Career Conversations | S1 EP3: Combatting Ageism in the Job Market

Show Notes

Combatting Ageism in the Job Market

with Elizabeth Atcheson (she/her)

In this discussion, Seattle career coach Elizabeth Atcheson reveals what ageism looks like in the hiring process and how to combat the stereotypes of an “older” worker. Whether you are 40 or 60, you will find helpful advice on how to harness your existing power as an experienced worker, use your network to get into interview pools, and land that role that you want.

Elizabeth Atcheson is a Seattle-based career coach who works with adults of all ages who are looking for jobs or changing careers. In addition to individual work with clients, she gives a variety of affordable workshops, including Level Up Your LinkedIn Profile, Combatting Ageism in the Job Market, Propel Your Professional Growth, and her popular monthly workshop, Tools for Transition.

Prior to becoming a career coach, Elizabeth built a 25-year marketing career, first in San Francisco and later in Seattle. She held roles in marketing, marketing communications, marketing strategy, account management, and B2B sales in a variety of for-profit and non-for-profit enterprises.

Elizabeth earned an undergraduate degree in Psychology from Stanford University and an M.B.A. from the Stanford University Graduate School of Business. She has two adult daughters and two baby grandsons on whom she lavishes attention.

Learn more at Blue Bridge Career Coaching.

Music by Lesfm from Pixabay

Creators and Guests

Host

Michaela Gormley

Michaela Gormley (she/her) is a proud alum of the University of Washington, graduating in 2009 from the Foster School of Business with a degree in Business Administration – Marketing and a minor in Spanish. She recently started a new role in tech sales after 10+ years in marketing. She served as a member of the UWAA GOLD (Graduates of the Last Decade) Council for two years, including one year leading the diversity, equity and inclusion subcommittee. As a proud member of the UW Alumni community and as a first-generation college student herself, Michaela is passionate about increasing the inclusivity and accessibility of higher education. She is excited to be back for the second round of UWAA Career Conversations and is grateful to be part of a resource that helps others achieve their personal and professional goals. In her free time, Michaela is an avid fan of Husky Athletics and has been a football season ticket holder since graduation. She loves spending time in the sunshine of Eastern Washington with her family and friends and prides herself on being a cool aunt to all of her nieces and nephews.

Guest

Elizabeth Atcheson

Elizabeth Atcheson is a Seattle-based career coach who works with adults of all ages who are looking for jobs or changing careers. In addition to individual work with clients, she gives a variety of affordable workshops, including Level Up Your LinkedIn Profile, Combatting Ageism in the Job Market, Propel Your Professional Growth, and her popular monthly workshop, Tools for Transition. Prior to becoming a career coach, Elizabeth built a 25-year marketing career, first in San Francisco and later in Seattle. She held roles in marketing, marketing communications, marketing strategy, account management, and B2B sales in a variety of for-profit and non-for-profit enterprises. Elizabeth earned an undergraduate degree in Psychology from Stanford University and an M.B.A. from the Stanford University Graduate School of Business. She has two adult daughters and two baby grandsons on whom she lavishes attention. Learn more at Blue Bridge Career Coaching.

What is Career Conversations ?

Frank conversations to help you take control of your career.

Going beyond resumes, interviews, and cover letters, each conversation brings a unique perspective on relevant topics for you and your professional development.

Presented by Pepsi, Career Conversations is produced by the University of Washington Alumni Association.

Learn more: https://www.washington.edu/alumni/career-conversations/

Thank you for tuning in to career conversations and audio series created for the University of Washington alumni community that focuses on deeper topics to help you create and sustain a fulfilling career.

I'm your host, Michaela Gormley. I'm a proud UW alum and graduated in 2009 from the Foster School of Business. I'm an active member of the UW alumni community and spent two years serving as a member of the UWAA gold council.

Today's topic is combating ageism in the job market, and I am thrilled to be joined in this conversation by Elizabeth Atcheson.

Elizabeth is a Seattle based career coach who has been working with job seekers of all ages for over 25 years. Her company in Seattle is called blue bridge career coaching. She has an undergraduate degree in psychology and an MBA both from Stanford, and has worked with the University of Washington Community and alumni for many years.

Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us. It's really fun to be here, Michaela. This is a juicy topic, and I'm looking forward to unpacking it with you.

Yes, I'm so excited to talk about it.

So today we're going to be talking specifically about combatting ageism when someone is looking for a new job or looking to make a career change. But when I've read your work or heard you speak about this topic in the past, I find that your strategies and tips are really great for anyone who's in career transition. So I think our conversation today will be really helpful for anyone who's listening regardless of their age. So to just start us off, can you give us a definition? Can you tell us what is ageism exactly? And just kind of tell us how you define that?

So I started noticing probably about 10 years ago that clients in my practice and people in my workshops who were 50 and over were taking a very long time to land new jobs. And so it's not that they never land new jobs, it's much, much longer. So I think that's one of the points about what happens when you experience ageism in the job market is that it's, you know, job hunting can be a very frustrating experience with lots of UPS and lots of Downs.

