Sam: Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show, what do we want to pass on to our children?
This topic came up because the other week I gave a copy of The
Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, or Tolle as they say everywhere
else in the world, to my daughter.
And to my surprise, she started reading it.
And I was like, oh my god, my 14 year old daughter is reading a book that I
gave her and getting something out of it.
And I was like, it made me think, like, what's my priorities, if, if, if I am
going to have some influence, and up until that point I figured I was just not,
what's, you know, what's my influence?
My father had handed me a copy of On the Road at about 15, 16 when
I was in my first deep depression.
that really influenced me a lot.
So.
And then, yeah, just more broadly, like, what do we want
to pass on to our, our children?
I don't know, like, you know, in their, in their lives, in, I guess,
by the time we die, but mostly, I guess, by the time they're 21.
You know, as a framing of the, of the topic.
yeah, I don't know, over to you guys, you're both parents, so.
Sam: We're all just about past the, show me the child at seven, all that, I've
got still a couple of years on that, with one, and another's already well
past seven, and all, both of you, well past seven, with your, with your kids,
so I was, I was thinking about the on the road thing and your dad giving you that,
and I wanted to ask more specifically, because you've mentioned this before,
what did you, What did you get from that?
And what was your father trying to transmit?
Joe: depression in six at 16 what's in that book for anyone
who picks it up If you can look past the outdated sexism of it.
Yeah, is this incredible lust for life?
Yes, this incredible sense of adventure this sense that you might have no
money But you've got the freedom to walk to the edge of the city and just
start hitchhiking and you can get to the other side of a country and you
can go on adventures and none of it is dependent on, yeah, material, anything.
It's just a sense of adventure and, and in that book is the most, it's
still my favorite book to this day, the most extraordinary, capturing
of, What's incredible about human life, I think, and the sense of fun
and excitement of being a young man.
So I think it helped lift me out of my depression.
So yeah.
Ali: That's such a gift.
That's really a gift.
Yeah.
That your dad was able to give you.
Sam: And, and yeah, it sounds like it was a good choice and do you
think that's what he was getting at?
With the
Joe: Don't know.
I mean, maybe it was like me.
I handed a copy of The Power of Now to Scarlett.
I didn't expect her to read it.
Maybe she just handed me this book and thought it might help.
Sam: So you were quite convinced she wouldn't pick it up at all?
Joe: Yeah, I don't know.
Do kids read books?
I don't see much sign of it.
But yeah, what about you, Ali?
Ali: So, I mean, I'm just trying to think of my son So like Spotify wrapped has
recently just, you know, happened and which is like the highlight of our year
because, and it's a thing every year we go through and we go through each
other's lists and we go through and we talk about like all the different albums
and discover new music together and like My boy, you know, from the womb was
listening to music, like he's been exposed to music his whole life and, you know,
even when he came into the world, like the first thing he heard was David Bowie.
Like that was the, you know, he was, he's always just.
So this deep love of music and expression and what it can do for
your mood, for your state of mind.
I think that's just something that I, yeah, I'm, I can, I can witness
the benefits of it, you know, of how it's made him feel like as a
direct thing that's come from me.
Because I'm trying to think of like, I mean, yeah, we've read similar books.
We've, you know, he's, I mean, he's a voracious reader.
So he actually, he reads a lot and You know, I mean, certainly more
than I had ever read at that age.
So, but yeah, I think like, it would be music, it'd be the thing that I've
certainly, I think I can see that I've passed on to him, apart from other, you
know, I suppose when I, when you pitched this topic, I was sort of thinking more
of like the values and things that we'd,
Joe: Yeah, that's why I wanted to broaden it out too.
Yeah, because that's, yeah.
Like, let's just say, who knows when we're going to die, but let's just say by the
time they're 21, like what have we Well.
Passed on to
Sam: them.
It's funny, funny you should put that age on it, because you and I were down a
parent by that age, and at that point, whatever legacy they intended to give me,
intellectually or culturally or values or whatever, that had already been done.
What I didn't realise was actually that it keeps being transmitted, and
that And I don't mean that in any kind of supernatural sense, but that the
parents, the dead ones, they still speak to you, uh, you remember things as time
goes by that weren't relevant earlier.
And they, so things are still being passed down is what I'm saying.
And of course my dad's still around and he's still passing things
on very much, and I welcome it.
Now with the, you and the books with, it's great , to be in the to like
you two can actually just ask each other, what did you think about this?
And that's great.
So what was a book that you really both uh, one that was really
productive of a good exchange out of all the What have you recommended?
What have you recommended?
Ali: Oh, so he, he just goes through phases and like, I mean, yeah, he was
He was going through a George Orwell phase, so he read 1984, and then,
so he got Notes on Catalonia, and then we just, you know, books that
I'd sort of read in my late teens.
Sam: Okay, so you'd read Notes on Catalonia, I haven't.
Yeah,
Ali: yeah, not for a very long time, but I'd read it when I was younger,
and so I gave that to him to read, so.
Sam: So you two had a chat about the Spanish Civil War one day?
Ali: Yeah, so yeah, he's, and like, and he's, he'll bring up, you know,
Wikipedia, or he'll bring up like, you know, things that he's been reading in
conjunction with it, because he sort of, he's like me, like, we'll be reading
something, but we've got to go, and then.
Reference and check things as we go.
And so it becomes, so you have a bigger picture.
So that sort of dialogue of, you know, of what we do, like, yeah, whether it's all
those cultural things, whether it's music or movies or books, like, yeah, it becomes
a broader discussion then about what, how did that make us feel or what, what has
changed or how is it relevant to us now?
And yeah, I love those discussions with him and his insight.
And yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
Way to really, I think, bring you.
closer to you that's it's the most I feel present when I'm with him
like it's because it's You know, so much of the day to day of, you
know, work and life and Rundanities.
Sam: Yeah.
Telling your kids to
Ali: do stuff all the time.
Yeah.
Like, whereas, like, actually when we're just sitting, like I said the other day,
like, you know, it's the highlight of our years, the Spotify draft is actually
just sitting and having a really in depth discussion about, you know, which
grunge songs he was into, which like, you know, like, yeah, cause he's So
much of the music influence is like from me and from his dad and from his
friends and that sort of melting pot.
It's really interesting.
Sam: Okay.
And of course the lyrical profundity of treat me like a,
Ali: That which he was his number eight song.
And I'm like, wow, if that, if I haven't like rubbed off on him, What's that?
Joe: So
Ali: the Kim Petras was my number one played song, treat me like a slut.
The song
Sam: that Joe was tutting and moral panicking about on the, uh, on the group.
Ali: And my son's been listening to it.
So.
But then, like, yeah, Nine Inch Nails would have been, you know, cause that
would have been mine when I was that age.
That's right.
Yeah, and it's the same for him.
And that, I'm pretty sure, that popped up on his list too.
Like, you know, Nine Inch Nails popped
Sam: up.
No one in our generation thinks that Trent Reznor's a bad influence on
Joe: the youth, do you?
I think I wanna fuck you like an animal is a much better thing to
say than treat me like a slut.
Oh my
Sam: God, they're both, they're both awesome statements that need to be in the
right context between the right people.
Joe: Anyway, we're way off track.
I mean,
Sam: Sam, do you feel like, they're both gateways into a
world of pleasure and profundity.
Sam, do
Joe: you feel like you're consciously trying to influence
and shape your children?
Yeah.
