WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.581 --> 00:00:06.841 Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a 00:00:06.841 --> 00:00:11.051 podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else 00:00:11.051 --> 00:00:12.871 who supports teachers in the classroom. 00:00:13.701 --> 00:00:17.841 This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that 00:00:17.841 --> 00:00:19.701 help you go beyond education. 00:00:20.121 --> 00:00:24.471 Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:24.971 --> 00:00:27.731 I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. 00:00:27.821 --> 00:00:31.211 And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at 00:00:31.211 --> 00:00:35.711 least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. 00:00:36.331 --> 00:00:38.881 A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. 00:00:39.216 --> 00:00:40.056 Only stuff that 00:00:40.056 --> 00:00:40.586 works. 00:00:41.388 --> 00:00:42.888 I have two guests today. 00:00:43.338 --> 00:00:48.091 My guests are friends and colleagues from the ED Protocol community, and 00:00:48.091 --> 00:00:52.681 today we're gonna be talking about writing and how ED protocols can assist 00:00:52.741 --> 00:00:56.704 in writing as well as other topics in addition to just ED protocols. 00:00:57.365 --> 00:00:59.615 My first guest is Josie Wozniak. 00:00:59.705 --> 00:01:03.802 Josie is a former elementary teacher and currently teaches middle school 00:01:03.802 --> 00:01:07.822 in Southern California where she specializes in ELA history and theater 00:01:07.822 --> 00:01:11.516 arts with a passion for teaching and using educational technology. 00:01:11.816 --> 00:01:14.951 She aims to inspire students to engage deeply with their learning. 00:01:15.521 --> 00:01:19.631 Josie believes in using innovative tools to enhance writing skills and provide 00:01:19.631 --> 00:01:21.995 immediate feedback outside the classroom. 00:01:21.995 --> 00:01:25.445 She enjoys presenting to other teachers about her use of ED protocols 00:01:25.758 --> 00:01:29.628 and hosts a bimonthly class for the ED Protocols plus platform. 00:01:29.949 --> 00:01:34.179 She also serves as the lead ambassador for We will write.com. 00:01:34.796 --> 00:01:36.656 My second guest is Kimberly Boey. 00:01:36.866 --> 00:01:40.334 Kimberly is a instructional leader with over 30 years experience as 00:01:40.334 --> 00:01:44.144 a classroom teacher, coach, and professional development facilitator. 00:01:44.548 --> 00:01:47.728 She is passionate about making technology meaningful by aligning 00:01:47.728 --> 00:01:52.210 tools with learning goals, and is an advocate for EDU protocols and 00:01:52.210 --> 00:01:54.395 universal design UDL for learning. 00:01:54.755 --> 00:01:58.205 Kim specializes in showing teachers how to streamline planning, personalize 00:01:58.205 --> 00:02:00.185 instruction, and elevate student voice. 00:02:00.335 --> 00:02:04.415 She believes in equipping educators with practical strategies that prepare 00:02:04.415 --> 00:02:06.665 students not just for tests but for life. 00:02:07.043 --> 00:02:10.313 She is also an ISTI certified educator. 00:02:10.587 --> 00:02:15.719 If you are an EDU protocols, user or not, I think you're gonna enjoy this one. 00:02:16.320 --> 00:02:17.550 Hello, Josie and Kim. 00:02:17.550 --> 00:02:20.605 Welcome to Better Teaching Only stuff that works. 00:02:21.644 --> 00:02:22.724 Kim: Hey Jean, how are you? 00:02:22.724 --> 00:02:23.354 Hi. 00:02:23.804 --> 00:02:24.164 Gene Tavernetti: Hi. 00:02:24.164 --> 00:02:30.094 You know I am so happy to get you two together because I know you 00:02:30.094 --> 00:02:33.154 guys have regular jobs and so I appreciate you taking a little 00:02:33.154 --> 00:02:35.079 bit of your vacation time to chat. 00:02:36.074 --> 00:02:40.184 And especially to chat about something that I think is so important. 00:02:40.234 --> 00:02:45.064 You know, we've been having a few people in a row on a podcast talking about 00:02:45.064 --> 00:02:49.684 literacy and, but we haven't talked about writing for quite a while, and I 00:02:49.684 --> 00:02:52.654 wanted to talk to you two about that. 00:02:53.044 --> 00:02:56.874 And just a little bit about how we met. 00:02:57.254 --> 00:02:58.934 I had known of Kim. 00:02:59.024 --> 00:03:02.744 I had worked in her district for 20 some years and we knew 00:03:02.744 --> 00:03:04.394 of each other but had never met. 00:03:04.874 --> 00:03:09.984 And Josie I knew through edgy protocols and her TikTok fame. 00:03:10.524 --> 00:03:11.484 Josie: Oh my gosh, Jean. 00:03:13.464 --> 00:03:16.024 Gene Tavernetti: But I met you through edgy protocols and a little bit of 00:03:16.024 --> 00:03:20.084 background for the folks that we have some folks who are Edge Protocol listeners and 00:03:20.084 --> 00:03:23.954 some folks who are not, who understand what EDU protocols are, and I'll ask 00:03:23.954 --> 00:03:25.334 you to talk about that a little bit. 00:03:25.384 --> 00:03:26.644 But we met through that. 00:03:26.674 --> 00:03:32.164 And one of the things that was most intriguing to me about the EDU protocols 00:03:32.344 --> 00:03:38.354 was how much writing that was done in the EDU protocols, because that was one of 00:03:38.354 --> 00:03:42.754 the things that I saw as as I've worked with teachers, you know, over the years, 00:03:42.844 --> 00:03:44.914 is that there's just a dearth of writing. 00:03:45.484 --> 00:03:49.134 so, Kim you taught elementary for quite a while. 00:03:49.494 --> 00:03:54.114 Can you talk about what you saw and what you continue to see as you work 00:03:54.114 --> 00:03:57.564 with elementary teachers with respect to the amount of writing and the 00:03:57.564 --> 00:03:58.924 quality of instruction that you see? 00:03:59.604 --> 00:04:00.174 Kim: Sure. 00:04:00.424 --> 00:04:05.464 So this is my 32nd year in education and I'm out of the classroom as a tech coach. 00:04:05.764 --> 00:04:10.594 But for my years in the classroom, writing was always kind of like that 00:04:10.954 --> 00:04:14.824 thing we got to last because it didn't. 00:04:15.754 --> 00:04:21.154 Follow along with the curriculum that we were provided necessarily, or the district 00:04:21.154 --> 00:04:26.014 brought in a new writing program for us to try out, and it never seemed to really 00:04:26.014 --> 00:04:28.834 be something that was easy to implement. 00:04:28.954 --> 00:04:31.234 And so it kind of took a backseat. 00:04:31.234 --> 00:04:33.304 Like we were really good about teaching reading. 00:04:33.304 --> 00:04:37.114 We were really good about teaching math and getting science and social studies, 00:04:37.339 --> 00:04:39.544 but writing was always like the burden. 00:04:39.859 --> 00:04:41.719 Because you have to provide the feedback. 00:04:41.719 --> 00:04:44.839 You have to read through it and see if it makes sense. 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:47.899 And writing to me is like the ultimate comprehension check. 00:04:47.899 --> 00:04:50.839 Like if you can write about it, that means you know it really well. 00:04:51.109 --> 00:04:56.419 And so through my work with coaching teachers and being in classrooms and 00:04:56.419 --> 00:05:02.109 modeling lessons even though my focus and title include technology most 00:05:02.109 --> 00:05:03.639 of what I do ends up being writing. 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:08.659 And we do a lot of talking about things before we write them down so 00:05:08.659 --> 00:05:13.579 that verbal rehearsal really makes writing much easier in the process. 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:18.509 And trying to incorporate the conventions in writing along with 00:05:18.509 --> 00:05:22.109 the content in the writing and making sure that it is understandable. 00:05:23.069 --> 00:05:25.349 Gene Tavernetti: And Josie, you work with middle schoolers? 00:05:25.979 --> 00:05:26.069 Mm-hmm. 00:05:26.309 --> 00:05:28.799 Which means, and I think you're working sixth grade this year. 00:05:29.729 --> 00:05:33.089 So you're getting them fresh out of the elementary program. 00:05:33.869 --> 00:05:33.959 Yes. 00:05:34.410 --> 00:05:38.230 What do you see similar things that Kim just described or where do you 00:05:38.230 --> 00:05:44.650 see where kids need extra work and what you focus on in your instruction? 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:50.450 Josie: so my students come to me from a variety of different elementary schools. 00:05:51.035 --> 00:05:56.605 You know, that feed into my school either because they're in the neighborhood or 00:05:56.605 --> 00:05:58.375 it's a school of choice kind of thing. 00:05:58.375 --> 00:06:02.785 But we have several, I don't even know how many elementary schools 00:06:02.785 --> 00:06:04.825 in my current district and. 00:06:05.875 --> 00:06:10.165 I noticed trends, like some kids come better prepared, you know, depending 00:06:10.165 --> 00:06:13.435 on what elementary school they went to or which teacher they had. 00:06:13.885 --> 00:06:17.515 But I have noticed in the last couple of years that a lot of 00:06:17.515 --> 00:06:20.175 my students are strong writers. 00:06:20.235 --> 00:06:23.565 Like you can tell they've had instruction in. 00:06:24.435 --> 00:06:31.145 Like, race paragraphs or CER kind of things, like they have those skills. 00:06:31.495 --> 00:06:33.775 Some have them really well and others do not. 00:06:33.835 --> 00:06:36.985 So I think it just depends on where they came from. 00:06:37.045 --> 00:06:41.485 And so I'm, I've have to kind of find the happy medium and 00:06:41.485 --> 00:06:43.435 see where I can kind of start. 