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Hi everyone. It has been a while

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and I'm sorry that I have not been

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on here, but I'm very grateful

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and excited to be returning

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to the show

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with another organizer

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who's up to really incredible work

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and really incredible creative

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endeavors that we're going to get

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into shortly.

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But without further

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ado, welcome.

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Ali, welcome to the show.

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Hi.

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Thanks for having me.

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No, thank you for taking the time.

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I know it's a little earlier on the

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side of the country.

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So, Ellie, can you ground us a

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little bit on your sort of work?

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I know you're an incredible

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disability justice organizer,

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artists, community builder,

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and I know you hold a lot of titles.

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But I'm curious, you know, what

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values anchor your work

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and kind of like what are the values

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that make you wake up every

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day and continue to do this type of

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work?

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I don't know if I would call them

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values per say, but the things

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that really drive me is just

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I really just want to affirm

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and celebrate and

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care for multiple marginalized

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bipoc particularly disabled

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bipoc

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just to really get the message

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across that, you know,

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you are not alone.

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It may feel like that sometimes.

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I know a lot of disabled people

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or a lot of bipoc living

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in certain parts of the country feel

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very isolated and othered.

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And a lot of my work is about

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reassuring you that you are

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not alone.

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There are other people who empathize

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with you who are going through

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similar things, not the exact same

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things, but please never

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feel like you are the only one

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out there.

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And plus, I just want to remind

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people that we all have, like, power

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and agency,

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not necessarily in, like, the same

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amounts, obviously,

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but we all do have some

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degree of power in agency

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and whatever way we can find

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to exercise, that is

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just super important

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to moving forward in life.

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I don't know. Those are just like

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very fancy ways of being like,

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that's my way of loving on people.

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So that's that's really

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a lot of what my work is driven by.

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Yes.

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I'm a

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this this notion of care,

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which I feel like we've all been

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thinking more expansively

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of what care means through this

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pandemic.

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I think seeing all the displays of

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mutual aid of

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folks sort of reimagining like

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how we show up for one another and

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ourselves and these times,

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yeah, like even for myself, it makes

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me think a lot about what care means

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and like what how we embody

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care.

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I'm also on that on that note,

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Ali, I'm thinking around the ways in

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which through this pandemic, through

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COVID 19,

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I think by masses,

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we are consciously thinking a lot

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more about

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in some ways, actually not

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everybody, but a lot of folks,

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a lot of us are thinking about what

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disability justice looks like,

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could look like, especially under

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an economy that does not care

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about us, that does not have that

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value of care for our people.

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And I'm curious, through this

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pandemic, what are some of the

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notice things or observations you

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have noted in how folks are

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relating to,

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you know, disability justice work or

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even care work, right?

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Mm hmm.

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I want to caveat this by saying,

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like, I still feel pretty new to

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disability justice myself because

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I was only introduced to it in 2017

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through to Lila Lewis,

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an incredible organizer,

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abolitionist, the of

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attorney.

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And so I

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haven't been in the disability

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justice space as long

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as as long as many other people.

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But still, I notice that as it's

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gotten popular.

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I feel like it's gotten a little bit

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depoliticized

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and people keep confusing disability

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justice with disability rights.

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When disability justice is very

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much about things

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we can do outside of the law

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and how we care for each other.

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And there's, you know, very clear

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12 principles

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and a lot of people moving into

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disability justice, I think.

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What to interpret it

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as the way that they need justice,

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which is which is understandable.

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But there's also very clear tenants

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that have been set out already.

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And so I think it's important to

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when you start

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learning about new movements, to

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learn about, you know, the history

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and the work that's already been

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done in that space.

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Not to say that like expanding

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it is bad or anything, but just like

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knowing where it's come

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from, it's helpful for determining

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where we move forward.

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And particularly like disability

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justice talks a lot about

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leadership of the most impacted.

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And this is something that I've

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been a little concerned about.

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I notice a lot of people have been

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moving into disability justice, but

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I've also noticed that a lot of the

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most

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vocal and prominent

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people are not necessarily

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the most impacted.

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So can you.

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Share a little bit more on that?

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Because we know that's a tendency.

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Yeah, a lot of movements.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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But I'm curious for you kind of

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what what is your noticing

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and. Yeah, maybe a little bit more

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on that.

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Of course. Yeah.

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I will say that, like, I

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wouldn't even consider myself.

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I just start with me.

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I think it's easier to talk about

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yourself.

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And I am a light skinned

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East Asian.

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And I was born in Taiwan.

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And I am queer.

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I'm gender fluid.

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I'm disabled.

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I have a lot of marginalization, but

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that doesn't necessarily mean I'm

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the most impacted systemically.

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And so I'm like, should I

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be a leader in disability justice?

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You know, I'm happy to do my

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projects, but

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I feel like we should really be

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mindful and.

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Really be allowing

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black disabled people

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to take the lead in

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disability justice and to really

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move it forward.

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And particularly something

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that I know people don't necessarily

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like to talk about is there's a lot

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of colourism in the space.

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And I'm like, it's

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it's not just like

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anybody. Black Being the leader

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is good because as we know,

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a lot of mainstream media

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and a lot of society just tends to

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favor light skinned folks.

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And so I think it's important for us

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to realize, like.

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People experience different levels

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of oppression, not only

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on the racial level, but also

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just on basis of skin

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color.

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And so I'm just like when you think

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about who is the most

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impacted by systemic oppressions

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and the intersections of them?

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Like, who would that be?

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And asking yourself, Is it me?

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I'm not saying that you shouldn't

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work in the space, but

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sometimes

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I just get frustrated that

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disability justice leaders who are

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asked to speak at events are like

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the same people over and over,

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you know, and like the lighter

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skinned of the folks,

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you know? And I'm just like,

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Hello, where

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are all?

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I know there are a lot of black

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women, black, non-binary people,

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black genderqueer people who like

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have a lot of work that they've

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done. And why are

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they getting the mic,

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so to speak, you know,

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metaphorically or literally.

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Yeah. Oof.

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And it's, it's, it's a pattern

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that like, you know, the

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anti-blackness and the color is

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like, is just so

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persistent.

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It is so blatant

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and it's also so global.

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And yeah, it's, it's really

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frustrating to see the ways in which

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it manifests itself, even in

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our movements, right?

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Even in the spaces that

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want to center conversations of

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justice and transformation

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and healing.

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But I appreciate you sort of like

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grounding us in that, like, oh, this

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is also reality.

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This is also some shit we have to

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contend with, right?

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Like, you know, we don't get a pass

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because we're talking about justice.

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And I think sometimes folks kind

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of want to feel that way, like, oh,

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no, but I'm doing the good work.

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It's like, yes. And like there's

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many realities that can be true

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at once. So thank

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you for for grounding us in that.

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Ellie, can you tell me a little bit

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about I know you have like artistic

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projects. I know you have your

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organizational work.

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Like, you know, can you sort

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of like bring us to

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all these different projects and,

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you know, the ones that are sort of

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consuming your time, I can imagine.

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So my main thing

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is

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I do most things under

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effect, which is umbrella

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grassroots

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sport, fiscally sponsored

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project

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that puts its emphasis on

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creating resources for multiple

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marginalized people and

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embodying disability justice.

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And those are just

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very wordy ways of saying,

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like, I want a project

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in which I basically make no money.

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And any money we collect,

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we get to give to

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other disabled bipoc or

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multiple marginalized bipoc

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because just paying people is super

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important to me.

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I think especially in this

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country where

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black people's labor has been taken

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for granted, you know, I don't

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I don't think I think free labor

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is just overrated.

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So I think it's

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very important to just be able to

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pay folks and affect is

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the umbrella that I do it under.

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So I have two projects that

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are active right now under effect

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one.

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The newer one is the Community Care

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Awards, which is hopefully

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going to become an annual

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award where we take nominations

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from the community

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for people local

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to the Pacific Northwest

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in the U.S.

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just because of U.S.

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nonprofit law, it's it's easier to

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keep it within the country.

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But we ask for nominations for

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people basically in

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Washington and Oregon

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who have

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been doing the work

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of community

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care.

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And we try to give

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them $500 just

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as a tiny thank you

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for and recognition

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for everything that they've been

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doing.

00:11:59:03 00:12:01:11
And we've only done it one time.

00:12:02:24 00:12:04:20
I'm hoping that it can become a

00:12:04:21 00:12:06:09
yearly thing.

00:12:06:10 00:12:08:17
Mm hmm. Yes.

00:12:08:18 00:12:10:19
Love that. I love a good celebratory

00:12:10:20 00:12:11:19
acknowledgment.

00:12:13:06 00:12:14:23
And then I was also learning a

00:12:14:24 00:12:17:01
little bit about your work,

00:12:17:02 00:12:19:00
holding down disabled in

00:12:19:01 00:12:20:24
here, which just seems like

00:12:21:00 00:12:23:05
such an expansive

00:12:23:06 00:12:25:23
and diverse sort of like

00:12:25:24 00:12:27:15
storytelling project.

00:12:27:16 00:12:29:13
And I'm also a Gemini, so any

00:12:29:14 00:12:31:02
time I'm like storytelling,

00:12:31:03 00:12:33:01
anything, I'm like, Yes, say more

00:12:34:05 00:12:35:04
so.

00:12:35:05 00:12:37:02
So tell

00:12:37:03 00:12:38:16
us a little bit about Disabled in

00:12:38:17 00:12:39:24
here.

00:12:40:00 00:12:41:05
I think even with the title, it's

00:12:41:06 00:12:43:03
very powerful and it's very clear

00:12:43:04 00:12:44:24
and sort of unapologetic is

00:12:45:00 00:12:46:01
like this is what it is.

00:12:47:17 00:12:49:14
But also curious to hear from your

00:12:49:15 00:12:51:10
own perspective, like, you

00:12:51:11 00:12:53:10
know, what drove you

00:12:53:11 00:12:55:05
to be like, okay, we're absolutely

00:12:55:06 00:12:57:15
missing. This is a gap.

00:12:57:16 00:13:00:07
And sort of how has it been

00:13:00:08 00:13:02:12
unfolding this project?

00:13:02:13 00:13:03:13
Yeah.

