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Hi guys.
Welcome back to the next edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast.
As always, I've got my colleague, Peter Caris, the sign shop, Yoda
H
How are you being?
What's going on?
How are you?
I'm good.
It's been a minute.
Happy to be back.
It
has been a minute.
I don't know where Mr.
Sign Design Samurai is, but I feel like he'll be popping in any
moment now while we wait for him.
Let's catch up for a minute, Pete, how you been?
Very busy.
Um, working on some projects, working on growing sign shop businesses.
We're working on developing.
Honestly, the biggest development for here today is I've been, I finally jumped
on the chat, G p t train.
I've been having fun with it all Afternoon.
The Apple iPhone just down just came out with an app, or maybe recently, I
don't know if it was just like today, but I got, I was scrolling through
my social media early this morning.
My son jumped into my bed, woke me up and, you know, he, he hands me my phone
like almost as if I missed a call.
I'm like, what are you doing?
It's five 30 in the morning.
Now you just woke me up and he's sitting in my bed.
We're watching cartoons this morning, and I'm like scrolling through my social, my
Twitter feed, and I come across this thing that says Apple Chat, G P T, iPhone app.
I'm like, all right, well that's cool.
Download.
I start, I download it.
It was like 30 seconds and it's on my phone.
I'm like, what can this thing do?
What can this thing do?
Now, there's a lot of us.
There's a lot of us that have not used this.
So this today, effectively today, which you know is like May 19th in the morning.
So when you're listening to this, probably be like a couple of weeks
ago listening to this and this morning, and I'm like,
all right, I'm gonna send some emails.
I wanna see how good this thing can be.
Ooh, scary man.
So I go, the first thing that I do is following up with a sign shop owner,
letting them know that we need to reschedule for next week, and that,
I'm sorry, and there's like, uh, a.
I suggested some dates.
I typed out this like two sentence thing and it gave me like three
paragraphs worth of information, and I'm like, this is the best
well-written email I've ever had.
Copy, paste, send it off to the owner at like 5 30, 5 45 in the morning.
Like, all right, what else can this thing do?
All right,
let's send the, yeah, dude, don't ruin, don't ruin the AI episode.
So like two weeks from now, like we're doing this AI episode, uh,
and, and it's changed so much since the last time that I was like, okay,
here is why we need to do this.
And it's blowing my mind, but I'll give you one tip, like if you like the,
if you're using that, do like, Use a friendly but professional tone or like
speak like you are talking to your best friend or something like that.
If you include that in the prompt, it's like, it, it's, it blows me away.
Like it's, it's virtually indistinguishable from something
that I would write, so.
Well, no, I mean, I, I've got like a little flavor that I add to
everything.
Well, I, I guess, I guess I don't wanna take the win from ourselves
on that upcoming episode, but I was just blown away by this.
I've been playing around with it all day.
I've been walking around like, who can I send some random message to?
And I'm like, I, I, I've discovered like how do you, I was just messing
around with it and saying like, how do you break up with your girlfriend?
How do you tell your wife that you love
her?
Uh, I How do you quit a job that you really enjoy?
And it would, it, I mean, it's like so amazing.
It, it's blowing my mind.
It's helped me, um, write articles, blog articles for websites.
It's helped me write product descriptions.
I mean, again, don't want to take the wind from the sales of that episode, but
just don't do,
it's mind blowing though.
So that's, that's, that's, that's what's on my mind here today.
Well, cool.
Yeah, I've, I've got like some things I wanted to talk about, but I'm
gonna wait until we get our guest on.
Uh, today.
I'm really excited for this.
We had this guy on, on our shop management software demo series, and we enjoyed that
call so much that we said, Hey, let's get him on to the podcast, because I
think his story is, is pretty cool and it's, I got like a lot of weird kind of
experiences that, that you and I kind of have of like, being in the industry as
a, you know, an owner or manager or, or working that side of it and then working
on the software side of it as well.
Uh, so happy to Welcome on Joe Ella at uh, sign Tracker.
I'm excited for this one.
All right guys.
Welcome back.
We've got our guest, Joe Ella from Sign Tracker.
Joe, super excited to have you.
Thanks for coming on.
Well, thank you guys.
I appreciate it.
I'm excited too.
Hopefully, uh, you know, hopefully I can, you know, impart a little bit of wisdom.
I don't know.
We'll see.
Yeah,
I was, I was just telling Pete before you jumped on that, like you've got
kind of the, a little bit of the same slice of the industry that we do.
Mm-hmm.
Like being on the, like, running a shop for a long time, and then also being
on the software side of it, actually making software for sign makers.
Yeah.
So, yep.
That's, that's me.
Super, super interested for the conversation,
Pete.
Well, thanks.
Why, why don't you kick us off?
Yeah.
So I got a laundry list of questions to ask you, so I'm
gonna tee you up really nicely.
Okay.
And start you, and start you with an easy one.
All right.
At what point did you
realize and how more likely, how, how did you realize that a software
like Sign Tracker was needed in this
industry?
Well, how it really hit me at first was, you know, I owned an electric sign shop,
started it from scratch here in Austin, Texas and owned it for over 10 years.
And so I, you know, I, I came from another sign shop.
I actually, I have, my background is not the sign industry at all.
Like so many people.
I stumbled into it, you know, I actually answered an ad in a newspaper
that said Mar uh, uh, 60 to $90,000 a year in, uh, marketing sales.
It was a marketing sales job.
And so I thought, okay, I had nothing else going on.
And um, I was in between, we had just moved to Texas from
California, my wife and I.
And so, um, I answered the ad in the paper and I went and it
was this dumpy little sign shop.
And I had no idea what it was all about.
I didn't know anything about science, but I took the job cause
I had nothing else going on.
Well, I went in there, these guys had.
Zero organization.
So I was, I didn't even have a computer on my desk.
Right?
So this is back in 96 I think.
And so we had one sh one shared computer.
So I would stay there at night building forms cuz I did own a
small business in California.
So I was sort of, you know, I like to organize, you know, work, I like
to organize people to get jobs done.
So I would sit, sit there at night, build forms just so my jobs would go through
their shop a little bit more organized.
After three months I was like, ah, screw this.
I'm out here.
I'm gonna go start my own sun company.
So, Ah, okay.
And so, so that
was the, that was the impetus of like, you, were you just like, you were in
their shop and you're like, Hey, these guys aren't doing this right at all.
And uh, just like, Hey, I'm gonna go do this to
myself now, or like Yep.
So I, cuz I was, I was building like all my own Excel and Word document
forms to organize the workflow.
