[sean]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast i'm dr roger mc phelan all fans out there
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[sean]: gen pod dot com that's it some interesting news recently alex berenson is back on
[sean]: twitter shan have you been following eric alex barrinson over the yeah i'm aware of
[sean]: how he got kicked off twitter
[jim_gottstein]: to
[sean]: and the story behind it and a lot of the things he was sharing during
[sean]: the the covid crisis and and why he got kicked off so yeah there was
[sean]: interest there and i was recently listening to another of my my daily podcasts and
[sean]: i heard them speaking about the situation and what the latest is it's interesting once
[sean]: you go yeah alex berenson is somebody that i was following on twitter for some
[sean]: information regarding the efficacy of vaccines with covid and one of the things that was
[sean]: i think special about alex berenson was his history as a new york times columnist
[sean]: and personally you know at that time as many of our listeners know i was
[sean]: knee deep in a lot of the literature on safety and efficacies of anti depressence
[sean]: because we were creating some position statements here for our practice and once i've learned
[sean]: about how these drugs came to market some of the fraud the problems within the
[sean]: clinical trials how they were marketed i was obviously very skeptical about vaccines for a
[sean]: novel virus in a short amount of time so ultimately i think that what drew
[sean]: me to alex berenson was somebody else who was a skeptic and wanted to approach
[sean]: putting anything into our bodies with some healthy degree of skepticism and challenging authority and
[sean]: so he recently was brought back on to twitter he was kicked off for quote
[sean]: quote spreading misinformation about the efficacy or the safety of ovid vaccines he has since
[sean]: been vindicated as a lot of the data now comes in and just as sometimes
[sean]: the universe allows us to be connected to people that our outside of our normal
[sean]: day to day it was funny that i got an email from our our guest
[sean]: today and our guest is an attorney and he's an advocate for people diagnosed with
[sean]: serious mental illness but jim got steen is most famously known for sapiniapining and release
[sean]: in the ziprexa papers in late two
[jim_gottstein]: yes
[sean]: thousand and six resulting in a series of new york times articles and an editorial
[sean]: which calling for congressional investigation into the safety of the drug you know who wrote
[sean]: that article alex berenson alex berenson so you know that alex barrison was somebody who
[sean]: was a skeptic because he intimate knowledge of the pharmasutical industries practices yeah right so
[sean]: in two thousand in january two thousand and nine elie lily who was the pharmasutical
[sean]: company that manufactured the drugs i prex pled guilty and agreed to pay one point
[sean]: four billion in civil and criminal finds for the activities that were revealed in the
[sean]: ziprexa papers um in twenty twenty jim our guest published his book the siprexa papers
[sean]: giving a first hand account of what really happened including his battles with the powerful
[sean]: legal teams that represent eli lily and also his work on behalf of a psychiatric
[sean]: patient by the name of bill bigley um who's really made this ordeal possible to
[sean]: capena this information and expose the sideprexa papers i think it's safe to say it
[sean]: was a heroic act on his part and saved tens of thousands of lives while
[sean]: placing himself at risk for criminal prosecution he found the law project for psychiatric rights
[sean]: and we actually extremely honoured today to to have him in radically conversation have a
[sean]: radically genuine conversation jim welcome to the podcast
[jim_gottstein]: hank you very much i'm pleased to be here a year very flattering i might
[jim_gottstein]: just mention that i tried to get alex to read my book from before it
[jim_gottstein]: was published and he said he's too busy saving the world
[sean]: yeah
[jim_gottstein]: which you know
[sean]: my
[jim_gottstein]: so anyway yeah that's an interesting convergence there
[sean]: yeah alex is doing great work i'm a big fan of his and i think
[sean]: it's coming from a place of just being very conscious of the harms that can
[sean]: be created by farmasuticles and really believing and informed consent and respecting india everyone's individual
[sean]: rights to make choices or decisions in the best interest of their own health their
[sean]: own body and their welfare which brings me to an opening quit and a lot
[sean]: of our listeners might not understand your background but could you tell us really how
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: you got involved in such a passionate way in psychiatric legal advocacy
[jim_gottstein]: well
[sean]: yeah
[jim_gottstein]: in nineteen eighty two when i was twenty nine i got into a situation where
[jim_gottstein]: i didn't get sleep um and basically they call it icottic but i went crazy
[jim_gottstein]: and i subsequently learned anybody who doesn't sleep for long enough well we'll basically lose
[jim_gottstein]: it and i don't have a particularly high tolerance for lack of sleep and so
[jim_gottstein]: you know i've been pretty successful before that and i had no idea that my
[jim_gottstein]: mind could you know become unreliable but anyway it did um m and it was
[jim_gottstein]: in june june and anchor alaska and i had gone to my dad's house to
[jim_gottstein]: try and get some sleep over there and i just fallen asleep when i mean
[jim_gottstein]: i think for like a second which is something that you know i've experienced when
[jim_gottstein]: i come out of what you know what's called manic episodes before but anyway i
[jim_gottstein]: just fall asleep and i woke up and i heard the devil coming down the
[jim_gottstein]: hall so
[sean]: it was
[jim_gottstein]: i was on the second floor and i went over to the window and i
[jim_gottstein]: looked down and there was lawn down there in the sidewalk and and i knew
[jim_gottstein]: how to do a parachute landing fall so i i thought well if i missed
[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i'll be okay i was in my underwear it was one in the
[jim_gottstein]: morning and it was light because it was june so i jumped out i missed
[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i did a perfect parshoot landing fall and i didn't hurt myself but
[jim_gottstein]: i got grabbed and hauled into the hospital in a straight jacket um m and
[jim_gottstein]: so they shot me up with something that ut me to sleep and so i
[jim_gottstein]: wake up and it's bad and there's this attendant at the foot of the bed
[jim_gottstein]: with a clip board he asked me what day is it and so i say
[jim_gottstein]: i ask him how long have i been asleep so he writes down that i
[jim_gottstein]: don't know what day it is and
[sean]: m
[jim_gottstein]: that's kind of the way it went and they um m people that believed that
[jim_gottstein]: i that i was a lawyer said that i would never be able to practice
[jim_gottstein]: law again and and when i told him i'd gone to harvard law school uh
[jim_gottstein]: that confirmed that i was delusional cause
[sean]: m
[jim_gottstein]: all that stuff is verifiable anyway i locked it they said that i would you
[jim_gottstein]: know have to be on these drugs for the rest of my life i was
[jim_gottstein]: put on mellarel i said i don't want thorazine and they said oh this is
[jim_gottstein]: meller it's nothing like thorazine course it's exactly like thorazine and but i really looked