00:13:03:14 00:13:05:12
So disabled in here is affects main

00:13:05:13 00:13:07:20
project and it's

00:13:07:21 00:13:10:04
both a free stock image collection

00:13:10:05 00:13:11:14
and an interview series

00:13:13:11 00:13:15:01
because there's just so much out

00:13:15:02 00:13:16:18
there about disabled people.

00:13:18:04 00:13:19:23
But I should emphasize the word

00:13:19:24 00:13:21:19
about it's not so much

00:13:21:20 00:13:23:24
by disabled people

00:13:24:00 00:13:25:23
and even less when you look

00:13:25:24 00:13:27:24
at things by disabled, black

00:13:28:00 00:13:29:15
and brown folks.

00:13:29:16 00:13:31:13
So I really wanted a project that

00:13:31:14 00:13:33:12
really came from

00:13:33:13 00:13:34:12
us,

00:13:35:14 00:13:36:19
by and for us

00:13:37:21 00:13:39:24
in order to

00:13:40:00 00:13:41:19
more accurately portray

00:13:43:07 00:13:44:21
and celebrate, you know, the

00:13:44:22 00:13:46:12
realities of being

00:13:47:14 00:13:49:14
and also to sort of flip the script

00:13:49:15 00:13:51:12
into filling

00:13:51:13 00:13:54:06
up the space with stories of joy,

00:13:54:07 00:13:56:06
because so much of, like

00:13:56:07 00:13:57:21
any disability coverage is about

00:13:57:22 00:14:00:08
like, oh, trauma poured

00:14:00:09 00:14:02:04
IV over or inspiration

00:14:02:05 00:14:04:05
porn. I've overcome but

00:14:04:06 00:14:05:22
you know, I haven't overcome

00:14:05:23 00:14:08:13
anything. I'm disabled every day.

00:14:08:14 00:14:10:16
I continue to be disabled.

00:14:10:17 00:14:12:21
I probably personally

00:14:12:22 00:14:15:20
will become more disabled over time.

00:14:15:21 00:14:18:09
And that part does suck sometimes.

00:14:18:10 00:14:20:18
And other times, you know,

00:14:20:19 00:14:21:20
it's life.

00:14:21:21 00:14:22:20
You know,

00:14:23:22 00:14:25:13
everybody deals with different

00:14:25:14 00:14:26:13
things in their life.

00:14:29:01 00:14:31:01
Dealing with disability systemically

00:14:31:02 00:14:32:01
sucks a lot,

00:14:33:12 00:14:35:02
but there's just a lot of like

00:14:35:03 00:14:37:02
little moments every day that I felt

00:14:37:03 00:14:39:03
like people weren't

00:14:39:04 00:14:40:06
understanding

00:14:41:08 00:14:43:05
and I was thinking really hard

00:14:43:06 00:14:45:14
about like, how could I convey

00:14:48:03 00:14:50:10
more about, I guess, disabled

00:14:50:11 00:14:52:08
life and disabled black and

00:14:52:09 00:14:55:06
brown lives, particularly

00:14:55:07 00:14:57:12
with a focus on

00:14:57:13 00:14:59:13
collaborating with like

00:14:59:14 00:15:00:17
queer folks,

00:15:02:05 00:15:04:08
fat people, and I mean fat as a

00:15:04:09 00:15:06:12
neutral descriptor, not an insult.

00:15:08:06 00:15:10:08
And, you know, darker

00:15:10:09 00:15:13:10
skinned folks who don't necessarily

00:15:13:11 00:15:14:15
get to

00:15:16:18 00:15:18:17
be front and center.

00:15:18:18 00:15:19:20
And so I was thinking about a

00:15:19:21 00:15:22:07
project that could really celebrate

00:15:24:10 00:15:26:04
a bunch of different types of

00:15:26:05 00:15:27:23
disabled people of color.

00:15:27:24 00:15:30:21
And I came up with disabled in here.

00:15:30:22 00:15:32:13
And initially it started as just

00:15:32:14 00:15:33:23
like stock photos,

00:15:35:18 00:15:37:15
just because I think the

00:15:37:16 00:15:39:11
photos are just such strong

00:15:39:12 00:15:40:12
visual impact.

00:15:42:07 00:15:43:22
And I love the idea of being able to

00:15:43:23 00:15:45:12
capture people as they are with

00:15:45:13 00:15:47:16
their own mobility aids or,

00:15:47:17 00:15:48:16
you know.

00:15:50:07 00:15:52:05
Whatever.

00:15:52:06 00:15:54:06
Disability devices, accessibility

00:15:54:07 00:15:55:11
devices they have.

00:15:55:12 00:15:57:20
I thought I was like, Bring it all.

00:15:57:21 00:15:59:17
We want to capture you and

00:15:59:18 00:16:01:14
your full glory.

00:16:01:15 00:16:03:09
You know, and I very

00:16:03:10 00:16:05:05
much want to collaborate

00:16:05:06 00:16:07:02
with people as much as they want to

00:16:07:03 00:16:09:22
collaborate in terms of like

00:16:09:23 00:16:11:25
when we

00:16:11:26 00:16:14:09
work with different models,

00:16:14:10 00:16:16:03
so to speak, because folks aren't

00:16:16:04 00:16:17:22
professional models are very much

00:16:17:23 00:16:19:14
like, Hey, is there anything that

00:16:19:15 00:16:21:11
you particularly want to shoot?

00:16:21:12 00:16:22:16
Is there something that you want to

00:16:22:17 00:16:23:10
get across?

00:16:23:11 00:16:24:16
Like, what do you do?

00:16:24:17 00:16:25:19
What do you want these pictures to

00:16:25:20 00:16:26:25
say?

00:16:26:26 00:16:28:12
And sometimes people have a lot they

00:16:28:13 00:16:29:19
want to contribute and sometimes

00:16:29:20 00:16:31:11
they have less.

00:16:31:12 00:16:33:03
And, you know, I want to make it

00:16:33:04 00:16:34:17
flexible so that, like, I'm not

00:16:34:18 00:16:36:10
asking you for a whole bunch of we

00:16:36:11 00:16:38:03
do pay these folks so it's not free

00:16:38:04 00:16:40:13
work. But I don't want to

00:16:40:14 00:16:42:14
like burden people if

00:16:42:15 00:16:43:20
they don't want to think about that

00:16:43:21 00:16:45:06
kind of thing. But I also want to

00:16:45:07 00:16:46:14
give them the freedom to really

00:16:46:15 00:16:47:25
express themselves further.

00:16:50:15 00:16:52:12
So having

00:16:52:13 00:16:53:12
people.

00:16:54:13 00:16:55:19
Being in charge of their own

00:16:55:20 00:16:57:12
narratives, I think is just so

00:16:57:13 00:16:58:13
powerful.

00:17:00:05 00:17:01:21
Oh, absolutely.

00:17:01:22 00:17:04:12
And it's really beautiful to hear

00:17:04:13 00:17:06:03
how even like sort of behind the

00:17:06:04 00:17:07:24
scenes, like, you know, beyond

00:17:07:25 00:17:10:09
the image that the world sees,

00:17:10:10 00:17:12:13
it's just really collaborative

00:17:12:14 00:17:15:10
and really like agency affirming

00:17:15:11 00:17:17:14
process. Like that's just really a

00:17:17:15 00:17:19:12
beautiful reminder of how,

00:17:19:13 00:17:20:20
you know, how it should be, right?

00:17:20:21 00:17:22:19
Like what actually feels good.

00:17:22:20 00:17:24:15
And, you know, hearing you sort

00:17:24:16 00:17:26:14
of reflect

00:17:26:15 00:17:28:12
through this process, it's

00:17:28:13 00:17:30:18
been making me think a lot more.

00:17:30:19 00:17:33:06
And I'm curious what your opinion is

00:17:33:07 00:17:35:08
of like how there is increasing

00:17:35:09 00:17:37:18
visibility of disabled

00:17:37:19 00:17:40:02
folks in sort of like,

00:17:40:03 00:17:42:09
you know, major brands campaigns.

00:17:42:10 00:17:43:09
Right.

00:17:43:19 00:17:46:12
Yet like Savage Fenty or,

00:17:46:13 00:17:48:04
you know, all these that are Nike,

00:17:48:05 00:17:49:21
like all these different folks.

00:17:49:22 00:17:51:07
And we know that especially after

00:17:51:08 00:17:53:03
2020, a

00:17:53:04 00:17:54:18
lot of brands and marketing groups

00:17:54:19 00:17:56:10
have, you know, caught on to the

00:17:56:11 00:17:58:06
fact that like, oh, all of

00:17:58:07 00:18:00:01
these groups exist and they're here,

00:18:00:02 00:18:01:06
like, to your point, disabled in

00:18:01:07 00:18:02:02
here.

00:18:02:03 00:18:04:02
And for them,

00:18:04:03 00:18:05:18
you know, it seems like a great

00:18:05:19 00:18:07:15
marketing strategy.

00:18:07:16 00:18:09:16
But I also there's something

00:18:09:17 00:18:11:11
in my body that responds so

00:18:11:12 00:18:13:22
warmly when I do see

00:18:13:23 00:18:15:17
fat folks, when I see more black and

00:18:15:18 00:18:17:10
brown bodies, when I see disabled

00:18:17:11 00:18:19:12
folks, when I see queer folks

00:18:19:13 00:18:21:04
like in these campaigns.

00:18:21:05 00:18:22:12
And I also want to like challenge

00:18:22:13 00:18:24:02
myself, like, okay, what are the

00:18:24:03 00:18:25:24
limits of representation?

00:18:25:25 00:18:27:23
And like, can we allow ourselves

00:18:27:24 00:18:29:15
to just be like, oh, this is iconic?

00:18:29:16 00:18:31:14
Like, yes, but I'm curious

00:18:31:15 00:18:33:10
kind of like how you're

00:18:33:11 00:18:35:11
making sense of this

00:18:35:12 00:18:38:02
sort of increasing visibility

00:18:38:03 00:18:39:03
for disabled folks.

