Steve Evans (00:02.092)
All right. Well well again, thank you so much for being willing to sit down and and have this conversation. It's something that I think will mean a whole lot to our audience, in addition to just your background and your work, but also I think just your perspective as you've come through these thresholds that I, you know, we discuss in every man's life. I think it would be great if you wouldn't mind just giving a quick maybe 10 second introduction to yourself and then we can get started.

Dan Bates (00:30.989)
Absolutely. Well, my name's Dr. Dan Bates and I have been a licensed professional clinical counselor, LPCC, for the last sixteen years. and I have my PhD in counselor education and supervision, my master's in counseling. I'm licensed in Kentucky and Ohio. but I would say maybe the thing that really

I think this distinguishes my work is that I specialize in men's mental health. And you know, I'm I'm a guy myself. And so I think that's one part of my work that maybe stands out is maybe a little unique. I don't think that's really common in my field, for someone specializing in men's issues and men's mental health in particular. So I have a I have a lot to say on men's mental health.

And counseling and male psychology, but a lot of it is born out of just my own mental health struggles too and coming to terms and grips with things and healing and growing in the unique ways that intersect with me me being a man and masculinity. And so I'm really grateful for you you having me on your episode and I'm happy to to dive into all the all these topics.

Steve Evans (01:57.784)
Thank you. And and I appreciate your o transparency and openness. I mean, I think for me, this show was also born from just my own sort of struggle to find one that connection, but also a place where you could really talk about these things that seem to be, you know, every you know under the radar, right? Everyone sort of goes through something like this, I feel like, or every man, but there's not really a name for it, or nor a place to discuss it. And oftentimes we feel isolated as

result of that. So you know, I I definitely it resonates with me, you know, your background and your reasons for doing what you do. and you know, thank you for sharing. I mean, to begin, I always ask, you know, where where would you in across the arc of your life begin your story? I typically first begin when we are thinking around like high school age. high school to college is often the first transition, but often leaving home is is a very poignant moment.

for for us. So if you could kind of bring us back to that moment when you first left home

Dan Bates (03:04.935)
There are so many I would say crossroad moments for me and so many that stand out. I'll say one story. It was it was I've s I've shared this story with patients before and because you you talked about kind of underground moments, right? Like it wasn't a very visible moment on the outside.

But I feel like it was a moment where I was going down either path B or path A. Like it really was like, whi which which direction are you gonna go, Dan? so like I went to a private Christian high school, and in that private Christian high school we would have chapel. And so I feel like the the the guy who spoke, it it was kind of just a

divine moment, if you will, where he basically, I feel like, told me my life story. he told me, or he told the story during the meeting of a young man who grew up in a really dysfunctional home. Okay, that that kind of resonated with me already. He grew up very upset and angry at his dad. Okay, that resonated with me already. And then he told the story of where the young man was obsessed over the flaws

And inadequacies and bad behavior of his dad. And the young man was just consumed with it and hyper-focused on it and raged against it. And was like, my gosh, he's he's describing me. And then he said that young man went on to basically replicate his dad's behavior. Basically, he became, despite his desire, he became his dad. Because

through his hatred and obsession and anger and hyper focus on his death, that's all he was absorbing. That's all the input was. And then when that's all the material you have on how to construct yourself and shape yourself, that's what you become. And I was like, that's that's going to be me. That is on the that's the path I'm on. That's path A right now. and it was a moment of like, do I want that?

Dan Bates (05:31.009)
And if I don't want that, which I didn't, is there another path I could follow? A path B? And that's the seed that was planted in in me in that moment was I can't let anger and hurt and rage be the defining the defining feeling, I suppose, or the defining perspective that I have on my life.

I'm obsessing on what I don't want to be. And rather I have to shift my focus on what I do want to be. And so I I I don't know. I I think I had someone else share this idea with me, but I began searching for other men in my life who I respected, I admired, and I was attracted to.

you know, physically attracted to, but attracted to in terms of like their character and their behavior. And so from there, this sounds creepy, maybe, but I c I kind of scanned my my networks and my environment for men that I just was like, you know what, there's something cool about this guy. I would love to be him in this way. And so I, you know.

I started hanging out with one friend in particular because I just liked his dad. And I would watch how he interacted with his wife, with his kids. There was like a gentleness to him. He was still a man's man, but he just treated his wife with respect. He was kind and considerate to her. He was nurturing and caring towards his sons. I was like, I love that. Something about me resonates with that. And so then I kind of took a piece from that. I took a piece from another man.

I asked one guy to be my mentor, and I sat with him and talked with him, poured my heart out with him. I'm like, I really like the way he interacted with me and listened to me. He was a good listener. And so, Steve, I I think what I did is I developed this amalgamation of positive influences of men and combined it in such a way that produced me. And so

Dan Bates (07:54.029)
It was looking back on it, it was a moment of agency. I I used my agency to define a path B and to develop a vision for what a good man looks like and then started in embodying that that vision. I don't think I'm not saying I'm perfectly there, I've arrived, I'm I'm that amalgamation.

But I can tell you I'm on path B. I am absolutely on path B because I know what I would have been on path A. And I think even at times I step back onto path A and I am embodying the example I saw growing up. And it's it's scary. Like, I don't like this. I do not want to be on this path. Let me be mindful of that and quickly get back on path B.

Steve Evans (08:50.274)
Definitely.

Dan Bates (08:50.375)
and think about who is the mentor, who is the friend's dad, who is the the older brother. I had an older brother who I really respect. Who is the older friend or who's who is just a a friend I did have and like w how is their behavior representative of my values and my goals and my vision of who I want to be. Okay, let me let me get back and grounded in that. so that was

Steve Evans (09:15.362)
Right. That makes sense.

