WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.159 --> 00:00:03.249 Nathan: I would normally, typically random, ramble much more than that, 00:00:03.249 --> 00:00:06.579 but should we just, shall I just launch into what we're going to do 00:00:06.924 --> 00:00:07.454 Matt: Let's do it. 00:00:07.474 --> 00:00:10.664 We can, we can launch together where it's the multiverse. 00:00:10.734 --> 00:00:12.844 The timelines are both crossing. 00:00:13.459 --> 00:00:13.729 Nathan: Okay. 00:00:13.729 --> 00:00:15.339 In which case, I'm going to do it like this. 00:00:15.340 --> 00:00:18.469 Okay, Matt, who's going first, me or you? 00:00:19.504 --> 00:00:20.464 Matt: you know what you can go 00:00:20.589 --> 00:00:21.559 Nathan: Okay, I'll go first. 00:00:21.609 --> 00:00:24.409 The reason I'm going to have to ask that question will become 00:00:24.409 --> 00:00:26.189 obvious in about three seconds time. 00:00:26.579 --> 00:00:30.549 Matt and I are doing a podcast together, but it's going to end up in 00:00:30.549 --> 00:00:34.919 two different podcast clients because it's going to go into his podcast and 00:00:34.969 --> 00:00:37.159 my podcast, so that's kind of weird. 00:00:37.199 --> 00:00:37.879 Fairly new. 00:00:38.549 --> 00:00:39.779 Matt: Yes, this is new. 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:44.739 And, let me just ask you before we dive into the WordPress and AI stuff 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:46.989 and the life changing technology. 00:00:47.499 --> 00:00:49.659 let's just talk about this old dog of podcasting. 00:00:50.289 --> 00:00:55.209 You've been doing video for as probably as long as I have, and audio. 00:00:56.189 --> 00:01:01.709 Have you been following the recent trend of the industry at large saying, 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:04.559 Podcasting is now video and not audio. 00:01:04.609 --> 00:01:05.979 And what's your gut reaction? 00:01:06.254 --> 00:01:10.444 Nathan: My gut reaction is to firstly make a massive confession. 00:01:10.794 --> 00:01:14.074 And that is that the podcast platform that we're using to record this is 00:01:14.074 --> 00:01:15.934 currently not recording the video. 00:01:16.124 --> 00:01:17.724 Have I made a giant error? 00:01:20.679 --> 00:01:22.239 Matt: but you do live streaming, right? 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:25.499 So do you, you consider the live stream, the podcast, a podcast as 00:01:25.594 --> 00:01:26.344 Nathan: Yeah, I do. 00:01:26.344 --> 00:01:31.894 And my, my thing is all audio, I'm all in with audio and I'll tell you why. 00:01:32.044 --> 00:01:35.794 It's a personal preference and it's based upon my childhood really. 00:01:35.794 --> 00:01:38.724 When I was a, when I was a child, we had, we had audio on 00:01:38.724 --> 00:01:40.404 in the kitchen all the time. 00:01:40.784 --> 00:01:43.874 And it occurred to me at an early age, I wasn't told this, but it occurred to me 00:01:43.874 --> 00:01:47.744 that I could do things at the same time as listening to the audio do things, which I. 00:01:48.029 --> 00:01:50.899 Wanted to get done, you know, and it might be chores around the 00:01:50.899 --> 00:01:53.419 house or DIY or whatever it may be. 00:01:53.969 --> 00:01:58.709 And I've always preferred the radio to the TV. 00:01:58.739 --> 00:02:00.839 I watch very little TV. 00:02:01.304 --> 00:02:05.094 But I consume a massive amount of, well, I don't consume much radio anymore. 00:02:05.104 --> 00:02:06.214 It's all podcasts. 00:02:06.564 --> 00:02:09.974 So for me, audio all the way, very conscious decision. 00:02:10.314 --> 00:02:14.554 And the only reason that I record my show on a Monday as a video is because 00:02:14.554 --> 00:02:16.564 it's the only real way to do that. 00:02:16.934 --> 00:02:20.515 but it gets recycled as a, as a sort of audio podcast episode. 00:02:20.515 --> 00:02:22.325 And that's where, that's where my audience is. 00:02:22.325 --> 00:02:24.145 It's not really on YouTube or anything. 00:02:24.145 --> 00:02:24.785 What about you? 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:27.899 Matt: tons of podcasts, audio podcasts. 00:02:27.929 --> 00:02:30.199 And, and I do jump between. 00:02:30.504 --> 00:02:34.414 YouTube and, you know, my favorite podcast app, of the week. 00:02:34.884 --> 00:02:39.014 And, it's, it's, it's great, but I will always defend audio. 00:02:39.454 --> 00:02:43.454 Because, listen, when it comes to a, just production level, right, as 00:02:43.464 --> 00:02:49.704 you know, it's just so much easier to, do audio than it is video. 00:02:49.959 --> 00:02:54.199 Every second counts, excuse me, the train is moving above my head right now. 00:02:54.339 --> 00:02:55.039 Nathan: I wondered what that 00:02:55.269 --> 00:02:59.339 Matt: counts, every second counts, in, in editing and production and setting up. 00:02:59.339 --> 00:03:02.099 So I am, all in with audio. 00:03:02.129 --> 00:03:06.959 I recently launched another project called Our Beloved Medium, which 00:03:06.959 --> 00:03:14.769 is an audio documentary slash, fictional Entertainment series. 00:03:15.139 --> 00:03:19.859 And if we did video with that, it would have been a motion picture. 00:03:20.509 --> 00:03:23.209 It would have, we would have to hire actors, actors. 00:03:23.269 --> 00:03:26.919 I mean, it was impossible to produce what we produce with audio, 00:03:27.329 --> 00:03:30.799 which is story, voice, acting, sound effects, all this stuff. 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:34.119 If we did that in video, we'd have to go to Hollywood and 00:03:34.129 --> 00:03:35.749 ain't got the budget for that. 00:03:35.889 --> 00:03:36.459 Nathan: did that go? 00:03:36.489 --> 00:03:40.369 Because when we sat down, because Matt and I sat down at WordCamp US 00:03:40.389 --> 00:03:44.119 in Portland, and you were talking about that becoming a thing. 00:03:44.129 --> 00:03:47.169 I think you'd even cast like voice actors and things like that at the time. 00:03:47.249 --> 00:03:48.539 So that's now shipped, is it? 00:03:48.539 --> 00:03:49.189 And you've done it. 00:03:49.189 --> 00:03:52.589 Matt: yeah, we, we have the first episode out and this is the episode 00:03:52.589 --> 00:03:57.089 that we're sort of using as the, the carrot on the stick to get, 00:03:57.319 --> 00:03:59.140 some sponsorship dollars out there. 00:03:59.159 --> 00:03:59.769 RSS. 00:03:59.770 --> 00:04:02.990 com, podcast hosting company is the, is the first one to, to help us out 00:04:02.990 --> 00:04:05.160 with a, a nice chunk of, of cash. 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:08.670 Helped us get our first, you know, pay for our first voice 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:10.760 actor and get this off the ground. 00:04:10.780 --> 00:04:12.750 I have a small part in it. 00:04:13.150 --> 00:04:15.950 you know, it's the, it's the last radio station on Earth. 00:04:16.020 --> 00:04:18.320 It's, there's this company called Opus 3000. 00:04:18.320 --> 00:04:21.330 It's taking over all of the, radio stations. 00:04:21.350 --> 00:04:26.170 And, we're the last radio station on Earth broadcasting stories, of 00:04:26.220 --> 00:04:28.680 radio importance throughout humanity. 00:04:28.970 --> 00:04:31.600 And I'm the general manager of WFYZ. 00:04:31.740 --> 00:04:34.560 Yes, it's a, it's a, it's a bit of a drama. 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:38.890 It's a true documentary as we interview folks who have covered the 00:04:38.890 --> 00:04:42.260 space over the last, you know, 20, 30 years that we can reach out to. 00:04:42.260 --> 00:04:45.046 And it's 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:49.020 Nathan: Do you, like, okay, sorry audience, we're just going to totally 00:04:49.020 --> 00:04:50.400 digress here, but this is fun. 00:04:50.690 --> 00:04:54.210 would you, would you drop the, the bits and pieces that you've done 00:04:54.210 --> 00:04:55.650 for the last sort of 20 years? 00:04:55.750 --> 00:04:58.270 Like the, you know, the tech based podcasting and all of that. 00:04:58.530 --> 00:05:01.560 Is, have you enjoyed it enough to think, gosh, if I could pivot to 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:03.160 that, that would be where I'd end up? 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.840 Matt: because I, you know, I think it's still the act, you know, of creating art. 00:05:09.130 --> 00:05:10.060 It's an art form. 00:05:10.570 --> 00:05:11.160 for me, right? 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.200 Like, the WP Minute is an art form for me. 00:05:14.640 --> 00:05:18.680 it's a way of storytelling, through, you know, highlighting stuff, that 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:20.090 folks have done in the WordPress space. 00:05:20.540 --> 00:05:22.410 And I see it, you know, very similar. 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:27.050 if all of a sudden this took off, and somebody was like, Hey, you have a book 00:05:27.100 --> 00:05:32.730 deal or a movie deal out of this, out of this, audio story that you put together? 00:05:33.130 --> 00:05:36.590 I mean, yes, I could see myself being like, Hey, you know what, WordPress? 00:05:36.900 --> 00:05:38.670 That was fun, but now I'm gonna 00:05:38.705 --> 00:05:42.225 Nathan: Yeah, because it, although I know it's like striking a vein 00:05:42.225 --> 00:05:45.965 of gold, if you're a, you know, a gold miner, the few people that 00:05:45.975 --> 00:05:49.945 do do that, it's retireable, it's retireable amounts of money, isn't it? 00:05:49.945 --> 00:05:53.365 You know, you can have one hit and it'd be the, the end of your working 00:05:53.365 --> 00:05:54.855 life if you choose to go that way. 00:05:55.185 --> 00:05:58.415 Whereas the enterprise that we're involved with, tech news, particularly 00:05:58.415 --> 00:06:01.365 WordPress tech news, there's a, there's a small audience for that. 00:06:01.375 --> 00:06:04.935 It's a much more of a slog and you'll never, ever. 00:06:05.210 --> 00:06:09.680 Hit that, gold sort of thread of gold that enabled you to retire. 00:06:09.740 --> 00:06:11.290 Gosh, that's really interesting. 00:06:11.500 --> 00:06:13.340 I pray for you that that works out. 00:06:13.340 --> 00:06:14.310 That'd be great. 00:06:15.085 --> 00:06:16.075 Matt: it's not the intent. 00:06:16.545 --> 00:06:19.175 it's not the intent by any stretch of the imagination, right? 00:06:19.185 --> 00:06:23.245 The, yeah, you know, the particular challenge for me with this project, Our 00:06:23.245 --> 00:06:27.185 Beloved Medium, is to work, with a, a former colleague of mine, Stuart Barefoot. 00:06:27.195 --> 00:06:31.735 He's the, he is the, the creator behind this, and he's the editor. 00:06:31.775 --> 00:06:33.115 I'm the executive producer. 00:06:33.370 --> 00:06:37.080 The challenge for me was I want to wear the executive producer title. 00:06:37.860 --> 00:06:41.800 Like I want to, I want to learn that space, which is like largely what I 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:45.770 do already for the WP minute, which is awareness, finance, like getting 00:06:45.780 --> 00:06:50.970 sponsorship dollars and, you know, having some creative angle on, on 00:06:50.980 --> 00:06:52.290 the stuff that we're going after. 00:06:52.590 --> 00:06:56.310 But the WordPress stuff, you know, I think maybe another phrase for it is 00:06:56.310 --> 00:06:59.870 like, this stuff is a labor of love, the stuff that you do, the stuff that 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:05.050 I do, this is a very small, you know, this is a very small me air quotes media 00:07:05.080 --> 00:07:09.540 opportunity for folks like you and I, and I'm sure we, we can get into it, but, 00:07:09.550 --> 00:07:13.260 you know, we've seen other folks come into this space and come and go because 00:07:13.640 --> 00:07:16.930 they're approaching it from, Like the typical, like, I want to be a YouTuber 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:19.830 or I want to be this content creator that sells courses and do other stuff. 