Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Here on Equine Assisted World.
We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
established in the equine assisted field.
This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
We're going to Norway today.
Amazing, amazing place.
Amazing person up there, Norun Kogstad.
She is a psychotherapist who runs an amazing, I keep saying that word, don't I?
Because it's true, place called Lundehagen, halfway up Norway,
where horse welfare, human welfare,
psychotherapy, Equine psychotherapy, the different worlds of equine
therapy, all come together in a really unique nexus that I think is
uniquely Nordic, uniquely Scandinavian in a way in the breadth of vision.
I think many of us further down in, towards the equator, which
compared to Norway we are tend to get a bit mired in our local view.
And I think those people up at the top of the world the Scandinavians,
the Canadians, they often seem to have this sort of slightly broader view.
It's like they're looking down on us and sort of going, Oh, look at
those interesting, funny people down there or squabbling about things.
And they seem to provide us with an interesting example of functional society.
I think we know this is true in education.
We know this is true in healthcare.
We know this is true in just sort of the public and private sector in general
compared to further down in Europe.
North America, etc.
So, I've always been a bit intrigued by this, like, why are
the systems up there so functional?
And, Norrin is a very good example of a functional system.
So, I thought we'd get her on here to explain that, but
also, what is psychotherapy?
And what is equine psychotherapy?
What even is it as a field?
And why is it important?
And how does it relate to what the rest of us are all doing in this
great conversation that we're having about horses and humans and healing.
So Norun, thank you so much for coming on.
Can you tell us a bit about who you are and what you do?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, first of all, Rupert, thank you so much for
inviting me on to this podcast.
Well, I am Norun, I'm a psychiatrist and psychotherapist.
And as you said, I run Lundahagen.
I've been including horses into psychotherapy for the last, yeah,
10 to 15 years, more or less.
And I sort of been, you know, a lifelong horse woman.
I've always been drawn to horses wherever I were in the world.
I was always drawn to horses.
And when, when I heard.
That it's possible to include horses into psychotherapy.
I found that very intriguing.
So I went ahead and I got to know this hospital in Norway where they
offer specialized care, especially for people who has experienced
overwhelming experiences like traumatic events and they include horses.
And I I got to know the head psychologist of that apartment and she told me
that, Well, Norin, if you want to do this work, you have to go to the U.
S.
and do a HEAL education and then you have to become a centered
writing instructor and get yourself a proper psychotherapy education.
Good luck.
Quickly,
Rupert Isaacson: what is HEAL?
H E A L.
Why, and why did she tell you to go do that?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, HEAL stands for Human Equine Alliances for
Psychotherapy and Learning.
And it's a model developed by Lee Shambu.
She also worked together with Linda Kohanov and some other people in the
beginning of the founding of HEAL.
And HEAL is emotion focused, body oriented psychotherapeutic intervention,
including horses for trauma populations.
This was back in 2013 when I did that education in the US.
And at that time, this, you know, there was this wave of trauma informed care,
asking the questions of what happened to you instead of what's wrong with you.
And the emergent field of neuroscience was just opening up to the wide public.
And it was fantastic for me to come into to that field through the HEAL model.
Norway does have its, you know, functional competence of not being overly
enthusiastic about new, new things.
So I wouldn't say that, you know, the new, new knowledge and the new
way of looking at relationship and trauma is very well integrated into
the system as of yet, but especially not, you know, 10 to 15 years ago.
So for me, that was really super exciting and just, you know, dive into all of
this fantastic new ways of looking at people and the body oriented perspective
from Veselvandar Kolk and, and Pat Ogden and The Body Keeps the Score and
how, how that was opening up to so many perspectives, both on my own personal
journey and on how to, how to work with clients and how to open up for the
Rupert Isaacson: You say that Norway isn't so keen on new
stuff and functional in that way.
However, in the paragraph more or less before that, you said that
you had gone to work and learn at a hospital which offers equine stuff.
Now, if you're listening to that as a Brit or as a You think
hospitals with horses and farms?
That's not something you really hear.
So that's an example of what I mean of perhaps in your perception, things
move slowly for new stuff up in Norway.
But from our point of view, looking up at, say, that health care
system, that's not something you'd see at all, you know, in the UK.
In in the U.
S.
probably, you might see it in a private thing here and there, but you
certainly wouldn't see it as a sort of state funded, state sponsored thing.
Can you just backtrack a little bit?
Why would you find horses, farms, nature, in hospitals in Norway?
Like, what's the history of that, and what's their logic with that?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, the history I think is quite common for both
the, you know, continental countries and American countries that, you
know, there was this huge movement of moving the, the people back into
nature and farming and agriculture and you have the therapeutic society.
Rupert Isaacson: When was this?
I don't think it's within living memory.
Norunn Kogstad: No, no, no.
That's, you know, a hundred years ago.
And, and then you have development of the more therapeutic society
in the mid fifties maybe.
where you had the integration of, you know, the staff and the patients living
together on the treatment facility, working together, creating stuff
together fantastic ideas, but also some problems of people enacting each
other's problems, difficulties, keeping a professional framework and so on.
But I think in Norway, there has been a very, a longstanding tradition for
keeping mental health or mental treatment institutions in a agricultural setting.
So all the major old institutions for mental treatment are actually old farms.
And Norway has been governed in a sort of conservative way for
many years where, where there has been a strong focus on science.
And academic and development of treatment models that modalities that that would
sort of help populations and help people.
So by the beginning of the 2000, 2002, 2003, there were three hospitals in
Norway incorporating equine assisted psychotherapy in their treatment.
And this was not based on people liking horses, but this was
based on specialist healthcare.
That found that this population is really hard to reach.
How can we sort of, you know, what can we do to help them?
And I, I know that the, there are several places in Europe who started like that
in the beginning of the two thousands.
But the, the, the specialists have now less access to
developing and utilizing treatment modalities that they find useful.
because it costs money.
And now the healthcare system of Norway, as many other places, is
much more directed towards, you know, the economy of running healthcare.
Rupert Isaacson: Is it getting privatized?
Norunn Kogstad: Not yet, but Parts of it is getting privatized, but
they're trying to run the public healthcare system as a private system.
So it's a very complicated, very illogical system right now.
Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.
So that's where you sort of fill in the gap, I guess.
You're running Lunderhagen.
I've been there.
It's an extraordinary place.
I try not to keep saying amazing.
What I mean by extraordinary is that what I've noticed when you go there is
you can look at Obviously psychotherapy, which is human welfare your standard
of horse welfare is exceptionally high and I want to go into that and why in
a little bit you're doing research?
There's, you know, a PhD in the offing, you guys are scientists.
Obviously there's clinical work happening as well, there's consultations going on.
And you're a nexus, you run these events where different people from
different modalities can come and present what they do and add to the
conversation of equine assisted work.
It's unusually open minded rather than saying, okay, we do
this model or we do that model.
It's like, no, we're open to all the models and that, as you know, that's
not terribly usual in the horse world, let alone the equine assisted world,
although hopefully it's changing.
So you are, funnily enough, privately filling the public space.
Sector gap a little bit there, but you're predicated on psychotherapy and equine
assisted psychotherapy So here's the big question I think and I know I would
be thinking of this if I was driving listening to this podcast What the hell
is psychotherapy anyway, like what is it?
It's a word that people use, but what the fuck is it?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, I think The the theorist, Bruce Wample, he's done a lot of
statistical research on therapy outcome.
And he has compiled the model of the common factors and a conceptual model.
And there is a huge debate in the psychotherapy research field as to
common factor versus specific factors.
But I think what Bruce van Polt says is that psychotherapy is an intervention
that aims at alleviating pain and create psychological changes and
it's based on psychological theories delivered by a trained therapist.
So I think sort of that way of thinking is what I would say
maybe is most understandable.
Rupert Isaacson: A lot of, we talked about hospitals, you're also, and I forgot
to say this in your bios, you're also a medical doctor and so is your husband.
Do you have to be a medical doctor in order to be a psychotherapist
in the same way that you do to be a psychiatrist or not?
Norunn Kogstad: No, not at all.
And There is a lot of, you know, misunderstandings about those terms.
So psychotherapy, that's, that's, you know, that's a separate education.
In Norway, only psychiatrists and psychologists can become certified
psychotherapists, but there is a lot of different kind of psychotherapy trainings.
in brackets, where people learn something about something, but
that's, you're not publicly certified as a psychotherapist, but very few
psychologists and psychotherapists and psychiatrists at this date are.
psychotherapist.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
Norunn Kogstad: Because psychotherapy education, it's a long education.
It requires a lot.
It's very costly.
It's demanding.
It's tiresome.
You even have to have your own therapy and public funds are very scarcely
available and the public system does not anymore see the value of
psychotherapy when offering therapy.
Rupert Isaacson: I suppose, playing devil's advocate, if you'd gone to
medical school, as you did, and you went through all those years, and then
you became, say, a psychiatrist, then you gotta add all this other training.
