[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Oh, Stephen, season seven.

[00:00:18] Dan: Indeed, indeed, we're back. After a little, little break over the winter for you and over the summer for, um, we are getting stuck into this up to, up to the end of the year, so yeah, it's exciting. Exciting. We've got, we've actually got some, another batch of great Guest lined up. It's gonna be a cracker.

[00:00:36] Pia: Yeah, I know I have, it's got got some great people really looking forward to, to meeting them actually. And we're in quite an extraordinary, it's been a quite an interesting summer, really. You know, we've, we've got a former US president who's, who's now been charged for criminal crisis then,

[00:00:55] Dan: Yes.

[00:00:56] Pia: Yeah, paces and then, um, and then finally after refusing to quit and his mother going on a hunger strike, the Spanish FIFA president who, who gave a non-consensual kiss at the World Cup has finally resigned.

[00:01:12] Dan: About time. Yeah. So, yeah, having taken, just dominated the news cycle when it should have been on women's football and the amazing, amazing World's World Cup. Yeah. He's done incredible damage in so many ways, but gone, fortunately.

[00:01:25] Pia: And then elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg are going to be sparring one another in a cage fight because of course, that's really important news.

[00:01:32] Dan: Don't get us started here. We've been growling about on the podcast before

[00:01:36] Pia: And then we've got a another referendum, which are not experiences that bring countries together. We both have been, been part of that one. Um, and we've got something called The Voice, which is gonna be launched in October in Australia regarding, um, indigenous representation in the government. So that's quite a big time in in history for us,

[00:01:59] Dan: it's, I've been following this a little bit, but is that on the ground? Is that, is that proving divisive, like these things soften out or how's it going?

[00:02:08] Pia: I, I mean, it depends how much you read the press and how much you're looking at it, but if you ignore that and you have normal conversations with people, I think, I think people are quite sensible. It, it's a much more complex situation. It, and it, and when you give a simple yes or no, it's quite reductionist and it's not, it's, it's, it, there's a, there's, there's a lot of elements to really consider, but I'm hoping that everyone will go to, to the referendum with a, with a conscience and a higher intent of, of trying to do the best thing. 

[00:02:40] Dan: And yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's so interesting. I'm hoping when we go through this, talking about how humans connect to get things done, the referendum seems to be, as you say, a terrible instrument. I mean, we, you so often actually end up with a, an outcome that no one wants. You know, it's, it's weird though. It boiled. It's, yeah, it's a, it's a strange old business. It seems like such a logical and just a brilliant sort of cut and dried form of democracy, but it's, it's, it's sort of the worst and causes division and, and actually dissatisfaction. So, yeah, it's crazy. So I hope that goes well for Australia.

[00:03:12] Pia: So that's, and then, and then finally, gosh, it was a pretty catastrophic. Weather situation. We had some terrible weather across the summer. Wildfires and floods and

[00:03:23] Dan: Right across the world. Fires in Canada, for goodness sake.

[00:03:27] Pia: So that's that, there's a lot of that. And then we go into the sort of the fall as it is in the northern hemisphere into the autumn and the spring down here. But, you know, growth is forecast to drop. Um, and there's sort of quite a pronounced slow down is predicted for advanced economies. So, ooh, we, we've, we've got quite a lot of.uncertainty. 

[00:03:54] Dan: Yeah. And this seems to filter into all the teams that we work with, don't they? You can feel this. People on edge. I would. I would say, yeah. Just trying to figure things out. Still. We haven't settled again.

[00:04:06] Pia: Yeah, unknown, uncertainty, lots of change. Um, a tremendous human resilience to, to work, work their way through it, you know, and it, but, um, it's prolonged. It, it's, it's a prolonged thing.

[00:04:20] Dan: Yeah. And so I hope today's episode is going to give people a little. It's a shorty, but a goodie we hope, where we're gonna review season six and see what we can take forward to season, you know, as we into the coming months and what we could, we could learn from that season. But of course we've um, yeah, trying to inspire people to dig deep into that collective d n a and be extraordinary together. And we've taken a slightly different approach this time Pia, haven't we, to our.

[00:04:46] Dan: Uh, we, we, uh, we tend to review the shows and talk about it. What we did this time was because one of the things we're working on is putting AI into the Squadify platform. And, um, part of that has been to, so basically get the AI to trawl all the We Not Me episodes, and serve them up for teams who little pieces of, of the content of our guests, relevant content. So if someone's having an issue with clarity, they'll be served something up by one of our guests over the last 7, 6, 6 seasons that's gonna really help them. So we actually use that same technology to summarize the season. It was really interesting, wasn't it?

