WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

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I'm Travis Spader.

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And this is the Silvercore Podcast..

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Silvercore has been providing its
members with a skills and knowledge

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necessary to be confident and proficient
in the outdoors for over 20 years.

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And we make it easier for people to deepen
their connection to the natural world.

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If you enjoy the positive and educational
content we provide, please let others

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know by sharing, commenting, and
following so that you can join in on

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everything that Silvercore stands for.

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If you'd like to learn more
about becoming a member of the

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Silvercore Club and community,
visit our website at Silvercore.ca

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when it comes to police
officers, making arrests.

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The difference between cooperative
and uncooperative arrestees is

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profound in a world where the optics
of police use of forces under an

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increasingly focused spotlight tactics
at police use to expedite arrest

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and mitigate injury are essential.

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I'm joined by a retired police Constable
use of force expert, non firearm,

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weapons, expert, and whole slew of
other accolades who has written the

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book, comprehensive joint locking
techniques for law enforcement.

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If you're looking to add some highly
useful and innovative tools to your

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arsenal or you're seeking to street proof,
your martial arts, this book is for you.

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Welcome to the Silvercore
Podcast, Al arsenal.

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Thank you, Travis.

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It's a pleasure to be here.

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I love it.

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We're gonna be adding, adding some, uh,
tools to their arsenal with L arsenal.

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no pun intended, no pun intended.

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Uh, your book's amazing by the
way, I've been reading through it.

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It was hard to put down.

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I really like the way it's written.

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It is, uh, easy to read.

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Well, put together tons of graphics
or somebody like myself who really

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likes to kind of flip to different
pages and, uh, dive right into things.

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I pictures

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and arrows

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and the pictures and
arrows of how to move and.

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Uh, one of the things that I thought was
really neat was in the beginning of the

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book, and you're listening off some of the
people who have helped you in your journey

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and your process through police judo.

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And one of 'em was a letter of praise
from the BC civil liberties association,

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unlikely as that may be, um, uh, Michael
Vaughn, uh, she, uh, she was introduced

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to us through, uh, retired VPD inspector,
Ken frail, he's our ethics advisor.

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And, uh, he says, you
gotta meet this woman.

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And ah, I don't want you to do with
BC's civil liberties, you know,  no,

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and he goes, no, no seriously.

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And so, uh, she came out, she
was a delightful, um, lady.

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Yeah.

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She really respected what we were
doing and she did judo herself.

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Oh, really was a real hook.

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And uh, she saw what we were doing.

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and, uh, she loved it and, uh, she
actually promoted it in their newsletter

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and she goes, you know, BC civil liberties
is not all about just bashing police.

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We're just calling it like it is.

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So if all negative stuff comes across
her desk and that's what, uh, she reports

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on, but this, she heard that about this
positive thing that police judo, uh,

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what, what it's capable of doing in
terms of, uh, controlling, uh, people

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instead of beating them into submission.

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And, uh, she had a high
price, uh, for our tactics.

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I thought that was pretty neat.

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Like of all places you're gonna be, see
something that is going to be, uh, in

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support of police force from the BC civil
liberties association, which really speaks

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volumes to what it is that you and others
have been doing with the police judo.

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Uh, Give me.

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I know I've, I've got some background
I've, I've been following the police

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judo for a while, but can you just kind
of enlighten me a little bit about how

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that came about and, and what it's about

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well, it goes back to, uh, well, when
I first signed up, uh, for the VPD

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in 79, I was, I was a studying Cutta.

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And then by.

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Probably by 1986, I was a third
degree black belt in karate.

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But, uh, and I was thinking about going
in the, the, um, police academy as a use

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of force instructor thinking that, oh,
I've got like five, six years on the job.

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I know quite a bit.

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Right.

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I know nothing from then,
from what I know now.

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So I, uh, uh, I ended up
not going at that time.

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Instead I took, um, a year's leave of
absence from the police department.

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Right.

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And, uh, expo, uh, X, Y 86.

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Don't miss it for the world.

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And you did.

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Yeah, I did.

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I was a year.

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I went traveling.

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I, I told the VPD, I want to
take a year's leave of absence.

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and they said, no, uh, we don't
give a, year's leave of absence.

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We'll give you six months
to finish a degree.

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Mm.

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And I went, you know, I met with
a deputy chief at the time and

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uh, I said, well, we can't do it.

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And I says, okay, well, I'll quit.

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Right.

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He goes, are you serious?

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I said, yeah.

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And I said, well, there's he
says to me, there's no guarantee,

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well, I'll hire you back on.

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And I said, that's okay.

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Other departments are hiring.

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I first class gospel stellar
record up to that date.

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And, uh, you top of your class too.

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And he came in.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I was a, I was the, uh, chief's
choice as they called it, the,

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the top recruit in my class.

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And then I was a police
officer of the year.

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That was oh five.

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Uh  yes.

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In the last year of, of, uh, work.

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I tell people in my 27 years that's the
first and last years were really good.

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So, so it's all about appearances.

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starting and finishing strong the
middle of 25 years, quarter of a decade

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or a little bit dodgy, but, uh, I'll
leave a good impression anyways, right?

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Yeah.

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So anyways, I, I took this, I'll
leave absence and I went around the,

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the world and looked at different.

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I was looking for the ultimate
martial art for police.

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Hmm.

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And not necessary to pick up techniques
here and there, which I did do.

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But, uh, I look, I looked around
and there's a number of things

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that police academies were doing.

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They were teaching whatever
the instructor knew.

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Right.

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Cause that's what he's most
comfortable teaching mm-hmm

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and it's what he's best at.

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And then somehow they had have,
the recruits would have to try

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and make it work on the street.

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And some of these techniques that they
were teaching aren't aren't necessarily

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translatable or easily translatable,
just because if you're a TaeKwonDo

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guy and you can kick a knife outta
somebody's hand  that I wouldn't

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recommend teaching that to recruits.

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Right.

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So that was a problem.

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And then, so somebody in the,
in that gym, the marsh, the, the

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training gym should have some.

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Expertise or, um, little school
of hard, not maybe, yeah.

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Sometimes somebody, they, they should
have, uh, they should have what it

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takes to, uh, make this stuff work.

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And, and so instead of teaching
what they know, they should

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say, what do you need to know?

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Mm-hmm . Oh, I'm a, a boxer,
but geez, it looked like you

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do a little bit of wrestling.

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It looks like you do a
bit of a joint locking.

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So I sh so me as the instructor
with the aptitude in martial

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arts, I should be learning what
you, I should be teaching you.

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Mm-hmm,  not, you learn, you I'll
teach you boxing and then you try

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and figure out how that translates
into getting handcuffs on somebody.

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Right?

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So that was a, that was a, a problem.

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and of course, uh, trainers become,
or they they're very parochial.

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They just teach what
their department teaches.

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Mm-hmm  and they teach this over
here and, and there's no real or

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unified system of martial arts for,
or, um, control tactics for police.

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Right.

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So there's a number of, uh, problems
like that, that I, that I, that I saw.

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And I, I, I came back a bit disillusioned.

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I went, ah, darn.

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I was looking for something really good.

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And so I just kept, uh, so I, I got
outta karate and then I got into,

00:08:13.635 --> 00:08:20.265
um, Wu, the Chinese martial arts, uh
Shuja which it's like, uh, throwing

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techniques without any groundwork.

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Okay.

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And.

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and, uh, chink the joint locking
techniques and, and, and this and that.

00:08:27.870 --> 00:08:30.420
So I did that and I liked
the, the chink quite a bit.

00:08:31.170 --> 00:08:36.030
And then, um, it was too
wasn't wasn't direct enough.

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It was, it was a little bit airy fairy
for policing purposes and, uh, it's,

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it's a marshal it's artistry, right?

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Sure.

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So, and, uh, so I, I left, obstensibly go
study, uh, ground fighting, uh, because,

00:08:50.430 --> 00:08:52.140
uh, Shrek doesn't do any ground fighting.

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Mm.

00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:58.620
And, um, So I joined, um, judo at the
police station under, well, initially

00:08:58.620 --> 00:09:00.270
Tim Lalor and then Brian shipper.

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Right.

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Uh, took it over, um, Brian
shipper being a civilian.

00:09:04.170 --> 00:09:09.240
And, um, I, so I started judo and I
really liked it because, and I thought

00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.280
out of all the martial arts that I seen.

00:09:11.745 --> 00:09:16.245
Judo is probably the most practical,
because you say you are under arrest.

00:09:16.515 --> 00:09:18.255
What call, what falls next?

00:09:19.155 --> 00:09:21.945
You gotta lay hands on the guy,
especially if he's not being cooperative.

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Right.

00:09:22.155 --> 00:09:24.525
So, so judo does that word in karate?

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You're under arrest.

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No, I'm not.

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These are striking.

00:09:26.865 --> 00:09:27.195
Oh yeah.

00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:30.255
So I'm gonna start breaking your
kneecaps and punching, knocking

00:09:30.255 --> 00:09:32.395
you out to get you into, uh, cups.

00:09:32.465 --> 00:09:33.395
Doesn't look too good.

00:09:33.775 --> 00:09:34.595
It doesn't look good.

00:09:35.655 --> 00:09:39.285
and, and it's yeah, it's, uh, it's
a hard way to arrest somebody.

00:09:39.615 --> 00:09:44.835
So I, I went through that
whole, um, that whole process.

00:09:44.835 --> 00:09:52.125
And then I, I came out the other end being
a little bit, um, judo was at the time

00:09:52.125 --> 00:09:57.645
was a little bit more still following the
sports mode, even though we got out of the

00:09:57.885 --> 00:10:02.535
competition or the instructor, Brian took
it out of the competition mode entirely.

00:10:03.045 --> 00:10:07.125
And, uh, but it was still
classic judo being taught.

00:10:07.650 --> 00:10:09.060
Two police at a police station.

00:10:09.060 --> 00:10:12.330
So it was loosely by name,
only called police judo.

00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:17.939
But then I, I end up, um,
retiring in 2006 and I was, might

00:10:17.939 --> 00:10:19.260
my own business in Thailand.

00:10:19.260 --> 00:10:20.580
Like all good stories happened.

00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:26.460
and, um, um, Sergeant Brad faucet, uh,
phone me up and, and, uh, he, him and,

00:10:26.490 --> 00:10:31.800
uh, you know, acting Sergeant, I guess
Ken Resk were at the, the police academy

00:10:31.800 --> 00:10:36.660
in 2008 and they're having classes of
44, 48 people with the two of them.

00:10:36.810 --> 00:10:40.140
So the's much student, teacher
ratio is a bit off there.

00:10:40.140 --> 00:10:43.530
And so he got ahold of me and
said, do you want to come back and,

00:10:43.590 --> 00:10:45.660
um, be use of force instructor?

00:10:45.660 --> 00:10:50.730
And, uh, I said, I'll come back as
a contractor, meaning that when the

00:10:50.730 --> 00:10:54.480
students are in the gym, I'll show up,
but I'm, I don't wanna write reports.

00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.560
I don't wanna, uh, disciplines,
uh, recruits and all that stuff.

00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.000
I'll just come in and teach you.

00:11:00.270 --> 00:11:06.194
But under a couple of conditions,  one of
them being, um, I want to be able to help

00:11:06.194 --> 00:11:11.535
revamp the training, uh, program because
I was a field trainer before I left.

00:11:11.954 --> 00:11:17.055
And, uh, I saw some deficiencies in the
training and he, he said, fair enough.

00:11:17.084 --> 00:11:22.245
You know, don't wanna say, oh, you know,
you're contractor to shut up just right.

00:11:22.515 --> 00:11:23.535
Relegated to the corner.

00:11:23.535 --> 00:11:24.135
We're doing that.

00:11:24.345 --> 00:11:27.194
So, um, so that was,
that was a great upon.

00:11:27.194 --> 00:11:31.515
And like I say, I get to show up when,
when they're in the gym and, um, and,

00:11:31.515 --> 00:11:37.035
uh, yeah, so I, I, I agreed and I
came, uh, taught for less than two

00:11:37.035 --> 00:11:39.074
years until the 2010 Olympics came.

00:11:39.074 --> 00:11:39.165
Right.

00:11:39.464 --> 00:11:42.135
And had a glut of, uh, officers after.

00:11:43.005 --> 00:11:43.425
Yes.

00:11:43.425 --> 00:11:48.344
And they didn't even need one instructor
at the academy at the, because they had so

00:11:48.344 --> 00:11:51.135
many, uh, surplus officers at that time.

00:11:51.405 --> 00:11:51.555
Really.

00:11:51.645 --> 00:11:56.415
And then, um, so then I, I switched over
to the law enforcement studies diploma.

00:11:56.415 --> 00:12:00.074
I was asked to, uh, create three courses.

00:12:00.135 --> 00:12:02.655
Uh, these are for people that
want to go into policing.

00:12:02.805 --> 00:12:03.015
Sure.

00:12:03.015 --> 00:12:08.175
And I had a really strong, uh,
my, my entire career pretty well

00:12:08.175 --> 00:12:13.364
was on the street as a, I was in
the CFL club Constable for life.

00:12:13.454 --> 00:12:13.755
Okay.

00:12:13.755 --> 00:12:18.224
And, uh, I, I, I stuck, uh, to the
street because that was my passion.

00:12:18.645 --> 00:12:26.520
And, uh, as a result, Of all that, uh,
I made, uh, almost 2000, uh, criminal

00:12:26.520 --> 00:12:29.219
code arrests, like people for offenses.

00:12:29.459 --> 00:12:32.969
And then I probably double that
for breaking up fights and breaches

00:12:32.969 --> 00:12:34.890
of the piece and arresting drunks.

00:12:34.890 --> 00:12:36.329
And is that for your entire career?

00:12:36.390 --> 00:12:36.599
Yeah.

00:12:36.599 --> 00:12:36.839
Yeah.

00:12:36.839 --> 00:12:37.439
27.

00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:40.339
So, and, and that's, that's unheard.

00:12:40.339 --> 00:12:42.780
That's a, that's a, that's
the top one percentile easily.

00:12:42.810 --> 00:12:42.990
Yeah.

00:12:43.020 --> 00:12:43.829
For arrest.

00:12:45.359 --> 00:12:48.390
I know, I know police officers have
been on the job for 20 years and I

00:12:48.390 --> 00:12:49.890
don't think they've made 20 arrests.

00:12:49.895 --> 00:12:50.520
You know, you have to have

00:12:50.910 --> 00:12:53.490
man just a real passion for what

00:12:53.490 --> 00:12:53.819
you're doing.

00:12:54.610 --> 00:12:58.150
Well, well, yeah, and then part of
the reason for that is because half

00:12:58.150 --> 00:13:01.480
my career was spent working in the
downtown east side, where sometimes

00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:06.700
I was resting, uh, three, four
people, 5, 6, 7 people in a night.

00:13:06.730 --> 00:13:07.180
Right.

00:13:07.180 --> 00:13:10.480
I have to handcuff them to each other
because you that's, you're running out.

00:13:10.630 --> 00:13:11.110
Yeah.

00:13:12.670 --> 00:13:16.540
I remember one time, uh, my
partner, um, Toby Hinton were in,

00:13:16.540 --> 00:13:19.930
in front of the region hotel, and
we couldn't move for two hours.

00:13:20.230 --> 00:13:24.460
Like people were coming across the
street to get a, to beg, to be arrested.

00:13:24.460 --> 00:13:27.010
They were coming around the
corner, getting arrested they're,

00:13:27.010 --> 00:13:28.120
you know, left and right.

00:13:28.125 --> 00:13:31.780
And then I was expecting somebody to come
out of a window and expect to be arrested.

00:13:31.900 --> 00:13:32.620
We couldn't move.

00:13:32.620 --> 00:13:36.141
We had, 'em all sitting down there
like three, four people, and then the

00:13:36.146 --> 00:13:38.650
wagon would come in there and somebody
else would stumble around the thing.

00:13:38.650 --> 00:13:41.200
And we couldn't, you know,
it's like my goodness.

00:13:41.205 --> 00:13:43.480
It was like the black
hole of arrests, you know?

00:13:43.890 --> 00:13:45.760
Well, so either a passion.

00:13:46.475 --> 00:13:50.045
Perhaps a passion and a
combination for having a nose for,

00:13:50.324 --> 00:13:53.645
for that, you know, uh, um,
what is, what is it invention

00:13:53.645 --> 00:13:54.875
as the mother of necessity?

00:13:55.165 --> 00:13:55.386
So right.

00:13:55.715 --> 00:14:01.295
If you look at what we were offered
down there, we had lay hands on many,

00:14:01.385 --> 00:14:06.635
many, many hundred thousands of people,
uh, in, in, in the course of my duties

00:14:06.635 --> 00:14:10.265
down there and, and, and Toby Hinton
too, spent his whole entire career

00:14:10.265 --> 00:14:16.995
down there more than like 23 years, is
that people don't, uh, Deserve to have

00:14:16.995 --> 00:14:20.954
their arm broken or their job busted
because, uh, they wanna fight you.

00:14:21.105 --> 00:14:21.405
Right.

00:14:21.405 --> 00:14:25.605
A lot of times they're, they're mentally
ill, they're on drugs or they're more

00:14:25.605 --> 00:14:27.135
fighting themselves than anything.

00:14:27.135 --> 00:14:27.555
And sure.

00:14:27.584 --> 00:14:36.160
And, um, and after you Wade into this,
um,  uh, crucible of chaos and carnage

00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:42.670
and it be, it becomes less personalized
when people want to resist arrest.

00:14:42.670 --> 00:14:43.510
That's their job.

00:14:43.540 --> 00:14:47.620
Their job is to hide the drugs
and run away from the police.

00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:48.850
And our job is to catch them.

00:14:48.850 --> 00:14:49.340
So, right.

00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:50.890
It's nothing personal.

00:14:50.895 --> 00:14:54.670
I mean, they're not, they, they
didn't choose to, to, uh, try

00:14:54.670 --> 00:14:56.439
and fight with me because of me.

00:14:56.500 --> 00:14:56.680
Right.

00:14:56.829 --> 00:14:58.140
Um, could have been you or anybody.

00:14:58.140 --> 00:14:58.300
Yeah.

00:14:58.305 --> 00:14:58.510
Anybody.

00:14:58.510 --> 00:14:58.750
Yeah.

00:14:58.750 --> 00:15:03.220
So it's just, you know, so you take it
less personally and then it, uh, um,

00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:05.980
and just look at it as a, a challenge.

00:15:06.380 --> 00:15:10.780
I, I had, I have so many martial arts
skills and it was nice to be able to,

00:15:10.780 --> 00:15:12.490
oh, let's kind try this or try that.

00:15:12.520 --> 00:15:13.090
It's like a puzzle.

00:15:13.180 --> 00:15:13.540
Yeah.

00:15:13.540 --> 00:15:14.380
So it's a puzzle.

00:15:14.380 --> 00:15:18.760
It needs solving and, um,
as gently as possible.

00:15:18.760 --> 00:15:22.360
And you know, I, I, I've had
one use of force, uh, complaint

00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:24.850
leveled at me in my entire career.

00:15:25.574 --> 00:15:28.965
I actually did a search and I was
surprised for somebody with your

00:15:28.965 --> 00:15:33.135
background and your passion and everything
else that nothing shows up in there.

00:15:33.225 --> 00:15:34.155
Well,  well,

00:15:34.365 --> 00:15:37.515
if you search under, I dunno,
harm reduction or through odd

00:15:37.520 --> 00:15:43.395
squad, it was, uh, uh, Toby and
I started odd squad back in 1997.

00:15:43.395 --> 00:15:49.035
It's it's we it's, uh, we basically
try to educate youth about meaning

00:15:49.035 --> 00:15:51.435
about gangs or drugs and gangs, right?

00:15:51.870 --> 00:15:55.470
And so that was, we just had our
25th year an, uh, gala anniversary.

00:15:55.470 --> 00:15:59.910
So we're still going strong and Toby's
the workhorse behind that, uh, operation.

00:16:00.270 --> 00:16:04.310
And then, um, in 2010 we formally
started police judo, right?

00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:10.140
Uh, again, asked Toby to, you know, let's,
let's start this new martial art, um,

00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:15.785
for policing, because I, I realized that
through my travels around the world, And

00:16:15.785 --> 00:16:21.905
through my own experience and judo was
the best base martial art, but it still

00:16:21.905 --> 00:16:25.095
was steeped in rules of sport, right.

00:16:25.275 --> 00:16:27.155
The street and the street
has no rules of sport.

00:16:27.155 --> 00:16:28.955
There's no refs, there's no mats.

00:16:29.255 --> 00:16:29.825
There's no ethics.

00:16:29.825 --> 00:16:30.005
Yeah.

00:16:30.065 --> 00:16:30.875
There's no ethics.

00:16:30.875 --> 00:16:31.385
Exactly.

00:16:31.385 --> 00:16:31.565
Right.

00:16:31.565 --> 00:16:31.985
Exactly.

00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:33.515
And morality is just
thrown out the window.

00:16:33.520 --> 00:16:36.125
So you, you know, on their end, our end.

00:16:36.125 --> 00:16:36.275
Yeah.

00:16:36.335 --> 00:16:37.565
We have to stop the sure.

00:16:37.565 --> 00:16:38.285
Do tow the line.

00:16:38.285 --> 00:16:38.555
Yeah.

00:16:38.555 --> 00:16:41.705
We we're, the criminal code
applies to us and they, they

00:16:41.705 --> 00:16:42.905
don't even want to hear that word.

00:16:43.325 --> 00:16:50.405
So, um, so, so, uh, we, we, we started
police judo as a new martial art in 2010.

00:16:50.915 --> 00:16:54.065
And, uh, even though the roots
go back, uh, further, like

00:16:54.305 --> 00:16:56.795
even back to my search in 1986.

00:16:56.855 --> 00:16:57.065
Right.

00:16:57.065 --> 00:16:59.175
Um, you know, so I.

00:17:00.280 --> 00:17:03.180
Uh, that that's how police duty evolved.

00:17:03.180 --> 00:17:09.810
And it evolved because of the necessity
of laying hands on so many people and,

00:17:10.360 --> 00:17:14.970
and doing it in an ethical, uh, manner
in effective manner in practical manner.

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:15.360
So,

00:17:15.510 --> 00:17:18.900
well, you've also taught, uh, tactical
communications for that's right.

00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:20.400
Government organizations and

00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:24.000
yeah, main, mostly
with, um, parks, Canada.

00:17:24.120 --> 00:17:24.300
Right.

00:17:24.300 --> 00:17:25.230
I've been coast to coast.

00:17:25.230 --> 00:17:29.490
I went Pacific rim, national park all
the way up to Halifax and during the,

00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:34.710
mostly during the nineties, but I, I
still, uh, teach it, uh, on occasion.

00:17:34.890 --> 00:17:35.130
Yeah.

