1 00:00:00,542 --> 00:00:03,804 [Tyson]: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It's actually, it's been a little while 2 00:00:03,844 --> 00:00:08,709 [Tyson]: I was reflecting the other day on some of the athletes that I used to run around with 3 00:00:08,749 --> 00:00:13,533 [Tyson]: here in Ballarat. And one of the Aussies that I reckon you might have run against a 4 00:00:13,633 --> 00:00:16,616 [Tyson]: few times is a friend of mine by the name of Collis Birmingham, 5 00:00:17,047 --> 00:00:17,299 [Ben]: Yep. 6 00:00:17,056 --> 00:00:22,241 [Tyson]: who he was on the international scene. And I thought I just jumped across to have 7 00:00:22,261 --> 00:00:26,364 [Tyson]: a little freshen up on some of your PBs last night. And I noticed that your profile 8 00:00:26,404 --> 00:00:30,192 [Tyson]: picture with World Athletics. is you leading Coles at the 2013 9 00:00:29,602 --> 00:00:30,110 [Ben]: Hehehehe 10 00:00:31,133 --> 00:00:35,056 [Tyson]: World Cross Country Championships. But that's gone back a few years, man. What's 11 00:00:35,096 --> 00:00:35,336 [Tyson]: new is 12 00:00:35,486 --> 00:00:35,867 [Ben]: Yeah, I used 13 00:00:35,757 --> 00:00:35,897 [Tyson]: that... 14 00:00:35,887 --> 00:00:38,493 [Ben]: to roll with him and Benny Saint as well. Yeah. 15 00:00:38,598 --> 00:00:43,682 [Tyson]: Oh, two of the two of the best blokes going around Benny St. Lawrence is a fantastic 16 00:00:43,722 --> 00:00:47,565 [Tyson]: fellow. He was a big inspiration of mine actually, cause I was a, a little bit 17 00:00:47,605 --> 00:00:50,247 [Tyson]: of a later developer in the world of athletics and 18 00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:50,443 [Ben]: Yeah. 19 00:00:50,367 --> 00:00:55,011 [Tyson]: he started relatively young and then left the sport and got fat for a couple 20 00:00:54,782 --> 00:00:55,183 [Ben]: Yeah, 21 00:00:55,051 --> 00:00:55,432 [Tyson]: of years 22 00:00:55,244 --> 00:00:56,167 [Ben]: he has a great story. 23 00:00:56,773 --> 00:01:00,576 [Tyson]: and then came back and just started absolutely ripping it up at about like age 24 00:01:00,616 --> 00:01:06,381 [Tyson]: 25 or 26. And once I saw him tearing it up at 25 or 26, I thought, okay, don't hang 25 00:01:06,401 --> 00:01:08,491 [Tyson]: up the spikes just yet. Oh. I'll give it a few 26 00:01:08,439 --> 00:01:08,917 [Ben]: Yeah. 27 00:01:08,532 --> 00:01:13,224 [Tyson]: more years, but yeah, that's going back, man. So were there any other Aussies? 28 00:01:13,244 --> 00:01:17,093 [Tyson]: Did you race much against Motrum or was he sort of phasing out as you were peaking? 29 00:01:17,114 --> 00:01:24,257 [Ben]: No, I mean, I definitely raced him, but he was phasing out by the time I was coming 30 00:01:24,317 --> 00:01:31,540 [Ben]: up. But I do remember he and I raced, we went one, two in a battle in Crystal Palace 31 00:01:31,620 --> 00:01:33,181 [Ben]: many, many years ago. 32 00:01:35,050 --> 00:01:38,312 [Tyson]: I didn't realize the stature that you reached with some of your times. Like if I 33 00:01:38,332 --> 00:01:42,255 [Tyson]: had of guessed, I thought you were sort of a 13, 15 man. And then last night as 34 00:01:42,315 --> 00:01:46,858 [Tyson]: I was reading through the world athletics profile, I thought, I've cut him off well and 35 00:01:46,898 --> 00:01:47,258 [Tyson]: truly. 36 00:01:47,286 --> 00:01:47,952 [Ben]: Hehehehe 37 00:01:47,538 --> 00:01:52,782 [Tyson]: So 1302, a couple of the Diamond League or Crystal Palace victories, 38 00:01:52,574 --> 00:01:53,400 [Ben]: Yep, yep, 39 00:01:53,402 --> 00:01:54,823 [Tyson]: if I'm not wrong. So 40 00:01:54,811 --> 00:01:55,033 [Ben]: yeah. 41 00:01:54,863 --> 00:01:58,025 [Tyson]: what was your, you were kind of 5,000 meters at the end of it. That was probably 42 00:01:58,566 --> 00:02:02,709 [Tyson]: between five and 10. Like I saw 27, 16 bloody good as well. But I was trying to 43 00:02:02,729 --> 00:02:07,696 [Tyson]: weigh up which one I thought was better. But they're both, I mean 1302 sounds 44 00:02:07,662 --> 00:02:07,822 [Ben]: Well, 45 00:02:07,736 --> 00:02:07,957 [Tyson]: pretty 46 00:02:07,842 --> 00:02:08,022 [Ben]: so the 47 00:02:07,977 --> 00:02:08,137 [Tyson]: good. 48 00:02:08,062 --> 00:02:14,386 [Ben]: third unit too was pre-Super Shoes, right? The 10K was after the Super Shoes, the fancy 49 00:02:14,406 --> 00:02:18,489 [Ben]: spikes came around. So, you know, the 5K is probably a little bit better. Ha ha ha. 50 00:02:18,946 --> 00:02:22,687 [Tyson]: I did like 1302, but you're right, it's amazing actually that you mentioned that, 51 00:02:22,707 --> 00:02:29,111 [Tyson]: because I'd had, despite being involved in coaching and this podcast now for nearly 52 00:02:29,151 --> 00:02:33,753 [Tyson]: four years, one thing that blew my mind as I've started to get ready for, long 53 00:02:33,793 --> 00:02:36,955 [Tyson]: story short, I was trying to prepare for the Melbourne Marathon this year, but I 54 00:02:36,995 --> 00:02:40,236 [Tyson]: missed an entry that I'm not gonna abort the audience with all the details, because 55 00:02:40,256 --> 00:02:44,426 [Tyson]: they've heard me bitch about it too many times. One of the things that blew my 56 00:02:44,466 --> 00:02:49,810 [Tyson]: mind was just how much the technology in that shoe department has just increased 57 00:02:49,870 --> 00:02:54,213 [Tyson]: over the last few years. Like I went into a shoe shop here in Victoria in Melbourne 58 00:02:54,233 --> 00:02:57,455 [Tyson]: a couple of weeks ago and I looked at the wall and I was like, I don't really 59 00:02:57,495 --> 00:02:59,657 [Tyson]: know what I'm looking at anymore 60 00:02:59,138 --> 00:02:59,876 [Ben]: Hehehehe 61 00:02:59,917 --> 00:03:03,960 [Tyson]: because we used to have like your structured tri-axis and I was an ASICS man like any of 62 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:05,221 [Tyson]: the GT series 63 00:03:05,067 --> 00:03:05,292 [Ben]: Yep, 64 00:03:05,261 --> 00:03:05,681 [Tyson]: I was pretty 65 00:03:05,578 --> 00:03:05,742 [Ben]: yep. 66 00:03:05,721 --> 00:03:09,544 [Tyson]: comfortable with and familiar with back in the day. But then yet looking at that 67 00:03:09,604 --> 00:03:14,965 [Tyson]: wall I was like man, it's almost I mean, it is a field of expertise for so many 68 00:03:15,005 --> 00:03:17,132 [Tyson]: people now. They've got podcasts dedicated just to 69 00:03:17,166 --> 00:03:17,466 [Ben]: Oh, 70 00:03:17,172 --> 00:03:17,774 [Tyson]: breaking down. 71 00:03:17,566 --> 00:03:23,668 [Ben]: it's unreal. It's unreal. The tech that's gone in now, it's phenomenal. It'll be interesting 72 00:03:24,649 --> 00:03:30,591 [Ben]: to see long term how it handles, because I think it does, these new carbon shoes, super 73 00:03:30,631 --> 00:03:39,295 [Ben]: shoes, does alter some people's gates in a not so beneficial way. But they're so 74 00:03:39,315 --> 00:03:45,697 [Ben]: much faster. And the ability to recover is so much higher in between sessions that. 75 00:03:46,110 --> 00:03:47,277 [Ben]: It's changed the game for sure. 76 00:03:47,838 --> 00:03:51,663 [Tyson]: Yeah, so you're thinking maybe long-term injuries people might face after just 77 00:03:51,678 --> 00:03:53,699 [Ben]: Yeah. 78 00:03:51,683 --> 00:03:53,305 [Tyson]: being exposed to these shoes over the years 79 00:03:54,660 --> 00:04:00,065 [Ben]: But I mean, the trade off is, you know, back in the day when we trained in, you know, 80 00:04:00,305 --> 00:04:04,308 [Ben]: the lightest shoe possible, that was basically nothing. There are a lot of injuries 81 00:04:04,348 --> 00:04:09,533 [Ben]: from that as well. So, you know, it's a trade off that we'll see how it happens. 82 00:04:09,958 --> 00:04:13,740 [Tyson]: What were you racing in back when you were running 1302s? What spikes were you rocking 83 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:13,900 [Tyson]: then? 84 00:04:15,926 --> 00:04:25,529 [Ben]: I was with Saucony and it was the lightest, stiffest spike I could find. It was actually 85 00:04:25,569 --> 00:04:30,770 [Ben]: their 1500 meter spike. I didn't like any of the distance spikes. I thought they 86 00:04:30,790 --> 00:04:38,313 [Ben]: were too flexible and soft. And it was very aggressive. I kept trying to get Saucony 87 00:04:38,333 --> 00:04:42,892 [Ben]: to make more aggressive spikes and they kept telling me We can't sell those that would 88 00:04:42,912 --> 00:04:47,739 [Ben]: break all the, you know, the major market for Asakini was a high school runner, college 89 00:04:47,779 --> 00:04:53,589 [Ben]: runner, and they're like, we'll tear all their Achilles. So I had to make do with 90 00:04:53,869 --> 00:04:56,052 [Ben]: some of the shorter distance spikes to be able to race. 91 00:04:56,874 --> 00:04:59,063 [Tyson]: Yeah, how many years were you with so can he for 92 00:04:59,618 --> 00:05:02,505 [Ben]: I was with them for nine or 10 years. 93 00:05:03,346 --> 00:05:03,946 [Tyson]: Gee, it's 94 00:05:03,889 --> 00:05:04,090 [Ben]: Yeah. 95 00:05:03,966 --> 00:05:07,389 [Tyson]: really interesting actually, just to see how much they're, I know you're an Essex 96 00:05:07,429 --> 00:05:08,089 [Tyson]: man now, aren't you? 97 00:05:08,023 --> 00:05:08,187 [Ben]: Yep. 98 00:05:08,770 --> 00:05:13,354 [Tyson]: But the Salkoni, they sort of, they tripped me out a little bit, because as I said, 99 00:05:13,834 --> 00:05:18,077 [Tyson]: I stepped back into the world of running and knew very little about the shoes. And when 100 00:05:18,097 --> 00:05:21,780 [Tyson]: I was at this shop a few weeks ago, a lady bought out their Salkoni, they're called 101 00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:23,001 [Tyson]: Endorphin Shift 3. 102 00:05:23,123 --> 00:05:23,776 [Ben]: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 103 00:05:23,942 --> 00:05:26,865 [Tyson]: And she goes, oh, these Salkonis are good. And I was like, I honestly didn't know 104 00:05:26,905 --> 00:05:28,962 [Tyson]: that Salkoni ain't good. was the thing, whether 105 00:05:28,941 --> 00:05:29,144 [Ben]: Yeah 106 00:05:28,982 --> 00:05:33,164 [Tyson]: that was marketing or what, but it kind of tripped me out. And what was funny 107 00:05:33,284 --> 00:05:36,625 [Tyson]: was I put them on and I had a little run on the treadmill. And I said to her, I 108 00:05:36,645 --> 00:05:39,686 [Tyson]: go, these feel incredible. She goes, yeah, they've lifted their game. 109 00:05:39,979 --> 00:05:40,289 [Ben]: Yeah. 110 00:05:40,027 --> 00:05:43,168 [Tyson]: I said, oh, that's good. Like, this is Aussie dollars I'm talking about here. But 111 00:05:43,188 --> 00:05:47,010 [Tyson]: she goes, and she goes, and value for money, like you're not gonna do much better 112 00:05:47,030 --> 00:05:49,251 [Tyson]: than this. I said, oh, how much am I paying for that? She goes, these ones are 113 00:05:49,271 --> 00:05:53,993 [Tyson]: 250. I go, come on now, like 250 bucks. That's all can be was what you went to back 114 00:05:54,013 --> 00:05:55,133 [Tyson]: in the day when you're on a budget. 