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[sean]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast i'm
dr roger mc phelan all fans out there

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[sean]: take a step back at your phone
find five stars an apple and give us

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[sean]: a rating you're not a fan of
the podcast don't hit anythingyou can email us

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[sean]: give us some feedback you can email
us through our website w w w rad

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[sean]: gen pod dot com that's it some
interesting news recently alex berenson is back on

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[sean]: twitter shan have you been following eric
alex barrinson over the yeah i'm aware of

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[sean]: how he got kicked off twitter

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[jim_gottstein]: to

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[sean]: and the story behind it and a
lot of the things he was sharing during

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[sean]: the the covid crisis and and why
he got kicked off so yeah there was

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[sean]: interest there and i was recently listening
to another of my my daily podcasts and

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[sean]: i heard them speaking about the situation
and what the latest is it's interesting once

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[sean]: you go yeah alex berenson is somebody
that i was following on twitter for some

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[sean]: information regarding the efficacy of vaccines with
covid and one of the things that was

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[sean]: i think special about alex berenson was
his history as a new york times columnist

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[sean]: and personally you know at that time
as many of our listeners know i was

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[sean]: knee deep in a lot of the
literature on safety and efficacies of anti depressence

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[sean]: because we were creating some position statements
here for our practice and once i've learned

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[sean]: about how these drugs came to market
some of the fraud the problems within the

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[sean]: clinical trials how they were marketed i
was obviously very skeptical about vaccines for a

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[sean]: novel virus in a short amount of
time so ultimately i think that what drew

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[sean]: me to alex berenson was somebody else
who was a skeptic and wanted to approach

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[sean]: putting anything into our bodies with some
healthy degree of skepticism and challenging authority and

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[sean]: so he recently was brought back on
to twitter he was kicked off for quote

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[sean]: quote spreading misinformation about the efficacy or
the safety of ovid vaccines he has since

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[sean]: been vindicated as a lot of the
data now comes in and just as sometimes

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[sean]: the universe allows us to be connected
to people that our outside of our normal

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[sean]: day to day it was funny that
i got an email from our our guest

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[sean]: today and our guest is an attorney
and he's an advocate for people diagnosed with

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[sean]: serious mental illness but jim got steen
is most famously known for sapiniapining and release

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[sean]: in the ziprexa papers in late two

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[jim_gottstein]: yes

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[sean]: thousand and six resulting in a series
of new york times articles and an editorial

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[sean]: which calling for congressional investigation into the
safety of the drug you know who wrote

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[sean]: that article alex berenson alex berenson so
you know that alex barrison was somebody who

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[sean]: was a skeptic because he intimate knowledge
of the pharmasutical industries practices yeah right so

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[sean]: in two thousand in january two thousand
and nine elie lily who was the pharmasutical

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[sean]: company that manufactured the drugs i prex
pled guilty and agreed to pay one point

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[sean]: four billion in civil and criminal finds
for the activities that were revealed in the

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[sean]: ziprexa papers um in twenty twenty jim
our guest published his book the siprexa papers

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[sean]: giving a first hand account of what
really happened including his battles with the powerful

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[sean]: legal teams that represent eli lily and
also his work on behalf of a psychiatric

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[sean]: patient by the name of bill bigley
um who's really made this ordeal possible to

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[sean]: capena this information and expose the sideprexa
papers i think it's safe to say it

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[sean]: was a heroic act on his part
and saved tens of thousands of lives while

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[sean]: placing himself at risk for criminal prosecution
he found the law project for psychiatric rights

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[sean]: and we actually extremely honoured today to
to have him in radically conversation have a

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[sean]: radically genuine conversation jim welcome to the
podcast

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[jim_gottstein]: hank you very much i'm pleased to
be here a year very flattering i might

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[jim_gottstein]: just mention that i tried to get
alex to read my book from before it

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[jim_gottstein]: was published and he said he's too
busy saving the world

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[sean]: yeah

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[jim_gottstein]: which you know

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[sean]: my

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[jim_gottstein]: so anyway yeah that's an interesting convergence
there

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[sean]: yeah alex is doing great work i'm
a big fan of his and i think

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[sean]: it's coming from a place of just
being very conscious of the harms that can

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[sean]: be created by farmasuticles and really believing
and informed consent and respecting india everyone's individual

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[sean]: rights to make choices or decisions in
the best interest of their own health their

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[sean]: own body and their welfare which brings
me to an opening quit and a lot

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[sean]: of our listeners might not understand your
background but could you tell us really how

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[jim_gottstein]: i

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[sean]: you got involved in such a passionate
way in psychiatric legal advocacy

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[jim_gottstein]: well

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[sean]: yeah

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[jim_gottstein]: in nineteen eighty two when i was
twenty nine i got into a situation where

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[jim_gottstein]: i didn't get sleep um and basically
they call it icottic but i went crazy

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[jim_gottstein]: and i subsequently learned anybody who doesn't
sleep for long enough well we'll basically lose

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[jim_gottstein]: it and i don't have a particularly
high tolerance for lack of sleep and so

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[jim_gottstein]: you know i've been pretty successful before
that and i had no idea that my

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[jim_gottstein]: mind could you know become unreliable but
anyway it did um m and it was

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[jim_gottstein]: in june june and anchor alaska and
i had gone to my dad's house to

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[jim_gottstein]: try and get some sleep over there
and i just fallen asleep when i mean

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[jim_gottstein]: i think for like a second which
is something that you know i've experienced when

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[jim_gottstein]: i come out of what you know
what's called manic episodes before but anyway i

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[jim_gottstein]: just fall asleep and i woke up
and i heard the devil coming down the

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[jim_gottstein]: hall so

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[sean]: it was

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[jim_gottstein]: i was on the second floor and
i went over to the window and i

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[jim_gottstein]: looked down and there was lawn down
there in the sidewalk and and i knew

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[jim_gottstein]: how to do a parachute landing fall
so i i thought well if i missed

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[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i'll be okay i was
in my underwear it was one in the

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[jim_gottstein]: morning and it was light because it
was june so i jumped out i missed

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[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i did a perfect parshoot
landing fall and i didn't hurt myself but

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[jim_gottstein]: i got grabbed and hauled into the
hospital in a straight jacket um m and

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[jim_gottstein]: so they shot me up with something
that ut me to sleep and so i

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[jim_gottstein]: wake up and it's bad and there's
this attendant at the foot of the bed

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[jim_gottstein]: with a clip board he asked me
what day is it and so i say

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[jim_gottstein]: i ask him how long have i
been asleep so he writes down that i

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[jim_gottstein]: don't know what day it is and

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[sean]: m

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[jim_gottstein]: that's kind of the way it went
and they um m people that believed that

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[jim_gottstein]: i that i was a lawyer said
that i would never be able to practice

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[jim_gottstein]: law again and and when i told
him i'd gone to harvard law school uh

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[jim_gottstein]: that confirmed that i was delusional cause

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[sean]: m

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[jim_gottstein]: all that stuff is verifiable anyway i
locked it they said that i would you

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[jim_gottstein]: know have to be on these drugs
for the rest of my life i was

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[jim_gottstein]: put on mellarel i said i don't
want thorazine and they said oh this is

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[jim_gottstein]: meller it's nothing like thorazine course it's
exactly like thorazine and but i really looked

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[jim_gottstein]: into a psychiatrist who said that i
just gotten into a situation where i didn't

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[jim_gottstein]: get sleep that i could learn to
deal with that and get on with my

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[jim_gottstein]: life and so i feel like i
was extremely lucky to have escaped a career

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[jim_gottstein]: as a mental patient for the rest
of my life and and that really changed

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[jim_gottstein]: changed a lot of you know the
way i thought about the world but so

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[jim_gottstein]: that's really what triggered my um psychiatric
um advocacy although i had actually was in

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[jim_gottstein]: the middle of doing this law suit
against the state of alasca for stealing a

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[jim_gottstein]: million acres of land it had been
granted to alaska's mental health program and trust

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[jim_gottstein]: m in any event so that's what
did it and then when i read matt

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[jim_gottstein]: in america by robert whittaker in two
thousand two um m to me it was

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[jim_gottstein]: a litigation road map on how the
challenge forced drugging not simply based on people's

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[jim_gottstein]: you know human rites and inform consent
say but that when you're being for struck

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[jim_gottstein]: you don't get any you now any
consent your consent is taken away from you

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[jim_gottstein]: and but based on the idea that
it was it's not in people's best interest

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[jim_gottstein]: so i contacted him i got him
to send me all all the research that

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[jim_gottstein]: he cited and it's on pychrites dot
or the law project for psychiatric right website

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[jim_gottstein]: all of the actual studies that he
cited in mat in america and so that's

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[jim_gottstein]: i had pretty much known what the
story was with the drugs before but i

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[jim_gottstein]: didn't think i had had anything particular
to contribute to the effort against the four

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[jim_gottstein]: struggling but with reading that in america
i felt that i did

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[sean]: so you mentioned that i mean the
way that you view it is that you

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[sean]: got lucky

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[jim_gottstein]: m

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[sean]: and

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[jim_gottstein]: my

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[sean]: that's sad for me to hear because
when we're talking about a health

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[jim_gottstein]: hm

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[sean]: care profession we shouldn't look at things
in terms of being lucky to get somebody

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[sean]: he was actually ethical

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[jim_gottstein]: m

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[sean]: and scientific so bottom line here is
that you were sleep deprived and exhibiting symptoms

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[sean]: associated with sleep

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[jim_gottstein]: yeah

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[sean]: deprivation you were when you were admitted
into the impatient hospital exact symptoms that you

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[sean]: were presenting with were labeled as a
mental illness and and that mental less itself

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[sean]: will require a certain drug for the
rest of your life and you're labeled as

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[sean]: mentally ill and if you're mentally ill
well then you're disabled and you're unable then

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[sean]: to produce in society or re engage
in your profession as you up to that

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[sean]: point we're able to successfully do

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[jim_gottstein]: right and that's what happens to the
vast majority of people that get get hauled

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[jim_gottstein]: in to the system as they their
lives are ruined and in fact that's what

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[jim_gottstein]: happened to bill bigley and as i
write in my book he he was two

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[jim_gottstein]: months older than me and he got
hauled into a p the alaska psychiatric institute

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[jim_gottstein]: two years before i was and he
was just slammed with hal do m he

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[jim_gottstein]: didn't have my you know social privileges
he was a little tiny alaska native but

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[jim_gottstein]: his his psychiatrist at the hospital was
the same as the one that saved my

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[jim_gottstein]: life his name was robert albert and
he was really an incredible guy and the

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[jim_gottstein]: discharge notes on on that first admission
was that his prognosis was guarded depending on

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[jim_gottstein]: how he was helped to deal with
this divorce that he had and is now

