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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who

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have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they

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got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.

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How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,

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and most importantly, find joy.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.

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New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.

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Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.

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You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.

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Welcome back to live free ride free today.

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I've got JD Barker, he
is a best selling author.

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He writes thrillers suspense
with a twist of the supernatural.

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He has had endorsements from
no less than Stephen King.

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And such like royalty.

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He's also autistic.

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In terms of living a self actualised
life, from where he began In his American

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childhood to where he is now, as many
people know who listen to this podcast,

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autism, A U T I S M, auto Greek word for
the self, this can often mean difficulty

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with a relationship with the exterior
world, let's say, so it's intriguing

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to me that we're talking today with
a storyteller, a communicator with

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a condition that is often perceived
As not being massively conducive

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to storytelling and communication.

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Yet, here he is, and he's
doing extremely well at it.

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His books are available on Amazon.

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You'll If you type him in, you're
going to see a plethora of them.

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With excellent reviews, if you're a
thriller reader, you're going to want to

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read him just for the sake of his books.

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But let's dive into the world of J.

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D.

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Barker.

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J.

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D.,

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thanks so much for coming on.

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Please give us a little bit of
an idea about who you are and

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how you got to where you are.

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JD Barker: Well, thanks for having me.

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I, I, honestly, that's the first
time I've ever heard that the, you

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know, the Greek root of the word.

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And all of a sudden it makes sense.

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I've never, never actually
thought about it before.

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Yeah, so I'm one of those,
I was born in the 70s.

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You know, so back then they didn't
diagnose this sort of thing.

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You were just kind of the weird kid
they pushed off into the corner.

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You're kind of shunned by, you
know, your peers, by adults.

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And I just, I went through life that way.

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I had no idea, you know, I wouldn't
say something was wrong with me.

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I knew I was different.

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I was reading by a very early age.

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I was reading when I was around three
years old by the time I got into

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kindergarten, I read like all the Hardy
boys and Nancy Drew mysteries and moved

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on to Charles Dickens and a bunch of
the classics you know, always very

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good in, in school always terrible.

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When it came to social situations,
I couldn't relate to other people.

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You know, and at first I thought
it was just because I was doing

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things that the other kids weren't.

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You know, I was reading.

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At, at, at a young age.

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Other kids weren't doing that yet.

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I just, I didn't really relate to 'em.

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I actually related to adults I think
a lot better than I did with kids.

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Mm-hmm . But, you know, I went, I
went through school, I just kind

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of fumbled my way through it.

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Got into college.

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Ended up getting a couple
of different degrees.

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I got one into.

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business, another one in finance.

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I got an IT degree.

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I got halfway through a
psychology degree and found myself

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working in the corporate world.

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The last real job I had, I was a chief
compliance officer at a brokerage firm,

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which is as horrible as it sounds.

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It's very similar to being like
internal affairs at a police department.

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You have to monitor all the
activity taking place at a brokerage

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firm, make sure that nobody is
breaking any rules or regulations,

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compare every transaction against.

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a bunch of, you know, documented rules and
basically look for any kind of anomaly.

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So problem solving, so
I was very good at that.

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I ended up writing computer
software to process a lot of

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it, to deal with a lot of it.

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I did a great job with that portion
of my job but when I actually found a

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problem, I had to leave my office and
I had to go to talk to other people.

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And that's where the real problems
kind of came into play because, you

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know, I would have to basically go to.

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Hey, you made a mistake and
here's why which automatically

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put them on the defensive.

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And then I had to try and
communicate the issue with them

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and try and come to a resolution.

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You know, after a while, someone on

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Rupert Isaacson: the autism spectrum,

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JD Barker: yeah, you know, so
there were a lot of clashes.

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But my boss, you know, to his credit,
he was smart enough to recognize.

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I was very good at, you know, a portion of
my job, not good with the people skills.

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He thought I had anger issues.

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Cause you know, everybody tries
to put this into some type of.

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You know, explanation, put it in a box.

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So he sent me to an
anger management class.

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And I sat down with the therapist
for the initial interview.

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And we got about 20 minutes in and
she stopped me and she said, Have

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you ever been tested for autism?

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Rupert Isaacson: And

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JD Barker: I actually had no idea what
that really was other than that movie.

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How old

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Rupert Isaacson: were you at this point?

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JD Barker: I was 22.

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Okay.

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So, so it was a while ago early 90s.

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You know, so she started to explain
that, you know, well, as we've been

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talking, I've noticed you don't make
any eye contact you tend to, you know,

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stare at this one particular spot on
my wall whenever you're speaking, you

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rub your thumb and your index finger
together whenever you think and she

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just started rattling off these things
that I've done my entire life and never

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really thought twice about and then she
mentioned autism and she spent her daytime

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working with autistic children, which
is why these things jumped out at her.

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Were you shocked?

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Were you

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Rupert Isaacson: insulted?

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Or did you think, ah, well,

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JD Barker: You know, at first I was taken
aback because I didn't know what it was,

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and like I said, the only exposure I ever
had to it was Rain Man, you know, that

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movie with Tom Cruise, which is not a
very good depiction, you know, it's, it's

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nothing like the real, the real thing
but she asked if I'd be open to getting

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tested, and I, I did, and then ultimately
we landed on a diagnosis of Asperger's

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syndrome which in today's world,
you're just on the spectrum somewhere.

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But back in the day,
they had a name for it.

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And from my standpoint, you know,
it gave me a problem with a name

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on it that I could actually solve.

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So at that point I started researching
everything I possibly could.

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I read books, I saw movies,
documentaries, any piece of

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information I could get on it.

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And basically started
trying to tackle this thing.

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And essentially we, we created a list
of things that, you know, problem things

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that I felt were problems in my life.

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You know, like the social
situations, you know, social skills.

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But we also made another list of the
things that I was able to do that other

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people couldn't which, you know, today's
where I, I doubled down on a lot of those

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because I was able to do a lot of things
that, you know, somebody that's quote

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unquote normal, wasn't able to accomplish.

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You know, so I, I spent the last
30 years, you know, basically

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trying to dig out of that.

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that whole.

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You know, a lot of these things
I was able to correct or fix.

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She taught me how to make eye
contact in a conversation.

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You know, the funny thing is that
when I make eye contact, I can't pay

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attention because I'm literally telling
myself in my head, keep eye contact,

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keep eye contact, keep eye contact.

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It feels weird to me.

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It feels awkward.

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I don't want to do it.

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So I forced myself to do it and oddly,
like my wife knows, you know, we've

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been married for over 10 years now.

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She knows that if I don't look her in the
eye, that I'm actually paying attention.

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You know, so like,
she's picked up on that.

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She picked up on that very early on.

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But, you know, I basically
started to work through as many

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of these, these things as I could.

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I mean, the social thing,
that's never gone away.

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I don't think it ever will.

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But I've learned to mimic my
way through social situations.

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And, and oddly like that, that kind
of tied back to the writing career.

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Cause initially I was working
on, projects I was working as a

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book doctor and a ghost writer
basically working with other people.

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And I would mimic other authors

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Rupert Isaacson: That's that's a big
jump from being a corporate guy, you know

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telling people that they're messing up.

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It come it comes back There's
a jump there in the story

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JD Barker: Yeah, no, it comes back to me
reading at such an early age, you know,

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books were basically my safe place, you
know, when I wanted to get away from

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the real world, I'd open up the cover
of a book and it just evolved, you know,

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from, you know, reading other people's
stories to wanting to create my own.

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I had a sister who was 15 months
younger than me so I used to write

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stories up, I would staple them
together and I created a little library

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in my room and she would check those
stories out, I'd charge her late fees.

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fees.

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You know, like this, this, this
went way back to, you know,

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probably five, six, seven years old.

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But that's, that's basically
where, where it started.

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But I had been told that in
an early, early age, you can't

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make a living as a writer.

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You know, it's too, too
difficult a profession.

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You have to get a real job.

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Which is how I ended up
in the corporate world.

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But I would come home at
night during all that time.

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And I would, I would write,
like that was how I stayed sane.

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You always

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Rupert Isaacson: actually
wanted to be a writer.

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JD Barker: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I've, I've always done it.

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So I, I did that for about 20 some years.

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You know, basically
the two different jobs.

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And over that time I had six different
books that hit the New York Times

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bestseller list that I had written,
but they all came out with other

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people's names on the covers.

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Because they were, they were ghostwritten.

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That gets old.

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After a while, you know, somebody
else basically taking credit

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for teaches you the craft.

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It did, you know, and I wrote a lot
of memoirs and I think that's what

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really did it for me because I had to
get into the head of another person.

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I had to speak in their voice
and tell a story from, you know,

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somebody else's perspective.

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And I think that's what really
taught me how to create characters

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and be able to, you know, dig into
fiction at the level that I did.

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Ultimately when that six book
hit, my wife pulled me aside.

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She said, listen, I know you hate your
day job cause I hated the corporate

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thing but I was kind of trapped.

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I had a big salary.

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We had a big house.

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We had cars, we had a boat.

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We couldn't just walk away
from it cause it was expensive.

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So she came up with this crazy plan.

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We sold everything that we owned.

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We bought a tiny little duplex in
Pittsburgh you know, which is a

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steel town in the middle of the U S.

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I bought a duplex, rented
out one side to some tenants.

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We lived in the other side, got our
expenses down to next to nothing.

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And I basically, we lived off a
savings long enough for me to write a

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book on my own and get it out there.

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And luckily it just, everything took off.

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The first book sold really well.

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The second one sold even better.

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Some TV shows and movies came along.

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And I've been on that
rollercoaster ever since.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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So, people will obviously want to
know what were those books you helped

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ghost ride that got onto the New York
times bestsellers and what were these?

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Books that you then got your not
just became your own bestsellers,

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but TV and film and so on.

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But just before we go into that,
let me just backtrack with you.

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As a child, you say books
were your safe place.

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Did you feel unsafe in the world?

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JD Barker: You know, I don't know that
it was unsafe, I didn't, you know, in

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the 70s, like, we didn't even think that
way, like, cars didn't have seatbelts,

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you know, like, we, we would jump, we
would jump our bike off the, you know,

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off a ramp and go 20 feet across the,
you know, the road, like, we, we didn't

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think about safety back then it just,
you know, like, I would feel like certain

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situations, I just didn't understand them.

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You know, like kids would be
playing, I would try to fit in.

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It always felt like I was imitating
those actions which wasn't fun.

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And I would see these other kids
who looked like they actually

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were having legitimate fun.

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And I didn't understand why it was
fun for them and not fun for me.

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And at a young age, you know,
that gets very frustrating.

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And at some point I would break off and
I would grab a book and that would, that

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would call, that would call me back down.

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Rupert Isaacson: So it wasn't
so much about being bullied

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or picked on or singled out.

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It was more just feeling
why can't I fit in?

00:10:33.989 --> 00:10:36.369
JD Barker: Yeah, I mean that kind
of stuff was happening too, but you

00:10:36.369 --> 00:10:39.989
know again in the 70s everybody did
it, you know I picked on other kids

00:10:39.989 --> 00:10:43.279
they picked on other kids, you know
We'd lock each other in lockers.

00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.839
Like it was just it was a very
different time than it is today

00:10:46.069 --> 00:10:47.359
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
you're absolutely right.

00:10:47.409 --> 00:10:53.789
I remember it Okay, so, you know in some
ways I'm quite similar I also used to

00:10:53.789 --> 00:10:59.634
use books as a safe place when I was
at school why for you you said you read

00:10:59.634 --> 00:11:05.134
the Nancy Drew and those mysteries very,
very early, like at three, why mysteries?

00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:11.609
JD Barker: You know, I, I think it was
really just because that's what was on at

00:11:11.609 --> 00:11:15.369
hand and my mom owned an antique store and
we used to go to a lot of garage sales or

00:11:15.369 --> 00:11:19.929
yard sales and she would literally pick
up books by the box, you know, like 2 for,

00:11:19.949 --> 00:11:21.789
you know, 50 books to stuffed in a box.

00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:25.169
And initially, you know, I think 1
of those boxes had a mix of those

00:11:25.169 --> 00:11:26.849
Hardy boys and Nancy Drew's in there.

00:11:27.619 --> 00:11:29.479
So I just, I really fell in love with it.

00:11:29.499 --> 00:11:31.749
Mysteries like, I love
the puzzle aspect of it.

00:11:31.769 --> 00:11:33.149
So I think that might
have been part of it.

00:11:33.619 --> 00:11:36.589
But in general, like, you know, in
today's world, I read across the board.

00:11:36.589 --> 00:11:39.179
I'll read a romance novel,
I'll read sci fi, westerns.

00:11:39.369 --> 00:11:42.389
I don't really care what the story is
about as long as it's a good story.

00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:43.039
Rupert Isaacson: Mm hmm,

00:11:43.089 --> 00:11:43.409
JD Barker: mm hmm.

00:11:43.739 --> 00:11:46.029
And then you said you got
into the classics at how old?

00:11:46.529 --> 00:11:48.279
That was when I got into
kindergarten, so five,

00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:48.949
Rupert Isaacson: six years old.

00:11:49.119 --> 00:11:52.479
You were reading Dickens, Victorian
English, at five or six years old.

00:11:52.949 --> 00:11:56.379
JD Barker: Yeah, I mean, to this
day, Great Expectations is still my

00:11:56.379 --> 00:11:59.929
favorite book to the point where I
actually wrote a retelling of it a

00:11:59.939 --> 00:12:02.699
few years back called She Has a Broken
Thing Where Her Heart Should Be.

00:12:03.599 --> 00:12:07.459
And it's my wife's favorite book,
and I travel all over the world at

00:12:07.459 --> 00:12:09.849
this point, and it's the one book
people put in front of me and tell me

00:12:09.849 --> 00:12:11.269
it's their favorite everywhere I go.