115 00:05:55,490 --> 00:05:56,034 [Ben]: Hehehehe 116 00:05:55,513 --> 00:06:00,363 [Tyson]: But It's actually incredible, even ASICS the last few years, it's been really 117 00:06:00,643 --> 00:06:05,510 [Tyson]: impressive to see. We've got Jess Stenson over here who rocks ASICS and there's quite 118 00:06:05,550 --> 00:06:09,276 [Tyson]: a number of athletes on the international circuit now who are rocking both of those. 119 00:06:09,490 --> 00:06:09,790 [Ben]: Yeah, 120 00:06:09,536 --> 00:06:09,836 [Tyson]: But back 121 00:06:09,810 --> 00:06:09,890 [Ben]: so 122 00:06:09,856 --> 00:06:09,977 [Tyson]: when 123 00:06:09,910 --> 00:06:10,150 [Ben]: they've 124 00:06:09,997 --> 00:06:10,457 [Tyson]: you were rocking. 125 00:06:10,231 --> 00:06:16,538 [Ben]: come back in... 2019 is when ASICS really started upping their game big time and getting 126 00:06:16,558 --> 00:06:21,484 [Ben]: back into it and really putting a lot of new tech and a lot of new R&D into their 127 00:06:21,504 --> 00:06:25,909 [Ben]: shoes and making them something special again. So they're doing really well. 128 00:06:26,438 --> 00:06:30,680 [Tyson]: You sort of naturally just have to, like when it's interesting when a company like 129 00:06:31,220 --> 00:06:34,921 [Tyson]: Nike starts just throwing out things like the Vaporflys, it's been incredible to 130 00:06:34,961 --> 00:06:36,982 [Tyson]: watch just the response of 131 00:06:37,152 --> 00:06:37,505 [Ben]: Yeah. 132 00:06:37,723 --> 00:06:40,624 [Tyson]: other companies. That's one thing that I've found really interesting as well. Just 133 00:06:40,644 --> 00:06:44,966 [Tyson]: before I hit record, I mentioned the young Aussie guy, Ken Myers, who is running 134 00:06:44,986 --> 00:06:50,768 [Tyson]: 333 and at 17 years old, back when I was competing, like the fastest I've ever 135 00:06:50,788 --> 00:06:56,035 [Tyson]: been was 349. And that was okay here in the state. But they, that would win a lot 136 00:06:56,055 --> 00:07:01,579 [Tyson]: of races here, but, uh, like on a local level, but then you have a bloke like that 137 00:07:01,899 --> 00:07:05,782 [Tyson]: go out and run three 33. Then there's another New Zealand guy who stepped up to the 138 00:07:05,802 --> 00:07:09,064 [Tyson]: plate and starts running around the same time. There's a Norwegian kid who's 18 139 00:07:09,544 --> 00:07:13,627 [Tyson]: running three 32. It seems it doesn't matter if it's in sort of the, the development 140 00:07:13,687 --> 00:07:18,551 [Tyson]: of technology or in the improvement in times being run. There seems to be something 141 00:07:18,591 --> 00:07:23,311 [Tyson]: in the air that when someone pushes something to a new threshold. people tend to 142 00:07:23,351 --> 00:07:24,152 [Tyson]: follow pretty quickly. 143 00:07:24,352 --> 00:07:24,662 [Ben]: Yeah. 144 00:07:24,413 --> 00:07:28,379 [Tyson]: I can't remember the exact stat, but I remember up until Roger Bannister broke the 145 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:32,306 [Tyson]: four minute mile, it was something that was just never gonna be done. And I might 146 00:07:32,326 --> 00:07:36,052 [Tyson]: be exaggerating here, but I wanna say in the next couple of years, like a hundred 147 00:07:36,092 --> 00:07:36,733 [Tyson]: athletes did it. 148 00:07:38,122 --> 00:07:44,087 [Ben]: Yeah, no, it's crazy. I mean, it's the psychological piece, right? As soon as a barrier 149 00:07:44,107 --> 00:07:50,112 [Ben]: is broken or was deemed impossible or hard to do, once it's done and it's been done 150 00:07:50,152 --> 00:07:56,657 [Ben]: by somebody that you've raced against in the past or is kind of like you, it makes 151 00:07:56,697 --> 00:08:03,483 [Ben]: it much easier to do it, again, for anybody. And that's the same thing. But I think also 152 00:08:03,583 --> 00:08:10,679 [Ben]: in today's connected world, people just know a lot more about training, know a lot 153 00:08:10,739 --> 00:08:18,101 [Ben]: more about opportunities to race and they're just more educated. And so at a younger 154 00:08:18,201 --> 00:08:22,062 [Ben]: age, and they're able to translate that a little bit better. I mean, I knew when I 155 00:08:22,082 --> 00:08:28,344 [Ben]: was growing up, I grew up in Maine and small state in the US, and I didn't know that 156 00:08:28,464 --> 00:08:35,306 [Ben]: running existed outside of Maine. And so, you know, my training. Once I got to my 157 00:08:35,366 --> 00:08:42,149 [Ben]: first national caliber meat, I looked up to, it was Chris Salinski. I remember him 158 00:08:42,189 --> 00:08:46,511 [Ben]: saying, you know, he used to run a hundred mile weeks in high school. And I'd go back 159 00:08:46,531 --> 00:08:51,193 [Ben]: to my hotel room and add up all the miles that I ran that week. And the biggest week 160 00:08:51,233 --> 00:08:57,756 [Ben]: I've ever did was 25 miles. And like, I never knew there's somebody could run more. 161 00:08:58,516 --> 00:09:04,577 [Ben]: And so, you know, just the more you learn, and you learn that What you don't know is out 162 00:09:04,617 --> 00:09:08,144 [Ben]: there. It kind of elevates the whole game. 163 00:09:08,346 --> 00:09:08,566 [Tyson]: That's a 164 00:09:08,585 --> 00:09:08,645 [Ben]: And 165 00:09:08,606 --> 00:09:08,806 [Tyson]: really 166 00:09:08,685 --> 00:09:08,945 [Ben]: so that's... 167 00:09:08,826 --> 00:09:14,111 [Tyson]: good point man, he was a big inspiration of mine actually where what are you 37? So 168 00:09:14,171 --> 00:09:16,613 [Tyson]: you're a year older than me So we probably admired a lot of the same 169 00:09:16,458 --> 00:09:16,660 [Ben]: Yeah, 170 00:09:16,653 --> 00:09:16,993 [Tyson]: athletes 171 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:16,963 [Ben]: oh yeah, 172 00:09:17,033 --> 00:09:17,273 [Tyson]: growing 173 00:09:17,145 --> 00:09:17,347 [Ben]: yeah. 174 00:09:17,313 --> 00:09:21,456 [Tyson]: up But he was one that I like because I thought if a bloke with quads and a torso 175 00:09:21,078 --> 00:09:21,721 [Ben]: Hahaha! 176 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:26,440 [Tyson]: that big can run 2659 they're still hoping the game because that was one thing 177 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:30,023 [Tyson]: that I was different definitely carried around the tracks I had I had legs that were 178 00:09:30,043 --> 00:09:32,465 [Tyson]: designed more for a footballer than a middle distance runner. So 179 00:09:32,432 --> 00:09:32,976 [Ben]: Hehehehe 180 00:09:32,918 --> 00:09:36,840 [Tyson]: I saw him and was inspired for a different reason, but it's a really good point. Another 181 00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:40,863 [Tyson]: guy that I'd been really interested in more recently for the same reasons that 182 00:09:40,903 --> 00:09:45,806 [Tyson]: you just touched on, just the abundance of knowledge that's out there is Jakob Ingebrigsten. 183 00:09:45,846 --> 00:09:50,068 [Tyson]: Just seeing how young he was when he started to really lay down some of the miles. 184 00:09:50,088 --> 00:09:53,931 [Tyson]: I know he's got the two older brothers who sort of paved the path before him was probably 185 00:09:53,971 --> 00:09:57,733 [Tyson]: offering a bit of education on top of whatever it was that he was learning 186 00:09:57,682 --> 00:09:57,782 [Ben]: and 187 00:09:57,773 --> 00:09:58,193 [Tyson]: himself. 188 00:09:57,843 --> 00:09:58,465 [Ben]: perfect training 189 00:09:58,253 --> 00:09:58,373 [Tyson]: But... 190 00:09:58,506 --> 00:09:59,149 [Ben]: partners too. 191 00:10:00,222 --> 00:10:01,023 [Tyson]: For sure, for 192 00:10:00,876 --> 00:10:01,057 [Ben]: Yeah. 193 00:10:01,063 --> 00:10:03,225 [Tyson]: sure. What do you mean in terms of quality of athlete? 194 00:10:03,584 --> 00:10:04,159 [Ben]: Right, right. 195 00:10:04,567 --> 00:10:08,631 [Tyson]: Yeah, it's been unbelievable. So as you were growing up in Maine, when did you 196 00:10:08,911 --> 00:10:10,853 [Tyson]: sort of start stepping into the world of distance running? 197 00:10:13,598 --> 00:10:20,820 [Ben]: So I started just running for fun. When I was quite young, my dad was in a neighborhood 198 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,761 [Ben]: and our neighborhood was training for, I think it was the 100th anniversary of the 199 00:10:24,781 --> 00:10:31,703 [Ben]: Boston Marathon. And so they started running and so I was like, oh my dad's running, 200 00:10:31,723 --> 00:10:35,044 [Ben]: that's the cool thing to do. I want to start doing the, you know, the rec program 201 00:10:35,084 --> 00:10:42,642 [Ben]: in town and doing half-mile jogs and stuff like that. And I quickly was shown that 202 00:10:42,682 --> 00:10:47,443 [Ben]: I was quite good at it and I enjoyed running faster than other people. So I just 203 00:10:47,483 --> 00:10:53,325 [Ben]: kept at it, kept at it. But when I got to high school, I also started cross-country 204 00:10:53,345 --> 00:11:01,747 [Ben]: skiing, Noric skiing. And I really, really loved Noric skiing. And so that was actually 205 00:11:01,807 --> 00:11:09,489 [Ben]: my main focus. And so when I went to college, I ran and I skied at college. And 206 00:11:09,549 --> 00:11:14,916 [Ben]: I actually thought that I was going to give up running and just go the Norrk ski path. 207 00:11:16,577 --> 00:11:23,901 [Ben]: And something brought me back to running post college and I ended up running instead. 