00:17:35.610 --> 00:17:39.925
And that's, that's always a, uh, The I
find really interesting because I find

00:17:39.925 --> 00:17:42.025
that part of the puzzle very fun as well.

00:17:42.055 --> 00:17:46.465
I find both parts of the puzzle, very fun,
but the puzzle of how can we deescalate

00:17:46.465 --> 00:17:48.265
through tactical communication and gain

00:17:48.265 --> 00:17:48.775
compliance?

00:17:48.995 --> 00:17:53.425
I don't even understand the concept
of deescalation really from my

00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:58.135
perspective, because I come from, uh,
position I'm an ethical officer, right.

00:17:58.475 --> 00:18:01.915
Somebody's trying to, uh, you
know, wants to fight with me.

00:18:02.065 --> 00:18:04.945
So I just don't, uh,
knuckle down on the guy.

00:18:05.055 --> 00:18:09.125
Uh, uh, I mean, uh, to me it's
just like a, well, I'm already,

00:18:09.875 --> 00:18:14.554
you know, he's he's, I, he can't,
uh, deescalation is not a verb.

00:18:14.764 --> 00:18:14.915
Mm.

00:18:14.975 --> 00:18:17.014
I can't deescalate someone.

00:18:17.345 --> 00:18:17.435
Mm.

00:18:17.764 --> 00:18:21.425
I can control the factors
that I bring into the Al the

00:18:21.429 --> 00:18:22.865
altercation or interaction.

00:18:22.955 --> 00:18:23.165
Right.

00:18:23.375 --> 00:18:29.495
But I, I, I, uh, it's almost the, I
almost feel insulted that I, I have

00:18:29.495 --> 00:18:33.635
to take, you know, or I'd be asked
to take a, a course in deescalation.

00:18:33.665 --> 00:18:35.975
I go, well, no, I don't start off high.

00:18:35.975 --> 00:18:37.475
It's like tactical communication.

00:18:37.595 --> 00:18:37.685
Right.

00:18:37.685 --> 00:18:39.304
You start off, uh, slow.

00:18:39.395 --> 00:18:39.605
Right.

00:18:39.975 --> 00:18:41.585
And, and you go in deeper and deeper.

00:18:41.824 --> 00:18:46.804
And then, uh, you get, you get to
the, the ultimate, whatever your

00:18:46.804 --> 00:18:48.245
bottom line is, you get there.

00:18:48.335 --> 00:18:48.605
Right.

00:18:48.605 --> 00:18:50.165
And that's the way I've always done it.

00:18:50.165 --> 00:18:53.495
So when people are saying, well, why you
think I'm coming in, guns are blazing.

00:18:53.585 --> 00:18:57.544
And then I have to, I have
to deescalate the situation.

00:18:58.485 --> 00:19:00.885
I can do with myself, but I
can't do with the, the person

00:19:00.885 --> 00:19:02.864
I'm dealing with necessarily.

00:19:02.864 --> 00:19:05.084
Cause if they don't wanna play
that game, you can provide

00:19:05.084 --> 00:19:05.834
them the options.

00:19:05.925 --> 00:19:06.254
Exactly.

00:19:06.254 --> 00:19:07.215
But it's their choice

00:19:07.215 --> 00:19:07.665
at the end.

00:19:07.665 --> 00:19:13.564
So, but so this deescalation
concept, maybe some people need.

00:19:14.205 --> 00:19:17.205
To know that or be reminded of
just because he's all jacked up.

00:19:17.505 --> 00:19:19.815
Doesn't mean you have to
go exactly where he is.

00:19:19.815 --> 00:19:23.235
You can, you, you know, you can
start, uh, off a little more,

00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:25.005
uh, gentler or slower or right.

00:19:25.125 --> 00:19:28.485
Or more, more tactically, uh, slowly.

00:19:28.935 --> 00:19:31.885
But I, I, I don't like, I don't like that.

00:19:32.389 --> 00:19:35.810
Uh, deescalation, it, it, it just,
it comes from an assumption that

00:19:35.810 --> 00:19:37.399
police the connotation behind.

00:19:37.405 --> 00:19:37.520
Yeah.

00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:39.409
The connotation of the police
are always gonna be heavy

00:19:39.409 --> 00:19:39.860
handed.

00:19:40.280 --> 00:19:41.570
So yeah, no, I don't like that.

00:19:41.810 --> 00:19:44.990
And you know, when I say it, I mean,
how you can deescalate the situation

00:19:44.990 --> 00:19:50.330
or the individual by perhaps providing
em those tools so that they can make

00:19:50.330 --> 00:19:53.480
the right decision before that's right
before, before it, before it gets to

00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:55.189
a point where you, you reduce those

00:19:55.209 --> 00:19:57.500
options options, which is the
basis of tactical communications.

00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:01.790
You're thinking for them, like, they'd be
thinking three or four days down the road,

00:20:01.820 --> 00:20:05.510
right after they've gotten outta jail and
they've got their, uh, court dates set.

00:20:05.510 --> 00:20:10.220
And, uh, because they're angry,
they're drunk, they're UN drugs,

00:20:10.250 --> 00:20:12.439
they're enraged or whatever.

00:20:12.620 --> 00:20:12.949
Right.

00:20:13.010 --> 00:20:15.139
Uh, at the situation is.

00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.650
Just too much for them to,
uh, handle, uh, rationally.

00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:19.190
Mm.

00:20:19.250 --> 00:20:23.270
And so that's what the essence of
tactical communication is saying,

00:20:23.270 --> 00:20:24.440
oh, you can slow down here.

00:20:24.830 --> 00:20:26.570
You know, think, think about this.

00:20:26.780 --> 00:20:29.900
This is the reason why I'm asking
you to do what you're doing.

00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:31.100
You're setting contacts.

00:20:31.100 --> 00:20:34.610
And then, then you're presenting
options saying, you can go down this

00:20:34.610 --> 00:20:37.880
road, this road, this road, and this
is what each of them looks like.

00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.030
And this is what the end of the road
looks like for that mm-hmm . And

00:20:41.030 --> 00:20:45.830
then finally confirming doesn't
does know mean no, like, or is

00:20:45.830 --> 00:20:48.320
there some conditions that, that.

00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:54.720
You know, you you'd like attached to it
now they might say, yeah, kiss my ass.

00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.790
Well, that ain't gonna
happen, but it might be.

00:20:56.790 --> 00:20:56.850
Yeah.

00:20:56.850 --> 00:20:59.940
I, before I get boot me out of
the bar, which I'm fighting to

00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:01.500
get out, I want to get my jacket.

00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:02.580
It's hanging on my seat.

00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:05.220
That's and why do you tell me that in
the first place, instead of saying,

00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:06.540
I'm not leaving, I'm not leaving.

00:21:06.540 --> 00:21:08.160
Then you get outside after a big fight.

00:21:08.430 --> 00:21:09.420
They're not thinking, right.

00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:12.149
So you say before you lay hands on
them, you say, is there anything

00:21:12.570 --> 00:21:15.780
I can do or say to help me to gain
your cooperation in this matter?

00:21:15.780 --> 00:21:16.830
I like to think there is.

00:21:16.830 --> 00:21:19.500
And, um, they go, yeah,
give 'em in my jacket.

00:21:19.590 --> 00:21:20.430
Well, duh.

00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:21.330
Yeah.

00:21:21.330 --> 00:21:21.780
Okay.

00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:23.370
That's that's doable, right?

00:21:23.429 --> 00:21:25.530
Or I'm gonna drink my last half of a beer.

00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:26.580
You can do that.

00:21:26.730 --> 00:21:27.000
Sure.

00:21:27.090 --> 00:21:27.270
Whatever.

00:21:27.270 --> 00:21:30.120
But a lot of guys slapped the beer
out of the guy's hand, the fights on

00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:31.889
because, because they didn't listen.

00:21:31.919 --> 00:21:32.159
Yeah.

00:21:32.310 --> 00:21:33.629
He, yeah, he didn't listen.

00:21:33.629 --> 00:21:37.590
He didn't go right now and having
half the beer is him saying basically

00:21:37.594 --> 00:21:39.179
screw you, which you're allowed to do.

00:21:39.179 --> 00:21:39.990
That's yeah, yeah.

00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:40.800
Which it's a game.

00:21:40.919 --> 00:21:41.129
Yeah.

00:21:41.129 --> 00:21:43.230
So is it worth getting into a fight?

00:21:43.290 --> 00:21:47.310
Cuz the guy wants to show his friends and
I'm drinking half my beer before I leave.

00:21:49.169 --> 00:21:52.919
that's say what you want, but do, as
I say so bye-bye, you know, and then.

00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:57.080
You're you're gone and you're
the hero and, uh, problem solve.

00:21:57.080 --> 00:22:04.460
But, uh, but anyways, um, getting back
to the, the essence of, um, using force,

00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:09.410
I mean, we've never been under more of a
microscope than now with, uh, black lives

00:22:09.410 --> 00:22:14.300
matter and all these, uh, people wanting
to defund the police, looking for any,

00:22:14.360 --> 00:22:23.870
any reason to, uh, smear the police and,
um, hitting people in essence looks bad.

00:22:23.870 --> 00:22:28.610
There's a couple of things that police do
to avoid one, hitting people looks bad.

00:22:28.610 --> 00:22:30.080
So we avoid, we avoid that.

00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:34.580
We use joint locking techniques
and also holding people.

00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:39.960
Is highly ineffectual, like holding,
grabbing them to typical by the collar.

00:22:40.020 --> 00:22:40.860
I've got a collar.

00:22:40.860 --> 00:22:44.880
That's the old, you know, police,
uh, old collar, the perp  yeah, yeah.

00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.630
Collar the perp.

00:22:45.630 --> 00:22:51.960
That was, uh, you know, and some police
literally did that and there's no control.

00:22:52.110 --> 00:22:56.160
So the difference between holding and
controlling is immense mm-hmm , it's like

00:22:56.250 --> 00:23:00.330
the difference between sport techniques
and martial art and street techniques.

00:23:00.410 --> 00:23:05.850
Mm-hmm  is immense, the, the mentality,
the different, and, and one of them

00:23:05.850 --> 00:23:11.820
being, um, police, all police shoot
also avoids going to the ground,

00:23:11.850 --> 00:23:13.890
which you smart sister techniques.

00:23:14.825 --> 00:23:20.045
Police like flocking to these, uh,
you know, Brazil jujitsu courses.

00:23:20.045 --> 00:23:23.525
And, uh, it's flawed to
me in my mind, right?

00:23:23.525 --> 00:23:27.185
From the very outset because you, the
ground is not the police officer's friend.

00:23:27.185 --> 00:23:28.235
You don't wanna be there.

00:23:28.445 --> 00:23:31.745
Well, now you might be taken to the
ground, but about, but you know, even

00:23:31.745 --> 00:23:36.275
if you do you and police, should we do
a ground fighting, but we ground fight

00:23:36.280 --> 00:23:38.975
with the ultimate purpose of getting up.

00:23:39.005 --> 00:23:39.335
Right.

00:23:39.395 --> 00:23:41.015
Not to submit when you not to be

00:23:41.015 --> 00:23:41.765
on the ground and get

00:23:41.765 --> 00:23:42.975
kicked in the head by all everything.

00:23:43.405 --> 00:23:43.695
Yeah.

00:23:43.695 --> 00:23:43.855
Yeah.

00:23:43.855 --> 00:23:45.485
Your head looks like a soccer ball, right.

00:23:45.485 --> 00:23:46.745
Six inches off the ground.

00:23:47.105 --> 00:23:54.845
So, so there's, um, a bunch of, uh,
things that we've, I improved in

00:23:54.845 --> 00:23:59.585
control tactics through, um, through
police judo and this, this book here

00:23:59.585 --> 00:24:06.105
that has just come out here, um, um,
Comprehensive joint locking techniques

00:24:06.105 --> 00:24:14.205
for law enforcement, um, is just, uh,
one part of a book that I was writing.

00:24:14.205 --> 00:24:15.085
I started about.

00:24:15.425 --> 00:24:20.655
Oh, Uh, probably over 10 years
ago, the book would be this thick.

00:24:20.715 --> 00:24:20.804
Well,

00:24:20.804 --> 00:24:23.475
I saw in the book you're taught
you're referencing future books.

00:24:23.504 --> 00:24:23.655
Yeah.

00:24:23.685 --> 00:24:24.705
That you're gonna dedicate the next

00:24:24.705 --> 00:24:24.975
10 years.

00:24:24.975 --> 00:24:27.435
And I realize after 10 years,
you know, writing, I went,

00:24:27.735 --> 00:24:29.054
this book would be too thick.

00:24:29.054 --> 00:24:31.935
So I just took out what is most sale?

00:24:31.995 --> 00:24:36.405
What's the, what's the most, uh, important
stuff that police need to do right now.

00:24:36.514 --> 00:24:40.635
So, so I extracted this, the joint
locking aspects out of police judo,

00:24:41.054 --> 00:24:42.764
and I say, okay, this is one book.

00:24:42.764 --> 00:24:44.084
There'll be a book on ground fighting.

00:24:44.145 --> 00:24:45.794
There'll be book on punching and kicking.

00:24:45.794 --> 00:24:46.094
Sure.

00:24:46.155 --> 00:24:49.784
Because there's there's times and places
where you have to do those things.

00:24:49.790 --> 00:24:52.274
There'll be a book on
handcuffing and searching.

00:24:52.274 --> 00:24:55.725
There'll be a book on, you
know, uh, various aspects of, of

00:24:55.725 --> 00:24:58.514
police judo as it is, uh, now.

00:24:58.784 --> 00:25:03.344
And, um, but this is the first,
the first of that series.

00:25:03.735 --> 00:25:10.905
So I, I realize that in police
judo, um, it's all, it's about

00:25:10.905 --> 00:25:13.304
controlling somebody and controlling.

00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:19.409
by the difference between
controlling and holding is the

00:25:19.409 --> 00:25:21.000
presence or absence of pain.

00:25:21.419 --> 00:25:21.810
Mm.

00:25:22.050 --> 00:25:28.649
So if it's, um, you know, um, um, pain
compliance technique, that's, that's,

00:25:28.649 --> 00:25:30.990
that's, um, that's controlling somebody.

00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:31.020
Okay.

00:25:31.080 --> 00:25:34.530
So you, if you grab somebody by the
shoulder, by the caller, well, there's

00:25:34.530 --> 00:25:40.110
no pain associated with that and the
person can fight back mm-hmm . Um, and

00:25:40.110 --> 00:25:45.689
for the veers out there, if you have to
grab somebody say with one hand, there's

00:25:45.695 --> 00:25:49.350
only one place to do that, to be able
to, even though it's holding, you can

00:25:49.350 --> 00:25:55.290
still, uh, um, divert the force that, uh,
your opponent wants to use against you.

00:25:55.290 --> 00:25:59.129
And that's just grab just a, uh, behind
the elbow, just above the elbow mm-hmm

00:25:59.580 --> 00:26:03.959
, but, and standing in this blind spot, you
stand there or even grab both hands on.

00:26:04.815 --> 00:26:08.175
If the person's really strong and
move, if he tries to move to turn

00:26:08.175 --> 00:26:12.075
into it, you move, you stay in that
blind spot and you hold onto that arm.

00:26:12.585 --> 00:26:15.225
And if he tries to punch you with
the other arm, you just thrust

00:26:15.225 --> 00:26:17.355
the elbow out towards that.

00:26:17.385 --> 00:26:19.455
Or if he tries to kick you,
you drive the elbow down.

00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:22.215
Or if he tries to spin around
and back fist, you, you drive the

00:26:22.215 --> 00:26:26.025
elbow, uh, towards the direction
of the incoming force and it

00:26:26.025 --> 00:26:28.475
neutralizes the, uh, the force mm.

00:26:29.535 --> 00:26:32.445
That other, that that's the
only hold I would recommend.

00:26:32.445 --> 00:26:32.835
Right?

00:26:32.895 --> 00:26:36.345
The rest of them, you gotta put
a little pain on it or be able to

00:26:36.345 --> 00:26:37.935
put pain on it in a real Jiffy.

00:26:37.935 --> 00:26:41.745
So you can get somebody into a
tech, uh, a joint locking technique

00:26:41.745 --> 00:26:43.215
without applying the pain.

00:26:43.245 --> 00:26:43.395
Right.

00:26:43.395 --> 00:26:44.075
But you ready to go?

00:26:44.285 --> 00:26:44.635
Right.

00:26:44.655 --> 00:26:46.755
So if he starts resisting all of a.

00:26:47.520 --> 00:26:49.260
Then you just, you amp it up.

00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:53.640
So you're just outside, just at the
start of the person's range of motion.

00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.000
Then you can crank it up till you
get to the, uh, you know, towards

00:26:57.005 --> 00:26:58.530
the end of the range of motion.

00:26:58.530 --> 00:27:00.270
That's where the pain, uh, begins.

00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:04.230
Do you ever find any run into
people who are highly pain tolerant?

00:27:04.230 --> 00:27:06.660
Whether just because drugs, crystal

00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:12.030
meth, people are mentally ill, even, um,
um, goal oriented people, same people

00:27:12.030 --> 00:27:13.590
that pepper spray doesn't work on.

00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:14.160
Right?

00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:15.330
Same validate.

00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:20.100
You want to work on those three categories
of people, but it generally it's the one

00:27:20.100 --> 00:27:25.020
that fails on pepper spray works on best
on silver police officers after it bounces

00:27:25.020 --> 00:27:26.820
off the forehead and your partner gets it.

00:27:27.870 --> 00:27:28.320
that's right.

00:27:28.350 --> 00:27:32.130
He's in a world of pain, but other guy's
just blinking and thinking I've cooked

00:27:32.130 --> 00:27:33.510
with shit harder than this mm-hmm.

00:27:33.510 --> 00:27:39.210
But, uh, but, uh, yeah, so,
and, and, um, was talking about

00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:40.410
use of force and handcuffing.

00:27:41.324 --> 00:27:45.284
they still teach, uh, this, uh, pressure
point control tactics method of right.

00:27:45.290 --> 00:27:47.834
Bending from the waist, put your arm
behind your back and all this stuff.

00:27:47.834 --> 00:27:50.655
They teach that as, um,
a method of handcuffing.

00:27:50.955 --> 00:27:51.195
Right.

00:27:51.199 --> 00:27:53.324
And it's totally, um,

00:27:53.415 --> 00:27:55.185
it's kind of the gospel
out there for some time.

00:27:55.185 --> 00:27:55.514
Wasn't it?

00:27:55.514 --> 00:27:55.695
Yeah.

00:27:55.699 --> 00:27:56.564
Well still is.

00:27:57.225 --> 00:27:59.175
And then, and then,
well, what about the guy?

00:27:59.179 --> 00:28:04.304
That's got two fingers up and bleeding
from the forehead and no shirt on yeah.

00:28:04.310 --> 00:28:07.365
Is on crystal meth and saying,
screw you, what about that?

00:28:07.395 --> 00:28:08.264
How does that work?

00:28:08.294 --> 00:28:09.554
It, doesn't not very well.

00:28:09.554 --> 00:28:12.314
You need the, you need these
kind of techniques either.

00:28:12.314 --> 00:28:16.034
You you're getting the person into a
joint lock, causing some pain, or if

00:28:16.034 --> 00:28:21.014
there's no, if the lights are on and
no one's home, then, um, basically

00:28:21.014 --> 00:28:23.324
you're using the arm as a tether, right?

00:28:23.324 --> 00:28:29.925
To take him down into a, an inferior, uh,
position he's face down, uh, you know, uh,

00:28:30.615 --> 00:28:36.060
uh, You don't want to give 'em a dirt nap
right away, but you're in a position to

00:28:36.060 --> 00:28:42.210
do that if, if it's required and, um, and
that's, that's the, that's the way to go.

00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:51.360
I mean, um, so yeah, so, so handcuffing
is, uh, Is a real, it's a perishable

00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:55.860
skill and it's a real art form and there's
some very novel techniques in here.

00:28:55.860 --> 00:28:59.850
I'm just about to enroll, um,
online course called HC cuff.

00:28:59.855 --> 00:29:03.000
The hands saw on saw that control
saw using functional force.

00:29:03.030 --> 00:29:05.940
And it's, it's brilliant
if I don't say so myself.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:06.390
Yes.

00:29:06.570 --> 00:29:10.980
Um, because it's very practical and
it's probably the, the most advancement

00:29:11.010 --> 00:29:13.110
in handcuffing in the last 50 years.

00:29:13.230 --> 00:29:13.530
Really.

00:29:13.590 --> 00:29:14.070
Um, yeah.

00:29:14.070 --> 00:29:16.920
You get talk, instructors are
talking about how you interlock

00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:18.630
your fingers, the front or all.

00:29:19.470 --> 00:29:22.080
just, just superficial crap.

00:29:22.170 --> 00:29:22.380
Yeah.

00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:26.310
Whereas, you know, it was, uh, whereas
we got, um, uh, technique called

00:29:26.670 --> 00:29:31.050
the, um, chain link lock or cufflink
lock where you put the handcuff on

00:29:31.050 --> 00:29:35.010
somebody and then you use the ch
prying down of the chain on, over yeah.

00:29:35.070 --> 00:29:35.370
On.

00:29:35.370 --> 00:29:39.480
So you're using the joint lock to, to
retain, uh, your control over somebody.

00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:41.880
And you can still have one
hand for you to shake to hand.

00:29:42.390 --> 00:29:46.830
Um, so things like that are,
that are really, really, um,

00:29:47.555 --> 00:29:48.815
I've never been taught before.

00:29:48.925 --> 00:29:49.925
Well, I haven't seen it.

00:29:49.955 --> 00:29:50.855
No, I made it up.

00:29:51.055 --> 00:29:51.775
I mean, I mean, there you go.

00:29:51.775 --> 00:29:55.175
That's why I call it chink, you
know, sort of a joint locking chin.

00:29:55.475 --> 00:29:57.725
Um, I call it chain chain.

00:29:57.785 --> 00:30:01.445
Nah,  and I realize that, you know,
I'm going, oh, you can get, you

00:30:01.450 --> 00:30:02.585
can get a lot of purchase on that.

00:30:02.645 --> 00:30:02.945
Yeah.

00:30:02.995 --> 00:30:11.045
So, so, so the handcuffing, you,
even though it's, uh, a required

00:30:11.045 --> 00:30:13.855
or, uh, necessary skill Hmm.

00:30:13.895 --> 00:30:16.655
Police still don't practice
it or, and the techniques are

00:30:16.660 --> 00:30:21.185
given are, are, um, useless.

00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:23.615
Like if a person's bending over
their waist, turning your feet

00:30:23.615 --> 00:30:25.115
out, bending forward, thumbs up.

00:30:25.235 --> 00:30:27.335
If they're doing all that stuff,
just throw 'em the handcuffs.