00:07:20.190 --> 00:07:21.330 It's that's fine. 00:07:21.350 --> 00:07:22.320 It's a fine goal. 00:07:22.670 --> 00:07:26.520 but the attention in the audience for WordPress feels 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:28.950 big, but it's very, very tiny. 00:07:28.950 --> 00:07:34.670 I've always said 10, 000 English speaking humans in the world, maximum 00:07:34.910 --> 00:07:36.860 care about the stuff that you and I. 00:07:37.260 --> 00:07:38.840 Well, at least the stuff that I talk about. 00:07:38.840 --> 00:07:40.360 I don't want to, I don't want to cast the 10, 00:07:40.465 --> 00:07:42.605 Nathan: No, I think, I think it's a smaller number for me. 00:07:42.740 --> 00:07:46.840 Matt: yeah, yeah, so like that, like, that's the way that, that I see it. 00:07:47.220 --> 00:07:51.490 so you really, like the stuff that, that you and I do tirelessly doing this and 00:07:51.690 --> 00:07:56.320 folks like Ray, folks at WP, Mayor, you know, these, these folks who haven't 00:07:56.320 --> 00:08:00.180 given up on this space, you know, we're doing it because we love WordPress and, 00:08:00.260 --> 00:08:01.950 and that's the, that's the motivation. 00:08:02.435 --> 00:08:03.255 Nathan: fascinating though. 00:08:03.295 --> 00:08:06.355 Honestly, seriously, I really wish you the best of luck with that. 00:08:06.375 --> 00:08:09.245 When, when you've got it all, you know, when we finish recording this, 00:08:09.295 --> 00:08:10.635 can you send me the links for that? 00:08:10.665 --> 00:08:11.305 I want to listen. 00:08:11.900 --> 00:08:12.484 Matt: we'll do. 00:08:12.625 --> 00:08:12.955 Nathan: Okay. 00:08:12.975 --> 00:08:13.485 So. 00:08:13.820 --> 00:08:15.540 It's Matt Madeiros, it's me. 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.340 We're going to be talking about, AI because everybody's talking about AI, 00:08:19.340 --> 00:08:20.720 but particularly in the WordPress space. 00:08:20.870 --> 00:08:23.370 So I'm going to, I'm going to lay my cards on the table, Matt. 00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:26.960 I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to AI, I haven't really 00:08:26.960 --> 00:08:28.400 explored it very much personally. 00:08:28.400 --> 00:08:31.320 So more or less everything that I have to say comes third hand, 00:08:31.900 --> 00:08:36.220 but the tiny forays that I've made into it have really frustrated me. 00:08:36.655 --> 00:08:38.995 And I found more or less nothing works. 00:08:39.295 --> 00:08:43.165 So I was at a meetup in London the other day, and I, I was sitting at the 00:08:43.165 --> 00:08:48.255 front and I said to the audience, I tried four things the other day, on AI, 00:08:48.275 --> 00:08:49.885 how many of them do you think worked? 00:08:49.935 --> 00:08:52.305 And the response came back, all four. 00:08:53.115 --> 00:08:56.515 And I was like, no, it was none, none of the things that I tried worked, 00:08:56.705 --> 00:08:58.665 absolutely nothing that I tried worked. 00:08:58.965 --> 00:09:02.435 And so that tells me, A, that I don't ask it the right things, because 00:09:02.435 --> 00:09:05.555 I'm sure that the basic stuff that I was asking is in the realms of AI. 00:09:06.235 --> 00:09:09.135 but B, I haven't really played with it enough to, to learn that 00:09:09.165 --> 00:09:10.515 I was making those mistakes. 00:09:10.735 --> 00:09:15.830 You, on the other hand, you've like taken all your You've rolled up your trousers, 00:09:15.830 --> 00:09:20.470 you've jumped in the lake, and it seems that you're like a real adept now. 00:09:20.470 --> 00:09:25.460 You're like pro, pro, super pro AI person. 00:09:26.535 --> 00:09:31.705 Matt: Well, Nathan, what you've forgotten is I sold cars for a lot of my life and 00:09:31.715 --> 00:09:33.865 I'm pretty good at selling the story. 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.950 Nathan: Okay, so many, many, many, many hours of banging 00:09:36.950 --> 00:09:37.830 your head against the wall, eh? 00:09:39.055 --> 00:09:42.985 Matt: I'm just a, what I would say just a few paces ahead of you, you know, 00:09:43.015 --> 00:09:45.135 on, on this, on this learning curve. 00:09:45.505 --> 00:09:49.305 but yes, I, I recently, put out a, an app called an app. 00:09:49.945 --> 00:09:51.115 Let's call it what it is. 00:09:51.115 --> 00:09:54.415 It's an RSS reader slash aggregator. 00:09:54.645 --> 00:09:56.765 You can find it at pulsewp. 00:09:56.795 --> 00:09:57.405 cc. 00:09:57.765 --> 00:10:01.945 And, it was just a way for me to exercise the idea of building something with AI. 00:10:02.205 --> 00:10:05.595 And, largely solving a problem that I have every day, which is, How do I 00:10:05.595 --> 00:10:07.395 keep up with all the WordPress news? 00:10:08.165 --> 00:10:09.495 you know, but my way, right? 00:10:09.505 --> 00:10:12.465 You know, I have, I'm gonna forget the name of the app that I have on my phone. 00:10:12.535 --> 00:10:15.005 net something that I use as an RSS reader. 00:10:15.825 --> 00:10:18.605 And it scoops up everything and I have my newsletters and I have 00:10:18.655 --> 00:10:19.885 obviously my slack channels. 00:10:20.215 --> 00:10:24.625 and That keeps a, that keeps a pulse on things for me and I was like, 00:10:25.045 --> 00:10:26.345 there's some things I want to do. 00:10:26.355 --> 00:10:28.925 Like I want to be able to summarize these things quickly. 00:10:29.175 --> 00:10:33.135 I want to have like little social media messages automatically 00:10:33.135 --> 00:10:36.825 made for me for every new article so I can share these out. 00:10:37.275 --> 00:10:40.014 And then I started building it. 00:10:40.015 --> 00:10:43.015 And we can break down how I did that, but that's how it was born. 00:10:43.045 --> 00:10:48.550 It took Forty ish hours up until this point to do what I did. 00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:50.410 lots of failing. 00:10:50.680 --> 00:10:51.850 lots of experimenting. 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:53.500 Nathan: the 40 hours include the failing? 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:54.860 Matt: Oh, yeah. 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.230 Nathan: Oh, that's not as bad. 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.060 I would have thought it would have been a lot more than that. 00:10:58.330 --> 00:11:01.280 But have it, but I know that you just said a minute ago that you're 00:11:01.280 --> 00:11:04.310 a good storyteller and sold cars and you can put a spin on all of that. 00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:08.880 It does seem though, from everything that I've seen and the tenor of your language, 00:11:09.050 --> 00:11:10.869 it does seem that this has captured you. 00:11:11.020 --> 00:11:15.480 It's not like, you know, you wouldn't have got to hour 40 if it was pure frustration. 00:11:15.870 --> 00:11:19.590 I'm presuming that, you know, at hour 2 and hour 6 and hour 10 00:11:19.590 --> 00:11:22.850 or whatever, there were moments of, whoa, look what I just did! 00:11:23.570 --> 00:11:23.970 Matt: Yeah. 00:11:24.310 --> 00:11:25.340 so here's the biggest thing. 00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:29.060 For me and, and I hope, and I'm sure you can relate to this too with your 00:11:29.070 --> 00:11:32.880 stint with Drupal, way back in the day, CCK and views and all this stuff. 00:11:32.880 --> 00:11:35.630 those moments were very powerful for me, right? 00:11:35.660 --> 00:11:40.840 When I installed my first PHP Nuke bulletin board, I was like, 00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:43.320 Whoa, this is awesome, right? 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.740 Like I put a lamp, like before I even knew the terminology, 00:11:45.740 --> 00:11:47.170 I put a lamp stack together. 00:11:47.490 --> 00:11:48.970 I installed PHP bulletin board. 00:11:48.970 --> 00:11:51.430 I access it through a browser on another computer. 00:11:51.705 --> 00:11:53.845 Like, this is amazing, right? 00:11:54.025 --> 00:11:57.785 Poking holes in the firewall and accessing it, from your, you know, home server. 00:11:57.785 --> 00:11:58.855 Like, this was amazing stuff. 00:11:59.255 --> 00:12:03.285 And then you learn Drupal and, like, the web and the technology and CCK and 00:12:03.285 --> 00:12:06.485 Vues makes you feel like a PHP developer and you're like, wow, this is awesome. 00:12:06.705 --> 00:12:07.905 Fast forward, WordPress. 00:12:08.095 --> 00:12:12.535 You have those same shining moments, 2008, 2009, where you're like, I'm 00:12:12.535 --> 00:12:15.125 solving problems for clients, I'm charging money, I'm building a business. 00:12:15.635 --> 00:12:21.725 This AI stuff, it's like that same moment in time where it's like, Wow, I just 00:12:21.735 --> 00:12:26.965 built this app and it becomes this thing that you just constantly want to do. 00:12:27.445 --> 00:12:31.575 I will say, a little bit of, like, I'm not a gambler, but it feels 00:12:31.575 --> 00:12:32.535 like a little bit of gambling. 00:12:33.255 --> 00:12:36.035 Cause every time you send it the prompt, you're like, is it gonna get it? 00:12:36.035 --> 00:12:36.235 Is it 00:12:36.390 --> 00:12:36.750 Nathan: yeah, yeah, 00:12:37.075 --> 00:12:37.415 Matt: get it? 00:12:37.695 --> 00:12:39.245 And then it gets it, and you're like, yes! 00:12:39.860 --> 00:12:41.580 Nathan: or at least it looks like it got it, 00:12:41.715 --> 00:12:43.395 Matt: Right, it looks like I got it. 00:12:43.405 --> 00:12:46.785 So it feels like it's, it's fun right now. 00:12:47.055 --> 00:12:50.305 and you know, that's, that's what I'm, that's why I'm liking it. 00:12:50.645 --> 00:12:52.465 But, let me just ask you this question. 00:12:52.920 --> 00:12:56.320 With your failed attempts were you doing those in like chat 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.350 GPT or like a vanilla sort? 00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:00.250 I'll call a vanilla AI prompt 00:13:00.425 --> 00:13:02.675 Nathan: I was, I was doing it in chat GPT. 00:13:02.675 --> 00:13:07.365 So a client on the Mac for chat GPT and I was asking it discreet questions, but 00:13:07.365 --> 00:13:12.115 my discreet questions were so confined and constrained that I presumed that 00:13:12.135 --> 00:13:16.995 it was to do with getting a loop and connecting two different custom post types 00:13:17.285 --> 00:13:19.005 and, you know, comparing one against. 00:13:19.075 --> 00:13:22.235 The other, it was the kind of thing which any decent developer I think 00:13:22.235 --> 00:13:24.395 would knock off with their eyes closed. 00:13:24.795 --> 00:13:27.055 And so I thought that this would be fairly possible. 00:13:27.075 --> 00:13:28.295 No, it really wasn't. 00:13:28.335 --> 00:13:29.775 It took many, many, many attempts. 00:13:29.985 --> 00:13:33.705 I've subsequently learned from somebody in the WordPress space, Tim Nash, 00:13:33.705 --> 00:13:38.035 actually, that if you ask it and you literally append at the end, can 00:13:38.045 --> 00:13:42.955 you make the output, use WordPress coding standards that immediately 00:13:42.955 --> 00:13:45.025 will make it more or less better. 00:13:45.385 --> 00:13:46.225 and I didn't know that. 00:13:46.375 --> 00:13:50.705 But so everything that I got was wrong, but I wasn't using any 00:13:50.705 --> 00:13:52.345 kind of, environment or setup. 00:13:52.345 --> 00:13:55.685 I was literally asking the pure, chat GPT. 00:13:55.725 --> 00:13:57.535 And so maybe there's a mistake that I made there. 00:13:58.390 --> 00:14:02.230 Matt: Yeah, were you were you was your intent to build it as like a proper plug 00:14:02.355 --> 00:14:02.835 Nathan: Yes. 00:14:02.865 --> 00:14:06.595 But first of all, I just wanted to, to see what the output would be if the simple 00:14:06.605 --> 00:14:10.125 things, and I've tried it at various different points and it has succeeded. 00:14:10.125 --> 00:14:12.975 But in those cases, it was something so very, very minor. 00:14:13.665 --> 00:14:16.365 but yeah, I haven't set up the, the development environment and everybody, 00:14:16.395 --> 00:14:18.905 everybody at the minute seems to be talking about this thing called cursor. 00:14:19.225 --> 00:14:23.065 I don't really even know what that means, but, the principle being that 00:14:23.065 --> 00:14:25.725 there's, there's an environment, there's a setup, there's tools that you 00:14:25.725 --> 00:14:28.935 can get that are better and superior and advancing at a faster pace. 00:14:29.205 --> 00:14:30.605 I wasn't using any of that. 00:14:30.975 --> 00:14:32.295 Can I just ask you a question? 