208 00:11:24,841 --> 00:11:27,025 [Tyson]: So it was post college that you made the big move back? 209 00:11:27,454 --> 00:11:34,275 [Ben]: Yeah, yeah. So I took a year off of when I was in college. I decided what's the one 210 00:11:34,295 --> 00:11:39,937 [Ben]: thing that I wanted to do left in my running career and then be fine walking away 211 00:11:40,257 --> 00:11:46,019 [Ben]: with never running again and focus all of my energy into Nordic skiing. And it was 212 00:11:46,059 --> 00:11:49,259 [Ben]: break the four minute mile. You know, when you're in high school and college, like 213 00:11:49,299 --> 00:11:53,040 [Ben]: that's the cool barrier. And so I was like, all right, once I do that, I'm done. 214 00:11:53,721 --> 00:11:58,778 [Ben]: And so I did that and I was like, I'm done hanging up the spikes. I took a year off 215 00:11:58,818 --> 00:12:05,421 [Ben]: from college and I went out to Idaho and joined a professional ski group out there 216 00:12:05,661 --> 00:12:11,383 [Ben]: and was like, I'm going to be a skier now. But it was the first time I've ever trained 217 00:12:11,424 --> 00:12:17,226 [Ben]: at altitude and I kind of went gung-ho into the training a little bit too much. I 218 00:12:17,346 --> 00:12:23,909 [Ben]: really upped the volume and the intensity and I kind of burnt myself out. And so my ski 219 00:12:23,949 --> 00:12:28,251 [Ben]: coach at the time was saying, all right. You know, you're so far gone with fatigue and 220 00:12:28,291 --> 00:12:32,955 [Ben]: over training that, um, why don't you take, you know, a few weeks off from training 221 00:12:33,035 --> 00:12:38,378 [Ben]: and just go out for, you know, 10 to 20 minute jogs every day just to get the body 222 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,762 [Ben]: loosened up and try to help, you know, aid in recovery. And so I started doing that 223 00:12:43,122 --> 00:12:50,267 [Ben]: and I realized how much I loved running and how, um, easy running came to me. It seemed 224 00:12:50,327 --> 00:12:56,026 [Ben]: like when I was running, I didn't have to think. I just floated. Whereas when I skied, 225 00:12:56,347 --> 00:13:01,930 [Ben]: it was something that I really enjoyed doing, but it was something that I had to mentally 226 00:13:01,990 --> 00:13:08,133 [Ben]: think about constantly. It wasn't something that came naturally to me at all. And so I 227 00:13:08,173 --> 00:13:14,277 [Ben]: made the decision, well, when I got my energy levels back, I was like, well, I guess 228 00:13:14,377 --> 00:13:19,120 [Ben]: running, if I want to take one of these two sports to the furthest I can, running is 229 00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:23,597 [Ben]: the way to go. And I became a runner. Follower rider after that. 230 00:13:24,079 --> 00:13:28,581 [Tyson]: Well, it seems like, I don't know anything, to be honest, about skiing, but in terms of 231 00:13:28,621 --> 00:13:32,422 [Tyson]: cross training, I know a lot of athletes get on the elliptical when they're trying to 232 00:13:32,462 --> 00:13:35,444 [Tyson]: save a little bit of the pressure that they'd be putting on their joints with double 233 00:13:35,484 --> 00:13:39,545 [Tyson]: runs and things like that. It seems like a pretty nice sport that if you're flirting, 234 00:13:40,118 --> 00:13:40,820 [Tyson]: on the edge 235 00:13:40,613 --> 00:13:40,960 [Ben]: Oh yeah. 236 00:13:40,860 --> 00:13:43,829 [Tyson]: of two sports that they complement each other really nicely. 237 00:13:44,126 --> 00:13:48,907 [Ben]: Yeah, it's a lot like cycling where you can, there's zero impact really on the body. 238 00:13:49,867 --> 00:13:55,929 [Ben]: And you can really work the cardiovascular system really well. The one downside with Nordic 239 00:13:55,949 --> 00:14:00,431 [Ben]: skiing is you'd bulk up quite a bit. There's a lot of upper body strength that you 240 00:14:00,471 --> 00:14:08,093 [Ben]: need skiing. Actually if you look at World Cup skiers, more than 50% of the top 241 00:14:08,193 --> 00:14:14,640 [Ben]: men World Cup skiers. The majority of their power comes from the upper body from 242 00:14:14,660 --> 00:14:20,183 [Ben]: the hips up is the this so they're more arm-dominant Than leg-dominant for propelling 243 00:14:20,203 --> 00:14:25,466 [Ben]: themselves forward by like a 60 40 70 30 margin is quite large The women are a little 244 00:14:25,486 --> 00:14:32,870 [Ben]: bit closer the women are more like 55 45 between arms and legs but top level of Nordic 245 00:14:32,910 --> 00:14:39,639 [Ben]: skiing is very arm-dominant and Me as a runner, I just never got my arms are strong 246 00:14:39,679 --> 00:14:41,743 [Ben]: enough to really hang with them. 247 00:14:43,398 --> 00:14:49,043 [Tyson]: Yeah, it's so interesting. So obviously when I think of cycling as an alternative to 248 00:14:49,343 --> 00:14:52,246 [Tyson]: running, the thing that puts me off there is just the amount of time and the amount 249 00:14:52,286 --> 00:14:52,767 [Tyson]: of miles, 250 00:14:53,154 --> 00:14:53,460 [Ben]: Oh yeah. 251 00:14:53,267 --> 00:14:57,571 [Tyson]: and probably cars just flying past you. But in terms of the Nordic skiing, is 252 00:14:57,611 --> 00:15:02,296 [Tyson]: the training fairly comparable in terms of time to what it is with running? Like how 253 00:15:02,336 --> 00:15:02,977 [Tyson]: do you structure the 254 00:15:02,954 --> 00:15:03,114 [Ben]: I 255 00:15:02,997 --> 00:15:03,257 [Tyson]: weeks 256 00:15:03,154 --> 00:15:03,294 [Ben]: do 257 00:15:03,277 --> 00:15:03,417 [Tyson]: with 258 00:15:03,334 --> 00:15:03,594 [Ben]: more. 259 00:15:03,437 --> 00:15:03,857 [Tyson]: the skiing? 260 00:15:03,674 --> 00:15:12,359 [Ben]: I do more. So when I was really into it in college, you know, my OD, my over distance 261 00:15:12,439 --> 00:15:15,061 [Ben]: would be a five hour ski. And 262 00:15:14,736 --> 00:15:14,901 [Tyson]: Oh wow. 263 00:15:16,341 --> 00:15:21,624 [Ben]: a typical training session would be 90 minutes to 150 264 00:15:24,946 --> 00:15:28,949 [Ben]: minutes to like two and a half hours. And so you can do a lot more volume. Yeah, 265 00:15:29,989 --> 00:15:30,589 [Ben]: for sure. 266 00:15:30,554 --> 00:15:34,697 [Tyson]: just based on the fact that you're not putting so much pressure through the joints. 267 00:15:33,366 --> 00:15:34,866 [Ben]: You're right, exactly, exactly. 268 00:15:34,957 --> 00:15:38,280 [Tyson]: Man, that's really interesting. So you're obviously at college. Yeah, it's not 269 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,783 [Tyson]: like you're an incredibly late developer. Like at that time, to be breaking a four minute 270 00:15:41,823 --> 00:15:44,985 [Tyson]: mile at what? You would have been 21, 22, maybe even younger. 271 00:15:46,451 --> 00:15:50,616 [Ben]: It was my third year, my junior year, so probably 2021. 272 00:15:51,994 --> 00:15:55,000 [Tyson]: And what did your training look like at the time? Because it's really interesting 273 00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:55,802 [Tyson]: to hear that even... 274 00:15:55,638 --> 00:15:55,938 [Ben]: Mostly 275 00:15:55,822 --> 00:15:55,922 [Tyson]: Ha ha 276 00:15:55,978 --> 00:15:56,718 [Ben]: Nordic skiing. 277 00:15:57,265 --> 00:15:57,505 [Tyson]: ha! 278 00:15:58,338 --> 00:16:01,539 [Ben]: So how I would break up the year is that, 279 00:16:01,502 --> 00:16:01,562 [Tyson]: Ha 280 00:16:01,579 --> 00:16:01,659 [Ben]: you 281 00:16:01,663 --> 00:16:02,754 [Tyson]: ha. 282 00:16:01,679 --> 00:16:07,161 [Ben]: know, in the fall would be cross country season for running. And I'd do that fully. 283 00:16:07,201 --> 00:16:17,144 [Ben]: And then NCAAs was always the Monday before Thanksgiving. So late November. And 284 00:16:17,184 --> 00:16:25,564 [Ben]: I'd race NCAA cross, hop on a plane. and fly to Montana where I do my first ski 285 00:16:25,624 --> 00:16:30,228 [Ben]: race the day before Thanksgiving, like three or four days later. Having no time on 286 00:16:30,288 --> 00:16:34,471 [Ben]: snow, having no time, I just go right from cross-country, running to cross-country 287 00:16:34,511 --> 00:16:41,116 [Ben]: skiing, ski the whole winter, and I'd start off not being very good skier, obviously, 288 00:16:41,837 --> 00:16:45,059 [Ben]: and then start getting better and better throughout the season, more time I was skiing, 289 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,588 [Ben]: and then immediately switch at the end. to going back to running. So I like very segmented 290 00:16:52,669 --> 00:17:00,476 [Ben]: my year and focused strictly on each one. So when I ran, you know, when I'd run 291 00:17:00,516 --> 00:17:05,801 [Ben]: fast times on the track, I never ran in college, probably how fast I should have 292 00:17:05,841 --> 00:17:12,767 [Ben]: run, but it would always be, you know, within two months of first run of the year 293 00:17:13,127 --> 00:17:15,109 [Ben]: for a while from coming off of ski season. 294 00:17:15,654 --> 00:17:15,974 [Tyson]: Gee, 295 00:17:15,749 --> 00:17:15,869 [Ben]: Yeah. 296 00:17:16,014 --> 00:17:20,757 [Tyson]: so coming back off the ski season onto the track season, I know you said your arms 297 00:17:20,797 --> 00:17:23,879 [Tyson]: never really took off like a Nordic ski should have, but surely you're packing 298 00:17:23,899 --> 00:17:24,860 [Tyson]: a little bit on 299 00:17:24,830 --> 00:17:24,970 [Ben]: Oh 300 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:25,280 [Tyson]: the start 301 00:17:25,070 --> 00:17:25,390 [Ben]: yeah, 302 00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:26,881 [Tyson]: line compared to some of those other runners. 303 00:17:26,751 --> 00:17:35,155 [Ben]: yeah. So typically I remember, in cross I would typically for running I'd typically 304 00:17:35,175 --> 00:17:43,220 [Ben]: be like 165 pounds and then I'd gain 20 pounds throughout the winter to bulk up 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,723 [Ben]: and then by track I may have been able to lose 10 pounds. I may have been like high 306 00:17:48,743 --> 00:17:54,725 [Ben]: 170s and then take all summer to shed the weight back. and then just start it back 307 00:17:54,786 --> 00:17:55,348 [Ben]: over again. 308 00:17:56,482 --> 00:17:59,304 [Tyson]: have been so frustrating for your college coaches was it to see 309 00:17:58,930 --> 00:17:59,731 [Ben]: Yeah, I'm sure. 310 00:17:59,624 --> 00:18:04,229 [Tyson]: the potential that you had and the fact you run in four-minute miles at 20 and 311 00:18:04,249 --> 00:18:07,251 [Tyson]: to be leaning towards skiing. What do you think it was like you just felt like 312 00:18:07,271 --> 00:18:09,533 [Tyson]: the appeal of running at that time wasn't there? 