00:12:11.959 --> 00:12:12.599
Oh, interesting.

00:12:12.629 --> 00:12:12.669
And

00:12:12.889 --> 00:12:17.334
Rupert Isaacson: why do you think that
Victorian classics Got you at that age.

00:12:17.804 --> 00:12:22.484
And how did you deal with the
fact that that English was so far

00:12:22.484 --> 00:12:25.444
from American vernacular English
that you'd have had around you?

00:12:25.794 --> 00:12:28.844
Did you, you, you instinctively
understood it or you actually had

00:12:28.844 --> 00:12:29.974
to have someone help you with it?

00:12:31.214 --> 00:12:32.974
JD Barker: No, I, I got
through it pretty well.

00:12:33.134 --> 00:12:35.434
I think, you know, because I always
saw books as being in another

00:12:35.434 --> 00:12:38.384
place, almost like this magical
realm that I could kind of go into.

00:12:38.784 --> 00:12:40.944
So the fact that, you know,
English was different.

00:12:40.989 --> 00:12:43.179
You know, to me, it just kind of
fit, you know, it was, it was no

00:12:43.179 --> 00:12:46.959
different than finding a dragon in
a story or, you know, a warlock or,

00:12:46.969 --> 00:12:49.879
or something else, you know, it was
just a different way of, of talking.

00:12:50.099 --> 00:12:52.769
I probably didn't understand that,
you know, in some part of the world,

00:12:52.769 --> 00:12:54.189
people actually spoke that way.

00:12:54.479 --> 00:12:57.509
You know, not, not at that age but
in the books, it, it made sense.

00:12:57.719 --> 00:13:00.939
I do remember that when I picked up
great expectations, the first time

00:13:00.979 --> 00:13:04.999
we were at the library and they had a
section of the classics and all the books

00:13:04.999 --> 00:13:06.609
basically had the same kind of cover.

00:13:06.819 --> 00:13:08.989
So they look like they belong
together, like a big set.

00:13:09.374 --> 00:13:12.384
And that's what initially attracted me
to him because, you know, like I had gone

00:13:12.384 --> 00:13:13.724
through the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drews.

00:13:13.734 --> 00:13:16.864
They all had a similar cover, so it
all felt like, you know, this one big

00:13:16.914 --> 00:13:18.664
project, you know, that I had tackled.

00:13:18.964 --> 00:13:21.764
And seeing another possible
project in all of those, you know,

00:13:21.774 --> 00:13:23.554
the classics laid out like that.

00:13:23.794 --> 00:13:27.324
I think that's what initially attracted me
to it, but, you know, Dickens in general,

00:13:27.324 --> 00:13:29.324
like his writing is just fantastic.

00:13:29.424 --> 00:13:30.564
His writing is fantastic.

00:13:30.574 --> 00:13:32.534
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just thinking
back now myself to Dickens.

00:13:32.634 --> 00:13:36.739
But there, you know, there are, what,
what intrigues me is that it's It's

00:13:36.739 --> 00:13:39.629
not just the use of the language,
there's also vocabulary stuff.

00:13:39.629 --> 00:13:43.109
So, you know, for example, if someone
is drinking sack or drinking hock

00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:46.999
or something like that, you, would
you have then gone and figured out

00:13:46.999 --> 00:13:48.289
what sack, what are they drinking?

00:13:48.289 --> 00:13:48.879
What do they mean?

00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:49.989
They're drinking hock, you know?

00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:50.699
No.

00:13:51.459 --> 00:13:53.439
JD Barker: Most of the times when
I ran into something like that, I

00:13:53.439 --> 00:13:55.979
just kept reading through it, you
know, because it was no different

00:13:55.979 --> 00:13:57.339
than somebody making up a word.

00:13:57.349 --> 00:14:00.479
You know, like when I read don't know,
like doing when I got older you know,

00:14:00.479 --> 00:14:03.849
like there's a lot of made up words and
fantasy novels and things like that.

00:14:03.849 --> 00:14:06.519
So like, I think my brain just kind
of tied that all together is just,

00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:08.239
this was just some made up word.

00:14:08.239 --> 00:14:09.829
Like I didn't know that it
was actually a real thing.

00:14:10.249 --> 00:14:10.639
Okay.

00:14:10.929 --> 00:14:11.029
Okay.

00:14:11.149 --> 00:14:11.469
Right.

00:14:11.959 --> 00:14:13.859
Rupert Isaacson: The, the, the,
the, the big picture rather

00:14:13.859 --> 00:14:15.229
than the details effectively.

00:14:15.599 --> 00:14:16.059
Yeah.

00:14:16.379 --> 00:14:19.979
But what is intriguing to me is
that it's to some degree a little

00:14:19.979 --> 00:14:21.579
bit like learning another language.

00:14:21.649 --> 00:14:25.459
And your young brain at that
time, obviously being very

00:14:25.459 --> 00:14:31.219
plastic would have been firing
many, many neurons, I'm thinking.

00:14:31.449 --> 00:14:36.074
You know, dealing with these other
worlds that, As you say, you weren't

00:14:36.074 --> 00:14:38.074
aware were actual worlds at that point.

00:14:38.284 --> 00:14:43.534
So, okay, so then you get into
your early stages of mysteries.

00:14:43.724 --> 00:14:47.314
And of course, a lot of Dickens, they
are actually mysteries, most of them.

00:14:47.584 --> 00:14:51.794
There's usually, you know, a big
puzzle that has to be deciphered.

00:14:51.874 --> 00:14:56.034
And if you boil Dickens down,
it's usually a bit of a suspense

00:14:56.034 --> 00:14:57.794
novel with a romantic twist.

00:14:58.294 --> 00:14:59.064
Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:59.244 --> 00:15:01.244
Then you get into helping people.

00:15:01.604 --> 00:15:03.554
to ghostwrite and write memos.

00:15:03.774 --> 00:15:05.044
How does that happen?

00:15:06.534 --> 00:15:08.744
JD Barker: Well I was in college,
one of my first jobs I worked

00:15:08.744 --> 00:15:12.124
for BMG Distribution, which
was a division of RCA Records.

00:15:12.434 --> 00:15:14.324
And I was essentially
a glorified babysitter.

00:15:14.324 --> 00:15:17.584
So they'd have a recording artist come
into South Florida, I'd have to pick

00:15:17.584 --> 00:15:20.794
him up at the airport, get him to the
radio station for interviews, get him to

00:15:20.794 --> 00:15:24.094
their concert, get him to their hotel,
and get him back on an airplane when

00:15:24.094 --> 00:15:25.444
it was time for them to leave town.

00:15:25.844 --> 00:15:27.504
And this was some very famous people.

00:15:27.524 --> 00:15:31.204
So to really date myself, but we had
people like Tiffany and Debbie Gibson and

00:15:31.204 --> 00:15:36.174
new kids on the block Madonna bunch of
hair bands, poison, Motley Crue, Bon Jovi.

00:15:36.514 --> 00:15:39.574
Yeah, so I realized very quickly,
I was running up a lot of debt, you

00:15:39.574 --> 00:15:40.974
know, going to school is expensive.

00:15:41.224 --> 00:15:44.744
And I had some very famous people in a car
with me sometimes for a week at a time.

00:15:44.744 --> 00:15:45.794
So I would interview them.

00:15:46.094 --> 00:15:48.314
And then I would take those interviews
and I would sell them to a lot of the

00:15:48.314 --> 00:15:53.084
magazines that were around back then,
like 17 and teen people and tiger beat And

00:15:53.314 --> 00:15:56.644
when you work with anybody at newspapers
and magazines, you quickly learn that

00:15:56.644 --> 00:15:59.644
they've got a novel that they've been
working on for the last 10 years, you

00:15:59.644 --> 00:16:00.954
know, it's in a desk drawer somewhere.

00:16:00.954 --> 00:16:02.034
They're almost done.

00:16:02.234 --> 00:16:03.634
It's 400, 000 words.

00:16:03.634 --> 00:16:04.874
It just needs a little something.

00:16:05.134 --> 00:16:07.534
I was very good with grammar
and punctuation and just

00:16:07.544 --> 00:16:08.834
kind of the rules of writing.

00:16:09.084 --> 00:16:11.324
So those people initially would
give me those books to kind of

00:16:11.334 --> 00:16:12.624
go through them and clean it up.

00:16:12.894 --> 00:16:15.504
Then I started offering developmental
suggestions, you know, like

00:16:15.504 --> 00:16:16.794
the story takes off here.

00:16:16.794 --> 00:16:17.764
This part should come out.

00:16:17.784 --> 00:16:19.434
You know, I think your
character would develop me.

00:16:19.444 --> 00:16:20.294
It's a little work here.

00:16:20.594 --> 00:16:23.684
And that basically turned into a,
you know, the side hustle as working

00:16:23.684 --> 00:16:27.694
as a, a ghost writer, a book doctor,
basically helping those people tweak

00:16:27.694 --> 00:16:30.414
their novels and get them to the point
where they were ready for publication.

00:16:30.704 --> 00:16:32.384
Over time, word of that spread yeah.

00:16:32.589 --> 00:16:36.169
And so agents would call me, you know,
or editors would call me, they'd acquire

00:16:36.169 --> 00:16:38.989
a book that they absolutely love,
but they couldn't get it published

00:16:38.989 --> 00:16:41.249
because it needed work and they
couldn't get the original author to

00:16:41.249 --> 00:16:42.709
do it because they were just too new.

00:16:42.709 --> 00:16:45.119
And, you know, if you go to a debut
author and you say, you've got to take

00:16:45.129 --> 00:16:48.259
40, 000 words out of this book, you
know, that's a difficult thing, but

00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:49.999
they would bring me in as a hired gun.

00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:52.799
You know, I had no skin in the
game, so, you know, I would just

00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.789
take their direction and, and they
didn't sugarcoat anything with me.

00:16:55.789 --> 00:16:58.129
And it's funny because in today's
world, you know, I'm a published

00:16:58.129 --> 00:17:00.469
author, you know, if I get a phone
call from my editor, they'll you.

00:17:00.609 --> 00:17:02.969
You know, if they've got a problem
with a book, they'll usually

00:17:02.969 --> 00:17:05.279
tell me two or three things they
absolutely love about the book.

00:17:05.509 --> 00:17:07.949
Then they'll tell me that one thing that
they need me to fix, and then they'll

00:17:07.949 --> 00:17:10.789
finish up that phone call with one or
two more things they love about the book.

00:17:10.809 --> 00:17:13.449
They kind of sandwich it in between
of, you know, the, the bad news

00:17:13.449 --> 00:17:14.569
between a bunch of good news.

00:17:14.829 --> 00:17:16.759
But when you're a hired gun,
they didn't do any of that.

00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:18.989
They, they would just tell me
everything they hated about the book,

00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:20.349
tell me what needed to be fixed.

00:17:20.579 --> 00:17:23.529
And I think that's, I learned a lot
about the writing industry through

00:17:23.529 --> 00:17:26.509
those conversations and what the folks
in New York were really looking for.

00:17:26.869 --> 00:17:27.499
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:17:27.499 --> 00:17:27.569
JD Barker: I

00:17:27.569 --> 00:17:30.009
Rupert Isaacson: think that
if anyone who's listening is.

00:17:30.959 --> 00:17:36.139
Wanting to write and publish a book, the
two things to know are the most important

00:17:36.139 --> 00:17:37.529
thing about a book is its structure.

00:17:37.909 --> 00:17:40.639
The structure's got to be
so good that it's invisible.

00:17:40.939 --> 00:17:41.659
And that's what keeps you going.

00:17:41.659 --> 00:17:42.979
And the other thing is the editing.

00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:48.139
And really the editors should be on the
spine of the book alongside the author

00:17:48.139 --> 00:17:52.479
because I'm a great believer that any
book that I've read that's worth reading,

00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:54.689
it's largely down to the editors.

00:17:55.099 --> 00:17:59.244
But it sounds like you've got a
crash course in Editing effectively.

00:18:00.184 --> 00:18:00.884
JD Barker: Absolutely.

00:18:00.884 --> 00:18:03.694
And I totally agree about books are
made in the editing process, not

00:18:03.694 --> 00:18:05.224
necessarily in the writing process.

00:18:05.934 --> 00:18:06.404
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

00:18:06.864 --> 00:18:07.304
Okay.

00:18:07.304 --> 00:18:08.154
So give.

00:18:08.154 --> 00:18:11.904
A couple of ideas of some of the memoirs
that hit big and other books that hit

00:18:11.904 --> 00:18:13.164
big that you helped to ghost write.

00:18:13.164 --> 00:18:14.214
And then let's go into your own work.

00:18:15.404 --> 00:18:18.194
JD Barker: I wish I could talk about
that, but that, that whole industry,

00:18:18.194 --> 00:18:20.084
like there are NDAs, NDAs for everything.

00:18:20.444 --> 00:18:20.684
Yeah.

00:18:20.684 --> 00:18:23.264
I mean, in today's world, I write
books with James Patterson, like

00:18:23.264 --> 00:18:25.724
he's constantly bugging me, you
know, about the, those titles.

00:18:25.724 --> 00:18:28.394
He wants to know who I worked with in
the past and I can't even tell him.

00:18:28.774 --> 00:18:32.440
There I, I, I wish I could, but
it's just one of those things.

00:18:32.445 --> 00:18:32.629
Okay.

00:18:32.629 --> 00:18:33.034
That reminds me of

00:18:33.034 --> 00:18:34.094
Rupert Isaacson: a very good story.

00:18:34.094 --> 00:18:37.924
Do you, you know, who you, you,  the
famous actor not Christopher Plummer

00:18:37.974 --> 00:18:42.444
gosh, Saruman in Lord of the Rings gosh,
you know who I'm talking about and he

00:18:42.444 --> 00:18:47.434
was in so many horror movies and, um, let
me just find him quickly because it's,

00:18:47.444 --> 00:18:49.314
it's a great story along those lines.

