Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a
podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else
who supports teachers in the classroom.
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that
help you go beyond education.
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at
least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
Only stuff that
works.
I have two guests today.
My guests are friends and colleagues from the ED Protocol community, and
today we're gonna be talking about writing and how ED protocols can assist
in writing as well as other topics in addition to just ED protocols.
My first guest is Josie Wozniak.
Josie is a former elementary teacher and currently teaches middle school
in Southern California where she specializes in ELA history and theater
arts with a passion for teaching and using educational technology.
She aims to inspire students to engage deeply with their learning.
Josie believes in using innovative tools to enhance writing skills and provide
immediate feedback outside the classroom.
She enjoys presenting to other teachers about her use of ED protocols
and hosts a bimonthly class for the ED Protocols plus platform.
She also serves as the lead ambassador for We will write.com.
My second guest is Kimberly Boey.
Kimberly is a instructional leader with over 30 years experience as
a classroom teacher, coach, and professional development facilitator.
She is passionate about making technology meaningful by aligning
tools with learning goals, and is an advocate for EDU protocols and
universal design UDL for learning.
Kim specializes in showing teachers how to streamline planning, personalize
instruction, and elevate student voice.
She believes in equipping educators with practical strategies that prepare
students not just for tests but for life.
She is also an ISTI certified educator.
If you are an EDU protocols, user or not, I think you're gonna enjoy this one.
Hello, Josie and Kim.
Welcome to Better Teaching Only stuff that works.
Kim: Hey Jean, how are you?
Hi.
Gene Tavernetti: Hi.
You know I am so happy to get you two together because I know you
guys have regular jobs and so I appreciate you taking a little
bit of your vacation time to chat.
And especially to chat about something that I think is so important.
You know, we've been having a few people in a row on a podcast talking about
literacy and, but we haven't talked about writing for quite a while, and I
wanted to talk to you two about that.
And just a little bit about how we met.
I had known of Kim.
I had worked in her district for 20 some years and we knew
of each other but had never met.
And Josie I knew through edgy protocols and her TikTok fame.
Josie: Oh my gosh, Jean.
Gene Tavernetti: But I met you through edgy protocols and a little bit of
background for the folks that we have some folks who are Edge Protocol listeners and
some folks who are not, who understand what EDU protocols are, and I'll ask
you to talk about that a little bit.
But we met through that.
And one of the things that was most intriguing to me about the EDU protocols
was how much writing that was done in the EDU protocols, because that was one of
the things that I saw as as I've worked with teachers, you know, over the years,
is that there's just a dearth of writing.
so, Kim you taught elementary for quite a while.
Can you talk about what you saw and what you continue to see as you work
with elementary teachers with respect to the amount of writing and the
quality of instruction that you see?
Kim: Sure.
So this is my 32nd year in education and I'm out of the classroom as a tech coach.
But for my years in the classroom, writing was always kind of like that
thing we got to last because it didn't.
Follow along with the curriculum that we were provided necessarily, or the district
brought in a new writing program for us to try out, and it never seemed to really
be something that was easy to implement.
And so it kind of took a backseat.
Like we were really good about teaching reading.
We were really good about teaching math and getting science and social studies,
but writing was always like the burden.
Because you have to provide the feedback.
You have to read through it and see if it makes sense.
And writing to me is like the ultimate comprehension check.
Like if you can write about it, that means you know it really well.
And so through my work with coaching teachers and being in classrooms and
modeling lessons even though my focus and title include technology most
of what I do ends up being writing.
And we do a lot of talking about things before we write them down so
that verbal rehearsal really makes writing much easier in the process.
And trying to incorporate the conventions in writing along with
the content in the writing and making sure that it is understandable.
Gene Tavernetti: And Josie, you work with middle schoolers?
Mm-hmm.
Which means, and I think you're working sixth grade this year.
So you're getting them fresh out of the elementary program.
Yes.
What do you see similar things that Kim just described or where do you
see where kids need extra work and what you focus on in your instruction?
Josie: so my students come to me from a variety of different elementary schools.
You know, that feed into my school either because they're in the neighborhood or
it's a school of choice kind of thing.
But we have several, I don't even know how many elementary schools
in my current district and.
I noticed trends, like some kids come better prepared, you know, depending
on what elementary school they went to or which teacher they had.
But I have noticed in the last couple of years that a lot of
my students are strong writers.
Like you can tell they've had instruction in.
Like, race paragraphs or CER kind of things, like they have those skills.
Some have them really well and others do not.
So I think it just depends on where they came from.
And so I'm, I've have to kind of find the happy medium and
see where I can kind of start.
And some kids already know and some kids don't, and I just kind
of have to help all of them.
So.
That's what I see as a sixth grade teacher.
And some students, I always do kind of a survey at the beginning of the year.
Some students had classes, you know, in elementary schools
where they wrote all the time.