313 00:18:10,398 --> 00:18:15,799 [Ben]: Yeah, it was always a love-hate relationship with running growing up. It was always something 314 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:21,281 [Ben]: that other people told me I was really good at. And I knew that I was good at because 315 00:18:21,381 --> 00:18:25,862 [Ben]: I was winning races, right? But it was more I was doing it because other people told 316 00:18:25,902 --> 00:18:30,023 [Ben]: me I should do it. Whereas skiing was something I did because I really enjoyed it. 317 00:18:30,623 --> 00:18:36,905 [Ben]: So skiing was for me and running was for other people. And it wasn't until I stepped 318 00:18:36,945 --> 00:18:43,948 [Ben]: back from running and said, I'm not running again. that I was able to shed that aspect 319 00:18:44,008 --> 00:18:49,276 [Ben]: of it and shed that I was no longer doing it for other people, but now I was doing it 320 00:18:49,296 --> 00:18:53,964 [Ben]: for my own goals and my own desires. And that was the only way that I was able to 321 00:18:54,244 --> 00:18:54,985 [Ben]: pick running back. 322 00:18:55,860 --> 00:19:00,865 [Tyson]: Yeah, so Maine, I've never been to Maine, but is it the one, is it a couple of 323 00:19:00,905 --> 00:19:05,489 [Tyson]: hours or outside of New York? Like you mentioned Boston was relatively close before 324 00:19:05,509 --> 00:19:05,829 [Tyson]: as well, 325 00:19:05,886 --> 00:19:06,547 [Ben]: Yeah, 326 00:19:05,909 --> 00:19:06,009 [Tyson]: so. 327 00:19:06,647 --> 00:19:10,552 [Ben]: so I grew up about two hours, I grew up in southern Maine, so it was about two hours 328 00:19:10,672 --> 00:19:11,514 [Ben]: north of Boston. 329 00:19:12,798 --> 00:19:13,644 [Tyson]: Oh, sure. Okay, 330 00:19:13,637 --> 00:19:15,079 [Ben]: Yep. 331 00:19:13,765 --> 00:19:15,498 [Tyson]: so there, yeah, cause just the introduction 332 00:19:15,099 --> 00:19:15,539 [Ben]: Most people 333 00:19:15,518 --> 00:19:15,619 [Tyson]: to. 334 00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:18,023 [Ben]: call it Canada, but you know, it's Maine. Hehehehe. 335 00:19:18,250 --> 00:19:22,238 [Tyson]: Yeah, okay. What you're trying to avoid that title or is 336 00:19:22,227 --> 00:19:22,430 [Ben]: Yeah! 337 00:19:22,278 --> 00:19:26,026 [Tyson]: it a... or is it actually a little conjecture as to where it is? 338 00:19:26,827 --> 00:19:32,117 [Ben]: No, I mean, Maine was basically surrounded by Canada. But yeah, no, we're... 339 00:19:32,790 --> 00:19:35,671 [Tyson]: Yeah, I would, I would claim, I would claim American over Canada 340 00:19:35,483 --> 00:19:35,744 [Ben]: Yeah. 341 00:19:35,711 --> 00:19:38,512 [Tyson]: as well. I'm so sorry to all our Canadian listeners. It's just a little bit of a soft 342 00:19:38,552 --> 00:19:43,854 [Tyson]: spot in my heart for the U S. So, uh, okay. So there came a point where for you, 343 00:19:44,034 --> 00:19:48,076 [Tyson]: like you got lured back into the world of running and then from there, how old were 344 00:19:48,096 --> 00:19:51,197 [Tyson]: you when you decided, okay, well, I'm, I'm back, this is going to be my focus now. 345 00:19:52,522 --> 00:20:02,806 [Ben]: So I graduated from college in 2009 and went out to the Oregon Track Club out in Eugene 346 00:20:03,666 --> 00:20:10,949 [Ben]: immediately and ran for them for a year. Realized I hated being on the west coast and 347 00:20:11,109 --> 00:20:19,953 [Ben]: it just wasn't the scenario for me and moved back to my college town, originally to 348 00:20:19,973 --> 00:20:26,114 [Ben]: train by myself. and do it my own, but luckily a little group formed out there and 349 00:20:26,795 --> 00:20:29,139 [Ben]: I've been in Hanover, New Hampshire ever since. 350 00:20:29,649 --> 00:20:32,652 [Tyson]: Gee, so what was it about the west side that you didn't enjoy? 351 00:20:34,426 --> 00:20:38,687 [Ben]: I don't know. I think I'm just a New Englander through and through. I'm a homeboy. 352 00:20:38,727 --> 00:20:43,708 [Ben]: And so I really like, you know, the Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New England area. And 353 00:20:45,229 --> 00:20:51,831 [Ben]: the West Coast was just too different for me. Eugene, Oregon was too big of a city. 354 00:20:52,811 --> 00:20:58,453 [Ben]: For example, I lived right next to the University of Oregon's football stadium. And 355 00:20:59,273 --> 00:21:04,887 [Ben]: the football stadium could hold more people than the entire city of Portland, Maine, 356 00:21:04,907 --> 00:21:11,177 [Ben]: which is the largest city in Maine. And I just couldn't deal with so many people around 357 00:21:11,237 --> 00:21:14,081 [Ben]: me. And so I had to get out of there. 358 00:21:14,830 --> 00:21:20,253 [Tyson]: Well, it blows my mind about the US college system, like here in, or university 359 00:21:20,293 --> 00:21:24,616 [Tyson]: college in Australia. I mean, we've got our sporting competitions, but mate, like 360 00:21:24,656 --> 00:21:28,619 [Tyson]: good luck trying to fill up a basketball stadium, let alone a football stadium with 361 00:21:28,803 --> 00:21:28,924 [Ben]: Uh... 362 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,903 [Tyson]: fans for college sport. It really blows my mind. I actually, I went to Eugene, my brother-in-law 363 00:21:33,923 --> 00:21:38,546 [Tyson]: lives in, in a place called Medford in Oregon. He married an American girl. So 364 00:21:38,566 --> 00:21:42,329 [Tyson]: the Americans won one of, from us. And we've been over there quite a few times 365 00:21:42,349 --> 00:21:47,321 [Tyson]: just to catch up with him. And I know what you mean. It was the old, actually it 366 00:21:47,341 --> 00:21:50,163 [Tyson]: wasn't the football stadium we saw. We went and saw Hayward Field before they had 367 00:21:50,183 --> 00:21:50,303 [Tyson]: done 368 00:21:50,195 --> 00:21:50,478 [Ben]: Oh yeah. 369 00:21:50,343 --> 00:21:50,784 [Tyson]: it all up. 370 00:21:51,207 --> 00:21:51,308 [Ben]: Yep. 371 00:21:51,344 --> 00:21:54,827 [Tyson]: And I kind of fell in love with it because obviously, as you can see here, I'm 372 00:21:54,847 --> 00:21:55,488 [Tyson]: like, I'm such 373 00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:55,551 [Ben]: Yep. 374 00:21:55,508 --> 00:21:59,531 [Tyson]: a, like anyone our age, I'm sure, or anyone in the running world. There was a little 375 00:21:59,551 --> 00:22:03,635 [Tyson]: bit of an allure of pre-fontaine back in the day. So to go there and see the sights, 376 00:22:03,715 --> 00:22:08,980 [Tyson]: I kind of fell in love with it. But obviously it's, I mean, probably the weather 377 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,603 [Tyson]: in Australia is a little more. comparable to the west coast of America than going from 378 00:22:14,623 --> 00:22:15,803 [Tyson]: the east coast of America 379 00:22:15,551 --> 00:22:15,855 [Ben]: Yeah. 380 00:22:15,823 --> 00:22:20,245 [Tyson]: to the west coast. So at least that part I had on side. But there were some good 381 00:22:20,305 --> 00:22:24,546 [Tyson]: athletes training around then. I think I've completely blanked on his name, but we 382 00:22:24,566 --> 00:22:29,468 [Tyson]: had an 800 meter runner, Lockie, something that was training in Oregon back in the day. 383 00:22:29,488 --> 00:22:34,329 [Tyson]: I think he was like a 145 man. He went to Oregon. I don't know if that rings any bells. 384 00:22:34,450 --> 00:22:38,212 [Ben]: Yeah, so Nick Simmons was there when I was there 385 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:38,505 [Tyson]: Yes. 386 00:22:38,792 --> 00:22:45,435 [Ben]: for the year. And he was the other big 800 meter runner. Christian Smith was there. 387 00:22:45,235 --> 00:22:45,397 [Tyson]: Mm-hmm. 388 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:55,427 [Ben]: He and. I think those were like the two big 1800 meter guys. 389 00:22:56,265 --> 00:22:56,525 [Tyson]: Yeah. 390 00:22:56,530 --> 00:22:57,953 [Ben]: They were there when I was there, yeah. 391 00:22:57,928 --> 00:23:00,594 [Tyson]: And was Jordan, Jordan Hussey and that 392 00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:00,650 [Ben]: She was 393 00:23:00,634 --> 00:23:00,954 [Tyson]: kinda... 394 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:01,030 [Ben]: after. 395 00:23:00,974 --> 00:23:02,037 [Tyson]: Oh, 396 00:23:01,651 --> 00:23:02,152 [Ben]: So she was, 397 00:23:02,117 --> 00:23:02,377 [Tyson]: okay. 398 00:23:02,672 --> 00:23:05,536 [Ben]: she may have been in university at the U of O at that time, 399 00:23:06,030 --> 00:23:09,212 [Tyson]: Yep. 400 00:23:06,217 --> 00:23:09,961 [Ben]: but she wasn't part of the Oregon Track Club or anything like that. 401 00:23:09,252 --> 00:23:10,293 [Tyson]: Yeah. 402 00:23:10,121 --> 00:23:10,221 [Ben]: Yep. 403 00:23:10,313 --> 00:23:13,756 [Tyson]: What was the track club like? Cause from Australia, I look at the idea of Oregon 404 00:23:13,796 --> 00:23:15,798 [Tyson]: Track Club and think, mate, that's the dream. Like 405 00:23:15,778 --> 00:23:15,980 [Ben]: Yeah. 406 00:23:15,818 --> 00:23:18,840 [Tyson]: if I was running faster, I would have, and got any offers, I would have been there 407 00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:22,643 [Tyson]: with you, but unfortunately I wasn't running a sub four minute mile and I was no 408 00:23:22,683 --> 00:23:23,864 [Tyson]: good at skiing. So I was 409 00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:25,299 [Ben]: Hehehehe 410 00:23:23,924 --> 00:23:28,628 [Tyson]: limited for options. But in terms of culture, so was that back in the day, was that 411 00:23:28,668 --> 00:23:30,069 [Tyson]: Salazar looking after you guys? 412 00:23:30,662 --> 00:23:35,786 [Ben]: No, so that was Mark Rowland. 