00:18:40:07 00:18:42:02
I'm not

00:18:42:03 00:18:43:13
going to be unhappy with more

00:18:43:14 00:18:45:13
visibility, but I think it is

00:18:45:14 00:18:47:13
an important question to ask,

00:18:47:14 00:18:49:11
like who is

00:18:49:12 00:18:51:08
in charge of these images?

00:18:51:09 00:18:53:20
Who is driving the perspective?

00:18:53:21 00:18:55:07
You know, who are we actually

00:18:55:08 00:18:57:01
centering?

00:18:57:02 00:18:59:08
Just because someone

00:18:59:09 00:19:01:03
is part of a campaign, does this

00:19:01:04 00:19:02:14
mean this campaign actually

00:19:02:15 00:19:04:24
accurately reflects them?

00:19:05:00 00:19:06:11
You know, like.

00:19:07:24 00:19:10:06
And ultimately, who is the audience,

00:19:10:07 00:19:11:04
too?

00:19:11:05 00:19:12:18
Because when big brands do it, you

00:19:12:19 00:19:14:24
know, they are not actually

00:19:15:00 00:19:17:09
necessarily marketing to

00:19:17:10 00:19:18:09
disabled people.

00:19:18:10 00:19:20:14
I find that a lot of times disabled

00:19:20:15 00:19:22:22
marketing is actually marketed at

00:19:22:23 00:19:24:13
non-disabled people because it's

00:19:24:14 00:19:26:09
more like, look how good we

00:19:26:10 00:19:27:25
are. We are a great company.

00:19:28:00 00:19:29:21
Therefore, give us your money.

00:19:29:22 00:19:32:01
Mm hmm.

00:19:32:02 00:19:33:02
Yes.

00:19:33:03 00:19:35:00
Yeah. It's like it sort

00:19:35:01 00:19:37:05
of reinforces the feel good

00:19:37:06 00:19:39:02
for mostly, like, non marginalized

00:19:39:03 00:19:39:22
people.

00:19:39:23 00:19:40:21
Yeah.

00:19:40:22 00:19:42:08
Like, I can imagine a lot of white

00:19:42:09 00:19:43:13
folks being like, oh, yeah.

00:19:43:14 00:19:45:08
Like, this brand is progressive,

00:19:45:09 00:19:47:10
cause, like, look at this campaign.

00:19:47:11 00:19:49:08
And I think those are one of the one

00:19:49:09 00:19:51:11
of those several sort of concerns

00:19:51:12 00:19:53:14
I have with like, hmm,

00:19:53:15 00:19:55:07
what happens if we get overly

00:19:55:08 00:19:57:14
satisfied with just representation?

00:19:59:04 00:20:00:20
And I really appreciate what you're

00:20:00:21 00:20:02:06
bringing up around like.

00:20:02:07 00:20:04:03
Yeah. Who, what are the intentions

00:20:04:04 00:20:06:02
of this? And also even like behind

00:20:06:03 00:20:07:21
the scenes, like how much creative

00:20:07:22 00:20:09:21
direction and narrative control

00:20:09:22 00:20:11:15
do these individual folks hold?

00:20:12:24 00:20:14:08
Which is, I think is a really,

00:20:14:09 00:20:15:17
really important question

00:20:17:04 00:20:18:09
because yeah, I think most of the

00:20:18:10 00:20:19:22
times we know, even if someone's,

00:20:19:23 00:20:21:24
like, modeling something, it's like

00:20:22:00 00:20:23:06
you are.

00:20:23:07 00:20:24:11
Yeah. Like, there's so many things

00:20:24:12 00:20:26:05
have already been set up for you and

00:20:26:06 00:20:27:09
you're kind of there, like, just to

00:20:27:10 00:20:29:09
be the face or the body

00:20:29:10 00:20:32:01
or whatever, like, you know.

00:20:32:02 00:20:33:15
Who are you even allowed to say?

00:20:33:16 00:20:35:07
No. Like if you disagree with

00:20:35:08 00:20:36:21
something.

00:20:36:22 00:20:38:22
If you showed up at Rihanna's,

00:20:38:23 00:20:40:14
you know, Fenty shoot.

00:20:40:15 00:20:42:03
Would you ever feel comfortable

00:20:42:04 00:20:43:25
enough to be like, I'm sorry,

00:20:44:00 00:20:45:24
I don't want to do this?

00:20:47:08 00:20:48:15
And this is just something I want to

00:20:48:16 00:20:50:13
encourage is like encourage giving

00:20:50:14 00:20:52:08
people the option and the

00:20:52:09 00:20:54:04
opportunity to say no to you.

00:20:55:09 00:20:56:23
You know, cultivate

00:20:59:00 00:21:01:07
your ability to hear

00:21:01:08 00:21:02:20
and accept a no

00:21:03:22 00:21:04:22
that.

00:21:06:00 00:21:07:22
I'm I'm so glad you mentioned that,

00:21:07:23 00:21:09:20
because I think

00:21:09:21 00:21:11:24
there's been times where I

00:21:12:00 00:21:13:21
have even like even

00:21:13:22 00:21:15:13
myself, I haven't felt the most

00:21:15:14 00:21:17:11
empowered and in my agency to do

00:21:17:12 00:21:18:03
that.

00:21:18:04 00:21:18:11
Mm hmm.

00:21:18:12 00:21:19:19
You know, I did.

00:21:19:20 00:21:21:01
It's also complicated because they

00:21:21:02 00:21:22:10
make so many of these brands, make

00:21:22:11 00:21:24:07
you sign NDAs and stuff like as

00:21:24:08 00:21:26:07
legal protections, even across

00:21:26:08 00:21:27:07
these things, and

00:21:28:14 00:21:30:17
sort of reinforcing secrecy,

00:21:30:18 00:21:31:15
you know?

00:21:31:16 00:21:33:05
Right. You know, like even now, I'm

00:21:33:06 00:21:34:19
like, I can't I don't think I can

00:21:34:20 00:21:36:15
say what TV show or

00:21:36:16 00:21:37:15
what what this was for.

00:21:37:16 00:21:39:11
But yeah,

00:21:39:12 00:21:41:11
some time ago, maybe sometime

00:21:41:12 00:21:43:13
last year, I was doing

00:21:43:14 00:21:45:09
like an episode, you know, on

00:21:45:10 00:21:47:06
like, like a, a new TV

00:21:47:07 00:21:49:05
show and they made

00:21:49:06 00:21:50:24
us like play this game that was like

00:21:51:00 00:21:52:14
really uncomfortable and it was kind

00:21:52:15 00:21:54:05
of like problematic statements and

00:21:54:06 00:21:56:01
was kind of like responding

00:21:56:02 00:21:56:23
like, problematic.

00:21:56:24 00:21:57:23
Tweets.

00:21:57:24 00:21:59:19
And us responding,

00:21:59:20 00:22:01:15
and it was like it was

00:22:01:16 00:22:02:20
so uncomfortable.

00:22:04:04 00:22:05:21
It was just really uncomfortable.

00:22:05:22 00:22:07:21
And, you know, it

00:22:07:22 00:22:10:03
was bizarre because, you know,

00:22:10:04 00:22:12:04
there's like so many people on set.

00:22:12:05 00:22:13:24
There's like 15, 20 people

00:22:13:25 00:22:15:14
behind like behind that camera.

00:22:15:15 00:22:16:24
You have lights on you.

00:22:17:00 00:22:18:16
And I can personally say in that

00:22:18:17 00:22:20:12
moment, I wasn't necessarily I

00:22:20:13 00:22:22:18
knew in my body I could feel

00:22:22:19 00:22:24:07
like automatically speaking my body

00:22:24:08 00:22:26:25
was like, this is not okay.

00:22:27:00 00:22:28:14
You know, like you are now like part

00:22:28:15 00:22:30:07
of this almost like problematic

00:22:30:08 00:22:31:07
jeopardy.

00:22:32:22 00:22:33:24
And I was in them.

00:22:34:00 00:22:35:18
I didn't really know how to navigate

00:22:35:19 00:22:38:02
that situation until

00:22:38:03 00:22:39:13
we sort of asked the producers,

00:22:39:14 00:22:42:09
like, Can we pause this?

00:22:42:10 00:22:43:18
We're like, That was really weird.

00:22:43:19 00:22:45:18
Like, that doesn't feel good.

00:22:45:19 00:22:47:23
Like, I don't want to partake

00:22:47:24 00:22:49:02
in this. And it was kind of, you

00:22:49:03 00:22:50:23
know, it was a tension.

00:22:50:24 00:22:52:24
So, you know, even just hearing

00:22:52:25 00:22:54:24
you, Ali, like ask

00:22:55:00 00:22:56:11
these questions like point, this is

00:22:56:12 00:22:57:09
like, oh, shit. Like, you're

00:22:57:10 00:22:58:10
bringing up some stuff for me.

00:22:58:11 00:23:00:06
I'm like, oh, you know,

00:23:00:07 00:23:01:20
it's like sometimes we don't feel

00:23:01:21 00:23:02:25
like we're in our agency to ask

00:23:03:00 00:23:04:06
that. And I can only imagine, you

00:23:04:07 00:23:06:13
know, this was like a, an emerging

00:23:06:14 00:23:07:07
show.

00:23:07:08 00:23:08:23
I cannot imagine doing that in a

00:23:08:24 00:23:11:06
major brand set,

00:23:11:07 00:23:12:13
you know, and I think we're sort of

00:23:12:14 00:23:14:10
told to just be grateful

00:23:14:11 00:23:16:04
that, like, we're the ones that, you

00:23:16:05 00:23:17:18
know, the select few that made it

00:23:17:19 00:23:19:18
into these spaces.

00:23:19:19 00:23:21:14
Yeah. And you know, some of that

00:23:21:15 00:23:23:16
fear and tension is totally legit

00:23:23:17 00:23:25:18
because there are actual industry

00:23:25:19 00:23:27:16
consequences.

00:23:27:17 00:23:29:07
A lot of the times if you try to

00:23:29:08 00:23:31:08
assert your your rights at your

00:23:31:09 00:23:32:08
agency.

00:23:33:14 00:23:35:09
And so when

00:23:35:10 00:23:37:06
I work, I try to be very mindful

00:23:37:07 00:23:39:07
of like different power dynamics

00:23:39:08 00:23:40:07
and to

00:23:41:09 00:23:43:09
never surprise people with things

00:23:43:10 00:23:44:13
that are happening as much as

00:23:44:14 00:23:45:12
possible.