Dan Bates (09:18.149)
That was a pretty powerful moment. And again, it wasn't like a moment where on the outside you could say, something's really transforming in Dan. But internally something was absolutely transforming in me. And it was just kind of slowly evolving and emerging over time. And I'll I'll stop talking. I'm I'm taking up all the oxygen, but I in clinically, the way I kind of take that personal life experience is I'm I'm sitting with men.

Steve Evans (09:40.236)
No.

Dan Bates (09:48.177)
Who have had been abandoned by their fathers, or they've had drug addicted fathers, they've had angry fathers, they've had emotionally absent fathers, or they're raised by a grandfather who's just not equipped to give them the example that they need, or an uncle or some someone, right? They've got some kind of harmful example of a father or or a man. And I say that's not the end of the road for you.

All is not lost. You're not a hopeless case. There's other ways. There's other paths that you can follow. And and take it from me. You know, I I I feel like I'm I'm fortunate and blessed. I shouldn't be where I am. I shouldn't have the family that I have. I shouldn't have a career. I should be in a ditch somewhere. Like I should be much worse off than I am. So if I can make it, you can make it. That's what I say to men. If I can make it, you can make it.

But it's not gonna be given to you. You can't just inherit it. You might have to go out and be proactive and constructive in creating that vision for yourself. You know, for those guys out there where they do have those good examples and it's just gifted to them, man, count yourself fortunate and blessed and lucky. And I'm jealous of you. I'm not mad at you, I'm jealous, right? For us, other men who just haven't had that.

wonderful example given to us, we now bear a responsibility to go and, like I said, construct that positive vision for what it looks like for us to be a man.

Steve Evans (11:30.816)
Yeah, I fully agree. I and there's so much there that I'd love to dive into if that's all right. thinking back, you know, to sort of your early home, it sounds like it wasn't always easy. And I think that's something that, you know, also for me, I think I there was that frustration, that anger, right, that was there. and then in order to sort of sublimate or transform that anger into something positive, there must have been a moment for you. you know, you c

Dan Bates (11:36.188)
Yeah.

Steve Evans (12:00.76)
You talked about, you know, this person who was leading, you know, the sermon or who had spoken at church. Was there, you know, a follow-up that you ultimately ended up talking to him, or was there somebody who ha perhaps who sort of gave you that framework of, you know, you should s you know pause here, you're at the a fork in the road, you can make one choice or another, right? Was there someone who maybe handed you that framework or you know, someone who came alongside you during that that time?

Dan Bates (12:30.171)
I I don't think anyone ever really gave me that framework. Like so that gentleman who spoke, I I don't think I ever really interacted with him again. But I did so I'm a counselor. but I did seek out a pastor and asked him to like mentor me and disciple me. What it turned out in into being, Steve, was I just came to him every week and just

poured my heart out and just spilled my guts and like I don't know, just laid it all out. Like I needed to be in counseling. I didn't know what counseling was really. I didn't know it was a thing. all I knew was, you know, there's like things in my church that I can access, but I didn't I wasn't aware of like professional services that could be of assistance. So I went and just kind of

use the the resources I had, but it it just turned out in you know, me just pouring my heart out and like talking. What he gave to me though, Steve, was there was a moment where like, you know, the Bible would be out and we maybe we'd be reading a passage or something, and it would just kind of slowly scoot over to the side and it was just us talking. And what he demonstrated to me and modeled to me was empathy, active listening.

Steve Evans (13:31.64)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (13:52.859)
caring about me and just being a safe presence. and and just showing me love and and nurturance and care. That was another moment where I felt like I had healing. So I, you know, I've heard it said, and I think it's true, that we encounter all our hurts in relationship, and we also experience healing in relationships. So it's

At the end of the day, what we're dealing with in is relationships. Well, you can't get out of it. There no man is an island, right? So I get my hurts in relationship and I get my healing in relationship. I was I was very nervous of being vulnerable and opening up with someone else, especially a man. but that's what ended up happening. And so I had that experience with him where it was really mentoring.

But in a way it was kind of like counseling. And it just made me think, and I I think I just went to Google, like, what is a profession where you sit and you talk with someone and you work through problems? And then Google said, counseling. And I was like, that sounds interesting. Like you get to you get to sit and do that all day with someone. so for me, it was it was kind of like

my story took on this redemptive arc where my pain and hurt and suffering became a point of healing, transformation, and a a sense of mission and purpose to then help other men along the way in in similar circumstances. and that's where I feel like I'm at right now. Like this is my passion. I feel like this is my mission and my purpose is to

Steve Evans (15:29.11)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (15:39.383)
extend to other men what was given to me. and and you can kind of sorry, go ahead.

Steve Evans (15:43.04)
Absolutely. And I guess

sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I was just gonna ask, you know, was during those times or that time, you know, when you were going to this person and you were pouring your heart out, what were some of the things that maybe you had to reckon with? was there anything that, you know, perhaps you still carry to this day, or, you know, something that you had to unlearn ha in order to kind of reach this this this place of peace where you're at?

Dan Bates (16:01.435)
Mm.