00:14:32.665 --> 00:14:35.645 This is a weird question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. 00:14:35.845 --> 00:14:38.515 Do you feel in relationship with this thing? 00:14:38.885 --> 00:14:41.815 Do you feel like when you sit down and ask it these questions, do you 00:14:41.815 --> 00:14:45.365 feel disappointment in it when it doesn't give you something back? 00:14:45.385 --> 00:14:48.075 And do you feel like happiness for it and for you? 00:14:48.075 --> 00:14:51.415 And, you know, is there some sort of, and I, that's weird. 00:14:51.415 --> 00:14:54.625 I know I don't mean relationship, but do you, are you drawn to it? 00:14:54.635 --> 00:14:56.515 When you sit down and you sort of like, right, some more 00:14:56.545 --> 00:14:57.965 AI smashing, let's crack on. 00:14:57.965 --> 00:14:58.845 This is exciting. 00:14:59.810 --> 00:15:04.410 Matt: is, like back to that gambling thing, or like, when I was younger, 00:15:04.410 --> 00:15:08.605 like video games, like You know, when I played, I don't know, whatever, your 00:15:08.785 --> 00:15:11.055 favorite video game, you know, back in the day, where you were like, you have 00:15:11.055 --> 00:15:14.545 to clear the map, you have to hit all the points, and like, get the trophy 00:15:14.545 --> 00:15:16.755 or whatever, that's what it feels like. 00:15:16.855 --> 00:15:20.125 I don't feel, I think what maybe you're saying is like, do I feel like I'm, cause 00:15:20.285 --> 00:15:22.895 I've heard this before, where people sit down and it's like, oh, I talk to 00:15:22.915 --> 00:15:27.805 ChatGBD all day, it's like my, it's like my buddy, I don't feel that, but it's, 00:15:28.275 --> 00:15:34.305 it's wanting that output, to make me feel like, alright, this is gonna get done. 00:15:35.175 --> 00:15:39.975 And I'll tell you why, because as somebody who, so the app that I 00:15:39.975 --> 00:15:42.595 built, PulseWP, it is React, right? 00:15:42.615 --> 00:15:46.255 This is not WordPress, this is not PHP, that's not, you know, it's largely 00:15:46.295 --> 00:15:48.275 React and JavaScript, which I know. 00:15:48.690 --> 00:15:50.010 0 percent 00:15:50.165 --> 00:15:50.535 Nathan: Yeah. 00:15:50.605 --> 00:15:50.845 Yeah. 00:15:50.845 --> 00:15:51.635 We'll join the club. 00:15:51.690 --> 00:15:55.240 Matt: I mean, I know a little bit more now, which, you know, is great. 00:15:55.250 --> 00:15:57.710 This is a great side effect of playing with this stuff is you 00:15:57.710 --> 00:16:03.130 do get to learn APIs and routes and how react is structured and 00:16:03.130 --> 00:16:04.700 pulling in components and libraries. 00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.670 And you really start to learn like the fundamentals, just like 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:10.670 when you were hacking away at a WordPress site 15 years ago, you 00:16:10.670 --> 00:16:11.850 were learning what this stuff does. 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.250 Now I'm doing the same thing at a faster pace. 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:16.210 But because I know nothing, Okay. 00:16:16.445 --> 00:16:21.385 I rely 100 percent on the agent to build the thing, right? 00:16:21.555 --> 00:16:25.775 So what that means is and why this feels kind of like a video game 00:16:25.775 --> 00:16:30.235 slash like a slot machine that you pull the handle down on is because 00:16:30.565 --> 00:16:32.155 it take it actually takes time. 00:16:32.465 --> 00:16:36.765 So if you're asking it to build something complex, you ask it and then 00:16:36.775 --> 00:16:40.885 you wait and you stare at the screen and you go and I'm just waiting for 00:16:40.885 --> 00:16:43.765 it to finish and I've found myself. 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:48.260 Now, when I was really like deep into building that app, launching a 00:16:48.260 --> 00:16:52.390 prompt over here and one tab, sending another prompt in another tab, asking 00:16:52.390 --> 00:16:55.120 it to like, think ahead about the next feature that I was working on. 00:16:55.330 --> 00:16:58.310 So it's this thing where you're just waiting for the output. 00:16:58.380 --> 00:17:00.950 It's time consuming and it feels like. 00:17:01.370 --> 00:17:04.610 I guess I'll call it work because you're just waiting for this thing 00:17:04.610 --> 00:17:07.370 to do the task and you have no say. 00:17:07.370 --> 00:17:10.610 And if it fails, which it does, very often you have to then 00:17:10.610 --> 00:17:12.710 go back and say, do it again. 00:17:12.860 --> 00:17:14.480 But now think about it this way. 00:17:14.840 --> 00:17:18.650 And then wait for that output to to, to finish. 00:17:18.890 --> 00:17:23.600 And you have to wait to see if you're getting the goal that you're after . And 00:17:23.600 --> 00:17:28.130 it does feel like little levels in a video game, like, can I beat this level today? 00:17:28.945 --> 00:17:32.195 And like, that's the connection that I have with it, because, 00:17:32.335 --> 00:17:35.415 again, it's making me feel powerful. 00:17:35.585 --> 00:17:40.135 People are seeing these features, I'm shipping, air quotes, features, that 00:17:40.135 --> 00:17:41.965 makes me feel like a proper developer. 00:17:42.305 --> 00:17:45.115 Nathan: So I was going to ask that, that was going to be another question and it 00:17:45.115 --> 00:17:48.815 was, and I think you've just answered it because when you said that you did 00:17:48.815 --> 00:17:52.665 air quotes, your fingers went up and you did air quotes, who, who built this? 00:17:53.370 --> 00:17:54.510 Basically is my question. 00:17:54.520 --> 00:17:56.870 Did you build it or did something else build it? 00:17:57.525 --> 00:17:58.465 Matt: Something else built it. 00:17:58.570 --> 00:17:59.250 Nathan: And, and, and 00:17:59.335 --> 00:18:00.315 Matt: had the idea. 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:05.530 Nathan: how like the, the people like me with no coding capabilities whatsoever, 00:18:05.710 --> 00:18:09.960 I would feel that compulsion as well, I would fall over myself to, to kind 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:14.670 of explain, look, I didn't do this, it was chat GPT, or whatever it may 00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:19.090 be the latest thing, but it, but it's curious how, well, you, you did do it. 00:18:19.600 --> 00:18:23.190 But you did it with the assistance of some other thing. 00:18:23.210 --> 00:18:25.250 But it definitely couldn't have been done without you. 00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:27.960 Or I suppose without So it's like a team effort almost. 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:28.660 It's kind of weird. 00:18:28.885 --> 00:18:30.075 Matt: Yeah, yeah. 00:18:30.125 --> 00:18:34.505 And you know, I would fast track the, like to fast track the concept of. 00:18:34.860 --> 00:18:38.020 You know, if you, if you open up your favorite social media platform, if you 00:18:38.020 --> 00:18:43.900 have one and you look at, you know, the, the discourse around AI right now, it's 00:18:43.900 --> 00:18:47.960 either this thing is replacing all of us, or this thing is replacing none of us. 00:18:48.320 --> 00:18:51.430 you know, like everything else in my life anyway, I kind of see 00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:54.150 it somewhere in the middle and. 00:18:54.345 --> 00:18:54.685 You know, 00:18:54.780 --> 00:18:55.150 Nathan: us. 00:18:55.150 --> 00:18:56.436 Ha ha ha ha 00:18:56.495 --> 00:18:56.735 Matt: of us. 00:18:57.415 --> 00:18:58.075 See you later. 00:18:58.075 --> 00:18:59.625 One of, one out of two of us on this 00:18:59.770 --> 00:19:02.330 Nathan: Either that or half, half literally of us. 00:19:02.370 --> 00:19:04.890 One half of me and one half of you. 00:19:04.890 --> 00:19:06.270 Ha ha ha ha ha! 00:19:06.775 --> 00:19:10.135 Matt: and, you know, these, these tools are great. 00:19:10.155 --> 00:19:15.255 They do fast track it, but you, I, I think what it'll, it'll do is eventually, 00:19:15.525 --> 00:19:17.365 you know, will we need an app store? 00:19:18.005 --> 00:19:18.385 Right. 00:19:18.455 --> 00:19:21.935 You know, when you look at it from, I guess maybe either a dystopian 00:19:22.005 --> 00:19:26.185 point of view is like, will you need an app store if you can just go on 00:19:26.185 --> 00:19:30.255 your iPhone, which is now somehow powered by Apple intelligence? 00:19:30.255 --> 00:19:34.615 Cause the, the, the new colorful rainbow ring around my phone turns on instead 00:19:34.635 --> 00:19:36.215 of like the little Siri circle anymore. 00:19:36.625 --> 00:19:40.815 And will I just turn to my iPhone and say, give me an RSS app that follows 00:19:40.825 --> 00:19:42.995 just the WordPress news and it makes. 00:19:43.295 --> 00:19:46.255 Basically, what I made with Pulse and just installs it on my phone. 00:19:46.695 --> 00:19:49.325 And I pay Apple, like, nine bucks a month for Apple 00:19:49.325 --> 00:19:51.375 Intelligence to maintain that app. 00:19:51.975 --> 00:19:53.755 What does that do to the landscape? 00:19:54.075 --> 00:19:59.365 But then also, like, as a developer, What does it do for humanity, right? 00:19:59.815 --> 00:20:02.275 You know, like, do the developers go away and the AI? 00:20:02.545 --> 00:20:05.915 So, there's all of these thoughts that are going through my mind 00:20:05.925 --> 00:20:07.165 as I'm building this stuff. 00:20:07.675 --> 00:20:10.945 I think it'll get better, but I don't think it's replacing all of 00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:14.925 Nathan: I think it's interesting because I think there's always, I really don't know. 00:20:14.945 --> 00:20:20.075 I can't distill it, but I have an equal amount of trepidation as I do excitement. 00:20:20.525 --> 00:20:25.315 And so the rainbows are very, very close to the dark black clouds. 00:20:25.795 --> 00:20:30.145 and the bit of me, which worries is that the industry that we're in is full of 00:20:30.205 --> 00:20:35.175 very, very nice people who have spent an age getting good at, let's say, 00:20:35.185 --> 00:20:36.715 plug in development or what have you. 00:20:37.265 --> 00:20:40.405 And it does seem to me that at the rate that. 00:20:41.035 --> 00:20:45.325 The development of the AI is moving that a lot of that might 00:20:45.325 --> 00:20:47.135 be possible with a voice command. 00:20:47.395 --> 00:20:50.975 Like, obviously if you build something complex, like a complex, I don't know, 00:20:51.045 --> 00:20:54.355 an LMS or something, I'm sure that's probably out of reach at the moment. 00:20:54.355 --> 00:20:56.975 You'd have to have all the different parts, but if you've got a plugin, 00:20:56.995 --> 00:20:59.605 which is very successful in just doing one or two simple things, 00:20:59.795 --> 00:21:00.895 that concerns me a little bit. 00:21:00.905 --> 00:21:02.305 So that's a bit of a dark cloud. 00:21:02.575 --> 00:21:03.075 However. 00:21:03.685 --> 00:21:07.515 The, the sort of rainbow side of that is, well, we're here to democratize 00:21:07.575 --> 00:21:11.835 publishing and if anybody can speak into their phone and achieve the thing 00:21:12.245 --> 00:21:14.465 that they've asked, that's fabulous. 00:21:14.465 --> 00:21:17.115 And, and the boundaries just get pushed further of what's 00:21:17.115 --> 00:21:18.955 possible, which is great. 00:21:19.535 --> 00:21:22.845 Here's the other weird thing, which never really gets into my head when 00:21:22.845 --> 00:21:27.275 I'm thinking about it is, I don't know if it's sustainable, in terms 00:21:27.275 --> 00:21:30.935 of, I don't know if the economic model is keeping these LLMs going. 00:21:31.395 --> 00:21:33.065 is something that can be sustained. 00:21:33.065 --> 00:21:35.955 It seems like there are some dark clouds gathering there, where the amount of 00:21:35.955 --> 00:21:39.795 energy that's being used and the amount of dollars being spent just to is kind 00:21:39.795 --> 00:21:44.695 of being kept to get kept alive on a venture capital venture capital promise 00:21:44.735 --> 00:21:48.865 that something around the corner is going to flip the economic argument and all of 00:21:48.865 --> 00:21:52.455 a sudden we're going to start shelling out great amounts of cash for, for this. 00:21:53.285 --> 00:21:58.095 Matt: I wrote about this, on, my resume site, Crafted by Matt, and it is, One 00:21:58.095 --> 00:22:01.385 of the things I think that's going to hold this whole industry back are 00:22:01.385 --> 00:22:03.125 these industry leaders themselves. 