00:00:04:00 - 00:00:34:17 Justin Nabity This is the DocNation podcast. We are a movement founded by doctors for doctors dedicated to empowering medical professional to reclaim control over health care decisions and advocating for their fair share of the industry's resources. Please note the views expressed are those of DocNation and not necessarily those of our Guest or Reference Health centers. Well, today we're talking with Doctor Winslow Murdoch, a family physician who's been at the front lines of medicine for over 35 years. 00:00:34:19 - 00:00:58:01 Justin Nabity He started as a solo practitioner. Built a thriving multi physician practice and then made the jump to direct primary care. Long before it was a movement that it is today beyond patient care. Doctor Murdoch has been a relentless advocate for physicians, serving a long time delegate as a delegate with the Pennsylvania medical society and pushing for real change in health care policy. 00:00:58:03 - 00:01:21:22 Justin Nabity He's also been at the forefront of medical innovation, mentoring doctors at point of care, ultrasound, and even using AI to make the electronic health records systems more efficient. Name one of America's top family doctors and a regular on Philadelphia magazine's Best of Philadelphia list. Doctor Murdoch has a wealth of experience and insight into the future of independent practice. 00:01:21:24 - 00:01:28:20 Justin Nabity Doctor Murdoch, you've seen firsthand how primary care has changed over the years. Where do you think it's headed next? 00:01:28:22 - 00:01:50:14 Dr. Winslow Murdoch I think it's that we're at a crossroads where I think there will be a splitting up of how we approach primary care in the community. I think for young, healthy people who really don't need a lot of health care services are more acute related problems. I think the existing programs that we have, where it's not necessarily relationship based, but it's problem based, will continue. 00:01:50:16 - 00:02:16:21 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And we'll see the expansion of, advanced practice practitioners filling in that role. And there will be more and more, integrated urgent care type issues, for the community, but for people that develop three dimensional health care problems, I think we are going to see a dramatic change in how we deliver that primary care to the community, to have a medical home for those people who otherwise or cannot be managed properly with the existing systems. 00:02:16:23 - 00:02:22:21 Neil Dougherty Really quick relationship based versus problem based. Tell me about that. 00:02:22:23 - 00:02:51:00 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So again, for somebody who's young and healthy and doesn't have three dimensional health care issues, they're looking for problem solutions that are quick, efficient, busy lives. They're looking for for, you know, quick care. And they can get that through the existing systems of how we deliver primary care in this country. But again, with more complicated patients, we need a different system to manage those people, to really be their their medical friend and their ally. 00:02:51:02 - 00:03:18:11 Justin Nabity Goes back to that patient doctor relationship, the relationship that's been strained and there's been a huge divide. It's it used to be like this. And it's gotten to be like this with so many other parties involved in the process. And patients don't really know where else to look to see what what the cause of the problem is, except for the person that they're closest to, which is oftentimes is you, you've been working in direct primary care and other ways of doing things differently with your practice. 00:03:18:12 - 00:03:24:01 Justin Nabity Tell us about what life looks like for you on a weekly or monthly basis. 00:03:24:03 - 00:03:41:04 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Again, people think if you're doing a lower patient number, of care that you provide for, for your population or you have a less busy job. And that's not really true. It depends on how hard you lean in and how much the patients rely on you as their medical friend connector for the rest of the health care system. 00:03:41:04 - 00:04:11:21 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So, you know, it's it's a full time job. It's not a it's not it's not the the grass is not always greener from an actual hours committed to patient care, but the amount of things that you can do, the value you can bring to the equation is dramatically different. So, I'll typically spend 4 or 5 hours with a new patient, not face to face, but going through their medical records, pulling together information, trying to put together a long term game plan, and medication simplification or correction, if you will. 00:04:11:21 - 00:04:36:12 Dr. Winslow Murdoch A lot of people, it's low lying fruit for new patients that come in that are complicated because nine times out of ten, I'll find dramatic, drug interactions or mistakes that are being made that are really changing the patient's life trajectory when I make those in the first couple of visits. But there's a big commitment of time to kind of put the pieces together that really traditionally is not allowed in a traditional primary care environment. 