00:06:43.435 --> 00:06:46.915 And some kids already know and some kids don't, and I just kind 00:06:46.915 --> 00:06:48.475 of have to help all of them. 00:06:48.895 --> 00:06:49.495 So. 00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:53.020 That's what I see as a sixth grade teacher. 00:06:53.330 --> 00:06:56.370 And some students, I always do kind of a survey at the beginning of the year. 00:06:56.370 --> 00:06:59.490 Some students had classes, you know, in elementary schools 00:06:59.490 --> 00:07:00.660 where they wrote all the time. 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:03.660 And some, you know, not very often, like Kim was saying. 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:09.750 I do feel like it is the one thing that gets overlooked a lot because it is the 00:07:09.750 --> 00:07:13.860 most challenging to teach and a lot of teachers aren't comfortable themselves. 00:07:14.170 --> 00:07:15.880 With their own writing skills. 00:07:16.210 --> 00:07:18.670 So I think that all kind of adds to it. 00:07:18.700 --> 00:07:22.570 So I don't have like this element, oh, my kids were prepared because they 00:07:22.570 --> 00:07:23.920 all came from this elementary school. 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:26.080 They're from a variety of different places. 00:07:26.080 --> 00:07:29.900 And you can see you know, this school has strong writers. 00:07:29.900 --> 00:07:31.670 This one didn't, you know, that kind of thing. 00:07:31.910 --> 00:07:33.230 Well, you said, what do I notice? 00:07:33.230 --> 00:07:38.425 I notice that a lot of kids come to class, my class with, they write like they text. 00:07:38.905 --> 00:07:44.335 So it's a lot of breaking some really bad habits too, beginning of the school year. 00:07:45.145 --> 00:07:48.853 Gene Tavernetti: So when you see kids prepared, or unprepared. 00:07:48.903 --> 00:07:52.263 What does that, what's the profile of a kid with regards to their writing? 00:07:52.263 --> 00:07:55.653 What does it look like if they're not prepared, if they're not writing 00:07:55.653 --> 00:07:57.393 at grade level, whatever that means. 00:07:57.973 --> 00:07:59.953 Josie: they have poor sentence structure. 00:08:00.353 --> 00:08:02.993 They're not able to write a cohesive paragraph. 00:08:03.493 --> 00:08:05.023 They don't have any understanding of. 00:08:06.028 --> 00:08:08.638 You know, when a sentence starts and begins kind of a thing. 00:08:08.938 --> 00:08:10.438 That's what I notice. 00:08:10.468 --> 00:08:16.328 In terms of the students who need the most support the ones that are fluent or, you 00:08:16.328 --> 00:08:18.758 know, more skilled, they're able to write. 00:08:19.388 --> 00:08:22.718 You can see they've been trained, you know, they know what a hook is. 00:08:23.108 --> 00:08:25.118 They know how to begin a paragraph. 00:08:25.488 --> 00:08:26.928 They follow one idea. 00:08:27.138 --> 00:08:28.878 So it's just kind of a mixed bag 00:08:29.748 --> 00:08:29.898 Gene Tavernetti: terms. 00:08:30.098 --> 00:08:34.038 So kind of what you're seeing, Kim, as you observe classrooms you know and do. 00:08:34.483 --> 00:08:36.043 provide coaching for teachers? 00:08:36.373 --> 00:08:37.183 Kim: Absolutely. 00:08:37.183 --> 00:08:37.903 I see. 00:08:37.953 --> 00:08:41.553 You know, I would expect a first grader to be able to write a sentence 00:08:41.793 --> 00:08:46.383 with capitalization in a period, and then I have to go say that same 00:08:46.383 --> 00:08:49.743 expectation, the second graders, third graders, fourth graders, et cetera. 00:08:49.808 --> 00:08:53.973 And the amount of fragments and run-ons is crazy out there. 00:08:54.363 --> 00:08:56.018 And even though we go over. 00:08:56.733 --> 00:09:01.933 A sentence has someone doing something and identifying eight parts of speech, 00:09:01.933 --> 00:09:06.903 all those things we're, I don't know, because I'm only in once a week. 00:09:07.143 --> 00:09:11.103 I don't know what else is being done during the week to build those skills up. 00:09:11.974 --> 00:09:13.714 Gene Tavernetti: Can we infer what's neglected? 00:09:13.714 --> 00:09:16.924 I mean, that sounds, it, it sounds similar to what I see. 00:09:16.954 --> 00:09:21.424 It seems like, like many times we're seeing the same type of instruction over 00:09:21.424 --> 00:09:27.466 and over again and, I know you guys well enough that you'll tell me if I'm wrong, 00:09:27.856 --> 00:09:33.391 but what, you know, my hypothesis is that, you know, if a third grader can't do the 00:09:33.491 --> 00:09:36.821 capitalize the beginning of a sentence and there's some sort of punctuation at 00:09:36.821 --> 00:09:39.341 the end, we go back to the very beginning. 00:09:39.961 --> 00:09:43.921 But my thinking is because they're more mature now. 00:09:44.661 --> 00:09:46.341 That could go more quickly. 00:09:46.971 --> 00:09:50.001 We don't have to spend for the same amount of time you would 00:09:50.001 --> 00:09:51.771 spend in first grade teaching that. 00:09:51.921 --> 00:09:54.411 But that's what I see and we never catch up. 00:09:54.861 --> 00:09:55.281 Kim: Correct. 00:09:55.281 --> 00:09:58.101 And you know what, Jean, this isn't a current problem. 00:09:58.101 --> 00:10:01.461 This is a problem thatI've been around my entire teaching career 00:10:01.461 --> 00:10:05.131 of 32 years because this is not just new things that I'm seeing. 00:10:05.131 --> 00:10:09.241 This is when I used to do technology training for a piece of software. 00:10:09.541 --> 00:10:13.351 The top 10 lessons that teachers would make in grades three and up 00:10:13.501 --> 00:10:15.181 were about prepositional phrases. 00:10:15.511 --> 00:10:18.761 So why are prepositional phrases the stumbling block that. 00:10:19.141 --> 00:10:25.591 Every teacher from grades three through 12, we're making a, an activity for kids 00:10:25.591 --> 00:10:29.951 to learn about prepositional phrases like that shouldn't be that hard, you know? 00:10:30.191 --> 00:10:33.841 So I think it really boils down to the amount of reps and the 00:10:33.841 --> 00:10:35.491 practice that kids are getting. 00:10:35.801 --> 00:10:38.681 Because teachers intently teach and. 00:10:39.261 --> 00:10:42.471 lecturer at the front of the classroom and then the kids finally get to 00:10:42.471 --> 00:10:44.271 show what they know through writing. 00:10:44.271 --> 00:10:48.231 And we have 10 minutes left in the lesson to do that much writing. 00:10:48.231 --> 00:10:48.921 And that's it. 00:10:48.981 --> 00:10:51.741 Rather than having that be the focus of the lesson. 00:10:52.461 --> 00:10:55.541 Gene Tavernetti: You were shaking your heads there, Josie about we 00:10:55.541 --> 00:10:56.741 can catch 'em up more quickly. 00:10:57.179 --> 00:10:57.659 Josie: Yeah. 00:10:57.659 --> 00:11:01.529 So when my students come to me, like in sixth grade, I, you know, I have a set 00:11:01.529 --> 00:11:03.809 of, I call 'em non-negotiables, right? 00:11:03.869 --> 00:11:08.399 So I'm not gonna look at your writing if, you know, if your name isn't capitalized, 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:12.269 you know, you gotta fix some things first, you have to go through it, you know? 00:11:12.369 --> 00:11:14.949 Because by the time they're in the sixth grade, that's something 00:11:14.949 --> 00:11:16.689 that should be automatic, is it? 00:11:16.689 --> 00:11:17.199 No. 00:11:17.659 --> 00:11:20.029 Especially with proper nouns and things like that. 00:11:20.029 --> 00:11:24.359 They are writing really fast and furiously especially if they're typing. 00:11:24.389 --> 00:11:29.309 They don't think to look over what they've read or what they've written. 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:30.939 I mean, it's just a given. 00:11:30.939 --> 00:11:32.509 The more the kids read, the better they write. 00:11:33.489 --> 00:11:37.359 So, you know, when I'm doing like a beginning of the year writing 00:11:37.359 --> 00:11:41.859 assessment, I can almost put, you know, kids in two piles. 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.599 You know, those who read and those who don't. 00:11:44.169 --> 00:11:48.099 Because the more they read the better they're gonna write. 00:11:48.539 --> 00:11:51.569 and the two are very connected, obviously, right? 00:11:51.689 --> 00:11:54.059 So we write, so people read it. 00:11:54.209 --> 00:11:57.219 We, you know, we read other people's writing, so. 00:11:58.134 --> 00:12:00.054 I think that is also a thing. 00:12:00.054 --> 00:12:02.844 You know, students are reading less and less all the time. 00:12:02.844 --> 00:12:06.444 They say all those articles that are being published about how students 00:12:06.444 --> 00:12:08.334 read less and less than they ever have. 00:12:08.364 --> 00:12:13.332 I think that's a huge contributor to students who have poor writing skills. 00:12:14.055 --> 00:12:17.695 Gene Tavernetti: how do we address that issue that students are reading less? 00:12:17.725 --> 00:12:20.465 And I'm gonna start with Kim first, and then talk to Josie about how 00:12:20.465 --> 00:12:21.515 you handled it in middle school. 00:12:21.845 --> 00:12:26.685 But are kids reading less in their reading classes? 00:12:26.995 --> 00:12:33.025 I spoke to somebody recently and said that a secondary person, a secondary 00:12:33.025 --> 00:12:37.705 student, can go through the entire day without ever having to read. 00:12:38.680 --> 00:12:41.080 Allowed, much less having to read. 00:12:41.770 --> 00:12:45.070 So are we just reading less in, in our classrooms? 