00:18:53.739 --> 00:18:59.129
It's Christopher Lee and Christopher Lee
had been a special ops intelligence dude

00:18:59.139 --> 00:19:04.779
during World War Two, and he was always
being pestered by journalists about this.

00:19:05.219 --> 00:19:06.849
And he has a famous story of.

00:19:07.554 --> 00:19:09.944
One person just wouldn't let go and
wouldn't let go and wouldn't let go and

00:19:09.944 --> 00:19:12.024
so he finally said can you keep a secret?

00:19:12.484 --> 00:19:15.794
To this guy and he goes
yes, yes, so can I?

00:19:16.894 --> 00:19:22.604
And that was the end of the interview So
now I get it Okay, so but nonetheless you

00:19:22.604 --> 00:19:25.204
were brought in You have to sign the NDAs.

00:19:25.214 --> 00:19:28.994
You can't talk about them, but you
learn the craft then you float your

00:19:28.994 --> 00:19:30.684
first book Tell us about that book

00:19:32.104 --> 00:19:34.744
JD Barker: Yeah, so at that point when
I sat down to write it, it was called

00:19:34.744 --> 00:19:37.584
Forsaken I knew I wanted to write a
horror novel because that was always my

00:19:37.584 --> 00:19:41.314
favorite genre to play around in and,
you know, at that point I felt like

00:19:41.314 --> 00:19:44.454
I knew, you know, how to craft a good
book, beginning, middle, and end it's

00:19:44.454 --> 00:19:47.004
funny because you could take any one
of my books and drop them into a three

00:19:47.004 --> 00:19:50.219
act structure they all fit, but I've
never had anything Formal training,

00:19:50.219 --> 00:19:53.129
like my formal training comes from all
the reading that I've done in the past.

00:19:53.129 --> 00:19:53.249
Right.

00:19:53.439 --> 00:19:55.629
That, that structure is
basically ingrained in my head.

00:19:55.629 --> 00:19:58.659
Like I, I know when I take a wrong turn
while I'm writing mm-hmm . You know,

00:19:58.659 --> 00:19:59.829
I know a twist needs to happen here.

00:19:59.829 --> 00:20:01.179
The climax needs to start here.

00:20:01.179 --> 00:20:03.559
Like, it all just feels organic to me.

00:20:03.869 --> 00:20:06.909
So I sat down, I wrote Forsaken
in the book I had to explain

00:20:06.909 --> 00:20:07.954
where the wife buys a journal.

00:20:08.244 --> 00:20:10.924
And just to get the book finished,
I wrote that she walked into Needful

00:20:10.934 --> 00:20:13.924
Things, you know, which is the story
from Stephen King's novel fully

00:20:13.924 --> 00:20:16.344
expecting to have to change that, but
it was just a, you know, something

00:20:16.344 --> 00:20:17.804
I did to get the book down on paper.

00:20:18.024 --> 00:20:20.514
My wife read it and she said,
you know what, before we change

00:20:20.524 --> 00:20:23.024
that, why don't we see if we can
get King's permission to use it?

00:20:23.404 --> 00:20:27.204
And ultimately I was able to do that and
that, that's what launched my, my career.

00:20:27.214 --> 00:20:28.994
You know, the fact that he was
wanting to take that chance.

00:20:29.034 --> 00:20:29.394
How did you

00:20:29.414 --> 00:20:30.434
Rupert Isaacson: contact Stephen King

00:20:30.434 --> 00:20:31.374
JD Barker: to get that permission?

00:20:32.754 --> 00:20:36.104
You know, the story behind it is, I
think, what actually launched the book.

00:20:36.104 --> 00:20:39.274
So, it turns out he's got a house
in Florida that's about 10 minutes

00:20:39.274 --> 00:20:40.374
from where my mother lives.

00:20:40.634 --> 00:20:42.274
So we were, we were down there visiting.

00:20:42.284 --> 00:20:43.344
We printed out the book.

00:20:43.354 --> 00:20:46.284
We hopped in the car and figured, well,
we'll head over to Stephen King's house.

00:20:46.284 --> 00:20:48.054
You know, he'll be outside
gardening or something.

00:20:48.054 --> 00:20:49.144
I'll hand him the manuscript.

00:20:49.144 --> 00:20:51.104
He'll give us a big thumbs
up and we'll be on our way.

00:20:51.404 --> 00:20:52.494
It didn't work out that way.

00:20:52.504 --> 00:20:53.774
So, he lives on.

00:20:54.179 --> 00:20:57.349
Yeah, he lives on a little island
right off the coast of Florida we call

00:20:57.349 --> 00:20:58.889
him Keys down there he lives on K.

00:20:58.889 --> 00:20:59.089
C.

00:20:59.089 --> 00:21:02.179
Key you go over this tiny little bridge,
if you make a left, you go to the entire

00:21:02.179 --> 00:21:05.219
portion of the, the island where bars
and restaurants and stuff like that

00:21:05.219 --> 00:21:08.329
are, if you make a right, you kind of
go to the half that the king owns, and

00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:11.949
there's immediately a private drive
sign and no trespassing sign we got

00:21:11.949 --> 00:21:14.599
about a half mile in and there was a
gate and then there was another gate.

00:21:14.939 --> 00:21:16.759
I started looking up in the
trees thinking there's going to

00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:18.279
be a sniper coming at us next.

00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:19.749
And this is probably a bad idea.

00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:21.799
So my wife and I, we turned
around, we went to a little

00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:23.419
restaurant down near the bridge.

00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:24.469
I called a friend of mine.

00:21:24.469 --> 00:21:25.779
His name was Dallas Mare.

00:21:25.779 --> 00:21:27.419
He wrote another, the name Jack Ketchum.

00:21:27.499 --> 00:21:29.679
He passed away a few years
ago, but a really nice guy.

00:21:29.959 --> 00:21:32.379
I knew he was friends with King
and I told him what we were up to.

00:21:32.379 --> 00:21:33.959
And he said, Oh yeah, don't stalk Steve.

00:21:33.959 --> 00:21:34.639
He hates that.

00:21:34.964 --> 00:21:36.134
Here's his email address.

00:21:36.144 --> 00:21:36.864
Send him the book.

00:21:36.864 --> 00:21:38.374
If he likes it, you'll hear back from him.

00:21:38.374 --> 00:21:41.254
If the book is shit, he probably
won't reply, but, but leave him alone.

00:21:41.624 --> 00:21:44.134
So I emailed off the book with a, you
know, a couple of little paragraphs

00:21:44.134 --> 00:21:45.384
explaining what I was up to.

00:21:45.384 --> 00:21:46.994
I didn't expect to hear from anybody.

00:21:47.264 --> 00:21:49.864
And then about a day or two later,
I got an email back from King and he

00:21:49.864 --> 00:21:51.434
said, I love this, go ahead and use it.

00:21:51.434 --> 00:21:52.604
Let me know if you need anything.

00:21:52.994 --> 00:21:55.434
And you know, ultimately the
book came out, I, I indie

00:21:55.434 --> 00:21:56.764
published that very first one.

00:21:56.954 --> 00:21:58.164
Sales were okay at the.

00:21:58.209 --> 00:21:59.889
The start, but nothing spectacular.

00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.819
And I hired a friend of mine to do
PR somebody I had worked with back

00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:04.669
in the music business years earlier.

00:22:04.909 --> 00:22:07.629
And I told her about this failed trip
to Stephen King's house and she said,

00:22:07.629 --> 00:22:08.919
you know what, that's the story.

00:22:09.369 --> 00:22:12.519
So she reached out to a bunch of
publications and ultimately Publishers

00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:15.859
Weekly wrote a story about this new author
trying to get to Stephen King's house

00:22:15.869 --> 00:22:17.669
to get his permission for use in a book.

00:22:17.959 --> 00:22:21.719
And that story came out and librarians
read it, bookstore owners read it.

00:22:21.729 --> 00:22:24.279
And, you know, all of a sudden they
started ordering the books and that's

00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:25.809
where, where sales really took off.

00:22:26.229 --> 00:22:29.509
Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting
to me about that is that, A, he had

00:22:29.859 --> 00:22:34.059
the time and the bandwidth to read
that book because, you know, I mean,

00:22:34.069 --> 00:22:35.699
I'm sure people send you manuscripts.

00:22:35.989 --> 00:22:39.379
Do you have the time to
read them, you know, maybe

00:22:39.639 --> 00:22:43.849
JD Barker: no, you know, like I, I
probably get, I, I know he gets over

00:22:43.849 --> 00:22:46.649
a hundred books a month cause I've
gotten to know him a little bit.

00:22:46.679 --> 00:22:48.519
And you know, he doesn't
read hardly any of them.

00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:49.299
I take it at the time.

00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:49.549
I didn't.

00:22:49.749 --> 00:22:50.159
Yours.

00:22:50.354 --> 00:22:54.354
I didn't realize how rare of a thing
it was, you know, being autistic,

00:22:54.364 --> 00:22:57.264
it's one, one of my superpowers,
the way my wife describes it is

00:22:57.264 --> 00:22:58.784
I don't take no for an answer.

00:22:58.784 --> 00:23:02.484
I don't really see, you know, the
possibility of a failure, you know, like

00:23:02.484 --> 00:23:06.154
I personally, I feel like I would rather
ask the question, turn me down that

00:23:06.154 --> 00:23:07.454
they're not asked the question at all.

00:23:07.554 --> 00:23:08.596
So I just always approach things that way.

00:23:08.596 --> 00:23:08.931
Why do

00:23:08.931 --> 00:23:11.204
Rupert Isaacson: you think he picked
yours out of that hundred in the month?

00:23:12.144 --> 00:23:15.504
JD Barker: If I had to guess just because
it came in, you know, through that email

00:23:15.504 --> 00:23:19.574
address, you know, which probably nobody
has you know, and, and, you know, I was

00:23:19.574 --> 00:23:21.304
recommended to him by a mutual friend.

00:23:21.744 --> 00:23:25.864
You know, so it was a, but I mean,
like he's, he's just an all around.

00:23:25.944 --> 00:23:27.064
Very, very nice guy.

00:23:27.084 --> 00:23:28.924
So I send him every book that I put out.

00:23:29.224 --> 00:23:32.054
And I had one a few years
back called a caller's game.

00:23:32.274 --> 00:23:34.854
And I shipped it to him from Amazon
and I got a phone call from the

00:23:34.854 --> 00:23:36.934
Amazon driver when he was delivering.

00:23:36.934 --> 00:23:38.864
And he said, listen, it's
pouring rain out here.

00:23:38.864 --> 00:23:40.634
I left the book at your gate.

00:23:40.689 --> 00:23:41.839
You know, can you come out and get it?

00:23:42.199 --> 00:23:44.959
You know, and this wasn't my
house at Stephen King's house.

00:23:45.229 --> 00:23:48.299
So I, so I emailed King and I told him
that, you know, Amazon left this book

00:23:48.299 --> 00:23:52.419
outside, he got his umbrella out, got his
raincoat out, went out there in this nasty

00:23:52.419 --> 00:23:55.979
weather just to get that book, you know,
from, from his gate and bring it back

00:23:55.979 --> 00:23:59.344
into his house, you know, like a lesser
guy would have probably just let it out.

00:23:59.344 --> 00:24:02.004
You know, left it out there to rot,
but like, that's just the kind of guy

00:24:02.004 --> 00:24:05.584
that he, that he is, you know, he, he
remembers what it was like he wrote,

00:24:05.614 --> 00:24:08.134
you know, when he wrote Carrie, he
wrote that in a trailer, you know,

00:24:08.314 --> 00:24:11.354
between a washer and dryer, you
know, like he came from nothing, you

00:24:11.354 --> 00:24:12.694
know, and he knows what that's like.

00:24:12.694 --> 00:24:14.844
And, you know, that, that
struggle is, is very real.

00:24:14.844 --> 00:24:16.044
I think for all of us authors.

00:24:16.314 --> 00:24:17.014
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:24:17.444 --> 00:24:21.974
The other thing that surprises me is
that of course he might've decided sure

00:24:21.974 --> 00:24:25.404
you can use it, but as you know, authors
don't necessarily own their books.

00:24:25.564 --> 00:24:28.304
So if someone was to ask me.

00:24:28.704 --> 00:24:31.244
If they could use something from
my book, I'd have to check with

00:24:31.244 --> 00:24:34.284
my publishers because effectively
they own that book, not me.

00:24:34.634 --> 00:24:40.104
So, why didn't his publishers kick
up a fuss and say, No, no, this J.

00:24:40.104 --> 00:24:40.224
D.

00:24:40.224 --> 00:24:43.504
Barker guy, he's got to pay,
you know, 20k to use that.

00:24:43.804 --> 00:24:44.504
Blah, blah, blah.

00:24:45.769 --> 00:24:49.199
JD Barker: King has been in this industry
for a very long time and he, you know,

00:24:49.229 --> 00:24:50.949
he knows the business inside and out.

00:24:50.979 --> 00:24:53.689
I'm sure he, he looked, you
know, he looks very closely

00:24:53.689 --> 00:24:54.909
at every one of his contracts.

00:24:55.109 --> 00:24:56.949
He knows what he can do
and what he can't do.

00:24:57.389 --> 00:24:58.789
But I totally understand
what you're saying.

00:24:58.789 --> 00:25:02.439
Like, I've got a fantastic agent who
is very good at spotting those things.

00:25:02.439 --> 00:25:05.539
Usually, you know, removes that kind of
stuff, you know, from, from a contract.

00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.399
But I've got film and TV deals
in place now where certain

00:25:08.399 --> 00:25:10.119
characters are owned by a studio.