00:04:36:12 - 00:04:59:19 Dr. Winslow Murdoch That's a big difference in what we do. And then when ongoing care, usually half an hour to 45 minute visits for follow up, some people, it takes a half an hour just to vet their medication list, on a follow up visit, because they don't know what they're doing. They have multiple specialists that are changing things, and you really have a lot of, not on time to really get down to what's important for them. 00:04:59:21 - 00:05:13:10 Justin Nabity It's a great visual. That rope with all kinds of knots in it, you're trying to undo. And then once it gets pulled so tight, it's like it's gets really hard. You got to rip your fingernails out a little bit just to get that thing undone, to get it opened up. 00:05:13:12 - 00:05:34:07 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Absolutely. And then the relationship, you know, I don't necessarily appreciate this in the moment. But when people recognize that I care enough to do that with their. When they come in for each of their visits, they're much more likely to tell me what's going on or where they're having a problem. And to lean on our team, not just me, but my my office team. 00:05:34:09 - 00:05:51:06 Dr. Winslow Murdoch I have a full time front office person who is the coordinator and a clinical liaison who helps with drawing bloods and takes care of a super high risk population of people with regular contacts to keep them out of trouble. So, they're an important part of the team as well. And people look at us as part of their family. 00:05:51:06 - 00:05:52:21 Dr. Winslow Murdoch We're extended family. 00:05:52:23 - 00:05:54:06 Reid Lancaster I'm jealous. 00:05:54:08 - 00:05:55:04 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Yeah. 00:05:55:06 - 00:05:56:22 Reid Lancaster I'm not getting that care. 00:05:56:24 - 00:06:15:01 Dr. Winslow Murdoch No, no, it's, again, if you've seen one direct primary care practice, you've seen one. We all have our priorities and strengths. We have things we're interested in and things we lean into as priorities. And I just, you know, have have found a niche for this population that I'm primarily managing. 00:06:15:03 - 00:06:25:04 Neil Dougherty I don't I don't feel like I don't want to be dramatic or maybe, maybe I maybe I should be dramatic with this. But, so four hours, that sounds like great care. 00:06:25:08 - 00:06:29:01 Reid Lancaster 4 to 5, 4 to 5. I'm blown away on that number. Yeah. 00:06:29:03 - 00:06:43:12 Neil Dougherty What what are people typically getting? Because it's a roll of the dice here. I'm most people are just like, hey, do you know a good doctor? Can I find a doctor or whatever? And you wind up somewhere where your insurance sends you. And you what what what kind of preparation would most people be getting? 00:06:43:14 - 00:07:21:00 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Typically, you know, for the larger health systems they have access to, you know, care everywhere. An epic related product, or link, so they can download, you know, medications that have been filled, they can download whatever diagnoses have been billed for, for the patient in the last couple of years. They can download, bits and pieces of information, but to put it all together and make each of the different diagnoses a cogent story or, you know, a couple of paragraphs of what's, how do the things start, how things develop, what workup has been done that kind of so that you know when to repeat, when not to repeat, that takes 00:07:21:00 - 00:07:41:16 Dr. Winslow Murdoch a chunk of time. So typical primary care practice will download what's readily available, for them in their EMR. They'll, they'll take whatever comes up as, as working diagnoses. And when you actually go through it, a lot of those things really are true. Or they were a diagnosis that was to be ruled out and it was ruled out, but it sort of stays on the patient's list. 00:07:41:16 - 00:07:55:21 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So I've seen, you know, some people coming in with 70, 80 things on their epic problem list. And there's a lot of more knots to untie there as well, to figure out what's important, what's true and what's what's not really accurate. 00:07:55:23 - 00:07:59:05 Justin Nabity That's a knot on top of a knot, is what you're saying. 00:07:59:07 - 00:08:01:20 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Yeah. So and say. 00:08:01:20 - 00:08:09:18 Justin Nabity That you've seen one direct primary care. You've seen one. The rest of that phrase is what what's the what's the normal way that people say that. 00:08:09:20 - 00:08:15:00 Reid Lancaster If you've seen one primary care, you've seen them all? Have you seen them all? You've seen them. 00:08:15:00 - 00:08:28:03 Justin Nabity All. And Doctor Murdoch, you're saying you're seeing one. Can you really maybe tell us why you're saying it that way versus saying you've seen them all? Because it clearly they're not the same. 00:08:28:05 - 00:08:49:02 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Well, in in direct primary care, we all try to invest more time with each of our patients to really provide a value added service so that we develop patient trust and loyalty. That will justify us charging an extra fee. It's not through their insurance, it's out of pocket right now. It's, you know, post-tax or it's not pretax money they're paying. 