Sure when you get an interview down, when you're not selective. Yeah, exactly.

And so I started kind of taking a more systematic approach to looking at what was happening to my clients as they approached 50 and then when they were over 50. And it and by the way, in terms of when ageism kicks in, yeah, it kicks in as you're approaching 50. So in that sort of run up to age 50, you will start noticing that you're not getting as many interviews, you're not landing jobs as easily as you once did. But in some industries, ageism kicks in even earlier. And I would say the two industries where ageism starts to be felt in the early 40s are, well, three industries really tech, marketing and entertainment, entertainment fashion, design, marketing and tech. Though those are the industries where you're going to have to start really stiffing yourself to get attention as a job seeker when you're over 40. I will tell you what it looks like from a job seekers point of view. OK, so this and I'm going to use the name that although that wasn't his real name. Ok? that was and a very experienced and very professional learning and development professional. So he had two graduate degrees in organizational design and organizational learning and development. And wow, OK. He had great experience with some brand name employers here in Seattle, and he was looking for a new job. And he came to one of my workshops and that was the first time that I met him. And, you know, shared with the group how frustrating it was that he kept applying for jobs. He was really qualified for, but and getting in the interview pool, but not getting the job. And about a year later, he came to see me, and at that time I thought, oh, this is going to be a diagnostic sort of situation where I talk to him about what he says when he's asked certain interview questions because he's not getting the interviews. But it wasn't like, I'm not being selected right, getting the interview and not being selected. And I realized almost right away that this guy was as authentic and polished a professional. As you could imagine. And he wasn't arrogant. Sometimes that's the problem. No arrogance. He was appropriately humble and conversational and collaborative and shared, you know, the credit for things with other people. And that's when he and I realized that what was going on was ageism. And so there are few clues.

The first clue is that you get interviews, but you don't get the offer. The second clue is that when you ask why you didn't get the offer, they can't come up with any reason. What they say is, and this is almost for me, diagnostic of ageism. They say it was a really hard decision. Oh, because there's nothing they can say, right? There's nothing solid. There's no solid reason. They essentially what happens. And I've been able to do a little bit of sleuthing on a few cases where we'll go back, you know, two months later, three months later, and we'll see that the person who was hired essentially had very similar qualifications, but was just 10 years younger. So that's what it looks like from the point of view of a job seeker. Is that you?

The other thing that you often will be told is that you're overqualified, and that's why they're not like they'll do a screen of you. But then they'll say, well, we decided not to put you in the interview pool because we feel you're overqualified. So that's another sort of tip to the fact that you're experiencing ageism.

Now, employers know that ageism is illegal, right?

They know that. So they're never going to admit that the reason that you weren't offered the job or didn't get into the interview pool. But so so we don't have any good research on the prevalence of ageism. I know as a career coach doing this, you know, full time for many years. It is endemic. It is absolutely consistent across the workforce that people start experiencing ageism. What we do have data on is the stereotypes of older workers.

OK Yeah. So tell me, because it sounds like it's hard to really nail down what it looks like all the time, right? Because it's not it's not sort of above the surface, it's people. It's kind of hints you have to pick up on or things you have to sleuth out, like you said. So tell me about some of what those stereotypes or assumptions are that you think are causing people to be ageist when they're looking to hire.

Yeah and and it's interesting the way you said that to causing people to be ages. I think it is often almost unconscious on the part of people.

Sure, sure. I think they never set out to say, let's take the older people out of this. Let's do that right. But but but it occurs. And so there's something inside people.

So research shows there are six stereotypes well, six primary stereotypes of older workers. And maybe as we go through them, I can also tell you how to combat them as a job seeker.

Oh yeah, that sounds great, because that's why we're here, right? Combat that, not to just tell us what it is, but to see how or to figure out ways we can. We can fight against it. So, so yeah, let's go through some of the stereotypes and then how we can work to fight against those. Awesome

So the first stereotype is that older workers have less energy. Get tired more easily.

Interesting Yeah.

So then what? A way to combat this is to include active hobbies and interests in so, for example, at the end of year about section on LinkedIn, you could have a sentence like when I'm not working, I love to, you know, I love to hike in the beautiful Cascades or something like that instead of noting, you know, I love to do needlepoint or watch Netflix with my dog curled up in my lap, right?

Right, which is great. I love doing that, too.

We love, we all love to do that site. Active hobbies. And then in an interview, let's say you've had an all day series of interviews. Maybe some panel interviews at the end of the day. Don't even jokingly say who? How is a long day? I'm looking forward to getting home and putting my feet up instead. You want to say something like, I am so energized by the conversations I've had today with everyone on the team. I wish I were starting here first thing tomorrow morning.

So it's great to, yeah, think of ways to flip the stereotype and present yourself as an active, energetic person.