00:30:27.335 --> 00:30:29.254
Hey, you mind putting
these on behind your back?

00:30:29.795 --> 00:30:30.545
yeah, sure.

00:30:30.845 --> 00:30:31.135
Yeah.

00:30:31.139 --> 00:30:31.325
Yeah.

00:30:31.385 --> 00:30:33.815
What the guy, what the guy,
the crystal meth guy, what?

00:30:33.815 --> 00:30:36.035
That doesn't get you any closer
to handcuffing him there.

00:30:36.395 --> 00:30:38.225
And then police, when they see.

00:30:38.699 --> 00:30:42.480
Um, it's going to be a
potentially violent situation.

00:30:42.810 --> 00:30:43.110
Yeah.

00:30:43.679 --> 00:30:48.540
They get, they're confused between like
the, the person might have a weapon.

00:30:48.540 --> 00:30:52.500
You pull your gun out at the low
ready now you're head of the game.

00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:52.590
Right.

00:30:52.590 --> 00:30:53.459
Mm-hmm  that makes sense.

00:30:53.459 --> 00:30:57.629
So if he all sudden he reaches in
boom, you just up off the ground.

00:30:57.659 --> 00:30:58.020
Yeah.

00:30:58.409 --> 00:31:01.179
And, uh, you can, um, double tap the game.

00:31:01.929 --> 00:31:05.530
People, uh, police think
that, oh, this is Harry.

00:31:05.709 --> 00:31:09.610
So I'm gonna get my handcuffs out
in preparation, kind of like the

00:31:09.610 --> 00:31:13.000
low ready, but it's not, you've
just handcuffed yourself because

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:17.020
you're a better martial artist or,
um, police technician than I am.

00:31:17.050 --> 00:31:21.699
If you can have your handcuffs in one hand
and get that guy under control with your,

00:31:22.030 --> 00:31:26.530
your free hand one free hand, then you're
better than I am because I need both

00:31:26.530 --> 00:31:30.250
hands to manipulate the person, to get
him on the ground, get him into position

00:31:30.250 --> 00:31:32.800
where he can't resist you any further.

00:31:33.370 --> 00:31:38.199
Then I can put the handcuff on, but they,
so they're, they're almost in panic mode.

00:31:38.379 --> 00:31:41.620
They go, oh my God, this is gonna,
I I'm ahead of the game here.

00:31:41.620 --> 00:31:44.290
I got my handcuffs in my
hand and it, it does reverse.

00:31:44.439 --> 00:31:46.750
And then of course, when they get 'em
under control, they're looking around for

00:31:46.750 --> 00:31:48.340
their handcuffs, cuz they had to let go.

00:31:48.459 --> 00:31:51.580
Of course, because they need both
hands to lay hands on somebody

00:31:51.580 --> 00:31:53.740
who's being violent or so.

00:31:54.750 --> 00:32:03.300
So whenever, um, and this, if, if you see,
um, you know, arrest gone badly, right.

00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:06.540
The person ends up being shot.

00:32:06.630 --> 00:32:06.990
Sure.

00:32:07.020 --> 00:32:07.410
Right.

00:32:07.470 --> 00:32:09.780
And then you go, oh, okay.

00:32:09.870 --> 00:32:12.390
Then you, you play the
frame back a little bit.

00:32:12.390 --> 00:32:13.380
Why did he shoot him?

00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:20.034
Ah, The bad guy's got the Baton,
the officer's Baton is about to hit

00:32:20.040 --> 00:32:21.804
him in the head and he shoots him.

00:32:22.135 --> 00:32:22.465
Sure.

00:32:22.495 --> 00:32:22.824
Fair.

00:32:23.064 --> 00:32:27.504
That does, does he have a weapon
that could injure kill you?

00:32:27.504 --> 00:32:30.324
Does he, you know, did you tell
him to drop the Baton is, you

00:32:30.330 --> 00:32:31.885
know, did he fail to do that?

00:32:31.885 --> 00:32:32.064
Yeah.

00:32:32.064 --> 00:32:35.905
So, you know, it's, it's green light,
you know, check, check, check, boom.

00:32:36.235 --> 00:32:41.605
And, but then that's the final
frame analysis, but he hold on,

00:32:41.605 --> 00:32:43.014
he's got the officers at Baton.

00:32:43.014 --> 00:32:43.945
How did that happen?

00:32:44.004 --> 00:32:44.215
Right.

00:32:44.215 --> 00:32:49.284
So you rail, you roll that, uh, the,
the, the tape back a little further.

00:32:49.465 --> 00:32:49.645
Oh.

00:32:49.645 --> 00:32:52.824
And the officers, you know,
hitting him in effectually.

00:32:52.945 --> 00:32:53.165
Mm.

00:32:53.784 --> 00:32:55.465
And the guy just being, what is this?

00:32:55.465 --> 00:32:57.355
The guy's being ferous at the best.

00:32:57.715 --> 00:32:59.514
And he just strips the Baton.

00:33:00.090 --> 00:33:02.130
Because the officer
doesn't know how to use it.

00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:05.010
Doesn't know how to retain
it and then, but, okay.

00:33:05.010 --> 00:33:07.050
But why is he hitting him?

00:33:07.530 --> 00:33:08.970
Why did the Baton come out?

00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:14.040
So you roll the tape back and there's
the officer trying to, he's holding onto

00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:19.350
the guy rather than controlling him using
some pain and doing it rather in effect.

00:33:20.560 --> 00:33:25.230
So he's losing the guy, just busts out,
cuz the guy's not under, under control.

00:33:25.230 --> 00:33:26.730
He's just being held in effectually.

00:33:26.850 --> 00:33:27.150
Right.

00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:31.830
And then the officer starts to panic and
he pulls out his Baton and then you roll

00:33:31.830 --> 00:33:36.900
that back and maybe you get into TCOM
maybe you think, oh, the guy's being, he's

00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:44.145
getting into a fight with him because he's
being, um, Maybe he is coming in too hard.

00:33:44.145 --> 00:33:45.435
He didn't use his T com.

00:33:45.435 --> 00:33:48.735
He didn't try and, you
know, go from the bottom up.

00:33:48.735 --> 00:33:55.905
And, um, and he in senses the guy into, to
the point where he begging, he begged the

00:33:55.905 --> 00:33:59.535
guy ends up begging for, to be arrested
because of what the officer has said.

00:33:59.535 --> 00:34:03.045
Maybe could talked, talk them down a
little bit or got 'em to cooperate or

00:34:03.045 --> 00:34:04.365
whatever like that, but doesn't happen.

00:34:04.605 --> 00:34:04.905
You see?

00:34:04.905 --> 00:34:11.655
So there's a series of failures and
guaranteed every, every one of these uses

00:34:11.655 --> 00:34:15.195
of force where the perpetrators gets shot.

00:34:15.825 --> 00:34:20.835
If you rule that, take back, you'll
see a whole series of mistakes

00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:23.445
done, uh, tactically by the officer.

00:34:23.595 --> 00:34:23.715
And

00:34:23.715 --> 00:34:27.195
it's always easy to look after the
fact and say, oh, should have done,

00:34:27.195 --> 00:34:28.155
should have done, should have done.

00:34:28.155 --> 00:34:31.034
And I guess a goal here, particularly
with the publications that

00:34:31.040 --> 00:34:32.534
you're putting out is to ingrain.

00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.029
The scenarios and those skills.

00:34:36.540 --> 00:34:40.199
So a person can more readily come
to that in the heat of the moment.

00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:40.529
Right.

00:34:40.529 --> 00:34:44.040
And the officers really can't be blamed
and they're, you're gonna see more

00:34:44.040 --> 00:34:48.239
officers suing, uh, counter suing when
they get done for assault saying if,

00:34:48.330 --> 00:34:53.489
uh, I I'm counter suing my department
for failure to train mm-hmm  because

00:34:53.489 --> 00:34:59.190
you, they get 60 to 70 hours in, in
BC, 60 to 70 hours of, uh, tactical

00:34:59.190 --> 00:35:00.930
training in the police academy.

00:35:01.509 --> 00:35:01.810
That's nice.

00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:04.450
And, uh, hairdressers get like 300, right.

00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:06.670
Uh, foot CFL football players.

00:35:06.670 --> 00:35:09.580
I'm sure they get more than, uh,
a couple hundred before they go

00:35:09.820 --> 00:35:11.320
into the, the big game there.

00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.029
And it's 60 hours.

00:35:13.299 --> 00:35:15.790
Yeah, that guy with a
bleeding from the forehead.

00:35:16.120 --> 00:35:17.830
No shirt on, on crystal meth.

00:35:17.830 --> 00:35:18.490
There you go.

00:35:18.490 --> 00:35:19.740
There's 60 hours of training.

00:35:20.125 --> 00:35:21.325
Go and deal with that

00:35:21.325 --> 00:35:21.745
guy.

00:35:21.805 --> 00:35:24.025
Well, then there's a fear
factor cuz the officers go in,

00:35:24.025 --> 00:35:25.225
they may not have been into a

00:35:25.225 --> 00:35:25.945
physical altercation.

00:35:26.165 --> 00:35:26.325
Right?

00:35:26.330 --> 00:35:27.925
Everybody, everything looks like a nail.

00:35:27.955 --> 00:35:31.945
When you, when you got no skills and
they only, they give you a hammer or a

00:35:31.945 --> 00:35:34.765
couple of hammers on your, on your belt,
that's all you're bringing to fight.

00:35:35.045 --> 00:35:35.845
There's nail is, is a nail.

00:35:35.935 --> 00:35:36.205
Yeah.

00:35:36.265 --> 00:35:39.565
You're only tool only fight you're
bringing to it is the tools on your

00:35:39.565 --> 00:35:43.735
belt and you get that's where you get
this what's called gadget reliance.

00:35:43.735 --> 00:35:48.595
If people, you know, rely on the
taser and OC and those things fail,

00:35:48.715 --> 00:35:53.125
I mean the battery's not charged or
the, the taser barbs, uh, don't make

00:35:53.125 --> 00:35:59.095
proper contact or the pepper spray
is you got the kind of person that,

00:35:59.095 --> 00:36:00.595
uh, just can blink through that.

00:36:00.595 --> 00:36:01.135
Right.

00:36:01.135 --> 00:36:05.695
And uh, so those things fail, but
I find that your hands on skills,

00:36:05.695 --> 00:36:10.225
if, if they're you're print trained
properly, um, are, are solid state.

00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:11.185
They generally don't fail.

00:36:11.275 --> 00:36:13.165
They may not work on everybody sometimes.

00:36:13.170 --> 00:36:13.345
Yeah.

00:36:13.345 --> 00:36:17.035
You'll have to break away and,
and uh, punch, kick, shoot.

00:36:17.654 --> 00:36:22.845
You know, uh, you know, there's no
perfect, um, you know, set of tools that

00:36:22.845 --> 00:36:26.535
you can give somebody and it's guaranteed
to work on everybody, but police judo

00:36:26.535 --> 00:36:28.725
will work on the vast majority of people.

00:36:29.234 --> 00:36:29.674
I, I

00:36:29.834 --> 00:36:33.944
remember years ago, this one guy,
he had a, um, got into a, a fight

00:36:34.095 --> 00:36:37.725
and he was in martial arts and he
thought, okay, here's my chance.

00:36:37.725 --> 00:36:39.285
I'm gonna practice some
of the stuff I know.

00:36:39.285 --> 00:36:39.555
Right.

00:36:39.555 --> 00:36:41.564
And he was using judo chops.

00:36:41.564 --> 00:36:43.455
So judo, chop, judo, chop to the neck.

00:36:43.455 --> 00:36:47.714
And he's like, I he's like, it
surprised me how ineffective those

00:36:47.720 --> 00:36:48.915
were in the scheme of things.

00:36:48.915 --> 00:36:51.734
And I just started resorting
to haymaker essentially.

00:36:52.154 --> 00:36:52.814
And.

00:36:53.490 --> 00:36:57.690
I'm wondering if in your progress as
you're going through things, were there

00:36:57.690 --> 00:37:00.870
things that were commonly taught that
you later looked at and said, man,

00:37:00.870 --> 00:37:01.950
those don't work at all.

00:37:01.955 --> 00:37:02.520
Oh gosh.

00:37:03.270 --> 00:37:05.879
and I look back to some of
the older training manuals.

00:37:05.879 --> 00:37:12.750
I, how did they survive that did, did
the, uh, the level of, uh, techniques

00:37:12.750 --> 00:37:15.839
are kind of techniques they're
teaching are horrible, even in, even

00:37:15.839 --> 00:37:18.180
in the army, just, just horrible.

00:37:18.180 --> 00:37:20.250
They're they're difficult,
they're ineffective.

00:37:20.520 --> 00:37:23.850
And they haven't, they haven't,
uh, sort of, uh, gotten

00:37:23.850 --> 00:37:25.170
around to figuring that out.

00:37:25.859 --> 00:37:31.140
But, um, yeah, there's even to this day,
they're, they're, they're teaching things

00:37:31.140 --> 00:37:36.600
that are actually 30, 40 years old that
are, they're not that, not that practical.

00:37:36.600 --> 00:37:37.890
So this is a police.

00:37:37.890 --> 00:37:44.129
Judo is a bit of, um, a breath of, uh,
fresh air in terms of, uh, techniques.

00:37:44.129 --> 00:37:50.524
I, if the, to be in listed in
our, a list of techniques, You

00:37:50.529 --> 00:37:52.214
gotta have a couple of factors.

00:37:52.214 --> 00:37:55.814
One is, uh, you know, it's gotta
be effective and practical.

00:37:55.814 --> 00:37:56.895
It's gotta be ethical.

00:37:56.895 --> 00:38:00.915
It's gotta be, um, the, the
person has to have a, an, uh,

00:38:01.004 --> 00:38:02.805
inability to, to attack you.

00:38:03.285 --> 00:38:03.404
Mm.

00:38:03.435 --> 00:38:05.745
So, or be attacked by other people.

00:38:06.015 --> 00:38:11.984
Like, so that's why going to the
ground is we do do some of that

00:38:11.984 --> 00:38:15.375
and you can go to the ground if you
have your I've done it a few times.

00:38:15.464 --> 00:38:15.584
Sure.

00:38:15.584 --> 00:38:17.924
My partner watching me just get bored.

00:38:17.924 --> 00:38:20.504
I guess I take somebody
down, try something new.

00:38:20.535 --> 00:38:20.685
Yeah.

00:38:20.685 --> 00:38:21.464
Try something new.

00:38:21.464 --> 00:38:22.935
Just go to the ground
with 'em just for fun.

00:38:23.325 --> 00:38:29.730
Um,  but, uh, invariably the ground
like is, like I say, it's not,

00:38:29.759 --> 00:38:31.410
there's not the officer's friend.

00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:31.830
Oh.

00:38:31.919 --> 00:38:37.470
And so you wanna try and avoid that
and, uh, like, like a ground fight,

00:38:37.799 --> 00:38:43.080
uh, uh, to get up as soon as possible
and possibly to disengage or reengage

00:38:43.080 --> 00:38:45.810
them in a more positive, uh, way.

00:38:45.810 --> 00:38:50.370
So, so there's, there's been a number
of, uh, techniques being taught over

00:38:50.370 --> 00:38:52.830
the years by different police academies.

00:38:53.009 --> 00:38:56.460
And that still go on to, I just
met an RCMP officer in Berny.

00:38:57.060 --> 00:38:58.649
Um, he's close to retirement.

00:38:58.980 --> 00:39:02.549
He said he just did a two
years stint at depo and.

00:39:03.460 --> 00:39:04.000
Got out.

00:39:04.069 --> 00:39:04.720
And I said, why?

00:39:04.720 --> 00:39:10.330
Because I was teaching them things
that I know, uh, wouldn't work.

00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:10.960
Right.

00:39:11.250 --> 00:39:13.870
So bending from the waist and all
that stuff, mm-hmm , you know,

00:39:14.270 --> 00:39:17.350
I was, I was, I was, uh, uh,
trained as an instructor in that.

00:39:17.950 --> 00:39:24.430
And, uh, I, I never used it because
doesn't work well, it works on totally

00:39:24.430 --> 00:39:29.049
compliant people, but that's, that's not
what this handcuffed skills should apply

00:39:29.049 --> 00:39:31.060
to people that don't wanna get arrested.

00:39:31.060 --> 00:39:35.740
Those that's, that's the, that's
their, that's the necessity of, of,

00:39:35.799 --> 00:39:40.000
uh, of control in getting the cuffs
on difficult people, not the people

00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:41.350
that are put 'em on themselves.

00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:42.250
Mm-hmm , that's, it's nothing.

00:39:42.250 --> 00:39:46.089
So anyways, he was disillusioned
by what he was, uh, told to teach.

00:39:46.089 --> 00:39:49.299
And, um, so he left mm-hmm  and
I said, well, good for you.

00:39:49.305 --> 00:39:51.879
But you know, that that's that's today.

00:39:52.089 --> 00:39:52.899
That's going on.

00:39:53.170 --> 00:39:53.500
Right.

00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:53.890
You know?

00:39:53.890 --> 00:39:58.210
And, uh, so it's not, uh, you know,
40 years ago, but it's 40 years ago.

00:39:58.899 --> 00:40:05.069
Um, Know tactics and, and you can't
blame the officers because if they

00:40:05.069 --> 00:40:08.730
haven't been, they, they have no, they
don't know anything about police judo.

00:40:08.970 --> 00:40:10.170
How are they gonna pull that?

00:40:11.330 --> 00:40:17.610
You pull that outta their ass, you know,
they, so it's just like, um, a police

00:40:17.850 --> 00:40:19.319
police were shooting mental people.

00:40:19.350 --> 00:40:19.380
Mm.

00:40:20.310 --> 00:40:21.210
A couple decades ago.

00:40:21.270 --> 00:40:21.569
Right.

00:40:22.799 --> 00:40:27.930
So, um, I was actually looking, I was
a non firearm weapons, uh, expert for

00:40:27.935 --> 00:40:32.160
18 years and act, I was actually close
to bringing in the taser into Canada

00:40:32.160 --> 00:40:34.529
and Darren Lauer actually did it.

00:40:35.060 --> 00:40:38.970
very, but, but because of BPD at
the time, weren't interested in

00:40:38.970 --> 00:40:42.930
it, even though I demonstrated Brad
and I faucet and I demonstrated

00:40:42.930 --> 00:40:44.880
at the, uh, for the ERT members.

00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:45.150
Yeah.

00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:49.290
Uh, just extra training, another
tool we're not interested.

00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.569
So Darren Lauer picked
it up, brought it in.

00:40:51.779 --> 00:40:52.020
Yeah.

00:40:52.290 --> 00:40:57.630
And for dealing with mental
people, it helps MHA.

00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:58.440
And so.

00:41:00.225 --> 00:41:04.125
so the first inquiry that comes up
after you shoot a mental person,

00:41:04.154 --> 00:41:06.615
the question will be, could
you have done something else?

00:41:07.185 --> 00:41:11.174
And then the, the lawyer will say,
well, didn't, isn't there a thing called

00:41:11.174 --> 00:41:13.754
the taser that, uh, Victoria is using.

00:41:14.995 --> 00:41:15.420
right.

00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:16.770
So then you're liable.

00:41:16.770 --> 00:41:22.710
So every once one, um, police department,
uh, adopts it, say in Canada, everyone

00:41:22.715 --> 00:41:26.160
else has to follow suit a default, and we
could have been that leader, but anyways,

00:41:26.160 --> 00:41:28.560
Victoria  end up stealing good for them.

00:41:28.740 --> 00:41:36.540
But, um, but having said that you
can't, you know, uh, they're gonna have,

00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:40.890
there's gonna be some problems when,
when ju police ju becomes more recognized

00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:42.990
the same, question's gonna pop up.

00:41:43.020 --> 00:41:44.700
Well that, why did you
punch 'em kick them?

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:45.180
Yeah.

00:41:45.180 --> 00:41:45.810
Him and all stuff.

00:41:45.810 --> 00:41:47.160
Could you have done something else?

00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:47.760
No.

00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:48.310
Well, isn't.

00:41:48.830 --> 00:41:51.830
Police judo, you know,
it's gonna be like that.

00:41:51.830 --> 00:41:54.320
And it's like, aren't
there better techniques.

00:41:54.410 --> 00:41:59.030
Aren't there more, you know,
advanced or more modern techniques

00:41:59.030 --> 00:42:00.470
available that you could have done.

00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:04.100
And that's the kind of questions that
are gonna be asked in the future.

00:42:04.100 --> 00:42:07.820
And, uh, so you know, a
police department should.

00:42:08.870 --> 00:42:12.860
Pick this, this kind of training up
because it's very practical, effective,

00:42:13.190 --> 00:42:16.970
and, uh, effective and tactical and
ethical and all that other stuff.

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.720
Mm-hmm but they should also just pick it
up because it's the right thing to do.

00:42:20.720 --> 00:42:23.300
And, and the tools are
stronger, like right than.

00:42:24.775 --> 00:42:28.285
Then, you know, trying to, you know, knee
striking somebody in the thigh when they

00:42:28.285 --> 00:42:31.194
re offer resistance, striking looks bad.

00:42:31.285 --> 00:42:31.404
Yeah.

00:42:31.404 --> 00:42:34.645
It's optically poor and
breaking the machine is a poor

00:42:34.645 --> 00:42:36.444
way of generating compliance.

00:42:36.475 --> 00:42:36.685
Right?

00:42:37.225 --> 00:42:42.174
Because now, you know, we
get into a fight like that.

00:42:42.295 --> 00:42:45.174
It's it's who, who can destroy who first?

00:42:45.234 --> 00:42:45.685
Well, you

00:42:45.685 --> 00:42:47.694
can also turn on the
whole survival instinct.

00:42:47.694 --> 00:42:49.255
They're like, holy
Crow, this really hurts.

00:42:49.255 --> 00:42:50.185
I'm in a hell of a lot of pain.

00:42:50.190 --> 00:42:51.384
You've gone too far.

00:42:51.775 --> 00:42:53.365
If you're not enough problem too far.

00:42:53.365 --> 00:42:54.654
And now you're in the
fight that you didn't.

00:42:54.915 --> 00:42:57.565
I mean, joint locking can cause
pain too, but it's something

00:42:57.565 --> 00:42:59.214
you can dial up or dial down.

00:42:59.214 --> 00:43:03.535
Whereas once the strike is out,
it's, whatever it is, what it is.

00:43:03.535 --> 00:43:07.285
So you can't, you know, saying, oops,
I hate you too hard there story.

00:43:07.464 --> 00:43:11.575
Let me take 50% of that pain back or here
I'll fix your rib for you or something.

00:43:11.964 --> 00:43:18.175
But, uh, yeah, so there's, there's
um, some, um, Changes that have to

00:43:18.175 --> 00:43:25.645
be made in policing in terms of use
of force and police judo is, or is,

00:43:25.650 --> 00:43:32.605
is we're on the cusp of creating this
new, um, um, method of dealing people.