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[jim_gottstein]: losing his dog ers and being saddled
with support payments he couldn't handle which is

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[jim_gottstein]: what really brought him in and of
course he wasn't given any help with that

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[jim_gottstein]: he was co operative and took the
drugs m and he was discharged came back

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[jim_gottstein]: i think the third time he started
refusing and so then they started forcing him

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[jim_gottstein]: and by the time i met him
in you know in early december two thousand

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[jim_gottstein]: six he'd been hospital it's over about
seventy times and his life had just been

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[jim_gottstein]: ruined and you know i think they're
for the grace of god go frankly

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[sean]: m

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[jim_gottstein]: anyone really

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[sean]: so jim i got a question when
you were in two thousand two when you

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[sean]: had that lack of sleep what what
law were you practicing

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[jim_gottstein]: night

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[sean]: at the time

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[jim_gottstein]: in age

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[sean]: i'm sorry what law were you focused
on at that time

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[jim_gottstein]: it was basically business law my

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[sean]: okay

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[jim_gottstein]: family business law basically

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[sean]: it so

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[jim_gottstein]: i had yeah

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[sean]: yeah

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[jim_gottstein]: and i actually was doing this middle
health trust case but i had to give

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[jim_gottstein]: it up at the time

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[sean]: yeah so it's interesting this profound experience
that could have went you know a different

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[sean]: direction and really negatively impacted your life
actually inspires you to go down a path

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[sean]: and dedicate your career to advocate for
those who are would be placed in similar

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[sean]: positions now the books i press the
papers is a fascinating account of a lot

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[sean]: of details around the legal system the
power of big farm and how we as

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[sean]: individuals consumers our best interests are not
always taken into account united states legal and

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[sean]: health care system now i really do
suggest that if you are listening to the

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[sean]: podcast you get the book because you're
going to you know you're gonna get lost

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[sean]: into it like i got lost into
some of the details i learned so much

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[sean]: about the legal process the law i
think well was so riveting for me jim

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[sean]: was your know your thought process each
step of the way and what led to

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[sean]: your decision making me as a psychologist
just fascinating about some of the moral dilemmas

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[sean]: that were presented but for our listeners
ould you just kind of briefly tell us

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[sean]: how you received the theziprexo papers

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[jim_gottstein]: you bet so it was i think
november twenty eighth two thousand six and i

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[jim_gottstein]: got this call out of the blue
from this dr david eagle man who is

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[jim_gottstein]: an expert witness in this massive litigation
over zyprixicausing diabetes and other metabolic problems he

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[jim_gottstein]: had access to what's called discovery which
in litigation where the parties have to exchange

191
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[jim_gottstein]: information and that that discovery was placed
under a secrecy order that provided that if

192
00:16:10,496 --> 00:16:17,229
[jim_gottstein]: he was supine in from in another
case he had to give eli little notice

193
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:24,396
[jim_gottstein]: and a reasonable opportunity to object before
he complied with the sabina so he um

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[jim_gottstein]: and he was already working with alex
barrenson at the new york times and so

195
00:16:30,087 --> 00:16:36,011
[jim_gottstein]: and alex had found this report that
was posted on our website by dr grace

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00:16:36,071 --> 00:16:45,059
[jim_gottstein]: jackson on zyprexa that i had submitted
as in a case faith myers case which

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[jim_gottstein]: is as its own interesting story but
it's called lands open which is the chemical

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00:16:55,263 --> 00:17:01,754
[jim_gottstein]: name for zyprix dubious danger drug dubious
efficacy or something like that so anyway alex

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00:17:01,994 --> 00:17:06,829
[jim_gottstein]: found it he told dr eagle man
well maybe you should call this gaston guy

200
00:17:06,970 --> 00:17:14,712
[jim_gottstein]: and see if helsopinayou and so when
he finally got around and telling me that's

201
00:17:14,772 --> 00:17:21,008
[jim_gottstein]: what he was about i said yeah
you know i'd be happy to do it

202
00:17:21,108 --> 00:17:25,154
[jim_gottstein]: and i had my own reasons for
doing it and he had his reasons for

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00:17:25,234 --> 00:17:29,770
[jim_gottstein]: doing it and so i had to
go look for a case and that's where

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00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:33,794
[jim_gottstein]: i because you can't you can't just
a pin something you've got to have a

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00:17:33,874 --> 00:17:38,970
[jim_gottstein]: case to do it so i went
looking for bill and that's that was the

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00:17:39,010 --> 00:17:46,909
[jim_gottstein]: whole story in itself because in alaska
they really keep these m proceedings to if

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[jim_gottstein]: we're going to be radically genuine

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00:17:49,831 --> 00:17:49,851
[sean]: m

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00:17:51,286 --> 00:17:56,238
[jim_gottstein]: yea i mean psychiatrically imprison people i
mean that's really what the involuntary commitment is

210
00:17:56,839 --> 00:18:02,933
[jim_gottstein]: and but they keep them really secret
even though the statute says that the person

211
00:18:04,507 --> 00:18:09,856
[jim_gottstein]: that the hearing show be open or
closed to the public as the respondent just

212
00:18:09,936 --> 00:18:15,042
[jim_gottstein]: a person being accused of being male
shallow left but they never told the person

213
00:18:15,123 --> 00:18:20,074
[jim_gottstein]: and there was never any case that
had been public before i started taking these

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00:18:20,134 --> 00:18:29,123
[jim_gottstein]: cases anyway so i found bill and
i was accused of ambulance jason that but

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00:18:29,503 --> 00:18:30,324
[jim_gottstein]: anyway so

216
00:18:31,344 --> 00:18:32,072
[sean]: can i stop you there

217
00:18:32,056 --> 00:18:32,318
[jim_gottstein]: so we

218
00:18:33,980 --> 00:18:37,886
[sean]: so m i will stop you here
and there because there's just like interesting parts

219
00:18:37,906 --> 00:18:40,771
[sean]: of the story i want to make
sure audience gets this you know at this

220
00:18:41,252 --> 00:18:47,391
[sean]: time are you're you're looking for a
case in order for you to legally obtain

221
00:18:47,532 --> 00:18:50,438
[sean]: the these papers and then to try
to protect the public

222
00:18:52,286 --> 00:18:52,573
[jim_gottstein]: correct

223
00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:54,747
[sean]: okay um for for

224
00:18:54,656 --> 00:18:54,797
[jim_gottstein]: right

225
00:18:54,807 --> 00:18:56,917
[sean]: our audience what is tiprexa

226
00:18:59,267 --> 00:19:07,828
[jim_gottstein]: so ziprexa i mean it's marketed as
a quote a typical anticycotic but i don't

227
00:19:07,889 --> 00:19:11,257
[jim_gottstein]: like to use that term i use
the term neurolyptic which was one of the

228
00:19:11,317 --> 00:19:20,100
[jim_gottstein]: original terms which means seize the brand
which is what it does and basically it

229
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,349
[jim_gottstein]: blocked seventy to ninety per cent of
the dopamine in the front lobe and the

230
00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:29,608
[jim_gottstein]: bays of ganglia and the lymbic system
and so i used to think i think

231
00:19:29,668 --> 00:19:33,973
[jim_gottstein]: of them as chemical straight jackets before
i knew more about it but actually their

232
00:19:34,093 --> 00:19:42,707
[jim_gottstein]: chemical lebotomies because they block the transmission
dopmene in the front of low so i

233
00:19:42,767 --> 00:19:48,194
[jim_gottstein]: could go a little bit more on
what happens which but basically the response of

234
00:19:48,234 --> 00:19:54,833
[jim_gottstein]: the brain to that is because the
blockage is to pump out more dopamean for

235
00:19:54,873 --> 00:20:01,249
[jim_gottstein]: a few weeks and then the brain
will grow more dopamen receptors so where they've

236
00:20:01,349 --> 00:20:07,255
[jim_gottstein]: never found any kind of brain abnormality
and people diagnose which getsafrenia or any other

237
00:20:08,096 --> 00:20:16,408
[jim_gottstein]: you know actual you know what uh
described as a quote mental illness once these

238
00:20:16,468 --> 00:20:22,999
[jim_gottstein]: drugs have been introduced then you do
see brain changes and then if someone quits

239
00:20:23,099 --> 00:20:29,490
[jim_gottstein]: the drug especially abruptly you have this
flood of dope a meat causes symptoms which

240
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:34,638
[jim_gottstein]: then you know the psychiatrist says see
your mental illness is coming back when actually

241
00:20:34,999 --> 00:20:38,285
[jim_gottstein]: it's the withdrawal from the drug

242
00:20:39,290 --> 00:20:43,083
[sean]: okay so you know at this time
you're you're very educated already at the danger

243
00:20:43,424 --> 00:20:49,373
[sean]: dangers of these drugs but in order
for you to obtain some of this information

244
00:20:49,413 --> 00:20:54,337
[sean]: that's under a protective privacy order you
have to sapin these papers for a case

245
00:20:54,397 --> 00:20:56,039
[sean]: that you're on which you don't have
at this point

246
00:20:58,446 --> 00:21:07,603
[jim_gottstein]: right so i you know i talked
to bill and i knew that zyprexa was

247
00:21:10,312 --> 00:21:18,678
[jim_gottstein]: use pretty extensively at the hospital at
that time and i asked him you know

248
00:21:18,979 --> 00:21:22,882
[jim_gottstein]: you know you on you know been
given ziprexa and he never really gave me

249
00:21:22,982 --> 00:21:28,137
[jim_gottstein]: a clear answer and but i was
pretty sure he had been and i mean

250
00:21:28,177 --> 00:21:35,720
[jim_gottstein]: that led to problems later and so
i supped you know so yeah you have

251
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:43,279
[jim_gottstein]: to have a reason and so the
point was is that and in the mayor's

252
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:49,689
[jim_gottstein]: case which i had i mentioned before
the with the great jackson report i had

253
00:21:49,789 --> 00:21:57,190
[jim_gottstein]: one this alaska supreme court decision that
said um m the statute says that if

254
00:21:57,250 --> 00:22:04,938
[jim_gottstein]: the person is incompetent to decline the
medication and the hospital gets to do whatever

255
00:22:04,978 --> 00:22:11,741
[jim_gottstein]: they want i went and i said
no they can't do that they've got to

256
00:22:11,821 --> 00:22:17,344
[jim_gottstein]: at least prove it's in the person's
best interest and there's no less intrusive alternative

257
00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:24,287
[jim_gottstein]: and so and they agreed with me
on that and so so then the legal

258
00:22:24,327 --> 00:22:32,981
[jim_gottstein]: basis was as well you shouldn't be
allowed to drug bill with with these drugs

