WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.336 --> 00:00:10.116 Kevin: Hello. 00:00:10.126 --> 00:00:15.556 Welcome back to Subspace Radio, and it's wedding day in subspace. 00:00:16.173 --> 00:00:17.563 Rob: Happy wedding day. 00:00:17.573 --> 00:00:18.873 It's a joyous day. 00:00:18.933 --> 00:00:22.263 The bells can be heard a-ringing around the subspace. 00:00:22.746 --> 00:00:23.976 Kevin: Hi Rob, how's it going? 00:00:24.503 --> 00:00:25.953 Rob: I am well, Kevin. 00:00:25.983 --> 00:00:30.763 Um, what a momentous episode to just sneak in four episodes in to 00:00:30.763 --> 00:00:33.073 an animated version of a franchise. 00:00:33.313 --> 00:00:36.873 Not only do we get another wedding, but it is on a planet we 00:00:36.873 --> 00:00:39.593 have never, ever visited before. 00:00:40.541 --> 00:00:45.021 Kevin: We are of course talking about Lower Decks season four episode four, 00:00:45.031 --> 00:00:52.321 Something Borrowed, something Green, in which D'Vana Tendi is called back to Orion 00:00:52.341 --> 00:00:57.931 in order to attend her sister's nuptials and, Something Borrowed, Something Green, 00:00:58.451 --> 00:01:02.231 it was pretty clear this was going to be a wedding to do with Orions, and I 00:01:02.231 --> 00:01:07.921 thought, Oh, no, is it gonna be Tendi's secret, betrothal to someone on her home 00:01:07.921 --> 00:01:10.166 planet, just like Spock in Amok Time? 00:01:10.171 --> 00:01:10.526 Oh yeah. 00:01:10.526 --> 00:01:14.626 We've been engaged since children and I, I thought for sure this was gonna 00:01:14.656 --> 00:01:16.816 be, does Tendi get married or not? 00:01:16.846 --> 00:01:18.226 But it was not, it was her sister. 00:01:18.968 --> 00:01:22.958 Rob: Yeah, that was focusing more on Tendi dealing with her connection 00:01:22.968 --> 00:01:25.848 with her Orion heritage and with her connection with her family. 00:01:26.198 --> 00:01:31.368 And how, her desire to go to Starfleet goes against everything 00:01:31.388 --> 00:01:33.108 that she's been brought up to be. 00:01:33.108 --> 00:01:36.331 And it's gives us a bit more of an insight into this character who is... 00:01:36.926 --> 00:01:41.326 a joy and a wonderful presence within the show, but we've always been 00:01:41.326 --> 00:01:46.011 alluded to this mysterious past of hers, but to finally just have it 00:01:46.011 --> 00:01:48.241 laid out before us, is was a delight. 00:01:48.329 --> 00:01:51.639 Kevin: I'm happy we went back there as well because we had that previous 00:01:51.639 --> 00:01:57.199 episode where they went to the Orion Colony and all of the Orions 00:01:57.219 --> 00:02:03.109 there were like deferring to her and calling her by that honorific. 00:02:03.109 --> 00:02:08.759 And Mariner was intensely curious, but we didn't get to learn the details, and 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.519 I'm glad now we came back and got to learn the details, because I was worried 00:02:12.519 --> 00:02:13.909 they were going to leave it mysterious. 00:02:15.139 --> 00:02:19.009 So yeah, this was very satisfying, I think, to get answers to many of 00:02:19.009 --> 00:02:20.889 our questions about D'Vana Tendi. 00:02:21.459 --> 00:02:25.221 Rob: Yeah, there was a little bit of repeating for me. 00:02:25.241 --> 00:02:29.014 It was, like, a couple of seasons ago with where we found out Billups's past and he's 00:02:29.014 --> 00:02:32.401 like this high ranking royal member of his 00:02:32.421 --> 00:02:34.041 Kevin: Yeah, Mariner even called it out. 00:02:34.051 --> 00:02:36.071 Do you live in a castle like Billups? 00:02:38.508 --> 00:02:41.948 Rob: Calling it out doesn't really make up the fact you're, yeah, doesn't really fix 00:02:41.948 --> 00:02:43.538 the fact you're repeating the same thing. 00:02:43.748 --> 00:02:47.838 A lot of different types of things, like Billups is royalty, whereas Tendi is 00:02:47.838 --> 00:02:52.868 more like a high ranking member of the, a wealthy member of the Orion Syndicate. 00:02:53.068 --> 00:02:55.538 But there was definitely the repeated thing of... 00:02:55.938 --> 00:03:00.138 For me, in many ways, it's just a case of, oh, okay, just a lowly 00:03:00.138 --> 00:03:03.798 member of the crew is, actually has, comes from this higher stock. 00:03:03.898 --> 00:03:08.498 But yeah, it, and again, but explains a lot about Tendi's striving to be 00:03:08.538 --> 00:03:14.918 humble and down to earth and focus on the, the high principles of Starfleet. 00:03:15.871 --> 00:03:20.461 Kevin: Lots of connections to past like Orion stuff that has 00:03:20.461 --> 00:03:22.191 appeared in passing in Star Trek. 00:03:22.551 --> 00:03:28.181 I saw references to Enterprise episodes, Borderland and Bound. 00:03:28.471 --> 00:03:33.841 I saw some visual references to the animated series, The Pirates of Orion, 00:03:33.851 --> 00:03:35.951 where they were all wearing scuba suits. 00:03:36.288 --> 00:03:36.728 Rob: Yes. 00:03:37.206 --> 00:03:41.576 Kevin: They paid off some bits of that and uh, even some uh, passing references 00:03:41.576 --> 00:03:48.259 to The Cage or The Menagerie, where Pike was bamboozled by Vina in Orion form. 00:03:48.316 --> 00:03:50.343 Rob: In Orion belly dancing outfits. 