[jim_gottstein]: into a psychiatrist who said that i just gotten into a situation where i didn't
[jim_gottstein]: get sleep that i could learn to deal with that and get on with my
[jim_gottstein]: life and so i feel like i was extremely lucky to have escaped a career
[jim_gottstein]: as a mental patient for the rest of my life and and that really changed
[jim_gottstein]: changed a lot of you know the way i thought about the world but so
[jim_gottstein]: that's really what triggered my um psychiatric um advocacy although i had actually was in
[jim_gottstein]: the middle of doing this law suit against the state of alasca for stealing a
[jim_gottstein]: million acres of land it had been granted to alaska's mental health program and trust
[jim_gottstein]: m in any event so that's what did it and then when i read matt
[jim_gottstein]: in america by robert whittaker in two thousand two um m to me it was
[jim_gottstein]: a litigation road map on how the challenge forced drugging not simply based on people's
[jim_gottstein]: you know human rites and inform consent say but that when you're being for struck
[jim_gottstein]: you don't get any you now any consent your consent is taken away from you
[jim_gottstein]: and but based on the idea that it was it's not in people's best interest
[jim_gottstein]: so i contacted him i got him to send me all all the research that
[jim_gottstein]: he cited and it's on pychrites dot or the law project for psychiatric right website
[jim_gottstein]: all of the actual studies that he cited in mat in america and so that's
[jim_gottstein]: i had pretty much known what the story was with the drugs before but i
[jim_gottstein]: didn't think i had had anything particular to contribute to the effort against the four
[jim_gottstein]: struggling but with reading that in america i felt that i did
[sean]: so you mentioned that i mean the way that you view it is that you
[sean]: got lucky
[jim_gottstein]: m
[sean]: and
[jim_gottstein]: my
[sean]: that's sad for me to hear because when we're talking about a health
[jim_gottstein]: hm
[sean]: care profession we shouldn't look at things in terms of being lucky to get somebody
[sean]: he was actually ethical
[jim_gottstein]: m
[sean]: and scientific so bottom line here is that you were sleep deprived and exhibiting symptoms
[sean]: associated with sleep
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: deprivation you were when you were admitted into the impatient hospital exact symptoms that you
[sean]: were presenting with were labeled as a mental illness and and that mental less itself
[sean]: will require a certain drug for the rest of your life and you're labeled as
[sean]: mentally ill and if you're mentally ill well then you're disabled and you're unable then
[sean]: to produce in society or re engage in your profession as you up to that
[sean]: point we're able to successfully do
[jim_gottstein]: right and that's what happens to the vast majority of people that get get hauled
[jim_gottstein]: in to the system as they their lives are ruined and in fact that's what
[jim_gottstein]: happened to bill bigley and as i write in my book he he was two
[jim_gottstein]: months older than me and he got hauled into a p the alaska psychiatric institute
[jim_gottstein]: two years before i was and he was just slammed with hal do m he
[jim_gottstein]: didn't have my you know social privileges he was a little tiny alaska native but
[jim_gottstein]: his his psychiatrist at the hospital was the same as the one that saved my
[jim_gottstein]: life his name was robert albert and he was really an incredible guy and the
[jim_gottstein]: discharge notes on on that first admission was that his prognosis was guarded depending on
[jim_gottstein]: how he was helped to deal with this divorce that he had and is now
[jim_gottstein]: losing his dog ers and being saddled with support payments he couldn't handle which is
[jim_gottstein]: what really brought him in and of course he wasn't given any help with that
[jim_gottstein]: he was co operative and took the drugs m and he was discharged came back
[jim_gottstein]: i think the third time he started refusing and so then they started forcing him
[jim_gottstein]: and by the time i met him in you know in early december two thousand
[jim_gottstein]: six he'd been hospital it's over about seventy times and his life had just been
[jim_gottstein]: ruined and you know i think they're for the grace of god go frankly
[sean]: m
[jim_gottstein]: anyone really
[sean]: so jim i got a question when you were in two thousand two when you
[sean]: had that lack of sleep what what law were you practicing
[jim_gottstein]: night
[sean]: at the time
[jim_gottstein]: in age
[sean]: i'm sorry what law were you focused on at that time
[jim_gottstein]: it was basically business law my
[sean]: okay
[jim_gottstein]: family business law basically
[sean]: it so
[jim_gottstein]: i had yeah
[sean]: yeah
[jim_gottstein]: and i actually was doing this middle health trust case but i had to give
[jim_gottstein]: it up at the time
[sean]: yeah so it's interesting this profound experience that could have went you know a different
[sean]: direction and really negatively impacted your life actually inspires you to go down a path
[sean]: and dedicate your career to advocate for those who are would be placed in similar
[sean]: positions now the books i press the papers is a fascinating account of a lot
[sean]: of details around the legal system the power of big farm and how we as
[sean]: individuals consumers our best interests are not always taken into account united states legal and
[sean]: health care system now i really do suggest that if you are listening to the
[sean]: podcast you get the book because you're going to you know you're gonna get lost
[sean]: into it like i got lost into some of the details i learned so much
[sean]: about the legal process the law i think well was so riveting for me jim
[sean]: was your know your thought process each step of the way and what led to
[sean]: your decision making me as a psychologist just fascinating about some of the moral dilemmas
[sean]: that were presented but for our listeners ould you just kind of briefly tell us
[sean]: how you received the theziprexo papers
[jim_gottstein]: you bet so it was i think november twenty eighth two thousand six and i
[jim_gottstein]: got this call out of the blue from this dr david eagle man who is
[jim_gottstein]: an expert witness in this massive litigation over zyprixicausing diabetes and other metabolic problems he
[jim_gottstein]: had access to what's called discovery which in litigation where the parties have to exchange
[jim_gottstein]: information and that that discovery was placed under a secrecy order that provided that if
[jim_gottstein]: he was supine in from in another case he had to give eli little notice
[jim_gottstein]: and a reasonable opportunity to object before he complied with the sabina so he um
[jim_gottstein]: and he was already working with alex barrenson at the new york times and so
[jim_gottstein]: and alex had found this report that was posted on our website by dr grace
[jim_gottstein]: jackson on zyprexa that i had submitted as in a case faith myers case which
[jim_gottstein]: is as its own interesting story but it's called lands open which is the chemical
[jim_gottstein]: name for zyprix dubious danger drug dubious efficacy or something like that so anyway alex
[jim_gottstein]: found it he told dr eagle man well maybe you should call this gaston guy
[jim_gottstein]: and see if helsopinayou and so when he finally got around and telling me that's
[jim_gottstein]: what he was about i said yeah you know i'd be happy to do it
[jim_gottstein]: and i had my own reasons for doing it and he had his reasons for