00:43:32.605 --> 00:43:35.455
Now it draws from a, a number of
martial arts that draws from our,

00:43:35.665 --> 00:43:38.245
a number of, uh, police control.

00:43:38.995 --> 00:43:41.305
Uh, I used to say arresting
control tactics, right?

00:43:41.305 --> 00:43:42.985
I flipped it around
purposefully in my book.

00:43:42.985 --> 00:43:44.425
It's controlling arrest tactics.

00:43:44.455 --> 00:43:44.485
Mm.

00:43:44.935 --> 00:43:46.285
You gotta control you first.

00:43:46.285 --> 00:43:47.605
Then the handcuffs control that's right.

00:43:47.845 --> 00:43:51.505
So not arrest you're under arrest
and then try and control you.

00:43:52.105 --> 00:43:55.285
No, like you're under arrest
and they go, no, I'm not.

00:43:55.285 --> 00:43:55.885
And he runs away.

00:43:56.485 --> 00:43:57.625
so you better grab him.

00:43:57.685 --> 00:44:00.195
You better control him first and
saying you're under arrest mm-hmm

00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:01.075
and I don't have to chase you.

00:44:01.795 --> 00:44:07.555
well, I, I like how the, uh, the book,
uh, is conscious of Hicks law, of course,

00:44:07.560 --> 00:44:11.815
where number of options you have, your
reaction time will decrease cuz your

00:44:11.815 --> 00:44:15.595
mind's going for all, all the different
scenarios of what I could pull from me.

00:44:16.544 --> 00:44:19.725
And it'll concentrate on some,
some basics and variations on those

00:44:19.725 --> 00:44:21.375
basics and other variations, right?

00:44:21.495 --> 00:44:25.095
So there's some, some, uh,
techniques and concepts in here.

00:44:25.245 --> 00:44:31.544
I like teaching by concept rather than,
you know, uh, I was in, uh, in 1986,

00:44:31.544 --> 00:44:35.564
I went to, I think it was a Sydney
police department and there's a fifth

00:44:35.564 --> 00:44:37.544
degree black belt in he keto there.

00:44:37.754 --> 00:44:38.044
Okay.

00:44:38.384 --> 00:44:39.435
And he was the instructor.

00:44:39.435 --> 00:44:40.274
He was a civilian.

00:44:40.575 --> 00:44:40.875
Sure.

00:44:40.875 --> 00:44:44.805
Which is by my estimation is wrong.

00:44:45.134 --> 00:44:48.615
He should not be teaching a
civilian should not be teaching,

00:44:49.125 --> 00:44:51.015
uh, control and arrest tactics.

00:44:52.095 --> 00:44:52.545
Anyways.

00:44:52.965 --> 00:44:54.555
So I, I was just goofing around.

00:44:54.615 --> 00:44:56.415
We was, was talking about
techniques in general.

00:44:56.415 --> 00:44:59.085
I did this thing where you interlock
your hands behind your head.

00:44:59.085 --> 00:45:01.215
It's, it's not a, a
technique you do anymore.

00:45:01.215 --> 00:45:02.654
And you squeeze the fingers together.

00:45:02.835 --> 00:45:05.205
And then the, the guy's
hands are locked in there.

00:45:05.355 --> 00:45:05.625
Hmm.

00:45:05.895 --> 00:45:09.015
And I, and he says, he
gets one of his students.

00:45:09.015 --> 00:45:09.795
I says, do it to him.

00:45:09.945 --> 00:45:11.805
So I did it and the guy couldn't get away.

00:45:11.805 --> 00:45:14.865
And he goes, and he was telling
me just before that, he says,

00:45:14.865 --> 00:45:16.095
there's a thing in ha keto.

00:45:16.365 --> 00:45:18.615
There's 10,000 techniques in ha keto.

00:45:18.645 --> 00:45:21.945
And I, the time I was thinking,
that's a dumb way to look at it.

00:45:22.134 --> 00:45:22.355
Mm.

00:45:22.455 --> 00:45:25.035
Uh, 10,000 technique.

00:45:25.305 --> 00:45:28.695
So anyway, he does a thing and he did,
he said he didn't sing that before.

00:45:29.415 --> 00:45:34.424
And I said, there's a thing in ha keto,
there's 10,001 techniques in ATO , but

00:45:34.424 --> 00:45:36.165
that's a technique driven thing.

00:45:36.165 --> 00:45:44.715
And, and the students are confused, um,
uh, by the sheer number of variations.

00:45:44.720 --> 00:45:47.295
But, but if you look at.

00:45:48.030 --> 00:45:49.170
Uh, joint locking.

00:45:49.230 --> 00:45:51.630
There's only like four things you can do.

00:45:51.690 --> 00:45:56.610
You got four fingers, all four things
you can do, uh, uh, uh, you can hyper,

00:45:56.670 --> 00:45:58.890
uh, extend it, hyper contract it.

00:45:59.130 --> 00:46:00.210
You can twist it mm.

00:46:00.330 --> 00:46:02.220
Or do a combination of those things.

00:46:02.220 --> 00:46:02.310
Right.

00:46:03.990 --> 00:46:04.380
That's it.

00:46:04.950 --> 00:46:08.880
So it doesn't matter if you're
doing a finger bar, an arm bar, a

00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.160
leg bar, a back bend or whatever.

00:46:11.220 --> 00:46:12.330
That's the same principles.

00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:16.980
You know, you got your fingers, three
segmented, your arms, three segmented.

00:46:17.020 --> 00:46:20.190
Your, your legs are three
segmented your even your body.

00:46:20.190 --> 00:46:24.390
If you can, uh, call your legs one
segment your torso one and your neck.

00:46:24.780 --> 00:46:24.930
Sure.

00:46:24.930 --> 00:46:25.920
It's all three segments.

00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:29.040
You can, hyperextended it hyper
contract, it twisted, or a

00:46:29.045 --> 00:46:30.270
combination of those things.

00:46:31.425 --> 00:46:32.475
So simple.

00:46:32.475 --> 00:46:36.555
So, so now you say, okay, this finger
bar is a variation of the arm bar.

00:46:36.675 --> 00:46:37.395
Oh, I get it.

00:46:37.395 --> 00:46:41.985
So now this is number, this
technique number, you know, 108.

00:46:41.985 --> 00:46:46.365
This is technique 109 for
that thing is technique one.

00:46:46.395 --> 00:46:49.395
Yeah, no, it's just all of
that one principle, so, right.

00:46:49.725 --> 00:46:51.375
It's easier to remember.

00:46:51.405 --> 00:46:56.265
And then you, um, you can in
sort of invent things as you go,

00:46:56.265 --> 00:47:00.945
because you're just looking for
the, the essential principle behind

00:47:01.725 --> 00:47:03.286
the kind of control you want to.

00:47:03.810 --> 00:47:04.350
Generate.

00:47:04.350 --> 00:47:08.760
Now, if you've walked through these,
these technique is helpful, but at

00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:13.110
least you don't have to RO memorize
each one as if they're separate

00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:14.760
mm-hmm , you're missing the point.

00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:18.840
You the, uh, and it's the
commonality I've been studying

00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:20.850
martial arts for over 50 years.

00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:21.150
Yeah.

00:47:21.540 --> 00:47:25.410
And I used to say, uh, oh, like
different styles of cut out there.

00:47:25.410 --> 00:47:28.260
There's scores of them,
but they're all the same.

00:47:28.770 --> 00:47:28.800
Mm.

00:47:29.100 --> 00:47:32.010
At the beginning to a beginner and say,
oh no, we are do our block this way.

00:47:32.010 --> 00:47:33.270
And we do the open hand.

00:47:33.270 --> 00:47:36.630
And, but it's all the
same, all the same stuff.

00:47:36.630 --> 00:47:40.260
The, the principle, the techniques,
they're just dressed up a little

00:47:40.260 --> 00:47:44.070
different, you know, sugar plum Fu
punches with one knuckle this way.

00:47:44.070 --> 00:47:47.940
And yeah, somebody else punches this
way and a vertical fist or whatever, but

00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:50.140
it's just, it's all a punch mm-hmm  it's.

00:47:50.140 --> 00:47:52.890
So it doesn't need, uh,
designation as a new.

00:47:53.910 --> 00:47:55.260
Style of martial art.

00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:59.460
It's really, I mean, it's just all the
same, whereas judo, it's just judo.

00:47:59.850 --> 00:48:00.200
Right?

00:48:00.720 --> 00:48:01.320
You see there.

00:48:01.530 --> 00:48:03.780
So there's somebody could do there.

00:48:03.780 --> 00:48:08.040
There are many different ways of
doing, say an outer reap, take

00:48:08.045 --> 00:48:09.780
the back leg and falling down.

00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:13.470
There's many ways of doing that, but
rather than saying, oh, on our style

00:48:13.470 --> 00:48:15.810
of judo, we do the auto reap this way.

00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:18.150
No, they, they, they say bullshit.

00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:19.740
At least the judo guys got it, right?

00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:21.090
They say, no, it's all the same.

00:48:21.420 --> 00:48:25.620
But, uh, police judo is a new
martial art because the, the

00:48:25.620 --> 00:48:27.810
philosophy is, is totally different.

00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:30.600
And judo better not be
using this on the street.

00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:32.700
And police judo is saying you
better, you better be this

00:48:32.700 --> 00:48:34.260
on the street, uh, correctly.

00:48:34.530 --> 00:48:34.980
Yes.

00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:36.210
In the course of your duties.

00:48:36.555 --> 00:48:36.735
Yeah.

00:48:36.915 --> 00:48:41.205
And, uh, judo is the, you pin the
guy, you get him on the ground.

00:48:41.415 --> 00:48:41.445
Mm.

00:48:41.445 --> 00:48:42.345
Which you don't want to be.

00:48:42.375 --> 00:48:45.615
And his back's on the ground in policing.

00:48:45.615 --> 00:48:48.765
You want, no, you want him face
down and you want to be standing

00:48:48.765 --> 00:48:50.025
above him or kneeling on him.

00:48:50.055 --> 00:48:50.385
Right.

00:48:50.415 --> 00:48:54.575
You know, so everything, uh, everything's
different about police judo and the end

00:48:54.885 --> 00:48:57.135
end game is to put handcuffs on somebody.

00:48:57.135 --> 00:48:58.905
It's probably the only
martial art like that.

00:48:59.085 --> 00:48:59.415
Mm.

00:48:59.475 --> 00:49:04.215
To actually the end game is not the
double tap on the shoulder, whatever

00:49:04.215 --> 00:49:10.155
it's to get him under control and
on the ground and in handcuffs.

00:49:10.185 --> 00:49:18.645
So anyways, the, um, getting back to this,
um, a keto, uh, so he's, he's teaching

00:49:18.645 --> 00:49:23.355
in the police academy has no never been
in probably in a real fight in his life.

00:49:23.415 --> 00:49:27.855
And yet he's teaching this
theoretical stuff and he's teaching

00:49:27.860 --> 00:49:30.045
it from look how much I know.

00:49:30.135 --> 00:49:32.355
Ah, and then they somehow.

00:49:32.910 --> 00:49:37.560
You know that stuff, the, the officer
has to distill well, yeah, he taught

00:49:37.560 --> 00:49:39.270
us that, but it's not very practical.

00:49:39.569 --> 00:49:40.650
Does he know that?

00:49:40.650 --> 00:49:44.040
Mm-hmm,  probably not mm-hmm  but
it's still it's part of the

00:49:44.040 --> 00:49:45.359
curriculum cuz he's teaching it.

00:49:45.390 --> 00:49:51.629
So he, he get into, into,
um, into problems like that.

00:49:51.690 --> 00:49:56.879
Being the training is instructor
centric rather than, um, being

00:49:57.060 --> 00:50:01.200
situationally centric, like
what is needed on the street.

00:50:01.205 --> 00:50:06.299
Mm-hmm  not what the instructor knows,
but what is actually needed and that's,

00:50:06.750 --> 00:50:11.400
and, and we've done some work, uh, with,
uh, again, Sergeant Toby Henton, he

00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:16.230
went, uh, uh, into, uh, force options
training before he retired and he was

00:50:16.230 --> 00:50:19.440
doing the data mining and saying, well,
okay, what, what's going on the street?

00:50:19.620 --> 00:50:21.000
How are officers being injured?

00:50:21.150 --> 00:50:24.240
How are, uh, what kind
of techniques are being.

00:50:25.095 --> 00:50:26.475
Thrown at the officers.

00:50:26.505 --> 00:50:29.205
And, uh, you know, and if
something's not working like neck

00:50:29.205 --> 00:50:30.884
restraint, why isn't it working?

00:50:31.455 --> 00:50:37.575
So these kinds of, uh, things, and
so the techniques, um, uh, being.

00:50:38.444 --> 00:50:42.825
Um, used on the street, uh, by
the offenders, for example, can

00:50:42.825 --> 00:50:44.595
help drive the, the training in.

00:50:44.595 --> 00:50:48.794
So if there's a lot of officer being
taken down by the, you know, the,

00:50:49.515 --> 00:50:53.504
the popular area of MMA and everybody
thinks they're a big MMA star, right?

00:50:53.555 --> 00:50:59.234
The, the, the downtown east side or
whatever, the gas, town's a big octagon.

00:50:59.475 --> 00:50:59.654
Yeah.

00:50:59.654 --> 00:51:01.095
And, and they just want
to go out and do that.

00:51:01.095 --> 00:51:05.205
So maybe that's something you should
train, uh, train for how to, how to,

00:51:05.205 --> 00:51:09.765
uh, avoid being scooped, um, by the
legs or, uh, tackled or something.

00:51:10.154 --> 00:51:14.205
So, um, but that's in, that's here.

00:51:14.294 --> 00:51:17.805
And some other part of the country
it'd be something different.

00:51:17.984 --> 00:51:21.825
The states had more likely, geez
guys reaching into his jacket.

00:51:21.855 --> 00:51:22.095
Right.

00:51:22.185 --> 00:51:25.365
You'd be a bit, little bit worried that
there's not a gun on the end of that hand.

00:51:25.395 --> 00:51:26.475
So we're in Canada.

00:51:26.475 --> 00:51:29.444
We don't have to worry about that
much more knives and things like that.

00:51:29.450 --> 00:51:34.814
But, um, so your training have
to reflect the problems that the

00:51:34.814 --> 00:51:36.734
officers encounter on the street.

00:51:38.325 --> 00:51:46.065
and, um, and handcuffing is an
essential skill and it's, it's covered

00:51:46.065 --> 00:51:50.505
in my view, just, um, peripherally,
almost like just incidentally.

00:51:50.510 --> 00:51:54.795
So, you know, you, you, you should
be handcuffing everybody all the

00:51:54.795 --> 00:51:57.855
time in training, so you have,
uh, some proficiency and they

00:51:57.855 --> 00:51:59.955
just decide, well, they get to the
point where they're handcuffing and

00:51:59.960 --> 00:52:01.785
they've skipped that to save time.

00:52:01.785 --> 00:52:01.815
Mm.

00:52:01.875 --> 00:52:08.130
And, um, and yet, You know, they'll
teach, I don't know, like knife defense,

00:52:08.160 --> 00:52:12.960
just to tick that box saying yeah, 18
years ago we taught him knife defense.

00:52:12.965 --> 00:52:13.170
Yeah.

00:52:13.410 --> 00:52:16.350
It was four hours of knife
defense and they tick that box.

00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:18.360
What about handcuffing somebody?

00:52:18.450 --> 00:52:21.300
Why is this do the final frame analysis?

00:52:21.540 --> 00:52:24.930
He didn't, uh, wasn't able to
handcuff that person properly

00:52:24.935 --> 00:52:28.830
and the other person's dead as a
result of that, uh, ineptitude.

00:52:28.830 --> 00:52:34.710
So shouldn't, shouldn't the most
common, the most likely thing, uh, be

00:52:34.710 --> 00:52:39.570
trained the most and the least likely,
uh, thing, uh, be trained the least,

00:52:39.570 --> 00:52:44.410
you know, but, uh, you know, it's just
like, it's least like less, less, less

00:52:44.415 --> 00:52:46.530
likely in Canada that we shoot somebody.

00:52:46.530 --> 00:52:52.560
However, the, um, the, the, the
repercussions of a bad shoot is different

00:52:52.560 --> 00:52:57.840
from a bad wrist lock mm-hmm , you
know, so, so there's a lot of, um,

00:52:58.020 --> 00:53:04.080
training associated with, um, firearms
training, for example, um,  then

00:53:04.080 --> 00:53:06.210
are say handcuffing and, and sure.

00:53:06.210 --> 00:53:09.870
You know, the chance of somebody
being injured in the process of

00:53:09.870 --> 00:53:11.880
handcuffing isn't negligible.

00:53:12.180 --> 00:53:16.740
But if you go, if you let that thing,
slide to the where the gun comes out,

00:53:17.310 --> 00:53:21.720
the final frame analysis, the officer
might be justified, but have they been

00:53:21.720 --> 00:53:28.440
able to cut that, uh, violence encounter
off by initial control, getting,

00:53:28.650 --> 00:53:32.640
gaining control and maintaining control
throughout the whole thing, right?

00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:34.140
People will get control.

00:53:34.140 --> 00:53:36.960
And as soon as they reach for
their handcuffs, the guy bust

00:53:36.965 --> 00:53:41.190
loose because the technique is a
two handed technique of control.

00:53:41.190 --> 00:53:43.050
And then when they
reach now, they've lost.

00:53:43.050 --> 00:53:47.910
Um, and, and incidentally, every, every
joint locking technique, you have to

00:53:47.910 --> 00:53:49.500
have pressure and counter pressure.

00:53:49.550 --> 00:53:51.270
Mm-hmm  you gotta have both mm-hmm.

00:53:52.700 --> 00:53:56.460
In, in, in, in with the twist lock,
which is one of the techniques in the

00:53:56.460 --> 00:53:57.810
book you're pointing the elbow up.

00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.330
Mm-hmm  the, the, the
counter pressure is gravity.

00:54:00.810 --> 00:54:04.590
Otherwise you, you have one hand here, one
hand here and you're doing a joint lock.

00:54:04.620 --> 00:54:08.040
You need, if you just go like this
things gonna move mm-hmm  you have to

00:54:08.040 --> 00:54:09.390
have pressure and counter pressure.

00:54:09.390 --> 00:54:10.400
Mm-hmm . And so.

00:54:11.609 --> 00:54:15.000
so the guy's got him in this joint
lock, a rear bent wrist lock, and

00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:18.240
then they go to reach for handcuff
now, oh, there's no control.

00:54:18.240 --> 00:54:19.470
And the guy just spins out of it.

00:54:20.220 --> 00:54:23.850
So he had good control, but he
lost it because the technique

00:54:23.850 --> 00:54:26.910
that he's using is not effective.

00:54:26.910 --> 00:54:30.330
Mm-hmm  is not effective for
doing one hand control wheres.

00:54:30.330 --> 00:54:33.990
Uh, if you use a, um, a double twist
lock, which is highly featured in

00:54:33.990 --> 00:54:37.470
this book, mm-hmm  with one hand, I
can, I can take you to the ground.

00:54:37.475 --> 00:54:38.339
I can stand you up.

00:54:38.345 --> 00:54:39.210
I can sit you down.

00:54:39.540 --> 00:54:42.930
Uh, I, I could, you could take duct
tape our hands together, and I can

00:54:42.935 --> 00:54:47.430
have you flip flopping all over the
place mm-hmm  without ever, um, um,

00:54:47.549 --> 00:54:51.870
releasing the grip mm-hmm  and it's
the only technique that's like that.

00:54:51.900 --> 00:54:56.430
And I picked that up from actually from,
um, the Royal Hong Kong police academy.

00:54:56.435 --> 00:55:00.930
And when I was on that, uh, when I was
in Hong Kong and they did it in a very.

00:55:01.890 --> 00:55:05.940
Um, the guy was in, I George button
he's dead now, but he was a, he was

00:55:05.945 --> 00:55:10.200
a civilian and, uh, again, and, uh,
he was teaching that and it was, um,

00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:15.690
very sort of, uh, one dimensional
technique and I took it and I've gone.

00:55:15.690 --> 00:55:19.950
I went down, I vented a whole
bunch of, uh, twist lock techniques

00:55:20.310 --> 00:55:22.050
that Ito's never seen before.

00:55:22.140 --> 00:55:25.650
They wouldn't have to, because they
would, they don't go down that road.

00:55:25.670 --> 00:55:27.180
Mm wait.

00:55:27.240 --> 00:55:28.260
They do a double tap.

00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:28.770
That's the end.

00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:30.150
That's the end of the session.

00:55:30.330 --> 00:55:31.650
Mm-hmm where they take the person down.

00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:33.240
They, they don't have to
get 'em into handcuffs.

00:55:33.290 --> 00:55:39.600
Mm-hmm . And so the, um, the,
the end RN game is in policing

00:55:39.600 --> 00:55:40.890
is to get 'em into handcuffs.

00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:41.220
Right.

00:55:41.590 --> 00:55:43.200
And, and, and without
control without, yeah.

00:55:43.845 --> 00:55:45.945
Breaking them if hurting
them, if possible.

00:55:45.975 --> 00:55:52.155
So, yeah, but, uh, so anyways, that's
the essence of, of holding versus

00:55:52.155 --> 00:55:57.015
controlling, controlling versus
hitting, you know, in the optics

00:55:57.020 --> 00:56:00.285
of, uh, today's climate out there.

00:56:00.905 --> 00:56:04.365
I police do you have a bit of a go-to
so if you're going to go you're in

00:56:04.365 --> 00:56:06.645
a situation T comes, start to fail.

00:56:06.705 --> 00:56:07.725
You're gonna have to go hands

00:56:07.725 --> 00:56:07.965
on.

00:56:07.995 --> 00:56:08.805
Oh, absolutely.

00:56:09.225 --> 00:56:10.155
I know where I'm going.

00:56:10.935 --> 00:56:11.055
A

00:56:11.055 --> 00:56:14.745
go-to if you're dealing with
somebody who you say, okay, this

00:56:14.745 --> 00:56:15.915
one might be a little bit of work.

00:56:16.485 --> 00:56:16.695
Yeah.

00:56:16.755 --> 00:56:17.085
Oh yeah.

00:56:17.175 --> 00:56:17.355
Oh yeah.

00:56:17.355 --> 00:56:20.325
I just gotta, you know, you
assess the person, the person's

00:56:20.325 --> 00:56:21.585
got long hair and he's yelling.

00:56:21.585 --> 00:56:23.985
I'm not gonna be, you're
not gonna arrest me.

00:56:24.495 --> 00:56:25.305
I'm just looking.

00:56:25.305 --> 00:56:26.085
Yeah.