259
00:22:33,762 --> 00:22:38,410
[jim_gottstein]: because it's not in the is best
interest and here are these secret documents that

260
00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:43,483
[jim_gottstein]: will show that and so i'm entitled
to these docet and to help prove my

261
00:22:43,604 --> 00:22:46,013
[jim_gottstein]: case that bill should not be drugged
against as well

262
00:22:47,260 --> 00:22:53,997
[sean]: okay what what is the secret information
that in this document that can serve the

263
00:22:54,037 --> 00:22:54,318
[sean]: public

264
00:22:57,056 --> 00:23:04,273
[jim_gottstein]: well first of all i'm under an
injunction not to further disseminate the ziprex paper

265
00:23:04,393 --> 00:23:10,702
[jim_gottstein]: so i can't really say but but
there you know numerous newspaper reports but i

266
00:23:10,783 --> 00:23:16,672
[jim_gottstein]: can't say that i can really answer
your question i mean they caused diabetes and

267
00:23:16,733 --> 00:23:23,492
[jim_gottstein]: they hid that from the doctors they
cause diabetes and they cause other metogolic problems

268
00:23:23,653 --> 00:23:32,019
[jim_gottstein]: and a pretty high percentage of people
do uh significant weight gain and many people

269
00:23:32,060 --> 00:23:37,021
[jim_gottstein]: would gain a hundred pounds in a
year and people that got diabetes got diabetes

270
00:23:37,121 --> 00:23:42,892
[jim_gottstein]: even if they didn't gain weight and
so that's you know that's a deadly thing

271
00:23:42,953 --> 00:23:48,638
[jim_gottstein]: i mean i tend to say that
now tens of thousands of people have been

272
00:23:48,698 --> 00:23:53,344
[jim_gottstein]: killed by ziprexa but i don't don't
know if you know d peter girsha who's

273
00:23:53,784 --> 00:24:02,594
[jim_gottstein]: one of the now most may be
published medical researchers in the world and he

274
00:24:02,974 --> 00:24:10,897
[jim_gottstein]: calculates that by that time our hundred
thousand people have been killed by zitrexa so

275
00:24:10,871 --> 00:24:10,971
[sean]: wow

276
00:24:12,819 --> 00:24:18,144
[jim_gottstein]: you know and the fat you know
so yeah these are just this is just

277
00:24:18,285 --> 00:24:24,928
[jim_gottstein]: staggering harm and this was being hidden
from the doctors and and so you know

278
00:24:25,229 --> 00:24:29,450
[jim_gottstein]: i thought maybe the public should be
informed of this

279
00:24:30,604 --> 00:24:34,024
[sean]: absolutely so you're kind of faced with
this i'm going to describe it as a

280
00:24:34,064 --> 00:24:39,534
[sean]: moral dilemma because you have to determine
you have to have to protect yourself legally

281
00:24:40,115 --> 00:24:48,105
[sean]: because any way you distribute this information
you potentially could be violating the law and

282
00:24:48,165 --> 00:24:52,792
[sean]: putting yourself at risk while at the
same time you're you have this information that

283
00:24:52,893 --> 00:24:58,102
[sean]: you know is harmful to hundreds and
thousands of people i think at the time

284
00:24:58,283 --> 00:25:03,035
[sean]: ziprexa was there one of their top
selling drugs i think it was like grossing

285
00:25:03,577 --> 00:25:04,018
[sean]: a billion

286
00:25:04,567 --> 00:25:04,971
[jim_gottstein]: number one

287
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:05,607
[sean]: it was number

288
00:25:05,486 --> 00:25:05,709
[jim_gottstein]: five

289
00:25:05,709 --> 00:25:05,770
[sean]: one

290
00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:06,438
[jim_gottstein]: billion a year

291
00:25:06,971 --> 00:25:14,836
[sean]: five billion yeahgrossing five billion a year
and you have the privilege of having having

292
00:25:14,877 --> 00:25:23,685
[sean]: this information that demonstrates that people could
develop metabolic indra diabetes cardiovascular problem significant waking

293
00:25:24,306 --> 00:25:29,310
[sean]: people will die from taking this drug
so i'm just really interested in kind of

294
00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:34,954
[sean]: maybe understanding you know what you are
going through emotionally at that time how you

295
00:25:35,055 --> 00:25:37,834
[sean]: came about making the decisions that you
did

296
00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:50,166
[jim_gottstein]: well first off i was determined to
do things legally and so my life my

297
00:25:50,286 --> 00:25:56,612
[jim_gottstein]: position was is that dr eagle man
was the one who signed you know on

298
00:25:56,672 --> 00:26:01,128
[jim_gottstein]: to that secrecy order and he had
to follow it and so when i had

299
00:26:01,228 --> 00:26:06,198
[jim_gottstein]: supped en him he had to give
eli lily a reasonable opportunity to object before

300
00:26:06,539 --> 00:26:10,920
[jim_gottstein]: he gave them to me and i
expected that they would object and that i

301
00:26:10,981 --> 00:26:16,823
[jim_gottstein]: would be in court arguing to the
judge in alaska why you know bill bigley

302
00:26:16,903 --> 00:26:22,112
[jim_gottstein]: was entitled to these documents to defend
against being drugged against as well because it

303
00:26:22,192 --> 00:26:29,368
[jim_gottstein]: showed that it wasn't in his best
interest but i there were some you know

304
00:26:29,468 --> 00:26:35,962
[jim_gottstein]: games played so for example eagle man
sent notice to the general council of eli

305
00:26:36,082 --> 00:26:39,209
[jim_gottstein]: lily figuring it would take a little
while to get to the lawyers handling the

306
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:48,024
[jim_gottstein]: case and and then there was i
maybe get into that later but but when

307
00:26:48,144 --> 00:26:54,036
[jim_gottstein]: i but once i have the documents
as far as i was concerned i was

308
00:26:54,117 --> 00:26:55,560
[jim_gottstein]: free to distribute them but

309
00:26:55,580 --> 00:26:55,822
[sean]: because

310
00:26:55,661 --> 00:26:55,701
[jim_gottstein]: i

311
00:26:55,862 --> 00:26:55,943
[sean]: you

312
00:26:55,881 --> 00:26:56,102
[jim_gottstein]: also

313
00:26:56,023 --> 00:26:56,326
[sean]: hadn't

314
00:26:56,182 --> 00:26:56,342
[jim_gottstein]: know

315
00:26:56,447 --> 00:26:56,709
[sean]: signed

316
00:26:56,463 --> 00:26:56,743
[jim_gottstein]: lily

317
00:26:56,769 --> 00:26:56,890
[sean]: any

318
00:26:56,824 --> 00:26:57,064
[jim_gottstein]: you know

319
00:26:56,971 --> 00:26:59,210
[sean]: document is it because you hadn't signed

320
00:26:59,096 --> 00:26:59,257
[jim_gottstein]: yeah

321
00:26:59,250 --> 00:26:59,795
[sean]: any agreement

322
00:27:02,057 --> 00:27:09,363
[jim_gottstein]: and and they had been and they'd
come out from under the secrecy order and

323
00:27:09,313 --> 00:27:09,900
[sean]: hm

324
00:27:09,524 --> 00:27:16,533
[jim_gottstein]: so um but i even though lily
had been slow i knew that once they

325
00:27:16,613 --> 00:27:21,153
[jim_gottstein]: got going they would be big and
fast so once i found that i had

326
00:27:21,233 --> 00:27:25,772
[jim_gottstein]: him i got them out fast and
i and i got them out i tried

327
00:27:25,832 --> 00:27:31,709
[jim_gottstein]: to get him out in a way
that could not be gotten back and so

328
00:27:31,790 --> 00:27:37,403
[jim_gottstein]: they ended up and i and i
in the book i you know disclose who

329
00:27:37,543 --> 00:27:43,030
[jim_gottstein]: the people were that got them out
on the internet is i think it's called

330
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:46,975
[jim_gottstein]: bit torn or tour and it was
kind of a precursor to wick leagues

331
00:27:47,576 --> 00:27:48,150
[sean]: hm

332
00:27:47,628 --> 00:27:53,948
[jim_gottstein]: um m and so i got him
out to them most and i was i

333
00:27:54,029 --> 00:28:00,691
[jim_gottstein]: would as i was making dvds of
these and it was right there you know

334
00:28:00,771 --> 00:28:04,583
[jim_gottstein]: it's kind of during the christmas rush
and anyway i had my i had my

335
00:28:05,976 --> 00:28:10,684
[jim_gottstein]: music you know rock music going in
the background and i had three computers making

336
00:28:10,764 --> 00:28:16,634
[jim_gottstein]: d v ds um you know addressing
envelopes and going out to to the post

337
00:28:16,774 --> 00:28:22,834
[jim_gottstein]: office putting them in in the mail
and and i

338
00:28:25,858 --> 00:28:28,343
[jim_gottstein]: one of my thoughts was it was
kind of amusing i knew it was right

339
00:28:28,423 --> 00:28:31,728
[jim_gottstein]: in the christmas rush and so it
might take weeks for some of these to

340
00:28:31,808 --> 00:28:41,181
[jim_gottstein]: get somewhere and it did but this
was i think on december twelfth two thousand

341
00:28:41,362 --> 00:28:48,555
[jim_gottstein]: six and the new york times the
first article came out on december seventeenth so

342
00:28:49,277 --> 00:28:55,226
[jim_gottstein]: um in addition to the dvds i
had set up what's call and f t

343
00:28:55,386 --> 00:29:02,113
[jim_gottstein]: p file transfer protocol which is designed
to send a lot of files and big

344
00:29:02,233 --> 00:29:09,622
[jim_gottstein]: files over the internet and that's how
will hall who put him out on the

345
00:29:09,662 --> 00:29:15,457
[jim_gottstein]: internet got him and that's how alex
berenson got them as well so

346
00:29:19,177 --> 00:29:25,707
[jim_gottstein]: anyway that and then that's what happened
then course eli lily did get big and

347
00:29:25,767 --> 00:29:29,463
[jim_gottstein]: fast some it is kind of amazing
how they could whistle of federal judges to

348
00:29:30,427 --> 00:29:31,793
[jim_gottstein]: issue orders against me

349
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:37,137
[sean]: yeah i mean this book plays out
like a movie so i almost like saw

350
00:29:37,198 --> 00:29:40,643
[sean]: it in my mind like there's a
movie and i think this would be a

351
00:29:40,683 --> 00:29:43,107
[sean]: great movie do hope somebody

352
00:29:42,739 --> 00:29:42,759
[jim_gottstein]: i

353
00:29:43,188 --> 00:29:48,573
[sean]: out there turns this book a movie
and one of the things that really stand

354
00:29:48,774 --> 00:29:52,760
[sean]: stands out is that you know you're
i'm thinking about this like the stress that