413 00:23:36,647 --> 00:23:37,263 [Tyson]: That's right. Yep. 414 00:23:37,547 --> 00:23:42,812 [Ben]: It was like his first year or his second year of coaching was when I was there. And 415 00:23:42,872 --> 00:23:48,596 [Ben]: so Frank Gagliano was the outgoing coach and he was the one that recruited me. And then 416 00:23:48,656 --> 00:23:55,722 [Ben]: Mark Rowland was there. And I really enjoyed Mark Rowland. He was going from a program 417 00:24:00,358 --> 00:24:06,383 [Ben]: Oregon track of the time was 20 plus athletes. And so I never worked with Mark Rowland 418 00:24:06,423 --> 00:24:13,769 [Ben]: on a day-to-day basis. It was like assistance coaches that would work with me. And I don't 419 00:24:13,789 --> 00:24:18,132 [Ben]: know. We just kind of, the group that I was training with kind of felt like we were 420 00:24:18,152 --> 00:24:25,899 [Ben]: kind of tossed aside and kind of forgotten about. And so made some great friends, guys 421 00:24:25,939 --> 00:24:33,456 [Ben]: that I was training with. But it was. didn't feel like a full cohesive team. It was 422 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:42,524 [Ben]: very partial doubt teams, kind of squads that trained together. And so it wasn't the 423 00:24:42,584 --> 00:24:44,025 [Ben]: same atmosphere that I was looking for. 424 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,486 [Tyson]: Sure. And do you mean it was separated based on how coaches perceived talent at the 425 00:24:49,526 --> 00:24:52,830 [Tyson]: time? So they had a certain level of athlete that was like, okay, this athlete's 426 00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:55,353 [Tyson]: going somewhere, this athlete's maybe not there yet? 427 00:24:56,414 --> 00:25:01,678 [Ben]: Probably a bit of that and probably a bit of, I mean between that and distance, like 428 00:25:02,038 --> 00:25:09,084 [Ben]: what event you would be doing. But the focus was definitely on Lauren Fleshman who 429 00:25:09,284 --> 00:25:15,809 [Ben]: was there at the time, Sally Kipiego who was there, and Nick Simmons. Those were 430 00:25:15,829 --> 00:25:20,713 [Ben]: like the people that, you know, Mark Rowland really had focus on and everybody else 431 00:25:20,733 --> 00:25:24,755 [Ben]: kind of. was doing their own thing off the side. Ha ha 432 00:25:25,307 --> 00:25:25,887 [Tyson]: Yeah, 433 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,323 [Ben]: ha. 434 00:25:25,948 --> 00:25:30,853 [Tyson]: yeah. It's very strange that, I don't know, it's not just limited to running. I used 435 00:25:30,873 --> 00:25:35,177 [Tyson]: to experience that from time to time. Not even on purpose and not even in a negative 436 00:25:35,217 --> 00:25:37,499 [Tyson]: way, but there'd be certain groups that I would train with and I was like, oh 437 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:40,362 [Tyson]: man, I've been here for a while now and I still feel like I'm in the outskirts. 438 00:25:40,402 --> 00:25:40,783 [Tyson]: I just can't 439 00:25:40,714 --> 00:25:41,019 [Ben]: Yeah. 440 00:25:40,823 --> 00:25:44,587 [Tyson]: quite connect with this group and I could never figure out whether it was a talent 441 00:25:44,607 --> 00:25:47,854 [Tyson]: thing or whether it was just a time involved in the group and I'm sure. you know, 442 00:25:47,934 --> 00:25:50,841 [Tyson]: there was a number of things, perhaps it was just the fact that they didn't like 443 00:25:50,881 --> 00:25:51,563 [Tyson]: my personality. 444 00:25:51,874 --> 00:25:52,610 [Ben]: Hehehehe 445 00:25:52,706 --> 00:25:55,472 [Tyson]: I never wanted to look at that one. Yeah, it's 446 00:25:55,362 --> 00:25:55,502 [Ben]: But 447 00:25:55,512 --> 00:25:55,873 [Tyson]: interesting. 448 00:25:55,582 --> 00:25:59,706 [Ben]: I know that right after I left, when I left, there was quite a few people who left 449 00:26:00,266 --> 00:26:04,250 [Ben]: the program at the same time, and so it went from a group that was like 20 plus 450 00:26:04,270 --> 00:26:10,997 [Ben]: people down to 15, 10, 15, and I heard that things smoothed out a lot more when there 451 00:26:11,017 --> 00:26:14,581 [Ben]: was less people. So I think it was, one of the situations was, Roland came into a program 452 00:26:14,601 --> 00:26:19,305 [Ben]: that was much larger than he really wanted it to be. Yeah. 453 00:26:18,302 --> 00:26:23,065 [Tyson]: Sure, yeah, well that's the reason. I only ever really take on 10 athletes at a 454 00:26:23,125 --> 00:26:26,588 [Tyson]: max at a time and it's for that reason. Like obviously 455 00:26:26,144 --> 00:26:26,433 [Ben]: Yeah. 456 00:26:27,129 --> 00:26:30,451 [Tyson]: the beauty of the internet is the fact that you can coach people in all different 457 00:26:30,552 --> 00:26:35,195 [Tyson]: areas. But one of the things that I find, if I start spreading out my energy too 458 00:26:35,235 --> 00:26:38,778 [Tyson]: thin with too many athletes, that is something that definitely creeps in. You start 459 00:26:38,798 --> 00:26:39,559 [Tyson]: feeling like, oh crap, 460 00:26:39,404 --> 00:26:39,551 [Ben]: Mm-hmm. 461 00:26:39,599 --> 00:26:43,442 [Tyson]: I haven't spoken to whoever it is for a week or so now, I better get in touch. And 462 00:26:43,671 --> 00:26:44,042 [Ben]: Yeah. 463 00:26:43,762 --> 00:26:47,946 [Tyson]: yeah, I definitely find that, I sympathise with him in that department because it... It 464 00:26:47,966 --> 00:26:52,210 [Tyson]: doesn't take much for your energy just to be spread too thin. Yeah. You sound like 465 00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:55,393 [Tyson]: a kind of athlete as well, who just enjoys your own company. Like from, from what 466 00:26:55,413 --> 00:26:58,276 [Tyson]: you've said, yeah. Do you, did you enjoy getting out there and doing a lot of 467 00:26:58,296 --> 00:26:59,217 [Tyson]: the training by yourself? 468 00:27:00,246 --> 00:27:07,989 [Ben]: Yeah, I mean, I majority of my career are trained by myself. I mean, other than a 469 00:27:08,069 --> 00:27:15,592 [Ben]: period of time for one year that Sam Chalanga trained with me, I trained completely 470 00:27:15,652 --> 00:27:22,115 [Ben]: solo until the very end, most recently when I hired a training partner to move out 471 00:27:22,155 --> 00:27:30,470 [Ben]: and start training with me. So the vast majority, 95% of my career, running everything 472 00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:35,835 [Ben]: by myself. A very lucky day would be somebody would be at the track holding a stopwatch 473 00:27:35,855 --> 00:27:42,321 [Ben]: for me. That would be like a prime day. But it was mostly just me doing my thing by 474 00:27:42,361 --> 00:27:47,666 [Ben]: myself. And there's aspects that I enjoyed of that. The biggest thing is, you know, going 475 00:27:47,706 --> 00:27:54,332 [Ben]: out for an easy run. I can run exactly how my body wanted to. I could run the time 476 00:27:54,392 --> 00:27:58,628 [Ben]: of day I wanted to. I'm sorry, I could sleep in and still get my double in, but just 477 00:27:58,648 --> 00:28:04,793 [Ben]: spread them out a little bit different. And the biggest thing was just I could run 478 00:28:05,173 --> 00:28:10,178 [Ben]: as slow or as fast as I wanted to an easy day. Most of my workouts were more tempo 479 00:28:10,238 --> 00:28:16,323 [Ben]: threshold based. And those, again, are more feel than prescribed pace. And so I think 480 00:28:16,363 --> 00:28:21,847 [Ben]: that I was much better at being able to find that effort and not get pushed to go 481 00:28:21,907 --> 00:28:30,779 [Ben]: too hard or held back to go too. too slow, I could run that level very well. But 482 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:37,784 [Ben]: the times I did train with other people, it was so much easier. I could run so many 483 00:28:37,824 --> 00:28:43,109 [Ben]: more harder workouts, and those were when my best times came, was off the back of 484 00:28:43,389 --> 00:28:49,654 [Ben]: training with other people. So I don't think I ever reached the level that I could 485 00:28:49,694 --> 00:28:55,978 [Ben]: have had I trained with training partners the entire time throughout my career. But I 486 00:28:56,058 --> 00:29:00,339 [Ben]: knew after I moved out to Eugene and spent a year out in Eugene, because that's 487 00:29:00,379 --> 00:29:03,940 [Ben]: where people told me that I had to go if I wanted to be a professional athlete. I 488 00:29:03,980 --> 00:29:07,581 [Ben]: had, where do you go? You go to Eugene. Where do you, who do you join? You join the 489 00:29:07,621 --> 00:29:14,223 [Ben]: Oregon Track Club. And I realized that wasn't the path for me. And so when I did move 490 00:29:14,263 --> 00:29:21,645 [Ben]: back to the East Coast, I made a firm pact that I was going to do my training for 491 00:29:21,725 --> 00:29:28,664 [Ben]: me and what made me happy. And for me, being happy was being here and being happy 492 00:29:28,684 --> 00:29:34,226 [Ben]: with my life outside of running. As long as that is fine, then I can make the running 493 00:29:34,266 --> 00:29:34,546 [Ben]: work. 494 00:29:37,848 --> 00:29:45,992 [Ben]: I wasn't willing to compromise my life outside of the sport to try to find that extra 495 00:29:46,052 --> 00:29:53,670 [Ben]: edge. And I think... there's no way that my career would have been as long as it is 496 00:29:54,031 --> 00:29:56,253 [Ben]: has been if I went a different route. 497 00:29:56,887 --> 00:30:01,389 [Tyson]: Yeah, it's really interesting that you mentioned that back when you were younger, 498 00:30:01,449 --> 00:30:03,790 [Tyson]: you were told that if you wanted to be a professional athlete, that's where you 499 00:30:03,810 --> 00:30:07,491 [Tyson]: need to go. And I mentioned it, I was serious before when I said if I was good enough, 500 00:30:07,531 --> 00:30:08,412 [Tyson]: I would have probably 501 00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:08,683 [Ben]: Yeah. 502 00:30:08,612 --> 00:30:12,554 [Tyson]: like tried to get into Oregon. It's a very similar story here. Like I know there's 503 00:30:12,594 --> 00:30:17,396 [Tyson]: a number of other colleges around America that has a really good college system that 504 00:30:17,576 --> 00:30:22,482 [Tyson]: a number of Aussies have gone to and plenty of Americans run it. But I wonder how 505 00:30:22,522 --> 00:30:26,564 [Tyson]: much that has to do with, to go back to your original point about the internet and 506 00:30:26,584 --> 00:30:30,165 [Tyson]: just being aware of all the groups out there and especially in America. I mean, 507 00:30:30,185 --> 00:30:33,407 [Tyson]: here in Australia, we've got a number of great, like really, really good groups, 508 00:30:33,967 --> 00:30:39,149 [Tyson]: both community level, professional level, some combining both of those. But to 509 00:30:39,289 --> 00:30:42,370 [Tyson]: look at the states at the moment, and I mean, I put you in this category now with 510 00:30:42,491 --> 00:30:45,752 [Tyson]: what you've started, I'm interested to hear more about that. But I mean, from Tin 511 00:30:45,772 --> 00:30:49,153 [Tyson]: Man Elite to a number of the groups all around the country, it seems as though 512 00:30:49,882 --> 00:30:51,829 [Tyson]: I mean, Oregon's one of many options now. 513 00:30:51,850 --> 00:30:56,413 [Ben]: Yeah, it is one of many options, but where are all the options, right? They're all 514 00:30:56,433 --> 00:31:01,256 [Ben]: clustered in certain spots. And so it's still, if you're a runner in the United States 515 00:31:01,296 --> 00:31:04,798 [Ben]: and you want to go somewhere, where do you go? You have to go to Boulder, you go to 516 00:31:04,818 --> 00:31:08,481 [Ben]: Flagstaff. Those are really, or you go to Oregon, right? Those are like the three 517 00:31:08,521 --> 00:31:15,506 [Ben]: options. And so a lot of that is social media driven. A lot of that is, you know, driven 518 00:31:15,526 --> 00:31:20,109 [Ben]: because one group has some success and then it's deemed everybody has to go there 519 00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:26,017 [Ben]: to have success. I'm a firm believer that if it works for one person, doesn't necessarily 520 00:31:26,057 --> 00:31:29,740 [Ben]: mean it's going to work for you. You've got to find out what works for you. And so 521 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,804 [Ben]: that's one of the reasons why I've been trying to really start up this Northwest Athletics 522 00:31:36,164 --> 00:31:43,669 [Ben]: group where showing there is other options and you can make options and opportunities 523 00:31:43,689 --> 00:31:49,253 [Ben]: for yourself in other places. You don't have to go to these places just because... 