00:56:26.115 --> 00:56:26.355
Okay.

00:56:26.565 --> 00:56:27.855
I'll take him down over there.

00:56:27.915 --> 00:56:29.865
Mm-hmm  grab him by the hair on
the opposite side of the head.

00:56:29.865 --> 00:56:30.705
Spin 'em around.

00:56:30.855 --> 00:56:30.975
Yeah.

00:56:31.185 --> 00:56:31.725
Whatever.

00:56:31.725 --> 00:56:34.035
But my go-to, uh, position.

00:56:34.665 --> 00:56:39.195
Has always been to grab the elbow
and get into the blind spot.

00:56:39.195 --> 00:56:43.305
So if you're there, it's like on
my back and I can't get you cuz

00:56:43.310 --> 00:56:44.565
you're, you're holding onto me.

00:56:44.895 --> 00:56:45.245
Right.

00:56:45.615 --> 00:56:46.425
You're back there.

00:56:46.430 --> 00:56:46.565
Right.

00:56:46.570 --> 00:56:49.005
It's like, it's the same thing.

00:56:49.005 --> 00:56:52.305
As you're coming up to a driver
asking for his driver's license and

00:56:52.305 --> 00:56:56.925
registration, you don't stand directly
in front of the, the open window.

00:56:56.930 --> 00:56:57.005
Right?

00:56:57.005 --> 00:56:57.325
Do you?

00:56:57.375 --> 00:56:57.525
Right?

00:56:57.525 --> 00:57:01.275
Because I, the guy going, no, I don't
have my license, but get shot in the face.

00:57:01.335 --> 00:57:01.545
Right.

00:57:01.575 --> 00:57:05.235
So you pee around the corner and Ooh,
in a minute criminal, like where you

00:57:05.235 --> 00:57:09.975
look, I don't know you so and so now
to shoot you, he has to take his right

00:57:09.975 --> 00:57:14.175
hand, get out the window and you're along
the side, like that's a hard shot to

00:57:14.175 --> 00:57:17.170
make mm-hmm . So that's the blind spot.

00:57:17.170 --> 00:57:19.150
When you're asking for
the driver's license and

00:57:19.150 --> 00:57:20.890
registration, it's a safe place.

00:57:20.950 --> 00:57:23.410
Mm-hmm  so this is the same
thing where you grab him by the

00:57:23.410 --> 00:57:25.780
elbow and you stay in that spot.

00:57:25.780 --> 00:57:30.640
So if he moves you move, if you, if, if
you, if he stays stationary, you grab

00:57:30.640 --> 00:57:34.270
him here and he turns into, and you
don't move well, he is gonna crack you.

00:57:34.510 --> 00:57:34.780
Right.

00:57:34.780 --> 00:57:37.120
But if you stay there, it's
just like, if he's stronger than

00:57:37.120 --> 00:57:39.460
you, it, it is very annoying.

00:57:39.855 --> 00:57:43.750
and, and you could punch him and,
and kick him at will if me be.

00:57:43.750 --> 00:57:44.230
But sure.

00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:49.540
So, um, being in that blind spot and
grabbing him there, and quite often,

00:57:49.545 --> 00:57:54.220
when, uh, would, when people go a little
bit, ape shit on me, I'd grab him by the

00:57:54.220 --> 00:57:56.140
elbow and I'd put 'em up against the wall.

00:57:56.370 --> 00:57:57.280
I'd stand in the blind spot.

00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:59.230
In my free hand, I'd
grab him by the throat.

00:57:59.380 --> 00:58:01.930
Mm-hmm  and I'd push him into the wall.

00:58:01.990 --> 00:58:02.230
Right.

00:58:02.235 --> 00:58:03.850
So he can't, he can't Dodge.

00:58:03.850 --> 00:58:04.570
He can't move.

00:58:04.570 --> 00:58:04.630
Yeah.

00:58:05.090 --> 00:58:06.640
He, he can't even drop down.

00:58:06.640 --> 00:58:09.370
He couldn't even drop down to the
ground if that's his strategy.

00:58:09.375 --> 00:58:09.950
Mm-hmm  and.

00:58:11.025 --> 00:58:15.285
and, uh, so, so like a cross grab
in essence mm-hmm  and then you

00:58:15.285 --> 00:58:16.635
can squeeze as much as you want.

00:58:16.635 --> 00:58:19.515
It could probably not recommended
these days, but I'm just talking

00:58:19.520 --> 00:58:21.455
about in the early days, early days.

00:58:21.460 --> 00:58:21.525
Yes.

00:58:21.525 --> 00:58:26.745
When I was discovering yes, the,
uh, um, the safety, um, benefits

00:58:26.745 --> 00:58:28.005
of being in that blind spot.

00:58:28.005 --> 00:58:30.375
That's my, that was my go-to position.

00:58:30.455 --> 00:58:31.185
I have them.

00:58:31.515 --> 00:58:33.375
And then we'd have a talk mm-hmm

00:58:33.945 --> 00:58:35.535
and a very receptive audience.

00:58:35.785 --> 00:58:36.135
Right.

00:58:36.135 --> 00:58:37.215
A very receptive audience.

00:58:37.245 --> 00:58:41.655
So what do you think it's gonna
take, VPDs already incorporating

00:58:41.655 --> 00:58:43.005
some of this into their training.

00:58:43.275 --> 00:58:47.235
Uh, what do you think it's gonna take
for other agencies to incorporate?

00:58:48.195 --> 00:58:52.305
Well, it's a good question, because
like I say, um, police agencies

00:58:52.305 --> 00:58:56.805
are very parochial, even Delta
has their own pension for sure.

00:58:57.015 --> 00:59:01.995
Doing things like they love the P P C T
stuff and, and, uh, uh, Brazilian ground

00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:04.005
fighting, I think, and things like that.

00:59:04.815 --> 00:59:09.255
And, uh, every agency says, well,
my instructors, they, they know

00:59:09.345 --> 00:59:12.165
what's best for us and fair enough.

00:59:12.255 --> 00:59:12.615
Sure.

00:59:13.275 --> 00:59:21.315
But I think that, um, uh, the VPD
has, uh, through Adam Palmer, the

00:59:21.315 --> 00:59:25.485
chief fair, he loves, uh, both
police ju and, uh, odd squad.

00:59:25.575 --> 00:59:31.185
Um, and, uh, he's mandated that all
the police recruits have to do 40

00:59:31.185 --> 00:59:36.345
hours of police, judo training before
they go to the academy, get their 60.

00:59:37.005 --> 00:59:37.425
Wow.

00:59:37.455 --> 00:59:42.015
And we've had, um, anecdotal
feedback saying they learned actually

00:59:42.045 --> 00:59:45.975
quite a bit in that 40 hours and
they really loved that training.

00:59:46.395 --> 00:59:49.245
And, uh, so we're hoping that
there's gonna be some rub

00:59:49.245 --> 00:59:50.535
off at the academy level.

00:59:51.435 --> 00:59:54.525
Uh, I think my book's floating around
there now, so maybe good, good.

00:59:54.525 --> 00:59:59.595
I slow , we'll pick up on some of the
stuff, but it it's just a matter of, um,

00:59:59.955 --> 01:00:06.105
you know, it's, it's promoting things like
my book and this, this Huff, this online,

01:00:06.195 --> 01:00:08.535
uh, training that's coming out this fall.

01:00:09.045 --> 01:00:14.925
Um, and, and then police agencies have to
be aware that there's some alternatives

01:00:14.925 --> 01:00:16.815
before they will actually move towards it.

01:00:16.815 --> 01:00:23.655
But, um, chief Palmers stance
on police judo is backing.

01:00:23.715 --> 01:00:27.375
Um, our training is, is a good example.

01:00:27.525 --> 01:00:35.399
Um, But, um, like say it just takes a
trainer in there that doesn't like the

01:00:35.399 --> 01:00:42.149
concept or he's doing his own martial art,
and doesn't realize that he's handicapping

01:00:42.154 --> 01:00:46.230
other officers by teaching what he
knows instead of what they need to know.

01:00:46.230 --> 01:00:47.879
So, um,

01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:48.149
yeah.

01:00:48.149 --> 01:00:53.399
And I guess with the, any more high
profile cases coming up, the more, uh,

01:00:53.580 --> 01:00:57.209
attention that this will get, we'll
just be raising in people's minds.

01:00:57.209 --> 01:01:00.509
Like isn't there another way isn't
there were there other options

01:01:00.509 --> 01:01:01.589
and why didn't you look at them?

01:01:01.620 --> 01:01:03.480
Why'd you discount them
if you did look at them,

01:01:03.660 --> 01:01:04.020
right?

01:01:04.290 --> 01:01:04.649
Yeah.

01:01:04.919 --> 01:01:06.569
I mean, and even.

01:01:07.710 --> 01:01:11.490
Doing things like simply handcuffing
there's that native, um, elder

01:01:11.490 --> 01:01:14.340
and his granddaughter at the
bank, you know, you remember that?

01:01:14.550 --> 01:01:14.760
Oh, right.

01:01:15.180 --> 01:01:15.330
Yeah.

01:01:15.330 --> 01:01:18.180
So, you know, but be because the
officers are, oh, well we handcuff

01:01:18.180 --> 01:01:21.840
everybody, you know, that's uh,
which is not the right answer.

01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:23.010
You're still using force.

01:01:23.010 --> 01:01:25.830
So you have to count for
why you're handcuffing them.

01:01:26.040 --> 01:01:29.010
And they got it in their mind that
just supposed to handcuff everybody.

01:01:29.010 --> 01:01:32.880
And, uh, you know, it's, it just
went sideways and looks bad.

01:01:32.910 --> 01:01:33.570
Uh, yes.

01:01:33.630 --> 01:01:36.360
You know, it's, uh, looks bad.

01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:37.170
A number of levels.

01:01:37.175 --> 01:01:37.470
Yeah.

01:01:37.590 --> 01:01:44.730
So, but, and, and you'll see, uh,
um, there's things being taught.

01:01:44.730 --> 01:01:48.300
There's a thing called the spear
where you, you do a surprise

01:01:48.300 --> 01:01:51.420
reaction, the baseball bat breaks
and the guys, the crowd, and then

01:01:51.425 --> 01:01:57.360
you turn that ne this response,
uh, reaction into a positive thing.

01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:00.450
And then you push back on
the, on the person to sure.

01:02:00.450 --> 01:02:01.860
Try and keep him off of you.

01:02:03.810 --> 01:02:10.830
Um, the last time I was, uh, surprised
like that was, uh, never  so again, it's a

01:02:10.830 --> 01:02:17.549
civilian teaching it, um, two police, the
police, you know, they, uh, gobble it up.

01:02:17.609 --> 01:02:21.000
It's they get another, they got
a certificate on their wall, the

01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:25.200
trainers call it certification or, uh,
intimidation through certification.

01:02:25.319 --> 01:02:25.529
Right.

01:02:25.535 --> 01:02:29.460
And that the one week spear course up
the thing, but no one's ever done it.

01:02:29.580 --> 01:02:33.680
Mm-hmm  no one mm-hmm  and
yet we teach the twist lock.

01:02:34.225 --> 01:02:34.515
Yeah.

01:02:34.634 --> 01:02:37.815
And all the recruits they're doing,
they're doing it in the jail all the time.

01:02:37.875 --> 01:02:39.645
Mm-hmm  um, I got one recruit.

01:02:39.645 --> 01:02:43.964
He said he did it, uh, 80 times
in the last five months, you

01:02:43.964 --> 01:02:45.585
know, you know, in the skids.

01:02:45.765 --> 01:02:47.234
Cause it works, but, but it works.

01:02:47.265 --> 01:02:47.415
Yeah.

01:02:47.475 --> 01:02:49.665
So I, I, I can, I can show you video.

01:02:49.665 --> 01:02:51.075
I can show you still pictures.

01:02:51.075 --> 01:02:53.145
My there's a bunch of them in my, yeah.

01:02:53.174 --> 01:02:53.984
In my book here.

01:02:54.404 --> 01:02:58.004
It's not, it's not some show me,
somebody show me a picture, a video of

01:02:58.004 --> 01:02:59.924
somebody doing the spear doesn't exist.

01:02:59.924 --> 01:03:02.295
So, but it's a nice tight little package.

01:03:02.295 --> 01:03:05.025
And like I say, the instructor
gets his, give the certification.

01:03:05.025 --> 01:03:05.145
Yeah.

01:03:05.145 --> 01:03:10.455
So the instructor looks like he's got,
um, you know, wide depth of a wide, uh,

01:03:10.995 --> 01:03:15.915
broad range of experience, but the puddles
only like an inch deep, uh, you know, uh,

01:03:15.944 --> 01:03:23.775
so, and they don't know, they seriously,
they don't know the value or the, uh, uh,

01:03:23.805 --> 01:03:26.055
the impracticality of such techniques.

01:03:26.055 --> 01:03:28.095
They just learn.

01:03:28.395 --> 01:03:31.155
what somebody's been is teaching.

01:03:31.215 --> 01:03:36.285
They like it, they get their certificate
and, um, and, and, and it's simple enough

01:03:36.285 --> 01:03:37.965
and they can run with it and teach it.

01:03:37.965 --> 01:03:38.505
Mm-hmm  please.

01:03:38.505 --> 01:03:38.835
Judo.

01:03:38.835 --> 01:03:39.555
Not so much.

01:03:39.615 --> 01:03:44.355
Mm-hmm  yeah, there's a lot to
it, but there's parts of it.

01:03:44.385 --> 01:03:44.745
Yeah.

01:03:45.435 --> 01:03:48.195
Pull out techniques and stuff
like that, but you're not getting

01:03:48.195 --> 01:03:53.205
police judo, uh, you know, um,
certification, um, in a weekend.

01:03:53.745 --> 01:03:56.895
Um, no, so, but, um,

01:03:57.195 --> 01:04:00.075
I, I think in like the litigious
society that we live in, people just

01:04:00.075 --> 01:04:02.445
love and glom onto certificates.

01:04:02.475 --> 01:04:06.045
Oh, you're certified in PP, C T you're
certified in OOC, whatever it might be.

01:04:06.075 --> 01:04:06.225
Right.

01:04:06.435 --> 01:04:07.065
You're covered.

01:04:07.095 --> 01:04:07.215
Okay.

01:04:07.215 --> 01:04:11.205
Department departments on it's side,
and we wanna hire more people that

01:04:11.205 --> 01:04:12.675
have all of these certifications.

01:04:12.680 --> 01:04:17.835
And, um, I'm, I'm wondering if that's
ever gonna reach a tipping point

01:04:17.985 --> 01:04:22.305
of the, well, I, like I say, I've
mentioned before that there's police

01:04:22.305 --> 01:04:26.535
officers starting to think about, um, You
know, counter suing the department for

01:04:26.535 --> 01:04:30.375
failure to train mm-hmm  and part of that
failure to train could be, well you're

01:04:30.375 --> 01:04:32.595
training me, but it's, uh, more useless.

01:04:32.625 --> 01:04:32.835
Yeah.

01:04:32.835 --> 01:04:33.105
Right.

01:04:33.165 --> 01:04:34.035
You're training me.

01:04:34.305 --> 01:04:35.895
And, uh, the techniques don't work.

01:04:36.085 --> 01:04:37.155
Mm-hmm  and you're sending me out there.

01:04:37.155 --> 01:04:42.285
It's like that RCMP guy, he quit
depo because he's being told to teach

01:04:42.290 --> 01:04:43.905
things that he knows doesn't work.

01:04:43.935 --> 01:04:43.965
Mm.

01:04:44.355 --> 01:04:49.425
In, in reality, it looks good on paper
and it's a nice slick little program,

01:04:49.425 --> 01:04:54.795
but he, he realizes that, uh, no, I'm
not, I'm not, uh, serving my brother,

01:04:54.795 --> 01:05:00.615
officer or sister officer very well by
sending him out and having them to try

01:05:00.615 --> 01:05:02.805
and use that technique on the street.

01:05:02.805 --> 01:05:03.705
In reality, I

01:05:03.705 --> 01:05:07.335
just gotta wonder about the world
of litigation that opens up too.

01:05:07.335 --> 01:05:14.535
When a somebody leaves based on their,
uh, assertion that what's being taught,

01:05:14.535 --> 01:05:18.705
isn't gonna be something that's effective,
uh, provided that's communicated to

01:05:18.710 --> 01:05:20.145
the department, to the detachment.

01:05:20.685 --> 01:05:23.745
They've now got a responsibility
to turn around and say,

01:05:25.035 --> 01:05:26.115
okay, we've looked into it.

01:05:26.115 --> 01:05:30.944
We discount your, your thoughts because
a, B and C cuz if they don't, somebody

01:05:30.950 --> 01:05:36.705
else will get themselves hurt and they've
got this precedent of somebody leaving.

01:05:37.185 --> 01:05:39.404
I, I mean that the optics
of that are terrible.

01:05:39.435 --> 01:05:40.754
I, I gotta wonder.

01:05:41.984 --> 01:05:42.285
Yeah.

01:05:42.585 --> 01:05:45.165
And, and of course we're talking
about the RCMP and, you know,

01:05:45.225 --> 01:05:48.734
municipal police and the, um, federal
police, there are gonna be two

01:05:48.734 --> 01:05:50.294
completely different beasts as well.

01:05:50.444 --> 01:05:50.475
Mm.

01:05:50.685 --> 01:05:54.645
And I think the municipal police are able
to perhaps respond to issues more quicker,

01:05:55.035 --> 01:05:55.544
faster.

01:05:55.555 --> 01:05:59.774
It's like the RCMP is like trying to
turn around a, you know, ocean liner.

01:05:59.835 --> 01:06:08.895
They very, um, bureaucratic, uh,
organization and, um, and, um, police in

01:06:08.895 --> 01:06:16.455
general, they're very traditional, um,
kind of, um, Agencies, you know, they're

01:06:16.455 --> 01:06:21.674
not really ones to think outside the
box really, really quickly really well.

01:06:21.674 --> 01:06:27.435
They, they want sort of the status
quo and, and they're really bit

01:06:27.435 --> 01:06:29.085
reluctant about trying something new.

01:06:29.085 --> 01:06:32.595
Like for like, for example, when we
started odd squad in 97, I was gonna

01:06:32.595 --> 01:06:33.975
ask, we were borderline in inherit.

01:06:34.335 --> 01:06:34.665
Right?

01:06:35.265 --> 01:06:36.015
Wow.

01:06:36.105 --> 01:06:37.265
Seven police officers.

01:06:37.265 --> 01:06:42.045
They wanna educate, uh, youth in
particular about drugs and gangs

01:06:42.045 --> 01:06:45.255
and, and we're picking up cameras
and there's a thin blue line, right?

01:06:45.285 --> 01:06:45.555
Oh God.

01:06:45.560 --> 01:06:45.855
Yeah.

01:06:45.855 --> 01:06:47.174
They're going, whoa.

01:06:47.355 --> 01:06:52.665
Like, no, I mean, odd squad
is about proactive policing.

01:06:52.665 --> 01:06:55.815
It's about, um, you
know, community policing.

01:06:55.815 --> 01:06:59.715
It's about, uh, uh, doing something.

01:07:00.600 --> 01:07:04.350
thinking outside the box to try
and solve a problem that you can't

01:07:04.350 --> 01:07:06.840
arrest your way out of mm-hmm  you
can't arrest your way out of that.

01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:11.400
So, you know, the, uh, the best
way is to try and prevent the bomb

01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:14.710
from blowing up in the first place,
rather than just mopping up the,

01:07:14.759 --> 01:07:16.259
the blood and the guts afterwards.

01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:17.250
You know, I remember

01:07:17.250 --> 01:07:21.045
when that started and I remember
hearing the, um,  uh, the different

01:07:21.045 --> 01:07:22.395
sides and different opinions.

01:07:22.395 --> 01:07:24.645
And everyone's like, well, you know,
good for them, but there's always

01:07:24.645 --> 01:07:30.195
that reluctance and hesitation and
maybe fear of, uh, this being exposed

01:07:30.195 --> 01:07:31.515
and what there's light shine on it.

01:07:31.785 --> 01:07:32.085
Yeah.

01:07:32.145 --> 01:07:32.445
And,

01:07:32.445 --> 01:07:38.205
and, um, the, we, we broke a lot of
ice there for police carrying cameras

01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:44.055
and, and, and even for these reality
shows to, to come out, um, subsequent

01:07:44.055 --> 01:07:48.165
to that, mm-hmm , um, you know, we
were always the one police used to

01:07:48.170 --> 01:07:50.805
be always the ones holding the door
open for the filmmaker and they

01:07:50.805 --> 01:07:52.455
went, wait a minute, we can do this.

01:07:53.685 --> 01:07:55.545
so we'll make our own videos.

01:07:55.550 --> 01:08:02.455
And, uh, and it was, um, Uh, LoRa can
file generally respected what we doing

01:08:02.455 --> 01:08:04.045
when they understood what we're doing.

01:08:04.045 --> 01:08:07.795
Mm-hmm and then there's a few, uh, people
in the police department, their nose were

01:08:07.795 --> 01:08:13.225
a joint or, uh, they weren't part of it,
uh, you know, credo that, and they're

01:08:13.230 --> 01:08:18.835
jealous and, and you think the higher up
that, uh, people go the, the more refined

01:08:19.225 --> 01:08:21.055
they are as a person and not necessarily.

01:08:21.055 --> 01:08:22.605
So the Peter principal, right.

01:08:22.945 --> 01:08:24.355
Just, you know, proves that.

01:08:24.360 --> 01:08:28.855
So, and we've had, uh, we had,
we had a former mayor wanted

01:08:28.855 --> 01:08:30.595
Toby and I fired really?

01:08:30.595 --> 01:08:31.225
We spent three.

01:08:31.230 --> 01:08:31.435
Yeah.

01:08:31.615 --> 01:08:36.415
They, they put three lawyers on
it, then like $120,000 to see

01:08:36.415 --> 01:08:39.115
if odd squad could have a voice
independent of the police department.

01:08:39.115 --> 01:08:42.235
And answer was, uh, yes, we can.

01:08:42.610 --> 01:08:46.015
and, um, and, but, you know, so.

01:08:48.825 --> 01:08:53.325
But when you're at the spear tip of the
spear, you gotta expect some resistance.

01:08:53.325 --> 01:08:54.556
You're doing things, right.

01:08:54.615 --> 01:08:55.845
You're changing things.

01:08:55.845 --> 01:09:01.005
You're out of this conservative group
and you're gonna get some resistance.

01:09:01.005 --> 01:09:06.015
They're gonna be people that once they
see how the, the tip cuts, they're going,

01:09:06.015 --> 01:09:07.515
that's cutting in the right direction.

01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:08.205
I like that.

01:09:08.445 --> 01:09:13.335
But you get some other, uh,
uh, police, uh, mucky, mucks.

