WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:04.509 --> 00:00:07.309 voiceover: A key component of the modern world economy, the chemical 00:00:07.309 --> 00:00:10.849 industry delivers products and innovations to enhance everyday life. 00:00:11.369 --> 00:00:15.359 It is also an industry in transformation where chemical executives and 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:18.989 workers are delivering growth and industry changing advancements while 00:00:18.989 --> 00:00:22.729 responding to pressures from investors, regulators, and public opinion. 00:00:23.279 --> 00:00:26.219 Discover how leading companies are approaching these challenges 00:00:26.229 --> 00:00:27.829 here on the chemical show. 00:00:28.299 --> 00:00:31.639 Join Victoria Meyer, president of Progressio Global and 00:00:31.649 --> 00:00:33.069 host of the chemical show. 00:00:33.344 --> 00:00:37.544 As she speaks with executives across the industry and learns how they are leading 00:00:37.544 --> 00:00:43.124 their companies to grow, transform, and push industry boundaries on all frontiers. 00:00:43.464 --> 00:00:45.714 Here's your host, Victoria Meyer. 00:00:48.902 --> 00:00:50.522 Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer. 00:00:50.602 --> 00:00:54.462 Welcome back to The Chemical Show where Chemicals means Business. 00:00:54.892 --> 00:01:01.462 Today I am speaking with Frank Fisher, who is the founder and CEO of South Carolina 00:01:01.462 --> 00:01:08.309 Chemical and Fisher Specialty Advising, and is also the COO of Duralayer LLC. 00:01:09.064 --> 00:01:12.923 If you know Frank, you might have thought that he was ready for retirement after 00:01:12.933 --> 00:01:18.083 having a really great career at both Dow and Milliken, but it's obvious 00:01:18.083 --> 00:01:22.833 that he still has a lot of energy and passion for the chemical industry, 00:01:22.843 --> 00:01:24.463 which we are going to hear about today. 00:01:24.763 --> 00:01:25.073 So. 00:01:25.373 --> 00:01:26.993 Frank, welcome to The Chemical Show. 00:01:28.073 --> 00:01:29.553 Frank: Thank you for having me, Victoria. 00:01:29.623 --> 00:01:30.803 Looking forward to the conversation. 00:01:31.363 --> 00:01:32.033 Victoria: Absolutely. 00:01:32.083 --> 00:01:33.273 Really great to have you here. 00:01:33.623 --> 00:01:37.993 So you started your career as a chemist with a PhD at that. 00:01:38.263 --> 00:01:42.203 And then moved into business and procurement roles and 00:01:42.203 --> 00:01:43.723 really never looked back. 00:01:44.143 --> 00:01:47.683 So maybe tell us a little bit about that shift in your career. 00:01:47.683 --> 00:01:52.823 Even what sparked your interest in chemicals and then led to that shift. 00:01:53.443 --> 00:01:55.823 Frank: It was a very non traditional route. 00:01:56.093 --> 00:01:58.753 And so I'll back all the way up to the beginning. 00:01:59.123 --> 00:02:02.083 The high school I went to, not a lot of people went to college. 00:02:02.483 --> 00:02:04.233 I did not intend on going to college. 00:02:04.253 --> 00:02:05.883 This was kind of a machine shop town. 00:02:05.933 --> 00:02:07.523 My mother and father didn't go to college. 00:02:08.113 --> 00:02:13.313 My father expected me to take over the small family business, and that was that. 00:02:13.913 --> 00:02:17.333 Um, I was walking down the hallway, the guidance counselor came up and 00:02:17.333 --> 00:02:20.233 grabbed me my junior year and asked me where I was going to college. 00:02:20.703 --> 00:02:22.873 I said, I never really thought about it. 00:02:22.873 --> 00:02:28.013 He goes, uh, your marks are so high, you can get a scholarship almost anywhere. 00:02:28.563 --> 00:02:29.743 Why don't you consider that? 00:02:30.383 --> 00:02:32.263 So I went in his office and we talked about it. 00:02:32.723 --> 00:02:37.553 And then I said, well, I was the senior class president the next year, very 00:02:37.553 --> 00:02:39.583 outgoing debate squad, that kind of thing. 00:02:39.583 --> 00:02:41.193 So why don't I become a lawyer? 00:02:41.373 --> 00:02:42.153 That sounds like fun. 00:02:42.623 --> 00:02:46.263 So I took my scholarship, head off to Grand Valley State, 00:02:46.333 --> 00:02:48.103 started taking elective classes. 00:02:48.533 --> 00:02:49.813 You have to take a science elective. 00:02:50.013 --> 00:02:51.413 So I happened to take chemistry. 00:02:52.093 --> 00:02:55.563 Didn't do particularly well, which was kind of a challenge. 00:02:55.563 --> 00:02:57.983 So the next thing you know, I'm taking organic chemistry. 00:02:58.493 --> 00:03:01.003 Again, not doing particularly well. 00:03:01.403 --> 00:03:03.113 Next thing you know, I'm a chemistry major. 00:03:03.568 --> 00:03:08.008 And I'm seeing it kind of as a challenge more than a love for chemistry. 00:03:08.508 --> 00:03:13.768 So, now I'm graduating from a small state school with a degree in chemistry. 00:03:14.258 --> 00:03:14.968 Now what do you do? 00:03:15.238 --> 00:03:19.938 Well, my undergraduate advisor said, Why don't you consider going to 00:03:19.938 --> 00:03:22.138 graduate school and figuring it out? 00:03:22.628 --> 00:03:24.848 Oh, and by the way, they'll pay you to go. 00:03:25.493 --> 00:03:29.383 Next thing you know, I'm off to Duke University studying organic 00:03:29.393 --> 00:03:37.103 chemistry while there, then I kind of had the, um, matrix scene, scenes 00:03:37.103 --> 00:03:40.703 of the movie matrix, where all of a sudden everything made sense to Neo 00:03:40.703 --> 00:03:45.733 and that all the dots all lined up and chemistry became fairly simple. 00:03:46.263 --> 00:03:51.073 I very much understood it and got into chemistry kind of in a strange way. 00:03:51.503 --> 00:03:51.943 Victoria: Yeah. 00:03:51.993 --> 00:03:52.373 alright. 