00:23:45:13 00:23:47:11
Obviously, you can't like

00:23:47:12 00:23:48:25
I'm such a control freak.

00:23:48:26 00:23:50:24
I love I love being

00:23:51:00 00:23:52:06
able to plan things.

00:23:52:07 00:23:53:20
But I also know that, you know,

00:23:53:21 00:23:55:16
things happen, things

00:23:55:17 00:23:57:13
I think you you can't literally

00:23:57:14 00:23:59:11
plan out your whole life,

00:23:59:12 00:24:00:23
you know.

00:24:00:24 00:24:02:22
But that's why I tried to build

00:24:02:23 00:24:04:19
in any time I

00:24:04:20 00:24:05:23
put anything together.

00:24:05:24 00:24:07:11
There's like a lot of breaks built

00:24:07:12 00:24:09:07
in, a lot of check ins just

00:24:09:08 00:24:11:17
to be like, How are you feeling?

00:24:11:18 00:24:13:15
Is this good?

00:24:13:16 00:24:14:19
Did you want to stop?

00:24:14:20 00:24:15:20
Are you okay?

00:24:16:20 00:24:17:20
And I just like.

00:24:18:23 00:24:20:20
I think it also helps when you just

00:24:20:21 00:24:21:20
like.

00:24:22:19 00:24:24:18
Tell people, you know,

00:24:24:19 00:24:27:05
I'm here for you and ultimately,

00:24:27:06 00:24:29:05
like is

00:24:29:06 00:24:31:02
disabled in here a good project if

00:24:31:03 00:24:32:20
it if our participants don't feel

00:24:32:21 00:24:34:13
good when they're part of it, you

00:24:34:14 00:24:36:14
know, like I

00:24:36:15 00:24:37:19
think there's all these parts of

00:24:37:20 00:24:39:14
like what makes a project good

00:24:39:15 00:24:40:15
and powerful

00:24:41:22 00:24:43:13
and what makes it.

00:24:45:08 00:24:46:09
Successful

00:24:47:15 00:24:49:17
publicly versus like successful

00:24:49:18 00:24:50:22
to you as a person.

00:24:50:23 00:24:53:02
And to me, my projects are

00:24:53:03 00:24:54:24
only as successful

00:24:55:00 00:24:57:04
as the people who

00:24:57:05 00:24:59:04
who participate in

00:24:59:05 00:25:01:01
it and, you know, get to see it,

00:25:01:02 00:25:02:08
you know. So yeah.

00:25:04:15 00:25:06:12
Like from,

00:25:06:13 00:25:08:04
I don't know, certain standards

00:25:08:05 00:25:09:18
people might say disabled and hear

00:25:09:19 00:25:11:14
successful cause like, you know,

00:25:11:15 00:25:13:12
the ADA uses are images on

00:25:13:13 00:25:15:18
their website, their new website

00:25:15:19 00:25:17:16
and like the BBC has used us

00:25:17:17 00:25:19:08
and disability rights organizations

00:25:19:09 00:25:21:03
use us and like to me

00:25:21:04 00:25:23:08
I'm like the most successful

00:25:23:09 00:25:24:24
parts of that. Like I got to pay

00:25:25:00 00:25:26:23
people and I got

00:25:26:24 00:25:28:19
to work with so

00:25:28:20 00:25:30:24
many disabled illustrators that

00:25:32:04 00:25:34:02
were so surprised

00:25:34:03 00:25:35:10
when they're like, Can I do this?

00:25:35:11 00:25:36:18
And I'm like, Why can't you?

00:25:37:20 00:25:39:16
What? Why can't you do this

00:25:39:17 00:25:40:16
thing?

00:25:41:14 00:25:43:07
I just try to show up and be

00:25:43:08 00:25:44:12
supportive.

00:25:44:13 00:25:46:08
I'm not saying I'm perfect or

00:25:46:09 00:25:48:08
I'm definitely

00:25:48:09 00:25:50:23
a very flawed human being,

00:25:50:24 00:25:52:22
but I just I very much want to be

00:25:52:23 00:25:54:14
mindful that we're all humans and

00:25:54:15 00:25:55:14
like.

00:25:55:24 00:25:58:01
To me, respect means

00:25:58:02 00:25:59:16
like treating each other as fellow

00:25:59:17 00:26:01:13
humans with care.

00:26:01:14 00:26:02:13
Yes.

00:26:02:14 00:26:03:18
It's funny because it's like

00:26:05:09 00:26:08:10
such a simple task.

00:26:08:11 00:26:10:10
But I know in this in

00:26:10:11 00:26:12:02
this economy and the society, it

00:26:12:03 00:26:14:17
feels it feels like such a task

00:26:14:18 00:26:16:04
to ask people, like, can you just

00:26:16:05 00:26:17:21
treat me with the respect and like

00:26:17:22 00:26:19:20
mutuality and reciprocity?

00:26:21:22 00:26:24:10
You know, and that makes me think

00:26:24:11 00:26:25:22
a little bit about and we were

00:26:25:23 00:26:27:21
chatting a tiny bit about this

00:26:27:22 00:26:30:09
before we started recording, but

00:26:30:10 00:26:32:09
the sort of like mainstream ploy

00:26:32:10 00:26:35:09
of like return to normal,

00:26:35:10 00:26:36:17
we are post-pandemic.

00:26:36:18 00:26:38:21
Y'all like war is over.

00:26:38:22 00:26:39:22
Get over it.

00:26:41:02 00:26:42:21
How are you making sense of this?

00:26:42:22 00:26:44:08
Because everybody I know is

00:26:44:09 00:26:45:08
exhausted,

00:26:46:12 00:26:48:10
deeply anxious and

00:26:48:11 00:26:50:06
feels very far from quote

00:26:50:07 00:26:51:10
unquote, things are normal.

00:26:51:11 00:26:53:08
But, yeah, how are you making

00:26:53:09 00:26:54:12
sense of this?

00:26:54:13 00:26:56:07
BUSH It's just a

00:26:56:08 00:26:58:10
it feels like a

00:26:58:11 00:27:00:07
nationwide and maybe even

00:27:00:08 00:27:02:13
international campaign

00:27:02:14 00:27:04:11
of gaslighting, really,

00:27:04:12 00:27:06:03
where everyone's buying into this

00:27:06:04 00:27:07:22
fictional version of reality.

00:27:07:23 00:27:09:09
First of all, the pandemic is still

00:27:09:10 00:27:11:01
going. We constantly have new

00:27:11:02 00:27:12:10
variants develop.

00:27:12:11 00:27:13:19
So I'm confused.

00:27:13:20 00:27:15:25
What do you mean by post?

00:27:17:23 00:27:19:16
Is your definition of post that you

00:27:19:17 00:27:20:20
just don't want to deal with it

00:27:20:21 00:27:21:24
anymore?

00:27:22:00 00:27:23:16
Because that's not typically what

00:27:23:17 00:27:25:12
post-pandemic means.

00:27:26:23 00:27:28:20
So you're like, okay, this is

00:27:28:21 00:27:30:03
this is an interesting form of

00:27:30:04 00:27:31:04
wishful thinking.

00:27:33:11 00:27:35:07
And it's just also weird

00:27:35:08 00:27:37:00
where people keep wanting to return

00:27:37:01 00:27:38:16
to normal and you're just like,

00:27:38:17 00:27:39:16
okay.

00:27:41:13 00:27:44:00
There's kind of no more normal,

00:27:44:01 00:27:46:01
like the pandemic is here.

00:27:46:02 00:27:47:24
People have died.

00:27:48:00 00:27:49:18
It's kind of rude for you to tell

00:27:49:19 00:27:51:11
me. Return to normal.

00:27:52:21 00:27:54:19
And furthermore, like, what is

00:27:54:20 00:27:56:17
your definition of normal?

00:27:56:18 00:27:57:20
Was it ever good?

00:27:57:21 00:27:58:21
Like, who was normal?

00:27:58:22 00:27:59:25
Good for.

00:28:00:00 00:28:01:03
Yeah, obviously good for

00:28:01:04 00:28:02:17
corporations, I guess, because, you

00:28:02:18 00:28:04:19
know, everybody gets to

00:28:06:10 00:28:08:09
really work super, super

00:28:08:10 00:28:10:12
hard to be a productive,

00:28:10:13 00:28:12:07
functional human in society

00:28:12:08 00:28:14:01
and make more money for other

00:28:14:02 00:28:16:04
people, not necessarily yourself,

00:28:16:05 00:28:17:20
but you get to make money for the

00:28:17:21 00:28:20:11
corporations and for the economy.

00:28:20:12 00:28:21:12
And

00:28:22:10 00:28:24:17
you know, too and you

00:28:24:18 00:28:26:01
for all that, I guess you get the

00:28:26:02 00:28:28:04
benefit of covering some bills,

00:28:28:05 00:28:31:07
hurray, covering some bills

00:28:31:08 00:28:33:16
and filling in the gaps that

00:28:33:17 00:28:36:02
I personally feel like

00:28:36:03 00:28:37:17
the government should be caring for

00:28:37:18 00:28:38:17
more.

00:28:39:13 00:28:40:16
Yes.

00:28:40:17 00:28:41:20
I mean, it's so wild.

00:28:41:21 00:28:43:18
Like, I I'm going to go

00:28:43:19 00:28:45:10
get tested later.

00:28:45:11 00:28:47:02
And my partner was sort of asking me

00:28:47:03 00:28:48:18
like, okay, what do you like?

00:28:48:19 00:28:50:13
Do you think that wants to open the

00:28:50:14 00:28:51:21
testing site?

00:28:51:22 00:28:52:24
Because, you know, everyone's

00:28:52:25 00:28:55:12
reading about how,

00:28:55:13 00:28:57:01
you know, the government is choosing

00:28:57:02 00:28:59:00
to sort of clock out, clock out

00:28:59:01 00:29:01:18
the funding in significant ways.