00:03:50.529 --> 00:03:50.969 Kevin: right. 00:03:51.096 --> 00:03:56.306 Several of the visual features of the "hump dungeon" in this episode were taken 00:03:56.306 --> 00:03:58.626 directly from that scene in The Cage. 00:03:58.779 --> 00:04:02.159 Rob: There was a particularly good moment when they focus on like the certain 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:07.319 females within the Orion Syndicate can release pheromones to bewitch the males. 00:04:07.369 --> 00:04:10.279 And when they're cleared up by Tendi, three of them just go, Oh 00:04:10.279 --> 00:04:11.989 man, we're in another hump dungeon. 00:04:13.742 --> 00:04:14.422 Kevin: Not again. 00:04:15.322 --> 00:04:20.982 I got a lot of laughs out of this episode just the name D'Erika was hilarious to me. 00:04:21.162 --> 00:04:24.552 They and her father's name is B'Rt. 00:04:24.572 --> 00:04:29.222 Just that, playing with that Star Trek thing of your name is 00:04:29.222 --> 00:04:33.732 a letter, an apostrophe, and then something normal was just hilarious. 00:04:33.832 --> 00:04:35.872 And yeah, I love that stuff. 00:04:36.102 --> 00:04:40.182 Mariner getting stabbed repeatedly in the same hole was a great visual gag. 00:04:40.182 --> 00:04:41.422 It made me laugh every time. 00:04:41.789 --> 00:04:44.929 Rob: I was about to mention that was, that was my highlight of the whole 00:04:45.009 --> 00:04:49.109 episode and they did the rule of three, one, two, how is that even possible? 00:04:49.119 --> 00:04:52.279 And then the third one, oh no, I'm hiding behind here, and lowering down, 00:04:52.379 --> 00:04:54.689 and then the ricochet, and get, oh god. 00:04:54.972 --> 00:04:56.242 Kevin: Oh, come on! 00:04:58.896 --> 00:05:02.406 Rob: T'Lyn was welcome as well, I think she's really, I mentioned 00:05:02.406 --> 00:05:05.626 this a couple of episodes, three, four episodes down and she's been 00:05:05.626 --> 00:05:11.126 in three and she's just seamlessly embedded herself into the crew. 00:05:11.172 --> 00:05:15.032 Kevin: Yeah she's very much filling that Seven of Nine role of like, 00:05:15.102 --> 00:05:20.506 kind of a late addition, feels like a guest star a bit, but has slotted 00:05:20.506 --> 00:05:25.116 straight into the crew and has a purpose in every episode she appears. 00:05:25.883 --> 00:05:29.723 Rob: Now, my favorite moment of the whole episode though, the stabbing of 00:05:29.723 --> 00:05:33.573 Mariner in the same spot three times is very good, but we have to go to our... 00:05:34.038 --> 00:05:39.758 B plot, where we, I I got to a point where I'm there going, what the hell 00:05:39.798 --> 00:05:46.048 am I watching, where we have Rutherford and Boimler, who have their perfect 00:05:46.198 --> 00:05:50.468 existence living as flatmates is ruined by their dealing with their bonsai tree. 00:05:50.658 --> 00:05:53.848 So they deal with the, they deal with it the only way they know how, going 00:05:53.848 --> 00:05:55.778 into a holosuite and getting obsessed. 00:05:56.068 --> 00:05:59.698 And they end up both showing up as Mark Twain. 00:06:00.408 --> 00:06:03.198 And both of them doing Mark Twain accents. 00:06:03.248 --> 00:06:05.018 And that solves all their problems. 00:06:05.306 --> 00:06:07.046 Kevin: It was so funny. 00:06:07.238 --> 00:06:10.528 Rob: It was frigging hilarious. 00:06:10.886 --> 00:06:12.856 Kevin: line had me in stitches. 00:06:13.016 --> 00:06:17.386 And just the setup of, oh yeah, of course, Mark Twain is a 00:06:17.386 --> 00:06:19.526 recurring character in Star Trek. 00:06:19.796 --> 00:06:21.946 How have we not played with that already? 00:06:22.483 --> 00:06:25.833 Rob: That's right, yeah, he appeared in Next Gen? 00:06:26.706 --> 00:06:27.636 Kevin: Yes, absolutely. 00:06:27.636 --> 00:06:30.226 Guinan knew Mark Twain personally. 00:06:30.276 --> 00:06:32.326 So when we went back in time... 00:06:32.726 --> 00:06:38.226 in Time's Arrow, we meet younger Guinan on Earth, who is rubbing 00:06:38.226 --> 00:06:39.796 shoulders with Samuel Clemens. 00:06:39.826 --> 00:06:43.946 And uh, the crew of the Enterprise have to hang out and make quick 00:06:43.946 --> 00:06:45.586 explanations for where they're from. 00:06:46.073 --> 00:06:55.203 Rob: I do declare um, very, very, very funny, just absolute oddball crazy. 00:06:55.596 --> 00:06:59.826 Kevin: I want to know who knew for sure this was going to work this well? 00:06:59.836 --> 00:07:04.156 Like, when they were writing it, did they already know that those actors could... 00:07:04.476 --> 00:07:07.406 make this level of gold out of it? 00:07:08.456 --> 00:07:11.406 Or did it come alive in the recording booth? 00:07:11.686 --> 00:07:15.116 But, ah, this is a highlight for the season for me, 00:07:15.116 --> 00:07:17.206 this, the, the Twain scenes. 00:07:17.793 --> 00:07:21.003 Rob: And then for that to be brought back in to solve the uh, 00:07:21.043 --> 00:07:22.373 Kevin: Which was ridiculous. 00:07:22.573 --> 00:07:24.383 I know how to solve this, Captain. 00:07:26.322 --> 00:07:31.453 Let's invite the angry alien to the holodeck and dress him up as Mark Twain. 00:07:31.980 --> 00:07:33.530 Rob: And he goes, you've got to speak in the southern accent. 