WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.149 --> 00:00:04.409 Joe: In early November, I ruffled some feathers. 00:00:04.979 --> 00:00:07.739 I made a couple of posts about. 00:00:08.429 --> 00:00:12.179 AI and how it should and should not be used. 00:00:12.899 --> 00:00:17.459 The first one was me saying that telling AI to act like a 00:00:17.459 --> 00:00:19.979 doctor makes it as much a doctor. 00:00:20.339 --> 00:00:21.479 As selling George Clooney. 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:23.219 To act like a doctor. 00:00:23.759 --> 00:00:25.559 But the second post. 00:00:26.129 --> 00:00:27.479 The second post. 00:00:27.779 --> 00:00:30.329 Really got under a lot of people's skin. 00:00:30.779 --> 00:00:34.409 Where I said, using AI to write your book. 00:00:34.829 --> 00:00:36.149 Is like using a car. 00:00:36.659 --> 00:00:37.769 To run a marathon. 00:00:38.909 --> 00:00:43.619 Now I'll admit that maybe that's not a perfect analogy. 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:48.359 But one of the people who I got in the spirited debate with was 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:52.409 my good friend, Alistair McDermott over at the recognized authority. 00:00:53.009 --> 00:00:58.589 And he suggested we act like true podcasters in gentlemen. 00:00:59.099 --> 00:01:00.959 And get on an episode. 00:01:01.409 --> 00:01:02.369 And have a debate. 00:01:03.419 --> 00:01:06.629 And so we recorded it on his channel over on his live stream. 00:01:07.079 --> 00:01:09.659 And he provided me with the audio. 00:01:09.929 --> 00:01:15.209 So in this very special bonus episode of how I built it, I'm going to give 00:01:15.209 --> 00:01:19.499 you the debate that Allister and I had, I think it's really good. 00:01:20.039 --> 00:01:23.399 Uh, I don't want to spoil anything, but there are points where we 00:01:23.399 --> 00:01:28.979 fully agree and points where we agree to disagree as we continue. 00:01:29.309 --> 00:01:37.109 To hash out and fully bake our thoughts on this very new landscape. 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.259 For business owners and creators. 00:01:40.259 --> 00:01:44.459 So I hope you enjoy this episode. 00:01:45.149 --> 00:01:47.309 This bonus episode, this debate. 00:01:47.609 --> 00:01:50.159 Between me and Allister McDermott. 00:01:50.999 --> 00:01:52.949 Let's get into the intro. 00:01:53.369 --> 00:01:54.389 And then the debate. 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.589 Hey everybody, and welcome to How I Built It, the podcast where you get free 00:02:02.059 --> 00:02:04.139 coaching calls from successful creators. 00:02:04.529 --> 00:02:09.299 Each week you get actionable advice on how you can build a better creator 00:02:09.299 --> 00:02:14.609 business to increase revenue and establish yourself as an authority in your field. 00:02:15.149 --> 00:02:17.379 I'm your host, Joe Casabona. 00:02:17.459 --> 00:02:18.599 Now let's get to it. 00:02:20.529 --> 00:02:22.559 Alastair: Hello and welcome to the recognized authority. 00:02:22.579 --> 00:02:25.449 I'm Alistair McDermott and my guest is Joe Casabona. 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:30.679 Today, we are going to discuss can and should we use AI to write for us? 00:02:30.699 --> 00:02:31.419 Welcome, Joe. 00:02:32.429 --> 00:02:34.089 Joe: Thanks for having me, Alistair. 00:02:34.089 --> 00:02:34.789 I'm excited to 00:02:34.789 --> 00:02:35.569 Alastair: talk about this. 00:02:36.294 --> 00:02:39.324 Joe, you are somebody who's been on the show before you were 00:02:39.334 --> 00:02:42.164 on, I think it was episode 36. 00:02:42.194 --> 00:02:42.444 Yeah. 00:02:42.444 --> 00:02:45.134 Episode 36 back in October of 2021. 00:02:45.204 --> 00:02:48.094 So two years later, uh, we're here again chatting. 00:02:48.544 --> 00:02:51.744 And so you have ruffled some feathers with what you've been saying about AI 00:02:52.324 --> 00:02:56.044 on LinkedIn and people are blocking you and stuff like that because you're, 00:02:56.044 --> 00:02:57.604 uh, you're really poking poking folks. 00:02:57.604 --> 00:03:01.134 So can you tell me a little bit about what you said about AI and let's get into it. 00:03:01.609 --> 00:03:02.119 Joe: Yeah. 00:03:02.119 --> 00:03:07.929 So this was, so the impetus for this chat was actually, uh, the second apparently 00:03:07.939 --> 00:03:10.249 inflammatory post I've made about AI. 00:03:10.929 --> 00:03:12.459 Uh, the first one. 00:03:13.254 --> 00:03:21.274 Was, um, telling AI to act like a doctor with 20 years experience makes it a 00:03:21.274 --> 00:03:26.354 doctor as much as telling George Clooney to act like a doctor makes him a doctor. 00:03:26.794 --> 00:03:28.694 People got real mad at that. 00:03:29.094 --> 00:03:34.244 Um, and so I decided to follow it up with, I saw a post somewhere in some community. 00:03:34.714 --> 00:03:39.244 about how this person was writing 25, 000 words a month using AI. 00:03:39.264 --> 00:03:42.574 And I'm like, well, that means you're not writing 25, 000 words a month. 00:03:43.104 --> 00:03:44.954 AI is writing some of those words. 00:03:44.954 --> 00:03:51.234 And so I posted across social media saying I used AI to write my book or I use AI to 00:03:51.234 --> 00:03:53.519 write a blog post a day is like saying. 00:03:53.809 --> 00:03:58.879 I used my car to run a marathon, and a lot of people, uh, got mad that you and 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.179 I had a spirited debate on that post. 00:04:02.699 --> 00:04:03.489 Alastair: We certainly did. 00:04:03.699 --> 00:04:08.389 I think that the analogy is not perfect, like all analogies, but there is some 00:04:08.389 --> 00:04:09.409 truth to what you're saying as well. 00:04:09.429 --> 00:04:12.019 So that's why I wanted to get you on the show and to just chat about it, 00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:13.719 rather than just blocking you, you know? 00:04:13.934 --> 00:04:14.944 Joe: Yeah, absolutely. 00:04:15.264 --> 00:04:15.594 Right. 00:04:15.714 --> 00:04:16.034 Reason. 00:04:16.234 --> 00:04:18.384 I'm all about reasonable discourse. 00:04:18.424 --> 00:04:23.734 And so when someone is being unreasonable, I, I no longer go for it. 00:04:23.744 --> 00:04:29.684 So the, the, in, in one case, this person just liked to hear themselves talk. 00:04:30.384 --> 00:04:33.484 And so I would say something and then they would say something and 00:04:33.484 --> 00:04:36.014 then I would respond and then they would respond with a non sequitur. 00:04:36.354 --> 00:04:38.364 And I'm like, well, you're not worth arguing with. 00:04:39.049 --> 00:04:41.619 Because you are not, we're not arguing, right? 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:43.179 Or we're not debating, whatever you want to say. 00:04:43.709 --> 00:04:47.659 Uh, but yeah, you and I point counterpoint, right? 00:04:47.869 --> 00:04:49.069 Reasonable discourse. 00:04:49.579 --> 00:04:52.149 Alastair: Well, of course, as podcasters, you know, we, we do 00:04:52.149 --> 00:04:53.349 like to talk a little bit as well. 00:04:53.869 --> 00:04:54.279 Joe: Yes. 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:55.579 I won't, I won't deny that. 00:04:55.579 --> 00:04:59.389 I like hearing myself talk, but usually I like hearing myself talk about 00:05:00.009 --> 00:05:02.159 whatever is relevant in the conversation. 00:05:03.149 --> 00:05:04.579 Alastair: So let's talk about this then. 00:05:05.139 --> 00:05:05.949 Um, all right. 00:05:06.449 --> 00:05:09.009 So let's talk about the first one, right? 00:05:09.019 --> 00:05:10.399 I'm using AI to write my book. 00:05:10.869 --> 00:05:12.879 Or I'm using AI to write a blog post a day. 00:05:13.179 --> 00:05:13.699 Yeah. 00:05:13.999 --> 00:05:15.659 And you're saying that's like I'm using my car to write a 00:05:15.659 --> 00:05:16.699 marathon, to run a marathon. 00:05:17.009 --> 00:05:22.279 But, so the issue for me is, well, you can be using AI to help write something 00:05:22.719 --> 00:05:26.849 and it not be like getting in your car at the start of a marathon and 00:05:26.869 --> 00:05:28.559 just driving to the end line, right? 00:05:28.944 --> 00:05:30.604 You can actually use it in a way. 00:05:30.804 --> 00:05:35.354 And so when you dig into the nuance, you, you, you really do need to dig in to 00:05:35.354 --> 00:05:39.334 figure out how they're actually using it because it's possible to write something. 00:05:39.604 --> 00:05:42.724 I mean, you can't like, you can just give chat GPT a bunch of 00:05:42.724 --> 00:05:44.494 prompts and have it spit back out. 00:05:45.489 --> 00:05:49.409 An extremely mediocre, almost by definition, mediocre, because it's kind 00:05:49.409 --> 00:05:52.829 of the average of all of the information that it's learned is what it's outputting. 00:05:53.409 --> 00:05:59.189 So, but yeah, and I think that most people who are using it to create content. 00:06:00.449 --> 00:06:03.069 I would like to say aren't using it that way or definitely 00:06:03.069 --> 00:06:04.249 shouldn't use it that way, 00:06:04.499 --> 00:06:04.769 Joe: right? 00:06:05.249 --> 00:06:07.459 Yeah, so this is where I think we're in agreement. 00:06:07.459 --> 00:06:10.749 And yes, my so this makes my post ambiguous, right? 00:06:10.749 --> 00:06:17.119 Because, um, I envision, I've like the example I told 00:06:17.119 --> 00:06:17.929 you where someone was right. 00:06:17.929 --> 00:06:23.479 I'm writing 25, 000 words a day, a week or a month, whatever with with AI. 00:06:23.949 --> 00:06:26.969 I've also talked to people who are like, Oh, yeah, I've used AI to 00:06:26.969 --> 00:06:28.569 write full chapters of my book. 00:06:28.974 --> 00:06:32.424 And I'm like, you didn't write the book then, like you didn't write that chapter. 00:06:32.604 --> 00:06:34.784 If those are not your words, you didn't write it. 00:06:34.794 --> 00:06:40.674 And so like, if you use your car to drive to where the marathon is happening, 00:06:40.684 --> 00:06:46.634 and then you run the 26 miles, no argue, no bones about that, right? 