I could see how that might not be so attractive.
Quick question, are you also a psychiatrist?
Or did you you are?
So you're a psychiatrist and a psychotherapist.
Norunn Kogstad: Yes.
You're
Rupert Isaacson: scary.
Okay.
Norunn Kogstad: No.
So
Rupert Isaacson: you can section me.
But I guess you can also give me drugs.
Do you think that that's important?
Like in, for you to see the work flourish, and I want to talk
about what it is and how it works.
And you, you mentioned some jargony sounding words about factors and
common factors, which I have no idea what those are, so I'm going
to need you to explain those.
But do you think that Do you think that your medical background makes you?
What, what, what do you think it brings that's special, but equally,
if someone didn't have that medical background, would they be just as good?
Like, just, can you riff on that for, for a minute?
Because I think some of us might think, oh, well, I'm interested in that, but I'm
not gonna go to medical school and I'm certainly not gonna be a psychiatrist.
And then, you know, so talk to us about the what, what it's brought for you,
but also about accessibility, I guess.
Norunn Kogstad: Well, I, I, in, in the States, there are six different
professions that are able to be certified psychotherapist, but
with a psychotherapy training.
And for my part, I think that, you know, to have the medical profession
as a background, is the useful and it gives it an academic and
clinical standards to what I do.
There is, you know, research about the therapist where you can see that
therapists that have high sort of self not confidence, but trust or
reliability and, and low professional self consciousness are the best therapists.
And I do think that, you know, having a profound education does offer, you
know, a support for you to be able to actually accept your own both
faults and, and knowledges and accept.
that you have to make decisions and you have to sort of be
responsible for what you're doing.
And it also opens up for the humbility and to be humble to understand that
the world is not black and white.
On yourself you know nobody and to be a part of somebody else's journey without
coming in there with clear answers and knowing that the world is hard
and it is difficult and it is unfair.
And still having a framework for understanding.
and a framework for, you know, allowing for the difficulties
and, and the injustice to open up.
Rupert Isaacson: So basically what you're saying is you've got to be an individual
who understands the nature of ambiguity.
Yes.
Yeah.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
And, and I think that all of this can be acquired through whatever personality and
life and so, but I do think that having a proper education will help you on the way.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I've just been, while you've been talking, I've been
scanning history of psychotherapy because I wanted to see if I was right, like, is
it a Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung thing, you know, and I'm like, okay, yes, it seems to
be, but then it goes, we went back to some more ancient things, guess who pops up?
As one of the fathers of ancient psychotherapy, at least on this
website that I've been looking at.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, who?
Now, who?
Rupert Isaacson: A man called Xenophon.
Norunn Kogstad: Oh!
And so
Rupert Isaacson: Xenophon, as you well know as many people listening
will know, is often considered to be the father of dressage.
He's actually not, and he never said he was, but he was
writing in 400 BC, more or less.
And he does, in fact, what is true is he does write the first European
book on dressing the horse, but he himself admits in that book that he
learned the whole thing in Persia.
And that, and there are indeed previous Persian writers on the subject, but
Xenophon, as we know, was also a.
student of Socrates, friend of Plato and is regarded as the
father of Stoic philosophy.
So it's interesting that here you are Effectively, with talk therapy, right,
coming from perhaps ancient roots
Norunn Kogstad: of
Rupert Isaacson: a horseman, and it'd be interesting to see how many of the other
people involved in the, in the development of psychotherapy might have been.
I don't know if Carl Jung was involved in horses, for example.
He might have been but talk therapy, you don't talk to horses.
Well, you do, but you know what I mean.
The horses doesn't I guess I we've all seen that meme of the horse sitting on
the couch to the psycho psychotherapist or psychiatrist going, Circles, circles!
All she wants is circles!
I keep giving her circles!
What does she want?
You know.
How does talk therapy, human talk therapy, and horses, what's the connection there?
Because you've got a nonverbal creature and the storytelling speaking ape.
There seemed to be a bit of a Dichotomy there.
So can you explain
Norunn Kogstad: you sort of, you know, mentioned a little bit of
the history and the talk therapy.
Can we go back to that for just one second?
And then we jump into the horses in the therapy again.
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: please.
Norunn Kogstad: Because I think it's, it's really, it's really cool to
understand some of the extremely confusing stuff that happens through history.
Because originally the theologists and the philosophers were the
ones talking to people, you know?
Yeah.
So talking to people that were sick was not considered therapy or
anything close to medical profession.
And then you had the psychologist that in the early 18th century
started investigating human behavior.
utterly uninterested in psychological processes.
You know, they were considering only behavioral, how, how does people work?
How do people work?
What, what are they?
And then came the area of fraud, Freud, not fraud, Freud.
Rupert Isaacson: Now that you could say that's a Freudian.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
Where, where people started getting interested in people's history.
And that was a dramatic change in the medical.
Field because in medical field that had never been considered relevant, almost
before the era of Freud, and he's sort of starting to explore the human psyche.
What what is the human psyche, as opposed to To the psychologist who were only
interested in behavior and testing and functions, you know, yeah, and then
sort of the, the medical doctors in neurologist as Freud was a neurologist
sort of imposed on the theologist
topics where they were talking to people.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And
Norunn Kogstad: then you talk
Rupert Isaacson: to your priest.
Yeah.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
The psychologists are now the one associated with the talk therapy.
What happened when Freud started looking into the human psychology?
What, what is the human psyche?
How, how does it function?
How, what happened to people?
How do they talk about it?
What, what, what, what are people?
People are interesting and they seem to be quite complex.
You know, we tried to talk about trees as being complex, but it
seems like people are actually even more complex and Freud's.
attribution or contribution to the science was just astounding.
So extremely interesting.
I've read I mean, I, I've never read about anyone, any scientist able to
propose theories like he did, and then really getting into it, exploring it.
And if it did not fit exactly, then he would just reject the
whole theory and start over again.
A fantastic capability of renewing himself totally every second year.
And he was, of course, you know, he had all kind of stuff and ideas
and things, but, but reading his, his life is just amazing as a
interesting person, scientist, and quite intelligent when it comes to
understanding the human, human mind.
What psychoanalysis offered was a theory about personality development.
So theory about how we develop our personality.
And also a theory about how the development of the psychology
of a person can go wrong.
So a theory of the pathology of personality development,
and then a theory of treatment.
It must be said that psychoanalysis, you know, the talking cure, as the new,
you know, new modality for therapy.
Freud was not the greatest advocate of the talking cure.
And he also even said that, well, he, he might not be the best candidate for
being a talking cure therapist because of his temper and, and so, but it's it's
a very interesting beginning for the understanding of the human psychology.
What Freud discovered was that the free associations The
way people talk about things.
The associations they have.
The metaphors, the symbols they use.
The dreams they come with.
How they are sort of wired together seemed to be what was important.
in understanding the person in front of you.
Not the words, not the stories, sort of, you know, but the latent
content of what was being conveyed.
And he early on considered that the countertransference, so the therapist's
emotional and practical reaction and experience of the patient was not
relevant because he said that the therapist should be like a blank screen.
That was, of course, a very huge mistake.
And he also rejected
Rupert Isaacson: that, but
Norunn Kogstad: he also rejected that and he also had, you know, the
transference seemed to be the major part of what's going on in a therapy room.
And the transference and the counter transference has, it's sort of, what is
Rupert Isaacson: transference and what is counter transference?
Norunn Kogstad: So transference is what, when I, when I meet you, Rupert,
and I start talking to you, then I will bring in all of my pictures
of, you know, my life from before.
And if I've met somebody who has the same, you know, way of acting in many ways
that you have, I will easily impose my previous, you know, experience into that.
But also if I'm used to meeting wonderful men and they are really, really
abusing me, then I will interact with you as a little bit how I've learned
to interact with men like that, you know, so that will be my transference.
But your counter transference will be your reaction to me back, which will include
all of my transference stuff going on.
Maybe you will meet me and we talk a little bit and you feel really like,
Oh my God, Oh no, something's going on here, but I can't say it from the
words, you know, there's, it just feels like, There is something really
difficult in talking to this person.
We all experience that, you know, when we talk to a person and all of a sudden
we feel like, oh my god, I'm so guilty of your, something went wrong with you.
Was that my fault or what, what happened in this room, you know, that's
the countertransference going on.
And the countertransference has, you know, of course, developed into what
we called, or it's a huge part of what we call the relational psychotherapy.
So when we are together, then.
what's going on inside of me when I'm together with you.
That's the important part of the relational psychotherapy.
And that has been a major, major contribution when it comes to the
attachment research developing with Volbia and his gang in the
seventies, you know, where they talk about the early interaction
and how, how that will influence.
our lives and how we interact with the rest of the world.
So when we talk about quickly, I
Rupert Isaacson: know this is really hard.
Explain attachment.