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:35.550 I am from the southern region of my planet. 00:07:36.100 --> 00:07:37.640 This is our southern accent. 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:41.190 And then of course he sees the the bonsai tree and eats it, which is 00:07:41.592 --> 00:07:42.892 Kevin: Yes, great. 00:07:43.002 --> 00:07:48.102 That alien was a Chalnoth, and that is an alien we've seen once in an episode 00:07:48.102 --> 00:07:53.372 of The Next Generation called Allegiance, in which Captain Picard is abducted and 00:07:53.372 --> 00:07:59.432 put in a prison cell with a bunch of aliens and one other Starfleet officer 00:07:59.432 --> 00:08:04.152 who's an Andorian, if memory serves, or Bolean, yeah, I think she's a Bolean. 00:08:04.152 --> 00:08:07.192 But anyway, they are being experimented on. 00:08:07.262 --> 00:08:09.732 We could have talked about this in our in captivity 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:11.030 Rob: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 00:08:11.272 --> 00:08:15.182 Kevin: The experiment is, will they work together in order to escape, or 00:08:15.182 --> 00:08:17.872 will this situation tear them apart? 00:08:18.532 --> 00:08:22.922 Chalnoth in the room is the only one who cannot eat the supplied 00:08:22.922 --> 00:08:26.442 food, which is a disc of jelly. 00:08:27.026 --> 00:08:31.756 So it is, it is a recurring theme now that Chalnoths are picky eaters. 00:08:33.170 --> 00:08:33.400 Rob: Yeah. 00:08:33.400 --> 00:08:33.720 It was great. 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.865 We had a return of the, it was a very Orion centric episode. 00:08:37.865 --> 00:08:40.545 We had our pre title, cold opener scene. 00:08:40.785 --> 00:08:44.225 We've had the Klingons be destroyed, we've had the Romulans be destroyed, 00:08:44.225 --> 00:08:48.721 and now we sadly had an Orion ship destroyed by this mysterious ship. 00:08:49.081 --> 00:08:49.531 Kevin: Yeah! 00:08:49.706 --> 00:08:54.125 I didn't particularly love or dislike that that cold open. 00:08:54.125 --> 00:08:58.445 I thought it was another of those and it established, for those who 00:08:58.445 --> 00:09:02.465 might not remember, who the Orions are and what they're like before we 00:09:02.465 --> 00:09:03.965 go and visit them on their planet. 00:09:03.965 --> 00:09:07.815 So it filled a uh, purpose, but I didn't think it was. 00:09:08.045 --> 00:09:09.505 especially strong. 00:09:10.162 --> 00:09:13.732 Rob: The writers didn't have as much fun as they had with the Romulans. 00:09:13.752 --> 00:09:16.432 I think they've had the most fun with that scene. 00:09:16.542 --> 00:09:16.802 Kevin: Right. 00:09:16.822 --> 00:09:17.202 Yeah. 00:09:17.592 --> 00:09:22.852 The mentions of the more senior Orion getting metal plates stuck to her 00:09:22.852 --> 00:09:25.032 head, that's a reference to Enterprise. 00:09:25.092 --> 00:09:29.922 Some of the Orion pirates in Enterprise had pieces of metal stuck to their 00:09:29.932 --> 00:09:31.782 skin and it was part of the costume. 00:09:31.782 --> 00:09:33.615 And so yeah, they're calling back to that. 00:09:34.122 --> 00:09:38.062 And the pirate ship that they're on has grabby arms hanging at the bottom. 00:09:38.062 --> 00:09:40.942 And that's a visual reference to the animated series 00:09:40.962 --> 00:09:43.492 appearance of the Orion Pirates. 00:09:43.492 --> 00:09:48.412 But yeah a serviceable cold open, but yeah, not as good as the Romulan one 00:09:48.412 --> 00:09:50.362 that I'm still chuckling about from 00:09:50.449 --> 00:09:52.769 Rob: That is, yeah, that has been the highlight of all 00:09:52.769 --> 00:09:54.259 those, those little scenes. 00:09:54.619 --> 00:09:58.079 But yeah, we're four episodes down and it's been quite solid this season 00:09:58.079 --> 00:10:03.059 and the, there's, they're really still keeping it very Star Trek and honouring 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:06.349 all that stuff, but they're throwing in some amazing curveballs that I 00:10:06.349 --> 00:10:10.469 never thought I would see before and using a holodeck with not only two 00:10:10.469 --> 00:10:12.739 Mark Twains, but four Mark Twains. 00:10:13.817 --> 00:10:19.497 Kevin: I also enjoyed the end, the wedding ceremony, the gender reversal 00:10:19.497 --> 00:10:25.537 of having the groom walk down the aisle with the father and and 00:10:25.537 --> 00:10:27.587 have Mariner go, he looks radiant. 00:10:27.677 --> 00:10:28.467 That was fun 00:10:28.567 --> 00:10:29.820 Rob: There've been little hints of that. 00:10:29.820 --> 00:10:33.370 Kevin: Yeah, there have been, yeah they're a matriarchal society. 00:10:33.420 --> 00:10:35.290 That is very well established now. 00:10:35.290 --> 00:10:38.080 And seeing that play into the wedding ceremony was nice. 00:10:38.420 --> 00:10:40.550 I was a little worried about that at first when it was. 00:10:41.035 --> 00:10:45.345 Established that bridal abductions were a thing, and I'm like, oh wow, so 00:10:45.395 --> 00:10:50.665 leaning into the damsel in distress trope does not feel very matriarchal to me, 00:10:50.665 --> 00:10:52.265 but they brought it around in the end. 00:10:52.847 --> 00:10:53.587 Rob: Many levels. 