery of the outcome. And again, I've sort of, you know, wonderful little anecdote, uh, of a relational workshop that we ran, or a series of relational workshops that we ran with the Department of Defense in Australia. Um, actually they won an innovation and excellence award, um, from World CC for this work. And, you know, such was the extent of the involvement of all the parties. And there were, there were more than one. In this context. It was all about the Australian frigates and the fact that, you know, there were more sitting in maintenance than there were out on the sea. And this had been, you know, raised at, um, the highest political levels. It was a, it was a major. major issue, some may say scandal. Uh, and so they needed to, they needed to fix this. And, and so they ran relational workshops and, and achieved incredible outcomes as a result.

[00:26:29] Uh, one individual who was fairly skeptical at the very beginning because his job is to paint the ship's gray. And he, he wasn't really sure why he was involved in these workshops, but you know, the Department of Defense was determined to make sure that everybody was involved because everybody contributes to the outcome, which is getting those ships back out to sea in a seaworthy um, manner. And by the time the relational workshop process had had concluded, he turned around and said, I see, I get it. I no longer paint ships gray. I protect the shores of Australia.

[00:27:04] that tells you, you know, again, it's, it's, it's the outcome. That, that is what being outcome focused means that you understand as a human being, your role, your critical role in the delivery of an outcome, whatever that might be. Whether it's, you know, it, it might be painting ships gray, but ultimately you are a huge contributor to the delivery of an outcome which is seaworthy frigates out on the shores, around the shores of Australia.

[00:27:38] Pia: It's a little bit like the outcome that the person that you are working with is so different to the person they hand you over to, to start negotiating the contract. It's like, you go from day to night and you've had this lovely relationship where you've really built trust with the person that is essentially procuring your services, but then you go to the bulldog mastiff who, then you, then you know, you, you have this experience of, what, where you, it's almost like you have to survive it, and you have to go back a few steps before you go forward.

[00:28:15] And, and I, I wondered whether it's, people, certainly inside corporations are just goaled differently. Like some, some are golded to win contracts and others are goaled to, you know, politely screw certain aspects of you in order to make sure that you've got it as cheaply or as effectively as possible. But it's a really unpleasant experience.

[00:28:40] Sally: Uh, that is so right, Pia, and, and it's so, it's such a common experience, unfortunately. And, you know, we, we, we, again, we talk about the sort of the, what is the purpose of a contract, and it, it's, it's multifaceted and of course it depends who you ask. But one of the. Purposes that we list of a contract is to represent the brand values of an organization. And exactly to your point that, you know, typically you have all of this sort of marketing material and, you know, a, a sales process, uh, in, in this context you can talk about it from that side. All of these glossy documents, all of these sort of wonderful commitments that are, that are made in this sort of fluffy way, and then you get to the contract and it says exactly the opposite. All of those sort of promises that have been made in, in building up that relationship suddenly have just gone out the window. And so trust is completely eroded. And it's, a very dissatisfying and yeah, disappointing experience for people.

[00:29:49] Dan: So right. And I think the thing that I've, that destroys trust that I've seen as a specific example of that is when, we get big contracts put in front of us when we work with large enterprises, and some of them are wonderful. I have to say, a lot of the people we've worked with in procurement have been brilliantly collaborative. I think they must be World CC members because they, they've been, they've been really great. Um, but you do see these at the other end of the spectrum. As Pia said, you sort of, you've got a business thing and you thinking about your, uh, divorce, not marriage. You start to sort of, in a business sense, sort of feel the, fall in love with someone, and then when you decide to sort of, right, let's make this permanent, you've got you, you talk to these people and the first thing they do is actually, their terms in that contract are clearly extreme and ridiculous. And you then have to fight your way all the way back to something reasonable that they know is gonna happen because it's, it's cl you know. I'll give you a specific example.