And some, you know, not very often, like Kim was saying.
I do feel like it is the one thing that gets overlooked a lot because it is the
most challenging to teach and a lot of teachers aren't comfortable themselves.
With their own writing skills.
So I think that all kind of adds to it.
So I don't have like this element, oh, my kids were prepared because they
all came from this elementary school.
They're from a variety of different places.
And you can see you know, this school has strong writers.
This one didn't, you know, that kind of thing.
Well, you said, what do I notice?
I notice that a lot of kids come to class, my class with, they write like they text.
So it's a lot of breaking some really bad habits too, beginning of the school year.
Gene Tavernetti: So when you see kids prepared, or unprepared.
What does that, what's the profile of a kid with regards to their writing?
What does it look like if they're not prepared, if they're not writing
at grade level, whatever that means.
Josie: they have poor sentence structure.
They're not able to write a cohesive paragraph.
They don't have any understanding of.
You know, when a sentence starts and begins kind of a thing.
That's what I notice.
In terms of the students who need the most support the ones that are fluent or, you
know, more skilled, they're able to write.
You can see they've been trained, you know, they know what a hook is.
They know how to begin a paragraph.
They follow one idea.
So it's just kind of a mixed bag
Gene Tavernetti: terms.
So kind of what you're seeing, Kim, as you observe classrooms you know and do.
provide coaching for teachers?
Kim: Absolutely.
I see.
You know, I would expect a first grader to be able to write a sentence
with capitalization in a period, and then I have to go say that same
expectation, the second graders, third graders, fourth graders, et cetera.
And the amount of fragments and run-ons is crazy out there.
And even though we go over.
A sentence has someone doing something and identifying eight parts of speech,
all those things we're, I don't know, because I'm only in once a week.
I don't know what else is being done during the week to build those skills up.
Gene Tavernetti: Can we infer what's neglected?
I mean, that sounds, it, it sounds similar to what I see.
It seems like, like many times we're seeing the same type of instruction over
and over again and, I know you guys well enough that you'll tell me if I'm wrong,
but what, you know, my hypothesis is that, you know, if a third grader can't do the
capitalize the beginning of a sentence and there's some sort of punctuation at
the end, we go back to the very beginning.
But my thinking is because they're more mature now.
That could go more quickly.
We don't have to spend for the same amount of time you would
spend in first grade teaching that.
But that's what I see and we never catch up.
Kim: Correct.
And you know what, Jean, this isn't a current problem.
This is a problem thatI've been around my entire teaching career
of 32 years because this is not just new things that I'm seeing.
This is when I used to do technology training for a piece of software.
The top 10 lessons that teachers would make in grades three and up
were about prepositional phrases.
So why are prepositional phrases the stumbling block that.
Every teacher from grades three through 12, we're making a, an activity for kids
to learn about prepositional phrases like that shouldn't be that hard, you know?
So I think it really boils down to the amount of reps and the
practice that kids are getting.
Because teachers intently teach and.
lecturer at the front of the classroom and then the kids finally get to
show what they know through writing.
And we have 10 minutes left in the lesson to do that much writing.
And that's it.
Rather than having that be the focus of the lesson.
Gene Tavernetti: You were shaking your heads there, Josie about we
can catch 'em up more quickly.
Josie: Yeah.
So when my students come to me, like in sixth grade, I, you know, I have a set
of, I call 'em non-negotiables, right?
So I'm not gonna look at your writing if, you know, if your name isn't capitalized,
you know, you gotta fix some things first, you have to go through it, you know?
Because by the time they're in the sixth grade, that's something
that should be automatic, is it?
No.
Especially with proper nouns and things like that.
They are writing really fast and furiously especially if they're typing.
They don't think to look over what they've read or what they've written.
I mean, it's just a given.
The more the kids read, the better they write.
So, you know, when I'm doing like a beginning of the year writing
assessment, I can almost put, you know, kids in two piles.
You know, those who read and those who don't.
Because the more they read the better they're gonna write.
and the two are very connected, obviously, right?
So we write, so people read it.
We, you know, we read other people's writing, so.
I think that is also a thing.
You know, students are reading less and less all the time.
They say all those articles that are being published about how students
read less and less than they ever have.
I think that's a huge contributor to students who have poor writing skills.
Gene Tavernetti: how do we address that issue that students are reading less?
And I'm gonna start with Kim first, and then talk to Josie about how
you handled it in middle school.
But are kids reading less in their reading classes?
I spoke to somebody recently and said that a secondary person, a secondary
student, can go through the entire day without ever having to read.
Allowed, much less having to read.
So are we just reading less in, in our classrooms?
Kim: I think that it's been hard for teachers to find a balance
with all the other things put on top of them that they have to do.
So even though you might have a 45 minute language arts block, you don't
get to spend the 45 minutes doing that because you're dealing with X, Y,
and Z. So I think that's part of it.
