[00:00:00] Maria: you know, when you're not paying for the product, chances are you might be one. So you are actually paying with your, attention. [00:00:07] Phil: let's talk about the, the ad tech landscape. [00:00:09] There's like the publisher side who own the attention. Those are like the tiktoks, the Spotifys, ~ all the apps that are like quote unquote free to users, but like they're, they're selling your attention.~ then we have the advertisers, the ones who are buying that attention~ buying demand are bringing demand.~ [00:00:16] ~Um, so those are like companies that are, are doing ads. Um, we're obviously marketing operations side, super familiar ~side, super familiar with the infrastructure that brings all this together. have like the apps, flyers. The Cloud flares, ~So those are like the three obvious players. But for folks that aren't super deep in ad tech, there's also platforms that are on both sides.~ [00:00:21] Maria: And, and we have the DSPs demand side, platforms and the supply side platforms and mediations who kind of bring the advertisers and the consumers together. [00:00:30] ~Uh, and within this system, uh. There's, uh, the biggest misunderstanding, from ~the marketing teams ~and the marketing executives that I, uh, that I see is, um, ~they tend to assume that ad tech is primarily a, data activation layer. So~ So basically the, the way~ to connect to the consumers,~ and that's one of the, one of the many channels that they try to do it in.~ [00:00:38] ~Uh, ~but when in reality we think of it as. Actual real time marketplace, ~with its own constraints, with its own incentives. ~so underestimating the role of the market dynamics, I think is a critical point where, ad tech and MarTech specialists have to actually come together on. [00:00:50] ​ [00:01:17] In This Episode --- [00:01:17] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Maria Solo Deva head of Business Development at Yang Go Ads and the subset we cover. Why Ad Tech is really a marketplace with its own economics and what role mobile ad mediation plays in the ad tech landscape will cover programmatic ad auctions and inventory dynamics, as well as building trust in programmatic advertising. [00:01:39] And we'll also touch on the future of contextual advertising. All that and a bunch more stuff after a quick word from two awesome partners. [00:01:46] ​ [00:03:50] Phil: Maria, thank you so much for your time today. [00:03:52] Really excited to chat. [00:03:53] Maria: I am really excited, Phil. Also a little bit nervous. This is my first time on a podcast. [00:03:58] Phil: Uh, I feel like you're a natural. We've [00:04:00] been chatting a little bit before we press record, so no point, uh, in being nervous. We're talking about your job and the company and your industry. So I feel like, um, you know, I'm really excited to take a bit of a different spin on MarTech and ad tech here. Like we're chatting with someone who is a business development expert. [00:04:18] We don't get a lot of those folks on the show, so maybe we can start by just setting the stage a little bit. [00:04:23] 1. Mobile Ad Mediation Business Development Explained --- [00:04:23] Phil: Business development at Yango Ads. I'm assuming the role blends a bunch of stuff like sales partnership, market research. What I find the most interesting about sales and biz dev is that you also need to be like a marketing and advertising technical fluency person, right? [00:04:39] Like you can't be selling an AI based programmatic ad mediation platform without knowing what the heck you're talking about. [00:04:46] So for people listening, maybe not live inside like Ad Tech every day, how do you describe your role? What does like a normal week actually look like for you? [00:04:53] Maria: Sure. Um, so whenever I speak to people who are way outside the industry of ad tech and MarTech, um, [00:05:00] who are interested in knowing what I do, uh, I normally ask them like. Hey, what apps do you use on an everyday basis? You know, uh, and some of them say, you know, Facebook, TikTok or some, maybe some tools that they use for, uh, just everyday use. [00:05:15] And then the follow up question is, you're not paying for those, are you? Uh, how come right and. So the natural answer is, you know, when you're not paying for the product, chances are you might be one. [00:05:26] Phil: Hmm. [00:05:27] Maria: So you are actually paying with your, uh, attention for these things. Uh, and the ads become a way for, uh, the platform developers or the app developers to monetize their products. [00:05:38] Um, my role within this, this, uh, frame is, uh. I actually make, uh, the supply side come together with the ad. So we, uh, my team and I attract, uh, publishers. Uh, those can be mobile app developers or game developers, mostly in the mobile sphere, uh, that, uh, will provide their. [00:06:00] Uh, their apps for our ads to be placed in. [00:06:03] And, uh, the solution that I work on is the mediation platform, which, uh, basically has different ad networks compete against each other for the biggest bid, uh, and the biggest, uh, bid wins the chance to have them pre, uh, an impression for each user of that app. Uh, so it's kind of like a holistic system and most. [00:06:19] People kind of get upset when when they say that I'm the person who put the ads there, and they're like, oh, you know, I'm kind of irritated with all the banners. And the follow up question is like, are you willing to pay the subscription or are you willing to pay the hard-earned do dollars for, for the use of that app? [00:06:35] And at that point, most people go like, oh no, I'm, I'm actually fine with ads, you know. [00:06:41] Phil: Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny like marketing and sales, like there's such a bad connotation to the profession that we do. Like, there is like a, a dirty aspect to like selling something and advertising. Like no one in theory like likes receiving ads, but it can be done really well and [00:07:00] I. There is a bad connotation to it because there are very bad actors in this space in the industry. [00:07:05] There's a lot of bad salespeople, a lot of bad marketers, so they give like a tainted name to a lot of folks in the profession. But I'm curious to ask you, like biz dev in your role, um, how is it different from like what the folks in the company and product are doing versus ops or partnerships? Like, can you break that down? [00:07:24] Like what does the, that look like day to day for you? [00:07:27] Maria: Definitely, um, Yango ads a