The second stereotype is that older workers are less tech savvy. And so and that is one that is very easy to combat. I mean, spruce up, figure out what the skills are, the tech skills for the jobs that you want to get and make sure that you have certificates or, you know, designations of some of the higher level skills in those areas of technology that are important for the jobs you want and then make sure they're on your resume, make sure they're on your LinkedIn. And you could also in your cover letter when you have bullet points for the ways in which you'll add value. One of those bullet points could be something like I'm especially skilled with, with adapting technology to meet emerging needs in organizational systems or whatever, whatever they're specifically calling.

Calling that out, specifically calling it out.

Exactly you do have to sort of draw people's attention to it. Yeah and I mean, the other thing, so another and this is sort of related to that stereotype is that older workers are set in their ways and resistant to change. So to combat that in and have a lot of change driving content in your resume and in your LinkedIn, so have bullet points, especially in your most two jobs that convey your interest in driving change. So overhauled company wide. Process for xy z, you know, resulting in blah blah blah or I mean, if you can, if you can use the two words digital transformation somewhere in there or included as one of your strengths, because digital transformation is something that sort of happens on an ongoing basis in all these organizations. And if you can own that as one of your stronger points, both in your resume and LinkedIn, but also in the answers to interview questions. So when you're asked in interviews, you tell me about a time when you did such and such. Sure have a couple of stories that relate directly to driving change, using technology and boom. That is going to come. That is going to blow up that stereotype. Right? that one and the less tech savvy stereotype. So we're getting a two for one there. Two birds with one stone with that.

OK, so so what else?

So another stereotype is that they will that older workers will work only a few years and then will retire. And so one thing that's incredibly important, even in the early stages of your job search, when you're reaching out to people you know and people in your network don't ever, ever, ever mention your hoped for retirement date. Because even if you mention it to someone, you consider a friend, that friend has the ability to make a referral for you to somebody who works at an employer you'd like to work for. And you never want to have your plans for retirement embodied in the overall profile of you.

Right, right. Yeah, just don't ever mention it.

And then you can also do things proactively in your interview like, say, wow, this. This job is exactly the kind of job that I have been looking for and would love to make a long term commitment to, so you can sort of weave in the word long term commitment.

Sure and and it's interesting because this stereotype in a weird way relates to the next stereotype, which is that younger employees consider older employees as opportunity blockers.

Interesting Yeah.

So particularly if you're being interviewed by someone younger, which you often are, if you're 50 years old, you're probably going to be interviewed by someone who's younger. And the important thing there is don't ask questions about, you know, what are the opportunities for professional growth in this company?

Sure upward mobility is not a question to ask.

Exactly don't even hint at your interest in upward mobility or professional growth. Really make it clear this is the job you want. These are the skills you want to use this. This is exactly what you've been looking for, and you would hope to stay here for a really long time and leave it at that. Ok? if you are without asking that question in that way, if you are interested in what the potential upward mobility is for a position, right? Because if you're 50 or in your early 50s, you might not want to stay in that exact position for the next, however long until you retire.

Are there any ways to? Find out that information, I guess, without or do you have any tips of sort of figuring that out without directly asking?

Yeah, now that's a really good question, Michaela. I don't think you can ever ask it verbally. Sure I think you can do is go to the employers page on LinkedIn and study the profiles of people. Just click, go to the employers page and then click on People and then skim through, go through. You'll be able to tell by the pictures when you reach people who are sort of mid-career and older and look at their profiles and see whether they're have, whether they have been able to secure promotions in seeking out that employer. And I think that's probably really the only way.

Sure

you know, and it's funny since you asked that question. I even advise younger job seekers not to ask that question directly. And the reason is that when an employer is looking to hire, they want someone for that position.

Right and and I hate this sounds sort of crass, but at that moment, they don't care about your professional growth. You're the one who has to care about your profession, right?

Yeah and so what I usually say to people is, look, look at other people in the company and whether there have been promotions in, you know, at that employer and you'll get a pretty just skimming through the people on LinkedIn, you'll get a pretty good idea of how that works. The question, though, that you can ask is the question about professional development, not professional growth, but professional development. Does the employer have a budget each year so that employees can attend professional development? Sure, symposia or take certificates, learning new skills or brushing up on?

Yeah, most relevant topics, that sort of thing.

Yes, and that is a really good question to ask if you're a younger speaker or an older job seeker because it signals that you want to stay right on top of right. On top of all the latest and, you know, sort of best practices in your field.

Yeah, great. Did we did we cover all of the stereotypes, or do you have any others for us?

So I mean, the only other one, but we've sort of COVID it is that there's that older employers, the employees have obsolete skills. And I think the way to combat that stereotype is to make sure that you are in your resume and in your LinkedIn and in your interview answers and cover letters that you are using the current jargon for your field. So and where you'll find that jargon is in the job postings because the job postings like if you look at a random sample of job postings from, say, 10 years ago, you'll see that the jargon develops over time, right? You know, it might. It might once have been chief human resources officer now its chief people officer. I mean, and there are many, many examples like that where the jargon keeps evolving and you, as an older job seeker, need to use that older jar, that newer jargon.

Right, right.