00:29:01:19 00:29:03:09
And here in Florida, I mean, I live

00:29:03:10 00:29:05:03
in Florida, you know, has been such

00:29:05:04 00:29:07:01
a you know, such

00:29:07:02 00:29:09:01
a place of topic and

00:29:09:02 00:29:10:23
debate in this country during this

00:29:10:24 00:29:12:16
whole pandemic, during this past two

00:29:12:17 00:29:13:10
years.

00:29:13:11 00:29:15:06
And yeah, I was like,

00:29:15:07 00:29:16:02
oh, wait, good question.

00:29:16:03 00:29:17:11
Yeah, I have to actually check.

00:29:17:12 00:29:19:05
And like, that made me that got me

00:29:19:06 00:29:21:04
so upset, honestly, that

00:29:21:05 00:29:22:18
I'm like, Oh yeah, these people just

00:29:22:19 00:29:23:25
think like, just kidding.

00:29:24:00 00:29:25:05
It's cool.

00:29:25:06 00:29:26:14
Close the testing sites.

00:29:26:15 00:29:28:12
We're cutting the funding.

00:29:28:13 00:29:30:10
It's I think, to your point,

00:29:30:11 00:29:30:21
it's.

00:29:30:22 00:29:32:01
Rude.

00:29:32:02 00:29:33:22
And it's just really dehumanizing.

00:29:33:23 00:29:36:04
And it is gaslighting because,

00:29:36:05 00:29:37:15
you know, I was going to

00:29:38:19 00:29:41:05
like host the friend who

00:29:41:06 00:29:43:17
has moved away and is here in Miami

00:29:43:18 00:29:45:15
and they were exposed

00:29:45:16 00:29:47:13
to COVID. And I'm like, okay,

00:29:47:14 00:29:49:03
yeah. Like we're very much so in

00:29:49:04 00:29:50:20
this, you know, like I work with

00:29:50:21 00:29:52:18
young people in

00:29:52:19 00:29:54:01
a place where there's no mask

00:29:54:02 00:29:55:12
mandate in schools, right?

00:29:55:13 00:29:58:15
So you're in classrooms with like 35

00:29:58:16 00:30:00:14
other people, if not more,

00:30:00:15 00:30:01:24
with no mask mandate, right?

00:30:02:00 00:30:03:20
So it's like, again, falls

00:30:03:21 00:30:05:11
on the quote unquote, individual

00:30:05:12 00:30:07:14
responsibility on people

00:30:07:15 00:30:09:13
to a firm

00:30:09:14 00:30:10:19
care.

00:30:10:20 00:30:11:23
And I think that's something that's

00:30:11:24 00:30:13:21
been really hurtful

00:30:13:22 00:30:16:05
to see unfold that

00:30:16:06 00:30:18:16
this government has and corporations

00:30:18:17 00:30:20:03
and all the people in power have

00:30:20:04 00:30:21:25
used the pandemic

00:30:21:26 00:30:24:01
to reinforce

00:30:24:02 00:30:26:01
hyper individualistic ideas

00:30:26:02 00:30:27:06
of care.

00:30:27:07 00:30:28:15
And it's like, wow.

00:30:28:16 00:30:29:10
Y'all, y'all.

00:30:29:11 00:30:31:10
Would use a pandemic to, like, serve

00:30:31:11 00:30:33:07
yourselves in that way.

00:30:35:02 00:30:35:25
But yeah, I'm curious for you,

00:30:36:00 00:30:37:09
Ellie. Like, how are you?

00:30:37:10 00:30:38:10
How have you even been thinking

00:30:38:11 00:30:40:13
about care a little bit differently

00:30:41:14 00:30:43:06
through the pandemic, you know?

00:30:44:23 00:30:46:18
If I can return to what you were

00:30:46:19 00:30:48:14
just saying about

00:30:48:15 00:30:50:19
the emphasis on individualism, too,

00:30:50:20 00:30:52:04
I also think that's funny just

00:30:52:05 00:30:54:04
because, like we heard

00:30:54:05 00:30:56:09
that easyJet, the airline

00:30:56:10 00:30:58:09
lifted the no mask mandate and oh,

00:30:58:10 00:31:00:05
no, they thought this would

00:31:00:06 00:31:01:16
benefit them to push it on to

00:31:01:17 00:31:02:15
individual folks.

00:31:02:16 00:31:04:03
But they found out that it meant

00:31:04:04 00:31:05:25
their staff just had to

00:31:06:00 00:31:07:12
call out because so many of them

00:31:07:13 00:31:09:11
were down with COVID

00:31:09:12 00:31:10:23
that they had to cancel flights.

00:31:10:24 00:31:12:08
So I'm like. It doesn't even make

00:31:12:09 00:31:15:10
sense from a money standpoint.

00:31:15:11 00:31:18:05
I'm confused because

00:31:18:06 00:31:20:05
I mean, I'm not confused because

00:31:20:06 00:31:22:11
this is sort of what I expect, but

00:31:22:12 00:31:24:11
also like it does, it makes

00:31:24:12 00:31:26:13
sense monetarily in

00:31:26:14 00:31:28:15
the longer term.

00:31:28:16 00:31:30:15
So what kind of like really limited

00:31:30:16 00:31:32:17
short term thinking is going

00:31:32:18 00:31:34:16
on where you think if you just

00:31:34:17 00:31:36:16
push on to individuals, your company

00:31:36:17 00:31:38:08
is made up of individuals.

00:31:39:23 00:31:41:08
What do you think is going to happen

00:31:41:09 00:31:43:01
when so many people just get sick?

00:31:43:02 00:31:45:02
And before

00:31:45:03 00:31:46:06
we started recording, you were

00:31:46:07 00:31:48:01
talking about this

00:31:48:02 00:31:50:23
being a mass disabling event.

00:31:50:24 00:31:52:21
And I just think that's very much

00:31:52:22 00:31:54:22
true. We just don't know much about

00:31:54:23 00:31:56:21
Long-Covid as a chronic illness.

00:31:58:10 00:31:59:18
And, you know.

00:32:00:20 00:32:02:10
Patients are constantly not being

00:32:02:11 00:32:04:07
believed. And there's also

00:32:04:08 00:32:06:01
all this emphasis in media about

00:32:06:02 00:32:08:10
so-called mild COVID.

00:32:08:11 00:32:09:24
And people get confused about what

00:32:10:00 00:32:11:16
that means because they think mild.

00:32:11:17 00:32:13:04
COVID means mild.

00:32:13:05 00:32:15:04
Like an

00:32:15:05 00:32:17:01
obvious jump to go to.

00:32:17:02 00:32:18:19
But like mild, COVID just means you

00:32:18:20 00:32:20:02
don't end up in the hospital.

00:32:20:03 00:32:21:22
You know, it doesn't actually mean

00:32:21:23 00:32:23:15
that you. It doesn't even mean that

00:32:23:16 00:32:25:13
you can recover 100% from

00:32:25:14 00:32:27:06
COVID, because a lot of people with

00:32:27:07 00:32:28:20
so-called mild COVID end up with

00:32:28:21 00:32:31:01
long COVID and are like, Oh, no,

00:32:31:02 00:32:32:20
I can't climb stairs anymore.

00:32:32:21 00:32:34:22
I can't breathe properly

00:32:34:23 00:32:36:06
when I try to do anything.

00:32:38:12 00:32:39:13
And it's just

00:32:41:01 00:32:42:20
I, I'm like, what is the word I'm

00:32:42:21 00:32:44:06
looking for? I don't know.

00:32:44:07 00:32:45:21
I just maybe instead of words, I'm

00:32:45:22 00:32:47:21
just going to do an exhausted sigh

00:32:49:11 00:32:50:11
just a little.

00:32:56:19 00:32:57:24
Sorry. Can you remind me your

00:32:58:00 00:33:00:02
question about care

00:33:00:03 00:33:00:14
that you are.

00:33:00:15 00:33:01:19
Like being known like that?

00:33:01:20 00:33:03:05
So literally, I'm like, that's why

00:33:03:06 00:33:04:01
I'm also at.

00:33:04:02 00:33:05:02
Like.

00:33:05:03 00:33:06:02
100%.

00:33:06:03 00:33:08:02
I'm just like, it's

00:33:08:03 00:33:09:16
yes. It's so upsetting in so many

00:33:09:17 00:33:12:08
levels. Affirming the exhausted

00:33:12:09 00:33:14:04
sigh. I feel like I do those

00:33:14:05 00:33:16:06
every other hour these

00:33:16:07 00:33:17:07
days.

00:33:17:08 00:33:19:07
And I think on the flip

00:33:19:08 00:33:21:04
side, you know, as

00:33:21:05 00:33:22:12
we've all been navigating this

00:33:22:13 00:33:24:11
pandemic and what it means for our

00:33:24:12 00:33:25:23
health, our bodies and our

00:33:25:24 00:33:27:18
communities and our networks of

00:33:27:19 00:33:29:16
support and care,

00:33:29:17 00:33:31:02
you know, in some ways I think of

00:33:31:03 00:33:33:19
like early pandemic, where

00:33:33:20 00:33:35:24
people were sharing on like TikTok

00:33:36:00 00:33:37:18
and social media, like how to do

00:33:37:19 00:33:39:24
like your fire tonics

00:33:40:00 00:33:41:19
and like your ginger this and your

00:33:41:20 00:33:42:19
lemon water that.

00:33:42:20 00:33:44:17
And like everyone was just sort of

00:33:44:18 00:33:46:15
like trying to distribute as much

00:33:46:16 00:33:48:14
of an information as a, as a way

00:33:48:15 00:33:50:03
of like support.

00:33:50:04 00:33:52:02
And I know even like in my

00:33:52:03 00:33:53:20
community, like books were just like

00:33:53:21 00:33:55:17
preparing tea bundles for each

00:33:55:18 00:33:57:05
other and like, preparing little

00:33:57:06 00:33:59:15
care packages to distribute around

00:33:59:16 00:34:00:21
and.

00:34:00:22 00:34:02:18
I think some of that has

00:34:02:19 00:34:03:19
really like

00:34:04:23 00:34:06:17
slowed it down as like the

00:34:06:18 00:34:08:01
mainstream has continued to push

00:34:08:02 00:34:10:14
like, oh, there's no need for that

00:34:10:15 00:34:11:23
in some ways.