Dan Bates (16:16.641)
yeah, I had to I had to learn to trust other people and that it's okay to trust other people and I still struggle with that to some degree. If if someone I deem in my eyes isn't trustworthy, I I just I'm so quick to cutting them out and not making any positive risks in building a relationship with them. And I recognize that that can be premature at times or informed by my own anxiety and I'm

And I'm you know, I I what that tends to result in is a lot of loneliness. and I'm I'm not I'm not unlike a lot of the men I work with where men are dealing with a loneliness epidemic and crisis right now, men are more lonely and disconnected now more than ever. And I observe that in my own life. I'm very disconnected socially and

Being socially connected is such a significant part of our mental health and it's such an important part of I think our formation as men, building each other up, supporting each other, iron sharpening iron. and I and I know too, when I'm when I'm in good relationships with other men, they're pouring into me and I'm pouring into them, and I'm like grounded. You know, I I've got

a solid foundation for my mental health. When I don't have that on a consistent level, I'm switching back over to path A. You know? I'm I'm the worst parts of me are coming out and dominating my decisions and responses to my kids or my wife or my decision making. So it brings the worse out of me. so yeah I think

Steve Evans (17:53.26)
Right.

Dan Bates (18:13.649)
There's always, I don't know, it's it's weird. It's like these two concurrent timelines are always running in me. I could switch to path A or s path B. It takes effort to stay on path B. and I I mean, just to kind of take it back to a personal, I see elements of the the dark side of my dad keep coming out in my behavior. And I'm like a little bit like I'm kind of at war with that. Like it's a battle, it's a daily struggle.

to kind of say whi which which am I going to choose? Am I going to choose that amalgamate amalgamated patchwork, vision of positive manhood that I created in my head? I I essentially kind of created a model. Am I going to choose that model that takes effort and doesn't feel natural, or I'm going to drift back into that dark side behavior I observed for my dad that had the more n dominant influence on me.

Steve Evans (19:08.098)
Right, right.

Steve Evans (19:12.406)
Right. And I find that that struggle that you you define really articulately is one that many of us face, including myself, right? The the thing that feels perhaps familiar, you know, in reference to father-son relationship, and then becoming a dad yourself and then having to go through those same stresses, right? And and you find yourself reacting in a similar way and you kind of have to take a step back, right, and say, Okay, I which side am I actually responding from? you know, and

That nature, that natural response compared to the chosen path is often the one of the hardest day-to-day. and I know when it comes to career, it sounds like the the mentorship really formalized that vision for you around what you wanted to do. was there anything that was perhaps like building underneath at the time that you weren't quite aware of, but that served you, you know, to propel your career forward?

Dan Bates (19:51.366)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Evans (20:12.176)
Mm.

Dan Bates (20:15.229)
I was I was deeply interested in family dynamics. deeply interested in psychology. I got my bachelor's of science in psychology and I just wanted to learn. I just wanted to figure myself out and I wanted to figure out my family and understand why we behaved and the way that we behaved. And that really opened my eyes to family systems and the ways in which a family kind of

is a is a micro culture, in and of itself that's embedded within a larger culture of your community, that's embedded in a larger comul culture of, you know, your state and your country. And so it it just it just made me understand that what I grew up with isn't necessarily normal or healthy.

And so it it made me really intrigued by that and interested in that, in the ways in which trauma affects you and the ways that you you grow and heal through trauma. so all that was very intellectual. It was a it was a deep intellectual curiosity. But then there was just moment after moment after moment that it stepped over into the personal and allowed me to understand, I'm walking around with a wound.

There's that statement of the walking wounded. I was I was a walking wounded person with no idea that like I'm bleeding out and I've got this huge laceration. and so I guess one takeaway from that was I I I'm you know, and Carl Jung said this that until you make the unconscious conscious, you're doomed to repeat it, or or no, not doomed to repeat it. I'm mixing I'm mixing quotes here.

until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your fate. and then you know, we have to learn from history because history will repeat itself. So I I kind of mix two two ideas there. But it you know, they track, they track with each other. that I'm carrying around those wounds and then I'm replicating those patterns that I grew up with. So, you know, as I've come to learn about psychology, we would call that the

Steve Evans (22:21.326)
Agree.

Dan Bates (22:32.611)
intergen intergenerational transmission of trauma. So here I am doing it unconsciously. And so through the intellectual piece, you know, I joke I went to graduate school for a counseling program. That was a very expensive therapy session. s so I accessed that information intellectually, academically, but then I was able to kind of make sense of it through my friends, through my

my friends who was going to the counseling program with, we would talk. And that was like that was therapeutic. So on a peer to peer level, we were making sense of the information that we were learning and then working through our own issues. And so that was incredibly valuable to just do it with with peers and friends. yeah. So then fast forward I got married.

And then marriage is a whole nother level too, because as much healing and growth I did, then you get married and then you really expose and you're really vulnerable. And so I think I have learned so much from my my wife because in some of the ways that I was hurt, she wasn't, and she was hurt in other ways. And so I think we established a relationship where we work towards healing and growing together.

And that was so I mean, I've been married for fourteen years, I have three kids, and I think my relationship with my wife is probably one of my most prized relationships because even though her and I struggle and we fight just like any normal couple does, at bottom, there's just a deep level of respect and love for each other and that we've invested in each other and grown with each other and so I think marriage is is really

been such a a a wonderful thing in that regard. but I still mess up. I mean my path A still shows up in my marriage and I hate that. I hate when that is coming out and I'm hurting my wife or my kids because I've for whatever reason, you know, I've switched over to path A.

Steve Evans (24:49.26)
Right. And I mean when the you know, you get married you end up having to bring in, as you mentioned, the you know, i entire universe of emotions of another person. You know, and so, you know, before being married, you know, you were talking about how your identity was formed through a relationship really, in partnership with the men who were mentoring and then also through college and friends as you went through graduate school. And I mean, walk me through a sort of the merging of, you know

that identity with this new identity of husband as well as perhaps professional, right? Those two spheres. Talk to me about the, you know, how you merged them and and made it work.