is a, is a pretty big company. Um, and there's a lot of different services that are compiled in, in, uh, in a, like an ecosystem of sorts. So there's a lot of things that, uh, might, uh. Fellow team members do. That doesn't fall under my, my, my purview. So, for instance, uh, the relationships between the different ad networks within the mediation stack that we have falls under the, the scope of, uh, of a separate team. [00:07:54] Uh, and mostly product team deals with those. Uh, we have a separate team that, um, [00:08:00] you know, interacts with advertisers primarily. So all the campaigns are done, uh, are handled through a separate team completely. And my team actually, um. Solely focuses on bringing in the publishers or the mobile app, uh, developers, uh, gaming studios, uh, that will allow us to integrate the SDK of the mobile ads, uh, into their platforms. [00:08:22] So the, the, uh, I guess the unusual part of it, uh, for, for many, and something that I guess is also like a factoid, uh, that I like to throw out when I speak with people from outside the industry is that, you know, sometimes we speak about deals that are in the millions. So partnerships with app, uh, app developer, um, app developers that yield really, really good revenue. [00:08:46] And those sometimes are not at all enterprise deals. So those are not enterprise, um, um, uh, let's say developers, uh, enterprise level developers who earn that kind of money. And some, I've [00:09:00] personally seen people who have come through like. The favelas of Brazil, who developed an amazing game, who monetized it through ads, who became literal millionaires off of it. [00:09:11] Not, not very common, but sometimes it happens. And it's something that, uh, I think just makes me want to work more in this industry because it gives an opportunity to the people based off of their merit and their talent, which, which is, I, I find it really cool. [00:09:28] Phil: Very cool. So one thing you mentioned in that answer there is how, like the ecosystem is fragmented and how there's like multiple different players there. And I spent a bit of time ahead of chatting with you on like just researching the landscape a a little bit, but I, I did want to like. Touch on AI's role a little bit here before we dive into the landscape. [00:09:48] 'cause I find that, you know, a AI is rapidly transforming everything in like business and in our personal lives. Um, ad tech obviously like isn't immune to this. Uh, but [00:09:58] 2. AI Credibility In Ad Tech Sales --- [00:09:58] Phil: what I find interesting is that like you're not just selling ad tech, like when you're talking about Yango ads or an ad tech platform, you're also selling the AI capabilities that are. [00:10:07] Behind them and as like a marketer and a salesperson, you know, sometimes we feel this imposter syndrome of like talking about AI 'cause like we're not developers, we're not writing code for these like AI systems. Like who are we to be selling them? But like on top of selling ad tech tool and having that technical fluency in your role, you also need to be selling the AI stuff behind the scenes. [00:10:30] So as a BD expert, like how do you stay credible on AI topics with. Everything that's going on in this space right now. When you're talking about this with like partners and clients, do you find yourself needing to like educate marketers or potential like folks in the ICP on what AI can do, what AI can't do? [00:10:45] Just curious your thoughts there. [00:10:46] Maria: Definitely the, the thing is that we've had a lot of, um, we as consumers, I guess we've had a lot of misconceptions about what AI is. [00:10:54] Phil: Yeah. [00:10:54] Maria: and it feels like a black box of, or like some sort, sort of witchcraft sometimes, [00:11:00] which is in part true when you talk about the chatbots and the wide availability of those. [00:11:05] But the thing is that, um, artificial intelligence has been employed in many different aspects of, uh, the tech industries across the board and, um, uh. You know, to tell you the truth, uh, any machine learning algorithms fall under the, uh, definition of what AI is. And those machine learning a algorithms are actually what helps a lot of the decision making within a lot of processes in different, uh, companies, in different products. [00:11:31] And this role that I have right now with Yango Ads is not the first role, uh, where I've dealt with, uh, machine learning applications. Um, and I. I used to work for a different industry for brand protection and we had a lot of machine learning applications in there as well. So it's not my first rodeo and talking about ai, I've gone through, you know, international conferences, conferences, trying to educate the customers as well about the applications of AI and the credibility of it, and the fact that it [00:12:00] doesn't have to be a black box. [00:12:01] I wanna demystify the notion of AI and its applications because it does. Um. You, you, you know, you can build, uh, the transparency, uh, of where the artificial intelligence actually posed the information, how it was, uh, uh, how it learned, the patterns and how it can, uh, facilitate the work of an everyday. [00:12:22] Market marketer, let's say. Uh, I've been pretty adamant about also, um, coaching the team. 'cause I have a team of, of, uh, several business developers globally. Uh, we at Yango ads try to bring the level of everyone to the. A level playing field where everyone is confident in talking about precision recall, things like, you know, uh, gradient boosting and things like that. [00:12:47] And whenever there's, uh, a need to go even deeper, a layer deeper, of course we can always, uh, rely on the help of a data scientists on the team who can jump on a call with a client. Although those things tend to be rare in, in the census [00:13:00] because we're, uh, dealing with the practical, um, implications of AI in everyday life. [00:13:06] Phil: All right. I love your answer 'cause you're like reminding folks like, yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening with AI right now, especially with like generative AI tech, everyone using consumer products for it, but on the business side, especially B2B, like machine learning applications have been around for. Almost like, probably more than a decade, [00:13:23] right? Like 1950s early machine learning applications, letting machines learn something without actually programming them to learn something. And there's been business applications of that for, for a long time