So, yeah, I think we've covered and in having this conversation, Michaela, about combating the stereotypes. What I hope we've really conveyed is that you have to be proactive. You can't just like you can't just let this knowledge sink into your brain and then say, OK, now I know what all the stereotypes are. That's not enough. You actually have to do some stuff. And I hope we've laid it out specifically enough so that people will know what they actually have to do.

Yeah, I hope so.

So just to kind of say what they are again, because I think it's such a good list is some of the stereotypes are that older workers might have less energy, might be less tech savvy and sort of resistant to change. That they might only want to work for a few years and then retire, we talked a lot about that one that they might be opportunity blockers for younger employees and then what we just talked about that their skills might be obsolete.

And I think you gave us lots of great tips for sort of how to balance those and fight against them when we're looking for out there in the job market, I think there were a lot of great tips in there. Do you are there anything else that doesn't necessarily line up with one of those stereotypes perfectly, but things you would suggest that people can do or things they should think about to fight against ageism?

I think the most important thing that an older job seeker or career changer can do is to do some really serious reflection and strategic research before deciding what jobs you're going to target. OK you're as a job seeker, whether you're young or not so young, your job is to identify your most valuable and rare skills that are needed by employers. And in essence, job seekers need to map themselves to the economic landscape. And as an older job seeker, that is even more important because it's going to take you longer to find your next job than it would a younger job seeker. And one thing that will help you get a job faster is to offer up a set of skills that employers need. So what you want to identify is the fields and occupations that are growing as opposed to shrinking.

Sure, that makes sense.

And then if you don't have the skills to go into those fields or occupations, well, by golly, go and get those skills. It's a lot of over 50 job seekers have done just that and very teamed up and created a website that is opportunity. LinkedIn very easy to learn. No opportunity, LinkedIn.

I'm writing it down for myself here.

So yeah, it's one that sort of everyone should look at basically what they did. And so this was in the spring of 2020. They identified the jobs where there was the biggest gap between the number of openings and the number of applicants. And then they linked that with the learning that would allow you to be qualified to job to apply for those jobs.

That's fascinating.

So it's a terrific website. And I in the last year and a half, I have been pointing many, many older job seekers to that website with great success. They have indeed brushed up their skills, made themselves much more hireable. So that that's probably and that's something that an older job seekers should do at the beginning of the process is to, you know, in essence, map yourself to the economic landscape.

Yeah, I love that. I love that phrase that you use. Map yourself to the economic landscape.

Yeah, it's wonderful. It's very strategic. It's really, I mean, it's a heady thing to do. You really have to think very hard, you know, and frankly, read the business section of your regional, you know, paper. Read the National papers business section. I mean, really try, you know, Bloomberg, Business Insider. There's so many great sites for finding business insights and just, you know, do that research so that you have a better understanding in the place where you live, what employers need, what it is they're hiring for. Related to this, and we've sort of already referred to this is getting professional development.

So OK, if there's a growing area that would require you to get a certificate. In, say, data analysis, go and do that if these certificates are incredibly differentiating for a job seeker. They really just say, hey, I've got boots on the ground, I am doing, I am doing this and I have a certificate or will have a certificate to show it. And by the way, this is a little tiny tip. This is a day you enroll, the day you enroll in that certificate program, you put it on your resume and your like, oh, yeah, that's great, too. Yeah, you thought of that. You say certificate and data analysis from E Cornell or whatever the education offering is from currently enrolled with certificate expected March 2022 or June 20, 2002.

Right so you get the benefit of that credential while you're still enrolled in at. That's very smart. I also think that professional development or taking courses, getting certificates adds a little bit of confidence to a job seeker to right. It reminds them I can learn new things. I am good at things, you know, gets them excited about stuff because looking for a new job can be really disheartening sometimes. And having that skill and feeling like it's fresh and knowing that you do have the most up to date skill and your. Sort of in the mix with everyone else, I think just giving that little bit of confidence can be a big booster to you.

Oh my gosh, Michaela, that is such a great point. It it is very discouraging and destabilizing to be a job seeker, especially if you have the misfortune of being a job seeker for many months or even over a year.

Right and you're absolutely right that when you enroll in something and you're interacting with other students and interacting with the instructor and interacting with the advisory board for that professional development opportunity, that it does lift your spirits, you sort of feel I'm in the game, right?

That, of course, is another really important thing for any job seeker. You want to bring that feeling of comfort and confidence into the room, whether it's a Zoom or teams room or actual room, lots of virtual rooms these days, lots of virtual rooms and I will. That also brings me to another item that is important for older job seekers and that has to do with your appearance.

Oh wow, OK. It's it is important to update your appearance and you want to think about the three scenes you want to look and feel current, confident and comfortable. Those are the three C's for four, really for all job seekers, but especially for older job seekers. So for what I recommend, we all have that friend who always looks like a million bucks, right?

Yeah, Yeah.

