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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Here on Equine Assisted World.

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We look at the cutting edge and the best
practices currently being developed and,

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established in the equine assisted field.

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This can be psychological, this
can be neuropsych, this can be

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physical, this can be all of the
conditions that human beings have.

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These lovely equines, these beautiful
horses that we work with, help us with.

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Thank you for being part of the adventure
and we hope you enjoy today's show

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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We're going to Norway today.

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Amazing, amazing place.

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Amazing person up there, Norun Kogstad.

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She is a psychotherapist who runs an
amazing, I keep saying that word, don't I?

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Because it's true, place called
Lundehagen, halfway up Norway,

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where horse welfare, human welfare,

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psychotherapy, Equine psychotherapy,
the different worlds of equine

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therapy, all come together in a
really unique nexus that I think is

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uniquely Nordic, uniquely Scandinavian
in a way in the breadth of vision.

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I think many of us further down
in, towards the equator, which

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compared to Norway we are tend to
get a bit mired in our local view.

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And I think those people up at the
top of the world the Scandinavians,

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the Canadians, they often seem to have
this sort of slightly broader view.

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It's like they're looking down on
us and sort of going, Oh, look at

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those interesting, funny people down
there or squabbling about things.

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And they seem to provide us with an
interesting example of functional society.

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I think we know this is true in education.

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We know this is true in healthcare.

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We know this is true in just sort of
the public and private sector in general

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compared to further down in Europe.

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North America, etc.

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So, I've always been a bit
intrigued by this, like, why are

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the systems up there so functional?

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And, Norrin is a very good
example of a functional system.

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So, I thought we'd get her
on here to explain that, but

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also, what is psychotherapy?

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And what is equine psychotherapy?

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What even is it as a field?

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And why is it important?

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And how does it relate to what the
rest of us are all doing in this

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great conversation that we're having
about horses and humans and healing.

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So Norun, thank you so much for coming on.

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Can you tell us a bit about
who you are and what you do?

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Norunn Kogstad: Well, first of
all, Rupert, thank you so much for

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inviting me on to this podcast.

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Well, I am Norun, I'm a
psychiatrist and psychotherapist.

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And as you said, I run Lundahagen.

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I've been including horses into
psychotherapy for the last, yeah,

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10 to 15 years, more or less.

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And I sort of been, you
know, a lifelong horse woman.

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I've always been drawn to horses
wherever I were in the world.

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I was always drawn to horses.

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And when, when I heard.

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That it's possible to include
horses into psychotherapy.

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I found that very intriguing.

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So I went ahead and I got to know
this hospital in Norway where they

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offer specialized care, especially
for people who has experienced

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overwhelming experiences like traumatic
events and they include horses.

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And I I got to know the head psychologist
of that apartment and she told me

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that, Well, Norin, if you want to do
this work, you have to go to the U.

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S.

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and do a HEAL education and then
you have to become a centered

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writing instructor and get yourself
a proper psychotherapy education.

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Good luck.

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Quickly,

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Rupert Isaacson: what is HEAL?

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H E A L.

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Why, and why did she
tell you to go do that?

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Norunn Kogstad: Well, HEAL stands
for Human Equine Alliances for

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Psychotherapy and Learning.

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And it's a model developed by Lee Shambu.

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She also worked together with Linda
Kohanov and some other people in the

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beginning of the founding of HEAL.

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And HEAL is emotion focused, body
oriented psychotherapeutic intervention,

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including horses for trauma populations.

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This was back in 2013 when I
did that education in the US.

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And at that time, this, you know, there
was this wave of trauma informed care,

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asking the questions of what happened
to you instead of what's wrong with you.

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And the emergent field of neuroscience
was just opening up to the wide public.

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And it was fantastic for me to come into
to that field through the HEAL model.

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Norway does have its, you know,
functional competence of not being overly

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enthusiastic about new, new things.

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So I wouldn't say that, you know,
the new, new knowledge and the new

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way of looking at relationship and
trauma is very well integrated into

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the system as of yet, but especially
not, you know, 10 to 15 years ago.

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So for me, that was really super exciting
and just, you know, dive into all of

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this fantastic new ways of looking at
people and the body oriented perspective

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from Veselvandar Kolk and, and Pat
Ogden and The Body Keeps the Score and

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how, how that was opening up to so many
perspectives, both on my own personal

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journey and on how to, how to work
with clients and how to open up for the

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Rupert Isaacson: You say that
Norway isn't so keen on new

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stuff and functional in that way.

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However, in the paragraph more or
less before that, you said that

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you had gone to work and learn at a
hospital which offers equine stuff.

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Now, if you're listening to
that as a Brit or as a You think

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hospitals with horses and farms?

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That's not something you really hear.

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So that's an example of what I mean
of perhaps in your perception, things

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move slowly for new stuff up in Norway.

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But from our point of view, looking
up at, say, that health care

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system, that's not something you'd
see at all, you know, in the UK.

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In in the U.

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S.

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probably, you might see it in a
private thing here and there, but you

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certainly wouldn't see it as a sort of
state funded, state sponsored thing.

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Can you just backtrack a little bit?

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Why would you find horses, farms,
nature, in hospitals in Norway?

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Like, what's the history of that,
and what's their logic with that?

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Norunn Kogstad: Well, the history
I think is quite common for both

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the, you know, continental countries
and American countries that, you

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know, there was this huge movement
of moving the, the people back into

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nature and farming and agriculture
and you have the therapeutic society.

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Rupert Isaacson: When was this?

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I don't think it's within living memory.

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Norunn Kogstad: No, no, no.

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That's, you know, a hundred years ago.

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And, and then you have development
of the more therapeutic society

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in the mid fifties maybe.

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where you had the integration of, you
know, the staff and the patients living

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together on the treatment facility,
working together, creating stuff

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together fantastic ideas, but also
some problems of people enacting each

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other's problems, difficulties, keeping
a professional framework and so on.

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But I think in Norway, there has been
a very, a longstanding tradition for

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keeping mental health or mental treatment
institutions in a agricultural setting.

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So all the major old institutions for
mental treatment are actually old farms.

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And Norway has been governed in
a sort of conservative way for

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many years where, where there has
been a strong focus on science.

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And academic and development of treatment
models that modalities that that would

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sort of help populations and help people.

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So by the beginning of the 2000, 2002,
2003, there were three hospitals in

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Norway incorporating equine assisted
psychotherapy in their treatment.

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And this was not based on people
liking horses, but this was

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based on specialist healthcare.

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That found that this population
is really hard to reach.

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How can we sort of, you know,
what can we do to help them?

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And I, I know that the, there are several
places in Europe who started like that

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in the beginning of the two thousands.

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But the, the, the specialists
have now less access to

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developing and utilizing treatment
modalities that they find useful.

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because it costs money.

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And now the healthcare system of
Norway, as many other places, is

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much more directed towards, you know,
the economy of running healthcare.

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Rupert Isaacson: Is it getting privatized?

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Norunn Kogstad: Not yet, but Parts
of it is getting privatized, but

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they're trying to run the public
healthcare system as a private system.

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So it's a very complicated,
very illogical system right now.

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Rupert Isaacson: So, okay.

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So that's where you sort of
fill in the gap, I guess.

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You're running Lunderhagen.

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I've been there.

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It's an extraordinary place.

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I try not to keep saying amazing.

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What I mean by extraordinary is that
what I've noticed when you go there is

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you can look at Obviously psychotherapy,
which is human welfare your standard

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of horse welfare is exceptionally high
and I want to go into that and why in

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a little bit you're doing research?

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There's, you know, a PhD in the
offing, you guys are scientists.

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Obviously there's clinical work happening
as well, there's consultations going on.

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And you're a nexus, you run these
events where different people from

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different modalities can come and
present what they do and add to the

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conversation of equine assisted work.

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It's unusually open minded
rather than saying, okay, we do

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this model or we do that model.

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It's like, no, we're open to all the
models and that, as you know, that's

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not terribly usual in the horse world,
let alone the equine assisted world,

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although hopefully it's changing.

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So you are, funnily enough,
privately filling the public space.

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Sector gap a little bit there, but you're
predicated on psychotherapy and equine

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assisted psychotherapy So here's the
big question I think and I know I would

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be thinking of this if I was driving
listening to this podcast What the hell

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is psychotherapy anyway, like what is it?

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It's a word that people use,
but what the fuck is it?

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Norunn Kogstad: Well, I think The the
theorist, Bruce Wample, he's done a lot of

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statistical research on therapy outcome.

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And he has compiled the model of the
common factors and a conceptual model.

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And there is a huge debate in the
psychotherapy research field as to

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common factor versus specific factors.

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But I think what Bruce van Polt says is
that psychotherapy is an intervention

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that aims at alleviating pain and
create psychological changes and

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it's based on psychological theories
delivered by a trained therapist.

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So I think sort of that way of
thinking is what I would say

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maybe is most understandable.

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Rupert Isaacson: A lot of, we talked
about hospitals, you're also, and I forgot

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to say this in your bios, you're also a
medical doctor and so is your husband.

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Do you have to be a medical doctor
in order to be a psychotherapist

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in the same way that you do
to be a psychiatrist or not?

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Norunn Kogstad: No, not at all.

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And There is a lot of, you know,
misunderstandings about those terms.

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So psychotherapy, that's, that's, you
know, that's a separate education.

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In Norway, only psychiatrists and
psychologists can become certified

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psychotherapists, but there is a lot of
different kind of psychotherapy trainings.

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in brackets, where people learn
something about something, but

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that's, you're not publicly certified
as a psychotherapist, but very few

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psychologists and psychotherapists
and psychiatrists at this date are.

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psychotherapist.

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Rupert Isaacson: Why?

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Norunn Kogstad: Because psychotherapy
education, it's a long education.

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It requires a lot.

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It's very costly.

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It's demanding.

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It's tiresome.

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You even have to have your own therapy
and public funds are very scarcely

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available and the public system
does not anymore see the value of

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psychotherapy when offering therapy.

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Rupert Isaacson: I suppose, playing
devil's advocate, if you'd gone to

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medical school, as you did, and you
went through all those years, and then

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you became, say, a psychiatrist, then
you gotta add all this other training.

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I could see how that might
not be so attractive.

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Quick question, are you
also a psychiatrist?

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Or did you you are?

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So you're a psychiatrist
and a psychotherapist.

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Norunn Kogstad: Yes.

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You're

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Rupert Isaacson: scary.

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Okay.

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Norunn Kogstad: No.

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So

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Rupert Isaacson: you can section me.

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But I guess you can also give me drugs.

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Do you think that that's important?

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Like in, for you to see the work
flourish, and I want to talk

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about what it is and how it works.

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And you, you mentioned some jargony
sounding words about factors and

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common factors, which I have no
idea what those are, so I'm going

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to need you to explain those.

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But do you think that Do you think
that your medical background makes you?

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What, what, what do you think it
brings that's special, but equally,

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if someone didn't have that medical
background, would they be just as good?

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Like, just, can you riff
on that for, for a minute?

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Because I think some of us might think,
oh, well, I'm interested in that, but I'm

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not gonna go to medical school and I'm
certainly not gonna be a psychiatrist.

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And then, you know, so talk to us about
the what, what it's brought for you,

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but also about accessibility, I guess.

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Norunn Kogstad: Well, I, I, in, in
the States, there are six different

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professions that are able to be
certified psychotherapist, but

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with a psychotherapy training.

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And for my part, I think that, you
know, to have the medical profession

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as a background, is the useful
and it gives it an academic and

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clinical standards to what I do.

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There is, you know, research about
the therapist where you can see that

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therapists that have high sort of
self not confidence, but trust or

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reliability and, and low professional self
consciousness are the best therapists.

00:16:00.198 --> 00:16:05.468
And I do think that, you know, having
a profound education does offer, you

00:16:05.468 --> 00:16:10.468
know, a support for you to be able
to actually accept your own both

00:16:10.598 --> 00:16:14.848
faults and, and knowledges and accept.

00:16:15.588 --> 00:16:20.668
that you have to make decisions
and you have to sort of be

00:16:20.668 --> 00:16:22.158
responsible for what you're doing.

00:16:22.208 --> 00:16:26.458
And it also opens up for the humbility
and to be humble to understand that

00:16:26.458 --> 00:16:27.838
the world is not black and white.

00:16:28.258 --> 00:16:35.668
On yourself you know nobody and to be a
part of somebody else's journey without

00:16:35.748 --> 00:16:40.278
coming in there with clear answers
and knowing that the world is hard

00:16:40.278 --> 00:16:42.458
and it is difficult and it is unfair.

00:16:43.478 --> 00:16:46.478
And still having a
framework for understanding.

00:16:47.358 --> 00:16:51.778
and a framework for, you know,
allowing for the difficulties

00:16:51.818 --> 00:16:55.758
and, and the injustice to open up.

00:16:56.528 --> 00:16:58.808
Rupert Isaacson: So basically what you're
saying is you've got to be an individual

00:16:58.808 --> 00:17:00.678
who understands the nature of ambiguity.

00:17:01.298 --> 00:17:01.748
Yes.

00:17:02.168 --> 00:17:02.528
Yeah.

00:17:02.978 --> 00:17:03.298
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:17:03.298 --> 00:17:08.138
And, and I think that all of this can be
acquired through whatever personality and

00:17:08.138 --> 00:17:13.488
life and so, but I do think that having a
proper education will help you on the way.

00:17:14.548 --> 00:17:16.638
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I've just
been, while you've been talking, I've been

00:17:16.718 --> 00:17:20.978
scanning history of psychotherapy because
I wanted to see if I was right, like, is

00:17:20.978 --> 00:17:23.928
it a Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung thing, you
know, and I'm like, okay, yes, it seems to

00:17:23.928 --> 00:17:28.988
be, but then it goes, we went back to some
more ancient things, guess who pops up?

00:17:29.743 --> 00:17:33.553
As one of the fathers of ancient
psychotherapy, at least on this

00:17:33.703 --> 00:17:34.823
website that I've been looking at.

00:17:35.763 --> 00:17:36.543
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, who?

00:17:37.273 --> 00:17:37.953
Now, who?

00:17:38.483 --> 00:17:39.343
Rupert Isaacson: A man called Xenophon.

00:17:40.033 --> 00:17:40.193
Norunn Kogstad: Oh!

00:17:40.773 --> 00:17:41.323
And so

00:17:41.323 --> 00:17:44.053
Rupert Isaacson: Xenophon, as you
well know as many people listening

00:17:44.053 --> 00:17:47.363
will know, is often considered
to be the father of dressage.

00:17:47.363 --> 00:17:50.553
He's actually not, and he
never said he was, but he was

00:17:50.553 --> 00:17:54.733
writing in 400 BC, more or less.

00:17:55.163 --> 00:17:58.433
And he does, in fact, what is true
is he does write the first European

00:17:58.433 --> 00:18:03.323
book on dressing the horse, but he
himself admits in that book that he

00:18:03.323 --> 00:18:04.503
learned the whole thing in Persia.

00:18:04.873 --> 00:18:08.853
And that, and there are indeed previous
Persian writers on the subject, but

00:18:09.223 --> 00:18:11.063
Xenophon, as we know, was also a.

00:18:11.498 --> 00:18:16.118
student of Socrates, friend of
Plato and is regarded as the

00:18:16.118 --> 00:18:19.158
father of Stoic philosophy.

00:18:19.718 --> 00:18:25.823
So it's interesting that here you are
Effectively, with talk therapy, right,

00:18:27.703 --> 00:18:30.663
coming from perhaps ancient roots

00:18:31.333 --> 00:18:31.473
Norunn Kogstad: of

00:18:31.473 --> 00:18:33.943
Rupert Isaacson: a horseman, and it'd be
interesting to see how many of the other

00:18:33.943 --> 00:18:37.723
people involved in the, in the development
of psychotherapy might have been.

00:18:37.723 --> 00:18:40.303
I don't know if Carl Jung was
involved in horses, for example.

00:18:40.473 --> 00:18:46.943
He might have been but talk
therapy, you don't talk to horses.

00:18:47.438 --> 00:18:48.838
Well, you do, but you know what I mean.

00:18:49.028 --> 00:18:52.338
The horses doesn't I guess I we've all
seen that meme of the horse sitting on

00:18:52.338 --> 00:18:56.578
the couch to the psycho psychotherapist
or psychiatrist going, Circles, circles!

00:18:56.578 --> 00:18:57.448
All she wants is circles!

00:18:57.448 --> 00:18:58.388
I keep giving her circles!

00:18:58.388 --> 00:18:58.868
What does she want?

00:18:58.868 --> 00:18:59.048
You know.

00:19:01.368 --> 00:19:06.308
How does talk therapy, human talk therapy,
and horses, what's the connection there?

00:19:06.308 --> 00:19:10.588
Because you've got a nonverbal creature
and the storytelling speaking ape.

00:19:12.068 --> 00:19:15.473
There seemed to be a bit
of a Dichotomy there.

00:19:15.473 --> 00:19:17.543
So can you explain

00:19:18.293 --> 00:19:20.493
Norunn Kogstad: you sort of, you
know, mentioned a little bit of

00:19:20.543 --> 00:19:22.143
the history and the talk therapy.

00:19:22.473 --> 00:19:24.603
Can we go back to that
for just one second?

00:19:24.603 --> 00:19:26.753
And then we jump into the
horses in the therapy again.

00:19:26.763 --> 00:19:27.093
Okay,

00:19:28.083 --> 00:19:28.343
Rupert Isaacson: please.

00:19:29.113 --> 00:19:31.983
Norunn Kogstad: Because I think it's,
it's really, it's really cool to

00:19:31.983 --> 00:19:35.583
understand some of the extremely confusing
stuff that happens through history.

00:19:36.073 --> 00:19:40.813
Because originally the theologists
and the philosophers were the

00:19:40.813 --> 00:19:42.503
ones talking to people, you know?

00:19:43.053 --> 00:19:43.263
Yeah.