now. So we're waking up to the consumers, like being more aware of it. [00:13:40] But on the business side, like when would you say you first interacted with like. This idea of programmatic advertising. It's like when I started my career, like 12 ish years ago, 13 years ago, uh, we did a lot of paid ads at the startup that I was at, but it was all manual, right? Like Facebook ads was really big at the time, and we were manually creating one ad, deciding how much [00:14:00] we were bidding on it, running it for a certain amount of time, keeping an eye on CPAs. And now like every time I hear about ads, it's all programmatic. Like when did that switch kind of happen? And would you say that like. Programmatic, in its definition is kind of machine learning. [00:14:15] Maria: Uh, it definitely employs a lot of the techniques, and I think it has, has done that, uh, for, for a long time before AI became all the hype. Uh, but the thing about programmatic ads is that, um, it allows for, uh, ad for efficient ad monetization in instances where it wouldn't have otherwise been possible. So for, for example, when we talk about, um. [00:14:38] Uh, platforms like, uh, let's say TikTok or Facebook or, uh, even platforms like bank, bank apps for, for instance, those have a large enough audience to have direct sales of ads, and those have benefited off of them for, for ages. Uh. Um, a, a big, big example of that would be like a, a news app, right? Like a, [00:15:00] a news broadcasting app, uh, or a website that definitely has the audience, it has the credibility and they have historically sold ads directly to the advertisers, uh, which pretty much, you know, it was the par for the course. [00:15:16] Uh, and then the smaller app developers or the ones who. Mm, sequentially build game after game, and they need to monetize e each and every one of those. They just don't have the resources to sustain, uh, a system where there would be direct adver advertisers coming to them. Uh, and programmatic is a solution that. [00:15:37] Pretty much, uh, helps them integrate ads without the need to establish that direct relationship with the advertiser. Uh, so programmatic in its essence has been around for, for a while. Uh, I know Yango ads, uh, has been around only for about eight years. Uh, so we are, are relatively new in that sphere, but I think, uh, Yango. [00:15:56] Has taken its, uh, right rightful place [00:16:00] in, uh, the ecosystem and is, uh, right now developing fast to, uh, to become an even greater part of the, of the game. [00:16:08] Phil: So when you hear AI in Ad tech, like what are some examples of things that. Excite you, light you up, you think is gonna be really interesting, versus ones that you think are a bit overhyped and that you're, you're kinda like sick about hearing. [00:16:22] Maria: Mm-hmm. Sure. Uh, so a couple things stand out when we think about ai, uh, in ad tech. And I know there's a lot of, uh, you know, operational things that, uh, all the marketers pretty much know about the creative optimization, uh, and things like that. But I think one thing struck me, uh, in the Google Report about sustainability, and it's the fact that, uh, AI actually helped, uh. [00:16:45] Uh, conserve the energy, uh, when computing power, uh, when making, uh, decisions within these auctions. And we are talking about trillions of auction bids per day. Uh, and that number is 10, you know, is, is supposed to [00:17:00] increase even still. So, uh, we do need to rely on a more sustainable source of, uh, decision making in these regards. [00:17:07] Uh, and that. Is really promising to me as it's promising application of AI in the future in ad tech. And the second thing is that, um. Well, I come from, uh, the industry that dealt with brand protection. Uh, and, uh, those things that, you know, have trust and safety in them, or brand safety, uh, really strike a chord with me always. [00:17:29] So the AI applications in those instances also excite me a lot because, uh, as the ad creatives grow and the a the bad actors obviously also grow in this ever-changing, uh, field. Uh, we. Simply would not be able to govern the mar the, the Internet, uh, without efficient tools like artificial intelligence that can be employed efficiently and correctly, uh, in those instances. [00:17:55] Phil: Very cool. So let you kinda tease this out a little bit, but let, let's talk about the, the ad [00:18:00] tech landscape. Like I said, in leading up to this interview, I did a ton of research and like I'm super familiar with. The, I dunno if you know Scott Brinker, we had him on a show and he's like the known for the MarTech super graphics, like the, all those landscape charts. [00:18:14] I dunno if there's one for, for ad tech that, that probably should have been part of my research. I, I'm sure someone's kicked the tires on that. Um, but like, even though you said firmly and ad tech, a lot of what you're working on upstream is impacting. The marketing teams, specifically the MarTech teams, when you think of the downstream things like attribution, quality, audience signal measurement, trust, like budgets, how budgets get justified also. Um, and so like I said, I'm super service level when it comes to like the landscape of ad tech. And [00:18:42] 3. Why Adtech is Really a Marketplace With Its Own Economics --- [00:18:42] Phil: maybe you can help me, um, can I get a lay of the land here a little bit, but I wanna sanity check my mental model after like the, the little research that I did. Uh, maybe you can fill in some of the gaps. So. I tend to think of, uh, there's like two main players, right? Like you talked about them already. There's like the publisher side who own the attention. Those are like the tiktoks, the Spotifys, all the apps that are like quote unquote free to users, but like they're, they're selling your attention. And then we have the advertisers, the ones who are buying that attention buying demand are bringing demand. [00:19:12] Um, so those are like companies that are, are doing ads. Um, we're obviously marketing operations side, super familiar with the infrastructure that brings all this together. So we have like the apps, flyers. The Cloud flares, the AWSs. So those are like the three obvious players. But for folks that aren't super deep in ad tech, there's also platforms that are on both sides. [00:19:33] So like there's the demand side, platforms that are selling, folks that are selling, and then there's folks that are hell or. Platforms that are helping folks on the demand side. Um, I know Yango