Reach out to that friend like they always have. They style their clothes really well, or they just have that knack to put the perfect piece of jewelry on or their hair always looks more, you know, relevant and that lighter. I mean, so reach out to that friend and say, hey, look, I'm about to start a job search. I know I need help. Would you give me some help even just with a, you know, a couple? All you really need for the interview process is maybe two or three outfits kind of mix and match type stuff. And then talk to a hairstylist. I, I always recommend to older job seekers that they make the effort to cover the gray because as much as we want to not believe it, it is true that gray hair, even a little bit of gray hair, just reminds people that you're older and you don't need that reminder. They're going to figure it out anyway. So just I would update your appearance, your haircut, maybe color. Make your outfits a little more current. Make sure you're comfortable because when you go into an interview, you've got to be 100% Don't wear a brand new outfit that you're sort of shifting and tugging at and tugging at it.

Yeah, you don't want to be tugging. Oh gosh. And then I like the other thing I like those three C's current confident.

Yeah, the three C's should help current comfortable and confident. And then as a final sort of thing, you can use screens in like just go to YouTube and type in, you know, tips for older people on video interviews. And there are some things on YouTube who would have thought, I know it's so helpful and that will help you because there are some filters and just some tips on lighting and positioning of your laptop that will also be really helpful to you. Sure sure. Not necessarily making yourself look different or not true to who you are, but just presenting yourself in the best way.

Yeah, in the best light possible literally and figuratively, literally and figuratively, that's possible. So I like that. I like that. OK any, any other just general tips for us on how we can get out there or people can get out there in the job market and try to fight against ageism that they might be facing.

I think the last strategy that I employ almost always with older job seekers is and it doesn't have the greatest name, but this is what it is. It's called being a vulture where you want to work and what it means is finding a way to work side by side, even if it's pro Bono. And I like that word pro Bono as opposed to volunteer. Mm-hmm Just one day a week. So if you are truly out of work, I advise job seekers to offer one day a week. Pro Bono to an employer, a big employer, because that way there'll be more openings as time goes by doing the thing that you do, bring your skills to that employer and you want to be strategic with who you reach out to. And as I said, you definitely want to target an older employer and one, sorry, a bigger, not an older employer, a bigger employer, so that there will be more jobs opening over time. What happens when you put yourself side by side with people in the same field or occupation that you're targeting? They see the value that you bring. And that way, when two things happen, either when a job does open up, you will go into the interview pool and it just increases your chances of being hired or. And I've seen this happen, and it's such a beautiful thing. They will create a job for you because they realize, wow, you really have great skills. You're super reliable and we'd love to hire you. Let's see if we can put together a job description that matches what you would most like to do.

That's a beautiful moment for an older job seeker, and it does happen, right?

Yeah, they recognize your value and say, we're going to find a way to get you on our team, even if it means we have to create something.

Yeah, exactly.

And you know, even if and I've seen this happen to, even if they say, hey, you know, initially we can only afford you 25 to 30 hours a week, that is that good? Your answer to that is yes, that is good. 25 to 30 hours is better than zero. Right and it just makes it that much more likely that you'll be tapped for full time work or that they'll simply expand your responsibilities.

Sure

you know, Michaela, I've been thinking that one of the things we haven't covered is one of the biggest assets that older job seekers have is your network. And this is something younger job seekers don't have. So you have an app that job seekers don't have? Yeah, I bet this is where you're going and I wanted to talk to you, so I'm glad we're on the same page. Is we've talked a little bit about resumes and LinkedIn, but how do we use linkedin? Better and how do people use it to their advantage, what are some ways to really get yourself out there because LinkedIn can be it's sort of AI don't even know the word for it. It can be a little bit intimidating sometimes if you're not really versed in the ways that you can make it work for you.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I think a lot of older job seekers view LinkedIn as the historical record of all my accomplishments. You know, almost like go in the Library of Congress or something like that. And what you want to do is literally flip your perspective around and start thinking of LinkedIn as a marketing tool for you. And there's some great courses online on LinkedIn. I offer a workshop on LinkedIn that the first Tuesday of every month. And yeah, and that really does help people use LinkedIn in a more intentional and marketing oriented way. What what LinkedIn lets you do as an older job seeker is leverage your network and I. So for all job seekers, not just older job seekers, I recommend that once you know what, you're targeting the job titles of interest to you, the employers, you might want to work for the types of roles you're especially interested in. I have all job seekers send individualized emails to almost everyone in their personal and professional network, letting those people know, hey, I'm looking, I'd love your advice and suggestions. I'm starting to explore my next steps. I don't have people use the phrase looking for a job. What I do have people use is more a phrase like I'm looking around. The landscape has changed a lot in the last year and a half since the pandemic began. I've been looking around and exploring my next steps and then get specific with that person and ask if they have any ideas for you.

So and one of this here's where some of this LinkedIn, when you start talking about LinkedIn, I think it's important to share some statistics with our listeners here. Are you doing ok?

Yes so this is the first one is stunning to me, and that is that 60% of new jobs are landed because of a referral from a former or current colleague.

Wow 60%

60% That is a stunning statistic statistic. And you as an older job seeker listening to this session, you have so many former clients, right? That's a huge pool of people. That's a huge asset, like you were saying. Yes, it's a huge asset. Reach out to them. Don't make the mistake of reaching out to them in a sort of group email because when you send group emails, people, they don't feel the responsibility or the interest in replying. They're just like, oh, there she is on a fishing expedition. I'm not going to respond. I can delete this email.

