Colin Casey (00:00:07):
Hi, welcome to Sober Banter.

Colin Casey (00:00:09):
I'm Colin.

Colin Casey (00:00:10):
I'm Rachel.

Colin Casey (00:00:11):
And today we have...

Paul Summers Jr. (00:00:13):
Paul Summers Jr.

Rachel Casey (00:00:14):
There you go.

Rachel Casey (00:00:16):
No, you're good.

Rachel Casey (00:00:17):
I just, you know, we don't really edit a lot of the podcast.

Rachel Casey (00:00:20):
And we were just talking before saying welcome to Sober Banter.

Rachel Casey (00:00:23):
And I'm like, oh, this is good stuff.

Rachel Casey (00:00:25):
I want it on the show.

Colin Casey (00:00:26):
We got started before the show.

Colin Casey (00:00:28):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:00:29):
So let's go ahead and get right into it.

Rachel Casey (00:00:31):
You were just saying we're talking about AA.

Colin Casey (00:00:34):
And would Bill go on a podcast?

Rachel Casey (00:00:36):
Let's say right now we do not represent AA.

Rachel Casey (00:00:39):
we both are members, but we, we are only sharing our experience are what we've gone through.

Rachel Casey (00:00:46):
And, you know, but we try to respect traditions and the, you know, steps saved my life.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:00:52):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:00:52):
Same here.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:00:54):
And what I was going to add to that is that, and I will add now, how's that?

Rachel Casey (00:00:57):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:00:59):
This is it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:00):
Is that I got clean and sober through N.A.,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:05):
And worked the steps.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:07):
I had a sponsor.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:08):
I did all the meetings, meetings, meetings.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:12):
On your podcast, you said you did way more than 90 and 90.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:15):
I was not able to do that because by the time 90 had come, I was already back in my daughter's life.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:25):
And so I was not able to do that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:28):
So fast forward last year, so 16 years of sobriety, I was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:35):
man,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:36):
I really want to know like where NA got everything from my stepdaughter is dating a

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:42):
guy in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:43):
My biological daughter is married to a guy in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:46):
Uh, and yeah, you know, and it's like, and he's, he's an AA guy.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:51):
And, uh, and I was like, Hey, will you sponsor me?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:56):
And I just thought this is going to help him.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:59):
It's going to help me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:01:59):
And I want to learn about AA.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:01):
And so I'm, you know, I'm reading, Oh, I wish I had it here.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:04):
I don't know why I wish I had it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:05):
It's in my living room.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:06):
But, you know, the big book, right?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:10):
Oh, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:11):
And I'm just going, oh, my God, like this guy, Bill W. He worked.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:21):
I don't even have a word incredulously.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:23):
I'll try to act like an author for a moment to get the word out like he was nonstop.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:29):
I just like I admire his passion.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:32):
And his ability to word is obviously like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:34):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:35):
word things,

Rachel Casey (00:02:36):
even though it's because he was actually a stockbroker.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:39):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:02:39):
So he actually really wasn't an author.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:42):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:42):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:43):
But he knew how to motivate people.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:45):
And he would, of course he would be on a podcast is my thought.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:48):
Cause I heard you say that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:49):
I think your last podcast you guys did, you were, I think you had pondered that question and yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:55):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:02:56):
So yeah, I agree with you.

Rachel Casey (00:02:58):
I mean, Bill's story, um,

Rachel Casey (00:03:01):
I still just like,

Rachel Casey (00:03:02):
I love the history of AA and I have it in my big book too,

Rachel Casey (00:03:08):
even outlined in his story.

Rachel Casey (00:03:10):
He has all 12 steps of how he worked it.

Rachel Casey (00:03:14):
And I use that as a reference.

Rachel Casey (00:03:16):
When someone's wanting to talk about the steps, I always go to Bill's story.

Rachel Casey (00:03:21):
And I didn't align with it at first.

Rachel Casey (00:03:23):
I was like, okay, so he's a stockbroker.

Rachel Casey (00:03:26):
My favorite words, I have arrived.

Rachel Casey (00:03:30):
And that is how I felt when I first started drinking and I was in the high-end service.

Rachel Casey (00:03:35):
I was like, I have arrived.

Rachel Casey (00:03:39):
This is before the stock market crash.

Rachel Casey (00:03:41):
He is living large.

Rachel Casey (00:03:42):
He's going to dinners.

Rachel Casey (00:03:43):
He's going to parties.

Rachel Casey (00:03:44):
And this is before the alcoholism really...

Rachel Casey (00:03:49):
kicks in for him he kind of talks about the build um and then what happens you know

Rachel Casey (00:03:55):
lose the money still going to the bar still wanting that lifestyle but can't get it

Rachel Casey (00:04:01):
and you know he's pretty much giving

Rachel Casey (00:04:04):
this is where he starts going to the treatment centers.

Rachel Casey (00:04:07):
And, um, that would be where Dr. Silkworth who was like, you're incurable.

Colin Casey (00:04:13):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:04:14):
Um, and it wasn't until his friend, Abby Thatcher came over and said, I, um,

Rachel Casey (00:04:21):
got sober and he didn't think he was going to stay sober.

Rachel Casey (00:04:24):
And anyways,

Rachel Casey (00:04:25):
I just,

Rachel Casey (00:04:26):
the carrying the message to him,

Rachel Casey (00:04:28):
it really worked because he knew Abby before sobriety.

Rachel Casey (00:04:34):
And he's like, if that guy can get clean and be happy, there's gotta be a shot for me.

Rachel Casey (00:04:40):
And that's why so many people know us and they still are.

Rachel Casey (00:04:44):
I mean, when I first got sober, people said,

Rachel Casey (00:04:48):
You'll fall off eventually.

Rachel Casey (00:04:49):
You won't last.

Rachel Casey (00:04:50):
You're the type of drinker that they couldn't ever see me not drinking long term.

Rachel Casey (00:04:57):
And so I actually, that's why I share a lot.

Rachel Casey (00:04:59):
People are not happy all the time when you get sober.

Rachel Casey (00:05:02):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:03):
You know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:03):
rooting for well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:04):
at the same time,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:05):
having that that presumption,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:07):
I'm going to ain't going to last.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:09):
He's going to go back to be in Polly.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:11):
You know, that's my family.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:12):
You know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:13):
still to this day,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:14):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:15):
someday he's going to be that jerk,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:16):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:17):
guy that shows up late,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:18):
only thinks about himself.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:20):
you know, does only for him.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:22):
And, and it's so that's painful for me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:24):
Like I,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:24):
I've,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:25):
I had to actually distance myself from a lot of my family because like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:28):
they still put me in that,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:30):
in that,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:30):
uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:30):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:31):
that bar,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:31):
they still categorize me that way.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:33):
And,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:34):
And that's,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:35):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:36):
eventually I had to say,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:37):
well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:37):
I can either like spend time with them and be in pain or be away from them and be

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:42):
in pain.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:43):
One is protecting me and the other is like walking into sabotage.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:46):
So I'm not going to sabotage myself.

Rachel Casey (00:05:48):
I think our first year we had to build.

Rachel Casey (00:05:51):
We had a lot of boundaries.

Rachel Casey (00:05:52):
We had a lot because.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:05:54):
Yeah, that's good.

Rachel Casey (00:05:55):
Only my mom is sober.

Rachel Casey (00:05:57):
And she's the one who sent us to go to AA when I was...

Rachel Casey (00:06:02):
She waited for the perfect opportunity to say,

Rachel Casey (00:06:04):
are you willing to do anything?

Rachel Casey (00:06:06):
And I said, yes.

Rachel Casey (00:06:07):
Because I wanted to take my own life.

Rachel Casey (00:06:09):
I said, I'd only called her...

Rachel Casey (00:06:11):
Same because she's sober and it was nighttime and I wanted to ensure Evan would be OK.

Rachel Casey (00:06:17):
And I was like, I don't want to be here anymore.

Rachel Casey (00:06:19):
I'm done.

Rachel Casey (00:06:20):
I vividly remember being in the in our hallway in our house and I just had like a

Rachel Casey (00:06:27):
moment of clarity of I can't I can't live like this anymore.

Rachel Casey (00:06:31):
And I couldn't change anything.

Rachel Casey (00:06:32):
I tried so many times to.

Rachel Casey (00:06:35):
moderate I mean we were at each other's throats by the end I was also thinking

Colin Casey (00:06:40):
another thing that was kind of difficult it doesn't happen so much anymore but my

Colin Casey (00:06:45):
mom's partner has got kind of early dementia so that first year she was always

Colin Casey (00:06:50):
asking oh do you want a beer or do you want a wine forgetting that we were sober

Colin Casey (00:06:57):
now she stopped asking so I think it's that one's sunken in but yeah

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:03):
My uncle.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:04):
So my uncle, he was the person that I called his sober date.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:10):
He was an AA guy.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:13):
April 1st, 1970.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:15):
He died sober.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:15):
I mean, he was in his late 80s.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:18):
So he lived like he was the guy that we all admired.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:22):
He wasn't the guy we admired when he was drinking, you know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:25):
So, I mean, I still remember him being drunk at Christmas and then all these years sober.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:30):
And he was the guy I called, you know, because same thing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:32):
I was worried about my daughter.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:33):
My daughter was three at the time.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:36):
And and and I just, you know, hey, I don't know what to do.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:41):
And he's like, are you sick and tired of being sick and tired?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:43):
And I said, yeah, you know, you know, and and and just like how does somebody know what's going on?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:07:50):
Say that again.

Rachel Casey (00:07:52):
you can't like if my mom would have pushed it you know like you need to go you need

Rachel Casey (00:07:57):
to go she waited till are you tired are you willing to do anything and when I said

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:02):
yes she said cool go to a meeting and just one of the blessings of recovery was I

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:10):
think I had about four years and at this point I'm a sole custodial father it's

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:16):
just me and my daughter her mom an addict

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:20):
to this day, never strung together enough clean time to really be in our daughter's life.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:25):
Unfortunately for her, she missed that, you know, opportunity to parent.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:30):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:33):
And I took my daughter.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:35):
Well, I was I was I had a van that was falling apart, a minivan, a dad, a soccer dad van.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:42):
And I didn't have the money.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:43):
I didn't have the resources to get something new.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:46):
And that was looking really scary for me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:48):
And my uncle said, hey, how much do you need?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:51):
And I said, I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:08:53):
I see this like PT Cruiser for this isn't a plug for PT Cruisers, by the way.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:00):
there was an article that said it's the least, it's the least, uh, approved car for first dates or so.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:07):
I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:08):
So there was some article anyway,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:09):
but I got a PT cruiser cause it was a five speed and,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:12):
and,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:12):
uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:13):
or four speed.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:14):
And, uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:15):
He he said, well, you know, I'll give you five grand.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:18):
And I said, I can't take that kind of money from you.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:20):
I've got to at least put in my half because that's what the program taught me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:23):
You know, I've got to be self-supporting.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:25):
And he said, oh, whatever you saved, I'll match it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:27):
And I was like, OK, so I got the car.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:29):
And one of the like blessings that I got was I my daughter's first trip that we got

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:34):
finally got to take a vacation.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:37):
They live in the Bay Area.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:38):
I lived in Portland at the time.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:40):
And I got to take him to his home group in the car that he helped me buy.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:44):
And I just said, hey, this is such a blessing to be able to do this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:50):
Your sobriety is kind of what saved my life because he was always that one person

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:54):
in our family that was different because he got it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:57):
He didn't drink anymore.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:09:58):
And he said, I didn't buy this car for you.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:10:03):
Probably the program did.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:10:04):
And it's like...

Paul Summers Jr. (00:10:07):
still humble too.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:10:08):
You know what I mean?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:10:08):
I don't know.

Rachel Casey (00:10:09):
Anyway, that's what you, that's what we do.

Rachel Casey (00:10:12):
And you know, again, that speaks to in working with others.

Rachel Casey (00:10:16):
It's so big that they say like, it's a, it's a program of attraction, not promotion.

Rachel Casey (00:10:24):
We don't sit here and say like,

Rachel Casey (00:10:26):
your life would be so much better if you got sober.

