[00:00:00] Jenna: In the early days. You build. Frankenstein approaches. You bring on tools, you start in a spreadsheet, you go here, you build your own tool for this, you cobble things together and all bets are off. [00:00:11] You can use whatever you want to get the job done And then in larger companies, You've inherited all those systems. It's not a priority. You need to hit your revenue goals, you need to move along this journey. And no one wants to stop and deal with the housekeeping. how do you get out of it? You don't, like, you really just have to, you know, have really brave leaders, who are willing to stop. you're just gonna end up like behind all your competitors, and just try and make the point regularly of what that person's value is to revenue in other ways, I hate when rev ops is just working on reporting. That's not the job of rev ops, right? And that's not the job. And just like cleaning up systems and contacts, that's not the job. [00:00:48] ​ [00:01:14] In This Episode --- [00:01:14] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of chatting with Jenna Kilner, VP of Marketing at Work Leap. In this episode, we cover how to prioritize tech debt, how to persist through broken systems and imperfect data. Why first principles matter more than tools, how to build business judgment in technical marketing roles, and why confidence without humility is dangerous. [00:01:37] All that and a bunch more stuff after a quick word from two of our awesome partners. [00:01:40] ​ [00:03:44] Phil: Jenna, thank you so much for your time today. [00:03:46] Really excited to chat. [00:03:48] Jenna: It is so fun to be here. Really appreciate you having me, Phil. [00:03:51] Phil: You gave some really good pre-interview answers to some of the topics we chatted about before recording here, and one of my [00:04:00] favorite things that you said is that you've never entered an organization where the data felt like it was connected end to end. And I also have never seen this. Like you do these interviews with companies and like to talk about the tech stack and the tools, or you even see like people post like these really cool flow charts and whiteboards of all the tools you're using. [00:04:19] And then you go behind the scenes and it's just like not nearly as sophisticated as, as they try to say, as like a lot of duct tape and some like manual systems stitched together there. Um, [00:04:30] 1. How to Manage Marketing Tech Debt During Rapid Growth --- [00:04:30] Phil: I'm curious to ask you if you agree here, but like my running theory for why. There isn't really a company that has like a perfect deck stack, a perfect data, uh, connected altogether is that companies are changing all the time. [00:04:42] Like whether they're growing or they're not growing fast enough and they're restructuring, like there's new people, there's new teams forming all the time, and people are like adding new tools, new processes for the little part of the funnel or process that they care about. And things like systems, [00:05:00] processes, technical debt, like all those things add up over time because. [00:05:03] Like most of the execs don't really care about those things. They don't hit revenue goals. What do you think is the main reason for this? Like does anyone have their like data stuff [00:05:11] Jenna: Well, first of all, like ear maps to all my prior and current employers because you're, you're doing great. You know, your systems are great. Now, um, in all, in all honesty, big and small, like there's, you've sort of faced the same problems, right? In the early days. You build. Frankenstein approaches. You bring on tools, the things that you're working, you start in a spreadsheet, you go here, you build your own tool for this, you, you know, you cobble things together and all sort of bets are off. [00:05:39] You can use whatever you want to get the job done in the early days of a company. Right. And then in larger companies, like, let's skip ahead, you know, many years or many rounds and all that. You've inherited all those systems. But you don't grow out of all of them at the same time. 'cause they're not all working in unison. [00:05:56] So like you said, you scale too fast. It's not a [00:06:00] priority. You sort of just need to get the work done. You need to hit your revenue goals, you need to move along this journey. And no one wants to stop and deal with the housekeeping. It's the same as tech debt. It's the same. Um, as, you know, sales, like sales debt exists, right? [00:06:13] Sales and marketing debt exists and this is it. And, um. It, it's how do you get out of it? You don't, like, you really just have to, you know, have really brave leaders, founders, owners, CEOs who are willing to stop. Um, I, I'm, I'm currently working with one of those people who last year just said, it's time for us to clean up house because there's never a good time for this. [00:06:35] Um, and you know, it was. It is so takes so long. It's so much work, but it is so necessary and it's very painful in the process. And you wanna know why it's not moving faster. We're all hardwired to be like, let's go, let's go, let's go. Like move faster. And you have to Frankenstein around that too while you're waiting, right? [00:06:55] That like sales and marketing still needs to report at end of quarter, end of year. We still need to report to the board [00:07:00] all of those things. How do you get that data? You have to Frankenstein an approach. You have to pull 10 different tools together. You know? Uh, when I entered one org. A sales leader told me she was literally using eight different tools to do her weekly reports. [00:07:10] I, my job was on the floor, like, that's poor thing. Like, that's awful. That's not productive. That's the worst use of her time. But no one had the capacity to stop and no one had raised it enough. Now. I will say, I think it takes intelligent and strong leaders to help prioritize those things for their team members. [00:07:30] And it is a bit of a loss of leadership, in my opinion, when you see those bumps that they haven't been dressed because you're dragging people behind. It's just like when you keep a, a team member in the team that's not performing. Same idea. And so for me. I think it's a leader's job to like move things out of the way and pull the like white way. [00:07:52] Raise the white flag. At that moment when you're like, Hey, this is no, this is hurting us more than it's helping us. We need to clear, like [00:08:00] we need to make room in the budget. We have to slow down and raise that to the foun. Like identify that to the exec team, the leadership team, whatever the, the structure is at that time, or the VP or whoever it is. [00:08:09] And say it's time, like we need to pull the plug here. It's time to invest in this system. We've outgrown it. It's not talking to this system. But you know, when I was at RBC Ventures, those were massive systems that we had to, those took a long time, but you still need that person or that team that's going to. [00:08:25] Like bulldoze and say, Hey, it's time now to clear the way and you have to build better. But again, then you start in one thing and then the other one lags behind. So when I was thinking about this, it's kind of like a house. When you like plug one hole, you're like, you have a leak here. You've clear like you think it's going great and then like something else breaks and like it's never going to be perfect and you can't expect perfect, but you also can't let it go to a state of disrepair. [00:08:50] Because then, you know, the value of your house is just gonna crumble. And so I, I love analogy and I think that's a silly one, but maybe it's helpful and like if the person running the house isn't taking [00:09:00] care of it, then you know, it's the same in leadership and management. So I, I don't know if that fully answers it, but that's how I feel about tech systems. [00:09:07] They're never good. You have to frank and sign your way through them to get the answers you need. Um, but. You also need strong leadership of like when it's too much or too disorganized and not clean enough, and systems aren't talking and causing other downstream [00:09:21] Phil: no, it, it's a great answer. I, I think you're speaking to the core for a lot of listener base is marketing operations folks, and they're the ones championing all of those. Like things that are on the backlog that are just tech