00:06:47.034 --> 00:06:48.044 Absolutely. 00:06:48.134 --> 00:06:49.484 Definitely use your car. 00:06:50.044 --> 00:06:53.254 Uh, unless you're like a maniac who like runs to the marathon 00:06:53.254 --> 00:06:54.674 and then runs the marathon. 00:06:55.184 --> 00:06:59.684 I know people like that, but let's say most of us are normal human beings. 00:07:00.104 --> 00:07:04.524 You're going to drive yourself to the starting line, right? 00:07:04.604 --> 00:07:11.674 Just like use AI for research, ideation, outlining, maybe, maybe 00:07:11.794 --> 00:07:14.724 giving you a jump off point. 00:07:15.474 --> 00:07:16.754 Those are fine, right? 00:07:16.774 --> 00:07:19.564 Because then you're going to take that raw material. 00:07:20.289 --> 00:07:25.159 And turn it into your words and your book and I don't have a problem. 00:07:25.169 --> 00:07:25.999 I do that. 00:07:27.389 --> 00:07:28.049 I do that. 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:30.079 So I don't have a problem with that per se, 00:07:31.329 --> 00:07:31.709 Alastair: right? 00:07:31.779 --> 00:07:36.779 So the issue for me is if, if, if somebody is saying that they're 00:07:36.779 --> 00:07:39.969 refusing to use AI to help with the process of content creation. 00:07:40.704 --> 00:07:44.574 I think that as a content creator, that is like an accountant saying, Oh, I 00:07:44.584 --> 00:07:46.574 don't use spreadsheets or calculators. 00:07:46.994 --> 00:07:51.964 You know, I think you're absolutely nuts not to use AI, uh, because of how 00:07:51.964 --> 00:07:53.544 much that it can help and support us. 00:07:53.894 --> 00:07:57.874 And the way that I feel about it is it can make somebody who is 00:07:57.874 --> 00:07:59.514 good at producing good content. 00:07:59.894 --> 00:08:02.524 It can make them much more effective and efficient. 00:08:02.744 --> 00:08:06.984 at creating good content and maybe even raise the quality of that 00:08:06.984 --> 00:08:10.874 good content up a notch because it's able to do things much faster. 00:08:11.064 --> 00:08:14.964 Like some of the stuff that some of us might see as BS, like spelling 00:08:14.964 --> 00:08:17.414 and grammar and things like that, they need to be done right. 00:08:17.714 --> 00:08:21.614 But, you know, we don't like to be, you know, going around fixing that kind of 00:08:21.624 --> 00:08:24.434 stuff when we could be writing a new chapter or coming up with new ideas. 00:08:24.884 --> 00:08:27.594 So that's where it is for me is like, I think you're nuts if 00:08:27.594 --> 00:08:28.304 you're not using it for that. 00:08:29.294 --> 00:08:31.224 Joe: Yeah, agree wholeheartedly, right? 00:08:31.284 --> 00:08:33.214 I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. 00:08:33.224 --> 00:08:37.334 In fact, um, I have a course on LinkedIn Learning called 00:08:37.344 --> 00:08:39.294 Generative AI for Podcasters. 00:08:39.964 --> 00:08:44.854 And I talk about everything that you can use generative AI for. 00:08:45.164 --> 00:08:49.534 One of those things is creating a listener avatar for your show. 00:08:50.214 --> 00:08:54.294 And let me tell you, I did this for my show to see what it would come up with. 00:08:55.384 --> 00:08:59.964 And if I didn't know AI generated it, I would have thought they 00:08:59.964 --> 00:09:02.144 were describing a real person. 00:09:03.044 --> 00:09:08.234 Uh, and so that gives me clarity for who I'm talking to, especially 00:09:08.294 --> 00:09:09.364 in the beginning, right? 00:09:09.364 --> 00:09:13.024 If I don't have an audience, I need somebody to talk to 00:09:13.604 --> 00:09:15.244 until I build that audience. 00:09:15.244 --> 00:09:17.914 And so, I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. 00:09:18.394 --> 00:09:21.394 I used AI this morning to write a press release. 00:09:21.424 --> 00:09:24.404 'cause I don't think I can write press releases and they, I don't know, 00:09:24.404 --> 00:09:28.694 maybe they're just more factual than blog posts and then like, I'm having 00:09:28.699 --> 00:09:33.914 a friend punch it up for me to make it not sound like ai, but I don't, I 00:09:33.914 --> 00:09:36.674 wouldn't say I wrote that press release. 00:09:36.764 --> 00:09:37.064 Right. 00:09:37.069 --> 00:09:39.434 I would say I used AI to write a press release. 00:09:40.914 --> 00:09:43.014 Alastair: You see, now we're getting into semantics and Yeah. 00:09:43.014 --> 00:09:46.644 The, the , that's, that's, I I, I hate when these arguments get into semantic. 00:09:47.249 --> 00:09:50.079 Now, I think when I see AI creating stuff like, and I'm going to 00:09:50.079 --> 00:09:52.209 read something that AI wrote. 00:09:52.429 --> 00:09:57.239 So are you ready to unlock the clandestine power of AI and delve into a realm of 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:00.869 endless possibilities in the modern digital landscape, staying ahead as 00:10:00.869 --> 00:10:06.509 the new normal, unlock the secrets of, I think that that is such BS. 00:10:06.529 --> 00:10:07.959 That is just crap content. 00:10:08.729 --> 00:10:10.559 And I hope you didn't get any of that in your shoes. 00:10:11.089 --> 00:10:14.889 I mean, you can use AI to write good content that doesn't sound like that. 00:10:15.169 --> 00:10:19.059 And, and that's where, like, that's where I, I, I worry. 00:10:19.059 --> 00:10:22.779 Cause I see a lot of people using it and creating rubbish content. 00:10:22.839 --> 00:10:26.279 And then I see people saying things that sound like, don't use AI. 00:10:26.709 --> 00:10:29.969 And that's, that's my concern is like, well, yeah, do use it, 00:10:30.299 --> 00:10:31.479 but use it in the right way. 00:10:32.409 --> 00:10:33.589 Joe: Use it judiciously. 00:10:33.659 --> 00:10:36.119 I think, I think we both, and we kind of came to this 00:10:36.139 --> 00:10:37.339 conclusion ahead of time, right? 00:10:37.839 --> 00:10:40.059 I think we both are closer. 00:10:40.534 --> 00:10:43.954 In our beliefs than we initially thought, right? 00:10:44.624 --> 00:10:49.734 Uh, there was another person who commented saying, like, If my audience 00:10:49.734 --> 00:10:52.494 can't tell the difference between what I write and what AI wrote, 00:10:52.494 --> 00:10:53.754 Why am I going to waste my time? 00:10:54.194 --> 00:10:59.644 And I, very bluntly said, That's a problem with you, not your audience. 00:11:01.024 --> 00:11:06.474 Like, if you can't, If you can't write in your own voice, Or a 00:11:06.474 --> 00:11:10.134 voice that's differentiated from whatever you just read there about 00:11:10.134 --> 00:11:11.774 clandestine something somethings. 00:11:12.624 --> 00:11:13.014 Right? 00:11:13.174 --> 00:11:15.284 That means that you're a bad writer. 00:11:15.764 --> 00:11:19.104 And if I'm a bad runner, and I want to get better at running, 00:11:19.654 --> 00:11:21.054 I'm not going to drive everywhere. 00:11:21.274 --> 00:11:22.194 I'm going to run more. 00:11:22.914 --> 00:11:25.384 If I don't care about writing, fine. 00:11:25.464 --> 00:11:27.204 But I'm also not going to call myself a writer. 00:11:28.964 --> 00:11:35.864 Alastair: I think that one thing that is super important to me is using 00:11:35.874 --> 00:11:38.884 AI to get faster and more efficient. 00:11:39.764 --> 00:11:41.424 And be more productive. 00:11:41.974 --> 00:11:47.634 And I, I, a friend of mine challenged me to go and quantify, because 00:11:47.694 --> 00:11:48.924 there's, there's a great book. 00:11:48.974 --> 00:11:51.464 I think it's called how to measure anything, but he said, can you 00:11:51.464 --> 00:11:55.484 quantify how much AI is, how much more effective it's making a more efficient. 00:11:56.774 --> 00:12:01.104 And it was making me about 40 percent more efficient at writing 00:12:01.114 --> 00:12:02.734 content, creating content. 00:12:03.324 --> 00:12:06.174 See, now, now we got to get specific about the words that we use here. 00:12:06.514 --> 00:12:06.814 Yeah. 00:12:07.134 --> 00:12:10.994 Um, but I'm still writing that content and the ideas are still coming from me. 00:12:11.884 --> 00:12:15.924 Even though it's applying a lot of the grunt work, and this is where, you know, 00:12:15.994 --> 00:12:21.014 um, like, I, I think of, like, if this was okay, I just made some, I just made 00:12:21.014 --> 00:12:22.554 some lamb kebabs in the kitchen, right? 00:12:22.594 --> 00:12:23.184 I was talking to you. 00:12:23.184 --> 00:12:23.534 I was down. 00:12:23.544 --> 00:12:25.584 I went downstairs cooking and I left the marinating. 00:12:26.084 --> 00:12:28.444 So when I was, when I went down to cook those. 00:12:28.874 --> 00:12:35.204 I chopped some onions in a, uh, a spinning, uh, chopping, uh, device. 00:12:35.304 --> 00:12:38.414 I don't know what you'd call it, but it basically shredded the onions down 00:12:38.424 --> 00:12:40.134 super quick in like five seconds. 00:12:40.214 --> 00:12:40.454 Boom. 00:12:40.604 --> 00:12:40.834 Done. 00:12:41.354 --> 00:12:44.404 I wouldn't have made it back in time for this call if I had done it manually. 00:12:44.734 --> 00:12:47.494 So, uh, so is that to say that I didn't cook that meal? 00:12:47.534 --> 00:12:47.854 You know? 00:12:48.114 --> 00:12:51.304 So no, it's just, I used a tool that made me more effective. 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:52.829 That's, that's the point. 00:12:53.149 --> 00:12:55.619 Like, I still decided what I was going to make, you know? 00:12:56.189 --> 00:13:00.349 Joe: Yeah, but, so, but I think, right, where we are, we are, we are 00:13:00.349 --> 00:13:06.619 different, differing in our analogy is, my analogy was more like you going 00:13:06.619 --> 00:13:09.569 to a restaurant, buying lamb kebabs. 00:13:10.344 --> 00:13:12.374 And then saying, I made these, right? 00:13:12.924 --> 00:13:13.204 Yeah. 00:13:13.254 --> 00:13:13.674 Alastair: Okay. 00:13:14.164 --> 00:13:14.534 Right. 