has like a lot of tools around the middle of that, so like the mediation solution and decides like who wins each expression. [00:19:50] What am I missing? Is that like a fair assessment? I'm curious your thoughts there. [00:19:54] Maria: It's, it's an actually, it's actually a very solid, solid mental model, uh, especially at systems [00:20:00] level. Um, and I think you're, you're very familiar with, uh, the, uh, the whole landscape. Uh, based off what, what I'm hearing, uh, I think the, uh, so when we come to think of, uh, the major players within the industry, obviously we have the publishers who own the attention. [00:20:17] Uh, of, uh, of the public, uh, the advertisers who bring in the budgets. Uh, we have the infrastructure, uh, including the, uh, the measurement partners that actually, um, uh, quantify, uh, each step of the process. And, and we have the DSPs demand side, uh, platforms and the supply side platforms and mediations who kind of bring the, uh, the advertisers and the consumers together. [00:20:43] Uh, and within this system, uh. There's, uh, let's say the biggest misunderstanding, uh, from the marketing teams and the marketing executives that I, uh, that I see is, um, they tend to assume that ad tech is primarily a, [00:21:00] uh, data activation layer. So basically the, the way to connect to the consumers, and that's one of the, one of the many channels that they try to do it in. [00:21:09] Uh, but when in reality we think of it as. Actual real time marketplace, uh, with its own economics, with its own constraints, with its own incentives. Uh, so underestimating the role of the market dynamics, I think is a critical PO point where, um, ad tech and MarTech specialists have to actually come together on. [00:21:28] Uh, there's a lot of, in, uh, there's a lot of, uh, external influences that, uh, will dramatically change the market la, uh, landscape whenever, uh, whenever that happens. Uh, for, for example, um. Uh, advertisers, uh, uh, a couple years ago pulled a lot of, uh, the resources off of the, um, online platforms onto more offline, uh, um, activations. [00:21:56] So the ad tech portion of [00:22:00] their budgets got decreased and thus, uh, the publishers on their side, uh, saw, uh, a dramatic drop in some of the earnings that they. Had hoped would be much greater. So now these things have to, you know, uh, come to an understand, we have to come to an understanding of these things, uh, when thinking about, uh, a large industry like such. [00:22:22] Uh, and then the second misconception that I also think of is, um, some people assume that there is more, that the, the control over this system is more centralized than it is. And I've, I, I've seen it through, through my, my conversations with the publishers as well through. My, uh, chats with the mobile app developers, for example. [00:22:42] Uh, the market is very fragmented and within the different, uh, categories that we just outlined, you and I, uh, there's much more depth, uh, and much, um, like much greater detail for each of those. Uh, and there's a lot of, uh, different [00:23:00] incentives that each, uh, participant in the market takes, uh, for their own, uh, and there's not. [00:23:06] Much that we can, uh, there, there's not a single lever that we can pull to change that. Uh, so, uh, when, um, publishers think of, uh, the trends, uh, in the upcoming or in this year, in 2026, uh, they have to think of, uh, the greater ski, the greater, uh, let's. Uh, greater vision of how the market is behaving, uh, where the marketing dollars are coming from and what they're being spent on. [00:23:33] And sometimes things, uh, like that cannot be influenced, uh, by any participant of the food chain. [00:23:40] Phil: Do you think that the fragmentation that you deal with changes your approach to partnership deals? Like what, what does that look like when you think of, you know, all the players that we just laid out, and then multiple, like, you'd almost have like a landscape within every single one of those players. [00:23:55] Like how do you prioritize opportunities when there's like hundreds of potential [00:24:00] collaborators in the like, crazy value chain of, of ad tech? Like, curious your thoughts there. [00:24:05] Maria: Uh, here we're trying always to think of, uh, the ecosystem. So how is the partnership going to be beneficial for the whole, uh, and not just one product And especially for teams like mine who, um, participate in a very specific application of, uh, the ad tech in, you know, bringing in the, the publishers who will. [00:24:26] Then show the ads on their, on their apps. Uh, we tend to think of each partnership and evaluate them from the standpoint of the ecosystem. So will the other applications of other products for yengo be applicable in this instance? Will this partnership grow into something more of a strategy strategic, um. [00:24:45] Uh, partnership across time. Uh, and I think that goes for all the different partnerships across the board for us. Uh, the sometimes the strategy behind it, uh, is more valuable than the immediate yield in the revenue. [00:25:00] And, uh, we've had those strategic partnerships, uh, placed, uh, way before that, you know, then yielded a, a much greater, uh, outcome, uh, in the networking in the. [00:25:11] You know, just placing Django ads on a separate, uh, separate pedestal within the, the complete game. So things like that, uh, will definitely, they, they come to, into consideration, but, um, also we, we can't not think of the, the revenue that makes it as. Sustainable. Uh, so the financial, uh, financial component of it always, it gets taken into consideration and the product market fit, I think is a big portion of it. [00:25:37] So, uh, whenever we come up with a new product or a new feature, I believe it's of utmost importance to value, to, to measure it, uh, against, uh, what the market is actually requiring currently. And if there is a product market fit immediately to make the, uh, return on investment pretty visible for all the stakeholders. [00:25:57] ​ [00:27:35] Phil: So when you think about like, where Yang fits in this like crazy value chain that's, that's really fragmented. Like when I'm looking at Yang's website on the outside, it looks like Yang ad spans way more than just mediation. Um, like when I was asking GPT or Perplexity, like, oh yeah, Yango ads is. Just mediation. [00:27:55] But then you look at the site and you have like a bunch of different things in there, like you're helping [00:28:00] publishers monetize