00:08:49:04 - 00:09:09:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch But the amount of time and bandwidth that a primary care doctor has and their dedication to lean in to, getting a patient figured out and the knots undone, is going to vary individual. Individual. Some people might be very comfortable managing, you know, people with chronic kidney disease and heart failure and, and a whole host of other things. 00:09:09:15 - 00:09:32:16 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Other other primary care docs might be less comfortable with that. So they they rely more on their referral network. Although the patients, if you ask them, they really want to have that primary care medical home, they can focus on them and manage most of their care. It is so so it really depends on the bandwidth, the the interest and core competencies of the primary care practice. 00:09:32:18 - 00:09:44:00 Dr. Winslow Murdoch As well as the, the, the interest the doctor has and how much trust the patient has in the doctor to manage those things. So it's a it's a three dimensional chess. Any way you look at it. 00:09:44:02 - 00:09:50:08 Neil Dougherty This is super interesting. So what what what can we do. 00:09:50:10 - 00:10:19:17 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Well, right now there's really not a lot of resources to do intensive direct primary care. There are some, individual companies that that work with, populations of Medicare and Medicaid patients, such as, you know, some of the Medicare Advantage plans will work with specific companies like Chen Med, to manage a higher risk population that maybe has, more, socioeconomic barriers and hurdles to care. 00:10:19:19 - 00:10:50:04 Dr. Winslow Murdoch But that doesn't really fit for the whole community. So, so that's sort of fits a specific population with a limited amount of, limited coverage benefits, through that Medicare Advantage plan. So I think that if we can find a way to identify patients that are more complex, that require more three dimensional care resource primary care, not in the traditional model, of fee for service or, you know, inexpensive direct primary care where the patients, you know, out of pocket is maybe 75 or $100 a month. 00:10:50:04 - 00:11:14:17 Dr. Winslow Murdoch That's not going to work for this population. This population needs more resources in primary care than that. And that requires some, you know, unique and out-of-the-box thinking to try to build a system where that is supported and it becomes sustainable. In the community for primary care doctors that want to do that, that they can do that. And that's that's a whole new, you know, a new horizon. 00:11:14:19 - 00:11:38:01 Justin Nabity How do your colleagues respond to you when they are hearing about what you're doing? If they're not following in your footsteps or they're not doing something similar, what's the reaction that they give you? Do they think that you're doing something that is so beyond what's possible? Is it is it like like unreachable from their perspective, or are they are they inspired by it? 00:11:38:01 - 00:11:42:05 Justin Nabity Are they what's what? How do they process what you tell them about what you're doing? 00:11:42:07 - 00:12:09:01 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Well, again, if you work in a traditional model that accepts insurance, what we do at our office is you can't do it. I mean, you don't have the resource of time, to really coordinate, even if you had an army of, you know, social workers and nurses and what have you, you don't have the time to really build that relationship and dedicate yourself to really knowing that patient inside now, so it's always more transactional in that kind of an environment. 00:12:09:03 - 00:12:29:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch In, in other doctors are doing direct primary care, right now because their reimbursement model is generally $100 a month or less. They don't really have the resource if their practice is growing rapidly and they're starting to fill up their panel to have 4 or 5, 600 patients, they lose the bandwidth to manage this in this way as well. 00:12:29:13 - 00:12:46:22 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So, they think it's interesting. They kind of, you know, oh, you do that too. Oh, you do that too. You know, they're they're impressed by the breadth of what we can do, especially as we talked about having a point of care ultrasound really lets me extend what I can do from a physical exam diagnostic point of view. 00:12:46:22 - 00:13:10:19 Dr. Winslow Murdoch At the point of care. Again, I don't charge for that. It's just part of my physical exam. But but again, a lot of people say, oh, that's cool, but it's just not applicable to the environment that they're working in. So it's it's an aspiration maybe for some other people, just like simple things, you know, you want to take care of, if it's going to make you bleed out of your ears to figure out that not, they'd rather have that off to somebody else. 00:13:10:21 - 00:13:17:20 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And not have to be untangling all that stuff. So it really comes down to the individual and their and their tenacity to figure those things out. 00:13:17:22 - 00:13:32:08 Reid Lancaster Doctor Winslow, what, got you to the point where you wanted to provide this type of care because you you could decide not to untie probably a good 60 to 70% of those knots. But you've decided to untie them. What's got you to this point? 