Norunn Kogstad: So, attachment you can explain it from very many perspectives,
but maybe I'll, I'll try to explain it from a simple neuro emotional perspective.
So Punxsup is a neuroscientist and he proposes sort of this model
of the primary emotional circuit.
So we have seven primary emotions and Punxsup's models, there's a lot
of different models of emotions, but Punxsup's models are now widely accepted
and very useful and I think they're very very useful clinically as well.
And he proposes fear, aggression, anxiety, care, seeking and lust as
the main, main emotional circuit.
So in the, in the panic circuit, What he proposes is that when a young
baby of a mammal gives out the cry like that this, we all heard babies
or dogs or puppies or kittens or whatever who gives out this cry.
And then the mother will react immediately and it's an instinctive response like,
Oh my God, there is this instinct response to that kind of infant cry.
And well, what Panksepp sees is that when, when the anxiety in the
infant is activated and this primal cry comes out, then there will be a
correspondent activation in the care.
care person or care individual, so that sort of the circuit of anxiety
and the circuit of care will fit together and belongs together.
And that's the neuroemotional way of understanding this attachment
that we are linked together.
The
Rupert Isaacson: mammalian caregiving system, basically.
Yes.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
And the attachment research showed that the interaction with early care girls.
will give the print on how you will operate in the world.
And they have four different types of attachment models based on which
circumstances you grow up in and the understanding of this relational
dynamics with the early caregivers from first second of living.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, it's, it, I think a useful piece of mentorship
that I got Which I think helps understand this, was from spending so much time
with the Bushman, son, Khoisan Bushman, in the Kalahari, and watching how
complete and unconditional love, and including the kids in every single thing
that was going on, because they're on your back, so they watch you track,
they listen to the conversations, they see you engaging in every activity,
and then little by little they just but also they've been cared for all the time
because you would never let your kid cry it out in another room because as soon
as the kid cries, the hyenas go lunch.
And you would never put your kid away from you, even in the hut, because the
hyenas will come into your heart at night.
They'll find a way and they will absolutely take your kid
and we'll never hear them.
They'll be, you know, so.
You would never dream of putting your kid over there.
You would put it between two adults to keep it warm and to
protect it and so on and so on.
And that this is just how human life has evolved.
And so a baby, if it cries and cries it out thinking on some fundamental level, Oh
shit, the hyenas are going to come get me.
Nobody cares.
And you know, many of us have wondered how much of our quote unquote stuff goes back
to that primal experience of just having been made to cry it out as babies because
most people from certainly my generation.
Okay.
So let's say in that case, I perhaps have insecure attachment, right?
Would that be correct to say?
Because I would then look for other things to fill the hole
of not feeling attached enough.
And I've done that in many ways in my life.
So I've done thorough research.
I like to think I put the fun back in dysfunction.
So then let's say I am not securely attached and I then end up in, It develops
some pathologies and I end up in front of you with my pathology and perhaps I'm
addicted, perhaps I'm whatever I'm, you know, and I've got something going on
and it's now impacting my life and it's impacting the lives of others around me.
I'm in front of you and you're a psychotherapist and this is
about talk and you're going to now pair me up with horses.
Why?
And what's the benefit?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, first of all, one, when we talk about the attachment
styles and we have the, the safe attachment and the ambivalent attachment
and avoidant insecure attachment, and then the last type, which is a complete
disorganized attachment, then what, what I
Rupert Isaacson: write.
Okay.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
But what I think is really important here is that these are theories.
These are not clinically, these are not psychotherapies, you know, these
are theories for therapists to sort of make a scaffold in your head.
Rupert Isaacson: Like a bit of a framework to work.
Yes.
Yeah.
You
Norunn Kogstad: need to have sort of a framework understanding of what's
going on in front of me, you know.
Because that can help you to be able to just withstand whatever
is going on in the therapy.
And I think quite a lot of, you know, what we learn about how it's so
important to meet each other, understand each other, listen to each other.
It comes with every kind of attachment style you have and whatever kind of
issues or problems or emotional reactions.
they are valid, you know, so it's not like, oh, you have an ambivalent style.
So you're kind of craving stuff.
That's just because you have an ambivalent that it's not whatever
comes up is valid and needs to be responded to and understood properly.
And it's the relationship to the therapist, which is the healing part.
Of what's going on.
If we look at the attachment theory, and I do think that what's really important
to understand in in that aspect is that
what is that relationship, you know, because Transcribed When when you come
to me, then there needs to be some fundamental thing going on between me
and you for you to have a relationship with me where you can experience
what's important for you and where you can start to explore what's going on
inside of you because we all suffer.
We all feel bad.
We all have horrible, horrible illnesses, but to alleviate that suffering to be
able to live with yourself and your needs.
and who you actually are.
That's, that's what I think about real psychotherapy.
It's not fixing, we can't fix history.
History is history, but we have to fix the responses.
We have to fix the suffering to the responses that we have in our body.
And
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that makes perfect sense.
Why horses?
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, and when I include people who has experienced a
lot of, a lot of difficult things, you know, and they have a lot of reactions
and they often have immense amount of self hatred and shame going on.
And it takes a lot of time in an office, even though I have a nice office.
I've built an office, which is not a white office, but it's, it's a cozy,
I'm trying to make it, and it, I don't think, I don't believe in the neutral
therapist, so it's my office, and this is the place, and I want to show you that
you are important, and this is a this should be a good place to be, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, your dog is there too, which is
Norunn Kogstad: my dog is there and she loves my clients and she develops
a very special bond to each client.
You know, she's, she's quite undernourished when it comes to
care, but she can, she can manage.
So, but it takes a lot of time for people who has had a lifetime of.
Self hatred, trouble rejections violence to, to, to come to that space where we
can be together and trust each other.
And what I think is really needed, I think it's really nice to, to look into
some, some of this basic understanding of the human social interaction needs.
And by that I can, for example, polyvagal theory that I think can give a good,
a good way of looking at the social engagement system that we need each other.
We need to feel contact.
We need to feel seen.
We need to feel understood.
It's not the absence of threat that determines whether you feel safe or not.
It's the presence of connection.
These things make sense to me, you know?
And when I bring people to the horses.
People quite often, we start by just observing the horses, talking about
what's going on, what are they doing.
And people quite often say very quickly, you know, when
I came here, I was stressed.
When I leave, I feel relaxed.
And very quickly in that first session, when they start observing the horses,
this very profound metaphors, symbols, the way of looking at the world and people
comes up when we look at the horses.
I, I just did a study interviewing youths that, and that were included
in psychotherapy with horses.
And they had some fantastic comments about the first session with the horses.
One of them said that, you know, we stood there, looked at the horses.
It was really freezing cold.
It was really boring.
And I felt horrible.
I didn't trust anybody.
And then by just looking at the horses after some time,
it was actually kind of nice.
You know, I could stand there with my pain and my emotion
and feeling bad in the group.
And all of a sudden it was okay.
And this person was quite sure that It would be impossible for him or
her to continue in a group session if there were no horses present.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
Why did just the presence of the horses make that person feel better?
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, exactly.
Why?
Rupert Isaacson: Here's the thing.
You can totally understand the dog, right?
You
Norunn Kogstad: know,
Rupert Isaacson: the dog greets you when you come in.
The dog is very human like in its, in its behavior and its emotional state.
Presentation we know this is why we all have dogs.
Yeah, so I can totally see you're feeling like shit.
You've come to your, your psychotherapist.
They've got a nice dog.
The dog greets you.
You're going to get, I guess your word would be transference of
emotion positively from that dog.
Unconditionally, they're just happy to see you.
Horse doesn't react that way.
Now aesthetically horses are beautiful.
This we know.
But beyond that beauty, Or is the beauty part of it?
What, what's going on, do you think, before we even get into
how we're working with that horse?
Why does the mere presence of a horse help in this way, do you think?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, I'd love to get into the academics of it,
but let's do that afterwards.
What these young people say, they are, I mean, it's amazing what they say.
They, they have huge problems, huge problems.
And they say, well, you know, the horse, it's not like a dog.
They won't come over and, you know, please you in any way, but they
just require you to be who you are.
And that's kind of uncommon, one of them said.
Isn't that amazing?
The horse just requires you to be who you are?
I mean That's really insane.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and what's interesting about that is that
that's also a perception, right?
Because we actually know if we work with horses, that horses require us
to not be who we are in certain ways.
Like if I'm hungry, the horse requires me not to eat it, you know,
or to override my hunting instinct.
Or if I'm afraid of the horse, it's definitely helpful for me to.
engage in some kind of masking so I don't transfer my Distress
to the horse and the horse.
Oh shit.
What's going on?
Why is this person afraid?
Yeah that so what's interesting is that you know, you hear a lot of people saying
horses Accept you for who you are and I don't know if it's true or not true
I think it that that statement raises as many questions as it does things.
However, I think what is true is it makes people feel that way.