inventory. You're also operating an ad network almost, [00:28:04] it looks like, and you're working directly with campaigns and on the DSB side also. So you're kinda like touching a lot of different players in that ecosystem. [00:28:12] How do you think about where YANG Ads sits in the stack or in that ecosystem today? And which part of the role is more central to, to your work you think? [00:28:21] Maria: Uh, Phil, you're absolutely right. I mean, Yango Ads has been around maybe less than a, a few key players, gigantic behemoths of the industry, but, uh, but it has firmly, firmly taken its place as, uh, as a big player, uh, Yango Ads has both the own ad network, uh, as well as, uh, the user acquisition tools, the MMP. [00:28:42] So there's a, uh, there's a measurement platform that, uh, can help. Structure all this data and uh, obviously the mediation behind it, uh, which I personally am involved in. Uh, and I think the, uh, ambition of Yango Ads has always been to become a global [00:29:00] player of, uh, the, in, in the ad tech sphere with, um, transparency and, uh, actual product value. [00:29:08] Uh, at the forefront of every action. And, uh, you can't think of that without becoming an ecosystem. Uh, so if you think of, uh, let's say, uh, Google, uh, or, uh, app loving, uh, they have always, uh, you know, made meaningful strides in that regard, uh, to be, become a holistic. Uh, ecosystem and a one, one-stop shop, if you will, uh, for, for as many, um, ad tech needs as possible. [00:29:34] Uh, so we're, I think, moving steadily in that, in that, uh, realm as well, uh, with a few caveats that obviously you have to, uh, think of. Uh, your, uh, differentiators when you're, uh, trying to, you know, win against, uh, the ones that have been around for longer and that have significant significantly more resources than you. [00:29:56] Uh, and for us it's been always, um, uh, [00:30:00] transparency and trust that we build, uh, with our partners, uh, from the get go. Uh, and I think it, it feeds into. Uh, some of the requests and some of the, uh, literal outcry that we've heard from, from, uh, publishers who demand more transparency, who demand more, uh, accountability from their partners in ad tech. [00:30:21] Uh, which I think we're, we're, uh, uh, you know, we're, we're lucky. Lucky to be able to provide. [00:30:28] Phil: Super cool. Yeah. Uh, I wanted to ask you like, [00:30:30] 4. Programmatic Ad Auctions And Inventory Dynamics --- [00:30:30] Phil: what do you think is one thing that you wish. MarTech teams or marketing teams understood better about how things like ad inventory and auctions and the whole like space of mediation that you're like closely tied into actually work. Like what, what do you think folks should understand better? [00:30:49] Maria: I think MarTech teams should understand better that, uh. Ad inventory isn't a static commodity. It's a live, constantly moving market where every impression [00:31:00] is an auction. Uh, even if it seems like you're just buying ad space at, for, for programmatic, it isn't, uh, it, there's thousands of decisions made in milliseconds for that ad to, to appear to an end consumer. [00:31:14] And price and placements aren't fixed, so it's always an auction. And the, the highest, uh, the biggest, the highest bid wins. Um, so there's a lot of. Competition, demand and con contextual signals, uh, that have to, uh, come into play. Uh, the second point is that supplied is limited and dynamic. Uh, so, uh, high quality impressions are scars and, uh, highly contested. [00:31:40] So you have to understand that from the get go, uh, campaigns can look. Perfect on paper, but then in reality, they may perform, uh, less than ideally because of the way that the market moves, uh, and context and timing matters just as much as data. So, uh, the most accurate audience data [00:32:00] sometimes cannot overcome poor timing or a crowded auction. [00:32:04] Uh, all those things. Um, it's basically like a, like a marketplace of its own, uh, that you have to always account for. And, uh, sometimes, uh, the results can be unpredictable. [00:32:17] Phil: Yeah, definitely see a lot of unpredictability there. Like I was trying to figure out questions for you where we could make the link between MarTech and and Ad Tech. Um. Like, you'll get a bunch of different opinions from folks. Like when I ask folks like, what is Ad Tech versus MarTech? And if they're super deep in Ad Tech, they'll be like, ad Tech is completely different. [00:32:37] Like it's a different world. And, but if you ask folk in MarTech, like they'll just be like, well, advertising is just a category of marketing and MarTech is all of marketing, tech, and advertising is just like one umbrella under MarTech. Um, but I, I feel like. From your head shaking there, you're, you're more on the other side of the coin, but where do you see MarTech teams like feeling the consequences of ad tech [00:33:00] decisions? [00:33:00] Like even though a lot of MarTech folks aren't directly involved, sometimes, especially in bigger companies, like it is separate MarTech versus ad tech, like the demand gen team is gonna be its own thing, but it's still kind of under the marketing umbrella. Like where do you see marketing teams feeling that consequence of ad tech decisions, even if they're not directly involved, like is it. Things that like, obviously data is a big one. Like metrics. Is it more privacy and experience, like curious, your thoughts there, Maria? [00:33:29] Maria: I think all of what you mentioned, uh, is very relevant and I think, uh, um, a lot of what marketing, uh, teams end up doing is, uh, having to stitch together and patch things up, uh, with the results that they end up having through the ad tech actions, uh, and, and then building it into more of a solid, uh, you know, uh, understandable and digestible format. [00:33:52] For the other stakeholders to grasp. Uh, so a lot of it has to do with data, and a lot of it has to do with just the different, uh, data points [00:34:00] that, uh, each, uh, participant of, of the, of the food chain, let's say, uh, takes into prioritization. So, uh, there's, um, I think with the privacy and the um, uh. The limitations that, uh, some of the governing bodies put in place that, uh, process has been disrupted yet again. [00:34:24] Uh, so the, you know, the, uh, first party DA data avail availability and things like that. So, uh, I think a lot of marketing tech teams are still, um, trying to wrap their head heads around it. And, um, although they are adapted. Adapting