debt related. They're process related because people oftentimes will complain to the marketing ops person or the Rev ops person that I'm using eight tools to build this report. [00:09:44] It makes no sense. And oftentimes this rev ops person has like a bunch of stuff on their list on top of things and yeah, like I like your point about. It does come down to leadership. Like at some point we need to just have like an understanding of this thing might [00:10:00] not lead to revenue tomorrow. It's not a sales campaign that's gonna like help us hit our quarterly number, but it, it's gonna make everyone's life easier. [00:10:08] And I think that, you know, [00:10:10] 2. How to Prioritize RevOps Tech Debt Without Perfect ROI Models --- [00:10:10] Phil: this idea of how do we attach. Process improvement in tech debt to a revenue number. It's easier said than done. Like oftentimes I've been able to say like, all right, this is not revenue generating today, but here are the like long term butterfly effect impacts on revenue. But it's hard to do and sometimes it's super abstract and fluffy, right? [00:10:32] Like this person who's spending all this time building a report, jumping in and out of eight tools, alright, let's figure out a way to quantify the time spent doing that versus. How fast it could be. Okay, how much time savings is that? Is do we associate that to that person's salary? 'cause now they're doing something else. [00:10:50] Do we associate till then? They're a, like that whole discussion about like, how do we quantify that? It's, it's, it's a way that we've been able to prioritize it, but it's [00:11:00] hard to do sometimes. Like just doing the thing is faster than trying to quantify it and then put a number to it. What are your thoughts there? [00:11:06] Jenna: I try and stay away from quantifying, to be honest, and just try and make the point regularly of what that person's value is to revenue in other ways, right? Like I hate when rev ops is just working on reporting. That's not the job of rev ops, right? And that's not the job. And just like cleaning up systems and contacts, that's not the job. [00:11:23] The job is to enable sales and marketing to find. And to hunt and to do better at their jobs, right? For it to run better campaigns, to run better sales plays, to be more effective overall, to find patterns, to drive those insights. And later we'll talk about like the business and tech crossover there, but the strongest rev ops folks who can show that value can be like. [00:11:44] You're wasting half my day on this when I could be finding patterns and helping you find more sales play, like more insights that would drive better, like and stronger revenue. So it's, it's tough to make that case, but. [00:12:00] You strong leadership shouldn't need that case. It's just about, okay, here's the time. [00:12:03] We have these headwinds with us right now. We're at this point in revenue. It's holding us back. Like it you, I hope that you're not like, you know, it's this many hours versus this many hours. That's hard. That's a hard, that argument to win because you can't show the proof of future, like better insights and like using your other side of your brain on that. [00:12:22] But, um, it's more about timing, I think, and like. The factors in your company that say, okay, now is the moment, these are the other things we need to be ready for this, or we're lagging here. And um, you know, where was I reading something? I forget the example now. Um, but it's like every time you don't, oh, it was in the airline industry. [00:12:42] I was reading a really interesting report on like, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fumble the example, but the airline that like took the time to like. Overhaul their tech systems. I wanna say it was like United is like winning 10 times above the other airlines in the US because, and then each year they [00:13:00] can invest what, what, whatever, a hundred million into advancing and the rest are lagging. [00:13:04] So if you end up in that situation in like, you didn't pull the plug, you've just been like, bandaided, bandaid, and bandaid, you're, you're just gonna end up like behind all your competitors, behind being able to advance systems to like keep up or even get ahead. So. Um, I think it just, again, back to strong leadership and knowing like the trade-offs and having been around the block and seen patterns, again, we'll talk about that, but it's, uh, less about knowing exact and more about being able to convince, uh, the people around you of the trade-offs that are gonna happen. [00:13:35] Phil: Yeah, I love it. The, the other way too is like interdependencies, like, oh, this is the project you think is revenue, like facing and, and you want to do this thing. We can't do that until this is solved. This like data project that we've been backlog or now you want to do a. All these cool things with ai, like guess what? [00:13:52] Our data quality project that we've been deprioritizing for two years now, we need to do that thing. Like interdependencies is another way to do it. But, [00:14:00] um, this, this whole like tech debt, messy data, Franken stacks, like we all live in it. And, uh, there, there isn't a perfect world where you don't have to deal with some of those things. [00:14:10] Um, but they do lead to problems like. Imperfect data and tools, not talking to each other and having silos of data and people needing to log in out of eight tools to like build a report. Um, [00:14:23] 3. Reasoning Through Broken Systems and Imperfect Data --- [00:14:23] Phil: you said something that was super cool, like the, the lack of systems talking to each other and this complexity with like, no perfect tech stack is shouldn't be an excuse to stop making decisions. [00:14:34] Um, most teams like don't have that luxury of waiting for the perfect infrastructure like we just talked about. Um. But I'm curious if you can share like how we should reason through these gaps, these inconsistencies of partial signals when it comes to data. Like a lot of folks will say like, you need to separate directional insights from precision, but how do you know if the direction is accurate? [00:14:56] If we have no idea how precise the data is in [00:15:00] the first place? [00:15:01] Jenna: Yeah, I mean there's, everything is unknowable, you know, like you just can't possibly, uh, predict everything, and so you do have to. As a leader, you have to be willing to make decisions and operate. It's like part of the job description description. Um, without all of the facts, you can try and gather them. [00:15:21] You can try and, you know, survey, get as much inputs as you can, but at the end of the day, you te you regularly have to make calls without the full picture. [00:15:30] Phil: Yeah. [00:15:31] Jenna: You often don't have the luxury, and if you do, you're probably operating too slowly. Um, right there, there are moments where you're so ahead of things, but then the information's probably gonna change by the time you get to the finish line. [00:15:43] Right. So I think it's, you know, I entered. Um, I've entered, uh, you know, recently, you know, an org where I really didn't have the data connectivity that I needed to make recommendations quickly, but I didn't really have a choice not to try and figure out how to get it. And it, I got imperfect data, but [00:16:00] I got directional data that was better than no data. [00:16:03] Right. And I think that that, and then, you know, as the months progressed the way, it's my job also to say. And make and, and make it very clear, here are the assumptions that we made. Here's the data we're working with. This is what we believe the bet should be. In three months, I'm probably gonna shift that and then help my team sort of see that that's like, that's okay to operate. [00:16:21] And that's part of the startup life. That's part of tech life. That's honestly part of most business. I think. I don't, I don't know, business. That's not you. You have to operate within those, uh, constraints and then evolve and always be say, like thinking about, um. What could change? How would this be different if I had new information? [00:16:42] So think through that. If this proved to be wrong, would I have changed strategy? Would I not? How quickly, you know, and sort of err on that side, on that continuum maybe and say, um, and, and that's how I would make plans and, and think