Candace Dellacona: Welcome to the Sandwich Generation Survival Guide.
I am your host, Candace Dellacona, and I am thrilled today to be
joined by writer Beth Pinsker.
Beth is a certified financial planner and a columnist at MarketWatch,
which is actually how Beth and I met most recently though.
And importantly, Beth wrote a book called My Mother's Money that was released
just last month to great fanfare.
Welcome, Beth.
Beth Pinsker: So nice to be here.
Thank you.
Candace Dellacona: Thanks so much for joining us.
As I mentioned, you and I met, I think I was a source for one of your articles.
I think there are so many people who look to you as a thought leader
in the space of personal finance.
But before we get there, I know you had a bit of a roundabout way finding
yourself in this area of being what I think is an expert in sort of
the aging retirement money space.
So can you give us the inside scoop of how you landed in
this very specific niche, Beth.
Beth Pinsker: Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense to me or anybody else.
I started out as a film critic.
So I have really no rational way of explaining how I ended up being an
expert in this particular subject matter.
I just know I got more serious about my reporting subject matter as I went along,
and I ended up at Reuters as a retirement columnist, and that is when the CFP became
available to me, and I took the coursework and I got my CFP designation after passing
the test, and I just sort of dove in head first to all the subject matter.
I just really liked it and engaged with it.
And when it came time to take care of my mom, I knew all of these
things that were book learning.
And it turns out that when you have to take care of a of
somebody in your life who's ill.
It takes more street smarts than it does book learning.
And so I wanted to be able to help people through that, given that the
financial knowledge that I have and the way that the backend of the systems
work, I was, sort of able to explain it to people in real human terms, how
to get through the rest of this stuff that nobody ever talks about and nobody
ever, has an instruction manual for.
Candace Dellacona: I love that.
And what you kind of glossed over, which I think you should be
bragging a bit more, is to become an expert in your field as a writer.
You took the CFP, which is the Certified Financial Planning Exam
series, which for those of you who don't know, is no easy feat.
So, kudos to you Beth, for really taking on that role and kind of
diving in head first to become extremely educated in this area.
Because it is so vast and one of the things that you just said that.
I think is so true for all of our listeners and all of us in the
sandwich generation, is that there is no guide, there is no manual.
And what I hope with this podcast is to provide people a survival guide.
And that's why we have experts like you.
So talk to me a little about making the jump from a CBS Market Watch
columnist to actually putting the pieces together as an author.
And the overview of the book and how that process started for you.
Beth Pinsker: It really started with my column because I had just started at
MarketWatch when my mom had her surgery.
So I started at MarketWatch in like September of 2022, and my mom's
surgery was in November of that year.
So I was really brand new to this job.
I had been at Reuters for many years before I had been, various other places
doing personal finance journalism, but I was new to Market Watch.
And I'm sitting there, by my mom's bedside in Florida and I have a column due and
I'm thinking like my brain was just mush.
Like when you're sitting in a hospital room time stops.
Like you can't think about anything else but the task in front of you.
And I thought what am I gonna write about?
I need to turn something in.
And I was looking around, I'm like, I'll just write about this.
This is what retirement and, this is what it looks like in America these days.
Somebody's gotta take care of somebody else.
And so I did.
And that first column was about, all the information my mom had assembled
for me before she went and had surgery.
She had this like cheat sheet that she put together, this one sheet of paper that
was just like absolutely essential to me that had all of her pertinent information.
The healthcare, insurance coverage information, her Medicare information,
all her doctors, all her conditions, all her surgery, previous surgeries, all the
stuff you, as a 52-year-old woman at the time that I did not know about my mother.
Because, like I knew all those things about my own children, but
I didn't know them about my mother.
Like, what year was my mother's appendectomy?
You know who knew I wasn't around?
So she had all that stuff on a piece of paper.
So I wrote about that and I heard from so many people after I wrote that column.
And so each time I went through something with my mom that was
significant that I thought people needed to hear about, or, that if I
was having a hard time with it, other people were having a hard time with it.
And so I started to write about these.
I had the spine of my narrative starting with those columns.
And then my mom got really sick, and she went home on hospice and we had
about nine months of ups and downs.
And then she passed away.
And then I couldn't write any more columns 'cause I couldn't
face, writing about that.
I, like I had been writing about her illness for, a length of time.