00:03:52.533 --> 00:03:55.163 I'm' just going to interject because people have heard 00:03:55.163 --> 00:03:56.343 me tell this story before. 00:03:56.723 --> 00:04:03.268 I am a chemical engineering major and organic chemistry almost killed me. 00:04:03.278 --> 00:04:08.368 So at no point in time did anything about organic chemistry line up. 00:04:08.698 --> 00:04:12.438 The other pieces, sure, but organic, no way. 00:04:12.848 --> 00:04:15.508 Of course, which is ironic working in the chemical industry then 00:04:15.508 --> 00:04:17.148 for the entirety of my career. 00:04:17.148 --> 00:04:21.758 But as I often like to tell people, like I'm an engineer, I like the blocks 00:04:21.778 --> 00:04:26.108 and the processes and putting it all together, I don't necessarily need the 00:04:26.108 --> 00:04:28.538 molecules, but you, it sounds like. 00:04:28.588 --> 00:04:31.638 love and understood those molecules. 00:04:32.293 --> 00:04:37.553 Frank: I understood the molecules when I got into quantum stereochemistry, 00:04:37.583 --> 00:04:43.113 and it made sense at the molecular level why a Diels Alder reaction would 00:04:43.123 --> 00:04:45.453 be performed and why it would work. 00:04:45.453 --> 00:04:47.943 I'm going, oh, now it makes sense to me. 00:04:48.553 --> 00:04:49.033 Okay, so. 00:04:49.788 --> 00:04:51.878 Now we'll slide into the business world. 00:04:52.058 --> 00:04:55.028 My degree at Duke was physical organic chemistry. 00:04:55.148 --> 00:04:58.408 So kinetics and thermodynamics went to work for Dow chemical. 00:04:58.658 --> 00:05:02.778 I was from Michigan, went back to the mothership of Dow Midland, 00:05:03.238 --> 00:05:04.948 worked in the thermodynamics lab. 00:05:05.608 --> 00:05:09.458 So in that position, you're between the beaker chemist who's invented 00:05:09.458 --> 00:05:12.658 something and the chemical engineer, like yourself, who's designed the plant. 00:05:12.668 --> 00:05:15.988 So we're going to do everything you need from process safety 00:05:15.988 --> 00:05:17.388 to keep things from blowing up. 00:05:17.818 --> 00:05:22.678 However, I still kind of had that leadership outgoing nature. 00:05:23.468 --> 00:05:29.948 And so through very quick evolution Dow Chemical was doing a lot of contract 00:05:29.968 --> 00:05:32.708 manufacturing only through acquisitions. 00:05:32.738 --> 00:05:36.278 So they bought companies that were doing contract manufacturing. 00:05:36.618 --> 00:05:38.278 Some of the chemistry was a little challenging. 00:05:38.918 --> 00:05:42.168 So the next thing you know, I'm supporting contract manufacturing. 00:05:42.633 --> 00:05:47.053 That led to technology transfer at contract manufacturing that eventually 00:05:47.123 --> 00:05:53.113 led to negotiating contract manufacturing that led to being the global work 00:05:53.113 --> 00:05:57.563 process leader at Dow for contract manufacturing, which eventually led to 00:05:58.193 --> 00:06:01.693 category leader at Dow for all of their contract manufacturing procurement. 00:06:02.133 --> 00:06:06.693 So what started as a bench chemist for a little while doing analytical work 00:06:07.313 --> 00:06:13.063 eventually led to the giant global strategies around outside manufacturing. 00:06:13.543 --> 00:06:16.923 And I was much more comfortable in that space than in the lab. 00:06:18.913 --> 00:06:19.273 Victoria: Got it. 00:06:19.493 --> 00:06:20.093 Makes sense. 00:06:20.203 --> 00:06:25.483 So now today , you've got 35 years , of experience in the industry, 00:06:25.483 --> 00:06:27.333 obviously doing a lot of things. 00:06:27.333 --> 00:06:32.173 And of course, working for companies like Dow and Milliken you get to see. 00:06:33.218 --> 00:06:34.168 Great countries. 00:06:34.178 --> 00:06:38.868 You get to work around the world and get a wide variety of experience. 00:06:39.618 --> 00:06:43.818 You've now opted to take this and apply it to South Carolina Chemical. 00:06:43.888 --> 00:06:45.338 So tell us a little bit about that. 00:06:46.463 --> 00:06:50.723 Frank: Okay, so South Carolina Chemical was born out of my consulting business. 00:06:50.813 --> 00:06:54.603 So when I retired from Millikan, I lasted roughly one month. 00:06:55.023 --> 00:06:57.953 And my wife said, uh, yeah, you're going to go back to work and do something 00:06:57.953 --> 00:07:01.273 because You cannot walk up to me one more time and say, you're bored. 00:07:01.653 --> 00:07:06.703 So I immediately started consulting, which was fairly easy because I'd been 00:07:06.703 --> 00:07:08.473 consulting for years in these jobs. 00:07:08.983 --> 00:07:15.863 From out of the consulting, there were some needs of, can you find chemicals? 00:07:15.883 --> 00:07:17.673 Can you source chemicals? 00:07:18.023 --> 00:07:21.843 sOme of my companies I worked with overseas, can you 00:07:21.853 --> 00:07:23.333 help me sell my chemicals? 00:07:23.403 --> 00:07:23.733 Can 00:07:23.803 --> 00:07:24.253 Victoria: Yeah. 00:07:24.283 --> 00:07:27.583 So leaning in really to a lot of your corporate experience 00:07:27.583 --> 00:07:28.953 doing some of those same things. 00:07:28.953 --> 00:07:29.543 Frank: Exactly. 00:07:29.543 --> 00:07:34.063 So interestingly, I've never thrown away a business card my entire career. 00:07:34.773 --> 00:07:37.463 I have thousands of business cards. 00:07:37.853 --> 00:07:42.083 I've kept contacts with everybody and try to maintain really positive relationships. 00:07:42.543 --> 00:07:46.133 So what South Carolina chemical is we find things. 00:07:46.603 --> 00:07:51.063 So when people need oddball materials, I get a phone call. 00:07:51.503 --> 00:07:52.513 There's a force majeure. 00:07:52.913 --> 00:07:56.943 I get a phone call that's led to new product development. 