00:13:15.014 --> 00:13:15.904 That's my road. 00:13:16.044 --> 00:13:16.314 Yeah. 00:13:16.804 --> 00:13:20.834 The other issue that comes into this, when it comes into like writing and creating 00:13:20.834 --> 00:13:27.454 content is there is a learning process that occurs in your brain when you write. 00:13:27.864 --> 00:13:31.894 Because you have to formulate the thoughts and put those thoughts together. 00:13:32.404 --> 00:13:36.514 And this is where I could see it potentially being dangerous for people who 00:13:36.514 --> 00:13:41.654 are not experts in the field, because if they're using AI to generate and to write 00:13:41.654 --> 00:13:45.244 for them, they're not going through that learning process where they're actually 00:13:45.244 --> 00:13:46.934 putting the ideas together in their head. 00:13:47.454 --> 00:13:51.149 And, um, I think another friend of mine said something like. 00:13:51.589 --> 00:13:54.589 Editing is learning or editing is thinking, I can't remember 00:13:54.589 --> 00:13:55.579 something, something like that. 00:13:55.579 --> 00:13:58.689 It could be, could be Jonathan Stark or something like that, but the idea 00:13:58.689 --> 00:14:04.339 that, so the idea is, you know, if you already have great ideas and you've 00:14:04.369 --> 00:14:09.879 thought a lot about your topic and you've maybe written about it, then using AI 00:14:09.989 --> 00:14:11.999 can really speed up what you're doing. 00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:14.739 But if you're not at that stage, then it may be. 00:14:15.079 --> 00:14:19.199 Potentially going to damage the journey that's that's a real concern for me for 00:14:19.199 --> 00:14:23.029 somebody who's trying to become an expert on an authority in their field, which 00:14:23.029 --> 00:14:23.929 is something that I think a lot about. 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:25.089 How do you think about that? 00:14:25.929 --> 00:14:27.789 Joe: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, right? 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:28.479 And like I have. 00:14:28.629 --> 00:14:30.609 So I have three small kids, right? 00:14:31.329 --> 00:14:37.969 There are 63 and two, um, my three year old. 00:14:38.964 --> 00:14:45.404 Can do, can do thing, more things at three than my oldest could do at three. 00:14:45.914 --> 00:14:48.754 And it's not about aptitude and it's not about skill. 00:14:49.454 --> 00:14:54.234 It's that my wife and I did more for our oldest because we 00:14:54.234 --> 00:14:55.754 didn't think she could do it. 00:14:55.764 --> 00:14:59.414 So we just did it for her instead of telling her to do 00:14:59.414 --> 00:15:01.114 it herself or try it herself. 00:15:01.954 --> 00:15:08.204 Whereas, we learned, and with our son, he tries to, he tries to do something first. 00:15:08.204 --> 00:15:09.734 We make him try to do it first. 00:15:10.364 --> 00:15:12.454 And so he developed the skill faster. 00:15:13.184 --> 00:15:16.744 So when you're talking about, you know, using AI to do things. 00:15:17.244 --> 00:15:20.774 Instead of doing it yourself, that's exactly what I thought of. 00:15:21.564 --> 00:15:24.984 If I'm tying my shoes for my daughter, she's never going 00:15:24.984 --> 00:15:26.124 to learn how to tie her shoes. 00:15:28.494 --> 00:15:34.754 Alastair: So then the question becomes, well, what if we have a society, and we'll 00:15:34.754 --> 00:15:38.934 take that analogy, where we have machines that will just tie our shoes for us? 00:15:39.979 --> 00:15:41.569 And it's super simple and very quick. 00:15:41.579 --> 00:15:43.319 Do we ever need to learn how to tie our shoes? 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:46.559 Joe: Yeah, that's a good question. 00:15:46.609 --> 00:15:46.859 Right. 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:49.739 Or maybe we just all wear Crocs like in the movie Idiocracy. 00:15:49.769 --> 00:15:50.079 Right. 00:15:50.629 --> 00:15:55.039 Um, which Crocs was not known when that movie was made. 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:55.779 I don't know if you know this. 00:15:55.779 --> 00:15:56.699 Here's a quick tangent. 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:05.619 Uh, Uh, the wardrobe designer for Idiocracy was looking for just kind 00:16:05.619 --> 00:16:08.599 of generic futuristic looking shoes and they found this little known 00:16:08.599 --> 00:16:12.659 company, um, and it was Crocs. 00:16:13.179 --> 00:16:16.749 And they're like, these, nobody will wear these ever, like they're so hideous. 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:18.769 And now they're probably the most common shoe. 00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:21.635 Um, everybody in my house has 00:16:21.635 --> 00:16:21.799 Alastair: them. 00:16:22.259 --> 00:16:22.939 Yeah, the product 00:16:22.939 --> 00:16:23.699 Joe: placement that did it. 00:16:23.979 --> 00:16:26.329 No, it wasn't, it like wasn't even product placement. 00:16:26.329 --> 00:16:30.269 She just sourced the shoes for the movie. 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:31.399 Crazy, right? 00:16:31.789 --> 00:16:36.499 Um, so I mean maybe the movie helped it get big, but it was not known, and 00:16:36.499 --> 00:16:38.239 the wardrobe designer didn't think. 00:16:38.734 --> 00:16:39.944 Anybody would be wearing them. 00:16:39.944 --> 00:16:41.244 That's why they went with those shoes. 00:16:41.654 --> 00:16:43.804 Um, point being, right. 00:16:44.094 --> 00:16:47.944 Uh, my father in law thinks a lot about that with maps, right? 00:16:47.944 --> 00:16:51.314 He like knows how to read a real map and I don't. 00:16:52.714 --> 00:16:56.414 Um, and you know, he's like, if an EMP ever goes off. 00:16:57.419 --> 00:16:59.019 Most of the world is screwed. 00:16:59.169 --> 00:17:01.039 Unlike me, wholeheartedly. 00:17:01.049 --> 00:17:02.929 Like, if computers didn't exist, I'd be dead. 00:17:03.009 --> 00:17:03.599 Basically. 00:17:04.139 --> 00:17:07.589 Um, And so, I think a lot about that, right? 00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:13.549 Like, are we moving towards some futuristic, like, WALL E esque world 00:17:13.959 --> 00:17:17.579 where we're all in, like, these movable chairs and we're all fat and just watching 00:17:17.579 --> 00:17:20.359 TV because we don't need to do anything because machines do it all for us. 00:17:21.409 --> 00:17:23.349 Like, do we lose humanity at that point? 00:17:23.389 --> 00:17:25.049 Like, do we lose our humanity at that point? 00:17:26.299 --> 00:17:26.639 Alastair: Yeah. 00:17:26.639 --> 00:17:29.319 And, uh, you know, I mean, maybe that's just beyond the scope 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:31.559 of what we're talking about because it's just, that's like, 00:17:31.899 --> 00:17:32.409 Joe: that's so far. 00:17:32.659 --> 00:17:32.869 Yeah. 00:17:32.869 --> 00:17:35.499 That's a real heavy, to get that heavy. 00:17:36.069 --> 00:17:41.369 Alastair: Um, but I mean, like, I'm sure that people said the same thing when 00:17:41.379 --> 00:17:43.189 the calculator was created, you know? 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.369 Oh, people aren't going to do maths in their head anymore. 00:17:46.369 --> 00:17:47.759 And that's, you know, that's. 00:17:49.974 --> 00:17:55.784 Uh, I even heard somebody talking about, I think it was Erasmus, the philosopher, 00:17:56.274 --> 00:18:01.474 uh, and mathematician, uh, complained when the printing press was invented 00:18:01.834 --> 00:18:07.234 that there was going to be too much content created and that the quality 00:18:07.234 --> 00:18:12.254 of content was go, was going to, uh, be mediocre and that, that it would be harder 00:18:12.254 --> 00:18:14.094 for good quality content to surface. 00:18:14.849 --> 00:18:17.659 And that was, you know, when was that? 00:18:17.659 --> 00:18:18.579 The 1600s. 00:18:18.989 --> 00:18:22.109 So, um, I'm showing my, my terrible history here with 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:22.909 not knowing the date of that. 00:18:22.969 --> 00:18:23.559 No, that's 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:23.819 accurate 00:18:23.919 --> 00:18:24.119 Joe: though. 00:18:24.389 --> 00:18:25.759 Uh, I'm sorry. 00:18:25.789 --> 00:18:27.969 No, it was the 1400s. 00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:32.569 The printing press was invented like the same year Leonardo da Vinci was born. 00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:35.799 And I only know that cause I just started reading Walter Isaacson's 00:18:35.819 --> 00:18:37.279 book on Leonardo da Vinci. 00:18:37.564 --> 00:18:37.804 Alastair: Yes. 00:18:37.814 --> 00:18:38.294 Right. 00:18:38.654 --> 00:18:39.954 And he's a fascinating character. 00:18:40.014 --> 00:18:45.034 And, and, uh, I've been in his house that he had in, um, in France. 00:18:45.384 --> 00:18:49.784 Uh, he, he lived beside the French King in, um, in the lower valley. 00:18:50.044 --> 00:18:50.554 Oh yeah. 00:18:50.564 --> 00:18:52.054 Fascinating place to visit. 00:18:52.374 --> 00:18:53.814 Um, but now that's a tangent. 00:18:54.174 --> 00:19:00.554 So the, so whenever this new technology has come along, people, people are saying, 00:19:00.574 --> 00:19:05.626 okay, the, you know, the, the end is nigh, but let's talk about the practicalities. 00:19:05.626 --> 00:19:06.059 Yes. 00:19:06.739 --> 00:19:12.209 The, the situation where somebody wants to use AI to write when, 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:13.839 when is it a good idea to use it? 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:15.249 When is it not a good idea to use it? 00:19:17.299 --> 00:19:20.759 Joe: Yeah, I think, I think like with any technology we are learning. 00:19:20.769 --> 00:19:21.939 We're learning, right? 00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:24.269 It's a new technology. 00:19:24.699 --> 00:19:31.099 And so, uh, just like when phones first came out, it didn't have all 00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:37.159 of the screen time, focus, filters, parental controls that we have now. 00:19:38.049 --> 00:19:42.709 So we're definitely in like the, call it the AI renaissance. 