[00:05:24] Pia: Amazing. So, and this was, um, Benjamin Dehant;s comment. He said, you've gotta be very conscious about the way that you use AI. So we did. So we've been able to classify, all the content from season six and create three themes. So we're gonna look at those. One is a value of disagreement and diverse perspectives. The second one was around empowerment and autonomy. And the third one was around community and shared goals. So, really well, really interesting way of cutting the content as we look, as we looked at that. So let, let's, let's dive into what that is.

[00:06:09] Dan: cause I think one of the things that's exciting about a AI that when I, when I wanna be in my reading, is that they, that AI will see things in ways that we haven't seen them before, you know, an AI basically reinvented chess because we just hadn't seen it. Now, I'm not saying we've done anything of that scale, but you know, the, these three was a really great way to cut the thing.

[00:06:27] Dan: So, um, that first one, value of disagreement and, uh, taking diverse perspectives. We had a couple of episodes that covered this, didn't we? I, I'm, I'm springing. The one springing to mind is Matthew Bellringer in the, the last episode. Agree, how to disagree, which was, which was just really powerful. I think a very popular episode as well.

[00:06:45] Pia: He really left us with that whole idea. We've become very reductionist in the way that we see things. You know, this, this ability to make it a simple case when they're quite complex challenges. And, and he really encouraged us to be more open, to be inquiring, use different perspectives, to really understand a more broader view of things. And he said to really watch out for assumptions of being right. You know, because, you know, sometimes we can feel threatened, but

[00:07:18] Dan: Yeah. It's quite, it was surprising thought that around that sort of the brain really seeing these things as a threat, it's interest, it explains a lot of that sort of behavior, doesn't it? Around status. And yes, he said no one has a monopoly on the truth, which is, I, I think this, this is a great place to start, 'cause I think any team, any team leader or team member could think about that as a way, okay, how do I, how do I bring in more perspectives here? How do I let my own perspective go and put that in the mix? And, and sort of try to let go of that. Ability to be right.

[00:07:50] Dan: I think the other one that plays into that was Richard Clayton again was late in the season. I've just found that a fascinating episode talking about ironic leadership and how equally sort of people take different approaches to deal with the absurdity of what they're having to deal with, sometimes. You know, it's organizations can be a bit strange and I thought it was a fascinating piece of work that he'd done on leaders who actually approach that in a different way. And the power of the rise smile. I think we both like that. You know, it just, uh, without getting too buried in things, but actually just, uh, see it at, see it for what it is.

[00:08:23] Pia: He really challenged some of the sort of perspectives of Simon Sinek too around, you know, finding purpose at work and he talked much more about find purpose for yourself and then align it to work, but don't get too absorbed by the, the sugar sort of candy floss 

[00:08:40] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:08:40] Pia: o of a, of a of a company's purpose.

[00:08:43] Dan: And I found that really particularly fascinating. 'Cause you know, you and I, like a lot of leadership consultants have done a lot of work on that end of things. And, um, it's, it is, even when you're doing it, you, you sort of feel, yeah, this is a, this is a. This is a nuanced subject, isn't it? Because it's great if you can align to your company's purpose. And obviously that's, um, that's something the organizations would love. But actually his point was quite powerful. You can't rely on your workplace to give you purpose. You, you've gotta realize you have to have it and then align it to that one. So it's, um, yeah, there was, it's a, it's a good, it's a solitary lesson that's for sure.

[00:09:18] Pia: And then we looked at this whole notion. So we, we need to get diverse and, and, and, and see things differently. But then how do we give empowerment and how do we make people feel that they've got autonomy inside a team? And that's something that definitely is shifting. You know, as we are, you know, much more adopting hybrid ways of working, the speed of things is working. It's a, it's a much more, um, dissipated way of working. And we, so, Tom McLaughlin was really interesting, because he, he uses himself as the human experiment of removing hierarchy out of, out of the team and changing the absolute complete way that, they work. 