355
00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:57,208
[sean]: you're under i already know because you
wrote about it that when you're when you

356
00:29:57,288 --> 00:30:00,902
[sean]: struggle with sleep and can become a
problem you really struggle with your your own

357
00:30:00,963 --> 00:30:07,528
[sean]: mental health and these these eli lilly
attorneys are like pit bulls and they don't

358
00:30:07,608 --> 00:30:10,293
[sean]: sleep like they don't ever sleep because
they're they're

359
00:30:10,346 --> 00:30:10,366
[jim_gottstein]: i

360
00:30:10,393 --> 00:30:13,979
[sean]: they're emailing you at like three in
the morning and two in the morning with

361
00:30:14,059 --> 00:30:18,404
[sean]: questions but back to the moral dilemma
you were facing you had to determine what

362
00:30:18,464 --> 00:30:21,667
[sean]: is a reasonable amount of time for
them to object now that

363
00:30:21,622 --> 00:30:21,642
[jim_gottstein]: a

364
00:30:21,728 --> 00:30:22,869
[sean]: seems very arbitrary

365
00:30:24,466 --> 00:30:27,062
[jim_gottstein]: no that was dr eagle man's call

366
00:30:27,712 --> 00:30:27,874
[sean]: okay

367
00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:29,298
[jim_gottstein]: i supine him

368
00:30:29,861 --> 00:30:29,984
[sean]: right

369
00:30:29,879 --> 00:30:34,270
[jim_gottstein]: it was his obligato and lily screwed
up i mean in all kinds of ways

370
00:30:34,631 --> 00:30:34,872
[jim_gottstein]: okay

371
00:30:38,747 --> 00:30:46,749
[jim_gottstein]: so for example the he's supine and
someone who supine has a right to object

372
00:30:46,809 --> 00:30:53,417
[jim_gottstein]: to a spina and then when they
object to the spina everything stops so and

373
00:30:53,639 --> 00:30:59,591
[jim_gottstein]: under this agreement that he signed you
know he has to notify lily and then

374
00:30:59,691 --> 00:31:05,110
[jim_gottstein]: he has to do what lily says
so lily should have just directed him to

375
00:31:05,211 --> 00:31:13,807
[jim_gottstein]: object but they didn't and said i
get this call um m i forget when

376
00:31:13,907 --> 00:31:21,100
[jim_gottstein]: it was it was a couple days
after they got out from eielilily got a

377
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,971
[jim_gottstein]: lawyer in alaska and he called and
left it was hanka so i'd gone home

378
00:31:26,011 --> 00:31:29,362
[jim_gottstein]: a little bit early and so it
was late afternoon and he left a voice

379
00:31:29,462 --> 00:31:34,516
[jim_gottstein]: mail on my my voice mail which
i picked up later that night in and

380
00:31:35,579 --> 00:31:40,737
[jim_gottstein]: so i thought i don't want to
seem like and then i immediately tell eagle

381
00:31:40,797 --> 00:31:46,999
[jim_gottstein]: man dr eagle man they're on to
us and so and he decides that they've

382
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:54,138
[jim_gottstein]: had a reasonable opportunity to object and
so i decide i think i don't want

383
00:31:54,198 --> 00:31:59,370
[jim_gottstein]: him to think that i'm avoiding him
but i don't really want to talk to

384
00:31:59,410 --> 00:32:03,830
[jim_gottstein]: him right now and so so i
call him first thing in the morning at

385
00:32:03,950 --> 00:32:07,667
[jim_gottstein]: eight in the morning figuring he's not
going to be there and that's and i

386
00:32:07,787 --> 00:32:12,753
[jim_gottstein]: left a message for him and i
didn't hear back from him until a couple

387
00:32:12,793 --> 00:32:20,562
[jim_gottstein]: of days later that friday then i
got all these threatening letters from eli lily

388
00:32:20,702 --> 00:32:25,755
[jim_gottstein]: and then the special discovery master calls
and leaves a message to call them over

389
00:32:25,815 --> 00:32:30,028
[jim_gottstein]: the weekend and then a few hours
later you know issues this

390
00:32:29,910 --> 00:32:30,193
[sean]: oh

391
00:32:30,229 --> 00:32:36,922
[jim_gottstein]: order saying to return them and not
to further disseminate them and i say how

392
00:32:37,002 --> 00:32:41,271
[jim_gottstein]: do you get to order me about
so we're off to the races at that

393
00:32:41,371 --> 00:32:41,613
[jim_gottstein]: point

394
00:32:42,052 --> 00:32:42,520
[sean]: yeah and that's for

395
00:32:42,438 --> 00:32:42,760
[jim_gottstein]: and then

396
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,695
[sean]: the go ahead

397
00:32:44,676 --> 00:32:50,293
[jim_gottstein]: and then and the new york times
article breaks that i think it was a

398
00:32:50,454 --> 00:32:50,774
[jim_gottstein]: sunday

399
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,246
[sean]: and that's where the book really picks
off and where the movie will pick off

400
00:32:55,366 --> 00:32:59,733
[sean]: to i would really love to see
the movie because i'm imagining it's the home

401
00:32:59,793 --> 00:33:05,004
[sean]: alone scene you got your christmas music
playing in the background rocket the christmas tree

402
00:33:05,104 --> 00:33:07,671
[sean]: and you're just burned in d v
des and mailing them out right before the

403
00:33:07,711 --> 00:33:10,078
[sean]: holidays that would be fascinating to see

404
00:33:10,266 --> 00:33:14,162
[jim_gottstein]: i'm sure it's not really christmas tree
but that's the idea

405
00:33:15,291 --> 00:33:19,117
[sean]: um i do have to i worked
in the business field and i worked in

406
00:33:19,197 --> 00:33:26,429
[sean]: advertising and often we would rely upon
a a text study that would provide us

407
00:33:26,610 --> 00:33:30,485
[sean]: information that would guide us in terms
of how we were going to market a

408
00:33:30,566 --> 00:33:37,207
[sean]: product features benefits and then ultimately what
would set our product apart from any other

409
00:33:37,980 --> 00:33:42,864
[sean]: so in these papers that you identified
was there anything that jumped out to you

410
00:33:42,984 --> 00:33:47,215
[sean]: that ultimately led to this the settlement
of the one

411
00:33:47,137 --> 00:33:47,198
[jim_gottstein]: so

412
00:33:47,275 --> 00:33:48,398
[sean]: point four million dollars

413
00:33:48,928 --> 00:33:56,150
[jim_gottstein]: a well i mean there were two
parts to it well

414
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,540
[sean]: yeah

415
00:33:58,296 --> 00:34:02,649
[jim_gottstein]: the settlement was not well there were
two there was a settlement and all of

416
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:08,599
[jim_gottstein]: the damage people that sued m and
so that was over the damage but then

417
00:34:09,140 --> 00:34:12,766
[jim_gottstein]: the one that you mentioned the one
point four billion with the government that was

418
00:34:12,907 --> 00:34:17,235
[jim_gottstein]: over basically illegal promotion

419
00:34:17,937 --> 00:34:18,510
[sean]: hm

420
00:34:18,196 --> 00:34:24,414
[jim_gottstein]: so m doctors can prescribe any drug
that's improved for any use doctors can prescribe

421
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:35,360
[jim_gottstein]: for drugs are a proof for specific
uses m but doctors can prescribe for any

422
00:34:35,521 --> 00:34:44,232
[jim_gottstein]: use the drug companies can only promote
approved uses and so at that point zyprexa

423
00:34:44,292 --> 00:34:52,500
[jim_gottstein]: had only been improved for um ople
diagnosed with skitzofrenia and maybe by polar disorder

424
00:34:52,580 --> 00:34:59,977
[jim_gottstein]: by that time and so but they
were marketing it to children and they were

425
00:35:00,037 --> 00:35:05,552
[jim_gottstein]: marketing and this is you know really
damaging drug and they were marketing it to

426
00:35:05,692 --> 00:35:11,367
[jim_gottstein]: the elderly basically in nursing homes i
mean what happens is you know people don't

427
00:35:11,427 --> 00:35:15,811
[jim_gottstein]: like being in those plexcisalot were they
complain and you give them ziprexa and they're

428
00:35:15,872 --> 00:35:20,078
[jim_gottstein]: not able to complain any more they
hardly can't even get out of bed and

429
00:35:20,138 --> 00:35:24,111
[jim_gottstein]: then they die and the you know
people say oh well you're your mother was

430
00:35:24,251 --> 00:35:24,412
[jim_gottstein]: old

431
00:35:25,833 --> 00:35:27,042
[sean]: so i got a question we

432
00:35:26,947 --> 00:35:27,169
[jim_gottstein]: and i

433
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:33,779
[sean]: we had recently had the discussion with
with patrick on on obedience pills about a

434
00:35:33,839 --> 00:35:38,066
[sean]: d h d medication the medication of
children which we all agree you shouldn't really

435
00:35:38,266 --> 00:35:44,136
[sean]: be happening during this per of time
when this market was marketed to children i

436
00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:47,081
[sean]: listened to another speech of yours i
think you were giving a lecture and you

437
00:35:47,361 --> 00:35:51,428
[sean]: you said at one time uh children
would be put into a category and we

438
00:35:51,488 --> 00:35:55,213
[sean]: would never drug them but between like
nineteen ninety five and two thousand five there

439
00:35:55,234 --> 00:35:59,019
[sean]: was this dramatic change in the approach
what was happening during that time

440
00:36:01,246 --> 00:36:06,332
[jim_gottstein]: well johnson and johnson i mean there
was always a d h d and the

441
00:36:06,432 --> 00:36:14,696
[jim_gottstein]: stimulants that as a pretty significant number
of children given the stimulants like riddling or

442
00:36:14,816 --> 00:36:20,047
[jim_gottstein]: through terror or whatever at or all
it causes them to become manic so then

443
00:36:20,127 --> 00:36:24,619
[jim_gottstein]: they get diagnosed with by polar disorder
but there is a psychiatrist at harvard medical

444
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:31,261
[jim_gottstein]: school that johnson and johnson he o
do a study that said risperdall was safe

445
00:36:31,321 --> 00:36:36,681
[jim_gottstein]: and effective for the use in children
and so he's been attributed to

446
00:36:38,580 --> 00:36:40,410
[sean]: yeah oh

447
00:36:39,757 --> 00:36:47,929
[jim_gottstein]: the four forty times increase in the
diagnosis of by polar disorder in children in

448
00:36:48,049 --> 00:36:53,671
[jim_gottstein]: ten years so and there's i mean
that was in a different case that where

449
00:36:53,751 --> 00:36:59,129
[jim_gottstein]: some secret documents got out and there
was an email there's all these email exchanges