Rachel Casey (00:10:29):
We just do it.

Rachel Casey (00:10:30):
We're just, we just be us.

Rachel Casey (00:10:34):
And we're like, if you want help and you ask for it, we will do anything to help you.

Rachel Casey (00:10:40):
Like we will stop our day.

Rachel Casey (00:10:42):
It's so funny that I've had sponsees that have called and asked for help.

Rachel Casey (00:10:46):
And they said, it's like the quickest phone call return they get.

Rachel Casey (00:10:49):
And I'm like, oh yeah, if someone hears someone else is struggling,

Rachel Casey (00:10:54):
It doesn't matter what we're doing.

Rachel Casey (00:10:55):
Well, I've paused when we were coaching Evan's soccer soccer team once.

Rachel Casey (00:11:02):
And I had someone call.

Rachel Casey (00:11:03):
And I mean, I literally just was like, OK, water break.

Rachel Casey (00:11:06):
And, you know, that goes priority.

Rachel Casey (00:11:09):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:11:10):
But I never thought I'd have this life like I didn't even know I'd want this life

Rachel Casey (00:11:13):
like I would have thought.

Colin Casey (00:11:16):
Well,

Colin Casey (00:11:16):
it's also interesting talking to you because like you said,

Colin Casey (00:11:19):
Evan,

Colin Casey (00:11:19):
our son,

Colin Casey (00:11:20):
we,

Colin Casey (00:11:20):
he was two when we got sober and you just said your daughter was three.

Rachel Casey (00:11:24):
How does she look at the program or how does she, or how did you explain it to her as she was growing up?

Rachel Casey (00:11:29):
If you did.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:31):
Okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:32):
There's a couple of things.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:34):
Can't keep what we have without giving it away was what I just thought of when you were talking.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:38):
She was, she was three and a half.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:41):
And what happened was she,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:44):
her mom disappeared with her and that was like oh my god this is because am i using

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:52):
even though her mom was using too i knew like i had been to calling the suicide

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11:56):
hotline that was who pointed me to because i didn't want it i didn't want to live i

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:01):
was just i didn't have the you know the the guts to kill myself you know yeah

Rachel Casey (00:12:07):
I didn't either.

Rachel Casey (00:12:07):
That's why I kind of like,

Rachel Casey (00:12:10):
I think I played like that was my reach out for help,

Rachel Casey (00:12:13):
but in again,

Rachel Casey (00:12:13):
a stubborn way,

Rachel Casey (00:12:16):
you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:17):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:17):
Cause I didn't get it for a while after that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:19):
You know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:19):
I went back,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:20):
I put together like 60 days and I went back and it's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:23):
Oh my God,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:23):
the same thing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:24):
And we got to where we had gone through all of our finances.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:27):
Now we, we had nothing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:29):
we were basically unemployable and why the state hadn't taken our daughter at that point,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:35):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:36):
was only because we're resourceful,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:39):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:39):
addicts are so resourceful though,

Rachel Casey (00:12:41):
but now it's Friday.

Rachel Casey (00:12:42):
It's so much better.

Rachel Casey (00:12:43):
Like it's a much better resourceful.

Rachel Casey (00:12:44):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:45):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:46):
And so, and that was the impetus for like, I looked at the empty walls, like how many times is this?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:53):
And the one thing that really stuck for me was like, I can't,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:12:58):
let my daughter be raised without a dad, you know, without her daddy.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:01):
You know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:01):
it's like I've just I've known so many women that that is such an like unfixable thing,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:10):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:11):
like and I didn't like God that I can't let me be that guy.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:15):
No way.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:16):
You know, so, you know, I didn't get clean for her because I didn't have her.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:20):
I didn't know where my my then wife had gone with her,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:24):
where her mom,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:24):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:25):
I didn't know where they had been were taken.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:27):
um so i wrote the book so she was three and when when did you start writing the

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:32):
book when did i start writing the book five it was five years ago so at that time

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:36):
she was about 18 17 18 years old right in there and what was the other question

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:44):
about uh what are those meetings so how did she know about the program is that what

Rachel Casey (00:13:48):
you asked yeah

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:49):
She was my sidekick at all the meetings.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:53):
I was that parent who was terrified that somebody wasn't getting their meeting

Paul Summers Jr. (00:13:59):
because my kid was crawling around on the floor because she was still doing that

Paul Summers Jr. (00:14:04):
kind of stuff.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:14:04):
You have the nervous sweating because you're like, oh, please just be quiet just a little bit longer.

Rachel Casey (00:14:10):
It's so funny because everyone else around loves it and they all just smile and

Rachel Casey (00:14:15):
they're so happy that a parent is there like

Paul Summers Jr. (00:14:18):
in a room.

Rachel Casey (00:14:20):
When I bring Evan with me, it is like

Rachel Casey (00:14:23):
Everyone is like excited to see him.

Rachel Casey (00:14:25):
They just smile.

Rachel Casey (00:14:26):
Like,

Rachel Casey (00:14:26):
uh,

Rachel Casey (00:14:26):
I even got a message that when Doug was giving his chip and Evan was giggling at

Rachel Casey (00:14:30):
his iPad,

Rachel Casey (00:14:31):
uh,

Rachel Casey (00:14:32):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:14:32):
Bryce said that was the happiest he'd seen Doug smile,

Rachel Casey (00:14:35):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:14:36):
just watching the chill.

Rachel Casey (00:14:37):
You know, we bring them to birthday night cause he loves cake.

Rachel Casey (00:14:39):
And it's also cool to have him.

Rachel Casey (00:14:41):
I want him to one day give me my chip.

Rachel Casey (00:14:43):
Um,

Rachel Casey (00:14:44):
I don't,

Rachel Casey (00:14:44):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:14:45):
if he'll do it,

Rachel Casey (00:14:46):
um,

Rachel Casey (00:14:46):
my mom gave me mine and that was kind of my spiritual experience.

Rachel Casey (00:14:50):
moment of, and my grandma was there, her mom and her husband who passed away was alcoholic.

Rachel Casey (00:14:57):
He was sober over 20 years and neither of my grandparents who were sober over 20

Rachel Casey (00:15:02):
years got to see me sober.

Rachel Casey (00:15:05):
But I think that that's kind of what pushed it.

Rachel Casey (00:15:07):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:15:08):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:15:08):
So you have so you've really gone NA and I know that NA and AA do have a slight difference.

Rachel Casey (00:15:17):
It's the same basics.

Rachel Casey (00:15:19):
I've been to actually one NA meeting,

Rachel Casey (00:15:23):
but I do argue a little bit in AA because they,

Rachel Casey (00:15:26):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:15:27):
the primary purpose.

Rachel Casey (00:15:28):
We're not supposed to talk about like outside drugs or drugs.

Rachel Casey (00:15:32):
Use like they try to kind of keep it to alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:15:35):
But, you know, drugs are still a part of my story.

Rachel Casey (00:15:38):
While alcohol was my main.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:15:40):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:15:41):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:15:41):
OK.

Rachel Casey (00:15:41):
We couldn't keep up with our drinking without adding in upper stimulants.

Rachel Casey (00:15:48):
I'll say that because I'm going to that's my code.

Rachel Casey (00:15:50):
And I think everyone knows what it is.

Rachel Casey (00:15:52):
And that helps you drink a lot more and it helps you stay awake and not pass out.

Rachel Casey (00:15:58):
It would also contribute to blacking out.

Rachel Casey (00:16:00):
But what made you choose NA over AA?

Rachel Casey (00:16:06):
No particular.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:09):
I think it was because at the, okay, there's a couple reasons.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:14):
I had, I was saying that I was always really nervous.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:18):
And then one night, you know, I shared that with some women.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:22):
Women really helped me because as a solo dad, you know, first of all, there's not a lot of us.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:29):
And second of all, the women know how to do this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:31):
And I knew that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:33):
And I went to women a lot in early recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:35):
Like, how do I do this?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:37):
You know, how do I go talk to the judge about like, we're not getting our child support?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:41):
What do you do?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:42):
You know, things like that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:42):
That was a little further on down the line.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:45):
But when when it came to like bringing my daughter to meetings.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:48):
A woman once said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:50):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:50):
hey,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:51):
like just what you said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:53):
it's better to have that addict alcoholic in the rooms than out there,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:56):
isn't it?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:57):
And I was like, yeah, you know, that's logical.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:16:59):
But I do want to say for anybody listening,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:01):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:01):
if you're like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:03):
well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:03):
I would really like to check out the program,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:05):
but I can't bring my kid or kids with me to it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:08):
Like there was a time where a woman,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:11):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:11):
got in front of everybody and said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:13):
and let me,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:15):
one other thing is there are some parents that go in there and they just let their

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:19):
kids run rampant.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:21):
And God, that sucks for everybody.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:23):
It really does.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:17:24):
Cause it's a distraction.

Rachel Casey (00:17:26):
As long as it's not distracting,

Rachel Casey (00:17:28):
but they usually have a separate room,

Rachel Casey (00:17:30):
like a half measures room or,

Rachel Casey (00:17:32):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:17:33):
when he was two,

Rachel Casey (00:17:34):
we couldn't obviously put him,

Rachel Casey (00:17:35):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:17:37):
in there.

Rachel Casey (00:17:37):
I've watched other people's kids during a meeting.

Rachel Casey (00:17:40):
If I didn't feel like I was having a rough day,

Rachel Casey (00:17:42):
I'll be like,

Rachel Casey (00:17:42):
Hey,

Rachel Casey (00:17:43):
if it's not weird,

Rachel Casey (00:17:44):
I can go in that little room and you can go to the meeting.

Rachel Casey (00:17:48):
Like,

Rachel Casey (00:17:49):
yeah i've held babies during meetings for other people because they needed the

Rachel Casey (00:17:53):
meeting and i'm like i love babies and i was okay that day you know so sometimes

Rachel Casey (00:17:58):
you go to a meeting and you end up being of service and you feel even better yeah

Rachel Casey (00:18:04):
you know it's uh because now you've doing acts of service is how i feel the best in

Paul Summers Jr. (00:18:09):
recovery well you said you said if it's not weird why did you say that

Rachel Casey (00:18:14):
Just offering someone maybe I don't know or if they're new.

Rachel Casey (00:18:17):
Because typically,

Rachel Casey (00:18:19):
if someone's nervous bringing their kid or they're having a harder day,

Rachel Casey (00:18:23):
I might not know them as well.

Rachel Casey (00:18:25):
Or they might be like just they've only seen me one other time.

Rachel Casey (00:18:28):
I'm technically a stranger.

Rachel Casey (00:18:30):
Unless they know me.

Rachel Casey (00:18:32):
The baby one, I knew fairly well.

Rachel Casey (00:18:35):
Yeah, you knew the mom.

Rachel Casey (00:18:37):
Yeah, I knew the mom.

Rachel Casey (00:18:38):
And so that wasn't weird.

Rachel Casey (00:18:39):
But if I've offered...

Rachel Casey (00:18:41):
to watch someone's kid and they're like, I've only this is my first meeting or.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:18:45):
Oh yeah, definitely.

Rachel Casey (00:18:46):
Because like I said, I used to go to a lot of them.

Rachel Casey (00:18:49):
So yeah, I did learn though that with Evan,

Rachel Casey (00:18:55):
If I was anxious about him being anxious, he usually became anxious.

Rachel Casey (00:19:02):
I would breathe in,

Rachel Casey (00:19:03):
let go,

Rachel Casey (00:19:04):
let God,

Rachel Casey (00:19:05):
and I would say a small prayer before bringing him in a meeting and say,

Rachel Casey (00:19:09):
let me hear what I need to hear.

Rachel Casey (00:19:11):
Evan do what he needs to do.

Rachel Casey (00:19:14):
And it usually worked out.

Rachel Casey (00:19:15):
Okay.