Sure Yeah. Individual email and naked, personalized.

Yeah, they will respond. That I think that also ties back into what you were saying about starting with reflection and really knowing what you're looking for or what your interests might be, what direction you sort of want to head because that makes those conversations. Feel more purposeful and less like a fishing expedition, right? If I send someone an email that says, hey, I'm interested in seeing what the market looks like and they might reply and say, OK, what? What exactly are you looking for? How can I help if I don't have an answer to that? It's sort of goes nowhere, right? They can't just say, OK, let me tell you every job that might ever be available.

Right, right. You have to help them help you a little bit by knowing what direction you're interested.

Absolutely I love that phrase, help them help you. That's absolutely the phrase, help them help you by being specific And so doing that reflect prepared reflection and research at the beginning of the process is just so important. Here's another statistic.

I love these statistics.

Two more. So if you look at job applications, overall, 7% of them are attached to a referral, whether it's an internal referral at that employer or an external referral. 7% isn't too high. Right? but if you look at hires, overall, 40% of hires are attached to either an internal referral or an external referral. And this is where the older seeker can shine because you have those referrals. You know, people, it's not just the people in your personal and professional network. It's what LinkedIn calls your second degree connections and your job is an older job seeker is to research those second degree connections you have that could help you get into interview pools. So what I mean by second degree connections is, let's say, you know, Maya is a former colleague of yours and Maya has a Maya is connected on LinkedIn with someone you don't know who works in the Department you'd like to get in into at XYZ. Sure, you can ask Maya to introduce you if she would be comfortable introducing you to that person she knows. And then you go have an informational meeting with them. And then when a job opens up, she is this that internal person is able to refer you to that job. So that makes sense. There's a lot of work to be done, but it starts with those individualized messages to everyone in your network. And then by sprucing up your LinkedIn and making sure that the key words and phrases in the job postings of interest to you that those key words and phrases are woven throughout your LinkedIn profile.

OK, Yeah. So so looking at those job titles, looking at those job descriptions and sort of gleaning the language that they're using. And then and then using that. To sort of mirror back so that people looking at your profile will say this person has the skills and. No knowledge that we're looking for.

Exactly, yeah, it's a process of matching or mirroring. And there are a couple of websites that help with that. OK one is Jobscan echo CEO and another one is Carmen echo. And both of those websites free will allow you to upload the job posting and upload your resume, and they'll tell you how good the match is.

Oh, that's cool.

Yeah, it's pretty the magic of the internet, and that's why we have to stay tech savvy. I know exactly how much good stuff out there.

Well, and interestingly, that process of identifying job postings that are of interest to you is, I mean, that's something any job seeker has to do. But the sooner you do it in your process so that your self marketing materials, your resume and your LinkedIn can mirror those job postings, the better luck you will have. That's great, that's great.

Yeah OK, we've talked a lot about the Dos, the things that we should be doing, that older job seekers should be doing to try to combat ageism as they're looking for new jobs or changing careers. Are there any quick tips of don'ts things that people should or excuse me, shouldn't do things they should avoid? Phrases, things, the ante tips, if you will.

Yeah, the a the things not to do. What not. Yes, there are.

Help us avoid the pitfalls and the red flags.

Yeah so I'll spend down a few of those. One thing I frequently see is a kitchen, a kitchen sink approach, you know, as you may or a link or a LinkedIn where you can tell that the job seeker is like, you know what? I've done so many things, I'm just going to put them all out there and they'll see how versatile I am. They'll see how many skills I have. That does not work. The Kitchens, everything but the kitchen sink approach doesn't work. So really hone, really streamline your resume and LinkedIn. So it's just showcasing the skills and experience that are directly relevant to the direction you want to go. So that's probably the biggest mistake. I see old your job seekers make. They also will use words in there about section on LinkedIn. They'll say seasoned something or other and seasoned. No, you can. It's OK if a turkey is seasoned. I was going to say we like a good seasoned meal, seasoned meal, like a well seasoned meal. But we don't want a seasoned job seeker. No, thank you. One, don't we already mentioned, which is to ever even once mention your hoped for retirement date. Just put that out of your mind. Another pitfall is to use your salary history or even recent salary as a guide to your future salary. Your salary history is literally 100% irrelevant. What is relevant is the salary that employer. Is willing to pay for that job, and the way you find that out is you literally type into Google again, the magic of the internet. You Google salary for research analyst at Gaetz Foundation in Seattle. So you type in the exact job title, the exact employer and the exact location. And then Google will pinpoint the information for you at all of the. There are so many different salary sites, there's Glassdoor. LinkedIn has salary, data, pay, scale, salary, Volcom. There are a lot of salary websites. Let let Google do the work for you, and then you'll be able to identify a range that is in the comfortably in the middle of all those numbers. And then that's when they ask you what your salary expectations are. That's your answer. Is the range they pay for that job?