I do think that they I. Importance placed on testing, especially
with different systems that measure students' reading ability.
Has then made the practice of reading not be fun.
And so there's, you know, if I'm, if I know I'm gonna have to read every time
I read, I'm gonna take a test on it.
That is not fun.
And so, am I gonna keep doing well on those?
Maybe not.
I, maybe there's no skin in the game for me to do well on that quiz, and I'm just
going to, you know, read it, do the quiz, read it, do the quiz, because no matter
what, I'm getting passed along and I'm finishing what my teacher asked me to do.
And I think sometimes, you know, we can be fun suckers as teachers.
We suck the fun outta things because of all the, tell me what you learned from it.
Why do we have to, you know, do the book, report on it, do the
this and that, and can we just read because we enjoyed it and get some
sort of discussion going about it?
I don't know.
That's where I think a lot of the edge protocols come into play that make.
Writing fun based on the reading that's been done.
And I have never had kids cheer to write before, like I have before using
some of the ed protocol lesson frames.
Gene Tavernetti: So I wanna transition into ED protocols in just a second, but I
wanna hear what Josie has to say about the amount of reading done in middle school.
Josie: When I was saying that they tend to read less, I was talking
about like recreational reading, so reading in their free time.
So I know for me, if I want them to understand that it's important and that
it's a valuable way to spend their time, I have to give them time in class to do it.
So my warmup every day is they have 10 minutes of reading.
This last, like I would say round they, I put them in book clubs
and they chose a book and I put them in groups based on the book.
And then they had a meeting like once a week, but every day they
had 10 minutes to read in class.
if I'm telling them that it's important that they read, they
have to be able to do it in class.
So even if it's just 10 minutes.
And one of the things I say in my back to school night, presentations
to my parents is, you know, if you, like Kim said, if you had to do a
report or a project for every book you read, how many books would you read?
You know, probably not a lot or any, you know, so my attitude is you
finish the book, you get another one.
And when I shifted to that mentality, I had read the book Whisper by Donly Miller,
who's like just somebody I looked up to.
She's written that.
And then the sequel is reading in the Wild where.
You know, the emphasis is on reading as many books as you can.
Not having a necessarily an assignment attached to everything, but talking
to your students about books, book, talking different books in your
classroom to show them what's available.
And when I started doing that, I had students much more engaged
by finding books to read.
Because if I looked excited about it or was excited about it, they tended,
they tend to kind of follow that.
Right.
So I just feel like I have to give them time if I tell them it's important.
Gene Tavernetti: And you do novels in your class, correct?
Josie: Yeah, I'm required to.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
And so are they reading those novels during class time as well?
Josie: We'll read 'em in class.
You know, sometimes We'll read them, you know, a chapter in class and
they have to do a chapter at home, or I'll read excerpts after they've
supposedly had read a chapter.
But yeah, we typically read them during class time.
Gene Tavernetti: So as we move from that as context and we move into the edge of
protocols where the kids are writing all the time the kids are asked to write all
the time about things that they read.
Could, Kim, could you just describe what EDU protocols are?
Maybe what they're not sure.
Kim: Sure.
So Edge, your protocols are a lesson frame for learning that you can kind
of rinse and repeat and use across all content areas and subject matters.
the essence of them are like.
You're going to do some activities with vocabulary because every subject area
has vocabulary and we might do something like what's called a fast and curious
to build up the repetitions of the kids learning the new vocabulary words.
And then we might use not an edge protocol, but we've adopted it or as the
Frere model because it's universal for understanding vocabulary really well.
And then we move into something where the ever familiar Venn diagram can
be altered for a cyber sandwich, where we would both be reading the
same article, taking notes on that.
And then the Venn diagram comes into when we compare the
notes to see what we both have.
Then we write our own individual summaries.
So those are just two or three examples of edger protocols.
there's a subtle.
Hint of fun in them, and it's kind of like a scavenger hunt of
information rather than this worksheet.
Like even for the eight parts of grammar, we have one called eight
parts where we give students a picture, usually something funny.
And they are describing the picture using.
All the eight parts of speech and then writing a paragraph.
So they are not just underlying the noun once in the verb
twice, like a typical worksheet.
So that's, the novelty is what makes it fun for kids, I think.
Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, I think there are two things that I'd
like to expand upon, and one is that.
You know, when you talk about the rinse and repeat, like, what in
the world does that look like?
And I think with respect to riding, you know, there's one
edgy protocol that's, it's a CER.
Claims evidence reasoning, which every teacher teaches, or every
teacher wants the kids to use.
And so, in what content area do you do it?
I know, Josie, you do it in both language arts and social studies.
Mm-hmm.
So you can do it in all the content areas.
It doesn't matter.
And the second thing, when you're talking about the fund, and this is what drew me
to it, initially is how you're suckering the kids into doing more writing.
Absolutely.
It's almost like, it's like you're tricking them into doing writing
and having to interact with another student to talk about it as well.