00:19:42.954 --> 00:19:46.154 Maybe we're all trying to, maybe it's pre Renaissance, right? 00:19:46.154 --> 00:19:48.244 Cause Renaissance is like the really good age, right? 00:19:48.244 --> 00:19:51.894 But so we're like pre Renaissance, we're just trying stuff now. 00:19:52.784 --> 00:20:02.084 Um, and so I'm taking a very hard line skepticism of people who say, Oh yeah, 00:20:02.364 --> 00:20:04.524 you can literally use AI for anything. 00:20:05.354 --> 00:20:08.864 Because I think that what we can't use AI for is, is anything 00:20:08.864 --> 00:20:10.644 that requires the human element. 00:20:11.304 --> 00:20:14.014 telling stories, writing, right? 00:20:14.364 --> 00:20:16.964 If I just want, here's an example, right? 00:20:17.014 --> 00:20:18.194 I tried this, right? 00:20:18.204 --> 00:20:20.334 Cause I'm not just like someone who says, don't do it. 00:20:20.334 --> 00:20:21.374 And I'm not going to try it. 00:20:21.374 --> 00:20:21.904 I'm going to try it. 00:20:21.934 --> 00:20:25.624 So I wrote a primer for AI. 00:20:25.644 --> 00:20:26.874 So I prompted. 00:20:27.404 --> 00:20:32.234 Chat GPT for, and I said, write me a 700 word blog post, basically 00:20:32.234 --> 00:20:34.744 explaining AI and large language models. 00:20:35.424 --> 00:20:37.344 And like, obviously it got the facts right. 00:20:37.614 --> 00:20:40.374 I knew the facts already because I had done my own research. 00:20:41.014 --> 00:20:43.894 Um, I had done my own reading on the topic. 00:20:44.334 --> 00:20:48.204 Uh, but it was just like a flat telling of what AI is. 00:20:48.204 --> 00:20:49.974 And so I had to punch it up. 00:20:49.974 --> 00:20:54.784 I talked about Star Wars and I added my own personal anecdotes. 00:20:55.284 --> 00:20:57.934 And what I kept from that blog post. 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:03.579 Was basically like two bulleted lists, uh, of like what large language 00:21:03.589 --> 00:21:08.149 models are and, and some ideas that you, that you could use for them. 00:21:09.629 --> 00:21:12.889 Did I, did I write that blog post? 00:21:12.959 --> 00:21:16.549 I wrote, I don't know, 90 percent of it. 00:21:17.549 --> 00:21:23.909 Um, and so would people read it if I just took what ChatGPT 00:21:23.909 --> 00:21:26.669 gave me and, and published it? 00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:30.239 I don't think so, because there's no hook. 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:31.729 There's nothing that grabbed me. 00:21:33.554 --> 00:21:35.224 Alastair: So what if you asked it to add a hook? 00:21:36.894 --> 00:21:38.724 Joe: It still wouldn't be my hook, right? 00:21:38.874 --> 00:21:39.684 Like it would be like, 00:21:39.954 --> 00:21:41.704 Alastair: Then you can say, you know, I don't like that hook. 00:21:41.714 --> 00:21:42.804 Give me three other options. 00:21:42.844 --> 00:21:46.094 What about using the hook that does something else and suggest one? 00:21:47.794 --> 00:21:49.814 Joe: It's still not me writing it. 00:21:49.894 --> 00:21:50.124 Right. 00:21:50.124 --> 00:21:51.544 It's still not my voice. 00:21:51.894 --> 00:21:52.184 Right. 00:21:52.214 --> 00:21:52.814 And so 00:21:52.834 --> 00:21:53.664 Alastair: you see that that's. 00:21:54.019 --> 00:21:54.729 That's the question. 00:21:54.729 --> 00:21:59.029 I mean, you can, like the way that I use it, I use it in a very iterative way. 00:21:59.739 --> 00:22:03.999 So I'll get feet, I'll, I'll get output and I'll say, um, I 00:22:04.009 --> 00:22:05.339 don't like that call to action. 00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:06.669 I don't like that opening hook. 00:22:06.969 --> 00:22:09.449 I suggest me another hook or use this as a hook. 00:22:10.124 --> 00:22:12.214 And, and am I not then writing 00:22:12.214 --> 00:22:12.424 Joe: it? 00:22:13.194 --> 00:22:14.944 No, I don't think you are. 00:22:15.004 --> 00:22:16.624 You're telling someone else to write it. 00:22:18.054 --> 00:22:20.204 The chat GPT is basically your ghost writer. 00:22:20.994 --> 00:22:21.384 Alastair: Yeah. 00:22:21.384 --> 00:22:22.944 So, I mean, that's the question. 00:22:22.944 --> 00:22:26.434 And like, I think they're like, there becomes, there becomes a line. 00:22:26.434 --> 00:22:28.434 And I think that this is a spectrum where. 00:22:29.034 --> 00:22:31.564 If you iterate on something enough times and ask for enough changes, 00:22:31.564 --> 00:22:33.084 that it becomes your words. 00:22:33.154 --> 00:22:33.894 I mean, it has to, 00:22:35.144 --> 00:22:36.424 Joe: but they're not your words, 00:22:37.494 --> 00:22:37.864 Alastair: right? 00:22:37.864 --> 00:22:40.114 Well, I don't know about that. 00:22:40.114 --> 00:22:41.364 I mean, it's someone else's 00:22:41.364 --> 00:22:42.004 Joe: words. 00:22:42.614 --> 00:22:46.544 That you extracted from the large language model. 00:22:47.504 --> 00:22:53.494 Alastair: Yeah, so, I mean, the, I mean, I guess this is where we disagree, because 00:22:53.704 --> 00:22:57.874 I think that at some point, like, it's a question of what are you feeding in? 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.279 Like what are the instructions and how detailed are those instructions you're 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:05.999 feeding in, in terms of asking you to generate something, because some 00:23:05.999 --> 00:23:11.039 people will feed in a one line prompt, some people will feed in a 10 line 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:16.749 prompt, some people will will feed in a five line prompt, and you know, 3000 00:23:16.759 --> 00:23:18.589 words that they've already written. 00:23:18.894 --> 00:23:23.364 Generated somehow, for example, both of us, uh, probably generate a lot of words 00:23:23.364 --> 00:23:26.074 through, uh, through podcast transcripts. 00:23:26.854 --> 00:23:32.204 So we could take the transcript of this conversation and I could say, just pull 00:23:32.204 --> 00:23:35.024 out Alistair's side of this conversation. 00:23:35.554 --> 00:23:39.724 Now go through Alistair's, uh, what Alistair said and summarize that. 00:23:39.724 --> 00:23:40.904 Give me a detailed summary of that. 00:23:41.204 --> 00:23:43.644 Now write that as a blog post, right? 00:23:43.644 --> 00:23:45.894 Are you saying that's, that's me writing that or not writing 00:23:45.894 --> 00:23:45.994 Joe: that? 00:23:45.994 --> 00:23:46.129 Okay. 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:51.579 No, I wouldn't say you're writing it. 00:23:51.729 --> 00:23:54.399 I would say it's your words being used, right? 00:23:54.889 --> 00:23:57.069 Alastair: You see, that to me sounds like semantics because... 00:23:57.309 --> 00:24:00.379 Joe: But it's the difference between like a biography and an autobiography, right? 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:08.589 Alastair: Um, yeah, I guess maybe we're not going to agree 00:24:08.589 --> 00:24:10.429 on this because I think that... 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.989 Having a biography, I guess it's kind of like maybe it's an authorized 00:24:15.029 --> 00:24:17.819 biography where the, where the person is standing over the shoulder of the 00:24:17.819 --> 00:24:19.369 writer and saying, Hey, yes, I do. 00:24:19.369 --> 00:24:20.109 Or I don't, you know? 00:24:20.349 --> 00:24:20.759 Right. 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:21.099 Joe: Yeah. 00:24:21.179 --> 00:24:21.989 I, yeah. 00:24:22.009 --> 00:24:22.269 Right. 00:24:22.309 --> 00:24:25.769 Isaacson interviewed, uh, he didn't interview Steve jobs early in our da 00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:31.549 Vinci, obviously, but he interviewed a bunch of people who knew him and then has 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:36.099 footage and all this and put something together for the Steve jobs book. 00:24:36.099 --> 00:24:36.509 We'll say. 00:24:37.259 --> 00:24:39.489 I wouldn't, even though a lot of those words are probably 00:24:39.489 --> 00:24:42.409 Steve Jobs and it's his life, I wouldn't say Steve Jobs wrote that. 00:24:43.199 --> 00:24:43.669 Yeah. 00:24:43.869 --> 00:24:45.269 Alastair: So, so, okay. 00:24:46.619 --> 00:24:50.169 Apart from the fact that we, we maybe, uh, are in disagreement over that, 00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:54.779 where I think it's important is, is like right now, this is not that important. 00:24:54.829 --> 00:24:59.119 I think because The words that it's generating without any editing are 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:00.999 just not good enough to pass for human. 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.569 Yeah, we, we, we wholly agree on that. 00:25:04.619 --> 00:25:04.929 Yes. 00:25:04.979 --> 00:25:10.799 But at some point they will, at some point it's going to get good enough for us to, 00:25:10.999 --> 00:25:15.919 to not be able to tell, or for, you know, 99 percent of us not to be able to tell. 00:25:16.304 --> 00:25:16.654 Right. 00:25:17.414 --> 00:25:19.164 Joe: I think you're probably right about that. 00:25:20.024 --> 00:25:23.154 Alastair: And then we have other things that come along like custom GPTs. 00:25:23.184 --> 00:25:26.034 I did a live stream about this last week where I made a custom 00:25:26.034 --> 00:25:28.144 uploaded four of my books to it. 00:25:28.794 --> 00:25:34.284 So I now have a custom chat GPT bot that knows what I've said about a 00:25:34.284 --> 00:25:36.704 topic and knows my writing style. 00:25:37.304 --> 00:25:42.544 So if I then say, you know, um, give me a, you know, give me a blog post about this 00:25:42.544 --> 00:25:44.314 topic based on what I wrote in that book. 00:25:45.139 --> 00:25:49.839 It's able to create a new blog post that kind of synthesizes the ideas from that. 