And if horses seem to make people feel that way, and So that begs,
you know, another rather interesting question is why, why do horses
make people feel so accepted?
Why do horses make people feel that the horse only requires
them to be who they are?
What do you think is, causes somebody to interpret that?
And it's a positive thing, but whether it's accurate or not, if it's healing,
hey, we're going to go with it.
But why, why do you think they, they come to this conclusion?
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, I'm really, really, really intrigued by that as well.
And I tried to look at it from, you know, the perspective of their experience,
how they describe the interaction.
They immediately, most of them immediately say something about one
of the horses being similar to them or special to them, or something goes on
in them relationally towards one horse.
So there seemed to be some sort of immediate, you know, attraction
towards the horses in a way.
Rupert Isaacson: Almost allegorical immediately.
Yeah.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: But why?
What's going on in the human psyche with that?
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
I think that's amazing.
I mean, from an academic side, what I, what I'm thinking and that what we are
looking into from the videos that we're doing is that, you know, this ability
of the horse to notice and be aware of so many things in its surroundings
at once seems to be magic for people.
So does a dog not
Rupert Isaacson: do that too?
It doesn't
Norunn Kogstad: seem like that.
It seems like horses are able to respond and notice more things in the surrounding
without physically and acting towards it.
So it seems like, well my theory, I don't know, well my theory is that
when people come in with some sort of physical sensation and they're being
responded to without being overwhelmed with, you know, huggings and licking
or barking or whatever, but just small, small, small, like now, when I said that
you started nodding your head, it's a very small thing, but I felt seen and
understood sort of, it feels comfortable.
It feels like you're listening to me.
It feels like you understand what I'm talking about.
It feels really good.
If you would sort of just think about something else, chewing
some food, get going away from the picture, you know, I would feel like.
Hello.
Am I, you know, getting through here?
And this feeling of these micro things that you're doing right now, the way
you blinked right now, it was like, you were like, yeah, you know, it
feels like you're conveying a lot of messages that my body immediately
responds to, even through the screen.
I think that's quite much more potent and powerful when we're in the same
room, but even through the screen, I can feel this sort of understanding
and connection and interest, you know, and that does something to me.
I think it does more to my physiology when we're in the same room, but
still through the screen, it does quite a lot of things to me, like when
we're done research on physiologic or the physiology behind regulation.
And you look at infants as we know something about that when babies
have not been touched or cared for, they will die before the age of four.
But we also know that, you know, when twins are born, their regulation of
heart rate blood pressure hormones.
And so that's more, more or less a hundred percent.
Relate
Rupert Isaacson: related to
Norunn Kogstad: the dependent on, yeah, another living being, the
twin and infants are very highly dependent on the physiologically
regulation of another living being
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.
Norunn Kogstad: And so we continue when we grow up, we tend to think
that we're grown up, so we don't need this physical regulation, but we do.
We do.
And our, I think our blood pressure, our hormone levels, our circadian
rhythm, I think that's up to 50 percent regulation by physiological
interaction with caring others.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, with social mammals, you know.
Yeah.
Norunn Kogstad: And you, do you know that they figured out that men that
kisses their wives more than six seconds when they leave every morning,
they live like four years longer.
Really?
So go kissing, you know.
Love each other.
Liliana, sorry.
That's the best idea ever.
And I think that there's something about the kiss.
The kiss
Rupert Isaacson: has to last for six seconds.
Norunn Kogstad: Yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: So not, we're not talking pecs here.
Norunn Kogstad: No, no, no.
It has to be six seconds in one batch.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, making a note here.
Yes,
Norunn Kogstad: yes, yes.
It's important.
Do long kisses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, right.
I might go do some research.
I'll speak to you when I'm 90 and see.
Go for it.
So there is something about
Norunn Kogstad: this
physiological regulation that goes on between human and horses, I think.
Which seems to be of importance,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
And again, you could, you can understand this in close quarters.
Once you get within the warmth and you know, you probably.
You might have listened to the podcast I did with Kansas Carradine, you know,
talking about heart math and Linda Townsend Jones talking about heart
math and so on and the electromagnetic resonance of, you know, hearts and
our hearts come into that, you know, electromagnetic field of this very
powerful heart from the horse and boom, we co regulate and get it.
Coherence in our own physiology.
This is now well studied.
There's even, I only discovered back in 1993, there was a study at
the University of Castle here in Germany where I live, which summary
has gone completely under the radar.
But.
Kansas Caridine turned me on to it where they were measuring
photons being emitted from hearts when they're thinking about love.
And she sent me a meme about this and how far it goes and I said, Oh, yes,
gosh, if you had a horse one, you know, you got that kind of co regulation.
Wow.
It'd be a big amplifier.
But I thought, is that real?
That sounds a bit new agey, Anna.
So I went in search of it.
I found the study.
I'll send it to you.
It's that.
And what's so weird is that study for 30, 35 years ago, and we don't know about it.
But I can get that, and obviously you'd have to get over your fear of
horses or the unfamiliarity and is the horse going to hurt me and da da da.
But let's say you've gotten over all that, the horse is next to you and
you're maybe even hugging on it and you're co regulating it, blah blah blah.
That I can get, but when the horse is on the other end of the arena, when
the horse is just standing there in the field, it seems to have a no less
powerful effect, even at a distance.
That is interesting to me.
What do you think about that?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, it's, it's not that difficult to understand really, if you get
into a room of, you know, people you don't know and everybody look really angry, and
then, you know, at the far end of that room, one person turns towards you, smiles
and says, Hi Aru, I'm gonna help you.
I'm here.
What does that do to your physiology?
Oh sure, but
Rupert Isaacson: a horse doesn't do that, a horse is just a horse.
Well,
Norunn Kogstad: maybe the horse actually does that, you know,
with the miniature signals.
When I have people here doing the horse in therapy courses, I put them
out into the field to the horses and I ask them to focus on one horse on
a distance and just notice whatever that horse is doing on a distance.
And that can be, you know, a hundred, 200 meters away, just making note of what
that one horse, what that horse is doing.
And when they come back, they are so filled with
connection with that one horse.
Because what I do hope that we find and what I observe clinically, but this is not
what I've, you know, proven academically as of yet, is that the horse, when
somebody is in its, you know, I don't know how far, but they can see quite
far and notice quite far, then they will immediately be able to respond to
the small, small, small signals of that person just by a flicker of their eye.
Which, you know, physiologically, in that person, will make a
response, I'm being responded to.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Talk.
So, talk therapy, observation of horses, I mean, you might be
talking a bit, but obviously now you're talking about the horse.
You've also talked about your office, which is presumably more talking like
we're talking now, you're seated, you're sitting across from each other.
So can you describe to me an equine psychotherapy session?
I arrive.
Do I first come to your office and talk to you there?
And then we go and we interact with the horses and then we come back into
your office afterwards and we talk again about what our experience was?
Or does it play out differently?
Norunn Kogstad: We have a pre evaluation talk.
Everybody who contacts us is invited to come to my office to have, you
know, a 45 minute talk where we're talking about what we're doing, What
they're looking for, expectations, could this be a fit, you know,
should we go ahead and work together?
And then it depends a little bit on the background, but usually I'll
offer like one or two evaluation sessions where we if we need to do
some diagnostic or if we need to do some formal stuff, we'll do that.
And then we will go to the horses.
When we do the horse sessions, we meet out at the indoor arena
where we have on a sitting area.
We meet there.
We talk about sort of.
topic of today.
What's going on?
And it depends.
Some, some people have sort of a treatment plan.
Some people are in a long process oriented therapy where it's more
in depth experience of what's going on in that day, per day, per day.
When a longer treatment plan, which is not that concrete groups,
often we either have open groups or we are closed to closed groups.
So the open groups is a more psychoeducative group where we go
through specific topics related to that populations and closed groups.
There's a process group where we start the first day by setting
sort of the goals and the thoughts and expectations in the group.
And then we go to the horses, the open groups, more
psychoeducational teaching groups.
We choose the horses the process groups, the patients.
Choose the horses, we bring the horses to the indoor arena, we let the horses free,
and we start observing the horses and allowing them to do whatever they need.
And when we have younger clients or more disorganized clients, then
we do more structured activities, and we have a shorter period
of, unstructured observations.
We do minor observations where we communicate together like,
Oh look, there's movements.
What's going on over there?
Who of these horses would you have been if you were a horse?
And then straight to greeting the horse.
When people are longer into their therapy, they can spend almost a whole
session just observing the horses.
Having metaphors, thoughts, projections, thinkings, looking
how things play out, requires quite a lot of patience, calmness,
and stability inside of yourself.
And it needs to be experienced as meaningful and interesting
and sort of powerful.
I know in some trauma centers, they only do observing of horses, but maybe
only five minutes, and then spend the rest of the week working with
sort of ideas, thoughts, projections, fantasize, associations, and so
that came up from just that Brief observational interaction with horses.