through those. Um. Uh, you can't ever [00:17:00] have a perfect picture and even perfect. [00:17:02] Best systems that are talking together will still sometimes produce results that aren't clean or insights that aren't, um, perfect, right? Because it's all up to the interpreter. And now how the. Court was built and who interprets it and what conclusions they're coming to. We all know that in ops and finance and in mar, like you can take one set of data and tell one story, and then someone else can tell an entirely different story if they're looking at three more columns. [00:17:29] So I think that's really important that everyone is. Um, looking at it from many lenses when they're looking at data, but in the absence, let's say, of market data or TAM data or you know, here's the, the customer numbers in this market that I'm trying to assess and figure things out. You have to take what you can and make insights based on that, and then like try to triangulate it. [00:17:51] Based on your gut, your feelings, the inputs, and then experience of folks on the team. Um, in the absence of those, you sort of just have to put numbers on a wall and [00:18:00] hope that those are the right targets. So the right numbers, I mean, we're talking so abstractly, my answer would for sure change depending on the type of, you know, goals, targets, numbers we're looking at. [00:18:08] But holistically, that's how I would approach it. Uh, it definitely makes some people uncomfortable. Uh, right. Like it's hard to operate that way. And sometimes, you know, leaders, CEOs, founders, owners, they want certainty, but they also, they're experiencing good. They know there isn't that certainty. And like, here are the, here are the options. [00:18:28] Present them with the, the assumptions and, um, the data behind it. And here's why. I think the, like, let's go together. Let's hold hands in this decision. Um, and that's a little bit also. My leadership philosophy around like, you know, no one really knows what they're doing, but they're all working with the best info that they have at the time. [00:18:47] And as long as you're transparent over communicative and clear about those things, then you all go in knowing why you made that decision. Here's the market we're going to, here's the positioning. We're gonna take this quarter or this year, [00:19:00] this, you know, H one, whatever the timeframe is. This next five years, everything is on a different timeframe. [00:19:05] Um, but if you're doing it together and you're continuously updating that input, that data and why you did that, then I think you're in a better position as a leader, as a team. Uh, and you might win some and you might lose some, and that's, that's okay, right? Like you, you can't get 'em all. So that's my approach there. [00:19:23] 4. How High Performers Progress Anyway --- [00:19:23] Phil: Have you seen, like do you think of certain patterns you've seen from folks on your team that maybe are like high performers that have continued to progress? Like despite those constraints like that on perfect world, like how we build advantages that aren't dependent on this like environment being perfect and being clean all the time. [00:19:43] Is it folks that are like translating. Crazy chaos in the tech stack into narratives that other people in the business like care about it and can act on. Is it about staying closer to the work as long as possible so you're not too far removed? Is it investing in like learning [00:20:00] emotional resilience? Like what are the things that come to mind when you think of like patterns that that jump out for people that are like effective during those situations? [00:20:09] Jenna: Yeah, I mean you touched on a few, obviously, emotional resilience in the tech world is important. It's a lot of ping pong of of who whiplash and ping pong and all that. Even with the best leaders, like market changes and things have to change. Um, the. Having the expectation that things will change is critical. [00:20:26] Like, you know, every startup, the only con change like constant is change. Like that's true for a reason. You know, the cliches are true. I the strongest high performers that I'll see have the ability and the desire to go with the flow. They know that things are gonna change. They are prepared for that and they try and, um. [00:20:49] Expect it. They try and predict it a little bit, and they try, you know, say they're working on, you know, like a, a proposal positioning, uh, you know, next quarter's plan or presenting [00:21:00] data. These are the things that I see. Here's what's happening. It could go this way, this way, or this way. These are the signals. [00:21:06] Let's pa take this path, or this is the recommendation, right? Like leaders for high performers, like you need a strong opinion. You need to have that like direction that you're providing the leadership of the company. It doesn't have to be, uh, you need conviction around what you're doing. Um, and so those, you know, are, I see those traits often in high performers as like, you know, a belief in what they're doing and why, and. [00:21:30] It changes as the environment changes. As the market changes. But they should be the one, like it shouldn't be, it's not happening to them. The high performers don't feel like they're a victim of the environment. They see it coming because they're paying attention to signals, right? In marketing, they're like, oh yeah, I see this insight in my customer stories. [00:21:49] The the report saying here, customers are starting to talk about this. It's not a shock. If it's a shock, they're underperforming because they're not listening to the customer. Right. And across the board sales, [00:22:00] rev ops marketing, like everyone should be listening to customer calls or reading customer insights, or figuring out what's happening with the end user. [00:22:06] 'cause that's the whole point, right? And if it's a surprise, the direction's changed, or the market's changed, or if you're not paying attention to what's happening in the company. Like, you're missing, you're missing something if it's like, yeah. That to me is like above all else. Like, yes, you need emotional resilience. [00:22:20] Startups are hard, but you need to want to get into startups to get there. So let's assume you wanted that. You're in there, you're sticking it out, you're trying to be a high performer, or you self-select out, and that's okay too. Uh, tech is a special place and small, big, they're, they all have different feelings and, and, and stressors, but it's that signal. [00:22:38] I think it's not, it might happen fast, but it shouldn't be a surprise. [00:22:44] Phil: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. Like I, I totally relate to that side of it. Like you almost need to be invested on. Like the, the macro economics of the business. And I love your point about like, if you don't expect that your quarterly plan is [00:23:00] gonna change by the end of the quarter, like what are you doing in in tech or, or in startups. [00:23:05] Like I always joke this idea of like, why are we spending all these cycles planning when we know that the plan we just spent a week working on is not going to be the same thing in like two or three months from now? Like we had this company [00:23:19] where. It wasn't even quarterly plans, like a lot of companies that worked out. [00:23:24] It was like quarterly planning and, and that was fine. Like we did it ahead of time knowing that like, it was a pretty long horizon, like stuff could change. But I was at a company once where like we did these like big, like almost half of the month was spent planning for the next month, but then half of that next month was planning for the next month and it was like. [00:23:44] Counterintuitive because like we were spending all this time planning, but we were doing it so often that there was a lot of new inputs into like, the plans themselves. So like the quarterly side is not a lot of doing though, and it was like an [00:24:00] async company, a lot of written stuff. So, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's tough, but like. [00:24:05] Um, when I was working at that company, we were working in like, uh, like it was during COVID, and we went through like these, this crazy period of like three years of uncertainty. And I feel like the topic we're chatting about right now, a different kind of uncertainty that