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:53.799 And it's, and it's going to be in a fairly close, it's still not going 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.299 to be perfect, but it's going to be fairly close to what I said. 00:25:58.679 --> 00:26:01.669 Joe: It's going to be, yeah, it's going to be fairly close to what you said, but 00:26:01.669 --> 00:26:07.709 it's not going to be what, it might not be what Alistair in 2023 would write. 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:11.399 Because since you wrote those books, I know one, you just wrote 00:26:11.459 --> 00:26:15.199 around this time last year, but those previous books will say. 00:26:15.774 --> 00:26:17.654 You were a different person, right? 00:26:17.654 --> 00:26:19.964 Some people say that we change every two years, right? 00:26:20.004 --> 00:26:22.034 Like yeah, you look back at yourself two years ago, and you 00:26:22.044 --> 00:26:23.164 feel like you're a different person. 00:26:23.674 --> 00:26:30.264 So That's where AI and chat GPT will always fail, right? 00:26:30.294 --> 00:26:35.079 It could have all the words I've ever written But when I'm 40 years old, 00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:42.049 two years from now, I'm gonna have an A preteen and two and two other small 00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:44.569 children and I might be living in a different house and I'll have a bunch of 00:26:44.569 --> 00:26:50.449 different life experiences that I will use to relate my ideas to other people. 00:26:51.439 --> 00:26:54.829 And so I think I wanna, I wanna say this thought before I lose it, because when 00:26:54.829 --> 00:26:59.659 you were talking about prompting and iterating, it's the, I think that's the 00:26:59.659 --> 00:27:01.699 difference between like being a visionary. 00:27:02.784 --> 00:27:04.854 And being the actual worker, right? 00:27:04.914 --> 00:27:05.854 Steve again. 00:27:05.874 --> 00:27:07.424 Well, I'll just use Steve Jobs again. 00:27:07.424 --> 00:27:12.794 I guess Steve Jobs was a visionary for the iPhone, but no one would ever say 00:27:12.804 --> 00:27:15.524 he physically made the iPhone, right? 00:27:18.194 --> 00:27:20.394 Because he, he got it. 00:27:20.394 --> 00:27:21.154 He tested it. 00:27:21.174 --> 00:27:27.514 A bunch of people provided feedback and the iPhone that came out was 00:27:28.114 --> 00:27:30.554 from innovations from engineers. 00:27:31.384 --> 00:27:34.394 And it was really the first thing of its kind to take 00:27:34.394 --> 00:27:36.064 this example one step further. 00:27:36.709 --> 00:27:38.669 You saw a lot of copycats after that, right? 00:27:38.669 --> 00:27:41.869 That weren't as good as the iPhone or whatever. 00:27:41.869 --> 00:27:43.339 Pick your favorite phone, I guess. 00:27:43.689 --> 00:27:50.049 Um, weren't as good as the iPhone, uh, but were imitations based on 00:27:50.049 --> 00:27:51.599 what they knew about the iPhone. 00:27:52.139 --> 00:27:54.249 So I, I, I'm. 00:27:54.499 --> 00:28:01.689 Maybe pulling together an analogy here, um, that's not, that's kind of 00:28:01.709 --> 00:28:05.289 half baked, but, you know, I think it's kind of the difference between, 00:28:05.289 --> 00:28:08.629 like, the visionary doing the work, and then, like, copying the original work. 00:28:10.249 --> 00:28:15.449 Alastair: Yeah, so, I guess, I'm, like, I'm trying to, I'm still trying to figure 00:28:15.449 --> 00:28:22.039 this out, because, for example, I, when I drive, I sometimes narrate and record 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:27.479 or dictate, and quite often I will do that into the otter app on my phone. 00:28:27.789 --> 00:28:29.089 Joe: So I use audio pen. 00:28:29.149 --> 00:28:29.499 Yeah. 00:28:29.639 --> 00:28:29.909 Alastair: Yeah. 00:28:30.529 --> 00:28:35.359 And so what I'll do is I'll, I'll record some stuff in there and I'll like, that 00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:38.689 might be an idea for a blog post or it could be for a podcast episode or just 00:28:38.689 --> 00:28:41.049 something about my to do for, for the day. 00:28:41.664 --> 00:28:45.354 But quite often I'll take that text and run it through chat GPT and 00:28:45.354 --> 00:28:49.094 I'll say, clean this up, uh, give it to me in bullet points or give 00:28:49.094 --> 00:28:50.334 it to me in the form of a table. 00:28:50.694 --> 00:28:52.734 Um, you know, I asked her for that today. 00:28:52.734 --> 00:28:56.534 I was, I was looking at updating a product and I said, I want, I want 00:28:56.584 --> 00:28:59.904 you to give me the, you know, the new pricing and the new, uh, product 00:28:59.914 --> 00:29:01.374 features in the, in the form of a table. 00:29:02.234 --> 00:29:08.564 So that, that kind of thing, like where I'm dictating in, like I 00:29:08.564 --> 00:29:09.764 feel, well, that's me writing. 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:16.769 You know, um, even if it does some significant cleanup, those ideas are still 00:29:16.769 --> 00:29:21.589 coming from me and not only that, but when it's doing the cleanup, the cleanup that 00:29:21.589 --> 00:29:23.939 it's doing is based on my suggestions. 00:29:23.939 --> 00:29:26.999 It's not like it's coming up with, if I say, you know what I want you 00:29:26.999 --> 00:29:29.489 to, uh, you know, that's too wordy. 00:29:29.619 --> 00:29:33.509 Like the one I like, I always say, make it more concise, more directly 00:29:33.509 --> 00:29:35.699 written and remove filler and fluff. 00:29:35.854 --> 00:29:36.044 Right. 00:29:36.284 --> 00:29:39.454 And when it does that, lo and behold, it starts to sound a lot more like I write. 00:29:39.834 --> 00:29:42.544 And I don't know if that's because of like, I write more, more tersely because 00:29:42.544 --> 00:29:47.014 of an engineering background or whatever, but I tend not to write in, in, in that 00:29:47.014 --> 00:29:48.494 kind of way where it's quite wordy. 00:29:48.894 --> 00:29:54.034 So, but, but I feel like I am writing when I, when I, when I give it those 00:29:54.034 --> 00:30:01.674 instructions, because what's coming out is my ideas in my voice, sounding like me. 00:30:02.229 --> 00:30:06.879 Uh, and, and has been edited by me, maybe through an, an iterative editing 00:30:06.879 --> 00:30:08.939 process where I talk to the AI. 00:30:09.109 --> 00:30:13.859 And by the way, quite literally, I mean, uh, I use chat GPT on my phone where I 00:30:13.869 --> 00:30:15.579 use the voice dictation input feature. 00:30:15.899 --> 00:30:19.149 So quite often I'm actually having a conversation literally 00:30:19.179 --> 00:30:20.209 where I'm speaking to it. 00:30:20.729 --> 00:30:24.199 Uh, and, and yet I feel like I'm writing that and, and I think that maybe this 00:30:24.209 --> 00:30:28.149 is a semantics thing, but, uh, you know, do you, do you disagree with me? 00:30:30.459 --> 00:30:33.789 Joe: I, well, they're definitely your ideas. 00:30:34.064 --> 00:30:34.534 Right. 00:30:35.104 --> 00:30:40.064 I would, when I do this with audio patent, right, and maybe 00:30:40.064 --> 00:30:41.464 I'm not using the right tool. 00:30:41.514 --> 00:30:41.854 Right. 00:30:42.504 --> 00:30:49.744 Um, I never feel like what it comes up with is suitably me. 00:30:49.984 --> 00:30:50.314 Right. 00:30:50.354 --> 00:30:54.874 It takes what I say, and it turns it into some language. 00:30:55.364 --> 00:30:57.954 And if it's just like a social post, like, maybe I don't care. 00:30:58.004 --> 00:30:59.164 Maybe I'll just throw that up. 00:30:59.754 --> 00:31:06.049 But I have very rarely felt like what I got back from an AI Was something 00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:11.569 that I felt I couldn't have done a better job writing or editing, right? 00:31:11.569 --> 00:31:16.659 And so, um, this is probably, this is obviously very subjective. 00:31:17.299 --> 00:31:25.289 Um, I think that, I think that if you are dictating the words, Right? 00:31:25.289 --> 00:31:26.499 This could be semantics, right? 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.619 If you listen to a bunch of books on Audible, are you reading those books? 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:30.939 Right? 00:31:30.979 --> 00:31:32.529 Or like you're cheating a little bit, right? 00:31:32.529 --> 00:31:34.839 Because like you can listen to it at 1x and you're hearing it 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:39.509 faster than, than you're reading it and maybe, but maybe you're not 00:31:39.509 --> 00:31:41.659 comprehending it as well either, right? 00:31:41.659 --> 00:31:46.959 So, um, Like, I think that we need to consider what we're 00:31:46.959 --> 00:31:48.219 losing with the shortcut. 00:31:48.979 --> 00:31:53.229 And so if you're dictating and iterating and you eventually get 00:31:53.229 --> 00:31:58.749 something that's good, what have you given up to get to that point? 00:31:59.809 --> 00:32:03.139 I think that's probably, and that's gonna be 00:32:03.189 --> 00:32:04.069 Alastair: different for everybody. 00:32:04.809 --> 00:32:08.289 So, right, to take the argument that you made an argument, which 00:32:08.289 --> 00:32:11.769 is effectively The output that I've seen so far isn't good enough. 00:32:12.179 --> 00:32:16.359 Now, my counterpoint to that is, that's irrelevant because at some 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:17.999 point soon it will be good enough. 00:32:18.049 --> 00:32:20.939 Whether that's chat GPT 5 or GPT 4. 00:32:20.959 --> 00:32:22.399 1 or whatever. 00:32:22.689 --> 00:32:27.139 At some point that output is probably going to be good enough for, you know, 00:32:27.219 --> 00:32:33.584 99 percent of Of uses now, I think that, you know, there's always going 00:32:33.584 --> 00:32:37.644 to be that last, the last 1 percent that it's, it's never going to going 00:32:37.644 --> 00:32:41.164 to, um, that it's never going to get to in terms of quality of output. 00:32:41.164 --> 00:32:43.684 Now, what I'm talking about here, by the way, is in writing style. 