Sure and the wording is my research suggests you want to make it very sort of conditional in case you way off. Right?

Yeah. My research suggests that the salary for this position is in the range from 60 to 70, and that range is great for me or something like that.

Sure so just and this is painful, I think, because people, especially who have been working for many years, you know, they sort of feel like, oh, I've earned the ability to be at this salary level. That's just not reality. I think there can be some magical thinking, sometimes with older employees who've worked really hard to get to a certain salary level and you just have to put. You just have to be realistic and see what employers are paying for the jobs you're qualified for. Right? a couple of more specific don'ts.

Yeah don't use any dates prior to 2000 1,000 in your experience section on LinkedIn or in your resume, either. And then don't put the dates on your degrees. The only thing you can put dates on is your recent certificates or courses.

Got it!

Yeah, and people say, well, it doesn't that seem inconsistent? I'm like, yeah, it is inconsistent, but that's the way it is. know what? No, you graduated from college in 1978 or 1983 or whatever.

Yeah, right?

Yeah, that's it's OK to be inconsistent on purpose, right?

Yeah, Yeah. I got the certificate in 2020. But you don't need to know what I was doing in 1992. That's not. It's no longer relevant at this point in the job seeking. I like that framing Michaela. I'm being I'm being inconsistent on purpose.

All right. I really like that. That's hard for people like me who work in marketing. And we yes, we get all of our value from our consistency. We love consistency.

Oh my gosh. Absolutely so you don't you also, as an older job seeker, want to kind of update their email provider if for any reason you're still using, God forbid, AOL. But if your Hotmail or Yahoo just update to something like Gmail or Outlook or me or Mac or one of the more sort of up to date email providers and you can always forward your if you still use a Hotmail, you can have that forward to Gmail, right? So that your display, email is, is your Gmail, but you don't have to. Make sure that you don't have to get rid of that old one and make sure that everyone has your new email address.

Yeah well, or you do have to be careful, though, because sometimes when it's a foreword, I have noticed with clients that I've advised about this. I've noticed that the original email sometimes still shows.

Oh, that's a good point. It depends. One thing you can do is just, you know, keep using, let's say it's Hotmail, but you have keep using your Hotmail for your personal and then switch over to the new one for all your stuff.

Yeah, that's a great tip. You don't ever want to mention anything personal, especially like a visit from your grandson. That wouldn't be a good idea. And then finally, I guess the last note is to use, you know, in your interviews, you're going to be asked for examples of things you've done. Tell us about stories from your jobs. I really encourage people to only cite it or tell stories that are less than five years old. If you go back 15 years, God forbid, or 20 years, that can really. It really can age you. And that's actually true for most, for all ages of interviewers.

Right? you want to use as recent examples as you can, generally speaking.

Sure So I think that's it on the don'ts.

OK, that's good. Luckily, there are more Do's than Yes. Yes, we like lots of positive tips. Those are super. Yes so we've talked a little bit or a lot about just sort of putting your best foot forward on your resume on your LinkedIn. Are there any best practices that people should keep in mind when they're thinking about how to present themselves using those tools? Or do you think we've sort of already covered all of that?

I think probably what I would say to that question, Michaela, is that LinkedIn is so powerful for you that it is absolutely worth investing serious time in making your LinkedIn profile as good as it can be. And you know, one let's start with your profile photo. A Glassdoor study showed that recruiters and hiring managers spent almost 20% of their profile review time looking at the profile photo itself.

Oh Wow.

I know that's 19.7% to be exact. Wow and so and what you really want is a smiling photo and a smiling photo where your teeth are showing, because when you're smiling without your teeth showing, it looks uncomfortably like a smirk.

So, Oh yeah, really want a smiling photo?

And if you are older, you know, it definitely might be worthwhile having a professional shot taken where they do a little bit of airbrushing just to, you know, soften the soften the little lines here, then I would be a fan of that.

Great and then, yeah, go ahead.

Well, there's also I know At a lot of networking events. They will have come get your headshot at this event, and those could be a great tool for people who are looking to update that picture, putting on a nice jacket and showing up to one of those events. You kind of get a two for one like we were talking about earlier, but it's a great networking event and also could get a new LinkedIn headshot.

Yes, and UW has done exactly that. Her rad UW alumni services, they have made arrangements to have LinkedIn headshot photographers at their events. And speaking of uw, please, please, please make use of your fellow alums. And this is, you know, using fellow alums in a job search is one of the tried and true strategies for all job seekers young, middle and older. It's especially valuable when you contact. So, for example. Kayla was in the School of business, the Foster School of Business. I would if she were in a job search, I would encourage her to reach out to people who also were in the Foster School of Business. So whatever department you were in or school you were in. Alumni from those schools can be especially helpful to you. And just generally speaking, showing up at events is also a way to expand your network. And there's a lot of research on how. The people you don't know yet can't. At the beginning of a job search, you don't know them, then you meet them during your job search, maybe at a UW alumni event. And Lo and behold, that person becomes the vector to your next job. So just making sure to connect him with your alumni network, with the alumni office and staff they alumni services is incredibly helpful in a job search in all kinds of different ways.