Dan Bates (25:21.478)
Hm.

Dan Bates (25:32.633)
Yeah, so as you were as you were talking the the idea of intimacy, just the word intimacy kept coming to mind. I think I initially experienced intimacy through my male friendships. And that was a really interesting experience for me to experience emotional inter emotional intimacy with another male.

again not sexual or physical attraction or anything like that but it was just authent experiencing authenticity and vulnerability with another male friend and really being seen and really seeing him and being being affirmed and validated and understood. That was just like whoa my my my brain exploded because it it filled up such a deep

Steve Evans (26:06.531)
Right.

Dan Bates (26:27.847)
part of my soul and in and it just made me think there's there's a better way of going through life. you know and like this this this can be part of manhood and masculinity where you have deep friendships and connections with others, kind of a sense of brotherhood almost. and and then okay, let me throw out this other idea of vulnerability. I don't know how I could I don't know how you can heal.

in experience growth without vulnerability.

If I can't let others in and I can't be honest about a problem and and a and a an issue, if I can't be honest about path A, I don't think I can ever experience path B.

And so part of it was telling my story and then other men really listening and understanding and taking an interest and feeling with me. And then putting putting an arm alongside me and saying, I'm I'm sorry you went through that, or that sucks, or that hurts, or or even speaking something positive in into me and saying, But I see I believe in you and I see

I see something better in you than what you grew up with, or I see your resilience. So that to me was like, whoa. I mean, this this was like a drug. I mean, talk about getting high. I was getting high on friendship. And I was getting high on mental health. And you know, sometimes I joke like I I joke with my my patients, like I'm a drug dealer and I get high on my own supply.

Steve Evans (28:03.276)
Right, right.

Steve Evans (28:16.147)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (28:18.211)
in and what I'm dealing out is like mental health and counseling and friendship and intimacy and belonging and vulnerability. So I mean to me these are just some of the most I don't know, powerful, meaningful things that I deal with on a day to day basis as a counselor, but I've I've experienced it as a person.

And that's I think what helps translate it is my my real life experiences and my real life struggles. I can now translate that into a clinical practice and clinical work with men. and there's always those moments in counseling where it's like, you know, it it it it's a professional relationship, but we start going deep and vulnerable and we're bonding and we're connecting. And it's like this is something really

Different, something really needed and powerful. And I can see their cup starting to get filled, their soul starting to get touched. And I say this, I'm just, you know, I'm I'm an N of one. I'm just, I'm just that first person, and hopefully I can be your gateway drug into reproducing this with other men in your life and taking a risk. Because I'll I'll have a lot of men say, I get along with the women in my life just fine. And maybe I even prefer women and I feel more comfortable with women.

Steve Evans (29:12.675)
Right.

Dan Bates (29:36.817)
But guys, I don't know. You know, I'm not sure about guys. And I'm like, same. I I can kind of resonate with that. Same. But when when you can go deep with a guy and you can tell your story and really be seen and heard and have vulnerability, there's really nothing like it. so it's it's just the power of human connection and human relationships. And so I think us guys we're missing opportunities.

if you look at the research, Steve, one of the the strongest predictors of longevity is social connectedness. And so, you know, if you look at the data, men are more socially disconnected and we're more lonely and we have fewer friendships and we're spending more time online, we're viewing porn more, we're playing more video games.

we're doing less and less IRL and we're doing more and more URL and we're forsaking the mental health benefits of social connectedness. I see it playing out in my life in a micro way, but I see it playing out in the male population in a macro way. and then I talk about it in our counseling sessions too. So

I had I had several sessions today, Steve, where I'm I'm telling men, Hey, go make friends. Go make a friend. and then and then the normal typical response I get is, Yeah, how do you do that? It's very awkward making of making friends in in adulthood. I don't know how to make friends anymore. So it's like, okay, let's talk about that. Yeah.

Steve Evans (31:21.23)
Yep.

And I mean all of that I would say aligns to our mission at at the Missing Conversation. I think that's why we hope these episodes will, you know, go out and and reach people, right? Because hearing, you know, just once a scenario that resonates and where it makes you feel like, man, like somebody else went through that too, can unlock so much. and it seems like it has even in in your life and as you work with your patients even today.

And so I think when it comes to the sort of career and profession, it it's a hundred percent clear, like that the inspiration that drives you forward has it has yielded tremendous fruit, right? In terms of the patient relationships that you have and also the the work that you do in writing. and I mean all of that I feel like can drive someone forward in their world. and I guess was there anything when you added

Dan Bates (31:55.109)
Yeah.

Steve Evans (32:24.692)
on, you know, the marriage and then now you mentioned children, right? That became an additional perhaps challenge that you had not really foreseen before. Was there something that once it it arrived you kind of realized, whoa, I I wasn't prepared for this, you know.