Rachel Casey (00:19:16):
But he could feel my,

Rachel Casey (00:19:18):
if I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:19:19):
he's going to be crazy in this meeting or,

Rachel Casey (00:19:22):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:19:22):
and once I let that go and surrendered it,

Rachel Casey (00:19:24):
he really was,

Rachel Casey (00:19:25):
he loves going.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:26):
That's really good.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:27):
That's really good to share that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:28):
Cause I felt the same way.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:30):
And, uh, I just asked you about why you asked or thought, uh, why you made that, uh, comment, uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:37):
feeling weird because i felt weird as a man watching other people's kids because

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:40):
you know there's all sorts of stigma around that oh i didn't think about that yeah

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:44):
yeah and most people don't you know i mean it but i i mean my because my biggest

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:50):
fear is like having my daughter taken away at this point because that's what i went

Paul Summers Jr. (00:19:54):
through you know but anyway so just for the for the person thinking of going to a

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:00):
meeting this woman got up and shared

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:03):
And she said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:03):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:04):
it might be a little bit of a distraction,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:06):
but if these parents are not here with their kids,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:09):
they're out there.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:10):
They're back out.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:12):
And it was like, thank you for putting it that way.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:14):
And that really that kind of helps the mindset of the person that doesn't have kids,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:18):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:18):
who's there and going,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:20):
oh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:20):
my God,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:21):
why is this little,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:22):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:22):
person coloring right now?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:24):
You know, because we have those obsessions, you know, and.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:28):
it's okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:20:29):
It's normal.

Rachel Casey (00:20:30):
I also think I was a little surprised on what I saw when I did start coming to the rooms.

Rachel Casey (00:20:36):
I'm like, I thought it was going to be a bunch of people that looked like me on day one.

Rachel Casey (00:20:41):
I'm like, these are put together people.

Rachel Casey (00:20:44):
So, you know, seeing someone with a child, I'm like,

Rachel Casey (00:20:50):
so you can, so you can keep your kids and you're an alcoholic.

Rachel Casey (00:20:55):
And, you know, I'm like, or that this is a well-behaved kid.

Rachel Casey (00:20:58):
Like, cause I didn't think that was possible.

Rachel Casey (00:21:00):
I'm like, I, we, I thought we were getting divorced, you know?

Rachel Casey (00:21:03):
So it was kind of like, um, you see a lot of hope in like, I never thought that would be possible.

Rachel Casey (00:21:10):
And so bringing in kids, you know, it's, yeah, we do recover.

Rachel Casey (00:21:14):
We, we, life is life.

Rachel Casey (00:21:16):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:21:16):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:21:17):
You know, it is trying to keep the meaning to its purpose.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:23):
You asked YNA.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:25):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:27):
And the reason the when I called a suicide hotline and they suggested to me that I

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:33):
go to treatment,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:34):
I was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:34):
I can't be away from my daughter.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:35):
I was still married at the time, but I just knew my daughter's not going to be OK.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:39):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:40):
And there are some of us who like use our kids as our reason to not get clean.

Rachel Casey (00:21:45):
Oh, I know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:46):
You know, right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:47):
We, we, we know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:48):
And, um, at that time I had not drank for 10 years.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:21:56):
So I, I had quit drinking on my own, like cold, you know, cold Turkey, uh, uh, dry drunk.

Rachel Casey (00:22:03):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:04):
Um, because that was that drug, uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:08):
to me did the most obvious damage, you know, like, uh, the things that alcohol does, you know, um,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:15):
i was very very blessed oh my god so blessed that uh i never got pulled over while

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:21):
i was impaired very impaired um same i should i should have been you know um and uh

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:29):
never ended up on the uh justice side of things i think that would have made me

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:36):
worse just because of my personality i would i would have like embraced the

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:40):
you know, the criminal being, you know, and I'm so glad that those things didn't happen.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:45):
But by the time that I, I was like, okay, I'll do outpatient treatment.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:49):
And they,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:50):
and when I went in,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:51):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:51):
they asked me about my drug use and,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:56):
and they said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:56):
which program do you want to do?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:58):
And I said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:58):
well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:22:58):
I might as well do the one for that covers all drugs because I don't,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:02):
I know I have a problem with alcohol,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:04):
but I,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:04):
I've been able to abstain.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:07):
So that was why.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:08):
But I've always gone.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:10):
So my first sponsor, he said, we're going to work the steps the AA way first.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:15):
So I did an AA version of the steps for my first time through.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:19):
And he also encouraged me to go to AA meetings.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:23:24):
So I've always been...

Rachel Casey (00:23:26):
Oh, NA is still AA, like they use the big book.

Rachel Casey (00:23:29):
You know, they just, they have the daily reflections I think is different.

Rachel Casey (00:23:32):
But I mean, it is all encompassing, which I do,

Rachel Casey (00:23:38):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:23:38):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:23:39):
it's funny that,

Rachel Casey (00:23:39):
like,

Rachel Casey (00:23:39):
CA,

Rachel Casey (00:23:40):
a lot of people don't actually have a problem even with cocaine.

Rachel Casey (00:23:45):
It's just really the younger crowd is in CA.

Rachel Casey (00:23:49):
But they read from the big book.

Rachel Casey (00:23:52):
They're all based on the same thing.

Rachel Casey (00:23:55):
But...

Rachel Casey (00:23:58):
I think the reason they, this is at like detox centers or the 24 hour clubs.

Rachel Casey (00:24:05):
NA is all encompassing.

Rachel Casey (00:24:07):
CA is all because with AA,

Rachel Casey (00:24:09):
technically people,

Rachel Casey (00:24:11):
if you have someone who's not as nice chairing or a super old timer,

Rachel Casey (00:24:14):
they'll be like,

Rachel Casey (00:24:15):
Hey,

Rachel Casey (00:24:15):
stick to our primary purpose.

Rachel Casey (00:24:17):
We don't talk about outside drugs and stuff.

Rachel Casey (00:24:19):
I'm like, well, if I'd never drank, I probably wouldn't have done drugs.

Rachel Casey (00:24:23):
But the drinking led to the drugs, and the drugs led to more drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:24:28):
And it's, I mean, it's all, it's addiction.

Rachel Casey (00:24:31):
You know what I mean?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:32):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:24:33):
It's my moral inventory.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:35):
Yeah, there's that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:36):
I mean, it's such an important conversation.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:39):
Because for me, what really happened, you know, because of COVID and being indoors, like, ugh.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:48):
And this even,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:49):
like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:49):
I wanted to include this talking about if Bill W.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:51):
were around today,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:52):
would he be on podcasts?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:24:59):
You know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:00):
it's these primary,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:02):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:02):
I think of Star Trek for some reason,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:04):
the prime directive,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:05):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:05):
it's like these,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:07):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:09):
these value systems that the steps set up to encourage a human being to do better,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:15):
to be better,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:16):
to treat themselves better so they can treat others better.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:19):
Like those are the important things, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:22):
I mean, if you're, you know, I'm not drinking, but I'm up for five days straight on meth.

Rachel Casey (00:25:29):
I would say that's equally as bad, you know, like it's an addiction.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:25:33):
And, but if I said that to you, oh, you know, that's bad, then I'm breaking my mind.

Rachel Casey (00:25:38):
Yeah, I totally agree.

Rachel Casey (00:25:42):
As someone who's chaired a lot of meetings too, I've never had someone go way off topic anyways.

Rachel Casey (00:25:49):
The only ones I've had to do is people talk about controlled drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:25:53):
The only one I pretty much shut down is I'm like,

Rachel Casey (00:25:56):
hey,

Rachel Casey (00:25:56):
can we stick to the primary purpose,

Rachel Casey (00:25:58):
which is not controlled drinking?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:00):
Yeah, you can...

Rachel Casey (00:26:04):
that's your experience, but like, we're here to share the message of that.

Rachel Casey (00:26:08):
We recover, not that like to plant seeds that you can go do it differently.

Rachel Casey (00:26:13):
If you want to go do it differently,

Rachel Casey (00:26:16):
be our guest where no one's stopping you,

Rachel Casey (00:26:18):
but that's not what we're here about.

Rachel Casey (00:26:20):
We're here because we couldn't do it differently.

Rachel Casey (00:26:23):
We tried all the different ways and couldn't do it.

Rachel Casey (00:26:27):
It was bigger than us.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:28):
Exactly.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:29):
It's our experience is like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:32):
And that was the thing that I thought,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:33):
well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:33):
a Bill W.,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:34):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:35):
he was able to point out the similarities.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:38):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:39):
He was able to notice and to notice,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:43):
like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:43):
here's some of the things we've all tried,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:46):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:47):
and we still ended up in the same place.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:49):
And here's this one other thing that we tried and we're not back in the same place.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:53):
Some of us are.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:54):
And we don't know why some of us are.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:57):
We're guessing that it's because of, you know, this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:26:59):
But.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:27:01):
Well,

Rachel Casey (00:27:01):
that's why he says to share,

Rachel Casey (00:27:03):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:27:03):
he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:27:04):
listen,

Rachel Casey (00:27:04):
he says,

Rachel Casey (00:27:06):
even when he says working step 12,

Rachel Casey (00:27:08):
which I still kind of laugh at,

Rachel Casey (00:27:09):
he's like,

Rachel Casey (00:27:10):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:27:10):
go to your doctor,

Rachel Casey (00:27:11):
he'll give you some sponsees,

Rachel Casey (00:27:13):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:27:14):
go to your local church,

Rachel Casey (00:27:16):
they know,

Rachel Casey (00:27:17):
they'll know someone in,

Rachel Casey (00:27:19):
he was just big.

Rachel Casey (00:27:20):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:27:20):
that's my bringing the message or going to meetings at the hospital at detox centers,

Rachel Casey (00:27:26):
probably one of my favorites.

Rachel Casey (00:27:27):
Like it is a spiritual experience every time because, uh, that's what Bill and Bob did.

Rachel Casey (00:27:34):
They just went up with Silkworth and they,

Rachel Casey (00:27:37):
he'd be like,

Rachel Casey (00:27:38):
Hey,

Rachel Casey (00:27:38):
do you have someone who's detoxing on alcohol?

Rachel Casey (00:27:41):
And that's where that picture of them sitting on the bed with the guy in the white t-shirt,

Rachel Casey (00:27:45):
who's the alcoholic there,

Rachel Casey (00:27:47):
Bill and Bob carrying the message.

Rachel Casey (00:27:49):
Um, and okay.

Rachel Casey (00:27:51):
One thing I want to hear, um,

Rachel Casey (00:27:54):
How the sober festivals, this camp sober fest, I'm intrigued and curious and maybe want to go.

Rachel Casey (00:28:02):
So how does that work?

Rachel Casey (00:28:05):
What is that?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:07):
OK, there's a woman named Breezy Nolan, and she is.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:14):
Well, I know she works with Taste Recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:20):
She took over this event last year.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:24):
Okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:25):
I think it had gone on three or four years prior up in Big Bear, which is outside of L.A.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:31):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:33):
And where are you guys at?

Rachel Casey (00:28:35):
We're Dallas, but my grandma was in Santa Monica for a very long time.

Rachel Casey (00:28:39):
So, I mean, that's where I go every summer in Palm Springs.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:42):
Oh, heck yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:28:43):
I mean, she was right in it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:46):
I grew up in Las Vegas and I mean,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:28:48):
Southern Cal was where we went for vacation and have fun and party all the time.

Rachel Casey (00:28:52):
Oh, really?

Rachel Casey (00:28:53):
oh yeah yeah the meetings in vegas are another level too like i we because we've

Rachel Casey (00:28:58):
gone and they're huge and like they have a huge amount of coffee and it was like i

Rachel Casey (00:29:04):
mean there was a giant 50 to 70 people and it was amazing 7 30 in the morning it

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:10):
was yeah it was awesome you know i mean it's a it's a town of intelligence i mean i

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:15):
it enabled my addiction in so many ways you know um

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:20):
Uh, it's all Vegas's fault, man.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:21):
No, no, no.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:22):
I didn't mean that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:24):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:24):
Like taking my daughter back there when she was,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:28):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:28):
much younger and it was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:31):
daddy,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:31):
I want this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:32):
I want, you know, candy everywhere.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:33):
And it's like, wow.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:34):
Like any addiction you can think of is like blaring at you there, you know, oxygen in there for a reason.

Rachel Casey (00:29:41):
Exactly.

Rachel Casey (00:29:43):
They want you awake.