I was trying to talk to the shop foreman about, you know, setting up
different, you know, uh, you know, forms to help get different sign
types through the shop and all that.
So anyway, to fast forward, I broke off from there three months into the sign
industry and started Sytech International, which is a clueless on how to even begin.
But I did take, I did take one of their head sales guys with me.
So, and we were, you know, we were in signs of the Times Magazine looking on
the back, trying to find wholesalers, you know, to build signs for us.
But then it kind of, you know, then it began, right?
So we, we had a couple of national accounts.
We were using a wholesale, local wholesale manufacturer to
build all our assigns for us.
And then I, again, I was building forms, building systems, all Excel, all access.
And then I started sending these forms out, like work orders,
survey, work orders, all this stuff.
So sign shops all over the country, customer sign off sheets.
Once they installed the sign for us instructions on how
to do the completion photos.
And so sign shops started saying, Hey, where'd you get these forms?
I made 'em, can I buy 'em?
And that's the word started.
So that was the begin.
The birth of sign tracker,
just like Excel and Microsoft Word forms
pretty much.
That's all it was.
And then, and then I started building like flow charts and org
charts and I mean, all you know.
Then I, I actually packaged it all together with like employee handbooks
and safety manuals and all this.
And then started, I think I was telling you guys earlier, the first
iteration of Sign Tracker was a disc, an 80 page training manual.
The disc was pretty much just all Excel, Excel-based word.
Documents and this printed manual I'D stuff it in a box
and sold them for two grand.
So, and I sold 600 of 'em, went, sold like 600 of 'em.
And, uh, but it looked like I was saying earlier, you know, within
a few months I was getting phone calls constantly, like, Hey Joe.
And it was all like, how do I use Excel?
Not how do I use the forms or whatever.
So anyway.
Mm.
Uh, but I did that, I did it for a few years and then sort of pulled
back and focused on my own business.
And after I sold my sign shop, then I, that's when I started trying to think
about how to, you know, do sign tracker full-time and make it a real software.
So
what was the, like, what was the next iteration, right?
We've got the CD ROMs.
Yeah.
Like the, the America Online.
Like, here's the packet for this.
Like what was, what was the next iteration?
Well,
when I, when I, what happened was I, our sign shop, um,
we were really lucky, right?
Like we were in a great spot.
I was here in Austin, Texas.
It was going through a big growth phase, which actually, technically, I don't
know if that's ever ended actually.
Austin's still
born No, no, I was gonna say, yeah, but you were in before that it was like
too expensive to actually buy a house.
Don't,
yeah.
Now it's, yeah, it's ridiculous.
Uh, so.
What happened was, um, I pulled back, you know, I pulled back on,
on sign tracker and you know, the business was really blowing up.
We were doing massive, you know, rollouts for, um, you know, national
chains and restaurants and all that.
We were doing, we were in the middle of doing the Dallas Cowboy Stadium project.
They were, when they were building their new stadium back then,
plus we were the go-to company in Austin for pylon signs and fin.
And so we were just really busy.
We had 60 employees and, but it was in 2008, you know, when the economy really
started going down and all of a, all of a sudden, oh my gosh, it was terrible.
You know, and a lot of big sign shops kind of tanked during that time,
like really big electric sign shops.
They were just going down, you know.
But right before that happened, somehow this company, they wanted to start a
sign shop, and they were like a 300 million electrical contracting company.
And so they were searching for software on, you know, how to manage a sign shop.
And they, cuz they did service work, right?
They did electrical service, electrical install.
They did 25 million a year and just sign repairs all over US and Canada.
Oh wow.
So they thought surely if we had a sign shop, these repair
customers would buy signs from us.
And so, uh, somehow I thought I had pulled everything off the interwebs,
you know, but somehow they still found this sign tracker thing.
Mm-hmm.
So they, they called me and they said, Hey, if we sign, how
do you use this in your shop?
I said, well look, if you sign an nda, you come to my shop, I'll, I'll give you
a tour of the shop and I'll show you.
I still have some of these things if you guys want it, you know, it's fine.
And so they came to the shop and what happened was, at the same
time our, the banks were like cutting our lines of credit.
I mean, it was crazy what was going on in 2008.
I don't know if you guys were.
You guys are young, so May maybe you weren't in the same business then.
Well, I,
I think that was Pete's Was that like your first year in business, Pete?
Second
year.
Second year.
And you survived.
Good for you.
It was tough and, um, I mean, what happened was they, uh, you know,
they came and toured the shop and at that time, you know, like I said, we
were doing the Dallas Cowboy Stadium.
We had tons of signs.
Everything was going on.
We were, we were doing a ton of stuff and they were like a deer
in the headlights, you know.
So I get back into my, my office, I'm showing them how to use this
Excel version of Sign Tracker.
And halfway through the presentation, the c e o of the company just stops
and puts his hand on my shoulder and says, okay, we've seen enough.
How about if we just buy everything?
And I went like, oh, well it's two grand for the disk if you want it, that's you.
And he was like, no, listen kid, we want, we're just gonna buy your,
we wanna buy your whole company.
And so, oh wow.
And so, yeah, so I, within a few months, uh, buy October,
2008, they gave me a check and.
I worked for them.
And from 2008 to March of 2009, the company went from, you know,
between 10, 11 million to 4 million.
It was pretty awful.
I mean, it, it was awful.
And so, was there a lot
of blowback on you because of it?
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
There was a lot.
Like, I mean, yeah, there was, uh, and, and you know,
I don't not blame 'em, right?
Like they, they spent a lot of money, you know, and so, and I, I had an
employment agreement with them for five years, but after a year I was like,
Hey, why don't you buy me out of this?
So they gave me a, you know, a few bucks and, and my pickup
truck and kicked me down the road.
But I had a business partner too, and he had little ones and so he stayed there.
So I left with my, you know, pretty much the deal was I didn't have to
have an NDA or whatever, so I left.
And that's when I started the ne I said, okay, let's see if I can breathe
life back into this sign tracker thing.
And so I had, um, I had hired a software development company to help me.
And, uh, after spending, I mean, it's almost embarrassing to say this cuz I
didn't really know what I was doing, but I spent like 150 grand pretty quick.
And, and in today's day with software development, that's nothing.
Right?
But back then, you know, my and my wife, she was, she put the kibosh
on that, you know, she's like, you, you need to go get a job.
This is this little sign tracker thing is you're done.
And um, so right before I just scrapped the whole thing, I went
to a south by Southwest, cuz here that happens in Austin.