Dan Bates (32:41.599)
I I think tr becoming a father, holy cow, that that rearranges the whole nature of reality for you. I mean talk about everything getting turned upside down. yeah, I n you know, I had a professor in graduate school say the introduction of the family means the death of the marriage. Or th or or to put it another way,

The marriage has to die in order to give birth to the family. And obviously you still have the marriage, of course. but there's some truth to that. I think he was trying to be provocative just to get people thinking and, you know, interacting with that idea. But I I think for me, I got married, that was a huge life transition, going from single to married, and then

my wife and I, we fought a lot in those first two years. And I am so grateful for that because I had to learn how to communicate and I had to learn how to fight. And I l had to learn how to fight fairly. And even though I I just gave you this big long story, Steve, about me choosing path B.

marriage I think exposed how I was still in many ways still on path A. And it showed me all the all the remnants of path A that were still in me, that dark side I inherited from my dad. And the ways in which, you know, I I I had some bad habits, I had some bad behavioral patterns, I had some wounds, and they were then getting ex you know, not exposed. I mean they were getting exposed, but they were

I was perpetuating those out on out onto my wife. And you know, it was it was the walking wounded where, you know, wounded people hurt people, hurt people. I was wounded and then wounding. I was the wounded wounder. and there's this great book called The The Wounded Healer. I won't get into the spirituality of it, not to make this podcast super religious, but it's this idea that from your woundedness

Steve Evans (34:41.166)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Bates (34:59.603)
you you can experience healing and then help others heal. So you know, to me, marriage was like I I can step into this wounded healer role with my wife and her to me. So then we're both working through our woundedness and then producing healing in each other. So you know a a really practical example would be is like my wife giving me feedback and saying, you know, when you do this it hurts me.

And then I have to investigate that. You know, and for me, for a long time, I would resist. I would get defensive. No, you're not hurt. And I'm not being, I'm not doing this behavior that's hurting you. And it's just like, that just doesn't work. That's not mature. It doesn't fly. And so then I was able to trust her and take that information in and then investigate it within myself and say, aha, I've got some woundedness in there. I've got some bad habits in there. Let me correct that.

And then heal it or challenge myself to a higher standard or something. So I'm not just perpetuating and replicating this hurt now with her. That's not fair to her. That's not right to her. It's not fair to me. I d I don't want to be that guy. so I think I found a lot of empowerment and liberation through responsibility and taking responsibility for my history and the influence it had on me.

For my wounds and and having being called to a higher standard so that I'm not replicating it in my new family system with my wife. And then boom, you have kids, and then you that all gets inverted again because now I'm truly learning how selfish I am. Because when you have kids, you have to sacrifice, you have to put yourself at second place in that.

Steve Evans (36:36.046)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Bates (36:56.677)
kiddo and like making sure they survive is first place. So then that that brings out a whole nother level of exposure where my dark side got exposed, you know, even to a greater degree. and again my wife was really instrumental in that regard. She really is affirmed me as a father. I think a lot of dads and I feel I just feel really sad for dads when I they say this is they're unsure about

Caregiving for their children, you know, like, how do diapers work? And you know, how do I warm up the bottle? so then they try and then they get shot down by their their spouses. You know, their their wives are, I don't know, maybe they're really anxious. You know, they're a human being, so they're not reacting in the the right way either. But dads are trying and they're getting shot down. You know, you're not holding the neck, you know, you're not supporting the neck when you're rocking the baby. You're you're rocking the baby too.

Too vigorously, or you know, bring your voice down lower when you're singing to the baby. It's just like criticism, criticism, criticism. For me, my wife really affirmed all the things I was doing right. And then if I wasn't doing something ideally, she would just give me feedback and say, Hey, you know, maybe consider doing this. And so the other factor too is my wife was a nurse and so she worked nights. So for about

sometimes four days out of the week, I was solo dadding with a baby and I was terrified. I mean, I was so anxious, Steve, and so depressed and so fearful of not doing it right and like the responsibility of caring for a child and just I was I gained a lot of weight. I didn't get good sleep. I was very I mean

All those things I was talking about, social isolation. I was more disconnected from my friends than ever. I didn't realize how much I needed my friends to make me feel okay. And then all my friends are gone, right? Because I gotta take care of the baby. I can't I can't go out and hang out. I gotta go home. then you had financial pressures, and then you had managing schedules. You know, my wife's working, I'm working, we got a baby.

Dan Bates (39:20.911)
And it's just like, my gosh, the pressure cooker you go through. And so when men go through that level of stress, we don't cope with those stressors well. Men tend to go to external means of regulating their internal state. So another way of putting it is men tend to be externalizers. So that's when men start to drink more, they start to use porn more, they start to mess around with drugs or alcohol.

Steve Evans (39:24.568)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (39:50.115)
they start acting out in inappropriate ways, you know, maybe sexually or behaviorally or all sorts of things. Men just don't cope with those things well because we don't have the language. You mentioned this in the intro. We don't have the language to name what we're feeling, and we're terrified of asking for help.

Steve Evans (40:10.147)
Right.

Dan Bates (40:11.917)
I did all that crap. I didn't know how to ask for help. And so I I for me, my my main struggle in life and my my way of poor coping has always been food. So I coped with my emotions through food and my my weight really exp blew up. it just I you know, and I look back at pictures at that time, it kind of breaks my heart.

I feel a lot of empathy for that that Dan at that time 'cause he was he he was figuring stuff out, overwhelmed, didn't know how to process and deal with it, and and was just eating, eating, eating. And I I I look really overweight, I don't look happy, I look stressed and kind of lost. And so I just I ha I really empathize for that guy.

And so I but I again I I think I see that same pattern playing out with my patients. When they make that transition to being new fathers, there is a lot of paternal postpartum paternal depression and postpartum paternal anxiety. I actually just did a presentation on this recently because we

We give a lot of attention to the mothers and their needs and what's going on with them hormonally, physically, psychologically, but fathers are going through hormonal, physical, and psychological profound changes as well. And I want us to support fathers more. so that you can set a good foundation for your family and for your kids and for parenting and those relationships. So, you know, in a way I'm I am trying to

Cor correct what I grew up with a little bit. And my idea on how to do that is support fathers more. and not to get too far into the weeds on this, but one of the most determined factors of child well-being and mental health is the mother. But one of the most determined factors of the mother's mental health is the father's involvement. So

Dan Bates (42:25.535)
I think by us dads getting really involved in the childcare responsibilities and being really active and engaged, we are actively and directly and significantly promoting the mother's mental health and well being. Mothers are less stressed, they're less anxious, they're getting more rest, they're more rejuvenated, they can engage more when the fathers are helping and assisting.