00:34:11:24 00:34:13:01
And I think it brings me to this

00:34:13:02 00:34:14:14
question that I had mentioned to

00:34:14:15 00:34:16:17
you. Like, you know, how

00:34:16:18 00:34:18:21
have you sort of seen,

00:34:18:22 00:34:20:24
you know, support or really

00:34:21:00 00:34:22:20
not just support systems, but like

00:34:22:21 00:34:25:07
care networks sort of unfold

00:34:25:08 00:34:26:23
in this in this pandemic.

00:34:28:07 00:34:29:21
Yeah, definitely.

00:34:29:22 00:34:31:19
When it started, there were so

00:34:31:20 00:34:34:19
many people jumping into mutual aid

00:34:34:20 00:34:36:17
with so much enthusiasm

00:34:36:18 00:34:37:22
and so much energy

00:34:38:22 00:34:40:19
that I

00:34:40:20 00:34:41:20
don't want to.

00:34:43:14 00:34:45:22
I was like, How do I phrase this

00:34:45:23 00:34:47:10
in the kindest way?

00:34:47:11 00:34:49:04
Like it was clear that people would

00:34:49:05 00:34:50:04
burn out.

00:34:51:11 00:34:53:09
Unfortunately, if

00:34:53:10 00:34:55:06
you are new to a space

00:34:55:07 00:34:57:24
and you jump in like 200%,

00:34:58:00 00:34:59:21
it's just not sustainable,

00:34:59:22 00:35:01:07
you know? And it's not a judgment on

00:35:01:08 00:35:03:02
anybody. It's just literally not

00:35:03:03 00:35:04:15
sustainable for anyone.

00:35:06:19 00:35:08:15
So I haven't

00:35:08:16 00:35:10:16
been seeing very much

00:35:10:17 00:35:13:06
in the space of, like,

00:35:13:07 00:35:14:09
mutual aid.

00:35:16:20 00:35:19:00
At least locally for me.

00:35:19:01 00:35:20:20
And also, as another caveat, I don't

00:35:20:21 00:35:22:05
get out much.

00:35:22:06 00:35:24:02
I'm mostly at home these

00:35:24:03 00:35:26:08
days, and I

00:35:26:09 00:35:28:11
have seen like one

00:35:28:12 00:35:30:07
or two people in person

00:35:31:13 00:35:33:10
phone wise since the pandemic.

00:35:33:11 00:35:35:12
Just because I'm high risk COVID

00:35:35:13 00:35:37:19
and, you know, sometimes

00:35:37:20 00:35:39:13
I'm like, not totally sure I want to

00:35:39:14 00:35:41:15
be living, but but

00:35:41:16 00:35:43:12
I also just don't this is not really

00:35:43:13 00:35:45:00
want to how I want to go out either.

00:35:45:01 00:35:46:12
I don't want to go out from COVID.

00:35:46:13 00:35:47:25
So I've just been try to be as

00:35:47:26 00:35:49:01
careful as possible.

00:35:49:02 00:35:51:06
But from what I've seen, definitely

00:35:51:07 00:35:53:01
mutual aid efforts have gone down.

00:35:54:17 00:35:57:03
But where I've seen efforts continue

00:35:57:04 00:35:59:04
is in a lot of grassroots

00:35:59:05 00:36:01:02
works from from black folks

00:36:01:03 00:36:02:03
in particular

00:36:03:14 00:36:04:20
who have been showing up

00:36:04:21 00:36:06:12
pre-pandemic and know how to

00:36:06:13 00:36:07:21
continue showing up because they

00:36:07:22 00:36:09:21
know that it is a long

00:36:09:22 00:36:11:24
term need of the community.

00:36:12:00 00:36:13:19
You know, and I love that.

00:36:13:20 00:36:15:12
I love seeing collective care,

00:36:15:13 00:36:17:06
interdependence.

00:36:17:07 00:36:19:02
And I think black folks just

00:36:19:03 00:36:20:10
have a long history

00:36:21:12 00:36:23:12
of of doing that for each other.

00:36:23:13 00:36:24:12
And.

00:36:25:03 00:36:26:17
Locally. There's some groups that

00:36:26:18 00:36:28:13
clearly have experience in this area

00:36:28:14 00:36:30:10
and know how to pace so that

00:36:30:11 00:36:32:05
you don't necessarily just burn out

00:36:32:06 00:36:33:11
right away.

00:36:33:12 00:36:34:19
And definitely, Asian communities

00:36:34:20 00:36:35:19
have that as well.

00:36:37:18 00:36:39:23
Maybe slightly less so in the US.

00:36:41:06 00:36:42:21
Like I'm originally from Taiwan, I'm

00:36:42:22 00:36:44:12
like, Taiwan is handling this

00:36:44:13 00:36:46:14
pandemic so good in comparison

00:36:46:15 00:36:48:07
to us. Taiwan's not perfect, but

00:36:49:08 00:36:51:08
when I hear about in Taiwan,

00:36:51:09 00:36:53:06
like if you go there, you

00:36:53:07 00:36:54:02
quarantine.

00:36:54:03 00:36:56:01
But they deliver you things, they

00:36:56:02 00:36:58:01
deliver you meals, they deliver

00:36:58:02 00:36:59:21
you protective equipment.

00:36:59:22 00:37:02:01
I'm just like, wow,

00:37:02:02 00:37:03:01
look at this.

00:37:03:02 00:37:05:04
But like, caring for each other

00:37:05:05 00:37:07:08
on a very organized government

00:37:07:09 00:37:08:22
level is incredible.

00:37:10:20 00:37:12:19
And it's all something

00:37:12:20 00:37:14:10
that we can try to, like,

00:37:15:20 00:37:17:21
take inspiration

00:37:17:22 00:37:19:06
and learnings from.

00:37:19:07 00:37:20:17
You know, here in the US.

00:37:22:04 00:37:23:18
We have many things to learn from

00:37:23:19 00:37:25:04
the rest of the world.

00:37:25:05 00:37:26:05
Yes.

00:37:27:01 00:37:28:01
So many.

00:37:28:02 00:37:29:05
And you know.

00:37:29:06 00:37:30:04
And that and that.

00:37:30:05 00:37:32:02
No, Ali, like what is

00:37:32:03 00:37:33:22
bringing you hope I'm always

00:37:33:23 00:37:36:10
thinking about Mariam Carver's

00:37:36:11 00:37:38:24
quote of hope is a discipline

00:37:38:25 00:37:40:22
and I try to hold myself to

00:37:40:23 00:37:42:05
that because I think when we look

00:37:42:06 00:37:44:00
around, there's many reasons to feel

00:37:44:01 00:37:45:08
hopeless. Right.

00:37:45:09 00:37:47:18
And to feel sort of just exhausted

00:37:47:19 00:37:48:23
and depleted.

00:37:48:24 00:37:50:18
And I'm trying to hold myself to,

00:37:50:19 00:37:53:14
like, make space for the exhaustion

00:37:53:15 00:37:54:21
and the fatigue and the like.

00:37:54:22 00:37:56:22
I'm tired and the sigh

00:37:56:23 00:37:58:19
and also, like, clean my moments

00:37:58:20 00:38:00:14
of joy and clean my moments of light

00:38:00:15 00:38:02:06
and interdependence and like

00:38:02:07 00:38:03:10
community.

00:38:03:11 00:38:05:06
So I'm curious

00:38:05:07 00:38:07:02
for you, like what what's feeding

00:38:07:03 00:38:08:04
your hope right now?

00:38:10:14 00:38:12:08
I'm such a terrible person to ask

00:38:12:09 00:38:13:08
that question to.

00:38:14:07 00:38:15:17
I have

00:38:16:25 00:38:19:01
the low grade depression

00:38:19:02 00:38:20:23
that's with me all my life.

00:38:20:24 00:38:22:25
So I'm depressed pretty much

00:38:22:26 00:38:24:05
24 seven.

00:38:25:18 00:38:27:15
And despite how I

00:38:27:16 00:38:29:15
sound, I haven't been

00:38:29:16 00:38:31:11
feeling that hopeful.

00:38:31:12 00:38:33:13
You know, I have been struggling.

00:38:33:14 00:38:34:17
It's it's the thing I've been

00:38:34:18 00:38:35:17
struggling with,

00:38:36:24 00:38:38:18
particularly during the pandemic of

00:38:38:19 00:38:40:17
like, what things can

00:38:40:18 00:38:41:12
I look to?

00:38:41:13 00:38:43:18
And in the past, I could try to

00:38:43:19 00:38:46:16
make some future plans that are fun,

00:38:46:17 00:38:49:03
you know, with friends that I love.

00:38:51:01 00:38:52:21
Maybe trying to travel to some

00:38:52:22 00:38:54:16
nearby place.

00:38:54:17 00:38:56:20
And now I don't have that so much,

00:38:56:21 00:38:58:16
so it's hard for me to hold on

00:38:58:17 00:38:59:16
to that seed of hope.

00:39:00:23 00:39:02:10
But I will say that something that

00:39:02:11 00:39:04:03
does fill me up is just getting to

00:39:04:04 00:39:06:04
speak to other multiple

00:39:06:05 00:39:07:14
marginalized folks and other

00:39:07:15 00:39:08:15
disabled folks.

00:39:10:08 00:39:12:09
It feels at least

00:39:12:10 00:39:13:17
validating, you know,

00:39:14:18 00:39:16:12
much like how I try to do for others

00:39:16:13 00:39:18:05
in my work. Like just talking to

00:39:18:06 00:39:20:02
other people who can relate is

00:39:20:03 00:39:22:08
very validating for me

00:39:22:09 00:39:24:04
because I often feel like,

00:39:24:05 00:39:26:06
you know, you, especially

00:39:26:07 00:39:28:19
when I'm like home by myself

00:39:28:20 00:39:30:15
with my pets and

00:39:30:16 00:39:31:15
my partner.

00:39:31:16 00:39:34:06
But still it feels

00:39:34:07 00:39:35:17
my partner is non-disabled.

00:39:35:18 00:39:37:16
And so a lot of times it feels like

00:39:37:17 00:39:38:23
you're in the space.