00:19:43.263 --> 00:19:47.583
So talking to people that were
sick was not considered therapy or

00:19:47.643 --> 00:19:50.063
anything close to medical profession.

00:19:50.673 --> 00:19:54.463
And then you had the psychologist
that in the early 18th century

00:19:54.633 --> 00:19:56.913
started investigating human behavior.

00:19:57.848 --> 00:20:00.428
utterly uninterested in
psychological processes.

00:20:00.538 --> 00:20:06.518
You know, they were considering only
behavioral, how, how does people work?

00:20:06.518 --> 00:20:07.348
How do people work?

00:20:07.368 --> 00:20:08.278
What, what are they?

00:20:08.848 --> 00:20:12.978
And then came the area of
fraud, Freud, not fraud, Freud.

00:20:14.898 --> 00:20:16.198
Rupert Isaacson: Now that you
could say that's a Freudian.

00:20:17.828 --> 00:20:18.188
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:20:18.588 --> 00:20:22.458
Where, where people started getting
interested in people's history.

00:20:24.028 --> 00:20:28.848
And that was a dramatic
change in the medical.

00:20:29.893 --> 00:20:35.413
Field because in medical field that had
never been considered relevant, almost

00:20:35.443 --> 00:20:43.803
before the era of Freud, and he's sort
of starting to explore the human psyche.

00:20:44.023 --> 00:20:49.773
What what is the human psyche, as opposed
to To the psychologist who were only

00:20:49.773 --> 00:20:55.273
interested in behavior and testing and
functions, you know, yeah, and then

00:20:55.593 --> 00:20:59.733
sort of the, the medical doctors in
neurologist as Freud was a neurologist

00:21:00.293 --> 00:21:01.913
sort of imposed on the theologist

00:21:04.933 --> 00:21:07.193
topics where they were talking to people.

00:21:07.883 --> 00:21:08.153
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:21:08.153 --> 00:21:08.463
And

00:21:08.473 --> 00:21:10.503
Norunn Kogstad: then you talk

00:21:10.503 --> 00:21:11.133
Rupert Isaacson: to your priest.

00:21:11.133 --> 00:21:11.353
Yeah.

00:21:11.793 --> 00:21:12.213
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:21:12.293 --> 00:21:17.353
The psychologists are now the one
associated with the talk therapy.

00:21:18.473 --> 00:21:22.793
What happened when Freud started
looking into the human psychology?

00:21:23.043 --> 00:21:24.403
What, what is the human psyche?

00:21:24.593 --> 00:21:25.873
How, how does it function?

00:21:26.163 --> 00:21:27.573
How, what happened to people?

00:21:27.583 --> 00:21:28.573
How do they talk about it?

00:21:28.593 --> 00:21:30.213
What, what, what, what are people?

00:21:30.213 --> 00:21:33.053
People are interesting and
they seem to be quite complex.

00:21:33.323 --> 00:21:36.803
You know, we tried to talk about
trees as being complex, but it

00:21:36.803 --> 00:21:41.143
seems like people are actually
even more complex and Freud's.

00:21:41.773 --> 00:21:46.943
attribution or contribution to
the science was just astounding.

00:21:46.983 --> 00:21:48.543
So extremely interesting.

00:21:48.593 --> 00:21:55.633
I've read I mean, I, I've never read
about anyone, any scientist able to

00:21:55.883 --> 00:22:00.803
propose theories like he did, and then
really getting into it, exploring it.

00:22:00.803 --> 00:22:04.643
And if it did not fit exactly,
then he would just reject the

00:22:04.643 --> 00:22:06.163
whole theory and start over again.

00:22:06.983 --> 00:22:11.233
A fantastic capability of renewing
himself totally every second year.

00:22:12.158 --> 00:22:15.198
And he was, of course, you know,
he had all kind of stuff and ideas

00:22:15.198 --> 00:22:21.508
and things, but, but reading his,
his life is just amazing as a

00:22:21.818 --> 00:22:25.348
interesting person, scientist, and
quite intelligent when it comes to

00:22:25.398 --> 00:22:27.978
understanding the human, human mind.

00:22:28.398 --> 00:22:35.308
What psychoanalysis offered was a
theory about personality development.

00:22:35.448 --> 00:22:38.658
So theory about how we
develop our personality.

00:22:40.348 --> 00:22:45.868
And also a theory about how the
development of the psychology

00:22:45.868 --> 00:22:47.078
of a person can go wrong.

00:22:47.098 --> 00:22:50.378
So a theory of the pathology
of personality development,

00:22:51.078 --> 00:22:52.848
and then a theory of treatment.

00:22:53.778 --> 00:22:58.668
It must be said that psychoanalysis,
you know, the talking cure, as the new,

00:22:58.669 --> 00:23:01.138
you know, new modality for therapy.

00:23:01.788 --> 00:23:06.118
Freud was not the greatest
advocate of the talking cure.

00:23:06.418 --> 00:23:11.668
And he also even said that, well, he,
he might not be the best candidate for

00:23:11.668 --> 00:23:17.758
being a talking cure therapist because
of his temper and, and so, but it's it's

00:23:17.758 --> 00:23:22.698
a very interesting beginning for the
understanding of the human psychology.

00:23:23.028 --> 00:23:28.968
What Freud discovered was
that the free associations The

00:23:28.968 --> 00:23:30.558
way people talk about things.

00:23:30.928 --> 00:23:32.538
The associations they have.

00:23:33.008 --> 00:23:37.468
The metaphors, the symbols they use.

00:23:37.528 --> 00:23:38.878
The dreams they come with.

00:23:39.288 --> 00:23:47.158
How they are sort of wired together
seemed to be what was important.

00:23:47.518 --> 00:23:49.338
in understanding the
person in front of you.

00:23:49.358 --> 00:23:52.538
Not the words, not the stories,
sort of, you know, but the latent

00:23:52.578 --> 00:23:54.938
content of what was being conveyed.

00:23:56.588 --> 00:24:03.073
And he early on considered that the
countertransference, so the therapist's

00:24:03.073 --> 00:24:08.368
emotional and practical reaction and
experience of the patient was not

00:24:08.448 --> 00:24:12.788
relevant because he said that the
therapist should be like a blank screen.

00:24:13.248 --> 00:24:17.568
That was, of course, a very huge mistake.

00:24:18.073 --> 00:24:20.257
And he also rejected

00:24:20.257 --> 00:24:21.348
Rupert Isaacson: that, but

00:24:22.383 --> 00:24:25.403
Norunn Kogstad: he also rejected
that and he also had, you know, the

00:24:25.403 --> 00:24:29.183
transference seemed to be the major part
of what's going on in a therapy room.

00:24:30.063 --> 00:24:35.943
And the transference and the counter
transference has, it's sort of, what is

00:24:35.943 --> 00:24:37.273
Rupert Isaacson: transference
and what is counter transference?

00:24:37.728 --> 00:24:41.548
Norunn Kogstad: So transference is
what, when I, when I meet you, Rupert,

00:24:41.628 --> 00:24:45.078
and I start talking to you, then
I will bring in all of my pictures

00:24:45.078 --> 00:24:46.728
of, you know, my life from before.

00:24:46.728 --> 00:24:52.618
And if I've met somebody who has the
same, you know, way of acting in many ways

00:24:52.728 --> 00:24:58.468
that you have, I will easily impose my
previous, you know, experience into that.

00:24:58.468 --> 00:25:03.588
But also if I'm used to meeting
wonderful men and they are really, really

00:25:03.638 --> 00:25:08.243
abusing me, then I will interact with
you as a little bit how I've learned

00:25:08.243 --> 00:25:11.883
to interact with men like that, you
know, so that will be my transference.

00:25:12.183 --> 00:25:18.883
But your counter transference will be your
reaction to me back, which will include

00:25:18.943 --> 00:25:20.743
all of my transference stuff going on.

00:25:20.753 --> 00:25:23.573
Maybe you will meet me and we talk a
little bit and you feel really like,

00:25:23.573 --> 00:25:28.453
Oh my God, Oh no, something's going
on here, but I can't say it from the

00:25:28.453 --> 00:25:32.298
words, you know, there's, it just
feels like, There is something really

00:25:32.298 --> 00:25:33.908
difficult in talking to this person.

00:25:34.098 --> 00:25:36.678
We all experience that, you know, when
we talk to a person and all of a sudden

00:25:36.678 --> 00:25:41.228
we feel like, oh my god, I'm so guilty
of your, something went wrong with you.

00:25:41.843 --> 00:25:46.183
Was that my fault or what, what
happened in this room, you know, that's

00:25:46.183 --> 00:25:47.593
the countertransference going on.

00:25:48.293 --> 00:25:53.413
And the countertransference has, you
know, of course, developed into what

00:25:53.413 --> 00:25:57.973
we called, or it's a huge part of what
we call the relational psychotherapy.

00:25:57.973 --> 00:26:00.163
So when we are together, then.

00:26:00.458 --> 00:26:02.798
what's going on inside of me
when I'm together with you.

00:26:03.028 --> 00:26:05.928
That's the important part of
the relational psychotherapy.

00:26:06.318 --> 00:26:10.958
And that has been a major, major
contribution when it comes to the

00:26:11.008 --> 00:26:17.268
attachment research developing
with Volbia and his gang in the

00:26:17.288 --> 00:26:20.728
seventies, you know, where they
talk about the early interaction

00:26:20.738 --> 00:26:23.428
and how, how that will influence.

00:26:23.928 --> 00:26:26.648
our lives and how we interact
with the rest of the world.

00:26:27.788 --> 00:26:30.488
So when we talk about quickly, I

00:26:30.618 --> 00:26:31.298
Rupert Isaacson: know this is really hard.

00:26:31.328 --> 00:26:32.278
Explain attachment.

00:26:33.238 --> 00:26:38.428
Norunn Kogstad: So, attachment you can
explain it from very many perspectives,

00:26:38.458 --> 00:26:46.368
but maybe I'll, I'll try to explain it
from a simple neuro emotional perspective.

00:26:46.368 --> 00:26:50.588
So Punxsup is a neuroscientist
and he proposes sort of this model

00:26:50.928 --> 00:26:53.128
of the primary emotional circuit.

00:26:53.128 --> 00:26:59.028
So we have seven primary emotions
and Punxsup's models, there's a lot

00:26:59.068 --> 00:27:03.318
of different models of emotions, but
Punxsup's models are now widely accepted

00:27:03.318 --> 00:27:06.958
and very useful and I think they're
very very useful clinically as well.

00:27:07.348 --> 00:27:15.698
And he proposes fear, aggression,
anxiety, care, seeking and lust as

00:27:15.698 --> 00:27:17.448
the main, main emotional circuit.

00:27:17.448 --> 00:27:24.288
So in the, in the panic circuit,
What he proposes is that when a young

00:27:24.968 --> 00:27:32.158
baby of a mammal gives out the cry
like that this, we all heard babies

00:27:32.178 --> 00:27:35.998
or dogs or puppies or kittens or
whatever who gives out this cry.

00:27:36.873 --> 00:27:40.863
And then the mother will react immediately
and it's an instinctive response like,

00:27:40.893 --> 00:27:45.893
Oh my God, there is this instinct
response to that kind of infant cry.

00:27:46.573 --> 00:27:51.043
And well, what Panksepp sees is
that when, when the anxiety in the

00:27:51.043 --> 00:27:56.653
infant is activated and this primal
cry comes out, then there will be a

00:27:56.683 --> 00:27:59.513
correspondent activation in the care.

00:28:00.203 --> 00:28:04.723
care person or care individual, so
that sort of the circuit of anxiety

00:28:04.723 --> 00:28:10.033
and the circuit of care will fit
together and belongs together.

00:28:10.683 --> 00:28:14.963
And that's the neuroemotional way
of understanding this attachment

00:28:14.963 --> 00:28:16.503
that we are linked together.

00:28:16.643 --> 00:28:16.773
The

00:28:16.773 --> 00:28:18.593
Rupert Isaacson: mammalian
caregiving system, basically.

00:28:18.613 --> 00:28:19.073
Yes.

00:28:19.073 --> 00:28:19.223
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:28:19.303 --> 00:28:19.703
Yes.

00:28:19.853 --> 00:28:20.093
Okay.

00:28:20.183 --> 00:28:20.603
Yes.

00:28:20.993 --> 00:28:26.673
And the attachment research showed that
the interaction with early care girls.

00:28:27.418 --> 00:28:32.428
will give the print on how
you will operate in the world.

00:28:32.728 --> 00:28:37.588
And they have four different types
of attachment models based on which

00:28:37.588 --> 00:28:43.768
circumstances you grow up in and
the understanding of this relational

00:28:43.778 --> 00:28:49.988
dynamics with the early caregivers
from first second of living.

00:28:53.148 --> 00:28:59.168
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean, it's,
it, I think a useful piece of mentorship

00:28:59.198 --> 00:29:04.273
that I got Which I think helps understand
this, was from spending so much time

00:29:04.273 --> 00:29:09.503
with the Bushman, son, Khoisan Bushman,
in the Kalahari, and watching how

00:29:11.703 --> 00:29:15.413
complete and unconditional love, and
including the kids in every single thing

00:29:15.593 --> 00:29:18.673
that was going on, because they're on
your back, so they watch you track,

00:29:18.693 --> 00:29:22.203
they listen to the conversations, they
see you engaging in every activity,

00:29:22.203 --> 00:29:25.458
and then little by little they just but
also they've been cared for all the time

00:29:25.458 --> 00:29:30.098
because you would never let your kid cry
it out in another room because as soon

00:29:30.098 --> 00:29:32.758
as the kid cries, the hyenas go lunch.

00:29:33.148 --> 00:29:36.498
And you would never put your kid away
from you, even in the hut, because the

00:29:36.498 --> 00:29:38.398
hyenas will come into your heart at night.

00:29:38.398 --> 00:29:41.228
They'll find a way and they
will absolutely take your kid

00:29:41.678 --> 00:29:42.668
and we'll never hear them.

00:29:42.688 --> 00:29:44.088
They'll be, you know, so.

00:29:44.298 --> 00:29:46.558
You would never dream of
putting your kid over there.

00:29:46.558 --> 00:29:49.308
You would put it between two
adults to keep it warm and to

00:29:49.338 --> 00:29:50.818
protect it and so on and so on.

00:29:51.348 --> 00:29:53.218
And that this is just how
human life has evolved.

00:29:53.218 --> 00:30:00.108
And so a baby, if it cries and cries it
out thinking on some fundamental level, Oh

00:30:00.108 --> 00:30:01.628
shit, the hyenas are going to come get me.

00:30:02.598 --> 00:30:03.408
Nobody cares.

00:30:03.798 --> 00:30:09.208
And you know, many of us have wondered how
much of our quote unquote stuff goes back

00:30:09.208 --> 00:30:12.448
to that primal experience of just having
been made to cry it out as babies because

00:30:12.908 --> 00:30:14.368
most people from certainly my generation.

00:30:14.698 --> 00:30:15.198
Okay.

00:30:15.208 --> 00:30:20.628
So let's say in that case, I perhaps
have insecure attachment, right?

00:30:20.688 --> 00:30:21.788
Would that be correct to say?

00:30:21.788 --> 00:30:26.598
Because I would then look for
other things to fill the hole

00:30:27.618 --> 00:30:29.498
of not feeling attached enough.

00:30:29.998 --> 00:30:31.928
And I've done that in
many ways in my life.

00:30:31.978 --> 00:30:33.298
So I've done thorough research.

00:30:34.058 --> 00:30:35.938
I like to think I put the
fun back in dysfunction.

00:30:36.538 --> 00:30:41.678
So then let's say I am not securely
attached and I then end up in, It develops

00:30:41.678 --> 00:30:48.928
some pathologies and I end up in front
of you with my pathology and perhaps I'm

00:30:48.928 --> 00:30:52.188
addicted, perhaps I'm whatever I'm, you
know, and I've got something going on

00:30:52.458 --> 00:30:55.398
and it's now impacting my life and it's
impacting the lives of others around me.

00:30:56.598 --> 00:31:00.288
I'm in front of you and you're
a psychotherapist and this is

00:31:00.288 --> 00:31:02.938
about talk and you're going
to now pair me up with horses.

00:31:03.943 --> 00:31:04.273
Why?

00:31:04.663 --> 00:31:05.403
And what's the benefit?

00:31:06.753 --> 00:31:12.353
Norunn Kogstad: Well, first of all,
one, when we talk about the attachment

00:31:12.413 --> 00:31:17.193
styles and we have the, the safe
attachment and the ambivalent attachment

00:31:17.194 --> 00:31:20.833
and avoidant insecure attachment, and
then the last type, which is a complete

00:31:20.873 --> 00:31:24.413
disorganized attachment, then what, what I

00:31:24.413 --> 00:31:25.183
Rupert Isaacson: write.

00:31:25.183 --> 00:31:25.403
Okay.

00:31:26.663 --> 00:31:26.833
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:31:26.833 --> 00:31:30.223
But what I think is really important
here is that these are theories.

00:31:30.488 --> 00:31:34.598
These are not clinically, these are
not psychotherapies, you know, these

00:31:34.718 --> 00:31:39.308
are theories for therapists to sort
of make a scaffold in your head.

00:31:39.548 --> 00:31:41.048
Rupert Isaacson: Like a
bit of a framework to work.

00:31:41.068 --> 00:31:41.448
Yes.

00:31:41.538 --> 00:31:41.798
Yeah.

00:31:41.848 --> 00:31:41.988
You

00:31:42.278 --> 00:31:44.878
Norunn Kogstad: need to have sort of
a framework understanding of what's

00:31:44.878 --> 00:31:46.818
going on in front of me, you know.

00:31:47.633 --> 00:31:51.453
Because that can help you to be
able to just withstand whatever

00:31:51.453 --> 00:31:52.853
is going on in the therapy.