00:10:53.587 --> 00:10:55.627 The Orions are many different shades of green. 00:10:56.351 --> 00:10:57.041 Kevin: Ha ha ha! 00:10:57.211 --> 00:10:58.161 They are literally! 00:10:58.161 --> 00:11:00.401 When they're standing next to each other, I was like, wow, there's 00:11:00.401 --> 00:11:01.771 a lot of different greens here. 00:11:02.192 --> 00:11:05.682 Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I noticed that as well, going like, like the tone and 00:11:05.782 --> 00:11:09.662 can we just talk about the drinking game with the spider slug thing? 00:11:10.075 --> 00:11:11.315 Kevin: The murder bug drinking 00:11:11.462 --> 00:11:12.662 Rob: Murderbug, yeah. 00:11:13.056 --> 00:11:13.906 Kevin: I was enjoying it. 00:11:13.906 --> 00:11:17.156 I was, I remember laughing through that scene at just how, again, 00:11:17.166 --> 00:11:19.246 what the heck am I watching here? 00:11:19.496 --> 00:11:22.326 That was what I was feeling through that because I was going, does 00:11:22.326 --> 00:11:24.476 this game make any sense at all? 00:11:24.906 --> 00:11:27.606 And I'm not sure it did, but I enjoyed it anyway. 00:11:28.079 --> 00:11:31.139 Rob: You've gotta finish the drink and put it back in its slot so 00:11:31.139 --> 00:11:33.099 the protective shield comes up. 00:11:33.436 --> 00:11:34.066 Kevin: That's right. 00:11:34.146 --> 00:11:38.156 And, and so ultimately it is a drinking game to the death, but what 00:11:38.156 --> 00:11:41.786 kills you is the bug that you don't protect your hand from in time. 00:11:42.489 --> 00:11:48.049 Rob: And how, yeah, and how was it for you to see this iconic species in the Star 00:11:48.049 --> 00:11:52.349 Trek universe that sort of appeared early on in a little bit, but then disappeared 00:11:52.349 --> 00:11:53.839 and has only been brought back in. 00:11:54.019 --> 00:11:58.449 Like the Lower Decks crew have really leaned into showing a lot of Orion 00:11:58.459 --> 00:12:03.389 stuff, like we didn't get any, we didn't get any Orions in Deep Space Nine or 00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:06.609 Voyager or Next Gen, I don't think. 00:12:06.629 --> 00:12:10.009 They've definitely, and of course they were brought back in Enterprise. 00:12:10.231 --> 00:12:10.621 Kevin: Yeah, 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:12.699 Rob: But yeah, how was that, 00:12:12.699 --> 00:12:14.049 Kevin: I agree with Boimler. 00:12:14.079 --> 00:12:16.139 It was a treat not to be missed. 00:12:16.719 --> 00:12:20.839 And as they were like taking the shuttle down and we saw the planet laid out below 00:12:21.169 --> 00:12:26.059 and there was some score going on at that point that felt to me like an Orion motif 00:12:26.099 --> 00:12:33.079 coming in and I thought wow it's been a while since I've felt a new race, a new 00:12:33.079 --> 00:12:37.679 civilization come alive in Star Trek and get some real world building around it. 00:12:37.689 --> 00:12:39.029 So yeah, it was a lot of fun. 00:12:39.626 --> 00:12:42.691 Rob: and for that to happen in an animated, uh, series shows a lot of 00:12:42.761 --> 00:12:45.111 belief in Lower Decks, which is great. 00:12:45.121 --> 00:12:48.951 It's no longer what it started out to be, going, oh, come on, it's the 00:12:48.951 --> 00:12:52.991 hokey animated thing with a bit of, that meta humor, to going, yeah, they 00:12:52.991 --> 00:12:57.711 do that, but they're also, fiercely dedicated to their Star Trek lore. 00:12:58.154 --> 00:12:58.464 Kevin: Yeah. 00:12:58.494 --> 00:13:01.754 I still need to go back and decipher all of the Orion script. 00:13:01.784 --> 00:13:07.424 There were several like conspicuous signs and the Mariner gave us a bit of a decoder 00:13:07.504 --> 00:13:13.274 key by naming the bar and the sign was written in Orion, but she said the bar 00:13:13.274 --> 00:13:15.184 is slit throats or something like that. 00:13:15.194 --> 00:13:17.564 And that gives you a whole bunch of letters to go on. 00:13:17.834 --> 00:13:21.899 I think from there we can decode what the pedestal that they're carried 00:13:21.899 --> 00:13:25.199 around on says, and yeah, I can't wait to pull that stuff apart and 00:13:25.199 --> 00:13:26.879 see what laughs are hiding for us. 00:13:27.446 --> 00:13:29.776 Rob: I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you translate. 00:13:30.779 --> 00:13:35.199 Kevin: But we've got a topic to drill into, and it seemed pretty obvious to 00:13:35.199 --> 00:13:39.849 us that uh, we should be talking about weddings and wedding traditions in Star 00:13:39.856 --> 00:13:40.876 Rob: Most definitely. 00:13:40.926 --> 00:13:42.146 Most definitely. 00:13:42.176 --> 00:13:43.106 Why not? 00:13:43.176 --> 00:13:47.976 Let's let's embrace all things matrimonial in the world of the Trek. 00:13:48.429 --> 00:13:52.019 Kevin: I have picked a little itty bitty scene in Next Generation. 00:13:52.019 --> 00:13:52.689 What have you got? 00:13:53.306 --> 00:13:57.886 Rob: I've got an entire episode from the greatest Star Trek TV show of all time. 00:13:57.896 --> 00:13:58.596 Who would have thought? 00:14:00.189 --> 00:14:03.739 Kevin: Alright, so we'll start at TNG before we go to DS9. 