I feel like you are much more conscious.
I'm just, I guess I feel like I just observe them.
and do some guiding, but basically I just watch them unfold.
Whereas I think just from hearing you talk about your parenting, you sound
very conscious and focused on certain, you know, modeling certain things and
things around gender being a construct and stuff that I have not done at all.
I mean, but so I feel like you're consciously trying to mold your children.
Okay.
I mean, they're much younger.
How old are they?
Sam: Okay, five and nine.
I would have to tell us, I'd have to tell a bit of a long winded
narrative about actually how my view of all this has changed quite a lot.
so for example, let's attack it from the point of view of the question of values.
All right.
And this is one that comes up.
It's a favorite hobby horse of mine, actually.
People treat it like a simple thing.
Empathy.
Empathy is good, right?
Values.
Values are good, right?
I think most people, no offense.
They've not been forced to examine it in the way I have, because professionally,
like, in teaching, we're constant, there are debates about values, and there's
a lot of pressure from the media, from parents, and from all over, politics.
What values should we be transmitting, blah, blah, blah.
Or people will say, um, you know, I sent my kids to this expensive
school, you know, because values.
And it's often incredibly vague.
What, what values exactly?
Do public schools not have values?
That's something that really gets my back up.
I think public schools do have values.
Democratic, inclusive.
Multicultural, etc.
Law of the
Joe: jungle.
Uh, that too.
Yeah, that's what I learned at public school.
Now of
Sam: course, independent schools, law of the jungle also applies.
Yeah.
In a different way.
Different type of jungle though.
Yeah.
Now, so, so I think that this idea of values is very seductive and I
think very simplistic for most people.
Now, I'm not, I don't want to do anyone a disservice or discredit.
I think most people actually do, when they stop and reflect, they will realize.
That they actually do have a conflicted set of values and that it's not a
straightforward matter what they want to pass on to their kids.
And of course we often find ourselves trying to transmit
one value only to realize that we're not living by it properly.
Yeah, do as I say, don't do as I do.
Yeah, exactly.
And kids don't do what you say, they do what they see.
So if you keep that in mind.
What we're, how we're really transmitting values is just through how we live
our lives and how we, I would say all three of us, we've changed in how we
live our lives and that was revealed in a recent episode for Ali and Joe's
been through huge changes, even just in the last two years even, right?
So the things that your kids will be picking up from that
will have changed in that time.
Also.
I think early on I really overthought it when the, when they were babies,
like I found myself quite stiff and buttoned up around babies, my babies,
and found it hard to be natural and be myself and kind of like how I've felt in
the studio when the red light turns on and okay, it's time to sing or kind of,
Ali: I totally, I really resonate with that.
It's interesting, like, when I fell pregnant, and I was quite young
and my son's father was very young when we found out I was pregnant
and it's, I mean, mercifully, we have always been on the same page.
Like, so co parenting with him has been really, really, like, I can
count on one hand the amount of times we've ever disagreed about parenting.
We're really very, very similarly minded.
And I remember really vividly a discussion around, Our own experience growing up
and what we wanted for our baby and how it was really in stark contrast to
what we'd both experienced and sort of, and really being very deliberate in,
okay, well, we don't want to do this.
So we don't, so it was a really conscious thing of like, Oh, like, yeah, the, my
parents, you know, quick to temper and quick to yell and similarly with his.
You know, parents and, or, you know, anger and violence was very
much a part of that experience.
And so we were so
Sam: also his father, yeah,
Ali: very much so.
And so we both had those sort of volatile childhoods that we just did
not want that experience for our boy.
And so we very much, it was such a conscious thing of like, and
catching ourselves, you know, like, Do as I say, not as I do.
And you, you have, when it's something you've observed and
you've, it's so natural to be quick to temper or to fly off the handle.
Like, cause that was my experience growing up and actually catching
myself and going, no, I need to really, that's not how we're doing it.
We're going to be patient.
We're going to be calm.
We're going to be quiet.
We're going to be, we are going to be a safe.
You know, a soft landing for him.
That is all, that is what we wanted.
And it was such a conscious thing we worked on from the beginning and
massively, like I said, we've always been on the same page and I have
enormous respect for him as a father.
He's been a brilliant father.
And so, it's been a really, I think those sorts of things.
And, and then watching like our son grow up and, you know,
the age that he is now and how.
Different.
I mean, like there are similarities, you know, with me and with his father, but
also the difference in just in behaviors and things that he and his self confidence
that neither his father or I had.
And I think that is a result of the way we've.
If there's anything else I want to tell
Joe: you in this episode Be sure to turn it up!
I'm in Whampara I don't have
Ali: a believable idea where my auditory analogy right is
Sam: It is really horrible that I lost this for theatre You can
watch it at accuracyacademy.
tv mmm sung Bob let your heights shoot out That
Joe: is so good Woah, no!
It's just what I would be concerned about.
Of course.
Oh yeah,
Ali: absolutely.
Like what was
Joe: good?
What was good about having being yelled at and belted as a kid?
Probably nothing except that maybe toughened you up a little bit, right?
Yes.
It didn't happen to me.
I didn't get really hit
Sam: as a kid.
What doesn't kill you makes you weaker sometimes.
Joe: Yeah, I don't know.
And maybe the world that he goes into isn't going to be a scary place.
I have
Ali: no idea.
I mean, he's certainly experienced, I would say, yeah, things at school
that yeah, are horrible or, you know, other kids saying shit.
Things and things that he would never have, you know, experienced
in the home and like, you know, people being really awful or having,
you know, saying terrible things.
And yeah, he's come home and we've talked about it, but the way he's
been able to handle himself, I think what we've tried to foster is
a strong sense of self-confidence.
Yeah.
So that.
He's confident enough and learned, felt comfortable enough to be able
to speak his mind in the home, which was never something I was able to
do, or his father was able to do.
So that in the real world, that's actually translated to him being able to stand up
not just for himself, but for his friends.
And he is very quick to step in and say
Sam: something.
Teenagers have a strong sense of justice generally, as, as kids do.
Ali: But it's the confidence to be able to say, actually do something, whereas like
I would have probably hung back and been like, you know, or just not say anything.
Whereas I think he's actually far more vocal than his father and I ever were.
Well,
Sam: I think that's right.
I think kids and teens in general suffer greatly when there is that
gap between their sense of justice and their feeling of agency about
being able to do anything about it.
Ali: Um, yeah, that's the thing.
I think that sense of agency and knowing like, and this is something
in stark contrast to my, my.
Parents is that he's always, I think he's always had a sense of his.
Voice is just as important as mom and dad's in the family.
It always was.
It was
Joe: But we joked about the other week how they sent you to a fancy
girls private school and they told you that your voice was important.
We joked about We all had a laugh about that because The teenage's voice is
not actually that important in society.
Agreed.
Yeah, but Unless you're Greta Thunberg and then And You know,
people have a meltdown about it.
Sam: And people say virtuous things like the, the conservatives
and the liberals alike are happy to say, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kids, you know, kids should speak up on important issues.
And then the second they do, you don't get it.
Shut up.
Ali: Yeah.
I don't know.
Like, I feel like.
Joe: But yeah, but you've done that.
So you can see the irony that you were told that as a teenager, but you don't
have irony that your son has full say in, you know, things even though he's a minor.
But I was
Ali: told that like in the school sense, but there was really still
very strict boundaries of when and where that voice could be used or not.