00:25:10.454 --> 00:25:11.414
Yeah, so I can't put out.

00:25:11.444 --> 00:25:14.154
I can't use my own characters in
some situations without getting

00:25:14.154 --> 00:25:15.534
in the studio to sign off on it.

00:25:15.964 --> 00:25:18.714
And the funny thing is, you know,
the forsaken, you know, like

00:25:18.714 --> 00:25:21.334
it's, it's the only book that I've
written so far that hasn't been

00:25:21.334 --> 00:25:22.904
optioned at some point for a movie.

00:25:23.224 --> 00:25:26.234
And usually the, the turning point
is because they find out about King's

00:25:26.234 --> 00:25:29.534
involvement because, you know, they, they
love the story, they're ready to make it.

00:25:29.534 --> 00:25:32.174
It's, you know, a nice quick little
cheap horror movie that they could film,

00:25:32.374 --> 00:25:33.484
but then they hear that it's tied from.

00:25:33.484 --> 00:25:33.634
Yeah.

00:25:33.634 --> 00:25:33.641
Yeah.

00:25:33.641 --> 00:25:33.649
Yeah.

00:25:33.649 --> 00:25:36.449
To needful things and the lawyers
get ahold of that and they're

00:25:36.449 --> 00:25:38.939
like, yeah, but you know, needful
things is optioned by so and so.

00:25:38.939 --> 00:25:40.669
That means we have to get
permission from these people.

00:25:40.669 --> 00:25:42.129
These people have to sign off on it.

00:25:42.419 --> 00:25:45.059
It gets, it gets so muddy that
everybody just kind of walks away

00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:46.559
slowly and doesn't do anything.

00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:47.029
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:25:47.029 --> 00:25:48.679
I mean, Hollywood hates a lawsuit.

00:25:48.969 --> 00:25:49.778
I.

00:25:50.769 --> 00:25:54.289
In the in the horse boy which is the
main book that people know me for.

00:25:54.299 --> 00:25:57.059
I used a very, very
small excerpt from a Dr.

00:25:57.059 --> 00:26:00.589
Seuss book because that's what I used
to read to my autistic son and boy, oh

00:26:00.589 --> 00:26:04.429
boy, the hoops I had to jump through
just to get, you know, this tiny little

00:26:04.429 --> 00:26:07.719
thing and it cost me quite a lot of
money too, but it was worth it because

00:26:07.969 --> 00:26:08.969
obviously it's part of the story.

00:26:09.159 --> 00:26:11.809
I went through that
with once you get into.

00:26:12.694 --> 00:26:13.084
Go ahead.

00:26:13.084 --> 00:26:16.744
JD Barker: I went through the same
thing with frosty the snowman.

00:26:17.704 --> 00:26:18.754
So I've got a book.

00:26:18.754 --> 00:26:23.284
I wrote called the 5th to die and in it,
they find a body inside of a snowman.

00:26:23.594 --> 00:26:26.024
And I just wanted to use a
couple lyrics from that song.

00:26:26.024 --> 00:26:29.084
And I don't know if the rules are
different where you are, but in the US,

00:26:29.084 --> 00:26:32.264
it's based on a percentage, like, the
words are basically a percentage of the

00:26:32.264 --> 00:26:35.414
actual song that you're allowed to use
without permission anything over that.

00:26:35.514 --> 00:26:38.714
Particular number, you have to get
permission, but frosty, the snowman

00:26:38.714 --> 00:26:40.334
has so many repetitive lines in it.

00:26:40.344 --> 00:26:42.074
You can't really get
away with the whole lot.

00:26:42.354 --> 00:26:45.344
So, yeah, we had to chop it down and just
use little pieces, but it's, you know,

00:26:45.344 --> 00:26:48.804
it's 1 of those songs where you can take
off 2 words and everybody knows the rest.

00:26:49.464 --> 00:26:49.644
Exactly.

00:26:49.804 --> 00:26:50.444
Get away with it.

00:26:50.744 --> 00:26:51.014
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:26:51.344 --> 00:26:51.774
Okay.

00:26:51.774 --> 00:26:56.524
So, of the books, give us
a sort of chronology of the

00:26:56.524 --> 00:26:57.564
books that you've written.

00:27:01.694 --> 00:27:06.174
They are and where they've gone, like
which ones have gone to TV, which ones

00:27:06.174 --> 00:27:08.674
have gone to film, which ones have been
option, but they haven't been made.

00:27:08.864 --> 00:27:11.144
Just give us a bit of a
geography of your work.

00:27:12.264 --> 00:27:13.914
JD Barker: Yeah, so
the 1st 1 was forsaken.

00:27:13.914 --> 00:27:15.184
We've already talked about that.

00:27:15.204 --> 00:27:18.614
While that was coming out, I wrote
a serial killer series called the

00:27:18.614 --> 00:27:21.964
4th monkey 3 different books based
on a serial killer in Chicago.

00:27:22.204 --> 00:27:24.193
That 1 went into the
publication rights sold.

00:27:24.193 --> 00:27:25.093
We also sold it for a few.

00:27:25.093 --> 00:27:30.453
Feature film and for a follow up TV
series with CBS while that was going on.

00:27:30.453 --> 00:27:33.363
I wrote a prequel to Dracula
for Bram Stoker's family.

00:27:33.363 --> 00:27:36.773
That one was picked up by Paramount
with any machete attached to direct.

00:27:37.893 --> 00:27:41.763
I think the next one that I wrote after
that was a caller's game, which was

00:27:41.763 --> 00:27:43.713
picked up by Ridley Scott's company.

00:27:45.703 --> 00:27:47.593
She has a broken thing where
heart should be the Charles

00:27:47.593 --> 00:27:49.913
Dickens retelling that 1 was done.

00:27:49.933 --> 00:27:52.383
It's currently in development
as a, as a TV show.

00:27:53.793 --> 00:27:56.123
There's so many, I'm trying to get
my, it's funny, I think I've got

00:27:56.353 --> 00:27:57.143
12 books out there at this point.

00:27:57.143 --> 00:27:57.243
So did

00:27:57.243 --> 00:27:57.393
Rupert Isaacson: those

00:27:57.473 --> 00:27:58.873
JD Barker: early ones get, get made?

00:27:59.223 --> 00:28:02.473
No, that's the thing, like, in Hollywood,
like, everything has been optioned,

00:28:02.483 --> 00:28:05.563
some of them over and over again,
nothing has actually been filmed yet.

00:28:05.833 --> 00:28:07.863
At this point, it's kind of a
numbers game, you know, like,

00:28:07.863 --> 00:28:10.443
I've got so many in the works, you
know, something is bound to happen.

00:28:10.713 --> 00:28:13.148
But, like, it is com
Completely out of my control.

00:28:13.338 --> 00:28:15.468
One of the things that I've learned
is when something gets optioned

00:28:15.518 --> 00:28:16.928
usually they, they go in for a year.

00:28:16.928 --> 00:28:19.598
They go in for like 18 months,
maybe two years at the onset.

00:28:19.818 --> 00:28:22.548
But as soon as that option expires,
the folks in Hollywood know that it's

00:28:22.548 --> 00:28:25.548
a known commodity, so they tend to jump
all over it, and somebody else usually

00:28:25.548 --> 00:28:26.988
scoops up that option right away.

00:28:27.278 --> 00:28:30.288
So things haven't been out of option
but things can get really crazy.

00:28:30.288 --> 00:28:32.898
A friend of mine told me once, if you
watch the credits at the end of a movie,

00:28:32.898 --> 00:28:34.068
you know all those names flying by.

00:28:34.068 --> 00:28:35.988
It takes five or six minutes
to get through all of 'em.

00:28:36.228 --> 00:28:38.658
Every one of those people had
to come together and be there in

00:28:38.658 --> 00:28:39.653
order for that movie to make it.

00:28:39.978 --> 00:28:43.758
To the screen and you know, it's like
this perfect storm that has to happen.

00:28:44.098 --> 00:28:45.858
Oh, so I, I, I so hear you.

00:28:46.068 --> 00:28:46.258
Yeah.

00:28:46.258 --> 00:28:47.808
So like stuff, stuff can fall apart.

00:28:47.808 --> 00:28:50.468
I mean, to give you an example, a
caller's game with Ridley Scott's company.

00:28:50.468 --> 00:28:53.368
At one point I got a phone call
saying Jennifer Garner had signed on.

00:28:53.628 --> 00:28:54.288
She loves the book.

00:28:54.288 --> 00:28:55.158
She wants to make it.

00:28:55.398 --> 00:28:58.348
Jennifer Garner had a, what's called
a first look deal with Netflix.

00:28:58.618 --> 00:28:59.558
So now we had a studio.

00:28:59.878 --> 00:29:02.858
Netflix greenlit a hundred million
dollar budget for the project.

00:29:02.868 --> 00:29:05.408
All this stuff happened probably
within about two to three weeks.

00:29:05.758 --> 00:29:06.898
Then we got another phone call.

00:29:06.908 --> 00:29:08.768
Jennifer Garner's got
a scheduling conflict.

00:29:08.768 --> 00:29:10.248
She's got to pull out, you know.

00:29:10.248 --> 00:29:13.278
So our star went away, then Netflix
went away, and the budget went away.

00:29:13.638 --> 00:29:15.798
You know, all this stuff, you know,
within a month, you know, it's

00:29:15.798 --> 00:29:17.328
like this crazy roller coaster.

00:29:17.338 --> 00:29:20.768
So honestly, like I, I keep my head down
and just kind of write the next book.

00:29:20.768 --> 00:29:22.238
I know sooner or later
it's going to happen.

00:29:22.528 --> 00:29:24.478
But I try not to get too
wrapped up in all that stuff.

00:29:24.528 --> 00:29:26.438
Rupert Isaacson: Well, one of the
things which I found with this Cause

00:29:26.468 --> 00:29:29.678
I've had a couple of books optioned and
then they stayed in option for gosh, a

00:29:29.678 --> 00:29:34.748
decade, you know, and then one day and
yes, all sorts of actors were attached.

00:29:34.748 --> 00:29:36.028
It's exactly as you described it.

00:29:36.198 --> 00:29:37.188
It all goes very quiet.

00:29:37.288 --> 00:29:40.298
And then you get a phone call saying,
ah, you know, this big person.

00:29:40.298 --> 00:29:42.468
Or it's a person you've never
heard of that they tell you is big.

00:29:42.798 --> 00:29:44.928
Particularly as you get older
like me and you sort of don't

00:29:44.928 --> 00:29:46.098
know who the celebs are anymore.

00:29:46.478 --> 00:29:49.628
And then it goes away
for this sort of thing.

00:29:49.628 --> 00:29:53.278
That actress goes and has a baby
or it turns out that, as you say,

00:29:53.278 --> 00:29:54.508
scheduling conflict or whatever.

00:29:54.858 --> 00:29:58.018
But what I've found is Sometimes
I don't wait around, sometimes

00:29:58.018 --> 00:29:59.388
I just go and make them myself.

00:29:59.818 --> 00:30:04.158
And so I made a documentary, I made two TV
reality shows that way called The Quest.

00:30:04.598 --> 00:30:09.998
Have you not considered just being a
producer and making one of them yourself?

00:30:10.248 --> 00:30:10.648
For the cra

00:30:11.588 --> 00:30:13.568
JD Barker: At some point I
might but, you know, like, I

00:30:13.568 --> 00:30:14.818
know how to write a good book.

00:30:14.838 --> 00:30:17.498
I know a good book is gonna bring
me, you know, a nice payday.

00:30:17.498 --> 00:30:18.588
I do really well with them.

00:30:18.918 --> 00:30:21.848
So, like, I just don't have the,
the bandwidth to branch out to, to

00:30:21.858 --> 00:30:24.088
do other, other things like that.

00:30:24.088 --> 00:30:26.748
Like, that would just take, there's,
once we figure out how to get 27

00:30:26.828 --> 00:30:29.418
or 30 hours in a day, then I could
probably take something like that on.

00:30:29.778 --> 00:30:31.448
But, but right now it's
just not happening.

00:30:31.998 --> 00:30:35.138
And is all your publishing self
publishing, or are you with

00:30:35.138 --> 00:30:36.298
several different mainstreams?

00:30:37.413 --> 00:30:38.703
I've been all over the place.

00:30:38.743 --> 00:30:41.763
So the, the Serial Killer series
I mentioned, that was with HMH,

00:30:41.773 --> 00:30:43.253
which is now part of HarperCollins.

00:30:43.523 --> 00:30:44.983
I've got books with Random House.

00:30:45.223 --> 00:30:46.823
I indie published my first book.

00:30:46.843 --> 00:30:49.773
And then I, I kind of did a hybrid
approach for a couple of books because

00:30:50.003 --> 00:30:52.653
when, when you indie publish, you
know, the economics are fantastic.

00:30:52.663 --> 00:30:54.413
You make about 70 cents on the dollar.

00:30:54.703 --> 00:30:56.953
Traditional publishers are good
because they'll You know, they give

00:30:56.953 --> 00:30:59.613
you a nice big advance check, but
you've got to pay that advance back.

00:30:59.873 --> 00:31:01.553
And usually it's for
pennies on the dollar.

00:31:01.553 --> 00:31:03.953
So you've got to sell a lot more
books to pay that money back than

00:31:03.953 --> 00:31:05.073
if you were to indie publish it.

00:31:05.353 --> 00:31:07.363
So after I got about four or
five books in that, I started

00:31:07.363 --> 00:31:08.783
becoming very aware of that.

00:31:09.033 --> 00:31:11.233
And I, I wanted to try and
take some of the control back.

00:31:11.233 --> 00:31:12.893
So I did a hybrid approach.

00:31:13.143 --> 00:31:16.283
I basically told my agent, I'm going
to retain English rights for myself.