00:07:56.953 --> 00:08:00.173 Frank, can you get, so I do sourcing, uh, for companies that 00:08:00.173 --> 00:08:02.103 have smaller sourcing organizations. 00:08:02.533 --> 00:08:06.093 And from the consulting to the South Carolina Chemical, we very quickly 00:08:06.093 --> 00:08:08.523 figured out how to import, how to manage. 00:08:08.723 --> 00:08:11.523 So the companies will just say, can you just take care of it for me? 00:08:12.843 --> 00:08:13.853 we started bringing that in. 00:08:14.333 --> 00:08:17.323 As I started working with more companies, there's still a lot of 00:08:17.363 --> 00:08:19.793 manufacturer in this world that we, I call them undiscovered. 00:08:20.773 --> 00:08:22.533 They've only sold within their own country. 00:08:22.563 --> 00:08:26.983 They'd never had a distributor but they're solid and I know them and I visited 00:08:26.983 --> 00:08:30.693 them, they're perfectly comfortable saying, Hey, can you rep my stuff? 00:08:31.043 --> 00:08:35.723 So we aren't two years old and we've been kind of astonished 00:08:35.723 --> 00:08:37.203 at the growth that we've had. 00:08:37.903 --> 00:08:38.223 Victoria: Yeah. 00:08:38.343 --> 00:08:43.963 So sourcing and distribution and beyond, I guess is, is contract manufacturing 00:08:43.963 --> 00:08:46.213 part of your value proposition today? 00:08:46.873 --> 00:08:47.593 Frank: Absolutely. 00:08:47.783 --> 00:08:49.633 I work with various companies. 00:08:49.943 --> 00:08:52.873 I need to have this made, right? 00:08:52.953 --> 00:08:55.323 I've got a long Rolodex of. 00:08:55.863 --> 00:08:56.763 Where we can do things. 00:08:56.843 --> 00:09:01.243 I also have contract manufacturers that will say, why can't I get business? 00:09:01.813 --> 00:09:05.393 And so we'll work with them on what's their messaging and 00:09:05.393 --> 00:09:06.693 they're not very discoverable. 00:09:06.983 --> 00:09:10.133 So I do a lot of contract manufacturing, a lot of supply chain design. 00:09:10.893 --> 00:09:16.673 So the supply chain design is how do you compete and win kind of on a global stage? 00:09:17.658 --> 00:09:21.318 You really have to think in terms of, you know, total cost of goods at 00:09:21.318 --> 00:09:23.318 the location, strategic advantages. 00:09:23.648 --> 00:09:27.278 Um, and there's a lot of things that go into that full design. 00:09:27.528 --> 00:09:29.108 So it all comes full circle. 00:09:29.408 --> 00:09:30.708 We tend to say yes to everything. 00:09:30.708 --> 00:09:34.248 I've got a strong team and took on a partner for my consulting business. 00:09:34.278 --> 00:09:35.028 And so, yeah, 00:09:35.678 --> 00:09:36.418 Victoria: That's very cool. 00:09:36.638 --> 00:09:40.248 So, you know, one of the things we, we talked about, I guess, before 00:09:40.258 --> 00:09:45.048 the podcast here is just some of the opportunities and challenges that the 00:09:45.168 --> 00:09:47.218 chemical industry is facing today. 00:09:47.218 --> 00:09:49.368 What do you see from where you sit? 00:09:50.463 --> 00:09:58.023 Frank: Well, the opportunities are largely around sustainability recycle, renewable. 00:09:58.533 --> 00:10:01.613 Now, the opportunities have a longer time horizon. 00:10:02.103 --> 00:10:04.533 It's not going to happen overnight. 00:10:05.113 --> 00:10:07.653 Mathematically, it can't happen overnight. 00:10:08.073 --> 00:10:09.783 It's just the world's not ready. 00:10:09.783 --> 00:10:12.763 The costs aren't ready, but that's where the opportunities are. 00:10:12.813 --> 00:10:16.423 And there's always opportunities for, for better and more clever. 00:10:17.018 --> 00:10:17.348 Right. 00:10:17.358 --> 00:10:18.608 There's always a better reaction. 00:10:18.618 --> 00:10:21.068 There's always a product that's got something, I wish 00:10:21.068 --> 00:10:21.768 I would have thought of that. 00:10:22.288 --> 00:10:25.808 And there's some neat things that come out every year from creative companies. 00:10:26.268 --> 00:10:29.378 So the opportunities still kind of exist. 00:10:29.378 --> 00:10:31.528 Okay. 00:10:31.528 --> 00:10:36.048 The challenges I see it is world of business works best when you 00:10:36.058 --> 00:10:37.788 have very stable business rules. 00:10:38.828 --> 00:10:40.838 I can work in this sandbox. 00:10:40.888 --> 00:10:44.048 I can manage this because I know what's going to happen. 00:10:44.058 --> 00:10:44.078 Yeah. 00:10:45.243 --> 00:10:47.753 If you get dramatic overnight changes 00:10:48.383 --> 00:10:53.953 and some of the more dramatic ones that came in the tariff 301 overnight, 25 00:10:53.953 --> 00:10:56.433 percent duties on imported chemicals. 00:10:56.868 --> 00:10:57.088 Victoria: Yeah. 00:10:57.358 --> 00:10:58.038 That's significant 00:10:58.038 --> 00:10:58.148 Frank: Wow. 00:10:58.318 --> 00:10:59.473 That, that was huge. 00:10:59.513 --> 00:11:00.793 That was, that was an overnight. 00:11:00.813 --> 00:11:02.993 That was a game changer and immediate rules. 00:11:03.458 --> 00:11:03.768 Victoria: Yeah. 00:11:04.183 --> 00:11:05.293 Frank: It can still happen. 00:11:05.293 --> 00:11:12.233 I mean, just this recently, the administration doubled the tariffs on 00:11:12.833 --> 00:11:15.273 electric vehicles coming in overnight. 00:11:15.843 --> 00:11:20.753 So the challenges are trying to build a business where 00:11:20.773 --> 00:11:22.103 the rules can change on you. 00:11:23.143 --> 00:11:24.843 And there's some watch outs. 00:11:25.373 --> 00:11:30.633 I think the U S market needs to learn from the old biodiesel days. 00:11:31.178 --> 00:11:37.338 To support biodiesel and become energy independent to some extent, the U. 00:11:37.338 --> 00:11:37.488 S. 00:11:37.488 --> 00:11:41.708 government was subsidizing biodiesel to the tune of a dollar a gallon. 