we're dealing with. Like nowadays we're dealing with like all kinds of different uncertainty with like AI blowing up and, and everything else happening around the world. [00:24:27] Um, I'm curious to get your take on like, [00:24:28] 5. How to Build Confidence With AI Through Small Experiments --- [00:24:28] Phil: how do you think we build confidence, um, like as leaders, but also folks on your team? By doing, learning and adjusting to these imperfect systems. Um, like sometimes my default with AI right now, especially. Is to treat ambiguity as like something that needs to be eliminated before I act on it. [00:24:48] Like before diving into AI agents and like cloud code, I need to fully understand the mechanics, the use cases, and it's often this big blocker because it seems like it. Big thing that [00:25:00] I have to do before I actually get into it. Something I'm trying to work on is to think of it as like an input and getting more comfortable with the idea of like, all right, here's a couple of smaller steps that I can take. [00:25:10] Here's what I don't know, and here's what I'm gonna try next. Like trying to lower the emotional cost of potentially being wrong and doing something wrong. What are your thoughts there? [00:25:19] Jenna: Yeah, I think the answer varies slightly based on like an IC role versus a team lead role versus someone whose goals are to be in management, depending on that. However, what does hold true is for sure. Breaking it down is critical, like you said, like, you know, you can never know everything before jumping in. [00:25:34] And so, um, I think part of everyone sort of like growth as they become, uh, more seasoned professionals and or especially as someone if they want, if their goal is team leadership is to let go of that need to. Have everything learned before they start or, um, you know, know and feel comfortable with it before they jump in. [00:25:53] I think that's like a life lesson in general. Like, you know, you have to feel, feel comfortable to not know what the end res [00:26:00] result is gonna be. I think it comes back to like team safety and your manager, your leader, your company. Like how, what's the threshold for, uh, mistakes? What's the threshold for trial and error, especially with new tools? [00:26:12] I think most, um. Companies would like to think that they're a safe place to try new tools, all this, but you have to assess like the risk. And you know, if you're testing a new tool on a very, like, high, like alert spot in the business, you probably have to be more careful, not do it there. Um, and you need that, you know, less ambiguity around, uh, you know, a customer touchpoint or something like that, that might, uh, cause ripples down an organization. [00:26:39] Um, but there are, I think, places that you can. Uh, test new and try new and not be scared to jump in. Um. Um, you know, from a, a leadership lens, like my view is that I, I want people on my team to be trying new things, to be exploring and pushing the boundaries of how things are done and not wait [00:27:00] for me to ask, uh, or for leadership to say, Hey, it's time to start using these tools like. [00:27:04] You like the, the team should be on the, the cutting and bleeding edge of what is possible and presenting sort of like, not side of desk, but like little tests of these things and not waiting until they feel like a hundred percent comfortable with everything, uh, to jump in there. For sure. I think everyone needs to be comfortable with like non-linear, very ambiguous, um, in this new tool age, um, and also. [00:27:29] It's so hard with remote and even in-office work, like how do you learn new tools like this without dedicated space and time that I is, is, is a fair concern, but also one that like there should be probably pair programming for non-tech. Non-developers, right? Like I, I believe that like, just watching and seeing how someone operates through their day using new tools, new systems could be quite eyeopening. [00:27:55] Um, whether that's like side by side, physically or virtually, I think there [00:28:00] are ways around, um, helping people feel more comfortable with new tools, um, depending on your comfort level and all that. But even just how people, like, I often think about this, forget ai, just like systems, how people are efficient, how they're productive. [00:28:13] You can read a blog post or something overlaying how someone does it, but until you like see or feel depending on your learning style or watch a YouTube video and do this like, but doing it with your coworkers might help accelerate things. So I think there are just so many different tricks and tools that leaders can operate. [00:28:28] And if you identify what that. You know, um, that tool is versus self-learning only as the only way to get ahead, which often feels like you need this whole like, time block. And who has that, right? Like really who has that? The other thing I'll say is as you, um, it's tangential, but as you grow in a leadership position, you do need to be and like team management and your time gets more constrained and you're no longer on one topic, like the comfort around. [00:28:52] Being able to complete things in shorter periods of time and context switch is so critical. So it's a bit on this side, but like, oh, I [00:29:00] don't have like two hours to dive into this proposal or memo. Like, you're never gonna get that. Um, you know, sometimes you try like late at night or whenever, early in the morning. [00:29:07] Some folks can do that. But if you don't have that time, like, what can you bang out in half an hour? You know, what can you do? And then switch to another call and then switch to another call and you really have to work that muscle. People will say, oh, you gotta time block this, like. When you're running a team with, you know, five to 10 direct reports and you know, let's call it, you know, 20 to 50 people or 150, depending on how big your org is and things like that, or 500 people under your org, you're not getting that dedicated deep work period during the day. [00:29:34] Like, your job is to enable people, but how do you like, so you have to have, figure out how to protect that thinking time, that production time, that learning time, uh, and carve it out. And you know, sometimes you do just need to hunker down on a Saturday and like learn, but. Again, how many of us really have that? [00:29:49] Unless you're, I don't know, I don't wanna [00:29:52] Phil: Don't have [00:29:53] kids. [00:29:54] Jenna: untethered, no children and all those things. So, um, there is a space and [00:30:00] time for that and, and you know, I, some of us might be envious of those folks still, but there, you know, you can still progress and learn and do all those things in different stages of your life. [00:30:09] I think. [00:30:10] Phil: Yeah, it definitely saw myself in, in different parts of your answers based on where I was in life. Like Oh yeah. Spending a Saturday diving into a new tool, like, yeah, it's totally a thing. Before I was married with like two kids, now it's just like, why? Why? Why would I open my laptop on a Saturday to work on something unless it allows me to like. [00:30:30] Spend more time at like dinner or in the evening. Like it, it's all about trade offs. But yeah, I love your answer. I, I feel like it is one of the reasons why, even myself, like I'm in AI tools every day, but then I see someone post on, on LinkedIn about this new tool and I just like get a bit of fomo and I'm like, ah, man, should I be dedicated more time to learn this and learn that? [00:30:50] ​ [00:32:28] Phil: ~I, I'm doing a lot of these like, uh, not a lot. Like, I have a couple of like high level, um, MarTech consulting gigs right now where~ where I'm working with two vendors that are building in AI and they're asking advice on like, the future of AI and MarTech and like, and, and build as someone who's knowledgeable. [00:32:41] 'cause I'm chatting with all these experts, like, not necessarily knowledgeable myself, but it, it's really crazy because like. We almost need to be leading. And, and [00:32:50] 6. How to Use Exit Planning and Cost Benefit Analysis for AI Tool Selection --- [00:32:50] Phil: you're probably dealing with this in, in your current position, like leading when the answers are temporary and certainty is almost an illusion when it comes to ai. [00:33:00] Like, who are we to say today that, you