01:09:13.720 --> 01:09:17.410
Say no, I don't, this it's just,
they see it as more paperwork or

01:09:17.410 --> 01:09:21.670
it's, or there's a bit of a risk
involved or something in there.

01:09:21.670 --> 01:09:23.979
They, they don't wanna,
they don't want to do that.

01:09:24.099 --> 01:09:24.760
Right.

01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:29.080
So, well, you've always, so you
and you were right there, ground

01:09:29.080 --> 01:09:31.510
level odd squad when that started

01:09:31.510 --> 01:09:31.779
up.

01:09:31.870 --> 01:09:32.080
Yeah.

01:09:32.080 --> 01:09:32.380
Yeah.

01:09:32.439 --> 01:09:35.319
Uh it's like, it was, um, I'm
sort of the creative seed behind

01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:37.029
both odd squad and police judo.

01:09:37.120 --> 01:09:41.830
Toby's the worker be  he takes stuff
and runs with it, you know, but,

01:09:42.130 --> 01:09:44.679
um, initially on, uh, good for him.

01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:45.490
Good for, to, yeah.

01:09:45.550 --> 01:09:45.790
Yeah.

01:09:45.889 --> 01:09:47.109
On odds in odd squad.

01:09:47.109 --> 01:09:49.450
Uh, we were both at it for really hard.

01:09:49.630 --> 01:09:52.840
We were going, uh, 90 miles an hour.

01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:54.250
We were working seven days a week.

01:09:54.250 --> 01:09:57.820
And, you know, just thinking nothing
about grabbing a camera and going out to

01:09:57.820 --> 01:10:02.740
Surry on our day off at two o'clock in
the morning to, you know, uh, videotape,

01:10:02.769 --> 01:10:06.820
uh, an attic who just come down after
the three day crystal meth run type thing

01:10:06.825 --> 01:10:09.290
and, uh, you know, stuff like that is.

01:10:10.110 --> 01:10:14.040
Uh, you know, it's, uh, just a
tremendous amount of work, but

01:10:14.070 --> 01:10:15.900
it it's paid off in the long run.

01:10:15.900 --> 01:10:20.430
We've beg board and stolen,
whatever we can to keep ourselves

01:10:20.430 --> 01:10:23.730
going, we don't get any federal
money or, uh, provincial money.

01:10:23.730 --> 01:10:25.620
We just do fundraisers.

01:10:25.620 --> 01:10:29.580
And again, they drop more than a
million dollars a day in the skids.

01:10:29.580 --> 01:10:33.269
And if we we'd have 1% of
that, it would be rolling in do

01:10:34.080 --> 01:10:34.170
well.

01:10:34.175 --> 01:10:36.059
You've got a whole team
now don't on odd squad.

01:10:36.090 --> 01:10:36.420
Oh yeah.

01:10:36.420 --> 01:10:36.599
Yeah.

01:10:36.599 --> 01:10:37.710
We've, we've lost.

01:10:37.710 --> 01:10:41.130
Uh, we, we started off with originally
with seven guys and then very

01:10:41.135 --> 01:10:45.450
early on, uh, we picked up Chris,
uh, Graham, uh, doing the hockey.

01:10:45.455 --> 01:10:47.820
He had a hockey program
running parallel to ours.

01:10:47.849 --> 01:10:53.430
Uh, it was educating hockey, um,
players junior a about, um, the perils

01:10:53.430 --> 01:10:55.019
of drug abuse and things like that.

01:10:55.019 --> 01:10:59.460
And, and Brian shipper was, um,
sort of quiet behind the scenes guy.

01:10:59.639 --> 01:11:02.610
Just always, uh, uh, helping us out.

01:11:02.975 --> 01:11:03.245
Mm.

01:11:03.515 --> 01:11:07.595
And then couple of the odds squad
guys dropped out very quickly.

01:11:07.595 --> 01:11:10.865
And then we've picked up a few
other people with Doug Spencer

01:11:10.865 --> 01:11:13.955
doing the gang, uh, uh, stuff.

01:11:14.305 --> 01:11:14.915
He's amazing.

01:11:14.915 --> 01:11:19.265
He's he just guy does
so many presentations.

01:11:19.265 --> 01:11:24.125
And, um, we picked up a younger
people like Constable Brendan Frick.

01:11:24.125 --> 01:11:25.295
He was a police judo.

01:11:26.675 --> 01:11:30.665
I know he's a police judo black belt, and
he does a tremendous amount with odd squad

01:11:30.665 --> 01:11:32.855
and just a wonderful young Constable.

01:11:32.860 --> 01:11:38.015
So we have a new generation of,
uh, people, uh, coming up into odd

01:11:38.015 --> 01:11:40.355
squad cuz you know, Toby and I are
getting a little along in the tooth.

01:11:40.355 --> 01:11:43.295
I'm I'm gonna be 70, uh, in February.

01:11:44.165 --> 01:11:45.515
Toby's 10 years behind me.

01:11:45.515 --> 01:11:46.775
We have March nine camp.

01:11:46.775 --> 01:11:48.905
He's a little bit behind, uh, Toby.

01:11:48.905 --> 01:11:50.255
And so,

01:11:50.255 --> 01:11:54.215
uh, so what's, what's the driving force
between creating all of these new sort

01:11:54.215 --> 01:11:59.644
of, uh, programs, these ideologies,
these, uh, the directions, the odd

01:11:59.644 --> 01:12:03.275
squad was kind of revolutionary,
particularly around pure event.

01:12:03.280 --> 01:12:04.845
I don't know of other
places that were doing it.

01:12:04.845 --> 01:12:05.765
It's, what's unique in the world.

01:12:05.825 --> 01:12:06.394
There you go.

01:12:06.455 --> 01:12:09.515
Uh, this, uh, the police
judo is something that I

01:12:09.515 --> 01:12:11.165
haven't seen again, unique in the world.

01:12:11.285 --> 01:12:11.375
Right.

01:12:11.765 --> 01:12:16.055
I mean, it's just, I, I think if, uh,
you could have had the same group of

01:12:16.055 --> 01:12:22.055
people, like, uh, Toby and Brian and
mark and myself and, and, um, whomever.

01:12:23.070 --> 01:12:26.850
On the, on the police judo side of
things, we could have been, you know,

01:12:26.910 --> 01:12:31.440
working left Testco Saskatchewan and
oh, we made another arrest again.

01:12:31.440 --> 01:12:32.490
That's two for the year.

01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:33.690
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no.

01:12:33.690 --> 01:12:39.090
So there's no necessity there and there's
no invention, but since we are armpit in

01:12:39.120 --> 01:12:43.980
deep in human misery and, uh, the drug
and the stuff that we saw down there

01:12:44.130 --> 01:12:49.850
and are resting so many people in the,
the human behavior at its worst, it's

01:12:49.855 --> 01:12:55.590
just, um, it's just, it was just, um,
if anybody had, should have PTSD, it

01:12:55.590 --> 01:12:59.550
should be like Toby and I and mark, and
who spent a lot of time in the skid,

01:12:59.850 --> 01:13:07.500
but, uh, the, um, the end, the end game
there, or end result of all that is let.

01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:14.730
Try and be creative and think outside
the box and see if there's another way

01:13:14.730 --> 01:13:19.530
of tackling this, because the way it's
being done is not really effective

01:13:19.559 --> 01:13:21.510
or it's, mm-hmm,  not practical.

01:13:21.930 --> 01:13:26.250
And so, you know, you got the, the
skid road there and one side of the

01:13:26.250 --> 01:13:31.200
fence, we got, uh, trying to keep other
people from becoming drug addicted

01:13:31.200 --> 01:13:34.410
and, and humanizing the addicts.

01:13:34.740 --> 01:13:38.790
You know, they, you know, they just
didn't choose to be a drug addict really.

01:13:38.790 --> 01:13:42.870
And, um, and then the other side of the
fence is like the people, the police

01:13:42.875 --> 01:13:47.910
that deal with them wanna keep, uh, them
safe by giving them superior tactics.

01:13:47.970 --> 01:13:52.410
Mm-hmm  we also want these superior taxes
going to keep the, uh, drug addicts safe.

01:13:52.410 --> 01:13:56.760
They say, they're not getting their arms
broken, their jaw, jaw broken and stuff

01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:58.410
like that because they're whacked out.

01:13:58.710 --> 01:13:58.890
Yeah.

01:13:58.950 --> 01:14:04.559
And, um, so you know, you
basically, you want to have your.

01:14:05.310 --> 01:14:07.740
These people treated like
it was a family member.

01:14:07.740 --> 01:14:12.300
It happened to me once I had a,
someone in my family that was suicidal

01:14:12.300 --> 01:14:15.060
and drinking and, and on drugs.

01:14:15.120 --> 01:14:19.140
And I sent the SMP over and
I'm going, oh God, I hope it's.

01:14:19.380 --> 01:14:23.220
I hope it's somebody that's well
grounded and have good technique

01:14:23.220 --> 01:14:26.670
versus somebody that, oh my God,
this guy wants to beat this up.

01:14:26.670 --> 01:14:30.510
And then he's gonna get his arm broken
mm-hmm  and I sent, you know, or worse.

01:14:30.570 --> 01:14:36.480
So, um, so, you know, it's, it's
kind of, uh, it's kind of like that.

01:14:36.480 --> 01:14:45.600
So we've out of the, that, that miserable
neighborhood is full of, uh, dysfunction.

01:14:45.930 --> 01:14:47.190
There's some good people
down there as well.

01:14:47.519 --> 01:14:47.640
Sure.

01:14:47.640 --> 01:14:51.330
My uncle Frank lived down there for his
whole adult life and he was a, he was

01:14:51.330 --> 01:14:55.680
an alcoholic and never got into trouble,
but there he died a few years ago.

01:14:56.070 --> 01:14:59.460
Buts he, um, there's, there's good
people down there, but there's

01:14:59.519 --> 01:15:00.690
a lot of people there, there.

01:15:01.950 --> 01:15:03.299
Quite frankly, dysfunctional.

01:15:03.299 --> 01:15:07.410
And they, they go there because the
rent's cheap, they can lose themselves.

01:15:07.429 --> 01:15:10.290
They, the government's
gonna look after them.

01:15:10.500 --> 01:15:14.669
Mm-hmm  and, um, and they
fit in because no one cares.

01:15:14.669 --> 01:15:18.750
If you got a mental illness or, or
criminal or whatever, they just don't

01:15:18.754 --> 01:15:23.400
give a shit mm-hmm . And, um, and as much
as they like to call it a neighborhood.

01:15:23.400 --> 01:15:24.120
Yeah.

01:15:24.509 --> 01:15:26.339
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:15:26.339 --> 01:15:33.480
That same neighborhood, um, that
put my, I end up staking myself out

01:15:33.480 --> 01:15:37.500
in, in, in my last year, on the job
to get robbed down there because

01:15:37.504 --> 01:15:40.509
there's, uh, civilian brought in.

01:15:41.340 --> 01:15:46.020
Um, footage shot from, uh, a top
of a building of these two older

01:15:46.020 --> 01:15:47.460
people getting robbed, right.

01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:49.230
Violently robbed.

01:15:49.235 --> 01:15:49.480
Right.

01:15:49.500 --> 01:15:52.050
And, and he showed us this
and I said, this isn't right.

01:15:52.050 --> 01:15:55.050
So Toby and I hatched a
plan called old timer.

01:15:55.050 --> 01:15:57.240
And I stick myself out in the lane weight.

01:15:57.260 --> 01:15:58.190
To be robbed.

01:15:58.310 --> 01:15:58.530
Mm.

01:15:58.790 --> 01:16:01.700
I actually wore a helmet because I
thought I was gonna get boot fucked

01:16:01.790 --> 01:16:03.770
mm-hmm  and we had a camera in there.

01:16:03.770 --> 01:16:04.670
It was controlled.

01:16:04.670 --> 01:16:05.930
My hand was in a bandage.

01:16:05.930 --> 01:16:10.850
I can control the, uh, the, uh, hidden
microphone and control the video camera.

01:16:10.880 --> 01:16:16.130
And we film them from across the, uh,
the laneway to, uh, was in the, the

01:16:16.130 --> 01:16:19.940
two worst neighborhood, uh, laneway in
the skids and, uh, two nights in a row.

01:16:19.940 --> 01:16:22.580
And we nailed two robbery crews.

01:16:22.670 --> 01:16:23.210
Yeah.

01:16:23.510 --> 01:16:28.100
And I had a flash roll of some money
and I bought some crack and showed

01:16:28.100 --> 01:16:29.480
them the money, you know, and right.

01:16:29.480 --> 01:16:33.290
Oh man, you shouldn't show that your money
around here, you know, you know, the guy

01:16:33.295 --> 01:16:35.420
was guy, the guy was he like sausage?

01:16:35.420 --> 01:16:35.810
Yeah, yeah.

01:16:35.810 --> 01:16:36.950
Guy wasn't being friendly to me.

01:16:36.950 --> 01:16:39.650
He didn't want any competition
when he was gonna Rob me later.

01:16:39.650 --> 01:16:40.190
And he did.

01:16:40.700 --> 01:16:41.540
And so, yeah.

01:16:41.540 --> 01:16:45.740
So he cut the, the strap off my neck,
like a man person underneath the jacket.

01:16:45.740 --> 01:16:45.800
Yeah.

01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:47.210
And I thought I was gonna get a yeah.

01:16:47.240 --> 01:16:48.020
Razor blade.

01:16:48.475 --> 01:16:52.075
Know, off my neck had an ambulance
standing a block away, but

01:16:52.075 --> 01:16:56.035
that was the most frightening
thing I did, uh, in my career.

01:16:56.035 --> 01:16:58.375
And I had, uh, PTSD for about three weeks.

01:16:58.405 --> 01:17:00.085
Mm-hmm  I went immediately to Thailand.

01:17:00.085 --> 01:17:03.595
I was walking around bumbling
around banging my head on

01:17:03.595 --> 01:17:05.275
things and falling off a curbs.

01:17:05.275 --> 01:17:08.515
And just, yeah, it's
like having a chip tooth.

01:17:08.935 --> 01:17:12.325
Your tongue goes over that chip portion.

01:17:12.325 --> 01:17:14.155
It's gone leave it alone.

01:17:14.215 --> 01:17:14.425
Yeah.

01:17:14.430 --> 01:17:17.725
But it's like, I day night
that's a good explanation.

01:17:17.935 --> 01:17:21.595
I'd re re I would, I would rerun
the scenarios in my head and

01:17:21.595 --> 01:17:22.765
sometimes they would change.

01:17:23.095 --> 01:17:25.135
What if the guy had to
slip my, uh, throat?

01:17:25.195 --> 01:17:27.625
What, you know, what if
he booted me in the face?

01:17:27.625 --> 01:17:28.615
What if this happened?

01:17:28.615 --> 01:17:33.085
When I, you know, and, um, it
was, it was quite frightening.

01:17:33.355 --> 01:17:36.985
So I did get a, I did get accommodation
for it, but it was for meritorious

01:17:36.985 --> 01:17:40.105
service because the, uh, uh, UN mentioned.

01:17:41.280 --> 01:17:45.390
Uh, person in the police department
who I would just say is plain jealous

01:17:45.394 --> 01:17:47.280
says you can't premeditate bravery.

01:17:47.820 --> 01:17:50.730
I go, isn't that the isn't that
the essence of bravery will you

01:17:50.730 --> 01:17:52.260
say, wow, this is gonna hurt.

01:17:52.265 --> 01:17:52.830
It's gonna hurt.

01:17:52.840 --> 01:17:53.540
I'm doing it anyways.

01:17:53.559 --> 01:17:54.269
I'm doing it anyways.

01:17:54.269 --> 01:17:56.340
That's bravery not to
run around the corner.

01:17:56.460 --> 01:17:57.450
Oh, it happens the bank robber.

01:17:57.690 --> 01:17:57.720
Oh.

01:17:57.780 --> 01:17:59.940
And they, you, you pull out your
gun and they drop their gun.

01:17:59.940 --> 01:18:03.599
You would get it for bravery
for, uh, stopping a bank robbery.

01:18:03.630 --> 01:18:03.990
But right.

01:18:04.260 --> 01:18:04.620
Anyways,

01:18:05.220 --> 01:18:09.750
no, that's, uh, you know, the anticipation
of the event, the anticipation of the

01:18:09.750 --> 01:18:11.460
fight is always worse than the fight.

01:18:11.905 --> 01:18:12.059
right.

01:18:12.059 --> 01:18:12.240
Yeah,

01:18:12.510 --> 01:18:13.050
exactly.

01:18:13.140 --> 01:18:14.160
I'm 45 minutes.

01:18:14.160 --> 01:18:17.010
I'm waiting, you know, and I had a
little bean in my ear and Toby's,

01:18:17.015 --> 01:18:20.550
uh, uh, telling me what's going
okay, they're forming a human shield.

01:18:20.550 --> 01:18:22.349
They've got five people
standing around you.

01:18:22.349 --> 01:18:27.120
I'm, I'm laying on a, a piece of car
on a cardboard in, in the lane way.

01:18:27.370 --> 01:18:27.660
Yeah.

01:18:27.665 --> 01:18:31.080
Uh, having bought some crack, pretend
to smoke it and pass out, which right.

01:18:31.410 --> 01:18:32.610
Doesn't really make a lot of sense.

01:18:32.610 --> 01:18:33.690
But anyway, they, they bought it.

01:18:34.559 --> 01:18:38.095
uh, and, um, They say, oh,
the guy's for kneeling down.

01:18:38.095 --> 01:18:42.235
He's grabbed your strap and
he's sling away at your thing.

01:18:42.235 --> 01:18:44.845
Uh, you know, it's just like 45 minutes.

01:18:44.845 --> 01:18:47.875
Like that both nights, I was just
like, oh God, when's it gonna happen?

01:18:47.965 --> 01:18:48.325
Yeah.

01:18:48.385 --> 01:18:51.565
And, uh, you know, I
just had one good hand.

01:18:51.570 --> 01:18:52.435
I was gonna sit up.

01:18:52.675 --> 01:18:57.085
That was the, the, uh, the
signal that they've been robbed.

01:18:57.175 --> 01:18:57.465
Yeah.

01:18:57.895 --> 01:19:03.775
I just sit up and, um, the guy
saw away and then he laughed and.

01:19:04.695 --> 01:19:06.195
No Al hasn't given the signal yet.

01:19:06.195 --> 01:19:08.894
So he went around the corner,
the knife he had was two dull.

01:19:08.894 --> 01:19:10.125
So he bought a razor blade.

01:19:10.125 --> 01:19:13.965
So he could saw the, oh man
strap right off my neck.

01:19:13.995 --> 01:19:14.085
Right.

01:19:14.894 --> 01:19:17.174
And then the, then the,
uh, robbery went down.

01:19:17.174 --> 01:19:21.554
He couldn't make it easy for me to off
. But you, you talk about, you know, you're

01:19:21.559 --> 01:19:26.865
inside your head and I'm pretending to
be asleep snoring and the, the stuff

01:19:26.865 --> 01:19:32.235
that runs through your head, the, your
mind bounces around and, you know yeah.

01:19:32.295 --> 01:19:32.684
The funny

01:19:32.684 --> 01:19:33.495
games that plays.

01:19:33.655 --> 01:19:33.945
Yeah.

01:19:33.950 --> 01:19:37.946
People, the other police officer behind
panic bars, you know, right in the

01:19:37.951 --> 01:19:40.485
hotel panic bar where the word panic.

01:19:40.490 --> 01:19:40.844
Yeah.

01:19:40.844 --> 01:19:45.165
It's like now it's like panic, you
know, strong arm, you know, I, uh,

01:19:45.165 --> 01:19:49.844
this, uh, oh, it's just like stuff
would run through my head and.

01:19:51.150 --> 01:19:52.290
Even scenarios.

01:19:52.290 --> 01:19:55.470
I'd be trying to shut my mind
off to not worry about it.

01:19:55.470 --> 01:19:57.510
I gotta concentrate on snoring here.

01:19:57.810 --> 01:20:00.900
Um, uh, I couldn't let my
mind get, uh, too preoccupied.

01:20:00.905 --> 01:20:06.300
And then I'm hearing the play by
play in my ear underneath my helmet

01:20:06.300 --> 01:20:09.600
and I'm going, oh God, I wonder
how this is gonna end, end up.

01:20:10.050 --> 01:20:11.580
But, um, yeah.

01:20:11.700 --> 01:20:14.370
And always said old timer
and they used the footage.

01:20:14.370 --> 01:20:17.430
It went around the, uh, north
American continent at least.

01:20:17.450 --> 01:20:18.060
Yeah, I guess.

01:20:18.065 --> 01:20:22.380
Yeah, it was pretty classic
operation, but very interesting.

01:20:22.380 --> 01:20:26.280
But that, that was diff even that
was difficult to pass because we

01:20:26.280 --> 01:20:30.570
had to bring in the use of force
or, um, uh, the undercover, um, a

01:20:30.570 --> 01:20:36.660
trainer to look at our operational
plan to make sure that, uh, oh fuck.

01:20:36.660 --> 01:20:37.980
I'm in my last year.

01:20:37.985 --> 01:20:41.550
So I'm expendable, but  they didn't
want, they didn't want the paperwork

01:20:41.550 --> 01:20:45.870
saying, oh, he died, you know, poor Al
got his neck slashed, then he's dead.

01:20:45.870 --> 01:20:48.480
So you know, a lot of paperwork
there, but he wanted to make sure.

01:20:49.530 --> 01:20:51.180
That, um, we could do it.

01:20:51.180 --> 01:20:59.040
And he looked at my skillset and my,
my own, uh, undercover, um, time in

01:20:59.040 --> 01:21:04.470
Strikeforce and, um, things like that and
realized that yeah, he had a good plan.

01:21:04.500 --> 01:21:09.440
Uh I'm you know, I'm a good, uh,
decoy and, um, so I went with it.

01:21:09.915 --> 01:21:12.225
Somebody else could have just
shut it down, you know, they'd

01:21:12.225 --> 01:21:13.455
say no, it's too dangerous.

01:21:14.385 --> 01:21:15.015
Being conservative.

01:21:15.015 --> 01:21:18.315
I was surprised actually, they, they
okayed it, but maybe they didn't like me.

01:21:19.635 --> 01:21:21.485
I mean, a couple enemies, so, well, yeah,

01:21:22.545 --> 01:21:22.765
go.

01:21:23.265 --> 01:21:29.715
I think, uh, having the background in
the police judo and having the, uh, the

01:21:29.715 --> 01:21:33.525
physical capabilities probably really
helped with the mental resiliency.

01:21:33.555 --> 01:21:33.735
Yeah.

01:21:33.735 --> 01:21:34.005
In those

01:21:34.005 --> 01:21:36.195
days, it wasn't in, you
know, it was in 2005.