00:11:42.498 --> 00:11:42.798 Victoria: Yeah. 00:11:42.798 --> 00:11:46.148 Frank: A dollar a gallon subsidy, you could do a lot of biodiesel. 00:11:46.208 --> 00:11:49.098 And there were a lot of biodiesel plants popping up across the U. 00:11:49.098 --> 00:11:49.428 S. 00:11:50.288 --> 00:11:51.638 Next administration came in. 00:11:52.418 --> 00:11:53.838 Yeah, we don't want to give them that dollar. 00:11:54.518 --> 00:11:57.348 Overnight, they went bankrupt and disappeared. 00:11:58.158 --> 00:12:01.728 If you're building a business case on something that's not 00:12:01.758 --> 00:12:05.888 fundamental to earth, fire, and water 00:12:06.528 --> 00:12:06.818 Victoria: Hmm. 00:12:06.848 --> 00:12:10.548 Frank: And a true customer, there's some risk. 00:12:10.698 --> 00:12:12.848 So that's one of the challenges I see. 00:12:13.408 --> 00:12:13.698 Victoria: Yeah. 00:12:14.438 --> 00:12:14.698 Well, 00:12:14.698 --> 00:12:18.378 and I know certainly a lot of, uh, companies when we think about, 00:12:19.423 --> 00:12:24.243 Sustainability technologies and investments that support greenhouse 00:12:24.243 --> 00:12:28.563 gas reduction, carbon capture, for instance, would be a great one. 00:12:28.753 --> 00:12:29.393 You know, a lot of it. 00:12:29.393 --> 00:12:32.143 And I talked to companies that are like, well, what does the IRA mean? 00:12:32.203 --> 00:12:34.113 And what are the tax advantages that come in? 00:12:34.403 --> 00:12:38.243 And I'm, I'm with you on the fact that to a certain degree, there has 00:12:38.243 --> 00:12:42.033 to still be business fundamentals, because if your only business 00:12:42.033 --> 00:12:45.308 fundamental is a tax incentive. 00:12:45.718 --> 00:12:48.768 Well, then you need to be able to turn it on and turn it off pretty quickly. 00:12:48.818 --> 00:12:52.818 And so it's hard to make a significant investment when the 00:12:52.818 --> 00:12:56.568 tax advantage maybe even goes away before you can even start up, right? 00:12:56.568 --> 00:12:57.308 Cause let's be honest. 00:12:57.318 --> 00:13:05.918 Some of these big investments take three, four, five, 10 years to start up, they are 00:13:05.918 --> 00:13:09.278 not insignificant, , and it's certainly a challenge, but it's also somehow 00:13:09.448 --> 00:13:15.908 striking this balance across the globe because obviously there's a lot of, um, 00:13:16.638 --> 00:13:19.858 uh, different behaviors and different rules that are taking place depending 00:13:19.858 --> 00:13:21.748 on what region you're working in. 00:13:22.408 --> 00:13:24.288 So, so maybe let's talk about that a little bit. 00:13:24.298 --> 00:13:27.268 So you've talked about the importance of global competitiveness. 00:13:27.738 --> 00:13:28.948 And, and really we're. 00:13:29.518 --> 00:13:31.398 In many ways, we're in a global market. 00:13:31.488 --> 00:13:35.548 I would argue that that global markets are shifting a bit and we can get 00:13:35.548 --> 00:13:40.138 to that a little bit, but how does a company really know that it's 00:13:40.148 --> 00:13:41.738 competitive in a global marketplace? 00:13:41.738 --> 00:13:42.828 What's important about that? 00:13:44.138 --> 00:13:46.158 Frank: The, that's a very good question. 00:13:46.728 --> 00:13:48.588 , and we get asked that a lot, right? 00:13:48.628 --> 00:13:51.948 You know, because companies only know what they know. 00:13:52.608 --> 00:13:54.618 They only know what they've been exposed to, especially 00:13:54.618 --> 00:13:55.938 small and mid sized companies. 00:13:56.278 --> 00:14:00.408 They can sometimes use consultants for various things, but I 00:14:00.408 --> 00:14:01.738 call it looking in the mirror. 00:14:02.188 --> 00:14:05.758 And we'll be talking about this conference coming up in Savannah at 00:14:05.768 --> 00:14:09.268 chemicals, America for a company to look in the mirror, you have to sit 00:14:09.268 --> 00:14:10.688 there and say, what am I good at? 00:14:11.428 --> 00:14:11.678 Right? 00:14:11.678 --> 00:14:13.778 So, and why does my customer buy from me? 00:14:14.308 --> 00:14:19.808 And it's some companies have a really hard time Taking that hard look. 00:14:19.888 --> 00:14:21.978 So give an example and kind of walk you through it. 00:14:22.348 --> 00:14:25.538 So you have a customer who's buying a product. 00:14:26.038 --> 00:14:28.188 Are you the only one that can supply that product? 00:14:28.188 --> 00:14:28.654 All right. 00:14:28.654 --> 00:14:34.518 Do you have a patent, some competitive advantage, some IP, if your patent is 00:14:34.518 --> 00:14:38.678 going to run out, if other people can do it and that's your bread and butter, 00:14:39.038 --> 00:14:42.118 take a hard look and say, am I winning? 00:14:42.118 --> 00:14:45.318 And can I win because I'm better on raw material sourcing? 00:14:45.883 --> 00:14:48.323 I'm vertical when others aren't. 00:14:48.923 --> 00:14:52.763 If you have no true competitive advantage on raw materials, do I have a 00:14:52.763 --> 00:14:54.323 competitive advantage on manufacturing? 00:14:55.118 --> 00:14:56.683 Do have a fully depreciated plant? 00:14:57.033 --> 00:14:58.563 Are my operations better? 00:14:58.763 --> 00:15:00.123 Do I have better labor costs? 00:15:00.353 --> 00:15:04.933 Okay, so now you can say, okay, so if my raw materials are okay, my 00:15:05.083 --> 00:15:08.643 customer's okay, my manufacturing is okay, how's my supply chain? 00:15:09.203 --> 00:15:09.583 Okay. 00:15:10.063 --> 00:15:12.763 Am I have a better service model? 00:15:12.883 --> 00:15:14.063 Am I delivering better? 00:15:14.393 --> 00:15:16.313 Am I cost of delivery better? 00:15:16.313 --> 00:15:17.663 Do I have a good location? 00:15:18.333 --> 00:15:23.483 When you, most companies aren't good at everything, but you better have a strong 00:15:23.483 --> 00:15:25.453 competitive advantage in one thing. 