This is
Sam: just it, right?
Yeah.
You, your voice is important, now save it till you leave this place, I think
is the message a lot of the time.
Ali: Yeah, it was like, yeah, not to speak out of turn in class,
or out of turn against your parents or anything like that,
Sam: whereas Oh, and don't be, don't be putting anything in the feedback
box for the school to consider doing
Ali: differently.
So, yeah.
Whereas he certainly would feel comfortable Pulling me up on something
that he doesn't agree with and same with his father and like, and yeah,
so not take that sort of as a personal affront, but just as another person
of equal, like I said, there was, there's no like, Oh, you have to listen
to me just because I'm your parent.
Sam: Yeah.
Appeal to authority.
Yeah.
Which is a difficult one because we can't live without authority and
we can't just base it on authority.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
It's a balance.
Like, you know, yeah.
Like it's like.
Yeah.
Trust my judgment because I'm your mother, because I might've experienced something.
I might have a bit of insight and knowledge in, you know, when it comes
to this versus just like do it because I've told you to do it without any
sort of, you know, we've always tried to offer an explanation or yeah,
or reason behind what we've said.
Joe: I mean, in terms of not going through, not wanting your
kids to go through what you went through, I achieved that.
We achieved that by breaking up.
Uh, well, eight years ago, yeah, which eventually the kids were like
six and two, which broke up, which paved the way for you to, well,
unlike me, they didn't live in a house with tension, intrigue, fighting.
And all their time with me as the single dad is the super chill, laissez faire, I'm
not consciously trying to mold those kids.
And not lecturing
Sam: them about left wing politics.
Joe: If it's what you do, not what you say, then what I do is
look at my phone and watch sport.
And when I look at my 14 year old, what she does is look at
her phone and do her makeup.
So you're
Sam: on the same page.
Great.
Joe: Well, I have an exact mirror of myself looking back at me.
I'm on my side, you know, past the phone in each direction, right?
And so do I want that?
It might be really fucking bad.
I mean, I think the social media, the data's in on what
social media does to teenage
Sam: girls.
It's really bad.
Also, Joe, you're a big one for individual responsibility in your,
you know, small C conservative role occasionally, or occasionally a
reactionary role, but like, don't forget.
Don't give yourself all the credit or all the blame for anything and I mean what
Ali: I even the most like strict parents who You know would be like we would
monitor like, you know screen time and all that sort of stuff Yeah, that
would still be and that is absolutely a battle that every single parent is
having in the view in the world What
Joe: I'm saying is I'm not having the battle because my experience is I'm
integrated with my iPhone so that I would get an implant I would get an implant
into my brain that was Google Maps.
I would get an implant into my brain that was Black Mirror stuff, yeah.
No, I would.
I'd get Google Maps and Spotify implanted.
Because basically, say if I'm ever driving a vehicle, those
things are running and I'm getting music and I know where I'm going.
Music I love and I know where I'm going.
So I'm completely integrated with my iPhone, plus then I'm reading
books, articles, Instagram, whatever.
So my experience was the year that Scarlett was born, when I got my
first iPhone, I thought this was cool.
I didn't realise I was going to become basically a cyborg, but I have, right?
So then I can either hide that from my children and say it's bad.
It's very bad.
I'm doing it, but it's very bad, but I'm not going to stop doing it.
Or, and what I've actually done is just let it slide.
Or I'm,
Sam: I'm, or I've got a terrible drinking habit, but I'm going to tell you not
Joe: to do drugs.
Well the other thing that they haven't seen in the last eight years
is me drinking or taking drugs.
Great.
That's awesome.
And in my house, I saw that every single night of my life
and then became an alcoholic.
So it's, you know, I think you've done all right.
Well, there's pros and cons.
Exactly.
The phone stuff.
I wish they looked over and I was, uh, reading a book, a paper book.
I might be reading a book on my phone.
It's probably unlikely, but I might be.
I kind of wish they looked over.
In a way, because, I mean, it's a bit of a joke, but in that small key C conservative
way, I kind of wish they looked over and I was sitting in an armchair
with a pipe reading a huge newspaper.
Which is what
Sam: you used to do, kind of.
Joe: Kind of?
Yeah.
Like, I still see the patriarchal role as that, in a sense, and if I'm
Sam: there Isn't it curious what a passive image it is?
It's very
Joe: passive, but it's also, for a patriarchal image,
Sam: it's so passive.
The mother is always doing, and the father is doing nothing.
Joe: The
Sam: woman is the man of action, and the man is a Passive consumer, but that's
Joe: kind of how bizarre it's kind of like that, but without the giant
newspaper and the, and the armchair and the pipe, it's kind of like that, but
I'm sitting on the couch with my phone.
It's really,
Ali: I mean, I really, I feel the guilt there too and stuff, but like we all,
we, I think we're all guilty of it.
And like,
Joe: I mean, the difference with that fifties father though,
is that he's unapproachable and will tell them to shush.
Yeah.
I'm not like that at all.
I'm completely wide open if they want to come and climb up on me or they want to.
Ask me a question or, well, if they want to engage, I will engage.
Well, the phone's not a wall
Sam: then.
That's good.
Yeah.
That's good.
Joe: No, it's just
Ali: It's whether they do then come to you.
I think that's And if they do, then it's not a, it's,
Joe: it's not a problem.
In terms of what I want to pass on to them, there's lots of things,
but the thing that I 100 percent will pass on to them is to stare
at a screen most of the time.
I will, I've already passed that on, you know, like Ruby the 10
year old wants her first phone.
She's already got an iPad.
Yeah, it's happening, you know, so, but, but that is a culture wide
worldwide phenomenon that's just galloping away and we're just going
to have to see what the wash up is.
It can't be stopped now.
Hmm.
Sam: well, I mean, there's all sorts of things that are actually being done, um,
in and outside of industry and, you know, there are popular movements to tackle it.
But yeah, so we can't, so that's, that's right.
So we're realizing what all the illusions and hidden reefs are here in this topic.
And one of the illusions is it's up to us entirely.
And one of the illusions is, um, that it's a, there's a simple
relationship between our intention and what actually gets transmitted.
And so to take it and taking the example of.
Yeah.
I'm on my phone too much.
This is bad.
Uh, you, you don't do it.
And at least you're not a hypocrite with that, right?
Because let's say with the best intentions, you did really consciously
limit your phone use around your kids, which is something I'm working on.
Yeah.
Ali: That's what, I mean, we just have boundaries around, just don't
have it at the dinner table or like, you know, we're having a discussion.
Don't, you know, don't look at your phone while we're
Joe: talking to each other.
Well, that
Ali: sort of thing, things like that.
So I don't Yeah, those sorts of, but yeah, and that's where I'm trying to
model that and not pull my phone out.
Well, yeah.
And, and so, and he's, yeah, really good like that.
So I mean, yeah.
Joe: You have to admit your phone is a lot more interesting
than your only child, though.
So, that's the illusion is the phone is always more interesting than whatever's
in front of us, even our beloved children.
I agree.
I agree in it.
It's an illusion.
It's an illusion, but it's, it's very pervasive.
And then the other, the real sneaky one is I can have both.
I can have my beautiful daughters in front of me and be engaging with
them, but also checking Instagram.
We kind of can't
Sam: really have both.
Well, this is what I was trying to point us to just now with my
remarks, that what I'm trying to get at is like, it's the dialectic.
So you, you know, you think you're landing here, this is what actually happens.