[00:30:40] We've seen twice these term, which says, you know, when you sign this contract, everything, all of our intellectual property will be in perpetuity signed over, signed over. Hold on a second. No, you, you're, no, uh uh. No. Now, you know, this is a way you trust is gone At that point. It, it's, and you're, but you are also into this false conversation of we know we're not gonna end up there, so we're now gonna waste time

[00:31:06] Pia: I dunno why people put that into their contracts, because I just don't, I mean, no one is going to, unless they don't read the contract and you just sign it without actually paying any attention to it. But I dunno whether it's done there to just test that you've read the contract.

[00:31:20] Dan: It, it seemed that way. like you like doing your homework. yeah, and I think that's a specific example of, as you say, Sally, where trust is quickly, uh, can be quickly destroyed and is not aligned to the brand values and certainly the person that you are working with but is horrified by, by the fact that it's popped up suddenly, yeah.

[00:31:38] Sally: uh, I think that's right and, and you know, Pia, picking up on your point as well, which is so right, it's, it's all about measurement and incentive. And, you know, I, the, the number of conversations I've had with CEOs who bemoan their contracting process, but, you know, have to take a, a long, hard look at, at the, the way that different teams across their organizations are incentivized and measured. And yeah, sure. If you are gonna, if you're gonna be measured on how close to the corporate template, uh, you, you get to in every negotiation. then you're gonna be a bulldog masif in terms of the, your approach to negotiations. Um, and of course if you incentivized, measured on savings, then that's going to be your approach in, that negotiation. And, and, and in putting together that contract.

[00:32:34] But unfortunately, all of those things whilst, um, you know, inevitably I'm sure well-meaning, create all of these horrible, unintended consequences for the relationship.

[00:32:48] Dan: Yeah. So s Sally, you spend, you've just, uh, you spend your time and energy, uh, uh, and a huge amount of commitment working at this interface, it seems between the, the commercial and the relationship and the, the human and the financial. And it's just that pinch point actually, that is the hardest part of a lot of people's jobs. I think. So, and you've been doing this for many years. What's your.

[00:33:12] Sally: I know I'm mad.

[00:33:13] Dan: yeah, you're mad. Exactly. I, trying to avoid saying that, but who would do this? Well, I suppose, well, maybe, maybe that's a very positive, uh, side of being a goodie two shoes that you, you really are trying to do some good. Um, but, um, but no, it's, it's joking aside, obviously it's, it's a. Friction point potentially, but obviously has some huge, um, huge upsides. Um, but what, from all you've seen, what's a, what's a key thing you could leave us with if people are either working in this world or more generally trying to sort of collaborate whether a potentially, you know's, complexity and different demands? What's your, what could you leave our listener with?

[00:33:54] Sally: Yeah. So I think one of the things that is just so important is remembering that relationships are critical in our world. And one of the things that we often talk about in our relational workshops is our failure to apply the integrity of our personal relationships and the, um, behaviors and the, the qualities that we look for in personal relationships, we don't apply in a business perspective. And I don't know why. You know, that astounds me, frankly.

[00:34:29] And so, what would I leave people with? The, the, the human side. We are all humans. And the human side is so important, so being human and being our authentic selves, whether it's in our personal relationships or our professional relationships, I would argue will get you a long way in life. 

[00:34:51] Dan: Being human, I've written down here. So it's a, it's a, it's a lovely thing and I have to say, it's a, it's a thing we strive for and, uh, it'll be a wonderful thing and it's, you are on a real mission to, to bring that humanity to these, to these sort of co, yeah, complex situations. 

[00:35:05] So Sally, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's been, uh, it's been absolutely wonderful and you've, you've taken us around the world and, uh, through this. Complex, uh, uh, these, these amazing things you get up to. So thank you so much for your time today and best of luck with everything you do at World CC.

[00:35:23] Sally: Thank you. Thank you for letting me share, share my stories. It's been really lovely. 

[00:35:30] Pia: That was a good question that you asked there, Hammond, when you asked her about, you know, what, what can, what can go wrong in terms of contractual arrangements? And I really liked her answers that, you know, many contracts are designed for divorce, not marriage. It's, it's a sort of, um, was it a rear guard action or 

[00:35:49] Dan: Yes. Almost like a

[00:35:51] Pia: or even aggressive action.