Rachel Casey (00:29:44):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:45):
so so camp sober fest uh i came across it on instagram um and so it's it's let me

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:56):
get my facts straight on it it's either three or four days i think it's it's four

Paul Summers Jr. (00:29:59):
days um i mean like it starts thursday and goes through sunday and i believe so um

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:09):
And last year they had it at a place called Camp Sequoia, which was up in this by Sequoia National Park.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:14):
Oh, my God.

Rachel Casey (00:30:15):
I think I've been to Sequoia.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:16):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:17):
I mean, just like ideal serenity spot.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:21):
Like Joshua tree.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:22):
Well, she just did, or they just did a spooky fest in Joshua tree.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:26):
So camps over fest is a couple of day festival.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:29):
It's all these events for people in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:32):
Uh, I don't know if there's a clean time expectation there.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:34):
I don't think so.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:36):
It might be 48 hours, but I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:38):
Um,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:40):
But you have cabins,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:42):
you have a mess hall,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:44):
there's meetings,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:44):
there's activities,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:46):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:46):
hiking,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:48):
boating,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:48):
swimming.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:49):
The lake is like crazy warm for being at 9000 feet.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:30:55):
And I got a hold of Breezy and I was like, hey, I do this sound healing thing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:01):
um you know also there's like breath work there's yoga in the morning um so all

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:06):
these things you know for somebody to expand even more what they enjoy in recovery

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:12):
you know and uh and uh she was like well tell me about it so i told her about it

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:21):
and and so

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:24):
my background.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:25):
So I was a musician my whole life.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:27):
I played music for a living,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:28):
sold CDs out of the van toward the country,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:31):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:31):
that kind of thing played,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:32):
played covers to,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:33):
to pay the bills.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:34):
I picked up like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:36):
Part time jobs here and there,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:37):
but I never had a career that would earn me a substantial living,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:41):
you know.

Rachel Casey (00:31:42):
So it allowed you to live the life you wanted, because I said that with waiting tables, I could drink.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:31:48):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:31:49):
And still, I don't know how I kept it together looking back.

Rachel Casey (00:31:53):
But in the same you, you would tennis that kind of allowed you to.

Colin Casey (00:31:57):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:31:58):
I was teaching tennis full time, but you would drink with people or yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:32:03):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:32:03):
so the lifestyle we want to,

Rachel Casey (00:32:05):
I feel like we look at careers and stuff that we suited around our drinking and even,

Rachel Casey (00:32:11):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:32:11):
obviously playing was a passion,

Rachel Casey (00:32:13):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:32:13):
you find his tennis is still his passion,

Rachel Casey (00:32:16):
but we kind of made it suitable of like,

Rachel Casey (00:32:19):
well,

Colin Casey (00:32:20):
I can drink around.

Colin Casey (00:32:21):
I can drink around.

Rachel Casey (00:32:22):
I can make life work with alcohol or whatever.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:32:26):
And me being a singer, songwriter, guitar player.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:32:29):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:32:32):
I mean, the alcohol early on was just like a benefit, I guess.

Colin Casey (00:32:36):
I feel like that's the excuse we give ourselves is it's our muse.

Colin Casey (00:32:40):
We need this in order to create.

Rachel Casey (00:32:42):
I've wrote so much better stuff in sobriety,

Rachel Casey (00:32:44):
even though I'm like,

Rachel Casey (00:32:45):
oh,

Rachel Casey (00:32:45):
drinking,

Rachel Casey (00:32:46):
smoking makes me get more in touch.

Rachel Casey (00:32:48):
And I'm like, no, it doesn't.

Rachel Casey (00:32:49):
That's a lie.

Rachel Casey (00:32:50):
Like, that was the disease told me that.

Rachel Casey (00:32:54):
But anyways, go.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:32:55):
Well, I came from a family where, you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:00):
And I the question I dreaded any time I ate dinner with my mom and dad was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:04):
what are you going to do with your life?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:05):
And I mean,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:06):
I was 25 years old,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:07):
like making music for a living,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:10):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:10):
playing,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:11):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:11):
six nights a week to be able to make my rent.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:14):
You know, my value system was I take care of me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:17):
And just like, what am I going to do with my life?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:19):
And my mom's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:19):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:19):
it's not too late for you to be a teller at a bank,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:21):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:22):
and because that's where she started.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:23):
And she ended up,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:24):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:25):
having a good career because she got into the technical side of things,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:30):
you know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:31):
Anyway, it's like it was a pressure.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:33):
It was like a like, I'll take on the pressure.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:35):
Let's go.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:35):
You know, like, I'll show you I can make a living doing this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:38):
And yeah, the drinking especially was that's where you play to make money was bars.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:46):
You know, you don't play at the library and make money, you know, you know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:50):
OK, so all these years I'd played music.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:53):
I knew it was my gift because,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:54):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:33:55):
I devoted my life to like being really good on the guitar and singing and crafting songs.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:00):
And my addiction slowly just chipped away at that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:04):
And by the time I was in.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:06):
my late thirties I was, I was, you know, on a downward spiral.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:11):
And then I had my daughter and, you know, she was like all the hope in the world.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:16):
Like, you know, my life's going to change.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:18):
And my addiction kept spiraling down and my talent kept withering away.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:25):
And then I got,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:26):
and then,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:27):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:27):
the day I come home from work and my daughter's gone and it's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:31):
wow,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:32):
everything changed.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:32):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:34):
Within a year of that time,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:36):
I ended up with sole custody of her because of her mom's using and our daughter got

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:43):
harmed on her mom's watch.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:45):
And,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:45):
uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:46):
so the state intervened and,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:48):
uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:49):
at that point it's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:50):
I got to work,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:51):
I got to work and there's nothing there,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:53):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:53):
there's no like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:54):
I don't,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:55):
I'm sure as heck ain't going to go play bars.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34:57):
Um, I, I knew I was able to, because I hadn't drank in so many years.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:35:03):
I actually did relapse on alcohol.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:35:05):
Um, I think it was about four months before I eventually got completely clean and sober.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:35:11):
Um,

Rachel Casey (00:35:12):
Well,

Rachel Casey (00:35:13):
your mind tells you maybe I can do it differently with this or,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:35:16):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:35:16):
that's exactly what my mind told me.

Rachel Casey (00:35:18):
I really think that helps establish sobriety.

Rachel Casey (00:35:21):
If I'm being honest, like I've told people, I'm like, you just have a powerful step one.

Rachel Casey (00:35:27):
You know, you have because we haven't gone back out since we took our desire chip.

Rachel Casey (00:35:32):
But I've told Colin to our drinking dreams or things like that.

Rachel Casey (00:35:36):
I kind of look at as another step one because I'm like, it feels so real.

Rachel Casey (00:35:40):
I know I've just tried to quit so many times.

Rachel Casey (00:35:44):
I know what I know.

Rachel Casey (00:35:45):
I can't do it differently.

Rachel Casey (00:35:46):
Like, yeah, but that's OK.

Rachel Casey (00:35:49):
Come back because all you did is say, hey.

Rachel Casey (00:35:53):
I can't do it.

Rachel Casey (00:35:54):
Like I, you just reestablished, you got stronger, really.

Rachel Casey (00:35:58):
I'm not encouraging, but I'm saying it.

Rachel Casey (00:36:02):
I think one of the hardest things I hear is people that relapse,

Rachel Casey (00:36:06):
they they're scared to come back or ashamed or no,

Rachel Casey (00:36:10):
come back,

Rachel Casey (00:36:11):
share,

Rachel Casey (00:36:11):
tell your story.

Rachel Casey (00:36:12):
It'll, it just makes your step one so stronger.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:16):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:17):
Cause I,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:17):
like I said,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:18):
I put together,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:19):
I think it was 64 days and the,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:22):
the seven months that followed that when I relapsed,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:26):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:26):
now I included drinking again and I was an ugly drunk,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:30):
according to my ex-wife,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:31):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:32):
um,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:33):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:33):
that seven months was the worst.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:35):
Like we, we lost everything in that seven months.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:38):
And, uh, and, uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:42):
And when I came back to the room, I was scared.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:43):
I was so scared of showing my face and having somebody go, Oh, you're bad, you know, or whatever.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:48):
I was so afraid,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:50):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:51):
and it's very,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:52):
I think,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:52):
common for us to like beat ourselves up way more than anybody else ever could,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:55):
you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:56):
And so I stood outside the meeting and had a panic attack,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:36:59):
one that I had attended regularly in those 60 days.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:37:02):
And I ended up going to a different meeting.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:37:04):
I was so terrified.

Rachel Casey (00:37:05):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:37:06):
And I mean, that's the story our head tells us.

Rachel Casey (00:37:09):
And yeah,

Rachel Casey (00:37:10):
What's the truth is you walk in there and you will never feel more loved.

Rachel Casey (00:37:14):
It's like, they're so glad you're back.

Rachel Casey (00:37:17):
I've been on the side of seeing someone.

Rachel Casey (00:37:19):
I'm like, oh my God, thank God you're back.

Rachel Casey (00:37:23):
And they're expecting to be like, I can't believe.

Colin Casey (00:37:26):
Or shunned.

Colin Casey (00:37:27):
Shunned or shamed.

Rachel Casey (00:37:28):
You have to go sit in the...

Rachel Casey (00:37:30):
corner that chair for you know we're so we'll give you whatever you want seriously

Rachel Casey (00:37:35):
we'll go make your coffee for you we'll go get you a sprite or a coke whatever

Paul Summers Jr. (00:37:40):
we're just glad you're back yeah the the nice god shot that happened in that is i

Paul Summers Jr. (00:37:44):
you know so i i was in fear and i went to a different meeting that same night you

Paul Summers Jr. (00:37:50):
know i didn't wait another day i went to a different meeting and uh i i show up and

Paul Summers Jr. (00:37:54):
somebody hands me that uh you know oh you're you're chairing tonight

Rachel Casey (00:37:59):
Oh, my God.

Rachel Casey (00:38:00):
Oh, no.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:02):
And then after the meeting, it was perfect.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:05):
And after the meeting,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:06):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:06):
a young woman came up to me and she's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:08):
oh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:08):
my God,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:08):
you told me exactly what I needed to hear.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:12):
I was so ready to go use tonight.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:14):
And I went, you know, there's that's the program.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:16):
You know, that's the guy, you know, the higher power working.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:19):
You know, yeah, my fear gripped me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:22):
I was afraid to go show my face.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:24):
Part of it was because there was a lot of old timers at that meeting.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:26):
I was just so sure that they'd be like, oh, it doesn't work out anymore.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:31):
Wait, why are old timers pirates in my head?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:35):
I don't know.

Colin Casey (00:38:35):
If you're listening, they will not.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:38:36):
Even the one that looks like a super pirate.

Rachel Casey (00:38:38):
He will...

Rachel Casey (00:38:46):
It's the very few times you get those grumpy old men that they see someone who's

Rachel Casey (00:38:50):
new and they turn into a teddy bear and they understand and they,

Rachel Casey (00:38:55):
and they listen and they'll give you good advice.

Rachel Casey (00:38:58):
If you just listen, they'll tell you something mean and be like, take the cotton balls out of your ears.

Rachel Casey (00:39:03):
And, but they're only doing it out of love.