And then it was like, okay, now I'm gonna have to, if I write about
this again, I'm gonna have to write a sentence that's like, I'm sorry
to have to tell you, but my mom has passed away and I couldn't do it.
Candace Dellacona: Yeah, I think that that's such a common emotion for so many
of us, where, we're sort of identified in some ways as a defacto caregiver, whether
it's financial or otherwise, and filling people in or even admitting to ourselves
that that part of our life is over.
But going back to what you said about creating the spine of this book, you
know, the infrastructure of this book with each of your articles, and for those
of us who are devotees of your work, it's pretty easy to see how you came
up with a book from all of the subject matters that you really were able to
attack and then translate for the rest of us trying to make our way through.
I think what's so unique about this book, Beth, is that you were a caregiver
for your mom, for her physical being and her daughter and her advocate.
But you really talked about and this book really became
caregiving in a financial sense.
And I think that that's really unique about your book.
I don't think that there's another book on the market that provides this depth.
Of exploratory and explanatory information into someone else's finances.
We all play roles where the daughter or the niece or the next door
neighbor who loves your elderly neighbor and trying to look out.
So when you think about that list that your mom started with, is that
where most of us in the middle, in the sandwich generation, is that
where we should begin with our aging parents asking them to start?
Beth Pinsker: Well, I think it actually starts a little bit earlier than that.
Because what we needed most of all, and this was like the second column
I wrote was the power of attorney and the healthcare proxy and a lot
of people skip over this, and I think it is the caregiver's, motive,
like the caregiver should be the one motivated to get this done.
And what I have been telling people to do and what I did it was as soon as my
father died, I said to my mother, you need take care of a few things for me
because now I'm responsible for you.
Right.
My, my mom and dad were both alive.
They were responsible for each other.
But when my father died, my mom became my responsibility.
If something happened to my mother, they're gonna make a phone call,
somebody's gonna make a phone call, and that phone call's gonna come to me.
And not just because I'm the daughter, although that is usually what happens
in American families these days, or families everywhere, I think is, the
core, I mean, some families have multiple daughters and some families don't have
daughters at all, but there's always somebody in the next generation and the
caregiving generation who is the doer.
The person who gets stuff done.
The person who assigns the dishes at Thanksgiving.
The person who tells everybody what to bring or where to go for the holidays.
That plans of vacations and that makes the phone calls and connects everybody.
There's always that person no matter what gender they are
in the family who is the doer.
It just happens that in, in many families, that that is a daughter
and it's often the eldest daughter.
I happen to be the only daughter in the family, and I have a brother but
I'm the one that gets stuff done.
And this is financial stuff, is my expertise anyways, so, if my mom
needed facts about Abraham Lincoln while she was sick, my brother
would've been fantastic at that.
Candace Dellacona: I wonder.
So that's interesting, but I wonder what he does, but, going into,
Beth Pinsker: college professor
Candace Dellacona: well that, okay.
Beth Pinsker: Like, go find a practical application for
that in a caregiving scenario.
So I can handle bills.
That's what I'm good at.
So I want caregivers out there, or potential caregivers, the doers in
the family to like email everybody that they are responsible for and
say, if you want me to be able to help you, I need these two documents.
I need a power of attorney and a healthcare proxy.
And I know in your business you would never do a plan for somebody
or plan for a family that did not include those two documents.
But there are people out there practicing estate planning, who
will do a will for you and won't and you come out of the process and
you don't have those two documents.
I don't understand how that happens.
And also, people go to their financial planners and their financial planners
say, you should have a trust.
You should have a what a will, you should have all these things.
And they leave out the power of attorney and the healthcare proxy.
And, it's not like a standard part of the package that you're necessarily getting.
And to me, the caregiver is the one under deadline, right?
If somebody dies and you don't have these documents, they're already dead.
And, you've got all the time in the universe to settle everything.
But when somebody's sick, everything's on a deadline.
Their mortgage still needs to be paid.
Their electric bill still needs to be paid, that you need to keep up
on their life insurance and their long-term care policy and all of these
things, and everything's on a deadline.
If you don't have the right paperwork you're like hitting a brick wall.
Candace Dellacona: Yeah.
And thank you for bringing that up, Beth.
As an estate planning attorney by trade, my first place is documents.
And I know that that's not everybody's first place, but as you point out, and for
those who are unfamiliar with what those documents are, a healthcare proxy and a
power of attorney are part of a category of documents called advanced directives.