00:15:26.203 --> 00:15:29.763 And one of the things that used to be, well, I'll still do it. 00:15:29.773 --> 00:15:30.873 And I've trained people to do it. 00:15:31.223 --> 00:15:33.163 When I go to a trade show, you're busy. 00:15:33.698 --> 00:15:38.398 You're meeting with somebody at a booth and I'll tell the people 00:15:38.398 --> 00:15:42.068 in the booth, I'll say, I want you to have this conversation. 00:15:42.108 --> 00:15:49.478 When I'm walking away, you say, if Frank buys this from anybody else in 00:15:49.478 --> 00:15:51.368 the planet, he's making a mistake. 00:15:52.298 --> 00:15:52.508 Victoria: Hmm. 00:15:52.648 --> 00:15:53.948 Frank: Tell me what this is. 00:15:54.868 --> 00:15:59.208 If you can't answer that question, you've got some problems. 00:16:00.218 --> 00:16:03.098 And some of the answers I get is we're good at everything. 00:16:03.978 --> 00:16:04.258 No. 00:16:04.858 --> 00:16:08.548 No, nobody's going to everything or they would have the dominant 00:16:08.548 --> 00:16:09.708 position in everything. 00:16:09.718 --> 00:16:09.958 So 00:16:10.438 --> 00:16:10.878 Victoria: Well, 00:16:10.878 --> 00:16:15.498 and then the other one that's a very popular answer is people do 00:16:15.498 --> 00:16:18.208 business with us because of the strength of our relationships. 00:16:18.988 --> 00:16:21.878 Well, everybody has strong relationships. 00:16:21.908 --> 00:16:24.898 You just don't have strong relationships with everyone. 00:16:25.268 --> 00:16:26.908 And it's beyond that. 00:16:26.998 --> 00:16:28.728 It's not just relationship. 00:16:28.738 --> 00:16:33.438 There's something else going on that is driving that and you have to really 00:16:33.458 --> 00:16:36.978 uncover it because it's, if it's just quality of relationship, does 00:16:36.978 --> 00:16:41.288 that mean that when that salesperson leaves the, the business goes away? 00:16:41.848 --> 00:16:43.478 , that's pretty scary and that 00:16:43.488 --> 00:16:44.808 happens in some markets. 00:16:45.458 --> 00:16:47.418 Frank: this is a, it is a relationship business. 00:16:47.698 --> 00:16:51.988 People can really buy into relationships when the product that they're purchasing 00:16:51.998 --> 00:16:59.393 for use is semi immaterial to the total cost of the good being sold. 00:16:59.868 --> 00:17:02.308 We can example of agricultural chemicals. 00:17:02.748 --> 00:17:04.238 The money is in the active ingredient. 00:17:04.938 --> 00:17:08.178 You can have a relationship for their surfactants and the carriers. 00:17:08.798 --> 00:17:10.758 It's a small percentage, right? 00:17:10.798 --> 00:17:11.958 It's still dollars. 00:17:11.958 --> 00:17:13.038 You still want to manage it. 00:17:13.048 --> 00:17:15.758 When you look at the big picture, all your emphasis on one thing, 00:17:16.303 --> 00:17:18.553 Relationships really make a difference. 00:17:18.753 --> 00:17:23.953 Um, then, you know, We'll, we'll touch on a little bit more of that coming up. 00:17:23.963 --> 00:17:24.313 So 00:17:24.428 --> 00:17:24.788 Victoria: Yeah. 00:17:24.838 --> 00:17:25.558 That sounds great. 00:17:25.828 --> 00:17:29.758 One of the things we talked about being globally competitive and certainly we're 00:17:29.848 --> 00:17:33.698 seeing really over the last several years, and I think everybody thought 00:17:33.698 --> 00:17:37.538 it was going to temper and simmer down and it hasn't, but we've got some 00:17:37.548 --> 00:17:39.768 significant supply chain challenges. 00:17:40.078 --> 00:17:41.858 from a variety of places, right? 00:17:41.908 --> 00:17:45.378 Russia Ukraine war has caused some, some challenges. 00:17:45.778 --> 00:17:49.788 Uh, what's going on in the Middle East has caused some significant challenges 00:17:49.808 --> 00:17:54.768 and even just this relationship between, I would say the U S and China, but China 00:17:54.768 --> 00:17:56.568 and India, China, and other places, right? 00:17:56.568 --> 00:18:00.258 So we've got both supply chain geopolitics and other things going on. 00:18:00.558 --> 00:18:00.938 And we're. 00:18:01.098 --> 00:18:06.808 I think we're really seeing a focus on regional businesses and maybe shifting, 00:18:06.808 --> 00:18:10.848 you know, somebody said, at one point said, Oh, the supply chains are shifting 00:18:10.848 --> 00:18:14.328 from East West to North South, right? 00:18:14.578 --> 00:18:16.978 And, and maybe that's true. 00:18:16.978 --> 00:18:18.258 Maybe that's not true. 00:18:18.588 --> 00:18:23.758 But do you see that, do you see us shifting to more of a regional business 00:18:23.778 --> 00:18:26.118 or strengthened regional businesses? 00:18:26.308 --> 00:18:27.148 And why or why not? 00:18:28.423 --> 00:18:31.593 Frank: I see the desire. 00:18:32.303 --> 00:18:36.093 I hear the words I've seen it at the board level. 00:18:36.523 --> 00:18:38.493 I've seen it added into strategies. 00:18:39.153 --> 00:18:42.523 A few years ago I was at a conference, largely dictated 00:18:42.543 --> 00:18:44.243 on contract manufacturing. 00:18:44.863 --> 00:18:45.943 And everyone's excited. 00:18:46.113 --> 00:18:52.513 We're going to reshore after COVID, the exposure of supply chains and the 00:18:52.523 --> 00:18:55.843 dependence on foreign countries, what's all going to come back in next year, the 00:18:55.843 --> 00:18:58.283 conference, it was much more tempered. 00:18:58.823 --> 00:19:00.213 They expected it to come. 00:19:01.503 --> 00:19:02.843 It didn't fully come. 00:19:02.843 --> 00:19:05.373 The projects they had started were kind of getting canceled. 00:19:06.023 --> 00:19:07.203 And I'll kind of come to the point. 00:19:07.203 --> 00:19:11.173 If you look at a long term, well, we'll take a look at the stock market. 