450
00:36:59,209 --> 00:37:04,619
[jim_gottstein]: between beaterman and johnson and johnson basically
where he says i'm going to do this

451
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:10,502
[jim_gottstein]: study and the result is going to
be that rispertall should be used in children

452
00:37:11,672 --> 00:37:15,525
[sean]: but it's interesting at that time so
around when you were going through this

453
00:37:15,508 --> 00:37:15,672
[jim_gottstein]: yeah

454
00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:22,148
[sean]: and the ziprexa papers were released the
new york times article and so forth at

455
00:37:22,188 --> 00:37:22,969
[sean]: that time i was in the middle

456
00:37:22,956 --> 00:37:23,263
[jim_gottstein]: oh

457
00:37:22,989 --> 00:37:28,158
[sean]: of my doctoral program and i was
at a placement in community mental health center

458
00:37:28,739 --> 00:37:34,732
[sean]: and i remember this sichiatrist telling me
that if any of my clients who are

459
00:37:34,832 --> 00:37:43,031
[sean]: prescribed in s s r i exhibit
any mania or manic symptoms that would mean

460
00:37:43,332 --> 00:37:48,400
[sean]: that they are by polar and then
the next drug that should be placed to

461
00:37:48,541 --> 00:37:49,803
[sean]: some neuroleptic

462
00:37:49,661 --> 00:37:49,762
[jim_gottstein]: to

463
00:37:49,943 --> 00:37:54,310
[sean]: some form of quote quote mood stabilizer
which at the time was ziprecice you know

464
00:37:54,431 --> 00:37:57,597
[sean]: a lot and i was almost fell
off my chair reading your

465
00:37:57,487 --> 00:37:57,650
[jim_gottstein]: thank

466
00:37:57,658 --> 00:38:04,972
[sean]: book where this was deliberate on part
of the marketing teams two push that information

467
00:38:05,052 --> 00:38:09,883
[sean]: without any scientific basis knowing that a
side effect of s s r s in

468
00:38:09,963 --> 00:38:14,347
[sean]: a percentage of the population is going
to be mania be able to increase the

469
00:38:14,488 --> 00:38:15,595
[sean]: sale of zy prex

470
00:38:16,207 --> 00:38:16,227
[jim_gottstein]: i

471
00:38:16,490 --> 00:38:22,458
[sean]: they hold the physicians many of them
primary care physicians who just don't have the

472
00:38:22,558 --> 00:38:29,009
[sean]: background knowledge or time for full examinations
they just inform them that this just means

473
00:38:29,029 --> 00:38:30,582
[sean]: their bible or you have to add
ziprexa

474
00:38:32,636 --> 00:38:37,444
[jim_gottstein]: yeah and they you know they say
oh the and i depressed so called and

475
00:38:38,285 --> 00:38:46,629
[jim_gottstein]: the present unmasked your diet you know
by polar disorder and what's i can't think

476
00:38:46,689 --> 00:38:54,324
[jim_gottstein]: of his name there is a psychiatrist
in also at harvard you know the anti

477
00:38:54,384 --> 00:39:02,892
[jim_gottstein]: depression is also caused suicideality and you
know violence and m and so he did

478
00:39:02,952 --> 00:39:09,053
[jim_gottstein]: this study where you know well he
noticed some patients that they became you know

479
00:39:09,395 --> 00:39:14,440
[jim_gottstein]: agitated and violent and so he said
lynch stopped the drug and then stopped the

480
00:39:14,481 --> 00:39:21,551
[jim_gottstein]: drug and that that reaction ceased and
they said well let's see what happens when

481
00:39:21,611 --> 00:39:26,339
[jim_gottstein]: we started again and they they started
the drug again and that you know symptom

482
00:39:26,699 --> 00:39:30,426
[jim_gottstein]: re occur and they stopped it and
stopped and so you know there's a side

483
00:39:30,586 --> 00:39:38,063
[jim_gottstein]: that these random is controlled studies are
the gold standard but this is called a

484
00:39:38,143 --> 00:39:42,991
[jim_gottstein]: challenge d challenge re challenge and that's
really good evidence and as i

485
00:39:43,029 --> 00:39:43,050
[sean]: m

486
00:39:43,131 --> 00:39:50,281
[jim_gottstein]: write in my book they really cook
the books on these random ized control trials

487
00:39:50,381 --> 00:39:53,185
[jim_gottstein]: in order to make their drugs look
good

488
00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:02,233
[sean]: yeah so the question i have right
now is after this settlement happened in was

489
00:40:02,273 --> 00:40:06,508
[sean]: it january of two thousand nine so
problem

490
00:40:06,447 --> 00:40:06,570
[jim_gottstein]: think

491
00:40:06,528 --> 00:40:07,294
[sean]: has been solved right

492
00:40:09,806 --> 00:40:19,122
[jim_gottstein]: we uh you know a bunch of
states sued lily over the cost of treating

493
00:40:19,463 --> 00:40:25,236
[jim_gottstein]: diabetes and other metabolic problems they had
to pay through their medicate programs in alaska

494
00:40:25,317 --> 00:40:30,006
[jim_gottstein]: was one of them and it was
the first as to go to trial and

495
00:40:30,106 --> 00:40:37,132
[jim_gottstein]: at that point i thought oolishly that
lily was negotiating some kind of settlement with

496
00:40:37,192 --> 00:40:42,819
[jim_gottstein]: me and i and i mentioned to
them you know there's still forcing prex on

497
00:40:42,940 --> 00:40:43,202
[jim_gottstein]: people

498
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:44,400
[sean]: mhm

499
00:40:44,237 --> 00:40:49,437
[jim_gottstein]: and so then they brought it up
in a trial so i was kind of

500
00:40:49,637 --> 00:40:56,184
[jim_gottstein]: upset with myself on that but um
m you know ziprexa is off patent now

501
00:40:57,046 --> 00:41:02,644
[jim_gottstein]: so lily doesn't really care that much
i mean they still saw a lot of

502
00:41:02,744 --> 00:41:08,277
[jim_gottstein]: it um but it's kind of amazing
how they come out with his new drug

503
00:41:08,357 --> 00:41:13,448
[jim_gottstein]: that's not really any different or any
better and probably not as good if they're

504
00:41:13,528 --> 00:41:23,222
[jim_gottstein]: good at all um and more harmful
and they get they get the doctors psychotrists

505
00:41:23,262 --> 00:41:29,579
[jim_gottstein]: and other prebscribers prescribe the latest drugs
that haven't really you know nobody has any

506
00:41:29,659 --> 00:41:34,713
[jim_gottstein]: really experience and they cost you know
a ton of money much more than the

507
00:41:34,793 --> 00:41:38,084
[jim_gottstein]: older ones they get the doctors to
prescribe this stuff

508
00:41:40,031 --> 00:41:42,836
[sean]: jim i got a i got a
question and maybe you can answer it for

509
00:41:42,896 --> 00:41:46,942
[sean]: me because sometimes i feel like i
live on another planet um you know we

510
00:41:47,023 --> 00:41:51,690
[sean]: have all this information you know i've
been seeing a decade like how how the

511
00:41:51,790 --> 00:41:57,159
[sean]: health of clients who who were diagnosed
with serious mental health conditions such as by

512
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:04,253
[sean]: polar or skits of frina how you
know just declined dramatically and there they're functioning

513
00:42:04,314 --> 00:42:11,204
[sean]: as really decreased so it's not like
we have all this empirical data from strong

514
00:42:11,264 --> 00:42:15,413
[sean]: clinical trials and we certainly don't have
the anecdotal evidence or the observational evidence that

515
00:42:15,453 --> 00:42:19,590
[sean]: these drugs are highly effective an don't
care what the drug is help me get

516
00:42:19,650 --> 00:42:24,118
[sean]: into the minds of these doctors who
keep repeating the same things over and over

517
00:42:24,178 --> 00:42:29,046
[sean]: again and are able to take this
information that from farmasutical sales people and then

518
00:42:29,106 --> 00:42:32,919
[sean]: continue to make the same mistake the
next drug the next drug what is going

519
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:34,286
[sean]: on there what's the other side of
this

520
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:39,864
[jim_gottstein]: so you know i showed this to
you i mean i don't know if you

521
00:42:39,884 --> 00:42:40,345
[jim_gottstein]: can hear it

522
00:42:42,260 --> 00:42:42,563
[sean]: we can hear

523
00:42:42,667 --> 00:42:42,990
[jim_gottstein]: he is

524
00:42:43,650 --> 00:42:43,831
[sean]: oh

525
00:42:44,681 --> 00:42:47,607
[jim_gottstein]: can you see that is that backwards

526
00:42:48,110 --> 00:42:48,551
[sean]: no we can

527
00:42:48,569 --> 00:42:48,833
[jim_gottstein]: anyway

528
00:42:48,631 --> 00:42:53,501
[sean]: see it it's it's lucy you're holding
up a shirt of lucy from the peanuts

529
00:42:54,062 --> 00:42:56,046
[sean]: psychiatric help the doctor was

530
00:42:58,006 --> 00:42:59,273
[jim_gottstein]: fold are complacent

531
00:42:59,210 --> 00:43:00,355
[sean]: fooled or complacent

532
00:43:00,318 --> 00:43:00,501
[jim_gottstein]: oh

533
00:43:00,998 --> 00:43:01,943
[sean]: for our listeners that can't

534
00:43:01,919 --> 00:43:02,041
[jim_gottstein]: and

535
00:43:02,003 --> 00:43:02,244
[sean]: speak

536
00:43:04,036 --> 00:43:10,913
[jim_gottstein]: and and i haven't you know i
try not to attribute bad motives to people

537
00:43:12,006 --> 00:43:18,738
[jim_gottstein]: and you know it seems like these
people want to help so you know maybe

538
00:43:18,778 --> 00:43:26,902
[jim_gottstein]: they're full but at this point the
evidence is just overwhelming about how harmful these

539
00:43:26,963 --> 00:43:36,309
[jim_gottstein]: drugs are how counter productive they are
i mean there's m it's pretty clear that

540
00:43:36,410 --> 00:43:42,982
[jim_gottstein]: people that present with a first time
psychosis if you take the different approach like

541
00:43:43,323 --> 00:43:50,241
[jim_gottstein]: the soteria approach or open dialogue approach
that you can get and really avoid the

542
00:43:50,381 --> 00:43:56,680
[jim_gottstein]: use of neuroleptics if at all possible
you can get an eighty per cent recovery

543
00:43:56,781 --> 00:44:05,195
[jim_gottstein]: rate okay we have a five percent
recovery rate and and i rely heavily on

544
00:44:05,316 --> 00:44:11,148
[jim_gottstein]: robert whittaker's work and he m and
one of one of the grass he has