And then after the horse session, when we end the session with the horses, then I
will sort of say, okay, we are approaching the end of the session for today.
Let's bring the horses out.
And then usually we have like a very short closing circuit by the end.
anything in particular that came up that, you know, people would like
to say about today or something.
And then we allow as much as possible to be brought into the next session.
And then we bring up the next session, what happened in the last
session, if it comes up naturally.
Rupert Isaacson: If they're coming to you, is it like they
do 12 sessions or they do 25?
In groups,
Norunn Kogstad: groups are six sessions.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Norunn Kogstad: And individual patients are, yeah, different,
come totally different on what, what, what the question is.
Is there sort of an
Rupert Isaacson: average?
What did you say?
Is there sort of an average where you sort of see this profound change
happen by a certain time and then the point where you feel, or they feel.
Okay, they sort of don't need to come anymore or do people come indefinitely?
Norunn Kogstad: I have some patients combined office therapy and horse
therapy for years, for many, many years where we have both the severe
pathology, but also our continuing, you know, self development quest.
And also some people that comes in for supervision around the, their relationship
and interaction with their horse.
But I'd say that the major part of the individual clients I
have is from six to 12 months.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
And what happens at the end of that 12 months?
Do they feel like, Hey, I feel better.
And you give them a certificate of betterness and off they go.
Or how, how does the process of kind of deciding, you know, I'm
okay to move on with the next phase of my life sort of happen?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, usually they buy a batch of 10, 10 sessions.
And then sort of, we, we make a plan for the 10 sessions and then
we have an evaluation and we talk about where we are in the process.
And then we talk about, you know, let's do 10 more sessions and we
have an indefinite period of time.
Or we talk about, I think maybe one period of 10 sessions could be okay.
Now that would be good.
And then throughout those 10 sessions, we will talk about, you
know, this is going to be an ending.
How is that affecting you?
What does that mean to you?
What's going to happen further on?
And how is this process working for you?
Rupert Isaacson: See, I would imagine that I've been to
Lundakarngen obviously a few times.
It's fabulously physically beautiful.
You're on this mountain overlooking this lake.
Your horses are lovely.
And I want to go into your, your life.
Horse welfare and horse care, why they look so good in a minute.
The vibe is just gorgeous.
It's this old Scandinavian farm, beautiful old farmhouse.
So, there must be some sort of grief when people feel they're going to
leave the relationship with you, the relationship with the horses, the
relationship with the place itself.
How do you mitigate that so that they don't then, you know, fall
into some sort of pathology from the grief of just not being able
to hang out at Lunderhagen anymore?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, you know, I do work quite a lot with patients who has
severe symptomatology on different levels.
And most of my patient has been in many, many therapy, whatever kind of
things before, and they bring along with them major amounts of rejections,
disappointments anger, grief and, and we, we almost always start by
working with that quite immediately.
And for many patients, you know, the first half year is about
how to cope with, because every ending is going to reactivate.
early rejections, right?
Losses and griefs, you know, and then we really need to get, get to that
before we can really get to the process.
And then we can start working on the ending as its own process.
For many patients and I rarely spend less than three months working on unending.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay What is the you can't even say reoffending rate or re?
pathology rate or
not falling back down into the hole right once people have have gone
through whatever their What is right for them number of sessions is with you?
I'm thinking about Some research from the University of Bournemouth, which
I think it was the horse course they did into the horse course in The
UK who are interesting people and we've got to have them on the show
Where they had looked at domestic violence a domestic violence
intervention with horses and had found that there was still a 50% decrease
in the violence a year after the e equine intervention had finished,
which is an astonishing, you know.
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So for you, what do you pick up data on that as well?
Like what's the, the after effects once people have gone
through their lunda, Hargan?
Norunn Kogstad: I don't have data on that, but the, my clinical experience is that.
the, the, what would you call it?
The patients that decide for themselves for how long they want
and who can be a part of making the treatment plan and endings.
They, they rarely come back.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you get to, do you have any way, has there been follow up,
you know, even if it's unofficial where you kind of keep a bit of tabs on people?
Yeah, well,
Norunn Kogstad: they can recontact me.
Rupert Isaacson: Say that again.
Norunn Kogstad: They can re contact me.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So
Norunn Kogstad: we have the agreement that you know within so
and so long You can re contact me and you can always be re referred.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so they always have the the idea that the door is open
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, while while patients that have a limited amount
of time even because either because they're government if Governmentally
funded or if they're from an institution, I'd say that the relapse
rate there is You Yeah, I don't know.
Pretty high.
Rupert Isaacson: What's, what's the, I mean that's very honest to admit, what,
what's the What is the solution for that if you know, okay, these people are coming
for this very set, perhaps rather minimal period of time with me, you yourself,
just because of your own emotion, must find that saddening to think.
Yeah, they're very likely to relapse.
The rates could be quite high in your view.
What?
What's the best way to mitigate that minimize that?
And how do you deal with that?
Norunn Kogstad: But, you know, I, I, I really, I'm really, you know, strongly
thinking that I, I'm not going to be able to fix things in six times.
I mean, that's not real, but, but, but I find it really meaningful.
And I find that many of the clients that come here, even for just six
times, even if they relapse, or even if things becomes difficult, then.
Making these six times the most useful and the most meaningful possible.
And we all agree, you know, if you have some sort of severe.
issue, then six sessions is not going to change a lifetime of, of things.
So we all agree on that when we start.
And we talk about that and we talk about the ambivalence of, you know, life.
And we talk about the difficulties and we talk about sort of, you know,
if you come in and you're a substance use disorder patient with huge trauma
problems, criminal background, and you're like, I just want a family and a job.
No, that's really cool.
It might take some time, you know, so we just talk about what's, what's
real, what's reality going on.
And I think it's important to be, you know, to be reasonable and to be sensible.
I am no magician.
I'm just here to be a part of,
Rupert Isaacson: I think what you're putting your finger on is
that you are the, you are a good chapter in somebody's life story.
Yes.
And if that chapter can then inform further good
chapters, that's a good thing.
You know, I often struggle with this with the horse boy work and,
you know, movement method work.
There are some families who we worked with for years and we saw amazing
outcomes or even short times we saw amazing outcomes and other families
who went away and then perhaps fell into some really difficult situations
and then your, your heart really went out to them and thought, well, yeah.
But then some.
Now I've sort of been in the game for upwards of 20 years.
I've seen some of those families then recover and interestingly use the
resilience that they learned while they were or Helped to learn while
they were with us kick in and I've even had some people come back and
say hey look it was actually those times at Horseboy or those times You
know another Horseboy place might not even been ours that So when I did fall
back in that hole, I had more tools.
So I think the reason I ask that question is I think a lot of people,
when they're getting into this world of equine assisted stuff it can be daunting.
When you realize that despite the miracles horses bring, those
miracles might be in the moment, but they might or might not be.
carry over.
But at the same time, then there's a secondary set of miracles that can
happen, where there's almost like a gestation period or a myelination
period, where those resilience tools that the horses gave then can
sort of resurface at a later date.
And I think That's perhaps something that's not talked about very much.
We tend to think in terms of, you know, six month follow ups or a year follow up.
And that actually brings me a bit more to your personal story, because
you, you know, yourself have told me a little bit about how you
got into this in the first place.
And none of us, or very few of us, I think, get into this kind of
work, because we wake up at six.
You know, years old going, I want to be an equine, you know, psychotherapist
or me going, I want to run, you know, do this horse boy thing.
And it's not like that at all.
I, as everyone knows, you know, fell into it.
Because my, of my son and stumbled into something that worked and then sort of
kept doing it because why would you not?
but I think most of us have a personal reason why and we also know that we
are ourselves the metaphors of going of the ups and downs of life and The
consistency of horses in our lives and nature in our lives, you know is what
Keeps us thriving, not just surviving.
Talk to us about you.
What brought you to Lunderhagen?
Take us back to your girlhood.
You've told me stories of being up on them in the mountain with your horse
Really in the wilds as a young girl.
Why what took you there?
What are you looking for?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, you know, I could I could talk about that.
I was always curious about nature and I loved being with animals.
I was crazy about horses from age of two and I came from
absolutely no horse family.
And I grew up with a single mom and she was she had She had her own struggles and
she was working a lot and we were moving a lot and somehow I found it really hard
to sort of fit in, adjust to my family and to whatever place I was moving here
and there and hoping to find something and also with extreme amount of energy.
And just the other day I was added on Facebook, you know, this new
thing on the internet by a woman.
Who, who lived in the same city as me when I was like, maybe 13 or 14.
And all of these memories came back because.
She was, she's grown up to be this beautiful, very nice, she's a politician
or advisor for politics or something.
And I looked at the pictures of her and her friends and I realized
that, you know, I knew those girls.
I knew them when I was, you know, 13, 14, 12, 15, whatever.
And I knew a lot of really nice people at that time.