00:19:11.728 --> 00:19:17.638 Over the course of forever, it always goes up, but it always comes, it's up and down. 00:19:18.178 --> 00:19:23.678 So the chemical industry, globalization, there's a thermodynamic 00:19:24.398 --> 00:19:25.588 point it's going to come back to. 00:19:25.958 --> 00:19:29.468 So I'll use example of the 80s and 90s. 00:19:29.828 --> 00:19:34.968 The, when brick was a strategy, Brazil, Russia, India, China. 00:19:35.828 --> 00:19:39.728 Brazil never really landed because they had, you know, some business 00:19:39.778 --> 00:19:41.968 tariffy things and Russia was Russia. 00:19:42.498 --> 00:19:45.598 India had infrastructure, but China was wide open for business. 00:19:46.518 --> 00:19:50.068 When the Western companies first went to China, the first ones 00:19:50.068 --> 00:19:52.818 that went, huge cost advantages. 00:19:53.578 --> 00:19:54.078 There were, 00:19:54.568 --> 00:19:54.838 right? 00:19:55.198 --> 00:19:59.658 So you started, rationalizing some plants, moving things to China. 00:20:00.218 --> 00:20:02.148 Companies that didn't embrace that strategy. 00:20:03.668 --> 00:20:06.598 were losing out in the market because they were just cost disadvantaged. 00:20:06.968 --> 00:20:09.988 So like it or not, everybody started moving that way. 00:20:10.668 --> 00:20:12.678 So this was the push. 00:20:13.488 --> 00:20:18.198 You had purchasing departments that are being called year over year, 00:20:18.198 --> 00:20:21.208 your goals, five to 10 percent cost reductions year over year. 00:20:23.818 --> 00:20:28.448 When you had this pull back to the West, it made perfect sense. 00:20:28.808 --> 00:20:30.118 For the, for a lot of reasons. 00:20:30.118 --> 00:20:30.468 Yeah. 00:20:31.118 --> 00:20:34.058 However, China was still open for business. 00:20:34.508 --> 00:20:35.948 China is kind of in a recession. 00:20:36.788 --> 00:20:38.528 China really wants to sell. 00:20:38.558 --> 00:20:40.448 They really, really want to manufacture. 00:20:41.018 --> 00:20:46.148 They're trying really hard as best they can to maintain whatever share they 00:20:46.153 --> 00:20:48.668 can get for that purchasing manager. 00:20:49.178 --> 00:20:53.538 Even though strategically he was told the board said, go do it. 00:20:54.008 --> 00:20:55.718 When it comes to dollars and cents. 00:20:56.478 --> 00:20:59.178 Can the business afford to near shore? 00:21:00.648 --> 00:21:05.778 Some cases from supply chain that forcing the reevaluation was brilliant 00:21:05.788 --> 00:21:11.108 and they should have been here all along for others You're kind of going your 00:21:11.118 --> 00:21:17.038 math's gonna fail people have short memories Managers and executives have 00:21:17.038 --> 00:21:18.948 short memories at the end of the day. 00:21:18.948 --> 00:21:22.848 They're gonna look at that cost of doing business and say I 00:21:22.848 --> 00:21:24.198 Need to have more cost downs. 00:21:24.548 --> 00:21:28.723 Are they really going to stay here some will But 00:21:28.723 --> 00:21:33.173 There's still, a pretty heavy gravitational pull back to low 00:21:33.183 --> 00:21:36.523 cost countries that have some high enough quality product. 00:21:37.953 --> 00:21:38.213 Victoria: Yeah. 00:21:38.253 --> 00:21:39.093 It's a real dilemma. 00:21:39.133 --> 00:21:41.723 I mean, I think it's a it's definitely a dilemma and of course this is 00:21:41.723 --> 00:21:45.113 obviously one of the things that some of these tax programs are 00:21:45.113 --> 00:21:47.883 supposed to help adjust for, right? 00:21:47.893 --> 00:21:51.203 To encourage more investment and business in the U S because 00:21:51.203 --> 00:21:53.023 I think There is always a risk. 00:21:53.033 --> 00:21:57.443 I see the risk that when you're chasing the low cost, uh, region, 00:21:57.483 --> 00:22:01.453 it, It may not be actually healthy on a long term basis, right? 00:22:01.453 --> 00:22:05.373 So you're chasing today's pennies and sacrificing tomorrow's future. 00:22:05.383 --> 00:22:08.383 And, and, we've seen that happen in a lot of industries. 00:22:08.383 --> 00:22:10.713 We've seen it happen in the chemical industry. 00:22:10.763 --> 00:22:16.233 I think what's going on in Europe is, um, sad, right? 00:22:16.423 --> 00:22:17.493 I think it's sad. 00:22:17.493 --> 00:22:21.523 I think a lot of this is policy driven that ends up actually having 00:22:21.523 --> 00:22:25.493 a huge significant impact, not just on the chemical industry, but 00:22:25.493 --> 00:22:28.663 actually on the people in Europe because they're losing employment, 00:22:28.703 --> 00:22:30.243 they're losing economics, et cetera. 00:22:30.263 --> 00:22:35.313 So there's a lot of things that go on and you know, it, it even ties into the 00:22:35.313 --> 00:22:39.003 conversations that we sometimes have around sustainability and green products 00:22:39.003 --> 00:22:42.723 and, Oh, everybody wants to, want some more sustainable, greener product. 00:22:42.803 --> 00:22:44.853 Well, sure. 00:22:45.793 --> 00:22:47.593 Until it costs a lot more money. 00:22:47.928 --> 00:22:54.038 Because let's be honest for, for many products, for much of the world. 00:22:54.778 --> 00:22:56.338 Cheap and cheerful is the way to go. 00:22:56.928 --> 00:22:59.548 , and that's what they can afford and that's what they see. 00:22:59.578 --> 00:23:05.238 And it may have a pretty green label on it that denotes sustainable 00:23:05.238 --> 00:23:06.518 or plant based or whatever. 00:23:06.758 --> 00:23:09.938 Well, that's great, but I may not be able to afford to do that. 00:23:09.988 --> 00:23:14.448 Or I can only afford to do that on certain products, but not all products. 00:23:14.688 --> 00:23:19.738 So I think this is something that the chemical industry and its customers. 