01:21:36.525 --> 01:21:36.615
Right.

01:21:36.615 --> 01:21:41.205
So it was, um, sort of predates
police, judo, uh, martial arts.

01:21:41.445 --> 01:21:41.655
Yeah.

01:21:41.655 --> 01:21:47.025
But my martial arts, I was, uh, quite
confident in my physical abilities.

01:21:47.055 --> 01:21:50.625
Uh, even though I was,
uh, year from retirement.

01:21:51.285 --> 01:21:57.885
Um, I've, you know, my, so my
physical decline was, uh, on its

01:21:57.885 --> 01:22:01.005
way, you know, happening, uh,
even to this day, I'm still fit.

01:22:01.005 --> 01:22:01.575
Like I'm a problem.

01:22:01.575 --> 01:22:03.325
I mean, you're 70 and you're you're fit.

01:22:03.330 --> 01:22:08.085
No, I'm still running and doing all kinds
of things, doing weights and doing martial

01:22:08.085 --> 01:22:16.200
arts, but, um, Um, the, um, tactically
mentally, I, I could go back into patrol

01:22:16.200 --> 01:22:21.720
tomorrow at age 70 mm-hmm  because,
uh, my, my mind, I still read case law.

01:22:22.020 --> 01:22:25.350
I'm I teach police ju I go on
police course training courses.

01:22:25.680 --> 01:22:26.610
What the fuck are you doing here?

01:22:26.615 --> 01:22:28.410
I, you retired a long time ago.

01:22:28.410 --> 01:22:31.860
Yeah, I, but you know, I go, go
for a walk along to ride alongs,

01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:33.570
but keeps your work relevant too.

01:22:33.810 --> 01:22:34.380
Yeah, exactly.

01:22:34.380 --> 01:22:38.670
I wanna be say, oh, when you know,
18 years ago when I was on that job,

01:22:38.670 --> 01:22:42.060
this is what we did, you know, mm-hmm
I wanna be sort of, uh, current,

01:22:42.390 --> 01:22:45.210
and then of course my use of force
having to write this book about.

01:22:45.570 --> 01:22:46.590
Please use of force.

01:22:46.710 --> 01:22:48.840
I have to be, this is cutting edge, right?

01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:50.940
This, this is not 40 years ago.

01:22:51.030 --> 01:22:51.180
Yeah.

01:22:51.210 --> 01:22:53.910
This is cutting edge stuff.

01:22:53.970 --> 01:22:54.240
Right.

01:22:54.300 --> 01:22:59.580
And so, uh, so like I say, I could, I
could go back on the street tomorrow and,

01:22:59.585 --> 01:23:02.130
um, and uh, do quite well, well, I have

01:23:02.130 --> 01:23:06.330
a feeling that's a lot of officers out
there that will benefit greatly from

01:23:06.330 --> 01:23:10.650
this book and the subsequent books
that, uh, that you've, uh, alluded to

01:23:10.650 --> 01:23:12.420
both in this podcast and in this book.

01:23:12.450 --> 01:23:12.540
Yeah.

01:23:12.570 --> 01:23:12.810
So

01:23:12.810 --> 01:23:13.980
from this, I'm going to.

01:23:15.650 --> 01:23:16.940
Police are lazy and cheap.

01:23:17.450 --> 01:23:17.809
Sure.

01:23:17.809 --> 01:23:21.290
So this book's, I don't know,
86 bucks or something it's

01:23:21.290 --> 01:23:23.809
expensive and for good reason,

01:23:23.839 --> 01:23:24.740
what's your life worth?

01:23:24.889 --> 01:23:25.820
Yeah, what's a lawsuit

01:23:25.820 --> 01:23:31.879
worth what's  but, um, yeah, so, and,
and, um, and, and they don't want to,

01:23:31.879 --> 01:23:35.990
they don't want, now Wade through all
this stuff, let alone try and practice it.

01:23:35.990 --> 01:23:42.349
So too, it might be a bit much for the,
the average flat foot, but, um, I'm

01:23:42.349 --> 01:23:45.500
gonna make a, from this, I'm gonna do a
prey of it and call it essential joint

01:23:45.504 --> 01:23:46.969
locking technique for law enforcement.

01:23:46.969 --> 01:23:50.599
It'll be like arresting people for
dummies, you know, mm-hmm  but so

01:23:50.599 --> 01:23:53.089
that'll be coming out, uh, next year.

01:23:53.299 --> 01:23:56.150
So it'll be maybe a third
of the size of this book.

01:23:56.150 --> 01:23:59.269
So rather than doing, you
know, four different shoulder

01:23:59.269 --> 01:24:00.410
cranks to rest of 'em right.

01:24:00.410 --> 01:24:02.210
I'll just teach one and, and.

01:24:02.985 --> 01:24:09.585
Basically in here there's I, I just broke
down roughly eight forms of resistance.

01:24:09.585 --> 01:24:10.545
You grab an arm.

01:24:10.635 --> 01:24:12.735
He can, you can, he can bend his arm.

01:24:12.735 --> 01:24:13.875
He can straighten his arm.

01:24:13.965 --> 01:24:15.405
He could, he could pull away.

01:24:15.405 --> 01:24:16.455
He could push into you.

01:24:16.455 --> 01:24:18.195
He could drop straight to the ground.

01:24:18.195 --> 01:24:20.475
He could do all these, you know,
eight trying to attack you.

01:24:20.625 --> 01:24:20.715
Yeah.

01:24:20.805 --> 01:24:24.735
So eight different kinds of resistance
and I'm going, okay, just learn one.

01:24:25.725 --> 01:24:27.135
Yeah, just one counter.

01:24:27.615 --> 01:24:31.245
So if you grab somebody, they
can do one of those eight things.

01:24:32.325 --> 01:24:34.455
Now in the academy, they
might teach you two.

01:24:34.605 --> 01:24:34.635
Mm.

01:24:36.285 --> 01:24:38.685
So when I say, well, if
you're smart, you'd learn all.

01:24:39.255 --> 01:24:40.855
Eight mm-hmm  eight.

01:24:41.115 --> 01:24:44.325
If you learn six, then act surprised if
the other one or the other two come out.

01:24:44.565 --> 01:24:47.715
Mm-hmm , you know, so that's,
that's, that's all you have to do.

01:24:47.715 --> 01:24:50.205
And, and they can look at this
book and say, I don't like this.

01:24:50.235 --> 01:24:51.405
I love this technique.

01:24:51.465 --> 01:24:54.375
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna use that technique.

01:24:54.375 --> 01:24:58.695
And it's, you know, the pictures are
easy enough to follow and there's arrows.

01:24:58.695 --> 01:25:00.315
Totally it's well written.

01:25:00.405 --> 01:25:00.855
Yeah.

01:25:00.855 --> 01:25:04.725
Uh, and my first book, I was, uh,
entitled chink, which is a joint

01:25:04.725 --> 01:25:08.955
locking, uh, season and controlling
in, in, um, ground fighting.

01:25:09.195 --> 01:25:09.555
Mm.

01:25:09.705 --> 01:25:10.095
Because I.

01:25:11.535 --> 01:25:17.835
coming from the San show, uh, aspect
of, um, Wu, the Chinese marshal.

01:25:17.835 --> 01:25:21.495
It said judo without the that's like
throwing without the ground fighting.

01:25:21.555 --> 01:25:21.885
Right.

01:25:21.945 --> 01:25:24.885
And then I was coming into Jule
and the groundfighting so had all

01:25:24.885 --> 01:25:29.115
these, a type personality, policemen
ripping, trying to rip my head off.

01:25:29.175 --> 01:25:33.195
And then, so I grab a finger and
I'd bend it or whatever, trying to

01:25:33.195 --> 01:25:36.435
get myself out of an headlock or
something say, well, you can't do that.

01:25:37.035 --> 01:25:37.905
I said, well, what do you mean?

01:25:37.905 --> 01:25:38.445
I just did it.

01:25:38.445 --> 01:25:41.385
Mm-hmm . And I said,
no, you can't do that.

01:25:41.385 --> 01:25:42.465
It's against the rules.

01:25:42.525 --> 01:25:43.935
Oh, we have rules here.

01:25:44.235 --> 01:25:44.415
Got it.

01:25:44.415 --> 01:25:48.975
And then that's why I was sort of
disillusioned by, even though judo is a

01:25:48.975 --> 01:25:56.355
good, basic martial art, I was almost,
I was almost ready to quit judo yeah.

01:25:56.415 --> 01:26:01.125
At the police station
because of its rule bound.

01:26:01.925 --> 01:26:02.145
Mm.

01:26:02.625 --> 01:26:05.625
And then I was finding, I was
going to the police academy

01:26:05.625 --> 01:26:07.605
during the day, sometimes all day.

01:26:09.405 --> 01:26:13.605
And then I'd come to the judo class at
night with a Brian Chipper's judo class.

01:26:14.085 --> 01:26:18.045
And it's saying, this is what
we're doing in at the academy,

01:26:18.045 --> 01:26:19.065
just for the police that are here.

01:26:19.605 --> 01:26:19.635
Mm.

01:26:20.115 --> 01:26:25.995
And then when I was, uh, um, you know,
um, at the academy I going, this is

01:26:25.995 --> 01:26:28.305
what we're doing in the judo class.

01:26:28.365 --> 01:26:29.295
That would be good.

01:26:29.625 --> 01:26:29.955
Right.

01:26:30.045 --> 01:26:31.425
And then I'm going back and forth.

01:26:31.430 --> 01:26:33.375
I'm going, well, wait a minute.

01:26:33.975 --> 01:26:39.315
Why don't I just combine the, the essence
of judo, the practical stuff out of judo,

01:26:39.825 --> 01:26:44.325
take away all, all forms of traditionalism
and rules and all that stuff, anything

01:26:44.325 --> 01:26:46.605
to do with sports, strip it, bear.

01:26:46.845 --> 01:26:47.115
Yep.

01:26:48.135 --> 01:26:53.235
And so, and, and then combine it with
the, the control and arrest techniques.

01:26:54.255 --> 01:26:55.245
And then I went there.

01:26:55.515 --> 01:26:56.505
There's my martial art.

01:26:56.865 --> 01:26:57.345
There it is.

01:26:57.405 --> 01:26:58.665
I, I couldn't find it.

01:26:59.505 --> 01:27:03.705
and I I've got certain techniques
from different, uh, agencies, but

01:27:03.705 --> 01:27:06.585
there it is, we'll create a, a Toby.

01:27:06.585 --> 01:27:10.245
And I decided to create this new
martial art, call it police judo, and,

01:27:10.250 --> 01:27:13.395
um, spend a lot of time developing it.

01:27:13.455 --> 01:27:21.825
Um, and, um, so in essence, it, it becomes
a, um, a really good solid method of,

01:27:21.855 --> 01:27:23.715
uh, controlling and arresting people.

01:27:23.835 --> 01:27:25.125
Well, where can people get this book?

01:27:25.365 --> 01:27:28.575
Well, I think you just go
on Amazon, uh, CA yeah.

01:27:28.575 --> 01:27:30.945
Or Al arsenal books.com.

01:27:30.945 --> 01:27:34.005
There's a, a page I'm gonna
start writing a blog on that.

01:27:34.095 --> 01:27:37.155
Uh, Al arsenal books, plural.

01:27:37.455 --> 01:27:38.955
I'll, I'll put the links up in and yeah.

01:27:38.955 --> 01:27:39.555
Description for sure.

01:27:40.125 --> 01:27:42.855
And the description below hit
the like button hit the like

01:27:42.855 --> 01:27:43.155
button.

01:27:43.155 --> 01:27:43.725
There you go.

01:27:44.025 --> 01:27:44.355
Yeah.

01:27:44.355 --> 01:27:45.255
Don't forget to subscribe.

01:27:45.285 --> 01:27:45.465
Yeah,

01:27:45.465 --> 01:27:46.065
exactly.

01:27:46.485 --> 01:27:48.915
So, um, so it's been, uh, a.

01:27:50.370 --> 01:27:59.160
uh, interesting, uh, uh, journey
from say, starting in say 1986,

01:27:59.160 --> 01:28:02.580
even though I started my martial
arts training in, uh, 71.

01:28:03.000 --> 01:28:03.030
Mm.

01:28:03.090 --> 01:28:10.620
But, uh, it became more practical and I,
I, I sought out the more pro, uh, more, I

01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:15.300
start with the more practical methods of,
uh, getting, taking people into custody.

01:28:15.305 --> 01:28:17.560
And I, I dropped karate because.

01:28:19.295 --> 01:28:21.575
this wasn't working can, but
yeah, I can't break people.

01:28:21.755 --> 01:28:21.965
Yeah.

01:28:21.965 --> 01:28:27.695
You know, I, I, so I, I fell back
on some joint locking techniques I

01:28:27.695 --> 01:28:32.225
learned at, you know, jujitsu seminars,
for example, mm-hmm . And then, uh,

01:28:32.555 --> 01:28:36.995
I got into, like I say, the, the Wu,
the, the chink, the joint locking,

01:28:37.025 --> 01:28:39.575
and specifically that, which I.

01:28:40.990 --> 01:28:47.740
For master show yang, who was my
instructor, uh, and, um, and he, um,

01:28:48.610 --> 01:28:53.440
instilled in me and as with some other
instructors, uh, about the VA, the

01:28:53.440 --> 01:28:58.270
beauty of joint locking mm-hmm . And,
um, so I just refined those techniques

01:28:58.270 --> 01:29:02.800
and, and incorporated a bunch of
them into the control and arrest.

01:29:03.500 --> 01:29:06.800
Tactics that, uh, F fantastic that
the police were already doing.

01:29:06.800 --> 01:29:10.730
And, and it's a good, it's
been a good diffusion of, um,

01:29:10.760 --> 01:29:13.100
old and new, uh, techniques.

01:29:13.105 --> 01:29:13.250
Yeah.

01:29:13.255 --> 01:29:19.730
And, um, and, um, and like I say, the,
um, it really makes, if you read the book,

01:29:19.730 --> 01:29:24.860
it, it really makes it clear, um, the
importance of controlling somebody versus

01:29:24.890 --> 01:29:29.360
holding them in the difference between
sport techniques and street techniques.

01:29:29.450 --> 01:29:29.690
Right.

01:29:29.780 --> 01:29:34.160
And, you know, standing on your, staying
on your feet versus going to the ground,

01:29:34.190 --> 01:29:37.570
these are all really, really basic things.

01:29:38.215 --> 01:29:43.795
That I'm still shocked that police
trainers don't seem to appreciate

01:29:43.855 --> 01:29:46.865
they don't you think they figured
out pretty quick when they go to

01:29:46.865 --> 01:29:47.755
the street, they just jump on.

01:29:47.755 --> 01:29:53.215
They just follow their, their martial
arts training, blindly almost, you

01:29:53.215 --> 01:29:55.765
know, they, um, he's the odd guy.

01:29:55.765 --> 01:29:59.935
He's, you know, he's trained in
jujitsu, but he get, they get it.

01:29:59.935 --> 01:30:01.585
You talk to 'em two minutes, they get it.

01:30:01.615 --> 01:30:01.675
Yeah.

01:30:01.885 --> 01:30:05.905
But they just don't, haven't had a
much opportunity to break out of it.

01:30:05.905 --> 01:30:06.835
So they, well it's

01:30:06.835 --> 01:30:10.885
that linear or rigidity of thought
that a lot of people can get into,

01:30:10.945 --> 01:30:12.445
particularly in law enforcement.

01:30:12.445 --> 01:30:12.655
If

01:30:12.655 --> 01:30:15.535
there's a imagine for me, I was
third degree, black belt and

01:30:15.535 --> 01:30:17.365
karate, and I come into a ch club.

01:30:17.605 --> 01:30:19.195
I hated being on the ground.

01:30:19.255 --> 01:30:19.495
Yeah.

01:30:19.495 --> 01:30:20.485
It was so foreign to me.

01:30:20.635 --> 01:30:23.815
I was just strictly stand up guy mm.

01:30:24.325 --> 01:30:26.395
And punching and kicking.

01:30:26.515 --> 01:30:30.655
And it was horrible and getting
close to sweaty men and.

01:30:31.515 --> 01:30:35.935
And they're GE and, oh, I, it just
drove me nuts, but it was because I was

01:30:35.935 --> 01:30:40.255
partnering with Doby and he'd dragged
me to these, uh, these judo classes.

01:30:40.345 --> 01:30:40.435
Yeah.

01:30:40.495 --> 01:30:41.245
So I stuck with it.

01:30:41.245 --> 01:30:46.045
And then I came to appreciate, uh,
the beauty of judo in terms of, um,

01:30:46.315 --> 01:30:51.745
being able to manipulate the human
body mm-hmm , um, to get them on the

01:30:51.745 --> 01:30:54.805
ground and, and, uh, and control them.

01:30:55.315 --> 01:30:59.845
And then, but like I say, I was turned
off by the, um, techniques that were

01:30:59.845 --> 01:31:05.215
impractical for street use, but then,
you know, please judo resolved that

01:31:05.215 --> 01:31:06.985
cuz we just dumped those techniques.

01:31:07.345 --> 01:31:10.225
Impractical techniques took
the good stuff out of judo.

01:31:10.225 --> 01:31:14.995
So it's like a, uh, I was a little
bit reluctant about calling this

01:31:14.995 --> 01:31:18.535
Toby suggestion, calling it, police,
judo, the new martial art mm-hmm  you

01:31:18.535 --> 01:31:22.765
know, it would've been, I would
better preferred something defend do

01:31:22.765 --> 01:31:27.295
or something, you know, , you know,
so that there's no preconception.

01:31:28.560 --> 01:31:32.790
Of you hear police judo and police go,
oh, you're running around a pajamas.

01:31:33.420 --> 01:31:35.460
No shit, no, it's it's gentle way.

01:31:35.460 --> 01:31:35.910
Right?

01:31:35.910 --> 01:31:36.060
Yeah.

01:31:36.060 --> 01:31:38.820
Got a gentle way and all this
stuff, and they think of this, it's

01:31:38.820 --> 01:31:40.500
a sport, it's an Olympic sport.

01:31:41.670 --> 01:31:44.910
And you knows so far from
that people would, yeah.

01:31:44.910 --> 01:31:49.410
People would say, oh, it's why do I wanna
learn a sport type thing, even though

01:31:49.860 --> 01:31:52.050
presumed you JSU was a sport, but sure.

01:31:52.290 --> 01:31:53.450
But I don't know.

01:31:53.450 --> 01:31:55.380
They, I just, I thought it would.

01:31:56.880 --> 01:32:01.380
would turn people police off, but
then I thought, oh, on then, on

01:32:01.380 --> 01:32:04.380
the other hand, I thought, well,
how will the judo community react?

01:32:04.380 --> 01:32:04.560
Right?

01:32:04.560 --> 01:32:06.450
There's only one form of judo.

01:32:06.455 --> 01:32:10.890
And now they're, we're saying we're
appropriating the name a little bit.

01:32:11.460 --> 01:32:12.180
Police judo.

01:32:12.185 --> 01:32:17.100
Well, uh, professor conno, when
he invented judo in back in 18 83,

01:32:17.100 --> 01:32:21.390
82, 83, he turned us back in Japan.

01:32:21.390 --> 01:32:23.730
There was hundreds of styles of jujitsu.

01:32:24.240 --> 01:32:25.920
That's a precursor to jujitsu.

01:32:26.430 --> 01:32:30.270
And, uh, he turned us back in all those
and saying, no, I wanna create a, I

01:32:30.270 --> 01:32:37.020
wanna create something that, uh, he was
a high school teacher and, uh, and he,

01:32:37.860 --> 01:32:43.020
he wanted to teach, um, we, we didn't
even call it a sport back in those.

01:32:43.020 --> 01:32:45.360
He wanted to teach something
that school kids could learn.

01:32:45.750 --> 01:32:45.780
Mm.

01:32:45.810 --> 01:32:49.290
And his essence was to
create a better citizen.

01:32:49.950 --> 01:32:53.910
Mm, make them a be it's polishing
the mirror to make a better person.

01:32:53.910 --> 01:32:58.650
You can see yourself more clearly
and, and be, be a decent human being.

01:32:58.710 --> 01:33:04.560
Well, if, uh, professor conno were
alive today, he's saying, well, then

01:33:04.565 --> 01:33:09.480
the judo people, if they had said,
oh, professor, they, uh, they've, you

01:33:09.480 --> 01:33:11.970
know, they've, um, bastardized judo.

01:33:13.320 --> 01:33:16.110
Well, yeah, what'd they do, uh,
they're trying to make better police

01:33:16.110 --> 01:33:18.750
officers using superior technique.

01:33:18.750 --> 01:33:23.220
And, uh, and part of their grading,
uh, concept is that they have to

01:33:23.220 --> 01:33:28.800
do, uh, proven history of, uh,
volunteerism and, uh, and yeah.

01:33:29.665 --> 01:33:35.695
Yeah, they're trying not to hurt people
and they're trying to be, you know, yes.

01:33:36.085 --> 01:33:36.565
Familiar.

01:33:36.625 --> 01:33:37.345
What's your point?

01:33:37.375 --> 01:33:37.735
Yeah.

01:33:37.735 --> 01:33:38.095
Sounds.

01:33:38.185 --> 01:33:38.725
Sounds good.

01:33:38.845 --> 01:33:40.795
So he would be clapping
if you were alive today.

01:33:40.795 --> 01:33:45.415
I guarantee cuz I know there's I know,
uh, four eighth degree block belts.

01:33:45.445 --> 01:33:49.225
That's about as high up as you
can get, you might see a ninth

01:33:49.225 --> 01:33:54.115
down floating around, but uh, but
so I know four personally that

01:33:54.115 --> 01:33:55.975
love the concept of police judo.

01:33:55.980 --> 01:34:00.145
They loved how we've used and they're
proud that the word judo is in

01:34:00.150 --> 01:34:01.765
our new martial art police, judo.

01:34:02.005 --> 01:34:05.815
They actually appreciate because they
can say, ah, look at, um, police are

01:34:05.815 --> 01:34:08.875
using our, the validates it basics.

01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:09.115
Yeah.

01:34:09.355 --> 01:34:09.655
Yeah.

01:34:09.655 --> 01:34:12.925
And these eighth degree black
belts, they they're interested in.

01:34:13.165 --> 01:34:15.565
They're gonna buy this, but they
they're interested in this book.

01:34:15.655 --> 01:34:15.955
Right.

01:34:16.135 --> 01:34:20.575
Because they people often come to
them saying, well, we wanna learn

01:34:20.575 --> 01:34:24.025
something that's proc like self defense.

01:34:24.115 --> 01:34:29.175
Mm-hmm .  because it's all stor
uh, the heavy duty people are all,

01:34:29.235 --> 01:34:31.815
um, immersed in sports aspect.

