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This file was generated by Descript 

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Sam: Hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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I'm Joe Loh.

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Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Joe: Today on the show, what do we
want to pass on to our children?

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This topic came up because the
other week I gave a copy of The

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Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle,
or Tolle as they say everywhere

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else in the world, to my daughter.

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And to my surprise,
she started reading it.

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And I was like, oh my god, my 14 year
old daughter is reading a book that I

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gave her and getting something out of it.

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And I was like, it made me think, like,
what's my priorities, if, if, if I am

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going to have some influence, and up
until that point I figured I was just not,

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what's, you know, what's my influence?

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My father had handed me a copy of
On the Road at about 15, 16 when

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I was in my first deep depression.

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that really influenced me a lot.

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So.

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And then, yeah, just more
broadly, like, what do we want

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to pass on to our, our children?

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I don't know, like, you know, in
their, in their lives, in, I guess,

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by the time we die, but mostly,
I guess, by the time they're 21.

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You know, as a framing
of the, of the topic.

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yeah, I don't know, over to you
guys, you're both parents, so.

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Sam: We're all just about past the, show
me the child at seven, all that, I've

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got still a couple of years on that,
with one, and another's already well

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past seven, and all, both of you, well
past seven, with your, with your kids,

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so I was, I was thinking about the on the
road thing and your dad giving you that,

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and I wanted to ask more specifically,
because you've mentioned this before,

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what did you, What did you get from that?

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And what was your father
trying to transmit?

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Joe: depression in six at 16
what's in that book for anyone

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who picks it up If you can look
past the outdated sexism of it.

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Yeah, is this incredible lust for life?

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Yes, this incredible sense of adventure
this sense that you might have no

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money But you've got the freedom to
walk to the edge of the city and just

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start hitchhiking and you can get to
the other side of a country and you

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can go on adventures and none of it is
dependent on, yeah, material, anything.

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It's just a sense of adventure and,
and in that book is the most, it's

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still my favorite book to this day,
the most extraordinary, capturing

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of, What's incredible about human
life, I think, and the sense of fun

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and excitement of being a young man.

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So I think it helped lift
me out of my depression.

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So yeah.

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Ali: That's such a gift.

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That's really a gift.

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Yeah.

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That your dad was able to give you.

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Sam: And, and yeah, it sounds like
it was a good choice and do you

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think that's what he was getting at?

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With the

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Joe: Don't know.

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I mean, maybe it was like me.

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I handed a copy of The
Power of Now to Scarlett.

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I didn't expect her to read it.

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Maybe she just handed me this
book and thought it might help.

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Sam: So you were quite convinced
she wouldn't pick it up at all?

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Joe: Yeah, I don't know.

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Do kids read books?

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I don't see much sign of it.

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But yeah, what about you, Ali?

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Ali: So, I mean, I'm just trying to think
of my son So like Spotify wrapped has

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recently just, you know, happened and
which is like the highlight of our year

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because, and it's a thing every year
we go through and we go through each

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other's lists and we go through and we
talk about like all the different albums

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and discover new music together and
like My boy, you know, from the womb was

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listening to music, like he's been exposed
to music his whole life and, you know,

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even when he came into the world, like
the first thing he heard was David Bowie.

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Like that was the, you know,
he was, he's always just.

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So this deep love of music and
expression and what it can do for

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your mood, for your state of mind.

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I think that's just something that
I, yeah, I'm, I can, I can witness

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the benefits of it, you know, of
how it's made him feel like as a

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direct thing that's come from me.

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Because I'm trying to think of like, I
mean, yeah, we've read similar books.

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We've, you know, he's, I
mean, he's a voracious reader.

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So he actually, he reads a lot and
You know, I mean, certainly more

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than I had ever read at that age.

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So, but yeah, I think like, it would
be music, it'd be the thing that I've

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certainly, I think I can see that I've
passed on to him, apart from other, you

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know, I suppose when I, when you pitched
this topic, I was sort of thinking more

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of like the values and things that we'd,

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Joe: Yeah, that's why I
wanted to broaden it out too.

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Yeah, because that's, yeah.

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Like, let's just say, who knows when we're
going to die, but let's just say by the

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time they're 21, like what have we Well.

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Passed on to

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Sam: them.

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It's funny, funny you should put that
age on it, because you and I were down a

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parent by that age, and   at that point,
whatever legacy they intended to give me,

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intellectually or culturally or values
or whatever, that had already been done.

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What I didn't realise was actually
that it keeps being transmitted, and

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that And I don't mean that in any kind
of supernatural sense, but that the

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parents, the dead ones, they still speak
to you, uh, you remember things as time

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goes by that weren't relevant earlier.

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And they, so things are still being
passed down is what I'm saying.

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And of course my dad's still around
and he's still passing things

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on very much, and I welcome it.

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Now with the, you and the books with,
it's great , to be in the to like

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you two can actually just ask each
other, what did you think about this?

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And that's great.

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So what was a book that you really
both uh, one that was really

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productive of a good exchange out of
all the What have you recommended?

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What have you recommended?

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Ali: Oh, so he, he just goes through
phases and like, I mean, yeah, he was

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He was going through a George Orwell
phase, so he read 1984, and then,

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so he got Notes on Catalonia, and
then we just, you know, books that

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I'd sort of read in my late teens.

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Sam: Okay, so you'd read
Notes on Catalonia, I haven't.

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Yeah,

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Ali: yeah, not for a very long time,
but I'd read it when I was younger,

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and so I gave that to him to read, so.

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Sam: So you two had a chat about
the Spanish Civil War one day?

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Ali: Yeah, so yeah, he's, and like,
and he's, he'll bring up, you know,

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Wikipedia, or he'll bring up like, you
know, things that he's been reading in

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conjunction with it, because he sort
of, he's like me, like, we'll be reading

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something, but we've got to go, and then.

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Reference and check things as we go.

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And so it becomes, so you
have a bigger picture.

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So that sort of dialogue of, you know, of
what we do, like, yeah, whether it's all

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those cultural things, whether it's music
or movies or books, like, yeah, it becomes

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a broader discussion then about what, how
did that make us feel or what, what has

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changed or how is it relevant to us now?

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And yeah, I love those discussions
with him and his insight.

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And yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I agree.

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Way to really, I think, bring you.

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closer to you that's it's the most
I feel present when I'm with him

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like it's because it's You know,
so much of the day to day of, you

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know, work and life and Rundanities.

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Sam: Yeah.

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Telling your kids to

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Ali: do stuff all the time.

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Yeah.

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Like, whereas, like, actually when we're
just sitting, like I said the other day,

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like, you know, it's the highlight of
our years, the Spotify draft is actually

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just sitting and having a really in
depth discussion about, you know, which

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grunge songs he was into, which like,
you know, like, yeah, cause he's So

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much of the music influence is like
from me and from his dad and from his

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friends and that sort of melting pot.

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It's really interesting.

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Sam: Okay.

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And of course the lyrical
profundity of treat me like a,

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Ali: That which he was
his number eight song.

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And I'm like, wow, if that, if I haven't
like rubbed off on him, What's that?

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Joe: So

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Ali: the Kim Petras was my number one
played song, treat me like a slut.

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The song

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Sam: that Joe was tutting and moral
panicking about on the, uh, on the group.

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Ali: And my son's been listening to it.

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So.

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But then, like, yeah, Nine Inch Nails
would have been, you know, cause that

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would have been mine when I was that age.

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That's right.

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Yeah, and it's the same for him.

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And that, I'm pretty sure,
that popped up on his list too.

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Like, you know, Nine Inch Nails popped

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Sam: up.

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No one in our generation thinks that
Trent Reznor's a bad influence on

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Joe: the youth, do you?

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I think I wanna fuck you like an
animal is a much better thing to

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say than treat me like a slut.

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Oh my

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Sam: God, they're both, they're both
awesome statements that need to be in the

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right context between the right people.

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Joe: Anyway, we're way off track.

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I mean,

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Sam: Sam, do you feel like,
they're both gateways into a

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world of pleasure and profundity.

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Sam, do

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Joe: you feel like you're
consciously trying to influence

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and shape your children?

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Yeah.

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I feel like you are much more conscious.

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I'm just, I guess I feel
like I just observe them.

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and do some guiding, but basically
I just watch them unfold.

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Whereas I think just from hearing you
talk about your parenting, you sound

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very conscious and focused on certain,
you know, modeling certain things and

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things around gender being a construct
and stuff that I have not done at all.

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I mean, but so I feel like you're
consciously trying to mold your children.

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Okay.

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I mean, they're much younger.

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How old are they?

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Sam: Okay, five and nine.

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I would have to tell us, I'd have
to tell a bit of a long winded

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narrative about actually how my view
of all this has changed quite a lot.

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so for example, let's attack it from the
point of view of the question of values.

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All right.

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And this is one that comes up.

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It's a favorite hobby
horse of mine, actually.

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People treat it like a simple thing.

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Empathy.

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Empathy is good, right?

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Values.

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Values are good, right?

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I think most people, no offense.

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They've not been forced to examine it in
the way I have, because professionally,

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like, in teaching, we're constant, there
are debates about values, and there's

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a lot of pressure from the media, from
parents, and from all over, politics.

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What values should we be
transmitting, blah, blah, blah.

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Or people will say, um, you know,
I sent my kids to this expensive

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school, you know, because values.

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And it's often incredibly vague.

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What, what values exactly?

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Do public schools not have values?

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That's something that
really gets my back up.

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I think public schools do have values.

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Democratic, inclusive.

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Multicultural, etc.

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Law of the

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Joe: jungle.

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Uh, that too.

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Yeah, that's what I
learned at public school.

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Now of

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Sam: course, independent schools,
law of the jungle also applies.

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Yeah.

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In a different way.

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Different type of jungle though.

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Yeah.

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Now, so, so I think that this idea
of values is very seductive and I

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think very simplistic for most people.

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Now, I'm not, I don't want to do
anyone a disservice or discredit.

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I think most people actually do, when
they stop and reflect, they will realize.

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That they actually do have a conflicted
set of values and that it's not a

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straightforward matter what they
want to pass on to their kids.

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And of course we often find
ourselves trying to transmit

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one value only to realize that
we're not living by it properly.

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Yeah, do as I say, don't do as I do.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And kids don't do what you
say, they do what they see.

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So if you keep that in mind.

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What we're, how we're really transmitting
values is just through how we live

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our lives and how we, I would say all
three of us, we've changed in how we

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live our lives and that was revealed
in a recent episode for Ali and Joe's

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been through huge changes, even just
in the last two years even, right?

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So the things that your kids
will be picking up from that

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will have changed in that time.

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Also.

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I think early on I really overthought
it when the, when they were babies,

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like I found myself quite stiff and
buttoned up around babies, my babies,

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and found it hard to be natural and be
myself and kind of like how I've felt in

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the studio when the red light turns on
and okay, it's time to sing or kind of,

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Ali: I totally, I really
resonate with that.

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It's interesting, like, when I fell
pregnant, and I was quite young

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and my son's father was very young
when we found out I was pregnant

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and it's, I mean, mercifully, we
have always been on the same page.

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Like, so co parenting with him has
been really, really, like, I can

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count on one hand the amount of times
we've ever disagreed about parenting.

00:11:47.957 --> 00:11:50.557
We're really very, very similarly minded.

00:11:51.087 --> 00:11:56.251
And I remember really vividly a discussion
around, Our own experience growing up

00:11:56.311 --> 00:12:01.911
and what we wanted for our baby and
how it was really in stark contrast to

00:12:01.911 --> 00:12:07.401
what we'd both experienced and sort of,
and really being very deliberate in,

00:12:07.911 --> 00:12:09.501
okay, well, we don't want to do this.

00:12:09.511 --> 00:12:14.101
So we don't, so it was a really conscious
thing of like, Oh, like, yeah, the, my

00:12:14.101 --> 00:12:17.531
parents, you know, quick to temper and
quick to yell and similarly with his.

00:12:18.171 --> 00:12:21.951
You know, parents and, or, you
know, anger and violence was very

00:12:21.951 --> 00:12:23.261
much a part of that experience.

00:12:23.261 --> 00:12:24.941
And so we were so

00:12:25.041 --> 00:12:26.721
Sam: also his father, yeah,

00:12:27.301 --> 00:12:27.731
Ali: very much so.

00:12:28.521 --> 00:12:32.171
And so we both had those sort of
volatile childhoods that we just did

00:12:32.171 --> 00:12:34.531
not want that experience for our boy.

00:12:34.531 --> 00:12:39.471
And so we very much, it was such
a conscious thing of like, and

00:12:39.561 --> 00:12:42.383
catching ourselves, you know,
like, Do as I say, not as I do.

00:12:42.383 --> 00:12:45.263
And you, you have, when it's
something you've observed and

00:12:45.263 --> 00:12:49.533
you've, it's so natural to be quick
to temper or to fly off the handle.

00:12:49.533 --> 00:12:52.133
Like, cause that was my experience
growing up and actually catching

00:12:52.133 --> 00:12:55.333
myself and going, no, I need to
really, that's not how we're doing it.

00:12:55.333 --> 00:12:56.703
We're going to be patient.

00:12:56.703 --> 00:12:57.503
We're going to be calm.

00:12:57.503 --> 00:12:58.513
We're going to be quiet.

00:12:58.513 --> 00:13:00.543
We're going to be, we
are going to be a safe.

00:13:01.058 --> 00:13:03.408
You know, a soft landing for him.

00:13:03.418 --> 00:13:04.858
That is all, that is what we wanted.

00:13:04.858 --> 00:13:08.628
And it was such a conscious thing
we worked on from the beginning and

00:13:08.628 --> 00:13:10.808
massively, like I said, we've always
been on the same page and I have

00:13:10.808 --> 00:13:12.268
enormous respect for him as a father.

00:13:12.268 --> 00:13:13.638
He's been a brilliant father.

00:13:13.638 --> 00:13:17.081
And so, it's been a really, I
think those sorts of things.

00:13:17.101 --> 00:13:20.901
And, and then watching like
our son grow up and, you know,

00:13:20.901 --> 00:13:23.621
the age that he is now and how.

00:13:24.181 --> 00:13:24.951
Different.

00:13:25.351 --> 00:13:29.431
I mean, like there are similarities, you
know, with me and with his father, but

00:13:29.621 --> 00:13:34.897
also the difference in just in behaviors
and things that he and his self confidence

00:13:34.897 --> 00:13:36.377
that neither his father or I had.

00:13:36.377 --> 00:13:38.237
And I think that is a
result of the way we've.

00:13:38.532 --> 00:13:40.784
If there's anything else I want to tell

00:13:40.784 --> 00:13:43.600
Joe: you in this episode
Be sure to turn it up!

00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.289
I'm in Whampara I don't have

00:13:45.289 --> 00:13:47.823
Ali: a believable idea where
my auditory analogy right is

00:13:47.823 --> 00:13:51.202
Sam: It is really horrible that
I lost this for theatre You can

00:13:51.202 --> 00:13:52.328
watch it at accuracyacademy.

00:13:52.328 --> 00:13:55.144
tv mmm sung Bob let your
heights shoot out That

00:13:55.144 --> 00:13:56.552
Joe: is so good Woah, no!