00:14:04.016 --> 00:14:04.546 Rob: Yes. 00:14:05.099 --> 00:14:07.989 Kevin: As I was watching this I was thinking, Oh, it would be interesting 00:14:07.989 --> 00:14:11.429 to talk about all the different wedding traditions in different 00:14:11.459 --> 00:14:14.169 alien cultures, or Star Trek. 00:14:14.619 --> 00:14:18.349 But when I started looking, the first one I found was this sweet 00:14:18.349 --> 00:14:22.269 little scene between Data and Worf in Data's Day, which is The Next 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:24.729 Generation Season 4, Episode 11. 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:29.689 In this episode, Miles O'Brien and Keiko are getting married. 00:14:29.699 --> 00:14:32.489 So yeah, this has a DS9 link for you, Rob. 00:14:33.389 --> 00:14:34.699 This is when they get married. 00:14:34.719 --> 00:14:38.649 And of course Data is playing the role of father of the bride. 00:14:40.579 --> 00:14:43.669 And learning a lot, learning a lot about humanity in the process. 00:14:43.669 --> 00:14:46.209 And one of the things he has to do is buy a wedding gift. 00:14:46.449 --> 00:14:47.449 He goes into... 00:14:47.629 --> 00:14:53.599 this gift shop set that we've never seen before or again in Next Gen, but it's kind 00:14:53.599 --> 00:14:58.969 of a room with replicator pedestals in the middle of it, and Worf's already there 00:14:58.979 --> 00:15:05.319 shopping for a gift, so they trade banter, and what they talk about is how strange, 00:15:06.029 --> 00:15:09.274 or unusual human wedding ceremonies are. 00:15:09.284 --> 00:15:13.384 So this Is a treat of seeing humanity have the, mirror turned 00:15:13.384 --> 00:15:15.184 on itself from the outside. 00:15:15.624 --> 00:15:18.994 Data asks if he can get any advice for picking a wedding gift 00:15:18.994 --> 00:15:20.664 and Worf says, Oh, of course. 00:15:20.694 --> 00:15:23.014 I have attended human weddings before. 00:15:23.014 --> 00:15:27.514 And he's, the tone of voice is like this strange thing called human weddings. 00:15:27.524 --> 00:15:28.944 Don't worry, I'll guide you through it. 00:15:29.414 --> 00:15:35.354 They go through the catalog and they stop on a pair of crystal glasses. 00:15:35.824 --> 00:15:39.624 And Data says this is a traditional wedding gift? 00:15:39.694 --> 00:15:46.464 Worf says, Yes, my adoptive parents often give these… things at family weddings. 00:15:46.724 --> 00:15:48.384 A human custom. 00:15:51.264 --> 00:15:55.554 And Data asks Worf if he's ever participated as a member 00:15:55.554 --> 00:15:59.454 of the bridal party, and Worf goes, No, oh god, are you crazy? 00:16:00.844 --> 00:16:06.524 He says, It's an honor perhaps, but human bonding rituals often involve a great 00:16:06.524 --> 00:16:11.884 deal of talking and dancing and crying. 00:16:12.714 --> 00:16:13.744 It's so good. 00:16:13.784 --> 00:16:17.914 I watched this scene twice because there's a lot of moments of them 00:16:17.914 --> 00:16:22.004 like just quite in silence, taking a beat and staring at each other. 00:16:22.004 --> 00:16:23.124 It's quite a funny scene. 00:16:23.714 --> 00:16:26.344 Um, so I recommend it highly. 00:16:26.344 --> 00:16:30.724 And it was a reminder to me that not to take human wedding 00:16:30.724 --> 00:16:33.314 ceremonies as a normal baseline. 00:16:33.329 --> 00:16:35.959 From the outside, they might be just as weird as anything 00:16:35.959 --> 00:16:36.959 else we might talk about. 00:16:37.686 --> 00:16:39.406 Rob: Excellent, excellent stuff. 00:16:40.126 --> 00:16:45.516 I of course went to um, I would go as to say one of the most iconic weddings. 00:16:45.516 --> 00:16:47.876 Kevin: Is this you Are Cordially Invited? 00:16:48.328 --> 00:16:49.628 Rob: You, Mr. 00:16:49.628 --> 00:16:54.458 Kevin Yank, are cordially invited to my bringing up of You Are 00:16:54.458 --> 00:16:58.738 Cordially Invited from Star Trek Deep Space Nine Season 6 Episode 7. 00:16:58.738 --> 00:17:00.178 That's right, Season 6. 00:17:00.188 --> 00:17:02.368 We are firing on all cylinders. 00:17:02.368 --> 00:17:05.248 This is Deep Space Nine at its friggin best. 00:17:05.516 --> 00:17:07.046 Kevin: When we were still happy. 00:17:07.066 --> 00:17:09.166 When we could still have nice things, Rob. 00:17:09.473 --> 00:17:13.303 Rob: We could still have nice things before, everything went to crap. 00:17:13.393 --> 00:17:18.273 Yep, Season 6, Episode 7 early on at the start of Season 7, they've just 00:17:18.313 --> 00:17:20.793 gained back control of Deep Space Nine. 00:17:21.043 --> 00:17:26.548 Sisko is positively giddy, schoolboy giddy, walking around, going up to Kira, 00:17:26.568 --> 00:17:29.698 going, it's so happy and I'm so nice, it's so good to see you, and she goes, it's 00:17:29.698 --> 00:17:33.118 so good to see you, so much better saying hello to you every morning as opposed 00:17:33.118 --> 00:17:35.288 to Gul Dukat, it's so happy to be here. 00:17:35.658 --> 00:17:38.508 He's positively giddy, it's great seeing Sisko like that. 00:17:38.898 --> 00:17:43.388 And Martok has been given a position of high authority, which he, as 00:17:43.388 --> 00:17:47.238 he says beautifully, I do not like all the excessive paperwork. 