00:31:16.383 --> 00:31:18.873
So the various countries that speak
English, I'm going to put those out.

00:31:19.153 --> 00:31:21.743
And she's more than welcome to
continue selling in all the foreign

00:31:21.743 --> 00:31:23.343
territories for each of my books.

00:31:23.493 --> 00:31:26.643
And I'm in about 150 different
countries, a little shy of 30 languages.

00:31:26.913 --> 00:31:28.943
You know, so I've got,
it's a pretty decent pool.

00:31:28.953 --> 00:31:29.943
She's still got to play in.

00:31:30.193 --> 00:31:32.223
But I did that for a couple of
books and I really liked it.

00:31:32.473 --> 00:31:34.133
Then about a year and a
half ago, I wrote a book.

00:31:34.153 --> 00:31:37.353
called Behind a Closed Door, and I sent
it off to my agent, and at that point, I

00:31:37.353 --> 00:31:38.843
was with a company called Writers House.

00:31:39.123 --> 00:31:41.653
They started shopping it, and while they
were shopping it, we started getting

00:31:41.653 --> 00:31:43.243
phone calls from the folks in Hollywood.

00:31:43.243 --> 00:31:45.913
We ended up selling the film
option before we sold anything

00:31:45.913 --> 00:31:47.063
on the publication rights.

00:31:47.333 --> 00:31:50.223
The, the publishers got wind of
that, so then they, you know, all

00:31:50.223 --> 00:31:52.633
the publishers all of a sudden wanted
this book because it's been optioned.

00:31:52.963 --> 00:31:55.653
So the book was about to go to auction,
you know, meaning there were more than one

00:31:55.653 --> 00:31:57.163
publishers that wanted to get involved.

00:31:57.468 --> 00:32:00.178
And I got a phone call from a friend
of mine who worked at Random House, and

00:32:00.178 --> 00:32:02.938
she said, listen, we're about to offer
on your book in this auction, and when

00:32:02.938 --> 00:32:04.418
that happens, you need to turn it down.

00:32:04.808 --> 00:32:07.238
And I asked her why, and she said,
well, we're about to lay off a

00:32:07.238 --> 00:32:09.888
bunch of people, and the editor who
wants your book is on that list.

00:32:10.208 --> 00:32:12.478
And there's nothing worse than having
a book, you know, that loses its

00:32:12.478 --> 00:32:15.238
editor at a publisher, because that
book can sit there in limbo forever.

00:32:15.648 --> 00:32:17.948
I got a similar phone call from
somebody at HarperCollins about a

00:32:17.948 --> 00:32:20.823
week later, and then all these These
layoffs happened all across the

00:32:20.823 --> 00:32:22.533
industry which really spooked me.

00:32:22.543 --> 00:32:25.743
So I reached out to some friends of mine
that I used to work with in finance.

00:32:26.123 --> 00:32:29.303
Simon and Schuster had just recently
been bought by a private equity firm.

00:32:29.603 --> 00:32:32.483
So I started these back channel
conversations with Simon and Schuster,

00:32:32.543 --> 00:32:35.553
and ultimately I created my own
imprint through Simon and Schuster.

00:32:35.553 --> 00:32:38.533
We struck a deal where I basically
created my own publishing imprint.

00:32:38.553 --> 00:32:41.653
Through Simon and Schuster, they handle
all of my print sales and distribution.

00:32:41.973 --> 00:32:43.443
So I kind of get the best of both worlds.

00:32:43.443 --> 00:32:46.113
I can put out whatever books I
want, whenever I want, but through

00:32:46.113 --> 00:32:48.363
Simon and Schuster, which means
they get in all the places I

00:32:48.363 --> 00:32:49.803
couldn't get to as an indie author.

00:32:50.033 --> 00:32:51.783
So you'll find my books
in the big box stores.

00:32:51.783 --> 00:32:54.533
You'll find them in the grocery
stores, the drug stores you know, any

00:32:54.533 --> 00:32:55.883
place where, where books are sold.

00:32:56.153 --> 00:32:57.123
So that's where I'm at today.

00:32:57.123 --> 00:32:58.183
And I honestly love it.

00:32:58.183 --> 00:33:00.333
I think it's the best possible
position I could be in.

00:33:00.918 --> 00:33:01.378
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.

00:33:01.388 --> 00:33:03.788
Now, of course wading through
the fine print of all those

00:33:03.818 --> 00:33:05.118
contracts is a difficult thing.

00:33:05.348 --> 00:33:07.188
Does your agent still handle all that?

00:33:07.688 --> 00:33:09.268
Even when you're semi indie?

00:33:10.148 --> 00:33:12.928
JD Barker: It, it depends on the contract,
and I've, I've got multiple agents.

00:33:12.928 --> 00:33:15.888
I've got one that handles domestic
sales, another one that handles foreign.

00:33:15.888 --> 00:33:17.368
I've got a film and television agent.

00:33:17.748 --> 00:33:20.468
And I've got an attorney who kind
of, you know, oversees all of it.

00:33:20.918 --> 00:33:23.568
So depending on what's coming down
the pike, I, I, you know, I, I tend to

00:33:23.568 --> 00:33:25.298
pass it off to the right pair of eyes.

00:33:25.328 --> 00:33:28.948
I try not to review that stuff on my
own, but, but, but I can, I mean, I, I

00:33:28.948 --> 00:33:32.218
was, I was a chief compliance officer
at a brokerage firm for two decades.

00:33:32.488 --> 00:33:34.348
You know, that, that's
all legal experience.

00:33:34.348 --> 00:33:35.918
I've, I've been through
more contracts than.

00:33:35.973 --> 00:33:39.193
You know, that I could name so I'm
capable of doing it, but it's always good.

00:33:39.223 --> 00:33:41.973
Even, you know, even if I was an attorney,
I would still get a second pair of

00:33:41.973 --> 00:33:43.223
eyes to look at some of these things.

00:33:43.433 --> 00:33:45.943
Publishing contracts tend to be
pretty straightforward, but a film

00:33:45.943 --> 00:33:48.443
and TV contract can be 300 pages long.

00:33:48.783 --> 00:33:51.313
And, you know, they might say the
same thing five different ways in

00:33:51.313 --> 00:33:52.643
different spots in the contract.

00:33:52.853 --> 00:33:55.103
It's, it's best to have the right
person to look at that sort of thing.

00:33:55.813 --> 00:33:56.263
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:33:56.713 --> 00:33:58.763
How did you go about
getting your first agent?

00:33:58.773 --> 00:34:02.833
I know, so, the reason I'm asking that
question is, again, I know a lot of

00:34:02.833 --> 00:34:06.963
people really want to write, and when
they have something good whether it's

00:34:07.033 --> 00:34:11.823
an a proposal, if it's non fiction, or
they've actually written the book as

00:34:11.823 --> 00:34:15.283
fiction, because Again, a little bit of
insider information for the listeners.

00:34:15.463 --> 00:34:17.853
If you're going to write a memoir or
something like that, you can often

00:34:17.853 --> 00:34:22.443
get a publishing deal with a very good
proposal, but for fiction, you almost

00:34:22.463 --> 00:34:24.003
always have to write the whole book.

00:34:24.383 --> 00:34:28.603
But once you've got that getting an
agent, of course, as you know, is.

00:34:29.843 --> 00:34:31.853
Not just extremely useful.

00:34:31.853 --> 00:34:32.663
It's kind of key.

00:34:33.343 --> 00:34:35.073
How did you go about getting your agent?

00:34:35.103 --> 00:34:38.333
And what advice have you got for
people now because the industry's

00:34:38.333 --> 00:34:42.063
changed a lot since we came into it
so how did you get your first agent?

00:34:42.103 --> 00:34:44.863
And then what would you say to
people who are coming into to it

00:34:44.863 --> 00:34:46.523
now wanting to find a good agent?

00:34:47.553 --> 00:34:49.623
JD Barker: Well, the first time
around, I did it completely wrong.

00:34:49.763 --> 00:34:52.313
I had no idea what I was doing when it
came to like, I knew how to write a book.

00:34:52.313 --> 00:34:53.593
I had no clue how to get an agent.

00:34:53.863 --> 00:34:57.263
So I actually bought a list of 200
agents just an Excel spreadsheet

00:34:57.263 --> 00:34:58.673
with all their contact information.

00:34:58.963 --> 00:35:01.593
And I sent out a mass email
literally to whom it may

00:35:01.593 --> 00:35:02.783
concern, you know, here, here's.

00:35:02.813 --> 00:35:05.443
What my book is about, here's
the first three chapters.

00:35:05.443 --> 00:35:09.453
I sent everybody the exact same thing,
which is not how you're supposed to do it.

00:35:09.463 --> 00:35:12.893
If you go to an agent's website, everyone
tells you exactly what they want.

00:35:13.123 --> 00:35:13.973
They're all different.

00:35:13.983 --> 00:35:15.933
You know, this agent wants a PDF file.

00:35:15.933 --> 00:35:17.263
This one wants a word document.

00:35:17.263 --> 00:35:18.423
This one wants one chapter.

00:35:18.423 --> 00:35:19.453
This one wants three.

00:35:19.773 --> 00:35:21.023
They want it in an aerial font.

00:35:21.063 --> 00:35:22.553
But this one wants Times New Roman.

00:35:22.553 --> 00:35:23.823
Like every one of them is different.

00:35:24.063 --> 00:35:25.023
You have to appease them.

00:35:25.023 --> 00:35:27.343
You have to do what they're asking
because they will just hit that

00:35:27.343 --> 00:35:28.853
delete button the second it comes in.

00:35:28.853 --> 00:35:31.433
If it's not in the right format,
you know, without even looking

00:35:31.433 --> 00:35:32.413
at what the book is about.

00:35:32.713 --> 00:35:35.853
So the first time with Forsaken, I sent
all those out and I, and I didn't get

00:35:35.853 --> 00:35:39.113
an agent, I got hardly any responses
because I basically did it wrong.

00:35:39.523 --> 00:35:42.283
When it came time for the second
book, the fourth monkey, I had a

00:35:42.413 --> 00:35:46.033
really strong sales record behind
me which makes things way easier.

00:35:46.103 --> 00:35:48.543
You know, because they were
able to pull up my sales record.

00:35:48.543 --> 00:35:50.513
They could see what I was
capable of moving, you know,

00:35:50.513 --> 00:35:51.943
on my own as an indie author.

00:35:52.193 --> 00:35:55.253
That's something that's very attractive
to the traditional publishers because

00:35:55.253 --> 00:35:56.543
you've got a proven track record.

00:35:56.813 --> 00:35:59.073
So I had no trouble getting an
agent the second time around.

00:35:59.173 --> 00:35:59.783
I think I'd make very

00:35:59.823 --> 00:36:01.743
Rupert Isaacson: How did, well,
how did you move all those

00:36:01.763 --> 00:36:03.973
copies as The indie author.

00:36:04.403 --> 00:36:07.853
I mean, I know that you had this great
story about trying to get to Stephen

00:36:07.853 --> 00:36:13.543
King and then him, obviously reading
your book and so on, but nonetheless, to

00:36:13.603 --> 00:36:16.568
actually move copies is another thing.

00:36:16.578 --> 00:36:17.338
How did you do that?

00:36:18.318 --> 00:36:20.878
JD Barker: Yeah, I mean, the Stephen
King helped a lot because it, you

00:36:20.878 --> 00:36:22.348
know, it kind of spurred things.

00:36:22.368 --> 00:36:23.438
You have to have a good book.

00:36:23.878 --> 00:36:24.758
That's key.

00:36:25.098 --> 00:36:27.638
A lot of people think they don't
even consider that, but you

00:36:27.638 --> 00:36:28.908
have to have a five star read.

00:36:29.188 --> 00:36:31.238
It has to be the kind of book
where somebody reads it and

00:36:31.238 --> 00:36:32.598
they tell five people about it.

00:36:33.248 --> 00:36:35.598
Because word of mouth is
what really sells books.

00:36:36.028 --> 00:36:39.378
That particular book, and luckily
a lot of mine have had that That

00:36:39.378 --> 00:36:42.008
kind of power, you know, people
just tell their friends about them.

00:36:42.008 --> 00:36:42.948
They read one.

00:36:42.948 --> 00:36:45.798
They've got to read the next five
that I write, so I've been really

00:36:45.798 --> 00:36:47.058
lucky when it comes to that.

00:36:47.648 --> 00:36:50.758
I did a lot of advertising very
early on Facebook and Amazon ads

00:36:50.758 --> 00:36:52.068
before it was really popular.

00:36:52.678 --> 00:36:55.548
I did a lot of translations early
on before indie authors were

00:36:55.558 --> 00:36:56.748
really doing that sort of thing.

00:36:56.748 --> 00:36:59.268
I hired my own translators and
put the books out in different

00:36:59.268 --> 00:37:00.438
countries all on my own.

00:37:01.318 --> 00:37:03.438
You know, and, and the
margins are much better.

00:37:03.438 --> 00:37:05.708
And I took that same, you know, that
money and I was able to roll it back

00:37:05.708 --> 00:37:08.868
into more advertising and it just
becomes this self fulfilling machine.

00:37:08.908 --> 00:37:09.558
So you were basically

00:37:09.708 --> 00:37:13.768
Rupert Isaacson: using your savings to
do those translations, buy those ads,

00:37:13.818 --> 00:37:16.258
because that's the other thing is people
have to know that the book exists.

00:37:16.258 --> 00:37:17.548
They need to know that it's out there.

00:37:17.978 --> 00:37:19.478
What would you say it costs you?

00:37:20.108 --> 00:37:21.358
To put that first book out,

00:37:22.638 --> 00:37:25.748
JD Barker: I think I spent about
1, 000 on the cover, maybe another

00:37:25.748 --> 00:37:30.628
2, 000 for formatting and editing
probably all in maybe 5, 000 or

00:37:30.628 --> 00:37:31.998
so to, to get it out the door.

