Books and Bites Podcast, Ep. 115: Reads for America 250 Carrie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Books and Bites podcast. Each month, we bring you book recommendations and discuss the bites and beverages to pair with them. I'm Carrie Green, and I'm here with my co-hosts, Michael Cunningham and Jacqueline Cooper. Michael: Hello. Jacqueline: Hello, everyone Carrie: So we're starting the Summer Bingo sheet on this episode. Michael, you wanna tell a little bit about that? Michael: Yes. So this'll work like the other two we've done so far this year. So from July 1st through September 30th, we will do our Summer Books and Bites Bingo. Track it just like you do on the other bingo sheets. You complete all nine squares to win a $50 Joseph-Beth gift card, and also we'll have another special Books and Bites bookmark for you, and you can turn them in any time during the month of September. Carrie: That's right. Michael: And we got some really good prompts, and for a little sneak peek, I would say the one I'm interested in reading is, features a sport. Carrie: Oh, yeah? Michael: Yeah. Carrie: Do you have a book picked out yet or a [00:01:00] particular sport you're interested in? Michael: I had a couple that I'm interested in, one about the USFL, which was a spring football league that rivaled the NFL for a short period in the '80s, and it kind of was taken down by a familiar person we've all come to know. Carrie: Oh, okay. [Laughter] Michael: And then there's one called Rebel League, which is about the WHA, which was a hockey league that rivaled the NHL during the '70s and '80s and had a lot of ... It was so big that they had to merge with the NHL eventually, and there's a couple of those teams still around today. Carrie: Hmm. Interesting. You know, I just, I forgot that that was one of the prompts, and the book that I'm talking about today, it ... The whole book isn't about it, but one chapter includes a basketball team, a girls' basketball team, one of the first girls' basketball teams in the country. So it has an element of sports. I [00:02:00] don't know if it has- Michael: Okay. Carrie: I don't know that it would qualify for that prompt, but Jacqueline, what about you? Is there a prompt that you're looking forward to? Jacqueline: I think the set on an island could be fun. Carrie: Yeah. Jacqueline: Trying to find one. Carrie: Hmm. Yeah, that's kind of the one that I was looking forward to, too. [Laughter] Jacqueline: I wanna go on an island right now. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah. Jacqueline: Get those ocean breezes. Carrie: Yeah. Me too. I just started listening to one on audio, so ... And it's kind of hitting what I wanted out of an island book. Jacqueline: Oh, that's good. Carrie: Which is maybe not what you would want out of an island book. Michael: No. My island book is an island you wanna stay away from. [Laughter] Jacqueline: Ooh. I could reread Dr. Doolittle's on an island, right? Carrie: I don't know. Jacqueline: They were stranded on, stranded on somewhere. That could be a fun reread. Carrie: Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. So today we're talking about, in honor of the 250th [00:03:00] anniversary of the United States, we're going to talk about books about American history, and that could be fiction or nonfiction. Do you all have a favorite period of American history? Jacqueline: I think the civil rights movement. There's just so much involved in that, and I've read quite a few books, like, about the civil rights movement, and it's amazing some of the stories that have come out of, out of that era. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jacqueline: And that we're still, I don't know if we've, we're still kind of leading the way in that in some ways, I think, for some countries. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael? Michael: Well, probably mine would be the US Civil War. That's one I've always been fascinated by since I've been in middle school. Yeah, I've been to, let's see, Fort Sumter, Vicksburg, I think Shiloh. I've not been to Gettysburg. But yeah, I've always, especially the military aspect and the strategy and the generals. That's always been a point of [00:04:00] fascination for me. And thinking about it now where I was then is also interesting. Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. That is a nice... That is an interesting time period. Michael: Yeah. Jacqueline: A lot of- Michael: Very brutal. Jacqueline: Yeah. Brethren against brethren. Carrie: Yeah, and we're still dealing with it- Michael: Oh, yeah ... Carrie: today. Yeah. Michael: Yeah. Carrie: And, you know, the period of history you're interested in is a result of decisions made- Jacqueline: Yeah. Mm ... Carrie: shortly after the Civil War and the Civil War. Jacqueline: It kind of ties together- Carrie: Mm ... Jacqueline: obviously, huh? Carrie: Yeah. And I went through a period of reading a lot about 18th century women, because, you know, they were a lot more involved, I think, than they're given credit for. Like, Abigail Adams in particular, you know, her