00:23:20.078 --> 00:23:23.368 If I think about all the consumer products, companies, big and small, 00:23:23.368 --> 00:23:28.488 whether it be automotive or, dishwashing, um, I think this is something that 00:23:28.488 --> 00:23:31.138 we're struggling with together. 00:23:31.888 --> 00:23:33.928 Not sure where that resolution comes out. 00:23:33.928 --> 00:23:37.378 Cause we're still driving down some paths, but it will, it will come to bear. 00:23:38.848 --> 00:23:43.938 So, so let's just talk about, you know, you've shifted from a big 00:23:43.948 --> 00:23:46.928 global companies into a startup. 00:23:47.488 --> 00:23:53.448 So what has surprised you about that in terms of leading, leading 00:23:53.448 --> 00:23:57.978 these big enterprises to now leading a small enterprise? 00:23:59.093 --> 00:24:02.703 Frank: I think what surprised me the most was when you're your own boss 00:24:02.983 --> 00:24:06.783 and your responsibility for you, your employees, your contractors. 00:24:07.193 --> 00:24:10.903 I was expecting to have this huge amount of stress, right? 00:24:10.903 --> 00:24:12.873 This was going to be much more stressful. 00:24:12.913 --> 00:24:17.208 What I found was it was the most freeing thing I've ever done. 00:24:17.758 --> 00:24:22.288 , I've always been on my responsibilities, maybe too much. 00:24:22.628 --> 00:24:25.308 Um, but at the big companies, you'd wake up in the middle of 00:24:25.338 --> 00:24:26.598 night having a pit in your stomach. 00:24:26.638 --> 00:24:31.518 You owe the company this, you have a deadline, you need to have that. 00:24:31.518 --> 00:24:32.648 You understand the big picture. 00:24:32.648 --> 00:24:33.908 You've got a big negotiation. 00:24:34.208 --> 00:24:39.553 So in the back of your mind, you always had work, a type of 00:24:39.553 --> 00:24:41.803 work, but it was never your work. 00:24:42.083 --> 00:24:45.183 Even as much as you bought in, it was always for somebody else. 00:24:45.743 --> 00:24:49.333 When I started my own, it's, we basically have one general rule 00:24:49.353 --> 00:24:50.313 for anybody who works with me. 00:24:50.333 --> 00:24:50.973 We started every meeting. 00:24:50.983 --> 00:24:51.813 Are we still having fun? 00:24:52.603 --> 00:24:52.723 Victoria: Hmm. 00:24:52.723 --> 00:24:54.203 Frank: If we're not having fun, we're going to just, 00:24:54.283 --> 00:24:55.203 we're going to shut it down. 00:24:55.553 --> 00:24:58.523 So we choose to do what we want to do to have fun. 00:24:58.713 --> 00:25:01.253 It is very low stress. 00:25:01.333 --> 00:25:02.513 It is very freeing. 00:25:03.018 --> 00:25:03.948 We laugh a lot. 00:25:03.988 --> 00:25:07.188 We will say yes to work with people that we want to work with. 00:25:07.698 --> 00:25:11.818 And if we go, I don't think they're, they fit in our genre, we don't do it. 00:25:12.208 --> 00:25:14.948 So I think that the biggest difference is just kind of going 00:25:15.348 --> 00:25:17.418 yeah, it's, it's, it's freeing. 00:25:17.448 --> 00:25:18.068 It's kind of fun. 00:25:18.158 --> 00:25:18.718 Victoria: Yeah. 00:25:18.738 --> 00:25:21.778 I will say, I will agree that point you made about choosing 00:25:21.788 --> 00:25:22.938 who you want to work with. 00:25:23.298 --> 00:25:24.218 It is liberating. 00:25:24.218 --> 00:25:24.258 Yeah. 00:25:24.773 --> 00:25:25.183 Right? 00:25:25.233 --> 00:25:30.993 Like sometimes, I mean, you know, this and I throw this and sometimes you're 00:25:30.993 --> 00:25:33.463 like, yep, their money isn't good here. 00:25:33.813 --> 00:25:34.983 And you can say that. 00:25:34.983 --> 00:25:35.243 Frank: Exactly. 00:25:35.313 --> 00:25:38.583 Victoria: You have the liberty of saying that that's not somebody you want to spend 00:25:38.583 --> 00:25:44.593 time with or your business values and personal values don't meet up very well. 00:25:44.643 --> 00:25:45.123 etc., 00:25:45.533 --> 00:25:49.083 Final question here, leadership lessons. 00:25:49.493 --> 00:25:52.393 So what characteristics. 00:25:53.468 --> 00:25:58.598 Have driven your success or the success of leaders around you? 00:25:59.158 --> 00:26:00.258 Frank: It's a little bit different. 00:26:00.258 --> 00:26:00.998 It's kind of personal. 00:26:01.008 --> 00:26:02.418 So everybody has. 00:26:03.603 --> 00:26:04.213 Who they are. 00:26:04.523 --> 00:26:07.213 Um, I've been accused of liking everybody. 00:26:07.213 --> 00:26:11.973 I would literally, we were having a meeting and you know, a salesman came 00:26:11.973 --> 00:26:16.753 in who, who might've come across a little terse and annoying and Oh, I 00:26:16.753 --> 00:26:18.603 can't, you know, I can't stand that guy. 00:26:18.613 --> 00:26:19.783 I said, I like him. 00:26:19.863 --> 00:26:23.383 And they said, your, your opinion is no good here because you like everybody. 00:26:23.763 --> 00:26:28.713 Um, I think the key thing that's been useful for me and I recommend 00:26:28.713 --> 00:26:31.153 for everybody is empathy. 00:26:31.833 --> 00:26:37.363 No matter who's working, who you're working with, who you're working for, take 00:26:37.363 --> 00:26:43.253 the time to understand as best you can why they may be acting the way they're 00:26:43.253 --> 00:26:49.993 acting, why they make the decisions they make and grant them graces and, you know, 00:26:50.123 --> 00:26:53.813 allow them to just kind of say, okay, I don't have to agree, but I understand. 00:26:54.373 --> 00:26:59.053 Negotiations critical to understanding the person sitting across from you 00:26:59.733 --> 00:27:02.733 is not your villain or your opponent. 00:27:02.793 --> 00:27:05.223 They're just trying to get the best deal they can for their company. 