[jim_gottstein]: doing it and so i had to go look for a case and that's where
[jim_gottstein]: i because you can't you can't just a pin something you've got to have a
[jim_gottstein]: case to do it so i went looking for bill and that's that was the
[jim_gottstein]: whole story in itself because in alaska they really keep these m proceedings to if
[jim_gottstein]: we're going to be radically genuine
[sean]: m
[jim_gottstein]: yea i mean psychiatrically imprison people i mean that's really what the involuntary commitment is
[jim_gottstein]: and but they keep them really secret even though the statute says that the person
[jim_gottstein]: that the hearing show be open or closed to the public as the respondent just
[jim_gottstein]: a person being accused of being male shallow left but they never told the person
[jim_gottstein]: and there was never any case that had been public before i started taking these
[jim_gottstein]: cases anyway so i found bill and i was accused of ambulance jason that but
[jim_gottstein]: anyway so
[sean]: can i stop you there
[jim_gottstein]: so we
[sean]: so m i will stop you here and there because there's just like interesting parts
[sean]: of the story i want to make sure audience gets this you know at this
[sean]: time are you're you're looking for a case in order for you to legally obtain
[sean]: the these papers and then to try to protect the public
[jim_gottstein]: correct
[sean]: okay um for for
[jim_gottstein]: right
[sean]: our audience what is tiprexa
[jim_gottstein]: so ziprexa i mean it's marketed as a quote a typical anticycotic but i don't
[jim_gottstein]: like to use that term i use the term neurolyptic which was one of the
[jim_gottstein]: original terms which means seize the brand which is what it does and basically it
[jim_gottstein]: blocked seventy to ninety per cent of the dopamine in the front lobe and the
[jim_gottstein]: bays of ganglia and the lymbic system and so i used to think i think
[jim_gottstein]: of them as chemical straight jackets before i knew more about it but actually their
[jim_gottstein]: chemical lebotomies because they block the transmission dopmene in the front of low so i
[jim_gottstein]: could go a little bit more on what happens which but basically the response of
[jim_gottstein]: the brain to that is because the blockage is to pump out more dopamean for
[jim_gottstein]: a few weeks and then the brain will grow more dopamen receptors so where they've
[jim_gottstein]: never found any kind of brain abnormality and people diagnose which getsafrenia or any other
[jim_gottstein]: you know actual you know what uh described as a quote mental illness once these
[jim_gottstein]: drugs have been introduced then you do see brain changes and then if someone quits
[jim_gottstein]: the drug especially abruptly you have this flood of dope a meat causes symptoms which
[jim_gottstein]: then you know the psychiatrist says see your mental illness is coming back when actually
[jim_gottstein]: it's the withdrawal from the drug
[sean]: okay so you know at this time you're you're very educated already at the danger
[sean]: dangers of these drugs but in order for you to obtain some of this information
[sean]: that's under a protective privacy order you have to sapin these papers for a case
[sean]: that you're on which you don't have at this point
[jim_gottstein]: right so i you know i talked to bill and i knew that zyprexa was
[jim_gottstein]: use pretty extensively at the hospital at that time and i asked him you know
[jim_gottstein]: you know you on you know been given ziprexa and he never really gave me
[jim_gottstein]: a clear answer and but i was pretty sure he had been and i mean
[jim_gottstein]: that led to problems later and so i supped you know so yeah you have
[jim_gottstein]: to have a reason and so the point was is that and in the mayor's
[jim_gottstein]: case which i had i mentioned before the with the great jackson report i had
[jim_gottstein]: one this alaska supreme court decision that said um m the statute says that if
[jim_gottstein]: the person is incompetent to decline the medication and the hospital gets to do whatever
[jim_gottstein]: they want i went and i said no they can't do that they've got to
[jim_gottstein]: at least prove it's in the person's best interest and there's no less intrusive alternative
[jim_gottstein]: and so and they agreed with me on that and so so then the legal
[jim_gottstein]: basis was as well you shouldn't be allowed to drug bill with with these drugs
[jim_gottstein]: because it's not in the is best interest and here are these secret documents that
[jim_gottstein]: will show that and so i'm entitled to these docet and to help prove my
[jim_gottstein]: case that bill should not be drugged against as well
[sean]: okay what what is the secret information that in this document that can serve the
[sean]: public
[jim_gottstein]: well first of all i'm under an injunction not to further disseminate the ziprex paper
[jim_gottstein]: so i can't really say but but there you know numerous newspaper reports but i
[jim_gottstein]: can't say that i can really answer your question i mean they caused diabetes and
[jim_gottstein]: they hid that from the doctors they cause diabetes and they cause other metogolic problems
[jim_gottstein]: and a pretty high percentage of people do uh significant weight gain and many people
[jim_gottstein]: would gain a hundred pounds in a year and people that got diabetes got diabetes
[jim_gottstein]: even if they didn't gain weight and so that's you know that's a deadly thing
[jim_gottstein]: i mean i tend to say that now tens of thousands of people have been
[jim_gottstein]: killed by ziprexa but i don't don't know if you know d peter girsha who's
[jim_gottstein]: one of the now most may be published medical researchers in the world and he
[jim_gottstein]: calculates that by that time our hundred thousand people have been killed by zitrexa so
[sean]: wow
[jim_gottstein]: you know and the fat you know so yeah these are just this is just
[jim_gottstein]: staggering harm and this was being hidden from the doctors and and so you know
[jim_gottstein]: i thought maybe the public should be informed of this
[sean]: absolutely so you're kind of faced with this i'm going to describe it as a
[sean]: moral dilemma because you have to determine you have to have to protect yourself legally
[sean]: because any way you distribute this information you potentially could be violating the law and
[sean]: putting yourself at risk while at the same time you're you have this information that
[sean]: you know is harmful to hundreds and thousands of people i think at the time
[sean]: ziprexa was there one of their top selling drugs i think it was like grossing
[sean]: a billion
[jim_gottstein]: number one
[sean]: it was number
[jim_gottstein]: five
[sean]: one
[jim_gottstein]: billion a year
[sean]: five billion yeahgrossing five billion a year and you have the privilege of having having
[sean]: this information that demonstrates that people could develop metabolic indra diabetes cardiovascular problem significant waking
[sean]: people will die from taking this drug so i'm just really interested in kind of
[sean]: maybe understanding you know what you are going through emotionally at that time how you
[sean]: came about making the decisions that you did
[jim_gottstein]: well first off i was determined to do things legally and so my life my
[jim_gottstein]: position was is that dr eagle man was the one who signed you know on
[jim_gottstein]: to that secrecy order and he had to follow it and so when i had
[jim_gottstein]: supped en him he had to give eli lily a reasonable opportunity to object before
