Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the podcast where you can experience an
example customer interview every week.
You'll discover new perspectives on different software products and improve
your customer interview technique.
As I attempt to do the same
I'm Jonathan Markwell and this week I'll be interviewing Krista . Krista is a
customer of notion, notions, or tool for note-taking project management and more.
Are we trying to understand why Krista purchased the notion, how they use it
and what alternatives they've considered?
Krista's a Marine scientist and writer and digital marketer.
They're currently working on marketing at using.
User list provides marketing and lifecycle email for SAS all under one roof.
Hi Krista
Krista: Hi John.
Jon: Thank you so much for giving up some time today to, uh, tell me all
about why, uh, decided to buy notion.
Um, I'm pretty excited to hear about your experience of it.
Um, uh, before we get started, I wonder if you have any questions for me.
Krista: Uh, so far, I don't have any,
Jon: thank you.
And I want to check, uh, is it, uh, you happy to record this interview?
Um, what does he, normally we are already recording, um, because
it's being recorded for a podcast.
Um, but if this is a normal catalyst and wrench for you, I'd prefer to
record it anyway so that I don't have to scribble down, um, um, the whole time.
And normally it wouldn't be shared outside.
Uh, outside of the organization, which is doing the interview, but this one's
going to be public for everyone to hear about your experience or a fellowship.
Well, cool.
Okay, cool.
Thank you.
Um, right, so thanks again, um, for, uh, taking the time now, can you
tell me a little bit about when you first realized, um, you would need
something like notion, um, to fuel.
Krista: Well, um, I actually encountered lotion in 2020 and or one of my.
But it really didn't, uh, go into it.
It was only in, um, in this year 2021, and it started working at
user list when I got really, um, acquainted with how notion works.
And, um, I only use it maybe for work, but, um, seeing all the features
and getting acquainted, uh, with it and then, uh, Uh, getting to see the
different templates that you could use.
I also used it for, um, my graduate thesis.
Um, I'm actually in graduate school, so it, uh, it really helped me a lot, uh,
with, uh, with my other clients as well.
So notion is, uh, basically, uh, one of my tools that I've mainly used for anything
work-related or even in my research.
Jon: All right.
That makes sense.
And so, um, what were you using to do the things you used notion for now,
uh, before you started using nation
Krista: for.
It was mainly for productivity.
So I used to use, um, other productivity tools like Trello,
and then there was a sauna.
Um, they were quite, they were okay, but I found it kind of clunky when
you had to switch from giving the boards and the calendars for Trello,
it was the same, um, because they had to keep my notes somewhere else.
And then, um, the tasks were in another, um, we're, um, Trello in the sauna,
but when I started using notion, I really found it, uh, very cool.
And then it was, um, pretty, pretty awesome that you, you were able
to keep the tasks in one place.
You could move like a Kanban board or project management template.
You could use that.
And then, um, you could just add another page, which you could
keep your meeting notes in.
So.
Um, it's great to have everything in one place.
Maybe, uh, like Jane said, the only thing missing with notion is,
um, the collaborative editing, so we could get rid of Google docs.
So, yeah, that's pretty cool that you were able to use notion for lots of these
things, uh, unless you do a lot of SCUP.
Jon: Right.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.
So bringing it brings everything together into one.
And so before you were using, um, Trello and it was like a sauna
and what were some of the specific, um, Things that you were
doing in a sauna and trying to,
Krista: well, it was mostly for scheduling deadlines and tests because
I worked with a team before that.
Um, we mainly use a sauna for everything, especially for the
task, but, um, some of the.
Uh, for, for example, writing down the, uh, documentation for like processes,
you had to do that somewhere else.
Like Google docs it's okay.
But, um, for me right now, I think it's better to do everything in notion.
Uh, you saw, you don't have the switch apps for that.
Jon: Yep.
I can definitely see.
So were you ever using Trello?
Uh, sauna in parallel or those with different when you're
working with different people.
Krista: Well, it depends on the, it depends on my clients actually.
So some of them prefer Trello or some of them sauna.
Um, I didn't use them at the same time because, um, they're kind of similar.
So it really depends on, uh, what the client prefers.
Yeah.
But if I had the choice, I would really suggest doing everything in notion,
even for documentation, with my.