00:37:32.298 --> 00:37:35.388
The audio book, I think I
paid 400 per finished hour.

00:37:35.388 --> 00:37:37.418
So that was about another 4 or 5, 000.

00:37:37.428 --> 00:37:40.358
But I made that back like within the
first month easily on audio books.

00:37:40.778 --> 00:37:42.638
You know, they're, they're not
quite as lucrative as they used

00:37:42.638 --> 00:37:45.258
to be, but they, you can still, I
mean, they're a huge profit center.

00:37:45.568 --> 00:37:47.178
Yeah, I think every author
should be doing that sort

00:37:47.178 --> 00:37:47.378
Rupert Isaacson: of thing.

00:37:47.388 --> 00:37:48.198
That's not cheap.

00:37:48.198 --> 00:37:49.548
So you're 10 grand in there.

00:37:49.708 --> 00:37:51.318
What did you spend on the advertising?

00:37:52.223 --> 00:37:56.853
JD Barker: Oh, I mean, there is points in
my career where I've spent 000 in a month.

00:37:57.183 --> 00:38:00.753
I've done that within a week
of publication on one book.

00:38:00.753 --> 00:38:03.023
I spent, I think, 15, 000 in seven days.

00:38:03.333 --> 00:38:03.453
Right.

00:38:03.463 --> 00:38:05.573
It's all about, for me, it's
about watching the metrics.

00:38:05.573 --> 00:38:08.273
As long as the money coming in
exceeds the money going out.

00:38:10.113 --> 00:38:12.623
Rupert Isaacson: But that first
book, your first time author, you,

00:38:12.653 --> 00:38:15.603
you know, you're doing a bit of
a financial white knuckle ride.

00:38:16.223 --> 00:38:17.313
What would you say?

00:38:17.403 --> 00:38:17.853
Okay, wait.

00:38:17.853 --> 00:38:19.473
So we're 10 grand in for the production.

00:38:19.943 --> 00:38:23.833
What would you say it cost you in the
advertising and going back remembering?

00:38:23.833 --> 00:38:24.203
This is what?

00:38:24.663 --> 00:38:26.163
20 years ago or 15

00:38:26.163 --> 00:38:28.353
JD Barker: years ago, it
was about 10 years ago.

00:38:28.673 --> 00:38:30.973
I, I don't, I, I couldn't give
you a number without going

00:38:30.983 --> 00:38:31.943
back to the spreadsheets.

00:38:31.943 --> 00:38:34.883
I, I, it, it got significant at one point.

00:38:34.923 --> 00:38:37.633
But you know, your dollars, we know
it's not cheaper back in those days.

00:38:38.113 --> 00:38:40.183
No, I mean, like I was getting
click throughs at like, you

00:38:40.183 --> 00:38:42.493
know, 5, 10 cents back back then.

00:38:42.503 --> 00:38:44.123
Like in today's world,
you just don't get that.

00:38:44.123 --> 00:38:46.043
There's, there's, it's
too crowded of a market.

00:38:46.413 --> 00:38:47.853
So it's just, it's completely different.

00:38:47.883 --> 00:38:50.323
You know, book bump back then, like
you would get one book bump deal

00:38:50.323 --> 00:38:51.848
and you'd move, you know, 5, 10.

00:38:51.868 --> 00:38:54.378
Thousand copies in a day you
know, like that just doesn't

00:38:54.378 --> 00:38:55.378
happen anymore with book.

00:38:55.378 --> 00:38:59.748
Bob, I'm, I'm always looking for like the
next biggest thing, you know, from what

00:38:59.748 --> 00:39:03.028
I've been able to tell over the years,
if I see all the other indie authors out

00:39:03.028 --> 00:39:06.608
there talking about it, doing something at
that point it's, it's too late, you know,

00:39:06.608 --> 00:39:08.158
like it's time to find the next big thing.

00:39:08.158 --> 00:39:09.818
If you do what everybody else
is doing, you're just going to

00:39:09.818 --> 00:39:10.978
kind of get lost in that mix.

00:39:11.448 --> 00:39:13.128
Rupert Isaacson: And how do
you find, how do you go about

00:39:13.128 --> 00:39:14.768
finding that new big thing?

00:39:14.768 --> 00:39:16.838
Again, there'll be, there'll
be young authors out there

00:39:16.988 --> 00:39:18.258
needing this information.

00:39:18.928 --> 00:39:21.728
JD Barker: Yeah, so that, I think
the autistic person in me is, is what

00:39:21.728 --> 00:39:23.028
really leads that charge, you know.

00:39:23.028 --> 00:39:26.078
I, I look at a problem and I look
for a solution to that problem.

00:39:26.078 --> 00:39:27.868
So, to give you an example TikTok.

00:39:27.878 --> 00:39:30.753
When TikTok first came out You
know, I started watching it, trying

00:39:30.753 --> 00:39:33.163
to figure out, like, how can an
author move a book on tick tock?

00:39:33.433 --> 00:39:36.283
And, you know, I quickly realized
nobody wants to see me dancing around

00:39:36.283 --> 00:39:37.703
in a bathing suit, holding up my book.

00:39:37.733 --> 00:39:38.643
That's not going to work.

00:39:38.873 --> 00:39:39.813
It's not scalable.

00:39:40.913 --> 00:39:43.063
It's, you know, it's, it's one of
those things, like, it's just not, you

00:39:43.063 --> 00:39:45.183
know, I couldn't do it enough of that.

00:39:45.193 --> 00:39:49.083
Like, so what I ultimately ended up doing,
I, I hired a couple of college kids.

00:39:49.083 --> 00:39:52.153
They combed through book talk, which
was the hashtag used for tick tock.

00:39:52.473 --> 00:39:55.353
And they started gathering email
addresses of all the people that were.

00:39:55.373 --> 00:39:56.973
pushing books on Tick Tock.

00:39:57.273 --> 00:40:00.183
And ultimately I put together a
list of about, I think it's 3, 500

00:40:00.183 --> 00:40:02.323
to 4, 000 book talk influencers.

00:40:02.603 --> 00:40:04.383
The smallest one's got
a thousand followers.

00:40:04.383 --> 00:40:06.213
The biggest one is a
little shy of a million.

00:40:06.523 --> 00:40:08.863
And we created a company
called best of book talks.

00:40:08.863 --> 00:40:12.303
So once a week we put out an email
that goes to those influencers.

00:40:12.343 --> 00:40:15.573
I get ARC copies from the
traditional publishers for free.

00:40:15.893 --> 00:40:17.493
That I can give to those influencers.

00:40:17.503 --> 00:40:19.673
So it's very similar to book
Bob, but for influencers.

00:40:19.703 --> 00:40:21.553
So they get an email of five or 10 titles.

00:40:21.833 --> 00:40:24.023
They can say, okay, I want this
one, this one, and this one.

00:40:24.313 --> 00:40:27.833
And my company arranges the,
the ARCs to go to them directly.

00:40:28.103 --> 00:40:30.563
So now I've got this giant
tool that has this mailing

00:40:30.563 --> 00:40:31.983
list that goes out once a week.

00:40:32.233 --> 00:40:35.223
Anytime I want to push my own titles,
I can put them in there and get

00:40:35.223 --> 00:40:36.633
them in front of that large group.

00:40:36.718 --> 00:40:40.098
You know, millions and millions of
followers all in one shot essentially

00:40:40.098 --> 00:40:43.228
for free because I'm piggybacking
on a company that I already own.

00:40:43.608 --> 00:40:46.548
Versus, you know, me trying to
create videos just hoping to go

00:40:46.548 --> 00:40:49.448
viral and create something, you
know, like everybody else is doing.

00:40:49.828 --> 00:40:51.178
So that, that's the
kind of thing that I do.

00:40:51.178 --> 00:40:52.208
I look for What gave you the

00:40:52.208 --> 00:40:54.528
Rupert Isaacson: idea to start,
that's brilliant, what gave you

00:40:54.528 --> 00:40:58.328
that idea to start a company to
supply these people with books?

00:40:59.528 --> 00:41:03.708
JD Barker: My accountant, because
if you once you start doing anything

00:41:03.708 --> 00:41:07.578
that brings in any kind of revenue,
it's best to break it off from the

00:41:07.588 --> 00:41:09.098
other revenue generating sources.

00:41:09.098 --> 00:41:10.938
So, you know, became an LLC.

00:41:10.948 --> 00:41:12.248
Then it became a corporation.

00:41:13.108 --> 00:41:15.978
I've done that quite a few
times over the, you know, over

00:41:15.978 --> 00:41:17.828
my career, just creating stuff.

00:41:18.138 --> 00:41:19.478
You know, it's like throwing
spaghetti at a wall.

00:41:19.478 --> 00:41:22.598
I mean, for every 10 things that I create,
one of them might actually work out.

00:41:22.898 --> 00:41:25.358
But if I don't try, you know, like,
none of them are going to work out.

00:41:25.358 --> 00:41:26.808
So I'm always trying something different.

00:41:27.953 --> 00:41:31.363
Rupert Isaacson: And in order to
get, so, so when you're putting the

00:41:31.363 --> 00:41:35.533
titles, I presume you still do this
in front of these booktok influencers.

00:41:36.163 --> 00:41:37.213
How do you get these titles?

00:41:37.213 --> 00:41:39.273
How can you be sure that
you can deliver them?

00:41:40.113 --> 00:41:41.853
Because that's distribution effectively.

00:41:41.853 --> 00:41:43.223
How do you become that distributor?

00:41:44.463 --> 00:41:46.083
JD Barker: It's all
already done in advance.

00:41:46.093 --> 00:41:49.683
So while the influencers are signing
up and working on that portion of the

00:41:49.683 --> 00:41:54.123
list, getting the email and requesting
books, publishers are basically bidding

00:41:54.123 --> 00:41:57.313
for those spots within the email, just
like if you're as an author, you try to

00:41:57.323 --> 00:42:01.153
get a spot on book, Bob, you have to pay
book Bob to be on that particular email.

00:42:01.173 --> 00:42:04.523
So every book that's listed is
a bought and paid for a spot

00:42:04.533 --> 00:42:05.883
from the traditional publishers.

00:42:06.433 --> 00:42:06.823
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:42:06.823 --> 00:42:10.474
But I guess, I guess for me, what I'm
trying to understand is you are, you are,

00:42:10.474 --> 00:42:14.713
are you sending them physical copies or
are you just No, we just, we pass them

00:42:14.718 --> 00:42:15.553
recommending that they read something?

00:42:16.703 --> 00:42:18.113
JD Barker: No, we, we
give them two options.

00:42:18.113 --> 00:42:20.993
So they can either download the ebook,
you know, which we, we set up the,

00:42:20.993 --> 00:42:23.783
the download link so they can actually
download directly to their Kindle

00:42:24.003 --> 00:42:25.563
or they can request a physical copy.

00:42:25.563 --> 00:42:28.533
And if they request a physical copy
that their information goes into a

00:42:28.533 --> 00:42:30.933
form and that data gets transmitted
to the publisher, and then the

00:42:30.933 --> 00:42:32.313
publisher actually mails them out.

00:42:32.583 --> 00:42:33.908
So we don't physically
have to touch anything.

00:42:35.313 --> 00:42:39.023
And how how do you choose which
titles to put in front of them?

00:42:40.103 --> 00:42:42.743
We get a lot of submissions from
the, from all the publishers.

00:42:42.753 --> 00:42:45.683
So we just kind of pick through them
and, you know, pick our, our favourites.

00:42:45.703 --> 00:42:47.233
What we feel is, is going to work.

00:42:47.483 --> 00:42:50.823
You know, over time we've learned what
the audience on TikTok is looking for too.

00:42:50.823 --> 00:42:53.333
Like we know they're not going to
resonate with like a children's book.

00:42:53.653 --> 00:42:55.363
Westerns don't do particularly well.

00:42:55.363 --> 00:42:58.333
It's, it's really fantasy and romance
and thrillers, you know, come third.

00:42:58.703 --> 00:43:00.253
So, you know, we've
learned that over time.

00:43:00.293 --> 00:43:02.243
And we, we keep that in
mind as we pick the titles.

00:43:03.268 --> 00:43:04.308
So it's mostly fantasy.

00:43:05.478 --> 00:43:07.558
Fantasy tends to be the
biggest right now, yeah.

00:43:07.608 --> 00:43:08.658
Across the board.

00:43:09.208 --> 00:43:10.418
This sounds like a full time job.

00:43:10.428 --> 00:43:11.438
How do you have time to write?

00:43:12.458 --> 00:43:13.578
I hire other people.

00:43:15.108 --> 00:43:18.118
I mean, you know, it starts off as
an idea coming out of my head then

00:43:18.118 --> 00:43:22.218
I usually rope in, you know, one of
my assistants or somebody to help me

00:43:22.738 --> 00:43:23.978
then it just kind of grows from there.

00:43:23.978 --> 00:43:26.068
I mean, at this point there's
four different people that work

00:43:26.068 --> 00:43:27.318
on best of book talk alone.

00:43:28.138 --> 00:43:31.378
They're in the middle, like, right
now, if things Continue tick tock is

00:43:31.378 --> 00:43:32.698
going to get shut down here in the U.

00:43:32.698 --> 00:43:32.878
S.

00:43:32.908 --> 00:43:34.148
As of this coming Sunday.

00:43:34.548 --> 00:43:37.368
So they've been scrambling to try
and figure out what comes next.

00:43:37.368 --> 00:43:40.238
So we've, we've already purchased
all the domains for like best of

00:43:40.378 --> 00:43:43.408
books to Graham and, you know, like
basically all the other platforms.