00:22:03.195 --> 00:22:08.345 Because how many times have we seen and heard this story before, right? 00:22:08.415 --> 00:22:10.085 You must jump on this bandwagon. 00:22:10.095 --> 00:22:11.555 This is going to change everything. 00:22:11.565 --> 00:22:13.265 This is the technology of the future. 00:22:13.895 --> 00:22:16.485 And everything looked like AI every time that thing was 00:22:16.495 --> 00:22:17.525 happening, whatever that was. 00:22:17.565 --> 00:22:21.015 NFTs, cryptocurrency, like all these different things. 00:22:21.065 --> 00:22:23.095 The internet, books are going to go away. 00:22:23.785 --> 00:22:28.005 Self driving cars, you know, cell phone, like all of these technology points 00:22:28.015 --> 00:22:31.955 have always said that kind of thing and it's a little true but then it's like 00:22:31.965 --> 00:22:36.355 you scale back 60 percent of that and then you scale out the other 40 percent 00:22:36.365 --> 00:22:39.925 over two decades because that's how long it takes for people to catch up. 00:22:40.095 --> 00:22:42.395 Like people still don't have websites, right? 00:22:42.395 --> 00:22:46.015 Like we thought that was going to be done and all over with 20 years ago. 00:22:46.365 --> 00:22:50.245 so I think the biggest thing holding these, these That will hold us 00:22:50.255 --> 00:22:54.445 back, you know, I'll say it is like the corporate greed, right? 00:22:54.445 --> 00:22:55.975 We need to be the biggest, the best. 00:22:55.975 --> 00:23:00.745 We need all of it and we need trillions of dollars to do it, right? 00:23:00.945 --> 00:23:02.105 Oh, how much are you making? 00:23:02.565 --> 00:23:03.055 Zero. 00:23:03.105 --> 00:23:05.385 In fact, we're losing trillions of dollars while we're asking 00:23:05.385 --> 00:23:06.505 you for more trillions of 00:23:06.530 --> 00:23:09.360 Nathan: and we're pumping a load of carbon into the atmosphere and, you 00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:10.500 know, all of that kind of stuff. 00:23:10.660 --> 00:23:13.540 The interesting thing here though, let, let's, let's just use, because 00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:14.890 I said it, self driving cars. 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:19.370 The, what you get, if that technology comes to fruition, you 00:23:19.370 --> 00:23:22.470 get self driving cars, you get cars that can drive themselves. 00:23:22.490 --> 00:23:26.820 However, if the AI, if the AGI, the artificial general intelligence 00:23:26.820 --> 00:23:29.990 comes about, then you basically solve more or less everything. 00:23:30.625 --> 00:23:33.105 I mean, you invent a load of other problems, but there 00:23:33.105 --> 00:23:34.765 isn't just like one solution. 00:23:34.765 --> 00:23:38.085 It's like you just give a computer or a device or something. 00:23:38.415 --> 00:23:41.895 can you invent me a new game that nobody's ever played before that'd be really 00:23:41.895 --> 00:23:43.975 interesting for like under five year olds? 00:23:44.335 --> 00:23:45.175 yeah, sure. 00:23:45.405 --> 00:23:46.075 Try this one. 00:23:46.185 --> 00:23:47.265 Oh, yeah, that's really good. 00:23:47.605 --> 00:23:50.805 or do you fancy just getting rid of cancer for me? 00:23:51.445 --> 00:23:53.195 Yeah, all right, that's fine. 00:23:53.375 --> 00:23:57.285 You know, so the promise, the promise here that they, again, the rainbows 00:23:57.285 --> 00:24:02.385 and the unicorns and all that is so vast that I think this one maybe 00:24:02.385 --> 00:24:06.135 differs slightly and it wouldn't surprise me if the spending cycle 00:24:06.615 --> 00:24:10.955 keeps going for a little while longer, but I can't see it going on forever. 00:24:11.245 --> 00:24:14.025 That promise of AGI seems to be no closer today. 00:24:14.385 --> 00:24:19.425 Then it was two years ago, but the output of the LLMs is to my mind. 00:24:19.425 --> 00:24:24.705 Anyway, it makes you think that there's intelligence there, but it's not really. 00:24:27.730 --> 00:24:30.010 Matt: There is, I don't know if they're testing fire alarms 00:24:30.010 --> 00:24:30.640 in my building right now. 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:32.400 Nathan: Yeah, there was something, I can hear something, 00:24:32.410 --> 00:24:33.680 but it's okay, keep going, I 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:34.750 Matt: are going wrong. 00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:36.870 the, You're wearing a pair of glasses. 00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:41.520 I'm going to take you down one of my, crazy conspiracy theories, with AI. 00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:45.630 You're wearing a pair of glasses, and I wrote about this. 00:24:46.120 --> 00:24:50.560 I said, well, look, at some point, the hardware, the technology, the software 00:24:50.800 --> 00:24:55.870 is going to get so optimized that you'll have an LLM on your pair of glasses. 00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:59.110 You'll walk into a car dealership one day, if you're still buying 00:24:59.110 --> 00:25:03.140 cars, and the salesperson is going to look at you and go, The car is 00:25:03.140 --> 00:25:05.730 35, 000 and that's my best price. 00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:10.950 Your glasses will analyze that and prompt you in your lens to 00:25:10.950 --> 00:25:12.430 say, That's not the best price. 00:25:13.270 --> 00:25:15.260 And here's how you should reply, right? 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:22.630 And it, what it will move to is like this zero sum game for a world where, 00:25:22.970 --> 00:25:28.270 you know, lack of knowledge, lack of education, lack of information. 00:25:28.775 --> 00:25:35.405 Allowed people to capitalize off of swaths of, of humans, right? 00:25:35.565 --> 00:25:38.145 I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but what it is, is it's 00:25:38.145 --> 00:25:39.865 gonna empower people, I hope. 00:25:40.265 --> 00:25:44.475 To look at that sales deal, buying a house, looking at a legal 00:25:44.485 --> 00:25:49.225 contract, talking to your doctor, and feeding you instant information 00:25:49.455 --> 00:25:51.295 that betters your situation. 00:25:52.095 --> 00:25:56.325 So that, that competing negotiation or that lawyer who's like, sign the contract, 00:25:56.325 --> 00:25:59.335 it's the best thing for you, and you look at the contract and your glasses 00:25:59.335 --> 00:26:02.915 say, this is not the best thing for me, it looks like I get screwed in year two! 00:26:03.365 --> 00:26:04.565 Like, how does that happen? 00:26:04.815 --> 00:26:09.935 You know, and it's going to allow people, hopefully, to have that slight 00:26:09.935 --> 00:26:11.905 advantage that they didn't have before. 00:26:12.405 --> 00:26:17.265 And, you know, the dystopian side, is going to be, well, if you don't 00:26:17.265 --> 00:26:21.245 have the best and the fastest LLM in your glasses, you lose. 00:26:21.405 --> 00:26:24.665 And by the way, the best and the fastest LLM in your glasses, 00:26:25.025 --> 00:26:26.565 it costs 5, 000 a month. 00:26:27.025 --> 00:26:29.955 Nathan: I think the dystopian runs really parallel to the, like 00:26:30.165 --> 00:26:31.655 the, the rainbows and unicorns. 00:26:31.655 --> 00:26:35.415 I think the two things, it's so difficult for me to differentiate 00:26:35.415 --> 00:26:36.205 the two at the moment. 00:26:36.215 --> 00:26:39.195 A lot of the positive seems like the negative and vice versa. 00:26:39.535 --> 00:26:41.925 One thing that is interesting though is that I came to the same 00:26:41.925 --> 00:26:45.440 intuition, and I don't know if you meant glasses as a As that's where 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:46.820 you think the technology will land. 00:26:46.820 --> 00:26:49.250 But that is where I'm coming down now. 00:26:49.250 --> 00:26:52.970 I really do think we, it will be in glasses and I know we had that 00:26:52.970 --> 00:26:57.200 Google glass debacle a few years ago where the, like, the promise was so 00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:58.940 great and the delivery was so small. 00:26:59.120 --> 00:27:02.630 I think that was held back by the, the kind of technology available at the time. 00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:06.440 But it does seem like the, the thing on your head. 00:27:07.135 --> 00:27:10.255 That nobody really cares about, you know, it doesn't have to have forward facing 00:27:10.255 --> 00:27:13.585 cameras, but it's got a screen and you can push, push things onto that screen. 00:27:13.835 --> 00:27:18.405 I think augmented reality will become hot again once the glasses come, but I 00:27:18.415 --> 00:27:23.015 think the AI mixing in with the glasses is the perfect, the perfect vehicle. 00:27:23.045 --> 00:27:27.175 You know, imagine, imagine the things that you could do, if the, if instead 00:27:27.175 --> 00:27:30.585 of the computer and the screen, if it was just the pair of glasses that 00:27:30.585 --> 00:27:32.645 you take on and, and put off again. 00:27:32.675 --> 00:27:34.275 I think that is the, that 00:27:34.390 --> 00:27:36.610 Matt: Yeah, we're, and we're not that far away, right? 00:27:36.610 --> 00:27:38.140 We all have phones in our pockets, right? 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:39.210 So we can achieve that. 00:27:39.310 --> 00:27:41.070 let's not scare off the listener too much. 00:27:41.070 --> 00:27:42.780 Let's talk about the tools, right? 00:27:42.780 --> 00:27:44.390 How did I achieve some of this stuff? 00:27:44.390 --> 00:27:48.050 And let's talk about maybe some of the points where, where, you 00:27:48.050 --> 00:27:49.130 were having some challenges. 00:27:49.390 --> 00:27:50.910 What did your workflow look like? 00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:54.050 You were testing it out in ChatGPT and just like copy and pasting 00:27:54.050 --> 00:27:55.840 into like a snippet plugin tool 00:27:55.915 --> 00:27:58.655 Nathan: I mean, basically something like that or into a sort of functions. 00:27:58.665 --> 00:27:59.705 php file. 00:27:59.735 --> 00:28:03.095 And like I said, I was trying to do something really simple, but my 00:28:03.115 --> 00:28:06.715 goal was just to see if I could get things done in under like two minutes. 00:28:06.715 --> 00:28:09.145 In other words, how would a, how would an inexperienced 00:28:09.165 --> 00:28:10.935 WordPress user manage with this? 00:28:11.145 --> 00:28:12.545 And the reason I said it's in. 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.640 The whole thing collapsed is because for an inexperienced 00:28:15.910 --> 00:28:17.440 WordPress user, it was an endgame. 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.390 It was like, this should work, but no, it's destroyed my site. 00:28:20.390 --> 00:28:21.440 And that's what it did. 00:28:21.770 --> 00:28:24.180 It took the site to the white screen of death kind of thing. 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:25.740 And I got the email notification. 00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:27.710 So I thought, okay, that's interesting. 00:28:27.710 --> 00:28:28.550 If I was a novice. 00:28:28.675 --> 00:28:32.285 Coming into the WordPress space, it would, it would ruin my expectations 00:28:32.285 --> 00:28:34.425 of what WordPress could do. 00:28:34.855 --> 00:28:39.345 But, but let's flip that round again and ask you why, why this particular topic? 00:28:39.345 --> 00:28:40.635 Why PulseWP? 00:28:40.665 --> 00:28:41.695 I'll just give the URL again. 00:28:41.895 --> 00:28:42.775 PulseWP. 