writing to John Adams, "Remember the ladies," which of course they didn't. [00:05:00] But, in many ways, like she was, in their home, she was a very equal partner. So I read a biography of her, and then I really love reading letters between different people. And so I read a collection of letters between John and Abigail Adams called My Dearest Friend: Letters of John and Abigail Adams. And then another book that I read and really enjoyed was Book of Ages: The Life and Opinions of Jane Franklin by Jill Lepore, and that's about Benjamin Franklin's sister. And it kind of looked at it from this lens of, you know, they both had the same abilities, incredibly smart people. But because he was a man, he had so many more advantages and, you know, look where he was able to, become one of the leaders of the country. And [00:06:00] meanwhile, she was at home- Had 12 children, I think all of whom, except for one, died during her lifetime. So, you know, she had all of these difficulties and yet she was also writing back and forth with her brother constantly. I think we don't often think about the women who were influential in the men's lives at the time. And even, you know, then you think about, like, people of color and Indigenous people and, you know, all of the... Their stories were part of the story too, and we don't always hear those either. Michael: Yep. That's true. Jacqueline: That's true. Carrie: Anyway, the book that I'm gonna be talking about, the book that I read kind of deals with some of that. Shall we get to it? Michael: Merica. [Laughter][00:07:00] Carrie's Pick Carrie: I read "Wild Girls: How the Outdoors Shaped the Women Who Challenged a Nation" by Tiya Miles. "Wild Girls," by the National Book Award-winning author of "All That She Carried," explores how trailblazing 19th and early 20th century women became leaders thanks in part to their girlhood experiences with nature and the outdoors. Published as part of the Norton Shorts, this series aims to "deliver bold thinking and fresh perspectives in under 200 pages." If you're put off by a 400-plus page book of history but would still like to learn about American women, "Wild Girls" offers plenty to think about in its small package. Miles discusses well-known figures like Harriet Tubman [00:08:00] and Louisa May Alcott, as well as lesser-known women. She argues that spending time outside allowed these girls freedoms that they wouldn't have otherwise had. "In their vastly different social and geographical locations," she writes, "nature's classroom taught these girls how to question societal beliefs and practices, and sometimes how to evade those who sought to steal life." In the first chapter, she discusses how Harriet Tubman and other girls born into slavery used their knowledge of nature and the night sky to survive, self-emancipate, and lead others to freedom. Likewise, Laura Smith Haviland, a white woman with a strong connection to the outdoors, became an active member of the Underground Railroad. The second chapter covers nature writers of all races, including Louisa May Alcott, [00:09:00] the Indigenous writers Jane Johnston Schoolcraft and Gertrude Simmons Bonnin, and the Black writer Mamie Garvin Fields. These women knew the beauty and power of nature and used it as a tool for social commentary and to resist racism and misogyny. In chapter three, Miles writes about the Fort Shaw Indian Boarding School basketball team, one of the first girls' basketball teams in the country. These Montana girls beat everyone, including an all-star white girls' basketball team at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair. Indian boarding schools attempted to assimilate Indigenous children into white culture, erasing their identity. The basketball team allowed the girls a measure of freedom on the court. "Through determination, athleticism, and team building across tribal lines," [00:10:00] Miles writes, "these girls forged an unexpected escape from spatial and cultural confinement, demonstrating along the way that Native girls could compete on the white world's uneven playing field." In the concluding chapters, Miles touches on the importance of nature in the lives of more modern activists, such as Octavia Butler and Dolores Huerta. She also discusses the unequal access that children of color have to outdoor spaces in contemporary life, and argues that all children need time to play and explore outside. Pair "Wild Girls" with Iced Hibiscus Mint Tea, the perfect drink to enjoy after spending time outdoors. I discovered this recipe in "The Blue Zone Kitchen One Pot Meals" by Dan Buettner, and it's been my thirst quencher of choice this summer. Hibiscus tea is popular in [00:11:00] Western Africa, as well as Central and South America and the Caribbean. It's antioxidant-rich and may provide health benefits such as reduced inflammation, blood pressure, and cholesterol. The taste is similar to cranberries, tart and slightly sweet, and the resulting color is a rich, deep pink. Brew dried hibiscus flowers, or you can use hibiscus tea bags like I do, fresh mint, lime peel, and then add some