Jon: Yeah.
And so the, so the, um, the alternatives you've mentioned so
far, Assana Trello and Google docs.
Are there any other things that it's replaced for you?
Well, uh, you were
Krista: using, there were other tools.
Um, I worked with one team that you see, um, Google sheets,
even for tracking deliverables.
Um, it was okay, but, uh, It's still kind of clunky, I guess.
Yeah, it wouldn't.
I would use Google sheets for something else, uh, compared to,
um, doing my past list over there.
Jon: Yep.
Yeah, that definitely makes sense.
Um, And maybe also exploring fuel, uh, graduate program.
Um, what, what tools were you using for that, um, for your notes and
keeping track of tasks before motion?
Krista: Well, um, Hey, we're.
Everything was Google-based actually.
So he had different documents for the task place.
I put that in Google sheets and then the drafts, I put those on Google docs
and upload everything in Google drive.
So I'm actually using that because I am still using Google based apps, like I've
mentioned because my, my supervisor is.
Has a preference for Google-based, um, apps are great.
The notion that I keep, uh, a notion version of everything, uh, just for the
sake of, um, keeping track of everything on my end, but I'm trying to convince
her if this, this notion, because, um, It was the way I'm doing this manual
Kanban board on Google sheets, switches.
It serves a purpose, you know, the basic purpose, but when, when the tasks, um,
increases, uh, it's kind of hard to, um, switch the task cards between columns.
So it gets, um, um, less manageable when you have tests there.
So I would step up her notion over that one.
Jon: Yeah, I can, I can imagine.
Not like I, yeah, I, I can't imagine trying to combine them in a tool, so, um,
Krista: yeah.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, when I was trying that, um, you had, I
think there's a way to do that.
Um, Kanban board on Google sheets, but you have to.
Installing add on.
I forgot the name of that pad on, but it's really, I was thinking that
to do everything manually because when it's kind of hard to convince
someone else to tell her to, um, you have to install this, add on.
Maybe that wouldn't be the best way to share your Ken board.
Jon: Yep.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, if the, if the add on that you, uh, that comes to
mind, um, it would be great.
Great to hear what it's, uh, what it's called.
Um, so tell me more about the process of you.
Do you end up keeping notion and your Google sheets in sync at the moment?
Do you, how do you manage
Krista: that?
Well, it's kind of difficult to be honest, because.
For me notion, um, keeping the lotion up date is, um, automatic on my end
because it's easy to, um, drag and drop things, especially in the canvas board.
And then it's only when I opened the Google sheets again,
that they remember to sync it.
Yeah.
So it's kinda hard.
I haven't figured out the way to, if there's a way to.
Uh, maybe zap or sync them together, but, um, doing men, doing things manually,
um, is fine for now, but maybe I have to, um, figure out a way to make them
automatically sync with each other.
Jon: All right.
Um, and so, and so you're, you're basically working in notion day-to-day and
then occasionally you're going back in.
Google land and remembering that you need to bring some cross.
Yeah.
Right.
Got it.
Uh, and so going back into your client work, maybe, can you tell
me about your, the, the, um, the thing you're doing most days on
most times you're working in notion.
What, what are the processes that you're, that you're doing?
Uh,
Krista: well, uh, user list, we mainly use notion.
So the page that one of the pages that I am always checking is our, um, to do this.
So I'm just making check boxes usually, uh, for what will be the,
um, priorities for the week with priorities for the day, just to make
sure that I don't miss anything.
Uh, it's really helpful.
And, um, On Fridays.
I usually do that.
So I have to do this for next week.
And then it's really cool that you been, um, just type in with the
markdown language, the checkboxes, so you can track, uh, what's
Spanish and what's not, and what's, uh, what's upcoming for the week.
And then they're there.
Uh, some rare occasions that I have to create a documentation page for anything
new that we do at Ute, certainly.
And it's really helpful to.
Um, switch pages, this, um, just in case you forget anything in the processes
and you have to check if you're, if you missed anything or stuff like that.
Jon: Yep.
And see, are you creating a new page in notion for every week, um, or a project,
or how do you make that decision?
Krista: Uh, we have, um, Jane and I have a common page.
So it's this, I think it grew into a really, really long page that I
just add the tasks for the week.