So I went to a seminar on, uh, how to build software as a service.
And so I go to this thing and I'm sitting in there and it's the guy that had
founded Fresh Books that's given the talk.
Oh, okay.
And, and so really cool dude.
I ended up talking to him afterwards for a while and he would just
said to me, he goes, Joe, look, He goes, right now you have, you
have a hundred percent of nothing.
He goes, so why don't you find a couple of developer guys?
So what?
Give up half the company, at least you'll have half of something.
So I found a couple of developers and we've been in
business together ever since.
They're great guys.
And we all kept, I went back to work in the sign industry and uh, and we just
slowly but surely started developing sign tracker just as a side project.
And then about five years ago we went full-time.
So that's the sign tracker story.
Fascinating.
Absolutely stunning and fascinating.
I, I, second question from me before, I'll, I'm gonna be selfish
and ask two before Brian asks one.
Okay.
To this day, what is your favorite feature about
Sign Tracker?
I would say I really like the job flow board.
I like the visual, which I know, you know, Trello and there's a lot of
different job flow boards out there, but I, I think, um, For me, I really
like the job flow board, the ability to visually organize all my jobs.
Uh, and then, you know, obviously when you click into a job card, uh, it's
being able to have everything like an electronic job folder, be able to
do everything and have everything in one place rather than piles of paper
and whiteboards and all that stuff.
So I think, yeah, just having the jobs in one place visually where you can
see them all is probably my favorite.
I bet you
half of our listeners right now, if not the majority of them, are probably
like, yep, that's ama, that's such a simple feature and thank you so much for
creating that and simplifying our lives.
Ah, this is a, this is the bread and butter, like the job flow.
Like, if you can't get that right, Yeah.
Hey.
Like, you know, like the rest of it is just a, a nightmare to deal with anyway.
Yeah.
And that's, that's kind of what struck me.
Like, uh, before we had you on, we were talking about, we had you
do the shop management software demo series with us and mm-hmm.
You know, we walked away from that impressed of just like, h how close it
was to the, how a assigned person thinks.
Mm-hmm.
And like you, just the way that you structured sign tracker, uh,
of just having like, here's the board, like everything starts here,
ends up over there and it's mm-hmm.
Like, it just fits the mental model for, I, I think a ton of side guys.
Yeah.
And
gals.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
And then, and then to be able to, you know, at any point click
into one of those cards on the board and have everything there.
I mean, I, I don't know, you know, in your shop when you were in a shop, but
you know, back in the nineties and two thousands, everything was a paper folder.
And I, I, I swear we spent half of our project management time searching for
like, where the hell is that permit?
Where, you know, and it's, it's so nice to have everything in one place.
For sure.
Be excellent.
Excellent.
You got another one, Peter,
or no?
You're good.
Oh, I got, I got, I got so many more.
So many more.
I just want, I don't wanna be rude.
I don't wanna take the win from your sales.
Uh,
so I like, my question would probably be on the sign tracker side, like what
were the biggest takeaways from like your days of running the sign shop that
you incorporated into sign tracker?
Like, do do, is that like a conscious thing that you were, or, or was
it just like a, a, an unconscious thing of like, Hey, I'm building
the software that I would want?
Yeah, I was originally, that was the thing, right?
So originally when I started and before I brought, you know, before I joined,
uh, you know, brought on a couple of partners and all that, I had this whole
thing designed out, you know, in, I mean all the ui, all the stuff, you know,
I, because I'm a very visual person and originally it was my thought was,
oh, every single detail of how I ran my shop is gonna go into sign tracker.
And I am actually so thankful that we had no money because, because if
I had developed that, it would've been a great application for a very
small slice of the sign industry.
Cuz, I mean, think about running a 10 million electric sign shop.
There's not a lot of those out there.
So it would've been way overdeveloped.
For your average sign shop that has three to 10 people.
So for me, you know what's been amazing is seeing, cuz I just in my
mind had, you know, you, you start, you grow, you run a shop this way.
Um, and to be able to see all the different creative ways that people
make a living in this business, right?
And run businesses.
And build teams.
And so I have, we, you know, thankfully because we have done it
slow, we were able to keep it simple.
Not overdevelop it, it doesn't have all these buttons that take you
to nowhere and that you never use.
And so I'm grateful for that actually, that it's, that I was able to see
that there's a simpler way to do things other than just the way I
thought they needed to be done.
But my experience helps a lot too.
Like, I mean, the, the business needed a, an industry expert to the product
needed an industry expert to, to be able to develop it correctly too.
So, Yeah.
And, and all my time spent at the competitor, uh, we won't name them
on this one, but, uh, that was my experience as well of like, you know,
you have to have people that come from the industry to sell and support
software that you're selling to the industry, because if you don't mm-hmm.
It's, it's just a nightmare.
Um, because there's mm-hmm.
It, it's not really selling the software, like the software sells itself.
Mm-hmm.
It's more in on the support side.
Mm-hmm.
And if you can't speak the lingo, if you don't understand the challenges
of a shop owner, it's, it's, it is very difficult being in this market.
Mm-hmm.
It is.
And, and, um, and I, and I, and I love that part of the business.
You know, I, I haven't, um, my last sign shop, my daughter and my son-in-law
took it over, you know, and um, so I haven't worked in a sign shop in
close to five years now, but I still feel like I do, cuz I'm helping solve
problems every single day talking to folks and our support person.
Our main support person that helps me.
She was a project manager at my last shop.
Uh, and then one of our developers actually grew up in a sign shop and
then owned his own sign shop for three years before he, you know, went back
to school and became a developer.
So it's kind of nice that three of us and then my other two main business
partners, they've been in it now so long, like they know all the lingo
they've, they've had to listen to, you know, talk to sign folks constant,
and listen to me constantly, you know.
So what does the, what does the
support team at Sign
Tracker look like right now?
So right now it's me.
And then I have, um, we have a full-time support person, Brooke, and both of
us, you know, pretty much we, you know, we have a, an internal chat tool.
Our response time on that is anywhere from three to five minutes.
So we're, we're on it, you know, we just live in it.
And, uh, and then also both of the development partners that are here
in the us, they're in, uh, Reno.
They also, uh, will monitor that.
So when it comes to, when it comes to like the first level of support,
like, oh, I forgot my password.
Oh, you know, and some basic functionality questions, Brooke
and I, you know, take care of that.
And then if it gets into like, Hey, I imported, you know, the wrong.
Spreadsheet with all my customers names.
So Ben, we'll bring in one of the developers to be able to get all
that outta the database and reimport.