00:13:32:10 - 00:13:55:02 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Well, it was sort of an interim transition. I, you know, I started off independent, solo grew to five docs, a nurse practitioner, a PA, sold to a health care, hospital system. The hospital system, after about five years, decided to go for RVU based reimbursement for the doctors and all my colleagues, suddenly wanted to send all their complicated patients to me and just take care of urgent care. 00:13:55:02 - 00:14:18:10 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Same day, simple stuff. And and I realized that that that wasn't a model that I could survive in. So that's what I branched away. This was back in 2001. We're talking a long time ago, to sort of start this model in its initial stages and over the, over the, over the 3 or 4 years after that, we kind of built to this model, which is the way it's been running since. 00:14:18:12 - 00:14:22:11 Reid Lancaster So filling a need basically is how this got there. 00:14:22:13 - 00:14:35:14 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And, and I tended it to collect some of the, more complicated patients in my larger practice. So, you know, it was a win win for me. And it was a win win for my patients at that time. Making the transition. 00:14:35:16 - 00:14:48:10 Reid Lancaster We're starting to get more and more, patient following a not just physician following at DocNation. Could you could you, explain why because of the RVU based model, they would send you those more complicated patients. 00:14:48:12 - 00:15:11:19 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Right. So typically in a, in a reimbursement for a doctor taking traditional insurance, they're, they they can schedule different levels of complexity for a visit. But they really, because of the way things are reimbursed, want to simplify what their scope of work is during an office visit. So typically you get paid the most for taking care of one problem. 00:15:11:21 - 00:15:35:19 Dr. Winslow Murdoch If you now take care of two problems, the the the the multiplier of what you get for the work done, is diminished by maybe 50 to 75%. If you take care of three problems, it's diminished even more. So the focus of the clinician is let's identify what's the most urgent pressing problem, either medically urgent or to the patient's quality of life, urgent. 00:15:35:21 - 00:15:53:17 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And just focus on that and tell people to come back for a follow up, come back for a follow up. But in reality, a lot of these issues that come up that need to be addressed, really feed off of each other and really should be handled all in a longer visit. But traditional insurance doesn't really pay for that cognitive time to figure those things out. 00:15:53:18 - 00:16:02:08 Dr. Winslow Murdoch It pays for transactions in one problem per visit. So, that's not a good model for for more complicated patients in the community. 00:16:02:10 - 00:16:04:00 Reid Lancaster So I, I have all of. 00:16:04:00 - 00:16:15:19 Justin Nabity You, a patient, the patient needs the patient needs help. And they need help, not just in the biggest ticket item that is the alignment there. It's just a mismatch. 00:16:15:21 - 00:16:36:22 Reid Lancaster Like I have a lot of friends who listen to this. Now I'm actually getting more friends. You're listening to this. That's you know, that's just really picking up. And, they're saying what's what's why you why such a disdain for the, for the insurance companies? And if I could just speak in layman's terms, the doctors don't want to do what you're proposing, you think is the best way to do it, because they're not going to get paid to do it. 00:16:37:02 - 00:16:54:08 Reid Lancaster And they have to they have to to feed their family as well. This isn't just a huge money play by the physician to do that. It's no. If I literally did this over every day, all day, I wouldn't make money. I I'm not able to sustain this. So it's an expensive hobby. If you do that. There you go. 00:16:54:10 - 00:16:55:15 Reid Lancaster That's perfect. 00:16:55:17 - 00:17:00:20 Justin Nabity It's that we've been reduced to this, that the medical profession is an expensive hobby now? 00:17:00:20 - 00:17:09:07 Dr. Winslow Murdoch If you want to do a good job and you want to work within the system, it's a very expensive hobby. Yes. 00:17:09:08 - 00:17:10:14 Neil Dougherty 00:17:10:16 - 00:17:34:06 Reid Lancaster My wife said I've never heard you say the word hate so much, in your life. Until we start talking about insurance companies and hospital administration. And I said, well, I think I feel that way. I think I really feel that way. There's a there's a genuine hate there, because we've taken our highest educated level group of people and said, we're not willing to pay you to keep America healthy. 