[00:35:53] Dan: Yes. absolutely. So, so actually, so interesting. That is, it's all about the downside, what might go wrong. And you know, when you study decision making, you've got these different mindsets, haven't you Minimize regret, maximize outcomes? It's definitely a minimized regret, um, thing, and, and as you said, I was really glad you raised that because you have this, you have a relationship, a business relationship, and then you think, right, let's, let's actually make this financial, let's do this, let's work together, which is gonna be really exciting. Then you introduce this bulldog Mastiff person who actually has a totally different view on things and they're coming at it from totally different angle. Now it, I think it's worth saying and worth respecting that person's view, which is yet they have to protect the organization from

[00:36:38] Pia: I can see what they have to do.

[00:36:39] Dan: That of course. But actually what they can do is destroy the upside and you end up with these really cut and dried relationships that are just built for, as you said, I love that, built for the divorce, not the marriage, just, um, and it goes, goes for a lot of relationships, I think.

[00:36:55] Pia: Swords and shields, you know, that, that, that's how she described it, you know, which is, and so, you know, ultimately I think what she talked about was if you get the right higher intent, it's almost like you've got to establish that, you know, which is, I guess you create a contract of what, what do you want to deliver within the con? What's the outcome? That's what she talked about. What's the outcome that you wanna create, and then what's your role in that? And then there's, there's going to be parameters within that and they have to be negotiated. You can't, you can't have, can't steamroll her in and just make it either a, a, a badly constructed contract or leaning towards outcomes that are self-serving. That's not, that's not, neither of those would work. But if you've got that common goal, that's really important. 

[00:37:41] Dan: Absolutely. And I love that, yeah, that we can add, you know, that, that point about the protecting the shores of Australia, that sort of purpose of what we're here to do. Reminding people you, you know, you don't paint the thing gray. Now and it's great to actually hear from somebody who's heard this in the flesh, 'cause you know, there is apocryphal stories about the Masons, oh I helps, I'm helping Christopher Wren to build the greatest cathedral in Europe, or I'm putting a man on the moon. You know, sort of the, but that's a genuine example of someone really grabbing the purpose.

[00:38:10] And I think that point about being human that she left us with, I think that, that, that's very close to my heart actually. And I think it made me reflect that, you know, when, when we're in, in business, yes there's business, but it stresses me, I think when people aren't acting as humans, and that they hide behind numbers and contracts and they suddenly, because they're in a, in a business that they dehumanize. And it's obviously a way of, as we know, it's a path towards not having to be empathetic to the other side. So, uh, it's, it's a, it's a powerful point to remember that we're humans, it work.

[00:38:46] And I have to say, coming back to the top of the show, it may be just me getting into an emotional codger, but, um, I think that there's a lot more of that now. I'm feel, I feel we really felt the love on our trip and we felt like humans. And, um, I, I think there's a lot more empathy in the business world now, and, which is a, which is a positive sign. So, but it's, it's a, it is a great thing for us to, for her to leave us with, I think. 

[00:39:09] Pia: The A thing I would be interested in, and I do not know what the, this, this would be going to ask the listeners 'cause I don't know, I dunno the answer to this. I wonder if there's a proportion of higher divorce amongst couples who've got prenups. Because you are going into an emotional relationship in a quite a sort of almost disassociated, you're almost planning for the outcomes of a divorce before you've even started.

[00:39:35] Dan: I mean, apart from anything else, you are, you are preconditioning yourself, aren't you? And framing that outcome. So, um, yeah, look, I'm, I'm sure it'd be tricky day to get hold of. I imagine where 

[00:39:46] Pia: be But if anyone 

[00:39:47] Dan: it's in a, yeah, if anyone has some, anything to shed light on, nice hypothesis there, Pia. And on that note, we will leave you. That is it for this episode. You can find show notes. Uh, where you are listening and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, you can do so. Just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:40:16] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.