And then that produces a synthesis of the two things.
And so if we adopt a hypocritical stance as parents in the effort
to, okay, I know I'm flawed, but here's what you should live by.
What we actually transmit is hypocrisy.
Then, so we've got another option, which is accept.
How we are, to a degree, and invoke the good enough parent, Winnicott,
uh, that's really important.
Try to be real with our kids, you know, so that's, that's another option or we
can engage in subterfuge and only do our bad things when they're not looking.
Yeah.
Which they always see through.
That's exactly right.
All parents do that
Ali: though.
You just wait till the kids have gone to bed and that's when you put
on the things you want to watch.
That's when you watch Real Housewives.
Yeah.
And you eat all the snacks.
Yeah.
That's right.
And I don't
Joe: do any of that.
I think I'm a completely Joe lives
Sam: lives like an open book, he does.
I do, I think I
Joe: do.
Yeah, I like that a lot.
I mean, I don't,
Sam: you know.
I think the honesty approach is.
Is, it's the way to go.
I think it's
Joe: the, the, the, the book's been too open in that they've met four girlfriends
in eight years and in the end Mm-Hmm.
In the, in the final analysis.
None of the, that never needed to happen.
No.
But the Okay.
For example, that's probably, it's probably my biggest regret.
Okay.
Interesting.
A single dad is just to go too soon on the meet the girlfriend.
Yeah.
Uh, just 'cause I've made that, I mean, it feels like the kind of stuff
that's gonna come up in therapy later.
Mm-Hmm.
like.
You know, it feels, it has that tone about it of like, well, we
did meet all these girlfriends.
Sam: What about Byron Bay person?
Did they meet her?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, look, on the other hand, again, it's the dialectic.
You think what was transmitted was, oh boy, look at loose old dad
with his string of girlfriends.
But also you gotta, what, what actually So, you've got a one dimensional
idea of what was transmitted there.
I'm not saying it because
Joe: it's immoral, I think it's because it's
Sam: confusing.
Confusing, sure.
That's it.
No, no, I get that.
But I think the other thing that was transmitted, though, was that you
had a degree of control over that situation, and maybe some of it, okay,
you brought them in too soon, okay?
On the other hand, you ended all of those relationships, and
you modelled an example, I would
Joe: not say And there was no fighting in front of the kids with any
Sam: of those partners.
And you modelled a good example, a good enough Viable example of a
person making a better decision.
And I think that, that example of mistake, better decision is much more
powerful than I must avoid errors as a parent and show what perfection looks
Joe: like, because that is a deadly, deadly trap.
It would have been pretty buttoned down to have a complete bright line
between anyone I dated and my kids, even though I dated them for, say,
six months, to say you can never meet.
There's a pressure that's created of like, well, why can't I meet your kids?
Well, so the
Sam: artificiality on both sides.
So yeah, that's right.
So, and also they might express at some point, wait a minute, are you
trying to conceal something here?
So you just have to negotiate it the whole way through.
There's
Joe: no rules.
Anyway, so that's the stuff that we're transmitting, whether we want to or not.
I don't know what you're transmitting.
It sounds like you're trying to limit your phone use and stuff, but you also
have, like I said, quite a conscious, some very conscious ideas about trying
to transmit something that's not, say, heteronormative or whatever, right?
Sam: Well, I'll start with where it all began.
So with the first baby, and I said to all the, you know, extended family and
grandparents and stuff, okay, I just have two things that I want to, lay down.
I tried to lay down something.
And what, so I've got two very, two things that are very important to me.
One, can we please keep them away from sugar for as long as possible?
Like refined sugar.
And can we not gender them any more than society and consumption is going to do?
Like, we don't need to add to that.
It's going to come in hot and strong, no matter what.
So it, you know, you go to K Mart or, you know, Big W or whatever,
and you walk the toy aisles.
It is, it's apartheid South Africa, boy stuff over here, girl stuff over here.
It's outrageous.
And they pick that up.
They know what's what.
We've had a hundred years of modern advertising since Freud's
nephew invented it, basically.
And we've got a very well established science of influence and market
segmentation, audience segmentation, and so on, and they get segmented,
they get diced and sliced.
In two seconds, by those forces, and the only thing parents can really do there,
apart from, you know, try and keep them out of Big W, is We don't need to add
to that by validating those signals.
We, we don't need to go, here, here's a gun for the boy and
here's a Barbie for the girl.
Like, sorry, I know Barbie's a hot property right now, but I think we've been
conned to a slight degree by some of that.
It's, that particular property is not the only problem.
Lego does it.
everyone's doing it.
And guess what?
The first toy company or children's IP that doesn't play the gender game.
is going to lose, and they're going to lose market over it.
These kids want to be marketed to according to gender for the most part.
So, if, let's say, you know, Disney decided, oh, well, yeah,
we're going to like, go gender neutral with all our IP from now
on, it wouldn't work commercially.
And as much as the right are freaking out about the culture
industry, uh, destabilizing heteronormativity, bugger off.
Heteronormativity is alive and well.
Joe: It is going strong.
Gender reveal parties only started happening in the last 10 years,
as far as I can tell, with pink and blue balloons and shit.
Yeah.
Sam: Where do they come from?
Gender is being reified more.
Gender's fine.
Yeah, gender is going
Joe: strong.
Gender's not going anywhere, and whatever you tried to do in that regard
would have had close to zero influence.
Ali: Uh, no.
No, it's like, cause we did, it was quite similar with, with our boy in
that, like, yeah, it wasn't, We had only a couple of rules and one was no
hitting, like, like, no parent, like, no grandparent giving them a whack,
like, that's just not happening.
Like both great, both sets of grandparents tried to, and we would both shut down
very quickly that that was not okay.
And we were not doing that.
And the other one was around toys are toys and there's no, he can
play with whatever he wants with.
The girl
Sam: should play with guns too.
I
Ali: do believe that.
And like, and he has always gravitated towards dress ups and
make believe and you know, and, and Barbies and things like that.
It's fun.
And I remember when he was like, Three, and the, you know, he's just
starting to really talk and he's got up on Santa's knee because, you
know, what do you want for Christmas?
And he asked for a Barbie camper van and a blonde wig.
They'll like, they'll be just, and so, and I remember my parents, like
my dad being quite at the time.
Affronted.
Yeah.
Just like, why?
You know, why would you buy him that?
And I was like, well, every other kid, you know, who's obviously
parents are, you know, able to afford to buy, you know, their kids.
presents, you know, the kid who asked for Lego is going to get Lego.
The kid who wants a bike is going to get a bike.
And why can't he have a wig?
Cause he wants to dress up like that.
This doesn't matter.
Like, you know, it's a toy, toys, toys, toys.
And you know, that was a huge thing.
Clothes, clothes, clothes that clothes.
And, you know, he always gravitated towards those sorts of things and
to bright cut, like, you know, and it wasn't because yeah, it
was in any sort of gendered thing.
It's just, that's the things he enjoyed playing with.
And so.
My, I mean, my parents have definitely come around, but that took a really
long time and they were much better with the, the second lot with the, my
nephews, you know, in like, you know, that they'll buy them dolls and things
like that because, you know, kids like to play with all sorts of things.
It's, you know, it's the kids, right?
Yeah.
Um,
Sam: Oh, I played with dolls too.
It
Joe: was also, what is the value that you're trying to pass on to your children?