00:27:05.823 --> 00:27:09.553 So the idea of understanding your people, and then the key thing that 00:27:09.553 --> 00:27:13.043 worked for me, and I've been reasonably successful as a people manager, I 00:27:13.043 --> 00:27:18.903 believe is the, the, the DNI catchphrase bring your whole self to work. 00:27:19.363 --> 00:27:22.183 When people come to work, They bring stuff. 00:27:22.303 --> 00:27:23.713 They've got personal challenges. 00:27:23.713 --> 00:27:30.213 They've got kids problems with boyfriends or spouses, and you can't look them in the 00:27:30.213 --> 00:27:32.943 eye and say, no, I don't bring that here. 00:27:33.763 --> 00:27:35.293 If you work with them to kind of go. 00:27:35.883 --> 00:27:36.683 I understand. 00:27:36.743 --> 00:27:37.343 I'm listening. 00:27:37.373 --> 00:27:37.903 I believe you. 00:27:37.943 --> 00:27:38.603 I trust you. 00:27:38.633 --> 00:27:39.243 I love you. 00:27:39.723 --> 00:27:40.653 It makes a big difference. 00:27:40.893 --> 00:27:43.043 It makes a huge difference in that trust factor. 00:27:43.043 --> 00:27:46.163 When you show support for somebody, when they're down, they'll be 00:27:46.163 --> 00:27:47.263 there the rest of the time. 00:27:47.763 --> 00:27:53.013 So from the management style, um, I tend to be very personal, tend to 00:27:53.013 --> 00:27:58.823 be involved the, from the diversity perspective, I have very diverse teams. 00:27:58.903 --> 00:27:59.473 I. 00:28:00.158 --> 00:28:03.438 I have always pride in myself, not just diversity of ethnicity 00:28:03.438 --> 00:28:05.578 or race or gender; thought. 00:28:06.188 --> 00:28:11.898 So when I had contract manufacturing that Dow chemical, so I had 15 direct 00:28:11.898 --> 00:28:17.498 reports, seven of them were not chemistry or chemical engineers, but 00:28:17.498 --> 00:28:21.708 they, what they brought and how they brought to the services, completely 00:28:21.708 --> 00:28:25.048 different approach, incredibly valuable. 00:28:25.488 --> 00:28:26.668 The team that I have now. 00:28:27.298 --> 00:28:30.918 We are as eclectic a mix as you're ever going to see, but boy, they 00:28:30.918 --> 00:28:35.878 all understand exactly who they are, why they're there, and how they fit 00:28:35.878 --> 00:28:37.448 in the cog, and that makes it fun. 00:28:38.128 --> 00:28:38.718 Victoria: That's awesome. 00:28:38.938 --> 00:28:42.528 Frank: I'm a big get diversity wherever you can, and you're good. 00:28:43.168 --> 00:28:50.043 Um, And I guess if I look for advice to anybody in their position, how to 00:28:50.053 --> 00:28:55.743 get ahead and future leaders, whatever job you're given, you have to do 00:28:55.743 --> 00:28:58.103 that job to the best of your ability. 00:28:58.863 --> 00:29:00.863 It's okay to ask a lot of why's. 00:29:01.483 --> 00:29:01.513 Okay. 00:29:01.543 --> 00:29:08.193 Why did this come into my inbox and who's my, who's the product of my work product? 00:29:08.203 --> 00:29:09.003 Who's my customer? 00:29:09.243 --> 00:29:10.003 Who's taking it? 00:29:10.913 --> 00:29:12.413 So you start your first step. 00:29:12.643 --> 00:29:13.823 Why do I have it? 00:29:14.453 --> 00:29:15.613 Where's it going? 00:29:16.033 --> 00:29:17.303 Then keep asking questions. 00:29:17.893 --> 00:29:19.803 Why did that person have that? 00:29:20.523 --> 00:29:24.073 Eventually you will have a full vision of 00:29:24.893 --> 00:29:29.533 every request for an order and every customer fulfillment 00:29:29.573 --> 00:29:30.803 and the entire supply chain. 00:29:31.593 --> 00:29:34.763 When you understand where you fit in the world, it makes a lot 00:29:34.763 --> 00:29:38.963 better and you can impact things and you can look for other careers. 00:29:39.563 --> 00:29:43.943 If you just put your head down and never ask why I'm doing what I'm doing, it's 00:29:43.943 --> 00:29:46.223 not very satisfying and it's limiting. 00:29:46.833 --> 00:29:47.163 So. 00:29:47.688 --> 00:29:51.338 Look and ask and occasionally raise 00:29:54.949 --> 00:29:56.729 voiceover: We've come to the end of today's podcast. 00:29:57.139 --> 00:29:59.689 We hope you enjoyed your time with us and want to learn more. 00:30:00.098 --> 00:30:02.358 Simply visit TheChemicalShow. 00:30:02.368 --> 00:30:05.118 com for additional information and helpful resources. 00:30:05.808 --> 00:30:09.858 Join us again next time here on The Chemical Show with Victoria Meyer. 00:30:15.658 --> 00:30:18.818 Frank: your hand and go from your perspective. 00:30:18.818 --> 00:30:21.558 You think this is great down here in the trenches? 00:30:22.718 --> 00:30:23.578 It's not going to make it 00:30:23.648 --> 00:30:23.968 Victoria: Yeah, 00:30:25.388 --> 00:30:27.178 Frank: and be loud and kill it early. 00:30:27.248 --> 00:30:27.598 So 00:30:28.618 --> 00:30:28.948 Victoria: It's great. 00:30:29.108 --> 00:30:29.588 Well, great. 00:30:30.068 --> 00:30:30.778 Thank you, Frank. 00:30:30.778 --> 00:30:32.188 This has been a great conversation. 00:30:32.188 --> 00:30:33.068 I've really enjoyed it. 00:30:34.848 --> 00:30:35.258 Frank: thank you. 00:30:35.268 --> 00:30:38.588 Thanks for having me on Victoria and look to speak to you again soon. 00:30:39.048 --> 00:30:39.608 Victoria: Absolutely. 00:30:39.608 --> 00:30:41.188 And thank you everyone for listening. 00:30:41.198 --> 00:30:43.848 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:30:43.848 --> 00:30:45.718 talk with you again soon. 00:30:49.044 --> 00:30:50.824 voiceover: We've come to the end of today's podcast. 00:30:51.234 --> 00:30:53.784 We hope you enjoyed your time with us and want to learn more. 00:30:54.193 --> 00:30:56.453 Simply visit TheChemicalShow. 00:30:56.463 --> 00:30:59.213 com for additional information and helpful resources. 00:30:59.903 --> 00:31:03.953 Join us again next time here on The Chemical Show with Victoria Meyer.