honey. You can top it off with club soda if you prefer some fizz, but I find it more refreshing without. Michael: That does sound really good. Sounds like a good, a good summer drink. Carrie: It is. Michael: Especially this week. Carrie: Yeah, I know. Jacqueline: It's interesting how so many things make the playing field for women and diverse people with the sports and in particular, like you were saying, but there's other [00:12:00] writing and some other things that really kinda helped level the playing field for people, music, especially for African Americans. Carrie: Well, yeah. But, you know, her argument though is that their specific experiences of being outside where they were a little bit freed from the traditional gender roles, Jacqueline: Oh, that's true ... Carrie: and able to be more physical, and especially, like for the enslaved girls, if you were in the house, that was a lot more dangerous for you because there were white men there who might take advantage of you. Harriet Tubman too, you know, I didn't know a lot about her before I read this book, and even though it's very short, just realized how amazing she was. She escaped slavery, and then she came back like over a dozen [00:13:00] times to get other people and lead them to freedom. Jacqueline: Mm, yeah, she's amazing. Michael: There's a, there's a good film that was made several years ago, I think it's called Harriet, and Cynthia Erivo played Harriet Tubman. It was pretty good. She was- Carrie: Mm-hmm ... Michael: she was quite good. And that was before she became, you know, Elphaba. Carrie: Oh, she played Elphaba? Michael: Yeah, in Wicked, yeah. Carrie: Oh, okay. Yeah. Michael: Yeah. That, I mean, I don't think she lost anybody when she came- When she was, part of the Underground Railroad- Carrie: Mm-hmm ... Michael: which was just... And they called her, didn't they call her General or something? General Tubman or- Carrie: Yeah, I think so ... Michael: they gave her like a, like a, a rank or something. She, yeah, she was not one... Carrie: And she actually, I mean, she spent most of her time, in slavery working outside, and she was like, a woodswoman. Anyway, so [00:14:00] lots of physical strength- Michael: Yeah. Oh, yeah ... Carrie: as well as knowledge about the natural world. Michael: Very fascinating. Carrie: Yeah, and that basketball team, there needs to be... I mean, you can definitely see that being a movie or something, because they were all very amazing. I mean, this was the infancy of basketball, and it was probably the best team at the time, this Fort Shaw Indian Boarding School. Michael: Wow. Jacqueline: That's neat. I never heard of them. Michael: I wanna say I've heard, I've heard of that before, that story. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: I can't remember where, where I heard it. And I think, isn't there a boarding school? Like the remnants still in Kentucky somewhere? Carrie: Oh, I don't know. Michael: I wanna say there was somewhere. Oh man, I'll have to look it up. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: I can't remember where it was. But they, I think they built like a shelter over it, what remained of it. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'd be interested to learn more about that. [00:15:00] All right. But I think what I liked about this book was it was also, it was very empowering to read about how they were able to resist and, like, find joy even during these difficult times. So it didn't feel like you were reading, you know, sometimes books about ... Sometimes books can be a little bit, they can be really overwhelming- Michael: Yeah ... Carrie: with, with the terrible things that happen to people. So I appreciated that about this book as well. Jacqueline: Well, the outdoors kind of facilitated that. Carrie: Yeah, yeah. Michael: That's nice. Yeah. I miss the outdoors. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah. Working in an office, you don't necessarily get that. Yeah. But I don't know. This week is a pretty good time to be working in an office- Michael: Yes ... Carrie: with the- Michael: Oh man ... Carrie: 90-plus degrees outside. Michael: I won't be on the trails this week. Carrie: Yeah.[00:16:00] Jacqueline's Pick Jacqueline: The book I read for this month's prompt was Two Degrees by Alan Gratz. Two Degrees is a historical fiction novel targeted toward a middle school audience set in the United States and Canada. The story follows four different teens and is told through the lens of real climate change-related events: fire, water, and ice. The first story is told by Akira, who lives in the Sierra Nevada mountains of California. Akira and her father, Lars, are out riding their horses, Elwood and Dodger. Dodger, a chestnut quarter gelding. They live in the Sequoias, which are over two thousand years old and have survived fires thanks to natural evolutionary adaptions. Lars uses these trees as an example of nature being able to take care of itself. He believes that blaming temperatures on humans and the greenhouse gases we produce is [00:17:00] untrue. Akira has tried convincing