Ali: They don't have to be limited or restricted to playing only with Lego
because you're a boy or you only get to play with toy cars because you're a boy.
Or you're only allowed to play with Barbies if you're a girl.
Like I very much grew up in a house where it was.
Barbies and dolls and, you know, girly things, having
a sister and no boys around.
So, and I was not that kind of kid.
I very much gravitated towards, I was a bit of a tomboy or whatever.
And so I, you know, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to play with dinosaurs
and, you know, and space thing.
That was my thing.
I was space and dinosaurs.
That was the stuff I wanted to, you know, and would talk at kids, you know, about.
But yeah, I was not so much a Barbie kid.
And then, you know, my son, like, you know.
I mean, and I, and I feel terrible for thinking this, but I remember
when I was pregnant, I was like, Oh my God, yes, someone is going to play
Lego with me and all these things.
He was never really into Lego as much as he was into Barbies.
He just really loved.
Yeah.
Cause.
And, and I mean, but at the same time I was like, well, I'm not going to deny
him, the toys he wants to play with.
Like he always, yeah.
From a really young age, he'd always had Barbies and toys like that because
that's as soon as he could ask for those things, that's what he asked for.
So yeah, I think that's really.
Like you said, they're going to be marketed to, from a really young age.
And I think we were, we were lucky in that we were quite protective of that to, to
a point, as long as, you know, we could.
And then, you know, obviously it's at school and kinder.
Those sorts of things, yeah.
That's right,
Sam: I forgot to say, yeah, sugar, screens and advertising, limit those
as much as possible in the early years and it will pay off hugely,
like, it's going to creep in anyway.
So what's
Joe: next then Sam, you've done that to the best of your ability,
now the youngest one's five, you've got two years left to shape.
Then you've shaped the other one as best as you can to seven.
Mm hmm.
We've done
Sam: it.
Mm hmm.
Well, well, let's say that I'm the thing the larger thing I'm pointing to
with all these examples of you know, sugar and Gendering and all of this.
It's not really about those things in particular what it's about It's
about freedom in a meaningful sense like not just individual freedom,
but actually Putting in place The intellectual and physical substrata
you need to actually have something resembling meaningful freedom.
So the assault of advertising, the effect of sugar on behaviour
and so on, and gendering.
To me, all of that is counter to freedom.
And people will say, oh, but they love it.
Okay, but there's actually a compulsion here.
And where there's compulsion, there's a lack of freedom.
So I think one of the big things that was driving my parenting was trying to
avoid addiction pathways, basically.
So I think that's, you know, for you, you wanted to avoid the
violence and things like that.
Totally fair.
And it sounds like that effort was very successful.
It remains to be seen, you know, how successful my efforts to, at the very
least, avoid Cultivating addiction pathways within the kids, if I could
help it, and there's a lot of great science on this, lots of screen and
lots of sugar early on, helps build those addiction pathways later.
Now, the addiction pathways are there, though, anyway, so you can't
just have a, you can't just keep the environment sanitary, right?
What you, this prohibition First phase, that led eventually into a more
realistic assessment of, well, these influences are going to be there.
Now I have to help them to navigate it and moderate sort of use.
Yeah, I have to help them with moderation.
Am I in a position to help them with moderation?
Oh, what do I need to learn about moderation?
So this is what I really want to say.
I actually went from going, I'm going to control the environment
and then I'm going to transmit this.
Now, I've given up.
On that second one, I still think it's worth trying to control
the environment to a degree.
But what I now, I'm on my focus 90% of the time, is trying to be in the moment with
them and to negotiate the things as they arise and then just listen and respond.
And now look, actually, I don't think at any point I said, here,
sit down and listen to this music.
I've actually never done that.
My left wing environmental politics and gender politics have come
in just, but fairly organically.
I haven't lectured or laid it out, given them a manifesto to live by, but I have
tried to actually more and more over time be led by their interests and so whatever
they get into, I get into it as well and learn about it and see the value in it
and then just try to sort of maximize.
The good stuff that's coming out of Pokemon or coming out of,
dolls, you know, or whatever.
And so the thing I'm really trying to transmit is, people working together
to help each other through this difficult and fascinating journey.
That's, that's really the value that I'm trying to transmit.
I don't actually have universal, long lasting, permanent
answers that I can give them.
Do I?
No.
We'd never
Ali: say it.
But like, yeah, no, I think that's, it's very similar.
And like, I remember my son's father saying that there, and I
Sam: say sorry a lot.
Forgetting things wrong.
And I say, here's what I got wrong and here's why.
And here's what I'm going to try and do better next time.
So yeah.
Yeah.
And
Ali: I say learning to apologize in front of your kid.
That's a huge, that was a huge thing.
And yeah, I do it all the time.
Yeah.
Like I, yeah, I do too.
And like, it's never something I heard growing up, but my son's
father, I remember him saying that like, there are enough.
Pricks and assholes in the world.
, we don't wanna be putting Yeah.
Like another one out there.
That was like our biggest goal was Oh yeah.
We just didn't want to raise an asshole as a child.
Oh man.
And so that, so important.
Like that was and yeah, for their sake.
For God's sake, yeah.
For, yeah.
And like everyone else.
And I'm enormously proud of him and like, and my kid is.
You know, and every parents, you know, yeah, like, you know, my child's amazing.
And I love, you know, they say this and that or whatever, but like I, it
is, it has been constantly reinforced.
Like, Oh you, his mom, like, you know, you know, he came up to me,
you know, my little preppy and was helped him, you know, the other day,
you know, get to class or whatever.
And like, he's always been that kid that's always stepped in to help.
And I think like, that's the thing I'm most proud of.
That's what you want to see.
Yeah.
I remember this one time.
and he came up to me and he had this like box of like biscuits and there was
a sticker on the top and it said free and I was like what the, what is this?
And like he's like the lady at the bakery gave me to them I was like Like, what?
Like, what do you, why on earth would she give you this box of biscuits?
Anyway.
What sorcery is this?
Yeah.
So I walked past the bakery and I was like, did you give these to him?
And she was like, Oh yeah, he comes in here every morning before
school and has a chat to me.
And he's always so polite.
And she goes, I had these leftover biscuits.
And so I just thought I'll give them to him.
Like that is my kid.
Like he's, he's that nice, kind, sociable, lovely little kid.
And so I think that, yeah.
I just didn't ever, yeah, like, you know, and that's not to say he can't
be an arsehole or can't be a prick, you know, all teenagers, yeah, I want him
to be able to bite back or to say stuff or like, you know, to pull people up.
But for the most part, he is such a jet, like a kind kid.
And that was his dad and I, that was such a huge thing for us is that we wanted to
put another kind person out there because, and it's not all about him all the time.
And I think there's this misconception.
Particularly too, with only children being Oh, for sure.
Selfish or, yeah.
You know that they're not, you know, community minded or Well,
you've done your best to, yeah.
Like, we've really tried to be that.
It's, it's not just about you all the time.
Like, you know, whether it was in the family dynamic that was, you are one of
three, or if you're in the big family, like, you know, it's what, you're one
of 10 or you're in the class, you're one of 25, your whole life shouldn't
Sam: be determined just by that.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
It's
Ali: just, you know, you, you are a part of, yeah.
Mm-Hmm.
I
Joe: feel like kindness is the universal value that most
people talk about the most now.
Yeah, I think that's a huge thing in the culture, focus on
Sam: hashtag kindness.