545
00:44:11,409 --> 00:44:18,574
[jim_gottstein]: is at the rate of disability on
a per capita basis because of mental illness

546
00:44:18,614 --> 00:44:24,892
[jim_gottstein]: where mental illness is you know attributed
as the cause of disability has gone up

547
00:44:25,212 --> 00:44:31,444
[jim_gottstein]: eight times since the introduction of the
so called miracle drug thorizine in the midnighteen

548
00:44:31,564 --> 00:44:31,965
[jim_gottstein]: fifties

549
00:44:31,652 --> 00:44:31,753
[sean]: ah

550
00:44:32,706 --> 00:44:41,352
[jim_gottstein]: and so we have this evidence and
then there's it's there's this studied by harold

551
00:44:41,412 --> 00:44:47,033
[jim_gottstein]: and job that that shows that people
who have been on the neuralyptics for a

552
00:44:47,073 --> 00:44:53,046
[jim_gottstein]: while and then get off of them
have a forty percent chance of recovering so

553
00:44:53,166 --> 00:44:58,864
[jim_gottstein]: that's eight times better than the five
per cent it's half of what what it

554
00:44:58,884 --> 00:45:07,107
[jim_gottstein]: would be if we avoided him in
the first place and m know so why

555
00:45:07,308 --> 00:45:10,933
[jim_gottstein]: is this allowed to happen i mean
i think you know you just have to

556
00:45:11,033 --> 00:45:17,082
[jim_gottstein]: say it's the money um you know
there's just so much money and but why

557
00:45:17,222 --> 00:45:18,725
[jim_gottstein]: the doctors go along with it

558
00:45:22,506 --> 00:45:26,415
[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't know i mean
it's you could say it's kind of a

559
00:45:26,475 --> 00:45:31,998
[jim_gottstein]: massed illusion i mean like you know
i mentioned dr grace jackson and she was

560
00:45:32,098 --> 00:45:38,596
[jim_gottstein]: a navy sychactrist paths and she'd been
trained the way they all have m and

561
00:45:38,636 --> 00:45:44,736
[jim_gottstein]: she was treating patients and she saw
that they weren't wasn't helping you so then

562
00:45:44,856 --> 00:45:48,981
[jim_gottstein]: she looked into it and you know
and discovered the truth about it and so

563
00:45:49,182 --> 00:45:54,816
[jim_gottstein]: she she refused to do it what
she got drummed out of the navy almost

564
00:45:54,916 --> 00:46:00,162
[jim_gottstein]: lost her license to practice law and
i think she had defiled bankruptcy at one

565
00:46:00,223 --> 00:46:09,729
[jim_gottstein]: point and so one other little anecdote
so after i read matt in american two

566
00:46:09,769 --> 00:46:14,114
[jim_gottstein]: thousand two i brought i actually brought
bob whittaker robert whitaker up to alaska and

567
00:46:14,134 --> 00:46:18,568
[jim_gottstein]: one of these things i got him
to do go have a talk at the

568
00:46:18,608 --> 00:46:25,767
[jim_gottstein]: alaska psychiatric institute you know they had
psychiatrists and other staff members an even psychitist

569
00:46:25,827 --> 00:46:30,232
[jim_gottstein]: from the community come in and he
gave his talk and i would say the

570
00:46:30,773 --> 00:46:35,776
[jim_gottstein]: kind of feeling in the room was
well even if we agree with what you

571
00:46:35,936 --> 00:46:41,273
[jim_gottstein]: say and we kind of do we
wouldn't be allowed to do what you suggest

572
00:46:41,820 --> 00:46:42,990
[sean]: oh

573
00:46:42,386 --> 00:46:49,548
[jim_gottstein]: and so it's not the way doctors
are supposed to be but that's the way

574
00:46:49,608 --> 00:46:55,518
[jim_gottstein]: they are i mean society has this
idea you know that they need to drug

575
00:46:55,578 --> 00:47:00,390
[jim_gottstein]: these people to keep them from getting
killed in there you know when they're sleep

576
00:47:01,451 --> 00:47:05,694
[jim_gottstein]: when the truth is when you look
at all these mass shootings i mean everybody

577
00:47:05,734 --> 00:47:12,242
[jim_gottstein]: wants to blame mental is we need
to do more mental health treatment at virtually

578
00:47:12,485 --> 00:47:19,599
[jim_gottstein]: all of them we're on psyche drugs
and often the anidepressens you know it's not

579
00:47:19,659 --> 00:47:25,830
[jim_gottstein]: a large number of people that are
that become violent um m when you have

580
00:47:26,071 --> 00:47:31,359
[jim_gottstein]: tens of millions of people on them
a small a small number who you know

581
00:47:31,739 --> 00:47:34,885
[jim_gottstein]: become homicidal results in what we're seeing

582
00:47:35,883 --> 00:47:42,628
[sean]: yeah jim i think this podcast episode
is so important because history matters and so

583
00:47:42,668 --> 00:47:46,935
[sean]: we're sitting here nd we're in twenty
twenty two all this happened you know around

584
00:47:46,995 --> 00:47:53,923
[sean]: two thousand six two thousand seven you
know was in the the national media it

585
00:47:53,963 --> 00:47:57,829
[sean]: was something that was certainly part of
our discourse but here we are

586
00:47:58,578 --> 00:47:58,598
[jim_gottstein]: i

587
00:47:58,821 --> 00:48:06,133
[sean]: in twenty twenty two and there's still
people being prescribed ziprexaand patients and families they

588
00:48:06,233 --> 00:48:08,779
[sean]: do not receive informed consent i'm just
goin t give you a quick

589
00:48:08,737 --> 00:48:08,838
[jim_gottstein]: oh

590
00:48:08,839 --> 00:48:14,302
[sean]: story because i got permission from a
client who i just previously conducted in evaluation

591
00:48:14,442 --> 00:48:21,814
[sean]: on and these type of situations are
all too familiar started episode started with having

592
00:48:21,855 --> 00:48:29,112
[sean]: covid post covid had about thirteen days
straight of a horrible migraine and this particular

593
00:48:29,212 --> 00:48:36,232
[sean]: person was placed on daily steroids i
v steroids with a side effect

594
00:48:36,276 --> 00:48:36,966
[jim_gottstein]: yeah

595
00:48:36,333 --> 00:48:45,184
[sean]: of that being mania so she was
getting ivystheroids going in to hospitals days after

596
00:48:45,224 --> 00:48:53,234
[sean]: days also taking some oral steroids and
additionally was smoking marawana throughout today to try

597
00:48:53,295 --> 00:48:57,862
[sean]: to alleviate the pain and then she
went into a manic episode and the manic

598
00:48:57,942 --> 00:49:05,013
[sean]: episode was severe and it required it
required hospitalization and she was told she has

599
00:49:05,073 --> 00:49:10,850
[sean]: by pole or one disorder it's in
a manic episode and was prescribed iprexo amongst

600
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:16,660
[sean]: other drugs so it's usually not just
one drug someone's prescribed it's multiple and it's

601
00:49:17,181 --> 00:49:22,710
[sean]: the interaction between the drugs it's providing
a la able without addressing the

602
00:49:22,759 --> 00:49:22,800
[jim_gottstein]: a

603
00:49:22,810 --> 00:49:28,237
[sean]: cause so it's very clear that there's
a high percentage of people that are prone

604
00:49:28,317 --> 00:49:33,855
[sean]: to going into manic episodes from being
that steroid but yet she's now labelled with

605
00:49:33,935 --> 00:49:37,461
[sean]: by polar one disorder and it's an
illness that she has to manage for the

606
00:49:37,501 --> 00:49:37,781
[sean]: rest of

607
00:49:37,747 --> 00:49:37,889
[jim_gottstein]: yeah

608
00:49:37,821 --> 00:49:41,207
[sean]: her life and she's going to be
placed on a drug a drug that creates

609
00:49:41,307 --> 00:49:46,015
[sean]: metabolic cyndrum a significant side effects and
then you're interacting it with other drugs that

610
00:49:46,055 --> 00:49:51,524
[sean]: haven't been adequately studied she's labelled with
a with a psychiatric diagnosis you can't test

611
00:49:51,604 --> 00:49:55,522
[sean]: for it's really the opinion of a
psychiatrist which was a sidin't at the time

612
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:03,432
[sean]: and she just feels absolutely horrible and
people don't have this information they assume these

613
00:50:03,512 --> 00:50:09,683
[sean]: psychiatric diagnosis are valid they're reliable in
what we have we have safe and effective

614
00:50:09,743 --> 00:50:11,406
[sean]: drugs to treat them and that's how

615
00:50:11,421 --> 00:50:11,441
[jim_gottstein]: i

616
00:50:11,446 --> 00:50:12,409
[sean]: the doctors communicate

617
00:50:14,776 --> 00:50:20,351
[jim_gottstein]: they don't they don't tell i mean
each drug comes with what's called a label

618
00:50:20,451 --> 00:50:31,913
[jim_gottstein]: which has now all these information on
the drugs and for example ziprexyouknow we'll say

619
00:50:32,174 --> 00:50:39,780
[jim_gottstein]: you know we'll have that on there
and i one and the drug companies really

620
00:50:39,860 --> 00:50:44,127
[jim_gottstein]: negotiate with the f d a to
try and minimize you know the negative aspects

621
00:50:44,187 --> 00:50:50,986
[jim_gottstein]: of that in one of my cross
examinations of doctrine a bill bigger cases i

622
00:50:51,126 --> 00:50:57,169
[jim_gottstein]: asked him about well doesn't it say
here that direct it causes or whatever drug

623
00:50:57,249 --> 00:51:02,023
[jim_gottstein]: it was is probably rispidoff causes psychosis
it says that right on the label that

624
00:51:02,283 --> 00:51:07,195
[jim_gottstein]: respertall causes psychosis it's supposed to be
the treatment for psychosis but it causes it

625
00:51:07,696 --> 00:51:13,125
[jim_gottstein]: and so he says oh you know
that's the lawyers just made them do that

626
00:51:13,366 --> 00:51:13,867
[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't

627
00:51:13,770 --> 00:51:13,790
[sean]: m

628
00:51:13,907 --> 00:51:14,890
[jim_gottstein]: pay any attention to that

629
00:51:15,361 --> 00:51:15,525
[sean]: yeah

630
00:51:15,572 --> 00:51:22,817
[jim_gottstein]: and now and it's like dr joanna
montre just came out with us study that

631
00:51:22,917 --> 00:51:31,133
[jim_gottstein]: the andssriande presence that there's well that
there's no evidence that the pressure is caused

632
00:51:31,193 --> 00:51:37,401
[jim_gottstein]: by chemical unbalance and the thing about
that you know it got a lot of