Right.
Kim: Well, and like a perfect example is the random emoji power paragraph.
So if I have told kids, Hey guys, we're gonna write a five
sentence paragraph right now.
Nobody would wanna be doing that.
That does not sound like fun at all.
But as soon as I say, Hey, you guys open up your computers, go to socratic.com
because you're gonna be typing there.
I'm gonna show you an emoji and I want you to write a sentence about it.
I don't want it to be, that's an emoji of a smiley face.
I want you to like.
Put some story to it and now I'm gonna show you another emoji and
I want you to connect those ideas.
So now we have creativity, we have critical thinking, so I'm bringing in
the four Cs, getting the rigor there.
And the kids have to connect those ideas.
We're still hopefully getting capitals and periods and writing is pursuing an idea.
And then we get to the end of that and we've got the five emojis
with five sentences represented.
And I pull it open on the screen for the kids to see, and I can
give collective feedback over some of the things I'm seeing.
Like, oh, the biggest one is kids don't capitalize I, because
they're, they text like that.
So we talk about that.
Or maybe they'll, there would be some places where they needed to put a comma
with the conjunction because they had two independent clauses or whatever.
All those, like the, maybe the tar thing I'm targeting in their writing
instruction or, and grammar rules.
And then I turn it out to them to vote so they get to read each other's.
So now their audience isn't just me as the teacher, their audience is everybody.
And so, other people are gonna read their writing.
And that's when it becomes really fun.
And then we can move that into the not show paragraph where they
then correct and edit a paragraph.
And now I've even done more and they're still all smiling about it and they.
Are happy about it.
And they're like, when are we doing that again?
Which that never happens when you say we're writing a five paragraph
or five sentence paragraph.
I.
Gene Tavernetti: You're shaking your heads there, Josie.
what's some of the ED protocols that you use for writing and a again, it is
for the people who know ED protocols.
And so and I think that's one of the other things that was so exciting to
me about the edge of protocols is for language arts teachers, especially
when it was time to revise or edit anything, where do you get the, you know,
authentic samples that kids wanna use.
Alright, Josie, I did a lot of talking there.
So you talk a little bit about how you use the ED protocols for your writing.
Josie: So I use, since I started using Edge protocols,
I do a lot more writing and.
In history than I did before.
So the ones I use the most often are probably the Iron Chef the cyber
sandwich, the three times challenge, whether it's point of view or genre, or.
Tone or whatever.
I some variation of the three times.
I use that one a lot in social studies.
I use the random emoji for social studies review, you know, where students
are creating like analogies based on the emojis to connect to history and
they're writing, you know, sentences.
What else?
I use the eight parts in both ELA and history to write summaries of learning.
Based on, not even a picture, but an article we read.
So those are the ones I use a lot.
I use Fast and Curious also, but that's not for writing.
But I, most of the Edge protocols contain.
Some kind of writing or a response to something they
read, which requires writing.
So, since I started using them, I feel like my students write a lot
every day, all week long whether it's, and I have the same students
for English and history, so I get them for a longer chunk of time every day.
So I feel like we're either writing an ELA or history every day.
Because they have to write.
Yeah.
Because the more they write, the better they're gonna get at it.
Mm-hmm.
I don't, I feel like also that's another issue is you know, WR writing
takes a long time to read and a lot of teachers, I think, feel like they
have to read everything a child writes.
And so it's harder to assign it, you know what I mean?
I think students should be writing.
I heard this once in a professional development, students need to be
writing four times more than you could possibly read or grade, you know,
because they need the constant practice.
So I feel like the edge protocols that I use help that a lot.
Like we just, we wrote a three times point of view for ancient Egypt,
you know, the day before the break, you know, before the winter break.
So we're, I'm always trying to figure out a way to include writing,
especially in my history class.
Gene Tavernetti: So we talked about a couple things CER claims, evidence,
reasoning, talked about Oh yeah.
Talked about point of view, three, three writing with during three points of view.
One of the things that I have seen and that people have told me that one of the
issues with writing and in, in curriculum that is purchased by a district is that.
There's not as much instruction as is needed, but there are just activities.
And so when you're talking about doing three points of view or claims, evidence,
reasoning, what sort of instruction needs to go into that before you assign?
Josie: Well, I think this is where teachers are using a lot of supplemental
material, you know, where they're, wherever they're getting it from,
whether it's, you know, from online or they're buying things or whatever.
I know that is where I have to supplement the most is writing because like the
curriculum I use which I don't wanna name has a lot of writing assignments or
suggestions for writing, but not really strong instruction on how to do it.
You know, the assignment might be, oh, write a nonfiction narrative,
you know, to respond to this tech.
And that's a whole unit in itself is, you know, writing a
nonfiction narrative or whatever.
So yeah, it's a lot of assignments or activity suggestions, but not
really any hardcore instruction.