So it just depends on the tier, but so, but there's four of us
that are actively monitoring it.
We, the other junior developer that we have actually lives in Brazil, and so he's
the one that grew up in the sign shop.
So he is, um, he develops, he doesn't really get too much involved in support.
He's just mostly developing.
So there's four of us that are pretty active in support and, and sign
tracker's.
Current, uh, employee count is up to, uh, what now?
I'm sorry about employee count,
a customer count, excuse me, customer count.
But we, we have uh, around 500.
So we're just a smidge under 500 right now.
500 customers?
Yep.
505 red and shops?
Yep.
500 shops.
Got it.
So as a follow up to that, what is your plan to attract your next
500 owners?
So we, you know, Ooh, good question.
No, it's a, it's a, it is a good question.
It's a great question.
Um, and, and we're, we're, you know, how do you get traction in marketing, right?
So I will readily admit that I am a shake your hand.
Let's go out to lunch.
Uh, let me come to your office and give a presentation and tell you stories
around the sign projects we did.
So I'm a very high touch sales approach kind of a guy.
And then, then you have this online product where, you know, it's, I
mean, not that you still don't want to give people a sense of that you're
in tune to them and all that stuff, but it's, it's a lower touch, right?
Like, how do you fill that top end of the funnel?
It's been a, it's been a challenge.
You know, for me it has been a little challenge and, but I'm learning,
you know, old dog new tricks.
So I think you guys know, we started, uh, behind the signs, and originally
we started the behind the science group on Facebook, kind of as a.
Alternative to a few of the other big sign groups that were on Facebook,
that there's some great stuff on those, but really wanted to kind of focus
on one that was kind of elevating the sign industry together, right?
Where people could support each other.
So behind the Signs has been a place where sign shops can come and support.
We're offering, you know, hopefully content that's, that's helpful to them.
Business development content, I mean, nothing to the extent that you guys
are doing with applications and stuff, but that is having a, and people are
starting to associate that group with, Hey, look at all this stuff that the
Sign Tracker folks are giving us and providing for us and not charging us.
And so slowly but surely we're seeing our top end funnel increase.
We're seeing, um, trials increase, conversions increase.
So I think we're gonna double down on behind the signs and just keep
trying to put out really positive, helpful content to the industry.
And we really feel that that's gonna get us to our next 500 customers.
Plus word of mouth.
You know, friends are te I mean, sign shops are telling their friends,
which, you know, in our industry can be a little, they don't tend to do
that as much as they probably should.
Yeah, agreed.
Agreed.
I think it was, uh, who was, it was Tom mle Trot that we had on here a couple
episodes ago, and he, uh, he was talking about the days when him and his brothers
would go and actually they would just randomly walk up to other shops and
as soon as the, the shop owner learned that they were, they were shop owners
themselves, they were sign painters, uh, they would put away all the stuff
that, all the drawings, like all the paint, like everything is going up.
Yeah.
Just because they didn't want to share that kind of stuff.
But yeah, I, I, I think what you're doing with behind the signs is, is really cool.
And, uh, you know, definitely fits a, along the same lines of what
we're trying to do is just educate and provide resources to, to help
everybody grow.
Yeah, exactly.
And there's enough work out there for everyone.
Right.
If you, if you look at, I mean, If I was to go out and start another
sign shop today, a, a third one.
Well, first, a, my wife would divorce me, but I'm, uh, you know,
mine too.
Uh, yeah, and my wife's a lawyer too, so I'm screwed.
Like I would just have to sign a blank.
But, you know, I would just, I would just keep it small.
I would do two or three, two or three things, you know, very, very well
and maybe outsource the rest of it, you know, and just keep it simple and
manageable and make a living, like the idea, like for me, the idea of growing
another big shop, it's like, ah, no way.
I wouldn't want to do that.
I like that idea.
I like that.
Being a niche shop is definitely something, not too many pe not too many
people do their first go around, but I definitely can echo something like that.
So.
Just kind of, let's let, let me kind of finalize that thought there.
You you, great answer on how to get your next customers.
I love the approach.
I was just telling my friend Carol, uh, I was texting her the other day and she's
in payroll, um, merchant processing.
Mm-hmm.
And I, and she's, and she's doing this remotely.
And I'm like, oh, well, you know, you're a beautiful girl.
You know, you're young, you're energetic, you're a family woman too, so people are
gonna resonate with you, but you gotta get out there and you gotta shake some hands.
And she goes, well, what's, what's like an important thing that I can do?
I'm like, I'll tell you a quick little story.
I, the only reason why I went with a local guy that did my merchant processing
was because he came to my door mm-hmm.
And said, I will, I will.
I shook your hand, gave me a coffee mug.
And he said, I'm gonna deliver receipt paper.
I'm dating myself.
Receipt paper for life for you.
This guy would always come with like a box of.
Receipt paper, like mm-hmm.
20, 30 rolls and, you know, you never want to be out of receipt paper, but
I don't even think we do receipt paper anymore, but most, most receipts are
invoice, uh, emailed and things like that.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, there, there's that, let me shake your hand approach.
So I, I love that.
Mm-hmm.
I love that you do that.
I think that's what makes you unique.
I would hope that one day, uh, whenever it comes, when you get your thousandth
customer, that you do not change that.
Mm-hmm.
Although you probably have to shake a lot more hands.
Mm-hmm.
And that might be something that you're gonna love to do.
Yeah.
But it's, it's gotta, it, it correlates to your level of customer service.
See, here's my take on it.
Okay.
With the other competitors of yours, a sign shop is an account that
pays a monthly retainer mm-hmm.
That has, that uses the software.
And as that number increases, So to do the voices, the level of increased
support tickets that you will have.
Mm-hmm.
Um, innovation.
So many, I could keep going.
So many more things will also increase as your customer bandwidth does.
Mm-hmm.
However, um, with, with that being said,
what
are your plans for growing?
Not necessarily your customer base, but growing with technology?
Yeah.
Is there a plan?
Mm-hmm.
Is there a plan with the, the development of, say, new apps, integrations with new
apps that are PR built around productivity and maybe chat G P T and other things
like that, that are AI related?
Mm-hmm.
What are your plans in that area?
Uh, well chat g p t is super helpful for me to write articles, you know,
so for, for out, for outlines, you know, uh, so no, but all, you know,
all joking aside with that, I, I have, I have found it useful actually.
Um, but no, where, you know, I'm, you know, I am, again, not a developer,
but I am, I am grateful that I have really, really great development
partners and engineers that I work with.
And so I think what's gonna drive the growth of the product in Sign Tracker
is what's been driving it, right?