00:17:47.238 --> 00:17:47.818 Heh. 00:17:49.333 --> 00:17:54.873 And so we go down to see Worf and Jadzia hanging out with Alexander, who has 00:17:54.913 --> 00:17:58.923 become a bit of a good luck charm within his ship with the Klingons, because 00:17:58.953 --> 00:18:02.423 any stuff up he does means that they survive, so he's a good luck charm. 00:18:02.683 --> 00:18:07.983 And he's ingrained himself within the The Klingon ships that he's working 00:18:07.983 --> 00:18:11.453 within, which he's been finding hard to do over the last however many years 00:18:11.453 --> 00:18:13.043 he's been alive, poor old Alexander. 00:18:13.383 --> 00:18:15.391 Kevin: Great, great to see a bit of Alexander, too. 00:18:15.391 --> 00:18:17.321 Not enough of Alexander in the canon. 00:18:17.683 --> 00:18:19.263 Rob: And he's very good in this episode. 00:18:19.263 --> 00:18:20.503 It's beautiful to see him here. 00:18:20.543 --> 00:18:24.263 And Jadzia just off the top of her head goes we should get married now. 00:18:24.303 --> 00:18:27.063 This will probably be the last time you'll see Alexander in a long time. 00:18:27.233 --> 00:18:28.693 I know the war's on and stuff like that. 00:18:28.693 --> 00:18:30.253 I know we had plans but let's do it now. 00:18:30.253 --> 00:18:31.093 He is here. 00:18:31.543 --> 00:18:34.828 And so they throw together a wedding in less than a week. 00:18:35.068 --> 00:18:39.218 Quark, obviously takes on the role of running it all from his bar. 00:18:39.608 --> 00:18:42.688 And the process begins, but then the drama begins as well. 00:18:42.748 --> 00:18:44.668 Worf wants it done a particular way. 00:18:44.688 --> 00:18:49.478 Jadzia has to gain her approval, because she is an outsider within the house of 00:18:49.488 --> 00:18:53.358 Martok, from Martok's very austere wife. 00:18:54.008 --> 00:18:55.088 Kevin: Sirella. 00:18:55.338 --> 00:18:55.878 Rob: Yes. 00:18:55.918 --> 00:18:57.838 And the process carries on that way. 00:18:57.838 --> 00:19:03.698 We have a great inside look into the the traditions of the Klingon people for 00:19:03.728 --> 00:19:08.298 their processes that we call a buck's night, their process, and there's a great 00:19:08.298 --> 00:19:13.673 moment where they use the holosuites, obviously, so it's Worf, Martok, Sisko, 00:19:13.933 --> 00:19:18.813 O'Brien, Bashir, and Alexander go off to do this, this rite of passage 00:19:18.813 --> 00:19:20.753 to lead on into the, to the wedding. 00:19:20.973 --> 00:19:28.503 And, as Jake's talking to Quark about it, Quark goes, It's a Klingon bachelor party. 00:19:28.868 --> 00:19:30.188 Use your imagination. 00:19:30.768 --> 00:19:33.578 But it is the exact opposite of what everyone expects. 00:19:33.578 --> 00:19:38.468 Instead of drinking and partying and beating each other up, it's a 00:19:38.468 --> 00:19:44.598 solemn, beautiful, operatic stages of breaking everything down and putting 00:19:44.598 --> 00:19:46.888 yourself through pain and blood. 00:19:47.028 --> 00:19:51.728 And beautiful singing um, Klingon opera in two part harmony. 00:19:52.078 --> 00:19:58.128 And while Jadzia is doing what Jadzia does, she has dancing islanders with 00:19:58.128 --> 00:20:04.228 flaming poles, and flirting, and all this type of stuff, and tension of whether 00:20:04.438 --> 00:20:07.748 Jadzia is worthy enough, and a lot of things about you're not a Klingon, so 00:20:07.748 --> 00:20:12.488 you'll never be accepted and it's all wrapped up to have an extended wedding 00:20:12.488 --> 00:20:18.258 ceremony with beautiful passages about, love defying the gods and being more 00:20:18.258 --> 00:20:20.258 powerful than the gods themselves. 00:20:20.588 --> 00:20:23.688 It's, yeah, it's a beautiful episode to, sorta like, invert what you 00:20:23.688 --> 00:20:27.718 believe a Klingon wedding would be and there's some wonderful stuff in there. 00:20:28.218 --> 00:20:30.958 And it's Terry Farrell at her absolute best. 00:20:30.958 --> 00:20:34.928 This is like, watching it again, you know that by the end of this season 00:20:34.938 --> 00:20:38.558 she's gone and it's a crying shame because she should have been able 00:20:38.558 --> 00:20:40.613 to stay with the show to the end. 00:20:40.863 --> 00:20:45.223 And she's just, after her initial tension of how she starts in this 00:20:45.223 --> 00:20:49.753 character in season one and two, this is Jadzia firing on all cylinders. 00:20:49.753 --> 00:20:53.543 She in, she has the Curzon elements there. 00:20:53.543 --> 00:20:54.843 She's got the young, vibrant elements. 00:20:54.843 --> 00:20:59.853 Her, she's got this great scene with Sisko right at the end where they flip 00:20:59.913 --> 00:21:05.953 back and forth where he's talking to her like a young woman in her 20s, but then 00:21:06.243 --> 00:21:12.023 the next sentence he's talking to her like he's like a 60, 70 year old man that 00:21:12.033 --> 00:21:13.603 they've known each other for decades. 00:21:13.953 --> 00:21:16.163 And they're just flipping back and forth. 00:21:16.183 --> 00:21:18.263 It's masterful writing by Ronald D. 00:21:18.263 --> 00:21:23.383 Moore and it's a great insight into more traditions about Klingons. 