know, this is the thing we should be doing with ai. Like things are gonna change so fast. And you said this in, in your answer, um, ahead of chatting too, like, is your default first principles here? And, and if that is part of your answer, like. What does that mean exactly? [00:33:17] Can you give us a couple of examples of how you think about this? [00:33:20] Jenna: Yeah. So if we're talking about, you know, certainty is an illusion and what tools to use and how to pick the best one, and, you know, the, the promises of like, you know, nirvana. On the other side of this tech stack. Um, I think it's important to temper everyone's expectations around those things. And I think everyone's been around the block, knows that, right? [00:33:41] Like nothing is a panacea, but, um, you must like. You'd still need to dive in for new tools to advance the org. They don't have to be proven and like a hundred percent tested and all those things to benefit you, but it's a cost benefit of how much better and where on your tool stack do you need [00:34:00] something to solve a problem. [00:34:01] And you know, definitely look past the shiny lights of a lot of these tools. There are a lot of unfounded promises. There are a lot of, but that's not new. There's always been that depe, like, you know, AI is the current, uh, you know, du jour, but like antidote. But it's always been like, oh, our tool can do all these things and we can do all the, like, it's really, it, it, that hasn't changed. [00:34:23] Um, so it's reading through the bullshit and hope, sorry for swearing and, um, trying to, I guess, uncover what. What you're willing to risk things on and how you wanna structure that. And then also making sure that everyone is on the same page on expectations around this like solution. And that, you know, this should work for the next X period of time and it's gonna solve this problem, but then we might have to shift again and it's. [00:34:50] That's part of, I think, um, a, a pill that people don't love to swallow. They, you know, might be living in a historic time of like, this tool's [00:35:00] gonna be great for five, 10 years. Um, and that's not necessarily the case and it can cause quite a bit of upheaval, but hopefully the. Let's call it rip and replace of tools, it becomes more seamless. [00:35:10] That it's not as much as an upheaval, that it's not as hard to move over or expand, grow, um, you know, and trying to see through that before you dive into a new tool, like what is moving off this tool gonna look like? And, and planning through that, I think is incredibly valuable exercise to go through because you have to assume that you're not married to a tool forever, despite the desire to want to be. [00:35:32] Um, so the exit. The exit plan I think is key. And then the expectation setting. I dunno if that that answered part of the question. I think [00:35:39] Phil: Yeah, definitely. [00:35:40] 7. First principles matter more than tools --- [00:35:40] Phil: What, what do you think is like, is there a first principle that comes to mind that embodies, like your answer there a little bit like it, I know you said you were a big fan of constraints, create clarity, judgment, beats optimization. I feel like both of those are, are kinda like echoed a little bit in your answer. [00:35:56] Jenna: Yeah. I mean, I, constraints create clarity for me is one of [00:36:00] the. Most founding of the principles, foundational of the principles that I think guides a lot. Um, you know, it is helpful to operate everything you do within a constraint. You know, whether that be time, money, um. Those are really great ones, really easy ones. [00:36:17] But then also limitations around scale, team size, uh, targets. All of those things create sort of that boundary of which you can operate in which you, you can, you can spend years assessing tools and going around in circles. At the end of the day, for most things, decisions, tools, all of it. You really just need someone to dive. [00:36:35] You need someone to defend the reason why you need someone to have done like their due diligence and properly, but within the constraints you have and just move as opposed to letting things hold you back. Um, and that might flow a little bit into judgment beats optimization. I think in terms of. You know, you can optimize up till like, you know, the cows come home. [00:36:53] But, uh, at the end of the day, like you just really, again, have to jump in, make that call and use what you [00:37:00] have, um, at, at your disposal to operate and or go get it right. Like, uh, go get what you don't have and figure that out. And so I think again. The constraints sort of show you what you need. Uh, it doesn't mean to operate within like under or lower or worse. [00:37:15] It's just pushes you further I think. And, um, those are pretty foundational for how I operate. Anyone on my team listening will be like, yep, I've heard those things before. So like, let's just go, but like, here are the boundaries and, and here's why we're doing it. And, and let's make sure we're getting to the, the core of the, the problem or the, um, thing that we're trying to solve for. [00:37:36] Phil: One thing that I think becoming a leader and like growing up, the latter, so to speak in, in your career, is that like you get to embody those first principles and, and like leadership strategies and, and they evolve as you kind of like get your feet wet and, and that leadership world. Something that I've struggled with a lot in my career is the debate of. [00:37:56] Trying to stay close to the work and being true [00:38:00] to the operating mindset, knowing the lay of the land and tools and stuff like that, but then also investing time in like the one-on-one and like the leadership and building people and like having that executive rapport with other folks. And like, there's, there's so many things that the, the world of, of leadership when you're in a tech position, especially in marketing. [00:38:21] Um, you've said that leader should stay in the details as they. Grow into their leadership careers, even if they take on like a broader scope and their day-to-day is mostly with team members and a lot of other leaders. I think a lot of folks would disagree and, and say the opposite, like distance is necessary to scale hiring experts and trusting them to do the work. [00:38:42] Delegating. [00:38:43] 8. Why Staying Close to Execution Improves Marketing Leadership --- [00:38:43] Phil: What, what do leaders lose when they get too far from the work and, and how can they stay connected without like, becoming bottlenecks and, and having their, their team members feel like they're not being trusted. They're not getting like the, and like, I, I've felt that all the time, like on both sides. [00:39:00] Like, I get hired to do the work and then like the person just wants to like, still get their feet wet and stuff, and I feel like I'm being micromanaged a little bit. You know, like how, how do you deal with that? What are [00:39:10] your [00:39:10] Jenna: Yeah. I mean, I think staying close to the work does not mean you don't delegate and have team members do the work. I think like who do you wanna learn from? Like I wanna learn from leaders who actually are good at the craft and know what they're talking about. Right? Like if I. Uh, that, that's who I wanna learn from. [00:39:25] So I wanna be that person that isn't so out of touch with the, the weeds of marketing, sales, revenue. I wanna be able to answer questions, have a valid opinion. And to me that doesn't mean, like, that means staying close to the details. You need to know your, Like I think you really need to know what you're talking about. [00:39:40] If you're gonna run a, any part of the revenue org, any part of any org really. Um. That might mean leaning in and leaning out. And I think sometimes it surprises people that like you can, that I, that I, I lean in, uh, sometimes in, in the weeds. But I think it's also appreciated in that I, it's not just a figurehead role. [00:39:58] I'm not just here to [00:40:00] like delegate and tell people what to do. And, and, you know, coach, I think you have to, to be able to coach from a position of. Empathy, understanding, acknowledgement, and if you're not willing to get in there and like, help move something across or help drive forward, like, you know, our, our senior executive founders, owners, CEO, like they're still in