524 00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:53,892 [Ben]: that's where people say you have to go. You should go to a place because you actually 525 00:31:53,972 --> 00:31:58,875 [Ben]: want to be there and you want to live there and you like the lifestyle there. And 526 00:31:58,935 --> 00:32:03,637 [Ben]: so for me, that's New England. I love New England. I think that there's better training 527 00:32:03,677 --> 00:32:10,781 [Ben]: here than anywhere else in the United States. And so it's a shame that people don't 528 00:32:10,821 --> 00:32:14,964 [Ben]: know much about these other training venues that are out there. And I'm sure there's 529 00:32:15,704 --> 00:32:19,962 [Ben]: many of them throughout the country that are way overlooked. that could be phenomenal 530 00:32:19,982 --> 00:32:25,085 [Ben]: training groups. They said there, but everybody just gets on this bandwagon that 531 00:32:25,125 --> 00:32:29,988 [Ben]: you have to go to Boulder, you have to go to Flagstaff. And I've always shunned that 532 00:32:30,068 --> 00:32:32,309 [Ben]: idea that you know, you can go where you want to go. 533 00:32:32,954 --> 00:32:35,840 [Tyson]: Yeah, it's true. We were laughing on here a while ago. I think I was speaking to 534 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,263 [Tyson]: him about it, Pat Tynan. 535 00:32:37,644 --> 00:32:37,749 [Ben]: Yep. 536 00:32:37,745 --> 00:32:40,431 [Tyson]: I'm gonna, I can't remember. You might know better than me. Do you know where he's 537 00:32:40,471 --> 00:32:42,455 [Tyson]: based right now? I want to say it's like North Carolina. 538 00:32:42,558 --> 00:32:48,577 [Ben]: Yeah, I think so. I think the Durham-Raleigh Triangle area there. Yeah, North Carolina. 539 00:32:48,882 --> 00:32:52,463 [Tyson]: See, I thought that was where you went if you wanted to be Michael Jordan, but apparently 540 00:32:52,366 --> 00:32:53,120 [Ben]: Hehehehe 541 00:32:52,503 --> 00:32:58,184 [Tyson]: there's a number of athletes starting to get a bit of a reputation there. And I mean, 542 00:32:58,204 --> 00:33:02,506 [Tyson]: he's packed in and moves there. He's a 2'11 man on debut, a 2'7'20 543 00:33:01,483 --> 00:33:01,730 [Ben]: Yeah. 544 00:33:02,546 --> 00:33:07,027 [Tyson]: man or whatever. I mean, it speaks volumes as to the fact that, or to emphasize 545 00:33:07,067 --> 00:33:10,928 [Tyson]: your point, that there's more than one option now. But I'm interested to hear 546 00:33:10,968 --> 00:33:16,170 [Tyson]: more about your sort of move back east, because it must have been. not humbling, but 547 00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:19,372 [Tyson]: it would have been a challenge at a younger age like that to be told, okay, you 548 00:33:19,392 --> 00:33:22,775 [Tyson]: want to be professional, go here, do this, and then getting there and being a little 549 00:33:22,815 --> 00:33:26,477 [Tyson]: disenfranchised or disconnected from, you know, the group or whatever you thought 550 00:33:26,517 --> 00:33:30,360 [Tyson]: it was that was going to be, just didn't quite live up to the expectations. Was it hard 551 00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:35,763 [Tyson]: to go back to the East coast? Had you sort of decided at that point, um, that you 552 00:33:35,783 --> 00:33:39,546 [Tyson]: were, you were happy just to train by yourself or were you thinking, Oh, get a 553 00:33:39,586 --> 00:33:43,309 [Tyson]: coach or were you sort of, I know you said a lot of your training was by yourself, 554 00:33:43,329 --> 00:33:44,529 [Tyson]: but were you self-coached as well? 555 00:33:45,422 --> 00:33:50,326 [Ben]: So when I went back, I made a decision that I was going to go back thinking that I'd 556 00:33:50,346 --> 00:33:57,252 [Ben]: just go back and train by myself. But serendipitously, there was a new track program 557 00:33:57,452 --> 00:34:01,836 [Ben]: that started in Hanover, New Hampshire, where I moved back to, or I went to college, 558 00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:08,782 [Ben]: starting up right when I left. And it was coached by Tim Breaux. And so I did that. 559 00:34:09,682 --> 00:34:10,963 [Ben]: That was phenomenal for... 560 00:34:10,694 --> 00:34:12,657 [Tyson]: Oh, that's a name I haven't heard of for a while. 561 00:34:12,745 --> 00:34:12,845 [Ben]: I 562 00:34:12,757 --> 00:34:12,977 [Tyson]: He was 563 00:34:12,885 --> 00:34:13,185 [Ben]: know. 564 00:34:12,997 --> 00:34:14,018 [Tyson]: a steeplechaser, wasn't 565 00:34:13,898 --> 00:34:14,161 [Ben]: Yeah, 566 00:34:14,058 --> 00:34:14,158 [Tyson]: he? 567 00:34:14,221 --> 00:34:15,514 [Ben]: exactly, exactly. 568 00:34:14,979 --> 00:34:15,640 [Tyson]: Dude, 569 00:34:15,595 --> 00:34:15,797 [Ben]: Yep. 570 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,443 [Tyson]: sorry to interrupt, they just rang a bell. I was like, I know that name. Yeah, 571 00:34:18,463 --> 00:34:19,024 [Tyson]: he was a wild 572 00:34:18,778 --> 00:34:19,018 [Ben]: Yeah, 573 00:34:19,064 --> 00:34:19,805 [Tyson]: man. I loved him. 574 00:34:20,219 --> 00:34:26,403 [Ben]: yeah. And so that was great. But that fizzled out very quickly. That was only around 575 00:34:26,443 --> 00:34:34,088 [Ben]: for just under two years, I want to say. And so after that, I was fully on my own. And 576 00:34:34,148 --> 00:34:40,132 [Ben]: I trained under Tim Browse still for a few years. And then started working with 577 00:34:40,372 --> 00:34:46,937 [Ben]: Mark Coogan, who was the Dartmouth coach at the time, the Dartmouth women's coach, and 578 00:34:46,957 --> 00:34:55,600 [Ben]: trained with him for a while. And then he had a conflict of interest contractually 579 00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:59,581 [Ben]: with New Balance once he left Dartmouth and was no longer able to work with me. And 580 00:34:59,641 --> 00:35:06,063 [Ben]: so I did some coaching, self-coaching myself, went back with Tim Breaux for a bit, 581 00:35:06,463 --> 00:35:12,285 [Ben]: self-coached some more, and then worked with Ray Tracy out of Providence. 582 00:35:12,806 --> 00:35:14,248 [Tyson]: Mm-hmm. 583 00:35:13,565 --> 00:35:13,645 [Ben]: Yep. 584 00:35:14,288 --> 00:35:18,954 [Tyson]: Yeah, yeah. And how much did your training vary from that point? I know your career sort 585 00:35:18,974 --> 00:35:22,579 [Tyson]: of spans quite a number of years, so I could be a little bit more specific, but 586 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:26,605 [Tyson]: when you were running your fastest times, and I hope they were around the same 587 00:35:26,645 --> 00:35:29,829 [Tyson]: time, like your 27-14 and your 13-02, like... 588 00:35:30,075 --> 00:35:33,203 [Ben]: No, those were a long time apart. Ha ha 589 00:35:33,266 --> 00:35:34,347 [Tyson]: Well, 590 00:35:33,303 --> 00:35:33,544 [Ben]: ha. 591 00:35:34,367 --> 00:35:37,451 [Tyson]: that's actually, I mean, that could be, that could actually make this conversation 592 00:35:37,491 --> 00:35:38,292 [Tyson]: more interesting. How, 593 00:35:38,578 --> 00:35:40,798 [Ben]: Yeah. 594 00:35:39,474 --> 00:35:40,856 [Tyson]: do you know the years 595 00:35:40,818 --> 00:35:40,998 [Ben]: Those 596 00:35:40,896 --> 00:35:40,976 [Tyson]: of 597 00:35:41,038 --> 00:35:41,118 [Ben]: are 598 00:35:41,056 --> 00:35:41,437 [Tyson]: difference 599 00:35:41,258 --> 00:35:41,698 [Ben]: eight years 600 00:35:41,457 --> 00:35:42,678 [Tyson]: between, 601 00:35:41,738 --> 00:35:42,479 [Ben]: apart, maybe 602 00:35:42,698 --> 00:35:43,339 [Tyson]: wow. Okay, 603 00:35:43,499 --> 00:35:43,759 [Ben]: nine, 604 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:43,640 [Tyson]: so 605 00:35:43,819 --> 00:35:43,999 [Ben]: ten 606 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:44,080 [Tyson]: what 607 00:35:44,019 --> 00:35:44,199 [Ben]: years 608 00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:44,321 [Tyson]: did 609 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:44,499 [Ben]: apart, 610 00:35:44,341 --> 00:35:44,661 [Tyson]: you run 611 00:35:44,539 --> 00:35:44,839 [Ben]: maybe. 612 00:35:44,701 --> 00:35:47,425 [Tyson]: first? Wow. 613 00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:47,060 [Ben]: So the five K first. 614 00:35:47,525 --> 00:35:47,765 [Tyson]: Okay. 615 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:54,642 [Ben]: Yep. And that I was working with Mark Kugin then. And that's when I was training 616 00:35:54,662 --> 00:36:06,065 [Ben]: with Sam Jelenga. And, yep. And then the 2714 was just a few years ago when I was 617 00:36:06,105 --> 00:36:11,600 [Ben]: working with Ray Tracy and I had training partner that I hired, Dan Kurtz, who's still 618 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,105 [Ben]: in the area running with me. 619 00:36:13,724 --> 00:36:18,847 [Tyson]: Awesome. How different was your training in between those two 620 00:36:18,745 --> 00:36:18,905 [Ben]: Quite 621 00:36:18,887 --> 00:36:19,427 [Tyson]: PBs? 622 00:36:18,925 --> 00:36:20,209 [Ben]: a bit different. Yeah. 623 00:36:20,007 --> 00:36:24,370 [Tyson]: Yeah, I don't know. I could be testing your memory going back a decade, but what did 624 00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:28,992 [Tyson]: your weekly structure look like when you ran your 1302 in terms of how did you divide 625 00:36:29,012 --> 00:36:30,673 [Tyson]: up the miles and the speed 626 00:36:30,314 --> 00:36:30,894 [Ben]: Yeah, 627 00:36:30,713 --> 00:36:31,233 [Tyson]: and things? 