00:28:42.815 --> 00:28:44.015 cc. 00:28:44.915 --> 00:28:47.795 I mean, you, you said you were sort of scratching your own itch, but tell us why 00:28:47.915 --> 00:28:52.725 Matt: Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I, yeah, I wanted a way to feed, yeah, that news 00:28:52.725 --> 00:28:56.425 and information for WordPress, to the way that I need to consume it, which is 00:28:56.765 --> 00:29:01.635 You know, cut, like, watch everything, summarize it, so that I can quickly scan 00:29:01.635 --> 00:29:05.495 it, and then go into the full article or, you know, whatever it might be that, 00:29:05.545 --> 00:29:09.495 that I'm watching for, and then quickly generate social media because I, social 00:29:09.495 --> 00:29:14.345 media, posts because I also share other people's content, so I wanted a tool that 00:29:14.365 --> 00:29:17.150 quickly allowed me to Watch all the stuff. 00:29:17.770 --> 00:29:20.130 Summarize it so I can quickly jump into the bullet points 00:29:20.130 --> 00:29:21.220 that I need to know about. 00:29:21.560 --> 00:29:25.010 And then, help me share it on social media, because it's important to me. 00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:28.090 like you, I started, I had pneumonia. 00:29:28.270 --> 00:29:29.970 So, maybe not like you, but I had pneumonia. 00:29:30.580 --> 00:29:33.140 A few months after you and I met in Portland. 00:29:33.490 --> 00:29:35.850 And I was just laying on the couch, couldn't really do anything. 00:29:35.850 --> 00:29:37.830 And I was like, let me get into this AI coding thing. 00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:41.570 And I started to hit the limits of, Claude. 00:29:41.670 --> 00:29:43.150 At the time, that's what I was using. 00:29:43.360 --> 00:29:45.720 And it would just tell me like, Hey, you're trying to build this 00:29:45.860 --> 00:29:47.180 piece of software or whatever. 00:29:47.420 --> 00:29:48.550 Come back tomorrow. 00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:49.780 literally it would say, come 00:29:49.985 --> 00:29:50.155 Nathan: Oh, 00:29:50.820 --> 00:29:53.870 Matt: tomorrow because you've ran, you've run out of tokens. 00:29:53.870 --> 00:29:57.900 And I'm like, like, and I go back to like that gamification, that gambling thing. 00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.250 Like, wait a minute, I'm like halfway through this idea. 00:30:00.250 --> 00:30:01.590 I need to continue to build it. 00:30:02.070 --> 00:30:05.330 And that's what, and then I started, what I started doing is. 00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:11.140 I would have half the idea with ChatGPT and use the credits over there, and 00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:15.720 then bring, and I would say, Hey, take this little idea of this little feature, 00:30:15.800 --> 00:30:21.430 write the code for it, but then give me a prompt that explains how to build that 00:30:21.430 --> 00:30:24.550 code, because I wanted Claude to build it, so then I would, I would do a lot 00:30:24.550 --> 00:30:29.110 of ideation on ChatGPT to save credits, and then make it write me a prompt. 00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:32.270 And then I would paste that into, into Claude and that helped 00:30:32.370 --> 00:30:34.130 optimize the stack a little bit. 00:30:34.130 --> 00:30:34.380 Right. 00:30:35.100 --> 00:30:39.440 And eventually, and we can get into this, eventually I started 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:43.150 to uncover the cursor, app, bolt. 00:30:43.570 --> 00:30:46.150 new, which is a fantastic, AI app. 00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:48.250 And then what I eventually built. 00:30:49.370 --> 00:30:51.620 PulseWPON is an app called Repl. 00:30:51.620 --> 00:30:56.100 it, which I like to say is like the Elementor of AI coding. 00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.030 Like, think about everything encompassed that you need. 00:31:00.340 --> 00:31:03.960 Because Pulse is, well, it's JavaScript. 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:05.950 It's, you know, the React app framework. 00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:07.100 It's a database. 00:31:07.300 --> 00:31:09.330 It's a user authentication system. 00:31:09.620 --> 00:31:11.740 it is the hosting provider. 00:31:12.060 --> 00:31:13.090 it does a lot. 00:31:13.300 --> 00:31:16.830 And once you start getting into this space, you realize, Oh, it's 00:31:16.830 --> 00:31:20.450 not just the website that you need or that front end component. 00:31:20.750 --> 00:31:23.490 You need the database, you need user authentication. 00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.380 User authentication is huge. 00:31:25.860 --> 00:31:31.000 and I should say that all of this built me a better, a better 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:33.410 recognition for WordPress, right? 00:31:33.410 --> 00:31:36.890 Like, I look at WordPress now and you might go, Oh, that thing's like 20 00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:38.680 years old, it's old and monolithic. 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:40.570 Yeah, but it's done. 00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:42.000 Right? 00:31:42.260 --> 00:31:43.060 It's done. 00:31:43.380 --> 00:31:48.670 I can pick this up and put it on a website and thousands of humans care for it. 00:31:49.080 --> 00:31:50.080 Versus me. 00:31:50.250 --> 00:31:54.350 On my couch and chat GPT and it's just me and him building this thing 00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:56.360 and nobody else is caring for it. 00:31:56.360 --> 00:31:57.880 Nobody else is giving me ideas. 00:31:58.230 --> 00:32:03.000 It's a stark difference from building code by yourself without any knowledge 00:32:03.030 --> 00:32:06.970 versus you look at WordPress now and you go, wow, 20 years and thousands 00:32:06.970 --> 00:32:08.100 of people have touched this. 00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:09.270 And this is why it's 00:32:09.460 --> 00:32:10.300 Nathan: can I ask you a question? 00:32:10.300 --> 00:32:11.940 So you mentioned a variety of tools there. 00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:15.610 So you chatGPT, Claude, you mentioned, Repl. 00:32:15.610 --> 00:32:16.910 it and you mentioned Bolt. 00:32:17.270 --> 00:32:19.490 What, what, so I think it's fair to 00:32:19.590 --> 00:32:20.780 Matt: How did I make that path? 00:32:20.990 --> 00:32:22.200 Nathan: And also what is the path? 00:32:22.220 --> 00:32:23.820 What, why go to Bolt? 00:32:23.820 --> 00:32:25.860 What does Bolt do that's different from Repl. 00:32:25.860 --> 00:32:26.630 it and what does Repl. 00:32:26.630 --> 00:32:28.640 it do that's different from chatGPT? 00:32:29.130 --> 00:32:30.580 So yeah, talk us through the journey. 00:32:31.290 --> 00:32:34.380 Matt: Yeah, I'm gonna, put a video together on this as well, comparing 00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:38.740 the, the two, platforms, but here's my, my take on it, right? 00:32:38.780 --> 00:32:43.250 I think you can, if you're somebody who's a developer and you're very, 00:32:43.300 --> 00:32:46.350 and you're, you even consider yourself, I'm halfway there. 00:32:46.410 --> 00:32:48.220 I think I'm a decent developer. 00:32:48.310 --> 00:32:51.110 Even if you consider yourself, I'm not the best, but I'm just a beginner. 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:55.800 I think a great way to leverage AI now is to use something like cursor. 00:32:56.170 --> 00:32:58.450 Like if code looking at code doesn't scare you. 00:32:58.905 --> 00:33:04.885 I would say use Cursor, because it's, it's a coding app, it's a fork of VS 00:33:04.915 --> 00:33:07.605 Code, which is a, an app to help you code. 00:33:08.415 --> 00:33:12.805 and it has all the things you need to accelerate your coding abilities. 00:33:12.925 --> 00:33:16.050 If you're somebody like me There's these two other apps, 00:33:16.050 --> 00:33:16.880 and I'm sure there's others. 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:18.920 These are just the two that I've explored. 00:33:19.710 --> 00:33:21.580 Bolt and Repl. 00:33:21.580 --> 00:33:21.690 it. 00:33:22.040 --> 00:33:23.220 And you go to bolt. 00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:25.850 new is the website for the AI stuff. 00:33:26.270 --> 00:33:30.880 And I really haven't even had the time to explore these guys too deep. 00:33:31.860 --> 00:33:33.080 Guys and gals, I should say. 00:33:33.570 --> 00:33:36.020 But they actually have an open source component of Bolt, 00:33:36.210 --> 00:33:37.620 which you can run locally. 00:33:37.850 --> 00:33:41.900 I haven't even touched that yet, but that's just like In my mind, like, 00:33:41.900 --> 00:33:44.880 this is kind of why I like these, this team, because they have that, 00:33:45.130 --> 00:33:46.540 and I do want to explore it more. 00:33:46.870 --> 00:33:47.320 But bold. 00:33:47.460 --> 00:33:50.940 new, you just go to the, you go to the site, you throw it the idea, 00:33:51.310 --> 00:33:53.180 and it builds it beautifully. 00:33:53.305 --> 00:33:54.855 Nathan: okay, so wait, wait, hang on, wait, wait, wait. 00:33:54.855 --> 00:33:57.625 You say you throw out the idea, like, how complex do you think 00:33:57.635 --> 00:33:59.045 you could actually make that idea? 00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:03.350 Matt: And this is where the things kind of fall, fall down a little bit. 00:34:03.360 --> 00:34:10.875 So when I started, once I got off of, using vanilla, Claude to build my idea, 00:34:11.305 --> 00:34:17.545 I went to cursor because I heard that was a thing and what cursor gave me was vs 00:34:17.585 --> 00:34:19.615 code, which I've never touched in my life. 00:34:19.765 --> 00:34:20.535 No idea. 00:34:20.755 --> 00:34:24.105 I mean, the last time I use a code editor was notepad plus plus when 00:34:24.105 --> 00:34:27.065 I was running my wordpress agency, you know, going back to 2006. 00:34:27.065 --> 00:34:32.915 That was the last time I've looked at code like this and it was very powerful, 00:34:33.335 --> 00:34:36.335 but it wasn't guiding me at all like it. 00:34:36.825 --> 00:34:38.485 You have to be a developer to use it. 00:34:38.485 --> 00:34:41.505 And if I was a developer, Cursor looks amazing. 00:34:41.765 --> 00:34:44.305 Because you already know the code and it's just going to accelerate that. 00:34:44.815 --> 00:34:47.255 And I was Fumbling around with it. 00:34:47.255 --> 00:34:50.625 I was, you know, I was at the time, when I first started, I was 00:34:50.625 --> 00:34:52.605 like, give myself a new challenge. 00:34:52.625 --> 00:34:56.495 Learn the CloudFlare infrastructure hosting, right? 00:34:56.505 --> 00:35:00.235 Like I heard CloudFlare is better than AWS for some of this stuff. 00:35:00.825 --> 00:35:04.975 I used to sell managed WordPress sites for Pagely and we used AWS so I didn't 00:35:04.975 --> 00:35:08.105 know my way around AWS, but I was like, let me try this CloudFlare thing. 00:35:08.595 --> 00:35:11.535 So I was trying to like pipe all these things together, run CloudFlare. 00:35:11.705 --> 00:35:15.275 Pages, Cloudflare functions, Cloudflare databases, and I'm trying 00:35:15.275 --> 00:35:16.525 to tie all this stuff in together. 00:35:16.635 --> 00:35:17.275 Impossible. 00:35:17.975 --> 00:35:18.285 Nathan: Ha ha 00:35:18.405 --> 00:35:24.055 Matt: And then I found Bolt by just hunting around on YouTube 00:35:24.115 --> 00:35:25.575 and Reddit and stuff like that. 00:35:25.985 --> 00:35:33.785 And Bolt will do really good at straightforward requests. 00:35:34.245 --> 00:35:39.245 Like you can ask it to make a user login system, but at the time when 00:35:39.245 --> 00:35:41.365 I started this, it would create it. 00:35:42.025 --> 00:35:44.145 But it would be just like a form, right? 00:35:44.305 --> 00:35:47.475 There was no security logic behind it. 00:35:48.255 --> 00:35:49.865 It would show you a login page. 00:35:49.945 --> 00:35:51.965 You could log in, but you could. 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:55.380 There was no like WordPress authentication, like it wasn't 00:35:55.380 --> 00:35:58.750 checking your password, was that strong enough, is there a reset, you 00:35:58.750 --> 00:36:01.850 know, I need to change my password, didn't have any of that function. 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:07.150 what it did integrate with at the time was a hosting company, called Netlify. 