the weeds too. [00:40:20] And I think it's amazing. I think you know, within reason and everyone has their spots that they care a little bit more about than others, and you have to know those things. But doesn't mean I don't trust those team members to go and run. It's just, um, as an executive, I don't feel I can make recommendations. [00:40:37] I can defend work, I can do my job unless I know what's, um, what's happening in the business. I need to have my, my finger on the pulse. And if I'm not in it, then. I won't. Yeah, I think there's a degree there, and you obviously have to watch that, but then also you're, you're on the line for the results. [00:40:57] You're on the line for it. So you have to make sure that [00:41:00] the, the output, the product is there. And there are some people who will learn quickly what's really important, what you're driving towards, what your goals are. And it certainly doesn't mean delegate and don't grow amazing leaders who are doing the same for their teams. [00:41:12] Right. I think it scales depending on the size of team you're in, in a team size where you're only one level, like operating one level down, that can, might. Feel a little bit tough if someone's having, if they're a new manager or having trouble letting go of the execution. But um, also how do you learn otherwise? [00:41:31] Phil: Right. [00:41:32] Jenna: that like the people often. Feel it's a critique on their own knowledge, but I think people forget to take it as an opportunity of learning someone learning from someone. And coworking depends on their style, obviously like coworking as partners on, on an output. And if it feels like that, then like, you know, I can reflect on some teams that have really felt like that, where like we're just working in lockstep and it's magic and it doesn't feel like one person is like micromanaging the other. [00:41:57] We're just like getting the best output because [00:42:00] we are. Meshing our brains and our different styles. And, um, my philosophy for hiring is to hire people that are better or smarter. I mean, everyone says that, but like, who have different sides of the brain who can push me, who I can learn from, and I hope they can learn from me in other ways. [00:42:13] And that's sort of what makes, I think magical teams. Um, I'm sure you can reflect on a few where that that's felt that way and the others where it hasn't because something is off balance. Um, and so I think if you have that plus the, you know, that special sauce, it, it can be really great. [00:42:30] Phil: That's such a good answer. Uh, I totally agree with you. I like, I love your point about empathy, uh, like on like. Being in the weeds a little bit or enough to like have that empathy for the folks that are doing the work and the execution. More. Like my favorite bosses were the ones that were still logging into the automation tools, the customer engagement tools and the dashboards. [00:42:52] And they had empathy for the stuff that I built, like when something was broken and I was doing like a quick screen share and showing them [00:43:00] how they fi, how we fixed it. It was like, oh wow. That's a lot of work like that, that empathy doesn't come if you don't like, take that step to, to log into those tools again, like they didn't underestimate the cost of adding just one more project or one more task when it came to like doing that quarterly planning and like, oh yeah, Phil's got way more bandwidth. [00:43:18] Like let, let's throw 'em these three other projects. Oh no, Phil has to like fix those three dashboards in Tableau. Like it was showing me like the amount of time that works like that, that empathy only comes when, when you're at least like somewhat close to the work. So yeah, [00:43:31] Jenna: I [00:43:31] think it gains respect in some, sometimes, like, not always, but you don't wanna always be like, you know, you're marking something up, you're checking something, you're just adding comments. Like sometimes it's nice to just like screen share and co-work on something to solve through it. You, maybe you, you know, you mark this up and then like, okay, let's, let's jam on this together. [00:43:47] How do we actually solve for this? What can we do? How can I help you? Like I, I, I want to. I always want people to feel that they can, uh, do that with me and not be intimidating. I get that it can be [00:44:00] intimidating to, you know, jump on with the, the, you know, VP of marketing or whatnot, but the, my goal is for it not to be, um, and to do that with enough people on the team where it feels like a value add, where it's like, great, I'm so happy I got to like jam together and we got to learn from each other and push this forward. [00:44:13] And I think that's the expectation of like the leadership around me, that they're all doing that. And so that's the culture, at least at, at work leap. So [00:44:21] it's pretty fun. [00:44:21] Phil: Yeah, I definitely see that as being a bit intimidating. Like there's been a lot of roles in my career where it was very performative based, and so like the idea of an exec hopping on a screen share with me and watching me do my work, like I, I, I would feel less like, oh, this is like a co-learning opportunity, and more of like, this person is checking to see if I know my stuff. [00:44:41] But I, I think that only comes with the culture, like you said, and like. I, I know you're a big fan of like figuring out where leadership is, helping folks develop, thinking not just the output in this performative culture. Um, and [00:44:56] 9. Why Critical Thinking Skills Drive Marketing Career Growth --- [00:44:56] Phil: you've emphasized that like career growth is less about knowing things, how many things, you know, how many things you can do, and more about learning how to think. [00:45:05] I think that's super cool and it reminds me of something, one of my earliest. CEO said in my career startup company, he said Knowledge expires faster than judgment. And I had a short teaching stint like five years ago, and I recently stumbled upon my marketing tag and automation slides, and I cringed so hard at like the lead scoring and nurturing and data content that I had on there, like marketing changes so fast. [00:45:28] You can't tie your value to what you know right now. How do you think leaders could adapt? To developing thinking in their teams rather than just like pushing for more execution all the time. Like give us some examples of things that we could try this week, maybe. [00:45:45] Jenna: Yeah. I mean. The people who we talked about earlier on, like, you know, the strongest high performers are the ones that are adaptable, the ones that understand the difference, like we've grown up in the marketing world. How many times have you adapted? How many times have you changed? Like, [00:46:00] you know, we, you have to kind of be a chameleon as marketing changes. [00:46:03] It's again, if you go to first principles at the core, it's like the how, the why, like what we're doing hasn't changed. But the tools, the roadmap like that has evolved. Um, it's like, I always say this, like, it's not the output, it's like the ingredients and the way you put them in and the order, like baking is, so, technical marketing is kind of like that. [00:46:25] Like you have only one set of ingredients and like maybe a few new ones get added here and there, but at the end of the day it's like the same, like, you know, how do we get to this person to do this thing and, and buy this thing and renew this thing? Like, it's very core there. So I think in terms of. Like leadership and growing leaders, it's pushing people, like people wanna stay in comfort. [00:46:43] It's our natural inclination to be like, I know how to do this. I'm gonna keep doing this. But I think recently, like on this team, like the folks who I've identified as really high performers, who I've been able to push. A little bit to say, Hey, like what about this? Like what about adding this to your portfolio? [00:46:58] Have you thought about doing this? Like, I [00:47:00] see their potential and pushing them that way. They've really stepped up like they're outstanding to see that like adaptability, the transferable skills are there like. They just need to learn and open up and know that it's safe to do that and that their, like their leader believes in that and getting also their team leaders to do that for them. [00:47:17] And