Kim: It's more about the product than the process, I think.
Right.
Is what we, what I see in the canned curriculums.
Gene Tavernetti: Mm-hmm.
How about in the elementary?
Do you see it as better, worse than upper grades?
Kim: I see a lot of people using their own things to answer the question of how
to do it and how to make it work because it is not well thought out and well done.
You know, they'll whatever the theme is of the week, they'll try to have
the writing activity go with the theme.
And it's sometimes it's like, you know, kinda wonky with that.
Like it doesn't really relate and they're trying too hard to make it relate.
So it doesn't really do it.
And I, the, one of the biggest problems is if you have like a trimester system,
you're focused on one type of writing for the trimester or one genre of writing.
So we're in trimester one, we're gonna do informative trimester
two opinion, trimester three.
Is narrative is the typical pattern, something like that.
So that then at the end of the year.
When we have the state testing in third grade and up, it's a,
you know, random pick on which one you get to, to write about.
And if you get the one that we wrote about in trimester one and you've never
looked at it again, what are the chances that you're gonna do a good job on that?
So, I think we can do more with less in length.
Like for upper grade students, does everything have to go
to five paragraph essay?
Maybe not.
That's where like the three time genre comes in, where we get the gist so
that we're constantly figuring out like, what's the my purpose in writing?
Who's my audience in writing?
So what type of writing am I gonna do?
And I think that's more important to get the kids that meaningful
practice rather than get the five paragraph essay three times a year.
Josie: gonna say one thing that I think is helpful in terms of edger
protocols with writing is that.
You know, they're short bursts of writing.
They're not, you know, oh, we're gonna spend three days writing this essay.
You know, they're very short practices, low risk, and I think that's super
important in building like writing stamina and fluency, is that they
have lots of opportunities to practice in these like short bursts.
So when they look at, you know, maybe the slide or a paper copy of like the
three times challenge or whatever.
They're not seeing like a blank document.
It's a, you know, it's a box and for whatever reason.
Writing in like a small box that's contained and they know they only have
to put one kind of thing in there is very, what's the word I'm looking for?
It's like a relief to them.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it hits different.
So, you know, every time I have my students you know, do like a three
times CER and they're writing, you know.
Three claims, or there's one claim and they have to write about three
reasons or whatever, you know, they'll do it in, you know, 20, 25 minutes.
And then when it's all said and done, I'll look at them and I'll
say, you just wrote an essay.
It's just in boxes, you know?
Right.
Let's slap an intro and a conclusion on it.
And then you've got, you know, a five paragraph essay or whatever.
So, there's, so when they realize that it's motivating and, it's motivating for
them to see like, oh, I can write, you know, an essay or whatever, but it, when
it's broken down like that in these little boxes or whatever it just hits different
and they feel more confident because they know they only have to put, you
know, they evidence in this box and they only, they have to put this in this box.
And it's not a blank document where they have to just.
You know,
Kim: fill the page right
Josie: from nothing.
Yeah.
Kim: That's, I used the mini report.
Similar.
Yes.
Mini report.
I forgot about that one too.
Our national park project, so, I didn't tell 'em they were gonna be
writing three informational paragraphs.
I just said, you are gonna get information, write some information
about the flora, the fauna, and a natural resource in your park.
And all of a sudden they had three minute report paragraphs, so they had.
The body paragraphs of an essay and I'm like, yeah, essay writing.
That doesn't hurt.
Josie: I forgot
Kim: about many
Josie: reports too.
I use that one.
I just used that one couple weeks ago.
So, and I'm gonna do another one in the next unit.
You know, I try to do them, whether it's in ELA or history,
I alternate, I flip flop.
It just kind of depends.
But the mini report is fantastic just because.
You know, if you tell them they're gonna write a report and then they have to
put some notes in these little boxes and then use those notes to write a
paragraph, they see that writing is not as intimidating as they think it is.
Kim: Mm-hmm.
Josie: That's what I think it helps with.
Gene Tavernetti: Again, I'm gonna go back to my characterization as we fool
them into making writing accessible to them that it's not this big thing
that we, that it's been made out to be.
And I'm, and I know listeners that we are using.
You know, fast and curious and mini report and all of these different
names for the edge of protocols.
But I'm telling you, you can go on YouTube and there's probably hundreds
of videos that you can see about each of these things that we're talking about.
And we'll have more in the show notes about where where you can go
for these, because I think that, as we mentioned earlier, it's not only
practice, it's not only writing, but it is, um, it's not naive practice.
Just go write.
It's not that It is writing with a purpose.
It's deliberate practice.
There's criteria the you know, as you said, Josie, we can't read all the
writing that students need to read, but.
I know we've been using some AI.
To help with that.
So can you talk about Josie start with you, how you're using some AI tools to
help with writing and then we'll talk to Kim about in the younger grades.
Josie: There are so many platforms.