Rachel Casey (00:39:06):
They,

Rachel Casey (00:39:06):
because they,

Rachel Casey (00:39:07):
they too had cotton balls in their ears and they,

Rachel Casey (00:39:11):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:39:11):
it's hard sometimes not everyone's great at,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:15):
conveying there was a guy at that meeting they called him baseball bat bob because

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:19):
he actually like took a bat on somebody out i mean like he was he was messed he was

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:23):
a messed up old dude and uh something happened where he he finally got recovery and

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:29):
he he's

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:31):
was a speaker at a meeting one night and he was the softest, gentlest man inside.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:35):
And he had been molested as a child.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:37):
And,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:37):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:38):
and it's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:38):
you didn't know all this about this guy who like saw the world as this thing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:42):
He had to fight all the time,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:43):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:43):
and the foot,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:44):
the program finally sent set in for him,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:46):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:46):
anyway,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:48):
my kid,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:49):
I have to work for a living.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:50):
There's no, there's really no time for music.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:53):
Uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:53):
I,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:54):
I,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:54):
I played an occasional show,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:39:55):
but I probably went from playing between 150 and 250 shows a year to about five to 10,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:04):
you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:04):
And so, cause I played all, I used to play all the time and, uh, um,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:11):
Then I got married.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:11):
I got remarried.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:14):
My wife eventually started doing Al-Anon because her dad died of alcoholic dementia.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:19):
Her ex-husband was mostly mentally abusive, but he had some issues with using as well.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:31):
So I have two stepkids.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:33):
We met through our daughters.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:34):
All three kids have type 1 diabetes, and

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:37):
um our daughters met at at a diabetes camp and they became absolutely 100 like

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:43):
inseparable best friends they were so much alike and uh and anyway so i the

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:49):
following year i kept hearing about this zoe who's zoe you know i can't wait to see

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:53):
zoe right and then the next year i'm standing in line and i'm and like there's zoe

Paul Summers Jr. (00:40:58):
and i'm like oh you're zoe's mom hey you know and she's just like

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:03):
get away from me you know she we were both at that stage in being single parents

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:07):
that it's like there's no time for like some love or whatever and and and we

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:12):
actually you know hey can i get your number we have a lot in common maybe we can

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:15):
talk and we were just friends for like three months and i was like i'm gonna ask

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:18):
her i'm gonna ask her out well your kids are also if they're friends that helps

Rachel Casey (00:41:22):
because you can go like to the play dates together you know if it were dropping

Rachel Casey (00:41:28):
kid off and like you're not with but if you're hanging out with their best friends that kind of

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:34):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:35):
They kept saying, we ship you guys.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:36):
I don't know if you remember that saying where it's like, we approve of you being together.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:39):
Oh yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:40):
I do.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:41):
I was like, I know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:42):
It was so cute.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:44):
I mean,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:44):
they were,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:44):
we,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:45):
we,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:45):
we all moved in together when they were,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:47):
it was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:48):
and then my youngest or my step,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:50):
my stepson,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:51):
his name's Evan as well.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:52):
And, uh, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:55):
And, uh, and he, so he's two years younger than the girls.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:41:59):
So,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:00):
Um, I mean, they were 14 and he was 12, the worst possible age to bring a family together.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:06):
And then COVID hit.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:08):
I mean, we went through a lot and we, we almost didn't make it, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:12):
Um, I, I like, I think it was five months before COVID hit.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:19):
I had quit my job of 12 years to write the book.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:23):
And it's like, I got this time in this space.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:26):
I'm home.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:26):
The kids are at school.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:27):
My wife's at work.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:28):
And then COVID hits.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:29):
And everybody's home.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:31):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:31):
And it's like, oh.

Rachel Casey (00:42:32):
Not my ideal writing space.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:34):
No.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:35):
It was rough.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:42:36):
No.

Colin Casey (00:42:37):
And then you were.

Rachel Casey (00:42:39):
We were still drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:42:40):
So, I mean, sorry.

Colin Casey (00:42:41):
Well, and he was like one and a half where you had preteens and teenagers.

Colin Casey (00:42:46):
So, you also became somewhat of a teacher, too, because of all the Zoom.

Colin Casey (00:42:50):
Like, we avoided that.

Rachel Casey (00:42:51):
Evan was before one.

Rachel Casey (00:42:52):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:42:53):
COVID hit before he was one.

Rachel Casey (00:42:54):
Yeah, that's right.

Colin Casey (00:42:56):
He was just 6'9".

Rachel Casey (00:42:58):
And we upped the drinking to a max.

Rachel Casey (00:43:01):
I bet.

Colin Casey (00:43:02):
There's so many people I think died.

Colin Casey (00:43:05):
yeah they had it delivered you know they changed the law different you know kid

Colin Casey (00:43:10):
gates all over the house and he wasn't walking yet so even being drunk it was easy

Colin Casey (00:43:16):
to watch him because he could only crawl to certain areas of the house we would

Rachel Casey (00:43:20):
safe proof the house for our drinking you know like and how that sounds so

Paul Summers Jr. (00:43:25):
ridiculous today i'm like i relate to that though i i know what you're saying yeah

Paul Summers Jr. (00:43:31):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:43:31):
And I would be angry if bedtime didn't work exactly how it was supposed to because

Rachel Casey (00:43:35):
it interfered with mommy's time to start drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:43:38):
And, you know, and it's like, I can't imagine today.

Rachel Casey (00:43:44):
I don't have, you know, I don't get if things mess up, we're a lot easier.

Rachel Casey (00:43:52):
The program has just taught me to pause.

Rachel Casey (00:43:54):
I don't have to react.

Rachel Casey (00:43:56):
I can respond and not always perfect.

Rachel Casey (00:44:01):
I still have clips, but I also make amends.

Rachel Casey (00:44:03):
Did you make amends to your daughter when she was young?

Rachel Casey (00:44:09):
Ever?

Rachel Casey (00:44:09):
Because I do it to Evan.

Rachel Casey (00:44:10):
I'll be like, hey, I owe you an amend, buddy.

Rachel Casey (00:44:13):
I said he's going to be on the playground making amends with other kids.

Rachel Casey (00:44:17):
They're going to be like, what's an amend?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:44:19):
What?

Colin Casey (00:44:23):
that's fine so you wrote the book or you got how long did you have to kind of pause

Colin Casey (00:44:29):
or you get delayed in your writing because you had this ideal situation oh I'm

Colin Casey (00:44:33):
going to write I'll have this time alone and then COVID happens and then everyone's

Colin Casey (00:44:37):
in your creative space and then how did you work around that and how once COVID

Colin Casey (00:44:43):
started the band's lift were you able to get back to your project because I mean

Colin Casey (00:44:48):
yeah this has been a kind of ongoing project for you

Paul Summers Jr. (00:44:51):
right yeah i mean i i did what i could when i could um i mean fortunately it's a

Paul Summers Jr. (00:44:57):
memoir it's not like a creative i mean i got creative in the writing yeah you know

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:03):
um but i i i found ways like i i'm good at like you know nose to the grindstone i

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:11):
know i got to do this um so uh like i mean we even separated at one point we lived

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:18):
in two different houses uh just because

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:22):
I needed to focus on, well, for a lot of reasons to take the steam off the pressure cooker.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:27):
Um, me and Nevin kind of, God went at it one day and I was like, we can't have that escalate ever.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:32):
Like that can't, that can't be a thing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:34):
You know, I love this kid and he loves me, but right now we're not in our best.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:39):
And, uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:41):
So I just I found ways, you know, resourceful addict.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:45:45):
No,

Rachel Casey (00:45:46):
I think it's really powerful to like,

Rachel Casey (00:45:48):
I think some of the times I've gone even at it with our Evan or,

Rachel Casey (00:45:53):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:45:54):
made a mistake.

Rachel Casey (00:45:56):
I never grew up seeing things recover like that.

Rachel Casey (00:45:58):
We just moved on and didn't talk and like being able to acknowledge this is, there's a problem here.

Rachel Casey (00:46:05):
We got to figure out how to fix it.

Rachel Casey (00:46:08):
Like, I'm very glad that Evan's growing up being able to see that.

Rachel Casey (00:46:12):
Cause I never saw that.

Rachel Casey (00:46:13):
I thought when you got over it and you never talked about it again.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:46:17):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:46:17):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:46:18):
That's how I grew up, too.

Colin Casey (00:46:20):
And it took days to get over it.

Colin Casey (00:46:23):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (00:46:24):
The men now come a lot faster and there were more sincere with our apologies

Colin Casey (00:46:32):
instead of just saying it to get over the argument or move past the argument.

Rachel Casey (00:46:36):
it doesn't feel good to hold on to it.

Rachel Casey (00:46:38):
Like if I do something wrong, I'm not, I don't want to carry it the whole day.

Rachel Casey (00:46:42):
I want to go say, Hey bud, listen, mom, mom made a mistake.

Rachel Casey (00:46:47):
I reacted.

Rachel Casey (00:46:47):
I didn't respond and that wasn't right.

Rachel Casey (00:46:50):
And you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:46:51):
Yeah, that was the turn for me, too, was, like, realizing it's hurting me to carry this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:46:56):
It does.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:46:57):
Oh, my God.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:46:58):
I used to felt so, you know, privileged to be mad.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:02):
Like, that was my privilege.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:03):
You know, I get to be mad at you.

Rachel Casey (00:47:05):
Yeah, no, I used to throw things.

Rachel Casey (00:47:08):
So, yeah, I know.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:09):
Yeah, yeah, same.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:11):
And just, like.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:12):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:14):
Well, wait a minute though.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:15):
That's like, I'm obsessing on this.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:18):
I'm so mad.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:19):
I'm obsessing a day, two days goes by.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:22):
I haven't completed any tasks really.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:26):
You know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:26):
I've gone through the motions of making food or whatever,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:29):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:29):
the things that I got to do to survive,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:30):
like the lizard brain,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:31):
it's a lizard brain,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:32):
you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:32):
And, and yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:34):
And then I just realized,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:35):
well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:36):
if I say something now and then,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:39):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:39):
at first it was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:41):
what's the saying?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:42):
Uh, uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:44):
fake it till you make it or i mean i just try it you know i tried it you know hey

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:50):
i'm sorry i did that i'm so mad still though and you know and that was like okay

Paul Summers Jr. (00:47:56):
why am i mad though

Colin Casey (00:47:58):
yeah i know a phrase well a phrase we like that is get the mind there and the body

Colin Casey (00:48:03):
will follow i like that no it's backwards get the body there the mind will i'm

Rachel Casey (00:48:09):
dyslexic it's like when i didn't want to go to a meeting but i knew i needed a

Rachel Casey (00:48:14):
meeting and this has come a lot from i i've been dealing with illness like physical

Rachel Casey (00:48:20):
yeah

Rachel Casey (00:48:21):
mystery illness some think it's because it was covered up by drinking and I was

Rachel Casey (00:48:25):
like coping but my blood work is very bad for a couple years now and no one can

Rachel Casey (00:48:32):
figure it out and I would say so my job is to get in the car and deliver my body to

Rachel Casey (00:48:40):
the meeting and my mind will follow if my mind does not follow I can leave but

Rachel Casey (00:48:48):
It always follows.

Rachel Casey (00:48:49):
And I am in the parking lot and I'm like, yeah, I'm walking up the stairs.

Rachel Casey (00:48:54):
And again, I have to separate it so much.

Rachel Casey (00:48:58):
The gym to get the go drive, get your body to the treadmill.

Rachel Casey (00:49:03):
And if you really don't feel like turning it on, you can leave.

Rachel Casey (00:49:06):
But there's a good chance your mind will follow.

Rachel Casey (00:49:09):
And I think I do that with writing with I'm in school, though.

Rachel Casey (00:49:13):
So it's a little different writing.

Rachel Casey (00:49:14):
But like, hey, if I can pick up the pen, set up my station, get in front of it.

Rachel Casey (00:49:21):
My mind will follow.

Rachel Casey (00:49:22):
Now, the problem is when my body, I can't get it going.

Rachel Casey (00:49:26):
And that's where the real bad days are.

Rachel Casey (00:49:28):
But even for this podcast,

Rachel Casey (00:49:30):
sometimes we have to sit down and say,

Rachel Casey (00:49:33):
let's get everything set up,

Rachel Casey (00:49:34):
get our butts in the chairs.

Rachel Casey (00:49:36):
And there hasn't been a time where we're like, yeah, we're just not going to record.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:39):
Speaking of sound healing then.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:41):
Yeah, exactly.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:43):
With your body too.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:44):
Okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:44):
Okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:48):
so the kids grow up, uh, the daughters have both moved out.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:52):
Uh, our son, Evan, he's, uh, 19.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:55):
He's still, you know, he's still home.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:56):
He's just 19.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:57):
He just turned 19.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:49:58):
Um, he's looking to go into the trades, which is awesome.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:01):
Like he wants to be an electrician, which is like, ah, do it, do it, do it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:05):
We support you.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:06):
Um,

Rachel Casey (00:50:07):
They do great.