And then I remember that once I was out riding, I had an Icelandic horse at that
time and we were roaming everywhere, up in the mountains, out in the fields.
And I was out riding and I met one of the guys in that group of people and I was
talking to him and he was really nice.
He was just being, you know, normal, polite.
Hi, how are you doing?
Oh, nice horse, whatever.
And I remember a distinct feeling of I can't do this.
I have to get away.
And so I said, bye bye.
And I took my horse and I rode.
And I think it was not very long after that I moved away from home.
And I'm, I had, I knew a lot of people in that area and they were quite nice,
you know, quite nice group of people, but there was something inside of me.
It was not them, but it was something inside of me that was really, upset.
And of course, throughout my life, I've been working a lot
with what's going on in my life.
And I know that, you know, this turbulent childhood of my mom and dad
splitting up and my mom having a lot of work and having a lot of her own
struggles, very complicated relationship and my dad not being present at all.
And somehow inside of me that made some very strong feeling of
not belonging anywhere, I think.
But the stables, I always belonged in the stables.
Wherever I could find a horse, I would feel that I belonged somewhere.
And what I know from, you know, theory of attachment is that it's when you
feel belonged and understood that you start to develop the capacity
to mentalize, understand what's going on inside of other people.
And you start to develop the capacity for empathy.
So I think that, you know, my.
My attraction to the horses and to the stables became
my sort of safe, safe place.
And also, you know, going back to the psychotherapeutic literature and listening
to Bjorn or Winnicott and listening about the The holding environment
and the, the ability to be, to be understood and, and, um, tolerated.
I think that, you know, me growing up in this, I think I was maybe 10 years
old when I started living in disabled.
And I literally grew up in the stable, you know, and when I was 17, I moved
to Iceland to work with wild horses.
And then I came back to Norway and I imported 24 horses from Iceland on
an airplane, and that went completely crazy on the airport in Norway.
So they never ever imported horses by plane to Norway after that.
So horses became sort of a part of my family and my safe place
and my, my, my safe place.
my companion in life.
And yeah, that's the place where I turn to when I'm stressed, when I have,
when there are things going on in life, which is too difficult to deal with.
Then I just go there and I'm, I'm lost with my animals for a while.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
You came, your mum was not horsey, single mum.
Overwhelmed with work, her own difficulties, dad not there.
So, okay, you find your way to stables, but how did you end up owning a horse?
That's a more difficult thing, and that takes a little bit
of obviously financial stuff.
How did you find, how did you manage to put that together?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, I do think that my mom, being overwhelmed with life, I think
she, she had some sensible, instincts.
I think she realized that, you know, if I, if I were just in a stable, I would
be relatively safe and she could go off to work or whatever she needed to do.
So when I was 10 or something, she managed to buy a small pony.
It costs 500 euros, I think, or less.
And I would pay quite a lot for the boarding of that pony,
and it was completely crazy.
Oh, I don't think I could ride him very much because he would just run.
But we had a lot of fun nevertheless.
And we built, you know, obstacle courses in the forest.
And I lived there with him.
And after a while I managed to sell him and buy this Icelandic horse.
And I started working at an early age so that I could
Rupert Isaacson: Right,
Norunn Kogstad: feed them and care for them.
And then
Rupert Isaacson: you've talked about disappearing off into the mountains
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: walked a little bit with you in the mountains
behind your house at Lunderhagen.
It gets pretty wild pretty quick.
So Norway, we know, it's a bit like Canada.
You get out of a certain line of the farmland and boof, it's just
forest and mountain and lakes.
What did you find out there in that nature?
And how was going in there on a horse more healing than just going in on foot?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, it's, it's kind of interesting, you know, in this
a little bit unsettled life getting into nature and this solid concrete.
living environment felt very meaningful and my restlessness could,
could sort of, you know, be useful.
So I managed to get a dog when I was 13.
Then I had this Icelandic horse, and I think I was 14 the first time I
brought him into the wilderness and we And I slept under the, under the stars
and just exploring with those two.
And those were my, my pack, you know, we were the herd out there and he
would be, the Icelandic pony would be even more loyal than the, the dog.
She was a German shepherd, Norwegian moose dog mix.
So if she was hunting, then she would be off for a couple of
weeks and then she came back.
But the pony here would come.
So whenever there was this.
area which was a little bit difficult to to rocky or something then I would let him
loose and I will go first and I would call him and then he would find his way over
the the wetlands or or the stony areas.
And that was, you know, what did I find?
I think, well, it's, oh, that's really hard to say, but somehow
I found myself, you know, I was there with my, my little herd.
And that was, you know, a place in the world where I belonged.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, when I picture that, I picture this younger Noren
up out there in this beautiful wilderness with this loyal pony
and this selectively loyal dog.
The word that springs to mind is joy.
The joyful picture and you know, to be out there, there's the moose,
there's the deer, there's the bears and there's the trees themselves.
There's the berries, there's the birds, there's the insects,
there's the, you know, it's nature.
Exploring joyfully, as you said, that was a very nice thing that you said that that
was where my restlessness was useful.
And feeling useful, of course, is feeling purpose
Norunn Kogstad: is
Rupert Isaacson: fundamental to feeling joyful.
And we talked about what can psychotherapy do.
If it's alleviating suffering, and it's funny you said that as I was making a note
saying, how does this alleviate suffering?
And then he immediately started talking about alleviating suffering.
I can absolutely see the joy having also experienced it myself of disappearing into
the world, into nature with your horse.
And although I've done it on foot and I've done it in canoes and
I've done it in many other ways.
And I, absolutely endorse them all as agents of joy.
I think for those of us who are horse people, it is never more joyful
than when we're with our horse and connecting with our horse in that way.
When let's say I'm a patient though, and I'm coming to you and despite the fact
that Lunderhagen is in this beautiful setting We're in standing in an indoor
arena, or we're you know looking out into the field We're not out there in
the wilderness the alleviating suffering.
Here's my question.
Where's the joy?
Norunn Kogstad: I
I'd say that when I bring clients to my horses whether it's into the herd
or the horses into the indoor arena and people get to You Interact with them,
get to know them, explore the contact.
I think what most frequently comes up is joy.
and this spontaneity that we allow for and encourage and this individual exploring.
We do sort of, we do quite a lot of work at Liberty and relational work, exploring
things together with the horse, but you also do some basic teaching that many
clients find comforting, you know, but the teaching will always allow for individual
exploring and different solutions.
It's not, you have to keep your horse on the right side,
holding this hand like that.
It's more, we need to have this communication going where you can
sort of, you know, convey to the horse that you need to move now, and
we're going to move in this direction.
And then how do we figure out a language between the two of you, you
know, and to see some of the clients.
dancing around with the horses.
It's just amazing.
So we always say that, you know, when you lead the horse from the stable or from
the fields into the indoor arena, then remember that this, this horse is attached
to you now, you know, through the rope.
So you need to be really careful where you put that horse, because it's going
to be uncomfortable for that horse.
You cannot move away if there's a situation or another horse close to it.
And it's fantastic how people immediately understand that.
Okay, he's attached to me.
It's not they're leading the horse, but the horse is attached to you.
And they become so responsible so quickly.
And the other day we had a group.
And one of the guys in the group, he was completely chaotic.
He's gonna be in court after the therapy session.
Up and down, hysteric.
And we were thinking, oh my god, okay, so, yeah.
Well, go pick a horse.
And he would find the horse, and before we could talk to him, he had put the
halter on and turned the horse around and started walking in one direction.
And the horse stepped on him.
Of course.
I mean, that happens when you're completely chaotic around a horse.
There can easily be a human foot under a horse foot.
He was like shocked, Oh my God, of the pain and realization that
something is going on here and have to interact with this animal.
And he didn't talk too much about that, but then he went into the indoor
arena and he started doing some of the exercises that we have been practicing,
how to communicate with this horse.
And after a while, he definitely didn't do anything that I suggested,
he just did it completely his way.
Him and the horse, they found something that they were doing and they were
completely in their own bubble.
And then after a while, this horse had never participated in that kind
of therapy before, so it was a little bit interesting to see how she would
react to being a part of that therapy.
And after a while, he would just take off the leash.
the halter and everything, while the others were still doing their things.
And then he would just lead his forehead onto the forehead of the horse.
And they were standing completely silent together.
That was a very special moment for me because I was so happy that the
horse was allowed to participate in a therapy session like this,
you know, and really communicating with this but the joy on his face.
After that session, that was just, he was completely calm in his
face and his body, and he was so filled with, this was fantastic.
This was so much fun.
We could communicate.
We were there together.
And he had no idea that the rest of the group were doing something
completely different, you know, but the joy of this was extreme.
And in my interviews of the young people, what comes out the most.
It was so cool, you know, we could bring the horses along that road or
we could walk through the obstacle course or, you know, it was so cool.