00:12:45.967 --> 00:12:50.287 Kim: I think that it's been hard for teachers to find a balance 00:12:50.527 --> 00:12:54.307 with all the other things put on top of them that they have to do. 00:12:54.397 --> 00:12:58.927 So even though you might have a 45 minute language arts block, you don't 00:12:58.927 --> 00:13:02.407 get to spend the 45 minutes doing that because you're dealing with X, Y, 00:13:02.407 --> 00:13:04.477 and Z. So I think that's part of it. 00:13:04.837 --> 00:13:10.257 I do think that they I. Importance placed on testing, especially 00:13:10.257 --> 00:13:14.012 with different systems that measure students' reading ability. 00:13:14.582 --> 00:13:17.642 Has then made the practice of reading not be fun. 00:13:18.122 --> 00:13:21.572 And so there's, you know, if I'm, if I know I'm gonna have to read every time 00:13:21.572 --> 00:13:23.192 I read, I'm gonna take a test on it. 00:13:23.462 --> 00:13:24.362 That is not fun. 00:13:24.932 --> 00:13:27.932 And so, am I gonna keep doing well on those? 00:13:27.932 --> 00:13:28.592 Maybe not. 00:13:28.642 --> 00:13:32.842 I, maybe there's no skin in the game for me to do well on that quiz, and I'm just 00:13:32.842 --> 00:13:36.232 going to, you know, read it, do the quiz, read it, do the quiz, because no matter 00:13:36.232 --> 00:13:40.522 what, I'm getting passed along and I'm finishing what my teacher asked me to do. 00:13:40.982 --> 00:13:45.062 And I think sometimes, you know, we can be fun suckers as teachers. 00:13:45.062 --> 00:13:50.462 We suck the fun outta things because of all the, tell me what you learned from it. 00:13:50.972 --> 00:13:54.152 Why do we have to, you know, do the book, report on it, do the 00:13:54.152 --> 00:13:58.742 this and that, and can we just read because we enjoyed it and get some 00:13:58.742 --> 00:14:00.152 sort of discussion going about it? 00:14:00.152 --> 00:14:00.602 I don't know. 00:14:00.602 --> 00:14:04.607 That's where I think a lot of the edge protocols come into play that make. 00:14:04.957 --> 00:14:07.987 Writing fun based on the reading that's been done. 00:14:08.287 --> 00:14:12.817 And I have never had kids cheer to write before, like I have before using 00:14:12.817 --> 00:14:14.647 some of the ed protocol lesson frames. 00:14:15.217 --> 00:14:18.197 Gene Tavernetti: So I wanna transition into ED protocols in just a second, but I 00:14:18.197 --> 00:14:24.347 wanna hear what Josie has to say about the amount of reading done in middle school. 00:14:25.517 --> 00:14:28.817 Josie: When I was saying that they tend to read less, I was talking 00:14:28.817 --> 00:14:32.507 about like recreational reading, so reading in their free time. 00:14:32.867 --> 00:14:39.347 So I know for me, if I want them to understand that it's important and that 00:14:39.347 --> 00:14:43.787 it's a valuable way to spend their time, I have to give them time in class to do it. 00:14:44.327 --> 00:14:49.127 So my warmup every day is they have 10 minutes of reading. 00:14:49.327 --> 00:14:52.627 This last, like I would say round they, I put them in book clubs 00:14:52.627 --> 00:14:56.437 and they chose a book and I put them in groups based on the book. 00:14:56.437 --> 00:14:59.317 And then they had a meeting like once a week, but every day they 00:14:59.317 --> 00:15:01.357 had 10 minutes to read in class. 00:15:01.837 --> 00:15:03.967 if I'm telling them that it's important that they read, they 00:15:03.967 --> 00:15:05.287 have to be able to do it in class. 00:15:05.287 --> 00:15:07.177 So even if it's just 10 minutes. 00:15:07.537 --> 00:15:12.077 And one of the things I say in my back to school night, presentations 00:15:12.077 --> 00:15:16.817 to my parents is, you know, if you, like Kim said, if you had to do a 00:15:16.817 --> 00:15:22.277 report or a project for every book you read, how many books would you read? 00:15:22.997 --> 00:15:29.327 You know, probably not a lot or any, you know, so my attitude is you 00:15:29.327 --> 00:15:31.007 finish the book, you get another one. 00:15:31.697 --> 00:15:37.127 And when I shifted to that mentality, I had read the book Whisper by Donly Miller, 00:15:37.127 --> 00:15:40.037 who's like just somebody I looked up to. 00:15:40.407 --> 00:15:41.217 She's written that. 00:15:41.247 --> 00:15:44.587 And then the sequel is reading in the Wild where. 00:15:45.397 --> 00:15:49.627 You know, the emphasis is on reading as many books as you can. 00:15:50.097 --> 00:15:54.957 Not having a necessarily an assignment attached to everything, but talking 00:15:54.957 --> 00:15:58.587 to your students about books, book, talking different books in your 00:15:58.587 --> 00:16:00.927 classroom to show them what's available. 00:16:01.032 --> 00:16:06.882 And when I started doing that, I had students much more engaged 00:16:06.882 --> 00:16:09.042 by finding books to read. 00:16:10.002 --> 00:16:14.802 Because if I looked excited about it or was excited about it, they tended, 00:16:14.892 --> 00:16:18.882 they tend to kind of follow that. 00:16:19.002 --> 00:16:19.512 Right. 00:16:19.872 --> 00:16:24.162 So I just feel like I have to give them time if I tell them it's important. 00:16:24.732 --> 00:16:27.042 Gene Tavernetti: And you do novels in your class, correct? 00:16:27.552 --> 00:16:28.662 Josie: Yeah, I'm required to. 00:16:29.022 --> 00:16:29.352 Gene Tavernetti: Okay. 00:16:29.352 --> 00:16:32.772 And so are they reading those novels during class time as well? 00:16:33.562 --> 00:16:34.882 Josie: We'll read 'em in class. 00:16:34.942 --> 00:16:38.552 You know, sometimes We'll read them, you know, a chapter in class and 00:16:38.552 --> 00:16:42.452 they have to do a chapter at home, or I'll read excerpts after they've 00:16:42.512 --> 00:16:44.162 supposedly had read a chapter. 00:16:44.262 --> 00:16:46.992 But yeah, we typically read them during class time. 00:16:47.698 --> 00:16:52.876 Gene Tavernetti: So as we move from that as context and we move into the edge of 00:16:52.876 --> 00:16:58.361 protocols where the kids are writing all the time the kids are asked to write all 00:16:58.361 --> 00:17:00.011 the time about things that they read. 00:17:00.532 --> 00:17:04.852 Could, Kim, could you just describe what EDU protocols are? 00:17:05.302 --> 00:17:07.072 Maybe what they're not sure. 00:17:07.342 --> 00:17:07.732 Kim: Sure. 00:17:07.912 --> 00:17:11.782 So Edge, your protocols are a lesson frame for learning that you can kind 00:17:11.782 --> 00:17:17.102 of rinse and repeat and use across all content areas and subject matters. 00:17:17.132 --> 00:17:18.962 the essence of them are like. 00:17:19.292 --> 00:17:24.202 You're going to do some activities with vocabulary because every subject area 00:17:24.202 --> 00:17:27.952 has vocabulary and we might do something like what's called a fast and curious 00:17:28.042 --> 00:17:32.062 to build up the repetitions of the kids learning the new vocabulary words. 00:17:32.422 --> 00:17:37.032 And then we might use not an edge protocol, but we've adopted it or as the 00:17:37.032 --> 00:17:41.447 Frere model because it's universal for understanding vocabulary really well. 00:17:41.947 --> 00:17:45.817 And then we move into something where the ever familiar Venn diagram can 00:17:45.817 --> 00:17:49.687 be altered for a cyber sandwich, where we would both be reading the 00:17:49.687 --> 00:17:52.657 same article, taking notes on that. 00:17:52.747 --> 00:17:55.507 And then the Venn diagram comes into when we compare the 00:17:55.507 --> 00:17:57.247 notes to see what we both have. 00:17:57.517 --> 00:17:59.797 Then we write our own individual summaries. 00:18:00.167 --> 00:18:04.312 So those are just two or three examples of edger protocols. 00:18:04.622 --> 00:18:05.762 there's a subtle. 00:18:06.532 --> 00:18:10.102 Hint of fun in them, and it's kind of like a scavenger hunt of 00:18:10.102 --> 00:18:13.672 information rather than this worksheet. 00:18:13.922 --> 00:18:17.942 Like even for the eight parts of grammar, we have one called eight 00:18:17.942 --> 00:18:21.482 parts where we give students a picture, usually something funny. 00:18:21.692 --> 00:18:23.872 And they are describing the picture using. 00:18:24.017 --> 00:18:26.627 All the eight parts of speech and then writing a paragraph. 00:18:26.937 --> 00:18:29.427 So they are not just underlying the noun once in the verb 00:18:29.427 --> 00:18:31.197 twice, like a typical worksheet. 00:18:31.617 --> 00:18:35.947 So that's, the novelty is what makes it fun for kids, I think. 00:18:36.397 --> 00:18:38.217 Gene Tavernetti: Well, you know, I think there are two things that I'd 00:18:38.217 --> 00:18:41.397 like to expand upon, and one is that. 00:18:41.947 --> 00:18:45.197 You know, when you talk about the rinse and repeat, like, what in 00:18:45.197 --> 00:18:46.277 the world does that look like? 00:18:46.277 --> 00:18:49.277 And I think with respect to riding, you know, there's one 00:18:49.277 --> 00:18:52.137 edgy protocol that's, it's a CER. 00:18:52.857 --> 00:18:58.437 Claims evidence reasoning, which every teacher teaches, or every 00:18:58.437 --> 00:19:00.807 teacher wants the kids to use. 00:19:01.467 --> 00:19:04.397 And so, in what content area do you do it? 00:19:04.457 --> 00:19:07.847 I know, Josie, you do it in both language arts and social studies. 00:19:08.057 --> 00:19:08.147 Mm-hmm. 00:19:08.427 --> 00:19:10.767 So you can do it in all the content areas. 00:19:10.782 --> 00:19:11.682 It doesn't matter. 00:19:11.922 --> 00:19:16.752 And the second thing, when you're talking about the fund, and this is what drew me 00:19:16.782 --> 00:19:21.262 to it, initially is how you're suckering the kids into doing more writing. 00:19:21.652 --> 00:19:21.922 Absolutely. 00:19:21.922 --> 00:19:25.442 It's almost like, it's like you're tricking them into doing writing 00:19:25.742 --> 00:19:31.142 and having to interact with another student to talk about it as well. 00:19:31.142 --> 00:19:31.232 Right. 