So it might, all desks were very down there somewhere, but, um, it's really
helpful that it has no limit on one page.
So it could be an ending page, but yeah, but I just, um, add the test
where the week on that one page and I just check it from time to time.
Yeah.
And then we only add new pages for any documentation that we're working on.
Okay.
Jon: Got it.
Yup.
Uh, that makes sense.
And so can you give me an example of some of the, um, tasks that
you're putting in a specific.
Krista: Well, um, look crops then.
When is every, every start of the month, I usually add the task to send out
the email blast for whenever events.
That's a scheduled every first Thursday of.
And then I have another task, uh, to pick two to three subscribers who we can send
out or, um, usually it's t-shirts too.
And then there's the, um, maybe like two to three times a month,
I'm working on editing and publishing blog posts for a blog.
So that's basically.
Usual things for me to deliver this as the marketing manager.
Jon: Yep.
That makes sense.
I can see all the pretty many steps to them was tempted to explore
deep into, um, into all of the detail of those individual things.
Uh, but conscious of time.
Um, uh, so.
Uh, you've, you've said that you first came across notion through
your client, uh, user list.
Um, and then ultimately decided to bring that into, into your own,
into other client work and, and also your graduate school work.
Um, and so in switching, um, to it, Do you remember if you were actually looking
for something else for those other things before, were you unhappy with the way
that things are working or before you first came into contact with notion?
Krista: Well, I, for two of my clients are actually the sweat quiet.
Um, we didn't really have a common.
So we will track the tasks for every week.
So I decided since I was using, um, uh, sign up for one of my previous,
uh, company, uh, I used that worker.
And then I realized after using those shirts for, uh, for a while
it is a sign, it was kind of clunky actually, because you had to create
a new workspace for everyone.
For every client or every project.
And even, even now I'm working, uh, I'm using a signer for
one of my clients right now.
It's just kind of, I think it's kind of difficult that you don't get all the
notifications from all of your workspaces.
So you have to switch, switch, work, uh, workspaces from one to the other.
If you're wanting to see all the notifications.
I think, um, yeah.
Um, notion has a pretty good, um, notification.
No, I don't really use that yet for some of my tests, but at least it's easier
to see all of the notifications please.
So you don't have to switch from one workspace to another and then
yeah, the templates are pretty good.
Jon: Tell me about one of your favorite templates?
Krista: Well, um, right in that way, it really like the Kanban board.
I don't know what it's really cool because sometimes they have different names for
different industries, but I really like the project management template because
I like seeing that, um, columns for.
To do the doing and the done.
So, um, it really like, uh, I really like the fact that I'm able to see
all my tasks in one place and then look at the bigger picture and, you
know, um, celebrate if I do, uh, if one test, most of the than this.
So I think that's easier for, um, you know, tracking everything and making
sure that you don't miss anything.
Jon: Absolutely.
And you mentioned this switching between apps, you still having to do that at the
moment because you're not entirely, you don't have all clients on to notion yet?
Krista: Not yet.
Um, yeah, it, I just have, uh, you know, I just have a notion page.
Uh, for my personal use for them, but we haven't, um, some of my
clients, uh, haven't switched to notion yet, but if I could get
them on board, that really awesome.
So we could see everything there.
Jon: Yeah.
I can absolutely see that.
Um, so, so would you say that, um, It's helping in every way that you
hoped it was, um, using notion for the things that you're now using it for?
Krista: Well, I think I haven't, um, maximize the potential of
notion this, that, but, um, so far it has helped me a lot.
And please, I don't have to open, um, a lot of times on my Chrome to just to
see the documentations in the typical list, which is, which is awesome.
And then I really like the fact that, you know, um, I could link some stuff
from my Google notes to my lotion, if there's no, no other way to work
on the content that I'm working on.
Jon: Yep.
So tell me more about that.
Do you link between the two often and do you link to any other places?
Krista: The times that I've linked them is actually for example, some software that
we're using or an online app that we're using to optimize images had just linked
that a notion, uh, from my documentation page or, uh, sometimes I forget what the.
But the app, we were using the convert stuff to mark tech.
So it was just, you know, tiny exam, uh, tiny things, but not really major things.
Yeah.
And then they actually start linking some of my, um, stuff on my Google
drive, especially for my research.