00:32:44.094 --> 00:32:50.769 Uh, I think that in terms of actually formulating and having new ideas, And 00:32:50.769 --> 00:32:52.769 synthesizing new ideas from nothing. 00:32:53.109 --> 00:32:56.709 I think that that's like, that's not generative AI. 00:32:56.709 --> 00:32:59.949 That's not, you know, chat GPT and those models, there might be some 00:32:59.949 --> 00:33:03.809 other type of, of AI that comes along and can do that, but, but that's not 00:33:03.809 --> 00:33:04.759 really what we're talking about here. 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:04.999 Right. 00:33:06.269 --> 00:33:06.639 Joe: Right. 00:33:06.639 --> 00:33:06.879 Yeah. 00:33:06.879 --> 00:33:11.949 And in this moment, right, the thing I'm running with now is, is you talking at 00:33:11.949 --> 00:33:15.719 an AI and coming up with some writing and then you iterating over that. 00:33:15.719 --> 00:33:15.909 Right. 00:33:16.479 --> 00:33:17.369 I think you're probably right. 00:33:17.369 --> 00:33:17.489 Right. 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:21.809 Especially with these GP, like these custom GPTs, I could feed. 00:33:22.399 --> 00:33:28.299 One, I've been writing on the internet for 20 years, right? 00:33:28.379 --> 00:33:33.659 Now, the way I wrote in 20, in 2003, was very bad. 00:33:34.879 --> 00:33:38.739 Uh, so maybe I give it the last five years of me writing. 00:33:39.749 --> 00:33:42.899 It's probably gonna do a pretty good job. 00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:45.699 A pretty decent facsimile. 00:33:46.109 --> 00:33:52.539 Of how I would write something right and I still wouldn't say I wrote 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:54.709 it because I didn't write it right. 00:33:54.869 --> 00:34:00.219 It's I covered the 26 miles, but I didn't run it. 00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:02.539 So I shouldn't be celebrated for it. 00:34:02.889 --> 00:34:04.529 I think that's the big thing, 00:34:05.129 --> 00:34:05.489 Alastair: right? 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:05.829 Yeah. 00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:10.829 And so for me, if I, if I dictate for an hour. 00:34:10.999 --> 00:34:13.369 As I'm driving on a topic, right? 00:34:13.379 --> 00:34:18.809 And let's say I dictate an hour is about, um, like 000 words, something like that. 00:34:18.809 --> 00:34:22.479 Maybe, maybe not, not that many, but in a somewhere around that, right. 00:34:22.549 --> 00:34:25.779 And if I dictate for an hour about a topic and I, and I come up, 00:34:25.779 --> 00:34:27.059 but let's say it's 8, 000 words. 00:34:27.409 --> 00:34:27.619 Yeah. 00:34:27.619 --> 00:34:31.319 And then I put that through generative AI, it mightn't go through chat, 00:34:31.319 --> 00:34:32.449 GPT might be too much for that. 00:34:32.819 --> 00:34:37.869 Um, but I boil that down and I clean that up and I use it to reformat it and put in 00:34:37.869 --> 00:34:39.969 the nice headings and things like that. 00:34:40.624 --> 00:34:41.904 My argument is I wrote that. 00:34:42.564 --> 00:34:43.894 Those ideas came from me. 00:34:44.184 --> 00:34:48.104 The, the, the order that things came in came from me, the ideas. 00:34:48.609 --> 00:34:53.429 And the fact that I had an editor come around afterwards, humans have 00:34:53.429 --> 00:34:56.499 been doing that forever, where we've been giving content to editors and 00:34:56.499 --> 00:34:57.559 getting them to clean up after us. 00:34:57.859 --> 00:34:58.959 We're still saying we wrote it. 00:34:59.259 --> 00:34:59.489 This 00:34:59.489 --> 00:35:02.199 Joe: is the most, this is your most compelling argument, right? 00:35:03.029 --> 00:35:05.059 Because you've put in an hour's worth of work. 00:35:06.209 --> 00:35:09.079 And like, yeah, my book, my last book, right. 00:35:09.129 --> 00:35:12.239 Uh, uh, HTML and CSS, a visual quick start guide. 00:35:13.229 --> 00:35:15.079 I wrote, I say, I wrote that book. 00:35:15.419 --> 00:35:25.129 I'm the only author on that book, but my editor reworded large swaths of that book. 00:35:25.649 --> 00:35:27.659 And this was actually something I wrestled with. 00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:29.329 I was like, can I even say I wrote this? 00:35:29.329 --> 00:35:31.039 Like he rewrote this basically. 00:35:31.059 --> 00:35:32.249 Can I say I wrote it? 00:35:32.799 --> 00:35:36.959 Um, but ultimately we both like, that's the job he's in. 00:35:37.059 --> 00:35:37.389 Right. 00:35:37.579 --> 00:35:38.549 We both agreed. 00:35:39.309 --> 00:35:47.449 That I wrote it because I put together the outline, I ordered everything, I wrote the 00:35:47.449 --> 00:35:54.589 code, I put the ideas down, and then he restructured it in the format of that book 00:35:54.589 --> 00:35:55.129 Alastair: series. 00:35:56.069 --> 00:36:00.939 And the other argument there is, if you hadn't done your part, then your 00:36:01.169 --> 00:36:02.699 editor could not have done their part. 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:03.049 You're right, 00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:04.889 Joe: he would not have been able to do his part. 00:36:05.314 --> 00:36:05.894 And, 00:36:05.974 --> 00:36:11.324 Alastair: and, and, and so the issue right now is, is I think that what we 00:36:11.324 --> 00:36:16.744 are creating with AI for the most part, if you're an expert in your field, 00:36:17.054 --> 00:36:20.824 what you are going to create with AI is going to be vastly different than 00:36:20.834 --> 00:36:25.214 somebody who is not an expert in the field because they're not going to know 00:36:25.224 --> 00:36:29.334 when it gives you some sort of mediocre, bland output that that isn't good enough. 00:36:29.504 --> 00:36:29.784 Right. 00:36:30.054 --> 00:36:32.864 Whereas an expert will look at the output and say, actually, it's missing 00:36:32.864 --> 00:36:36.694 something really fundamental or something that I feel is fundamental to my 00:36:36.694 --> 00:36:38.314 distinct point of view on this topic. 00:36:39.764 --> 00:36:43.444 And once you add that, then I think you've got something valuable. 00:36:43.694 --> 00:36:48.104 And then it, it, it, it then goes to the kind of like the value pricing 00:36:48.104 --> 00:36:52.864 versus hourly pricing discussion where, um, and, and just to summarize that 00:36:52.864 --> 00:36:57.264 really quickly, the, um, the, that argument is you shouldn't bill people. 00:36:57.924 --> 00:37:00.974 Hourly because it shouldn't matter how long something takes. 00:37:01.024 --> 00:37:04.854 It should matter how valuable the output is to to your client. 00:37:05.114 --> 00:37:10.034 And in fact, like, for example, if I'm editing a video for somebody, let's say 00:37:10.054 --> 00:37:14.534 it takes me two hours and I'm able to find a tool that lets me do it in one hour. 00:37:15.304 --> 00:37:18.574 Should I continue to do it the slow way and charge them twice as much? 00:37:18.674 --> 00:37:21.724 And that's where the ethics of hourly billing come in. 00:37:21.994 --> 00:37:25.354 And that's why Jonathan Stark talks about that on his show, Ditching Hourly. 00:37:25.674 --> 00:37:31.489 Um, but so, so in the same way, like, You know, should we avoid 00:37:31.489 --> 00:37:33.969 using these tools that help us to do these things much quicker? 00:37:34.009 --> 00:37:39.559 I mean, and, and, um, I think that there's a connection between those concepts. 00:37:39.899 --> 00:37:42.869 So I haven't articulated that very well, but I think that, you know, that 00:37:42.989 --> 00:37:47.689 the like, we shouldn't necessarily have to do things the slow way in 00:37:47.689 --> 00:37:49.679 order to claim the value of the work. 00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.539 It should be about the value of the output. 00:37:52.284 --> 00:37:53.224 And is this good? 00:37:53.224 --> 00:37:53.944 I put not. 00:37:54.454 --> 00:37:57.554 Did you write this or did you run the marathon manually? 00:37:58.004 --> 00:37:59.984 Like if it depends on the goal, right? 00:38:00.104 --> 00:38:03.784 If the goal is to run the marathon in order for to have the 00:38:04.034 --> 00:38:06.824 achievement of the health and the fitness, then that's one thing. 00:38:07.374 --> 00:38:09.904 If the goal is to get 26. 00:38:10.054 --> 00:38:11.519 12 miles, yeah, 26. 00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:11.644 1. 00:38:12.419 --> 00:38:13.029 Yeah. 00:38:13.029 --> 00:38:14.929 If the goal is to just travel a, to be 26. 00:38:14.929 --> 00:38:19.709 1 miles, then yeah, if we can, you know, if we, if we can use a jet pack to get 00:38:19.709 --> 00:38:22.279 there, um, we, we've got there in the end. 00:38:22.349 --> 00:38:23.919 So that's all that matters. 00:38:23.999 --> 00:38:26.459 You know, that's, that, that's my argument on that is like, 00:38:26.709 --> 00:38:28.419 it's what's the value of the 00:38:28.509 --> 00:38:29.739 Joe: 26. 00:38:29.739 --> 00:38:30.569 Alastair: 2. 00:38:30.569 --> 00:38:30.859 Okay. 00:38:30.899 --> 00:38:31.999 I should, I should know this. 00:38:31.999 --> 00:38:33.919 I volunteered at Dublin Marathon two weeks ago. 00:38:33.919 --> 00:38:42.489 Um, anyway, uh, So, so yeah, so, so for me, it's, it's like, what's the value 00:38:42.489 --> 00:38:44.949 of the output and, and is the output. 00:38:45.389 --> 00:38:49.239 And then I guess the argument is who's, who are we talking about the 00:38:49.239 --> 00:38:52.559 value to, are we talking about the value to the consumer of the, of the 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:54.579 output or to the creator of the output? 00:38:54.579 --> 00:39:00.369 Because then it brings back in the issue of learning from the writing process. 00:39:00.869 --> 00:39:01.219 Right. 00:39:01.339 --> 00:39:02.949 And that wraps back around to what we talked about at the 00:39:02.959 --> 00:39:04.449 start learning from writing. 00:39:04.794 --> 00:39:05.484 Joe: Yes. 00:39:05.934 --> 00:39:07.594 And I, I, I think you're right. 00:39:07.644 --> 00:39:08.034 Right. 