00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:09.790 Those of you, those of you listening probably know about that. 00:36:10.110 --> 00:36:14.020 So what you could do, is ask Bolt, build my app. 00:36:14.945 --> 00:36:18.435 And then you could click deploy and send it to Netlify, and it would 00:36:18.535 --> 00:36:21.075 host the static pages that you built. 00:36:21.695 --> 00:36:24.025 And it worked, but there was no database. 00:36:24.525 --> 00:36:27.455 Which then led me down the path of, I need to figure out 00:36:27.475 --> 00:36:29.165 how to connect up a database. 00:36:29.635 --> 00:36:33.565 And I found another platform called Supabase, S 00:36:33.815 --> 00:36:34.845 Nathan: Oh, that rings a bell. 00:36:34.845 --> 00:36:35.225 Yeah. 00:36:35.535 --> 00:36:35.835 Matt: yeah. 00:36:36.445 --> 00:36:42.135 And it is a hosted database platform, And it does a ton of things besides just 00:36:42.135 --> 00:36:46.345 databases, does file storage, but it also does user authentication, because 00:36:46.345 --> 00:36:49.075 that's a huge thing, user authentication. 00:36:49.225 --> 00:36:52.815 Another thing we take advantage of, or take advantage for in WordPress 00:36:53.025 --> 00:36:55.925 is the whole, like, stack of user authentication is already there. 00:36:56.265 --> 00:36:57.745 So Supabase allows you to do that. 00:36:57.805 --> 00:37:01.675 So I started stringing things together, and I'm debugging, like, 00:37:02.120 --> 00:37:09.510 build scripts and deployments, with Bolt and Netlify and now Superbase. 00:37:09.890 --> 00:37:14.290 And then I had to learn to tie in GitHub to all of this stuff so 00:37:14.290 --> 00:37:15.550 that I could version control it. 00:37:15.550 --> 00:37:19.190 It was very, very difficult to like keep it all going. 00:37:19.990 --> 00:37:23.230 And eventually you hit this limit of Bolt. 00:37:23.875 --> 00:37:25.975 Where it's just like, it's not working. 00:37:26.365 --> 00:37:31.775 And here's a pro tip, for any of these AI platforms, If it can't get it, in 00:37:31.795 --> 00:37:34.525 three or four tries, It's not gonna get 00:37:34.625 --> 00:37:35.305 Nathan: just give up. 00:37:35.955 --> 00:37:37.975 Matt: Just give up, on like that feature set. 00:37:38.295 --> 00:37:43.925 So what that led me to do was, I would, I would build, I would ask all these 00:37:43.925 --> 00:37:46.895 complex things, Do this, do this, do this, do this, all in one big prompt. 00:37:47.290 --> 00:37:49.240 Build it for me, make it do this, and then move this button over 00:37:49.240 --> 00:37:50.970 there, and it would just crumble. 00:37:51.235 --> 00:37:51.545 Nathan: Right. 00:37:51.565 --> 00:37:51.935 Right. 00:37:52.080 --> 00:37:57.010 Matt: So, I had to learn, and then I would delete the whole app, and start again. 00:37:57.390 --> 00:37:59.820 So then I would learn to take it slower. 00:38:00.240 --> 00:38:04.530 Here's the goal at the start, build it out, and then I knew the features in my 00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:06.660 head, but I wasn't telling Bolt to do it. 00:38:07.315 --> 00:38:08.775 And I would do it step by step. 00:38:08.925 --> 00:38:09.975 Now build this feature. 00:38:10.205 --> 00:38:11.275 Let's test that feature. 00:38:11.555 --> 00:38:12.615 Okay, great, that worked. 00:38:12.735 --> 00:38:13.845 Let's build this feature. 00:38:13.905 --> 00:38:14.665 Let's test it. 00:38:14.885 --> 00:38:15.595 Okay, do the work. 00:38:15.905 --> 00:38:17.605 All of the things you normally do. 00:38:18.335 --> 00:38:19.795 In like real development. 00:38:20.145 --> 00:38:23.545 because a real developer isn't taking all those ideas and slamming it all out 00:38:23.565 --> 00:38:25.725 into his or her code editor right there. 00:38:25.955 --> 00:38:27.555 It's all done methodically. 00:38:27.915 --> 00:38:28.775 So I had to do that. 00:38:29.425 --> 00:38:30.615 And I'll fast track it here. 00:38:30.955 --> 00:38:33.595 Bolt now has a super base integration, 00:38:33.615 --> 00:38:34.665 Nathan: Oh, neat. 00:38:34.705 --> 00:38:35.125 Okay. 00:38:35.460 --> 00:38:37.600 Matt: So now it'll create the database for you. 00:38:37.600 --> 00:38:39.060 You can host it on Netlify. 00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:41.930 You'll still have to connect it up to GitHub, to do like 00:38:41.930 --> 00:38:43.140 deployments and stuff like that. 00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:44.660 but it works. 00:38:45.020 --> 00:38:46.750 And then I found Repl. 00:38:46.750 --> 00:38:47.000 it. 00:38:47.520 --> 00:38:50.000 And you can think, like I said before, you can think of Repl. 00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:51.070 it as like Elementor. 00:38:51.120 --> 00:38:52.230 It's all in one. 00:38:52.600 --> 00:38:57.020 So it has all the database, the hosting, the user authentication. 00:38:57.370 --> 00:38:58.410 It's all built in. 00:38:59.180 --> 00:39:05.010 And you're not having to hunt around and go, okay, now I need to set up Netlify to 00:39:05.010 --> 00:39:07.020 look over here at GitHub and Superbase. 00:39:07.060 --> 00:39:08.110 It has to know about Superbase. 00:39:08.150 --> 00:39:11.360 It just has all of its database and hosting all built into 00:39:11.505 --> 00:39:16.605 Nathan: So is, is replet, replet, is that your current Nirvana thing 00:39:16.645 --> 00:39:18.015 that that's where you're at at the 00:39:18.260 --> 00:39:19.330 Matt: That's what PulseWP. 00:39:20.145 --> 00:39:23.885 That's what PulseWP is built on, but what I've found is what I will 00:39:23.885 --> 00:39:26.825 do, cause you're still faced with the same, no matter what, if you're, 00:39:26.895 --> 00:39:30.585 if you're running VanillaChatGPT, your own account, if you're running 00:39:30.595 --> 00:39:32.185 Bolt, or you're running Repl. 00:39:32.185 --> 00:39:37.615 it, you're still faced with the same, issue, which is, conversations get really 00:39:37.615 --> 00:39:42.805 complex, like, as you extend it and keep working it, and it just starts to fail 00:39:42.805 --> 00:39:47.095 and give you a bunch of slop, or, it gets costly, and you run out of tokens. 00:39:47.465 --> 00:39:47.725 Right? 00:39:47.735 --> 00:39:50.185 So you, you start to, Replate has a different billing system, 00:39:50.185 --> 00:39:51.155 but we can talk about that later. 00:39:51.155 --> 00:39:53.365 But, you, it still costs you money. 00:39:53.505 --> 00:39:54.895 And you still run out of that. 00:39:55.595 --> 00:39:59.905 So if you're not, If you're, you're not, strategic about how you're building your 00:39:59.905 --> 00:40:01.785 app, then it can start to cost you money. 00:40:01.945 --> 00:40:03.905 And, or run out of credits altogether. 00:40:04.465 --> 00:40:09.145 but my favorite way of doing this is ideate in a vanilla, chat 00:40:09.145 --> 00:40:13.895 GPT, then I bring it to Bolt, and I say Hey, build me this idea. 00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:17.580 And I just let it, what Bolt is really good at is that MVP. 00:40:17.790 --> 00:40:18.730 Like, what does it look like? 00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:19.970 Do I like the buttons over here? 00:40:19.970 --> 00:40:21.440 Do I like this feature function? 00:40:22.100 --> 00:40:28.510 And then if I'm real serious about it, I will ask Bolt to, once I get it to a kind 00:40:28.510 --> 00:40:31.950 of working level, I'll say, Hey Bolt, everything, you know, about this app. 00:40:32.540 --> 00:40:37.150 Can you make me a, prompt that I'm going to place into another AI system? 00:40:37.180 --> 00:40:38.330 Feels a little bit like cheating. 00:40:39.430 --> 00:40:42.940 but, but it's like, hey, you did a really good job over here, but you know what? 00:40:42.940 --> 00:40:44.950 I'm not going to stick with you, but tell me everything you can do. 00:40:45.150 --> 00:40:46.510 And I'm going to bring it over into Repl. 00:40:46.910 --> 00:40:48.380 it and then I'll start to build in a 00:40:48.625 --> 00:40:52.205 Nathan: It's kind of like when you go into a store and look at an item and then 00:40:52.245 --> 00:40:54.965 in the store, buy it from Amazon on your 00:40:55.200 --> 00:40:55.730 Matt: Correct. 00:40:55.750 --> 00:40:56.770 That's a hundred percent. 00:40:56.780 --> 00:40:57.720 That's a hundred percent. 00:40:58.340 --> 00:41:01.670 but for whatever reason, and this is stuff that I still need to explore. 00:41:02.870 --> 00:41:09.720 Bolt does a fantastic job with UI and the design and Repl. 00:41:09.720 --> 00:41:11.955 it is just Terrible. 00:41:12.915 --> 00:41:16.445 Like, like Pulse is not a very good looking website to look at. 00:41:16.645 --> 00:41:17.615 It does the job. 00:41:17.615 --> 00:41:21.725 It's very stark black and white, you know, and even when I say add 00:41:21.725 --> 00:41:23.705 more color or do more like Repl. 00:41:23.705 --> 00:41:27.935 It doesn't, it doesn't do any of that creative stuff, but Bolt does 00:41:27.935 --> 00:41:29.865 a really, really good job of it. 00:41:30.175 --> 00:41:32.855 And their apps look a way, look way better. 00:41:32.865 --> 00:41:36.425 And for whatever reason, maybe their LLMs are just trained better. 00:41:36.745 --> 00:41:38.625 Like when you say improve design. 00:41:39.655 --> 00:41:42.645 Bolt does a really good job of improving design, whereas Repl. 00:41:42.645 --> 00:41:44.065 it just looks at you. 00:41:44.065 --> 00:41:48.945 Yeah, it's 00:41:49.195 --> 00:41:52.655 Nathan: in the LLM, if you're using the same language, but it, you know, your ex, 00:41:52.745 --> 00:41:57.765 well, or, or your expectations are sort of differently met, you know, you prefer 00:41:57.765 --> 00:41:59.905 the way that looks, but, but, but, okay. 00:41:59.915 --> 00:42:03.585 So given all of this in this journey and the fact that the 00:42:03.955 --> 00:42:06.595 three years ago, if I suggested. 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:08.470 No, maybe three years. 00:42:08.520 --> 00:42:10.180 Yeah, three, let's go three years. 00:42:10.460 --> 00:42:15.200 If I said any of this to you, your, your three years ago, self would 00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:18.100 say my, my future self is lying. 00:42:18.390 --> 00:42:19.830 This cannot be done. 00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:21.670 That will never be possible. 00:42:22.020 --> 00:42:24.590 And yet here we are, you, you've achieved something. 00:42:24.590 --> 00:42:27.960 You've built a, you've built an app that there's no way 00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:29.070 that you could have pulled off. 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:32.530 And so the technology has gone from that's a lie that cannot 00:42:32.540 --> 00:42:35.120 be done to I've now done it. 00:42:35.550 --> 00:42:36.610 So that's three years. 00:42:36.915 --> 00:42:42.065 If we, like three years from now, surely that's going to be a bit exponential. 00:42:42.085 --> 00:42:45.235 Let's assume that the, the venture capitalists don't run out of money 00:42:45.235 --> 00:42:49.295 and they're still very excited and all of that, then surely this is 00:42:49.295 --> 00:42:50.645 just going to get easier and easier. 00:42:50.675 --> 00:42:52.625 Your expectations will go up. 00:42:52.665 --> 00:42:55.575 Your demands of the prompts will go up. 00:42:55.625 --> 00:42:57.675 You, the output will get better and better. 00:42:58.475 --> 00:43:00.265 God, it's, it sounds like utopia. 00:43:01.600 --> 00:43:02.770 Coding utopia. 00:43:03.230 --> 00:43:05.040 Matt: Three years ago, if you would have said that to me, I would have 00:43:05.070 --> 00:43:07.460 called the cops on you a year ago. 00:43:07.730 --> 00:43:09.050 I would have said, I don't think this. 00:43:09.100 --> 00:43:10.720 Yeah, not me. 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.780 But now it's just like, okay, kind of me. 00:43:14.080 --> 00:43:17.210 And this is, you know, for all of the naysayers out there. 00:43:17.520 --> 00:43:22.110 Like, I think the reality is that the missing links right now are 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.770 speed because this stuff takes time. 00:43:25.170 --> 00:43:29.460 Like, it's not just time of like testing, but if you're somebody like me asking it 00:43:29.470 --> 00:43:36.160 to build robust apps, You literally have to wait for the code to finish, right? 