Rachel Casey (00:50:08):
I love trade school.

Rachel Casey (00:50:09):
I think it's way better because you're focused.

Rachel Casey (00:50:11):
You get to learn what you actually want to do.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:13):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:14):
And you're usually doing it while you're learning it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:16):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:16):
Yeah, exactly.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:18):
And so I was like, you know, OK, so.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:22):
Writing the book came from years of prayer.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:23):
It really did.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:25):
And like I've said earlier in this podcast,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:28):
like I'm very much about self being self-supporting,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:32):
like no one's going to pay my way.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:33):
You know, I was like that before at times and felt horrible.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:38):
It just it's demeaning to me, you know, to me.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:41):
And,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:43):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:43):
and my wife,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:44):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:45):
I respect like she has a level of comfort that she wants to have,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:48):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:49):
and she's got a great job.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:53):
But that doesn't mean she has, hello kitty, that she has like this level of comfort, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:50:58):
And so I'm like, you know, can we pray on it?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:01):
I keep getting these nudges from my higher power that I need to write this memoir.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:06):
I need it to help, you know, other dads who might be going through the same thing and just like give up.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:13):
I have come across plenty of moms who are like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:15):
oh,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:15):
I just gave my kid to my parents because they're going to do better with her.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:19):
And it's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:20):
No, it's just our disease is telling us we're not good enough.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:23):
Go ahead.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:23):
Just use the kid will be fine.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:25):
You know, that kind of stuff.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:26):
And it's like, OK, I need to write this book.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:28):
I need to address how our brains work.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:32):
And maybe that will help somebody that's not an addict or alcoholic understand a little bit better.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:38):
The disease in the brain of the thoughts that we get, how do why do we tell ourselves this is OK?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:44):
Why do we tell ourselves, oh, yeah, I'll be there at nine and we show up at 1030 and think that was fine.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:49):
Well, I had some things to do.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:51):
You know, hey, I have a life, too.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:52):
You know, all the excuses, the rationalizations, the denial, like all this stuff.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:56):
I wanted to put it put it in the book.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:51:59):
I wanted to write a book that had it in it because the memoirs that I had been

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:02):
reading at that time didn't have that in that they they were the mess.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:07):
You know, the the change in the message.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:10):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:10):
And it's like, well, I'd rather like not focus on the mess.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:13):
I'd rather focus on, you know, I don't want to write my story of all the years I used.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:17):
I want to write my story of like, why did I change everything, you know, and.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:24):
The hope, the hope that it can be done.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:26):
It can,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:27):
it can,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:27):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:28):
and it's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:29):
I,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:29):
I got burned out at being at meetings and saying it can,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:32):
it can be done,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:33):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:33):
Hey,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:33):
come on.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:35):
And there's plenty of other people there to do that, do that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:39):
And so I felt like this would be my different way of giving back to the community,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:44):
giving back to the recovery people that need it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:47):
And, and then had this cushion, you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:51):
Quit my job of 12 years, wrote the book, put it out this year.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:52:59):
It's a big, big accomplishment.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:03):
It finally came out in April.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:05):
It was published in April.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:07):
And at that point, I was like, okay, you know, I've done that thing that I believe God has asked of me.

Rachel Casey (00:53:15):
You got an award for it, correct?

Rachel Casey (00:53:16):
I was like, I'm pretty sure I saw it got awarded.

Rachel Casey (00:53:19):
Like, I mean.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:20):
Yeah, it got the Ian Award.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:21):
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:53:23):
That had to have felt so great because it's not easy to write a memoir.

Rachel Casey (00:53:28):
It's a huge accomplishment.

Rachel Casey (00:53:29):
It's awesome.

Rachel Casey (00:53:30):
And it's going to help a lot of people because people that aren't ready to go in

Rachel Casey (00:53:34):
that room might want to read about,

Rachel Casey (00:53:36):
hey,

Rachel Casey (00:53:37):
well.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:39):
Yeah, exactly.

Rachel Casey (00:53:40):
This is the softer, easier way until they get there, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:43):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:43):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:44):
Because I read stuff before I went in.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:46):
So did I. I mean, that was really that was a big influence for me was

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:51):
was some of the memoirs that I had read about people, you know, getting clean, getting close to sober.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:53:59):
And I was,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:01):
at that point,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:02):
I was like really missing,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:04):
I ended up going back to work,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:06):
my employment,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:09):
the place I'd been for 12 years,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:10):
they hired me back.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:12):
And I really missed playing music a lot.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:16):
I knew that's always been my gift.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:19):
And I wanted to know how am I going to do this to give back?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:22):
I thought,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:22):
well,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:22):
one thing that really helps me a lot is like late at night,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:25):
I listen to like chill music,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:26):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:26):
lo-fi,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:28):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:29):
and why don't I start doing that?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:30):
So I started dabbling in that for a bit, putting out some songs.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:36):
And I got a call from a friend.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:40):
So I used to be in punk bands in Las Vegas and

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:43):
uh i have uh gonna i'm gonna do a little self whatever no no go for it go for it i

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:50):
love it i have a guitar hanging at the punk rock museum in las vegas which is like

Paul Summers Jr. (00:54:56):
an international museum that people come to to it's this amazing punk rock museum

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:01):
they dedicated a wall in in the 80s we had this amazing punk scene in las vegas um

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:07):
every big band came through las vegas

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:10):
Vegas was a very I don't mean to be demeaning to any group of people,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:15):
but the concept of like redneck,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:18):
like close minded.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:19):
Vegas was like that in the 80s.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:21):
A lot of people don't know that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:24):
The bands that were like the music that was on the strip was the stuff from the 40s and the 50s.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:30):
It was not a progressive music town.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:33):
And so we had to do our gigs like out in the desert.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:36):
We'd rent a generator and have bands come out there.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:39):
And so we had this very but we had about three to five hundred kids that showed up every week.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:44):
You know, as often as we put on shows, they showed up anyway.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:49):
The people that put together the Punk Rock Museum, Fat Mike from NoFX is one of the one of the founders.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:55:57):
They decided to dedicate a wall to the local scene.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:56:00):
And so, you know, what a validation of like, you know, this music that everybody said is going nowhere.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:56:06):
It'll never amount to anything.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:56:07):
No one will remember punk rock music in 20 years, you know, and anyways.

Colin Casey (00:56:12):
question about your yeah book when you were mentioning it and the different things

Colin Casey (00:56:15):
because I I think you you said this because it's I think a hard thing for people to

Colin Casey (00:56:20):
understand or realize an addict's mindset until they kind of become an addict and

Colin Casey (00:56:26):
as you mentioned like you know being always being late to places and like you show

Colin Casey (00:56:31):
up I'll be there at 9 30 and you show up at 10 30 or 11 like you said it's like

Colin Casey (00:56:35):
well I have a life too I got and you're already ready to have this combatant energy

Colin Casey (00:56:40):
and argument okay

Colin Casey (00:56:42):
Like, I'm right, you're wrong, why can't you just chill?

Colin Casey (00:56:45):
Because,

Colin Casey (00:56:46):
and I even remember I have friends before I,

Colin Casey (00:56:49):
you know,

Colin Casey (00:56:50):
they say it's a progressive disease,

Colin Casey (00:56:51):
which I believe,

Colin Casey (00:56:52):
because before I was an addict,

Colin Casey (00:56:54):
I could never comprehend my friends who were addicts.

Colin Casey (00:56:58):
I was like, why can't you just wait to do that after you go to work?

Colin Casey (00:57:01):
Why can't you just do, it was always, why can't you just, why can't you just, why can't you just?

Colin Casey (00:57:07):
Right.

Colin Casey (00:57:08):
And I just couldn't comprehend the disease until the disease took hold of me,

Colin Casey (00:57:13):
and I'm doing these things.

Colin Casey (00:57:14):
And then looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay.

Colin Casey (00:57:18):
I had no control over it.

Colin Casey (00:57:20):
Just like my friends in their early 20s had no control over getting high before work,

Colin Casey (00:57:26):
and that's why they can never keep a job and things like that.

Colin Casey (00:57:29):
And like you said,

Colin Casey (00:57:31):
it's a very interesting point that a lot of,

Colin Casey (00:57:33):
I think,

Colin Casey (00:57:34):
normies don't understand or don't get.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:37):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:37):
It's natural for a normie to live life on life's terms.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:41):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:42):
And we have this concept that like, well, that's stupid.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:46):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:47):
Living on my terms.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:49):
Everything.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:57:49):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:57:50):
And everyone else around me can adapt.

Rachel Casey (00:57:51):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:57:54):
And I also didn't see how bad my drinking was when I was drunk,

Rachel Casey (00:57:59):
because it's not like you can take it back.

Rachel Casey (00:58:01):
You know, once I was over the line, especially as a mom.

Rachel Casey (00:58:05):
And let's let's also mention the fact of.

Rachel Casey (00:58:09):
I also too thought like when I became a mom,

Rachel Casey (00:58:12):
it would,

Rachel Casey (00:58:12):
I hadn't drank for nine months,

Rachel Casey (00:58:15):
you know,

Rachel Casey (00:58:16):
my drinking,

Rachel Casey (00:58:16):
like I was going to be responsible.

Rachel Casey (00:58:18):
This is a new life.

Rachel Casey (00:58:19):
This is a new lease.

Rachel Casey (00:58:20):
Parenting's hard.

Rachel Casey (00:58:22):
And I had no coping tools.

Rachel Casey (00:58:25):
I didn't have what the program teaches me.

Rachel Casey (00:58:27):
So when things got really hard, I drank.

Rachel Casey (00:58:31):
You know, and parenting newborns, it's hard.

Rachel Casey (00:58:37):
And it's not to say it's a trigger.

Rachel Casey (00:58:40):
It's a blessing.

Rachel Casey (00:58:40):
I know that now.

Rachel Casey (00:58:41):
But if you don't have the tools, you don't have the...

Rachel Casey (00:58:46):
resources it i understand if someone's drinking i get it i did it i did it and you

Rachel Casey (00:58:54):
know so if you're a parent out there and you're thinking you can't do it i promise

Rachel Casey (00:58:59):
if you go and reach out to another alcoholic who's a parent we'll tell you there's

Rachel Casey (00:59:03):
other tools it's hard but if you're willing to do anything you can do exactly what

Rachel Casey (00:59:08):
i did because i was with you know but i was willing to do anything to get sober um

Rachel Casey (00:59:14):
But yeah, parenting's hard.

Rachel Casey (00:59:16):
It's not easy, but we do it.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:18):
I'm glad you mentioned that because I don't think I said that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:20):
So I have a grandson.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:21):
Oh, congratulations.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:24):
Yeah, thank you.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:25):
My mom really loves our son.

Rachel Casey (00:59:27):
It's like her second chance, kind of.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:29):
It kind of is.

Rachel Casey (00:59:30):
It's just 11 through sober eyes because she didn't see my sister and I through sober eyes.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:37):
There was like an Instagram post that said something like that.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:40):
It's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:41):
it's,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:41):
it's,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:42):
it's not that I love your grandson more than you,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:44):
but it's like your grandson represents the you that I didn't get to see because I

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:49):
was using at the time,

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:50):
you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:50):
And, and, um, uh, so yeah, he's turns one in a couple of days and, oh my God, what a blessing.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:59:57):
But you remind me like, you know, her husband's in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:01):
Uh, he's going, he's almost done with drug court.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:05):
Um, and, and she is,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:09):
you know, I don't think my daughter Lola is an addict, but she could be, I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:12):
That might come up later in life.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:14):
Like her mom and her dad were so, or are, were, were whatever.

Rachel Casey (01:00:17):
And all those tools too.

Rachel Casey (01:00:20):
I think you said about,

Rachel Casey (01:00:21):
I don't know if she was the one that's going in Allen on,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:23):
but that's my wife,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:25):
Jennifer.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:26):
But she has those tools from being at meetings for years and years, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:32):
And, but I just, you know, it just reminds me, I need to like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:37):
identify that with them that I really praise them for like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:40):
this is a really hard chapter in raising a kid is that first year,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:43):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:44):
it's,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:45):
It's so hard.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:45):
And so is the second.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:46):
And so is the third.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:47):
And so is the fourth.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:49):
They all have their chapter, their things.