00:39:08.104 --> 00:39:11.314 Again, like if, if your goal is just to cover the distance, do whatever 00:39:11.314 --> 00:39:12.524 you need to do to cover the distance. 00:39:12.524 --> 00:39:12.764 Right. 00:39:13.254 --> 00:39:16.564 But I don't think just covering the distance. 00:39:17.019 --> 00:39:18.119 Should be celebrated. 00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.229 I think this is really where I'm at, right? 00:39:20.729 --> 00:39:25.659 If someone's gonna wear the badge of honor for doing a marathon, for running 00:39:25.659 --> 00:39:27.719 a marathon, then they need to run it. 00:39:28.059 --> 00:39:34.809 Just like if somebody is wearing the badge of, I authored this book, right? 00:39:35.289 --> 00:39:42.189 Then they need to Let's take your dictated example, right? 00:39:42.249 --> 00:39:44.629 I will, I will cede this point to you. 00:39:45.579 --> 00:39:49.749 They need to get all of the ideas down there. 00:39:49.789 --> 00:39:52.459 The book needs to be fully their ideas. 00:39:53.189 --> 00:39:55.529 They can't say chat GPT. 00:39:55.689 --> 00:39:57.529 I'm writing a book about podcasting. 00:39:57.839 --> 00:40:00.259 Chapter one is how to start a podcast. 00:40:00.589 --> 00:40:03.979 Right that chapter and then slap their name on it. 00:40:05.189 --> 00:40:09.529 This is I am I am Unmoving in that opinion. 00:40:10.249 --> 00:40:10.639 Alastair: Okay. 00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:14.929 So what about they say chapter one is going to be you know How to write 00:40:14.929 --> 00:40:19.699 a pot how to create a podcast here are The five sections I'm going to 00:40:19.699 --> 00:40:23.869 have in this chapter, can you think of anything I might have missed? 00:40:25.329 --> 00:40:28.839 Joe: That's ideation and I think it's, I think chat, GBT is, 00:40:28.839 --> 00:40:30.879 or AI in general is great for 00:40:30.879 --> 00:40:31.149 Alastair: that. 00:40:31.299 --> 00:40:31.569 Mm-Hmm. 00:40:32.149 --> 00:40:32.479 Yeah. 00:40:32.484 --> 00:40:35.389 And, and so what we're talking about then, like, see there's 00:40:35.389 --> 00:40:36.829 a lot of nuance to this really. 00:40:36.949 --> 00:40:37.544 There's a lot there. 00:40:37.694 --> 00:40:39.649 Joe: This argument there is just like, I, I mean like 00:40:39.654 --> 00:40:40.704 nothing's black and white, right? 00:40:40.844 --> 00:40:41.264 Mm-Hmm. 00:40:41.344 --> 00:40:43.204 like, um, but there is, right? 00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:46.019 Am I, am I cheating by wearing running shoes? 00:40:46.314 --> 00:40:47.184 In a marathon? 00:40:47.464 --> 00:40:48.034 No. 00:40:48.524 --> 00:40:49.654 It'd be crazy to run barefoot. 00:40:49.814 --> 00:40:52.834 Alastair: Do you know that there are running shoes that have these 00:40:52.854 --> 00:40:56.794 kind of composed blades of carbon that actually make you run faster? 00:40:57.084 --> 00:41:00.794 That costs lots and lots of money, but that Oh, no, I didn't know that. 00:41:00.844 --> 00:41:04.244 Yeah, they've helped them break the two hour mark on the marathon. 00:41:05.714 --> 00:41:06.024 Yeah. 00:41:06.314 --> 00:41:07.704 So, um, so there you go. 00:41:07.704 --> 00:41:08.144 I don't know. 00:41:08.284 --> 00:41:11.674 I don't know how long a marathon is, but I know that you can get shoes that, 00:41:11.864 --> 00:41:13.504 that will actually make you faster. 00:41:13.514 --> 00:41:13.804 Right. 00:41:14.174 --> 00:41:14.554 Yeah. 00:41:14.794 --> 00:41:16.484 Joe: Well, it's just like, you know, in baseball, right. 00:41:16.484 --> 00:41:19.604 Is, is taking performance enhancing drugs, cheating. 00:41:20.224 --> 00:41:22.954 Like can you, can you say you hit those, you still have the mechanics. 00:41:23.649 --> 00:41:24.199 I don't know. 00:41:24.929 --> 00:41:25.549 Yeah. 00:41:26.419 --> 00:41:26.799 Alastair: Yeah. 00:41:26.859 --> 00:41:28.249 And, and yeah, okay. 00:41:28.249 --> 00:41:30.539 That, that's a whole, a whole thing. 00:41:30.689 --> 00:41:32.079 Are we using performance enhancing 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:32.439 Joe: AI? 00:41:32.489 --> 00:41:32.799 You know? 00:41:32.929 --> 00:41:33.169 Yeah. 00:41:33.379 --> 00:41:34.229 Yeah, exactly. 00:41:34.489 --> 00:41:34.829 So, yeah. 00:41:35.109 --> 00:41:38.639 But I would say for your example, like I use, I use chat GPT for. 00:41:39.109 --> 00:41:45.179 Ideation all the time because I'm just me and that's what it's great for, right? 00:41:45.179 --> 00:41:50.949 Because it has all of this information at your fingertips. 00:41:51.649 --> 00:41:55.029 So I think that that example is great. 00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.979 You're essentially in training mode at that point, right? 00:41:58.409 --> 00:41:59.979 If we're going to beat this analogy to death. 00:42:00.009 --> 00:42:04.869 Alastair: Then the next step there is, so we're using it for, we're 00:42:04.869 --> 00:42:08.429 using it for ideas and then are we. 00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:13.159 Are we using it to, uh, what's the word? 00:42:13.399 --> 00:42:18.809 Um, so, so if, if we're using it, like we're saying, Hey, oh, I forgot that. 00:42:18.839 --> 00:42:21.769 Please, please add that to the list and write a section on it. 00:42:22.609 --> 00:42:25.149 And at that point, you're saying it's moving out of ideation 00:42:25.189 --> 00:42:26.749 into writing it for you. 00:42:27.189 --> 00:42:27.409 Joe: Right. 00:42:27.419 --> 00:42:27.799 Right. 00:42:27.879 --> 00:42:30.699 Because now it's thought of it and is doing the work for you. 00:42:30.729 --> 00:42:31.049 Right. 00:42:31.389 --> 00:42:35.129 If it's just like, Oh, I forgot that like, Oh, live shows is a 00:42:35.129 --> 00:42:36.719 way to make money with podcasts. 00:42:36.759 --> 00:42:37.079 Yeah. 00:42:37.209 --> 00:42:40.209 But, and then I say, write a section on live, that's not like, that's not me 00:42:40.379 --> 00:42:40.629 Alastair: anymore. 00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:44.359 If, if you know that, if you know, live shows inside out and you get it 00:42:44.359 --> 00:42:48.455 to write that and they say, Oh, you know, and this is, this is actually 00:42:48.455 --> 00:42:53.129 my point is ultimately it should be about the human doing the QA, the 00:42:53.129 --> 00:42:55.769 quality assurance on the products. 00:42:55.999 --> 00:42:59.649 On the output and if we have the human doing the quality assurance, 00:42:59.709 --> 00:43:03.939 the key way on everything that it outputs and that human being signs 00:43:03.939 --> 00:43:08.749 off and says, yes, I, you know, I put my stamp of approval by by publishing 00:43:08.749 --> 00:43:11.049 this or doing whatever I do then. 00:43:12.504 --> 00:43:16.894 Like, surely that's, you've written it because you, you, you have brought 00:43:16.954 --> 00:43:20.874 most of the ideas to the table, you've edited it using whatever tool you 00:43:20.874 --> 00:43:25.574 used, be it, you know, a text editor or a magnet to use the ones and zeros 00:43:25.594 --> 00:43:28.514 manually, if you really want to do that, you know, but you've, you've 00:43:28.584 --> 00:43:33.514 edited it in some way and then you've, uh, you've, you've QA'd it by going 00:43:33.514 --> 00:43:34.744 over it and then you've published it. 00:43:35.299 --> 00:43:37.599 So, but, but I think, where's the, 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:38.609 Joe: where's the line there? 00:43:38.799 --> 00:43:40.529 I, so I think at that point, right? 00:43:41.019 --> 00:43:45.019 Cause are, so let me ask you, are, are your books all self published? 00:43:45.799 --> 00:43:49.759 Alastair: Uh, I have, uh, I have one book that is hybrid. 00:43:49.939 --> 00:43:52.399 One book is commercially published and the rest are self published. 00:43:52.849 --> 00:43:53.349 Joe: Okay, cool. 00:43:53.349 --> 00:43:57.009 So, so, you know, the commercial publishing process, which is author 00:43:57.009 --> 00:43:59.639 writes the book, send it to copy editor. 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:01.769 Or let's say prime editor one. 00:44:02.179 --> 00:44:04.589 If it's a technical book, then it goes to the technical editor. 00:44:05.089 --> 00:44:07.219 Then it goes back to prime editor and back to you. 00:44:07.219 --> 00:44:08.789 Then it goes to a second copy editor. 00:44:10.089 --> 00:44:14.449 The process you just described, in my mind, removes the author completely. 00:44:15.399 --> 00:44:16.569 ChatGPT wrote it. 00:44:16.579 --> 00:44:17.859 We're sending it to an editor. 00:44:17.859 --> 00:44:19.219 We're sending it to a tech editor. 00:44:19.219 --> 00:44:20.269 And then we 00:44:20.269 --> 00:44:20.869 Alastair: have a book. 00:44:21.529 --> 00:44:24.139 Yeah, I, I, I didn't remove it in, in my head. 00:44:24.139 --> 00:44:26.919 I didn't remove it because the person writing it was the person 00:44:26.919 --> 00:44:28.269 who gave those initial ideas. 00:44:28.509 --> 00:44:30.109 Just like in your example where. 00:44:30.324 --> 00:44:32.424 You, you wrote it and your editor fixed it. 00:44:35.064 --> 00:44:39.004 Joe: But, but like if, I mean, if I just say chat GPT, write a 00:44:39.004 --> 00:44:43.794 chapter and then I give it a quick once over and send it to my editor. 00:44:44.404 --> 00:44:45.934 Alastair: So what if it's not a quick once over? 00:44:46.244 --> 00:44:50.994 What if, what if you then say, uh, okay, section. 00:44:51.304 --> 00:44:54.784 8 should be removed. 00:44:54.784 --> 00:44:55.594 We don't need those. 00:44:55.924 --> 00:44:58.294 Um, you missed out on this topic entirely. 00:44:58.294 --> 00:44:59.644 Please add that into the list. 00:44:59.934 --> 00:45:03.084 And then I don't agree with what you said on, on section 1. 00:45:03.084 --> 00:45:03.094 4. 00:45:03.094 --> 00:45:04.434 So please update it to say this. 00:45:04.734 --> 00:45:08.744 And by the way, that's a very realistic sounding example of what I've done with. 00:45:09.069 --> 00:45:09.909 That kind of I put, 00:45:11.109 --> 00:45:14.159 Joe: I think at that point you might as well just write it yourself. 