628 00:36:32,075 --> 00:36:42,702 [Ben]: so let's see if I can remember correctly. It was a lot of, so Kukin had me on the standard 629 00:36:43,343 --> 00:36:51,308 [Ben]: week schedule in calendar week schedule of the universities, where you typically Monday 630 00:36:51,448 --> 00:36:57,993 [Ben]: easy, Tuesday workout, Wednesday slightly longer run, Thursday easy, Friday workout, 631 00:36:58,073 --> 00:37:05,856 [Ben]: Saturday easy, Sunday long. And that was the plan under Kugen. Did a lot of mixed 632 00:37:06,056 --> 00:37:17,061 [Ben]: workout of threshold tempo work with speed, but a lot of high volume. And so I was 633 00:37:17,101 --> 00:37:22,243 [Ben]: actually looking back at the training under Kugen a little while ago and a typical 634 00:37:22,283 --> 00:37:33,625 [Ben]: workout may be five by a K in 250. then a 20 minute tempo, so a four mile tempo, and 635 00:37:33,645 --> 00:37:40,430 [Ben]: then another five by a K in like 245. So I would get pretty good volume, or I do 636 00:37:40,890 --> 00:37:45,874 [Ben]: a 20 minute tempo, a bunch of two minute hill reps, and then another 20 minute tempo. 637 00:37:46,574 --> 00:37:54,180 [Ben]: There's a lot of tempo stuff with some speed around on the sides, but most workouts 638 00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:00,644 [Ben]: would be eight, to 11 miles of volume in the workout, and then you'll warm up and 639 00:38:00,664 --> 00:38:01,124 [Ben]: cool down. 640 00:38:01,396 --> 00:38:01,637 [Tyson]: Gee. 641 00:38:03,025 --> 00:38:11,370 [Ben]: Rarely did anything especially fast, rarely did anything that was, you know, 5K 642 00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:15,912 [Ben]: race pace. Those were very few and far between. 643 00:38:16,534 --> 00:38:16,714 [Tyson]: Yeah. 644 00:38:17,193 --> 00:38:22,016 [Ben]: And so it was a different, and then long runs every weekend would be, you know, 18 to 645 00:38:22,036 --> 00:38:30,746 [Ben]: 20 miles and running six minute pace. So, not hard, hard long runs, but moving long 646 00:38:30,786 --> 00:38:38,593 [Ben]: runs. Whereas, with Ray Tracy, he spreads everything out a little bit more and it's more 647 00:38:38,613 --> 00:38:46,179 [Ben]: of like a 10-day cycle. And so, the mileage was a lot higher. I was probably running an 648 00:38:46,219 --> 00:38:53,365 [Ben]: additional 20 miles a week, rolling seven day. And the workouts were faster. 649 00:38:54,046 --> 00:38:58,430 [Tyson]: Huh. 650 00:38:54,922 --> 00:38:59,706 [Ben]: And so a workout under Tracy leading up would be, 651 00:39:02,769 --> 00:39:15,019 [Ben]: what would be one, 10 times 600 meters in 131, and then a few 300s quick afterwards. 652 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,521 [Ben]: Or he did a lot of... 653 00:39:21,879 --> 00:39:27,643 [Ben]: He liked the two by 20 minute tempos a lot and he liked a lot of mile and a half 654 00:39:27,703 --> 00:39:36,390 [Ben]: repeats. And so it was a different, it was a more grinding without question. Ray Tracy 655 00:39:36,430 --> 00:39:41,314 [Ben]: was a lot more grinding of a workout whereas Kugin was a lot of bopping around between 656 00:39:41,354 --> 00:39:45,357 [Ben]: run fast, run fairly relaxed, run fast. 657 00:39:46,969 --> 00:39:50,611 [Tyson]: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that even the earlier one, it still sounds like you were 658 00:39:50,651 --> 00:39:52,653 [Tyson]: covering quite a few miles. Like I know you said, 659 00:39:52,471 --> 00:39:52,723 [Ben]: Oh yeah. 660 00:39:53,153 --> 00:39:56,034 [Tyson]: sorry, I've got the coach's names muddled up. I can't remember which one was before and 661 00:39:56,054 --> 00:39:58,996 [Tyson]: which one was after, but the earlier one sounded like you 662 00:39:58,978 --> 00:39:59,319 [Ben]: Kugen. 663 00:39:59,016 --> 00:39:59,796 [Tyson]: were still ticking off, 664 00:39:59,760 --> 00:39:59,960 [Ben]: Yeah. 665 00:39:59,997 --> 00:40:02,458 [Tyson]: that Coogan, you're still ticking off quite a few miles. 666 00:40:02,808 --> 00:40:03,149 [Ben]: Oh yeah. 667 00:40:03,598 --> 00:40:06,840 [Tyson]: And I love the fact that you were saying you weren't doing anything too incredibly fast. 668 00:40:06,860 --> 00:40:10,270 [Tyson]: There'd be so many audience members discuss it at you. that you mentioned the second 669 00:40:10,770 --> 00:40:13,171 [Tyson]: set of five by a K were two 45s. 670 00:40:12,711 --> 00:40:14,272 [Ben]: Eh. Heh heh heh. 671 00:40:14,352 --> 00:40:17,593 [Tyson]: But I guess it's all in context of the times that you were running. But 672 00:40:17,761 --> 00:40:17,950 [Ben]: Yeah. 673 00:40:18,514 --> 00:40:23,776 [Tyson]: yeah, so on a weekly sort of rolling average, what were you doing in terms of miles 674 00:40:24,477 --> 00:40:25,417 [Tyson]: with Kugen in 675 00:40:25,398 --> 00:40:25,538 [Ben]: So 676 00:40:25,457 --> 00:40:25,937 [Tyson]: comparison? 677 00:40:25,598 --> 00:40:32,886 [Ben]: Kugen would probably be closer to 90 to 95, probably average-wise. And under Ray 678 00:40:32,926 --> 00:40:35,849 [Ben]: Tracy, it would be 115 to 120. 679 00:40:37,042 --> 00:40:41,185 [Tyson]: So what's that 860? Oh, so close to 200 kilometers, or I don't know if you know 680 00:40:41,225 --> 00:40:45,889 [Tyson]: your metric system well, but I think, is that right? 160K is 100 miles. Sorry, 100 681 00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:52,435 [Tyson]: miles is 160K, yeah. Oh, so you were, man, that's, like in terms of going back to 682 00:40:52,475 --> 00:40:55,758 [Tyson]: the time consumption element, that's where the Nordic skiers gotta come at in you, 683 00:40:55,778 --> 00:40:56,298 [Tyson]: because 684 00:40:55,838 --> 00:40:56,101 [Ben]: Yeah. 685 00:40:56,679 --> 00:41:01,163 [Tyson]: that's a huge time commitment. So in terms of doubles and things like that, what 686 00:41:01,183 --> 00:41:02,564 [Tyson]: would you be doing for your double 687 00:41:02,518 --> 00:41:02,678 [Ben]: I mean, 688 00:41:02,604 --> 00:41:04,105 [Tyson]: runs? 689 00:41:02,718 --> 00:41:03,681 [Ben]: I double all the time. 690 00:41:04,205 --> 00:41:04,345 [Tyson]: Yeah. 691 00:41:04,383 --> 00:41:08,837 [Ben]: Like a 12.5, 12 miles in the morning, five in the afternoon was a standard easy day. 692 00:41:09,338 --> 00:41:11,599 [Tyson]: Yes. 693 00:41:10,141 --> 00:41:10,281 [Ben]: Yeah. 694 00:41:11,819 --> 00:41:14,962 [Tyson]: That's unbelievable. And did you feel like your body, well obviously it was responding 695 00:41:14,982 --> 00:41:18,965 [Tyson]: well in the sense that you ran fast off that, but was that something you were able 696 00:41:18,985 --> 00:41:20,105 [Tyson]: to maintain for a long time? 697 00:41:22,250 --> 00:41:27,892 [Ben]: Um, I was with Ray for maybe five years, I want to 698 00:41:27,883 --> 00:41:28,125 [Tyson]: Gee. 699 00:41:27,912 --> 00:41:35,255 [Ben]: say. Um, but doing race training solo was very challenging. 700 00:41:35,512 --> 00:41:36,833 [Tyson]: I'm not sure if you can hear 701 00:41:37,236 --> 00:41:43,999 [Ben]: And so, uh, I was getting burnt out, um, at the end, um, doing, doing that training 702 00:41:44,179 --> 00:41:44,599 [Ben]: solo, 703 00:41:44,801 --> 00:41:46,422 [Tyson]: me. 704 00:41:44,879 --> 00:41:48,601 [Ben]: uh, doing it with other people was fine. Like when I had Dan Kurtz as a training partner, 705 00:41:49,201 --> 00:41:56,041 [Ben]: um, It was fine, but doing that work solo was very challenging. Because Kugen's 706 00:41:56,081 --> 00:42:03,805 [Ben]: workouts were so much more change of speed, mentally it's a lot easier to do that 707 00:42:05,146 --> 00:42:10,729 [Ben]: by yourself. Because even if you're tired, you can go and hop out and do a 20 minute tempo 708 00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:18,853 [Ben]: by yourself and still getting good work. And all the fast stuff was quite short in duration. 709 00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:27,564 [Ben]: Um, Ray Tracy loved the workout where you have to grind one extra lap on the track 710 00:42:27,604 --> 00:42:31,547 [Ben]: than you actually want to. And it makes you very tough and it makes you very strong, 711 00:42:31,607 --> 00:42:36,411 [Ben]: no doubt. Um, he's had great success and, and I ran well under him, but that's hard 712 00:42:36,451 --> 00:42:43,577 [Ben]: to do solo. And, and when I had training partners that helped me through majority of 713 00:42:43,857 --> 00:42:50,311 [Ben]: the workouts, um, Ray Tracy's workouts were much more manageable and fun. But not 714 00:42:50,351 --> 00:42:51,999 [Ben]: as much, completely, it's all of them. 715 00:42:52,477 --> 00:42:56,381 [Tyson]: Yeah, did your body hold up well in terms of injury? It sounds like just the fact 716 00:42:56,401 --> 00:43:01,885 [Tyson]: that you've ran so fast and been able to endure so much of this just long mileage 717 00:43:01,905 --> 00:43:05,749 [Tyson]: style training, or at least from my perspective it sounds very long miles, that 718 00:43:05,789 --> 00:43:08,892 [Tyson]: you were naturally a pretty strong guy. Did you struggle with injuries at all 719 00:43:08,952 --> 00:43:10,753 [Tyson]: or did you get away with it pretty easily? 720 00:43:11,386 --> 00:43:17,007 [Ben]: I've gotten very lucky in not having many injuries that actually take me out. But, 721 00:43:17,528 --> 00:43:22,169 [Ben]: I mean, I'm a runner so I never, I don't think I ever had a week where I wasn't in pain 722 00:43:22,209 --> 00:43:29,071 [Ben]: running. And, you know, most mornings I wouldn't be able to, doing the track workouts, 723 00:43:30,151 --> 00:43:34,312 [Ben]: I wouldn't be able to, you know, walk to the bathroom in the morning normally. I'd 724 00:43:34,352 --> 00:43:34,892 [Ben]: be hobbling 725 00:43:34,694 --> 00:43:35,700 [Tyson]: Hehehehehehe 726 00:43:34,912 --> 00:43:42,900 [Ben]: about. It'd take me a while to warm up. And it wasn't until I did my first marathon 727 00:43:42,940 --> 00:43:50,986 [Ben]: build with Ray that the paces came way down slower, right? And the mileage went up 728 00:43:51,046 --> 00:43:55,610 [Ben]: even more, but the body responded to that even more. And that could just been from 729 00:43:55,790 --> 00:44:01,714 [Ben]: age. But that's when I stopped being in so much pain all the time, is when we kind 730 00:44:01,734 --> 00:44:06,037 [Ben]: of got off the track and started doing a little bit more longer distance training. 731 00:44:06,561 --> 00:44:10,030 [Tyson]: Yeah, and what do you got your eyes on at the moment? Are you still ironing off 732 00:44:10,050 --> 00:44:10,932 [Tyson]: some good marathons? 733 00:44:11,938 --> 00:44:20,943 [Ben]: Ah, we'll see. So, currently nothing's on the schedule. I raced Boston this past spring, 734 00:44:20,963 --> 00:44:22,683 [Ben]: it went terribly. Oh 735 00:44:22,954 --> 00:44:24,238 [Tyson]: I didn't see. You don't have to tell 736 00:44:24,164 --> 00:44:26,345 [Ben]: yeah. 737 00:44:24,278 --> 00:44:25,583 [Tyson]: me, but what went wrong there? 