633
00:51:37,501 --> 00:51:42,661
[jim_gottstein]: play i mean national media and so
it's like oh now this is out there

634
00:51:43,306 --> 00:51:51,474
[jim_gottstein]: and but we've known about that for
twenty years the m and d ronald pies

635
00:51:51,534 --> 00:51:56,881
[jim_gottstein]: who was the head of the american
psychiatric association as we never told people there

636
00:51:56,901 --> 00:52:00,861
[jim_gottstein]: was a chemical in balance well i
heard someone last week who was told that

637
00:52:00,901 --> 00:52:09,538
[jim_gottstein]: they had a chemical in balance so
m yeh i mean it's so important for

638
00:52:09,578 --> 00:52:12,766
[jim_gottstein]: the public to know this stuff and
it's so hard to get them to know

639
00:52:12,846 --> 00:52:17,317
[jim_gottstein]: it and that's you know why i
wrote you know the book is you know

640
00:52:18,202 --> 00:52:24,616
[jim_gottstein]: i i think it could be impactful
if i if it got enough m you

641
00:52:24,976 --> 00:52:28,704
[jim_gottstein]: play in the in the general public
which it hasn't really

642
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,463
[sean]: so jim when it comes to protecting
the public since you brought up the f

643
00:52:32,543 --> 00:52:36,728
[sean]: d a isn't the f d a
there to protect the safety and welfare of

644
00:52:36,768 --> 00:52:37,129
[sean]: the public

645
00:52:39,096 --> 00:52:43,010
[jim_gottstein]: i think it's fair to say that
the f d is captured by the industry

646
00:52:43,091 --> 00:52:48,073
[jim_gottstein]: i mean there's this revolving door between
the f d a and farmer cuitical companies

647
00:52:48,737 --> 00:52:52,925
[jim_gottstein]: um m i think it was in
nineteen ninety two sometimes in the nineteen nineties

648
00:52:53,507 --> 00:52:58,219
[jim_gottstein]: congress changed the way the f d
a was financed so basically the f d

649
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,525
[jim_gottstein]: is financed by the drug companies

650
00:53:01,191 --> 00:53:01,272
[sean]: ah

651
00:53:01,436 --> 00:53:08,716
[jim_gottstein]: so the fat charges drug companies you
know for the approval of their drugs so

652
00:53:08,897 --> 00:53:12,649
[jim_gottstein]: the drug company s paid for the
approval of of their drugs and they get

653
00:53:12,729 --> 00:53:15,696
[jim_gottstein]: the approval of their drugs i mean
um m

654
00:53:17,103 --> 00:53:17,465
[sean]: so jim

655
00:53:17,819 --> 00:53:19,391
[jim_gottstein]: that is not rely

656
00:53:19,184 --> 00:53:19,488
[sean]: i've got a

657
00:53:19,472 --> 00:53:19,532
[jim_gottstein]: on

658
00:53:19,548 --> 00:53:19,913
[sean]: question

659
00:53:19,573 --> 00:53:20,057
[jim_gottstein]: the f d a

660
00:53:21,170 --> 00:53:24,937
[sean]: jim do you recall what happened the
very same day that the one point four

661
00:53:25,037 --> 00:53:29,846
[sean]: billion dollar fetal federal settlement regarding zaprexo
was announced with the f d a d

662
00:53:29,886 --> 00:53:31,128
[sean]: you remember what happened that same day

663
00:53:34,823 --> 00:53:34,986
[jim_gottstein]: tell

664
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:35,000
[sean]: i'll

665
00:53:35,026 --> 00:53:35,087
[jim_gottstein]: me

666
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:39,447
[sean]: read it to you because i found
this most interesting is on that very same

667
00:53:39,547 --> 00:53:45,437
[sean]: day the f d a issued guidance
permitting farmersutical companies to buy past the prohibition

668
00:53:45,637 --> 00:53:51,386
[sean]: of marketing off lay uses of drugs
allowing them to pass out medical journal articles

669
00:53:51,546 --> 00:53:57,132
[sean]: that discussed these non approved uses so
that was their way around marketing it was

670
00:53:57,212 --> 00:54:01,278
[sean]: to have medical journals do the work
for them and have it distributed to

671
00:54:01,288 --> 00:54:01,734
[jim_gottstein]: that

672
00:54:01,438 --> 00:54:01,959
[sean]: the doctors

673
00:54:03,606 --> 00:54:10,825
[jim_gottstein]: and that's another scandal is the whole
medical research literature a very large percentage oh

674
00:54:11,416 --> 00:54:17,821
[jim_gottstein]: medical journal articles are ghost written by
the drug companies and course the trials are

675
00:54:17,862 --> 00:54:19,125
[jim_gottstein]: all paid by the drug companies

676
00:54:19,230 --> 00:54:19,950
[sean]: yeah

677
00:54:19,756 --> 00:54:25,113
[jim_gottstein]: used to be universities would conduct you
know these drug tries not any more they

678
00:54:25,173 --> 00:54:34,017
[jim_gottstein]: have what they call contract research organizations
do these studies and you know if you

679
00:54:34,077 --> 00:54:37,860
[jim_gottstein]: want to get the next contract you
know this contract better come out with the

680
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:45,062
[jim_gottstein]: result that the drug company wants and
m and then they pay these key opinion

681
00:54:45,162 --> 00:54:53,076
[jim_gottstein]: leaders put their name on the articles
and they don't even allow these so called

682
00:54:53,257 --> 00:54:55,384
[jim_gottstein]: authors access to the data

683
00:54:55,946 --> 00:54:56,460
[sean]: hm

684
00:54:58,249 --> 00:55:05,942
[jim_gottstein]: i mean fundamentally i don't think health
care should be a profit driven enterprise because

685
00:55:06,343 --> 00:55:08,983
[jim_gottstein]: it brings in all this stuff its
corruption

686
00:55:10,751 --> 00:55:14,581
[sean]: yeah so unfortunate the way that i
started to think about things as we have

687
00:55:14,601 --> 00:55:19,593
[sean]: to educate the next generation and for
us here out of practice we develop some

688
00:55:19,773 --> 00:55:25,482
[sean]: guidelines around the actual safety and efficacy
of antidepressence because they're just astronomical the rise

689
00:55:25,543 --> 00:55:29,730
[sean]: and anti depressing that are just being
handed out to developing teen agers and young

690
00:55:29,850 --> 00:55:34,317
[sean]: people despite all the risks it's almost
like as as if it's candy you know

691
00:55:34,377 --> 00:55:41,008
[sean]: it as it has no risks and
these parents are actually you know scared to

692
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:47,608
[sean]: not except the medical recommendations or the
medical advice of their practitioners so we have

693
00:55:47,688 --> 00:55:53,224
[sean]: this we have this system of an
expert culture here in the united states where

694
00:55:53,284 --> 00:56:00,256
[sean]: we rely so much on on doctors
opinions the doctors have become nothing more than

695
00:56:00,397 --> 00:56:06,160
[sean]: legalized drug dealers in our in our
health care systems and this has to be

696
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:12,689
[sean]: a grass roots effort where we can
just be able to openly discuss scientific findings

697
00:56:13,470 --> 00:56:19,099
[sean]: and risks and benefits and that's what
is most concerning about where we are in

698
00:56:19,119 --> 00:56:20,341
[sean]: the united states culture

699
00:56:20,617 --> 00:56:20,760
[jim_gottstein]: that

700
00:56:21,082 --> 00:56:26,311
[sean]: is there's a there's a limitation that's
really placed on our ability to freely have

701
00:56:26,351 --> 00:56:33,971
[sean]: these conversations and there's where its like
misinformation being thrown out or conspiracy theory this

702
00:56:34,011 --> 00:56:35,073
[sean]: feels like a reasonable

703
00:56:35,236 --> 00:56:38,736
[jim_gottstein]: yeah

704
00:56:35,253 --> 00:56:40,642
[sean]: conversation based on actual evidence but if
you engage in with the greater public through

705
00:56:40,702 --> 00:56:44,569
[sean]: social media or you talk to just
people and your your friend group or you

706
00:56:44,609 --> 00:56:47,373
[sean]: know that you saw alive with they
kind of look at you like you're like

707
00:56:47,413 --> 00:56:50,999
[sean]: you're crazy by talking about this my
brother is right here we've had so many

708
00:56:51,059 --> 00:56:54,265
[sean]: early podcasts he thought a lot of
the things that i was talking about regarding

709
00:56:54,285 --> 00:56:57,590
[sean]: the impact of the farmsutical industry and
how we think of what is

710
00:56:57,617 --> 00:56:57,678
[jim_gottstein]: do

711
00:56:57,670 --> 00:57:00,896
[sean]: safe and what is healthy you thought
i was crazy i was making most of

712
00:57:00,956 --> 00:57:04,261
[sean]: it up i mean i still tink
you're crazy about a lot of things but

713
00:57:04,682 --> 00:57:11,535
[sean]: i believe these to be accurate nowyeahand
so the question is dedicated your our adult

714
00:57:11,615 --> 00:57:15,384
[sean]: life to this gym you know through
your our advocacy through the law project for

715
00:57:15,544 --> 00:57:23,518
[sean]: psychiatric rights how do we begin to
make changes obviously needs to be a grass

716
00:57:23,598 --> 00:57:27,845
[sean]: roots effort that requires you know so
many stay holders to be able to have

717
00:57:27,986 --> 00:57:35,072
[sean]: open dialogue and conversations but parmasutical industry
is powerful so powerful how do we even

718
00:57:35,172 --> 00:57:37,678
[sean]: begin to make changes and get this
information out

719
00:57:39,607 --> 00:57:45,822
[jim_gottstein]: so no i mean that's something that
i've tried to work out for twenty years

720
00:57:47,616 --> 00:57:50,642
[jim_gottstein]: and i you know i don't know
if you watch the video there's a video

721
00:57:50,703 --> 00:57:58,359
[jim_gottstein]: where i talk about um m now
how i see changing the system the mental

722
00:57:58,379 --> 00:58:05,081
[jim_gottstein]: health system or i call the illness
system and of course the most important thing

723
00:58:05,241 --> 00:58:13,110
[jim_gottstein]: is changing public attitudes and how do
you break through i mean i remember when

724
00:58:13,170 --> 00:58:20,119
[jim_gottstein]: they first said we got it we
got to stop trump on twitter and as

725
00:58:20,180 --> 00:58:27,081
[jim_gottstein]: much as you know you know trump
is you know so totally bad news to

726
00:58:27,142 --> 00:58:31,132
[jim_gottstein]: me it was like you know this
is a slippery slope and i'm not a

727
00:58:31,273 --> 00:58:37,366
[jim_gottstein]: slippery slope kind of guy i mean
normally when people make that argument yeah but