00:31:53.743 --> 00:31:58.303
And I think quite a lot of, you
know, what we learn about how it's so

00:31:58.303 --> 00:32:01.863
important to meet each other, understand
each other, listen to each other.

00:32:01.883 --> 00:32:06.273
It comes with every kind of attachment
style you have and whatever kind of

00:32:06.323 --> 00:32:08.373
issues or problems or emotional reactions.

00:32:08.618 --> 00:32:12.508
they are valid, you know, so it's not
like, oh, you have an ambivalent style.

00:32:12.518 --> 00:32:14.498
So you're kind of craving stuff.

00:32:14.558 --> 00:32:17.538
That's just because you have an
ambivalent that it's not whatever

00:32:17.538 --> 00:32:22.408
comes up is valid and needs to be
responded to and understood properly.

00:32:22.928 --> 00:32:26.693
And it's the relationship to the
therapist, which is the healing part.

00:32:27.163 --> 00:32:28.083
Of what's going on.

00:32:28.133 --> 00:32:34.383
If we look at the attachment theory, and
I do think that what's really important

00:32:34.393 --> 00:32:39.013
to understand in in that aspect is that

00:32:42.653 --> 00:32:47.573
what is that relationship, you know,
because Transcribed When when you come

00:32:47.573 --> 00:32:52.433
to me, then there needs to be some
fundamental thing going on between me

00:32:52.433 --> 00:32:55.503
and you for you to have a relationship
with me where you can experience

00:32:55.513 --> 00:32:59.163
what's important for you and where you
can start to explore what's going on

00:32:59.163 --> 00:33:01.313
inside of you because we all suffer.

00:33:01.573 --> 00:33:02.883
We all feel bad.

00:33:02.883 --> 00:33:08.093
We all have horrible, horrible illnesses,
but to alleviate that suffering to be

00:33:08.113 --> 00:33:10.723
able to live with yourself and your needs.

00:33:11.133 --> 00:33:12.453
and who you actually are.

00:33:13.253 --> 00:33:17.073
That's, that's what I think
about real psychotherapy.

00:33:17.073 --> 00:33:20.163
It's not fixing, we can't fix history.

00:33:20.543 --> 00:33:23.483
History is history, but we
have to fix the responses.

00:33:23.743 --> 00:33:27.253
We have to fix the suffering to the
responses that we have in our body.

00:33:28.533 --> 00:33:29.023
And

00:33:29.533 --> 00:33:31.823
Rupert Isaacson: Okay,
that makes perfect sense.

00:33:32.843 --> 00:33:33.423
Why horses?

00:33:34.153 --> 00:33:37.843
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, and when I
include people who has experienced a

00:33:37.843 --> 00:33:41.893
lot of, a lot of difficult things, you
know, and they have a lot of reactions

00:33:41.933 --> 00:33:47.403
and they often have immense amount
of self hatred and shame going on.

00:33:48.043 --> 00:33:52.373
And it takes a lot of time in an office,
even though I have a nice office.

00:33:52.873 --> 00:33:56.363
I've built an office, which is not a
white office, but it's, it's a cozy,

00:33:56.783 --> 00:34:01.123
I'm trying to make it, and it, I don't
think, I don't believe in the neutral

00:34:01.133 --> 00:34:05.523
therapist, so it's my office, and this
is the place, and I want to show you that

00:34:05.563 --> 00:34:10.078
you are important, and this is a this
should be a good place to be, you know?

00:34:10.328 --> 00:34:11.958
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, your
dog is there too, which is

00:34:12.238 --> 00:34:16.098
Norunn Kogstad: my dog is there and
she loves my clients and she develops

00:34:16.108 --> 00:34:17.698
a very special bond to each client.

00:34:17.718 --> 00:34:21.238
You know, she's, she's quite
undernourished when it comes to

00:34:21.238 --> 00:34:23.688
care, but she can, she can manage.

00:34:24.588 --> 00:34:30.708
So, but it takes a lot of time for
people who has had a lifetime of.

00:34:31.353 --> 00:34:38.343
Self hatred, trouble rejections violence
to, to, to come to that space where we

00:34:38.343 --> 00:34:40.963
can be together and trust each other.

00:34:42.153 --> 00:34:49.073
And what I think is really needed, I
think it's really nice to, to look into

00:34:49.623 --> 00:34:58.083
some, some of this basic understanding
of the human social interaction needs.

00:34:58.918 --> 00:35:05.438
And by that I can, for example, polyvagal
theory that I think can give a good,

00:35:06.318 --> 00:35:11.048
a good way of looking at the social
engagement system that we need each other.

00:35:11.388 --> 00:35:13.488
We need to feel contact.

00:35:13.488 --> 00:35:14.698
We need to feel seen.

00:35:14.698 --> 00:35:16.128
We need to feel understood.

00:35:16.538 --> 00:35:21.168
It's not the absence of threat that
determines whether you feel safe or not.

00:35:21.378 --> 00:35:22.878
It's the presence of connection.

00:35:23.098 --> 00:35:25.038
These things make sense to me, you know?

00:35:25.888 --> 00:35:30.208
And when I bring people to the horses.

00:35:31.518 --> 00:35:37.588
People quite often, we start by just
observing the horses, talking about

00:35:37.838 --> 00:35:39.148
what's going on, what are they doing.

00:35:39.698 --> 00:35:45.608
And people quite often say
very quickly, you know, when

00:35:45.608 --> 00:35:47.218
I came here, I was stressed.

00:35:47.878 --> 00:35:49.878
When I leave, I feel relaxed.

00:35:51.798 --> 00:35:57.758
And very quickly in that first session,
when they start observing the horses,

00:35:58.318 --> 00:36:06.623
this very profound metaphors, symbols,
the way of looking at the world and people

00:36:06.663 --> 00:36:08.983
comes up when we look at the horses.

00:36:09.623 --> 00:36:16.163
I, I just did a study interviewing
youths that, and that were included

00:36:16.163 --> 00:36:17.613
in psychotherapy with horses.

00:36:18.293 --> 00:36:25.098
And they had some fantastic comments
about the first session with the horses.

00:36:25.128 --> 00:36:27.598
One of them said that, you know, we
stood there, looked at the horses.

00:36:27.598 --> 00:36:29.158
It was really freezing cold.

00:36:29.188 --> 00:36:30.238
It was really boring.

00:36:30.658 --> 00:36:32.058
And I felt horrible.

00:36:32.328 --> 00:36:33.608
I didn't trust anybody.

00:36:33.998 --> 00:36:37.318
And then by just looking at
the horses after some time,

00:36:38.188 --> 00:36:39.598
it was actually kind of nice.

00:36:39.638 --> 00:36:42.848
You know, I could stand there
with my pain and my emotion

00:36:42.978 --> 00:36:44.018
and feeling bad in the group.

00:36:44.128 --> 00:36:46.568
And all of a sudden it was okay.

00:36:48.708 --> 00:36:55.388
And this person was quite sure that
It would be impossible for him or

00:36:55.388 --> 00:37:00.018
her to continue in a group session
if there were no horses present.

00:37:02.778 --> 00:37:03.458
Rupert Isaacson: Why?

00:37:03.728 --> 00:37:11.718
Why did just the presence of the
horses make that person feel better?

00:37:12.308 --> 00:37:13.268
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, exactly.

00:37:13.278 --> 00:37:13.478
Why?

00:37:14.378 --> 00:37:15.018
Rupert Isaacson: Here's the thing.

00:37:15.228 --> 00:37:16.668
You can totally understand the dog, right?

00:37:16.898 --> 00:37:17.218
You

00:37:17.219 --> 00:37:17.808
Norunn Kogstad: know,

00:37:17.808 --> 00:37:19.508
Rupert Isaacson: the dog
greets you when you come in.

00:37:19.508 --> 00:37:24.598
The dog is very human like in its, in
its behavior and its emotional state.

00:37:25.783 --> 00:37:28.203
Presentation we know this
is why we all have dogs.

00:37:28.203 --> 00:37:32.098
Yeah, so I can totally see
you're feeling like shit.

00:37:32.298 --> 00:37:34.358
You've come to your, your psychotherapist.

00:37:34.358 --> 00:37:35.158
They've got a nice dog.

00:37:35.158 --> 00:37:36.118
The dog greets you.

00:37:36.538 --> 00:37:40.448
You're going to get, I guess your
word would be transference of

00:37:40.448 --> 00:37:42.398
emotion positively from that dog.

00:37:42.438 --> 00:37:44.238
Unconditionally, they're
just happy to see you.

00:37:45.208 --> 00:37:46.458
Horse doesn't react that way.

00:37:46.958 --> 00:37:49.208
Now aesthetically horses are beautiful.

00:37:50.028 --> 00:37:50.798
This we know.

00:37:51.448 --> 00:37:56.263
But beyond that beauty, Or
is the beauty part of it?

00:37:57.813 --> 00:38:02.723
What, what's going on, do you
think, before we even get into

00:38:04.263 --> 00:38:05.683
how we're working with that horse?

00:38:06.713 --> 00:38:10.953
Why does the mere presence of a
horse help in this way, do you think?

00:38:12.633 --> 00:38:14.583
Norunn Kogstad: Well, I'd love
to get into the academics of it,

00:38:14.583 --> 00:38:16.063
but let's do that afterwards.

00:38:17.373 --> 00:38:21.983
What these young people say, they are,
I mean, it's amazing what they say.

00:38:22.123 --> 00:38:24.243
They, they have huge
problems, huge problems.

00:38:24.243 --> 00:38:27.663
And they say, well, you know,
the horse, it's not like a dog.

00:38:28.223 --> 00:38:32.423
They won't come over and, you know,
please you in any way, but they

00:38:32.423 --> 00:38:34.273
just require you to be who you are.

00:38:35.703 --> 00:38:38.123
And that's kind of
uncommon, one of them said.

00:38:40.303 --> 00:38:41.003
Isn't that amazing?

00:38:41.863 --> 00:38:44.343
The horse just requires
you to be who you are?

00:38:44.543 --> 00:38:48.358
I mean That's really insane.

00:38:48.828 --> 00:38:50.688
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and what's
interesting about that is that

00:38:50.698 --> 00:38:52.018
that's also a perception, right?

00:38:52.018 --> 00:38:54.938
Because we actually know if we work
with horses, that horses require us

00:38:55.808 --> 00:38:57.838
to not be who we are in certain ways.

00:38:57.838 --> 00:39:01.298
Like if I'm hungry, the horse
requires me not to eat it, you know,

00:39:01.748 --> 00:39:03.668
or to override my hunting instinct.

00:39:04.098 --> 00:39:08.618
Or if I'm afraid of the horse,
it's definitely helpful for me to.

00:39:09.113 --> 00:39:13.583
engage in some kind of masking
so I don't transfer my Distress

00:39:13.883 --> 00:39:14.833
to the horse and the horse.

00:39:14.983 --> 00:39:15.323
Oh shit.

00:39:15.333 --> 00:39:15.833
What's going on?

00:39:15.833 --> 00:39:16.713
Why is this person afraid?

00:39:16.713 --> 00:39:21.283
Yeah that so what's interesting is that
you know, you hear a lot of people saying

00:39:21.723 --> 00:39:25.973
horses Accept you for who you are and
I don't know if it's true or not true

00:39:26.013 --> 00:39:30.863
I think it that that statement raises
as many questions as it does things.

00:39:30.873 --> 00:39:34.383
However, I think what is true is
it makes people feel that way.

00:39:34.723 --> 00:39:39.948
And if horses seem to make people
feel that way, and So that begs,

00:39:40.048 --> 00:39:43.228
you know, another rather interesting
question is why, why do horses

00:39:43.288 --> 00:39:44.698
make people feel so accepted?

00:39:44.708 --> 00:39:50.228
Why do horses make people feel
that the horse only requires

00:39:50.228 --> 00:39:51.308
them to be who they are?

00:39:52.228 --> 00:39:54.978
What do you think is, causes
somebody to interpret that?

00:39:55.678 --> 00:39:58.668
And it's a positive thing, but whether
it's accurate or not, if it's healing,

00:39:58.678 --> 00:39:59.648
hey, we're going to go with it.

00:39:59.648 --> 00:40:02.448
But why, why do you think they,
they come to this conclusion?

00:40:04.458 --> 00:40:08.888
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, I'm really,
really, really intrigued by that as well.

00:40:08.928 --> 00:40:16.028
And I tried to look at it from, you know,
the perspective of their experience,

00:40:16.208 --> 00:40:18.518
how they describe the interaction.

00:40:19.458 --> 00:40:23.488
They immediately, most of them
immediately say something about one

00:40:23.488 --> 00:40:29.428
of the horses being similar to them or
special to them, or something goes on

00:40:29.428 --> 00:40:32.628
in them relationally towards one horse.

00:40:33.598 --> 00:40:39.248
So there seemed to be some sort
of immediate, you know, attraction

00:40:39.288 --> 00:40:40.828
towards the horses in a way.

00:40:41.358 --> 00:40:43.768
Rupert Isaacson: Almost
allegorical immediately.

00:40:43.778 --> 00:40:44.158
Yeah.

00:40:44.628 --> 00:40:44.978
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:40:46.568 --> 00:40:47.348
Rupert Isaacson: But why?

00:40:47.918 --> 00:40:49.678
What's going on in the
human psyche with that?

00:40:50.508 --> 00:40:50.678
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:40:51.078 --> 00:40:52.598
I think that's amazing.

00:40:52.598 --> 00:40:59.238
I mean, from an academic side, what I,
what I'm thinking and that what we are

00:40:59.238 --> 00:41:06.948
looking into from the videos that we're
doing is that, you know, this ability

00:41:06.948 --> 00:41:15.813
of the horse to notice and be aware
of so many things in its surroundings

00:41:16.373 --> 00:41:20.543
at once seems to be magic for people.

00:41:21.193 --> 00:41:22.723
So does a dog not

00:41:22.723 --> 00:41:23.343
Rupert Isaacson: do that too?

00:41:23.883 --> 00:41:24.643
It doesn't

00:41:24.643 --> 00:41:25.253
Norunn Kogstad: seem like that.

00:41:26.333 --> 00:41:35.603
It seems like horses are able to respond
and notice more things in the surrounding

00:41:35.613 --> 00:41:39.583
without physically and acting towards it.

00:41:40.933 --> 00:41:46.323
So it seems like, well my theory, I
don't know, well my theory is that

00:41:47.653 --> 00:41:53.373
when people come in with some sort of
physical sensation and they're being

00:41:53.423 --> 00:41:58.533
responded to without being overwhelmed
with, you know, huggings and licking

00:41:58.613 --> 00:42:04.288
or barking or whatever, but just small,
small, small, like now, when I said that

00:42:04.318 --> 00:42:08.398
you started nodding your head, it's a
very small thing, but I felt seen and

00:42:08.428 --> 00:42:10.848
understood sort of, it feels comfortable.

00:42:10.858 --> 00:42:12.118
It feels like you're listening to me.

00:42:12.118 --> 00:42:13.988
It feels like you understand
what I'm talking about.

00:42:14.198 --> 00:42:15.088
It feels really good.

00:42:15.798 --> 00:42:19.008
If you would sort of just think
about something else, chewing

00:42:19.018 --> 00:42:22.178
some food, get going away from the
picture, you know, I would feel like.

00:42:22.963 --> 00:42:23.003
Hello.

00:42:23.543 --> 00:42:25.443
Am I, you know, getting through here?

00:42:25.993 --> 00:42:29.583
And this feeling of these micro things
that you're doing right now, the way

00:42:29.593 --> 00:42:34.203
you blinked right now, it was like,
you were like, yeah, you know, it

00:42:34.203 --> 00:42:38.983
feels like you're conveying a lot
of messages that my body immediately

00:42:39.113 --> 00:42:40.783
responds to, even through the screen.

00:42:41.283 --> 00:42:44.553
I think that's quite much more potent
and powerful when we're in the same

00:42:44.553 --> 00:42:49.433
room, but even through the screen, I
can feel this sort of understanding

00:42:49.433 --> 00:42:54.073
and connection and interest, you
know, and that does something to me.

00:42:54.783 --> 00:42:59.643
I think it does more to my physiology
when we're in the same room, but

00:42:59.643 --> 00:43:03.783
still through the screen, it does
quite a lot of things to me, like when

00:43:03.793 --> 00:43:10.823
we're done research on physiologic
or the physiology behind regulation.

00:43:11.033 --> 00:43:15.803
And you look at infants as we know
something about that when babies

00:43:15.813 --> 00:43:19.633
have not been touched or cared for,
they will die before the age of four.

00:43:20.143 --> 00:43:25.833
But we also know that, you know, when
twins are born, their regulation of

00:43:25.943 --> 00:43:28.235
heart rate blood pressure hormones.

00:43:28.235 --> 00:43:32.873
And so that's more, more
or less a hundred percent.

00:43:33.423 --> 00:43:33.823
Relate

00:43:34.343 --> 00:43:35.033
Rupert Isaacson: related to

00:43:35.253 --> 00:43:40.233
Norunn Kogstad: the dependent on,
yeah, another living being, the

00:43:40.233 --> 00:43:46.563
twin and infants are very highly
dependent on the physiologically

00:43:46.793 --> 00:43:49.823
regulation of another living being

00:43:50.853 --> 00:43:51.353
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

00:43:51.933 --> 00:43:55.473
Norunn Kogstad: And so we continue
when we grow up, we tend to think

00:43:55.483 --> 00:43:59.013
that we're grown up, so we don't need
this physical regulation, but we do.

00:44:00.718 --> 00:44:01.228
We do.

00:44:01.728 --> 00:44:07.988
And our, I think our blood pressure,
our hormone levels, our circadian

00:44:07.988 --> 00:44:12.648
rhythm, I think that's up to 50
percent regulation by physiological

00:44:12.978 --> 00:44:15.838
interaction with caring others.

00:44:15.918 --> 00:44:17.268
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, with
social mammals, you know.

00:44:17.278 --> 00:44:17.618
Yeah.