[jim_gottstein]: he gave them to me and i expected that they would object and that i
[jim_gottstein]: would be in court arguing to the judge in alaska why you know bill bigley
[jim_gottstein]: was entitled to these documents to defend against being drugged against as well because it
[jim_gottstein]: showed that it wasn't in his best interest but i there were some you know
[jim_gottstein]: games played so for example eagle man sent notice to the general council of eli
[jim_gottstein]: lily figuring it would take a little while to get to the lawyers handling the
[jim_gottstein]: case and and then there was i maybe get into that later but but when
[jim_gottstein]: i but once i have the documents as far as i was concerned i was
[jim_gottstein]: free to distribute them but
[sean]: because
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: you
[jim_gottstein]: also
[sean]: hadn't
[jim_gottstein]: know
[sean]: signed
[jim_gottstein]: lily
[sean]: any
[jim_gottstein]: you know
[sean]: document is it because you hadn't signed
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: any agreement
[jim_gottstein]: and and they had been and they'd come out from under the secrecy order and
[sean]: hm
[jim_gottstein]: so um but i even though lily had been slow i knew that once they
[jim_gottstein]: got going they would be big and fast so once i found that i had
[jim_gottstein]: him i got them out fast and i and i got them out i tried
[jim_gottstein]: to get him out in a way that could not be gotten back and so
[jim_gottstein]: they ended up and i and i in the book i you know disclose who
[jim_gottstein]: the people were that got them out on the internet is i think it's called
[jim_gottstein]: bit torn or tour and it was kind of a precursor to wick leagues
[sean]: hm
[jim_gottstein]: um m and so i got him out to them most and i was i
[jim_gottstein]: would as i was making dvds of these and it was right there you know
[jim_gottstein]: it's kind of during the christmas rush and anyway i had my i had my
[jim_gottstein]: music you know rock music going in the background and i had three computers making
[jim_gottstein]: d v ds um you know addressing envelopes and going out to to the post
[jim_gottstein]: office putting them in in the mail and and i
[jim_gottstein]: one of my thoughts was it was kind of amusing i knew it was right
[jim_gottstein]: in the christmas rush and so it might take weeks for some of these to
[jim_gottstein]: get somewhere and it did but this was i think on december twelfth two thousand
[jim_gottstein]: six and the new york times the first article came out on december seventeenth so
[jim_gottstein]: um in addition to the dvds i had set up what's call and f t
[jim_gottstein]: p file transfer protocol which is designed to send a lot of files and big
[jim_gottstein]: files over the internet and that's how will hall who put him out on the
[jim_gottstein]: internet got him and that's how alex berenson got them as well so
[jim_gottstein]: anyway that and then that's what happened then course eli lily did get big and
[jim_gottstein]: fast some it is kind of amazing how they could whistle of federal judges to
[jim_gottstein]: issue orders against me
[sean]: yeah i mean this book plays out like a movie so i almost like saw
[sean]: it in my mind like there's a movie and i think this would be a
[sean]: great movie do hope somebody
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: out there turns this book a movie and one of the things that really stand
[sean]: stands out is that you know you're i'm thinking about this like the stress that
[sean]: you're under i already know because you wrote about it that when you're when you
[sean]: struggle with sleep and can become a problem you really struggle with your your own
[sean]: mental health and these these eli lilly attorneys are like pit bulls and they don't
[sean]: sleep like they don't ever sleep because they're they're
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: they're emailing you at like three in the morning and two in the morning with
[sean]: questions but back to the moral dilemma you were facing you had to determine what
[sean]: is a reasonable amount of time for them to object now that
[jim_gottstein]: a
[sean]: seems very arbitrary
[jim_gottstein]: no that was dr eagle man's call
[sean]: okay
[jim_gottstein]: i supine him
[sean]: right
[jim_gottstein]: it was his obligato and lily screwed up i mean in all kinds of ways
[jim_gottstein]: okay
[jim_gottstein]: so for example the he's supine and someone who supine has a right to object
[jim_gottstein]: to a spina and then when they object to the spina everything stops so and
[jim_gottstein]: under this agreement that he signed you know he has to notify lily and then
[jim_gottstein]: he has to do what lily says so lily should have just directed him to
[jim_gottstein]: object but they didn't and said i get this call um m i forget when
[jim_gottstein]: it was it was a couple days after they got out from eielilily got a
[jim_gottstein]: lawyer in alaska and he called and left it was hanka so i'd gone home
[jim_gottstein]: a little bit early and so it was late afternoon and he left a voice
[jim_gottstein]: mail on my my voice mail which i picked up later that night in and
[jim_gottstein]: so i thought i don't want to seem like and then i immediately tell eagle
[jim_gottstein]: man dr eagle man they're on to us and so and he decides that they've
[jim_gottstein]: had a reasonable opportunity to object and so i decide i think i don't want
[jim_gottstein]: him to think that i'm avoiding him but i don't really want to talk to
[jim_gottstein]: him right now and so so i call him first thing in the morning at
[jim_gottstein]: eight in the morning figuring he's not going to be there and that's and i
[jim_gottstein]: left a message for him and i didn't hear back from him until a couple
[jim_gottstein]: of days later that friday then i got all these threatening letters from eli lily
[jim_gottstein]: and then the special discovery master calls and leaves a message to call them over
[jim_gottstein]: the weekend and then a few hours later you know issues this
[sean]: oh
[jim_gottstein]: order saying to return them and not to further disseminate them and i say how
[jim_gottstein]: do you get to order me about so we're off to the races at that
[jim_gottstein]: point
[sean]: yeah and that's for
[jim_gottstein]: and then
[sean]: the go ahead
[jim_gottstein]: and then and the new york times article breaks that i think it was a
[jim_gottstein]: sunday
[sean]: and that's where the book really picks off and where the movie will pick off
[sean]: to i would really love to see the movie because i'm imagining it's the home
[sean]: alone scene you got your christmas music playing in the background rocket the christmas tree
[sean]: and you're just burned in d v des and mailing them out right before the
[sean]: holidays that would be fascinating to see
[jim_gottstein]: i'm sure it's not really christmas tree but that's the idea
[sean]: um i do have to i worked in the business field and i worked in
[sean]: advertising and often we would rely upon a a text study that would provide us
[sean]: information that would guide us in terms of how we were going to market a
[sean]: product features benefits and then ultimately what would set our product apart from any other
[sean]: so in these papers that you identified was there anything that jumped out to you
[sean]: that ultimately led to this the settlement of the one
[jim_gottstein]: so
[sean]: point four million dollars
[jim_gottstein]: a well i mean there were two parts to it well
[sean]: yeah
[jim_gottstein]: the settlement was not well there were two there was a settlement and all of