hey, like, have you identified on anyone on your team like open to taking on more or is okay with this shift or this business is changing, like it is always changing. So who can we tap to help grow in that next level of change, that next stage. And. It can feel like a whiplash, it can feel like ping pong, but at the end of the day, like it's the kind of that everywhere like we just talked about. [00:47:37] So for me it's like spotting those patterns, those behaviors in folks that really are gonna be those high performers. Are you And as a leader, like, like you said, the knowledge expires fast and judgment, but the folks who have that good judgment to say, this is the right next move, or I'm gonna jump on this and I'm gonna come in and like. [00:47:52] Instead of just being the copywriter, I'm also gonna film this day at this event, and then I'm gonna create quick videos and I'm gonna turn 'em into YouTube spots. I'm gonna figure out how to [00:48:00] use the new tools for that. Like, that's like real examples of like people's roles changing into tangential, like areas that are expanding over the last couple years that I've seen. [00:48:08] Uh, that's one micro example, but like you have to just think about your folks and your team members as more like job descriptions are. General, like, you know, you, it's faster to help someone who's strong and smart, adapt than to hire someone new. So if you have those key players who are high performers, like what are you waiting for? [00:48:26] Don't, like, don't limit what people can do, uh, in my opinion. So give them the chance and if they're strong, they will. And if they're not, they'll opt out. You know, find someone else. But [00:48:35] Phil: Yeah. [00:48:36] No, I love it. [00:48:37] Uh. [00:48:38] Jenna: to help. [00:48:40] Phil: I love your point about judgment there. Like, uh, another thing that you said that was really interesting was this debate between like business judgment versus technical mastery. Um, like you said, there are great technical people and there's great business people, but there's very few who truly blend both of those things.[00:49:00] [00:49:00] And as the AI is. Getting crazier and, and things are, you know, changing all the time. Like it's tempting to optimize for technical mastery alone. A lot of folks on the podcast do default to that, uh, because we, we are a bit more technical in nature. When I ask them this question about like business versus technical, [00:49:17] 10. How to Build Business Judgment in Technical Marketing Roles --- [00:49:17] Phil: how do you think about the balance between business judgment and technical skills for folks on your team? [00:49:22] And for the folks that are like a bit more on the technical side that are listening right now, what advice do you have for them to become better at the business side? Curious your thoughts there. [00:49:31] Jenna: Okay. I'll start with the last part I guess is listen, is really listen to what people are asking of you, what people are asking in the rooms you're in. Say, you know, you're in a weekly sales call with reporting in that, like don't just present the report or throw it up or pass it onto lead. I mean, most people are probably doing this, but like what are people trying to figure out? [00:49:49] What are the patterns they're looking for and try and. Anticipate those things, and then if that's not getting you far enough, like really attach yourself to a counterpart to [00:50:00] somebody who can help you there. Like I, that's the only way I think you can't just like magically turn your brain on in one way that it's not trained to, or one way that you're like not as comfortable, like you can push yourself. [00:50:09] But really, like I find when a more technical person and a really strong like, uh, business person connect and really like. Cowork produce things together. That's where magic also really happens, right? They are pushing each other and they are enabling like the art of the possible together, and then they become, or you become like a linchpin for that organization, right? [00:50:33] Like if you are helping a leader or a business person or a sales person or whatever, uh, answer questions, predict. The future, you know, as much as possible. See patterns, guide, uh, strategy, direction, all those things, then you have become a linchpin and people are gonna start to come to you. So the technical know-how is critical, but it's not enough. [00:50:54] Like you said, you have to know how to guide it, and you can get so lost and all the requests from all the [00:51:00] people from across the org that you really need to have that. Um. You know, need to be able to discern what's critical, what the priority is, and not just listen, oh, this is the priority order. Like, question that right. [00:51:11] Question why the backlog is the way it is, and help push forward the most impactful, meaningful things. Um, and bring up if you're not sure, like, I think that that's something that I see teams sort of stumble on a little bit. It's like, oh, this was reprioritized here and this is the new order. And there isn't enough pushback on like why and what's most important across the org versus the loudest or squeakiest wheel or the person closest to them that's prioritizing that list, uh, versus the impact. [00:51:37] So I think it's optimizing for impact for the organization and thinking bigger. Um, and I think that's how someone will grow in general in leadership, in sales and marketing is. Not just your own priority list, not just your own work. Oh, this is so important. This is my list of two, but like what's important for the business and not just you and what's gonna have the biggest impact? [00:51:59] And that's [00:52:00] again, I think the difference between high performers. Um. And mid to low performers is being able to prioritize against the business goals and seeing a bigger picture. 'cause it's not about you, right? It's just not like at the end of the day, like, you know, a leader's job is to make it about you and help you grow, but your work is about the org. [00:52:17] And so that to me, I think is critical and, and spotting high performers and becoming that business technical linchpin. [00:52:25] Phil: One thing that, uh, like a trait that I've seen in a lot of those folks, like I've worked with a, a, a rare breed of, of folks that are both doing both of those things. And one of them is, is confidence. But confidence while. Accepting the fact that you don't know everything, like being, um, like having humility about it. [00:52:44] And I know that's something you were really big on also in your leadership style. Um, [00:52:47] 11. Why Confidence Without Humility is Dangerous --- [00:52:47] Phil: you actually said that I think you were like super skeptical of people that are super confident with their predictions about like the future of AI and, and buyers or platforms. And you also said that like operating with humility and. [00:53:00] The best information available today while assuming it is gonna change. Um, I feel like that's like the, the central theme of this episode here. Why, why do you think humility is such a critical leadership trait right now? And and what risks do you see when confidence is outpacing reality? [00:53:16] Jenna: Like I, I, I don't trust anyone who operates without the humility that goes along with the confidence that you need to operate, right? You need to have that, that courage. Courage, let's call it not even confidence. You need to have the courage to act, but the humility to know that you're probably wrong or that this is gonna change, and that I think those, those two combined lets you make bets move and not be stalled. [00:53:38] Like you really need that courage and that, you know, like that, that willingness to move. But you need to be. Humble enough to share all of the potential downfalls that are coming out, right. In terms of like, what's gonna, nobody knows. Nobody knows where the things are gonna go. We can do our best to predict, like there are futurists, right? [00:53:58] I don't know how they gr like how they [00:54:00] become that, but they're, they're magical, I guess. But like, there is a way, obviously they're brilliant and have, uh, much better intelligence than I do, but we don't often have those in our organizations, right? And so we can only operate with the info that we have. [00:54:13] The amount of reading that one can do in a 