00:44:17.758 --> 00:44:20.578
Norunn Kogstad: And you, do you know
that they figured out that men that

00:44:20.578 --> 00:44:24.698
kisses their wives more than six
seconds when they leave every morning,

00:44:24.698 --> 00:44:26.428
they live like four years longer.

00:44:27.868 --> 00:44:28.318
Really?

00:44:28.718 --> 00:44:30.118
So go kissing, you know.

00:44:31.708 --> 00:44:32.218
Love each other.

00:44:32.268 --> 00:44:33.078
Liliana, sorry.

00:44:33.078 --> 00:44:35.928
That's the best idea ever.

00:44:36.768 --> 00:44:38.578
And I think that there's
something about the kiss.

00:44:38.578 --> 00:44:38.758
The kiss

00:44:38.758 --> 00:44:40.168
Rupert Isaacson: has to
last for six seconds.

00:44:40.598 --> 00:44:41.518
Norunn Kogstad: Yes, yes.

00:44:42.198 --> 00:44:43.618
Rupert Isaacson: So not,
we're not talking pecs here.

00:44:44.018 --> 00:44:44.638
Norunn Kogstad: No, no, no.

00:44:45.288 --> 00:44:47.568
It has to be six seconds in one batch.

00:44:49.508 --> 00:44:50.528
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, making a note here.

00:44:50.528 --> 00:44:50.808
Yes,

00:44:50.868 --> 00:44:51.418
Norunn Kogstad: yes, yes.

00:44:51.788 --> 00:44:52.218
It's important.

00:44:52.388 --> 00:44:53.188
Do long kisses.

00:44:53.548 --> 00:44:54.468
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, right.

00:44:54.568 --> 00:44:55.678
I might go do some research.

00:44:55.958 --> 00:44:59.418
I'll speak to you when I'm 90 and see.

00:45:00.248 --> 00:45:00.877
Go for it.

00:45:00.877 --> 00:45:02.520
So there is something about

00:45:02.520 --> 00:45:02.848
Norunn Kogstad: this

00:45:05.218 --> 00:45:09.488
physiological regulation that goes
on between human and horses, I think.

00:45:10.958 --> 00:45:13.448
Which seems to be of importance,

00:45:13.638 --> 00:45:13.928
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:45:13.928 --> 00:45:17.118
And again, you could, you can
understand this in close quarters.

00:45:17.228 --> 00:45:24.258
Once you get within the warmth
and you know, you probably.

00:45:24.838 --> 00:45:28.488
You might have listened to the podcast
I did with Kansas Carradine, you know,

00:45:28.488 --> 00:45:32.088
talking about heart math and Linda
Townsend Jones talking about heart

00:45:32.098 --> 00:45:37.178
math and so on and the electromagnetic
resonance of, you know, hearts and

00:45:37.478 --> 00:45:41.328
our hearts come into that, you know,
electromagnetic field of this very

00:45:41.328 --> 00:45:44.723
powerful heart from the horse and
boom, we co regulate and get it.

00:45:44.933 --> 00:45:46.883
Coherence in our own physiology.

00:45:47.003 --> 00:45:48.203
This is now well studied.

00:45:48.413 --> 00:45:54.343
There's even, I only discovered
back in 1993, there was a study at

00:45:54.343 --> 00:45:57.763
the University of Castle here in
Germany where I live, which summary

00:45:57.763 --> 00:45:59.263
has gone completely under the radar.

00:45:59.593 --> 00:45:59.594
But.

00:46:00.133 --> 00:46:02.843
Kansas Caridine turned me on
to it where they were measuring

00:46:02.853 --> 00:46:06.983
photons being emitted from hearts
when they're thinking about love.

00:46:07.583 --> 00:46:11.233
And she sent me a meme about this and
how far it goes and I said, Oh, yes,

00:46:11.233 --> 00:46:14.693
gosh, if you had a horse one, you know,
you got that kind of co regulation.

00:46:14.693 --> 00:46:14.963
Wow.

00:46:14.963 --> 00:46:16.783
It'd be a big amplifier.

00:46:16.783 --> 00:46:17.943
But I thought, is that real?

00:46:17.943 --> 00:46:19.113
That sounds a bit new agey, Anna.

00:46:19.293 --> 00:46:20.563
So I went in search of it.

00:46:20.563 --> 00:46:21.313
I found the study.

00:46:21.313 --> 00:46:22.013
I'll send it to you.

00:46:22.023 --> 00:46:22.893
It's that.

00:46:23.463 --> 00:46:28.273
And what's so weird is that study for 30,
35 years ago, and we don't know about it.

00:46:29.033 --> 00:46:33.913
But I can get that, and obviously
you'd have to get over your fear of

00:46:33.913 --> 00:46:37.303
horses or the unfamiliarity and is the
horse going to hurt me and da da da.

00:46:37.303 --> 00:46:39.973
But let's say you've gotten over all
that, the horse is next to you and

00:46:39.973 --> 00:46:43.413
you're maybe even hugging on it and
you're co regulating it, blah blah blah.

00:46:43.803 --> 00:46:46.463
That I can get, but when the horse is
on the other end of the arena, when

00:46:46.463 --> 00:46:50.363
the horse is just standing there in
the field, it seems to have a no less

00:46:50.383 --> 00:46:52.723
powerful effect, even at a distance.

00:46:52.773 --> 00:46:53.873
That is interesting to me.

00:46:54.023 --> 00:46:54.883
What do you think about that?

00:46:55.508 --> 00:46:58.298
Norunn Kogstad: Well, it's, it's not that
difficult to understand really, if you get

00:46:58.318 --> 00:47:03.098
into a room of, you know, people you don't
know and everybody look really angry, and

00:47:03.098 --> 00:47:06.828
then, you know, at the far end of that
room, one person turns towards you, smiles

00:47:06.828 --> 00:47:08.498
and says, Hi Aru, I'm gonna help you.

00:47:08.798 --> 00:47:09.348
I'm here.

00:47:10.378 --> 00:47:11.718
What does that do to your physiology?

00:47:11.718 --> 00:47:12.168
Oh sure, but

00:47:12.168 --> 00:47:13.658
Rupert Isaacson: a horse doesn't
do that, a horse is just a horse.

00:47:13.658 --> 00:47:13.718
Well,

00:47:14.118 --> 00:47:16.658
Norunn Kogstad: maybe the horse
actually does that, you know,

00:47:16.738 --> 00:47:18.728
with the miniature signals.

00:47:19.678 --> 00:47:23.518
When I have people here doing the
horse in therapy courses, I put them

00:47:23.518 --> 00:47:27.188
out into the field to the horses and
I ask them to focus on one horse on

00:47:27.188 --> 00:47:31.328
a distance and just notice whatever
that horse is doing on a distance.

00:47:32.018 --> 00:47:36.428
And that can be, you know, a hundred,
200 meters away, just making note of what

00:47:36.438 --> 00:47:38.868
that one horse, what that horse is doing.

00:47:38.868 --> 00:47:41.598
And when they come back,
they are so filled with

00:47:41.618 --> 00:47:43.648
connection with that one horse.

00:47:44.493 --> 00:47:52.193
Because what I do hope that we find and
what I observe clinically, but this is not

00:47:52.213 --> 00:47:58.023
what I've, you know, proven academically
as of yet, is that the horse, when

00:47:58.243 --> 00:48:03.463
somebody is in its, you know, I don't
know how far, but they can see quite

00:48:03.463 --> 00:48:07.943
far and notice quite far, then they
will immediately be able to respond to

00:48:08.683 --> 00:48:11.903
the small, small, small signals of that
person just by a flicker of their eye.

00:48:12.483 --> 00:48:16.593
Which, you know, physiologically,
in that person, will make a

00:48:16.593 --> 00:48:18.683
response, I'm being responded to.

00:48:21.303 --> 00:48:21.713
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:48:25.093 --> 00:48:25.693
Talk.

00:48:25.763 --> 00:48:30.583
So, talk therapy, observation
of horses, I mean, you might be

00:48:30.583 --> 00:48:34.163
talking a bit, but obviously now
you're talking about the horse.

00:48:34.293 --> 00:48:38.143
You've also talked about your office,
which is presumably more talking like

00:48:38.173 --> 00:48:41.358
we're talking now, you're seated,
you're sitting across from each other.

00:48:42.088 --> 00:48:45.658
So can you describe to me an
equine psychotherapy session?

00:48:46.068 --> 00:48:46.798
I arrive.

00:48:47.338 --> 00:48:49.288
Do I first come to your
office and talk to you there?

00:48:49.288 --> 00:48:52.748
And then we go and we interact with
the horses and then we come back into

00:48:52.748 --> 00:48:56.748
your office afterwards and we talk
again about what our experience was?

00:48:56.908 --> 00:48:58.188
Or does it play out differently?

00:48:58.538 --> 00:49:01.348
Norunn Kogstad: We have
a pre evaluation talk.

00:49:01.618 --> 00:49:05.638
Everybody who contacts us is invited
to come to my office to have, you

00:49:05.638 --> 00:49:09.108
know, a 45 minute talk where we're
talking about what we're doing, What

00:49:09.108 --> 00:49:12.708
they're looking for, expectations,
could this be a fit, you know,

00:49:12.978 --> 00:49:14.818
should we go ahead and work together?

00:49:15.628 --> 00:49:18.748
And then it depends a little bit
on the background, but usually I'll

00:49:18.748 --> 00:49:24.438
offer like one or two evaluation
sessions where we if we need to do

00:49:24.438 --> 00:49:29.138
some diagnostic or if we need to do
some formal stuff, we'll do that.

00:49:29.638 --> 00:49:31.628
And then we will go to the horses.

00:49:31.908 --> 00:49:35.618
When we do the horse sessions,
we meet out at the indoor arena

00:49:35.618 --> 00:49:37.538
where we have on a sitting area.

00:49:39.038 --> 00:49:39.668
We meet there.

00:49:39.668 --> 00:49:40.648
We talk about sort of.

00:49:41.098 --> 00:49:42.038
topic of today.

00:49:42.538 --> 00:49:43.128
What's going on?

00:49:43.128 --> 00:49:44.028
And it depends.

00:49:44.038 --> 00:49:48.598
Some, some people have
sort of a treatment plan.

00:49:48.888 --> 00:49:56.028
Some people are in a long process
oriented therapy where it's more

00:49:56.338 --> 00:50:00.928
in depth experience of what's going
on in that day, per day, per day.

00:50:01.353 --> 00:50:05.913
When a longer treatment plan,
which is not that concrete groups,

00:50:06.183 --> 00:50:09.563
often we either have open groups
or we are closed to closed groups.

00:50:09.563 --> 00:50:13.003
So the open groups is a more
psychoeducative group where we go

00:50:13.003 --> 00:50:18.763
through specific topics related to
that populations and closed groups.

00:50:18.913 --> 00:50:22.283
There's a process group where we
start the first day by setting

00:50:22.283 --> 00:50:25.053
sort of the goals and the thoughts
and expectations in the group.

00:50:26.158 --> 00:50:29.018
And then we go to the
horses, the open groups, more

00:50:29.018 --> 00:50:30.678
psychoeducational teaching groups.

00:50:30.828 --> 00:50:34.788
We choose the horses the
process groups, the patients.

00:50:35.218 --> 00:50:38.558
Choose the horses, we bring the horses to
the indoor arena, we let the horses free,

00:50:38.858 --> 00:50:42.958
and we start observing the horses and
allowing them to do whatever they need.

00:50:43.738 --> 00:50:48.558
And when we have younger clients
or more disorganized clients, then

00:50:48.558 --> 00:50:54.858
we do more structured activities,
and we have a shorter period

00:50:54.868 --> 00:50:58.108
of, unstructured observations.

00:50:58.528 --> 00:51:01.578
We do minor observations where
we communicate together like,

00:51:01.578 --> 00:51:02.918
Oh look, there's movements.

00:51:03.298 --> 00:51:04.018
What's going on over there?

00:51:04.188 --> 00:51:06.558
Who of these horses would you
have been if you were a horse?

00:51:06.708 --> 00:51:08.588
And then straight to greeting the horse.

00:51:09.368 --> 00:51:13.378
When people are longer into their
therapy, they can spend almost a whole

00:51:13.388 --> 00:51:15.098
session just observing the horses.

00:51:15.598 --> 00:51:19.138
Having metaphors, thoughts,
projections, thinkings, looking

00:51:19.148 --> 00:51:24.248
how things play out, requires
quite a lot of patience, calmness,

00:51:24.358 --> 00:51:26.918
and stability inside of yourself.

00:51:27.468 --> 00:51:30.808
And it needs to be experienced
as meaningful and interesting

00:51:30.818 --> 00:51:32.118
and sort of powerful.

00:51:32.348 --> 00:51:37.558
I know in some trauma centers, they
only do observing of horses, but maybe

00:51:37.558 --> 00:51:41.208
only five minutes, and then spend
the rest of the week working with

00:51:41.208 --> 00:51:44.718
sort of ideas, thoughts, projections,
fantasize, associations, and so

00:51:44.718 --> 00:51:48.843
that came up from just that Brief
observational interaction with horses.

00:51:49.713 --> 00:51:55.143
And then after the horse session, when we
end the session with the horses, then I

00:51:55.143 --> 00:51:59.163
will sort of say, okay, we are approaching
the end of the session for today.

00:51:59.733 --> 00:52:00.823
Let's bring the horses out.

00:52:00.853 --> 00:52:05.453
And then usually we have like a very
short closing circuit by the end.

00:52:06.148 --> 00:52:09.428
anything in particular that came up
that, you know, people would like

00:52:09.428 --> 00:52:12.538
to say about today or something.

00:52:12.578 --> 00:52:17.158
And then we allow as much as possible
to be brought into the next session.

00:52:17.198 --> 00:52:19.588
And then we bring up the next
session, what happened in the last

00:52:19.588 --> 00:52:21.458
session, if it comes up naturally.

00:52:21.958 --> 00:52:23.398
Rupert Isaacson: If they're
coming to you, is it like they

00:52:23.398 --> 00:52:26.078
do 12 sessions or they do 25?

00:52:26.078 --> 00:52:26.758
In groups,

00:52:26.898 --> 00:52:28.608
Norunn Kogstad: groups are six sessions.

00:52:28.958 --> 00:52:29.368
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:52:30.338 --> 00:52:33.088
Norunn Kogstad: And individual
patients are, yeah, different,

00:52:33.168 --> 00:52:36.508
come totally different on what,
what, what the question is.

00:52:36.508 --> 00:52:37.688
Is there sort of an

00:52:37.688 --> 00:52:38.278
Rupert Isaacson: average?

00:52:38.278 --> 00:52:38.998
What did you say?

00:52:39.418 --> 00:52:44.178
Is there sort of an average where
you sort of see this profound change

00:52:44.178 --> 00:52:50.558
happen by a certain time and then the
point where you feel, or they feel.

00:52:51.253 --> 00:52:55.363
Okay, they sort of don't need to come
anymore or do people come indefinitely?

00:52:56.073 --> 00:52:59.493
Norunn Kogstad: I have some patients
combined office therapy and horse

00:52:59.493 --> 00:53:04.143
therapy for years, for many, many
years where we have both the severe

00:53:04.143 --> 00:53:09.153
pathology, but also our continuing,
you know, self development quest.

00:53:09.653 --> 00:53:15.043
And also some people that comes in for
supervision around the, their relationship

00:53:15.043 --> 00:53:16.258
and interaction with their horse.

00:53:17.788 --> 00:53:22.248
But I'd say that the major part
of the individual clients I

00:53:22.248 --> 00:53:24.358
have is from six to 12 months.

00:53:24.848 --> 00:53:25.198
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:53:25.368 --> 00:53:25.618
Okay.

00:53:25.628 --> 00:53:27.158
And what happens at the
end of that 12 months?

00:53:27.218 --> 00:53:28.998
Do they feel like, Hey, I feel better.

00:53:29.038 --> 00:53:31.888
And you give them a certificate
of betterness and off they go.

00:53:32.038 --> 00:53:35.188
Or how, how does the process of
kind of deciding, you know, I'm

00:53:35.228 --> 00:53:38.968
okay to move on with the next
phase of my life sort of happen?

00:53:39.918 --> 00:53:43.098
Norunn Kogstad: Well, usually they
buy a batch of 10, 10 sessions.

00:53:43.608 --> 00:53:46.748
And then sort of, we, we make a
plan for the 10 sessions and then

00:53:46.748 --> 00:53:49.678
we have an evaluation and we talk
about where we are in the process.

00:53:49.678 --> 00:53:52.398
And then we talk about, you know,
let's do 10 more sessions and we

00:53:52.408 --> 00:53:54.728
have an indefinite period of time.

00:53:54.728 --> 00:53:58.468
Or we talk about, I think maybe one
period of 10 sessions could be okay.

00:53:58.468 --> 00:53:59.518
Now that would be good.

00:53:59.783 --> 00:54:02.713
And then throughout those 10
sessions, we will talk about, you

00:54:02.713 --> 00:54:04.593
know, this is going to be an ending.

00:54:04.633 --> 00:54:05.943
How is that affecting you?

00:54:06.203 --> 00:54:07.323
What does that mean to you?

00:54:07.323 --> 00:54:09.373
What's going to happen further on?

00:54:09.373 --> 00:54:11.623
And how is this process working for you?

00:54:12.363 --> 00:54:14.453
Rupert Isaacson: See, I would
imagine that I've been to

00:54:14.453 --> 00:54:16.193
Lundakarngen obviously a few times.

00:54:16.193 --> 00:54:18.273
It's fabulously physically beautiful.

00:54:18.273 --> 00:54:20.763
You're on this mountain
overlooking this lake.

00:54:20.933 --> 00:54:22.013
Your horses are lovely.

00:54:22.303 --> 00:54:23.433
And I want to go into your, your life.

00:54:23.703 --> 00:54:26.513
Horse welfare and horse care, why
they look so good in a minute.