00:19:32.127 --> 00:19:35.877 Kim: Well, and like a perfect example is the random emoji power paragraph. 00:19:36.237 --> 00:19:39.657 So if I have told kids, Hey guys, we're gonna write a five 00:19:39.657 --> 00:19:41.037 sentence paragraph right now. 00:19:41.337 --> 00:19:42.807 Nobody would wanna be doing that. 00:19:42.837 --> 00:19:44.637 That does not sound like fun at all. 00:19:44.877 --> 00:19:49.267 But as soon as I say, Hey, you guys open up your computers, go to socratic.com 00:19:49.267 --> 00:19:50.647 because you're gonna be typing there. 00:19:50.917 --> 00:19:54.187 I'm gonna show you an emoji and I want you to write a sentence about it. 00:19:54.547 --> 00:19:57.157 I don't want it to be, that's an emoji of a smiley face. 00:19:57.157 --> 00:19:57.797 I want you to like. 00:19:58.297 --> 00:20:02.437 Put some story to it and now I'm gonna show you another emoji and 00:20:02.437 --> 00:20:04.087 I want you to connect those ideas. 00:20:04.357 --> 00:20:08.167 So now we have creativity, we have critical thinking, so I'm bringing in 00:20:08.167 --> 00:20:10.477 the four Cs, getting the rigor there. 00:20:10.867 --> 00:20:13.387 And the kids have to connect those ideas. 00:20:13.967 --> 00:20:19.037 We're still hopefully getting capitals and periods and writing is pursuing an idea. 00:20:19.317 --> 00:20:22.917 And then we get to the end of that and we've got the five emojis 00:20:22.917 --> 00:20:24.507 with five sentences represented. 00:20:24.952 --> 00:20:28.822 And I pull it open on the screen for the kids to see, and I can 00:20:28.822 --> 00:20:32.182 give collective feedback over some of the things I'm seeing. 00:20:32.182 --> 00:20:36.502 Like, oh, the biggest one is kids don't capitalize I, because 00:20:36.502 --> 00:20:38.542 they're, they text like that. 00:20:38.722 --> 00:20:39.892 So we talk about that. 00:20:39.892 --> 00:20:43.952 Or maybe they'll, there would be some places where they needed to put a comma 00:20:43.952 --> 00:20:47.792 with the conjunction because they had two independent clauses or whatever. 00:20:47.792 --> 00:20:51.452 All those, like the, maybe the tar thing I'm targeting in their writing 00:20:51.452 --> 00:20:53.672 instruction or, and grammar rules. 00:20:53.992 --> 00:20:57.532 And then I turn it out to them to vote so they get to read each other's. 00:20:57.532 --> 00:21:02.632 So now their audience isn't just me as the teacher, their audience is everybody. 00:21:02.992 --> 00:21:05.562 And so, other people are gonna read their writing. 00:21:05.972 --> 00:21:07.772 And that's when it becomes really fun. 00:21:07.772 --> 00:21:10.952 And then we can move that into the not show paragraph where they 00:21:10.952 --> 00:21:12.812 then correct and edit a paragraph. 00:21:13.112 --> 00:21:17.402 And now I've even done more and they're still all smiling about it and they. 00:21:18.032 --> 00:21:18.692 Are happy about it. 00:21:18.692 --> 00:21:20.402 And they're like, when are we doing that again? 00:21:20.552 --> 00:21:23.792 Which that never happens when you say we're writing a five paragraph 00:21:23.922 --> 00:21:25.262 or five sentence paragraph. 00:21:25.262 --> 00:21:25.322 I. 00:21:26.507 --> 00:21:27.857 Gene Tavernetti: You're shaking your heads there, Josie. 00:21:27.907 --> 00:21:33.537 what's some of the ED protocols that you use for writing and a again, it is 00:21:33.597 --> 00:21:35.637 for the people who know ED protocols. 00:21:36.157 --> 00:21:39.847 And so and I think that's one of the other things that was so exciting to 00:21:39.847 --> 00:21:43.897 me about the edge of protocols is for language arts teachers, especially 00:21:43.897 --> 00:21:48.787 when it was time to revise or edit anything, where do you get the, you know, 00:21:49.117 --> 00:21:51.097 authentic samples that kids wanna use. 00:21:51.337 --> 00:21:53.407 Alright, Josie, I did a lot of talking there. 00:21:53.677 --> 00:21:58.267 So you talk a little bit about how you use the ED protocols for your writing. 00:21:59.137 --> 00:22:02.107 Josie: So I use, since I started using Edge protocols, 00:22:02.107 --> 00:22:03.667 I do a lot more writing and. 00:22:04.552 --> 00:22:06.862 In history than I did before. 00:22:07.272 --> 00:22:12.652 So the ones I use the most often are probably the Iron Chef the cyber 00:22:12.652 --> 00:22:18.652 sandwich, the three times challenge, whether it's point of view or genre, or. 00:22:19.642 --> 00:22:20.752 Tone or whatever. 00:22:20.752 --> 00:22:22.822 I some variation of the three times. 00:22:22.822 --> 00:22:25.042 I use that one a lot in social studies. 00:22:25.532 --> 00:22:32.882 I use the random emoji for social studies review, you know, where students 00:22:32.882 --> 00:22:37.142 are creating like analogies based on the emojis to connect to history and 00:22:37.142 --> 00:22:38.942 they're writing, you know, sentences. 00:22:39.362 --> 00:22:39.722 What else? 00:22:39.722 --> 00:22:44.242 I use the eight parts in both ELA and history to write summaries of learning. 00:22:44.547 --> 00:22:47.607 Based on, not even a picture, but an article we read. 00:22:47.977 --> 00:22:51.517 So those are the ones I use a lot. 00:22:51.517 --> 00:22:53.767 I use Fast and Curious also, but that's not for writing. 00:22:53.767 --> 00:22:57.827 But I, most of the Edge protocols contain. 00:22:58.437 --> 00:23:03.147 Some kind of writing or a response to something they 00:23:03.147 --> 00:23:04.677 read, which requires writing. 00:23:05.007 --> 00:23:09.337 So, since I started using them, I feel like my students write a lot 00:23:09.397 --> 00:23:13.487 every day, all week long whether it's, and I have the same students 00:23:13.487 --> 00:23:17.567 for English and history, so I get them for a longer chunk of time every day. 00:23:18.117 --> 00:23:20.817 So I feel like we're either writing an ELA or history every day. 00:23:21.731 --> 00:23:23.171 Because they have to write. 00:23:23.381 --> 00:23:23.501 Yeah. 00:23:23.561 --> 00:23:26.111 Because the more they write, the better they're gonna get at it. 00:23:26.171 --> 00:23:26.321 Mm-hmm. 00:23:26.351 --> 00:23:32.121 I don't, I feel like also that's another issue is you know, WR writing 00:23:32.121 --> 00:23:36.801 takes a long time to read and a lot of teachers, I think, feel like they 00:23:36.801 --> 00:23:38.961 have to read everything a child writes. 00:23:39.411 --> 00:23:42.711 And so it's harder to assign it, you know what I mean? 00:23:43.504 --> 00:23:45.004 I think students should be writing. 00:23:45.004 --> 00:23:48.364 I heard this once in a professional development, students need to be 00:23:48.364 --> 00:23:51.934 writing four times more than you could possibly read or grade, you know, 00:23:51.934 --> 00:23:54.244 because they need the constant practice. 00:23:54.484 --> 00:23:58.204 So I feel like the edge protocols that I use help that a lot. 00:23:58.324 --> 00:24:03.454 Like we just, we wrote a three times point of view for ancient Egypt, 00:24:03.814 --> 00:24:07.114 you know, the day before the break, you know, before the winter break. 00:24:07.114 --> 00:24:10.174 So we're, I'm always trying to figure out a way to include writing, 00:24:10.174 --> 00:24:11.284 especially in my history class. 00:24:17.211 --> 00:24:20.551 Gene Tavernetti: So we talked about a couple things CER claims, evidence, 00:24:20.551 --> 00:24:22.116 reasoning, talked about Oh yeah. 00:24:22.116 --> 00:24:26.616 Talked about point of view, three, three writing with during three points of view. 00:24:27.066 --> 00:24:32.406 One of the things that I have seen and that people have told me that one of the 00:24:32.406 --> 00:24:39.046 issues with writing and in, in curriculum that is purchased by a district is that. 00:24:39.556 --> 00:24:45.016 There's not as much instruction as is needed, but there are just activities. 00:24:45.296 --> 00:24:49.496 And so when you're talking about doing three points of view or claims, evidence, 00:24:49.496 --> 00:24:54.596 reasoning, what sort of instruction needs to go into that before you assign? 00:24:55.712 --> 00:24:59.102 Josie: Well, I think this is where teachers are using a lot of supplemental 00:24:59.102 --> 00:25:02.762 material, you know, where they're, wherever they're getting it from, 00:25:02.762 --> 00:25:06.122 whether it's, you know, from online or they're buying things or whatever. 00:25:06.477 --> 00:25:12.037 I know that is where I have to supplement the most is writing because like the 00:25:12.037 --> 00:25:17.695 curriculum I use which I don't wanna name has a lot of writing assignments or 00:25:17.695 --> 00:25:23.815 suggestions for writing, but not really strong instruction on how to do it. 00:25:23.845 --> 00:25:27.775 You know, the assignment might be, oh, write a nonfiction narrative, 00:25:27.835 --> 00:25:29.845 you know, to respond to this tech. 00:25:30.535 --> 00:25:35.065 And that's a whole unit in itself is, you know, writing a 00:25:35.065 --> 00:25:36.685 nonfiction narrative or whatever. 00:25:36.685 --> 00:25:41.875 So yeah, it's a lot of assignments or activity suggestions, but not 00:25:41.875 --> 00:25:44.005 really any hardcore instruction. 00:25:44.095 --> 00:25:47.575 Kim: It's more about the product than the process, I think. 00:25:47.575 --> 00:25:47.785 Right. 00:25:47.785 --> 00:25:50.755 Is what we, what I see in the canned curriculums. 00:25:51.685 --> 00:25:51.775 Gene Tavernetti: Mm-hmm. 00:25:52.015 --> 00:25:53.110 How about in the elementary? 00:25:53.110 --> 00:25:57.240 Do you see it as better, worse than upper grades? 