her father that climate change is real, but Lars instead flatly refuses to listen to any evidence to the contrary. Akira loves spending the time outdoors with her dad, who is knowledgeable about nature, so she avoids bringing up topics that might contradict his views because she doesn't want to spoil their rides by arguing. Dodger is the first to sense a fire nearby, stopping and pricking his ears to signal that something is wrong. However, Lars dismisses this warning and reassures Akira that the small fires are beneficial, even though recent fires have been much larger and a red flag warning is in effect. When the fires grow out of control, it separates Akira from her father. She becomes trapped in the Sierra Nevada mountains only with Dodger and a girl she met earlier that day. As the fire spreads rapidly, even the ancient Sequoias are in danger of burning. The second story centers on a hurricane in Miami that [00:18:00] sweeps Natalie Torres and her neighbor's dog, Churro, away in the rising floodwaters. Unable to escape the deadly Category Five storm, Natalie and Churro search for refuge, trying to find higher ground as the water continues to rise to second and even third stories of buildings. This third storyline is set in the Arctic as two boys, George Gruyère and Owen Mackenzie. What begins as a fun snowmobile outing quickly turns dangerous when they encounter polar bears. Because the bears' habitats are being disrupted by rising global temperatures, they struggle to travel across the ice after hibernation. The melting ice, a result of even a two degrees temperature increase, affects the access to food, leaving the boys stranded with very hungry bears. Two Degrees offers readers a novel with diverse representations and a powerful message about the real scientific dangers of climate change told through the experiences of young [00:19:00] teens. Although Gratz's characters often come close to dying, there are also light-hearted and heartwarming moments throughout the story. I found a recipe for chai tea lattes from Detoxinista on YouTube. You can drink it hot or cold, depending on which story you're reading at the time. Click on the recipe on our website or search Detoxinista's at @DetoxinistaRecipes. Michael: So what time period do these stories take place in? Jacqueline: Modern, like 2000, like the past 20 years, where we're starting to feel the effects of all these climate changes. So I mean, it's not like super historic, but it's in the past. So do you remember the great fire that the Sequoias burned in? I think it's like over the past... no? Yeah, and these are just, these aren't like real stories. These are stories, like they are real stories- Michael: Yeah ... Jacqueline: but people, that happened to people in the past, some of the things have changed. Like there [00:20:00] wasn't really, I don't think they named the real hurricane. You know, there was a big fire that burned the great Sequoias. It's been a while. You know, they're not, they don't usually burn when there's fires because they have this bark that protects them. That was what, I mean, that's according to the story. Michael: There's been so many fires out there, I lose track of them. Jacqueline: Yeah. I mean, you know, past 20 years- Michael: Yeah, okay ... Jacqueline: these things have happened. With climate change, with the polar bears, you know, their ice is melting. So it's also the future too, 'cause we're still having, we're still dealing with all these things. Part of it was that they kind of, the kids are kind of dismissing some of these things, but then when they are actually affected by it, they kind of wake up and think, "You know, wow, what can we do to help?" Carrie: Yeah. We all kinda need to do that, don't we? Before it's too late. Jacqueline: Yeah, yeah. Because we do have historical events, you know. I mean, the polar bears have been, the ice caps melting for how long [00:21:00] now? Seems like it's been over 20 years since they've started to melt. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: Sorry, mine's depressing. [Laughter] Carrie: Oh, no. I was just thinking we're... It's, yeah, maybe not the most uplifting, episode. Jacqueline: Yeah. Sorry. [Laughter] Carrie: Mine either. Michael, you're gonna have to- Michael: Okay ... Carrie: you're gonna have to- Jacqueline: Bring up the uplifting ... Carrie: to bring it, yeah. Michael: This one's a good one. Jacqueline: We tend to remember the past. Do we remember the past events usually because there was a lot of strife and struggles, right? Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yep. But, you also, you have tea, so we both had tea. Jacqueline: Oh, we did both have tea. Michael: Ooh, I do not have tea. Carrie: You don't have tea? Michael: Oh, no. Might pair well with tea. Maybe. [Laughter][00:22:00] Michael's Pick Michael: This month I'm recommending "Candice Millard's Destiny of the Republic: A Tale of Madness, Medicine, and the Murder of a President." This book explores the events leading up to and surrounding the assassination of President James A. Garfield by Charles Guiteau in 1881. It shines a light on a fascinating but often overlooked period of American history, and on a president whose promising career was tragically cut short. In 1880, the Republican Party was deeply divided. On one side were the Stalwarts, led by the powerful Senator Roscoe Conkling. They supported maintaining the spoils system, which rewarded political supporters with government jobs regardless of qualifications, and they opposed efforts at reconciliation with the South. On the other side were the Half-Breeds, who advocated for reform and a system based on merit. At the contentious Republican National Convention of 1880, the longest in the party's history, a shocking [00:23:00] compromise candidate emerged, James A. Garfield. In one of the great political twists of the era, Garfield secured the Republican nomination despite not actively seeking the nomination. As the book traces Garfield's rise from humble beginnings in Ohio to a Union Army general, congressman, and ultimately president, it also introduces us to his future assassin, Charles Guiteau. Guiteau was a man who failed at nearly everything he attempted. Convinced he was destined for greatness, he drifted from city to city, leaving unpaid bills and debts behind him. Even his own father believed he was insane. Guiteau eventually became obsessed with the idea that he deserved a diplomatic appointment as consul to Paris for his supportive role in Garfield's election. When that position never came to be, he convinced himself that assassinating the president was a call from God. The book also examines the efforts to save Garfield's life after the shooting. The famed inventor Alexander Graham Bell worked tirelessly to develop a device that could locate the bullet lodged in [00:24:00] Garfield's body, what we would now know as the metal detector. Tragically, the American medical practices of the time, refusing to accept Joseph Lister's antisepsis practices, along with the arrogance of the doctors treating the president, was more responsible for killing Garfield than Guiteau's bullet itself, when they continuously poked and prodded the president's wounds with dirty fingers. Carrie: Geez. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. There's, they stuck, stuck them in there. [Laughter] Trying to get that, oh, yeah. Just introduced infection after infection. Carrie: Oh, my gosh. Michael: Yeah. Before reading this book, I knew very little about James Garfield beyond the fact that he was one of the assassinated presidents often treated as a historical footnote. What I discovered was a remarkable leader and fighter who rose from poverty through determination and hard work, championed civil rights for African Americans during the difficult post-Reconstruction era, and never even wanted to be president in the first place. Destiny of the Republic [00:25:00] masterfully weaves together stories of James Garfield, Charles Guiteau, Alexander Graham Bell, and the state of medicine in the late 19th century. The result is a compelling narrative that brings a forgotten chapter of American history vividly to life. And if the story leaves you wanting more, Netflix recently adapted the book into an excellent limited series called Death by Lightning starring Michael Shannon as Garfield and Nick Offerman as his vice president, Chester A. Arthur. If you wanna eat like a president, pair this book with Garfield's favorite dish, squirrel soup. Carrie: All right. [Laughter] Michael: A love born from his rural Ohio upbringing. A recipe featured in Eats History includes ingredients such as squirrel, onion, garlic, carrots, celery, and potatoes. Because squirrel's not readily available for most cooks today, chicken thighs make an excellent substitute, offering a similar texture and flavor. Carrie: Hmm. Jacqueline: I've never heard of squirrel soup. I've heard of turtle soup. Michael: Oh, squirrel soup. Yeah. Jacqueline: You've had it [00:26:00] before? Michael: I've not had it, no. But I'll try it with the chicken thighs. I love chicken thighs. Jacqueline: Yeah. Carrie: My grandmother used to make, for her mother, they were from Appalachia, and she loved squirrel brains. Michael: Ooh. Carrie: So she used to make that for her mother. Michael: Oh, that would take a lot of squirrels. Carrie: I know, wouldn't it? [Laughter] I never saw it, so I don't really know, you know, was the rest of the squirrel included along with the brains? Because I agree, that would take a lot of- It would take a lot of brains. Michael: That's a waste. Carrie: A lot of squirrels. Yeah. I'm sure they used- you know, they didn't- that was subsistence cooking, so it wasn't like they would be likely to waste it. But anyway. Jacqueline: My grandfather liked squirrel, they fried it like chicken. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: wasn't my, [00:27:00] my cup of tea as they say. [Laughter] But we did have it. Carrie: Oh, so you've tried it? Jacqueline: Yeah. We did. It's very gamey. Yeah. As opposed to like a chicken that you buy from the store. Carrie: Yeah. Probably a lot better for you because what they were eating is probably not, not as much fat on the meat. Michael: Yeah. Jacqueline: That's true. They were... It was scrawny looking, I remember. [Laughter] She didn't tell us it was squirrel when she served it. Carrie: Uh-oh. Okay. Jacqueline: So we thought it was fried chicken, and I was like, and I actually said, "This is awful scrawny squirrel." [Laughter] I mean, it's chicken. And then I learned 'cause it wasn't a chicken. Carrie: That's funny. Yeah, so, Garfield sounds really interesting. How long had he been in office before he got assassinated? Michael: Oh, man, just a few months. Cause I think, I think in Aug- the inauguration happened actually, like in March. I think he was shot, was it July? [00:28:00] So not very long. Carrie: Oh. Michael: I think he passed in September is when he finally Went on, yeah. So- Carrie: So basically you're known for- Michael: Being assassinated. Yeah. And Chester A. Arthur, the, Roscoe Conkling was like this big boss in New York, and Chester A. Arthur was his right-hand man, and so he was kind of this puppet vice president. And then when Garfield died, Arthur was like, "Uh-oh, what do I do?" [Laughter] "I don't know how to be president." But yeah, he actually, like, I think Arthur went, eventually kinda went against Conkling and did away with the spoils system, I think after seeing what happened. I think the Garfield thing really changed him and changed a lot of people. Michael: It kinda brought the country more together- Carrie: Oh Michael: after he got shot. Carrie: Interesting. Yeah. Michael: More than Reconstruction did. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: Cause everybody felt like this is, this is our president. He was trying to bring everybody together. He was a fighter for civil rights, and he was not one man to back down from a fight. [00:29:00] So very interesting character, and he could've done I think a lot of good if- Carrie: So was Lincoln... I mean, Lincoln was assassinated as well during the Civil War. Like, was there somebody in between them or...? Michael: Yeah. Grant I know was president, who was very corrupt. But he was also very pro-civil, civil rights too. He got rid of the Klan, pretty much, pretty much buried them. But, like, the spoils system, but he was a lot of corruption scandals under his presidency. And then Rutherford B. Hayes was right before, was right after, I think, Grant, and he was just, he was fighting against, like, Conkling and the Stalwarts their entire time, so he couldn't get much of anything done. And he didn't run again, so everybody thought it was gonna be Grant again, and then he just, well, Garfield came out of nowhere to shock [00:30:00] the entire party and country. Carrie: I mean, I feel like you almost would have to be someone who didn't actually want to run for president to, like, because, you know, who wants to do that at this point, you know? Michael: Yeah. Like, Garfield was sitting there. He was there for Sherman. William Tecumseh Sherman's brother, who was running from Ohio, and then someone nominated him from, like, Pennsylvania when they were doing the votes. And they said, "Garfield." He said, "Wait, wait a minute. I'm not running for this. I'm here for Sherman." And then, like, what was it? And then, I know, and then he- Conkling and Garfield were going at each other, was trying to insert himself, and Garfield was fighting against him when he finally got elected. And then, what was it Conkling did? He eventually was like, you know, he, 'cause he wanted all his people and all the secretaries and everything [00:31:00] be, have his puppets everywhere. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: And Garfield was fighting it, and then Conkling was, "Well, I'm just gonna show you how powerful I am. I'm gonna resign my Senate seat, and then I'll get reelected." And guess what? He didn't get reelected. [Laughter] Carrie: Wow. Michael: Yeah. Jacqueline: Maybe it saved his life. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: Well then everybody thought Conkling was responsible for it, hired Guiteau to kill him, so he was believing in deeper stuff, and America was mad, everybody was mad at Conkling and Arthur- Right after the assassination. Carrie: And have you watched that series? Michael: I just started it. It's good. Michael Shannon does a good job as Garfield, and then, yeah... Like, Nick Offerman is Chester A. Arthur. Carrie: Yeah. I seem to remember seeing it, but I don't know why we didn't watch it. Yeah, have to put that in the queue. Michael: Yeah. It's good. [00:32:00] The opening scene, they're like, it's in the '70s, and they're like the National History Museum, and like a jar rolls out of a box they're moving, and it says, "Brain of Charles Guiteau," and they're like- "Who is Charles Guiteau?" This man who thought he was gonna be famous. [Laughter] Carrie: That's funny. Yeah. Wow. . Thanks for listening to the Books and Bites podcast. Our theme music is "The Breakers" from the album In Close Quarters with the Enemy by Scott Whiddon. Learn more about Scott and his music at his website, adoorforadesk.com.