I mean, so many, and I was at the point where I'm trying all of them to
figure out what I really wanna use.
You know what I mean?
And each of them have their own purposes.
So one platform I really love is we will write.com.
Because it does exactly what I said before, it gives them short
bursts of practice, you know, over several little writing challenges.
It provides the teacher with feedback to give to the class in general.
Kids are, it's gamified basically.
So I like to use, it's a gamified writing platform where kids are writing
in a series of challenges and then they're, you know, they're on teams and
then their writing is paired together.
And we have to vote on the best ones.
But as you're looking at them as a class the AI in, in the tool.
Gives the teacher specific things to focus on.
Like, it'll highlight things in each of the writing.
Like, oh, here's where they used the simile and here's where they used
hyperbole, and this is where they used you know, a an engaging hook or whatever.
So for me, that helps the whole class and it kind of creates a community of writers.
So then the next challenge they go through, they will try to
do the same kinds of things.
In the models they saw.
So I like that for group practice, if I'm going to have them use a tool to
get individual feedback and to revise there's snorkel and there's class
companion which are more individualized, so they get feedback from them.
And there's some things about that that I love and also some things I don't.
So.
But it does help them get that instant feedback.
They're trying to improve their score or the outcome they get.
And it's super motivating and I feel like it's like 30 of me, you
know, standing next to each kid, telling them how to make it better.
Gene Tavernetti: So Josie, let's talk about because the people who
are going to try it are gonna try it.
Let's talk about what you don't like about it to get that out in the open.
Okay.
Josie: Oh, do you want me to tell you?
Okay.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah,
Josie: absolutely.
What I don't like is students get so focused on getting the highest score
that they almost become obsessive, like they're revising it 20 times and you
know, and then that sometimes makes.
The lesson way longer than I wanted.
So what I realized I have to do is you know, give them kind of a limit.
Like once you've revised it three or four times, you know,
that's enough or whatever.
Sometimes the AI settings are too high for my students.
So if the tool can allow you to adjust the feedback level,
that would, that's helpful.
I think snorkel does that, but.
That's what I've noticed is they get so obsessed with like,
getting the perfect score.
And I'm glad they care.
It's just, it gets a little it's discouraging sometimes also, you
know, we talk about how in my class, how AI is not always right.
You know, it's not always a hundred percent.
So they are, you know, getting this feedback.
But it's not necessarily what I told them to do or they've done
it and it's wrong or you know, so it's not always a hundred percent.
And that's what I tell the students.
I said, you know, I'm the one who's gonna read it.
You're just getting some feedback ahead of time.
If you don't agree with the feedback, you don't have to use it.
But it's there for you.
Right.
So I just worry about how obsessive they become about trying to make it perfect.
well, at the same time, I feel like that.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Kim, how about in the elementary grades?
Kim: So in the elementary grade grades, it looks a little bit different.
I have used it with second graders for descriptive writing.
We actually went into Padlet and they typed in a descriptive sentence.
I think they were disguising a Turkey or a pig, or it was from some story,
but it was descriptive language.
And so they went into the AI image generator in Padlet.
Typed in their sentence to see, is that the image you wanted to create?
Oh, it's not, you know, it's not wearing a red jumper.
Well, did you tell it to wear a red jumper?
Or whatever it may be.
So they were kind of, thinking about word choice and descriptive words.
So that was really fun to get kind of their.
Their image brought to life for them.
And then in third grade, one of the teachers used school AI
where she set up a custom space.
'cause you launch a space, a custom space.
And she told, AI tool, you're going to be giving feedback to the students
on their paragraphs, but you are not gonna rewrite it for them.
You're gonna provide basically something good that they did and
two ways they can improve it.
So she was really direct in what kind of feedback the kids would be receiving.
And then the kids copy and pasted one paragraph at a time into school ai.
And then saw what they needed to fix, read the feedback they were
given, and then they went back to their paragraph and fixed it up.
So, I liked that kind of working in tandem.
Yeah.
So it wasn't just like plopping in the whole essay saying, rewrite this.
For me, it was showing the responsible use of ai which is something
very important in my district.
We've actually, something that your listeners may wanna look up is.
A Google extension called AI Trust you, where students are kind of owning
up to what they're using AI for.
And so, they can, you know, admit what they're using it and so we have a good
idea of where the product came from.
Gene Tavernetti: You know, I'm going to, this is not news to you as I share this
with you folks, and that is, I think.
In the two answers that you folks gave, I think we're at least up to
four or five different platforms.
Josie: Mm-hmm.
Gene Tavernetti: And I think that is an issue.
Mm-hmm.
that is an issue.
We were working with a school recently and we walked through
classrooms and there were like 15 different platforms being used.
And again, people who are interested in using platforms will find AI.
We'll find something.
People who aren't will say, Jesus, how am I?
You know, there's 15.
What?
How am I gonna choose?
Yeah.