00:17:34:08 - 00:17:35:18 Reid Lancaster That's what it comes down to. 00:17:35:20 - 00:17:54:05 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And and people don't realize that, you know, a typical primary care practice overhead is, is close to $300 an hour without the doctor getting paid a penny. So, you know, and if your insurance is paying, you know, $70 for a visit, that's a lot of visits to cover the overhead before the doctor can walk home with a nickel. 00:17:54:05 - 00:18:03:00 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So you've got to really change the way you practice and really work within the rules of the system, which aren’t helpful for the physician or the patient. 00:18:03:02 - 00:18:30:02 Neil Dougherty I've been hearing lately a lot of this, about treat this one problem at a time. Keep the patient coming back, doctors talking about algorithms instead of treating everything all at once. And it's, it's concerning the data of patients. It was called conservative care decay. Or referral fatigue. And the patients would just stop just give up. 00:18:30:04 - 00:18:50:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And if they have a good primary care doctors, the specialists are stuck into the same system. So if they can't figure out in a visit or two what the issue is, they say, well, go back to your primary and we're left there to cut bait and go back fishing. So, but the primary care docs can really offload a lot of the routine, redundant stuff that specialists do. 00:18:50:13 - 00:19:10:11 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Ease up some of the efforts at the, er, ease up the specialty backlog for real, important specialty related care. If they have the resource to manage multiple problems per visit and really be a, you know, for, for people that need it. You know, this is not for everybody with a stubbed toe or an ingrown toenail or a, a boil or a sore throat. 00:19:10:11 - 00:19:40:22 Dr. Winslow Murdoch But this is for the people that really need three dimensional care, where one decision has knock on effects on 4 or 5 other conditions that are currently experiencing. So it's a different a different game, if you will, that than, traditional care. And right now, most of the responsibility that comes if somebody goes to urgent care, they're not having a response to the therapy that was given, they bounce back to primary care with a much more complicated problem than they initially went in with, that has to be that knot has to be untied as well. 00:19:40:22 - 00:19:52:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So it it really we need to re change re re really reimagine the way primary care is is is resourced to have it do the job that it's capable of doing. 00:19:52:15 - 00:20:16:08 Reid Lancaster I've been working in medicine for for a long time now. And I had a conversation two days ago with someone in my neighborhood, and it really kind of broke my heart. And and what he's and he's a very successful, very smart guy. But what he said was, I go on Google and I'll diagnose things myself, and then I have a friend that I'll call and I'll have them go prescribe me and I'll go to Walgreens. 00:20:16:09 - 00:20:37:00 Reid Lancaster I'll get my medication. I'm done going to the hospital. I'm done going to see anybody. And I was I just thought to myself, this is the greatest country on earth. This is the greatest country in the history of civilization, and not not in terms of of what we're able to, to, to achieve on a daily basis. We have everything at our fingertips. 00:20:37:02 - 00:20:55:06 Reid Lancaster And to hear that from a really, really educated guy, I thought to myself, man, that's a disappointment. And you're in. You're hit the nail on the head, doctor Murdoch, with with everything you're saying. And there's there's reasons why I like, you know, my wife is like, oh, that was. I can't believe you said that. That, like, I can it makes complete sense to me. 00:20:55:08 - 00:21:17:22 Reid Lancaster You know, you bounce from one doctor to the next four doctors in one year. And he said, just long story short, it wasn't that they weren't smart. Is is that I could never have a conversation with them that got me to the point to where I needed to be. And he was mad at them. That's the issue. He was mad at them not understanding why they have to churn and burn, why he only got 30 minutes with each one of them. 00:21:17:24 - 00:21:50:02 Dr. Winslow Murdoch And and you know, our time as clinicians is precious. And so trying to find ways to make ourselves more efficient in the day to day work that we do is critical. You know, using AI to help with chart notes when you're touching on 4 or 5 different problems with a, with a telemedicine visit or, you know, office visit, using, you know, a smart ordering for labs and having templates, doing things behind the scenes to improve our efficiency lets us have more bandwidth to have the the ability to untie more knots. 