I actually decided to upload.
Um, all my records, speed breasts, the notions in, um, an education plan allows
you to upload unlimited files there.
So instead of opening things on Google drive, I decided to upload
everything on emotion, which is awesome.
Jon: Alright.
That's cool.
Yeah, I can definitely see why you do that.
Um, um, Has a tricky question, maybe it, how, um, uh, how would
you feel or what, what would you do?
Um, if you suddenly couldn't use nation anymore?
Krista: I really don't know what to do with that, but I guess
the closest thing I would do is.
Move everything to Google.
And then at least for keeping trap on track of the test, I would switch back to
maybe Asana would be better than Trello.
I think that's the closest solution to that, but I hope it still works.
Jon: All right.
Yeah.
I dunno.
I have no information about China nations on she'll be fine.
Um, and, uh, I guess, uh, uh, Um, uh, is there anything else,
um, that you think I should know generally about how you use notion?
I want to, you know, there's a question you feel I may have missed, or
Krista: I think, I think they're RN, but Hmm.
I think we've missed anything or I can think of right now.
Yeah.
Jon: The question would be, is there anything you'd
like to change about notion?
Um, like if you could wave a magic wand?
Krista: Oh, definitely.
I think, um, I agree with Jean tweeted about this.
Um, it was more, she was talking about the collaborative editing, which,
where we currently couldn't do or no.
Because I think you can only go as far as commenting on sections of drafts,
but not really do what Google docs does, where you can, where you can really mix
direct suggestions to, to the draft.
So maybe if notion could magically do that, maybe we could ditch Google docs for
good, at least for wrecking on the dot.
Jon: Right.
Sorry.
Tell me more about how that, um, how you work together at the moment when you're
collaborating on a document that you literally both typing at the same time.
Oh,
Krista: well, Jean and I are, um, usually the ones where
I'm making the edits and the.
Um, suggestions on the docs, but she lets me do the first round of editing first.
So I've typed in my, um, I go through the draft and I'll just put
them as his distance because she's gonna make the final edit so she
will approve, um, my suggestions.
And then after her, her turn is done, we could, uh, finally publish it on our blog.
Or the podcast speech or the show notes.
So it's like that
Jon: both working on the document at the same time?
Uh,
Krista: no.
Um, I, um, I usually, uh, I usually do the first round and then she
does the second and final round.
Um, Because my first round is pretty, pretty messy, I would say
because, um, you have to, um, make sure that there are no grammatical
errors or if everything makes sense.
So Jayden, um, encourages me to, um, tear down the draft as much
as I would before she comes in and finalizes and polishes and everything.
Jon: Yep.
And S and so you're quite, you're doing this to then Google docs,
Krista: is that right?
Jon: Which of the Google docs features are particularly important for doing that?
Krista: Um, it's the suggesting option.
She could actually switch everything to suggest.
So just to make sure that, um, we're not destroying the draft entirely, or
I'm not destroying the draft entirely because I might have, um, missed
something or I misinterpreted something.
Um, at the very least Jane could come in and review everything before we, uh,
come up with the final version of the.
So that's pretty cool.
Jon: Makes sense.
Makes sense.
Uh, great.
Um, is there anything else that comes to mind about notion before we, uh, draw
the, draw, the interview to a close?
Krista: Uh, well, I haven't really explored the, um, the limitations of.
Personal the free personal friend, but so far.
It's great.
I just know that it's limited.
We it's kind of limited with the file uploads as far as I know, but yeah.
And then I really appreciate that there.
I think it's a, it's a deal between the institutions, I guess, that, um,
they give out a free personal pro plan with the, uh, with emails that past.
Uh, that EDU that ends in EDU.
All right.
That's pretty cool.
I'm pretty helpful.
Yeah.
I just, uh, I hope that more students would, um, maximize the features of
notions, pretty helpful, especially, um, a lot of students, I know
at least here in the Philippines are taking online classes and.
Um, getting stuff done on my answers.
Really helpful.
Yeah.
Jon: Yeah.
That I would have loved to have had something like that when I was
taking.
Krista: Yeah.
I'm not really sure when.
If we had, uh, my university had them deal with motion back in 2018
because Hey, after we use from got that app on Microsoft OneNote.
Yeah.