00:13:56.552 --> 00:13:58.402
It's just what I would be concerned about.

00:13:58.432 --> 00:13:58.742
Of course.

00:13:58.742 --> 00:13:58.972
Oh yeah,

00:13:59.232 --> 00:13:59.342
Ali: absolutely.

00:13:59.362 --> 00:14:00.612
Like what was

00:14:00.622 --> 00:14:00.992
Joe: good?

00:14:01.002 --> 00:14:04.062
What was good about having being
yelled at and belted as a kid?

00:14:04.102 --> 00:14:07.512
Probably nothing except that maybe
toughened you up a little bit, right?

00:14:07.672 --> 00:14:07.982
Yes.

00:14:07.982 --> 00:14:08.712
It didn't happen to me.

00:14:08.712 --> 00:14:09.722
I didn't get really hit

00:14:09.762 --> 00:14:10.098
Sam: as a kid.

00:14:10.098 --> 00:14:11.712
What doesn't kill you
makes you weaker sometimes.

00:14:11.722 --> 00:14:12.742
Joe: Yeah, I don't know.

00:14:13.112 --> 00:14:16.572
And maybe the world that he goes
into isn't going to be a scary place.

00:14:16.572 --> 00:14:16.812
I have

00:14:16.812 --> 00:14:17.192
Ali: no idea.

00:14:17.302 --> 00:14:19.872
I mean, he's certainly experienced,
I would say, yeah, things at school

00:14:19.902 --> 00:14:22.472
that yeah, are horrible or, you
know, other kids saying shit.

00:14:22.532 --> 00:14:24.752
Things and things that he would
never have, you know, experienced

00:14:24.752 --> 00:14:27.752
in the home and like, you know,
people being really awful or having,

00:14:27.752 --> 00:14:29.012
you know, saying terrible things.

00:14:29.312 --> 00:14:32.492
And yeah, he's come home and we've
talked about it, but the way he's

00:14:32.492 --> 00:14:36.702
been able to handle himself, I
think what we've tried to foster is

00:14:36.707 --> 00:14:38.682
a strong sense of self-confidence.

00:14:38.862 --> 00:14:38.922
Yeah.

00:14:39.192 --> 00:14:39.493
So that.

00:14:40.067 --> 00:14:42.537
He's confident enough and learned,
felt comfortable enough to be able

00:14:42.537 --> 00:14:47.037
to speak his mind in the home, which
was never something I was able to

00:14:47.337 --> 00:14:48.427
do, or his father was able to do.

00:14:48.897 --> 00:14:53.437
So that in the real world, that's actually
translated to him being able to stand up

00:14:53.857 --> 00:14:55.657
not just for himself, but for his friends.

00:14:55.657 --> 00:14:58.647
And he is very quick to step in and say

00:14:58.647 --> 00:14:59.217
Sam: something.

00:14:59.367 --> 00:15:02.637
Teenagers have a strong sense of
justice generally, as, as kids do.

00:15:02.912 --> 00:15:05.842
Ali: But it's the confidence to be able to
say, actually do something, whereas like

00:15:05.842 --> 00:15:09.382
I would have probably hung back and been
like, you know, or just not say anything.

00:15:09.382 --> 00:15:12.782
Whereas I think he's actually far more
vocal than his father and I ever were.

00:15:12.782 --> 00:15:12.952
Well,

00:15:13.032 --> 00:15:14.302
Sam: I think that's right.

00:15:14.302 --> 00:15:17.972
I think kids and teens in general
suffer greatly when there is that

00:15:17.972 --> 00:15:20.852
gap between their sense of justice
and their feeling of agency about

00:15:20.852 --> 00:15:22.162
being able to do anything about it.

00:15:22.312 --> 00:15:23.462
Ali: Um, yeah, that's the thing.

00:15:23.462 --> 00:15:27.482
I think that sense of agency and
knowing like, and this is something

00:15:27.482 --> 00:15:29.302
in stark contrast to my, my.

00:15:29.597 --> 00:15:33.922
Parents is that he's always, I think
he's always had a sense of his.

00:15:34.382 --> 00:15:37.302
Voice is just as important as
mom and dad's in the family.

00:15:37.312 --> 00:15:38.002
It always was.

00:15:38.022 --> 00:15:38.332
It was

00:15:38.582 --> 00:15:41.972
Joe: But we joked about the other
week how they sent you to a fancy

00:15:42.052 --> 00:15:44.812
girls private school and they told
you that your voice was important.

00:15:45.482 --> 00:15:50.872
We joked about We all had a laugh about
that because The teenage's voice is

00:15:50.872 --> 00:15:52.842
not actually that important in society.

00:15:52.882 --> 00:15:53.282
Agreed.

00:15:53.282 --> 00:15:55.982
Yeah, but Unless you're Greta
Thunberg and then And You know,

00:15:56.282 --> 00:15:57.392
people have a meltdown about it.

00:15:58.417 --> 00:16:00.827
Sam: And people say virtuous
things like the, the conservatives

00:16:00.877 --> 00:16:04.267
and the liberals alike are happy
to say, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:16:04.267 --> 00:16:06.777
Kids, you know, kids should
speak up on important issues.

00:16:06.777 --> 00:16:08.487
And then the second they
do, you don't get it.

00:16:08.507 --> 00:16:08.987
Shut up.

00:16:10.407 --> 00:16:10.477
Ali: Yeah.

00:16:10.797 --> 00:16:11.307
I don't know.

00:16:11.337 --> 00:16:12.307
Like, I feel like.

00:16:13.147 --> 00:16:14.527
Joe: But yeah, but you've done that.

00:16:15.017 --> 00:16:18.617
So you can see the irony that you were
told that as a teenager, but you don't

00:16:18.617 --> 00:16:23.747
have irony that your son has full say in,
you know, things even though he's a minor.

00:16:23.807 --> 00:16:24.347
But I was

00:16:24.377 --> 00:16:27.857
Ali: told that like in the school
sense, but there was really still

00:16:27.857 --> 00:16:31.907
very strict boundaries of when and
where that voice could be used or not.

00:16:31.907 --> 00:16:32.207
This is

00:16:32.207 --> 00:16:32.877
Sam: just it, right?

00:16:32.877 --> 00:16:33.137
Yeah.

00:16:33.472 --> 00:16:37.442
You, your voice is important, now save
it till you leave this place, I think

00:16:37.452 --> 00:16:38.352
is the message a lot of the time.

00:16:38.362 --> 00:16:41.132
Ali: Yeah, it was like, yeah, not
to speak out of turn in class,

00:16:41.152 --> 00:16:43.592
or out of turn against your
parents or anything like that,

00:16:43.592 --> 00:16:46.172
Sam: whereas Oh, and don't be, don't
be putting anything in the feedback

00:16:46.172 --> 00:16:48.075
box for the school to consider doing

00:16:48.075 --> 00:16:48.450
Ali: differently.

00:16:48.450 --> 00:16:49.199
So, yeah.

00:16:49.199 --> 00:16:53.537
Whereas he certainly would feel
comfortable Pulling me up on something

00:16:53.617 --> 00:16:57.677
that he doesn't agree with and same
with his father and like, and yeah,

00:16:57.757 --> 00:17:01.427
so not take that sort of as a personal
affront, but just as another person

00:17:01.457 --> 00:17:05.222
of equal, like I said, there was,
there's no like, Oh, you have to listen

00:17:05.222 --> 00:17:06.652
to me just because I'm your parent.

00:17:06.672 --> 00:17:06.892
Sam: Yeah.

00:17:06.982 --> 00:17:08.042
Appeal to authority.

00:17:08.102 --> 00:17:08.342
Yeah.

00:17:08.342 --> 00:17:13.262
Which is a difficult one because
we can't live without authority and

00:17:13.262 --> 00:17:15.292
we can't just base it on authority.

00:17:15.502 --> 00:17:15.732
Yeah.

00:17:16.032 --> 00:17:16.172
Ali: Yeah.

00:17:16.172 --> 00:17:16.872
It's a balance.

00:17:16.872 --> 00:17:17.502
Like, you know, yeah.

00:17:17.502 --> 00:17:18.042
Like it's like.

00:17:18.042 --> 00:17:18.297
Yeah.

00:17:18.417 --> 00:17:21.567
Trust my judgment because I'm your mother,
because I might've experienced something.

00:17:21.567 --> 00:17:24.647
I might have a bit of insight and
knowledge in, you know, when it comes

00:17:24.647 --> 00:17:28.507
to this versus just like do it because
I've told you to do it without any

00:17:28.507 --> 00:17:33.347
sort of, you know, we've always tried
to offer an explanation or yeah,

00:17:33.347 --> 00:17:35.277
or reason behind what we've said.

00:17:35.307 --> 00:17:38.427
Joe: I mean, in terms of not
going through, not wanting your

00:17:38.427 --> 00:17:42.517
kids to go through what you
went through, I achieved that.

00:17:42.527 --> 00:17:44.427
We achieved that by breaking up.

00:17:46.362 --> 00:17:49.672
Uh, well, eight years ago, yeah,
which eventually the kids were like

00:17:49.852 --> 00:17:52.882
six and two, which broke up, which
paved the way for you to, well,

00:17:52.912 --> 00:17:57.672
unlike me, they didn't live in a house
with tension, intrigue, fighting.

00:17:58.170 --> 00:18:03.433
And all their time with me as the single
dad is the super chill, laissez faire, I'm

00:18:03.433 --> 00:18:06.153
not consciously trying to mold those kids.

00:18:06.153 --> 00:18:06.823
And not lecturing

00:18:06.823 --> 00:18:07.352
Sam: them about left wing politics.

00:18:07.352 --> 00:18:11.683
Joe: If it's what you do, not
what you say, then what I do is

00:18:11.683 --> 00:18:13.913
look at my phone and watch sport.

00:18:14.193 --> 00:18:17.763
And when I look at my 14 year
old, what she does is look at

00:18:17.973 --> 00:18:19.903
her phone and do her makeup.

00:18:20.923 --> 00:18:21.913
So you're

00:18:21.913 --> 00:18:22.623
Sam: on the same page.

00:18:22.643 --> 00:18:22.893
Great.

00:18:23.233 --> 00:18:26.603
Joe: Well, I have an exact mirror
of myself looking back at me.

00:18:26.653 --> 00:18:31.143
I'm on my side, you know, past the
phone in each direction, right?

00:18:31.293 --> 00:18:32.533
And so do I want that?

00:18:33.893 --> 00:18:35.943
It might be really fucking bad.

00:18:35.983 --> 00:18:39.343
I mean, I think the social
media, the data's in on what

00:18:39.343 --> 00:18:40.833
social media does to teenage

00:18:40.863 --> 00:18:41.333
Sam: girls.

00:18:41.373 --> 00:18:42.363
It's really bad.

00:18:42.493 --> 00:18:45.533
Also, Joe, you're a big one for
individual responsibility in your,

00:18:45.803 --> 00:18:50.633
you know, small C conservative role
occasionally, or occasionally a

00:18:50.633 --> 00:18:52.923
reactionary role, but like, don't forget.

00:18:53.313 --> 00:18:57.243
Don't give yourself all the credit or all
the blame for anything and I mean what

00:18:57.243 --> 00:19:01.013
Ali: I even the most like strict parents
who You know would be like we would

00:19:01.023 --> 00:19:04.373
monitor like, you know screen time
and all that sort of stuff Yeah, that

00:19:04.373 --> 00:19:07.603
would still be and that is absolutely
a battle that every single parent is

00:19:07.613 --> 00:19:10.163
having in the view in the world What

00:19:10.163 --> 00:19:13.043
Joe: I'm saying is I'm not having the
battle because my experience is I'm

00:19:13.063 --> 00:19:18.293
integrated with my iPhone so that I would
get an implant I would get an implant

00:19:18.293 --> 00:19:19.618
into my brain that was Google Maps.

00:19:19.648 --> 00:19:22.638
I would get an implant into my brain
that was Black Mirror stuff, yeah.

00:19:23.088 --> 00:19:23.828
No, I would.

00:19:23.868 --> 00:19:26.678
I'd get Google Maps and Spotify implanted.

00:19:27.038 --> 00:19:29.868
Because basically, say if I'm
ever driving a vehicle, those

00:19:29.868 --> 00:19:33.518
things are running and I'm getting
music and I know where I'm going.

00:19:33.658 --> 00:19:36.293
Music I love and I know where I'm going.

00:19:36.823 --> 00:19:41.623
So I'm completely integrated with
my iPhone, plus then I'm reading

00:19:41.633 --> 00:19:44.523
books, articles, Instagram, whatever.

00:19:45.823 --> 00:19:50.553
So my experience was the year that
Scarlett was born, when I got my

00:19:50.553 --> 00:19:53.083
first iPhone, I thought this was cool.

00:19:53.093 --> 00:19:58.603
I didn't realise I was going to become
basically a cyborg, but I have, right?

00:19:59.003 --> 00:20:03.503
So then I can either hide that
from my children and say it's bad.

00:20:04.053 --> 00:20:05.433
It's very bad.

00:20:05.473 --> 00:20:08.933
I'm doing it, but it's very bad,
but I'm not going to stop doing it.

00:20:08.983 --> 00:20:11.673
Or, and what I've actually
done is just let it slide.

00:20:11.793 --> 00:20:12.393
Or I'm,

00:20:12.463 --> 00:20:15.013
Sam: I'm, or I've got a terrible drinking
habit, but I'm going to tell you not

00:20:15.023 --> 00:20:15.413
Joe: to do drugs.

00:20:15.413 --> 00:20:18.453
Well the other thing that they
haven't seen in the last eight years

00:20:18.453 --> 00:20:20.253
is me drinking or taking drugs.

00:20:20.263 --> 00:20:20.583
Great.

00:20:20.788 --> 00:20:21.208
That's awesome.

00:20:21.238 --> 00:20:24.028
And in my house, I saw that
every single night of my life

00:20:24.088 --> 00:20:25.368
and then became an alcoholic.

00:20:25.378 --> 00:20:28.316
So it's, you know, I think
you've done all right.

00:20:28.436 --> 00:20:29.476
Well, there's pros and cons.

00:20:29.526 --> 00:20:30.206
Exactly.

00:20:30.376 --> 00:20:31.346
The phone stuff.

00:20:31.866 --> 00:20:37.326
I wish they looked over and I was,
uh, reading a book, a paper book.

00:20:37.356 --> 00:20:38.786
I might be reading a book on my phone.

00:20:38.786 --> 00:20:40.596
It's probably unlikely, but I might be.

00:20:41.126 --> 00:20:42.626
I kind of wish they looked over.

00:20:43.246 --> 00:20:48.006
In a way, because, I mean, it's a bit of a
joke, but in that small key C conservative

00:20:48.006 --> 00:20:52.066
way, I kind of wish they looked over
and I was sitting in an armchair

00:20:52.066 --> 00:20:54.376
with a pipe reading a huge newspaper.

00:20:54.486 --> 00:20:55.856
Which is what

00:20:55.856 --> 00:20:57.096
Sam: you used to do, kind of.