Now, obviously I'm not the primary caretaker in a sense when the child's really young because I'm not the food source. but I can still be incredibly helpful in taking over with the baby, changing diapers, feeding, letting the mom go out and get a break and restore get restored. I'll take over feedings at night, you know, if you got a good healthy supply in the fridge or something.

And what that produces again, like I said, is helps mom's mental health and that helps the kiddos' mental health. there is also some research research that shows fathers who are actively engaged in ch child rearing and and supporting and nurturing the kiddos. you'll you'll see the outcome around like age three or four, where the child has less behavioral issues. And so that is a a

Steve Evans (43:24.846)
Right.

Dan Bates (43:47.505)
quantitative empirical finding where you can see behavioral issues far greater reduced because of the father involvement. so I I think just in so many ways, if we can support men's mental health in that sensitive period, in that vulnerable period, we're helping mothers, we're helping kids, and we're helping, you know, the dads feel good too. I want I I wanna feel good. you know I want men to feel good.

Steve Evans (44:06.254)
Mm-hmm.

Dan Bates (44:16.183)
So I want them to enjoy fatherhood. It is one of the most meaningful things I've ever done in my life is becoming a father. I am making meaning and feeling a sense of purpose and mission like I've never felt before in just being a dad. I love being a dad. but then, you know, like I said, I I I'm having to work through a lot internally to get to that point to it of enjoyment and delight, because

Steve Evans (44:16.29)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (44:46.991)
A whole new level of my path A is getting exposed and I'm having to work through that. yeah. I would say, yeah, I'm like just in a real practical sense, being a dad is forcing me to learn how selfish I am. And it's okay to give up that selfishness because there's something so gratifying and meaningful in sacrificing for the benefit of my family and knowing that they're being taken care of.

Steve Evans (44:51.384)
Right.

Dan Bates (45:15.279)
And I get to I get to do that. I get the privilege to do that. And it keeps me going. even even in many days when it's hard and I'm tired and I don't wanna work, it's like but I get to do this for them. Yeah.

Steve Evans (45:28.984)
Right. Right.

And I I would say so many of our audience has gone through something like very similar to this where you know the kids come along or you know you have this new person in your life and it exposes something that you perhaps weren't was not or were not aware of before. You know, and like sort of what it allowed you to reach a certain stage is insufficient in order for you to thrive in this next one, right? And so implied in what you've been saying is a lot of this work, but the work is not, and I do want to call

Dan Bates (45:55.846)
Mm.

Steve Evans (46:00.44)
This out, it's like a analytical, self-analytical type of work that you have to be open to in order to unlock the sort of thriving in the next stage, right? And being open to having those conversations with friends or being open to even just doing some work with a a counselor or a therapist or even journaling just to understand what are what is my path A, right? When do I divert to my vices? You know, when what and and why am I doing that, right? So that's the

Dan Bates (46:22.183)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Evans (46:30.35)
kind of questioning that I've I'm hearing is actually supporting your definition of what it means to be a man, right? And I think that is something that I hope the show can showcase is this different envision of what it means to be a man today, right? It's not, you know, machismo or, you know, not a man who doesn't help with the kids because that's what the women do. You know, that kind of stuff I feel like is is gone away and needs to go away and replaced in

Dan Bates (46:38.215)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (46:49.34)
Yeah.

Steve Evans (47:00.32)
and and be replaced by s this type of vision of manhood, right? Of a very authentically grounded person who is okay and able to lead because of the work that he's done on himself, right? It's it kind of leads me there, you know, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on sort of this new concept of manhood as well.

Dan Bates (47:22.989)
Okay, and Steve, what you just said makes me so delighted that you somehow you and I connected and you you you messaged me because that vision that you just laid out is my vision too. I am s I could I could do this for free. I could do this all day. There I feel like there's really nothing more more meaningful that I could do with my life than support that vision that you just laid out, which is supporting men.

And empowering men to live healthier lives, lives that benefit themselves and those around them. It's really kind of a grounded in a a strength-based pro-social perspective on masculinity. so I mean you I think you've looked a little bit at my work, but for me, I am a big advocate for positive masculinity and for men tapping into

the psychological resources that are inherent in their their sense of masculinity, because there's strengths in there. And for me, like I'll I'll just give you I'm talking very theoretical and academic. I'll just give you one real example of this. I think for men, men are driven by competence. Men really are motivated to pursue something to have that sense of competence. So for when when I was caring for my kids,

You know, my wife would give me tips and ideas and feedback, and I was reading books and looking at blogs and listening to podcasts on fatherhood. One real practical way was, you know, when I would my my child would be crying and I would be trying to soothe my child, I would rock my child, I'd pat her back, I'd sing to her, and I'd rock. And I realized it wasn't any one soothing technique. Sometimes it was a combination of multiple techniques.

And I felt so accomplished when I could soothe my baby and I could figure out her needs. She had an upset tummy, so she needed to be burnt. Or she was hungry, so I would feed her. Or she was tired and I'd rest her on my chest and we'd we'd have a nap together on the couch. And I just felt so accomplished and like so I'm the dad whisperer, you know, I'm the baby whisperer. And to me it was like I'm I'm not being feminine.

Steve Evans (49:22.018)
Yeah.