I use one note per some of my notes from class, and then I didn't really
read them, scan a, uh, it was okay.
It's something that I think it's kind of limited.
I didn't really didn't like the way it was for method.
It's kind of weird that people just right anyway, compared to the notion
that it's like a doc that you can, you know, there, you know, with type.
Jon: Yeah.
Do you think, was there any other reason, so you took notes in one
note, but just didn't go back.
Do you, do you know why you didn't go back beyond?
Krista: I think, um, it's actually kind of hard, um, to look at it.
It was.
No organize in a weird way, because I think they were, um, trying to emulate,
uh, a binder of sorts, uh, bring notes.
Um, it was a different page.
And one thing I really appreciate with notion was.
E, um, sub pages.
So you have these templates where you can have meeting notes and then
all your meeting notes are there.
You can go back to them.
Or I actually used one template.
Um, it was for class notes.
It was definitely helpful.
If you can see everything there and then you can just, um, click
on what you're going through.
What do you want to go back to?
I think that that was the one thing missing from one note, as
you can see all your stuff, uh, all your stuff in one place you have
through skim through everything.
Yeah.
Really helpful to have those templates where you can see everything.
Especially the meeting notes with my clients say, I definitely use that.
Jon: Yeah, well, that's been fascinating.
I'm conscious of the time we've been talking for a half an hour,
um, now, um, but thank you so much.
Uh, yeah.
With each of these conversations, I always learn so much more, um, about products.
Um, you know, I have used in the past, but I wasn't aware of, uh, many
of the things that you've shared.
So thank you.
Um, um, I'm sure listeners will, will find it fascinating as well.
Um, uh, is there, um, Does anyone come to mind?
You don't have to name them on the air, but, uh, is there anyone that you
would, um, recommend I speak to next?
If I was, uh, further researching, um, notion and, and, and people
that use it, um, heavily.
I guess, well,
Krista: um, I think you could speak to definitely Jean and Bennet because
they've been, I think they've been using it for a long time, but if
you want a different perspective on.
I don't know, my friend used it.
My friend's a graphic designer.
I don't know how exactly she used this, that she used this notion
for a lot of her work stuff.
So I think that would give you a different perspective on how
a graphic designer sees that.
Jon: Yeah.
Great.
Thank you.
So, uh, it'd be great to take a moment to hear a bit more about a year.
I mean, I, I knew a little bit of background about you before, and
you've mentioned, uh, Jane and Benedict from years less to I've I've
known for many years and bumped into different conferences and things.
And so you're, you're working with them as a freelance, a bit your so studying.
So tell us a bit more about, about that.
Krista: Nope.
Um, before I joined, um, user lists, I was actually working in a university here
in the Philippines and I was taking up a, uh, I'm still taking up my graduate
degree in brain science and then started an acquit in 2019 from the university.
Um, I started, um, I decided to make, um, freelancing full time in 2019 and 2020.
So I'm here right now, shifting from, um, the sciences through, uh, digital market.
But, um, I would say that that, that experience really helped me, um, um,
shifting to move full time freelancing because, um, really helped me grow a
lot in terms of being conscious in.
Making sure that stuff's done.
And then seeing the bigger picture of what these small tests are
trying to, um, what objectives we're trying to reach or what goals.
So I guess that would be, that was a necessary experience for
me to be able to self manage.
And a lot of things.
Yeah.
Jon: Yeah.
All right.
And you're looking for more freelance clients.
Are you fully booked?
Krista: Well, right in the, uh, fully booked kind of, uh, I am trying not to
fill in, uh, all the eight hours in a day.
So then I have time to finish my research and then.
Um, maybe in the future after I graduate, I would definitely look for
more plants, but I'm pretty happy with the clients that I'm working right now
with right now, learn a lot from them.
Jon: Excellent.
Uh, and where can people find out more about you?
Um, you have a website or a Twitter?
Um,
Krista: well, I don't have.
Website, I'm still working on my personal website or implanting to, to set up
one, but they could find me on Twitter.
Um, my, uh, uh, my Twitter handle is, um, K I M L Garrell.
So that's K I M E L G a R E J O.
And then I usually tweet about the things we do at user lists
or digital marketing, or even.
Some of the, uh, about the struggles in academia.