00:20:57.326 --> 00:20:57.806
Joe: Kind of?

00:20:57.806 --> 00:20:58.246
Yeah.

00:20:58.546 --> 00:21:05.016
Like, I still see the patriarchal
role as that, in a sense, and if I'm

00:21:05.016 --> 00:21:07.456
Sam: there Isn't it curious
what a passive image it is?

00:21:08.166 --> 00:21:08.556
It's very

00:21:08.556 --> 00:21:11.466
Joe: passive, but it's also,
for a patriarchal image,

00:21:11.806 --> 00:21:12.536
Sam: it's so passive.

00:21:13.636 --> 00:21:16.506
The mother is always doing, and
the father is doing nothing.

00:21:16.506 --> 00:21:17.676
Joe: The

00:21:17.676 --> 00:21:22.986
Sam: woman is the man of action, and the
man is a Passive consumer, but that's

00:21:22.986 --> 00:21:26.536
Joe: kind of how bizarre it's kind
of like that, but without the giant

00:21:26.536 --> 00:21:30.706
newspaper and the, and the armchair and
the pipe, it's kind of like that, but

00:21:30.706 --> 00:21:32.756
I'm sitting on the couch with my phone.

00:21:32.756 --> 00:21:33.276
It's really,

00:21:33.276 --> 00:21:37.296
Ali: I mean, I really, I feel the guilt
there too and stuff, but like we all,

00:21:37.376 --> 00:21:38.836
we, I think we're all guilty of it.

00:21:38.836 --> 00:21:39.556
And like,

00:21:40.306 --> 00:21:42.496
Joe: I mean, the difference
with that fifties father though,

00:21:42.526 --> 00:21:45.586
is that he's unapproachable
and will tell them to shush.

00:21:45.606 --> 00:21:45.856
Yeah.

00:21:45.996 --> 00:21:46.906
I'm not like that at all.

00:21:46.906 --> 00:21:50.416
I'm completely wide open if they want to
come and climb up on me or they want to.

00:21:50.891 --> 00:21:54.041
Ask me a question or, well, if
they want to engage, I will engage.

00:21:54.041 --> 00:21:55.081
Well, the phone's not a wall

00:21:55.081 --> 00:21:55.491
Sam: then.

00:21:55.541 --> 00:21:56.051
That's good.

00:21:56.261 --> 00:21:56.631
Yeah.

00:21:56.801 --> 00:21:57.211
That's good.

00:21:57.881 --> 00:21:58.961
Joe: No, it's just

00:21:59.221 --> 00:22:01.441
Ali: It's whether they
do then come to you.

00:22:01.521 --> 00:22:04.401
I think that's And if they
do, then it's not a, it's,

00:22:04.491 --> 00:22:05.187
Joe: it's not a problem.

00:22:05.187 --> 00:22:08.541
In terms of what I want to pass on
to them, there's lots of things,

00:22:08.771 --> 00:22:13.111
but the thing that I 100 percent
will pass on to them is to stare

00:22:13.111 --> 00:22:14.691
at a screen most of the time.

00:22:15.311 --> 00:22:18.841
I will, I've already passed that
on, you know, like Ruby the 10

00:22:18.841 --> 00:22:20.131
year old wants her first phone.

00:22:20.131 --> 00:22:21.301
She's already got an iPad.

00:22:21.341 --> 00:22:26.861
Yeah, it's happening, you know,
so, but, but that is a culture wide

00:22:26.951 --> 00:22:30.661
worldwide phenomenon that's just
galloping away and we're just going

00:22:30.661 --> 00:22:32.681
to have to see what the wash up is.

00:22:32.681 --> 00:22:33.851
It can't be stopped now.

00:22:33.971 --> 00:22:34.311
Hmm.

00:22:34.573 --> 00:22:37.163
Sam: well, I mean, there's all sorts of
things that are actually being done, um,

00:22:37.173 --> 00:22:41.053
in and outside of industry and, you know,
there are popular movements to tackle it.

00:22:41.133 --> 00:22:44.883
But yeah, so we can't,
so that's, that's right.

00:22:44.883 --> 00:22:49.843
So we're realizing what all the illusions
and hidden reefs are here in this topic.

00:22:49.983 --> 00:22:52.983
And one of the illusions
is it's up to us entirely.

00:22:52.983 --> 00:22:57.013
And one of the illusions is, um,
that it's a, there's a simple

00:22:57.013 --> 00:23:00.003
relationship between our intention
and what actually gets transmitted.

00:23:00.333 --> 00:23:02.743
And so to take it and
taking the example of.

00:23:02.801 --> 00:23:02.981
Yeah.

00:23:02.981 --> 00:23:03.871
I'm on my phone too much.

00:23:03.871 --> 00:23:04.571
This is bad.

00:23:04.631 --> 00:23:06.001
Uh, you, you don't do it.

00:23:06.431 --> 00:23:08.021
And at least you're not a
hypocrite with that, right?

00:23:08.411 --> 00:23:13.001
Because let's say with the best
intentions, you did really consciously

00:23:13.001 --> 00:23:16.971
limit your phone use around your kids,
which is something I'm working on.

00:23:17.021 --> 00:23:17.241
Yeah.

00:23:17.401 --> 00:23:20.217
Ali: That's what, I mean, we just
have boundaries around, just don't

00:23:20.217 --> 00:23:24.499
have it at the dinner table or like,
you know, we're having a discussion.

00:23:24.499 --> 00:23:27.558
Don't, you know, don't look
at your phone while we're

00:23:27.558 --> 00:23:28.782
Joe: talking to each other.

00:23:28.782 --> 00:23:29.393
Well, that

00:23:29.393 --> 00:23:31.228
Ali: sort of thing, things like that.

00:23:31.228 --> 00:23:35.146
So I don't Yeah, those sorts of, but
yeah, and that's where I'm trying to

00:23:35.146 --> 00:23:37.206
model that and not pull my phone out.

00:23:37.416 --> 00:23:37.736
Well, yeah.

00:23:37.736 --> 00:23:40.256
And, and so, and he's,
yeah, really good like that.

00:23:40.256 --> 00:23:40.846
So I mean, yeah.

00:23:40.846 --> 00:23:42.556
Joe: You have to admit your
phone is a lot more interesting

00:23:42.556 --> 00:23:43.376
than your only child, though.

00:23:44.416 --> 00:23:50.136
So, that's the illusion is the phone is
always more interesting than whatever's

00:23:50.136 --> 00:23:51.686
in front of us, even our beloved children.

00:23:51.686 --> 00:23:52.226
I agree.

00:23:52.226 --> 00:23:52.636
I agree in it.

00:23:52.776 --> 00:23:53.326
It's an illusion.

00:23:53.336 --> 00:23:56.796
It's an illusion, but
it's, it's very pervasive.

00:23:57.576 --> 00:24:00.436
And then the other, the real
sneaky one is I can have both.

00:24:00.496 --> 00:24:03.016
I can have my beautiful daughters
in front of me and be engaging with

00:24:03.016 --> 00:24:05.476
them, but also checking Instagram.

00:24:05.476 --> 00:24:06.886
We kind of can't

00:24:06.936 --> 00:24:07.476
Sam: really have both.

00:24:07.626 --> 00:24:09.946
Well, this is what I was trying
to point us to just now with my

00:24:09.946 --> 00:24:12.906
remarks, that what I'm trying to
get at is like, it's the dialectic.

00:24:12.956 --> 00:24:17.616
So you, you know, you think you're landing
here, this is what actually happens.

00:24:17.716 --> 00:24:20.276
And then that produces a
synthesis of the two things.

00:24:20.336 --> 00:24:26.066
And so if we adopt a hypocritical
stance as parents in the effort

00:24:26.066 --> 00:24:29.296
to, okay, I know I'm flawed, but
here's what you should live by.

00:24:29.706 --> 00:24:31.566
What we actually transmit is hypocrisy.

00:24:32.226 --> 00:24:34.936
Then, so we've got another
option, which is accept.

00:24:35.516 --> 00:24:39.826
How we are, to a degree, and invoke
the good enough parent, Winnicott,

00:24:40.766 --> 00:24:41.866
uh, that's really important.

00:24:43.506 --> 00:24:49.156
Try to be real with our kids, you know,
so that's, that's another option or we

00:24:49.156 --> 00:24:52.906
can engage in subterfuge and only do
our bad things when they're not looking.

00:24:52.926 --> 00:24:53.246
Yeah.

00:24:53.246 --> 00:24:53.336
Yeah.

00:24:54.206 --> 00:24:55.386
Which they always see through.

00:24:55.556 --> 00:24:56.506
That's exactly right.

00:24:56.556 --> 00:24:57.406
All parents do that

00:24:57.406 --> 00:24:57.466
Ali: though.

00:24:57.586 --> 00:24:59.546
You just wait till the kids have
gone to bed and that's when you put

00:24:59.546 --> 00:25:01.176
on the things you want to watch.

00:25:01.196 --> 00:25:02.576
That's when you watch Real Housewives.

00:25:02.736 --> 00:25:02.956
Yeah.

00:25:02.956 --> 00:25:04.516
And you eat all the snacks.

00:25:04.516 --> 00:25:04.750
Yeah.

00:25:04.750 --> 00:25:05.216
That's right.

00:25:05.216 --> 00:25:05.916
And I don't

00:25:05.916 --> 00:25:06.306
Joe: do any of that.

00:25:07.416 --> 00:25:08.496
I think I'm a completely Joe lives

00:25:08.961 --> 00:25:10.271
Sam: lives like an open book, he does.

00:25:10.801 --> 00:25:11.311
I do, I think I

00:25:11.361 --> 00:25:11.531
Joe: do.

00:25:11.621 --> 00:25:12.441
Yeah, I like that a lot.

00:25:12.441 --> 00:25:13.171
I mean, I don't,

00:25:13.661 --> 00:25:13.971
Sam: you know.

00:25:14.391 --> 00:25:15.711
I think the honesty approach is.

00:25:16.236 --> 00:25:17.401
Is, it's the way to go.

00:25:17.681 --> 00:25:18.041
I think it's

00:25:18.701 --> 00:25:22.746
Joe: the, the, the, the book's been too
open in that they've met four girlfriends

00:25:22.746 --> 00:25:24.876
in eight years and in the end Mm-Hmm.

00:25:24.881 --> 00:25:26.616
In the, in the final analysis.

00:25:26.616 --> 00:25:28.746
None of the, that never needed to happen.

00:25:28.986 --> 00:25:29.256
No.

00:25:29.256 --> 00:25:29.676
But the Okay.

00:25:29.706 --> 00:25:32.346
For example, that's probably,
it's probably my biggest regret.

00:25:32.496 --> 00:25:32.796
Okay.

00:25:33.036 --> 00:25:33.486
Interesting.

00:25:33.696 --> 00:25:37.056
A single dad is just to go too
soon on the meet the girlfriend.

00:25:37.176 --> 00:25:37.566
Yeah.

00:25:37.566 --> 00:25:37.567
Yeah.

00:25:37.746 --> 00:25:41.406
Uh, just 'cause I've made that, I
mean, it feels like the kind of stuff

00:25:41.406 --> 00:25:43.116
that's gonna come up in therapy later.

00:25:43.121 --> 00:25:43.361
Mm-Hmm.

00:25:43.511 --> 00:25:43.801
like.

00:25:44.326 --> 00:25:48.666
You know, it feels, it has that
tone about it of like, well, we

00:25:48.666 --> 00:25:49.976
did meet all these girlfriends.

00:25:50.206 --> 00:25:52.166
Sam: What about Byron Bay person?

00:25:52.646 --> 00:25:53.776
Did they meet her?

00:25:54.096 --> 00:25:54.476
Yeah.

00:25:54.576 --> 00:25:54.866
Yeah.

00:25:54.966 --> 00:25:55.346
Okay.

00:25:55.506 --> 00:25:55.786
Yeah.

00:25:56.086 --> 00:25:58.626
Well, look, on the other hand,
again, it's the dialectic.

00:25:58.936 --> 00:26:03.906
You think what was transmitted
was, oh boy, look at loose old dad

00:26:03.906 --> 00:26:05.246
with his string of girlfriends.

00:26:05.536 --> 00:26:10.586
But also you gotta, what, what actually
So, you've got a one dimensional

00:26:10.586 --> 00:26:11.446
idea of what was transmitted there.

00:26:11.446 --> 00:26:12.396
I'm not saying it because

00:26:12.406 --> 00:26:14.196
Joe: it's immoral, I
think it's because it's

00:26:14.216 --> 00:26:14.856
Sam: confusing.

00:26:14.876 --> 00:26:15.546
Confusing, sure.

00:26:15.666 --> 00:26:15.796
That's it.

00:26:15.796 --> 00:26:16.716
No, no, I get that.

00:26:16.726 --> 00:26:19.076
But I think the other thing that was
transmitted, though, was that you

00:26:19.076 --> 00:26:23.196
had a degree of control over that
situation, and maybe some of it, okay,

00:26:23.496 --> 00:26:25.606
you brought them in too soon, okay?

00:26:25.606 --> 00:26:28.836
On the other hand, you ended
all of those relationships, and

00:26:28.906 --> 00:26:32.086
you modelled an example, I would

00:26:32.086 --> 00:26:34.656
Joe: not say And there was no
fighting in front of the kids with any

00:26:34.656 --> 00:26:35.326
Sam: of those partners.

00:26:35.386 --> 00:26:40.546
And you modelled a good example,
a good enough Viable example of a

00:26:40.546 --> 00:26:42.666
person making a better decision.

00:26:42.725 --> 00:26:46.765
And I think that, that example of
mistake, better decision is much more

00:26:46.765 --> 00:26:50.865
powerful than I must avoid errors as a
parent and show what perfection looks

00:26:51.285 --> 00:26:53.475
Joe: like, because that
is a deadly, deadly trap.

00:26:54.235 --> 00:26:57.155
It would have been pretty buttoned
down to have a complete bright line

00:26:57.155 --> 00:27:00.695
between anyone I dated and my kids,
even though I dated them for, say,

00:27:00.695 --> 00:27:03.235
six months, to say you can never meet.

00:27:04.580 --> 00:27:07.740
There's a pressure that's created of
like, well, why can't I meet your kids?

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:08.090
Well, so the

00:27:08.090 --> 00:27:11.150
Sam: artificiality on both sides.

00:27:11.260 --> 00:27:12.590
So yeah, that's right.

00:27:12.590 --> 00:27:16.410
So, and also they might express at
some point, wait a minute, are you

00:27:16.410 --> 00:27:17.670
trying to conceal something here?

00:27:17.700 --> 00:27:19.940
So you just have to negotiate
it the whole way through.

00:27:20.740 --> 00:27:20.900
There's

00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:21.350
Joe: no rules.

00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:25.050
Anyway, so that's the stuff that we're
transmitting, whether we want to or not.

00:27:25.945 --> 00:27:27.455
I don't know what you're transmitting.

00:27:27.535 --> 00:27:30.795
It sounds like you're trying to limit
your phone use and stuff, but you also

00:27:30.825 --> 00:27:35.055
have, like I said, quite a conscious,
some very conscious ideas about trying

00:27:35.055 --> 00:27:39.805
to transmit something that's not, say,
heteronormative or whatever, right?