00:54:27.013 --> 00:54:28.423
The vibe is just gorgeous.

00:54:28.423 --> 00:54:31.003
It's this old Scandinavian
farm, beautiful old farmhouse.

00:54:31.433 --> 00:54:36.993
So, there must be some sort of grief
when people feel they're going to

00:54:36.993 --> 00:54:40.143
leave the relationship with you, the
relationship with the horses, the

00:54:40.153 --> 00:54:42.333
relationship with the place itself.

00:54:43.103 --> 00:54:48.763
How do you mitigate that so that
they don't then, you know, fall

00:54:48.763 --> 00:54:53.283
into some sort of pathology from
the grief of just not being able

00:54:53.283 --> 00:54:54.613
to hang out at Lunderhagen anymore?

00:54:55.433 --> 00:54:59.833
Norunn Kogstad: Well, you know, I do
work quite a lot with patients who has

00:55:00.333 --> 00:55:04.383
severe symptomatology on different levels.

00:55:04.453 --> 00:55:10.933
And most of my patient has been in
many, many therapy, whatever kind of

00:55:10.943 --> 00:55:16.243
things before, and they bring along
with them major amounts of rejections,

00:55:16.243 --> 00:55:22.933
disappointments anger, grief and,
and we, we almost always start by

00:55:22.963 --> 00:55:24.633
working with that quite immediately.

00:55:25.383 --> 00:55:30.083
And for many patients, you know,
the first half year is about

00:55:30.513 --> 00:55:36.353
how to cope with, because every
ending is going to reactivate.

00:55:37.428 --> 00:55:39.718
early rejections, right?

00:55:40.008 --> 00:55:46.328
Losses and griefs, you know, and then
we really need to get, get to that

00:55:46.328 --> 00:55:48.218
before we can really get to the process.

00:55:48.248 --> 00:55:53.318
And then we can start working on
the ending as its own process.

00:55:54.798 --> 00:55:58.658
For many patients and I rarely spend less
than three months working on unending.

00:55:59.218 --> 00:56:06.928
Rupert Isaacson: Okay What is the you
can't even say reoffending rate or re?

00:56:07.418 --> 00:56:09.178
pathology rate or

00:56:11.798 --> 00:56:17.288
not falling back down into the hole
right once people have have gone

00:56:17.298 --> 00:56:23.748
through whatever their What is right
for them number of sessions is with you?

00:56:24.098 --> 00:56:28.573
I'm thinking about Some research from
the University of Bournemouth, which

00:56:29.123 --> 00:56:32.343
I think it was the horse course they
did into the horse course in The

00:56:32.343 --> 00:56:34.803
UK who are interesting people and
we've got to have them on the show

00:56:36.983 --> 00:56:39.903
Where they had looked at domestic
violence a domestic violence

00:56:40.403 --> 00:56:45.323
intervention with horses and had found
that there was still a 50% decrease

00:56:45.863 --> 00:56:52.523
in the violence a year after the e
equine intervention had finished,

00:56:52.523 --> 00:56:55.343
which is an astonishing, you know.

00:56:55.673 --> 00:56:55.733
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah.

00:56:56.083 --> 00:56:59.383
Rupert Isaacson: So for you, what
do you pick up data on that as well?

00:56:59.383 --> 00:57:03.603
Like what's the, the after
effects once people have gone

00:57:03.603 --> 00:57:05.163
through their lunda, Hargan?

00:57:05.973 --> 00:57:10.953
Norunn Kogstad: I don't have data on that,
but the, my clinical experience is that.

00:57:11.603 --> 00:57:14.303
the, the, what would you call it?

00:57:14.303 --> 00:57:19.663
The patients that decide for
themselves for how long they want

00:57:19.663 --> 00:57:25.793
and who can be a part of making
the treatment plan and endings.

00:57:26.523 --> 00:57:29.323
They, they rarely come back.

00:57:30.663 --> 00:57:34.533
Rupert Isaacson: Do you get to, do you
have any way, has there been follow up,

00:57:34.963 --> 00:57:39.603
you know, even if it's unofficial where
you kind of keep a bit of tabs on people?

00:57:40.083 --> 00:57:40.603
Yeah, well,

00:57:40.603 --> 00:57:42.133
Norunn Kogstad: they can recontact me.

00:57:43.648 --> 00:57:44.178
Rupert Isaacson: Say that again.

00:57:44.628 --> 00:57:45.968
Norunn Kogstad: They can re contact me.

00:57:46.168 --> 00:57:46.478
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:57:46.488 --> 00:57:46.618
So

00:57:46.618 --> 00:57:48.688
Norunn Kogstad: we have the
agreement that you know within so

00:57:48.688 --> 00:57:54.048
and so long You can re contact me
and you can always be re referred.

00:57:55.058 --> 00:57:57.608
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so they always
have the the idea that the door is open

00:57:58.398 --> 00:58:01.568
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah, while while
patients that have a limited amount

00:58:01.568 --> 00:58:06.948
of time even because either because
they're government if Governmentally

00:58:06.948 --> 00:58:12.428
funded or if they're from an
institution, I'd say that the relapse

00:58:12.698 --> 00:58:15.918
rate there is You Yeah, I don't know.

00:58:16.738 --> 00:58:17.358
Pretty high.

00:58:19.278 --> 00:58:22.798
Rupert Isaacson: What's, what's the, I
mean that's very honest to admit, what,

00:58:22.798 --> 00:58:28.473
what's the What is the solution for that
if you know, okay, these people are coming

00:58:28.473 --> 00:58:34.873
for this very set, perhaps rather minimal
period of time with me, you yourself,

00:58:35.183 --> 00:58:40.263
just because of your own emotion,
must find that saddening to think.

00:58:40.273 --> 00:58:42.133
Yeah, they're very likely to relapse.

00:58:42.263 --> 00:58:46.443
The rates could be
quite high in your view.

00:58:47.183 --> 00:58:47.483
What?

00:58:47.963 --> 00:58:50.253
What's the best way to
mitigate that minimize that?

00:58:50.393 --> 00:58:51.363
And how do you deal with that?

00:58:51.988 --> 00:58:58.678
Norunn Kogstad: But, you know, I, I, I
really, I'm really, you know, strongly

00:58:58.678 --> 00:59:04.068
thinking that I, I'm not going to
be able to fix things in six times.

00:59:04.118 --> 00:59:09.638
I mean, that's not real, but, but,
but I find it really meaningful.

00:59:09.938 --> 00:59:12.958
And I find that many of the clients
that come here, even for just six

00:59:12.958 --> 00:59:16.688
times, even if they relapse, or even
if things becomes difficult, then.

00:59:17.088 --> 00:59:21.938
Making these six times the most useful
and the most meaningful possible.

00:59:21.968 --> 00:59:26.268
And we all agree, you know, if
you have some sort of severe.

00:59:26.938 --> 00:59:31.588
issue, then six sessions is not going
to change a lifetime of, of things.

00:59:31.888 --> 00:59:33.708
So we all agree on that when we start.

00:59:33.768 --> 00:59:38.408
And we talk about that and we talk about
the ambivalence of, you know, life.

00:59:38.408 --> 00:59:41.548
And we talk about the difficulties
and we talk about sort of, you know,

00:59:41.548 --> 00:59:45.398
if you come in and you're a substance
use disorder patient with huge trauma

00:59:45.408 --> 00:59:48.988
problems, criminal background, and you're
like, I just want a family and a job.

00:59:50.273 --> 00:59:52.113
No, that's really cool.

00:59:52.323 --> 00:59:55.773
It might take some time, you know,
so we just talk about what's, what's

00:59:55.773 --> 00:59:58.483
real, what's reality going on.

00:59:58.923 --> 01:00:03.773
And I think it's important to be, you
know, to be reasonable and to be sensible.

01:00:03.783 --> 01:00:05.293
I am no magician.

01:00:05.323 --> 01:00:07.253
I'm just here to be a part of,

01:00:07.473 --> 01:00:08.893
Rupert Isaacson: I think what
you're putting your finger on is

01:00:08.893 --> 01:00:14.343
that you are the, you are a good
chapter in somebody's life story.

01:00:14.908 --> 01:00:15.248
Yes.

01:00:15.728 --> 01:00:19.898
And if that chapter can
then inform further good

01:00:19.898 --> 01:00:22.028
chapters, that's a good thing.

01:00:22.258 --> 01:00:24.958
You know, I often struggle with
this with the horse boy work and,

01:00:25.238 --> 01:00:26.538
you know, movement method work.

01:00:26.738 --> 01:00:29.708
There are some families who we worked
with for years and we saw amazing

01:00:29.708 --> 01:00:32.808
outcomes or even short times we saw
amazing outcomes and other families

01:00:33.058 --> 01:00:37.578
who went away and then perhaps fell
into some really difficult situations

01:00:37.658 --> 01:00:40.278
and then your, your heart really went
out to them and thought, well, yeah.

01:00:40.588 --> 01:00:41.858
But then some.

01:00:42.248 --> 01:00:45.078
Now I've sort of been in the
game for upwards of 20 years.

01:00:45.288 --> 01:00:50.378
I've seen some of those families then
recover and interestingly use the

01:00:50.378 --> 01:00:56.518
resilience that they learned while
they were or Helped to learn while

01:00:56.518 --> 01:01:02.828
they were with us kick in and I've
even had some people come back and

01:01:02.828 --> 01:01:06.908
say hey look it was actually those
times at Horseboy or those times You

01:01:06.908 --> 01:01:11.408
know another Horseboy place might not
even been ours that So when I did fall

01:01:11.418 --> 01:01:13.318
back in that hole, I had more tools.

01:01:13.828 --> 01:01:17.938
So I think the reason I ask that
question is I think a lot of people,

01:01:17.938 --> 01:01:24.668
when they're getting into this world of
equine assisted stuff it can be daunting.

01:01:25.888 --> 01:01:32.458
When you realize that despite
the miracles horses bring, those

01:01:32.468 --> 01:01:36.928
miracles might be in the moment,
but they might or might not be.

01:01:37.288 --> 01:01:38.158
carry over.

01:01:38.738 --> 01:01:41.848
But at the same time, then there's
a secondary set of miracles that can

01:01:41.848 --> 01:01:45.308
happen, where there's almost like
a gestation period or a myelination

01:01:45.308 --> 01:01:50.118
period, where those resilience
tools that the horses gave then can

01:01:50.118 --> 01:01:51.858
sort of resurface at a later date.

01:01:51.898 --> 01:01:54.778
And I think That's perhaps something
that's not talked about very much.

01:01:54.898 --> 01:01:58.558
We tend to think in terms of, you know,
six month follow ups or a year follow up.

01:01:58.618 --> 01:02:01.488
And that actually brings me a bit
more to your personal story, because

01:02:01.488 --> 01:02:04.928
you, you know, yourself have told
me a little bit about how you

01:02:04.928 --> 01:02:06.128
got into this in the first place.

01:02:06.128 --> 01:02:10.088
And none of us, or very few of
us, I think, get into this kind of

01:02:10.088 --> 01:02:12.778
work, because we wake up at six.

01:02:13.173 --> 01:02:17.083
You know, years old going, I want to
be an equine, you know, psychotherapist

01:02:17.083 --> 01:02:20.463
or me going, I want to run, you
know, do this horse boy thing.

01:02:20.523 --> 01:02:21.803
And it's not like that at all.

01:02:21.993 --> 01:02:25.273
I, as everyone knows,
you know, fell into it.

01:02:25.708 --> 01:02:30.128
Because my, of my son and stumbled into
something that worked and then sort of

01:02:30.128 --> 01:02:31.798
kept doing it because why would you not?

01:02:33.488 --> 01:02:40.498
but I think most of us have a personal
reason why and we also know that we

01:02:40.498 --> 01:02:46.368
are ourselves the metaphors of going
of the ups and downs of life and The

01:02:46.368 --> 01:02:49.968
consistency of horses in our lives and
nature in our lives, you know is what

01:02:51.063 --> 01:02:55.033
Keeps us thriving, not just surviving.

01:02:55.673 --> 01:02:57.529
Talk to us about you.

01:02:57.529 --> 01:02:59.853
What brought you to Lunderhagen?

01:02:59.893 --> 01:03:01.373
Take us back to your girlhood.

01:03:01.693 --> 01:03:06.643
You've told me stories of being up on
them in the mountain with your horse

01:03:07.213 --> 01:03:09.983
Really in the wilds as a young girl.

01:03:09.983 --> 01:03:11.333
Why what took you there?

01:03:11.433 --> 01:03:12.223
What are you looking for?

01:03:13.043 --> 01:03:16.518
Norunn Kogstad: Well, you know,
I could I could talk about that.

01:03:16.518 --> 01:03:20.548
I was always curious about nature
and I loved being with animals.

01:03:20.548 --> 01:03:24.788
I was crazy about horses from
age of two and I came from

01:03:24.798 --> 01:03:26.528
absolutely no horse family.

01:03:27.028 --> 01:03:32.308
And I grew up with a single mom and she
was she had She had her own struggles and

01:03:32.308 --> 01:03:36.958
she was working a lot and we were moving
a lot and somehow I found it really hard

01:03:36.958 --> 01:03:45.588
to sort of fit in, adjust to my family
and to whatever place I was moving here

01:03:45.588 --> 01:03:51.108
and there and hoping to find something
and also with extreme amount of energy.

01:03:51.648 --> 01:03:55.798
And just the other day I was added
on Facebook, you know, this new

01:03:55.808 --> 01:03:59.268
thing on the internet by a woman.

01:04:00.033 --> 01:04:05.403
Who, who lived in the same city as
me when I was like, maybe 13 or 14.

01:04:05.913 --> 01:04:07.973
And all of these memories
came back because.

01:04:08.853 --> 01:04:14.553
She was, she's grown up to be this
beautiful, very nice, she's a politician

01:04:14.553 --> 01:04:17.063
or advisor for politics or something.

01:04:17.743 --> 01:04:21.473
And I looked at the pictures of
her and her friends and I realized

01:04:21.493 --> 01:04:23.563
that, you know, I knew those girls.

01:04:23.603 --> 01:04:28.463
I knew them when I was, you
know, 13, 14, 12, 15, whatever.

01:04:29.453 --> 01:04:33.088
And I knew a lot of really
nice people at that time.

01:04:33.353 --> 01:04:38.563
And then I remember that once I was out
riding, I had an Icelandic horse at that

01:04:38.563 --> 01:04:42.843
time and we were roaming everywhere,
up in the mountains, out in the fields.

01:04:42.893 --> 01:04:48.003
And I was out riding and I met one of the
guys in that group of people and I was

01:04:48.143 --> 01:04:50.193
talking to him and he was really nice.

01:04:50.193 --> 01:04:51.963
He was just being, you
know, normal, polite.

01:04:51.983 --> 01:04:52.913
Hi, how are you doing?

01:04:52.933 --> 01:04:54.193
Oh, nice horse, whatever.

01:04:55.073 --> 01:05:00.533
And I remember a distinct
feeling of I can't do this.

01:05:01.243 --> 01:05:02.333
I have to get away.

01:05:04.373 --> 01:05:06.803
And so I said, bye bye.

01:05:06.833 --> 01:05:08.143
And I took my horse and I rode.

01:05:08.893 --> 01:05:13.603
And I think it was not very long
after that I moved away from home.

01:05:14.913 --> 01:05:19.653
And I'm, I had, I knew a lot of people
in that area and they were quite nice,

01:05:19.683 --> 01:05:24.023
you know, quite nice group of people,
but there was something inside of me.

01:05:24.423 --> 01:05:28.868
It was not them, but it was something
inside of me that was really, upset.

01:05:29.438 --> 01:05:32.868
And of course, throughout my
life, I've been working a lot

01:05:32.908 --> 01:05:34.198
with what's going on in my life.

01:05:34.238 --> 01:05:40.098
And I know that, you know, this
turbulent childhood of my mom and dad

01:05:40.098 --> 01:05:45.248
splitting up and my mom having a lot
of work and having a lot of her own

01:05:45.248 --> 01:05:49.858
struggles, very complicated relationship
and my dad not being present at all.

01:05:50.318 --> 01:05:55.338
And somehow inside of me that
made some very strong feeling of

01:05:55.368 --> 01:05:57.168
not belonging anywhere, I think.

01:05:58.483 --> 01:06:02.713
But the stables, I always
belonged in the stables.

01:06:02.753 --> 01:06:06.083
Wherever I could find a horse, I
would feel that I belonged somewhere.

01:06:06.873 --> 01:06:11.623
And what I know from, you know, theory
of attachment is that it's when you

01:06:11.623 --> 01:06:15.513
feel belonged and understood that
you start to develop the capacity

01:06:15.883 --> 01:06:19.353
to mentalize, understand what's
going on inside of other people.

01:06:20.143 --> 01:06:22.523
And you start to develop
the capacity for empathy.

01:06:23.403 --> 01:06:26.523
So I think that, you know, my.

01:06:27.368 --> 01:06:30.758
My attraction to the horses
and to the stables became

01:06:30.768 --> 01:06:33.658
my sort of safe, safe place.

01:06:34.188 --> 01:06:37.898
And also, you know, going back to the
psychotherapeutic literature and listening

01:06:37.898 --> 01:06:43.113
to Bjorn or Winnicott and listening
about the The holding environment

01:06:43.143 --> 01:06:51.193
and the, the ability to be, to be
understood and, and, um, tolerated.

01:06:52.053 --> 01:06:56.513
I think that, you know, me growing up
in this, I think I was maybe 10 years

01:06:56.513 --> 01:06:58.003
old when I started living in disabled.

01:06:58.978 --> 01:07:02.348
And I literally grew up in the stable,
you know, and when I was 17, I moved

01:07:02.358 --> 01:07:05.528
to Iceland to work with wild horses.

01:07:06.218 --> 01:07:10.568
And then I came back to Norway and
I imported 24 horses from Iceland on

01:07:10.568 --> 01:07:13.878
an airplane, and that went completely
crazy on the airport in Norway.