And the reason why they call them advanced directives is because
it's your directive to say who's in charge in advance of your incapacity.
So a healthcare proxy is exactly what it sounds.
Some states call it a healthcare power of attorney.
There are other states who only have living wills, but in
essence they're the same thing.
It's appointing a person to speak for you in the event that you cannot articulate
your wishes in a healthcare setting.
And a power of attorney is similar, you're appointing a person to
make financial decisions for you.
So that's your person in the finance world and the healthcare proxy or
your healthcare power of attorney is your person in the healthcare world.
And I think one of the things that you said is really important, Beth, because
you talked about when the first spouse passed away, and I think you're right.
I think that kids think about these things, or sandwich generation
members if you will, think about these things almost a step too late.
You thinking about it and you having that direct conversation with your mom when
your dad passed away was so smart and it probably set you up for such success.
But, being a daughter and being a writer and being somebody who's pragmatic,
how do you start that conversation in a family that maybe doesn't talk about
such things for all sorts of reasons?
What's your best advice to our listeners to have that conversation after
something happens to the first spouse?
Beth Pinsker: My best advice to people is to ask your parents for their advice
because I found that the one universal thing about the older generation is that
they like for people to ask their opinion on things or to ask for their help.
And you get a lot further with older people if you ask them for their help.
For instance when I was going, when my father died slightly before that,
I had gotten my own estate plan done.
And I named my mother as the executor, the trustee, all of those things for me.
So I had to go to her and say, Hey I'm filling out all these
papers, I just got divorced.
And I don't wanna name my ex-husband as the trustee on any of these documents.
I wanna name you.
What do you think about that?
Can you take care of that for me?
And you know what's been your experience with this?
Have you ever done this for anybody else?
And, we had that conversation because I made it about her helping me.
And so when it came time when my father died, shortly after that, I was like,
okay, you know how you did that for me?
I wanna be able to do that for you.
You have all these documents you're gonna have to fill out, just like
me as a divorce person, suddenly single in the legal universe, you are
suddenly single in the legal universe.
You have to do the same thing that I just did, so you know,
what are you gonna do about it?
And it made that conversation go better because I asked her first to help
me before I offered my help to her.
Candace Dellacona: I love that because I think what you did was
symbolize your action symbolized that you appreciated her.
Respected her input and you weren't trying to take control away.
And I think that oftentimes the conversations with aging loved ones can
go awry because the conversation can sort of devolve, if you will, into sort
of an accusatory situations saying that you don't have the ability to do this
anymore, and I need to take that from you.
So, I love that, Beth, that you reframed it and a and sought
that advice from your mom.
So even for those out there who necessarily might not appoint their parent
as their agent under a healthcare proxy or a power of attorney, seeking their
advice on appointing someone, I think is a really beautiful way to, to do it.
And once you have those documents in place, Beth, you've had the
first conversation with mom or dad or your aging loved one.
You have that requisite authority.
What should the adult children do next?
How do they get into the nitty gritty of the finances without having a parent
feel like you're interfering or prying, especially when it comes to money.
Beth Pinsker: It can be difficult.
It think about it in terms of the conversation you have to have
when a parent should no longer be driving, taking away the car keys.
I like to, if you can baby step it a little bit.
The analogy I like to use is that all of this financial documentation
the power of attorney for financial stuff and also the healthcare proxy
are like having a spare key to the car or a spare key to the house.
Like you would never you would never expect your neighbor who has your
spare key for emergencies to come over and let themselves in at three
o'clock in the morning to make a cup of coffee uninvited, right?
That key is there in case you get locked out.
And so the really, the financial powers that you give somebody
for emergency purposes should really just be for emergencies.
They shouldn't be you shouldn't necessarily need a family member
right away to come in and take over.
'Cause then like you're obviously getting to it too late, right?
Like you should have those documents in place at for emergency purposes, from the
time a person is 18 years old, like, I have a power of attorney for my son who's
19 and we did it as soon as he turned 18.
Like this is just something an adult human being needs to have
on hand in case of emergencies.
And so if you normalize it so that it's just there in case you need it, then
you've already taken one little baby step.
Then when an emergency happens usually there's some sort of
mistake that's happened, right?
In, in my book I have various examples.
In one family, the mom forgot to take her required minimum
distribution one year 'cause she's having some cognitive problems.
And so her son, and, it's a big mess if you forget to take your required,
Candace Dellacona: Yeah, sure is.