[00:10:00] Dan: Yeah, And he's constantly learning and Juliet joined us, early in the season to talk about how clarity is not being served up. You know, the importance is there, but the clarity's not there. And of course that's an interesting tension actually, when you are trying to push, autonomy out. You know, if you've got a team of teams, how do you organize them? Maintaining that autonomy but not letting clarity go? Um, I think that's, uh, that, that's, that's, that's seemed to me in, in Tom's conversation, a, a, a constant challenge, because saying to a big group of people, oh, do whatever you want. That's not it. Um, it's actually working out these more subtle ways to maintain clarity, I think.

[00:10:39] Pia: He also went on holiday quite regularly as well, and that was a good

[00:10:41] Dan: Yeah, that's right. That's,

[00:10:44] Pia: to put autonomy back into everyone else's hands. We met Sahera Sumar back again this time talking about diversity inclusion with her client in, in West Africa. This was fascinating, absolutely fascinating, about how to create a, a whole cultural transformation through values of people that were across a broad range of tribes and countries and experience and cultures. Whoa. Trying to find the common ground was, was really interesting.

[00:11:19] Pia: But she, she really, I think, really articulated cleverly about how shared values and behavior lead much better to collaboration. You can't make people collaborate. You've gotta find them what they can collaborate on.

[00:11:32] Dan: Yeah. And I, I think that was, that was sort of an extreme case. The work that she's doing is, and the work that the organization's doing is amazing, But that sort of extreme diver diversity sort of helped I think shed some light on what any team can do. And that, as you say, is actually getting those shared values and behaviors down. 

[00:11:49] Dan: We very often try to sort of make this granular sort of right, you know, I think we talked about this in the wrap up to the show, but it really trying to too much in a way understand the cultural norms of where that person comes from, whereas actually there are bigger differences within them between. And actually. If you keep looking and breaking things up, you think, no, actually I'm gonna have to deal with you as an individual, work with you as an individual, and really work on that instead of trying to have a sort of checklist of things in your culture. It's not, um, that was the big jump out for me, and I think that work, that's a lesson that. We can bring into any team. Um, they're not trying to have a little handbook about each person, but, but actually, um, just really engage with them, with curiosity and set those codes across the organization around behaviors.

[00:12:39] Dan: And of course, and on the subject of tricky, challenging situations, Bernadette Welch was amazing talking about her work in the Australian government, but also in, um, leading the Covid response in in, in Fiji. And, huge amounts of complexity. And she really did nail this piece of clarity. And if you think about empowerment and autonomy, you know, we would, we've seen in quite a few of these shows that clarity, the right type of clarity actually gives you those guide rails, doesn't it? It's not, you can do anything, but actually the right amount of clarity, um, gives people the autonomy to really do their jobs and, and get the thing done together.

[00:13:19] Pia: And then the third bucket was community and shared goals. So we, um, you and I dipped into our local community and looked at what had happened there, um, and, and what the impact of that was. So you, it was really interesting talking to you about your journey with Ilkley Live and how that had gone from two men quietly playing their instruments in a back garden to something with 60 acts. And, uh, you know, it was phenomenal. And, and it was really interesting to hear about, again, about the values and how those are the things that you kept really close, but actually you have much more freedom within those boundaries, empowering, oth others to, to, to go the direction they wanted to go.

[00:14:04] Dan: Yeah, I think so. And trying not to be too, try holding that line, but weirdly not being too forceful about it. The line is hell, but you're not, not sort of too early on going out and being too corporate about it. But it really was very similar, I think, to Matt Trinetti and the London Writers' Salon, because the thing that I, that I think those, those two cases share is about following the energy. I thought that was just such a powerful thing for Matt to say.

[00:14:28] Dan: And I think this is true of any team actually, both for sort of internal what, what, what's, what's, what are people wanting to do? What, where do people headed here? What, where is the energy going? But also lean sort of, really focusing on the external, uh, world and your customers and your stakeholders, where is the energy here? Because if you can follow that and get the job done, then, then that's, uh, a wise move. That was a, uh, something that stayed with me from Matt.

[00:14:52] Pia: And then, um, actually it was the first, one of the first, um, interviews we did was with GRE from our local Burringbar community and, and really talking about what he did in helping to coordinate the, the response to the floods. And, and I think that was an interesting conversation around the, the power of a unifying direction. We've heard that again and again. And, and that really brings people quickly on board. Um, and it, in, it's, it unifies and it intensifies the, the activity and also helps to really prioritize. You know, you're very quickly able to go, we're not doing that. We'll do this, but we're not doing that. And I, I loved his term, maximizing assets, which I've thought about a lot since, uh, since he raised it and, you know, a military term, but a useful one.