[jim_gottstein]: the damage people that sued m and so that was over the damage but then
[jim_gottstein]: the one that you mentioned the one point four billion with the government that was
[jim_gottstein]: over basically illegal promotion
[sean]: hm
[jim_gottstein]: so m doctors can prescribe any drug that's improved for any use doctors can prescribe
[jim_gottstein]: for drugs are a proof for specific uses m but doctors can prescribe for any
[jim_gottstein]: use the drug companies can only promote approved uses and so at that point zyprexa
[jim_gottstein]: had only been improved for um ople diagnosed with skitzofrenia and maybe by polar disorder
[jim_gottstein]: by that time and so but they were marketing it to children and they were
[jim_gottstein]: marketing and this is you know really damaging drug and they were marketing it to
[jim_gottstein]: the elderly basically in nursing homes i mean what happens is you know people don't
[jim_gottstein]: like being in those plexcisalot were they complain and you give them ziprexa and they're
[jim_gottstein]: not able to complain any more they hardly can't even get out of bed and
[jim_gottstein]: then they die and the you know people say oh well you're your mother was
[jim_gottstein]: old
[sean]: so i got a question we
[jim_gottstein]: and i
[sean]: we had recently had the discussion with with patrick on on obedience pills about a
[sean]: d h d medication the medication of children which we all agree you shouldn't really
[sean]: be happening during this per of time when this market was marketed to children i
[sean]: listened to another speech of yours i think you were giving a lecture and you
[sean]: you said at one time uh children would be put into a category and we
[sean]: would never drug them but between like nineteen ninety five and two thousand five there
[sean]: was this dramatic change in the approach what was happening during that time
[jim_gottstein]: well johnson and johnson i mean there was always a d h d and the
[jim_gottstein]: stimulants that as a pretty significant number of children given the stimulants like riddling or
[jim_gottstein]: through terror or whatever at or all it causes them to become manic so then
[jim_gottstein]: they get diagnosed with by polar disorder but there is a psychiatrist at harvard medical
[jim_gottstein]: school that johnson and johnson he o do a study that said risperdall was safe
[jim_gottstein]: and effective for the use in children and so he's been attributed to
[sean]: yeah oh
[jim_gottstein]: the four forty times increase in the diagnosis of by polar disorder in children in
[jim_gottstein]: ten years so and there's i mean that was in a different case that where
[jim_gottstein]: some secret documents got out and there was an email there's all these email exchanges
[jim_gottstein]: between beaterman and johnson and johnson basically where he says i'm going to do this
[jim_gottstein]: study and the result is going to be that rispertall should be used in children
[sean]: but it's interesting at that time so around when you were going through this
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: and the ziprexa papers were released the new york times article and so forth at
[sean]: that time i was in the middle
[jim_gottstein]: oh
[sean]: of my doctoral program and i was at a placement in community mental health center
[sean]: and i remember this sichiatrist telling me that if any of my clients who are
[sean]: prescribed in s s r i exhibit any mania or manic symptoms that would mean
[sean]: that they are by polar and then the next drug that should be placed to
[sean]: some neuroleptic
[jim_gottstein]: to
[sean]: some form of quote quote mood stabilizer which at the time was ziprecice you know
[sean]: a lot and i was almost fell off my chair reading your
[jim_gottstein]: thank
[sean]: book where this was deliberate on part of the marketing teams two push that information
[sean]: without any scientific basis knowing that a side effect of s s r s in
[sean]: a percentage of the population is going to be mania be able to increase the
[sean]: sale of zy prex
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: they hold the physicians many of them primary care physicians who just don't have the
[sean]: background knowledge or time for full examinations they just inform them that this just means
[sean]: their bible or you have to add ziprexa
[jim_gottstein]: yeah and they you know they say oh the and i depressed so called and
[jim_gottstein]: the present unmasked your diet you know by polar disorder and what's i can't think
[jim_gottstein]: of his name there is a psychiatrist in also at harvard you know the anti
[jim_gottstein]: depression is also caused suicideality and you know violence and m and so he did
[jim_gottstein]: this study where you know well he noticed some patients that they became you know
[jim_gottstein]: agitated and violent and so he said lynch stopped the drug and then stopped the
[jim_gottstein]: drug and that that reaction ceased and they said well let's see what happens when
[jim_gottstein]: we started again and they they started the drug again and that you know symptom
[jim_gottstein]: re occur and they stopped it and stopped and so you know there's a side
[jim_gottstein]: that these random is controlled studies are the gold standard but this is called a
[jim_gottstein]: challenge d challenge re challenge and that's really good evidence and as i
[sean]: m
[jim_gottstein]: write in my book they really cook the books on these random ized control trials
[jim_gottstein]: in order to make their drugs look good
[sean]: yeah so the question i have right now is after this settlement happened in was
[sean]: it january of two thousand nine so problem
[jim_gottstein]: think
[sean]: has been solved right
[jim_gottstein]: we uh you know a bunch of states sued lily over the cost of treating
[jim_gottstein]: diabetes and other metabolic problems they had to pay through their medicate programs in alaska
[jim_gottstein]: was one of them and it was the first as to go to trial and
[jim_gottstein]: at that point i thought oolishly that lily was negotiating some kind of settlement with
[jim_gottstein]: me and i and i mentioned to them you know there's still forcing prex on
[jim_gottstein]: people
[sean]: mhm
[jim_gottstein]: and so then they brought it up in a trial so i was kind of
[jim_gottstein]: upset with myself on that but um m you know ziprexa is off patent now
[jim_gottstein]: so lily doesn't really care that much i mean they still saw a lot of
[jim_gottstein]: it um but it's kind of amazing how they come out with his new drug
[jim_gottstein]: that's not really any different or any better and probably not as good if they're
[jim_gottstein]: good at all um and more harmful and they get they get the doctors psychotrists
[jim_gottstein]: and other prebscribers prescribe the latest drugs that haven't really you know nobody has any
[jim_gottstein]: really experience and they cost you know a ton of money much more than the
[jim_gottstein]: older ones they get the doctors to prescribe this stuff
[sean]: jim i got a i got a question and maybe you can answer it for
[sean]: me because sometimes i feel like i live on another planet um you know we
[sean]: have all this information you know i've been seeing a decade like how how the
[sean]: health of clients who who were diagnosed with serious mental health conditions such as by
[sean]: polar or skits of frina how you know just declined dramatically and there they're functioning
[sean]: as really decreased so it's not like we have all this empirical data from strong
[sean]: clinical trials and we certainly don't have the anecdotal evidence or the observational evidence that
[sean]: these drugs are highly effective an don't care what the drug is help me get