728
00:58:37,506 --> 00:58:43,527
[jim_gottstein]: this one has proven to be true
and there's so much censorship going on now

729
00:58:43,768 --> 00:58:48,778
[jim_gottstein]: i mean i've got these videos on
you tube and i started to get concerned

730
00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:54,824
[jim_gottstein]: that they'll be taken down at some
point i mean alex berenson is a perfect

731
00:58:54,904 --> 00:58:59,954
[jim_gottstein]: example um and there are all these
other people if you don't these days if

732
00:59:00,055 --> 00:59:07,430
[jim_gottstein]: you don't go along with you know
the authorities and you know then you're doing

733
00:59:07,550 --> 00:59:17,820
[jim_gottstein]: miss information and you should be stopped
rum discussion it's like now you know nobody

734
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:24,169
[jim_gottstein]: believes in the first amendment anymore and
that's not the way you know to deal

735
00:59:24,209 --> 00:59:30,014
[jim_gottstein]: with this stuff and i wish i
had an answer now i have a policy

736
00:59:31,266 --> 00:59:36,976
[jim_gottstein]: and i for twenty years of accepting
every speaking invitation that i can you know

737
00:59:37,036 --> 00:59:40,822
[jim_gottstein]: i'm pretty open about my stuff and
i write stuff and you know in a

738
00:59:40,882 --> 00:59:48,156
[jim_gottstein]: lot of ways the internet you know
is kind of an equalizer i mean i

739
00:59:48,417 --> 00:59:53,989
[jim_gottstein]: put stuff out and people find it
but not enough people i can't say anything

740
00:59:54,109 --> 01:00:00,084
[jim_gottstein]: i've done is gone quote viral and
i i i don't have a good answer

741
01:00:00,184 --> 01:00:07,037
[jim_gottstein]: for that other than i don't really
i mean i do what i can and

742
01:00:07,839 --> 01:00:11,811
[jim_gottstein]: but i wouldn't say it's been successful
and in a lot of ways i think

743
01:00:11,931 --> 01:00:12,914
[jim_gottstein]: things are getting worse

744
01:00:13,861 --> 01:00:18,228
[sean]: jim and we'll do what we can
to in terms of sharing links to purchase

745
01:00:18,709 --> 01:00:22,676
[sean]: your book through amazon and also directing
our listeners to go to your website your

746
01:00:22,736 --> 01:00:28,815
[sean]: law project for psychiatric rights a a
psyche writes um uh is it psycerites dot

747
01:00:28,876 --> 01:00:29,137
[sean]: com

748
01:00:33,066 --> 01:00:34,159
[jim_gottstein]: pyrites dot org

749
01:00:34,310 --> 01:00:38,356
[sean]: dot or okay thank you for correcting
me pycherites dot or anybody listening go down

750
01:00:38,416 --> 01:00:42,543
[sean]: to the show summary there's direct links
there i did go to that destination i

751
01:00:42,644 --> 01:00:46,470
[sean]: found a lot of your lectures and
your your interviews there's a lot of of

752
01:00:46,570 --> 01:00:51,355
[sean]: content there for anybody who wants to
to hear some of your speaking engagements and

753
01:00:51,936 --> 01:00:56,730
[sean]: a bunch of other people as well
so it's it's right for information one of

754
01:00:56,770 --> 01:00:59,935
[sean]: the things that i want add i
mean there's been a new law that was

755
01:01:00,015 --> 01:01:04,082
[sean]: passed in i think it was california
as it passed already think it's i think

756
01:01:04,122 --> 01:01:09,231
[sean]: it's a proposal a proposal because i've
seen some push back from doctors good and

757
01:01:09,391 --> 01:01:15,141
[sean]: and the specifics around that were you
know it gives the state of california authority

758
01:01:15,181 --> 01:01:22,233
[sean]: to remove the license of a medical
professional if they believe there spreading misinformation and

759
01:01:22,273 --> 01:01:28,263
[sean]: that's obviously extremely extremely concerning because one
of the things that we know is what

760
01:01:28,323 --> 01:01:34,930
[sean]: is believed to be established scientific fact
at any given tie i'm certainly could be

761
01:01:35,311 --> 01:01:35,811
[sean]: nothing more

762
01:01:36,306 --> 01:01:36,906
[jim_gottstein]: yeah

763
01:01:36,532 --> 01:01:41,897
[sean]: than just propaganda and i think when
where i look at it is like right

764
01:01:41,937 --> 01:01:49,640
[sean]: now people still accept the efficacy of
the chemical balance theory and that the anti

765
01:01:49,740 --> 01:01:55,286
[sean]: depressence work and they work by correcting
and underlying chemical and balance and so that

766
01:01:55,547 --> 01:02:01,644
[sean]: people believe that's established science ten you
could lose your license for having conversations just

767
01:02:01,724 --> 01:02:07,574
[sean]: like this and science is a process
it's an open process that includes free speech

768
01:02:08,115 --> 01:02:14,746
[sean]: and the ability to examine data makes
sense of it create new studies it's constantly

769
01:02:15,087 --> 01:02:19,735
[sean]: evolving and that's what i think makes
a free society is your ability to be

770
01:02:19,955 --> 01:02:29,334
[sean]: able to continue to test evelop hypothesis
gather information and really respect everyone's individual rights

771
01:02:30,115 --> 01:02:36,240
[sean]: so for our listeners in california that
is a b two zero nine eight and

772
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:41,529
[sean]: i believe gavin newsom has three weeks
to sign the bill but he has yet

773
01:02:41,649 --> 01:02:45,335
[sean]: to take a public position on it
and i think that was as of yesterday

774
01:02:45,535 --> 01:02:48,303
[sean]: which would be august dangerous first

775
01:02:50,187 --> 01:02:50,973
[jim_gottstein]: really dangerous

776
01:02:54,402 --> 01:03:00,633
[sean]: all right so we really took a
lot of your time jim before we conclude

777
01:03:00,693 --> 01:03:05,966
[sean]: right now are you hanging out there
on the island of maui you partially retired

778
01:03:06,107 --> 01:03:07,595
[sean]: at this this stage in the game

779
01:03:09,386 --> 01:03:19,358
[jim_gottstein]: so pretty much i think i did
my last litigation h a week or so

780
01:03:19,478 --> 01:03:24,747
[jim_gottstein]: ago but i'm although there's one type
of case that i would come out of

781
01:03:24,827 --> 01:03:31,769
[jim_gottstein]: retirement to do which is a medicated
fraud case against the psychiatric drugging of children

782
01:03:31,870 --> 01:03:37,932
[jim_gottstein]: in youth and there's information about that
on pychridestrata we could talk about it um

783
01:03:38,505 --> 01:03:44,128
[jim_gottstein]: m but i think that's potentially he
most effective way to stop the drugging of

784
01:03:44,208 --> 01:03:49,393
[jim_gottstein]: children but other than that i think
i'm done with litigation but i'm really involved

785
01:03:49,934 --> 01:03:58,239
[jim_gottstein]: in trying to m bring about alternatives
to the current paradime and so there was

786
01:03:58,319 --> 01:04:07,824
[jim_gottstein]: this last october the five october last
last year it was this international pure respite

787
01:04:07,904 --> 01:04:14,052
[jim_gottstein]: and soteria summit where seven hundred and
fifty people from forty countries came together over

788
01:04:14,354 --> 01:04:21,598
[jim_gottstein]: you know zoomicors and had really great
presentations and discussion about these alternative you know

789
01:04:21,658 --> 01:04:25,407
[jim_gottstein]: the ones why i'm talking about that
get eighty per cent recovery rates things like

790
01:04:25,447 --> 01:04:31,291
[jim_gottstein]: that and and i've gotten really involved
on kind of the you know trying to

791
01:04:32,395 --> 01:04:39,348
[jim_gottstein]: designated the person to try and do
it to create more of these pure respites

792
01:04:39,468 --> 01:04:46,609
[jim_gottstein]: and soteriahouses around the world to get
people people have those choices and as a

793
01:04:46,689 --> 01:04:53,060
[jim_gottstein]: legal matter people have the right to
the least restrictive in terms of psychiatric imprisonment

794
01:04:53,460 --> 01:05:00,539
[jim_gottstein]: and the least intrusive alternative with respect
for drugging m so it's really important to

795
01:05:00,579 --> 01:05:04,892
[jim_gottstein]: have these alternatives available so i'm i'm
working really hard on that and i'm on

796
01:05:04,932 --> 01:05:10,383
[jim_gottstein]: the board of for about a year
and a little over mind freedom international and

797
01:05:10,443 --> 01:05:16,631
[jim_gottstein]: there actually heading this summit thing but
they also have this program called the mind

798
01:05:16,691 --> 01:05:24,125
[jim_gottstein]: freedom shield when people are being faced
or threatened with psychiatric imprisonment or for drugging

799
01:05:24,566 --> 01:05:31,218
[jim_gottstein]: they can ask for this alert to
go out and have people really come together

800
01:05:31,419 --> 01:05:37,558
[jim_gottstein]: and put pressure to try and get
that stopped and it's hard now some success

801
01:05:37,638 --> 01:05:43,913
[jim_gottstein]: is not always successful but i really
support that effort and so i am on

802
01:05:44,033 --> 01:05:47,950
[jim_gottstein]: may i'm not on vacation


826
01:06:43,026 --> 01:06:48,694
[sean]: this is a human rights issue so
for all listeners out there jim got stein

827
01:06:48,794 --> 01:06:54,217
[sean]: has been a powerful force in being
able to protect the rights of those who

828
01:06:54,277 --> 01:07:00,451
[sean]: have been identified as psycheatrically or medically
ill but more and more importantly he's taken

829
01:07:00,512 --> 01:07:05,312
[sean]: his own personal risks to be able
to share information to be able to protect

830
01:07:05,352 --> 01:07:09,157
[sean]: the public and i think that's where
we're at as a radically genuine podcast and

831
01:07:09,197 --> 01:07:15,337
[sean]: trying to support a movement where there
is open dialogue and there's discussion where people

832
01:07:15,457 --> 01:07:20,346
[sean]: can make the best informed decisions for
their own health regardless of whether it's psychiatric

833
01:07:20,386 --> 01:07:25,644
[sean]: drugs i mean we've talked about this
shown with with the covid response and mandation

834
01:07:25,805 --> 01:07:29,811
[sean]: of vaccines and so forth it really
is a human rights issue so on a

835
01:07:29,871 --> 01:07:34,399
[sean]: podcast that wants to have these radically
genuine conversations you know were deeply appreciative for

836
01:07:34,459 --> 01:07:38,874
[sean]: having god stein as a guest jim
thank you so much for joining the radically

837
01:07:38,914 --> 01:07:39,657
[sean]: genuine podcast