And again, I don't think kindness is a simple matter.
I'll
Ali: say.
And it's hard to be kind sometimes.
Like sometimes you don't want to be kind or it doesn't feel natural
Sam: to be kind.
And sometimes what we think is kindness is actually unhelpful and
Ali: vice versa.
So, you know, it's.
learning the nuance around that.
What's a better value
Joe: than kindness?
I don't
Sam: think there is a, if we have to pick a single bloody
word, yeah, then that one's fine.
Probably the best one, isn't it?
Look, I
Joe: think any, I think any, simplest sense without complicating it.
I'm all
Sam: about dialectic.
Any single word philosophy is faulty at its core.
It just doesn't matter.
What does dialectic mean?
That everything exists in relation to other things.
So what does kindness mean?
Well, what are we defining it against?
Capitalism.
Well, sure.
Okay.
But when we say You know, sometimes you see, be kind and it's delivered through
gritted teeth, you know what I'm saying?
So, yeah,
Ali: there's no point in just pretending to be kind or
giving the face of being kind.
You have to actually be
Sam: kind.
Actual kindness.
There's a slogan or real kindness or I
Ali: don't know.
Wanted and appreciated like this, you know, you could be trying to be
kind to somebody who it's absolutely not appropriate to be kind in that
Joe: moment.
See, my 14 year old has an edge to her, which I recognize as my own.
And I like that edge, but a 10 year old would have no idea how to do anything
Sam: other than be kind.
So you want to critique kindness also?
That's good.
That's a healthy instinct.
Not
Joe: really.
I mean, I was still strongly, and I've been talking to her about,
you know, difficult politics with, you know, people at her school.
I've emphasized that you need to be kind to people like, even if they're not kind
to you, you, like as hard as that is, or if you can't be kind back to them,
go and find someone else and be kind to them, but don't turn it into a flame war,
Sam: you know, resentment, avoid resentments.
Yeah.
Um,
Joe: there's that one again.
But I, look, I thought about this topic all week.
Oh good.
And, which I know you don't do Sam, but, I think about
Sam: everything all the time,
Joe: um, but no, you're right.
And in terms of what I most want to pass on to my kids, it is to be
very curious about the nature of consciousness and be very curious
about what this is you're experiencing and don't let it be defined for you.
As you are an individual.
with a certain identity, having a certain finite experience.
I know, we're in complete agreement on that.
Stay open to the openness of consciousness and start to learn how open it is
and realize That you're not, things are not what they first seem, and you
need to explore that, and re explore that, and have experiences with that.
That's what I most want to pass on to my children, which is why I gave
Scarlet the power of now, because it encapsulates it very well.
About coming into the present moment as a spiritual practice, and then having
a profound experience of consciousness.
As a sort of God consciousness, I guess, which is open, which
is what everyone's having.
It's just, most people never recognize it.
Well, that's what
Sam: my mother was trying to transmit to me as well, pretty much exactly.
The, the value of compassion and kindness and the, uh, cultivate God consciousness.
That's what she was trying to get across to me.
And that all religions were on the same page in most respects.
And that everybody walks a hard road and, you know, kindness and God is
how we're going to get through this.
And yeah, you and her would have gotten along famously, I'm sure.
And well now, but not 10 years ago.
Maybe
Joe: not.
Oh God, no.
Not when I was a hardline
Sam: atheist.
No.
Yeah.
No, but you guys would have had a great time talking about pantheism
and syncretism and meditation and, you know, mantra and prayer and all of that.
And you know, she played That's
Joe: the stuff, the consciousness expansion stuff is the stuff I wish I'd
found earlier and a spiritual life I wish I'd found much, much earlier in my life.
Uh, you know, the last episode I was kind of berating Ali to try and get her to at
least open the door just a little bit to all of this, you know, but you can't, and
I can't do it with my children either, like they might both be hardline atheists.
I've got good
Sam: news, Joe, I've detected, I've not had to.
Get my oldest to like, you know, probably open the doors of perception,
Aldous Huxley, and you know, critique conceptual reality and connect with the
divine and the one, he, he just does it.
Like he comes out with, yeah, he just comes out with stuff and
I'm like, oh yeah, you get it.
I don't really need to tell you anything.
Like, he asks the kind of questions, I'm like, no, no, you've You've got this.
The only time I have to, maybe it was like, Oh, okay.
Some of these questions are heavy.
Like you don't need to hold them heavily.
Like, you know, it's okay.
These questions are, they're no, they're actually not
heavier than any other question.
Like what to have for dinner.
Now that's a heavy question.
You know, if the universe would have existed, if, you
know what, what's for dinner.
Now that's a hard question, you know, but all these questions are one, is what I'm
saying, but you're asking the right ones.
You know, good kid.
and certainly that, and it points back to that thing I was trying to say earlier
about like avoiding the simplistic and, living with others in connection
and living in connection to concepts as all just connections rather than
absolute things that stand on their own.
And so for me, the point of all that is the practice of meaningful freedom.
And you're looking for that in a spiritual direction, which is.
Not a bad, uh, instinct and me, I'm kind of maybe looking at it a little bit more
materialistically, but not entirely.
Like I'm really interested in phenomenology and
Joe: psychology.
So hang on, you want your children to experience maximum
freedom in their lifetimes?
I
Sam: mean, meaningful freedom.
I mean, to live the kind of lives where they're making conscious
choices based on reflection on experience and not just being driven
by desires and fears constantly.
Joe: So you assume that they have
Sam: free will?
Uh, it is an axiomatic, I'm putting the axiom in there, but I'm really
avoiding the issue to a degree.
Yeah.
As much as, look, I've got a couple of very brilliant friends, including
you that I have destroyed free will in front of me many times, but I stubbornly
Joe: persist with the illusion of it.
It's another one of those useful illusions, I think.
I agree.
It's hard to run any other operating system, so even though it's not
real, you may as well just act as if you have choices, you know.
And I certainly experience things as if I'm making decisions.
Whether I could ever have made a different decision, I'll never know.
Sam: Well, correct, because what we're both pointing to here is
a functional common morality.
And like, we can't, I don't understand how you're supposed to operate.
Joe: That's why I don't think kindness is actually that complicated,
because generally we know the difference between right and wrong.
Sam: That's one thing, okay, but also So, the
Joe: morality, I would
Sam: say, is I have to make sure the conscience
Joe: develops properly.
The morality is, for most of us, is pretty hardwired and, you know, we
Ali: Yes, yes.
No, but the sense of right and wrong will very much come from the things
that you experience and observe and what you're told is right and wrong.
Joe: For teenagers, we'll have a stronger sense of it than we will.
yeah, yes, true.
Why they often speak with such clarity on things like climate change.
Yes.
Like, well, this is wrong.
Sam: Yes.
But again, but they're shaped and guided by the discourse around them as well.
Cause you have
Ali: like, yeah, somebody who's grown up, say in like a far right.
Christian, you know, white nationalist kind of experience.
They will feel
Sam: very strongly that homosexuality is bad.
Yeah, exactly.
It will invoke that same sense of justice.
So the
Joe: way that Adam says right and wrong aligns with your values?
Ali: Yeah, very similar.
I mean, we do have disagreements.
Joe: Yeah, you guys are probably right.
Yeah.
Maybe it's not hard wired.
Maybe it's just conditioned
Sam: into them.
I think the chemical pathways are the biological substrate, but then the inputs.