00:39:38:24 00:39:40:18
And I spent a lot of time in my head

00:39:42:04 00:39:43:23
and I'm just like, feels like I'm

00:39:43:24 00:39:45:03
the only one going through this.

00:39:45:04 00:39:46:04
I know I'm not.

00:39:46:05 00:39:47:22
I just don't have enough interaction

00:39:47:23 00:39:49:22
with people anymore.

00:39:49:23 00:39:51:07
And I'm like, I need more of that.

00:39:51:08 00:39:53:03
I need to,

00:39:53:04 00:39:55:02
I guess, work harder at cultivating

00:39:56:15 00:39:58:05
relationships and interactions and

00:39:58:06 00:40:00:03
COVID safe ways so

00:40:00:04 00:40:02:14
that I can remember that, you know,

00:40:02:15 00:40:03:16
there are

00:40:04:17 00:40:07:09
fantastic people out there

00:40:07:10 00:40:08:21
as much as it can feel like you're

00:40:08:22 00:40:11:05
surrounded by like horribleness

00:40:11:06 00:40:13:09
and everything is all.

00:40:13:10 00:40:14:21
But you need to find

00:40:16:03 00:40:18:05
people, animal things

00:40:18:06 00:40:20:04
that resonate with you and.

00:40:21:18 00:40:23:14
I've also heard from folks that,

00:40:23:15 00:40:25:12
like, it's hard because the

00:40:25:13 00:40:26:21
things that worked for them at the

00:40:26:22 00:40:28:10
beginning of the pandemic don't work

00:40:28:11 00:40:29:16
anymore. And.

00:40:30:20 00:40:32:11
I think that's true for me as well.

00:40:32:12 00:40:33:23
They were like distractions I could

00:40:33:24 00:40:35:11
turn to.

00:40:35:12 00:40:36:15
And ultimately, I think

00:40:37:22 00:40:38:22
I'm working on this.

00:40:38:23 00:40:40:02
It's not like I have it, figure it

00:40:40:03 00:40:41:20
out, but ultimately thinking about

00:40:41:21 00:40:43:14
like, what is the most important to

00:40:43:15 00:40:44:14
me?

00:40:45:23 00:40:47:00
And how can I

00:40:48:06 00:40:49:23
bring a little bit more of that in

00:40:49:24 00:40:51:04
my life?

00:40:51:05 00:40:53:01
You know, and I don't I don't have

00:40:53:02 00:40:54:16
the answer to that.

00:40:54:17 00:40:56:02
That's why I'm not that hopeful

00:40:56:03 00:40:57:03
right now.

00:40:57:04 00:40:58:20
I'm just I'm trying to constantly

00:40:58:21 00:41:00:12
think on it to figure out if there's

00:41:00:13 00:41:02:04
small things I can do or big things

00:41:02:05 00:41:03:05
I can do.

00:41:04:11 00:41:05:03
Yes.

00:41:05:04 00:41:07:04
I mean, you know, I'd

00:41:07:05 00:41:08:05
just want to affirm that.

00:41:08:06 00:41:10:12
Right. Like, I also share

00:41:10:13 00:41:11:19
I also share this reflection of

00:41:11:20 00:41:13:11
like, wow, you know, when the

00:41:13:12 00:41:15:10
pandemic started, I was like on

00:41:15:11 00:41:16:07
my A-game.

00:41:16:08 00:41:17:23
I was like, I'm gardening.

00:41:17:24 00:41:19:22
I'm like making pasta from

00:41:19:23 00:41:22:10
scratch and, like, amazing

00:41:22:11 00:41:24:19
things. Like, I'm on it.

00:41:24:20 00:41:25:22
And it's just, I think to your

00:41:25:23 00:41:27:10
earlier point from like a pace

00:41:27:11 00:41:29:06
perspective, and I'm an organizer,

00:41:29:07 00:41:30:18
organizer in a place like Florida,

00:41:32:03 00:41:34:01
so it's like I, I know in

00:41:34:02 00:41:35:22
other areas like how important it

00:41:35:23 00:41:37:04
is to pace yourself.

00:41:37:05 00:41:38:14
But I think the pandemic was just

00:41:38:15 00:41:40:12
such a shock that we were we

00:41:40:13 00:41:42:02
went into overdrive and we put

00:41:42:03 00:41:43:19
ourselves in overdrive.

00:41:43:20 00:41:45:16
And now it's been over two years.

00:41:45:17 00:41:47:10
And you can't I mean, many of us

00:41:47:11 00:41:48:17
have been in overdrive our entire

00:41:48:18 00:41:50:06
lives because of trauma and

00:41:50:07 00:41:52:19
oppression, but I mean, sustainably,

00:41:52:20 00:41:54:02
to feel good, you cannot be in

00:41:54:03 00:41:56:04
overdrive for so long.

00:41:56:05 00:41:58:11
And I know, like I've experienced,

00:41:58:12 00:42:00:11
like being an overdrive to like for

00:42:00:12 00:42:02:15
escapism and then back to overdrive

00:42:02:16 00:42:04:12
and like dissociating and then

00:42:04:13 00:42:06:04
like this, you know, this like

00:42:06:05 00:42:08:06
roller coaster of high, low,

00:42:08:07 00:42:09:05
high, low.

00:42:09:06 00:42:10:22
And I it's been really hard to sort

00:42:10:23 00:42:13:11
of find like the ebb and flow

00:42:13:12 00:42:15:15
and the current of like, ooh,

00:42:15:16 00:42:17:09
okay, we're here, right?

00:42:17:10 00:42:18:11
Like, it just it's hard.

00:42:18:12 00:42:19:23
I think that's a challenge.

00:42:19:24 00:42:21:18
I would say all of us are up to now.

00:42:21:19 00:42:23:15
Like, what is that ebb and flow

00:42:23:16 00:42:24:17
and what is that current

00:42:25:21 00:42:27:02
going to feel like going to look

00:42:27:03 00:42:28:23
like given all these new set of

00:42:28:24 00:42:30:03
conditions?

00:42:30:04 00:42:31:10
So just want to affirm, I think

00:42:31:11 00:42:32:14
we're all trying to figure out.

00:42:32:15 00:42:34:15
I always hesitate or really

00:42:34:16 00:42:36:11
question anyone who comes in with

00:42:36:12 00:42:38:08
like, you know, really

00:42:38:09 00:42:39:04
concrete answers.

00:42:39:05 00:42:41:10
I'm like, what's that about?

00:42:41:11 00:42:43:07
So yeah, just

00:42:43:08 00:42:44:06
want to affirm that.

00:42:44:07 00:42:46:04
And I think so many of us are also

00:42:46:05 00:42:48:01
questioning and in some

00:42:48:02 00:42:49:09
ways like gaslighting ourselves

00:42:49:10 00:42:50:20
around our own experiences.

00:42:50:21 00:42:52:18
Like, you know, I

00:42:52:19 00:42:54:14
think in my perspective more

00:42:54:15 00:42:56:18
just like this, like exhaustion

00:42:56:19 00:42:58:12
to like there's exhaustion that's

00:42:58:13 00:43:00:02
like you can't like rest.

00:43:00:03 00:43:01:03
Like you can be like I'm going to

00:43:01:04 00:43:02:09
take a day to rest and then you wake

00:43:02:10 00:43:04:13
up like rejuvenated.

00:43:04:14 00:43:06:14
Like it's really hard to access that

00:43:06:15 00:43:08:17
sort of like rejuvenated

00:43:08:18 00:43:09:17
feeling.

00:43:10:14 00:43:12:03
So yeah, I just want to, wanted to

00:43:12:04 00:43:14:04
share that also to sort of affirm

00:43:14:05 00:43:14:24
I think we're all trying to.

00:43:14:25 00:43:15:23
Figure it out.

00:43:15:24 00:43:17:16
Yeah, for sure.

00:43:17:17 00:43:18:19
And I think something that's

00:43:18:20 00:43:21:08
important to know that I've

00:43:21:09 00:43:23:09
seen said over and over is like,

00:43:23:10 00:43:25:15
it's hard to recover from trauma

00:43:25:16 00:43:27:16
when you're still going through it,

00:43:27:17 00:43:29:11
you know? And the thing is like

00:43:31:05 00:43:32:21
we're still going through the trauma

00:43:32:22 00:43:34:08
because the pandemic is still

00:43:34:09 00:43:36:01
happening. As much as everyone tries

00:43:36:02 00:43:38:17
to say it's not, but it is

00:43:38:18 00:43:40:13
and it is

00:43:40:14 00:43:41:15
a global crisis.

00:43:41:16 00:43:42:24
But at the same time,

00:43:44:13 00:43:46:07
the adjusting to new normal that

00:43:46:08 00:43:47:18
we're not talking about should be

00:43:47:19 00:43:49:17
like, what if we just mass

00:43:49:18 00:43:51:05
do all the time?

00:43:51:06 00:43:52:18
What if we just got used to that?

00:43:52:19 00:43:54:08
You know, what if we got used to

00:43:54:09 00:43:56:08
taking precautions instead

00:43:56:09 00:43:58:13
of trying to pretend

00:43:58:14 00:44:00:14
like no precautions are necessary

00:44:00:15 00:44:02:22
and then reentering the cycle

00:44:02:23 00:44:03:22
of

00:44:04:21 00:44:06:05
variance?

00:44:06:06 00:44:08:00
You know, if we got used to a

00:44:08:01 00:44:09:17
different kind of cycle, the safety

00:44:09:18 00:44:11:11
cycle, maybe that would help.

00:44:11:12 00:44:13:04
But since we're not doing that,

00:44:13:05 00:44:14:05
it's, it's

00:44:15:02 00:44:17:03
us being retraumatized over

00:44:17:04 00:44:19:03
and over and it's just

00:44:19:04 00:44:20:17
really hard to.

00:44:21:21 00:44:23:02
Adjust to that.

00:44:23:03 00:44:25:03
When you're your

00:44:25:04 00:44:26:24
government, your authority

00:44:27:00 00:44:29:23
figures are putting you through

00:44:29:24 00:44:31:19
emotional roller coasters again

00:44:31:20 00:44:33:06
and again.