fast. But I think that's one of the ways also to, uh, for, for partnerships and for more understanding that that has to be created between the two. [00:34:50] Phil: Yeah, the whole transparency angle in, in ad tech and, and marketing, just like as a, a general category is, is interesting because like we, we talk a lot [00:35:00] about like. Black boxes when it comes to ad tech, especially with like AI tech. AI is, is a lot of a black box, but so is ad tech like transparency has long been Ad tech's, one of ad tech's most debated issues. [00:35:13] There's a lot of systems that still operate as. Black boxes, they're really opaque. They don't really let people see how the decisions are made. And a lot of folks, um, like [00:35:22] 5. Building Trust in Programmatic Advertising Transparency --- [00:35:22] Phil: there's this like landmark study that kept coming up in a lot of my research by PWC. Um, I think it was in like 2020 that's found like 51% of. Programmatic spend reaches publishers, like only 51% of the dollars you spend actually reaches people you care about. 15% of it vanishes into like unknown delta. Like obviously this like fuels distrust amongst people, um, like developers and advertisers. I'm curious to ask you, like, how do you build trust knowing that like a lot of this criticism and this like mistrust is, is, is out there with clients? [00:35:58] Like how do you, um, like [00:36:00] talk to someone who's like been burned by. Like this walled garden or black box platforms before, like do you, do you approach those relationships differently? Um, you know, like offering trial periods or like third party verification? Like how do you overcome that skepticism? [00:36:14] Maria: Definitely. Yeah, definitely Phil. It's, it's been, uh, part and parcel of dealing with, uh, ad tech in general and AI applications in, uh, ad tech as well. Um, I think a lot of it comes down to opening the black box to the extent that's possible. Uh, so we try to be as transparent as possible as to, uh. What the partner will be getting and for, for example, we have invested significant resources at Yango Ads to have our own partner interface where all the data is transparently laid out. [00:36:45] We've gone to the extent to which we actually pull our partner data. Uh, off of their, uh, platforms seamlessly into ours. For example, if, uh, we're talking about a mediation platform with, uh, [00:37:00] different ad networks that compete against each other, we actually pull the data off of those ad networks directly and crosscheck it against our own data so that the, uh, the recipient actually would, uh, be more. [00:37:12] Um, confident in the results. Uh, we always prioritize communication, uh, with publishers, uh, so that there's always a person that they can actually physically reach out to. You know, there's, it's, it's not a inbox at. Yengo ads. It's, uh, an actual physical person, uh, who communicates with you about, uh, the results of the, the, the, the performance of the campaigns, the performance of the app in terms of, um, earning re, uh, revenue through ads, uh, different, um, upticks or uh, downfalls. [00:37:45] Things like that. Uh, an open and clear communication is key, I think in building trust. Uh, especially in cases like you, you mentioned where clients sometimes have been burnt. Uh, we demonstrate the results with accountability. Uh, so [00:38:00] sometimes we can go as far as to. Um, build out a projection of what, uh, a specific partner would be earning with us through app monetization. [00:38:10] Uh, and, uh, they can pretty much rely on those results, uh, for the foreseeable future when it's all all laid out in front of them because we know, uh, the math that went. Behind it. And so we can kind of, uh, pretty much, uh, guarantee it. Uh, and we, uh, prioritize personalized partnerships. I think, uh, part of it is covered by the constant communication that I mentioned, but also we try to see, uh, our partners face to face whenever we're, uh, globally tr traveling for conferences or, uh, sometimes roadshows, uh, where we're visiting the, the clients in our, in their offices, uh, the teams that work with the ad networks. [00:38:49] Um, which is a separate team from mine, but they, I see them constantly, uh, doing the same with the partnerships that they have with the ad networks. Uh, where at Yango Ads has a really solid [00:39:00] relationship with the biggest players on the market in different regions across the globe because we are striving to build this holistic kind of global. [00:39:07] Ecosystem, uh, for ad tech. And then, uh, you mentioned something that we also definitely employ is, uh, that's, that, that's like a tactical tool, let's say, that we can employ is, um, offering trial periods. Uh, it depends on the, sometimes on the, the, the level of partnership that we're discussing or the kind of application of a product of Y go ads. [00:39:29] But, uh, we do, um, entertain always, uh, trial periods where, uh, the visibility and, um. Uh, just the outcomes of the partnerships are so clear that then, uh, there's no stone unturned, let's say, for, for the partner to move forward with us. [00:39:45] Phil: love your answer. It it, it's not surprising that, like a business development person says that one way to counter trust is to make humans talk to other [00:39:53] humans and like build that, that internal rapport. And I, I think that that answer is, is really solid and it's [00:40:00] easy for us to forget that on the MarTech side and that tech side, when, you know, we're working in the tools day to day, at the end of the day, it's still like people. Buying those tools and it's people building those tools and working on making them better. Um, so it's, it's easy to forget, but, um, one of my sponsors on the show Revenue Hero, like I was just like helping them build, uh, different ads. And one thing that comes up with, uh, like their customers consistently is not just the product, but it's like. [00:40:26] Their support team is just like always on top of things. Like, like you said, it's not like inbox@revenuehero.com. It's like an actual team of people. They have like Slack connect with people and they can like super quickly respond. So yeah, it's just like a, a cool call back to the humans and like the, the namesake of. The podcast there. Um, maybe like my pipe dream in this whole, like, trust industry and, and maybe this is like naive a little bit for me, but I had a, a stint where I went really deep in like Web3 and blockchain, like, but before AI took up all