01:07:13.878 --> 01:07:16.888
So they never ever imported horses
by plane to Norway after that.

01:07:18.058 --> 01:07:24.258
So horses became sort of a part
of my family and my safe place

01:07:24.288 --> 01:07:26.233
and my, my, my safe place.

01:07:27.553 --> 01:07:29.343
my companion in life.

01:07:31.353 --> 01:07:38.393
And yeah, that's the place where I
turn to when I'm stressed, when I have,

01:07:39.033 --> 01:07:43.083
when there are things going on in life,
which is too difficult to deal with.

01:07:43.133 --> 01:07:46.853
Then I just go there and I'm, I'm
lost with my animals for a while.

01:07:46.903 --> 01:07:47.343
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:07:47.673 --> 01:07:50.173
You came, your mum was
not horsey, single mum.

01:07:50.733 --> 01:07:53.243
Overwhelmed with work, her own
difficulties, dad not there.

01:07:53.363 --> 01:07:57.523
So, okay, you find your way to stables,
but how did you end up owning a horse?

01:07:57.763 --> 01:08:00.173
That's a more difficult thing,
and that takes a little bit

01:08:00.203 --> 01:08:02.983
of obviously financial stuff.

01:08:03.013 --> 01:08:05.453
How did you find, how did you
manage to put that together?

01:08:06.543 --> 01:08:11.233
Norunn Kogstad: Well, I do think that my
mom, being overwhelmed with life, I think

01:08:11.263 --> 01:08:14.283
she, she had some sensible, instincts.

01:08:14.713 --> 01:08:18.433
I think she realized that, you know, if
I, if I were just in a stable, I would

01:08:18.443 --> 01:08:23.113
be relatively safe and she could go off
to work or whatever she needed to do.

01:08:23.873 --> 01:08:29.153
So when I was 10 or something,
she managed to buy a small pony.

01:08:29.303 --> 01:08:32.888
It costs 500 euros, I think, or less.

01:08:32.978 --> 01:08:35.918
And I would pay quite a lot
for the boarding of that pony,

01:08:35.938 --> 01:08:37.278
and it was completely crazy.

01:08:38.108 --> 01:08:41.308
Oh, I don't think I could ride him
very much because he would just run.

01:08:41.358 --> 01:08:43.928
But we had a lot of fun nevertheless.

01:08:43.928 --> 01:08:47.068
And we built, you know,
obstacle courses in the forest.

01:08:47.068 --> 01:08:49.018
And I lived there with him.

01:08:49.758 --> 01:08:53.508
And after a while I managed to sell
him and buy this Icelandic horse.

01:08:53.508 --> 01:08:57.488
And I started working at an
early age so that I could

01:08:58.198 --> 01:08:58.688
Rupert Isaacson: Right,

01:08:58.908 --> 01:09:00.338
Norunn Kogstad: feed
them and care for them.

01:09:01.548 --> 01:09:02.248
And then

01:09:02.738 --> 01:09:06.798
Rupert Isaacson: you've talked about
disappearing off into the mountains

01:09:07.408 --> 01:09:07.698
Norunn Kogstad: Yeah,

01:09:07.768 --> 01:09:10.598
Rupert Isaacson: walked a little
bit with you in the mountains

01:09:10.598 --> 01:09:12.998
behind your house at Lunderhagen.

01:09:13.308 --> 01:09:14.758
It gets pretty wild pretty quick.

01:09:15.058 --> 01:09:18.798
So Norway, we know,
it's a bit like Canada.

01:09:18.798 --> 01:09:22.288
You get out of a certain line of
the farmland and boof, it's just

01:09:22.788 --> 01:09:25.928
forest and mountain and lakes.

01:09:26.268 --> 01:09:30.038
What did you find out
there in that nature?

01:09:31.618 --> 01:09:37.698
And how was going in there on a horse
more healing than just going in on foot?

01:09:40.308 --> 01:09:44.768
Norunn Kogstad: Well, it's, it's kind
of interesting, you know, in this

01:09:44.808 --> 01:09:51.898
a little bit unsettled life getting
into nature and this solid concrete.

01:09:53.003 --> 01:10:00.878
living environment felt very
meaningful and my restlessness could,

01:10:01.283 --> 01:10:04.243
could sort of, you know, be useful.

01:10:04.733 --> 01:10:08.183
So I managed to get a dog when I was 13.

01:10:08.683 --> 01:10:12.843
Then I had this Icelandic horse, and
I think I was 14 the first time I

01:10:12.843 --> 01:10:17.428
brought him into the wilderness and we
And I slept under the, under the stars

01:10:17.918 --> 01:10:20.198
and just exploring with those two.

01:10:20.298 --> 01:10:24.838
And those were my, my pack, you know,
we were the herd out there and he

01:10:24.838 --> 01:10:28.658
would be, the Icelandic pony would
be even more loyal than the, the dog.

01:10:28.858 --> 01:10:32.008
She was a German shepherd,
Norwegian moose dog mix.

01:10:32.018 --> 01:10:34.648
So if she was hunting, then she
would be off for a couple of

01:10:34.738 --> 01:10:36.008
weeks and then she came back.

01:10:36.538 --> 01:10:37.788
But the pony here would come.

01:10:38.218 --> 01:10:39.558
So whenever there was this.

01:10:39.738 --> 01:10:44.108
area which was a little bit difficult to
to rocky or something then I would let him

01:10:44.108 --> 01:10:48.788
loose and I will go first and I would call
him and then he would find his way over

01:10:48.788 --> 01:10:52.178
the the wetlands or or the stony areas.

01:10:52.823 --> 01:10:56.223
And that was, you know, what did I find?

01:10:56.233 --> 01:11:00.793
I think, well, it's, oh, that's
really hard to say, but somehow

01:11:00.793 --> 01:11:05.543
I found myself, you know, I was
there with my, my little herd.

01:11:05.593 --> 01:11:09.813
And that was, you know, a place
in the world where I belonged.

01:11:11.993 --> 01:11:18.338
Rupert Isaacson: Well, when I picture
that, I picture this younger Noren

01:11:18.838 --> 01:11:22.378
up out there in this beautiful
wilderness with this loyal pony

01:11:22.378 --> 01:11:24.828
and this selectively loyal dog.

01:11:25.288 --> 01:11:27.998
The word that springs to mind is joy.

01:11:29.148 --> 01:11:33.388
The joyful picture and you know,
to be out there, there's the moose,

01:11:33.428 --> 01:11:38.048
there's the deer, there's the bears
and there's the trees themselves.

01:11:38.048 --> 01:11:39.788
There's the berries, there's
the birds, there's the insects,

01:11:39.808 --> 01:11:41.048
there's the, you know, it's nature.

01:11:43.073 --> 01:11:46.963
Exploring joyfully, as you said, that was
a very nice thing that you said that that

01:11:46.963 --> 01:11:49.173
was where my restlessness was useful.

01:11:50.913 --> 01:11:53.833
And feeling useful, of
course, is feeling purpose

01:11:54.553 --> 01:11:54.953
Norunn Kogstad: is

01:11:54.953 --> 01:11:56.283
Rupert Isaacson: fundamental
to feeling joyful.

01:11:56.283 --> 01:11:59.613
And we talked about what
can psychotherapy do.

01:12:01.458 --> 01:12:06.748
If it's alleviating suffering, and it's
funny you said that as I was making a note

01:12:06.748 --> 01:12:08.298
saying, how does this alleviate suffering?

01:12:08.298 --> 01:12:10.548
And then he immediately started
talking about alleviating suffering.

01:12:12.538 --> 01:12:18.248
I can absolutely see the joy having also
experienced it myself of disappearing into

01:12:18.248 --> 01:12:20.068
the world, into nature with your horse.

01:12:20.438 --> 01:12:22.998
And although I've done it on foot
and I've done it in canoes and

01:12:22.998 --> 01:12:24.168
I've done it in many other ways.

01:12:24.168 --> 01:12:28.448
And I, absolutely endorse
them all as agents of joy.

01:12:28.448 --> 01:12:32.868
I think for those of us who are
horse people, it is never more joyful

01:12:32.868 --> 01:12:36.668
than when we're with our horse and
connecting with our horse in that way.

01:12:39.338 --> 01:12:44.938
When let's say I'm a patient though, and
I'm coming to you and despite the fact

01:12:44.948 --> 01:12:49.408
that Lunderhagen is in this beautiful
setting We're in standing in an indoor

01:12:49.408 --> 01:12:52.568
arena, or we're you know looking out
into the field We're not out there in

01:12:52.568 --> 01:12:54.938
the wilderness the alleviating suffering.

01:12:56.028 --> 01:12:56.828
Here's my question.

01:12:56.838 --> 01:12:57.608
Where's the joy?

01:13:04.338 --> 01:13:04.918
Norunn Kogstad: I

01:13:07.198 --> 01:13:14.298
I'd say that when I bring clients to
my horses whether it's into the herd

01:13:14.448 --> 01:13:20.618
or the horses into the indoor arena and
people get to You Interact with them,

01:13:20.628 --> 01:13:23.378
get to know them, explore the contact.

01:13:24.168 --> 01:13:28.758
I think what most
frequently comes up is joy.

01:13:30.468 --> 01:13:39.598
and this spontaneity that we allow for and
encourage and this individual exploring.

01:13:39.608 --> 01:13:44.848
We do sort of, we do quite a lot of work
at Liberty and relational work, exploring

01:13:44.858 --> 01:13:49.648
things together with the horse, but you
also do some basic teaching that many

01:13:49.648 --> 01:13:56.568
clients find comforting, you know, but the
teaching will always allow for individual

01:13:56.618 --> 01:13:59.818
exploring and different solutions.

01:13:59.878 --> 01:14:02.808
It's not, you have to keep
your horse on the right side,

01:14:02.878 --> 01:14:04.338
holding this hand like that.

01:14:04.368 --> 01:14:08.148
It's more, we need to have this
communication going where you can

01:14:08.148 --> 01:14:12.048
sort of, you know, convey to the
horse that you need to move now, and

01:14:12.048 --> 01:14:13.278
we're going to move in this direction.

01:14:14.108 --> 01:14:17.578
And then how do we figure out a
language between the two of you, you

01:14:17.578 --> 01:14:21.278
know, and to see some of the clients.

01:14:22.268 --> 01:14:23.818
dancing around with the horses.

01:14:23.828 --> 01:14:25.218
It's just amazing.

01:14:25.658 --> 01:14:28.908
So we always say that, you know, when you
lead the horse from the stable or from

01:14:28.908 --> 01:14:34.148
the fields into the indoor arena, then
remember that this, this horse is attached

01:14:34.148 --> 01:14:35.468
to you now, you know, through the rope.

01:14:35.838 --> 01:14:40.878
So you need to be really careful where
you put that horse, because it's going

01:14:40.878 --> 01:14:42.253
to be uncomfortable for that horse.

01:14:42.533 --> 01:14:46.153
You cannot move away if there's a
situation or another horse close to it.

01:14:47.013 --> 01:14:50.613
And it's fantastic how people
immediately understand that.

01:14:50.853 --> 01:14:52.253
Okay, he's attached to me.

01:14:52.303 --> 01:14:55.123
It's not they're leading the horse,
but the horse is attached to you.

01:14:55.603 --> 01:14:58.313
And they become so responsible so quickly.

01:14:59.213 --> 01:15:00.423
And the other day we had a group.

01:15:00.758 --> 01:15:03.578
And one of the guys in the
group, he was completely chaotic.

01:15:03.718 --> 01:15:06.568
He's gonna be in court
after the therapy session.

01:15:07.398 --> 01:15:10.028
Up and down, hysteric.

01:15:10.038 --> 01:15:13.378
And we were thinking, oh
my god, okay, so, yeah.

01:15:14.418 --> 01:15:16.238
Well, go pick a horse.

01:15:16.258 --> 01:15:18.998
And he would find the horse, and before
we could talk to him, he had put the

01:15:18.998 --> 01:15:21.668
halter on and turned the horse around
and started walking in one direction.

01:15:21.918 --> 01:15:22.938
And the horse stepped on him.

01:15:23.158 --> 01:15:23.578
Of course.

01:15:23.598 --> 01:15:26.088
I mean, that happens when you're
completely chaotic around a horse.

01:15:26.678 --> 01:15:29.338
There can easily be a human
foot under a horse foot.

01:15:31.383 --> 01:15:38.103
He was like shocked, Oh my God,
of the pain and realization that

01:15:38.333 --> 01:15:41.843
something is going on here and
have to interact with this animal.

01:15:43.943 --> 01:15:47.273
And he didn't talk too much about
that, but then he went into the indoor

01:15:47.283 --> 01:15:51.373
arena and he started doing some of the
exercises that we have been practicing,

01:15:51.843 --> 01:15:54.003
how to communicate with this horse.

01:15:55.383 --> 01:15:58.973
And after a while, he definitely
didn't do anything that I suggested,

01:15:58.973 --> 01:16:00.733
he just did it completely his way.

01:16:01.493 --> 01:16:04.463
Him and the horse, they found something
that they were doing and they were

01:16:04.463 --> 01:16:06.063
completely in their own bubble.

01:16:06.873 --> 01:16:10.913
And then after a while, this horse
had never participated in that kind

01:16:10.913 --> 01:16:14.963
of therapy before, so it was a little
bit interesting to see how she would

01:16:14.963 --> 01:16:17.433
react to being a part of that therapy.

01:16:18.413 --> 01:16:21.583
And after a while, he would
just take off the leash.

01:16:21.913 --> 01:16:25.963
the halter and everything, while the
others were still doing their things.

01:16:26.843 --> 01:16:30.873
And then he would just lead his
forehead onto the forehead of the horse.

01:16:31.953 --> 01:16:36.633
And they were standing
completely silent together.

01:16:37.873 --> 01:16:41.173
That was a very special moment for
me because I was so happy that the

01:16:41.173 --> 01:16:44.753
horse was allowed to participate
in a therapy session like this,

01:16:44.753 --> 01:16:51.893
you know, and really communicating
with this but the joy on his face.

01:16:52.243 --> 01:16:57.403
After that session, that was just,
he was completely calm in his

01:16:57.403 --> 01:17:02.803
face and his body, and he was so
filled with, this was fantastic.

01:17:02.843 --> 01:17:04.963
This was so much fun.

01:17:05.333 --> 01:17:06.773
We could communicate.

01:17:07.483 --> 01:17:08.743
We were there together.

01:17:09.113 --> 01:17:11.973
And he had no idea that the rest
of the group were doing something

01:17:11.973 --> 01:17:16.873
completely different, you know,
but the joy of this was extreme.

01:17:17.473 --> 01:17:22.723
And in my interviews of the young
people, what comes out the most.

01:17:23.118 --> 01:17:29.608
It was so cool, you know, we could
bring the horses along that road or

01:17:29.608 --> 01:17:32.648
we could walk through the obstacle
course or, you know, it was so cool.

01:17:32.648 --> 01:17:35.838
We could talk to each other
and communicate about which

01:17:35.838 --> 01:17:37.368
horses we wanted to include and.

01:17:37.878 --> 01:17:39.978
we could be together in what we're doing.

01:17:42.448 --> 01:17:43.768
Rupert Isaacson: I mean,
taking a few notes,

01:17:46.328 --> 01:17:54.668
it seems that what you, you've been
highlighting is specific components

01:17:54.668 --> 01:18:01.338
of joy, which I would like to just go
over for the benefit of the listeners.

01:18:02.578 --> 01:18:07.128
And I want to, Nora, and I'd
like you to give your two cents

01:18:07.128 --> 01:18:08.228
on whether you agree with this.

01:18:08.658 --> 01:18:09.948
So I'll pose a question.

01:18:11.218 --> 01:18:11.908
Is joy

01:18:14.688 --> 01:18:17.408
a component, a sort of composite?

01:18:18.518 --> 01:18:21.303
of a certain number of components.

01:18:22.203 --> 01:18:27.023
Because we, we, we talk about a
difference between, we have the word

01:18:27.023 --> 01:18:28.293
happiness and we have the word joy.

01:18:28.533 --> 01:18:31.273
And that's to some degree interchangeable,
but they're also different words.

01:18:31.273 --> 01:18:33.893
And I think they carry a
slightly different thing.

01:18:34.743 --> 01:18:36.973
I think we think of happiness perhaps as

01:18:43.033 --> 01:18:45.783
a lower state and joy is
a higher state somehow.

01:18:48.713 --> 01:18:50.743
So go back to you in the mountains.

01:18:52.083 --> 01:18:58.123
I was picturing you in the nature, and
I was picturing the components of the

01:18:58.123 --> 01:19:01.333
nature, the trees, the animals, the
birds, the insects, the flowers and the

01:19:01.333 --> 01:19:03.943
picture of you and the horse and the dog.

01:19:05.193 --> 01:19:08.343
But you said, They were my pack.

01:19:10.393 --> 01:19:16.013
That led me to make a little note here
of a question is, which is belonging.

01:19:18.063 --> 01:19:19.818
And is Belonging,

01:19:24.908 --> 01:19:30.118
because with belonging, okay, I also
wrote dancing with horses, Joy, they're

01:19:30.138 --> 01:19:32.858
attached to their horses and they're
dancing with horses and how can that

01:19:32.858 --> 01:19:34.128
not make one joyful you'd think.

01:19:34.128 --> 01:19:39.098
But it's belonging, Joy, and
then with belonging comes,

01:19:39.098 --> 01:19:41.518
of course, responsibility.

01:19:41.528 --> 01:19:45.358
You said you're attached to
that horse and how quickly they

01:19:46.768 --> 01:19:48.498
figure a sense of responsibility.

01:19:50.078 --> 01:19:55.008
And of course, what's responsibility
but purpose and a sort of mixture

01:19:55.038 --> 01:19:56.528
of a purpose and achievement.