Beth Pinsker: You, there are penalties.
You have to fill out paperwork and you wanna make sure it doesn't happen again.
So her son was able to step in and say, Hey mom, do you want some help with this?
I can help you.
I'm good at this stuff.
Other families, it's taxes.
In other families, it's a scam situation.
You realize that the adult family member is somehow giving away money or getting
money scam from them, and they need to have limited, more limited access to their
phone or to their, account disbursements.
Like you, you need to step in and say, Hey, you just lost,
almost lost, hopefully $10,000.
Let's try to see what we can do to make sure that doesn't happen again.
And sometimes taking away a phone is like taking away the car keys.
If a parent is getting in trouble because they have access to their
phone and they're answering scam phone calls, or they're making transactions
on their phone, they're clicking on links that they shouldn't, you know.
It's, it might be time to talk about taking away the phone.
Candace Dellacona: So let's talk about that a little bit.
'cause I did recently have a cybersecurity expert on one of the past episodes.
And when these scams, that sort of seep into our aging loved
one's lives are so sophisticated.
What is your best advice to those sandwich generation members out there
that are looking to shield their parents from falling victim to things
like that without taking away their car keys slash phones o r freedom.
Do you have any advice?
Beth Pinsker: Yeah, no, I recently had to talk a family member out
of a scam as it was happening.
Like he was on his phone with the scammers and I called on his wife's phone and I'm
like, put them on hold and talk to me.
And I, he was literally convinced he was dressed and ready to go
to the bank and take out cash.
The best way to forestall that is to be a trusted contact on, certain
accounts like a brokerage account, life insurance, that sort of account where
somebody at the institution can call you if there are, the known red flags.
If my relative had gone over to the bank and tried to withdraw $40,000 in cash,
some teller over at the bank should be trained enough to say, why is this ill
80-year-old man trying to take out a large amount of cash something is wrong.
And they if they see a trusted contact on the account, they will call that
trusted contact and say, your loved one is here, doesn't look well, and
they're trying to take out money in cash.
The brokerages in particular are trained to listen to people's voices on phone
calls and say, if they're asking for money in untraceable denominations of some
kind gift cards, money wire transfers, stuff that can't be pulled back in
cases of fraud, they're supposed to call the trusted contact if there is one.
Candace Dellacona: And so you can add a trusted contact
to any account, right beth?
Beth Pinsker: Really any account.
On a bank account, if you are the power of attorney on record with the
bank account, it acts in the same way.
But you can also then look in on the bank account where the daily
transactions are taking place.
And, you can have the bank app on your phone and you can check
what that parent is up to.
It's a little bit like spying.
It feels like it, but think about it from the reverse, sandwich generation,
reverse parenting perspective.
Like I would never hand my 19-year-old a credit card without teaching
him how to use it first, right?
And so the way you start out as a parent doing that is you have
them as an authorized user on your credit card, and then you
see what purchases they're making.
Then they get their own credit card where you might be a joint signer on
the credit card and you, you look over their bills with them and you make
sure that they're spending responsibly.
Same thing in reverse.
When somebody's 80 and they're experiencing a little bit of cognitive
decline, because everybody is at 80, you wanna keep an eye on things.
Like you don't have to interfere if nothing is going wrong, but
you can sort of spot check.
With my own mom, when I went to look at her bills and her statements and
stuff like that, I saw that she was giving away a lot of money to political
causes of her political denomination.
And she was on every mailing list and she literally, whoever asked her for money,
she just gave them money and it wasn't a great amount of money to each person.
It's not like she was giving away thousands and tens of
thousands of dollars at a time.
Whoever asked her got $25, $50 and it just added up to a bigger number than
I'm sure she was calculating in her head.
And the solicitations were just endless.
She had obviously triggered some mechanism in the system that just constantly
asked her for money and she gave it.
And I thought, there's something going wrong here, and I have to help
her moderate her impulse control.
Candace Dellacona: Yeah.
Yeah.
Beth Pinsker: In some way.
Candace Dellacona: And so, seeing a change in spending, for example,
is definitely something that people should look out for in terms of a red
flag, delaying on things like your required minimum distributions that
could have pretty significant financial consequences if you don't comply.
What are the other red flags, Beth as a sandwich generation member from a
financial perspective that we should look out for with our aging parents?