Jon: Excellent.
Um, I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
Um, yeah, I think it was from your tweaks that.
Discovered that you recently started using nation more heavily, which prompted
this interview because I was very keen to speak to someone that I'd never spoken
to before that we lived a long way away.
Um, and so, um, uh, it was great, great for Jane to, to put us in
touch and contact us as well.
Um, and I'll also be linking to easel lynched in the show notes.
So, um, Thank you so much again for your time, Krista, I have one
more question for you actually.
Um, uh, can you recommend three, um, other software products that maybe you
use or that you've, um, that you or your clients have paid for recently
that you'd recommend checking out?
Krista: Oh, well, It's um, provided they actually be used, but a really
like this, um, inbox app we use front it's the front app that shows you.
Um, the most important messages that you're receiving.
So I really like the, although I'm using Gmail as well, but I
like run because, um, it, it shows you the most important messages.
If you have in your inbox and then you can just archive or snooze, um, news, um, some
messages that you want to follow up on.
So I actually, um, have a struggle with that compared to Google.
I am struggling with Google and because, um, compared to the front
app, Google, doesn't let you know if the receiver as senior message.
Whereas, um, on the front back, it lets you know that they've already read it
and then it could, um, notify you if you, if you want to send a follow up
email, if you Snoop six or I think that's a pretty great opportunity to discuss.
Jon: Yeah.
I'm almost certainly going to do an interview on that one at some point.
Um, are there any others that you use.
Krista: So for the, I don't think, oh, of course.
Um, slack is, is pretty cool slack, definitely.
I guess.
Um, I use that for all of my clients now, slack, um, because I could separate,
I could actually, we could actually separate, um, topics in the channels.
And then, um, if I were to.
If I were given the, the choice to decide on everything from anyone I talked to her
work with slack is a go-to app because I really don't like using, um, messaging
apps, like, um, like WhatsApp or telegram.
If you're going to follow up on certain tests.
Um, what I really like about slack is that you can compartmentalize different, um,
you know, the print, uh, topics and then Ariel, like their thread feature so that
nothing really gets varied on one channel.
So you can continue the conversation where you left off.
That's pretty cool.
Snap and make sense.
It's really, really awesome that there it's free, at least for, um, if you're
not planning to buy a paid plan, I think it lets you keep about 10,000
messages, which is pretty awesome.
Snap.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Instead of, you know, Brian
Jon: slide three got notion.
Uh, slack, um, front and anything else you use with one more?
Uh,
Krista: um, well, first social media, I'm using this other app.
Um, it's all . Yeah.
Um, it's yeah, Instagram doesn't let you post anything on the shelf or it's
kind of limited, but, um, and then if you go on the back or the business,
the business, Facebook, it's kind of limited, although it, it allows you to.
Um, your stories and your scheduled posts.
It lets you do that, which is pretty cool, but it's kind of
limited mid-story so story-tell lets you schedule Instagram stories.
So instead of doing it manually, um, it lets you, um, schedule ahead and then.
It's it's a pretty decent app for, um, customizing your stories compared to
other apps I've used, especially it's definitely, uh, an app, the keep it
view security, social media manager.
Jon: Thank you so much again for your time and for sharing, um, those extra gems.
I hadn't had a three to four, so I'm going to check that out, um, for sure.
Um, uh, yeah, thank you.
And, um, enjoy the rest of your day.
Krista: Thanks Don.
Jon: That was hopefully a useful example of a customer interview.
You can find notes from this episode, including links to all the products
mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.
If you know anyone who might benefit from hearing this perspective,
please share the episode.
And word of caution.
This interview is a snapshot of just one person's perspective
in an artificial situation.
You should be very careful about drawing any conclusions about
the guest people like them or the product from this single data point.
Customer interviews are most valuable when you see parallels across, many
of them will be in a specific context.
I'd suggest a minimum of five and ideally 12 to 15.
I recommend the book, deploy empathy by Michelle Hanson for a
practical guide on how to do it.
Well, if you'd like to join me as a guest on a future
episode, please send me a note.
I'm jumped on Twitter.
That's J O T.
My DMS are open.
You can also use the form at empathy, deployed.com or email.
Hello at empathy deployed.
Please include the names and addresses of free software products
you use regularly and or pay for.