01:19:59.463 --> 01:20:01.863
Are necessary components for joy

01:20:04.183 --> 01:20:06.053
a sort of a happy experience?

01:20:06.063 --> 01:20:08.783
So let's say that's being in nature
with the horse, or dancing with

01:20:08.793 --> 01:20:09.723
the horse attached to the horse.

01:20:10.113 --> 01:20:13.553
But then this feeling of my
pack, I and this horse, or I and

01:20:13.553 --> 01:20:15.823
this herd of horses, I belong.

01:20:18.083 --> 01:20:22.023
And now with that belonging comes a
responsibility, purpose and achievement,

01:20:22.183 --> 01:20:23.983
and that elevates happiness to joy.

01:20:26.203 --> 01:20:27.513
Is something like that going on?

01:20:29.213 --> 01:20:32.943
Norunn Kogstad: I think you're
you put, you put so many

01:20:32.943 --> 01:20:37.593
important components into words.

01:20:38.113 --> 01:20:42.233
I think the word that we,
we need to include is love.

01:20:42.833 --> 01:20:43.523
Rupert Isaacson: Love.

01:20:44.913 --> 01:20:45.893
Speak to me of love.

01:20:47.633 --> 01:20:53.108
Norunn Kogstad: Well, when we
talk about, I think love, And

01:20:53.108 --> 01:21:01.818
empathy needs to be important part
of a good relationship and also

01:21:01.838 --> 01:21:03.688
a good therapeutic relationship.

01:21:11.478 --> 01:21:15.888
Rupert Isaacson: Someone might say, well,
okay, these people come through the door.

01:21:17.658 --> 01:21:18.328
They don't live with you.

01:21:18.328 --> 01:21:19.448
They're not part of your family.

01:21:21.338 --> 01:21:22.958
And they're coming in a
professional capacity.

01:21:22.958 --> 01:21:23.228
So.

01:21:23.783 --> 01:21:26.513
How does love come into this?

01:21:26.573 --> 01:21:27.883
Can you tell us that?

01:21:30.583 --> 01:21:31.133
Norunn Kogstad: Well,

01:21:33.743 --> 01:21:39.123
I think many of my clients, they
say when they have met the horses

01:21:39.163 --> 01:21:44.653
once or twice, they say that it's
so crazy, you know, I feel so filled

01:21:44.653 --> 01:21:46.253
with love when I leave from here.

01:21:49.383 --> 01:21:55.653
And I think that in talk therapy,
what I aim at, I mean, it's really

01:21:55.653 --> 01:22:00.303
important to work with people that
you also feel a certain match with,

01:22:00.873 --> 01:22:03.213
because I need to care for my patients.

01:22:04.113 --> 01:22:10.563
I need to really be in tuned into
and to, you know, activate my

01:22:10.583 --> 01:22:12.823
empathy and my mentalization skills.

01:22:13.668 --> 01:22:21.878
and my ability to tune into
their suffering without judgment,

01:22:21.908 --> 01:22:26.478
without becoming, you know,
some sort of condemning figure.

01:22:27.918 --> 01:22:29.348
And I think that's a major part of love.

01:22:31.708 --> 01:22:36.843
And I do think that somehow people
when they meet the horses and they

01:22:36.843 --> 01:22:41.983
can feel them physically, oxytocin,
you know, social bonding relations

01:22:42.133 --> 01:22:51.133
being responded to, they quite easily
feel connected to, to, to love and

01:22:51.133 --> 01:22:53.063
relationship and understanding and care.

01:22:54.863 --> 01:23:00.133
And I think that's a huge component
and it's very empowering, you know?

01:23:03.293 --> 01:23:03.733
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:23:03.893 --> 01:23:08.493
You know, you were, you were, we
were talking perhaps 30 minutes ago

01:23:08.633 --> 01:23:14.698
about Well, if someone is, what is
it about the presence of horses?

01:23:16.253 --> 01:23:17.693
Is it their physical beauty?

01:23:17.913 --> 01:23:18.413
What is it?

01:23:19.893 --> 01:23:25.713
But I think you've hit on something
there, where I think all, all, all

01:23:25.723 --> 01:23:29.983
beings embody love, because love
is actually what the universe is

01:23:29.983 --> 01:23:31.443
composed of, at least I believe that.

01:23:33.673 --> 01:23:37.523
I think, though, that horses embody
it in a way that speaks to the

01:23:37.523 --> 01:23:39.623
human in a very particular way.

01:23:41.353 --> 01:23:42.553
Because you say, well, why not a dog?

01:23:42.553 --> 01:23:43.413
Dogs are full of love.

01:23:43.453 --> 01:23:44.793
You know, they offer us love.

01:23:44.843 --> 01:23:46.903
That's why we keep, you know,
that's why we have them, really.

01:23:47.403 --> 01:23:48.083
These days.

01:23:51.923 --> 01:23:54.713
It seems though that horses,
they have this thing where they

01:23:54.713 --> 01:23:58.093
stand apart from us, as you said,
the dog comes, wants to please.

01:23:58.553 --> 01:24:00.313
And actually we know horses
kind of want to please as

01:24:00.313 --> 01:24:01.643
well, but it's not as obvious.

01:24:03.413 --> 01:24:09.613
So perhaps it's this feeling of being
accepted and therefore perhaps loved

01:24:09.643 --> 01:24:11.353
by something that's independent.

01:24:12.478 --> 01:24:16.018
Of one and beautiful and iconic
horses are beautiful and iconic.

01:24:16.458 --> 01:24:19.388
So it's almost like being accepted and
loved by the best looking person in the

01:24:19.388 --> 01:24:25.168
room sort of thing, who is so glamorous
and is so interesting and is so and

01:24:25.178 --> 01:24:30.088
wow, they've accepted me, little old
me, you know, gosh, that makes me feel

01:24:30.088 --> 01:24:31.748
joyful and that makes me feel loved.

01:24:32.378 --> 01:24:36.078
And whether or not that's actually
going on in the horse's brain, or

01:24:36.078 --> 01:24:39.978
not doesn't matter in terms of the
effect that it has on the human.

01:24:41.648 --> 01:24:46.108
Norunn Kogstad: Not only that they
feel love, but by feeling understood.

01:24:46.718 --> 01:24:50.038
and accepted, they feel
love for the other.

01:24:50.848 --> 01:24:52.578
And I think that's the most healing part.

01:24:54.988 --> 01:24:59.378
Rupert Isaacson: So that brings us,
of course, to the horse themselves.

01:24:59.458 --> 01:25:04.088
For a horse to offer well being,
a horse must have well being.

01:25:04.188 --> 01:25:08.358
For a human to offer well being to
another human or to a horse, the human

01:25:08.368 --> 01:25:11.178
must have well being, self care, welfare.

01:25:12.158 --> 01:25:15.378
One of the things I've noticed
when I've come to Lunderhagen

01:25:15.408 --> 01:25:16.728
is the horses look fabulous.

01:25:18.783 --> 01:25:19.823
What do I mean by that?

01:25:20.543 --> 01:25:24.953
They've got top lines they're
muscled, they are supple.

01:25:26.378 --> 01:25:27.738
Their coats are shining.

01:25:29.178 --> 01:25:31.788
They're happy when they
interact with each other.

01:25:34.388 --> 01:25:39.288
I'm working with a hospital in a
country I won't disclose because the

01:25:39.918 --> 01:25:46.188
And they have a, they have a small
equine program to a mental hospital.

01:25:46.578 --> 01:25:49.643
And they want, they know they
need to change, but They're having

01:25:49.643 --> 01:25:52.423
trouble figuring out how, and we're
trying to help them with that.

01:25:52.473 --> 01:25:55.673
And it's pretty clear the horses
do not have any well being.

01:25:55.873 --> 01:25:58.443
They're sad looking and sad acting.

01:25:59.543 --> 01:26:00.533
Yours are not.

01:26:00.553 --> 01:26:02.363
They look physically fabulous.

01:26:02.383 --> 01:26:04.623
Like I say, they're muscle,
they're real athletes.

01:26:05.583 --> 01:26:09.263
You, they come into the presence
like, Hey, yeah, what's shaking?

01:26:11.733 --> 01:26:12.353
What do you do?

01:26:12.473 --> 01:26:12.913
How do you?

01:26:13.393 --> 01:26:19.263
For those people who are out there running
programs, I think everyone would like to

01:26:19.263 --> 01:26:20.943
have horses that look and act like that.

01:26:21.143 --> 01:26:22.613
So what's the Lunderhagen way?

01:26:22.613 --> 01:26:26.303
Tell us, tell us your program for
your horse welfare and well being.

01:26:27.223 --> 01:26:28.173
Norunn Kogstad: Well,
that's extraordinarily

01:26:30.583 --> 01:26:33.403
kind of you to say, and it makes
me very happy that you say that.

01:26:33.513 --> 01:26:33.903
Well,

01:26:35.973 --> 01:26:43.693
for psychotherapeutic reasons, you know,
when I include horses into to therapy

01:26:43.693 --> 01:26:48.403
I think it's really a good idea to
include horses because they are horses

01:26:48.893 --> 01:26:52.753
and to be really clear about why we would
like to include horses instead of, you

01:26:52.753 --> 01:26:56.863
know, dogs or camels or wheelbarrows
or, you know, instruments or something.

01:26:57.348 --> 01:26:58.978
Which I think can be
fantastic, all of them.

01:26:59.568 --> 01:27:05.838
And for me, the, the relational kind
of work that I do in psychotherapy,

01:27:05.838 --> 01:27:09.233
there is You have the behavioral kind
of work and the cognitive therapies and

01:27:09.233 --> 01:27:10.583
the interventional kind of therapies.

01:27:10.583 --> 01:27:13.143
And then you have more of the
relational kind of work that we've been

01:27:13.143 --> 01:27:15.653
talking about what's going on inside
of me when I'm together with you.

01:27:15.653 --> 01:27:19.733
And how do we work with the empathy
and the mentalization capacity and

01:27:20.013 --> 01:27:23.413
development of functional strategies
to get what you need in life.

01:27:23.823 --> 01:27:26.133
But we also have sort
of the conflict level.

01:27:26.153 --> 01:27:27.723
So what's going on inside of you.

01:27:28.273 --> 01:27:31.753
What kind of defeat self defeating
sort of systems and programs and

01:27:31.753 --> 01:27:36.073
stuff and whatever are you doing, and
I mean, I'm in both of those, I work

01:27:36.073 --> 01:27:39.423
in the relational, you know, field
and I work in the conflict field.

01:27:40.063 --> 01:27:43.203
And when considering relational work.

01:27:43.743 --> 01:27:45.553
It's super important that we.

01:27:46.163 --> 01:27:49.803
include the horses into the
relational work as well.

01:27:51.343 --> 01:27:56.623
If I'm not treating my horses as a
sentient being, how am I going to

01:27:56.623 --> 01:28:03.983
expect my clients to learn about
relational real work of what's going on?

01:28:04.393 --> 01:28:07.663
Which means number one,
I need to know my horses.

01:28:07.663 --> 01:28:09.923
I need to have people on
team who really knows horses.

01:28:10.263 --> 01:28:12.183
I can really be open minded.

01:28:12.183 --> 01:28:16.103
Like we talk about, you know, having the
knowledge to be really curious, having

01:28:16.103 --> 01:28:20.533
the, being humble enough to say that we
might be wrong, we're exploring this.

01:28:21.583 --> 01:28:24.953
And we need to sort of accept.

01:28:25.533 --> 01:28:28.983
that something is going on here and
we don't always know what's going on

01:28:29.023 --> 01:28:34.523
and we need to understand that each
horse is a individual on its own with

01:28:34.613 --> 01:28:38.503
its own needs, history, background,
you know, personality, and so on.

01:28:38.903 --> 01:28:44.933
But to strive for the most knowledge
available about horses and our horses,

01:28:44.933 --> 01:28:48.533
we is essential for good psychotherapy.

01:28:48.943 --> 01:28:51.983
Because when we're doing, when we're
observing horses and people are,

01:28:51.983 --> 01:28:55.753
you know, all kinds of projections,
metaphors, thinking about what's going

01:28:55.753 --> 01:28:59.043
on there in a group, one person can
say, look, the horses, they hate us.

01:28:59.043 --> 01:29:00.983
They don't want to have
anything to do with us.

01:29:01.013 --> 01:29:04.673
And another person will say, Oh,
all of those horses are so cute.

01:29:04.673 --> 01:29:06.403
They really want to hang out with us.

01:29:06.423 --> 01:29:11.903
One person will say that horse, he's
really, you know, very, very, Narcissistic

01:29:11.903 --> 01:29:15.363
and disgusting and he has so many
opinions about things and another

01:29:15.363 --> 01:29:17.013
person will say, Oh, look at that horse.

01:29:17.053 --> 01:29:19.983
Maybe, I think maybe he has,
you know, pain somewhere.

01:29:20.513 --> 01:29:25.603
So we immediately get so much metaphors
and so much projections and so much

01:29:25.663 --> 01:29:31.403
thinkings about what they see, which
will immediately inform us about how

01:29:31.403 --> 01:29:33.393
do they sort of operate in the world.

01:29:34.013 --> 01:29:37.793
And how can I understand the way you
approach other living beings, you know,

01:29:38.173 --> 01:29:43.023
but if I don't have the capacity to, in my
head at the same time, be a part of what

01:29:43.073 --> 01:29:50.273
they're experiencing and silently also be
able to observe the horses for, you know,

01:29:50.333 --> 01:29:57.583
what's going on out there, then I think
we are prone to go into the enactment of

01:29:57.583 --> 01:29:59.543
the pathological structure of our clients.

01:30:00.948 --> 01:30:05.338
So to provide the best practice
possible, good horse knowledge is

01:30:05.368 --> 01:30:10.048
essential in my world when you work
in a relational kind of setting.

01:30:10.048 --> 01:30:14.378
And that's sort of the, the main goal
for the interaction and the structure.

01:30:15.038 --> 01:30:18.848
And when, when we work in that
world, then each horse becomes really

01:30:18.898 --> 01:30:22.428
important and each horse physical needs.

01:30:22.713 --> 01:30:28.073
So I think that, you know, for some
of our horses that are actual able

01:30:28.093 --> 01:30:35.833
to go back to back in sessions for
six hours in a day, it's amazing.

01:30:35.843 --> 01:30:39.133
It's quite demanding, but, but some
of them are really able to do that.

01:30:39.143 --> 01:30:40.933
Then I need to provide them with a.

01:30:41.243 --> 01:30:44.313
Surrounding in a life that makes
them able to do that because they're

01:30:44.313 --> 01:30:47.723
my best colleagues, you know, and
then some of our horses, they can

01:30:47.723 --> 01:30:52.303
do one, maybe two sessions a week,
if not, they're going to check out.

01:30:53.033 --> 01:30:55.653
So we encourage our horses to say no.

01:30:56.093 --> 01:30:58.173
We encourage our horses to opt out.

01:30:58.813 --> 01:31:00.553
And our clients, they love that.

01:31:01.123 --> 01:31:03.333
When they come and they choose
three horses and one of the horses

01:31:03.333 --> 01:31:05.163
says, not today, no, thank you.

01:31:05.163 --> 01:31:07.333
And we say, Oh, I think he
said, Nate, no, thank you today.

01:31:07.363 --> 01:31:08.063
Let's take another one.

01:31:08.083 --> 01:31:10.703
And they're like, Oh,
it's so fantastic to see.

01:31:11.013 --> 01:31:11.703
He can say no.

01:31:12.633 --> 01:31:13.303
Oh my God.

01:31:13.613 --> 01:31:15.133
Maybe I can say no too.

01:31:15.993 --> 01:31:16.583
That's wonderful.

01:31:16.593 --> 01:31:21.503
So, so that's a huge major part of
how we interact with our horses,

01:31:22.493 --> 01:31:26.003
but then it's, it's, it's hard to
do all these sessions back to back.

01:31:26.003 --> 01:31:28.783
So they need to have
physical strength as well.

01:31:29.223 --> 01:31:31.983
And I've learned a lot from you,
Rupert, of course, and I'm really

01:31:31.993 --> 01:31:36.643
inspired by, by your thinking of the,
the physical needs of the horses.

01:31:36.703 --> 01:31:41.323
We've always been sort of concerned with
physical needs of the horses, that they

01:31:41.323 --> 01:31:45.993
need to be, you know, at the medium level
of physical strength and that their body

01:31:45.993 --> 01:31:52.653
needs to be sort Okay, arranged, but we
have placed even more emphasis on that the

01:31:52.653 --> 01:31:59.313
last few years and also the way of working
with them that we're always considering,

01:31:59.353 --> 01:32:01.043
you know, what do they think about this?

01:32:01.053 --> 01:32:01.983
How can we show them?

01:32:02.533 --> 01:32:05.353
And what we see is, of course, that
whenever we give the horses choice and

01:32:05.353 --> 01:32:09.783
we show them what we want, then they have
a tendency to say, yes, I'll do that.

01:32:11.213 --> 01:32:13.773
Rupert Isaacson: Do you talk
us through the basic weekly.

01:32:15.488 --> 01:32:19.998
Program that for mental and physical
well being that you have for your

01:32:20.008 --> 01:32:22.898
horses because you've got a variety of
different horses you've got everything

01:32:22.898 --> 01:32:29.738
from fancy ish warm bloods there to you
know, good working Fjords and Icelandic

01:32:29.738 --> 01:32:34.428
ponies and minis and you got you got
all sorts there and different types

01:32:34.428 --> 01:32:40.763
different needs and you've got some
really happy old seniors who are still

01:32:41.403 --> 01:32:42.713
feeling pretty good in themselves.

01:32:43.273 --> 01:32:49.203
So, but there's a common denominator
in how you're approaching how they're

01:32:49.203 --> 01:32:51.753
living and what they're doing and
how they're worked out physically

01:32:51.753 --> 01:32:52.863
and how they're worked out mentally.