Rachel Casey (01:00:51):
But, you know, I will tell you that I've never regretted being sober, even for his worst meltdown.

Rachel Casey (01:00:58):
Like, realizing how un-present I was.

Rachel Casey (01:01:02):
Like, you couldn't have told me that until I got sober.

Rachel Casey (01:01:05):
I would have argued...

Rachel Casey (01:01:08):
you know, again, I'm doing it this, this, this, this, like I couldn't, I can't do the crime, whatever.

Rachel Casey (01:01:14):
There's never a moment I would rather be drinking.

Rachel Casey (01:01:21):
And this is coming from someone who thought drinking was everything.

Rachel Casey (01:01:26):
It was my, we almost named him Jameson because that's what we loved was Jameson.

Rachel Casey (01:01:31):
And we were like, that's how he got here.

Rachel Casey (01:01:33):
That's what he should be named.

Rachel Casey (01:01:34):
And, um,

Rachel Casey (01:01:36):
yeah i'm glad you guys didn't do that and i still love the name jameson uh but i'm

Rachel Casey (01:01:42):
really glad that that's not when he asks us like why did you name me it's not like

Rachel Casey (01:01:48):
well honey we love jameson basically more than you so we named you like uh and

Rachel Casey (01:01:55):
again that's not our story today and um but you it takes a minute to step away

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:01):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:02):
Oh, definitely.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:03):
Okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:03):
I'm going to try to wrap this up a little bit.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:05):
Cause I'm going to, it's so easy for me to, you guys are awesome to talk with.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:10):
It's like, we're just bantering.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:11):
Oh, okay.

Rachel Casey (01:02:13):
And that's why we made the podcast.

Rachel Casey (01:02:14):
Cause we hadn't heard a podcast that was just kind of fun,

Rachel Casey (01:02:18):
formal,

Rachel Casey (01:02:18):
like you said with the books and the memoirs,

Rachel Casey (01:02:21):
you know,

Rachel Casey (01:02:21):
there's gotta be a different angle and this is our different angle.

Rachel Casey (01:02:25):
We want to have fun.

Rachel Casey (01:02:26):
We just want to banter.

Rachel Casey (01:02:28):
I love that.

Rachel Casey (01:02:29):
It's easy going.

Rachel Casey (01:02:30):
But yeah, bring us home.

Rachel Casey (01:02:31):
And I will be putting everything in the show notes.

Rachel Casey (01:02:33):
I have the Facebook, the Instagram, but also more importantly, your website with links to your book.

Rachel Casey (01:02:39):
Yeah, there it is.

Rachel Casey (01:02:41):
There we go.

Rachel Casey (01:02:42):
It's a beautiful cover too.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:43):
So the name of the book, Hide and Seek, A Dad's Journey from Soulless Addiction to Soul Custody.

Rachel Casey (01:02:50):
Yes.

Rachel Casey (01:02:50):
I love that.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:53):
Okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:55):
Played music for years.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:56):
Got a guitar in the Punk Rock Museum.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:58):
And then the kids out on their own.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:01):
What do I do to give back now?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:03):
I've written the book.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:04):
It's published.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:06):
I started listening to this chill music.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:07):
It's like, well, that makes me feel calm.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:10):
I'm a tense addict.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:12):
I'm a tense person even in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:15):
And so I was like, yeah, I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:18):
So I started praying about it.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:19):
And then I get a call from a friend who has known me from the punk rock days in Vegas.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:24):
And she's like, hey, I'm going to open a treatment center in Nashville.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:28):
And I was like, oh, good for you.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:29):
That's way cool.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:30):
You know, she's like, I've been doing treatment centers and I got this opportunity.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:35):
I got this funding.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:36):
Everything's falling into place.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:38):
But I want there to be a music program.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:40):
It's Nashville, for God's sake.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:42):
And I'm like, well, you know, I'm I'm I'm open to that.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:47):
and I don't know how I'll do it though.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:49):
So I started reading about like, okay, what would I do?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:52):
I started reading like, cause I didn't do a treatment center.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:55):
So I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:55):
I don't have that experience, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:57):
And I'm like, well, what could I even do in a treatment center?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:00):
And I start hearing about, uh, you know, like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:03):
people relaxing for an hour and listening to music and the music like you know

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:08):
certain songs under certain memories and you know we have to appeal to all the

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:13):
different styles of music and we have to be careful of certain things that are

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:16):
triggering but we you know and it's like well like that's second nature to me like

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:22):
music has always been what kept me alive it's like i

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:26):
Those dark times where I could change the darkness within myself,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:33):
within my brain,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:35):
by listening to something that would make me feel light,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:38):
or I could humble myself by listening to something that would take me down.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:42):
It always had that power.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:45):
So I'm like, well, this seems like kind of second nature.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:47):
Maybe I can put something together like this.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:49):
So I started taking some college courses and I come across sound healing and and I

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:59):
and I see that there the neuroscience now proves what I've always known,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:05):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:06):
that music has this ability.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:07):
It changes the brain functions, you know, and.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:10):
And so the neuroscience now,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:12):
which is only proven in the last like 15,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:15):
20 years tops,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:17):
it shows that certain frequencies affect the brain in certain ways.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:20):
And then I came across this 528 hertz sulfageal frequencies.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:27):
And these are the there's like a universal tuning for instruments nowadays.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:34):
That's 440 hertz.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:36):
That's what the note A is on.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:39):
And

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:40):
In the 30s, they changed that.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:41):
And there's all these conspiracy theories of they changed it because it doesn't

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:45):
really work with the body.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:47):
And so maybe it's adding to the unhealthiness of society.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:52):
But they found Gregorian chants and Tibetan monks

Paul Summers Jr. (01:05:59):
We're singing in this frequency range of 444 hertz.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:05):
It's kind of complicated.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:06):
And yeah,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:10):
like these chants were in this key that was it was pleasing to some people called

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:15):
the love frequency.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:17):
It just lines up with the universe and the earth and the planet and the vibrations.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:22):
uh more more accurate like more better more better i don't have the word easier way

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:28):
yeah like it's yeah like it's more it's more nature based whereas this this other

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:34):
tuning that they that you know some agency decided we're going to make it universal

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:39):
and a lot a lot of uh there's some european like orchestras they're like no we want

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:43):
to use the old tuning

Rachel Casey (01:06:45):
It's the authentic version.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:47):
It's more authentic.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:48):
It's more in line with the planet, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:50):
And, and so I'm like, well, this sounds really cool.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:53):
And I keep reading and then it says effects on alcoholics and withdrawals.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:58):
I'm like, what?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:00):
And it's, it, it's been proven to ease anxiety and ease withdrawal symptoms.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:05):
And I'm like, oh my God, this is, this is what I need to do.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:09):
So I got certified as a sound healer.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:10):
Um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:12):
certain sound healing is different from music therapy.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:15):
Music therapy is four years of college.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:17):
Um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:18):
it's what a lot of people do when they go into hospitals and some of them use these

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:21):
frequencies as well.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:23):
I just clarify that,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:24):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:25):
I have to make a disclaimer statement before each sound healing like this isn't,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:29):
I just do.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:29):
And that's fair.

Rachel Casey (01:07:31):
Um, you know, we've gone to sound baths and stuff like that.

Rachel Casey (01:07:34):
So, I mean, I think they say the same thing, especially like even in meditation or yoga places.

Rachel Casey (01:07:38):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:07:38):
I've done a lot.

Rachel Casey (01:07:39):
Uh,

Rachel Casey (01:07:40):
Not lots, quite a few, but the one in Sedona was next level sound bath.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:45):
That sounds so nice.

Rachel Casey (01:07:47):
But yeah, anyways, yeah, go ahead.

Rachel Casey (01:07:49):
So it's clarified it's different than the four-year way.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:53):
Yes, and so I got certified, and I started just focusing on this 528 hertz.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:59):
Well, how can I do that?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:00):
I'm a guitar player.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:03):
How can I create these soundscapes?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:06):
um you know and what i found is if if you tune the guitar a certain way and you

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:11):
play in a certain key um you are using those direct frequencies and so i started

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:18):
doing that i started creating what i call songscapes because i'm a songwriter so

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:22):
they're there and i started using loops and layers uh

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:28):
I have a lot of effects and a lot of loops.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:30):
I started there and, you know, there's like, I don't even know if this is really doing anything.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:35):
I started like

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:36):
doing yoga, sorry, playing with a yoga instructor, this guy, Adam Latham.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:42):
And, you know, it was so nice of him to like, yeah, sure, sure.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:46):
Come on down and, you know, do this with me.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:48):
And then the,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:48):
but the feedback we were getting was like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:50):
oh my God,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:50):
I've never like had that much of a release in a yoga situation.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:55):
I'm like, okay, so there's something to these frequencies.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:58):
And then I got ahold of Breezy at Camp Soberfest.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:01):
I'm like, hey, this is this thing I'm doing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:03):
And she's like, oh my God, that sounds amazing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:05):
Yeah, come on down.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:07):
You know, we'll put you up and everything.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:09):
And and and I'm just like, all right.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:11):
You know, and so we went and did this.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:14):
So, you know, the sun sets.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:17):
I'm painting a picture.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:20):
You know, we're right next to a lake.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:22):
It's this grass, you know, little grass knoll, basically.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:27):
But there's 100 people.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:29):
And I was like, I thought maybe like 10 would show up.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:32):
I didn't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:33):
Like, this is all new to me.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:34):
And like you said, you've been to a lot of these.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:36):
I hadn't even been to one at this point yet.

Rachel Casey (01:09:38):
I don't even think they were certified, though.

Rachel Casey (01:09:40):
Like,

Rachel Casey (01:09:40):
I think that they're just meditation teachers that do like the sound bowl and had practice,

Rachel Casey (01:09:44):
but I don't.

Rachel Casey (01:09:45):
Maybe I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:47):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:09:47):
Maybe some, some are, some are more is like where they do yoga Nidra with the sound bath and right.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:56):
And so here's a hundred, a hundred plus people laying out.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:59):
Sun goes down.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:00):
I mean, I can't see any of them.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:01):
I don't know what they're doing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:02):
I have no idea.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:02):
And I just start playing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:04):
People come up to me afterwards and they're like, you know, they,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:07):
had visions they you know and it's just like oh god's you know my higher power i

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:13):
call god uh is interchangeable is taking me the right way like this is this is what

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:21):
i should be doing so

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:23):
that was more of a confirmation of, okay, keep doing this.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:26):
And so I've,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:27):
what I've done from here is I've started taking courses with sound healers that put

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:33):
on courses.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:34):
There's one right now, Bodhi Starwater is his name, and he's been doing sound healing for 30 years.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:39):
And I, and I shared with him in class what I'm doing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:42):
And he's like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:43):
He's like, wow, he's he's like, there's very few of you doing this kind of thing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:47):
And I told him, well, it has the reason I'm doing it is it's my way of giving back.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:51):
I have the memoir and I now I'm doing sound healing,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:54):
which I believe is my gift to share these songscapes with people who are in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:00):
And he's like, I'm going to take private lessons with him next.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:04):
But but so he's introduced.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:06):
Let me just do something real quick here.

Rachel Casey (01:11:09):
I mean, God reveals so much.

Rachel Casey (01:11:11):
I think like,

Rachel Casey (01:11:11):
that's what they say,

Rachel Casey (01:11:12):
you know,

Rachel Casey (01:11:13):
on the last more is going to be revealed and you listen to it and you just keep

Rachel Casey (01:11:17):
following and trusting.

Rachel Casey (01:11:18):
You got to trust the, it doesn't trust.

Rachel Casey (01:11:21):
Take the phone call.

Rachel Casey (01:11:22):
You don't,

Rachel Casey (01:11:22):
and you're,

Rachel Casey (01:11:23):
and it's accepting without expecting,

Rachel Casey (01:11:26):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:27):
here,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:28):
just listen to this for a second.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:34):
Yeah, I can hear like, these are called Koshy chimes and,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:40):
And it's like somebody used those at a sound healing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:11:44):
And I was like, oh, my God, that made me feel so.