Like list, yes, we've been a little limited, um, in our ability to add
features that we really want to just because we're a small team, but we
are growing and as we grow, we're reinvesting back into the business.
Like we're we all live.
I mean, this little green screen right here, right behind it is my garage.
And you know, like we, we all work remote.
We keep our, you know, our overhead really lean so that we
can invest back in the business.
So, The more we, you know, grow the base of our customers and listen
to what their challenges are.
We're developing solutions around that.
And that's pretty much how we've done it right from the beginning.
They needed a place to be able to store all their files.
Okay?
So we built file storage within the job.
They needed a place to view all their files in this source.
Okay?
So we built viewers.
Now, you know, now, hey, I need to be able to send contracts straight
out of the, um, the app and have clients sign them like a DocuSign.
Okay?
So we adopted that and did that.
So, and, and we don't just like, I think we're, a lot of the other software
products make mistakes is they, they have one client that bugs the crap out of them
for one feature and then they build it.
And maybe that one client and a few others are happy.
But next thing you know, You know, they've done it again and again and again.
And then they have this product that's bloated where a lot
of the features aren't used.
So we try really hard to interview a lot of clients before we add another feature.
And I think we're gonna keep, keep going down that path.
Yes, we do want to do some more integrations.
We're actually interviewing someone next week that kind of specializes
in integration so that we can think about some of the important
things that we should integrate.
Like the requests, we've had a lot of requests over the past couple years.
Can it integrate with Google Calendar or whatever.
So, but yeah, our, we're, we're de they, the application, the product is not
stagnant, I'll just put it that way.
We, we are constantly working on it and, and doing little sprint releases.
Based on the customer feedback.
So we're gonna keep going in that direction for now.
Unless, uh, someone out there in Beil sign shop land has a couple mill they're
wanting to throw on sign tracker, then we'll ramp up really quick.
You know, you took the win from my sales on the next question there.
But, but ideally, your philosophy on handling new feature request
is centered around a, a pretty rigorous interview between mm-hmm.
You and a collection of clients, not necessarily just one client.
So is this feature, uh, I guess, you know, everybody likes to have a voice.
Mm-hmm.
So what is, what is the overall thought process for you on
how your company handles.
Request, is it something that they can respect?
Is it something that they think is, it goes into a queue and over
promising and underdelivering?
What is
your process for that?
Yeah, I, I, you know, I'm your typical sign sales guy, so I've had,
I've had bad habits in my life of over-promising and un underdelivering,
but, but now that I'm, now that I'm
old
and wise, I've, uh, I've stopped doing that.
Um, so basically when somebody, you know, when we're pretty honest with them, right?
Like if, if somebody gives us a feature request, we do respond right away.
It goes into, you know, um, a system that we keep to track all those requests.
We respond right away.
We'll ask questions around, and we keep, you know, notes on
the answers to those questions.
What, you know, what is your use case based like, like why, why would you,
what would you use this feature for?
How would it help your business?
And then when we get enough people that might ask and we let them
know, like we we'll honest with them, like, this is a great idea.
We're gonna put this on our development.
Ideas board and um, ideas board.
There you go.
Yeah.
We're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna promise it's going into the queue.
It'll go on the board, but, you know, if we get enough, if we get 10 people
that ask for this feature, and it seems like something that could be
added in a six to eight week sprint, and we can talk to a few other folks a
around that suggestion, then we do it.
And so I love that
approach.
I love the approach, you know, tech companies, not necessarily just in this
space, but when they hear a feature, they're like, okay, let's get that done.
Oh, especially if they're an emerging brand and they're looking to make their
current roster of customers really happy.
They're, I love that you said the word bloated, because that's
what the product ends up being.
Is it?
Mm-hmm.
It kind of morphs into something.
Beyond what?
Beyond the original strategy.
Kind of like what we're doing here in the Better Sign shop.
You know, I'll use our own platform as an exp.
We are developing enhanced features, but we are not coming up with a P O s.
Despite my numerous attempts.
We're not, we're not doing a
p, we're just not gonna do it.
And,
and, and the vision is clear and we're continuingly taking and
speaking to people on a platform that are asking us for features.
And I love the, I love the, what'd you call it?
The, the ideas board.
Yeah.
I normally revert to a queue.
Yeah.
But the fact that there is like a step before the queue there is I love that.
Yeah.
I, I love that very, very much applaud to you for putting
something like that in play for you.
I, I think that's great.
I think that's going to lead to a lot more success in the short
term and long term for you.
Good.
Thanks.
I, I'm gonna follow this up with, I have two more, two
or three more questions left.
All right.
And, and I know we're running a little short on time here,
so I'll make 'em quick, but.
For me
and I guess for the, the hundreds of listeners that we have out there.
Why, and I'm, I'm sure you have a queued up answer for this, so I'm
gonna just ask you why should our listeners use the software over
others?
And I, you know, you don't want to just say, well, look, it's designed, it's,
it's where, where, where can I go here?
I don't know if I have this queue up.
I don't wanna, I obviously, my first thought is, well, it's, it's affordable,
but, but I don't want to, we don't wanna just be known as like the affordable
solution in the sign industry.
There's reasons, you know, there's reasons why we probably are priced
the way we're priced because our target is for smaller shops.
But I would say, look, sign tracker.
We know that the majority of our customers are not staring
at a computer all day, right?
Like, they need to get in, get some information, store a file, make a
note, assign a task, and probably gonna be out in the shop making signs
or out in the field installing signs.
So they're, they're a combination of, you know, uh, owner operator.
So I think with sign tracker, you know, it's, and especially if
you're transitioning from, let's say even, even even a, like a
Trello app or something like that, where you want a little bit more
functionality that's sign shop related.
But certainly if you're coming from any kind of a whiteboard
paper folder, keep it in my head.
All those obviously places, sign tracker's a great step
in, in, in the right direction.
We've had some customers that have about grown us.
Um, we had a shop that had, you know, 40 employees and they
needed a full e r P system.
Um, they needed bar coding and, you know, Time tracking for, uh,
you know, for their cus for against the job, you know, all that stuff.
And that's fine.
We were excited that they were with us for five years and went
on to a, you know, Epicor, which is like a big giant er p system.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, but I think for, for, if you look at the makeup of most sign shops of,
you know, up to five, between five and 10 employees, sign tracker's ideal.
It's simple, it's affordable.
The support is great.
And so, yeah.
And you get to know me, Joe.
Yeah.
I, I, and I like
that.