So I don't want, you don't need to answer that, but I just wanted to bring
that up because that is another issue as we move forward with technology.
You know, in schools is how do we deal with the multiple platforms?
Kim: I think a lot of them will get eaten up by each other, and you'll see
a lot more combining so that you, we won't need that many in the long run.
And I think that teachers will find what is the valuable piece,
like, I know that I would not be able to teach without snorkel.
Because of the great feedback it gives, the multiple modalities I can put into
snorkel and the fact that it allows my kids that verbal rehearsal before writing
if I can't listen to them or they don't have a partner that day or whatever
because of the way the tool works.
So, I think that.
While it's super fun to have, like I am very blessed.
I have my pick of many different things in my district, but I have some that I
pretty much just are my go-to and that other ones I don't use at all anymore.
Josie: And I am figuring out what my go-tos are, you know?
So I try to use all of them and experiment with all of them.
And then I get, I ask the students like, which did you prefer?
But there are too many.
And so I think if you.
My goal for this year was to figure out what I really like
and what I'm gonna stick to.
And I'm doing that slowly because there are so many, but each, you know,
each has a different purpose really, you know, or I could, you know, I
could put a graphic organizer and snorkel but I can't upload a lot of
reading to it, which I wish I could.
I can upload readings to give context in class companion, but I can't put
graphic organizers in it if I want them to fill out a graphic organizer.
So, you know, finding one that has all of it would be great.
Gene Tavernetti: And I think Kim again, as an outsider to these as I just read about
the next thing that people are using and the next thing that people are using you
use the term they're eating each other.
But they're certainly competing with each other.
Oh yeah.
Like, oh, this one has this, we're gonna have that.
Yeah.
And then it comes out with the new super version.
And then now is snorkel, is that a free version or you just have to wear the
snorkel and then you can get it for free?
Kim: There's a teacher version that I believe.
Is free.
I'm not sure on all of that, but I do, I'm 99% sure there's a free teacher version.
Gene Tavernetti: Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think we are gonna go into full disclosure here mode
for a second, and that is the three of us are currently writing a book
about ED protocols and addressing.
Some of the issues that we talked about right now and a big issue is the fact
that technology doesn't teach for you.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
You still have to, you still have to do the teaching.
And, um, anything else Kim, you wanna say about that book?
Kim: No, I think you, it's gonna be really helpful for people to take
their teaching to the next step.
Using, you know, as teachers, we there's a lot of things that we can
complain about the planning time, the time, the grading time, all the things.
And I. As much as I love being a teacher, I see the teacher
martyrdom happen out there a lot.
And so there's some things that you can do to really help a, alleviate the
things that are stressful as a teacher.
But they take time to learn and they, but they will benefit you and
your kids and that's where as your protocols come in and hopefully it's
something that will, your listeners can.
Find resources for, we've got a whole Facebook community that
jean's gonna link in there.
And I actually have a little, well, it was supposed to be a one pager, but it
turned out to be a little bit longer than that about how we can fix the flaws in
writing instruction with edge protocols.
Gene Tavernetti: Okay,
Josie: That was good.
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
Okay.
You know what, we can go on forever.
Do you guys have any questions for me?
Josie: Yes, I do.
So you're an instructional coach, Jean?
Yes.
So what, when you're talking to teachers about writing
instruction, what do you face?
Any resistance or what do you see is, you know, an issue
when you are coaching teachers?
Gene Tavernetti: I don't know if I'd call it resistance necessarily, but
I think there's one thing that I see.
Consistently missing, and that is a piece of writing is
done like, for example, A CER.
Okay.
About, about some content before that's done, that the students
know what a good CER looks like.
What are the components, if you were to read this, to have the students
read it and based on the information that you gave them, the criteria
that you gave them for what should be in a good claim, can they do now?
Can they evaluate the claim?
Okay.
Can they evaluate this?
They have to know what
Josie: a claim is, first of all.
Exactly.
They have to know the difference between a statement and a claim.
That's one of the first lessons I usually do.
Gene Tavernetti: so that would be one of those things that I think so often
we jump to the output because and I'm gonna blame curriculum a lot of times
is that here's an assignment to do and then the assignment doesn't go well.
Because there wasn't enough instruction.
And so what's the output?
It's usually a below grade level type of writing.
It's a very rudimentary type of writing.
So, so that's always difficult to slow the teachers down in the writing
process to do what you just described.
Like what's the difference between a claim and a statement what's the relationship
between the claim and the evidence?
What's the relationship between, you know, all of those things.
And actually, be given samples just like it's a nacho.
And now we're gonna go back and say what's good, what needs to be fixed?
How can we fix it?
And because I think it goes back to what you were saying about the
your kids getting AI to evaluate a paragraph and then give them feedback,
and now they wanna go change it.
Okay.
Well one of the things that I would want at some point.