Colin Casey (01:11:47):
Yeah, I can feel that.

Colin Casey (01:11:49):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:11:49):
I was like, that sounds.

Rachel Casey (01:11:50):
I was going to.

Rachel Casey (01:11:52):
Do you record it on mic, too?

Rachel Casey (01:11:54):
And like go the audition way or do you try to stay live?

Rachel Casey (01:11:58):
Like I hear.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:00):
I have some.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:02):
I have a friend named Kevin Anderson.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:06):
He goes by Kayo.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:07):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:10):
He does drumming, like with a djembe.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:14):
That stuff I've recorded, these I'll walk around the room with.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:17):
So, you know, to have this sound like over you is, it's just so pleasing, you know.

Rachel Casey (01:12:23):
I was like, in person, it probably is amazing.

Rachel Casey (01:12:24):
I mean, it sounds pretty clear over the audio as well.

Rachel Casey (01:12:27):
I felt it because I literally got a vibration.

Rachel Casey (01:12:29):
But I was just curious on what if you, if it's recorded.

Rachel Casey (01:12:36):
Because sometimes, even though it's crisp audio, still, it's not, in person is just different.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:43):
It is.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:44):
So I don't do that with loops.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:45):
I do some beats with the loops that are prerecorded.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:51):
But with something like that,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:53):
I've so I'm just I'm incorporating different elements into the sound healing.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:56):
So now it's it's just I did I did one a week ago and.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:05):
Just the feedback is is like it's doing what it's supposed to be doing,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:10):
which is healing,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:11):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:11):
so anyway,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:12):
that's so that's what I do now.

Colin Casey (01:13:14):
that's so awesome that you were able to channel your first love of music and

Colin Casey (01:13:19):
playing music into this new,

Colin Casey (01:13:22):
you know,

Colin Casey (01:13:23):
new Avenue or new way that you never,

Colin Casey (01:13:26):
you know,

Colin Casey (01:13:26):
thought possible.

Colin Casey (01:13:27):
And then that makes it fun for you because you're now learning this new musical method.

Colin Casey (01:13:32):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (01:13:33):
And that's been in your heart forever.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:36):
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:37):
It's awakened so much creativity and it's like, how blessed am I to be, you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:43):
An aging man, you know, and elderly and and getting to like be creative.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:50):
Oh, my gosh.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:50):
Like, it's just the blessings.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:53):
They keep coming in recovery.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:13:54):
So couldn't do without being clean, you know, without being sober.

Rachel Casey (01:13:58):
And maybe that gives you a little hope because I think you've spoke to the parenting.

Rachel Casey (01:14:04):
It's busy for a while,

Rachel Casey (01:14:06):
but they do grow up and you just got to keep staying sober because you never know

Rachel Casey (01:14:13):
when an opportunity will present itself.

Rachel Casey (01:14:15):
And maybe one day you will get to run like a sober tennis tournament.

Rachel Casey (01:14:21):
But right now it is very busy, but this is our outlet.

Rachel Casey (01:14:25):
And we're just grateful to have people like you reach out to us and we're able to say,

Rachel Casey (01:14:29):
hey,

Rachel Casey (01:14:30):
let's because this is kind of like a meeting for us,

Rachel Casey (01:14:34):
too.

Rachel Casey (01:14:34):
And it helps share the word from lots of different perspectives.

Rachel Casey (01:14:38):
And I hope there's links on your website to the sound healing and anything you have upcoming,

Rachel Casey (01:14:45):
because it's cool to share.

Colin Casey (01:14:48):
yeah anything else you want to share let us know anything else you want any closing

Paul Summers Jr. (01:14:53):
uh yeah there is maybe um well i i what i want to say is early in this podcast you

Paul Summers Jr. (01:14:59):
mentioned um you know attraction rather than promotion and i mean it's it that's

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:05):
the struggle i've had with the book i don't want to do a bunch of like buy my book

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:11):
you know

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:12):
Like I wouldn't buy somebody's book who does that.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:14):
You know, when I was using, I would be like, Oh my God, here's another, you know, charlatan or whatever.

Rachel Casey (01:15:20):
Yeah, no, I understand.

Rachel Casey (01:15:22):
And that's what we do with the podcast.

Rachel Casey (01:15:23):
We're like, listen, but if you hate it, turn it off.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:26):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:27):
It's fine.

Rachel Casey (01:15:28):
It's not yours.

Rachel Casey (01:15:29):
It's fine.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:30):
I'm just addressing the fact that like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:32):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:33):
someone like me and I can tell people like you guys,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:36):
it's like you wanted to,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:38):
to have this like organic,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:40):
um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:41):
just like a natural, it's natural.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:44):
Like you're just doing what you do naturally instead of like blaring,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:48):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:49):
megaphones in people's faces and saying,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:51):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:51):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:52):
come,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:52):
come see us.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:53):
It's like the hard thing for me and maybe for you guys is like, well, that means I just,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:59):
need to learn more patience and,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:01):
and trust and faith that it's just gonna,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:03):
it's gonna get into the hands that needs to get in it.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:05):
Cause I wanted to get into so many people,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:07):
the book,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:07):
especially,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:08):
um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:09):
and even now sound healing,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:10):
um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:12):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:12):
into so many people's hands,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:13):
but I got to just like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:14):
let go and let God,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:15):
like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:15):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:16):
just like God's putting it places,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:18):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:18):
on this podcast.

Rachel Casey (01:16:22):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:16:22):
And they go on other podcasts on other sobriety ones.

Rachel Casey (01:16:26):
I was going to say like,

Rachel Casey (01:16:27):
and that's the people who are listening who need the book because I tuned into a

Rachel Casey (01:16:33):
few podcasts before.

Rachel Casey (01:16:34):
Again, I got sober because.

Rachel Casey (01:16:37):
It's like, I want to hear about it.

Rachel Casey (01:16:40):
And today you've shared a lot, a lot of hope.

Rachel Casey (01:16:43):
And I've already ordered the book on Amazon.

Rachel Casey (01:16:47):
So because I want to read, I wish I would have had it beforehand.

Rachel Casey (01:16:51):
And again, life is just very busy with a five year old.

Rachel Casey (01:16:55):
And we're just grateful that we get to find time and do things.

Rachel Casey (01:16:59):
this podcast because it's,

Rachel Casey (01:17:02):
it's very healing and we're connecting with people that we would have never

Rachel Casey (01:17:05):
connected with.

Rachel Casey (01:17:06):
We would have never met you had we not made,

Rachel Casey (01:17:08):
well,

Rachel Casey (01:17:08):
maybe we would have,

Rachel Casey (01:17:09):
who knows,

Rachel Casey (01:17:09):
but you know,

Rachel Casey (01:17:12):
we're just,

Rachel Casey (01:17:12):
we're thankful you came on the show.

Rachel Casey (01:17:13):
We're thankful you shared some of your memoir and like who you are,

Rachel Casey (01:17:18):
who's the,

Rachel Casey (01:17:19):
knowing the author is always a little cool.

Colin Casey (01:17:20):
And what you're doing now.

Colin Casey (01:17:22):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:17:23):
And the next steps and maybe being able to one day meet in person at

Rachel Casey (01:17:28):
I really want to check out camp.

Colin Casey (01:17:29):
So yeah, I'm a full, I'm excited to see your guitar in Vegas.

Rachel Casey (01:17:33):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:34):
Oh, cool.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:34):
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:35):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (01:17:35):
And we'll be having that on the books for sure.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:37):
And I'll put it out there on the podcast that like next year.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:41):
So 2025, definitely like after March, I'm, I'm so open to traveling, doing the sound healing, you know?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:50):
So if you,

Rachel Casey (01:17:52):
Yeah, if you come to Dallas, I was like, if anyone in Dallas was... Yeah, or anywhere along the way.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:56):
Yeah, any venue.

Rachel Casey (01:18:00):
Maybe we'll connect and maybe if we get listeners that want to do that,

Rachel Casey (01:18:04):
maybe we could put an event together or something like that,

Rachel Casey (01:18:07):
you know,

Rachel Casey (01:18:08):
but...

Rachel Casey (01:18:09):
We don't really know who listens.

Rachel Casey (01:18:11):
I know my mom does, but even if it's just her, that's fine.

Rachel Casey (01:18:18):
We try not to ask too much.

Rachel Casey (01:18:19):
Like I said, it's the same as what you said.

Rachel Casey (01:18:24):
We're not trying to promote, but also we're wanting to get it to the ears of people that...

Rachel Casey (01:18:30):
want to listen or, or need a different kind of banter.

Colin Casey (01:18:33):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (01:18:34):
I'm growing and building a base takes time.

Colin Casey (01:18:36):
And we're also practicing because neither one of us are professional speakers or

Colin Casey (01:18:41):
podcasters before we got into this.

Colin Casey (01:18:43):
Yeah.

Colin Casey (01:18:43):
So it's a fun growing experience.

Rachel Casey (01:18:46):
It's a lot of fun.

Rachel Casey (01:18:47):
So thank you again for coming on the show.

Rachel Casey (01:18:51):
So links are in the bio, go order the book.

Rachel Casey (01:18:54):
You can get it right before Christmas.

Rachel Casey (01:18:55):
I'm, I'm sure with Amazon, cause I think ours is getting delivered tomorrow.

Rachel Casey (01:18:58):
So yeah,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:18:59):
Oh, awesome.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:00):
Amazon.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:02):
I do have a special up.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:03):
I don't know if, if how soon are you, how soon is this going live?

Rachel Casey (01:19:07):
I am going to hope.

Rachel Casey (01:19:08):
I mean, next week for sure.

Rachel Casey (01:19:09):
I just don't know if it'll be Tuesday or Wednesday or maybe if I can get tomorrow's

Rachel Casey (01:19:15):
out to tomorrow or yesterday's out tomorrow,

Rachel Casey (01:19:18):
then this will probably be Monday or Tuesday.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:21):
I was just going to say that right now I'm doing a special too,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:25):
where if you order it through my website,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:28):
like not on Amazon,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:29):
but through,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:30):
it's great that people ordered on Amazon because that sort of validates that I'm

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:35):
selling books,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:35):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:36):
or that books are selling.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:37):
I don't know.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:38):
I tried to keep the I'm out of it, but I keep forgetting.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:40):
Uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:42):
I'm doing a,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:43):
a,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:44):
uh,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:44):
the book,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:45):
an autograph,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:45):
you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:45):
a personalized copy of the book,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:47):
a bookmark and,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:49):
um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:49):
a 30 minute,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:50):
um,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:51):
recovery check-in,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:52):
whether you're an addict or you're not an addict,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:54):
just like,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:54):
Oh,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:54):
cool.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:55):
Talk to somebody that has some time and some experience being on both sides of like

Paul Summers Jr. (01:20:01):
loving someone who's addicted and being that person addicted and

Rachel Casey (01:20:04):
uh and and so good thing i'll be able to pull that for instagram for you too and uh

Rachel Casey (01:20:09):
we can save that way yeah we can promote for sure and um especially during the

Rachel Casey (01:20:15):
holidays at least i can leave a five-star review as a verified customer because

Rachel Casey (01:20:19):
that's always nice to read like when i go to amazon yeah i see five you know

Rachel Casey (01:20:25):
verified customer and it's

Rachel Casey (01:20:28):
I can at least help in that since I didn't go through your website, but I did go through Amazon.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:20:33):
No, it's, and it is a big deal.

Rachel Casey (01:20:35):
Well, thank you for listening to Sower Bandard.

Rachel Casey (01:20:36):
Thank you for joining us.

Rachel Casey (01:20:37):
Thank you so much.

Rachel Casey (01:20:39):
Paul Summers Jr.

Rachel Casey (01:20:40):
If you're looking it up again, just go to the show notes, press the link.

Rachel Casey (01:20:43):
It's much easier.

Rachel Casey (01:20:44):
I make it very easy.

Rachel Casey (01:20:46):
Or at least not for Colin, but for everyone else.

Rachel Casey (01:20:50):
I try to make life a little easier.