00:21:50:04 - 00:22:13:23 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So the more knots that they throw at us through prior authorization and pre certification and all the other nonsense that goes on, the less knots that we can untie, because we're tied up with a lot of that administrative stuff that doesn't go away in direct primary care because people still have Medicare or a commercial insurance plan, that has all those hurdles and administrative things. 00:22:14:03 - 00:22:28:24 Dr. Winslow Murdoch We just have a little more bandwidth to fight for the patient to get through those hurdles. But again, that's a resource of time that that takes away from our ability to handle other things. And that's another reason why patients are getting frustrated because their doctors have less and less resource of time. 00:22:29:01 - 00:22:49:09 Justin Nabity How long did it take for you to know that what you did in this last go around, because you've you've taken a risk, you've pioneered, you've made moves that doctors haven't made us have never made and never contemplated making in this last go around, with the right primary care, how long did it take for you to figure out or to realize that this was the right move? 00:22:49:11 - 00:23:21:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch 30 seconds? That's, that, you know, financially, we know we was it was, you know, disastrous for my family. For the first couple of years until we got things up and running properly. But, that's, you know, right away, I, I became energized and impassioned to be involved in organized medicine. The medical society, our county medical society, been very active with trying to, work on these issues from a systemic point of view, not just in my own, you know, day to day life. 00:23:21:15 - 00:23:36:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So as soon as I switched to this model, suddenly I'm like, oh, my gosh, I've got to share this with other people and get involved and make this the norm. 23-4 years later. Almost there. Right. Almost there. Yeah. 00:23:36:15 - 00:23:37:10 Neil Dougherty I got this. 00:23:37:16 - 00:23:44:17 Justin Nabity It was worth it. That two year struggle phase was worth it. In the end. You knew it was right away. 00:23:44:19 - 00:23:45:13 Dr. Winslow Murdoch Yep. Man. 00:23:45:15 - 00:24:10:10 Justin Nabity But thanks so much for being on with us, Doctor Murdoch. This is exactly what patients need to understand. The trouble here isn't the doctor. It's. It's everything that handicaps and ties the knots in and causes doctors hands to be stuck behind their backs. They're so limited. And Reid, what you said about what your neighbor's having to deal with. 00:24:10:10 - 00:24:27:03 Reid Lancaster I mean, it turns out it turns the patient against the doctor because of the lack of education and understanding, which is an education and an understanding that a patient should never have to have. They shouldn't have to understand RVU rates. They shouldn't have to understand why they're only getting 30 minutes. They should be able to just get that. 00:24:27:03 - 00:24:50:23 Reid Lancaster But they can't get that unless someone like Doctor Murdoch becomes a pioneer. But we shouldn't expect doctors to become pioneers. We should expect doctors to be doctors. So there's and there's too many large inherent problems with health care that we've been fighting for years now. And it's not getting better. It's not getting better. So, the concern is there. 00:24:50:23 - 00:25:08:15 Reid Lancaster And really the question is, is how many Doctor Murdoch's are going to come, come out into the public in the next 4 or 5 years? Because in the next 4 or 5 years, we're going to see big transitions with AI coming in and and taking over certain things that health care that are going to be monumental. 00:25:08:17 - 00:25:32:06 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So it's a fun time, scary but fun. And I'm optimistic. And this is a good way for me from a full career. This is a good way to have it. You know, I'm 65, maybe five more years in the tank. But it's a good way to kind of have things close, with closure of continuity of of of the model and knowing that it was the right thing to do from the start was helpful and kind of got me through a lot of rough times. 00:25:32:06 - 00:25:35:14 Dr. Winslow Murdoch So it's exciting. And thank you so much for having me on. 00:25:35:16 - 00:25:36:10 Neil Dougherty Thank you, doctor. 00:25:36:12 - 00:25:39:16 Reid Lancaster For all the work you've done for us. Thank you so much. 00:25:39:18 - 00:25:57:24 Justin Nabity Thank you. Your pleasure. This has been the DocNation podcast. If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe, rate and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you are listening to us. Your feedback really helps us reach more listeners like you. We'd also love to hear your thoughts and any topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes. 00:25:58:05 - 00:26:05:14 Justin Nabity Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn for updates, behind the scenes content, and join the conversation. Thanks for listening.