[sean]: into the minds of these doctors who keep repeating the same things over and over
[sean]: again and are able to take this information that from farmasutical sales people and then
[sean]: continue to make the same mistake the next drug the next drug what is going
[sean]: on there what's the other side of this
[jim_gottstein]: so you know i showed this to you i mean i don't know if you
[jim_gottstein]: can hear it
[sean]: we can hear
[jim_gottstein]: he is
[sean]: oh
[jim_gottstein]: can you see that is that backwards
[sean]: no we can
[jim_gottstein]: anyway
[sean]: see it it's it's lucy you're holding up a shirt of lucy from the peanuts
[sean]: psychiatric help the doctor was
[jim_gottstein]: fold are complacent
[sean]: fooled or complacent
[jim_gottstein]: oh
[sean]: for our listeners that can't
[jim_gottstein]: and
[sean]: speak
[jim_gottstein]: and and i haven't you know i try not to attribute bad motives to people
[jim_gottstein]: and you know it seems like these people want to help so you know maybe
[jim_gottstein]: they're full but at this point the evidence is just overwhelming about how harmful these
[jim_gottstein]: drugs are how counter productive they are i mean there's m it's pretty clear that
[jim_gottstein]: people that present with a first time psychosis if you take the different approach like
[jim_gottstein]: the soteria approach or open dialogue approach that you can get and really avoid the
[jim_gottstein]: use of neuroleptics if at all possible you can get an eighty per cent recovery
[jim_gottstein]: rate okay we have a five percent recovery rate and and i rely heavily on
[jim_gottstein]: robert whittaker's work and he m and one of one of the grass he has
[jim_gottstein]: is at the rate of disability on a per capita basis because of mental illness
[jim_gottstein]: where mental illness is you know attributed as the cause of disability has gone up
[jim_gottstein]: eight times since the introduction of the so called miracle drug thorizine in the midnighteen
[jim_gottstein]: fifties
[sean]: ah
[jim_gottstein]: and so we have this evidence and then there's it's there's this studied by harold
[jim_gottstein]: and job that that shows that people who have been on the neuralyptics for a
[jim_gottstein]: while and then get off of them have a forty percent chance of recovering so
[jim_gottstein]: that's eight times better than the five per cent it's half of what what it
[jim_gottstein]: would be if we avoided him in the first place and m know so why
[jim_gottstein]: is this allowed to happen i mean i think you know you just have to
[jim_gottstein]: say it's the money um you know there's just so much money and but why
[jim_gottstein]: the doctors go along with it
[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't know i mean it's you could say it's kind of a
[jim_gottstein]: massed illusion i mean like you know i mentioned dr grace jackson and she was
[jim_gottstein]: a navy sychactrist paths and she'd been trained the way they all have m and
[jim_gottstein]: she was treating patients and she saw that they weren't wasn't helping you so then
[jim_gottstein]: she looked into it and you know and discovered the truth about it and so
[jim_gottstein]: she she refused to do it what she got drummed out of the navy almost
[jim_gottstein]: lost her license to practice law and i think she had defiled bankruptcy at one
[jim_gottstein]: point and so one other little anecdote so after i read matt in american two
[jim_gottstein]: thousand two i brought i actually brought bob whittaker robert whitaker up to alaska and
[jim_gottstein]: one of these things i got him to do go have a talk at the
[jim_gottstein]: alaska psychiatric institute you know they had psychiatrists and other staff members an even psychitist
[jim_gottstein]: from the community come in and he gave his talk and i would say the
[jim_gottstein]: kind of feeling in the room was well even if we agree with what you
[jim_gottstein]: say and we kind of do we wouldn't be allowed to do what you suggest
[sean]: oh
[jim_gottstein]: and so it's not the way doctors are supposed to be but that's the way
[jim_gottstein]: they are i mean society has this idea you know that they need to drug
[jim_gottstein]: these people to keep them from getting killed in there you know when they're sleep
[jim_gottstein]: when the truth is when you look at all these mass shootings i mean everybody
[jim_gottstein]: wants to blame mental is we need to do more mental health treatment at virtually
[jim_gottstein]: all of them we're on psyche drugs and often the anidepressens you know it's not
[jim_gottstein]: a large number of people that are that become violent um m when you have
[jim_gottstein]: tens of millions of people on them a small a small number who you know
[jim_gottstein]: become homicidal results in what we're seeing
[sean]: yeah jim i think this podcast episode is so important because history matters and so
[sean]: we're sitting here nd we're in twenty twenty two all this happened you know around
[sean]: two thousand six two thousand seven you know was in the the national media it
[sean]: was something that was certainly part of our discourse but here we are
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: in twenty twenty two and there's still people being prescribed ziprexaand patients and families they
[sean]: do not receive informed consent i'm just goin t give you a quick
[jim_gottstein]: oh
[sean]: story because i got permission from a client who i just previously conducted in evaluation
[sean]: on and these type of situations are all too familiar started episode started with having
[sean]: covid post covid had about thirteen days straight of a horrible migraine and this particular
[sean]: person was placed on daily steroids i v steroids with a side effect
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: of that being mania so she was getting ivystheroids going in to hospitals days after
[sean]: days also taking some oral steroids and additionally was smoking marawana throughout today to try
[sean]: to alleviate the pain and then she went into a manic episode and the manic
[sean]: episode was severe and it required it required hospitalization and she was told she has
[sean]: by pole or one disorder it's in a manic episode and was prescribed iprexo amongst
[sean]: other drugs so it's usually not just one drug someone's prescribed it's multiple and it's
[sean]: the interaction between the drugs it's providing a la able without addressing the
[jim_gottstein]: a
[sean]: cause so it's very clear that there's a high percentage of people that are prone
[sean]: to going into manic episodes from being that steroid but yet she's now labelled with
[sean]: by polar one disorder and it's an illness that she has to manage for the
[sean]: rest of
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: her life and she's going to be placed on a drug a drug that creates
[sean]: metabolic cyndrum a significant side effects and then you're interacting it with other drugs that
[sean]: haven't been adequately studied she's labelled with a with a psychiatric diagnosis you can't test
[sean]: for it's really the opinion of a psychiatrist which was a sidin't at the time
[sean]: and she just feels absolutely horrible and people don't have this information they assume these
[sean]: psychiatric diagnosis are valid they're reliable in what we have we have safe and effective
[sean]: drugs to treat them and that's how
[jim_gottstein]: i
[sean]: the doctors communicate
[jim_gottstein]: they don't they don't tell i mean each drug comes with what's called a label
[jim_gottstein]: which has now all these information on the drugs and for example ziprexyouknow we'll say