00:25:57.630 --> 00:26:04.070 Kim: I see a lot of people using their own things to answer the question of how 00:26:04.070 --> 00:26:08.690 to do it and how to make it work because it is not well thought out and well done. 00:26:09.050 --> 00:26:12.480 You know, they'll whatever the theme is of the week, they'll try to have 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:13.980 the writing activity go with the theme. 00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:17.880 And it's sometimes it's like, you know, kinda wonky with that. 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:21.480 Like it doesn't really relate and they're trying too hard to make it relate. 00:26:21.990 --> 00:26:23.640 So it doesn't really do it. 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:29.320 And I, the, one of the biggest problems is if you have like a trimester system, 00:26:29.530 --> 00:26:33.400 you're focused on one type of writing for the trimester or one genre of writing. 00:26:33.670 --> 00:26:36.490 So we're in trimester one, we're gonna do informative trimester 00:26:36.490 --> 00:26:38.200 two opinion, trimester three. 00:26:38.540 --> 00:26:41.840 Is narrative is the typical pattern, something like that. 00:26:42.230 --> 00:26:44.540 So that then at the end of the year. 00:26:44.900 --> 00:26:48.620 When we have the state testing in third grade and up, it's a, 00:26:48.710 --> 00:26:52.370 you know, random pick on which one you get to, to write about. 00:26:52.520 --> 00:26:56.060 And if you get the one that we wrote about in trimester one and you've never 00:26:56.060 --> 00:26:59.090 looked at it again, what are the chances that you're gonna do a good job on that? 00:26:59.090 --> 00:27:02.740 So, I think we can do more with less in length. 00:27:03.235 --> 00:27:05.275 Like for upper grade students, does everything have to go 00:27:05.275 --> 00:27:06.775 to five paragraph essay? 00:27:06.925 --> 00:27:07.795 Maybe not. 00:27:08.015 --> 00:27:11.045 That's where like the three time genre comes in, where we get the gist so 00:27:11.045 --> 00:27:15.415 that we're constantly figuring out like, what's the my purpose in writing? 00:27:15.415 --> 00:27:16.675 Who's my audience in writing? 00:27:16.675 --> 00:27:18.475 So what type of writing am I gonna do? 00:27:18.745 --> 00:27:22.145 And I think that's more important to get the kids that meaningful 00:27:22.145 --> 00:27:26.105 practice rather than get the five paragraph essay three times a year. 00:27:26.835 --> 00:27:31.011 Josie: gonna say one thing that I think is helpful in terms of edger 00:27:31.011 --> 00:27:33.551 protocols with writing is that. 00:27:34.181 --> 00:27:36.371 You know, they're short bursts of writing. 00:27:36.431 --> 00:27:40.901 They're not, you know, oh, we're gonna spend three days writing this essay. 00:27:40.901 --> 00:27:45.731 You know, they're very short practices, low risk, and I think that's super 00:27:45.731 --> 00:27:49.781 important in building like writing stamina and fluency, is that they 00:27:49.781 --> 00:27:54.761 have lots of opportunities to practice in these like short bursts. 00:27:54.761 --> 00:27:58.881 So when they look at, you know, maybe the slide or a paper copy of like the 00:27:58.881 --> 00:28:00.741 three times challenge or whatever. 00:28:00.981 --> 00:28:03.291 They're not seeing like a blank document. 00:28:03.291 --> 00:28:07.538 It's a, you know, it's a box and for whatever reason. 00:28:07.789 --> 00:28:11.089 Writing in like a small box that's contained and they know they only have 00:28:11.089 --> 00:28:16.499 to put one kind of thing in there is very, what's the word I'm looking for? 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:17.819 It's like a relief to them. 00:28:17.879 --> 00:28:17.969 Mm-hmm. 00:28:18.209 --> 00:28:19.979 It's, it hits different. 00:28:19.979 --> 00:28:24.769 So, you know, every time I have my students you know, do like a three 00:28:24.769 --> 00:28:27.589 times CER and they're writing, you know. 00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:31.639 Three claims, or there's one claim and they have to write about three 00:28:31.639 --> 00:28:36.649 reasons or whatever, you know, they'll do it in, you know, 20, 25 minutes. 00:28:36.649 --> 00:28:38.899 And then when it's all said and done, I'll look at them and I'll 00:28:38.899 --> 00:28:40.099 say, you just wrote an essay. 00:28:40.129 --> 00:28:41.719 It's just in boxes, you know? 00:28:41.719 --> 00:28:41.809 Right. 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.119 Let's slap an intro and a conclusion on it. 00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:47.119 And then you've got, you know, a five paragraph essay or whatever. 00:28:47.629 --> 00:28:54.459 So, there's, so when they realize that it's motivating and, it's motivating for 00:28:54.459 --> 00:28:58.759 them to see like, oh, I can write, you know, an essay or whatever, but it, when 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:03.639 it's broken down like that in these little boxes or whatever it just hits different 00:29:03.669 --> 00:29:08.349 and they feel more confident because they know they only have to put, you 00:29:08.349 --> 00:29:12.159 know, they evidence in this box and they only, they have to put this in this box. 00:29:12.159 --> 00:29:14.169 And it's not a blank document where they have to just. 00:29:14.904 --> 00:29:15.384 You know, 00:29:15.594 --> 00:29:16.284 Kim: fill the page right 00:29:16.494 --> 00:29:17.124 Josie: from nothing. 00:29:17.129 --> 00:29:17.249 Yeah. 00:29:17.664 --> 00:29:17.844 Yeah. 00:29:17.874 --> 00:29:19.824 Kim: That's, I used the mini report. 00:29:20.364 --> 00:29:20.604 Similar. 00:29:20.604 --> 00:29:20.694 Yes. 00:29:20.694 --> 00:29:21.624 Mini report. 00:29:21.624 --> 00:29:22.824 I forgot about that one too. 00:29:23.034 --> 00:29:26.224 Our national park project, so, I didn't tell 'em they were gonna be 00:29:26.224 --> 00:29:27.964 writing three informational paragraphs. 00:29:27.964 --> 00:29:30.904 I just said, you are gonna get information, write some information 00:29:30.904 --> 00:29:34.264 about the flora, the fauna, and a natural resource in your park. 00:29:34.414 --> 00:29:38.049 And all of a sudden they had three minute report paragraphs, so they had. 00:29:38.669 --> 00:29:41.429 The body paragraphs of an essay and I'm like, yeah, essay writing. 00:29:41.429 --> 00:29:42.089 That doesn't hurt. 00:29:42.689 --> 00:29:43.169 Josie: I forgot 00:29:43.169 --> 00:29:43.739 Kim: about many 00:29:43.739 --> 00:29:44.339 Josie: reports too. 00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:45.149 I use that one. 00:29:45.199 --> 00:29:47.749 I just used that one couple weeks ago. 00:29:47.749 --> 00:29:51.659 So, and I'm gonna do another one in the next unit. 00:29:51.659 --> 00:29:55.159 You know, I try to do them, whether it's in ELA or history, 00:29:55.159 --> 00:29:56.749 I alternate, I flip flop. 00:29:56.749 --> 00:29:57.919 It just kind of depends. 00:29:58.159 --> 00:30:02.059 But the mini report is fantastic just because. 00:30:03.103 --> 00:30:05.713 You know, if you tell them they're gonna write a report and then they have to 00:30:05.713 --> 00:30:08.683 put some notes in these little boxes and then use those notes to write a 00:30:08.683 --> 00:30:12.943 paragraph, they see that writing is not as intimidating as they think it is. 00:30:13.033 --> 00:30:13.123 Kim: Mm-hmm. 00:30:14.323 --> 00:30:15.463 Josie: That's what I think it helps with. 00:30:16.003 --> 00:30:19.183 Gene Tavernetti: Again, I'm gonna go back to my characterization as we fool 00:30:19.183 --> 00:30:24.673 them into making writing accessible to them that it's not this big thing 00:30:24.673 --> 00:30:27.193 that we, that it's been made out to be. 00:30:27.493 --> 00:30:30.613 And I'm, and I know listeners that we are using. 00:30:31.033 --> 00:30:35.603 You know, fast and curious and mini report and all of these different 00:30:35.603 --> 00:30:37.373 names for the edge of protocols. 00:30:37.733 --> 00:30:43.243 But I'm telling you, you can go on YouTube and there's probably hundreds 00:30:43.423 --> 00:30:47.793 of videos that you can see about each of these things that we're talking about. 00:30:47.793 --> 00:30:51.303 And we'll have more in the show notes about where where you can go 00:30:51.303 --> 00:30:56.103 for these, because I think that, as we mentioned earlier, it's not only 00:30:56.103 --> 00:31:02.563 practice, it's not only writing, but it is, um, it's not naive practice. 00:31:02.573 --> 00:31:03.383 Just go write. 00:31:03.413 --> 00:31:04.133 Just go write. 00:31:04.193 --> 00:31:06.653 It's not that It is writing with a purpose. 00:31:06.803 --> 00:31:08.183 It's deliberate practice. 00:31:08.183 --> 00:31:12.973 There's criteria the you know, as you said, Josie, we can't read all the 00:31:12.973 --> 00:31:15.703 writing that students need to read, but. 00:31:16.213 --> 00:31:19.033 I know we've been using some AI. 00:31:19.783 --> 00:31:20.773 To help with that. 00:31:20.773 --> 00:31:25.873 So can you talk about Josie start with you, how you're using some AI tools to 00:31:25.873 --> 00:31:29.963 help with writing and then we'll talk to Kim about in the younger grades. 00:31:30.273 --> 00:31:32.343 Josie: There are so many platforms. 00:31:32.463 --> 00:31:37.083 I mean, so many, and I was at the point where I'm trying all of them to 00:31:37.083 --> 00:31:39.033 figure out what I really wanna use. 00:31:39.483 --> 00:31:40.293 You know what I mean? 00:31:40.293 --> 00:31:42.333 And each of them have their own purposes. 