01:34:31.935 --> 01:34:35.595
Mm-hmm  and then somebody says,
oh, we want to learn the, the

01:34:35.595 --> 01:34:37.875
street applications of this stuff.

01:34:37.880 --> 01:34:41.205
Mm-hmm . And the little week
on that, and then going, well,

01:34:41.210 --> 01:34:42.615
look at this  it's right here.

01:34:43.035 --> 01:34:45.675
They've, they've taken the street
out, they've taken the basics

01:34:45.675 --> 01:34:48.735
of judo and they've made it into
the street applications, which

01:34:48.735 --> 01:34:49.905
reminds me of another story.

01:34:51.105 --> 01:34:54.525
Again, I was mining mail
business in, uh, Barta.

01:34:55.395 --> 01:35:00.975
And, uh, I sent Toby, uh, an
email saying, I, I just, before I

01:35:00.975 --> 01:35:04.305
left, I, I read, um, an article.

01:35:04.305 --> 01:35:08.985
I wish I had saved it in a newspaper
about a fifth degree black belt in karate.

01:35:08.985 --> 01:35:13.275
He was pushing his daughter in a
stroller, went into a bank and realized

01:35:13.280 --> 01:35:14.865
that there's a bank robbery going down.

01:35:15.195 --> 01:35:15.285
Mm.

01:35:15.945 --> 01:35:21.675
So he grabbed the guy at the teller in
a headlock, and he said in an interview

01:35:21.675 --> 01:35:28.590
afterwards, he said,  if the guy, if
the second guy hadn't a pepper sprayed

01:35:28.590 --> 01:35:32.700
me, I would've beat the shit out of all,
three of them, the last guy had a gun.

01:35:32.940 --> 01:35:33.330
Mm.

01:35:34.410 --> 01:35:39.240
And rather than being contr and saying,
oh my God, I put my daughter in danger.

01:35:39.240 --> 01:35:40.620
Anybody else in the bank in danger?

01:35:40.620 --> 01:35:41.640
I got into something.

01:35:41.910 --> 01:35:43.590
I didn't see the big picture.

01:35:43.620 --> 01:35:45.600
Uh, I didn't know what I was doing.

01:35:45.870 --> 01:35:49.230
Why, why, why would I have
180 pound anchor in my arm?

01:35:49.235 --> 01:35:51.540
Mm-hmm  and I, I didn't know how
to defend against the pepper spray.

01:35:51.540 --> 01:35:54.990
And I didn't see the third guy or,
you know, it's like, God, I'm glad.

01:35:54.995 --> 01:35:56.400
I'm so glad things worked out.

01:35:56.490 --> 01:35:59.610
But he was, he was saying it
would beat the shit out of

01:35:59.615 --> 01:36:00.840
all three of them that, that.

01:36:01.815 --> 01:36:03.075
Things being a little differently.

01:36:03.105 --> 01:36:06.945
Mm-hmm  oh, like this,
uh, contestant number one.

01:36:06.945 --> 01:36:07.635
Are you ready?

01:36:07.665 --> 01:36:08.685
Contestant, number two.

01:36:08.685 --> 01:36:09.135
Are you ready?

01:36:09.165 --> 01:36:10.005
Contestant, number three.

01:36:10.005 --> 01:36:10.485
Are you ready?

01:36:10.725 --> 01:36:11.385
Mm-hmm  head to me.

01:36:11.805 --> 01:36:11.925
Okay.

01:36:11.925 --> 01:36:12.405
Let's fight.

01:36:12.675 --> 01:36:14.955
Mm-hmm  he would've beat the
shit out of all three of them.

01:36:15.045 --> 01:36:16.335
I'm positive.

01:36:16.335 --> 01:36:16.575
Sure.

01:36:16.575 --> 01:36:21.555
If no gun, no pepper spray, maybe,
you know, but unfortunately the

01:36:21.555 --> 01:36:24.465
bank robbery, wasn't a sanctioned
event, a sporting event.

01:36:24.945 --> 01:36:32.685
And, and I thought what an idiot, rather
than being contr, you know, and I think

01:36:32.715 --> 01:36:35.925
that guy needs to be street proofed.

01:36:36.255 --> 01:36:38.775
He's confusing sport in street.

01:36:38.780 --> 01:36:41.115
Mm-hmm , which is a, a deadly air to.

01:36:42.465 --> 01:36:44.474
So I, I typed to Toby.

01:36:44.480 --> 01:36:47.384
I said, oh, we should do, uh,
we should put on a course of

01:36:47.384 --> 01:36:48.644
street proofing your martial art.

01:36:48.705 --> 01:36:50.625
It doesn't matter what it is, come to us.

01:36:51.045 --> 01:36:55.755
Mm-hmm . And, um, we have the expertise in
using force in terms of actually applying

01:36:55.755 --> 01:37:01.634
it about knowing the law, yada yada, and
then three weeks later, uh, Joel Johnston.

01:37:01.985 --> 01:37:03.045
He is a retired Sergeant.

01:37:03.049 --> 01:37:03.165
Yeah.

01:37:03.264 --> 01:37:05.745
Uh, yeah, so he was a use of force expert.

01:37:05.795 --> 01:37:06.085
Yeah.

01:37:06.465 --> 01:37:07.035
Still is.

01:37:07.304 --> 01:37:13.065
Uh, and uh, he said, oh, I know
a fellow from, um, uh, this

01:37:13.065 --> 01:37:15.195
organization and karate organization.

01:37:15.795 --> 01:37:21.795
And, uh, they're looking to, to
teach us, to teach them self-defense

01:37:21.795 --> 01:37:26.505
techniques for, because their
instructors are teaching self-defense

01:37:26.509 --> 01:37:30.615
for women, but none of the instructors,
these are fifth downs, by the way.

01:37:30.724 --> 01:37:31.365
Mm-hmm  and.

01:37:32.009 --> 01:37:33.780
None of 'em have been in a street fight.

01:37:34.740 --> 01:37:38.790
And so I'm not sure if they're
teaching them what's practical

01:37:38.790 --> 01:37:39.780
or what's effective, right.

01:37:39.780 --> 01:37:40.200
Or whatever.

01:37:40.200 --> 01:37:42.210
And I went good for them for coming.

01:37:42.240 --> 01:37:43.049
Yeah, exactly.

01:37:43.049 --> 01:37:43.290
Yeah.

01:37:43.295 --> 01:37:43.920
For seeing that.

01:37:43.920 --> 01:37:45.389
And I said, well, no, we're not.

01:37:45.839 --> 01:37:48.389
I, I said, I don't think we
should be teaching these guys.

01:37:48.929 --> 01:37:53.250
Oh, what to do, because they're
gonna Ize whatever we teach them

01:37:53.250 --> 01:37:57.420
and they should, we should, they
should probably, if they're training.

01:37:57.840 --> 01:37:58.470
A certain way.

01:37:58.470 --> 01:38:02.910
They should probably, uh, fall on
their strong points rather than trying

01:38:02.910 --> 01:38:07.020
to learn ground fighting or throwing
mm-hmm , uh, might be a bit much.

01:38:07.020 --> 01:38:10.650
So maybe there's things just
simple things they can do, like

01:38:10.650 --> 01:38:12.600
don't kick to bed cuz right.

01:38:12.600 --> 01:38:13.380
You're off balance.

01:38:13.590 --> 01:38:17.340
Second go, the leg leg, your leg can
get grabbed, you know, um, instead of,

01:38:17.400 --> 01:38:21.960
uh, you know, punching to the head, the
closed fists, Palm heel strike mm-hmm

01:38:21.960 --> 01:38:23.400
so you don't break your knuckles.

01:38:23.730 --> 01:38:23.790
Yeah.

01:38:23.850 --> 01:38:27.800
You know, you know, the
base hit the soft yeah.

01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:30.210
Hard, hard parts of your body,
the soft parts of their body,

01:38:30.270 --> 01:38:35.400
this awareness, um, which is 90%
of the, um, self defense game.

01:38:35.820 --> 01:38:43.395
So, um, so he said, okay, so no,
we, we, uh, uh,  so he, the head of

01:38:43.395 --> 01:38:48.015
the organization put it to the, uh,
all the karate schools, different

01:38:48.015 --> 01:38:50.265
styles and saying, we wanna do this.

01:38:50.265 --> 01:38:55.695
And, uh, they got their nose outta joint,
but police judo was gonna teach us how

01:38:55.695 --> 01:39:03.285
to sort of, you know, fight to say, you
know, so, and then there's like some

01:39:03.345 --> 01:39:05.025
pushback because they were getting.

01:39:06.090 --> 01:39:08.490
Money from the go government agencies.

01:39:08.490 --> 01:39:08.580
Right.

01:39:08.580 --> 01:39:11.220
So they had to put it into
open tender so that they're

01:39:11.220 --> 01:39:12.690
not just hiring their friends.

01:39:12.750 --> 01:39:12.960
Right.

01:39:13.830 --> 01:39:14.400
So they did.

01:39:14.460 --> 01:39:19.470
I said, I said, if you find the me
Toby Hinton and Joel Johnson, if you

01:39:19.470 --> 01:39:23.970
find somebody who's like Toby and I
started police, judo, new martial art,

01:39:24.000 --> 01:39:28.500
we both have, uh, me Joel and Toby,
probably over 70, 80 years of policing

01:39:28.500 --> 01:39:30.990
experience, probably over 125 years.

01:39:31.470 --> 01:39:34.980
Um, I got 50 years of martial
arts experience alone, like

01:39:35.040 --> 01:39:36.840
over a hundred years of, uh, St.

01:39:36.840 --> 01:39:38.010
Martial arts background.

01:39:38.190 --> 01:39:40.560
Joel's an expert in use of force.

01:39:40.680 --> 01:39:42.630
I mean, try and find this.

01:39:42.960 --> 01:39:43.770
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:39:43.770 --> 01:39:47.730
And I was a P weapons,
weapons, um, expert.

01:39:47.730 --> 01:39:52.335
And I said, if you can find,
and we've been in, um, Scores

01:39:52.394 --> 01:39:53.955
of street altercations.

01:39:54.105 --> 01:39:58.005
If you can find somebody with those
qualifications, you hire them.

01:39:58.095 --> 01:39:59.025
And he used to apologize.

01:39:59.025 --> 01:39:59.715
Oh, I'm sorry.

01:39:59.715 --> 01:40:04.065
I just know I gotta, I just gotta,
you know, couch out to these guys.

01:40:04.155 --> 01:40:11.265
Um, and, uh, so anyways, they had 10, you
know, Heidi competent martial artists,

01:40:11.925 --> 01:40:13.724
um, come in for their interviews.

01:40:14.565 --> 01:40:16.665
I can do this, I can do this.

01:40:16.665 --> 01:40:17.805
It's my qualifications.

01:40:17.809 --> 01:40:22.065
And I've taught self defense for women
and other things and all this stuff.

01:40:22.065 --> 01:40:25.755
And I got trained provincial
champions or Canadian champions

01:40:25.755 --> 01:40:27.255
or whatever they do all this.

01:40:27.615 --> 01:40:31.695
And they asked them all one question,
you know what that question was?

01:40:31.724 --> 01:40:33.165
Have you ever been in
a fight that's right.

01:40:33.375 --> 01:40:34.245
Ever been in a fight.

01:40:34.245 --> 01:40:37.095
And he said, all, all 10 of 'em said no.

01:40:38.025 --> 01:40:39.585
So we got the contract.

01:40:39.585 --> 01:40:40.265
There you go.

01:40:41.925 --> 01:40:46.365
but you know, but those 10
who came in for the interview.

01:40:46.905 --> 01:40:49.665
They need to be street proofed
mm-hmm  cause they don't get it.

01:40:49.995 --> 01:40:53.174
Mm-hmm they're saying I've
got, I've watched videos.

01:40:53.174 --> 01:40:58.184
I've been in the dojo and I've
done martial arts techniques.

01:40:58.544 --> 01:41:04.424
Mm-hmm  and um, yeah, I'm pretty
good at it and going, yeah, but how

01:41:04.424 --> 01:41:06.945
about when the guy's biting you and
there you're doing neck extra and the

01:41:06.945 --> 01:41:09.644
guy bites you in the arm or number
two, guy's kicking you in the head

01:41:10.065 --> 01:41:12.794
and uh, you're putting neck strain.

01:41:12.799 --> 01:41:15.405
He's pulling out a knife and
stabbing you in the guts.

01:41:15.584 --> 01:41:15.615
Mm.

01:41:15.615 --> 01:41:16.905
You know, it's like, how's it working out?

01:41:16.905 --> 01:41:17.054
Yeah.

01:41:17.054 --> 01:41:18.165
How's that working for you?

01:41:18.169 --> 01:41:19.634
Mm-hmm  well, you didn't
even know about that.

01:41:19.634 --> 01:41:22.485
So you're gonna teach people
how to fail on the street.

01:41:22.544 --> 01:41:27.584
I mean, Street's got, it's got no rules,
you know, lack of morality and ethics.

01:41:27.584 --> 01:41:30.974
And uh, so anyways, those
guys need to be street proof.

01:41:31.004 --> 01:41:31.065
Yeah.

01:41:31.065 --> 01:41:31.815
Cuz they're dangerous.

01:41:31.815 --> 01:41:34.424
They're telling they're teaching stuff.

01:41:34.665 --> 01:41:37.575
That's dojo based, you know,
rather than street based.

01:41:37.575 --> 01:41:37.934
And there's a

01:41:37.934 --> 01:41:38.955
lot of that out there.

01:41:39.254 --> 01:41:39.705
There really

01:41:39.705 --> 01:41:39.945
is.

01:41:39.945 --> 01:41:40.514
Oh yeah.

01:41:40.514 --> 01:41:40.844
Well you.

01:41:41.195 --> 01:41:42.075
You've seen it yourself.

01:41:42.165 --> 01:41:42.315
Sure.

01:41:42.315 --> 01:41:45.825
I mean, you all your viewers too, have
probably seen guys teaching gun defenses

01:41:45.825 --> 01:41:51.195
and knife defenses and, and they're
just so bad and, or handcuffing even,

01:41:51.195 --> 01:41:53.355
I'm just going, scratching your head.

01:41:53.355 --> 01:41:54.135
How can they do that?

01:41:54.645 --> 01:41:54.975
Yeah.

01:41:54.975 --> 01:41:57.975
I was watching one video and
the guy was putting on a pair

01:41:57.975 --> 01:41:59.595
of handcuffs, honest to God.

01:41:59.595 --> 01:42:02.205
He, I think he had 'em
both on, in a second.

01:42:02.835 --> 01:42:03.675
One second.

01:42:05.475 --> 01:42:08.355
It was like, like that I go, holy crap.

01:42:08.775 --> 01:42:11.715
But I just going what a useless skill.

01:42:12.195 --> 01:42:15.045
And I can tell you that the
guy who's doing that without,

01:42:15.315 --> 01:42:16.665
I didn't know his background.

01:42:16.725 --> 01:42:19.335
Mm-hmm  he, he cannot be a police officer.

01:42:19.785 --> 01:42:24.975
No officer would spend any amount
of time doing something that's,

01:42:25.005 --> 01:42:30.675
uh, totally useless in, in for
realistic and practical purposes.

01:42:30.845 --> 01:42:31.135
Yeah.

01:42:31.620 --> 01:42:33.630
So you had, you have your hands exactly.

01:42:33.630 --> 01:42:35.460
Spaced this much apart.

01:42:35.460 --> 01:42:36.840
You had to have I bed.

01:42:37.019 --> 01:42:37.410
Yeah.

01:42:37.410 --> 01:42:43.679
And you have that it's like, it
was like, it was totally a useless

01:42:43.679 --> 01:42:46.410
skill  but it was, it was impressive.

01:42:46.415 --> 01:42:47.280
Impressive was all good out.

01:42:47.280 --> 01:42:49.710
But it saw the guy saying, no,
I'm not putting my hand behind

01:42:49.710 --> 01:42:50.849
your back, raises his hands up.

01:42:50.849 --> 01:42:51.360
Then what?

01:42:51.780 --> 01:42:51.870
Right.

01:42:51.870 --> 01:42:55.650
That your technique is, is,
is like bending over at the

01:42:55.655 --> 01:42:56.790
waist and doing all this stuff.

01:42:57.330 --> 01:42:59.969
If he's doing that, then getting
him to put the handcuffs on himself.

01:42:59.969 --> 01:43:03.360
So it's like, uh, here's, here's
a useless skill that no one will

01:43:03.599 --> 01:43:06.030
ever use and, uh, practice it.

01:43:06.990 --> 01:43:07.440
It's dumb.

01:43:07.650 --> 01:43:10.410
Well, I'm looking at the time here
and I wanna make sure that we're

01:43:10.410 --> 01:43:14.580
um, uh, so got the listeners from

01:43:14.670 --> 01:43:16.290
eight or sure they have nodded off.

01:43:16.320 --> 01:43:19.500
Uh  um, third Ramo Coke into it.

01:43:19.559 --> 01:43:20.099
There you go.

01:43:21.120 --> 01:43:24.780
um, is there anything else we should
be covering before we wrap it up?

01:43:26.160 --> 01:43:26.639
Oh, geez.

01:43:26.639 --> 01:43:29.670
Uh, gonna have to have
me back for a few more.

01:43:29.670 --> 01:43:33.300
Um, Podcast, because I get,
I get so much to talk about.

01:43:33.300 --> 01:43:34.290
I, I, there's some stories I

01:43:34.290 --> 01:43:38.190
wanna ask you about, I told you at
the, at the get out that I asked

01:43:38.190 --> 01:43:41.340
around a little bit, if anyone had any
stories and they're like Al arsenal.

01:43:41.340 --> 01:43:41.550
Yeah.

01:43:41.550 --> 01:43:42.600
I got some Al stories.

01:43:42.930 --> 01:43:43.830
It's like, okay, let's hear 'em.

01:43:44.460 --> 01:43:45.599
And everyone went quiet.

01:43:45.599 --> 01:43:46.019
So you have

01:43:46.019 --> 01:43:49.620
some friends said I'll track 'em down
to I'll know I'll track 'em down and,

01:43:49.620 --> 01:43:50.950
and they know you'll track 'em down.

01:43:51.070 --> 01:43:54.900
I can kill 'em with an eyelash or, uh,
I know more ways to kill 'em than they

01:43:54.900 --> 01:43:56.880
know how to die or I'll hit 'em so hard.

01:43:56.884 --> 01:44:00.110
They'll be the first person in heaven,
in a wheelchair type of stuff, you know

01:44:00.889 --> 01:44:02.519
but, uh, yeah, I know I'm slowing down.

01:44:02.519 --> 01:44:03.900
They'll probably catch me when I'm 80.

01:44:03.905 --> 01:44:07.469
They'll stick there, stick, stick
my cane through my wheelchair,

01:44:07.469 --> 01:44:08.849
spokes have their way with me.

01:44:08.849 --> 01:44:15.450
But, uh, but I'm uh, uh, yeah, I've,
uh, , I've got a bit of a reputation.

01:44:15.480 --> 01:44:19.530
Uh, if you dig down deep enough,
you know, we've been Toby and I

01:44:19.535 --> 01:44:24.750
invariably been called renegades or
cowboy cops and, uh, the, uh, and

01:44:24.750 --> 01:44:28.170
the, um, journalists is all happy
and that they screwed us around them.

01:44:28.174 --> 01:44:30.630
We're Toby and I are highfiving
each other, you know, it's

01:44:30.634 --> 01:44:31.799
like, well, this is good.

01:44:32.429 --> 01:44:36.179
we think they're ruining our, our
careers, but they, they realize

01:44:36.179 --> 01:44:37.679
that we enjoy the notoriety.

01:44:37.740 --> 01:44:38.130
Sure.

01:44:38.134 --> 01:44:40.620
And, uh, yeah, so we, we
stepped outta the box.

01:44:40.620 --> 01:44:45.720
We were thinking, um, You know, um,
thinking ahead thinking differently.

01:44:45.720 --> 01:44:50.040
And, uh, it hasn't been an easy road,
like say having a previous mayor

01:44:50.040 --> 01:44:51.750
wanting us, uh, both fired right.

01:44:51.750 --> 01:44:52.590
And all stuff.

01:44:52.590 --> 01:44:59.370
So we've, we've done a lot of innovative,
um, things in terms of educating, uh,

01:44:59.370 --> 01:45:04.410
youth through odd squad and, and, uh,
educating police through police judo.

01:45:04.410 --> 01:45:10.980
And, um, it's been a, um, a bit of
a struggle and it hasn't been easy

01:45:10.980 --> 01:45:15.390
all the time, but, uh, I think that,
uh, after odd squad, like say we just

01:45:15.394 --> 01:45:18.210
finished our 25th year anniversary gala.

01:45:18.690 --> 01:45:22.030
And so obviously we're doing something
right there and totally worth it.

01:45:22.030 --> 01:45:28.980
And police judo is, um, you know,
2010 plus, uh, uh, getting, getting in

01:45:28.980 --> 01:45:31.170
there and the roots go back decades.

01:45:31.815 --> 01:45:33.345
absolutely with it.

01:45:33.405 --> 01:45:37.515
Uh, so we, we want to be
doing some things, uh, right.

01:45:37.515 --> 01:45:42.525
And, um, yeah, so it's, uh,
I, I got a million stories.

01:45:42.525 --> 01:45:46.875
I, you know, I've been around the world
a few times and yes, you have around the

01:45:46.875 --> 01:45:47.265
block

01:45:47.265 --> 01:45:47.805
for sure.

01:45:48.165 --> 01:45:49.885
Uh, I'd love to dig into those as well.

01:45:50.115 --> 01:45:50.175
Yeah.

01:45:50.205 --> 01:45:57.365
I, I really, really appreciate you coming
on to share those stories and the, the

01:45:57.525 --> 01:46:01.215
comprehensive joint locking techniques
and the book that you've put out and it's,

01:46:01.220 --> 01:46:04.665
uh, I'm not all the way through it, but
I've gone through a good portion of it.

01:46:04.815 --> 01:46:06.434
Uh, very well worth it.

01:46:06.434 --> 01:46:09.825
Anybody out there that's
on the fence, uh, get it.

01:46:09.915 --> 01:46:12.795
It's worth the money there's
techniques in there that will

01:46:12.795 --> 01:46:15.735
help you out whether you're law
enforcement or not law enforcement.

01:46:16.065 --> 01:46:18.315
Uh, definitely go pick this book up.

01:46:18.375 --> 01:46:19.005
Oh, appreciate it.

01:46:19.215 --> 01:46:19.515
Yeah.

01:46:19.635 --> 01:46:19.815
Thank

01:46:19.815 --> 01:46:19.965
you.

01:46:20.005 --> 01:46:20.885
Thanks for having me here.

01:46:20.894 --> 01:46:22.035
Thanks so much for being on the social.