00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:37.420 Like this is a waiting game. 00:43:37.640 --> 00:43:39.100 So I'm totally dead serious. 00:43:39.100 --> 00:43:41.800 Like when you start getting into something that's, you know, a little 00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:46.700 bit more robust, I'll, I'll send the prompt and then switch to tabs and 00:43:46.700 --> 00:43:49.010 like go back to work and let it finish. 00:43:49.340 --> 00:43:52.510 And then if you have to, if it, if you go back to that tab and it's still 00:43:52.510 --> 00:43:54.645 not working, You gotta run it again. 00:43:56.255 --> 00:43:58.345 You know, so it's like, okay, let me go back to work. 00:43:58.575 --> 00:43:59.755 You know, did you finish over here? 00:44:00.605 --> 00:44:02.785 You know, but if you're somebody who's a developer, you 00:44:02.795 --> 00:44:03.855 know what you have to solve. 00:44:03.895 --> 00:44:04.345 I don't. 00:44:04.405 --> 00:44:06.635 So I just have to constantly keep prompting this thing. 00:44:06.925 --> 00:44:10.105 But yeah, three years from now what'll happen, and I think we're starting 00:44:10.105 --> 00:44:12.595 to see it now, are these agents. 00:44:13.715 --> 00:44:17.365 Which are, for lack of a better word, these little robots that are 00:44:17.365 --> 00:44:21.235 supposed to be actively or passively working on this stuff for you. 00:44:21.655 --> 00:44:26.295 And that's the next sort of shoe to drop where I can build the app and then tell 00:44:26.295 --> 00:44:31.555 the agent, Hey, every day, just make sure I don't have any security flaws in pulse. 00:44:32.135 --> 00:44:36.645 Or if there's an update to react, or JavaScript, make sure you update 00:44:36.645 --> 00:44:38.635 it to the latest packages for me. 00:44:38.985 --> 00:44:39.755 And you know what? 00:44:39.795 --> 00:44:41.435 Every day, think of a new idea. 00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:44.690 And send it to me, message me, and see if I like that idea. 00:44:44.690 --> 00:44:46.750 And if I like it, we'll add it to Pulse. 00:44:47.410 --> 00:44:47.790 Repl. 00:44:47.790 --> 00:44:48.940 it kind of does that. 00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:50.400 As you move along with Repl. 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:55.340 it, it'll prompt you and say, Hey, did, do you like, okay, did that work? 00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:57.030 The thing that you just asked me to do, does it work? 00:44:57.050 --> 00:45:00.630 If so, I've got these three ideas that I think we can do next. 00:45:01.540 --> 00:45:03.270 And you're just looking at it going, oh my god. 00:45:04.130 --> 00:45:05.500 Like this thing is thinking ahead. 00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:06.170 you know, 00:45:06.220 --> 00:45:06.490 Nathan: yeah. 00:45:06.490 --> 00:45:11.270 The, the, the, the exchange of finances, it's, it's, it's cogs are ticking there. 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.700 It's thinking, how can I get you to spend more tokens tomorrow? 00:45:14.750 --> 00:45:15.310 Matt: Correct. 00:45:15.430 --> 00:45:17.890 Nathan: but, but it's interesting because I foresee a future then. 00:45:17.900 --> 00:45:22.120 But, and I didn't know this until we had this conversation, but it feels to me. 00:45:22.470 --> 00:45:26.420 That we're going to have a future in which certain AIs are going to meet 00:45:26.430 --> 00:45:28.630 the needs of a certain niche of people. 00:45:28.810 --> 00:45:32.720 So in the example that you gave, come to, I think you said, Bolt, 00:45:33.080 --> 00:45:34.430 if you want it to look nice. 00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:36.960 So we're the, we're the nice looking AI, you know, we'll, we'll give 00:45:37.120 --> 00:45:38.490 you a UI that looks beautiful. 00:45:38.680 --> 00:45:39.630 Oh, there might be a WordPress. 00:45:40.350 --> 00:45:44.220 version or a Drupal version or a whatever, you know, we're really 00:45:44.220 --> 00:45:46.300 good at putting web pages together. 00:45:46.300 --> 00:45:47.260 Or we're really good. 00:45:47.260 --> 00:45:50.340 If you're, if you're into travel, we've got the database of all the travel 00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:52.070 agents and flights and blah, blah, blah. 00:45:52.100 --> 00:45:52.520 All of that. 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:54.110 Maybe that's the way it's going to go. 00:45:54.110 --> 00:45:57.190 and you'll go to a different AI for a different thing. 00:45:57.230 --> 00:46:01.175 And then, you know, the And then the sun will never stop shining. 00:46:01.625 --> 00:46:05.165 And we'll all be incredibly happy forever and ever after. 00:46:05.685 --> 00:46:08.835 And, and of course we'll never ever, none of us will ever need to work again. 00:46:09.330 --> 00:46:09.740 Matt: Yeah. 00:46:10.850 --> 00:46:14.940 So, so how do you think this all competes or how does WordPress 00:46:14.950 --> 00:46:16.970 compete with this in your eyes? 00:46:16.970 --> 00:46:21.860 Like I look at it as we're going to, we could see 10, 15 percent 00:46:21.870 --> 00:46:23.170 of that market share drop. 00:46:23.655 --> 00:46:25.075 Where people go, you know, I'm just gonna build it. 00:46:25.135 --> 00:46:27.285 I'm just gonna build it over here and repl it, forget WordPress. 00:46:27.575 --> 00:46:30.115 How do you see WordPress sustaining through 00:46:30.290 --> 00:46:33.860 Nathan: I think my gut reaction at the moment is that it's going to be 00:46:33.860 --> 00:46:35.580 a really tough time for developers. 00:46:36.190 --> 00:46:39.270 I think people are going to experiment more and more with AI. 00:46:39.270 --> 00:46:43.140 And given that the WordPress code base is completely visible 00:46:43.140 --> 00:46:45.880 to all AI, it can consume it. 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.850 So I'm imagining a scenario where a lot of simple tasks that might 00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:52.635 have been sent to your developer. 00:46:53.605 --> 00:46:56.895 You know, now you'll just ask you a 16 year old son, have you 00:46:57.175 --> 00:46:58.455 got, you know, this AI stuff? 00:46:58.485 --> 00:47:00.315 I've got a website and I've got this problem with it. 00:47:00.315 --> 00:47:01.995 Can you just have a look at this for me? 00:47:02.025 --> 00:47:05.085 Just try it out on your AI, because you know, you're doing computers 00:47:05.085 --> 00:47:06.675 at school, that kind of thing. 00:47:06.805 --> 00:47:09.265 I think it's going to potentially eat in. 00:47:09.485 --> 00:47:14.535 To that market, but equally, maybe the expectations will go higher. 00:47:14.535 --> 00:47:16.925 So we'll all expect more from our WordPress website because 00:47:16.925 --> 00:47:18.645 the AI agents are helping us. 00:47:19.015 --> 00:47:21.425 So it's, it's a time of change for sure. 00:47:22.130 --> 00:47:26.480 And I think it probably is a time to, to reevaluate what you're doing. 00:47:26.710 --> 00:47:31.680 I was speaking to somebody yesterday, very intelligent person who basically 00:47:31.680 --> 00:47:34.550 was saying, and they're in the WordPress space, so it's really, you 00:47:34.550 --> 00:47:38.880 know, on message, they were saying that really it's time to get into AI. 00:47:39.060 --> 00:47:42.870 If you don't start using it now, there will be people a year from now who 00:47:42.870 --> 00:47:47.430 are so good at it that they've kind of made themselves like that top tier 00:47:48.010 --> 00:47:51.380 and they will be the elite developers. 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:54.710 and even though they might not have a development background, if they 00:47:54.710 --> 00:47:57.950 do have a development background, they'll be, you know, elite plus. 00:47:58.610 --> 00:48:01.720 so I think, I think it is definitely a, a time of change. 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:02.390 yeah. 00:48:03.035 --> 00:48:06.385 Matt: really cool thing, It's not really an aside, but it's sort of an aside. 00:48:06.385 --> 00:48:09.515 Like when you're thinking use case, and even thinking outside of our little 00:48:09.545 --> 00:48:14.355 tech bubble, my, so another great thing about Bolt is it is pretty quick, and 00:48:14.355 --> 00:48:15.805 like I said, the UI is really nice. 00:48:15.865 --> 00:48:20.725 And what I found it to be really fun, with kids, is doing homework, right? 00:48:20.775 --> 00:48:21.755 With my kids, right? 00:48:21.755 --> 00:48:25.435 So my, first grade son, my middle son, you know, they come home, they have 00:48:25.435 --> 00:48:29.165 their homework, there's whatever 12 words that they're working on, you know, for 00:48:29.165 --> 00:48:31.155 the week or whatever the homework is. 00:48:31.535 --> 00:48:34.945 And, you know, it's just, we're still writing on paper, right? 00:48:34.945 --> 00:48:38.055 Like the homework comes home, we're still using a pencil or a crayon, right? 00:48:38.055 --> 00:48:38.735 To do this stuff. 00:48:39.045 --> 00:48:43.155 So, you know, trying to get him in the, in a different mindset to learn 00:48:43.155 --> 00:48:45.865 these words, I was like, Hey man, how about we build a little game? 00:48:46.315 --> 00:48:50.405 And if you can guess the right words, we'll have a dinosaur pop 00:48:50.405 --> 00:48:51.755 up with a little sound effect. 00:48:51.755 --> 00:48:53.175 And he was like, yeah, let's build it. 00:48:53.575 --> 00:48:54.755 So I just. 00:48:54.905 --> 00:48:59.825 Literally, take a picture, I'm grabbing my phone, take a picture of his homework, 00:49:00.255 --> 00:49:05.875 and I say, you know, and I paste it into, or I upload it to Bolt, and I 00:49:05.875 --> 00:49:09.595 say, grab these 12 words, I mean, I was so lazy, Nathan, I didn't even 00:49:09.595 --> 00:49:11.465 write the words, I took a picture. 00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:18.260 And I said, look at these words and make me a game, a guessing game, for, my, 00:49:18.830 --> 00:49:21.320 six year old son to, guess these words. 00:49:21.320 --> 00:49:23.630 If he gets it right, it makes a little ding sound. 00:49:23.630 --> 00:49:26.180 If he gets it wrong, it makes a little wrong sound. 00:49:26.430 --> 00:49:28.490 and he has to guess the missing letter. 00:49:28.700 --> 00:49:32.220 And if he gets whatever I said, 80 percent of it right, we'll have. 00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:35.560 confetti and a dinosaur show up at the end, right? 00:49:35.560 --> 00:49:37.990 Just a little fun game for him to play with. 00:49:38.290 --> 00:49:41.920 And it built it in, whatever, two minutes. 00:49:42.200 --> 00:49:46.020 And in two minutes, I had a little video game for him to play. 00:49:46.560 --> 00:49:48.020 And then we added to it. 00:49:48.040 --> 00:49:49.830 So I said, okay, this video game is great. 00:49:50.060 --> 00:49:51.610 Let's make a flash cards. 00:49:51.900 --> 00:49:52.150 And. 00:49:52.885 --> 00:49:57.195 It'll show the word for one second, and then go away, and then you'll have 00:49:57.205 --> 00:50:01.685 four words that are random, and the right word that my son has to pick from. 00:50:01.935 --> 00:50:03.015 A, B, C, or D. 00:50:03.885 --> 00:50:06.575 And then it built that, and we added to the video game. 00:50:06.575 --> 00:50:10.815 A little menu system at the beginning, and he could pick which game we could play. 00:50:11.235 --> 00:50:15.360 And then I started thinking to myself, like, Oh, I could extend this, like, you 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:19.810 know, I could make this a weekly thing, I could have a login, a top score chart, 00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:23.340 I could do this with all of his brothers, because we've got two other boys, and I 00:50:23.340 --> 00:50:27.760 was just like, my mind is just like racing with the, like the good opportunities. 00:50:27.895 --> 00:50:28.245 Nathan: what? 00:50:28.325 --> 00:50:29.405 It's really interesting. 00:50:29.415 --> 00:50:32.245 Of everything that we've talked about over the last 50 minutes or 00:50:32.245 --> 00:50:35.485 so, the most profound bit is that 00:50:36.070 --> 00:50:36.440 Matt: hmm, 00:50:38.425 --> 00:50:38.985 Nathan: okay. 00:50:39.415 --> 00:50:43.335 That was impossibly complicated until really recently. 