The
Ali: inputs are different.
Yeah.
Is Adam quite woke?
Joe: Yes, like me.
Yeah.
Hell woke.
Yes.
Yeah.
But, but he's also Are you a self identifier as woke?
Yeah.
Ali: But like I think he's also
Joe: He might be the only person in the world.
Okay.
No, but
Ali: like as in
Sam: like The original meaning of woke Joe was exactly the thing
you're talking about, being aware that reality's not simple and
Ali: you know.
And I just, I don't know.
I mean, yeah, I think he's, but I think he's got a bit more of a
nuanced take than I'd say your average
Sam: woke.
Yeah.
He's not a libtard.
Is
Joe: politics essentially identity politics?
Sam: No, no, I would say he's more of a socialist.
Yeah, he's
Ali: a socialist.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So he
Sam: working class is the identity you need.
Yeah.
Ali: So no, I think, yeah, he's proletariat.
He's very, very much.
Yeah.
And very well read on it and, and interested in it.
Sam: Oh yeah.
They're going to kick some shit off
Ali: those guys.
Yeah.
I mean, I feel really hopeful like I, and yeah.
And it's, and like I said, I think it comes from a considered place.
I don't think he's just parroting news that he's heard from either his parents
or from what he's heard at school.
I think he's very much.
The kind of kid who will want to, you know, it has been also raised.
I think we have tried to, to question things and to, you know, to do your own
research and come to your own conclusion.
And I feel like Critical kindness.
There we go.
Critical kindness.
Yeah, very much.
Like I think he's been, and feels confident enough, you know, when he,
yeah, there have been things that he's like, Oh, I mean, I don't know
how I feel about that or like, yeah.
And you know, or is this right?
Or not just.
For the sake of it, but for the genuine, what is the right, you
know, way to move forward with this.
Yeah.
Sam: That's one way I try to help is to like, try and get the kids, cause this is
the thing I've been learning only myself more recently, try and stop and notice
like what's happening inside me right now.
Like, um, um, oh, oh, okay.
Okay.
Oh, how does that feel right now?
Like, are you experiencing confusion or doubt?
Like, okay, what's that like?
What are some of the things you're reaching for?
Like, what are your first thoughts?
Okay, do you have any others?
All right, now let's sort through those and, you know,
developing those sort of habits.
That's what, that's what I'm getting at with the freedom thing, that we're
not just slaves to our trauma or our conditioning or psychosis or neurosis
Joe: and like Yeah, I mean, what's coming to me if I had to sum it up pithily
would be, be, stay curious and stay kind.
Yeah, that's great, yeah, that works.
You know The
Ali: curious, I think, is actually really important.
Like, to question and to be curious and to be involved.
I think that's, that's really important.
Joe: I was curious, except for On matters of spirituality, I
think that's where I was close.
I had a closed door now, like all atheists, otherwise you're an agnostic.
If you've closed the door, then you're an atheist.
I agree with that.
And you're no longer curious.
And when you have, when you start having spiritual experiences, it's going to
Sam: be a shock.
Now, but can I ask a more probing question about that, though?
Were you not curious?
You've just said you weren't curious about it.
Now, is that the kind of curiosity that comes from an atheist?
A complete absence of any understanding that there's something interesting
there or a conscious decision.
There's nothing interesting
Joe: there.
I don't look, I would encourage my kids to take LSD, not now, but when they're older,
Sam: 25,
Ali: 28, 35,
Sam: 40,
Joe: 40, because that was probably the most profound thing I learned under
the age of 21 was what I saw on LSD.
And I guess that was the part of
Sam: Neurological development doesn't really stop at any point, but there's
a lot of development still going on up
Joe: 14 take LSD, I'm saying
Sam: Up to 28, brain development.
Profound.
Joe: If you're going to be curious, there is no Better eight hours you
can spend than a large dose of LSD.
Sam: But no, but there's so many ways to get there.
Joe: Like, I'll take that to my grade.
It's fascinating.
I don't think you should do it all
Sam: the time.
Okay, but what can we do now with 10 year olds, for example, or 14 year olds?
Joe: Well, get them to, you know, read a book instead of bloody looking at their
Sam: iPad.
For sure, read a book, but also just natural, just good old Socratic
dialogue, natural philosophy.
You know, get the glass of water, put a stick in it.
Hey kids, what do you notice?
Oh.
The stick is bent.
What the hell's going on there?
So that's the observation that Descartes makes at the beginning
of Meditations on First Philosophy.
That all sounds really hard to understand.
It's not.
It's a very simple book.
At the end of the day, he just says, look, notice that the senses
have misled you on this occasion.
Does this happen?
In other things can we trust the senses ultimately what is the basis of knowledge?
Joe: You're a teacher I'm not
Sam: Anyone can put a stick in a glass of water and say
Joe: what's going on?
I just don't engage with my kids that way or the way that Ali engages with her kid,
but Something I'm getting something right.
I agree Yeah, we're playing my natural game and my natural game is kind of
like the father on the armchair But that is a very If you take away the
patriarchal baggage of that, that's a very stable thing in two girls lives,
is this steady, present, father figure, but I don't get down so much on their
level, and I never have, I've never, I've never done all those things you read
about in the parenting books that make for great parenting, but I've ended up
with kids Yeah, who really love me and I really love them and we have a great
relationship and they're great kids.
I mean, I've been reading their reports this week.
They're objectively pretty great kids and they're well socialized
and And their mom has done probably about 80 percent of that.
So, so that's the other things for the last eight years I've actually
been in and even before that because I was the main breadwinner I've always
only had to play the bit part role.
Mm hmm But the shock when Scarlet started reading that
book was ah, I'm not I matter.
I actually matter to these children.
I am influencing them.
And that's a delusion that I walk around with a lot, which is that
I kind of almost don't exist.
Oh, sure.
Right?
So that's, now I'm just like, it was a real slap in the face.
Like, fuck, okay.
And then it was exciting because it's like, oh, maybe I can find
some other books and hand them.
And then, like you said, talk about the ideas.
I started talking to Scarlett about the ideas in The Power of Now and And,
and she said, well, I've always said dad, everything happens for a reason.
I'm like, you never said that to me before.
And I was like, I had to go away and think about that.
Sam: So what were her first takeaways from the, like, what was like, do you remember
anything she said early on in reading it?
Joe: No, she's, I mean, she's still just starting out reading it, but she, it
Sam: just struck a chord with her immediately.
It's the kind of thing
Joe: you either, you're either interested or you're not.
If you're interested, then you're on a certain track.
Agreed.
Because that book is pretty all encompassing, it basically says If you
get what I'm saying, then the rest of your life is basically an illusion.
All that really matters is your present moment experience.
And that present moment experience is an incredibly profound one.
Everything else, your entire future and your entire past, is a complete
illusion and you need to drop it.
Like radically, just completely drop it.
Oh
Sam: man, that's what my wife's father was Very, very keen to transmit to, you
know, his children and, you know, they all turned out resolutely pragmatic
and not especially interested, uh, Oh, my beloved father in law who passed
away three years ago, three years ago, actually, you know, shortly.
And you know, he, cause he, he had a very difficult, you know, a set of difficult
experiences after, you know, leaving his home country and moving to Australia
and, you know, experiencing a loss of status and, you know, but showed him.
I think a marvellous role model of like just trying things and just going,
I'm going to start this business.