00:31:42.333 --> 00:31:46.463 So one platform I really love is we will write.com. 00:31:46.803 --> 00:31:51.723 Because it does exactly what I said before, it gives them short 00:31:51.753 --> 00:31:56.793 bursts of practice, you know, over several little writing challenges. 00:31:56.943 --> 00:32:01.653 It provides the teacher with feedback to give to the class in general. 00:32:01.933 --> 00:32:03.973 Kids are, it's gamified basically. 00:32:04.333 --> 00:32:09.293 So I like to use, it's a gamified writing platform where kids are writing 00:32:09.293 --> 00:32:12.863 in a series of challenges and then they're, you know, they're on teams and 00:32:12.863 --> 00:32:14.633 then their writing is paired together. 00:32:14.913 --> 00:32:17.043 And we have to vote on the best ones. 00:32:17.043 --> 00:32:22.753 But as you're looking at them as a class the AI in, in the tool. 00:32:23.516 --> 00:32:26.816 Gives the teacher specific things to focus on. 00:32:26.816 --> 00:32:28.766 Like, it'll highlight things in each of the writing. 00:32:28.766 --> 00:32:31.496 Like, oh, here's where they used the simile and here's where they used 00:32:31.496 --> 00:32:36.016 hyperbole, and this is where they used you know, a an engaging hook or whatever. 00:32:36.016 --> 00:32:41.176 So for me, that helps the whole class and it kind of creates a community of writers. 00:32:41.176 --> 00:32:44.176 So then the next challenge they go through, they will try to 00:32:44.176 --> 00:32:45.556 do the same kinds of things. 00:32:46.246 --> 00:32:47.626 In the models they saw. 00:32:48.066 --> 00:32:53.466 So I like that for group practice, if I'm going to have them use a tool to 00:32:53.466 --> 00:32:58.636 get individual feedback and to revise there's snorkel and there's class 00:32:58.636 --> 00:33:04.106 companion which are more individualized, so they get feedback from them. 00:33:04.476 --> 00:33:09.016 And there's some things about that that I love and also some things I don't. 00:33:09.076 --> 00:33:09.676 So. 00:33:10.801 --> 00:33:14.101 But it does help them get that instant feedback. 00:33:14.311 --> 00:33:17.611 They're trying to improve their score or the outcome they get. 00:33:17.731 --> 00:33:23.041 And it's super motivating and I feel like it's like 30 of me, you 00:33:23.041 --> 00:33:26.611 know, standing next to each kid, telling them how to make it better. 00:33:26.911 --> 00:33:29.541 Gene Tavernetti: So Josie, let's talk about because the people who 00:33:29.541 --> 00:33:31.551 are going to try it are gonna try it. 00:33:31.581 --> 00:33:36.291 Let's talk about what you don't like about it to get that out in the open. 00:33:36.391 --> 00:33:36.521 Okay. 00:33:37.706 --> 00:33:38.486 Josie: Oh, do you want me to tell you? 00:33:38.546 --> 00:33:38.996 Okay. 00:33:39.146 --> 00:33:39.236 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah, 00:33:39.236 --> 00:33:39.566 Josie: absolutely. 00:33:39.866 --> 00:33:46.386 What I don't like is students get so focused on getting the highest score 00:33:47.136 --> 00:33:52.836 that they almost become obsessive, like they're revising it 20 times and you 00:33:52.836 --> 00:33:54.186 know, and then that sometimes makes. 00:33:54.831 --> 00:33:57.201 The lesson way longer than I wanted. 00:33:57.531 --> 00:34:02.421 So what I realized I have to do is you know, give them kind of a limit. 00:34:02.481 --> 00:34:05.631 Like once you've revised it three or four times, you know, 00:34:05.991 --> 00:34:07.611 that's enough or whatever. 00:34:07.611 --> 00:34:12.561 Sometimes the AI settings are too high for my students. 00:34:12.951 --> 00:34:17.461 So if the tool can allow you to adjust the feedback level, 00:34:17.491 --> 00:34:18.961 that would, that's helpful. 00:34:19.461 --> 00:34:21.621 I think snorkel does that, but. 00:34:22.231 --> 00:34:25.381 That's what I've noticed is they get so obsessed with like, 00:34:25.381 --> 00:34:26.851 getting the perfect score. 00:34:27.181 --> 00:34:28.591 And I'm glad they care. 00:34:28.621 --> 00:34:33.816 It's just, it gets a little it's discouraging sometimes also, you 00:34:33.816 --> 00:34:38.076 know, we talk about how in my class, how AI is not always right. 00:34:38.256 --> 00:34:41.016 You know, it's not always a hundred percent. 00:34:41.346 --> 00:34:45.786 So they are, you know, getting this feedback. 00:34:46.296 --> 00:34:50.436 But it's not necessarily what I told them to do or they've done 00:34:50.436 --> 00:34:53.826 it and it's wrong or you know, so it's not always a hundred percent. 00:34:53.826 --> 00:34:55.386 And that's what I tell the students. 00:34:55.386 --> 00:34:57.576 I said, you know, I'm the one who's gonna read it. 00:34:57.696 --> 00:35:00.126 You're just getting some feedback ahead of time. 00:35:00.126 --> 00:35:03.186 If you don't agree with the feedback, you don't have to use it. 00:35:03.736 --> 00:35:05.026 But it's there for you. 00:35:05.116 --> 00:35:05.506 Right. 00:35:05.596 --> 00:35:10.636 So I just worry about how obsessive they become about trying to make it perfect. 00:35:10.706 --> 00:35:12.141 well, at the same time, I feel like that. 00:35:13.146 --> 00:35:13.436 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:35:13.677 --> 00:35:15.297 Kim, how about in the elementary grades? 00:35:15.717 --> 00:35:18.657 Kim: So in the elementary grade grades, it looks a little bit different. 00:35:18.687 --> 00:35:22.437 I have used it with second graders for descriptive writing. 00:35:22.437 --> 00:35:27.987 We actually went into Padlet and they typed in a descriptive sentence. 00:35:28.047 --> 00:35:31.737 I think they were disguising a Turkey or a pig, or it was from some story, 00:35:31.737 --> 00:35:33.117 but it was descriptive language. 00:35:33.627 --> 00:35:36.927 And so they went into the AI image generator in Padlet. 00:35:37.602 --> 00:35:40.992 Typed in their sentence to see, is that the image you wanted to create? 00:35:41.322 --> 00:35:44.572 Oh, it's not, you know, it's not wearing a red jumper. 00:35:44.572 --> 00:35:46.552 Well, did you tell it to wear a red jumper? 00:35:46.552 --> 00:35:47.512 Or whatever it may be. 00:35:47.752 --> 00:35:51.292 So they were kind of, thinking about word choice and descriptive words. 00:35:51.292 --> 00:35:52.972 So that was really fun to get kind of their. 00:35:53.297 --> 00:35:55.217 Their image brought to life for them. 00:35:55.757 --> 00:35:59.967 And then in third grade, one of the teachers used school AI 00:36:00.207 --> 00:36:02.647 where she set up a custom space. 00:36:02.647 --> 00:36:04.567 'cause you launch a space, a custom space. 00:36:04.957 --> 00:36:11.127 And she told, AI tool, you're going to be giving feedback to the students 00:36:11.127 --> 00:36:14.277 on their paragraphs, but you are not gonna rewrite it for them. 00:36:14.517 --> 00:36:17.927 You're gonna provide basically something good that they did and 00:36:17.927 --> 00:36:19.187 two ways they can improve it. 00:36:19.187 --> 00:36:22.937 So she was really direct in what kind of feedback the kids would be receiving. 00:36:23.327 --> 00:36:28.157 And then the kids copy and pasted one paragraph at a time into school ai. 00:36:28.637 --> 00:36:32.357 And then saw what they needed to fix, read the feedback they were 00:36:32.357 --> 00:36:34.787 given, and then they went back to their paragraph and fixed it up. 00:36:35.147 --> 00:36:37.727 So, I liked that kind of working in tandem. 00:36:37.727 --> 00:36:37.787 Yeah. 00:36:38.087 --> 00:36:41.627 So it wasn't just like plopping in the whole essay saying, rewrite this. 00:36:41.627 --> 00:36:45.567 For me, it was showing the responsible use of ai which is something 00:36:45.567 --> 00:36:47.337 very important in my district. 00:36:47.387 --> 00:36:50.067 We've actually, something that your listeners may wanna look up is. 00:36:50.702 --> 00:36:55.772 A Google extension called AI Trust you, where students are kind of owning 00:36:55.772 --> 00:36:58.892 up to what they're using AI for. 00:36:59.732 --> 00:37:05.272 And so, they can, you know, admit what they're using it and so we have a good 00:37:05.272 --> 00:37:07.042 idea of where the product came from. 00:37:07.847 --> 00:37:11.357 Gene Tavernetti: You know, I'm going to, this is not news to you as I share this 00:37:11.357 --> 00:37:13.787 with you folks, and that is, I think. 00:37:14.467 --> 00:37:18.787 In the two answers that you folks gave, I think we're at least up to 00:37:18.787 --> 00:37:20.767 four or five different platforms. 00:37:20.767 --> 00:37:21.757 Josie: Mm-hmm. 00:37:21.817 --> 00:37:23.737 Gene Tavernetti: And I think that is an issue. 00:37:24.067 --> 00:37:24.157 Mm-hmm. 00:37:24.347 --> 00:37:25.157 that is an issue. 00:37:25.317 --> 00:37:28.947 We were working with a school recently and we walked through 00:37:28.947 --> 00:37:33.987 classrooms and there were like 15 different platforms being used. 00:37:34.707 --> 00:37:39.537 And again, people who are interested in using platforms will find AI. 00:37:40.527 --> 00:37:41.577 We'll find something. 00:37:41.697 --> 00:37:44.067 People who aren't will say, Jesus, how am I? 00:37:44.067 --> 00:37:45.147 You know, there's 15. 00:37:45.177 --> 00:37:45.417 What? 00:37:45.417 --> 00:37:46.467 How am I gonna choose? 00:37:46.527 --> 00:37:46.587 Yeah. 00:37:46.647 --> 00:37:50.017 So I don't want, you don't need to answer that, but I just wanted to bring 00:37:50.017 --> 00:37:56.347 that up because that is another issue as we move forward with technology. 00:37:56.407 --> 00:38:00.057 You know, in schools is how do we deal with the multiple platforms? 