00:50:43.675 --> 00:50:50.995 But also, you've, there is no barrier to entry for a child to do that. 00:50:51.655 --> 00:50:56.535 So, a game that would have been the purview of a fairly seasoned developer, 00:50:56.575 --> 00:50:59.455 and that card game that you've just described, I imagine would have 00:50:59.455 --> 00:51:01.595 consumed a decent amount of a day. 00:51:02.315 --> 00:51:06.115 And you can imagine the cost of the equipment required, and the cost 00:51:06.115 --> 00:51:08.695 of the, you know, the amount of time spent learning all of that. 00:51:09.035 --> 00:51:13.710 And now, You can have a child with a phone and a camera and a microphone 00:51:14.150 --> 00:51:15.980 and they can build something like that. 00:51:16.030 --> 00:51:20.380 And the reason it's profound is, is not so much that it's possible, it's 00:51:20.380 --> 00:51:24.500 that it's in the hand of a generation of people who are going to grow up. 00:51:25.485 --> 00:51:27.445 And that will be normal. 00:51:27.985 --> 00:51:33.085 And the idea that you would do anything other than ask an AI to assist you 00:51:33.085 --> 00:51:38.275 through this problem will be Like crazy, you know, why wouldn't I do that? 00:51:38.315 --> 00:51:41.365 You know in the same way that I now rely on things that my parents 00:51:41.675 --> 00:51:43.025 It's just, it's beyond them. 00:51:43.025 --> 00:51:46.315 They've reached that point where certain technologies can't be used. 00:51:46.315 --> 00:51:48.505 Like the mobile phone is a real enigma to them, but for me, 00:51:48.505 --> 00:51:50.555 it's just so straightforward. 00:51:51.165 --> 00:51:55.765 And that's going to be the case, you know, old curmudgeons like me, I don't have 00:51:55.765 --> 00:52:00.445 that relationship with it and I probably never will, but the generation coming 00:52:00.445 --> 00:52:05.995 up, if they can just get a handy thing for every problem that arises in life. 00:52:06.695 --> 00:52:11.545 You know, whatever it is, I don't know, build me an, I don't know, 00:52:11.565 --> 00:52:14.675 I've just come out of a tube station in an unfamiliar city. 00:52:15.155 --> 00:52:19.835 Can you, can you design me an app just to take me on the most interesting 00:52:19.845 --> 00:52:23.825 route possible around this city, take in some sights, and then give 00:52:23.825 --> 00:52:26.795 me a description of what I should be eating and how many calories it's got 00:52:26.825 --> 00:52:30.135 in it, and then send me to a decent hotel at the end, and whilst you're 00:52:30.135 --> 00:52:31.545 at it, will you just book it for me? 00:52:31.945 --> 00:52:34.375 You know, I imagine all of that's possible with Google Maps, 00:52:34.375 --> 00:52:35.425 actually, now that I say it. 00:52:35.755 --> 00:52:38.385 But the point being, you can just speak. 00:52:38.465 --> 00:52:40.055 The interface is your voice. 00:52:40.405 --> 00:52:42.475 And that's remarkable. 00:52:43.635 --> 00:52:47.425 Matt: There, I want to add in a couple other tools here, that I've, I've 00:52:47.425 --> 00:52:51.415 used and, and I think, another great way that instead of us looking at it 00:52:51.415 --> 00:52:53.395 like, Oh my God, WordPress is doomed. 00:52:54.015 --> 00:52:58.155 I think there's, I think there's some extensions that, that AI can help us with. 00:52:58.465 --> 00:53:03.805 So another tool that I use, especially with my, my children, That is this tool 00:53:03.805 --> 00:53:07.885 called WhisperFlow, I don't know if you've heard of it, it's called W I, it's 00:53:07.895 --> 00:53:13.525 Whisper, W I S P R, Flow, WhisperFlow, and it's, it, it, you turn it on, I just 00:53:13.525 --> 00:53:17.315 turned it on, there's a little button you click and you just speak, and it takes 00:53:17.315 --> 00:53:22.645 your words, and puts it into text, it's very simple, but the, the key factor 00:53:22.645 --> 00:53:25.235 of Whisper, and I'm sure there's other tools that do this, this is the one 00:53:25.235 --> 00:53:32.125 that I found, is it will clean up Your garbage vocabulary and all your filler 00:53:32.125 --> 00:53:37.015 words just like we do with Descript so if I turn it on and I go into bolt or my 00:53:37.015 --> 00:53:42.355 at my my chat GPT I Can just talk to it and be like hey, so here's what I want 00:53:42.355 --> 00:53:46.485 to build I want to build this app that does like a video game for my seven year 00:53:46.485 --> 00:53:51.815 old to learn I can just talk ums and ahs and spacing and pauses and then it just 00:53:51.975 --> 00:53:57.570 cleans it up and condenses it into the acute information that is needed Right? 00:53:57.670 --> 00:54:01.230 So it doesn't have all the ums and the ahs, and then you just paste that 00:54:01.640 --> 00:54:04.250 into the prompt and you hit enter. 00:54:05.130 --> 00:54:06.640 And then it just takes your idea. 00:54:06.910 --> 00:54:09.520 So I was letting my son, my son do that, you know, and 00:54:09.520 --> 00:54:11.550 it's just because he's seven. 00:54:11.550 --> 00:54:15.690 So he's just talking and he's, well, dad, should I do this? 00:54:15.700 --> 00:54:17.260 And yep, tell it what you want. 00:54:17.330 --> 00:54:20.920 And then it just cleans it up into like bullet point text, all like 00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:23.620 the two minutes of him just like kind of like babbling and rambling. 00:54:23.990 --> 00:54:26.050 And it just creates a prompt for them that's accurate. 00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:27.980 And then we just hit enter and it builds it. 00:54:28.540 --> 00:54:31.500 and I think, you know, tools like that, just like you said, 00:54:31.510 --> 00:54:34.410 these are going to be so common. 00:54:34.490 --> 00:54:36.950 Especially for, you know, for our kids as they grow up to 00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:38.040 like do this kind of thing. 00:54:38.550 --> 00:54:41.100 But here's the extension I think that's super valuable. 00:54:41.100 --> 00:54:43.280 that you can do with, that you WordPress. 00:54:43.660 --> 00:54:48.590 Or any system really, but think about databases of important information, tax 00:54:48.590 --> 00:54:54.620 information, real estate information, land Plots, forgetting the word for it right 00:54:54.620 --> 00:55:01.060 now You know stuff that's impactful in your local community Information that's 00:55:01.060 --> 00:55:04.790 hard to get out from like just like your local government like who has access 00:55:04.790 --> 00:55:09.010 to what water filtration all this stuff That's like stuck in millions of databases 00:55:09.010 --> 00:55:16.425 around the world I'm building something now with Gravity Forms, API, REST API. 00:55:16.735 --> 00:55:19.065 So, Gravity Forms has REST API. 00:55:19.065 --> 00:55:21.045 If you're using Gravity Forms to store information on your 00:55:21.045 --> 00:55:26.735 site, I can turn to Bolt and say, build me an app that analyzes the 00:55:26.735 --> 00:55:29.545 data in this Gravity Forms form. 00:55:29.815 --> 00:55:30.985 Here's the API keys. 00:55:31.475 --> 00:55:33.615 Go build me a table of that, that data. 00:55:33.645 --> 00:55:37.035 And by the way, analyze it with ChatGPT. 00:55:37.330 --> 00:55:41.120 And give me whatever, you know, whatever you think is the, the valuable 00:55:41.120 --> 00:55:47.530 information, draw a graph, do all this stuff, hit enter, boom, like it accesses 00:55:47.560 --> 00:55:50.940 data and WordPress is a great data store. 00:55:51.250 --> 00:55:53.440 Like that's my future vision of WordPress. 00:55:53.450 --> 00:55:58.500 When Matt many years ago said operating system of the web, I can see WordPress as 00:55:58.510 --> 00:56:06.150 like a future, just database of content, open, accessible, build it your way. 00:56:06.750 --> 00:56:11.230 And then these AI tools can then go in and get this data and help us build 00:56:11.230 --> 00:56:14.120 robust solutions for whatever it is 00:56:14.270 --> 00:56:19.650 Nathan: Gosh, it sounds like, okay, so I can't, can't allow 00:56:19.650 --> 00:56:20.970 us to finish on a positive note. 00:56:21.390 --> 00:56:22.040 Matt: You're english 00:56:22.050 --> 00:56:23.270 Nathan: that's right, we have to bring it down a little bit. 00:56:23.450 --> 00:56:27.570 And, so I, I do wonder, you know, what is going to be our capacity to cope 00:56:27.570 --> 00:56:32.160 with boredom in the future and to, you know, just to cope with not being able 00:56:32.160 --> 00:56:35.770 to achieve something like that, you know, if we're out of, if we're out of 00:56:35.770 --> 00:56:39.820 contact with our AI, if we go on holiday and the, I don't know, the, the internet 00:56:39.820 --> 00:56:43.950 breaks where we're living, you just have this like, but wait, no, I can't cope. 00:56:44.100 --> 00:56:48.915 I don't have AI plugged in to my head kind of thing that, that, that, that. 00:56:48.975 --> 00:56:50.335 Bit of life does worry me. 00:56:50.575 --> 00:56:53.785 I do, I do see that, you know, there's something quite nice about 00:56:53.785 --> 00:56:56.385 being disconnected and the more that we connect, the more that we 00:56:56.385 --> 00:56:58.135 require to be connected and so on. 00:56:58.135 --> 00:57:01.395 So I do think there are some guardrails that we need to build in. 00:57:01.815 --> 00:57:04.875 and I don't know how busy we want our heads to be in the future. 00:57:04.925 --> 00:57:06.525 I mean, it all sounds so great, doesn't it? 00:57:06.605 --> 00:57:10.435 All this amazing stuff that you can do and access to all this information 00:57:10.445 --> 00:57:13.295 all the time and the ability to wrangle it and manipulate it. 00:57:13.305 --> 00:57:14.145 Don't get me wrong. 00:57:14.155 --> 00:57:16.295 It really, really sounds amazing. 00:57:16.830 --> 00:57:20.650 But, maybe, maybe at this point I will go and sit on my desert island and. 00:57:21.285 --> 00:57:24.125 smash coconuts and drink the, drink the liquid that comes 00:57:24.125 --> 00:57:25.305 out of them and that'll be me. 00:57:25.975 --> 00:57:27.985 Matt: Yeah, well, my lap. 00:57:27.995 --> 00:57:32.295 My last point is, like you said before, it have to get stuck in 00:57:32.685 --> 00:57:34.205 to AI and start learning it now. 00:57:34.635 --> 00:57:37.725 And I think that's all that I think that's all that means is 00:57:37.725 --> 00:57:39.695 to learn it and understand it. 00:57:39.835 --> 00:57:43.115 Like, I don't think anyone needs to be a superhero with AI or you 00:57:43.115 --> 00:57:44.375 have to go out and build apps. 00:57:44.825 --> 00:57:48.995 But understand the fundamentals are like when you used to crack open WordPress, 00:57:49.345 --> 00:57:51.900 you looked at HTML, CSS and PHP. 00:57:52.330 --> 00:57:54.600 And you just looked at it, and you're like, I kind of get 00:57:54.670 --> 00:57:56.020 what this does, this functions. 00:57:56.030 --> 00:57:56.610 php file. 00:57:56.850 --> 00:58:00.320 Like, I think that's the same mindset you have to take with this, like, 00:58:00.660 --> 00:58:03.730 understand Vanilla, ChatGPT, and Claude. 00:58:04.070 --> 00:58:06.330 Then understand, like, what these other, like, Repl. 00:58:06.330 --> 00:58:09.690 it and Bolt environments do, and what the differences are, how to connect them up. 00:58:09.990 --> 00:58:12.640 You don't have to be building something super robust, and I 00:58:12.660 --> 00:58:17.590 think even that is a step ahead for yourself, you know, in a couple of 00:58:17.815 --> 00:58:18.155 Nathan: Yeah. 00:58:18.185 --> 00:58:18.885 Well, we'll see. 00:58:19.325 --> 00:58:20.935 that was a fascinating conversation, Matt. 00:58:20.975 --> 00:58:22.005 I really enjoyed that. 00:58:22.165 --> 00:58:22.655 Thank you. 00:58:22.945 --> 00:58:25.835 We'll come back in a couple of years time or we'll see if, you know, see if there's, 00:58:25.875 --> 00:58:27.275 there's anything left of humanity. 00:58:27.910 --> 00:58:31.560 Matt: I'm either gonna be in Hollywood or like connected up to 16 machines. 00:58:31.570 --> 00:58:31.940 I don't know. 00:58:32.595 --> 00:58:33.245 Nathan: Well, good luck. 00:58:33.515 --> 00:58:35.025 Good luck in the year 2025. 00:58:35.065 --> 00:58:35.575 Thanks, Matt. 00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:36.460 Matt: Yes. 00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:37.280 Thank you, Nathan.