00:27:40.315 --> 00:27:42.085
Sam: Well, I'll start
with where it all began.

00:27:42.085 --> 00:27:46.095
So with the first baby, and I said to
all the, you know, extended family and

00:27:46.095 --> 00:27:51.449
grandparents and stuff, okay, I just
have two things that I want to, lay down.

00:27:52.769 --> 00:27:54.259
I tried to lay down something.

00:27:54.549 --> 00:27:58.769
And what, so I've got two very, two
things that are very important to me.

00:27:59.749 --> 00:28:03.389
One, can we please keep them away
from sugar for as long as possible?

00:28:03.399 --> 00:28:04.379
Like refined sugar.

00:28:04.487 --> 00:28:11.164
And can we not gender them any more than
society and consumption is going to do?

00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:13.209
Like, we don't need to add to that.

00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:17.579
It's going to come in hot
and strong, no matter what.

00:28:17.649 --> 00:28:21.719
So it, you know, you go to K Mart
or, you know, Big W or whatever,

00:28:21.749 --> 00:28:24.179
and you walk the toy aisles.

00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:30.659
It is, it's apartheid South Africa, boy
stuff over here, girl stuff over here.

00:28:31.199 --> 00:28:32.399
It's outrageous.

00:28:32.479 --> 00:28:34.459
And they pick that up.

00:28:34.693 --> 00:28:35.653
They know what's what.

00:28:36.173 --> 00:28:40.923
We've had a hundred years of
modern advertising since Freud's

00:28:40.933 --> 00:28:42.803
nephew invented it, basically.

00:28:42.832 --> 00:28:47.912
And we've got a very well established
science of influence and market

00:28:47.912 --> 00:28:51.642
segmentation, audience segmentation,
and so on, and they get segmented,

00:28:51.672 --> 00:28:52.632
they get diced and sliced.

00:28:53.352 --> 00:28:59.462
In two seconds, by those forces, and the
only thing parents can really do there,

00:28:59.632 --> 00:29:03.918
apart from, you know, try and keep them
out of Big W, is We don't need to add

00:29:03.918 --> 00:29:06.138
to that by validating those signals.

00:29:06.168 --> 00:29:10.858
We, we don't need to go, here,
here's a gun for the boy and

00:29:10.858 --> 00:29:12.398
here's a Barbie for the girl.

00:29:12.478 --> 00:29:16.618
Like, sorry, I know Barbie's a hot
property right now, but I think we've been

00:29:16.618 --> 00:29:19.478
conned to a slight degree by some of that.

00:29:19.532 --> 00:29:23.262
It's, that particular property
is not the only problem.

00:29:23.372 --> 00:29:24.212
Lego does it.

00:29:24.311 --> 00:29:25.361
everyone's doing it.

00:29:25.471 --> 00:29:26.131
And guess what?

00:29:26.161 --> 00:29:30.601
The first toy company or children's
IP that doesn't play the gender game.

00:29:30.996 --> 00:29:34.266
is going to lose, and they're
going to lose market over it.

00:29:34.304 --> 00:29:37.364
These kids want to be marketed to
according to gender for the most part.

00:29:37.424 --> 00:29:42.217
So, if, let's say, you know,
Disney decided, oh, well, yeah,

00:29:42.217 --> 00:29:45.487
we're going to like, go gender
neutral with all our IP from now

00:29:45.487 --> 00:29:47.327
on, it wouldn't work commercially.

00:29:47.767 --> 00:29:50.237
And as much as the right are
freaking out about the culture

00:29:50.237 --> 00:29:55.047
industry, uh, destabilizing
heteronormativity, bugger off.

00:29:55.477 --> 00:29:57.897
Heteronormativity is alive and well.

00:29:58.207 --> 00:29:58.607
Joe: It is going strong.

00:29:58.607 --> 00:30:01.117
Gender reveal parties only started
happening in the last 10 years,

00:30:01.117 --> 00:30:03.707
as far as I can tell, with pink
and blue balloons and shit.

00:30:03.897 --> 00:30:04.097
Yeah.

00:30:04.607 --> 00:30:05.217
Sam: Where do they come from?

00:30:05.347 --> 00:30:07.697
Gender is being reified more.

00:30:07.747 --> 00:30:08.607
Gender's fine.

00:30:08.817 --> 00:30:09.867
Yeah, gender is going

00:30:09.867 --> 00:30:10.217
Joe: strong.

00:30:10.217 --> 00:30:13.347
Gender's not going anywhere, and
whatever you tried to do in that regard

00:30:13.347 --> 00:30:14.697
would have had close to zero influence.

00:30:15.367 --> 00:30:15.697
Ali: Uh, no.

00:30:16.357 --> 00:30:20.657
No, it's like, cause we did, it was
quite similar with, with our boy in

00:30:20.657 --> 00:30:24.042
that, like, yeah, it wasn't, We had
only a couple of rules and one was no

00:30:24.042 --> 00:30:27.262
hitting, like, like, no parent, like,
no grandparent giving them a whack,

00:30:27.292 --> 00:30:28.662
like, that's just not happening.

00:30:29.067 --> 00:30:33.757
Like both great, both sets of grandparents
tried to, and we would both shut down

00:30:33.767 --> 00:30:35.477
very quickly that that was not okay.

00:30:35.477 --> 00:30:36.417
And we were not doing that.

00:30:36.717 --> 00:30:40.807
And the other one was around toys
are toys and there's no, he can

00:30:40.807 --> 00:30:41.887
play with whatever he wants with.

00:30:41.987 --> 00:30:42.367
The girl

00:30:42.367 --> 00:30:43.547
Sam: should play with guns too.

00:30:43.547 --> 00:30:44.297
I

00:30:44.297 --> 00:30:45.462
Ali: do believe that.

00:30:45.462 --> 00:30:49.797
And like, and he has always
gravitated towards dress ups and

00:30:49.797 --> 00:30:53.677
make believe and you know, and,
and Barbies and things like that.

00:30:53.677 --> 00:30:53.844
It's fun.

00:30:53.844 --> 00:30:54.010
It's fun.

00:30:54.010 --> 00:30:57.022
And I remember when he was like,
Three, and the, you know, he's just

00:30:57.022 --> 00:31:00.502
starting to really talk and he's
got up on Santa's knee because, you

00:31:00.502 --> 00:31:01.562
know, what do you want for Christmas?

00:31:01.582 --> 00:31:04.702
And he asked for a Barbie
camper van and a blonde wig.

00:31:04.902 --> 00:31:09.382
They'll like, they'll be just, and
so, and I remember my parents, like

00:31:09.382 --> 00:31:11.992
my dad being quite at the time.

00:31:12.019 --> 00:31:12.589
Affronted.

00:31:12.639 --> 00:31:12.899
Yeah.

00:31:12.899 --> 00:31:13.899
Just like, why?

00:31:13.999 --> 00:31:15.399
You know, why would you buy him that?

00:31:15.399 --> 00:31:17.969
And I was like, well, every other
kid, you know, who's obviously

00:31:17.969 --> 00:31:20.979
parents are, you know, able to
afford to buy, you know, their kids.

00:31:21.394 --> 00:31:23.664
presents, you know, the kid who
asked for Lego is going to get Lego.

00:31:23.664 --> 00:31:26.054
The kid who wants a bike
is going to get a bike.

00:31:26.054 --> 00:31:28.054
And why can't he have a wig?

00:31:28.064 --> 00:31:29.694
Cause he wants to dress up like that.

00:31:29.784 --> 00:31:30.744
This doesn't matter.

00:31:30.754 --> 00:31:32.724
Like, you know, it's a
toy, toys, toys, toys.

00:31:33.044 --> 00:31:35.744
And you know, that was a huge thing.

00:31:35.804 --> 00:31:36.884
Clothes, clothes, clothes that clothes.

00:31:36.914 --> 00:31:39.504
And, you know, he always gravitated
towards those sorts of things and

00:31:39.504 --> 00:31:41.444
to bright cut, like, you know,
and it wasn't because yeah, it

00:31:41.444 --> 00:31:42.664
was in any sort of gendered thing.

00:31:42.664 --> 00:31:44.324
It's just, that's the things
he enjoyed playing with.

00:31:44.324 --> 00:31:44.744
And so.

00:31:44.804 --> 00:31:47.884
My, I mean, my parents have definitely
come around, but that took a really

00:31:47.884 --> 00:31:50.494
long time and they were much better
with the, the second lot with the, my

00:31:50.494 --> 00:31:53.776
nephews, you know, in like, you know,
that they'll buy them dolls and things

00:31:53.776 --> 00:31:56.496
like that because, you know, kids
like to play with all sorts of things.

00:31:56.496 --> 00:31:58.186
It's, you know, it's the kids, right?

00:31:58.336 --> 00:31:58.566
Yeah.

00:31:58.596 --> 00:31:59.096
Um,

00:31:59.216 --> 00:32:00.426
Sam: Oh, I played with dolls too.

00:32:00.826 --> 00:32:00.976
It

00:32:00.986 --> 00:32:04.626
Joe: was also, what is the value that
you're trying to pass on to your children?

00:32:05.476 --> 00:32:09.146
Ali: They don't have to be limited or
restricted to playing only with Lego

00:32:09.146 --> 00:32:11.986
because you're a boy or you only get to
play with toy cars because you're a boy.

00:32:12.516 --> 00:32:14.876
Or you're only allowed to play
with Barbies if you're a girl.

00:32:14.886 --> 00:32:17.006
Like I very much grew up
in a house where it was.

00:32:17.586 --> 00:32:20.746
Barbies and dolls and, you
know, girly things, having

00:32:20.746 --> 00:32:22.586
a sister and no boys around.

00:32:22.586 --> 00:32:25.076
So, and I was not that kind of kid.

00:32:25.076 --> 00:32:29.116
I very much gravitated towards, I
was a bit of a tomboy or whatever.

00:32:29.116 --> 00:32:32.556
And so I, you know, I wanted to, you
know, I wanted to play with dinosaurs

00:32:32.556 --> 00:32:33.906
and, you know, and space thing.

00:32:33.916 --> 00:32:34.416
That was my thing.

00:32:34.426 --> 00:32:35.866
I was space and dinosaurs.

00:32:35.916 --> 00:32:40.236
That was the stuff I wanted to, you know,
and would talk at kids, you know, about.

00:32:41.446 --> 00:32:43.706
But yeah, I was not so much a Barbie kid.

00:32:43.706 --> 00:32:45.426
And then, you know, my
son, like, you know.

00:32:45.921 --> 00:32:48.671
I mean, and I, and I feel terrible
for thinking this, but I remember

00:32:48.671 --> 00:32:50.761
when I was pregnant, I was like, Oh
my God, yes, someone is going to play

00:32:50.761 --> 00:32:52.251
Lego with me and all these things.

00:32:53.331 --> 00:32:56.481
He was never really into Lego
as much as he was into Barbies.

00:32:56.481 --> 00:32:57.521
He just really loved.

00:32:58.151 --> 00:32:58.271
Yeah.

00:32:58.271 --> 00:32:58.451
Cause.

00:32:58.451 --> 00:33:01.361
And, and I mean, but at the same time
I was like, well, I'm not going to deny

00:33:01.361 --> 00:33:03.772
him, the toys he wants to play with.

00:33:03.772 --> 00:33:04.702
Like he always, yeah.

00:33:04.702 --> 00:33:07.482
From a really young age, he'd always
had Barbies and toys like that because

00:33:07.482 --> 00:33:09.962
that's as soon as he could ask for
those things, that's what he asked for.

00:33:09.992 --> 00:33:11.932
So yeah, I think that's really.

00:33:12.287 --> 00:33:15.570
Like you said, they're going to be
marketed to, from a really young age.

00:33:15.590 --> 00:33:19.565
And I think we were, we were lucky in that
we were quite protective of that to, to

00:33:19.565 --> 00:33:21.125
a point, as long as, you know, we could.

00:33:21.155 --> 00:33:22.645
And then, you know, obviously
it's at school and kinder.

00:33:23.845 --> 00:33:24.575
Those sorts of things, yeah.

00:33:24.655 --> 00:33:25.005
That's right,

00:33:25.005 --> 00:33:28.045
Sam: I forgot to say, yeah, sugar,
screens and advertising, limit those

00:33:28.045 --> 00:33:32.085
as much as possible in the early
years and it will pay off hugely,

00:33:32.315 --> 00:33:34.055
like, it's going to creep in anyway.

00:33:34.245 --> 00:33:34.565
So what's

00:33:34.685 --> 00:33:37.214
Joe: next then Sam, you've done
that to the best of your ability,

00:33:37.214 --> 00:33:40.450
now the youngest one's five,
you've got two years left to shape.

00:33:41.180 --> 00:33:44.140
Then you've shaped the other
one as best as you can to seven.

00:33:44.190 --> 00:33:44.670
Mm hmm.

00:33:44.780 --> 00:33:45.430
We've done

00:33:45.430 --> 00:33:45.650
Sam: it.

00:33:45.750 --> 00:33:46.080
Mm hmm.

00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:49.290
Well, well, let's say that I'm the
thing the larger thing I'm pointing to

00:33:49.290 --> 00:33:54.100
with all these examples of you know,
sugar and Gendering and all of this.

00:33:54.220 --> 00:33:57.733
It's not really about those things
in particular what it's about It's

00:33:57.733 --> 00:34:02.653
about freedom in a meaningful sense
like not just individual freedom,

00:34:02.653 --> 00:34:10.920
but actually Putting in place The
intellectual and physical substrata

00:34:10.970 --> 00:34:14.890
you need to actually have something
resembling meaningful freedom.

00:34:15.730 --> 00:34:19.790
So the assault of advertising,
the effect of sugar on behaviour

00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.220
and so on, and gendering.

00:34:22.250 --> 00:34:24.040
To me, all of that is counter to freedom.

00:34:24.370 --> 00:34:26.740
And people will say, oh, but they love it.

00:34:27.050 --> 00:34:29.980
Okay, but there's actually
a compulsion here.

00:34:30.325 --> 00:34:32.295
And where there's compulsion,
there's a lack of freedom.

00:34:32.745 --> 00:34:36.835
So I think one of the big things that
was driving my parenting was trying to

00:34:36.835 --> 00:34:39.187
avoid addiction pathways, basically.

00:34:39.187 --> 00:34:42.377
So I think that's, you know,
for you, you wanted to avoid the

00:34:42.517 --> 00:34:44.117
violence and things like that.

00:34:44.647 --> 00:34:45.277
Totally fair.

00:34:45.597 --> 00:34:47.777
And it sounds like that
effort was very successful.

00:34:47.997 --> 00:34:51.319
It remains to be seen, you know, how
successful my efforts to, at the very

00:34:51.319 --> 00:34:55.659
least, avoid Cultivating addiction
pathways within the kids, if I could

00:34:55.669 --> 00:34:59.559
help it, and there's a lot of great
science on this, lots of screen and

00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:03.129
lots of sugar early on, helps build
those addiction pathways later.