Beth Pinsker: Past due bills or just the inability to manage incoming
and outgoing correspondence.
My mom had been showing warning signs before her surgery that
we didn't know anything about.
And the biggest one was that she was in the middle of a long-term care
long-term care insurance claim, right?
So she had a the home health aide that was paid for through the long-term care
insurance, but she had to file receipts.
For that.
And the receipt filing process was like the most tedious and onerous thing I've
ever encountered in my entire life.
And I don't blame her for not being able to keep up on it, but she wasn't
telling us that she wasn't doing it.
And so with the long-term care claim, in her particular circumstance,
if you lapsed the paperwork for 90 days, you went out of claim.
So when you go out of claim, the consequence is that you
then owe them a premium.
Because when you're in claim, when you're getting money from them, they don't
expect you to pay them the premiums.
And these premiums are pretty steep, right?
One of the benefits of being in the middle of a claim is that
you don't owe them any money.
They owe you money, but she had stopped filling out the paperwork.
So suddenly when I got to her desk after her surgery there was a past
due notice from the long-term care and it was for almost $7,000, um,
that needed to be sent immediately.
They were very upset with this process and, there was a trusted contact
and they had reached out to us.
It all happened simultaneously, so at some point we would've
been notified like that week.
But we found out about it that week anyway.
And so the average amount that a caregiver spends out of pocket per
year according to AARP is about $7,200.
So in the first three weeks of taking care of my mom, I had
to send down a check for 6,800.
And then, if you consider my flight down there that was
my second flight down there.
So two flights, Ubers
Candace Dellacona: Meals.
Yeah.
Beth Pinsker: all of it.
I was over the yearly average in a month of out-of-pocket spending.
Now, I was gonna get that money back eventually.
But I had to write a check and like I don't keep that much money around in
my checking account on a normal basis.
And I have my own expenses and my own inflows and outflows, and it was hard
for me to put my hands on an extra, seven grand on a moment's notice.
But I had to FedEx a check the next day.
And of course the money came back to me like four months later, and it wasn't
FedEx to me, it was regular mail.
Candace Dellacona: course not.
Of course not.
Beth Pinsker: But you know, this is what a caregiver has to do.
And like sandwich generation, like I've got kids, I've got household
expenses, I've got my own life.
And, it's hard to juggle that sort of thing going on.
And, that's to me what like the sandwich generation pressures came mostly
financially from that sort of thing where I had to put my time and my own
money on the table when that money and time was needed elsewhere as well.
Both for my job and my life and my kids.
Candace Dellacona: And you bring up an important point, Beth,
in that we can't do it all.
And there is sort of a day of reckoning where you feel it,
or many days of reckoning.
And so you talk about your brother not necessarily being
the doer in this situation.
How do you recommend a sibling like you when you're the doer, how do you go to
your sibling and ask for help in a way that they actually wanna provide it.
What's your best advice for getting that extra assistance from
a sibling or someone else in the family to help you carry the load?
Beth Pinsker: Yeah it really requires communication and I know that some
families are not good about that.
My brother's very private and doesn't like to be brought into things.
So I left him out of the story mostly on purpose.
But we worked out a schedule that worked for both of us.
I had a remote friendly job and he doesn't but we worked out a schedule
so that he could go to visit my mom at the times when he was available
and I could go when when he.
We just worked out a leapfrog schedule, so we were never there at the same time.
'cause that would've created redundancies.
But he was there, as much as I was there.
And we were able to communicate well enough with each
other to make that happen.
And the thing about a lot of siblings is, from a lot of people, there's one sibling
in proximity and one sibling who has, moved away and the sibling in proximity
gets stuck with a lot of the daily tasks, and sometimes there's a sibling
that has money, and a sibling that's nearby, and they're not the same person.
And then, so the sibling who has money feels like the family,
ATM, like everybody's always getting money from that person.
And, whenever there's an emergency, they turn to that person and
that person then feels a little alienated that, that they're only
good for whatever, they can pay for.
And it's difficult.
The only way through any of these things is communication.
And the knowledge.
One of the things I was trying to do with my book is tell people
when they had an obligation and didn't have an obligation, right?
So there's no obligation, legally or financially to support your aging parents.
You are not on the hook for any of this.
You're not on the hook for their credit card debts.
You're not on the hook for paying for their medical care.
You are not, required to pay for a fancy nursing home.
You can outsource a lot of the hands-on physical care.