So you are between, so your, your ideal customer from your perspective that you're
targeting is a shop three to 10 employees.
Mm-hmm.
Is it that, is there a specific, uh, industry, like can they do wrap?
Can they be wrap shops?
Can they be print shops?
Can they be vinyl, electrical?
What's the ideal shop look like?
Uh,
All of the above.
Um, all the above.
Yeah.
It's, it's all of the above.
So that's the other thing too, cuz there are some, you know, some of the
applications that are out there that are very specific to electric sign
shops, there's some that are very specific to just vinyl shops, right?
So with sign tracker, it's pretty flexible cuz really the only vari
variable in, in those different types of products are gonna be the quoting
templates, the task templates that you, and you can build them yourself.
You're, you're, you're, it's really flexible.
So on the same quote worksheet in sign tracker, you could do a
channel letter set, window vinyl, and a box wrap all on one quote.
And you can manage it through the system, that job, all on one ticket.
So, or divide it up into several tickets, but it's really geared for the, the
shop that does a little, you know, it's, it's fine for shops that just do
vehicle wraps, but it's real, it's really flexible enough for shops that do I do a
little bit of everything kind of thing.
Yeah.
That's which a lot of small, a lot of small shops do that.
Right, that's
what I was gonna say.
Yeah.
Hey, like there's a, a lot of convergence happening lately with
equipment costs going down and, uh, just, you know, everybody
doing a little bit of everything.
Yeah.
Um, okay.
So I'm a, I'm a sign shop and I have four employees and I'm doing
sub a million dollars in gross sales, and I have over, let's just
say, over 300 customers in my book.
Majority of my book is probably made up of 50 50 new business and repeat business.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I decide, I meet you, you walk into my shop and I
say, J and I see you seem like a really fascinating human being.
I shake your hand and you tell me all about sign tracker and
I decide this is really a good opportunity for me to get in with a
software.
What does
the onboarding with your software software look like for
a shop like me?
So, well, first we have a 14 day free trial, right?
No credit card.
Nothing.
And so as soon as someone signs up, we reach out to them immediately.
I do, um, every week standing webinars.
So I would say like, Hey, you know, come to our Wednesday webinar where
I do a complete overview of the app, really focused on project,
the project flow side of the app.
And we ask questions and sort of, you know, and we literally,
we'll show them like, Hey, this is how you set your employees up.
This is how you set your task templates up.
This is how to organize your job flow board.
I mean, it comes pre-organized, but if you, if, if your workflow
is a little different, we help you change it and tweak it.
And so we get them kind of in there getting used to entering
their jobs and used to the flow.
And then the more complicated side, I think of any.
App in our industry is gonna be the quoting side, right?
So on on.
Then once a week I have one webinar that just focuses on quoting, you know,
the first webinar I will show them like how the quotes feed into the jobs.
But the second webinar, all I do is like how to set up your materials, how
to set up your labor, and this come, it comes with some stuff, but how to edit
those, um, how to, how to set up formula items if you, if you use formula items.
And then how to build product templates that feed into the
jobs to make quoting quicker.
So it after, uh, and they can come to those like their, their live links on
our DA on the dashboard right inside their app where they can click and just
join the webinar every week, two a week.
I also do a lot of individual training too.
So if they feel like, you know, cuz two or three sign shops will
show up every week at those things.
And sometimes people feel a little intimidated about talking
about their shop or their needs.
So I will also set up one-on-one training sessions with them too, if it's needed.
But we're committed to staying with them.
You know, and, and partnering with them until they're using
the app and feeling like they're, they're being successful with it.
So, yeah.
Nice.
That's what we do right now.
So it's a handholding approach.
Mm-hmm.
And it's free and it's free to sign up.
What is the typical, uh, user signing up with?
Is there a price point that
they
are there, is guided towards?
Yep.
So it's two, for two users, it's 49 bucks a month.
And if they sign up for a year, usually on the first year, we give
them a 25% off coupon for their, if they decide to go for the year.
So to get into it initially, it's not a lot of money.
Yes.
It's nothing, it's not a lot of money.
Yeah.
And then you get from three to five users, it's 99 bucks a month,
which I mean, I, I would, I would say those two groups make up about
half, you know, half the business.
And then, and once you get to six users, then it's unlimited and it's 149 a month.
So that's it.
I mean, a hundred nine, a hundred forty nine a month.
If it keeps you from, you know, one banner job falling through
the cracks, it pays for itself.
You know?
Absolutely.
So at
one, even at 1 49 a month, if I, if I didn't have six employees,
it's not about our price, right?
We're not mm-hmm.
I'm sure you don't get a lot of pushback on price in terms of signups.
Mm-hmm.
So what is the, what is the major piece?
What's the missing component here?
What are people asking for that you don't
have, or
what is it exactly that's preventing you from having
more
than 500 users?
Yeah.
I, I would say, you know, and, and the past, you know, the past few
years since we all sort of jumped ship from our day jobs and started doing
this, first it was just two of us.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So it's been, it's been bandwidth on development, you know, and band marketing.
But we're, we're getting, we're getting some really good stride going now, but I
would say, you know, the, the big thing that we're working on right now and.
Probably we should have done it sooner, but we're doing it now.
So it's okay.
Is the ability, you can send the contract out of sign track
or you can get it signed.
You can get approved.
All that information goes into QuickBooks.
So you can generate your invoices and do your receivables and all that stuff.
But the ability to send the proof and then accept credit
card payment right in the app.
I would say really, other than that, sign Tracker has everything else.
The sign shop needs, and we know that we don't have that and it makes me want
to, I should find something sharp and stab myself in the eye, but, you know,
but, but we're working on it, right?
Yeah.
I'll, we won't do that.
We're working on it and it's, it is our major push right now,
like that's what we're doing.
But other than that, I think Sign Tracker has everything.
A shop, you know, a smaller shop needs, right?
So you get into 25 employees, 20.
Not that we don't have customers, we do have customers that have,
you know, 20 employees and 25 employees that do big electric.
Projects and they just like sign tracker and they're sticking with it
and I'm sure they have other things that help them with um, time tracking or
whatever, but, um, or inventory controls.
But, but I think, yeah, I think sign trackers, I think once we have that
piece built and it's gonna happen this year, then the rest of it's just
continuing to enhance it and listening to customers and keeping on that same path.
I think that, I
think it's great.
Joe, I'm on your website right now.
I'm checking out a couple of things.
I mean people, how
could people find you?
Uh, they can find me.
Uh, they just go to sign-tracker.com and, uh, and we're, you know, they
can, I'm just joe sign-tracker.com so you're always welcome to send
me an email directly, you know.