00:35:03.419 --> 00:35:06.969
Now, the addiction pathways are
there, though, anyway, so you can't

00:35:06.979 --> 00:35:11.359
just have a, you can't just keep
the environment sanitary, right?

00:35:11.403 --> 00:35:16.600
What you, this prohibition First
phase, that led eventually into a more

00:35:16.600 --> 00:35:20.010
realistic assessment of, well, these
influences are going to be there.

00:35:20.200 --> 00:35:23.820
Now I have to help them to navigate
it and moderate sort of use.

00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:25.420
Yeah, I have to help them with moderation.

00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:27.500
Am I in a position to
help them with moderation?

00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:29.620
Oh, what do I need to
learn about moderation?

00:35:29.650 --> 00:35:31.010
So this is what I really want to say.

00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:34.860
I actually went from going, I'm
going to control the environment

00:35:35.190 --> 00:35:36.680
and then I'm going to transmit this.

00:35:36.806 --> 00:35:38.466
Now, I've given up.

00:35:38.906 --> 00:35:42.056
On that second one, I still think
it's worth trying to control

00:35:42.056 --> 00:35:43.226
the environment to a degree.

00:35:43.616 --> 00:35:49.556
But what I now, I'm on my focus 90% of the
time, is trying to be in the moment with

00:35:49.556 --> 00:35:54.776
them and to negotiate the things as they
arise and then just listen and respond.

00:35:55.256 --> 00:35:58.946
And now look, actually, I don't
think at any point I said, here,

00:35:58.946 --> 00:36:00.236
sit down and listen to this music.

00:36:00.236 --> 00:36:01.316
I've actually never done that.

00:36:01.439 --> 00:36:04.929
My left wing environmental politics
and gender politics have come

00:36:04.929 --> 00:36:06.809
in just, but fairly organically.

00:36:06.849 --> 00:36:12.309
I haven't lectured or laid it out, given
them a manifesto to live by, but I have

00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:18.140
tried to actually more and more over time
be led by their interests and so whatever

00:36:18.240 --> 00:36:23.470
they get into, I get into it as well and
learn about it and see the value in it

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.430
and then just try to sort of maximize.

00:36:26.508 --> 00:36:29.738
The good stuff that's coming
out of Pokemon or coming out of,

00:36:29.827 --> 00:36:31.297
dolls, you know, or whatever.

00:36:31.457 --> 00:36:37.114
And so the thing I'm really trying to
transmit is, people working together

00:36:37.164 --> 00:36:43.324
to help each other through this
difficult and fascinating journey.

00:36:43.564 --> 00:36:46.054
That's, that's really the value
that I'm trying to transmit.

00:36:46.104 --> 00:36:48.874
I don't actually have universal,
long lasting, permanent

00:36:48.894 --> 00:36:50.214
answers that I can give them.

00:36:50.809 --> 00:36:51.179
Do I?

00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:52.189
No.

00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:52.819
We'd never

00:36:52.979 --> 00:36:54.079
Ali: say it.

00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.629
But like, yeah, no, I think
that's, it's very similar.

00:36:56.629 --> 00:36:59.883
And like, I remember my son's
father saying that there, and I

00:36:59.893 --> 00:37:00.693
Sam: say sorry a lot.

00:37:01.028 --> 00:37:02.028
Forgetting things wrong.

00:37:02.158 --> 00:37:04.368
And I say, here's what I
got wrong and here's why.

00:37:04.378 --> 00:37:06.328
And here's what I'm going to
try and do better next time.

00:37:06.418 --> 00:37:06.908
So yeah.

00:37:06.908 --> 00:37:07.178
Yeah.

00:37:07.458 --> 00:37:07.618
And

00:37:08.128 --> 00:37:09.658
Ali: I say learning to
apologize in front of your kid.

00:37:09.668 --> 00:37:10.958
That's a huge, that was a huge thing.

00:37:10.958 --> 00:37:12.138
And yeah, I do it all the time.

00:37:12.288 --> 00:37:12.578
Yeah.

00:37:12.578 --> 00:37:13.738
Like I, yeah, I do too.

00:37:13.738 --> 00:37:16.588
And like, it's never something
I heard growing up, but my son's

00:37:16.588 --> 00:37:19.348
father, I remember him saying
that like, there are enough.

00:37:19.998 --> 00:37:21.468
Pricks and assholes in the world.

00:37:22.248 --> 00:37:24.018
, we don't wanna be putting Yeah.

00:37:24.078 --> 00:37:25.428
Like another one out there.

00:37:25.428 --> 00:37:27.198
That was like our
biggest goal was Oh yeah.

00:37:27.198 --> 00:37:29.928
We just didn't want to
raise an asshole as a child.

00:37:29.928 --> 00:37:30.048
Oh man.

00:37:30.168 --> 00:37:31.848
And so that, so important.

00:37:31.848 --> 00:37:33.708
Like that was and yeah, for their sake.

00:37:33.708 --> 00:37:34.323
For God's sake, yeah.

00:37:34.323 --> 00:37:34.848
For, yeah.

00:37:34.848 --> 00:37:36.123
And like everyone else.

00:37:36.128 --> 00:37:38.628
And I'm enormously proud of
him and like, and my kid is.

00:37:38.983 --> 00:37:43.193
You know, and every parents, you know,
yeah, like, you know, my child's amazing.

00:37:43.193 --> 00:37:46.053
And I love, you know, they say this
and that or whatever, but like I, it

00:37:46.053 --> 00:37:48.043
is, it has been constantly reinforced.

00:37:48.043 --> 00:37:50.513
Like, Oh you, his mom, like, you
know, you know, he came up to me,

00:37:50.523 --> 00:37:52.893
you know, my little preppy and was
helped him, you know, the other day,

00:37:52.893 --> 00:37:54.183
you know, get to class or whatever.

00:37:54.183 --> 00:37:58.383
And like, he's always been that kid
that's always stepped in to help.

00:37:58.623 --> 00:38:01.303
And I think like, that's
the thing I'm most proud of.

00:38:01.303 --> 00:38:02.283
That's what you want to see.

00:38:02.283 --> 00:38:02.553
Yeah.

00:38:03.163 --> 00:38:03.893
I remember this one time.

00:38:04.968 --> 00:38:09.028
and he came up to me and he had this
like box of like biscuits and there was

00:38:09.028 --> 00:38:13.338
a sticker on the top and it said free
and I was like what the, what is this?

00:38:13.338 --> 00:38:16.688
And like he's like the lady at the bakery
gave me to them I was like Like, what?

00:38:16.738 --> 00:38:20.308
Like, what do you, why on earth would
she give you this box of biscuits?

00:38:20.648 --> 00:38:21.168
Anyway.

00:38:21.218 --> 00:38:22.048
What sorcery is this?

00:38:22.048 --> 00:38:22.248
Yeah.

00:38:22.248 --> 00:38:25.608
So I walked past the bakery and I
was like, did you give these to him?

00:38:25.608 --> 00:38:27.888
And she was like, Oh yeah, he
comes in here every morning before

00:38:27.888 --> 00:38:29.008
school and has a chat to me.

00:38:29.008 --> 00:38:30.168
And he's always so polite.

00:38:30.398 --> 00:38:31.848
And she goes, I had
these leftover biscuits.

00:38:31.848 --> 00:38:33.278
And so I just thought
I'll give them to him.

00:38:33.668 --> 00:38:34.858
Like that is my kid.

00:38:34.858 --> 00:38:39.398
Like he's, he's that nice, kind,
sociable, lovely little kid.

00:38:39.418 --> 00:38:41.138
And so I think that, yeah.

00:38:41.384 --> 00:38:44.333
I just didn't ever, yeah, like, you
know, and that's not to say he can't

00:38:44.383 --> 00:38:47.683
be an arsehole or can't be a prick, you
know, all teenagers, yeah, I want him

00:38:47.683 --> 00:38:50.773
to be able to bite back or to say stuff
or like, you know, to pull people up.

00:38:50.783 --> 00:38:54.743
But for the most part, he is
such a jet, like a kind kid.

00:38:54.743 --> 00:38:58.353
And that was his dad and I, that was such
a huge thing for us is that we wanted to

00:38:58.493 --> 00:39:02.883
put another kind person out there because,
and it's not all about him all the time.

00:39:02.883 --> 00:39:04.263
And I think there's this misconception.

00:39:04.658 --> 00:39:07.028
Particularly too, with only
children being Oh, for sure.

00:39:07.028 --> 00:39:07.928
Selfish or, yeah.

00:39:07.928 --> 00:39:09.848
You know that they're not, you
know, community minded or Well,

00:39:09.848 --> 00:39:10.988
you've done your best to, yeah.

00:39:10.988 --> 00:39:12.878
Like, we've really tried to be that.

00:39:12.878 --> 00:39:14.798
It's, it's not just
about you all the time.

00:39:14.803 --> 00:39:18.098
Like, you know, whether it was in the
family dynamic that was, you are one of

00:39:18.098 --> 00:39:20.828
three, or if you're in the big family,
like, you know, it's what, you're one

00:39:20.828 --> 00:39:24.008
of 10 or you're in the class, you're
one of 25, your whole life shouldn't

00:39:24.008 --> 00:39:25.118
Sam: be determined just by that.

00:39:25.118 --> 00:39:25.613
Yeah, that's right.

00:39:25.613 --> 00:39:25.813
Yeah.

00:39:25.813 --> 00:39:26.013
It's

00:39:26.013 --> 00:39:27.788
Ali: just, you know, you,
you are a part of, yeah.

00:39:27.878 --> 00:39:28.178
Mm-Hmm.

00:39:28.268 --> 00:39:28.298
I

00:39:28.298 --> 00:39:30.898
Joe: feel like kindness is
the universal value that most

00:39:30.898 --> 00:39:32.278
people talk about the most now.

00:39:32.488 --> 00:39:35.788
Yeah, I think that's a huge
thing in the culture, focus on

00:39:35.788 --> 00:39:37.318
Sam: hashtag kindness.

00:39:37.358 --> 00:39:39.338
And again, I don't think
kindness is a simple matter.

00:39:39.388 --> 00:39:39.588
I'll

00:39:39.588 --> 00:39:39.748
Ali: say.

00:39:40.478 --> 00:39:42.538
And it's hard to be kind sometimes.

00:39:42.548 --> 00:39:44.998
Like sometimes you don't want to
be kind or it doesn't feel natural

00:39:44.998 --> 00:39:45.188
Sam: to be kind.

00:39:45.188 --> 00:39:48.858
And sometimes what we think is
kindness is actually unhelpful and

00:39:48.858 --> 00:39:49.258
Ali: vice versa.

00:39:49.988 --> 00:39:50.878
So, you know, it's.

00:39:51.548 --> 00:39:53.018
learning the nuance around that.

00:39:53.148 --> 00:39:54.038
What's a better value

00:39:54.038 --> 00:39:54.658
Joe: than kindness?

00:39:54.738 --> 00:39:55.108
I don't

00:39:55.118 --> 00:39:56.989
Sam: think there is a, if we
have to pick a single bloody

00:39:56.989 --> 00:39:58.549
word, yeah, then that one's fine.

00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:00.069
Probably the best one, isn't it?

00:40:00.179 --> 00:40:00.509
Look, I

00:40:00.509 --> 00:40:03.469
Joe: think any, I think any, simplest
sense without complicating it.

00:40:03.529 --> 00:40:03.769
I'm all

00:40:03.769 --> 00:40:04.619
Sam: about dialectic.

00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:08.199
Any single word philosophy
is faulty at its core.

00:40:08.269 --> 00:40:09.059
It just doesn't matter.

00:40:09.059 --> 00:40:10.159
What does dialectic mean?

00:40:10.399 --> 00:40:13.639
That everything exists in
relation to other things.

00:40:14.124 --> 00:40:15.684
So what does kindness mean?

00:40:15.984 --> 00:40:17.684
Well, what are we defining it against?

00:40:17.934 --> 00:40:18.704
Capitalism.

00:40:18.844 --> 00:40:19.404
Well, sure.

00:40:19.504 --> 00:40:19.924
Okay.

00:40:20.164 --> 00:40:24.769
But when we say You know, sometimes you
see, be kind and it's delivered through

00:40:24.799 --> 00:40:26.279
gritted teeth, you know what I'm saying?

00:40:26.279 --> 00:40:26.839
So, yeah,

00:40:26.839 --> 00:40:29.289
Ali: there's no point in
just pretending to be kind or

00:40:29.289 --> 00:40:30.819
giving the face of being kind.

00:40:30.839 --> 00:40:32.759
You have to actually be

00:40:32.769 --> 00:40:33.139
Sam: kind.

00:40:33.149 --> 00:40:34.069
Actual kindness.

00:40:34.109 --> 00:40:36.149
There's a slogan or real kindness or I

00:40:36.149 --> 00:40:36.399
Ali: don't know.

00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:39.829
Wanted and appreciated like this,
you know, you could be trying to be

00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:42.909
kind to somebody who it's absolutely
not appropriate to be kind in that

00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:43.239
Joe: moment.

00:40:43.249 --> 00:40:46.739
See, my 14 year old has an edge to
her, which I recognize as my own.

00:40:47.469 --> 00:40:52.669
And I like that edge, but a 10 year old
would have no idea how to do anything

00:40:52.669 --> 00:40:53.189
Sam: other than be kind.

00:40:53.189 --> 00:40:54.699
So you want to critique kindness also?

00:40:54.749 --> 00:40:55.209
That's good.

00:40:55.219 --> 00:40:55.679
That's a healthy instinct.

00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:55.839
Not

00:40:55.839 --> 00:40:56.359
Joe: really.

00:40:56.389 --> 00:41:01.299
I mean, I was still strongly, and
I've been talking to her about,

00:41:01.309 --> 00:41:04.869
you know, difficult politics with,
you know, people at her school.

00:41:05.201 --> 00:41:10.321
I've emphasized that you need to be kind
to people like, even if they're not kind

00:41:10.321 --> 00:41:14.181
to you, you, like as hard as that is,
or if you can't be kind back to them,

00:41:14.181 --> 00:41:18.641
go and find someone else and be kind to
them, but don't turn it into a flame war,

00:41:18.651 --> 00:41:20.401
Sam: you know, resentment,
avoid resentments.

00:41:20.441 --> 00:41:21.051
Yeah.

00:41:21.051 --> 00:41:21.391
Yeah.

00:41:21.391 --> 00:41:21.611
Yeah.

00:41:22.121 --> 00:41:22.551
Um,

00:41:22.591 --> 00:41:23.201
Joe: there's that one again.

00:41:23.201 --> 00:41:25.501
But I, look, I thought
about this topic all week.

00:41:25.551 --> 00:41:25.931
Oh good.

00:41:26.686 --> 00:41:30.205
And, which I know you don't
do Sam, but, I think about

00:41:30.265 --> 00:41:31.505
Sam: everything all the time,

00:41:32.245 --> 00:41:33.605
Joe: um, but no, you're right.

00:41:33.635 --> 00:41:38.105
And in terms of what I most want
to pass on to my kids, it is to be

00:41:38.475 --> 00:41:44.545
very curious about the nature of
consciousness and be very curious

00:41:44.545 --> 00:41:50.055
about what this is you're experiencing
and don't let it be defined for you.