And I don't know if we talked about this before or not, Josie is have the kid
maybe after the fifth try, you know, have the kid come to the teacher and
say, you can't move, go on until you evaluate the feedback that you were given.
Right.
You know?
Well, that's
Josie: the thing, that's the thing that I love about those AI
tools is that, you know, they're reading the feedback and then.
Trying to figure out how to apply it.
And that's when they're using those tools.
That's where I find, that's what I'm doing.
I'm walking around the room helping them to understand what the feedback is
telling them, and I love that part of it.
But yes, at some point they need to stop and get some real
Gene Tavernetti: help, you know, well, prove that they know what
the feedback is, you know, because I could imagine somebody, um.
You know, you wanna hang a picture.
It is, it's crooked, and somebody standing across the room says, okay, little more
to the right, little more to the oh.
Little more this way, little more that way.
And the person moving the picture doesn't know what's going on.
They're just doing what they're told.
So they're getting feedback, making changes without any knowledge.
Or understanding of the changes that, that they make.
And so whether they're doing AI or not,
That's the second piece I think is getting teachers to ask the kids to evaluate what
they have done or to evaluate a classmates based on the criteria that's been given
and usually they've given good criteria.
But the kids don't have to generate product based on that criteria or
evaluate based on that criteria.
So those are the two things that it's not hard to convince them.
I think it's just.
Many of them have never seen it broken down like that and so they
just get frustrated 'cause the kids don't get better and because they're
only writing, you know, a few times a quarter, the kids don't get better
and then they go to the next year and the next year where reviewing the
same writing process all over again.
Josie: I think it would be helpful if districts.
I know mine doesn't, you know, I'm sure there are that do where there's
like one, they've adopted some kind of writing program and it's used
consistently all the way through, you know, so everyone has a common language.
Everybody's calling things the same thing.
You know, I find when they come to me from elementary schools,
depending on where they were, some call it like a race paragraph.
Some call it a CER, some call it an ace paragraph.
You know, it's not.
Consistent.
And that is partially because, well, mostly because teachers are having
to supplement with so much other stuff because it's not embedded.
Right.
So I think that would, I think that would improve a, I think that would
help overall improvement of writing
Gene Tavernetti: As you're saying that Josie, you know what I'm imagining?
John Lennon you know, singing, I know I'm a Dreamer, Because
I don't know how we do that.
You're not the only
Josie: one.
Gene Tavernetti: I don't know how we do that in our country.
I don't know how we do that in our state.
I don't know how we do that in our counties.
We tried that
Kim: In a previous district I was in with a writing program and
there was that common language.
There was the common color coding.
There was all that, and then there was.
The middle school people, you know, didn't like the cookie cutter ness of it.
They didn't like they disagreed with some of the color coding, and so like, you
weren't gonna make any of them happy.
And so then they're changing the color coding.
But like, all the kids come to them knowing this, so.
And while I understand where you're coming from, Josie, I don't know
that it's possible because those of us, like in elementary, our goal is
like complete sentences, a coherent thought, and you know, all that.
And then.
In high school there's something like completely different.
And I know my one son had like a quiz on MLA format that he took like
10 times until he got MLA format.
Correct.
And I don't know that's the hill to die on these days.
You know, like we can have like MLA format, we can pretty much go.
Ask a website to put it in ml MLA format for us.
And does that really mean I know what I'm talking about?
So, that's a good point.
And writing is that tool for communication.
We do a lot more.
Oral communication I think nowadays.
And less on that writing communication unless they're short bursts in kind of
those emails to get your point across type of thing, which are important.
But I don't see like the essay writing happening as much anymore in real life.
Gene Tavernetti: Ladies, thank you so much.
And before we go, Kim, it's gonna be in the show notes,
but what is the Facebook group?
Kim: It is called the Edge of Protocols community, and we
have almost 25,000 members.
It's been called the Happiest Place on the internet, and some people reactivate
their Facebook just to join us.
Yeah.
People post all sorts of questions.
You get help almost immediately from one of the authors or other kind of
like, I'll call 'em power users and.
It's just a really genuine, great place to be.
People sharing
Josie: templates and things like that.
It's what a PLC should be.
Gene Tavernetti: And speaking of every
Josie: template I make, I put on there
Gene Tavernetti: And Josie, you also share, you have a nice audience on TikTok.
What is your handle?
Is that the right thing?
Is that what the kids say?
Is they still say a handle?
I guess.
I know I'm
Josie: too old for, I'm too old for TikTok, but I use it and.
I do like 62nd PDs basically, It's at JWA teaches that's my handle,
and I just talk about what I'm doing and sometimes I think, oh
gosh, I don't wanna do this anymore.
It's so embarrassing.
But then I get a message saying, thank you so much, you've really helped me.
And then I just keep doing it because of that.
Gene Tavernetti: So They're great.
Thank you Josie.
Thank you Kim.
And we will talk to you soon.
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