Much to my, much to my wife's disapproval.
I usually give people my, all of my customers, all our customers
have my cell phone, which could make vacations very tricky.
Yes.
I, I don't know why you do
that, but because I, cuz I'm insane.
I mean, I do try, I do, I'm trying to get better at that, you know, but, uh, but I,
I do try to make myself super accessible, but they can reach me@joesign-tracker.com.
Um, also, you know, I spend a lot of time these days on Behind the Signs,
the Facebook group, behind the Signs.
We have our, on our website, sign-tracker.com, we have our, um,
TOLLFREE number and all that stuff, uh, published right on the top of the screen.
So, yeah, any, you can reach out to us, all those, all those ways.
Excellent.
So, Joe, one of the things that I, I think is just like watching you interact on
Behind the Signs and just with your own audience, I get the sense that you're a
guy like me that likes Talking Shop, that may be like your favorite part of the job.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so I'm assuming you talk with a lot of shop owners and mm-hmm.
Like, one thing that, that comes up a lot on our coaching calls,
or even like the, the mastermind calls that we do is like the, the
mental side of owning a sign shop.
Mm-hmm.
And this is kind of shifting away from the software talk, but, uh,
one concept that we've seen come up a lot is the, this making this jump
from being a technician to an owner.
And, and like hearing you describe your.
Like your journey into the, the sign industry At first, it, it
seems like you kind of came in as a, like an owner mindset.
Mm-hmm.
At, at that very first shop that you started at of mm-hmm.
Like, Hey, I'm in my evening time, I'm gonna sit down and knock out
some forms so things run smoother.
But I would say on the, the side tracker side, you probably deal with
a lot of folks who are starting out in their own side shop after working
as a installer, production person, or a designer as a, at a different shop.
Mm-hmm.
Would, would you say that's true?
Like, do you interact with a lot of people like that?
Yes.
And so I, I saw that question that you, uh, sent to me.
You know, the, the making the shift from being a technician to an owner and, you
know, and I, uh, I think I went through that at a younger age cuz I, you know, I.
My first business I lived in, I lived in Southern California.
I was in the Marine Corps.
Long story, I won't tell you all that stuff, but I was in the Marine Corps
for a few years and then after I got outta the Marine Corps, I went to,
uh, college to become a minister.
And so when I graduated, I had a degree in religion and I don't, I
don't know, man, I was like looking in the newspaper under the religion
section for jobs and there is none.
Right, right, right.
So I had a janitorial company, so I was out cleaning offices, you know, and
one, one night, it was like four in the morning, I was just exhausted to the bone.
I had three kids to feed.
My wife is in college full-time.
And I thought, this has gotta be a better way to do this.
You know, so I can't just be cleaning offices until the sun comes up every day.
It's gonna kill me.
And I think it's the idea that how can I, how can I go from doing the work to.
Managing the work and bringing the work in.
And, you know, if you, if you think about sign shops, you know, almost
every, oh, not almost everyone.
This is certainly some that start off as an entrepreneurial mindset and they
look at it as a great opportunity.
But I think a lot of, um, a lot of sign shops stop with exactly that, right?
On Monday, the installer shows up by Friday, he's so pissed off at his boss.
He says, screw it.
I'm outta here.
I'm gonna go start my own shop.
And whether it's a designer or an installer, whatever.
And then they get out there and they, they're still really good at
being an installer, but they don't even know where to begin to make
that shift as a business owner.
And I think for, for me, I always try to say people, first of all,
sales, think about your company as not an install company.
You are a sales organization.
That does insults.
Right?
So you, you need, you need, you know, that's
a good's a, it's a good shift to
start there to do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Start there.
And then a lot of times they'll say, well, I'm not really a salesy
kind of person, you know, I, look, I'm not a used car salesman, kind
of a guy either, but nobody is this passionate about your business than you.
You know, and nobody's gonna tell your story about why you started
that business better than you.
And so you gotta, I feel like you, you have to go out and make those connections
with people as a, I'm not just a sign, like, oh, I'm just a signed guy.
No, you're a business owner.
You know?
Right.
And so, and, and here's why you would like to work with my business.
Now, it could be that you're going back to your shop and like, holy crap,
how am I gonna get all this work done?
I gotta go do it myself.
But then I think the second sta, the second stage there is trust, right?
So you hire people.
I hear this a lot where it's like, oh man, what's, what's
the bottleneck at your shop?
Well, I can't get quotes out the door.
Why can't get quotes out the door?
Because the owner keeps everything in his head.
What's your schedule?
I don't know.
He keeps it all in his head, or she keeps it all in her head.
And somehow you get a, you get a shift out of that thinking and trust
the people that you hire, right?
That's where maybe system development comes in place.
So if you're a great installer, you love installing, but want to own and
install business, you're gonna have to make these shifts in, you know, your
thinking about who you are and about what you do at the business as far as
business development, like the work you guys are doing with shop owners.
Great.
Um, I mean, what we do pro helping provide systems and tools, great.
But they have to decide themselves that they're gonna take these things and use
them to grow the business and grow people.
To run the business with them.
And if, and if they can't make that shift, look, if you're a great
installer out there and you don't think you can do all that stuff, just
go find a better company to work for.
Don't go start your own shop cuz it'll drive you nuts.
I, I
agreed.
Agreed.
That yeah.
That's a, that's my sentiment almost exactly.
Of like, Hey, if, if you're not a business owner, it's okay.
Like, if, if that's not in your dna, n a, it's not what makes you happy.
Like just because you can't make a great living at the current shop that
you're at or, you know, or, or maybe you've started out on your own and
you're going through this, like, it's not too late to go the other way.
And there's no, there's plenty of shops out there that are successful and treat
their employees well and pay well.
Mm-hmm.
And things like that.
Mm-hmm.
It's just, just a matter of finding them.
Yeah.
They're out there.
The other, one thing that I wanted to touch on before we let you go was just
like the, the mental health aspect.
I think you had, um, Sherry Walling on like an episode of your podcast.
Mm-hmm.
And I loved her book of how to, I forget the name of it now, how to like, be an
entrepreneur without losing your shit.
Yeah.
And I, I re, I've read through that book and I really like a lot of what
she said resonated with me because I am, I'm like, I would call myself
a recovering workaholic of mm-hmm.
Like, I, I w you could ask my wife and she might.
Say, not recovering or, but, but certainly, you know, the, the
mental side of the, this industry, like, we don't talk about a lot.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I talk to a lot of shop owners that are working 60, 80 hours a week.