738 00:44:26,666 --> 00:44:30,648 [Ben]: Oh, who knows? 739 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:29,205 [Tyson]: Ha ha ha. 740 00:44:30,928 --> 00:44:37,892 [Ben]: It was one of those ones where you start the start and you get about a mile in and you 741 00:44:37,932 --> 00:44:40,673 [Ben]: know right from there it's gonna be a very long 742 00:44:40,539 --> 00:44:40,686 [Tyson]: Ugh. 743 00:44:40,733 --> 00:44:47,796 [Ben]: day. It almost felt like the only way I can describe it to myself is I went in with 744 00:44:47,816 --> 00:44:56,020 [Ben]: the gas tank half full. I never felt like I... And it wasn't that I was not eating 745 00:44:56,060 --> 00:45:01,322 [Ben]: well leading in or tapered down. I did both of those, but it just didn't feel like 746 00:45:01,362 --> 00:45:06,964 [Ben]: I was fully energized right from the start and it was a very long slog. I think 747 00:45:07,004 --> 00:45:20,213 [Ben]: I ran 216, 217. But it was quite brutal and I was so burnt out that I'm just now getting 748 00:45:20,233 --> 00:45:22,753 [Ben]: back into resemblance of training. 749 00:45:23,238 --> 00:45:23,418 [Tyson]: Yeah. 750 00:45:23,454 --> 00:45:31,336 [Ben]: I've been exercising, I've been running 60 to 80 miles a week, but just now is when 751 00:45:31,376 --> 00:45:34,457 [Ben]: I'm starting to feel life back in my body. 752 00:45:36,041 --> 00:45:40,107 [Tyson]: I know you mentioned the finish time, but even though you felt so average Did you 753 00:45:40,127 --> 00:45:43,092 [Tyson]: still go out at a pace like we what did you go through half in? 754 00:45:44,078 --> 00:45:53,528 [Ben]: Oh no, I was out by then. In Boston by, what is it, seven miles? I was like, I'm full 755 00:45:53,608 --> 00:45:59,515 [Ben]: on bonked. I'm not going to make it to the finish line. Yeah, 756 00:45:59,511 --> 00:45:59,875 [Tyson]: That's it. 757 00:46:00,096 --> 00:46:03,600 [Ben]: it was a rough, rough race. Yeah. 758 00:46:05,379 --> 00:46:06,502 [Tyson]: What have you run for a marathon? 759 00:46:07,882 --> 00:46:13,709 [Ben]: I raced, that was my second marathon. I raced New York City as my debut And would 760 00:46:13,729 --> 00:46:18,195 [Ben]: we run there? I don't know, 212 I think or something 761 00:46:18,142 --> 00:46:18,222 [Tyson]: Oh, 762 00:46:18,215 --> 00:46:18,355 [Ben]: like 763 00:46:18,282 --> 00:46:18,722 [Tyson]: wow, 764 00:46:18,395 --> 00:46:18,636 [Ben]: that. 765 00:46:18,962 --> 00:46:19,322 [Tyson]: because not 766 00:46:19,276 --> 00:46:19,437 [Ben]: I was 767 00:46:19,362 --> 00:46:19,682 [Tyson]: renowned 768 00:46:19,497 --> 00:46:19,997 [Ben]: seventh 769 00:46:19,702 --> 00:46:21,463 [Tyson]: to be a super quick race either. It's quite 770 00:46:21,419 --> 00:46:21,880 [Ben]: No 771 00:46:21,663 --> 00:46:22,823 [Tyson]: twist and turn isn't it? 772 00:46:22,801 --> 00:46:23,301 [Ben]: Yeah 773 00:46:22,843 --> 00:46:26,244 [Tyson]: I remember whenever an Aussie goes over there to run, I'm like, oh, they're obviously 774 00:46:26,284 --> 00:46:28,565 [Tyson]: there for, they've been paid to be there 775 00:46:28,478 --> 00:46:28,658 [Ben]: Yeah, 776 00:46:28,625 --> 00:46:30,005 [Tyson]: or they're there for prize money because 777 00:46:30,041 --> 00:46:30,602 [Ben]: exactly. 778 00:46:30,045 --> 00:46:32,686 [Tyson]: no one's going there to break PBs are they? 779 00:46:32,525 --> 00:46:33,968 [Ben]: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. 780 00:46:35,026 --> 00:46:39,568 [Tyson]: So if you like, assume I mean that I know you said you're taking it easy and exercising 781 00:46:39,608 --> 00:46:41,948 [Tyson]: it 90 miles a week or whatever it was, but 782 00:46:41,864 --> 00:46:41,987 [Ben]: Yeah. 783 00:46:43,109 --> 00:46:46,432 [Tyson]: if you were to start targeting another marathon, what are you? Like, have you got 784 00:46:46,472 --> 00:46:50,953 [Tyson]: your eyes on next year at all in Paris? Like, are you looking to qualify? 785 00:46:52,482 --> 00:47:00,470 [Ben]: To be honest, the idea of racing the Olympics is not something that sparks anything 786 00:47:00,510 --> 00:47:00,770 [Ben]: in me. 787 00:47:01,254 --> 00:47:01,459 [Tyson]: Well. 788 00:47:01,771 --> 00:47:10,239 [Ben]: So I think a major marathon would be more interesting to me than say the Olympic 789 00:47:10,259 --> 00:47:15,604 [Ben]: marathon. So yeah, maybe redemption at Boston. 790 00:47:16,558 --> 00:47:20,301 [Tyson]: It's funny you say that though, because I often look at the world of tennis and you 791 00:47:20,321 --> 00:47:23,984 [Tyson]: look at the four majors that they have in the tennis world. Like a Wimbledon means 792 00:47:24,024 --> 00:47:27,407 [Tyson]: so much more to a tennis player than an Olympic title. And I don't know that you 793 00:47:27,427 --> 00:47:31,010 [Tyson]: can make that comparison directly with distance running. But I think, like if it's 794 00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:34,533 [Tyson]: a Berlin marathon or a London marathon, it'd be interesting to speak to a number of 795 00:47:34,553 --> 00:47:39,097 [Tyson]: athletes about, I mean, you can't really get past the childhood dream of the Olympics 796 00:47:39,137 --> 00:47:39,837 [Tyson]: for a lot of people, 797 00:47:39,774 --> 00:47:40,074 [Ben]: No, 798 00:47:39,877 --> 00:47:40,017 [Tyson]: but. 799 00:47:40,134 --> 00:47:44,837 [Ben]: but financially, a world marathon major victory is a whole lot more lucrative 800 00:47:45,575 --> 00:47:45,844 [Tyson]: the show. 801 00:47:45,738 --> 00:47:48,740 [Ben]: than an Olympic medal for the marathon. 802 00:47:49,354 --> 00:47:50,814 [Tyson]: probably true in tennis as well. I mean, 803 00:47:50,821 --> 00:47:51,021 [Ben]: Yeah. 804 00:47:50,834 --> 00:47:54,997 [Tyson]: they're not taking too much from an Olympic victory comparison to sort of a Wimbledon. 805 00:47:54,696 --> 00:47:55,179 [Ben]: Exactly. 806 00:47:55,577 --> 00:48:00,380 [Tyson]: Nah, awesome, man. And in terms of your coaching now, like I've been enjoying 807 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,161 [Tyson]: the last couple of days, having a good look at your website and seeing what you've 808 00:48:03,181 --> 00:48:03,601 [Tyson]: created 809 00:48:04,278 --> 00:48:06,164 [Ben]: Yeah. 810 00:48:04,722 --> 00:48:05,803 [Tyson]: over there in the coaching front. 811 00:48:06,224 --> 00:48:06,465 [Ben]: Oh yeah. 812 00:48:06,463 --> 00:48:09,785 [Tyson]: Man, did you want to speak to that a little bit? I'll make sure at the start of 813 00:48:09,805 --> 00:48:12,366 [Tyson]: this people hear about it and I'll have the show notes and everything linked to 814 00:48:12,426 --> 00:48:15,868 [Tyson]: it for people interested. But I mean, it'd be interesting to hear it from you what 815 00:48:15,888 --> 00:48:16,048 [Tyson]: you've 816 00:48:19,414 --> 00:48:24,098 [Ben]: Yeah, no. So we launched out this. It's a club northwards athletics. And we're just 817 00:48:24,138 --> 00:48:29,802 [Ben]: trying to showcase the upper valley is what we call it, the area that we live in. 818 00:48:29,983 --> 00:48:36,148 [Ben]: And we think it has some of the best training in all of the United States. And so 819 00:48:36,468 --> 00:48:40,912 [Ben]: in ideal world, we're going to try to get kind of like an elite training center group 820 00:48:40,972 --> 00:48:48,871 [Ben]: here, but also want to really emphasize just running in general. And so a lot of community 821 00:48:48,911 --> 00:48:53,897 [Ben]: outreach, we do a weekly group run in the area. We just launched a race series through 822 00:48:53,917 --> 00:48:54,458 [Ben]: Strava 823 00:48:54,638 --> 00:49:07,168 [Tyson]: I saw that. 824 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,845 [Ben]: in the, in the, in the area. So it's a lot of exciting and, and doing some coaching 825 00:48:59,905 --> 00:49:05,792 [Ben]: as well, which has been a lot of fun. And yeah, it's, we're trying to, trying to 826 00:49:05,812 --> 00:49:06,313 [Ben]: grow it out. 827 00:49:07,228 --> 00:49:11,751 [Tyson]: Who put your website together? It looks awesome. I'm such a fan for a nice website. 828 00:49:11,771 --> 00:49:12,232 [Tyson]: And I looked at 829 00:49:12,207 --> 00:49:12,308 [Ben]: Oh 830 00:49:12,252 --> 00:49:12,572 [Tyson]: yours, 831 00:49:12,328 --> 00:49:12,509 [Ben]: yeah? 832 00:49:12,912 --> 00:49:13,072 [Tyson]: and it 833 00:49:13,013 --> 00:49:13,154 [Ben]: Oh 834 00:49:13,113 --> 00:49:13,333 [Tyson]: looks 835 00:49:13,174 --> 00:49:13,476 [Ben]: thanks. 836 00:49:13,373 --> 00:49:16,415 [Tyson]: as though it's been done professionally. And I looked at yours and thought, okay, mine 837 00:49:16,435 --> 00:49:19,117 [Tyson]: needs to be touched up a little. 838 00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:26,541 [Ben]: No, you're being too kind. No, that's just us, the three of us on the team just chipping 839 00:49:26,581 --> 00:49:27,141 [Ben]: away at it. 840 00:49:27,899 --> 00:49:29,439 [Tyson]: You've nailed it, was it Squarespace? 841 00:49:30,102 --> 00:49:31,583 [Ben]: Yeah, it's just Squarespace. Yeah. 842 00:49:31,521 --> 00:49:34,462 [Tyson]: Wow, good job, I'm gonna have to go and do some research on the template and you 843 00:49:34,482 --> 00:49:34,983 [Tyson]: might see some. 844 00:49:35,905 --> 00:49:36,465 [Ben]: Exactly. 845 00:49:37,304 --> 00:49:40,946 [Tyson]: No, awesome man, well, hey, I won't hold you up, but mate, thanks so much for coming 846 00:49:40,986 --> 00:49:41,787 [Tyson]: on. So good to be able 847 00:49:41,741 --> 00:49:41,972 [Ben]: Yeah. 848 00:49:41,807 --> 00:49:45,469 [Tyson]: to pick your brain and hear a little bit more about the story behind the results. 849 00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:50,071 [Tyson]: It's, I mean, I've admired your runs from a distance for quite a while since back 850 00:49:50,091 --> 00:49:53,353 [Tyson]: in the coldest days. So it's nice to actually get a chance to sit down and have 851 00:49:53,373 --> 00:49:53,893 [Tyson]: a chat here. 852 00:49:54,070 --> 00:49:56,506 [Ben]: Yeah, well thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, 853 00:49:56,750 --> 00:49:57,071 [Tyson]: Awesome, 854 00:49:56,869 --> 00:49:57,211 [Ben]: a lot 855 00:49:57,091 --> 00:49:57,251 [Tyson]: man. 856 00:49:57,251 --> 00:49:57,453 [Ben]: of fun. 857 00:49:57,391 --> 00:49:59,637 [Tyson]: Hey, we'll leave it there. I'll see you later, everybody. 858 00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:00,824 [Ben]: All right, thank you. 859 00:50:01,934 --> 00:50:03,067 [Tyson]: Awesome, man, I'll cut that one.