We could talk to each other and communicate about which
horses we wanted to include and.
we could be together in what we're doing.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, taking a few notes,
it seems that what you, you've been highlighting is specific components
of joy, which I would like to just go over for the benefit of the listeners.
And I want to, Nora, and I'd like you to give your two cents
on whether you agree with this.
So I'll pose a question.
Is joy
a component, a sort of composite?
of a certain number of components.
Because we, we, we talk about a difference between, we have the word
happiness and we have the word joy.
And that's to some degree interchangeable, but they're also different words.
And I think they carry a slightly different thing.
I think we think of happiness perhaps as
a lower state and joy is a higher state somehow.
So go back to you in the mountains.
I was picturing you in the nature, and I was picturing the components of the
nature, the trees, the animals, the birds, the insects, the flowers and the
picture of you and the horse and the dog.
But you said, They were my pack.
That led me to make a little note here of a question is, which is belonging.
And is Belonging,
because with belonging, okay, I also wrote dancing with horses, Joy, they're
attached to their horses and they're dancing with horses and how can that
not make one joyful you'd think.
But it's belonging, Joy, and then with belonging comes,
of course, responsibility.
You said you're attached to that horse and how quickly they
figure a sense of responsibility.
And of course, what's responsibility but purpose and a sort of mixture
of a purpose and achievement.
Are necessary components for joy
a sort of a happy experience?
So let's say that's being in nature with the horse, or dancing with
the horse attached to the horse.
But then this feeling of my pack, I and this horse, or I and
this herd of horses, I belong.
And now with that belonging comes a responsibility, purpose and achievement,
and that elevates happiness to joy.
Is something like that going on?
Norunn Kogstad: I think you're you put, you put so many
important components into words.
I think the word that we, we need to include is love.
Rupert Isaacson: Love.
Speak to me of love.
Norunn Kogstad: Well, when we talk about, I think love, And
empathy needs to be important part of a good relationship and also
a good therapeutic relationship.
Rupert Isaacson: Someone might say, well, okay, these people come through the door.
They don't live with you.
They're not part of your family.
And they're coming in a professional capacity.
So.
How does love come into this?
Can you tell us that?
Norunn Kogstad: Well,
I think many of my clients, they say when they have met the horses
once or twice, they say that it's so crazy, you know, I feel so filled
with love when I leave from here.
And I think that in talk therapy, what I aim at, I mean, it's really
important to work with people that you also feel a certain match with,
because I need to care for my patients.
I need to really be in tuned into and to, you know, activate my
empathy and my mentalization skills.
and my ability to tune into their suffering without judgment,
without becoming, you know, some sort of condemning figure.
And I think that's a major part of love.
And I do think that somehow people when they meet the horses and they
can feel them physically, oxytocin, you know, social bonding relations
being responded to, they quite easily feel connected to, to, to love and
relationship and understanding and care.
And I think that's a huge component and it's very empowering, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You know, you were, you were, we were talking perhaps 30 minutes ago
about Well, if someone is, what is it about the presence of horses?
Is it their physical beauty?
What is it?
But I think you've hit on something there, where I think all, all, all
beings embody love, because love is actually what the universe is
composed of, at least I believe that.
I think, though, that horses embody it in a way that speaks to the
human in a very particular way.
Because you say, well, why not a dog?
Dogs are full of love.
You know, they offer us love.
That's why we keep, you know, that's why we have them, really.
These days.
It seems though that horses, they have this thing where they
stand apart from us, as you said, the dog comes, wants to please.
And actually we know horses kind of want to please as
well, but it's not as obvious.
So perhaps it's this feeling of being accepted and therefore perhaps loved
by something that's independent.
Of one and beautiful and iconic horses are beautiful and iconic.
So it's almost like being accepted and loved by the best looking person in the
room sort of thing, who is so glamorous and is so interesting and is so and
wow, they've accepted me, little old me, you know, gosh, that makes me feel
joyful and that makes me feel loved.
And whether or not that's actually going on in the horse's brain, or
not doesn't matter in terms of the effect that it has on the human.
Norunn Kogstad: Not only that they feel love, but by feeling understood.
and accepted, they feel love for the other.
And I think that's the most healing part.
Rupert Isaacson: So that brings us, of course, to the horse themselves.
For a horse to offer well being, a horse must have well being.
For a human to offer well being to another human or to a horse, the human
must have well being, self care, welfare.
One of the things I've noticed when I've come to Lunderhagen
is the horses look fabulous.
What do I mean by that?
They've got top lines they're muscled, they are supple.
Their coats are shining.
They're happy when they interact with each other.
I'm working with a hospital in a country I won't disclose because the
And they have a, they have a small equine program to a mental hospital.
And they want, they know they need to change, but They're having
trouble figuring out how, and we're trying to help them with that.
And it's pretty clear the horses do not have any well being.
They're sad looking and sad acting.
Yours are not.
They look physically fabulous.
Like I say, they're muscle, they're real athletes.
You, they come into the presence like, Hey, yeah, what's shaking?
What do you do?
How do you?
For those people who are out there running programs, I think everyone would like to
have horses that look and act like that.
So what's the Lunderhagen way?
Tell us, tell us your program for your horse welfare and well being.
Norunn Kogstad: Well, that's extraordinarily
kind of you to say, and it makes me very happy that you say that.
Well,
for psychotherapeutic reasons, you know, when I include horses into to therapy
I think it's really a good idea to include horses because they are horses
and to be really clear about why we would like to include horses instead of, you
know, dogs or camels or wheelbarrows or, you know, instruments or something.
Which I think can be fantastic, all of them.
And for me, the, the relational kind of work that I do in psychotherapy,
there is You have the behavioral kind of work and the cognitive therapies and
the interventional kind of therapies.
And then you have more of the relational kind of work that we've been
talking about what's going on inside of me when I'm together with you.
And how do we work with the empathy and the mentalization capacity and
development of functional strategies to get what you need in life.
But we also have sort of the conflict level.
So what's going on inside of you.
What kind of defeat self defeating sort of systems and programs and
stuff and whatever are you doing, and I mean, I'm in both of those, I work
in the relational, you know, field and I work in the conflict field.
And when considering relational work.
It's super important that we.
include the horses into the relational work as well.
If I'm not treating my horses as a sentient being, how am I going to
expect my clients to learn about relational real work of what's going on?
Which means number one, I need to know my horses.
I need to have people on team who really knows horses.
I can really be open minded.
Like we talk about, you know, having the knowledge to be really curious, having
the, being humble enough to say that we might be wrong, we're exploring this.
And we need to sort of accept.
that something is going on here and we don't always know what's going on
and we need to understand that each horse is a individual on its own with
its own needs, history, background, you know, personality, and so on.
But to strive for the most knowledge available about horses and our horses,
we is essential for good psychotherapy.
Because when we're doing, when we're observing horses and people are,
you know, all kinds of projections, metaphors, thinking about what's going
on there in a group, one person can say, look, the horses, they hate us.
They don't want to have anything to do with us.
And another person will say, Oh, all of those horses are so cute.
They really want to hang out with us.
One person will say that horse, he's really, you know, very, very, Narcissistic
and disgusting and he has so many opinions about things and another
person will say, Oh, look at that horse.
Maybe, I think maybe he has, you know, pain somewhere.
So we immediately get so much metaphors and so much projections and so much
thinkings about what they see, which will immediately inform us about how
do they sort of operate in the world.
And how can I understand the way you approach other living beings, you know,
but if I don't have the capacity to, in my head at the same time, be a part of what
they're experiencing and silently also be able to observe the horses for, you know,
what's going on out there, then I think we are prone to go into the enactment of
the pathological structure of our clients.
So to provide the best practice possible, good horse knowledge is
essential in my world when you work in a relational kind of setting.
And that's sort of the, the main goal for the interaction and the structure.
And when, when we work in that world, then each horse becomes really
important and each horse physical needs.
So I think that, you know, for some of our horses that are actual able
to go back to back in sessions for six hours in a day, it's amazing.
It's quite demanding, but, but some of them are really able to do that.
Then I need to provide them with a.
Surrounding in a life that makes them able to do that because they're
my best colleagues, you know, and then some of our horses, they can
do one, maybe two sessions a week, if not, they're going to check out.
So we encourage our horses to say no.
We encourage our horses to opt out.
And our clients, they love that.
When they come and they choose three horses and one of the horses
says, not today, no, thank you.
And we say, Oh, I think he said, Nate, no, thank you today.
Let's take another one.
And they're like, Oh, it's so fantastic to see.
He can say no.
Oh my God.
Maybe I can say no too.
That's wonderful.
So, so that's a huge major part of how we interact with our horses,
but then it's, it's, it's hard to do all these sessions back to back.
So they need to have physical strength as well.
And I've learned a lot from you, Rupert, of course, and I'm really
inspired by, by your thinking of the, the physical needs of the horses.