I'm going to do this and a lot of, a lot of cool or interesting things that
he tried and, you know, sure, not all of them succeeded, but, and then he
discovered Buddhism, meditation in the, in the eighties, as a lot of people did.
And, uh, you know, worked through, You know, things that were holding him back,
his personal development, and then really was keen to pass that on to the kids.
Cause this is the other thing, when does this process end?
So in his, it doesn't.
So in his, the last 10 years of his life, he was, I would say working
harder than ever, but in a more subtle way to like influence and like bring
something positive from like all that wisdom you've gained after, you know,
it's like, he was constantly saying that to me over, over lunch or dinner.
Oh Sam, there is no You know, there is no past.
You know that, don't you?
And I'm like, no, no, that's, that's not a fact.
That's a useful way of looking at things though.
And he's like, no, no, no, it's true.
There is no past.
Like, there is no future.
He was just hammering away at me.
This is
Joe: something that only humans have ever invented that aren't,
that are two complete illusions.
And, and I think he was just And so much anxiety and
Sam: pain.
He was driven by compassion.
He really, yes.
You can just drop it all.
That's what he was Sky's off the past and the future.
Exactly.
He was looking at me and seeing the guilt and the pain and the shame, and
he was responding with compassion.
And he was like, here's what you need to know.
And the monkey, there's a monkey in your brain and it's torturing you.
Just tell the monkey to be quiet.
There's no past, there's no
Joe: future.
I was like, wow.
That the power of now gets in and, and meditation, hopefully in
for Scarlet is the balm that she needs if her mental health does.
Take knocks, and she does struggle with things and anxiety.
Yes, you need protective.
Does come together and depression does come for her.
The answer is going to be to come into the present moment.
Yes, you know, and appreciate what's right in front of you.
That's the only answer to come out of depression and anxiety.
Sam: Oh, 100%.
No, I agree completely.
And that was what one of the things that really helped me was, I mean, I
was terrified at the present moment, basically did not want to be there
and As I gradually began to recover, and who knows which, you know, which
thing comes first, or it all happens at the same time, but gradually going,
I actually can tolerate the present.
Not only that, there are possibilities in the present that don't exist
in the past or the future.
Yeah.
All of them.
There are no possibilities elsewhere.
And that was cool.
And dad tried to set me up with that as well when I was a kid.
And I think that, eventually it did get through at a time when it was needed.
So.
You know, we can try and prepare them as best we can, I suppose.
Hopefully.
But
Joe: it's interesting, isn't it?
Yeah.
Like, that's how Western way is.
A book is what's going to transmit.
You still have the written word, you know.
Sam: I'm much more about the dialogue, the dialectic, the bouncing it back and
Joe: forth.
Well, wait till your kids can read an adult book though,
you might be quite excited.
Sam: But that's what all those old Greek books are, they're all dialogues.
Like, written down,
Joe: but like, now is actually a dialogue.
Yeah, there you go.
There's someone asking questions all
Sam: the way through.
Yeah.
Look, I won't dismiss books.
I don't want to be Sam's famous anti book stance.
Um, I think what I'm more pointing at is that like a linear text
can really work like here, sit down, read the power of now.
I, that's a good move for sure.
But I think where the power really lies is batting it back and forth
and like turning it into something.
I
Joe: would say that the power lies in practice.
It agreed.
Yeah.
And it is.
So for me, so still the Buddhist practices, which will get me
most into the present moment.
Like most meditators, I know it's just real struggle to do them
with any discipline and rigor.
Like the things that come and go and then you do them and it's always so good that
afterwards, just like the gym, you're like, Oh, I got to do that more often,
you know, but you don't, you just don't.
So yeah, I think we can probably wrap it up quite productively.
Sam: And we shout out to my dad, his wise friend, Bill Hicks,
who passed away a few years ago.
He always used to say, at the end of a wise chat between the
two of them, Yep, but does it change what you do in the morning?
Joe: Your dad was friends with Bill Hicks?
No, different Bill Hicks.
Different Bill Hicks, but also American?
Sam: He was basically a similar guy in a few ways, yeah.
Right.
Yeah, he was a tripper, and a truth teller, and a crazy man.
Does it change what you're doing in the morning?
Does it
Joe: change what you do in the morning?
I've been told that the way you wake up, the state you wake up in emotionally,
is your true spiritual condition.
Oh God.
Whoa.
Mine is terrible.
Sam: Mine's a worry.
I've
Joe: steadily improved.
Let's hope that's not true though.
Oh God.
Let's just cut that out.
Sam: No, no, leave it in.
We need to keep it real for everyone else.
Keep it real for the kids, you know, but like, my consciousness started off
bad today and it's steadily improved.
I want to say that.
Joe: So, um.
That's every day for me, pretty much.
Yeah.
I think we should wrap it up.
That's right.
Does everyone want to find a word on what they want to pass
on to their children, Ali?
No, I think
Ali: we've really, no, I'm just.
Joe: Sounds like you've already perfected your child.
Ali: My child is
Sam: perfect now.
Ali gets four points.
He's
Joe: like, what are you going to pass on?
He's cooked.
Ali: He's done.
I'm pretty much done.
Like, I'm just hanging out till he's 18.
No, I just, I feel, I don't know.
I, it's one of the few things in my life that I, I'm genuinely proud of that I
haven't fucked up, because I fucked up just about everything else, but I don't
feel like I fucked him up yet, or at least not enough that he's, you know, that
Joe: it's a worry.
Sam said you pass at seven, at seven years old you're done.
Oh, no, no, no, I,
Sam: that was my original view.
But then like, and I think there's a lot in it, but what I eventually
came to was like, oh, it's never too late to make adjustments.
Like we can't give up here on the present.
Ali: No, and I think, yeah, even watching Don't you
Joe: find you're just watching them emerge though, rather than sculpting them?
Oh God, that's
Sam: what I'm saying.
Ali: Yeah, yeah, it is.
It's
Sam: both.
Joe: Like they come with so much pre programmed personality, it's like
Ali: fucking hell.
It's just more just nudging, a little nudging in the right direction if
things feel a little bit like Yeah.
Yeah.
Sam: Nudging, holding, loosening, boundaries sometimes, hard
Joe: boundaries sometimes.
I don't know, I mean, I don't know your five year old Sam, but the couple of
times she's come out here I was like, oh, no one's telling that kid what to do.
Oh, no, no, you're right.
She's kind of like the wild kid.
No, no, she's
Sam: incredibly strong willed, yes, yes, I, I admire it greatly and it defeats
me occasionally, often, every day.
Ali: No, I think there's, there's something for willful children, I think
it's actually a wonderful quality.
I'm
Sam: not going to crush it out of her, but I am going to try and, um,
Ali: shift you, yeah.
It's trying to channel it into a way that's actually really
productive and good and, yeah.
Useful and helpful rather, because it can be like, yeah, your
greatest asset, but also yeah.
Sam: Totally.
Yeah.
If I, if I tried to meet her unstoppable force with an immovable object,
it's just going to produce neurosis.
Like, I don't want to do that.
It's like, you have to, you're going to have to find your way
through this willfulness yourself and learn to take a suggestion from
someone else from time to time.
And you'll figure that out eventually.
I got it by 40, so.
You know, there's hope for her.
Yeah.
Well, uh, thanks everyone.
Thank you.
Joe: This has been another one of the 10, 000
Sam: things.
Ooh.
Okay.
Now that's an outro.
Bye.
Ali: Bye.