00:44:33:07 00:44:35:06
You know, and so we

00:44:35:07 00:44:36:21
have to also remember, like,

00:44:38:05 00:44:39:07
it's just hard.

00:44:40:12 00:44:42:10
You like you can't you you

00:44:42:11 00:44:44:00
sort of. You usually have to be

00:44:44:01 00:44:45:01
like.

00:44:46:08 00:44:48:04
Somewhat distant from something

00:44:48:05 00:44:50:01
before you can really

00:44:50:02 00:44:51:25
take it all in and

00:44:52:00 00:44:53:21
try to so-called recover or

00:44:53:22 00:44:54:23
just adjust.

00:44:54:24 00:44:56:10
And we're just we're not away from

00:44:56:11 00:44:57:11
it.

00:44:57:12 00:44:58:18
We're still in it now.

00:44:58:19 00:45:00:00
And I'm that way, too.

00:45:00:01 00:45:01:16
I'm like, Oh, I feel like I should

00:45:01:17 00:45:02:12
be over it.

00:45:02:13 00:45:04:07
And not not over the pandemic, but I

00:45:04:08 00:45:05:13
feel like I should be over this

00:45:05:14 00:45:06:13
exhaustion.

00:45:07:16 00:45:10:17
I feel like I should have adjusted,

00:45:10:18 00:45:11:15
but I'm not.

00:45:11:16 00:45:13:12
Because it's just

00:45:13:13 00:45:14:12
it's still going.

00:45:16:03 00:45:17:08
Hmm. That's so powerful.

00:45:17:09 00:45:19:01
I think I'm going to sit with that

00:45:19:02 00:45:20:24
for a while. Just like.

00:45:21:00 00:45:22:15
Yeah, like when we're still moving

00:45:22:16 00:45:25:12
through the crisis, how do we

00:45:25:13 00:45:27:03
get over the crisis?

00:45:27:04 00:45:29:02
Yeah, it's really counterintuitive.

00:45:29:03 00:45:30:04
When you say it out loud, it's like,

00:45:30:05 00:45:31:11
what? What do you.

00:45:31:12 00:45:33:05
It just doesn't make any sense.

00:45:33:06 00:45:34:02
You know?

00:45:34:03 00:45:34:21
It doesn't.

00:45:34:22 00:45:36:01
But it's funny because sometimes you

00:45:36:02 00:45:37:07
just have to hear something so

00:45:37:08 00:45:38:21
simple and clear out loud to be

00:45:38:22 00:45:40:23
like, oh, yeah, word

00:45:40:24 00:45:42:09
like, I don't know what that's

00:45:42:10 00:45:44:02
about. So I'm definitely going to

00:45:44:03 00:45:46:00
sit with that for sure for a while

00:45:46:01 00:45:47:21
because it's funny.

00:45:47:22 00:45:49:03
I'm like thinking even like my

00:45:49:04 00:45:50:14
therapy sessions, I'm processing

00:45:50:15 00:45:51:19
things that might have happened ten,

00:45:51:20 00:45:52:24
15 years ago

00:45:54:06 00:45:55:21
and it's like just now, you know?

00:45:55:22 00:45:57:06
I was just thinking of that this

00:45:57:07 00:45:58:09
morning. Like, wow.

00:45:58:10 00:46:00:04
Like, it takes it takes this

00:46:00:05 00:46:01:18
distance, it takes this time, it

00:46:01:19 00:46:03:14
takes reflection to be able

00:46:03:15 00:46:05:11
to be like, what happens?

00:46:05:12 00:46:07:04
What has been the impact of that on

00:46:07:05 00:46:09:05
me? And like we still we have,

00:46:09:06 00:46:11:10
we know like short immediate impacts

00:46:11:11 00:46:12:16
of this pandemic on us, right?

00:46:12:17 00:46:13:16
Like all the ways in which we've

00:46:13:17 00:46:14:12
seen.

00:46:14:13 00:46:16:10
But it's like, how are we like,

00:46:16:11 00:46:17:20
how are we going to be impacted five

00:46:17:21 00:46:19:15
years down the road, ten years and

00:46:19:16 00:46:20:19
beyond?

00:46:20:20 00:46:23:05
And yeah, oof,

00:46:23:06 00:46:24:03
it's a lot.

00:46:24:04 00:46:25:06
It's a lot.

00:46:25:07 00:46:27:05
I prefer not to think about that.

00:46:27:06 00:46:28:17
If I think about it, I'm just going

00:46:28:18 00:46:30:22
to be overly exhausted.

00:46:30:23 00:46:31:18
The spiral.

00:46:31:19 00:46:33:08
No, no, no, no. I'm like we.

00:46:33:09 00:46:34:12
I rebuke that today.

00:46:36:09 00:46:39:04
Yeah, but it is it is a process,

00:46:39:05 00:46:40:16
you know, and you can say words to

00:46:40:17 00:46:41:17
yourself all you are.

00:46:41:18 00:46:43:15
I can say so many platitudes, but

00:46:43:16 00:46:45:11
ultimately it's like,

00:46:45:12 00:46:47:22
oh, a long exercise

00:46:47:23 00:46:49:18
in patients with each other and

00:46:49:19 00:46:51:23
especially ourselves, you know,

00:46:51:24 00:46:54:06
I'm like, I'm the most impatient

00:46:54:07 00:46:56:08
with myself all the time.

00:46:56:09 00:46:57:17
Um, what.

00:46:57:18 00:46:59:13
What astrological sign

00:46:59:14 00:47:00:04
are you?

00:47:00:05 00:47:01:16
I'm a Libra.

00:47:01:17 00:47:02:24
Okay?

00:47:03:00 00:47:03:23
I love Libra.

00:47:03:24 00:47:05:03
I'm like, That's interesting.

00:47:05:04 00:47:06:16
I feel like there must be something

00:47:06:17 00:47:08:00
else in your chart because Libra is

00:47:08:01 00:47:11:05
are usually, like, indecisive,

00:47:11:06 00:47:13:05
which sometimes can lead to,

00:47:13:06 00:47:14:23
like, a weird impatience and ask how

00:47:14:24 00:47:15:24
like.

00:47:16:00 00:47:17:18
I'm like, I'm a tiger Libra.

00:47:17:19 00:47:18:25
It's important to notice.

00:47:18:26 00:47:21:08
Note my Chinese astrological

00:47:21:09 00:47:23:05
side is a tiger.

00:47:23:06 00:47:24:14
Oops, that part.

00:47:24:15 00:47:26:08
I'm a I'm a fire tiger.

00:47:26:09 00:47:27:09
Thank you.

00:47:28:04 00:47:28:18
Exactly.

00:47:28:19 00:47:30:16
So I'm like, oh, I'm

00:47:30:17 00:47:32:02
missing here.

00:47:32:03 00:47:34:00
Yeah. The other tiger Libra

00:47:34:01 00:47:35:02
that I've met is.

00:47:37:12 00:47:38:12
A lot like me.

00:47:39:22 00:47:41:09
We really relate to each other.

00:47:41:10 00:47:43:17
We have strong personalities.

00:47:43:18 00:47:44:23
I love that. I love when you see

00:47:44:24 00:47:46:04
yourself reflected in some way.

00:47:46:05 00:47:48:09
You're like, Oh, oh,

00:47:48:10 00:47:49:20
this okay?

00:47:49:21 00:47:51:09
I'm not alone in them.

00:47:51:10 00:47:53:04
Like, Yeah, I think, I think it's

00:47:53:05 00:47:54:22
just that trait of a tiger Libra

00:47:54:23 00:47:56:11
where we have, like, very strong

00:47:56:12 00:47:58:05
opinions, but we also try to see

00:47:58:06 00:47:59:16
things from different sides.

00:48:00:24 00:48:01:22
Very powerful.

00:48:01:23 00:48:02:21
Very powerful, but.

00:48:02:22 00:48:03:22
Yes, strong.

00:48:05:02 00:48:06:22
Oh, well, Ellie, I want to thank you

00:48:06:23 00:48:07:19
for your time.

00:48:07:20 00:48:09:18
I want to thank you for being

00:48:09:19 00:48:11:22
here with me today.

00:48:11:23 00:48:13:17
I know it's a lot earlier on

00:48:13:18 00:48:15:22
the west side of the country,

00:48:15:23 00:48:17:20
like I feel way deep in my

00:48:17:21 00:48:19:17
day, but really grateful for you

00:48:19:18 00:48:21:14
taking the time and then also just

00:48:21:15 00:48:24:06
sharing all of your observations

00:48:24:07 00:48:26:07
and the gifts. Just like.

00:48:26:08 00:48:28:07
Reminding us to, like, notice, you

00:48:28:08 00:48:29:16
know, like I'm I'm leaving this

00:48:29:17 00:48:31:03
conversation with some deep

00:48:31:04 00:48:33:08
reflections and just like, oh,

00:48:33:09 00:48:34:19
well, yeah, there are reasons why we

00:48:34:20 00:48:36:04
feel this way.

00:48:36:05 00:48:37:17
And sometimes it's not just like an

00:48:37:18 00:48:39:03
intellectual exercise.

00:48:39:04 00:48:40:16
And I really want to thank you for,

00:48:40:17 00:48:42:13
like, reminding us of

00:48:42:14 00:48:43:21
it's. Yeah, it's beyond just like,

00:48:43:22 00:48:45:04
our head and what we tell ourselves

00:48:45:05 00:48:46:07
in the head. Like, there's real

00:48:46:08 00:48:47:10
impacts of everything we're

00:48:47:11 00:48:48:21
navigating. And thank you for your

00:48:48:22 00:48:50:02
work.

00:48:50:03 00:48:51:24
Oh, thank you so much for

00:48:51:25 00:48:53:05
having me and having this

00:48:53:06 00:48:54:21
conversation. I think it was really

00:48:54:22 00:48:56:16
validating for me as well.

00:48:56:17 00:48:58:17
So make definitely

00:48:58:18 00:49:01:00
makes me feel less alone.

00:49:01:01 00:49:03:09
Yeah. I'd love to hear it.

00:49:03:10 00:49:04:04
Love to hear it.

00:49:04:05 00:49:06:04
Thank you. Thank you so much.

00:49:06:05 00:49:07:08
Of course.