00:43:43.698 --> 00:43:46.168
The nice thing is in, in, you
know, in that particular world

00:43:46.168 --> 00:43:50.278
and influencer, they don't just
put book reviews on a tick tock.

00:43:50.548 --> 00:43:53.138
They tend to put it out on all the
different social media platforms.

00:43:53.138 --> 00:43:55.408
So it's going to be a
sideways step for all of them.

00:43:55.408 --> 00:43:58.188
It's just at this point, nobody knows
where that sideways step is going to be.

00:43:58.698 --> 00:43:59.298
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

00:43:59.668 --> 00:44:04.298
I mean you say you just hire other people,
but of course that takes, you know, There

00:44:04.298 --> 00:44:07.358
must be a point where you're prototyping
an idea like that, best of booktok,

00:44:08.408 --> 00:44:12.428
where you have to just do it yourself and
bootstrap it and then see if it works and

00:44:12.428 --> 00:44:16.898
then Hire other people because of course
that's expensive or do you take do you

00:44:16.898 --> 00:44:18.698
take the risk and just hire right away?

00:44:19.808 --> 00:44:22.298
JD Barker: No, no, it tends to grow
like I tend to do, you know, like

00:44:22.318 --> 00:44:26.278
99 percent of the work at the very
beginning Then I bring in other people

00:44:26.438 --> 00:44:30.218
on a 50 percent of that Just kind of
whittle away at it until I get into the

00:44:30.218 --> 00:44:31.998
I fall into more of a supervisory role

00:44:32.648 --> 00:44:35.088
Rupert Isaacson: How long would you
say you're having to do all of it

00:44:35.498 --> 00:44:38.008
before you can hand it over to say 50%?

00:44:39.293 --> 00:44:40.673
JD Barker: It really
depends on the entity.

00:44:40.673 --> 00:44:42.453
I mean, that that one
took off straight away.

00:44:42.493 --> 00:44:45.273
You know, as soon as we put it out there,
we got reception from the publishers.

00:44:45.273 --> 00:44:46.883
We got reception from the influencers.

00:44:47.093 --> 00:44:50.513
I knew it was going to grow, and I
knew I'd be able to scale it right now.

00:44:50.513 --> 00:44:51.303
We're trying to decide.

00:44:51.303 --> 00:44:53.143
Do we want to scale into other languages?

00:44:53.843 --> 00:44:54.343
Do we want it?

00:44:54.603 --> 00:44:57.353
We're only doing one email a week,
and we could easily create one

00:44:57.353 --> 00:45:00.253
email for thrillers, another one for
fantasy, another one for romance,

00:45:00.463 --> 00:45:01.973
put out three or four emails a week.

00:45:02.643 --> 00:45:04.943
So those are the kind of
conversations we're having internally.

00:45:05.853 --> 00:45:08.703
Rupert Isaacson: So, with something
like that, you're, you're writing,

00:45:08.703 --> 00:45:10.483
now you're sort of influencing.

00:45:11.583 --> 00:45:15.093
The next step, presumably,
sounds like publishing.

00:45:15.573 --> 00:45:16.973
Are you going to become a publisher?

00:45:18.303 --> 00:45:21.303
JD Barker: Well, I, I sort of already am
with my arrangement with Simon Schuster,

00:45:21.323 --> 00:45:22.593
so I've, I've got that covered too.

00:45:23.193 --> 00:45:24.493
Rupert Isaacson: But in
terms of publishing other

00:45:24.493 --> 00:45:25.453
people and becoming a house?

00:45:26.803 --> 00:45:27.813
JD Barker: I've thought about it.

00:45:27.833 --> 00:45:30.863
I'm doing a lot of work with
coauthors, which I'm really enjoying.

00:45:30.903 --> 00:45:32.993
You know, I've got a ton of
ideas, but I've only had so much

00:45:32.993 --> 00:45:34.203
time to write books on my own.

00:45:34.203 --> 00:45:37.623
So every once in a while, I'll come up
with an idea and I'll create it and bring

00:45:37.623 --> 00:45:39.363
in somebody else to write it with me.

00:45:39.633 --> 00:45:40.713
And I love doing that.

00:45:40.713 --> 00:45:41.443
I mean, I've got a book I just.

00:45:41.568 --> 00:45:43.098
That released in November called heavier.

00:45:43.098 --> 00:45:43.728
The stones.

00:45:43.988 --> 00:45:46.008
I wrote it with a woman named
Christine Daigle, who's a

00:45:46.078 --> 00:45:47.838
neuropsychologist in real life.

00:45:48.148 --> 00:45:50.428
You know, so she was able to
bring that mindset and that skill

00:45:50.428 --> 00:45:51.908
set into the writing process.

00:45:51.908 --> 00:45:54.118
And, you know, as an author,
I can fake my way through it.

00:45:54.118 --> 00:45:55.408
I can do a bunch of Google searches.

00:45:55.408 --> 00:45:57.398
I can research and I can
kind of create a character.

00:45:57.398 --> 00:46:00.358
That's a neuropsychologist
and make it seem authentic.

00:46:00.568 --> 00:46:04.098
But having somebody who really does
that in real life as part of the writing

00:46:04.098 --> 00:46:05.908
process, you know, you can't beat that.

00:46:06.198 --> 00:46:09.143
So, you know, I'm working with a
ton of co authors just to try and.

00:46:09.143 --> 00:46:09.178
Yeah.

00:46:09.179 --> 00:46:11.588
To strengthen that and, you
know, increases the number of

00:46:11.588 --> 00:46:12.568
books that I'm putting out.

00:46:12.858 --> 00:46:14.188
So it's kind of a win win for everybody.

00:46:14.688 --> 00:46:17.038
Rupert Isaacson: And when you
work with co authors, are you

00:46:17.048 --> 00:46:18.878
doing a work for hire thing?

00:46:19.258 --> 00:46:23.768
Are you paying them a fee and then they
also get a percentage of a royalty?

00:46:23.968 --> 00:46:24.718
How does that work?

00:46:26.123 --> 00:46:28.733
JD Barker: Accounting for something
like this can get really complicated if

00:46:28.733 --> 00:46:32.153
you do it as on a split you know, split
royalty basis, so I just do it as a work

00:46:32.153 --> 00:46:35.343
for hire you know, they're basically
coming in, you know, mainly for the

00:46:35.343 --> 00:46:39.123
exposure and for the learning curve I
can teach them how to write a thriller,

00:46:39.123 --> 00:46:40.673
a solid thriller from start to finish.

00:46:40.673 --> 00:46:43.763
And most of the authors that I bring in,
you know, they're good, but they're not.

00:46:43.884 --> 00:46:46.034
And then the flip side, when
the book comes out, it's coming

00:46:46.034 --> 00:46:47.144
out through Simon and Schuster.

00:46:47.144 --> 00:46:48.294
It's coming out worldwide.

00:46:48.574 --> 00:46:51.004
You know, so they're, they're basically,
they've got a book with their name on

00:46:51.004 --> 00:46:54.444
it and all these places they could never
get to on their own which means when they

00:46:54.444 --> 00:46:57.414
write their next book, you know, it makes
it that much easier because an agent's

00:46:57.414 --> 00:46:59.984
going to look them up and they're going
to see they've had titles, you know,

00:47:00.144 --> 00:47:02.714
at all, you know, all these different
places, all these different languages.

00:47:02.914 --> 00:47:05.424
They've got a proven track record,
which makes it that much easier.

00:47:05.424 --> 00:47:07.474
So, yeah, Again, it's, it's
a win win for everybody.

00:47:07.694 --> 00:47:11.254
Rupert Isaacson: So you give them, you
give them room on the, on the book jacket.

00:47:11.264 --> 00:47:12.604
You say this is, you know, J.

00:47:12.604 --> 00:47:12.734
D.

00:47:12.734 --> 00:47:15.854
Barker with so and so, or J.

00:47:15.854 --> 00:47:15.874
D.

00:47:16.074 --> 00:47:17.074
Barker and so and so.

00:47:17.804 --> 00:47:18.444
JD Barker: Yeah, yeah.

00:47:18.444 --> 00:47:20.474
I make it very clear that it
was written with somebody else.

00:47:20.474 --> 00:47:22.414
I give everybody the credit
that they have coming to them.

00:47:22.684 --> 00:47:25.764
You know, it's coming out of the world
when I, you know, I didn't get that credit

00:47:25.764 --> 00:47:27.234
when my name wasn't even on the cover.

00:47:27.424 --> 00:47:30.014
I'm very cognizant of it to make
sure that they get what they deserve.

00:47:30.474 --> 00:47:31.864
Rupert Isaacson: And how do
you find your co writers?

00:47:31.864 --> 00:47:34.254
That's not, that's not
necessarily an easy thing to find.

00:47:34.779 --> 00:47:35.459
Especially good ones.

00:47:35.609 --> 00:47:36.079
JD Barker: No.

00:47:36.319 --> 00:47:39.039
You know, a lot of them, it's funny
because they'll have a book coming out

00:47:39.059 --> 00:47:42.359
and their agent will send me an ARC
copy or their publisher will send me

00:47:42.359 --> 00:47:44.219
one so I pick up on people that way.

00:47:44.219 --> 00:47:47.649
I meet a lot of authors at writer
conferences a lot of authors in today's

00:47:47.649 --> 00:47:50.299
world, they know that I'm doing this,
so they talk to each other, you know, I

00:47:50.309 --> 00:47:51.819
get a lot of recommendations that way.

00:47:52.099 --> 00:47:53.169
There's never been a shortage.

00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:56.029
It's really about, you know, picking
the quality of the, the names that

00:47:56.029 --> 00:47:58.529
come in, the, the process, you know,
the people that come through my door.

00:47:58.719 --> 00:47:59.389
Rupert Isaacson: Well, indeed.

00:47:59.389 --> 00:48:01.369
And that's not always.

00:48:02.154 --> 00:48:02.874
A given, right?

00:48:02.874 --> 00:48:03.624
Because you

00:48:04.584 --> 00:48:06.204
JD Barker: No, I mean You
don't necessarily know how

00:48:06.204 --> 00:48:07.614
Rupert Isaacson: well
they write until you try.

00:48:08.384 --> 00:48:11.194
JD Barker: I really think that writing
is, you know, like there's a writer's

00:48:11.194 --> 00:48:14.444
gene, you know, like somebody can either
tell a story or they can't tell a story.

00:48:14.494 --> 00:48:15.214
Yeah, yeah.

00:48:15.534 --> 00:48:16.824
I think you're born with that.

00:48:16.894 --> 00:48:19.884
All the basics, the grammar rules,
punctuation, all that kind of

00:48:19.884 --> 00:48:21.134
stuff, like that can be taught.

00:48:21.484 --> 00:48:23.974
But that writer gene, the
storyteller gene, can't be.

00:48:24.204 --> 00:48:25.264
So I really look for that.

00:48:25.264 --> 00:48:29.174
If I find somebody who I feel can tell
a story But need some work on something

00:48:29.174 --> 00:48:31.174
else that I can fix, I'm, I'm all in.

00:48:31.434 --> 00:48:33.944
But, you know, they could have
perfect grammar, perfect punctuation,

00:48:33.944 --> 00:48:36.804
their pacing might be great, but if
they can't tell a story, you know,

00:48:36.804 --> 00:48:39.524
it's like reading a textbook, and
you know, it just, that won't work.

00:48:39.684 --> 00:48:41.524
Rupert Isaacson: So you're looking,
in general, for sort of first

00:48:41.524 --> 00:48:45.974
time authors who might be looking
for a break, would that be right?

00:48:46.024 --> 00:48:49.004
And have they already written
something so that you can test

00:48:49.004 --> 00:48:51.144
whether or not they're any goods?

00:48:51.704 --> 00:48:54.644
JD Barker: Some have, some have written
full books, other ones have only written

00:48:54.644 --> 00:48:58.954
short stories some work in the newspaper
or magazine or, you know, they're doing

00:48:58.954 --> 00:49:02.024
something else online where they're
writing, but not quite at the novel

00:49:02.034 --> 00:49:05.514
stage you know, so that it all kind of
depends if they've got a book out there,

00:49:05.514 --> 00:49:06.954
then obviously I've got an easy sample.

00:49:06.954 --> 00:49:09.314
I can read if they've never
written fiction before.

00:49:09.314 --> 00:49:11.684
I'll give them some kind of an
assignment to see what they come up with.

00:49:12.044 --> 00:49:13.584
You know, everyone is different.

00:49:13.614 --> 00:49:16.494
I don't think one project has come
together the same way as another one.

00:49:16.754 --> 00:49:17.274
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:49:17.664 --> 00:49:20.484
And then in terms of when you are co
authoring, it's an intriguing thing,

00:49:20.484 --> 00:49:24.494
and I think a lot of people listening to
this would, you know, see an opportunity

00:49:24.494 --> 00:49:27.944
there, because there will be among our
listeners some decent writers there who

00:49:27.944 --> 00:49:29.964
maybe could see this as an opportunity.

00:49:30.874 --> 00:49:33.974
Roughly what percentage of the
book would you say they write?

00:49:35.369 --> 00:49:38.919
JD Barker: They, they write almost all of
it and, and that's, you know, on purpose,

00:49:38.959 --> 00:49:41.389
you know, not because I don't want to
do the work, but because if I write it,

00:49:41.389 --> 00:49:42.469
they're not going to learn anything.

00:49:42.819 --> 00:49:44.639
So I hold their hand
through the entire process.

00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:46.129
We come up with the title together.

00:49:46.129 --> 00:49:47.749
We come up with the tagline together.

00:49:47.949 --> 00:49:50.319
We write the backup book blurb, you
know, which is a text that you'd

00:49:50.319 --> 00:49:51.619
find on the back of a paperback.

00:49:51.839 --> 00:49:52.859
I make them do all that stuff.