We've always been sort of concerned with physical needs of the horses, that they
need to be, you know, at the medium level of physical strength and that their body
needs to be sort Okay, arranged, but we have placed even more emphasis on that the
last few years and also the way of working with them that we're always considering,
you know, what do they think about this?
How can we show them?
And what we see is, of course, that whenever we give the horses choice and
we show them what we want, then they have a tendency to say, yes, I'll do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you talk us through the basic weekly.
Program that for mental and physical well being that you have for your
horses because you've got a variety of different horses you've got everything
from fancy ish warm bloods there to you know, good working Fjords and Icelandic
ponies and minis and you got you got all sorts there and different types
different needs and you've got some really happy old seniors who are still
feeling pretty good in themselves.
So, but there's a common denominator in how you're approaching how they're
living and what they're doing and how they're worked out physically
and how they're worked out mentally.
Talk us through the living conditions and talk us through the
physical workouts that they do.
Norunn Kogstad: So all of our horses live in herds.
And our herds are now divided on the basis of, you know,
their needs, nutritional needs.
We have some horses, fjords, they don't need food.
They rock, that's
Rupert Isaacson: true, yeah.
Norunn Kogstad: Then we have some warbloods and some ponies that need,
you know, unlimited amount of food.
So right now they're divided into two herds of needing food, not needing food.
And then they live outdoors in big, As big as possible areas.
Maybe it could be bigger always, but we try to give them a variety of of areas to
explore and they have good sleeping areas.
And of course, hot water in the winter.
And so, and then all of them are trained physically either on a treadmill or
in groundwork, dressage or out in the forest at least three times a week.
Rupert Isaacson: When you say treadmill, do you mean a water treadmill, like a Yes,
Norunn Kogstad: yes, we have a rehabilitation facility
for horses on our farm.
So there's a separate program, another person leading that program.
A horse rehab,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Norunn Kogstad: So,
Rupert Isaacson: those are
Norunn Kogstad: our horses that need to have some more You mentioned
Rupert Isaacson: groundwork, what kind of, and dressage, what kind of
groundwork and dressage are they doing?
Norunn Kogstad: Well, we start off with all of our horses doing a
basic of relational based natural horsemanship groundwork so that they
learn, you know, the basic yields, the basic pressure and release.
And they learn sort of, basic manners that we really need horses to, to know.
So skills, basic skills that they need to know and, and basic skills of how to be
mounted and to some basic desensitization or how to deal with stress and stuff.
And then we proceed to do basic groundwork from the now from the classical
dressage, very much inspired by youth.
From before, I've done quite a lot of basic groundwork from classical
or academic dressage, but we sort of upped that work a little
bit to make it a little bit more efficient when it comes to building.
muscles and body structure really, because the work that I've done
mostly before is fantastic for building relaxation and suppleness.
But I think incorporating a little bit more of the active groundwork makes can
help our horses build even more muscles.
And then, so they do that for about three times a week.
Some of the horses they do jumping without the rider.
So some sort of free jumping.
a couple of times a week, especially during the winters.
In the summers, they tend to just want to sleep when they come
into the shadow in Lindorene.
And then all of our horses participate in some sort of
ridden lessons or instructors.
instructions and so.
We also have a kids riding school on Thursdays, where we do lessons with kids
where they learn to interact with the horses in a, in a more relational way.
And they communicate with the horses with their energy and, and asking
them things in a very nice way.
And kids love it.
You know, they think it's fantastic when I can start to stop a horse
without pulling the reins and so on.
They have a lot of fun doing cool things and they do.
Some trails and we do some working quotation or amount of games things
so that they get, you know, accustomed to a lot of things going on on
them around them and with them, and with different kind of populations.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, you mentioned what you're talking
about here is like a full variety of work, and I think that this is
something which is often neglected.
People often.
We often all of us often over specialize in many areas of our lives And I think
that can end up we can end up projecting that onto our horses And we we know that
we actually like variety in our lives and sense as a purpose But we often say
well I'm a this kind of rider or I'm a that kind of groundwork and then you just
sort of endlessly do that same thing with The horse and they get bored What I like
about what you're saying there is that is that variety they get to live in herds.
Okay, great.
They get to live outside.
Great.
And we also know that's not available to everybody.
So I don't want people to feel bad if they have to keep their horses
in a public stable in boxes or what.
Then it's about making it as good as we can.
But definitely herd structures and living outside is, is,
you know, you have that down.
And you talked about the free jumping as well as the classical work.
And with that, of course, one observes a lot of joy.
Horses basically having a laugh running around what we call crazy time.
I think that's so often neglected.
And again, the trail riding as part of that, you know, outside exploring, brain
building, puzzle solving, going over different types of ground and just being
out there in the, in the environment that the organism is designed to be in.
But I, you know, I've observed your, the way in which you bring that into
working with the clients at the same time.
And I think that's the key.
I think.
So many programs end up in a stressful time conflict where, where am I, how am I
going to find time to condition my horses?
And I see what you've done at Lunderhagen is you've really
figured out how to integrate.
The conditioning of the horse into the sessions with the client.
So the horses are getting their needs met at the same time, which
takes that time conflict out.
I know that you have to leave quite soon and I think a lot of people
would like to learn from Lundehagen.
By the way, they're leaving quite soon so that she can go off and be
with her research advisor for the PhD that will soon be coming out
of Lunderhagen, so that's great.
So I don't want to keep you too much.
How do people contact you and can they come to Lunderhagen and learn?
And I also know that you, every couple of years, you do like a a Congress, like
a, you know, conference there overlooking the lake with different horse people
coming in from all over the world.
Can you tell us, how do people contact you?
How do they come and learn from you?
What do they, what do they need to know?
Norunn Kogstad: So we have a homepage called lundahagen.
no and you are more than welcome to contact me anytime.
The email is post at lundahagen.
no.
Just ask me if there's any questions.
Yeah, the question
Rupert Isaacson: is, you just said that and it sounded like Norwegian.
So can you give us the website and the, and the and the email
in dumbed down English for people like me, what taught London in it.
Norunn Kogstad: So, the webpage is
Lundehagen,
Rupert Isaacson: L U N D E H A G E N, Lundehagen dot N O,
Norunn Kogstad: yes, and the mail is POST, P O S T, at
Rupert Isaacson: Lundehagen.
Norunn Kogstad: Lundiehagen.
no.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Post that.
So
Norunn Kogstad: contact me anytime.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Norunn Kogstad: And
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
So, so, so this conference and coming for courses and learning?
Norunn Kogstad: Yes, we do offer courses.
We have a fundamentals for including horses into services, and then we have
the horse in therapy certification for the horse expert or the people, a person
on the horse, which is dealing with the horses, which is a three level model
together with ethologist Emily Kielsen.
And then we also offer the, the heel, both the workshop, three
day workshop and education.
And next year we'll be coming up with the Lundahagen protocol for interventions
with, with the horses in psychotherapy.
And we, in last year, 2023, we did the seminar on psychotherapy with
horses and a knowledge of the horse.
And in 2026, we will do the next seminar where we're doing the attachment and
personality structure from the horse perspective and from human perspective.
So, welcome!
Rupert Isaacson: Lots to come and learn.
And for listeners don't be worried that it's in a foreign country.
For some reason, Scandinavian people all learn to be bilingual really,
really early, putting us to shame.
We are lazy English speakers.
But what it means is if you're an English speaker and you go up there, everyone
teaching you will be fully bilingual.
It's
Norunn Kogstad: going to be really hard to learn Norwegian because everybody
is going to want to talk English.
Rupert Isaacson: And they speak English better than we do.
So actually I can go to Norway and learn English, which is great.
It's worth going up there.
The approach I think is somewhat revolutionary.
I think a lot of us.
Down here have a lot to learn.
So I'm encouraging you listeners to look into flights to Oslo because Lundehagen
is not only just a beautiful place to hang out and find love and belonging,
but it's also a place to learn everything from classical stuff to natural
horsemanship, to psychotherapy, to.
And
Norunn Kogstad: we hope to have you here soon as well, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you know, I'll, I'll use any excuse to come back.
It's magical there.
But thank you for creating magic for people with horses.
Thank you for explaining to us.
Psychotherapy and equine psychotherapy.
Thank you for giving us insights into what creates joy.
Thank you for sharing your story and you know, I hope to have you on again.
Maybe we could go into some more depth about some of the issues that
we could only touch on this time.
Thank you.
I'd
Norunn Kogstad: love to.
I'd love to.
Thank you so very much, Rupert.
So very much for creating this.
Rupert Isaacson: So run off and do your research and
Norunn Kogstad: I will.
And give my love to your family.
Rupert Isaacson: I will.
And tell your research, uh, supervisor Charlotte.
Greetings from me 'cause she's also another genius.
Norunn Kogstad: Okay.
Thank you so much.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.
Take care.
Norunn Kogstad: Bye-bye.
Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.
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These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that
bring you and your horse joy.
For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.
See you on the next show.
And please remember to press, subscribe and share.