[jim_gottstein]: you know we'll have that on there and i one and the drug companies really
[jim_gottstein]: negotiate with the f d a to try and minimize you know the negative aspects
[jim_gottstein]: of that in one of my cross examinations of doctrine a bill bigger cases i
[jim_gottstein]: asked him about well doesn't it say here that direct it causes or whatever drug
[jim_gottstein]: it was is probably rispidoff causes psychosis it says that right on the label that
[jim_gottstein]: respertall causes psychosis it's supposed to be the treatment for psychosis but it causes it
[jim_gottstein]: and so he says oh you know that's the lawyers just made them do that
[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't
[sean]: m
[jim_gottstein]: pay any attention to that
[sean]: yeah
[jim_gottstein]: and now and it's like dr joanna montre just came out with us study that
[jim_gottstein]: the andssriande presence that there's well that there's no evidence that the pressure is caused
[jim_gottstein]: by chemical unbalance and the thing about that you know it got a lot of
[jim_gottstein]: play i mean national media and so it's like oh now this is out there
[jim_gottstein]: and but we've known about that for twenty years the m and d ronald pies
[jim_gottstein]: who was the head of the american psychiatric association as we never told people there
[jim_gottstein]: was a chemical in balance well i heard someone last week who was told that
[jim_gottstein]: they had a chemical in balance so m yeh i mean it's so important for
[jim_gottstein]: the public to know this stuff and it's so hard to get them to know
[jim_gottstein]: it and that's you know why i wrote you know the book is you know
[jim_gottstein]: i i think it could be impactful if i if it got enough m you
[jim_gottstein]: play in the in the general public which it hasn't really
[sean]: so jim when it comes to protecting the public since you brought up the f
[sean]: d a isn't the f d a there to protect the safety and welfare of
[sean]: the public
[jim_gottstein]: i think it's fair to say that the f d is captured by the industry
[jim_gottstein]: i mean there's this revolving door between the f d a and farmer cuitical companies
[jim_gottstein]: um m i think it was in nineteen ninety two sometimes in the nineteen nineties
[jim_gottstein]: congress changed the way the f d a was financed so basically the f d
[jim_gottstein]: is financed by the drug companies
[sean]: ah
[jim_gottstein]: so the fat charges drug companies you know for the approval of their drugs so
[jim_gottstein]: the drug company s paid for the approval of of their drugs and they get
[jim_gottstein]: the approval of their drugs i mean um m
[sean]: so jim
[jim_gottstein]: that is not rely
[sean]: i've got a
[jim_gottstein]: on
[sean]: question
[jim_gottstein]: the f d a
[sean]: jim do you recall what happened the very same day that the one point four
[sean]: billion dollar fetal federal settlement regarding zaprexo was announced with the f d a d
[sean]: you remember what happened that same day
[jim_gottstein]: tell
[sean]: i'll
[jim_gottstein]: me
[sean]: read it to you because i found this most interesting is on that very same
[sean]: day the f d a issued guidance permitting farmersutical companies to buy past the prohibition
[sean]: of marketing off lay uses of drugs allowing them to pass out medical journal articles
[sean]: that discussed these non approved uses so that was their way around marketing it was
[sean]: to have medical journals do the work for them and have it distributed to
[jim_gottstein]: that
[sean]: the doctors
[jim_gottstein]: and that's another scandal is the whole medical research literature a very large percentage oh
[jim_gottstein]: medical journal articles are ghost written by the drug companies and course the trials are
[jim_gottstein]: all paid by the drug companies
[sean]: yeah
[jim_gottstein]: used to be universities would conduct you know these drug tries not any more they
[jim_gottstein]: have what they call contract research organizations do these studies and you know if you
[jim_gottstein]: want to get the next contract you know this contract better come out with the
[jim_gottstein]: result that the drug company wants and m and then they pay these key opinion
[jim_gottstein]: leaders put their name on the articles and they don't even allow these so called
[jim_gottstein]: authors access to the data
[sean]: hm
[jim_gottstein]: i mean fundamentally i don't think health care should be a profit driven enterprise because
[jim_gottstein]: it brings in all this stuff its corruption
[sean]: yeah so unfortunate the way that i started to think about things as we have
[sean]: to educate the next generation and for us here out of practice we develop some
[sean]: guidelines around the actual safety and efficacy of antidepressence because they're just astronomical the rise
[sean]: and anti depressing that are just being handed out to developing teen agers and young
[sean]: people despite all the risks it's almost like as as if it's candy you know
[sean]: it as it has no risks and these parents are actually you know scared to
[sean]: not except the medical recommendations or the medical advice of their practitioners so we have
[sean]: this we have this system of an expert culture here in the united states where
[sean]: we rely so much on on doctors opinions the doctors have become nothing more than
[sean]: legalized drug dealers in our in our health care systems and this has to be
[sean]: a grass roots effort where we can just be able to openly discuss scientific findings
[sean]: and risks and benefits and that's what is most concerning about where we are in
[sean]: the united states culture
[jim_gottstein]: that
[sean]: is there's a there's a limitation that's really placed on our ability to freely have
[sean]: these conversations and there's where its like misinformation being thrown out or conspiracy theory this
[sean]: feels like a reasonable
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: conversation based on actual evidence but if you engage in with the greater public through
[sean]: social media or you talk to just people and your your friend group or you
[sean]: know that you saw alive with they kind of look at you like you're like
[sean]: you're crazy by talking about this my brother is right here we've had so many
[sean]: early podcasts he thought a lot of the things that i was talking about regarding
[sean]: the impact of the farmsutical industry and how we think of what is
[jim_gottstein]: do
[sean]: safe and what is healthy you thought i was crazy i was making most of
[sean]: it up i mean i still tink you're crazy about a lot of things but
[sean]: i believe these to be accurate nowyeahand so the question is dedicated your our adult
[sean]: life to this gym you know through your our advocacy through the law project for
[sean]: psychiatric rights how do we begin to make changes obviously needs to be a grass
[sean]: roots effort that requires you know so many stay holders to be able to have
[sean]: open dialogue and conversations but parmasutical industry is powerful so powerful how do we even
[sean]: begin to make changes and get this information out
[jim_gottstein]: so no i mean that's something that i've tried to work out for twenty years
[jim_gottstein]: and i you know i don't know if you watch the video there's a video
[jim_gottstein]: where i talk about um m now how i see changing the system the mental
[jim_gottstein]: health system or i call the illness system and of course the most important thing
[jim_gottstein]: is changing public attitudes and how do you break through i mean i remember when
[jim_gottstein]: they first said we got it we got to stop trump on twitter and as