00:41:51.115 --> 00:41:53.175
As you are an individual.

00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:57.790
with a certain identity, having
a certain finite experience.

00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.140
I know, we're in complete
agreement on that.

00:41:59.140 --> 00:42:06.690
Stay open to the openness of consciousness
and start to learn how open it is

00:42:06.720 --> 00:42:11.810
and realize That you're not, things
are not what they first seem, and you

00:42:11.810 --> 00:42:16.090
need to explore that, and re explore
that, and have experiences with that.

00:42:16.620 --> 00:42:20.150
That's what I most want to pass on
to my children, which is why I gave

00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:23.820
Scarlet the power of now, because
it encapsulates it very well.

00:42:24.530 --> 00:42:29.800
About coming into the present moment as
a spiritual practice, and then having

00:42:29.970 --> 00:42:32.690
a profound experience of consciousness.

00:42:33.325 --> 00:42:36.955
As a sort of God consciousness,
I guess, which is open, which

00:42:36.955 --> 00:42:37.915
is what everyone's having.

00:42:37.915 --> 00:42:40.115
It's just, most people never recognize it.

00:42:40.125 --> 00:42:40.705
Well, that's what

00:42:40.705 --> 00:42:44.645
Sam: my mother was trying to transmit
to me as well, pretty much exactly.

00:42:44.728 --> 00:42:50.178
The, the value of compassion and kindness
and the, uh, cultivate God consciousness.

00:42:50.178 --> 00:42:52.038
That's what she was trying
to get across to me.

00:42:52.048 --> 00:42:54.898
And that all religions were on
the same page in most respects.

00:42:54.928 --> 00:43:00.368
And that everybody walks a hard road
and, you know, kindness and God is

00:43:00.368 --> 00:43:01.588
how we're going to get through this.

00:43:01.638 --> 00:43:04.298
And yeah, you and her would have
gotten along famously, I'm sure.

00:43:04.698 --> 00:43:06.418
And well now, but not 10 years ago.

00:43:06.428 --> 00:43:06.718
Maybe

00:43:06.718 --> 00:43:06.928
Joe: not.

00:43:06.928 --> 00:43:07.508
Oh God, no.

00:43:07.508 --> 00:43:09.065
Not when I was a hardline

00:43:09.065 --> 00:43:09.324
Sam: atheist.

00:43:09.324 --> 00:43:09.584
No.

00:43:09.584 --> 00:43:09.843
Yeah.

00:43:10.073 --> 00:43:14.233
No, but you guys would have had a
great time talking about pantheism

00:43:14.233 --> 00:43:17.853
and syncretism and meditation and, you
know, mantra and prayer and all of that.

00:43:18.203 --> 00:43:20.493
And you know, she played That's

00:43:20.493 --> 00:43:25.643
Joe: the stuff, the consciousness
expansion stuff is the stuff I wish I'd

00:43:25.643 --> 00:43:31.203
found earlier and a spiritual life I wish
I'd found much, much earlier in my life.

00:43:31.838 --> 00:43:37.461
Uh, you know, the last episode I was kind
of berating Ali to try and get her to at

00:43:37.461 --> 00:43:46.308
least open the door just a little bit to
all of this, you know, but you can't, and

00:43:46.308 --> 00:43:49.828
I can't do it with my children either,
like they might both be hardline atheists.

00:43:50.148 --> 00:43:50.638
I've got good

00:43:50.638 --> 00:43:53.018
Sam: news, Joe, I've
detected, I've not had to.

00:43:53.353 --> 00:43:56.333
Get my oldest to like, you know,
probably open the doors of perception,

00:43:56.363 --> 00:44:00.828
Aldous Huxley, and you know, critique
conceptual reality and connect with the

00:44:00.888 --> 00:44:04.348
divine and the one, he, he just does it.

00:44:04.648 --> 00:44:07.388
Like he comes out with, yeah,
he just comes out with stuff and

00:44:07.388 --> 00:44:08.768
I'm like, oh yeah, you get it.

00:44:09.188 --> 00:44:10.748
I don't really need to tell you anything.

00:44:11.228 --> 00:44:15.028
Like, he asks the kind of questions, I'm
like, no, no, you've You've got this.

00:44:15.338 --> 00:44:18.098
The only time I have to,
maybe it was like, Oh, okay.

00:44:18.328 --> 00:44:20.118
Some of these questions are heavy.

00:44:20.388 --> 00:44:22.728
Like you don't need to hold them heavily.

00:44:23.338 --> 00:44:24.958
Like, you know, it's okay.

00:44:25.638 --> 00:44:28.338
These questions are, they're
no, they're actually not

00:44:28.348 --> 00:44:29.778
heavier than any other question.

00:44:30.028 --> 00:44:31.048
Like what to have for dinner.

00:44:31.048 --> 00:44:32.428
Now that's a heavy question.

00:44:32.818 --> 00:44:35.481
You know, if the universe
would have existed, if, you

00:44:35.481 --> 00:44:36.898
know what, what's for dinner.

00:44:36.898 --> 00:44:41.433
Now that's a hard question, you know, but
all these questions are one, is what I'm

00:44:41.433 --> 00:44:43.418
saying, but you're asking the right ones.

00:44:43.588 --> 00:44:44.588
You know, good kid.

00:44:44.689 --> 00:44:48.779
and certainly that, and it points back
to that thing I was trying to say earlier

00:44:48.809 --> 00:44:53.454
about like avoiding the simplistic
and, living with others in connection

00:44:53.454 --> 00:44:58.004
and living in connection to concepts
as all just connections rather than

00:44:58.054 --> 00:44:59.844
absolute things that stand on their own.

00:45:00.284 --> 00:45:05.084
And so for me, the point of all that
is the practice of meaningful freedom.

00:45:05.334 --> 00:45:08.314
And you're looking for that in
a spiritual direction, which is.

00:45:09.164 --> 00:45:14.474
Not a bad, uh, instinct and me, I'm kind
of maybe looking at it a little bit more

00:45:15.304 --> 00:45:17.434
materialistically, but not entirely.

00:45:17.434 --> 00:45:19.434
Like I'm really interested
in phenomenology and

00:45:19.434 --> 00:45:20.044
Joe: psychology.

00:45:20.134 --> 00:45:22.284
So hang on, you want your
children to experience maximum

00:45:22.284 --> 00:45:23.454
freedom in their lifetimes?

00:45:23.544 --> 00:45:23.724
I

00:45:23.764 --> 00:45:25.004
Sam: mean, meaningful freedom.

00:45:25.434 --> 00:45:29.074
I mean, to live the kind of lives
where they're making conscious

00:45:29.134 --> 00:45:34.314
choices based on reflection on
experience and not just being driven

00:45:34.364 --> 00:45:36.564
by desires and fears constantly.

00:45:36.564 --> 00:45:37.564
Joe: So you assume that they have

00:45:37.564 --> 00:45:38.114
Sam: free will?

00:45:39.004 --> 00:45:44.374
Uh, it is an axiomatic, I'm putting
the axiom in there, but I'm really

00:45:44.374 --> 00:45:45.714
avoiding the issue to a degree.

00:45:45.984 --> 00:45:46.344
Yeah.

00:45:47.314 --> 00:45:50.284
As much as, look, I've got a couple
of very brilliant friends, including

00:45:50.284 --> 00:45:54.954
you that I have destroyed free will in
front of me many times, but I stubbornly

00:45:55.564 --> 00:45:56.364
Joe: persist with the illusion of it.

00:45:58.164 --> 00:46:00.344
It's another one of those
useful illusions, I think.

00:46:00.454 --> 00:46:01.154
I agree.

00:46:01.164 --> 00:46:05.264
It's hard to run any other operating
system, so even though it's not

00:46:05.274 --> 00:46:09.184
real, you may as well just act
as if you have choices, you know.

00:46:09.184 --> 00:46:12.434
And I certainly experience things
as if I'm making decisions.

00:46:12.874 --> 00:46:15.624
Whether I could ever have made a
different decision, I'll never know.

00:46:15.694 --> 00:46:18.124
Sam: Well, correct, because what
we're both pointing to here is

00:46:18.314 --> 00:46:19.904
a functional common morality.

00:46:20.209 --> 00:46:23.869
And like, we can't, I don't understand
how you're supposed to operate.

00:46:23.879 --> 00:46:26.649
Joe: That's why I don't think
kindness is actually that complicated,

00:46:26.979 --> 00:46:29.529
because generally we know the
difference between right and wrong.

00:46:29.583 --> 00:46:31.633
Sam: That's one thing,
okay, but also So, the

00:46:31.633 --> 00:46:32.553
Joe: morality, I would

00:46:32.553 --> 00:46:34.443
Sam: say, is I have to
make sure the conscience

00:46:34.443 --> 00:46:34.793
Joe: develops properly.

00:46:34.793 --> 00:46:38.903
The morality is, for most of us, is
pretty hardwired and, you know, we

00:46:38.933 --> 00:46:39.423
Ali: Yes, yes.

00:46:39.503 --> 00:46:42.243
No, but the sense of right and wrong
will very much come from the things

00:46:42.253 --> 00:46:45.503
that you experience and observe and
what you're told is right and wrong.

00:46:46.248 --> 00:46:48.998
Joe: For teenagers, we'll have a
stronger sense of it than we will.

00:46:49.107 --> 00:46:49.987
yeah, yes, true.

00:46:50.037 --> 00:46:53.167
Why they often speak with such
clarity on things like climate change.

00:46:53.167 --> 00:46:53.517
Yes.

00:46:53.517 --> 00:46:54.637
Like, well, this is wrong.

00:46:55.187 --> 00:46:55.597
Sam: Yes.

00:46:55.847 --> 00:46:59.207
But again, but they're shaped and guided
by the discourse around them as well.

00:46:59.237 --> 00:47:00.077
Cause you have

00:47:00.077 --> 00:47:02.417
Ali: like, yeah, somebody who's
grown up, say in like a far right.

00:47:02.712 --> 00:47:05.922
Christian, you know, white
nationalist kind of experience.

00:47:05.922 --> 00:47:06.222
They will feel

00:47:06.222 --> 00:47:08.402
Sam: very strongly that
homosexuality is bad.

00:47:08.402 --> 00:47:08.762
Yeah, exactly.

00:47:08.842 --> 00:47:10.652
It will invoke that same sense of justice.

00:47:10.652 --> 00:47:11.222
So the

00:47:11.222 --> 00:47:14.162
Joe: way that Adam says right and
wrong aligns with your values?

00:47:14.742 --> 00:47:15.452
Ali: Yeah, very similar.

00:47:15.452 --> 00:47:16.672
I mean, we do have disagreements.

00:47:16.672 --> 00:47:17.782
Joe: Yeah, you guys are probably right.

00:47:17.782 --> 00:47:18.142
Yeah.

00:47:18.652 --> 00:47:19.622
Maybe it's not hard wired.

00:47:19.622 --> 00:47:20.612
Maybe it's just conditioned

00:47:20.612 --> 00:47:20.872
Sam: into them.

00:47:20.982 --> 00:47:26.032
I think the chemical pathways are the
biological substrate, but then the inputs.

00:47:26.032 --> 00:47:26.192
The

00:47:26.192 --> 00:47:26.842
Ali: inputs are different.

00:47:26.842 --> 00:47:27.042
Yeah.

00:47:27.042 --> 00:47:27.612
Is Adam quite woke?

00:47:28.837 --> 00:47:29.607
Joe: Yes, like me.

00:47:29.617 --> 00:47:29.757
Yeah.

00:47:29.777 --> 00:47:30.377
Hell woke.

00:47:30.417 --> 00:47:30.847
Yes.

00:47:31.207 --> 00:47:31.427
Yeah.

00:47:31.487 --> 00:47:33.227
But, but he's also Are you
a self identifier as woke?

00:47:33.897 --> 00:47:33.917
Yeah.

00:47:34.977 --> 00:47:36.147
Ali: But like I think he's also

00:47:36.207 --> 00:47:37.497
Joe: He might be the
only person in the world.

00:47:37.587 --> 00:47:37.777
Okay.

00:47:37.777 --> 00:47:39.607
No, but

00:47:39.607 --> 00:47:40.017
Ali: like as in

00:47:40.017 --> 00:47:43.557
Sam: like The original meaning
of woke Joe was exactly the thing

00:47:43.557 --> 00:47:46.737
you're talking about, being aware
that reality's not simple and

00:47:46.777 --> 00:47:47.247
Ali: you know.

00:47:47.677 --> 00:47:49.480
And I just, I don't know.

00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:52.917
I mean, yeah, I think he's, but
I think he's got a bit more of a

00:47:52.917 --> 00:47:55.257
nuanced take than I'd say your average

00:47:55.307 --> 00:47:55.797
Sam: woke.

00:47:55.867 --> 00:47:56.127
Yeah.

00:47:56.257 --> 00:47:57.370
He's not a libtard.

00:47:57.370 --> 00:47:58.053
Is

00:47:58.053 --> 00:48:00.437
Joe: politics essentially
identity politics?

00:48:01.467 --> 00:48:03.697
Sam: No, no, I would say
he's more of a socialist.

00:48:03.747 --> 00:48:04.077
Yeah, he's

00:48:04.077 --> 00:48:04.397
Ali: a socialist.

00:48:04.397 --> 00:48:04.697
Yeah.

00:48:04.777 --> 00:48:05.507
Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:05.537 --> 00:48:06.637
So he

00:48:06.647 --> 00:48:08.347
Sam: working class is
the identity you need.

00:48:08.387 --> 00:48:08.777
Yeah.

00:48:08.777 --> 00:48:09.117
Yeah.

00:48:10.437 --> 00:48:11.967
Ali: So no, I think,
yeah, he's proletariat.

00:48:12.037 --> 00:48:13.077
He's very, very much.

00:48:13.077 --> 00:48:13.427
Yeah.

00:48:13.487 --> 00:48:16.407
And very well read on it
and, and interested in it.

00:48:16.497 --> 00:48:16.827
Sam: Oh yeah.

00:48:16.827 --> 00:48:17.817
They're going to kick some shit off

00:48:17.867 --> 00:48:18.407
Ali: those guys.

00:48:18.457 --> 00:48:18.737
Yeah.

00:48:18.917 --> 00:48:19.167
Yeah.

00:48:19.167 --> 00:48:22.167
I mean, I feel really
hopeful like I, and yeah.

00:48:22.167 --> 00:48:24.287
And it's, and like I said, I think
it comes from a considered place.

00:48:24.287 --> 00:48:28.377
I don't think he's just parroting news
that he's heard from either his parents

00:48:28.377 --> 00:48:29.457
or from what he's heard at school.

00:48:29.457 --> 00:48:30.387
I think he's very much.

00:48:31.052 --> 00:48:34.052
The kind of kid who will want to,
you know, it has been also raised.

00:48:34.052 --> 00:48:38.682
I think we have tried to, to question
things and to, you know, to do your own

00:48:38.692 --> 00:48:40.702
research and come to your own conclusion.

00:48:40.702 --> 00:48:42.622
And I feel like Critical kindness.