00:38:00.252 --> 00:38:03.822 Kim: I think a lot of them will get eaten up by each other, and you'll see 00:38:03.822 --> 00:38:08.932 a lot more combining so that you, we won't need that many in the long run. 00:38:09.142 --> 00:38:13.992 And I think that teachers will find what is the valuable piece, 00:38:14.442 --> 00:38:17.532 like, I know that I would not be able to teach without snorkel. 00:38:18.032 --> 00:38:23.882 Because of the great feedback it gives, the multiple modalities I can put into 00:38:23.882 --> 00:38:28.712 snorkel and the fact that it allows my kids that verbal rehearsal before writing 00:38:28.802 --> 00:38:32.702 if I can't listen to them or they don't have a partner that day or whatever 00:38:33.002 --> 00:38:35.522 because of the way the tool works. 00:38:35.552 --> 00:38:36.807 So, I think that. 00:38:37.467 --> 00:38:40.377 While it's super fun to have, like I am very blessed. 00:38:40.377 --> 00:38:43.947 I have my pick of many different things in my district, but I have some that I 00:38:44.007 --> 00:38:47.277 pretty much just are my go-to and that other ones I don't use at all anymore. 00:38:48.057 --> 00:38:51.957 Josie: And I am figuring out what my go-tos are, you know? 00:38:51.957 --> 00:38:56.187 So I try to use all of them and experiment with all of them. 00:38:56.187 --> 00:39:00.837 And then I get, I ask the students like, which did you prefer? 00:39:01.147 --> 00:39:02.647 But there are too many. 00:39:02.677 --> 00:39:04.237 And so I think if you. 00:39:05.047 --> 00:39:08.767 My goal for this year was to figure out what I really like 00:39:08.977 --> 00:39:11.047 and what I'm gonna stick to. 00:39:11.107 --> 00:39:15.827 And I'm doing that slowly because there are so many, but each, you know, 00:39:15.827 --> 00:39:18.937 each has a different purpose really, you know, or I could, you know, I 00:39:18.937 --> 00:39:22.792 could put a graphic organizer and snorkel but I can't upload a lot of 00:39:22.792 --> 00:39:24.917 reading to it, which I wish I could. 00:39:25.157 --> 00:39:29.537 I can upload readings to give context in class companion, but I can't put 00:39:29.537 --> 00:39:32.867 graphic organizers in it if I want them to fill out a graphic organizer. 00:39:32.867 --> 00:39:36.529 So, you know, finding one that has all of it would be great. 00:39:36.899 --> 00:39:42.734 Gene Tavernetti: And I think Kim again, as an outsider to these as I just read about 00:39:42.734 --> 00:39:46.224 the next thing that people are using and the next thing that people are using you 00:39:46.224 --> 00:39:47.784 use the term they're eating each other. 00:39:48.304 --> 00:39:51.184 But they're certainly competing with each other. 00:39:51.189 --> 00:39:51.289 Oh yeah. 00:39:51.319 --> 00:39:53.704 Like, oh, this one has this, we're gonna have that. 00:39:53.944 --> 00:39:54.004 Yeah. 00:39:54.004 --> 00:39:56.074 And then it comes out with the new super version. 00:39:56.124 --> 00:39:59.944 And then now is snorkel, is that a free version or you just have to wear the 00:39:59.944 --> 00:40:01.774 snorkel and then you can get it for free? 00:40:02.234 --> 00:40:04.939 Kim: There's a teacher version that I believe. 00:40:05.294 --> 00:40:05.984 Is free. 00:40:05.984 --> 00:40:11.084 I'm not sure on all of that, but I do, I'm 99% sure there's a free teacher version. 00:40:11.324 --> 00:40:11.504 Gene Tavernetti: Mm-hmm. 00:40:11.834 --> 00:40:15.154 You know, and I think we are gonna go into full disclosure here mode 00:40:15.154 --> 00:40:20.784 for a second, and that is the three of us are currently writing a book 00:40:20.784 --> 00:40:23.590 about ED protocols and addressing. 00:40:24.157 --> 00:40:28.617 Some of the issues that we talked about right now and a big issue is the fact 00:40:28.617 --> 00:40:31.197 that technology doesn't teach for you. 00:40:31.197 --> 00:40:31.827 Mm-hmm. 00:40:32.457 --> 00:40:32.697 Right? 00:40:32.697 --> 00:40:35.397 You still have to, you still have to do the teaching. 00:40:35.727 --> 00:40:39.687 And, um, anything else Kim, you wanna say about that book? 00:40:40.752 --> 00:40:43.962 Kim: No, I think you, it's gonna be really helpful for people to take 00:40:43.962 --> 00:40:45.582 their teaching to the next step. 00:40:45.972 --> 00:40:49.702 Using, you know, as teachers, we there's a lot of things that we can 00:40:49.702 --> 00:40:54.872 complain about the planning time, the time, the grading time, all the things. 00:40:55.172 --> 00:40:58.985 And I. As much as I love being a teacher, I see the teacher 00:40:58.985 --> 00:41:01.025 martyrdom happen out there a lot. 00:41:01.025 --> 00:41:05.015 And so there's some things that you can do to really help a, alleviate the 00:41:05.015 --> 00:41:06.635 things that are stressful as a teacher. 00:41:06.915 --> 00:41:10.515 But they take time to learn and they, but they will benefit you and 00:41:10.515 --> 00:41:14.835 your kids and that's where as your protocols come in and hopefully it's 00:41:14.835 --> 00:41:17.115 something that will, your listeners can. 00:41:17.190 --> 00:41:20.430 Find resources for, we've got a whole Facebook community that 00:41:20.430 --> 00:41:21.720 jean's gonna link in there. 00:41:21.810 --> 00:41:25.080 And I actually have a little, well, it was supposed to be a one pager, but it 00:41:25.080 --> 00:41:28.710 turned out to be a little bit longer than that about how we can fix the flaws in 00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:30.510 writing instruction with edge protocols. 00:41:31.014 --> 00:41:31.304 Gene Tavernetti: Okay, 00:41:31.577 --> 00:41:32.177 Josie: That was good. 00:41:32.477 --> 00:41:32.747 Gene Tavernetti: Yeah. 00:41:33.227 --> 00:41:33.647 Okay. 00:41:34.037 --> 00:41:35.567 You know what, we can go on forever. 00:41:35.567 --> 00:41:37.337 Do you guys have any questions for me? 00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:38.989 Josie: Yes, I do. 00:41:40.099 --> 00:41:42.079 So you're an instructional coach, Jean? 00:41:42.409 --> 00:41:42.529 Yes. 00:41:42.529 --> 00:41:46.369 So what, when you're talking to teachers about writing 00:41:46.369 --> 00:41:49.159 instruction, what do you face? 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:54.049 Any resistance or what do you see is, you know, an issue 00:41:54.859 --> 00:41:56.299 when you are coaching teachers? 00:41:56.959 --> 00:42:00.024 Gene Tavernetti: I don't know if I'd call it resistance necessarily, but 00:42:00.024 --> 00:42:04.404 I think there's one thing that I see. 00:42:04.839 --> 00:42:09.129 Consistently missing, and that is a piece of writing is 00:42:09.129 --> 00:42:11.709 done like, for example, A CER. 00:42:12.009 --> 00:42:12.489 Okay. 00:42:12.759 --> 00:42:16.779 About, about some content before that's done, that the students 00:42:16.779 --> 00:42:19.869 know what a good CER looks like. 00:42:19.869 --> 00:42:23.649 What are the components, if you were to read this, to have the students 00:42:23.649 --> 00:42:27.759 read it and based on the information that you gave them, the criteria 00:42:27.759 --> 00:42:31.899 that you gave them for what should be in a good claim, can they do now? 00:42:32.019 --> 00:42:33.129 Can they evaluate the claim? 00:42:33.771 --> 00:42:34.101 Okay. 00:42:34.101 --> 00:42:34.826 Can they evaluate this? 00:42:34.826 --> 00:42:35.346 They have to know what 00:42:35.346 --> 00:42:36.386 Josie: a claim is, first of all. 00:42:36.386 --> 00:42:36.586 Exactly. 00:42:36.586 --> 00:42:39.421 They have to know the difference between a statement and a claim. 00:42:39.631 --> 00:42:41.506 That's one of the first lessons I usually do. 00:42:41.526 --> 00:42:44.611 Gene Tavernetti: so that would be one of those things that I think so often 00:42:44.611 --> 00:42:50.211 we jump to the output because and I'm gonna blame curriculum a lot of times 00:42:50.211 --> 00:42:54.981 is that here's an assignment to do and then the assignment doesn't go well. 00:42:55.756 --> 00:42:57.736 Because there wasn't enough instruction. 00:42:57.916 --> 00:42:59.686 And so what's the output? 00:42:59.716 --> 00:43:02.806 It's usually a below grade level type of writing. 00:43:02.836 --> 00:43:05.356 It's a very rudimentary type of writing. 00:43:05.596 --> 00:43:10.726 So, so that's always difficult to slow the teachers down in the writing 00:43:10.726 --> 00:43:13.036 process to do what you just described. 00:43:13.036 --> 00:43:16.486 Like what's the difference between a claim and a statement what's the relationship 00:43:16.486 --> 00:43:17.866 between the claim and the evidence? 00:43:17.866 --> 00:43:20.746 What's the relationship between, you know, all of those things. 00:43:21.136 --> 00:43:25.346 And actually, be given samples just like it's a nacho. 00:43:25.706 --> 00:43:29.636 And now we're gonna go back and say what's good, what needs to be fixed? 00:43:29.636 --> 00:43:30.626 How can we fix it? 00:43:31.036 --> 00:43:35.236 And because I think it goes back to what you were saying about the 00:43:35.316 --> 00:43:41.126 your kids getting AI to evaluate a paragraph and then give them feedback, 00:43:41.126 --> 00:43:42.356 and now they wanna go change it. 00:43:42.626 --> 00:43:42.986 Okay. 00:43:43.046 --> 00:43:46.326 Well one of the things that I would want at some point. 00:43:46.956 --> 00:43:50.046 And I don't know if we talked about this before or not, Josie is have the kid 00:43:50.106 --> 00:43:54.756 maybe after the fifth try, you know, have the kid come to the teacher and 00:43:54.756 --> 00:43:59.706 say, you can't move, go on until you evaluate the feedback that you were given. 00:43:59.826 --> 00:43:59.916 Right. 00:44:00.306 --> 00:44:00.636 You know? 00:44:00.636 --> 00:44:00.936 Well, that's 00:44:00.936 --> 00:44:03.486 Josie: the thing, that's the thing that I love about those AI 00:44:03.486 --> 00:44:07.126 tools is that, you know, they're reading the feedback and then. 00:44:07.911 --> 00:44:09.891 Trying to figure out how to apply it. 00:44:09.951 --> 00:44:12.201 And that's when they're using those tools. 