[00:15:46] Dan: And, and that sort of, uh, just a terrifying question of are you an asset or a liability in this situation? Worth asking every so often. Hey, Pia, let me ask you a question, um, about these things. We've looked at some of these ex sort of extreme cases in a way. You know, we, we've looked at floods and we've looked at fi, you know, we've, we've looked at the, the, um, covid response and so on. Um, what's in a way, something that strikes me is that there's sort of. Benefit to these difficult situations because every, there's a bit more alignment. People know exactly what, people are sort of arguing less and sort of about what you're trying to achieve to some extent. Do you think, what, what's your, what's your thinking on that and how we can, what can we learn from that more broadly for, for, for life in sort of corporate where we're running a marketing team or, and there's no emergency to unite us?

[00:16:40] Pia: Well, I mean it's, it is a bit like they, they talk about the sort of the burning platform and, and traditionally that's what's really, it's got people to really, that that is what a, a flood or a wildfire or an event even inside, you know, it's batten down the hatches and that brings out the best. You know, and I think that, that's gonna be very tiring for people to having a burning platform. They're exhausted already. We've had a lot happen in the last four or five years, and we are not quite sure what the, what the stability is looking forward.

[00:17:16] Pia: So I think it's really important and we, this was really clear with the data that juliette talked about clarity. Burning ambition. I think, I think we've gotta go back out to what we want to be living in. How, what do we want this future to be, and how do we create vision direction, a way of working, standards that we expect from one another, and how do we do that in a really compelling way? Because the alternative is just to batten down the hatches and, and wait for a whole load of terrible stuff to happen. And you know, history will tell us it does happen and sometimes, and sometimes it doesn't. But I think actually we can rise above that, and really focus on creating a compelling, exciting future that really matters not only for us, but for our kids, um, otherwise, I think we're going to, to lose a little bit of the sparkle of things in our life and we, we've got a real opportunity to do that.

[00:18:18] Dan: Oh, well said, well said. I, I, you know, we started the show with all those external goings on and they do, they leak into us, don't they? And into our teams, and actually, yeah, trying to help teams right now, um, whoever's in the team to move, as you say, not to have that burning platform. Something bad's happening, we're sort of f its fight or flight, you know, limbic response to actually say, actually how do we have this, um, burning ambition? 'cause even John Kotter sort of change legend, um, said that, Burning ambition will, burning platform will get change started, but it won't sustain it. And we need to be sustaining change, don't we? So, um, yeah, I really hope that teams can start to make this shift into something that's a little bit more pleasurable and actually more productive as well because, and we hope to help them with the, um, with season seven.

[00:19:06] Dan: So, um, we have loads of goodies. If I, if I just run through the, the episodes. We've got, um, we have bed ben Powell, who um, hosts the Lad Bible podcast on extraordinary lives. I think he'll have some stuff to share. Juliet will be coming in to talk about psychological safety. I'll just give a few examples. We are talking about. Toxic masculinity. We're looking at animals and group culture again. Um, we're going to be looking at, um, talking to someone who has transformed the democracy in their town, and will be, yep, financial, financial teams, development teams. We've got so many goodies coming up and I hope this will inspire and inform our listener, um, to, to go forward, yeah. And build that, um, burning ambition, um, you know, move away from the burning platform.

[00:19:57] Pia: Much better. Much better. I think it's a choice. I think I really do think it's a choice and I think that's a leadership choice to, um, either succumb to all the challenges and or you know, and I think that builds the resilience, but actually let's create our own bubbles. And, and the other bit I would add to it is, I think there really is a rise of the team. I think, I think, you know, what we've been talking about for the last six seasons is starting to happen and, and, and I know we're both seeing some phenomenal teams that are, that are creating amazing outcomes inside a whole range of organization. So it is definitely, the, this is, this is the time for teams now where you can influence small number and do some pretty extraordinary things together.

[00:20:45] Dan: Absolutely. I mean, rationally, those, the problems we're seeing can't be solved by individuals. But emotionally, you, you want to, in these tough times, you wanna be around others and have that secu, that sort of security and company. So I think teams are, teams are really giving people what they need. And we're definitely seeing a rise of teams, which is, as you say, wonderful. So can't wait for the next, the upcoming season. But that is it for this episode. Uh, you can find show notes on squadify.net, under Resources. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:21:31] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.