Dan Bates (49:49.861)
I'm not being girly. I I felt so masculine. I'm being a dad who knows their child's needs and can meet them in a competent, skilled way. I felt so accomplished as a man in that moment. so that really opened my eyes of like there are a number of ways of accessing my manhood and my masculinity that are helpful and advantageous.

Given the context that I'm in, even something as simple as like soothing an upset baby. And now, you know, when I hang out with guys and they've got a child, I just smile and I just I almost get jealous of those dads who have really young kids. I mean, like, I'm like, man, you're lucky. You get to just have those sweet bonding moments. I mean, for me, some of my greatest moments as a dad are when my daughter, my first daughter.

maybe she doesn't want me sharing this. She gets overheated really quickly. And when she was a baby, she would just get really hot and sweaty. And so I would have her on my chest and we'd take a nap. And then by the end of the the nap, I would take her off and I would just have a sweat imprint of where she was. And I would I you know I would try to cool her off and like unzip her onesie a little bit and give her some breathing room, but she would still get overheated. And I just was like

Steve Evans (51:09.122)
You have

Dan Bates (51:18.063)
I love this shirt. I love this imprint on my chest. I couldn't be happier about it, and it just was so sweet. but yeah, I I think you know, that's one example, and I think there are dozens, hundreds of ways in which men can approach areas where they we would normally get nervous, we would normally avoid, or get hesitant or reticent.

But there's actually ways of engaging with those things where you can fully be masculine and manly. But you're you're contributing. I'll give you sorry, give you one more example. I read this really great book called what was it called? All Joy and No Fun. maybe I'm remembering the title wrong. Google it later. But it's one of the best books I've read on parenting because it's not a parenting how to.

It's a it's a book that's actually about the experience of being a parent. So my experience as a dad, becoming a dad. and not just like, you know, how to have an emotionally mature child and four easy steps. And what it talked about in that book was that mothers and fathers bring different perspectives, and that's actually each perspective is really needed and necessary for healthy child development. And fathers are bringing

Rough and tumble play, we're bringing adventure, risk, and fun, and we're we're supporting our kids being resilient and going out in the world and facing challenges and rising to the occasion and working through it. We are the guides on the side. We are the cheerleaders, and we're like, go out and get it. Go do something hard, and I'm here with you and supporting you through it. I'm not saying mothers can't do that, but

A mother's inclination is not necessarily towards those concerns and those foci, where if fathers are really intent on that, we need the counterbalance of mothers to say, no, no, let's nurture, make it safe, listen, empathize, validate, care, love, support, do all those necessary important things, attend to their needs, identify them, support them. It's like you need the healthy combination of both those foci.

Dan Bates (53:39.129)
in order for healthy child development. So I'm I'm saying to dads, you've got a really important contribution to make to the family life and to your child's development. Don't back away because you're nervous on how to do the diaper properly or you don't know how to heat up the w you know the bottle. Yeah, don't put it in the microwave.

Steve Evans (54:01.665)
Right.

Dan Bates (54:02.107)
Heat up water and put the bottle in the water. Don't put it in the microwave. there's micro pl plastics and you know, the hilk the milk's not going to be consistently warmed through and there could be a hot spot. Okay, fine. But don't disengage because you put it in the microwave once. Okay? Learn from it. I don't put the bottle to heat it up in the microwave. There's other ways of doing it. Keep engaging. Stay engaged. You we need you, Dad. We need your voices. And so

I know I'm hyper focusing on fatherhood. I'll give you I could give you more examples, Steve, of ways in which men can show up in their marriages, in their friendships, in their communities, in the in their workplaces, where they can tap into the psychological resources that I think are embedded in their masculinity that are a benefit. But it oftentimes I think men get stuck on that path A, that dark side.

There is a path B for every man. There truly is. where men can make decisions that are good for themselves and good for others. That path B is there for all of us. I just I my heart breaks for men who don't realize they have another way of engaging with the world and with themselves. They they haven't envisioned the path B yet. but life is so much harder and better on path B.

Steve Evans (55:30.432)
I agree. And I think thank you so much for just the transparency and openness that you've brought to this conversation. It has been tremendous. and I think, you know, one I guess final element that I'll add is oftentimes there's a feeling of almost grieving of leaving one of the stages behind. you know, perhaps from having, you know, from getting married, you were single before, perhaps you could, you know, w watch Netflix all night or whatever it was, but now you have to be in bed, right?

Dan Bates (55:48.015)
Hm.

Steve Evans (56:00.356)
Know you have a first kid, but now you can you know it's not only that you can't watch Netflix anymore, but it's sort of double counted, right? You now have 10 minutes, you know, while you're brushing your teeth to scan the news, maybe as your free time for the day. And so there's there's a bit of the grieving of that freedom that kind of comes with stepping into these responsible roles that require this deep responsibility. can you speak to that that grief and how to how kind of come to terms with that for

And also like how you yourself have dealt with these tr like transitions where it's not so easy to jump from that path A to path B.

Dan Bates (56:41.189)
Yeah, I I think life is a series of of deaths and rebirths. sorry, I've got Invisalign in right now, so my I'm a little lispy. But but yeah, there's a series of for every death there's a rebirth of some kind. And so the the death of my singleness gave birth to my relationship. and then like the death of that marriage gave birth to the family. So there is

Steve Evans (56:50.893)
it's all good.

Dan Bates (57:09.605)
There is something you know, in me that dies, that gives way to something else. Now I could get stuck very easily, like you said, and I I think you laid that laid that out really well. I can get stuck on, I'm not single anymore, and I don't have the freedoms that I had in my singleness. And then I start to resent and and and have bitterness of the new context that I'm in. You know, I'm married and I can't go out with the bros like I want to.