00:48:42.672 --> 00:48:43.022
There we go.

00:48:43.242 --> 00:48:43.872
Critical kindness.

00:48:43.872 --> 00:48:44.752
Yeah, very much.

00:48:44.752 --> 00:48:48.146
Like I think he's been, and feels
confident enough, you know, when he,

00:48:48.146 --> 00:48:50.576
yeah, there have been things that
he's like, Oh, I mean, I don't know

00:48:50.576 --> 00:48:52.386
how I feel about that or like, yeah.

00:48:52.386 --> 00:48:54.096
And you know, or is this right?

00:48:54.096 --> 00:48:54.656
Or not just.

00:48:55.171 --> 00:48:58.951
For the sake of it, but for the
genuine, what is the right, you

00:48:58.951 --> 00:49:00.691
know, way to move forward with this.

00:49:00.721 --> 00:49:01.051
Yeah.

00:49:01.141 --> 00:49:01.361
Yeah.

00:49:01.391 --> 00:49:04.641
Sam: That's one way I try to help is to
like, try and get the kids, cause this is

00:49:04.641 --> 00:49:09.271
the thing I've been learning only myself
more recently, try and stop and notice

00:49:09.271 --> 00:49:10.941
like what's happening inside me right now.

00:49:10.941 --> 00:49:13.471
Like, um, um, oh, oh, okay.

00:49:13.851 --> 00:49:14.051
Okay.

00:49:14.081 --> 00:49:15.991
Oh, how does that feel right now?

00:49:16.081 --> 00:49:19.081
Like, are you experiencing
confusion or doubt?

00:49:19.091 --> 00:49:20.361
Like, okay, what's that like?

00:49:21.026 --> 00:49:23.216
What are some of the
things you're reaching for?

00:49:23.306 --> 00:49:24.606
Like, what are your first thoughts?

00:49:24.606 --> 00:49:25.606
Okay, do you have any others?

00:49:25.676 --> 00:49:27.756
All right, now let's sort
through those and, you know,

00:49:28.386 --> 00:49:29.616
developing those sort of habits.

00:49:29.616 --> 00:49:32.316
That's what, that's what I'm getting
at with the freedom thing, that we're

00:49:32.316 --> 00:49:38.206
not just slaves to our trauma or our
conditioning or psychosis or neurosis

00:49:38.226 --> 00:49:41.876
Joe: and like Yeah, I mean, what's coming
to me if I had to sum it up pithily

00:49:41.906 --> 00:49:44.206
would be, be, stay curious and stay kind.

00:49:44.206 --> 00:49:46.486
Yeah, that's great, yeah, that works.

00:49:46.556 --> 00:49:47.384
You know The

00:49:47.534 --> 00:49:49.474
Ali: curious, I think, is
actually really important.

00:49:49.484 --> 00:49:52.834
Like, to question and to be
curious and to be involved.

00:49:52.834 --> 00:49:54.474
I think that's, that's really important.

00:49:54.554 --> 00:50:00.004
Joe: I was curious, except for
On matters of spirituality, I

00:50:00.004 --> 00:50:01.744
think that's where I was close.

00:50:01.744 --> 00:50:06.944
I had a closed door now, like all
atheists, otherwise you're an agnostic.

00:50:06.954 --> 00:50:09.114
If you've closed the door,
then you're an atheist.

00:50:09.184 --> 00:50:09.754
I agree with that.

00:50:09.754 --> 00:50:11.374
And you're no longer curious.

00:50:11.414 --> 00:50:14.894
And when you have, when you start having
spiritual experiences, it's going to

00:50:14.894 --> 00:50:15.634
Sam: be a shock.

00:50:15.854 --> 00:50:18.768
Now, but can I ask a more probing
question about that, though?

00:50:18.768 --> 00:50:20.136
Were you not curious?

00:50:20.136 --> 00:50:23.244
You've just said you
weren't curious about it.

00:50:23.244 --> 00:50:26.014
Now, is that the kind of curiosity
that comes from an atheist?

00:50:26.674 --> 00:50:30.354
A complete absence of any understanding
that there's something interesting

00:50:30.354 --> 00:50:33.214
there or a conscious decision.

00:50:33.214 --> 00:50:33.984
There's nothing interesting

00:50:33.984 --> 00:50:34.014
Joe: there.

00:50:34.014 --> 00:50:40.834
I don't look, I would encourage my kids to
take LSD, not now, but when they're older,

00:50:41.054 --> 00:50:42.084
Sam: 25,

00:50:43.024 --> 00:50:44.524
Ali: 28, 35,

00:50:44.524 --> 00:50:48.124
Sam: 40,

00:50:48.124 --> 00:50:51.854
Joe: 40, because that was probably the
most profound thing I learned under

00:50:51.854 --> 00:50:54.094
the age of 21 was what I saw on LSD.

00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:56.699
And I guess that was the part of

00:50:56.699 --> 00:51:00.419
Sam: Neurological development doesn't
really stop at any point, but there's

00:51:00.419 --> 00:51:02.229
a lot of development still going on up

00:51:02.849 --> 00:51:05.329
Joe: 14 take LSD, I'm saying

00:51:05.339 --> 00:51:06.969
Sam: Up to 28, brain development.

00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:08.049
Profound.

00:51:08.309 --> 00:51:12.649
Joe: If you're going to be curious,
there is no Better eight hours you

00:51:12.649 --> 00:51:14.099
can spend than a large dose of LSD.

00:51:14.479 --> 00:51:15.769
Sam: But no, but there's
so many ways to get there.

00:51:17.309 --> 00:51:18.579
Joe: Like, I'll take that to my grade.

00:51:18.589 --> 00:51:19.639
It's fascinating.

00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:20.419
I don't think you should do it all

00:51:20.419 --> 00:51:20.859
Sam: the time.

00:51:21.339 --> 00:51:24.249
Okay, but what can we do now with 10
year olds, for example, or 14 year olds?

00:51:25.399 --> 00:51:28.639
Joe: Well, get them to, you know, read a
book instead of bloody looking at their

00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:28.999
Sam: iPad.

00:51:29.319 --> 00:51:33.519
For sure, read a book, but also
just natural, just good old Socratic

00:51:33.569 --> 00:51:35.589
dialogue, natural philosophy.

00:51:35.939 --> 00:51:39.639
You know, get the glass of
water, put a stick in it.

00:51:40.359 --> 00:51:41.659
Hey kids, what do you notice?

00:51:42.009 --> 00:51:42.259
Oh.

00:51:42.769 --> 00:51:43.679
The stick is bent.

00:51:43.787 --> 00:51:44.837
What the hell's going on there?

00:51:45.347 --> 00:51:47.877
So that's the observation that
Descartes makes at the beginning

00:51:47.877 --> 00:51:49.807
of Meditations on First Philosophy.

00:51:50.837 --> 00:51:52.237
That all sounds really hard to understand.

00:51:52.257 --> 00:51:52.647
It's not.

00:51:52.667 --> 00:51:53.757
It's a very simple book.

00:51:53.794 --> 00:51:56.224
At the end of the day, he just
says, look, notice that the senses

00:51:56.224 --> 00:51:57.754
have misled you on this occasion.

00:51:57.914 --> 00:51:58.704
Does this happen?

00:51:59.214 --> 00:52:02.784
In other things can we trust the senses
ultimately what is the basis of knowledge?

00:52:02.794 --> 00:52:04.214
Joe: You're a teacher I'm not

00:52:05.044 --> 00:52:07.094
Sam: Anyone can put a stick
in a glass of water and say

00:52:07.304 --> 00:52:07.894
Joe: what's going on?

00:52:08.084 --> 00:52:11.664
I just don't engage with my kids that way
or the way that Ali engages with her kid,

00:52:11.804 --> 00:52:16.054
but Something I'm getting something right.

00:52:16.364 --> 00:52:21.104
I agree Yeah, we're playing my natural
game and my natural game is kind of

00:52:21.104 --> 00:52:26.339
like the father on the armchair But
that is a very If you take away the

00:52:26.339 --> 00:52:32.049
patriarchal baggage of that, that's a
very stable thing in two girls lives,

00:52:32.729 --> 00:52:40.109
is this steady, present, father figure,
but I don't get down so much on their

00:52:40.109 --> 00:52:44.329
level, and I never have, I've never,
I've never done all those things you read

00:52:44.329 --> 00:52:47.609
about in the parenting books that make
for great parenting, but I've ended up

00:52:47.619 --> 00:52:51.239
with kids Yeah, who really love me and
I really love them and we have a great

00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:52.749
relationship and they're great kids.

00:52:52.749 --> 00:52:54.559
I mean, I've been reading
their reports this week.

00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:57.929
They're objectively pretty great
kids and they're well socialized

00:52:57.929 --> 00:53:02.279
and And their mom has done
probably about 80 percent of that.

00:53:02.299 --> 00:53:04.939
So, so that's the other things for
the last eight years I've actually

00:53:04.939 --> 00:53:08.529
been in and even before that because
I was the main breadwinner I've always

00:53:08.569 --> 00:53:10.819
only had to play the bit part role.

00:53:10.839 --> 00:53:13.739
Mm hmm But the shock when
Scarlet started reading that

00:53:13.749 --> 00:53:16.984
book was ah, I'm not I matter.

00:53:17.664 --> 00:53:19.614
I actually matter to these children.

00:53:19.644 --> 00:53:20.914
I am influencing them.

00:53:21.484 --> 00:53:24.404
And that's a delusion that I walk
around with a lot, which is that

00:53:24.404 --> 00:53:26.444
I kind of almost don't exist.

00:53:26.834 --> 00:53:27.454
Oh, sure.

00:53:27.554 --> 00:53:27.914
Right?

00:53:28.414 --> 00:53:31.524
So that's, now I'm just like,
it was a real slap in the face.

00:53:31.524 --> 00:53:32.724
Like, fuck, okay.

00:53:32.844 --> 00:53:35.044
And then it was exciting because
it's like, oh, maybe I can find

00:53:35.044 --> 00:53:36.384
some other books and hand them.

00:53:36.884 --> 00:53:38.854
And then, like you said,
talk about the ideas.

00:53:40.144 --> 00:53:44.379
I started talking to Scarlett about
the ideas in The Power of Now and And,

00:53:44.529 --> 00:53:47.469
and she said, well, I've always said
dad, everything happens for a reason.

00:53:48.029 --> 00:53:49.859
I'm like, you never
said that to me before.

00:53:50.249 --> 00:53:52.699
And I was like, I had to go
away and think about that.

00:53:53.069 --> 00:53:57.339
Sam: So what were her first takeaways from
the, like, what was like, do you remember

00:53:57.339 --> 00:53:58.859
anything she said early on in reading it?

00:53:59.449 --> 00:54:04.269
Joe: No, she's, I mean, she's still just
starting out reading it, but she, it

00:54:04.989 --> 00:54:06.369
Sam: just struck a chord
with her immediately.

00:54:06.379 --> 00:54:07.419
It's the kind of thing

00:54:07.419 --> 00:54:11.189
Joe: you either, you're either
interested or you're not.

00:54:12.579 --> 00:54:15.719
If you're interested, then
you're on a certain track.

00:54:16.089 --> 00:54:16.559
Agreed.

00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:21.544
Because that book is pretty all
encompassing, it basically says If you

00:54:21.544 --> 00:54:26.134
get what I'm saying, then the rest of
your life is basically an illusion.

00:54:26.194 --> 00:54:28.804
All that really matters is
your present moment experience.

00:54:29.244 --> 00:54:33.324
And that present moment experience
is an incredibly profound one.

00:54:34.224 --> 00:54:38.824
Everything else, your entire future
and your entire past, is a complete

00:54:38.834 --> 00:54:40.844
illusion and you need to drop it.

00:54:41.304 --> 00:54:43.434
Like radically, just completely drop it.

00:54:43.694 --> 00:54:43.874
Oh

00:54:43.874 --> 00:54:49.099
Sam: man, that's what my wife's father
was Very, very keen to transmit to, you

00:54:49.099 --> 00:54:53.049
know, his children and, you know, they
all turned out resolutely pragmatic

00:54:53.069 --> 00:54:57.709
and not especially interested, uh, Oh,
my beloved father in law who passed

00:54:57.709 --> 00:55:00.559
away three years ago, three years
ago, actually, you know, shortly.

00:55:00.979 --> 00:55:05.489
And you know, he, cause he, he had a very
difficult, you know, a set of difficult

00:55:05.489 --> 00:55:08.499
experiences after, you know, leaving
his home country and moving to Australia

00:55:08.989 --> 00:55:13.099
and, you know, experiencing a loss of
status and, you know, but showed him.

00:55:13.189 --> 00:55:17.849
I think a marvellous role model of
like just trying things and just going,

00:55:17.849 --> 00:55:18.849
I'm going to start this business.

00:55:18.849 --> 00:55:22.619
I'm going to do this and a lot of, a
lot of cool or interesting things that

00:55:22.619 --> 00:55:26.409
he tried and, you know, sure, not all
of them succeeded, but, and then he

00:55:26.409 --> 00:55:30.499
discovered Buddhism, meditation in the,
in the eighties, as a lot of people did.

00:55:30.849 --> 00:55:34.534
And, uh, you know, worked through, You
know, things that were holding him back,

00:55:34.774 --> 00:55:38.114
his personal development, and then really
was keen to pass that on to the kids.

00:55:38.384 --> 00:55:40.774
Cause this is the other thing,
when does this process end?

00:55:41.074 --> 00:55:42.314
So in his, it doesn't.

00:55:42.324 --> 00:55:46.066
So in his, the last 10 years of his
life, he was, I would say working

00:55:46.066 --> 00:55:51.366
harder than ever, but in a more subtle
way to like influence and like bring

00:55:51.366 --> 00:55:54.256
something positive from like all that
wisdom you've gained after, you know,

00:55:54.876 --> 00:55:58.966
it's like, he was constantly saying
that to me over, over lunch or dinner.

00:55:59.288 --> 00:56:02.318
Oh Sam, there is no You
know, there is no past.

00:56:02.318 --> 00:56:03.188
You know that, don't you?

00:56:03.718 --> 00:56:05.648
And I'm like, no, no,
that's, that's not a fact.

00:56:05.678 --> 00:56:07.218
That's a useful way of
looking at things though.

00:56:07.218 --> 00:56:08.988
And he's like, no, no, no, it's true.

00:56:09.508 --> 00:56:10.618
There is no past.

00:56:11.038 --> 00:56:13.758
Like, there is no future.

00:56:13.758 --> 00:56:15.488
He was just hammering away at me.

00:56:15.528 --> 00:56:15.768
This is

00:56:16.128 --> 00:56:18.818
Joe: something that only humans
have ever invented that aren't,

00:56:19.528 --> 00:56:20.938
that are two complete illusions.

00:56:21.098 --> 00:56:23.738
And, and I think he was
just And so much anxiety and

00:56:24.258 --> 00:56:24.448
Sam: pain.

00:56:24.508 --> 00:56:25.558
He was driven by compassion.

00:56:25.558 --> 00:56:26.968
He really, yes.

00:56:26.988 --> 00:56:28.268
You can just drop it all.