00:21:23.383 --> 00:21:26.503 And we've talked about it before, you know, Worf became like the... 00:21:26.828 --> 00:21:29.078 Whenever it was a Worf centric episode, it's let's give it a 00:21:29.078 --> 00:21:31.628 little bit more about the Klingons as opposed to him as a character. 00:21:32.148 --> 00:21:36.658 But, it just shows how beautiful Michael Dorn is with his characterization of 00:21:36.678 --> 00:21:44.518 Worf and just how, deeply poetic and soft and thoughtful he is as a character. 00:21:44.628 --> 00:21:45.428 And how... 00:21:45.638 --> 00:21:48.668 He's lived on the outside for so long and he takes these traditions 00:21:48.668 --> 00:21:52.508 so seriously because he was never connected to it when he was young. 00:21:52.508 --> 00:21:54.681 And yeah, just beautiful stuff in there. 00:21:54.788 --> 00:21:59.288 Kevin: You can see why he sneered with such disdain at those crystal 00:21:59.288 --> 00:22:02.908 goblets, when he knows what a real wedding tradition looks like. 00:22:03.395 --> 00:22:04.265 Rob: Exactly. 00:22:04.265 --> 00:22:04.715 Exactly. 00:22:04.715 --> 00:22:06.875 And there's even a scene at the start where he is drinking blood wine. 00:22:06.925 --> 00:22:06.926 No. 00:22:07.165 --> 00:22:07.315 Yeah. 00:22:07.375 --> 00:22:11.655 He has blood wine with his son, and his, uh fiancé, so no prune juice there. 00:22:11.914 --> 00:22:17.424 Kevin: I think uh, there's a, there's a episode or two in Voyager where B'Elanna 00:22:17.424 --> 00:22:21.394 Torres and Tom Paris are planning their wedding, and there's mentions 00:22:21.394 --> 00:22:25.634 of how Klingon is the wedding ceremony going to be and B'Elanna's like, don't 00:22:25.634 --> 00:22:27.614 worry, I'll spare you the pain sticks. 00:22:27.914 --> 00:22:32.844 And here we get to see in, in, a lot more grand detail exactly 00:22:32.844 --> 00:22:34.374 what she was referring to there. 00:22:34.922 --> 00:22:38.042 Rob: And look, the painsticks are just like big ear buds, really. 00:22:38.082 --> 00:22:42.052 They, they would not be, they would not be unwelcome on the set of American 00:22:42.052 --> 00:22:43.652 Gladiators or something like that. 00:22:43.712 --> 00:22:47.652 And it's a great moment at the end where just Miles and and Bashir. 00:22:48.062 --> 00:22:49.282 They're going, do we do it now? 00:22:49.532 --> 00:22:50.902 And Martok goes, Hold. 00:22:51.112 --> 00:22:51.912 Do we do now? 00:22:52.102 --> 00:22:54.122 And the final shot is fading to black and you hear them, YAAAAH! 00:22:56.062 --> 00:22:57.482 Whacking poor old Worf. 00:22:57.533 --> 00:22:58.619 Kevin: Yeah, it's really good. 00:22:59.374 --> 00:23:04.024 Both, both Worf and Jadzia, I think, were high difficulty characters, 00:23:04.034 --> 00:23:07.814 not just for the actor, but for the writers to what it was. 00:23:07.844 --> 00:23:12.194 And yeah, you're right, this is perhaps the culmination of both of those 00:23:12.294 --> 00:23:16.784 difficulty curves of, yes, it was hard to get started, but the rewards 00:23:16.794 --> 00:23:20.484 for getting to the place they were going with both those characters is 00:23:20.494 --> 00:23:22.644 on full display here in this episode. 00:23:23.297 --> 00:23:26.847 Rob: And you can really see that they didn't expect it as writers, 00:23:26.847 --> 00:23:30.447 they didn't expect it as actors, just how the two of them clicked, 00:23:30.717 --> 00:23:31.977 Terry Farrell and Michael Dorn. 00:23:31.987 --> 00:23:35.487 You just go, this is magic, absolute magic. 00:23:35.919 --> 00:23:40.019 Kevin: It's interesting to me comparing to, we had the we had the engagement 00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:47.519 ceremony earlier this season with Spock in Strange New Worlds, um, where he as a 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:55.029 human temporarily pretending to be half Vulcan, his, like he runs this gauntlet 00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:59.809 of challenges to prove is he Vulcan enough, and it's quite similar to this 00:23:59.809 --> 00:24:06.434 episode where Dax is has to run this gauntlet of ceremonies to prove that 00:24:06.434 --> 00:24:09.204 she is Klingon enough to marry Worf. 00:24:09.584 --> 00:24:13.324 It's a recurring theme of that purity test before you marry 00:24:13.324 --> 00:24:15.044 someone outside your species. 00:24:15.354 --> 00:24:17.514 It's an interesting sci fi thing. 00:24:17.962 --> 00:24:23.782 Rob: And all the levels of how physically strong you are, how your endurance is, 00:24:23.802 --> 00:24:26.242 and also your knowledge of the family. 00:24:26.722 --> 00:24:30.032 And when Jadzia starts biting back, going, well actually, this is the true 00:24:30.032 --> 00:24:33.822 facts, oh, but you want me to just keep up the myth, the family myth, 00:24:33.852 --> 00:24:35.332 as opposed to what the reality is? 00:24:35.332 --> 00:24:36.222 Oh, okay, we'll do that. 00:24:36.372 --> 00:24:38.472 You go, ho ho ho! 00:24:38.652 --> 00:24:39.132 Classic. 00:24:39.174 --> 00:24:44.579 Kevin: Like it's a pretty obvious allegory to marrying across cultures, 00:24:44.609 --> 00:24:52.763 across races you know, in human society, of are you X enough to join our family? 00:24:52.803 --> 00:24:53.903 Are you Jewish enough? 