Yeah, Yeah. The AA has so many different great events throughout the year. That's a great, a great plug for you to AA. But but I think it's easy to plug because it's true and it's a great way to connect with people that maybe you did know while you were in school, but also people that you didn't know that were there at a different time or you just never met. But you still have that sense of community and camaraderie with them that they're often I find open to at least having a conversation or connecting you with someone who they know that might be able to help.

Mm-hmm Absolutely those secondary connections again. And it's I don't know. But often universities have within their career services area. They may have some help for alumni as well. So that's kind of in addition to what alumni services can do. I don't happen to know what they are specifically for you, but I'm sure there's something because UW has a pretty remarkable career services area.

Yeah, Yeah. OK so as we're sort of wrapping up our conversation, if there was one thing that you could or that you would hope people would take away from this conversation, something to stick with them as they're thinking about it and working on making a career change and trying to fight against ageism that they might be experiencing. What what would your big takeaway be?

Oh my gosh, that is such a great question, Michaela. I think that so what I said earlier about that. It takes older job longer to cross the bridge of career transition, if you will. What older job seekers have is a sort of perspective and stamina and wisdom that younger seekers don't have. I mean, we've lived life. We know stuff that younger people don't. And so what I routinely see is that the persistence, the strategy, the intention, the thoughtfulness, the ability to reach out to other people, the ability to get other people on your team to help you and give you referrals and introductions. This is something that older seekers truly are skilled at in a way that younger seekers just can't be. And I will say that although it does take longer, it does happen. So older seekers do get jobs. It just takes longer. So know that it will happen for you, especially if you, you know, do all the best practices that we've talked about. Just know that it will happen and that it's so worthwhile. So several years ago, I, a woman, attended one of my workshops who had been a very high level fundraiser for one of the big performing arts organizations in Seattle. And she had a big salary and she was in her 50s, and she had applied for other fundraising jobs and wasn't getting them. And she ended up making a career pivot, and she now drives an access bus for the metro so that access are the smaller buses that let that take disabled people to doctor's appointments and other engagements and things like that, right? And she reached out to me and told me how filled with joy. She was in her new job. It was so different from what she had been doing. Yes, her salary was less. But it it was just invigorating for her, she said that people that she had these wonderful interactions with people she picked up and she was seeing a whole different side of life. And you know, sometimes that is the outcome. You know you, you end up doing something different than you originally thought. And frankly, the gig economy makes so many more things possible than were possible, say, 10 years ago.

Yeah and they're there. Also, all kinds of options for remote work, just Google best remote work options, and you'll go crazy with the options.

Yeah, we're learning that for sure. Especially in the last two years or so, we've been learning a lot about remote work.

Elizabeth, if people want to find you, how can how can they find you if they want to work with you, learn from you or just hear more about all of this wise wisdom that you're there, you're sharing with us here today.

Thanks, Michaela. So my website is https://www.bluebridgecoaching.com. And just go to that website. You can read all about my workshops and my individual work with clients. The three workshops I give are the sort of most comprehensive workshop is called tools for transition, and I give that in an all day session on Saturdays and then a four part session spread over 4 Tuesdays and Thursdays each month. OK my second workshop is level up your LinkedIn profile. Oh, I give that the first Tuesday of each month from four to six PM Pacific time and it's $49 and it really will help you level up your LinkedIn profile, just as the title says. And then my third, my third workshop is combating ageism in the job market. A very familiar topic, something we know about now, something we now know about. And I give that the first Wednesday of each month, also from 4:00 to six PM for $49 but go to my website and you'll see everything there.

OK, that sounds great. Well, thank you, Elizabeth. So much for joining us. I know I learned a lot and I know that people who are listening today are going to learn a lot as well, whether or not they're an older job seeker who is looking to make a change or really anyone, people of all ages who are in the job market and trying to find something that's a good fit for them. So I'm just so grateful to be able to spend the time with you and glad to glad to chat with you and thank you so much for your time.

Oh Michaela, it has been so lovely talking to you, and good luck to all you. UW alumni out there. You're going to do it.

They're going to do it. We all. We believe in them.

We do.

All right. Thanks so much. And Thanks to all of you for tuning in to career conversations. This series is one of many programs and events created and supported by the University of Washington Alumni Association. It helps keep alumni, students and friends connected to the University and to each other. If you haven't already, you can create your profile on Husky Landing, the professional networking platform designed specifically for the UW community. Husky Landing's algorithm makes it easy to meet fellow Huskies based on your shared backgrounds and interests. Built in tools make it simple to engage with others, join or initiate conversations, find career resources, workshops and more. It's a great tool built just for the UW community. If you are on LinkedIn, you can join the UW alumni group. It has more than 35,000 members, and it's another great tool to make UW connections throughout the year. The UWAA creates and promotes helpful career content and workshops, so be sure to look out for those opportunities on Husky Landing and at UWalum.com I'm your host, Michaela Gormley. Thanks so much for listening and Go Dawgs!