01:32:53.113 --> 01:32:57.413
Talk us through the living
conditions and talk us through the

01:32:57.413 --> 01:32:58.813
physical workouts that they do.

01:32:59.793 --> 01:33:01.753
Norunn Kogstad: So all of
our horses live in herds.

01:33:02.098 --> 01:33:05.068
And our herds are now divided
on the basis of, you know,

01:33:05.098 --> 01:33:06.948
their needs, nutritional needs.

01:33:07.158 --> 01:33:09.578
We have some horses, fjords,
they don't need food.

01:33:11.788 --> 01:33:12.468
They rock, that's

01:33:12.478 --> 01:33:13.048
Rupert Isaacson: true, yeah.

01:33:14.178 --> 01:33:16.988
Norunn Kogstad: Then we have some
warbloods and some ponies that need,

01:33:17.338 --> 01:33:19.398
you know, unlimited amount of food.

01:33:20.268 --> 01:33:24.308
So right now they're divided into two
herds of needing food, not needing food.

01:33:24.828 --> 01:33:28.663
And then they live outdoors in
big, As big as possible areas.

01:33:28.683 --> 01:33:33.813
Maybe it could be bigger always, but we
try to give them a variety of of areas to

01:33:33.813 --> 01:33:37.393
explore and they have good sleeping areas.

01:33:37.413 --> 01:33:39.233
And of course, hot water in the winter.

01:33:39.233 --> 01:33:45.563
And so, and then all of them are trained
physically either on a treadmill or

01:33:45.573 --> 01:33:51.473
in groundwork, dressage or out in the
forest at least three times a week.

01:33:51.918 --> 01:33:54.968
Rupert Isaacson: When you say treadmill,
do you mean a water treadmill, like a Yes,

01:33:54.968 --> 01:33:57.248
Norunn Kogstad: yes, we have
a rehabilitation facility

01:33:57.268 --> 01:33:58.628
for horses on our farm.

01:33:59.008 --> 01:34:04.368
So there's a separate program,
another person leading that program.

01:34:04.368 --> 01:34:04.958
A horse rehab,

01:34:05.818 --> 01:34:06.118
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

01:34:06.148 --> 01:34:06.638
Norunn Kogstad: So,

01:34:07.058 --> 01:34:07.778
Rupert Isaacson: those are

01:34:07.778 --> 01:34:09.898
Norunn Kogstad: our horses that
need to have some more You mentioned

01:34:09.918 --> 01:34:12.278
Rupert Isaacson: groundwork, what
kind of, and dressage, what kind of

01:34:12.278 --> 01:34:13.518
groundwork and dressage are they doing?

01:34:14.513 --> 01:34:17.853
Norunn Kogstad: Well, we start
off with all of our horses doing a

01:34:17.853 --> 01:34:22.523
basic of relational based natural
horsemanship groundwork so that they

01:34:22.693 --> 01:34:27.313
learn, you know, the basic yields,
the basic pressure and release.

01:34:27.683 --> 01:34:33.443
And they learn sort of, basic manners
that we really need horses to, to know.

01:34:33.748 --> 01:34:40.238
So skills, basic skills that they need to
know and, and basic skills of how to be

01:34:40.248 --> 01:34:46.438
mounted and to some basic desensitization
or how to deal with stress and stuff.

01:34:47.398 --> 01:34:52.118
And then we proceed to do basic
groundwork from the now from the classical

01:34:52.128 --> 01:34:54.288
dressage, very much inspired by youth.

01:34:54.543 --> 01:34:58.143
From before, I've done quite a lot
of basic groundwork from classical

01:34:58.143 --> 01:35:01.183
or academic dressage, but we
sort of upped that work a little

01:35:01.223 --> 01:35:04.693
bit to make it a little bit more
efficient when it comes to building.

01:35:05.093 --> 01:35:09.953
muscles and body structure really,
because the work that I've done

01:35:10.083 --> 01:35:14.553
mostly before is fantastic for
building relaxation and suppleness.

01:35:15.903 --> 01:35:21.523
But I think incorporating a little bit
more of the active groundwork makes can

01:35:21.523 --> 01:35:23.863
help our horses build even more muscles.

01:35:24.543 --> 01:35:28.023
And then, so they do that
for about three times a week.

01:35:28.023 --> 01:35:31.023
Some of the horses they do
jumping without the rider.

01:35:31.053 --> 01:35:32.403
So some sort of free jumping.

01:35:32.908 --> 01:35:35.668
a couple of times a week,
especially during the winters.

01:35:35.698 --> 01:35:38.758
In the summers, they tend to
just want to sleep when they come

01:35:38.758 --> 01:35:40.288
into the shadow in Lindorene.

01:35:40.788 --> 01:35:43.998
And then all of our horses
participate in some sort of

01:35:44.448 --> 01:35:47.418
ridden lessons or instructors.

01:35:47.643 --> 01:35:48.713
instructions and so.

01:35:48.943 --> 01:35:54.853
We also have a kids riding school on
Thursdays, where we do lessons with kids

01:35:54.873 --> 01:35:58.503
where they learn to interact with the
horses in a, in a more relational way.

01:35:58.503 --> 01:36:01.753
And they communicate with the horses
with their energy and, and asking

01:36:01.753 --> 01:36:03.263
them things in a very nice way.

01:36:03.263 --> 01:36:03.933
And kids love it.

01:36:03.963 --> 01:36:06.393
You know, they think it's fantastic
when I can start to stop a horse

01:36:06.413 --> 01:36:07.923
without pulling the reins and so on.

01:36:08.353 --> 01:36:10.933
They have a lot of fun doing
cool things and they do.

01:36:11.378 --> 01:36:15.768
Some trails and we do some working
quotation or amount of games things

01:36:15.808 --> 01:36:19.498
so that they get, you know, accustomed
to a lot of things going on on

01:36:19.498 --> 01:36:23.668
them around them and with them, and
with different kind of populations.

01:36:24.448 --> 01:36:26.788
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I mean,
you mentioned what you're talking

01:36:26.788 --> 01:36:31.308
about here is like a full variety
of work, and I think that this is

01:36:31.678 --> 01:36:33.158
something which is often neglected.

01:36:34.298 --> 01:36:34.798
People often.

01:36:35.503 --> 01:36:39.673
We often all of us often over specialize
in many areas of our lives And I think

01:36:39.683 --> 01:36:44.473
that can end up we can end up projecting
that onto our horses And we we know that

01:36:44.483 --> 01:36:49.423
we actually like variety in our lives
and sense as a purpose But we often say

01:36:49.423 --> 01:36:53.393
well I'm a this kind of rider or I'm a
that kind of groundwork and then you just

01:36:53.403 --> 01:36:59.713
sort of endlessly do that same thing with
The horse and they get bored What I like

01:36:59.723 --> 01:37:03.003
about what you're saying there is that is
that variety they get to live in herds.

01:37:03.003 --> 01:37:03.623
Okay, great.

01:37:03.823 --> 01:37:04.703
They get to live outside.

01:37:04.703 --> 01:37:05.073
Great.

01:37:05.103 --> 01:37:07.473
And we also know that's
not available to everybody.

01:37:07.683 --> 01:37:10.513
So I don't want people to feel bad
if they have to keep their horses

01:37:10.513 --> 01:37:11.963
in a public stable in boxes or what.

01:37:12.423 --> 01:37:14.773
Then it's about making
it as good as we can.

01:37:14.773 --> 01:37:18.063
But definitely herd structures
and living outside is, is,

01:37:18.093 --> 01:37:19.423
you know, you have that down.

01:37:20.203 --> 01:37:23.173
And you talked about the free jumping
as well as the classical work.

01:37:23.253 --> 01:37:25.503
And with that, of course,
one observes a lot of joy.

01:37:25.923 --> 01:37:29.913
Horses basically having a laugh
running around what we call crazy time.

01:37:30.023 --> 01:37:31.503
I think that's so often neglected.

01:37:31.723 --> 01:37:36.593
And again, the trail riding as part of
that, you know, outside exploring, brain

01:37:36.593 --> 01:37:40.033
building, puzzle solving, going over
different types of ground and just being

01:37:40.033 --> 01:37:45.043
out there in the, in the environment
that the organism is designed to be in.

01:37:45.383 --> 01:37:50.373
But I, you know, I've observed your,
the way in which you bring that into

01:37:51.083 --> 01:37:52.983
working with the clients at the same time.

01:37:52.983 --> 01:37:54.053
And I think that's the key.

01:37:54.393 --> 01:37:54.743
I think.

01:37:56.068 --> 01:38:02.568
So many programs end up in a stressful
time conflict where, where am I, how am I

01:38:02.608 --> 01:38:04.548
going to find time to condition my horses?

01:38:04.888 --> 01:38:09.188
And I see what you've done at
Lunderhagen is you've really

01:38:09.528 --> 01:38:11.568
figured out how to integrate.

01:38:12.108 --> 01:38:15.828
The conditioning of the horse
into the sessions with the client.

01:38:15.838 --> 01:38:19.008
So the horses are getting their
needs met at the same time, which

01:38:19.008 --> 01:38:20.438
takes that time conflict out.

01:38:21.058 --> 01:38:25.298
I know that you have to leave quite
soon and I think a lot of people

01:38:25.298 --> 01:38:27.568
would like to learn from Lundehagen.

01:38:27.998 --> 01:38:30.508
By the way, they're leaving quite
soon so that she can go off and be

01:38:30.508 --> 01:38:34.388
with her research advisor for the
PhD that will soon be coming out

01:38:34.398 --> 01:38:35.998
of Lunderhagen, so that's great.

01:38:36.298 --> 01:38:37.498
So I don't want to keep you too much.

01:38:37.648 --> 01:38:40.798
How do people contact you and can
they come to Lunderhagen and learn?

01:38:42.108 --> 01:38:46.308
And I also know that you, every couple
of years, you do like a a Congress, like

01:38:46.308 --> 01:38:51.818
a, you know, conference there overlooking
the lake with different horse people

01:38:51.818 --> 01:38:53.588
coming in from all over the world.

01:38:53.888 --> 01:38:55.808
Can you tell us, how
do people contact you?

01:38:55.808 --> 01:38:57.178
How do they come and learn from you?

01:38:58.118 --> 01:38:59.448
What do they, what do they need to know?

01:39:00.293 --> 01:39:02.663
Norunn Kogstad: So we have a
homepage called lundahagen.

01:39:02.663 --> 01:39:06.953
no and you are more than
welcome to contact me anytime.

01:39:07.383 --> 01:39:09.403
The email is post at lundahagen.

01:39:09.403 --> 01:39:09.713
no.

01:39:09.903 --> 01:39:11.483
Just ask me if there's any questions.

01:39:11.953 --> 01:39:12.703
Yeah, the question

01:39:12.703 --> 01:39:15.663
Rupert Isaacson: is, you just said
that and it sounded like Norwegian.

01:39:15.813 --> 01:39:21.683
So can you give us the website
and the, and the and the email

01:39:21.703 --> 01:39:26.343
in dumbed down English for people
like me, what taught London in it.

01:39:27.728 --> 01:39:30.533
Norunn Kogstad: So, the webpage is

01:39:32.553 --> 01:39:32.563
Lundehagen,

01:39:33.053 --> 01:39:40.673
Rupert Isaacson: L U N D E H
A G E N, Lundehagen dot N O,

01:39:40.943 --> 01:39:47.248
Norunn Kogstad: yes, and the
mail is POST, P O S T, at

01:39:47.483 --> 01:39:47.983
Rupert Isaacson: Lundehagen.

01:39:50.218 --> 01:39:50.718
Norunn Kogstad: Lundiehagen.

01:39:50.718 --> 01:39:50.848
no.

01:39:51.248 --> 01:39:51.648
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:51.698 --> 01:39:52.118
Post that.

01:39:52.148 --> 01:39:52.198
So

01:39:52.198 --> 01:39:53.128
Norunn Kogstad: contact me anytime.

01:39:53.228 --> 01:39:53.508
Yeah.

01:39:53.508 --> 01:39:53.878
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:54.318 --> 01:39:54.788
Norunn Kogstad: And

01:39:55.068 --> 01:39:55.518
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.

01:39:55.548 --> 01:39:59.468
So, so, so this conference and
coming for courses and learning?

01:40:00.313 --> 01:40:02.563
Norunn Kogstad: Yes, we do offer courses.

01:40:02.623 --> 01:40:06.543
We have a fundamentals for including
horses into services, and then we have

01:40:06.543 --> 01:40:11.633
the horse in therapy certification for
the horse expert or the people, a person

01:40:11.643 --> 01:40:15.293
on the horse, which is dealing with the
horses, which is a three level model

01:40:15.323 --> 01:40:17.133
together with ethologist Emily Kielsen.

01:40:18.073 --> 01:40:22.353
And then we also offer the, the
heel, both the workshop, three

01:40:22.353 --> 01:40:23.933
day workshop and education.

01:40:24.583 --> 01:40:29.123
And next year we'll be coming up with
the Lundahagen protocol for interventions

01:40:29.143 --> 01:40:31.243
with, with the horses in psychotherapy.

01:40:32.333 --> 01:40:38.773
And we, in last year, 2023, we did
the seminar on psychotherapy with

01:40:38.773 --> 01:40:40.823
horses and a knowledge of the horse.

01:40:40.833 --> 01:40:48.523
And in 2026, we will do the next seminar
where we're doing the attachment and

01:40:48.523 --> 01:40:52.573
personality structure from the horse
perspective and from human perspective.

01:40:53.873 --> 01:40:55.963
So, welcome!

01:40:56.493 --> 01:40:57.293
Rupert Isaacson: Lots to come and learn.

01:40:57.323 --> 01:41:00.703
And for listeners don't be worried
that it's in a foreign country.

01:41:00.833 --> 01:41:06.333
For some reason, Scandinavian people
all learn to be bilingual really,

01:41:06.333 --> 01:41:08.833
really early, putting us to shame.

01:41:09.263 --> 01:41:11.023
We are lazy English speakers.

01:41:11.023 --> 01:41:14.223
But what it means is if you're an English
speaker and you go up there, everyone

01:41:14.733 --> 01:41:16.303
teaching you will be fully bilingual.

01:41:16.803 --> 01:41:16.953
It's

01:41:16.953 --> 01:41:19.273
Norunn Kogstad: going to be really hard
to learn Norwegian because everybody

01:41:19.453 --> 01:41:21.143
is going to want to talk English.

01:41:22.188 --> 01:41:23.618
Rupert Isaacson: And they speak
English better than we do.

01:41:23.998 --> 01:41:26.608
So actually I can go to Norway
and learn English, which is great.

01:41:28.318 --> 01:41:29.588
It's worth going up there.

01:41:29.668 --> 01:41:33.778
The approach I think is
somewhat revolutionary.

01:41:34.108 --> 01:41:35.378
I think a lot of us.

01:41:35.688 --> 01:41:36.928
Down here have a lot to learn.

01:41:37.478 --> 01:41:43.988
So I'm encouraging you listeners to look
into flights to Oslo because Lundehagen

01:41:43.998 --> 01:41:48.648
is not only just a beautiful place to
hang out and find love and belonging,

01:41:48.658 --> 01:41:54.098
but it's also a place to learn everything
from classical stuff to natural

01:41:54.098 --> 01:41:58.198
horsemanship, to psychotherapy, to.

01:41:59.308 --> 01:42:00.228
And

01:42:01.458 --> 01:42:03.958
Norunn Kogstad: we hope to have
you here soon as well, Rupert.

01:42:04.238 --> 01:42:07.798
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you know, I'll,
I'll use any excuse to come back.

01:42:07.878 --> 01:42:09.198
It's magical there.

01:42:09.358 --> 01:42:12.538
But thank you for creating
magic for people with horses.

01:42:12.538 --> 01:42:13.968
Thank you for explaining to us.

01:42:15.008 --> 01:42:17.488
Psychotherapy and equine psychotherapy.

01:42:17.918 --> 01:42:21.298
Thank you for giving us
insights into what creates joy.

01:42:21.798 --> 01:42:25.208
Thank you for sharing your story and
you know, I hope to have you on again.

01:42:25.298 --> 01:42:28.008
Maybe we could go into some more
depth about some of the issues that

01:42:28.008 --> 01:42:29.758
we could only touch on this time.

01:42:30.528 --> 01:42:30.738
Thank you.

01:42:30.778 --> 01:42:31.038
I'd

01:42:31.038 --> 01:42:31.628
Norunn Kogstad: love to.

01:42:31.768 --> 01:42:32.398
I'd love to.

01:42:32.448 --> 01:42:34.128
Thank you so very much, Rupert.

01:42:34.788 --> 01:42:36.258
So very much for creating this.

01:42:36.973 --> 01:42:38.653
Rupert Isaacson: So run off
and do your research and

01:42:38.703 --> 01:42:39.273
Norunn Kogstad: I will.

01:42:39.453 --> 01:42:40.953
And give my love to your family.

01:42:41.133 --> 01:42:41.673
Rupert Isaacson: I will.

01:42:41.673 --> 01:42:44.853
And tell your research,
uh, supervisor Charlotte.

01:42:45.093 --> 01:42:47.043
Greetings from me 'cause
she's also another genius.

01:42:47.593 --> 01:42:48.193
Norunn Kogstad: Okay.

01:42:48.193 --> 01:42:49.273
Thank you so much.

01:42:49.393 --> 01:42:49.813
Rupert Isaacson: Bye-bye.

01:42:49.818 --> 01:42:50.018
Take care.

01:42:50.383 --> 01:42:51.043
Norunn Kogstad: Bye-bye.

01:42:51.341 --> 01:42:52.451
Rupert Isaacson: thank you for joining us.

01:42:52.481 --> 01:42:54.311
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

01:42:54.550 --> 01:42:59.590
Join our website, new trails
learning.com, to  check out our online

01:42:59.590 --> 01:43:04.780
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01:43:10.136 --> 01:43:12.146
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