of my curiosities. But, um, there's like really [00:41:00] cool like industry standards and like tech, like blockchain where there's like regulations and I would love to see that in like ad tech or MarTech. Um, what do you think about that? Like in the future or in a couple of years where. Like every tool in ad tech or AI tech gives you like a visible audit trail of how a decision was made. And like when you see a dollar spent, like you can click on it and you get the full audit trail of like why this one didn't count, why that one did count. [00:41:29] Or in the AI tool, when it decides to like serve that ad up to that person, you can see why by clicking on them, seeing what they did before, like is that a pipe dream? Like what do you think about that? [00:41:39] Maria: It does sound a little bit, you know, kind of cookie cutter let's say, or, or let's say idealistic. But I would love to see that, you know, I would actually personally love to see that, uh, implemented in the real world. Although, uh, I do see, see it as a, um, some parts of it may be unlikely just because of the, um, of the [00:42:00] fact that. [00:42:01] A part of the game is, is uh, uh, that opacity behind it. Uh, so the transparency of the level that you're des describing may be, um, disruptive or, uh, let's say unsustainable for some of the players within the food chain. Uh, but I think greater level. Uh, or granularity into, uh, or visibility into what is happening to your marketing dollars or where is your, uh, revenue coming from? [00:42:30] If you're talking from a publisher standpoint, uh, I think that is achievable. Definitely. There's definitely, um, uh, first of all, there's standardization of data, uh, that there are those. Like, uh, separate groups, uh, of, uh, specialists that advocate for that. And that way, uh, we can compare apples to apples and it becomes more of a, uh, a fair game. [00:42:53] Uh, and on the other hand, there's, uh, governmental bodies and, uh, the, uh, the, uh, legislations [00:43:00] that require compliance with, uh, certain, uh, politics, uh, and policies, uh, that also yield this new, uh, you know, gameplay, which, uh. Uh, becomes more transparent on its own and it's kind of like, uh, it's a given. I think that's, that tendency is gonna grow even still. [00:43:20] Phil: Yeah. Yeah, definitely agree. Definitely a bit more of a, a pipe dream than, than reality. Um, I wanted to ask you one question 'cause like, when, when we were figuring out topics before this, um, you had one really interesting idea about, um, a. A prediction that was kind of against like a lot of conventional, uh, wisdom that we see out there when we talk about ad tech. [00:43:39] Like [00:43:39] 6. The Future of Contextual Advertising --- [00:43:39] Phil: there's this dominant assumption that right now, uh, stricter privacy rules and signal loss and user fatigue are all kind of trending towards less advertising in the future. A lot of folks are like predicting that it's gonna be less ads. People are like tired of it. There's less of a, more of a concern on privacy and stuff like that've. Argued the opposite, that we're actually heading towards more advertising, just better integrated and way more contextual than a lot of folks are doing today. Why? What do you think most people are getting wrong about like where MarTech and AI and advertising is actually heading? Like what do you have that belief? [00:44:16] Maria: Uh, I think a lot of the people that you're, you're saying, uh, you're quoting are right in that regard in the regard of, um. Uh, the fact that the fat fatigue from ads is going to grow for, for a considerable period of time still, uh, the fact that that is, is that the, um, the demand for ads will not decrease, uh, because the products and the services keep popping up. [00:44:37] And so the, the actual need for them to be, uh, demonstrated to the public will still be, uh, prevalent. Uh, but the thing is that. Um, I believe that with the new technology and with the applications of artificial intelligence, uh, the, um, the ads will be more personalized, but not, not in a, not in a creepy way that uses your data, [00:45:00] but more, more of a, um, relying on the first party data and also being, um, more relevant to each person so that they would be, uh, willingly, you know, consuming the. [00:45:10] Those ads actually benefiting from them. Uh, I believe that one way or the other, the equilibrium will be there just because the decrease of, uh, advertising demand is not something that is fathomable to me at this point. [00:45:26] Phil: I love it. Love, love your perspective there. Um, [00:45:29] actually like I'm, I'm really into sci-fi books and uh, I was just reading one, um, that talks about this future where people are. Like opting into very like hyper personalized ads and on their devices they're answering a bunch of questions and, uh, they like opt into letting the device like be connected to other things that's going on in our lives. [00:45:52] So like publishers know, uh, on the demand side, they know like if this person is going through like something specific in [00:46:00] their lives. Like if they just like signed up to play for soccer or like they just signed up their daughter to like do swimming lessons. Like all of that information, you're like willingly giving away, but in exchange you're getting like contextual ads and instead of getting an ad for like women's running shoes and I'm just like, I don't run and I'm not a woman. [00:46:19] Like I get an ad about new swimming lessons locally in my area that like my daughter might like. And so like you're giving away some of the privacy in exchange for getting. Way more contextual. Like, and like you end up saving time 'cause you're not researching on stuff. [00:46:35] But, um, yeah, like I, I, I, I like that angle. [00:46:38] Maybe it's a bit too farfetched there, like giving up too much privacy. But [00:46:42] um, yeah, the contextual [00:46:44] Maria: always. Yeah. [00:46:46] Phil: Yeah, exactly. [00:46:47] 7. Buy-in Tip --- [00:46:47] Phil: Um, I like asking Maria this question towards the end of the interview, um, about like buy-in. So like you, you work in ad tech, like Yengo sometimes has like really big deal sizes sometimes, like they're a bit smaller, but like when you're coming up with new ideas that work or when you're working with prospects and trying to like help them get buy-in for Yango ads, like what's your best tip for getting internal buy-in on your crazy mark tech or, or ad tech ideas. [00:47:15] Maria: I don't think I'll be, you know, super like creative here or discover the Americas here. But, uh, this is, uh, something that I try to do always and whenever I'm negotiating, uh, something and that's, uh, I'm trying to think from the perspective of the person who's buy-in. I'm trying to get, uh, and pitch, uh, the idea. [00:47:35] In the way that would benefit them most. So trying to find the answer to the question, how is this, uh, the, the employment of this idea, uh, be beneficial to you? And the answer to that question normally leads to the pros to, to the, to the prospect or the, the decision maker to say, Hey, I'm actually interested. [00:47:54] You know, let's talk more. [00:47:56] Phil: Very cool. I, I name drop like some some sci-fi books [00:48:00] that I read there, but I also, uh, love asking folks. Um, [00:48:03] 8. Books Recommendations --- [00:48:03] Phil: what's like your favorite nonfiction book that you've read or also your, like your favorite fiction book. Um, what are your thoughts there? [00:48:10] Maria: So for nonfiction, also not gonna be super creative for all the sales folks out there. I think it's the Bible, uh, Gavin Kennedy's, everything is negotiable. Love that. Um. Back in the day when I first read it, I was a very young, uh, ambitious lady and, uh, I think it really changed my way of thinking, not even within the, like the framework of, uh, sales, uh, but like in general how to approach life and how to approach conversations with everyday people, which is, uh, a major shift in my personality. [00:48:41] And, uh, for, for fiction? Uh, for fiction, uh, it has been. So I'm a, I'm a Spanish minor. Uh, so my, uh, favorite author have been from Latin America. And, uh, Julio Cortas Hopscotch has really, really like, it's, it's been on top of my, uh, list, [00:49:00] uh, for favorite books, just because of the way that you can read it over and over again in different, um. [00:49:05] Uh, segments, uh, just like the author intended, and always get like a sep separate new layer to, uh, the narrative, which is really cool. [00:49:14] Phil: Very cool. I'll, uh, I'll check that out. Like I, I add every book, uh, that our guests, uh, give me in, in answers here, like I added to my good read shelf there. I'm really big into books right now. I have a, a two month old at home [00:49:27] and I. Yeah, thanks. I, I don't do a lot of like physical reading, but I'm like, oftentimes just [00:49:34] like giving him the bottle or Yeah. [00:49:37] Audio books in the ear. So, um, yeah, I got a lot of, uh, things on my, on my to-do list to read, but, um, it. Couple, couple last questions for you, Maria. This has been super fun. Um, [00:49:47] 9. Naive --- [00:49:47] Phil: you mentioned like earlier in your career, like when you were younger, more naive and like super ambitious. Um, like what's a belief that you held strongly in, in those like earlier days in, in your career that you don't have anymore? [00:50:02] Maria: Ooh, that's a, that's a good one. Um, I think earlier, early on I believed that if you have a good enough product that you have, if you have like a really solid. Tech stack, uh, or like a great vision, that's enough for you to be successful as a product, uh, on the market. Uh, and, uh, obviously the sales for those would be an easy peasy deal. [00:50:25] Uh, I was very wrong. I, I learned, I learned my lesson the hard way. Uh, now I know that there's a lot of, uh, things that are at play and the relationships and, uh, the actual execution are crucial points of it. And I, I see it as an opportunity really, because sometimes you can't. Really influence, uh, the innovation of the product on your own. [00:50:46] Uh, but what you can do is work within your, your realm and, uh, build solid relationships, but build trust with the clients. Be transparent, uh, and execute to the utmost of your abilities, which a lot of [00:51:00] the times makes, you know, does the trick and, um, makes you more successful than the the, the rest. [00:51:06] Phil: I love it. [00:51:07] 10. Happiness System --- [00:51:07] Phil: Maria, you're a biz dev leader, obviously a frequent speaker. You lead a global team of folks. Uh, you're also a dog co-owner in a theater aficionado, I discovered. Uh, one question we ask everyone on the show is how do you decide what deserves your energy at any given moment, and what's your personal system for staying aligned with what actually makes you happy? [00:51:28] Maria: Oh, such a lovely question. Uh, so you mentioned I have a dog now, uh, as of last year, and, uh, to be honest with you, this, this is my first pet ever in my life. Uh, I didn't use to be much of a dog person or, or a cat person for that matter, but this one just really. You know, I, I fell in love with a little creature and, uh, I, I think being, being happy, uh, for me, uh, I learned to be happy by observing her. [00:51:58] Uh, and, uh, whenever I, you [00:52:00] know, try to answer the question like you posed, like, does it make me happy? I think of like, okay, does it make me go like her, like her, you know, does it make me wag my tail? Does it make me like, want more? You know? And, and, um, it's, it's a very nice, um. You know, reset, uh, after a long day's work to be able to just share a moment with, uh, with a dog, with, uh, with your, the person that you love. [00:52:24] I think that sets things in perspective. [00:52:27] Phil: What kind of dog is it? [00:52:28] Maria: It's a sheti, Shetland, uh, Shetland, uh, uh, sheepdog. [00:52:33] Phil: That's super cute. Yeah. One of my, uh, close neighbors has, uh, same, same type of dog. We see it outside all the time. I have a bigger, uh, Bernice Mountain dog mixed with like a, a poodle, so like [00:52:44] Maria: Oh, cute. [00:52:46] Phil: Uh, she's like eight years old now, like is a bit more grumpy and she like hates that neighbor's dog. [00:52:51] Like they don't get along at all. [00:52:54] Maria: Yeah. That, that happens sometimes too. So you, you learn about happiness and anger sometimes from them. [00:52:58] Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:59] Phil: [00:53:00] boundaries. Love it. Maria, this has been super fun. Really appreciate you, you coming on and, and humoring the marketing ops MarTech folks, uh, with a bit of ad tech wisdom there. Um, love what you're building and really appreciate your time and, uh, and spending that with us today. I [00:53:13] Maria: Thanks a lot, Phil. It's been great. Really appreciate the questions and your insights. Uh, it's been amazing. Thanks. [00:53:19] Phil: awesome.