24 hour, 48 hour period, right? Like, I read so many different newsletters from different places, but how much information can you take on? And, uh, so we can operate only with those things. And so I think as a leader, my job is to say, I want you to move fast. I want you to do these things with a level of humility that you check to make sure you're not gonna make a massive mistake at the same time. [00:54:37] Right? Like, you need to know, you need to have a little bit of fear. Around failure so that you are like stopping yourself from moving in certain ways and, and catching yourself and double checking and crossing your i's crossing your T's and dotting your i's and doing all that. And so it's that like the scales have to balance a little bit to, um, to win. [00:54:58] I think founders [00:55:00] probably are a little bit higher on the like confidence side in for a good reason. Right. But I think, uh, operating within an org you need to have a little bit more balance to not. Um, make everything go crash and burn, right? Like there's different, like you can have a different level of each of those things and different roles in the business. [00:55:18] And, um, yeah, CFOs probably have a little bit more, you know, a little bit more of the checks and balances. Like it just, you need to have both so that you're, you're. [00:55:29] Phil: Yeah, totally agree. Love, love your answer there, [00:55:31] 12. How Revenue Leaders Prioritize Daily Energy --- [00:55:31] Phil: Jenna. Um, we, we have one question we ask everyone on the show. Um, you're a VP of marketing team leader. You're also top 100 women in Canada, or both Canadian. Love to having, uh. Double Canadians on the show. Outside of work, you're also a mother of three. As we were chatting about before recording, you also volunteer on a bunch of different boards. [00:55:52] Uh, one question we ask everyone is how do you decide what deserves your energy at any given moment, and what's your personal system for staying [00:56:00] aligned with what actually makes you happy? [00:56:03] Jenna: Ooh. It's definitely changed over the years. Uh, once I had kids, I think it was a slow realization of like, I can only get to so many things in the day. Um, and so I would say currently like. How do I operate on, on that is what is the most important? What are the most important things that need to happen and what can slip? [00:56:22] So sometimes that means my personal inbox will go unattended for quite some time. Sometimes that means like I used to be on top of all my emails, on top of all the responses, like pre, pre-kids Jenna, but post kids, Jenna, really like. Ruthless, not ruthless prioritization. I really do try and give back in terms of like time and, uh, mentoring and coaching folks that reach out and things like that. [00:56:41] But within reason, like I also am human and a mom of three and all those things. And so, um, it's, I'm tr I try to balance, like balance is the, you know, never happens. But I try and manage what's the most important, what are the most important things that need to happen for that day. And some things just stop. [00:56:58] Stop being as [00:57:00] important. Um, you know, I really enjoy the volunteer work that I do. Um, and I, that, that keeps me happy and motivated and, you know, getting out there in the world and not just living in my remote work and my, like, family life, you know, is fulfilling. But it's nice to, you know, uh, step out of the house for a little bit sometimes. [00:57:20] So for me that's like. Joy is, is seeing people and talking to people and interacting with people. That, for me, keeps me balanced and getting out, you know, and exercising, trying to fit that in, in there and, and eating, eating well and like keeping sort of that, but like family time. And I really love hosting. [00:57:36] I really love bringing people together and building community so. Um, that's been a theme over my career. You know, sometimes I'll get in a mood and a little bit of like, oh, I wish I was out there more, doing more. And then I have to remember that I, I do have three little kids under six. Um, and it's not all possible all the time at the same time. [00:57:57] And coming to terms with that, like, you know, happiness is this. [00:58:00] Illusion a little bit. Uh, I'm really content and I think being content with like what you have and being very grateful. This might, this maybe got more deep than you wanted, but like being very grateful and appreciating like health and like my kids and all the things around me like on a daily basis. [00:58:18] And reflecting on that, as cheesy as that sounds like, keeps me like. You know, okay, that's not, maybe not, those other things aren't as important or why are they, and like understanding that they are to me as well. [00:58:29] Phil: Mm-hmm. [00:58:30] Jenna: and really trying to like live in that joy or finding the joys, the little things like the cute opportunities I can be a part of right now and things like that when I can. [00:58:40] And, um. I'll say one other thing is living in walking distance from my kids' school when the weather is not minus 30, [00:58:49] is also like the little joy in every day of walking the kids to school is like such a great way to start the day. So I'm counting down the days until it's nice enough to do that. Um, but yeah, those are some of the things that keep me [00:59:00] happy and staying aligned and all that. [00:59:01] And I'm sure my answer will be different as the years go, but for now, that's what it is. [00:59:06] Phil: Yeah, that's really cool. Hack being walking distance to to school in in daycare. Yeah. Folks that are in the, in the US listening to hear you, you say minus 30, like what the heck? Minus 30 Fahrenheit. Minus 30 [00:59:18] Celsius. [00:59:19] We, uh, it's still super crazy. Um, but yeah, I, I love that answer, Jenna. The whole point is, is is going a little bit deep there, so, um, I love the, the self-reflection there. [00:59:30] Last question before I let you go. Um, [00:59:33] 13. Growing up --- [00:59:33] Phil: what's, what's a belief that you held strongly earlier in your career that you know now 15 years in, you look back and you're just like, young, ambitious. Jenna was a bit silly to think that. [00:59:46] Jenna: I was in a rush. I was in a big rush when I was, I don't know if it was a belief, but I was in a rush to like get there. Um, and I think, uh, I wish I'd had more mentors that would've said to me like, slow down, sit in this moment. I don't [01:00:00] know if I would've listened. Uh, but I certainly never heard that, really. [01:00:03] So, uh, looking back, I wished a few more people had said to me, Hey, like, your career is long, and you'll get there, and all those things. That being said, like I am who I am and I'm in a rush generally. So maybe that's just part of my DNA, but I think most people could benefit from. Like sit in it, don't be in a rush. [01:00:20] Uh, like have a strong sense of urgency, don't get me wrong, but that the career journey is long and that you will get, you'll go around in many different ways. So that finding that balance between those two things, don't be complacent, but also, um, you know, don't be in a rush necessarily. [01:00:41] Phil: Yeah. Very cool. Love a nice stroke of mindfulness in, in your answer there, like sitting in the moment instead of thinking of the next thing I have to do and [01:00:50] yeah, I have a hard time with [01:00:51] the [01:00:51] Jenna: that, so. [01:00:52] Phil: that Me too. [01:00:54] 14. Book rec --- [01:00:54] Phil: Uh, favorite book that you've read fiction nonfiction for, let you Go. [01:00:58] Jenna: Nonfiction, [01:01:00] um, it's really stuck with me. It's called Fallen Rise, the story like real life recounting of nine 11. It's an amazing, um, an amazing read. And then I'm a Harry Potter fan from the, on the fiction side will always be, you know, I read a lot of fiction now, but, um, I'll always be a potter head. Um, but that Fallen Rise book is, is amazing. [01:01:18] Um, it's always my number one recommendation for people. It's like, it's like watching, it's like reading a movie. Um, it was that gripping and, and heart, heart wrenching, obviously. [01:01:27] Phil: Very cool. All right, we'll, uh, share that out to folks. Jenna, thank you so much for your time today. This is super, super fun. Really [01:01:32] Jenna: It was awesome. Thanks. Thank you for having me, Phil.