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:18.299 Alastair: Well, you see, my argument is no, you shouldn't because then like 00:45:18.329 --> 00:45:21.839 that, that's, that's like going to the farmer and saying, Hey, get out 00:45:21.839 --> 00:45:24.919 of that tractor and here's a spade and do your entire field manually. 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:26.909 It's so much quicker not to do that. 00:45:27.889 --> 00:45:34.309 Joe: I think it's, I think, I think that's a different knowledge. 00:45:34.459 --> 00:45:38.149 This is the hard part of what we're doing with our real world analogies, right? 00:45:39.299 --> 00:45:40.439 Knowledge work. 00:45:40.789 --> 00:45:46.009 Is very different from manual labor with knowledge work. 00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:49.359 It's, it is our knowledge that is the work. 00:45:49.609 --> 00:45:54.979 And so like by saying, chat, GBT, write something. 00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:56.309 Oh, I don't like these things. 00:45:56.309 --> 00:45:57.109 Change that. 00:45:57.669 --> 00:46:00.499 I still don't think the human did writing. 00:46:01.249 --> 00:46:03.369 They just kind of said, do, do that, right? 00:46:03.369 --> 00:46:04.219 It's the difference between the 00:46:04.219 --> 00:46:05.459 Alastair: visionary and the worker. 00:46:05.499 --> 00:46:09.009 It's it's my argument is maybe the human didn't write it, but they might as well 00:46:09.019 --> 00:46:12.539 have, because the output, the quality of the output is going to be the same. 00:46:13.304 --> 00:46:14.494 And, and I 00:46:14.544 --> 00:46:17.484 Joe: don't think the, I don't feel like the quality of the 00:46:17.484 --> 00:46:18.564 output is the same, right? 00:46:18.564 --> 00:46:25.374 Because you can't tell chat GPT, Hey, um, to drive home my point here. 00:46:25.384 --> 00:46:30.514 I want to tell a story about how, um, I refuse to record a podcast with 00:46:30.514 --> 00:46:31.904 somebody who wasn't wearing headphones. 00:46:32.439 --> 00:46:34.619 Tell that story, like I would tell it. 00:46:35.009 --> 00:46:36.559 Chat GPT could never do that. 00:46:37.209 --> 00:46:37.669 Right? 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:42.249 Alastair: So I think, like, Unless you give it the details of the story. 00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:42.829 Unless 00:46:42.829 --> 00:46:44.039 Joe: you write the story for it. 00:46:44.449 --> 00:46:46.199 Alastair: Well, you tell it the story, right? 00:46:46.449 --> 00:46:46.969 Sure. 00:46:47.439 --> 00:46:48.529 Joe: You write it and then Joe, 00:46:48.899 --> 00:46:51.499 Alastair: this is gonna be super long if we don't agree to disagree. 00:46:52.189 --> 00:46:55.359 Joe: We're gonna, yeah, we, we Respectfully agree to disagree 00:46:55.359 --> 00:46:55.639 Alastair: here. 00:46:55.699 --> 00:46:56.079 Yeah. 00:46:56.469 --> 00:46:57.679 I'm going to bring up a comment. 00:46:57.759 --> 00:46:59.309 Uh, we have a comment on a LinkedIn. 00:47:00.149 --> 00:47:03.679 Brian, I use chat GPT to research the fundamentals of my profession, 00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:04.659 which is management consulting. 00:47:04.689 --> 00:47:07.609 In my experience, most managers have never mastered the fundamentals. 00:47:07.969 --> 00:47:10.749 Much like many people, I include myself who never measured 00:47:10.749 --> 00:47:12.229 the fundamentals of golf. 00:47:12.289 --> 00:47:20.249 Um, yeah, so, uh, Researching fundamentals and researching and learning. 00:47:20.359 --> 00:47:26.359 So learning and ideation are, are, are something that we, we certainly can agree 00:47:26.359 --> 00:47:28.329 on that we should be using it for that. 00:47:29.759 --> 00:47:30.369 Absolutely. 00:47:30.764 --> 00:47:31.144 Absolutely. 00:47:31.194 --> 00:47:35.744 I think, I think where, where we differ is the level. 00:47:35.754 --> 00:47:39.504 And I like the term assistive AI, uh, because that's the way I think 00:47:39.504 --> 00:47:42.324 that we should be using, we should be using it to the heavy lifting, 00:47:42.514 --> 00:47:44.804 like in, in the terrible analogies. 00:47:44.804 --> 00:47:47.994 And just like all analogies, no, no analogy is perfect. 00:47:47.994 --> 00:47:51.844 But I think that, uh, you know, some analogies are better than others. 00:47:51.894 --> 00:47:54.964 And it's hard to find analogies for this just because of what it is. 00:47:55.344 --> 00:47:57.384 But, you know, um, yeah. 00:47:59.604 --> 00:48:04.234 The way that I see it, we should be using it to assist us and not replace us. 00:48:04.484 --> 00:48:09.664 And I think that it's going to be a very long time before the ideas 00:48:09.834 --> 00:48:11.604 that chat GPT can come up with. 00:48:12.124 --> 00:48:17.934 Or whatever AI any generative AI comes up with on its own from it's it's learning 00:48:17.934 --> 00:48:22.224 data set, whatever it's trained on are going to match what an expert will come 00:48:22.224 --> 00:48:29.914 up with what it will do is help us to reformat and read and edit and tweak and, 00:48:30.204 --> 00:48:34.324 um, take a blog post and, Hey, I wrote a, I wrote a blog post on this and I want 00:48:34.324 --> 00:48:35.884 to fit it into the middle of this book. 00:48:36.104 --> 00:48:39.484 Can you tell me how to, uh, You know, like, what do I need to add? 00:48:39.504 --> 00:48:40.634 What do I need to remove? 00:48:40.844 --> 00:48:44.244 So that this blog post can, can then become a chapter of this book. 00:48:44.244 --> 00:48:46.574 Here's the rest of the book, something like that. 00:48:46.574 --> 00:48:49.594 I feel again, I feel, well, you wrote the blog, the blog post, you wrote the book. 00:48:49.854 --> 00:48:52.544 All you're doing is you're using it as a very smart editor. 00:48:52.854 --> 00:48:55.414 I think in that scenario that, that, that it's absolutely 00:48:55.424 --> 00:48:56.334 fine to say you wrote that. 00:48:56.864 --> 00:48:58.214 That's, that, that's my perspective on 00:48:58.214 --> 00:48:58.504 Joe: that. 00:48:59.204 --> 00:49:03.604 Yeah, I think, I think we agree on use it for a very smart 00:49:03.624 --> 00:49:06.184 editor where we disagree is. 00:49:06.474 --> 00:49:11.664 It's how hands on either the editor is or how hands on we are. 00:49:12.194 --> 00:49:14.794 Um, yeah, I, I really think that's where we differ. 00:49:14.794 --> 00:49:23.194 And for me, it's, it's really about if you're, if you're looking for me, it's 00:49:23.194 --> 00:49:27.564 really about the, the, the personal connections and experiences, right? 00:49:28.044 --> 00:49:33.004 I, we can, I'm very confident that we'll never be able to tell AI unless 00:49:33.004 --> 00:49:37.594 there's a little, unless the humane pin is becomes a little brain chip. 00:49:37.784 --> 00:49:38.234 Right? 00:49:38.674 --> 00:49:47.094 Um, Which I just scared myself, um, we'll never be able to say, Hey, 00:49:47.104 --> 00:49:48.834 here's all of my personal experience. 00:49:48.834 --> 00:49:54.094 Now tell a story the way I, I think that it's still, that's still 00:49:54.164 --> 00:49:55.874 something that is uniquely human. 00:49:56.524 --> 00:49:56.864 Alastair: Yeah. 00:49:57.214 --> 00:49:59.764 And, and like, we shouldn't want to 00:49:59.764 --> 00:50:00.054 Joe: do that. 00:50:00.284 --> 00:50:00.564 Right. 00:50:00.564 --> 00:50:01.584 Yeah, absolutely. 00:50:01.614 --> 00:50:01.824 Right. 00:50:01.834 --> 00:50:02.064 That's. 00:50:02.344 --> 00:50:05.404 Yeah, that goes back to our, when do we lose our humanity? 00:50:05.434 --> 00:50:05.724 Right. 00:50:06.344 --> 00:50:06.654 So 00:50:07.474 --> 00:50:12.444 Alastair: who got, this has been a, has been a fun one and it's a bit deep. 00:50:12.804 --> 00:50:14.804 Um, Joe, we're recording this. 00:50:14.834 --> 00:50:15.694 We're live streaming. 00:50:15.904 --> 00:50:18.964 We're recording this for my podcast, the recognized authority and for 00:50:18.964 --> 00:50:20.404 your podcast, how I built this. 00:50:20.879 --> 00:50:21.639 How I built it. 00:50:22.189 --> 00:50:26.829 Um, can you, can you tell listeners and viewers where to find you? 00:50:27.619 --> 00:50:28.069 Joe: Yeah. 00:50:28.069 --> 00:50:32.529 So you can find all of my writing over at casabona. 00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:32.939 org. 00:50:33.219 --> 00:50:35.569 And of course my podcast is called how I built it. 00:50:36.099 --> 00:50:39.689 Um, and you can find that wherever podcasts are 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:40.599 Alastair: found. 00:50:41.229 --> 00:50:41.649 Awesome. 00:50:41.809 --> 00:50:44.089 And you can find me at the recognized authority. 00:50:44.259 --> 00:50:44.559 com. 00:50:45.009 --> 00:50:46.129 Thanks for tuning in. 00:50:46.999 --> 00:50:47.929 Joe: Thanks so much, everybody. 00:50:47.939 --> 00:50:48.609 Thanks Alistair. 00:50:49.869 --> 00:50:50.309 Alastair: Thanks Joe. 00:50:50.851 --> 00:50:51.421 Joe: All right. 00:50:51.421 --> 00:50:55.141 I really hope you enjoyed that ad free bonus episode. 00:50:55.711 --> 00:50:57.391 Of how I built it. 00:50:57.841 --> 00:50:59.611 Slash the recognized authority. 00:51:00.091 --> 00:51:05.551 Uh, you can find allister@therecognizedauthority.com. 00:51:05.581 --> 00:51:08.581 I'll put that in the description for this episode, and I'd 00:51:08.581 --> 00:51:10.381 love to hear what you think. 00:51:10.651 --> 00:51:14.371 Let me know your thoughts on AI in writing what you thought about my 00:51:14.371 --> 00:51:16.051 arguments and Alistair's arguments. 00:51:16.051 --> 00:51:20.281 You can find me on most social media at J Casabona, or you 00:51:20.281 --> 00:51:24.901 can email me joe@casabona.org, but that's it for this episode. 00:51:24.901 --> 00:51:26.071 Thanks so much for listening. 00:51:26.071 --> 00:51:27.091 And until next time. 00:51:27.421 --> 00:51:29.491 I get out there and build something.