The thing is that when it comes to having that trusted person, that
trusted contact, the name you're gonna put on all those documents,
it's hard to get outta that one.
Candace Dellacona: Yeah.
Beth Pinsker: I don't know, like how many times have you seen it
in your practice that they put some random third party stranger?
It's rare,
Candace Dellacona: It is rare.
It is rare.
I think you bring up an important point, particularly with the
siblings and the communication part.
I think in every family we play a role, fortunately or unfortunately,
and whether that role is of financial support and that's what you're
known for or you're the doer.
I think it's really hard to break out of those roles.
What I found in my practice, particularly asking for help with
siblings is be specific in the request.
And share the fact that you can't do it all.
You're also raising kids.
In your case, you were, a full-time writer and a parent.
A single parent, and so you had to have your brother pitch in, and
I'm thrilled to hear that he did.
I think in some families it's incredibly difficult to cross
that bridge particularly if siblings have been reluctant.
And that's why really asking specifically for the things that you need and maybe
finding the skill that they're good at.
And that could be, doing long distance bookkeeping and being the person in
charge of making sure bills are paid.
So thinking outside the box.
And before I let you go, Beth, one of the things that I liked so much about
your book that I think is a really important distinction that is lost on a
lot of people, even well-meaning people.
You called your book My Mother's Money.
And I think that for those of us in this space, one of the hardest
things to get through to many family members is that it's not your
money, it's your mother's money.
And so what is your best advice for those of us who perhaps would not have
made the same choices that our parents did from a financial perspective and
finding a way to respect their choices while still caring for them in the best
possible way and respecting their agency.
Beth Pinsker: Yeah, it's really hard.
It's a really weird feeling and having gone through it, I, I don't have all
the answers to the emotional part of it because I'm still sorting through all
of that now that you know what, whatever was left of my mom's money became my
money, and that still feels weird to me.
Because, especially 'cause my mom was relatively, young for
an old person when she died.
And I would rather have had her around to spend that money herself
than have it for me or to send my kids to college or whatever.
But for my mom had been careful about her finances for her whole life.
And so when I took over managing her daily ins and outs, I wanted to respect that.
It was important to me to take care of things the way that, that
she took care of things herself.
But I broke the rules a lot.
My mom didn't believe in online banking, like many older people.
And there was just no way I could function without online banking.
So I just did it and hoped that she wasn't mad at me.
But there were things that I spent money on that I know that she
would not have spent money on.
And then she was worried about spending money on, and she was worried about
the money running out constantly.
And I think a lot of people have that fear and that fear goes both ways.
Because I understood the mechanics of the money, I knew how long
the money would last because I was able to run those numbers.
And I think part of there's a whole section of my book about
how to figure that part out.
And I think that if people had a more realistic understanding of the financial
picture that they would make better choices that would make everybody happier.
There would be less emergency selling of houses and moving to lesser
facilities or getting less help.
I think there would be better care for people if people were felt
free to spend the money and weren't afraid that it was gonna run out.
'Cause in these circumstances when somebody is sick, you have to
make the money last for less time.
And I think that's a reality that some people don't wanna face
when they're going through it.
But, I knew my mom's money was gonna last long enough for her
because she was really sick.
And the reality was is that, I wasn't planning for 20 years.
I was planning for six months.
And so I knew that we could have whatever she needed, even though she
was saying like, we can't afford all these caregivers, we can't afford
for me to stay in this facility.
And I was like, no, we can.
What are you saving the money for?
That's what this money is for.
And I think if people understood.
The greater financial picture and were able to run the numbers and got
some help with that when they needed it, that the caregiving would be
better and everybody's needs would be better suited because people
wouldn't be so afraid of running out.
Candace Dellacona: And that's why everyone should buy Beth's book because she has
really provided all of us with the guide that we need to figure out how to best
advocate for our parents from a financial perspective, which leads to all of it,
the best care and how to make sure that as we age our loved ones are cared for.
I think the other thing, Beth, that you've done really well is you
have two kids and you've done an incredible job of modeling for them
how best to advocate and to take care.
So bravo to you on that.
And really your book is truly the resource that so many of us need.
We will have in our show notes how to get it, but it's available at your
local bookstore on Amazon and any online platform where you buy your book.
So thank you so much, Beth, for joining us today.
Beth Pinsker: Thank you.
It was great to be here.
Candace Dellacona: Thanks.