[jim_gottstein]: much as you know you know trump is you know so totally bad news to
[jim_gottstein]: me it was like you know this is a slippery slope and i'm not a
[jim_gottstein]: slippery slope kind of guy i mean normally when people make that argument yeah but
[jim_gottstein]: this one has proven to be true and there's so much censorship going on now
[jim_gottstein]: i mean i've got these videos on you tube and i started to get concerned
[jim_gottstein]: that they'll be taken down at some point i mean alex berenson is a perfect
[jim_gottstein]: example um and there are all these other people if you don't these days if
[jim_gottstein]: you don't go along with you know the authorities and you know then you're doing
[jim_gottstein]: miss information and you should be stopped rum discussion it's like now you know nobody
[jim_gottstein]: believes in the first amendment anymore and that's not the way you know to deal
[jim_gottstein]: with this stuff and i wish i had an answer now i have a policy
[jim_gottstein]: and i for twenty years of accepting every speaking invitation that i can you know
[jim_gottstein]: i'm pretty open about my stuff and i write stuff and you know in a
[jim_gottstein]: lot of ways the internet you know is kind of an equalizer i mean i
[jim_gottstein]: put stuff out and people find it but not enough people i can't say anything
[jim_gottstein]: i've done is gone quote viral and i i i don't have a good answer
[jim_gottstein]: for that other than i don't really i mean i do what i can and
[jim_gottstein]: but i wouldn't say it's been successful and in a lot of ways i think
[jim_gottstein]: things are getting worse
[sean]: jim and we'll do what we can to in terms of sharing links to purchase
[sean]: your book through amazon and also directing our listeners to go to your website your
[sean]: law project for psychiatric rights a a psyche writes um uh is it psycerites dot
[sean]: com
[jim_gottstein]: pyrites dot org
[sean]: dot or okay thank you for correcting me pycherites dot or anybody listening go down
[sean]: to the show summary there's direct links there i did go to that destination i
[sean]: found a lot of your lectures and your your interviews there's a lot of of
[sean]: content there for anybody who wants to to hear some of your speaking engagements and
[sean]: a bunch of other people as well so it's it's right for information one of
[sean]: the things that i want add i mean there's been a new law that was
[sean]: passed in i think it was california as it passed already think it's i think
[sean]: it's a proposal a proposal because i've seen some push back from doctors good and
[sean]: and the specifics around that were you know it gives the state of california authority
[sean]: to remove the license of a medical professional if they believe there spreading misinformation and
[sean]: that's obviously extremely extremely concerning because one of the things that we know is what
[sean]: is believed to be established scientific fact at any given tie i'm certainly could be
[sean]: nothing more
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
[sean]: than just propaganda and i think when where i look at it is like right
[sean]: now people still accept the efficacy of the chemical balance theory and that the anti
[sean]: depressence work and they work by correcting and underlying chemical and balance and so that
[sean]: people believe that's established science ten you could lose your license for having conversations just
[sean]: like this and science is a process it's an open process that includes free speech
[sean]: and the ability to examine data makes sense of it create new studies it's constantly
[sean]: evolving and that's what i think makes a free society is your ability to be
[sean]: able to continue to test evelop hypothesis gather information and really respect everyone's individual rights
[sean]: so for our listeners in california that is a b two zero nine eight and
[sean]: i believe gavin newsom has three weeks to sign the bill but he has yet
[sean]: to take a public position on it and i think that was as of yesterday
[sean]: which would be august dangerous first
[jim_gottstein]: really dangerous
[sean]: all right so we really took a lot of your time jim before we conclude
[sean]: right now are you hanging out there on the island of maui you partially retired
[sean]: at this this stage in the game
[jim_gottstein]: so pretty much i think i did my last litigation h a week or so
[jim_gottstein]: ago but i'm although there's one type of case that i would come out of
[jim_gottstein]: retirement to do which is a medicated fraud case against the psychiatric drugging of children
[jim_gottstein]: in youth and there's information about that on pychridestrata we could talk about it um
[jim_gottstein]: m but i think that's potentially he most effective way to stop the drugging of
[jim_gottstein]: children but other than that i think i'm done with litigation but i'm really involved
[jim_gottstein]: in trying to m bring about alternatives to the current paradime and so there was
[jim_gottstein]: this last october the five october last last year it was this international pure respite
[jim_gottstein]: and soteria summit where seven hundred and fifty people from forty countries came together over
[jim_gottstein]: you know zoomicors and had really great presentations and discussion about these alternative you know
[jim_gottstein]: the ones why i'm talking about that get eighty per cent recovery rates things like
[jim_gottstein]: that and and i've gotten really involved on kind of the you know trying to
[jim_gottstein]: designated the person to try and do it to create more of these pure respites
[jim_gottstein]: and soteriahouses around the world to get people people have those choices and as a
[jim_gottstein]: legal matter people have the right to the least restrictive in terms of psychiatric imprisonment
[jim_gottstein]: and the least intrusive alternative with respect for drugging m so it's really important to
[jim_gottstein]: have these alternatives available so i'm i'm working really hard on that and i'm on
[jim_gottstein]: the board of for about a year and a little over mind freedom international and
[jim_gottstein]: there actually heading this summit thing but they also have this program called the mind
[jim_gottstein]: freedom shield when people are being faced or threatened with psychiatric imprisonment or for drugging
[jim_gottstein]: they can ask for this alert to go out and have people really come together
[jim_gottstein]: and put pressure to try and get that stopped and it's hard now some success
[jim_gottstein]: is not always successful but i really support that effort and so i am on
[jim_gottstein]: may i'm not on vacation
[sean]: this is a human rights issue so for all listeners out there jim got stein
[sean]: has been a powerful force in being able to protect the rights of those who
[sean]: have been identified as psycheatrically or medically ill but more and more importantly he's taken
[sean]: his own personal risks to be able to share information to be able to protect
[sean]: the public and i think that's where we're at as a radically genuine podcast and
[sean]: trying to support a movement where there is open dialogue and there's discussion where people
[sean]: can make the best informed decisions for their own health regardless of whether it's psychiatric
[sean]: drugs i mean we've talked about this shown with with the covid response and mandation
[sean]: of vaccines and so forth it really is a human rights issue so on a
[sean]: podcast that wants to have these radically genuine conversations you know were deeply appreciative for
[sean]: having god stein as a guest jim thank you so much for joining the radically
[sean]: genuine podcast