00:24:53.903 --> 00:24:54.803 Are you Greek enough? 00:24:54.803 --> 00:24:59.253 Are you, you know, pick your, pick your social group that has its own 00:24:59.253 --> 00:25:03.533 traditions and its own expectations of people who join a family. 00:25:03.763 --> 00:25:10.413 And it's, just as it is in our modern human society, that can be a test for 00:25:10.413 --> 00:25:16.243 a relationship that is taking that step into a permanent form, as it were, and 00:25:16.243 --> 00:25:23.153 getting to explore that in maybe a a safer sci fi way through Star Trek and going, 00:25:24.073 --> 00:25:29.629 Jadzia, can you recite the operatic verses sufficiently to join this Klingon house? 00:25:29.849 --> 00:25:31.549 It's a fun way to explore that stuff. 00:25:32.037 --> 00:25:35.317 Rob: And the history of my 28th great grandmother or something like that. 00:25:35.697 --> 00:25:40.030 Um, Yeah, it would have been good to have a bit more Trill tradition, 00:25:40.030 --> 00:25:43.810 like what, it's very much Jadzia's, yeah, Jadzia is very much a case of, 00:25:43.840 --> 00:25:45.920 I just want to get married, I don't care about tradition or anything 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:47.160 like that, let's just get this done. 00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:50.710 Kevin: Maybe that in itself is meant to say something about Trill society, 00:25:50.710 --> 00:25:56.050 but we do see the Trill in Discovery, and they have some stuff going on. 00:25:56.514 --> 00:25:59.294 Rob: That's one of the few moments that I really liked in Discovery as well, 00:25:59.314 --> 00:26:03.444 the, that episode of the Trill with all the past lives and stuff like that, 00:26:03.444 --> 00:26:07.004 and there's, touched on it a bit within some of the previous episodes of Deep 00:26:07.004 --> 00:26:12.834 Space Nine, what with former lovers or wives or husbands of Jadzia from their 00:26:12.834 --> 00:26:16.324 past lives coming in connection with each other, but yeah, it's very much 00:26:16.324 --> 00:26:19.674 her… celebrations are just generic. 00:26:19.724 --> 00:26:24.204 They have a Pacific Islander crew member who gets leave to come and 00:26:24.204 --> 00:26:27.864 celebrate with flaming torches, which is amazing and incredible, but 00:26:28.093 --> 00:26:31.343 Kevin: It's like you said, I think her culture is whatever's sexy. 00:26:33.101 --> 00:26:36.801 Rob: And he's a very oiled up Islander and he is very sexy. 00:26:36.811 --> 00:26:37.781 And she does the flirt. 00:26:38.121 --> 00:26:39.861 And he falls asleep on Morn. 00:26:39.871 --> 00:26:40.971 So that's a good night for him. 00:26:42.593 --> 00:26:45.123 Kevin: Ah it was fun to revisit these weddings with you. 00:26:45.123 --> 00:26:46.943 There are others in Star Trek history, 00:26:46.993 --> 00:26:50.143 Rob: Yes, we didn't get to explore really the Betazoid wedding, which 00:26:50.143 --> 00:26:51.643 is apparently everyone's nude. 00:26:51.906 --> 00:26:52.556 Kevin: Yes! 00:26:52.606 --> 00:26:57.986 Yeah, and, yeah, very prominent uh, early memory of TNG there of Majel Barrett 00:26:57.996 --> 00:27:02.176 insisting that everyone needs to be naked and I think when I first saw that 00:27:02.216 --> 00:27:06.396 as a fan, I was not across the fact that she was Gene Roddenberry's wife. 00:27:06.406 --> 00:27:08.696 That, that was not something that I knew. 00:27:08.801 --> 00:27:11.051 And yeah, just in hindsight, it's all strange. 00:27:11.071 --> 00:27:12.271 I made a new TV show. 00:27:12.271 --> 00:27:14.491 Do you want to get naked in the first season, honey? 00:27:15.648 --> 00:27:19.108 Rob: Look she was bang up for anything in that show and god bless her. 00:27:19.711 --> 00:27:20.031 Kevin: Yeah. 00:27:20.271 --> 00:27:22.261 It was a fun, fun episode. 00:27:22.261 --> 00:27:23.051 Absolutely. 00:27:23.351 --> 00:27:28.421 Early, early days of Troi and Lwaxana uh, going head to head 00:27:28.431 --> 00:27:33.051 about, mum you embarrass me because you make everything so awkward. 00:27:33.311 --> 00:27:35.771 Rob: So yes, we we, there's so many wedding traditions 00:27:35.841 --> 00:27:37.311 out there within Star Trek. 00:27:37.311 --> 00:27:40.271 But we did want to focus on a little bit of Klingon. 00:27:40.281 --> 00:27:42.021 A little bit of human reflection. 00:27:42.291 --> 00:27:43.741 And a little bit of Orion. 00:27:43.761 --> 00:27:46.261 Not a bad way to explore Star Trek. 00:27:46.739 --> 00:27:47.749 Kevin: Thank you, Lower Decks. 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.914 I love the journeys you're sending us on. 00:27:50.914 --> 00:27:52.724 Every new episode is a surprise. 00:27:53.311 --> 00:27:55.761 Rob: It's going from strength to strength, four seasons down. 00:27:55.811 --> 00:27:59.911 Yeah, will they go beyond the the iconic seven seasons? 00:27:59.911 --> 00:28:00.671 We shall see. 00:28:01.004 --> 00:28:02.464 Kevin: Alright until next week, Rob. 00:28:03.441 --> 00:28:05.451 Rob: Until next week, you know what we're gonna do. 00:28:05.511 --> 00:28:06.461 We're gonna see each other, 00:28:06.954 --> 00:28:07.894 Kevin: around the galaxy. 00:28:09.311 --> 00:28:09.431 Rob: Hehehehehehe.