00:44:12.291 --> 00:44:14.571 That's where I find, that's what I'm doing. 00:44:14.571 --> 00:44:18.201 I'm walking around the room helping them to understand what the feedback is 00:44:18.201 --> 00:44:21.321 telling them, and I love that part of it. 00:44:21.861 --> 00:44:26.601 But yes, at some point they need to stop and get some real 00:44:26.601 --> 00:44:29.913 Gene Tavernetti: help, you know, well, prove that they know what 00:44:29.913 --> 00:44:33.843 the feedback is, you know, because I could imagine somebody, um. 00:44:34.343 --> 00:44:35.723 You know, you wanna hang a picture. 00:44:36.420 --> 00:44:40.651 It is, it's crooked, and somebody standing across the room says, okay, little more 00:44:40.651 --> 00:44:41.986 to the right, little more to the oh. 00:44:42.076 --> 00:44:43.726 Little more this way, little more that way. 00:44:44.086 --> 00:44:47.526 And the person moving the picture doesn't know what's going on. 00:44:47.916 --> 00:44:49.746 They're just doing what they're told. 00:44:49.746 --> 00:44:53.736 So they're getting feedback, making changes without any knowledge. 00:44:53.786 --> 00:44:56.696 Or understanding of the changes that, that they make. 00:44:56.936 --> 00:44:59.486 And so whether they're doing AI or not, 00:44:59.826 --> 00:45:06.446 That's the second piece I think is getting teachers to ask the kids to evaluate what 00:45:06.446 --> 00:45:12.026 they have done or to evaluate a classmates based on the criteria that's been given 00:45:12.526 --> 00:45:14.746 and usually they've given good criteria. 00:45:15.551 --> 00:45:20.211 But the kids don't have to generate product based on that criteria or 00:45:20.211 --> 00:45:22.251 evaluate based on that criteria. 00:45:22.521 --> 00:45:26.071 So those are the two things that it's not hard to convince them. 00:45:26.461 --> 00:45:27.031 I think it's just. 00:45:28.276 --> 00:45:32.686 Many of them have never seen it broken down like that and so they 00:45:32.686 --> 00:45:35.806 just get frustrated 'cause the kids don't get better and because they're 00:45:35.836 --> 00:45:40.726 only writing, you know, a few times a quarter, the kids don't get better 00:45:41.116 --> 00:45:44.356 and then they go to the next year and the next year where reviewing the 00:45:44.356 --> 00:45:47.356 same writing process all over again. 00:45:48.224 --> 00:45:50.024 Josie: I think it would be helpful if districts. 00:45:50.524 --> 00:45:54.694 I know mine doesn't, you know, I'm sure there are that do where there's 00:45:54.694 --> 00:45:58.444 like one, they've adopted some kind of writing program and it's used 00:45:58.444 --> 00:46:03.724 consistently all the way through, you know, so everyone has a common language. 00:46:03.724 --> 00:46:05.764 Everybody's calling things the same thing. 00:46:06.084 --> 00:46:09.384 You know, I find when they come to me from elementary schools, 00:46:09.384 --> 00:46:12.474 depending on where they were, some call it like a race paragraph. 00:46:12.474 --> 00:46:15.264 Some call it a CER, some call it an ace paragraph. 00:46:15.324 --> 00:46:16.164 You know, it's not. 00:46:17.064 --> 00:46:17.904 Consistent. 00:46:17.904 --> 00:46:22.554 And that is partially because, well, mostly because teachers are having 00:46:22.554 --> 00:46:26.064 to supplement with so much other stuff because it's not embedded. 00:46:26.154 --> 00:46:26.574 Right. 00:46:26.574 --> 00:46:31.524 So I think that would, I think that would improve a, I think that would 00:46:31.524 --> 00:46:33.744 help overall improvement of writing 00:46:34.354 --> 00:46:36.514 Gene Tavernetti: As you're saying that Josie, you know what I'm imagining? 00:46:37.278 --> 00:46:41.281 John Lennon you know, singing, I know I'm a Dreamer, Because 00:46:41.381 --> 00:46:42.611 I don't know how we do that. 00:46:42.611 --> 00:46:42.946 You're not the only 00:46:42.946 --> 00:46:43.146 Josie: one. 00:46:43.341 --> 00:46:45.921 Gene Tavernetti: I don't know how we do that in our country. 00:46:45.921 --> 00:46:47.841 I don't know how we do that in our state. 00:46:48.291 --> 00:46:50.241 I don't know how we do that in our counties. 00:46:50.421 --> 00:46:51.261 We tried that 00:46:51.261 --> 00:46:54.701 Kim: In a previous district I was in with a writing program and 00:46:55.131 --> 00:46:56.331 there was that common language. 00:46:56.331 --> 00:46:57.651 There was the common color coding. 00:46:57.651 --> 00:46:59.451 There was all that, and then there was. 00:47:00.171 --> 00:47:04.641 The middle school people, you know, didn't like the cookie cutter ness of it. 00:47:04.751 --> 00:47:09.656 They didn't like they disagreed with some of the color coding, and so like, you 00:47:09.656 --> 00:47:11.426 weren't gonna make any of them happy. 00:47:11.426 --> 00:47:13.616 And so then they're changing the color coding. 00:47:13.616 --> 00:47:15.446 But like, all the kids come to them knowing this, so. 00:47:15.996 --> 00:47:19.116 And while I understand where you're coming from, Josie, I don't know 00:47:19.116 --> 00:47:23.626 that it's possible because those of us, like in elementary, our goal is 00:47:23.656 --> 00:47:27.766 like complete sentences, a coherent thought, and you know, all that. 00:47:27.766 --> 00:47:27.981 And then. 00:47:28.586 --> 00:47:30.986 In high school there's something like completely different. 00:47:31.406 --> 00:47:35.456 And I know my one son had like a quiz on MLA format that he took like 00:47:35.456 --> 00:47:37.436 10 times until he got MLA format. 00:47:37.436 --> 00:47:37.796 Correct. 00:47:37.796 --> 00:47:40.166 And I don't know that's the hill to die on these days. 00:47:40.406 --> 00:47:44.726 You know, like we can have like MLA format, we can pretty much go. 00:47:45.261 --> 00:47:48.481 Ask a website to put it in ml MLA format for us. 00:47:48.481 --> 00:47:51.061 And does that really mean I know what I'm talking about? 00:47:51.061 --> 00:47:52.341 So, that's a good point. 00:47:52.341 --> 00:47:54.816 And writing is that tool for communication. 00:47:55.096 --> 00:47:56.266 We do a lot more. 00:47:56.861 --> 00:47:59.351 Oral communication I think nowadays. 00:47:59.351 --> 00:48:03.621 And less on that writing communication unless they're short bursts in kind of 00:48:03.621 --> 00:48:07.101 those emails to get your point across type of thing, which are important. 00:48:07.401 --> 00:48:11.271 But I don't see like the essay writing happening as much anymore in real life. 00:48:11.691 --> 00:48:13.706 Gene Tavernetti: Ladies, thank you so much. 00:48:14.121 --> 00:48:17.571 And before we go, Kim, it's gonna be in the show notes, 00:48:17.571 --> 00:48:20.091 but what is the Facebook group? 00:48:20.721 --> 00:48:23.511 Kim: It is called the Edge of Protocols community, and we 00:48:23.511 --> 00:48:25.461 have almost 25,000 members. 00:48:25.701 --> 00:48:29.631 It's been called the Happiest Place on the internet, and some people reactivate 00:48:29.631 --> 00:48:32.181 their Facebook just to join us. 00:48:32.331 --> 00:48:32.391 Yeah. 00:48:32.461 --> 00:48:34.231 People post all sorts of questions. 00:48:34.231 --> 00:48:38.671 You get help almost immediately from one of the authors or other kind of 00:48:38.671 --> 00:48:41.501 like, I'll call 'em power users and. 00:48:42.046 --> 00:48:45.526 It's just a really genuine, great place to be. 00:48:45.526 --> 00:48:45.701 People sharing 00:48:45.941 --> 00:48:47.086 Josie: templates and things like that. 00:48:47.116 --> 00:48:48.526 It's what a PLC should be. 00:48:49.361 --> 00:48:50.231 Gene Tavernetti: And speaking of every 00:48:50.231 --> 00:48:51.701 Josie: template I make, I put on there 00:48:52.676 --> 00:48:56.386 Gene Tavernetti: And Josie, you also share, you have a nice audience on TikTok. 00:48:56.386 --> 00:48:57.616 What is your handle? 00:48:57.686 --> 00:48:58.526 Is that the right thing? 00:48:58.526 --> 00:48:59.726 Is that what the kids say? 00:48:59.726 --> 00:49:00.896 Is they still say a handle? 00:49:00.896 --> 00:49:00.936 I guess. 00:49:00.936 --> 00:49:01.046 I know I'm 00:49:01.046 --> 00:49:04.526 Josie: too old for, I'm too old for TikTok, but I use it and. 00:49:05.271 --> 00:49:13.131 I do like 62nd PDs basically, It's at JWA teaches that's my handle, 00:49:13.491 --> 00:49:17.151 and I just talk about what I'm doing and sometimes I think, oh 00:49:17.151 --> 00:49:18.411 gosh, I don't wanna do this anymore. 00:49:18.411 --> 00:49:19.191 It's so embarrassing. 00:49:19.191 --> 00:49:22.821 But then I get a message saying, thank you so much, you've really helped me. 00:49:22.821 --> 00:49:25.341 And then I just keep doing it because of that. 00:49:25.341 --> 00:49:26.331 Gene Tavernetti: So They're great. 00:49:26.421 --> 00:49:27.291 Thank you Josie. 00:49:27.291 --> 00:49:28.131 Thank you Kim. 00:49:28.221 --> 00:49:29.836 And we will talk to you soon. 00:49:31.983 --> 00:49:34.623 If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:49:34.923 --> 00:49:38.013 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, 00:49:38.233 --> 00:49:40.493 Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:49:41.183 --> 00:49:47.343 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, 00:49:47.773 --> 00:49:51.263 and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:49:51.673 --> 00:49:52.103 Tesscg. 00:49:53.093 --> 00:49:59.643 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about 00:49:59.663 --> 00:50:05.513 ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and 00:50:05.633 --> 00:50:08.463 Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.