00:56:28.278 --> 00:56:30.868
That's what he was Sky's
off the past and the future.

00:56:30.908 --> 00:56:31.398
Exactly.

00:56:31.568 --> 00:56:34.988
He was looking at me and seeing the
guilt and the pain and the shame, and

00:56:34.988 --> 00:56:36.518
he was responding with compassion.

00:56:36.518 --> 00:56:38.358
And he was like, here's
what you need to know.

00:56:38.648 --> 00:56:41.658
And the monkey, there's a monkey in
your brain and it's torturing you.

00:56:41.668 --> 00:56:43.118
Just tell the monkey to be quiet.

00:56:43.168 --> 00:56:44.288
There's no past, there's no

00:56:44.548 --> 00:56:44.598
Joe: future.

00:56:46.148 --> 00:56:46.668
I was like, wow.

00:56:46.668 --> 00:56:51.108
That the power of now gets in
and, and meditation, hopefully in

00:56:51.108 --> 00:56:56.798
for Scarlet is the balm that she
needs if her mental health does.

00:56:57.273 --> 00:57:00.383
Take knocks, and she does
struggle with things and anxiety.

00:57:00.443 --> 00:57:01.133
Yes, you need protective.

00:57:01.133 --> 00:57:04.793
Does come together and
depression does come for her.

00:57:04.793 --> 00:57:07.963
The answer is going to be to
come into the present moment.

00:57:08.033 --> 00:57:12.453
Yes, you know, and appreciate
what's right in front of you.

00:57:12.853 --> 00:57:15.823
That's the only answer to come
out of depression and anxiety.

00:57:15.883 --> 00:57:16.743
Sam: Oh, 100%.

00:57:16.763 --> 00:57:18.063
No, I agree completely.

00:57:18.093 --> 00:57:22.313
And that was what one of the things
that really helped me was, I mean, I

00:57:22.313 --> 00:57:25.273
was terrified at the present moment,
basically did not want to be there

00:57:25.373 --> 00:57:29.943
and As I gradually began to recover,
and who knows which, you know, which

00:57:29.943 --> 00:57:32.993
thing comes first, or it all happens
at the same time, but gradually going,

00:57:32.993 --> 00:57:34.643
I actually can tolerate the present.

00:57:34.863 --> 00:57:38.113
Not only that, there are possibilities
in the present that don't exist

00:57:38.113 --> 00:57:39.213
in the past or the future.

00:57:39.283 --> 00:57:39.733
Yeah.

00:57:40.333 --> 00:57:40.803
All of them.

00:57:40.923 --> 00:57:41.523
All of them.

00:57:41.553 --> 00:57:43.143
There are no possibilities elsewhere.

00:57:43.333 --> 00:57:44.153
And that was cool.

00:57:44.193 --> 00:57:47.353
And dad tried to set me up with
that as well when I was a kid.

00:57:47.373 --> 00:57:50.919
And I think that, eventually it did get
through at a time when it was needed.

00:57:51.159 --> 00:57:51.699
So.

00:57:52.434 --> 00:57:55.144
You know, we can try and prepare
them as best we can, I suppose.

00:57:55.954 --> 00:57:56.264
Hopefully.

00:57:56.304 --> 00:57:56.414
But

00:57:56.414 --> 00:57:57.224
Joe: it's interesting, isn't it?

00:57:57.254 --> 00:57:57.274
Yeah.

00:57:57.284 --> 00:57:59.321
Like, that's how Western way is.

00:57:59.448 --> 00:58:01.088
A book is what's going to transmit.

00:58:01.208 --> 00:58:04.068
You still have the written word, you know.

00:58:04.148 --> 00:58:08.178
Sam: I'm much more about the dialogue,
the dialectic, the bouncing it back and

00:58:08.178 --> 00:58:08.298
Joe: forth.

00:58:08.348 --> 00:58:10.308
Well, wait till your kids can
read an adult book though,

00:58:10.308 --> 00:58:11.478
you might be quite excited.

00:58:11.898 --> 00:58:14.578
Sam: But that's what all those old
Greek books are, they're all dialogues.

00:58:15.503 --> 00:58:16.423
Like, written down,

00:58:16.493 --> 00:58:18.093
Joe: but like, now is actually a dialogue.

00:58:18.123 --> 00:58:18.903
Yeah, there you go.

00:58:18.953 --> 00:58:20.703
There's someone asking questions all

00:58:20.703 --> 00:58:21.153
Sam: the way through.

00:58:21.163 --> 00:58:21.363
Yeah.

00:58:21.363 --> 00:58:22.413
Look, I won't dismiss books.

00:58:22.413 --> 00:58:24.843
I don't want to be Sam's
famous anti book stance.

00:58:24.903 --> 00:58:29.373
Um, I think what I'm more pointing
at is that like a linear text

00:58:29.493 --> 00:58:32.403
can really work like here, sit
down, read the power of now.

00:58:32.433 --> 00:58:33.993
I, that's a good move for sure.

00:58:33.993 --> 00:58:38.003
But I think where the power really
lies is batting it back and forth

00:58:38.033 --> 00:58:39.618
and like turning it into something.

00:58:39.618 --> 00:58:39.916
I

00:58:39.916 --> 00:58:42.297
Joe: would say that the
power lies in practice.

00:58:42.297 --> 00:58:42.892
It agreed.

00:58:42.892 --> 00:58:43.190
Yeah.

00:58:43.190 --> 00:58:44.083
And it is.

00:58:44.243 --> 00:58:48.293
So for me, so still the Buddhist
practices, which will get me

00:58:48.293 --> 00:58:50.383
most into the present moment.

00:58:51.013 --> 00:58:54.323
Like most meditators, I know it's
just real struggle to do them

00:58:54.323 --> 00:58:56.503
with any discipline and rigor.

00:58:56.593 --> 00:59:01.503
Like the things that come and go and then
you do them and it's always so good that

00:59:01.513 --> 00:59:04.123
afterwards, just like the gym, you're
like, Oh, I got to do that more often,

00:59:04.123 --> 00:59:05.613
you know, but you don't, you just don't.

00:59:05.883 --> 00:59:11.143
So yeah, I think we can probably
wrap it up quite productively.

00:59:11.163 --> 00:59:13.223
Sam: And we shout out to my dad,
his wise friend, Bill Hicks,

00:59:13.223 --> 00:59:14.233
who passed away a few years ago.

00:59:14.793 --> 00:59:17.723
He always used to say, at the
end of a wise chat between the

00:59:17.723 --> 00:59:20.903
two of them, Yep, but does it
change what you do in the morning?

00:59:20.903 --> 00:59:23.983
Joe: Your dad was friends with Bill Hicks?

00:59:24.033 --> 00:59:25.223
No, different Bill Hicks.

00:59:25.663 --> 00:59:27.423
Different Bill Hicks, but also American?

00:59:27.543 --> 00:59:30.623
Sam: He was basically a similar
guy in a few ways, yeah.

00:59:30.633 --> 00:59:31.033
Right.

00:59:31.053 --> 00:59:34.076
Yeah, he was a tripper, and a
truth teller, and a crazy man.

00:59:34.076 --> 00:59:35.408
Does it change what you're
doing in the morning?

00:59:35.858 --> 00:59:36.088
Does it

00:59:36.088 --> 00:59:37.318
Joe: change what you do in the morning?

00:59:37.468 --> 00:59:41.938
I've been told that the way you wake up,
the state you wake up in emotionally,

00:59:41.978 --> 00:59:44.058
is your true spiritual condition.

00:59:44.148 --> 00:59:44.628
Oh God.

00:59:44.718 --> 00:59:45.108
Whoa.

00:59:45.898 --> 00:59:47.328
Mine is terrible.

00:59:48.408 --> 00:59:49.338
Sam: Mine's a worry.

00:59:50.158 --> 00:59:50.348
I've

00:59:50.458 --> 00:59:50.948
Joe: steadily improved.

00:59:50.948 --> 00:59:51.838
Let's hope that's not true though.

00:59:51.848 --> 00:59:52.458
Oh God.

00:59:53.198 --> 00:59:54.188
Let's just cut that out.

00:59:55.108 --> 00:59:55.968
Sam: No, no, leave it in.

00:59:56.878 --> 00:59:58.578
We need to keep it real for everyone else.

00:59:59.668 --> 01:00:03.098
Keep it real for the kids, you know,
but like, my consciousness started off

01:00:03.128 --> 01:00:05.138
bad today and it's steadily improved.

01:00:05.138 --> 01:00:05.858
I want to say that.

01:00:05.948 --> 01:00:06.408
Joe: So, um.

01:00:06.488 --> 01:00:07.928
That's every day for me, pretty much.

01:00:07.998 --> 01:00:08.468
Yeah.

01:00:08.738 --> 01:00:08.888
Yeah.

01:00:09.278 --> 01:00:10.778
I think we should wrap it up.

01:00:11.718 --> 01:00:12.158
That's right.

01:00:12.358 --> 01:00:14.368
Does everyone want to find a
word on what they want to pass

01:00:14.368 --> 01:00:15.518
on to their children, Ali?

01:00:16.578 --> 01:00:17.008
No, I think

01:00:17.008 --> 01:00:18.548
Ali: we've really, no, I'm just.

01:00:19.133 --> 01:00:21.223
Joe: Sounds like you've
already perfected your child.

01:00:21.933 --> 01:00:22.383
Ali: My child is

01:00:22.633 --> 01:00:23.213
Sam: perfect now.

01:00:23.213 --> 01:00:25.083
Ali gets four points.

01:00:25.153 --> 01:00:25.273
He's

01:00:25.273 --> 01:00:26.243
Joe: like, what are you going to pass on?

01:00:26.253 --> 01:00:26.823
He's cooked.

01:00:27.543 --> 01:00:27.993
Ali: He's done.

01:00:28.023 --> 01:00:28.803
I'm pretty much done.

01:00:28.803 --> 01:00:30.093
Like, I'm just hanging out till he's 18.

01:00:30.133 --> 01:00:31.493
No, I just, I feel, I don't know.

01:00:31.493 --> 01:00:39.988
I, it's one of the few things in my life
that I, I'm genuinely proud of that I

01:00:39.988 --> 01:00:42.908
haven't fucked up, because I fucked up
just about everything else, but I don't

01:00:42.908 --> 01:00:46.451
feel like I fucked him up yet, or at
least not enough that he's, you know, that

01:00:46.451 --> 01:00:47.001
Joe: it's a worry.

01:00:47.001 --> 01:00:49.788
Sam said you pass at seven, at
seven years old you're done.

01:00:49.858 --> 01:00:50.698
Oh, no, no, no, I,

01:00:50.718 --> 01:00:51.688
Sam: that was my original view.

01:00:51.948 --> 01:00:54.338
But then like, and I think there's
a lot in it, but what I eventually

01:00:54.388 --> 01:00:57.128
came to was like, oh, it's never
too late to make adjustments.

01:00:57.128 --> 01:00:59.678
Like we can't give up here on the present.

01:00:59.758 --> 01:01:01.468
Ali: No, and I think, yeah,
even watching Don't you

01:01:01.468 --> 01:01:04.798
Joe: find you're just watching them
emerge though, rather than sculpting them?

01:01:04.798 --> 01:01:05.188
Oh God, that's

01:01:05.838 --> 01:01:06.058
Sam: what I'm saying.

01:01:06.058 --> 01:01:07.028
Ali: Yeah, yeah, it is.

01:01:07.528 --> 01:01:07.718
It's

01:01:07.718 --> 01:01:07.958
Sam: both.

01:01:08.068 --> 01:01:12.178
Joe: Like they come with so much pre
programmed personality, it's like

01:01:12.178 --> 01:01:12.918
Ali: fucking hell.

01:01:12.938 --> 01:01:16.278
It's just more just nudging, a little
nudging in the right direction if

01:01:16.278 --> 01:01:18.618
things feel a little bit like Yeah.

01:01:18.658 --> 01:01:19.048
Yeah.

01:01:19.118 --> 01:01:23.798
Sam: Nudging, holding, loosening,
boundaries sometimes, hard

01:01:23.798 --> 01:01:24.688
Joe: boundaries sometimes.

01:01:24.688 --> 01:01:27.268
I don't know, I mean, I don't know your
five year old Sam, but the couple of

01:01:27.268 --> 01:01:29.888
times she's come out here I was like,
oh, no one's telling that kid what to do.

01:01:30.508 --> 01:01:31.658
Oh, no, no, you're right.

01:01:31.758 --> 01:01:32.938
She's kind of like the wild kid.

01:01:33.403 --> 01:01:34.673
No, no, she's

01:01:34.673 --> 01:01:41.323
Sam: incredibly strong willed, yes, yes,
I, I admire it greatly and it defeats

01:01:41.323 --> 01:01:44.123
me occasionally, often, every day.

01:01:45.333 --> 01:01:47.353
Ali: No, I think there's, there's
something for willful children, I think

01:01:47.353 --> 01:01:48.353
it's actually a wonderful quality.

01:01:48.383 --> 01:01:48.573
I'm

01:01:48.573 --> 01:01:51.963
Sam: not going to crush it out of
her, but I am going to try and, um,

01:01:52.233 --> 01:01:53.113
Ali: shift you, yeah.

01:01:53.113 --> 01:01:56.163
It's trying to channel it into
a way that's actually really

01:01:56.163 --> 01:01:57.763
productive and good and, yeah.

01:01:58.028 --> 01:02:02.198
Useful and helpful rather,
because it can be like, yeah, your

01:02:02.198 --> 01:02:03.918
greatest asset, but also yeah.

01:02:04.748 --> 01:02:05.298
Sam: Totally.

01:02:05.328 --> 01:02:05.628
Yeah.

01:02:06.078 --> 01:02:10.298
If I, if I tried to meet her unstoppable
force with an immovable object,

01:02:10.358 --> 01:02:11.838
it's just going to produce neurosis.

01:02:12.348 --> 01:02:13.588
Like, I don't want to do that.

01:02:13.638 --> 01:02:16.078
It's like, you have to, you're
going to have to find your way

01:02:16.078 --> 01:02:20.148
through this willfulness yourself
and learn to take a suggestion from

01:02:20.148 --> 01:02:21.498
someone else from time to time.

01:02:21.518 --> 01:02:23.288
And you'll figure that out eventually.

01:02:23.998 --> 01:02:25.438
I got it by 40, so.

01:02:25.933 --> 01:02:27.143
You know, there's hope for her.

01:02:27.743 --> 01:02:28.133
Yeah.

01:02:28.703 --> 01:02:30.893
Well, uh, thanks everyone.

01:02:30.933 --> 01:02:31.333
Thank you.

01:02:31.883 --> 01:02:33.933
Joe: This has been
another one of the 10, 000

01:02:33.933 --> 01:02:34.333
Sam: things.

01:02:34.403 --> 01:02:34.733
Ooh.

01:02:35.233 --> 01:02:35.583
Okay.

01:02:35.583 --> 01:02:36.413
Now that's an outro.

01:02:36.413 --> 01:02:36.553
Bye.

01:02:37.833 --> 01:02:38.363
Ali: Bye.