You know, or I can't stay up all night and game, or I can't drink like I used to. And I'm just hyper focused on all the things I can't and all the things I don't have anymore. that's a great way to be stuck. That's a great way to be dominated and controlled by bitterness and resentment. And that's a terrible way to live.

But when you can accept that the fact that that part of you is gone.

And maybe it maybe I get to do something for ten minutes versus two hours.

I now I and I can accept that that part's gone. I'm now open to the new things I get. You get to be married. You get to have a soulmate and and have a partner. I think marriage is so meaningful to go through the trenches with someone.

Steve Evans (58:28.236)
Right.

Dan Bates (58:40.813)
And to re you know, like I said, not to repeat everything I said before, but to realize all the ways in which I'm wounded and that's exposed to me and I can heal those, that's meaningful and joyful. So so why would I limit the opportunities of accessing that because I'm so stuck on things I don't get to have anymore? Okay, so then

If you can take that mindset, and I think you said this earlier in our conversation, I could have ideas and strategies that were geared towards a previous context that are no longer adaptive to my current context. So I could be hung up on not getting something that I had in a previous stage of my life, and I'm missing the opportunities of what's in front of me right now. So

So that's where I would coach men on thinking through that, you know, if you can accept the loss and grieve it, I think I I love that language. I grieving and mourning, yes, because there was a part of you that that was allowed to exist in that previous context that is now dead. Let's just call it. Call it like I see it, you know. Death is not strictly defined by a physical life being extinguished.

Death can also include dreams. You know, I don't get to realize a dream. I think that's one thing of fatherhood. my dream had to change. I don't get to do things that I wanted to do individually. That was really hard for me to accept the death of particular dreams that I had. if I didn't have kids.

I I I I I love academia and I love doing research and publishing. I would be an animal with publishing more content and doing way more research. And I I I'll admit sometimes I get stuck in some bitterness because here I am playing with my kids and playing apples to apples and ha just having fun and joking.

Dan Bates (01:01:00.987)
But it's like that is a opportunity cost because to play apples to apples with my kids means I'm not working on on a project that I find personally individually meaningful. So I could I could live in bitterness and resentment and I'm like, God, I have to play apples to apples with these these kids and I don't get to do what I want. I am just telling you, that's so easy to slip into that. It is so

sneaky and pernicious and that can arise in your thoughts in a thousand different ways. And then I'm now that petty, mean path A Dan that I just I don't want to be that guy. So the path B version of myself is someone who acknowledges, yeah, those individual dreams are dead. I need to accept that. And now I can be open to this other dream.

of being a dad who's sharing joy and and making memories and making meaning with my kiddos. And we're doing it through apples to apples, right? But we could also do it through riding bikes. And we can also do it through going for a walk. And I love being creative with my kids. So I I I grew up with a passion for art and creativity. So yeah, I'll do a craft with my kids.

Steve Evans (01:02:12.696)
Right.

Dan Bates (01:02:26.341)
You know, or we'll we'll watch a YouTube tutorial on how to draw a penguin and we're drawing penguins together. and it's like, so I get to experience this. Like I I nothing I didn't really lose anything. I'm just choosing one dream for another dream. So I'm not I'm never bereft of of of getting a positive. I'm just choosing between two positives.

And what a powerful reframe that is. Because now instead of just being personally, you know, butthurt and like, I'm I'm being deprived. I'm going without. No, you're not, Dan. You're you're just exchanging one dream for another wonderful dream. So now I g like I said, I get to make meaning with my kids and draw penguins. That I and I love and and my kids will draw me things. You know, w my wife and I say, you know, don't don't buy us stuff because they don't have the money or they don't know what to buy.

But but draw us a picture. Write me a letter. go create something and give it to me. And I I hold on to these things. They're so precious and they're so sweet. and my kids will write me a letter or draw me a picture, and I I mean, just my heart is filled up as a dad. And so I I get to realize that. I get to access that. and and that, yeah, that comes through, like you said, grieving and mourning the

the death of that individual dream and I g that allows me to realize the the fatherhood dream. but that's an ongoing thing. That that is not an on off switch. Right now I just I think that way all the time. I some some days are easier than others. Some days it's a struggle to really just get grounded in the present moment and like, okay, I'm doing this and this is the dream I'm living out. So yeah.

Steve Evans (01:04:24.696)
Definitely. Well well thank you. And in closing I always ask, you know, when looking back across the full like l the arc of your life, excuse me, not the version that perhaps you designed, but the one that you actually lived, what is the thing that turned out to matter the most?

Dan Bates (01:04:44.523)
my god. Can I do I have to say one, Steve? Are you making me say one thing?

Steve Evans (01:04:48.078)
You could say as many as you would like.

Dan Bates (01:04:53.083)
What what a mean question you just made me answer here. I can't I am having a hard time saying one thing. I'm gonna say my faith and my spirituality and my relationship with God. I'm gonna say my wife and I'm gonna say my kids and I'm gonna say my my my male friends. I have I have female friends, I just wanna clarify. I'm not I know I've talked a lot about my male friends. I have wonderful female friends, but

you know, having that male intimacy. I you're you've asked me an impossible question, see, this is too hard. I can't boil it down to one thing. I I really think it takes like a village to r to make a man. So it was a combination of all these different positive inputs that helped me get on path B. Yeah.

Steve Evans (01:05:30.089)
Yeah.

Steve Evans (01:05:46.018)
That's amazing. Well well thank you for being here and for sharing your truth with us. and I very, very much appreciate it.

Dan Bates (01:05:53.765)
Yeah, thanks for having me, Steve.