Mm-hmm.
And I, I think as you and I both know, Pete knows it's usually not a
great recipe for success or mm-hmm.
Like, future success.
And I know you had some of your own struggles with, uh, like
overwork at your sign shop, and I, I've heard you talk about like
alcohol and, and things like that.
Would you care to expand on that just a little bit for our
listeners?
Sure.
Yeah.
I, I, I'm, I'm comfortable talking about, about that.
So, you know, I think, I think our brains need relief, right?
Like, we, we need relief.
We can't keep up with a 50, 60 plus hour work week and keep our shit together.
It just doesn't work.
Um, and so, You have to do something and, and just what we were talking
about earlier, maybe it's a, a matter of like building a team
and trusting and letting go.
And, but you know, for me, you know, I, I tend to be a control freak.
You know, I'm a little better now that I'm a little older.
But, um, and so I would stay at the shop.
I was your typical guy that would stay, work weekends and stay there,
you know, 40, 50 hours a week.
And, you know, and I, look, I grew up in the seventies, right?
So if it wasn't tied down, you'd snorted or smoke it, but, um, or drink it.
But, uh, you know, but, but, you know, but if it, but you know, I mean, in
my, but then I got married really young and I couldn't afford any of that crap.
And besides, I was trying to be a better person.
And, uh, so I didn't, I didn't really drink through my twenties and, and
into my thirties or any of that stuff.
But then, You know, work life started just becoming harder and harder.
And I found myself like, oh, I'll have a beer after work, or go out
with clients and have some drinks, or, you know, and this thing kind
of, you know, it snowballed, right?
So you do, you start doing one thing to relieve the pressure, and ultimately
we know it doesn't work and, but you tend to do more and more of it.
So I found myself, you know, year after year del developing a, a bad habit
with it as a way of relieving pressure.
And so, um, towards the end when I finally did, did stop drinking, um,
yeah, it was, it was becoming a problem.
I'm not talking about vodka bottles under the kitchen sink kind of drinking,
but it was every single night, you know, and some days going, going to
work, you know, a little hungover.
So for me, what happened was I was in between starting my, uh, in between
selling SciTech International.
And starting, uh, studio o with my daughter.
Um, I did work for a couple years for another sign shop while we
were building sign tracker, selling signs and, and, uh, I would stay at
that shop super late doing quotes.
And uh, sadly there was a brewery in that parking lot.
And so we got to know that the guys at the shop would go over
every night, drink, drinking.
It just became an every night ordeal.
And so, uh, one night I was sitting at my desk, I'm like three pints into doing
some quotes cause it was a smaller shop, so I had to do my own quotes and stuff.
And one of the guys from the shop just came up and said, Joe, he, he
was pretty just blatant in my face.
I think you're an alcoholic.
Ah, no.
You know, and, but he, he invited me to an AA meeting and I went and
I started hearing all these stories.
I'm like, holy crap, maybe I am an alcoholic, you know?
So I decided to take a 30 day break on alcohol and it's turned
into going on 10 years, so.
Wow.
Yeah.
But, you know, it doesn't mean that my addicted brain has necessarily shut off.
I just took up running, I became like, I became like the sign guy Fort Gump.
And so in, in 10 years I've run, uh, 20 marathons, a half a dozen trail,
runs a 50 mile trail run mountain runs.
I've done four half Iron Mans and I'm looking at my ribbon
wall over there, but, oh, nice.
Okay.
So, yeah, so just act, you know, for me it was like developing, uh, a spiritual
life, a better sense of self-worth.
And a lot of, uh, a hell of a lot of exercising, you know,
and, uh, and yeah, it's worked.
You know, I, I definitely feel like a happier, less
stressed out person these days.
Well, you, you definitely answered where I was gonna take that next was like,
you know, what are, were the skills and like the strategies that you developed
to, to combat the stress in instead of, you know, I, I would say it like
misusing alcohol because I, I've been there as well of like, Hey, I have
way too many beers a couple days in a row, and I'm like, wait, like I, you
know, this is, this is not healthy.
So, yeah.
That's great.
You took up running.
And I would, I would encourage, like all of our listeners, like if you're a shop
owner and you don't take time out of the day to exercise, just like for me,
I throw on a 30 pound, uh, BR backpack.
I've got a, like a flat weight that sits in my backpack.
I an hour every day.
That's what I do to, that's awesome.
To, to de-stress.
But if you don't have that, like you gotta start because you, you
can't keep it all up here like Joe
said.
No, you can't.
And, and, and it's different for everybody, right?
Like, so you might, you know, you might find that meditation, I use
the Calm app, which is really good.
Um, and I'm, I wish I could say I meditated every day, but I do try to
run, you know, at least four to five days a week and bike a few days a week.
And you just gotta find what works for you.
And, and I, I don't know if you, you know, I don't know if you watched the whole
episode with Sherry Walling, the interview that I did, but you know, I like what she
says a lot too, is get to a point your day where you say that's it enough is enough.
I mean, there's gonna be times when you push yourself and you're
gonna work those, you know, 15 hour days cuz you gotta get stuff done.
But take a break point and say, okay, I'm done.
I leave it here, breathe in whatever you need to do to separate yourself
mentally from the work and go home with your family and enjoy that.
You know, and uh, maybe it's hitting the gym on the way home for 45 minutes.
Who knows?
But you gotta do something for sure.
Perfect.
Well, Joe, uh, we appreciate you coming on.
It's been a, a really interesting conversation.
I was glad to, to have you back and, uh, you know, I, I've really enjoyed this.
Looking forward to what you guys do next with Sound Tracker.
Definitely keep us up to speed so we can, you know, inform our audience on what you
guys are up to when you get that, uh, that proof and pay feature that I know that'll
be very helpful for a lot of folks.
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you guys and I think you're doing great work out there too.
You know, there's not, there's not enough people out there helping
sign shop owners and, and you know, we all need that support for sure.
So you guys are doing great work too.
Absolutely.
Pete got any closing comments?
This was one of my favorites.
Thank you so much, Joe.
I'm probably gonna touch base with you a little bit offline.
I got some clients I think would be great for your software.
All right.
Uh, love to connect with you a little bit offline on that, but thank you
so much for jumping on here with us.
Um, I just sent Brian a private message.
I said this is not gonna be our last time speaking with him and
having him on the show here.
Uh, thank you again for jumping on and telling your story.
I, I, I learned a little bit.
I'm sure our listeners
did too.
Well, I appreciate you guys very much.
All excellent.
Thanks Jim.
Bye.
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