00:49:52.954 --> 00:49:55.284
Create it, you know, at the
get go before we do anything

00:49:55.304 --> 00:49:56.744
related to the writing process.

00:49:56.994 --> 00:49:59.264
Like, whenever I write a book,
the tagline is always on a

00:49:59.264 --> 00:50:00.514
piece of tape on my monitor.

00:50:00.514 --> 00:50:02.774
I read it every single day
before I start writing.

00:50:03.044 --> 00:50:05.664
Same thing with the, the, about the
book, you know, the back of book text.

00:50:05.684 --> 00:50:08.194
Like, I feel like if you read that
every day before you start writing,

00:50:08.194 --> 00:50:10.804
it's always going to keep you on
task to make sure you write the

00:50:10.804 --> 00:50:11.964
book that you're supposed to write.

00:50:12.274 --> 00:50:14.214
So I forced them to create
all those different parts.

00:50:14.534 --> 00:50:17.134
Once we've got those, I walk them
through the outlining process.

00:50:17.474 --> 00:50:19.644
You know, we, we outline the
book from start to finish.

00:50:19.644 --> 00:50:20.134
And, you know, I.

00:50:20.504 --> 00:50:23.334
I keep we keep going at it and
going at it until it's perfect, you

00:50:23.334 --> 00:50:26.074
know, I basically teach them what
they're what they're doing wrong.

00:50:26.074 --> 00:50:27.504
I tell them what I would change in it.

00:50:27.754 --> 00:50:30.174
You know, we just we keep going back
and forth on it till we get an outline.

00:50:30.174 --> 00:50:30.744
That's solid.

00:50:30.744 --> 00:50:33.254
And then we start the writing process
and I hold their hand chapter by

00:50:33.254 --> 00:50:36.854
chapter sentence by sentence and walk
them through everything that I've

00:50:36.854 --> 00:50:39.834
learned, you know, working with people
like James Patterson and then when

00:50:39.834 --> 00:50:41.504
Rupert Isaacson: you And then
when you If you were to average

00:50:41.504 --> 00:50:45.954
it out, what would you say that co
authoring process takes you per book?

00:50:45.954 --> 00:50:46.774
Is it a year?

00:50:47.104 --> 00:50:47.964
Is it two years?

00:50:47.964 --> 00:50:48.964
Is it six months?

00:50:48.964 --> 00:50:49.504
What is it?

00:50:50.544 --> 00:50:51.654
JD Barker: You know,
everybody's different.

00:50:51.654 --> 00:50:54.734
I got an email this morning from one
where he literally just said, We just

00:50:54.734 --> 00:50:57.734
had our two year anniversary, and here's
the final, you know, finished draft.

00:50:58.124 --> 00:51:00.684
You know, he just went through
like my, my last round of edits and

00:51:00.684 --> 00:51:03.134
comments and stuff, and he just cleaned
it all up and got it back to me.

00:51:03.134 --> 00:51:04.184
So that one took 2 years.

00:51:04.434 --> 00:51:06.204
I've got other ones that
are done in 6 months.

00:51:06.274 --> 00:51:08.744
You know, for me personally, I, I
can write a book in 3 to 4 months.

00:51:09.024 --> 00:51:09.884
Everybody's different.

00:51:09.884 --> 00:51:11.544
The nice thing about
this is there's no rush.

00:51:12.004 --> 00:51:13.784
You know, I, I, I want it to be perfect.

00:51:13.784 --> 00:51:14.644
I want it to be right.

00:51:14.644 --> 00:51:17.304
And I, you know, if it takes 5 years,
if it takes 10 years, I don't care.

00:51:17.304 --> 00:51:19.344
But I, you know, I'm not going
to rush something through just

00:51:19.434 --> 00:51:20.524
for the sake of getting it done.

00:51:20.939 --> 00:51:21.479
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:51:21.539 --> 00:51:25.819
But of course, you know economically
these people presumably they have day

00:51:25.819 --> 00:51:29.669
jobs or side hustles or other things
that they're doing What's the what

00:51:29.669 --> 00:51:31.589
would you say is the average rate like?

00:51:34.664 --> 00:51:36.664
If someone's listening to this, I
think, well, maybe I'd like to have

00:51:36.664 --> 00:51:38.224
a go at that co authoring thing.

00:51:38.584 --> 00:51:41.444
But I'm not yet, you know,
a, a, a very, a known author.

00:51:41.734 --> 00:51:44.304
So my place in the marketplace is
very much in the sort of beginner.

00:51:44.514 --> 00:51:46.294
What, what could somebody expect?

00:51:46.294 --> 00:51:50.044
What's the average that someone
could expect to, to earn in a, for

00:51:50.134 --> 00:51:52.474
a job like that, work for hire?

00:51:52.984 --> 00:51:54.544
JD Barker: I don't want to get
into the economics of it because

00:51:54.544 --> 00:51:55.934
it's different for, for everybody.

00:51:55.934 --> 00:51:59.154
I mean, I approach it based on their,
their financial situation from a time

00:51:59.154 --> 00:52:02.874
standpoint, I would say probably a
year on the short end somebody who's

00:52:02.884 --> 00:52:04.344
not familiar with writing a book.

00:52:04.374 --> 00:52:07.734
You know, if they've only got experience
in nonfiction or, or short stories or

00:52:07.734 --> 00:52:10.364
something like that, it's probably a
year and a half to 2 years from start to

00:52:10.364 --> 00:52:11.904
Rupert Isaacson: finish.

00:52:11.984 --> 00:52:12.334
Right?

00:52:12.404 --> 00:52:14.704
I'm just, just thinking, you know,
some people might think, oh, my

00:52:14.704 --> 00:52:17.004
gosh, would I be able to like,
you know, live for a year on that?

00:52:17.804 --> 00:52:20.674
I would imagine the answer
would probably be no, right?

00:52:20.674 --> 00:52:22.414
They'd have to have other
sources of income, no?

00:52:22.874 --> 00:52:23.354
Probably.

00:52:23.354 --> 00:52:26.074
JD Barker: Yeah, no, I mean, the point
of this isn't, isn't the money you

00:52:26.074 --> 00:52:28.774
know, what this really stemmed from
like years back, I was mentoring a

00:52:28.774 --> 00:52:31.734
lot of authors, you know, I was, you
know, basically teaching them how to do

00:52:31.734 --> 00:52:35.454
this, but they paid me for that and I
felt icky about taking money for this

00:52:35.464 --> 00:52:38.144
kind of thing, but I had to charge
because it kind of weeded people out.

00:52:38.154 --> 00:52:39.214
Well, it also takes time.

00:52:39.284 --> 00:52:39.554
Yeah.

00:52:39.594 --> 00:52:39.914
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:52:40.014 --> 00:52:40.354
JD Barker: Yeah.

00:52:40.354 --> 00:52:43.874
So, but I basically flipped the model
on its head and instead of them paying

00:52:43.874 --> 00:52:47.304
me for, for a mentorship situation,
I pay them for the finished book.

00:52:47.544 --> 00:52:50.314
So they do walk away with something,
you know, rather, rather than, you

00:52:50.314 --> 00:52:51.304
know, what they were doing before.

00:52:51.564 --> 00:52:52.044
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:52:52.494 --> 00:52:55.604
And then you said that you co
authored with James Patterson,

00:52:55.604 --> 00:52:56.644
who's obviously a huge name.

00:52:56.914 --> 00:52:58.384
How did that come about?

00:52:59.744 --> 00:53:00.924
JD Barker: He read The Fourth Monkey.

00:53:00.954 --> 00:53:03.794
We, the publisher sent it to him
hoping to get one of those blurbs,

00:53:03.794 --> 00:53:05.274
you know, one sentence on the back.

00:53:05.654 --> 00:53:08.544
And he, he read it and, and felt
strongly about it and reached out and

00:53:08.554 --> 00:53:09.884
asked if I wanted to co author with him.

00:53:10.364 --> 00:53:10.954
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

00:53:11.024 --> 00:53:15.279
So he also wants to get More books out
there than he himself has time to do.

00:53:15.279 --> 00:53:18.379
So did he some degree mentor
you through that model?

00:53:19.569 --> 00:53:20.599
JD Barker: Yeah, absolutely.

00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:23.789
I mean he's he's been a huge mentor,
you know, not only on the writing

00:53:23.789 --> 00:53:25.209
front, but also the business side

00:53:26.709 --> 00:53:29.389
Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful and
on on his books, would you get

00:53:29.389 --> 00:53:30.819
your book on your your name?

00:53:30.819 --> 00:53:32.129
JD Barker: Yeah, we actually have fine.

00:53:32.129 --> 00:53:32.609
Would it just be

00:53:32.609 --> 00:53:32.879
Rupert Isaacson: them

00:53:33.684 --> 00:53:36.909
JD Barker: in, in the, in our contract,
it, it says that my name has to be printed

00:53:36.909 --> 00:53:38.889
in an equal font size to his mm-hmm

00:53:39.129 --> 00:53:41.439
Um, in, in, in America o other countries.

00:53:41.439 --> 00:53:42.369
It's, it's different.

00:53:42.369 --> 00:53:44.499
I think, I think you're in the uk, right?

00:53:44.799 --> 00:53:49.219
It's so like some places that rule
applies, some places it doesn't, but he

00:53:49.219 --> 00:53:52.629
knows that I'm doing this for exposure,
you know, so he's, he's got no problem

00:53:52.629 --> 00:53:55.639
with, you know, giving me the name
recognition and I bring a pretty big

00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:58.849
audience to every book that we coauthored
together, which, which is helpful.

00:53:59.419 --> 00:54:02.149
Rupert Isaacson: And if somebody wanted
to get into coauthoring obviously

00:54:02.319 --> 00:54:04.219
there's a contract involved, I presume.

00:54:04.699 --> 00:54:07.829
Would you have your agent or your
lawyer draw up that contract?

00:54:07.859 --> 00:54:11.979
Would you encourage them to get
their own Representative to check

00:54:11.989 --> 00:54:14.999
that contract over like what
would your advice be for a newbie?

00:54:16.409 --> 00:54:19.799
JD Barker: Yeah, I would never sign
anything, you know without having you

00:54:19.799 --> 00:54:23.059
know, the proper set of eyes look at it
You know, so even if I send a contract off

00:54:23.069 --> 00:54:26.639
to somebody else I always encourage them
to you know, get their attorney to look at

00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:31.689
it You know, make sure they're comfortable
with all the language in it In a business

00:54:31.689 --> 00:54:32.849
like this you have to you have to be very

00:54:32.849 --> 00:54:35.149
Rupert Isaacson: careful No doubt,
but I mean there's gonna be people

00:54:35.149 --> 00:54:39.289
who are like, you know Barely, you
know, paying the rent, how are they

00:54:39.289 --> 00:54:40.509
going to afford to get an attorney?

00:54:40.509 --> 00:54:45.379
Like how can they, if they're
sort of young and hungry,

00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:51.989
get to grips with the contract without,
without that, or do they have to just

00:54:51.989 --> 00:54:54.469
sort of go get the money from somewhere
and actually find themselves an attorney?

00:54:55.654 --> 00:54:57.264
I, if it were me, I know I would.

00:54:57.434 --> 00:54:57.804
Yeah.

00:54:57.864 --> 00:54:58.164
Yeah.

00:54:58.424 --> 00:55:00.964
JD Barker: If I was, if I was penniless,
I wouldn't put my name on something,

00:55:00.994 --> 00:55:03.944
you know, signing an agreement without
understanding exactly what's there.

00:55:04.304 --> 00:55:06.454
Rupert Isaacson: Because I presume
it also has to be a, an entertainment

00:55:06.454 --> 00:55:08.714
attorney or a media savvy attorney.

00:55:08.714 --> 00:55:10.964
It can't just be sort of your
friend that does real estate

00:55:10.974 --> 00:55:11.884
law or something like that.

00:55:12.544 --> 00:55:13.504
JD Barker: Yeah, exactly.

00:55:13.794 --> 00:55:14.104
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:55:14.204 --> 00:55:14.554
Yeah.

00:55:15.164 --> 00:55:15.574
Okay.

00:55:15.604 --> 00:55:17.124
Well, that's that's fascinating.

00:55:17.224 --> 00:55:19.914
So effectively, yes I mean that
does sort of make you a little bit.

00:55:19.914 --> 00:55:25.324
It sounds less like a publishing house
and more like the old Renaissance

00:55:25.994 --> 00:55:28.754
painter studio idea where you might,
you know, buy a painting that's

00:55:28.754 --> 00:55:32.944
after Raphael or you know or
might even say Raphael Titian, but

00:55:32.964 --> 00:55:37.994
it came from the Studio of that
painted because he couldn't possibly

00:55:37.994 --> 00:55:39.224
paint all the commissions himself.

00:55:39.444 --> 00:55:42.004
So we'd have, you know, teams and
teams of young artists who would

00:55:42.004 --> 00:55:44.654
eventually, of course, make it and then
go off and create their own studios.

00:55:45.644 --> 00:55:45.864
Yeah,

00:55:46.014 --> 00:55:51.064
Let's just quickly give, give everyone all
the, the titles and, and the websites and,

00:55:51.064 --> 00:55:55.524
and social media that they need to find
to get to including your book talk stuff.

00:55:55.844 --> 00:55:58.414
And then if there's just any
closing words you'd like to.

00:55:58.964 --> 00:55:59.584
We'll do that.

00:55:59.594 --> 00:56:04.234
So how, how do people find you if
they want to buy your books, if

00:56:04.234 --> 00:56:08.754
they want to work with you, if they
wanted to protect, to, to approach

00:56:08.754 --> 00:56:09.894
you for co authoring or something.

00:56:10.214 --> 00:56:12.034
How do people do this?

00:56:12.554 --> 00:56:15.314
And give us your title list as well,
so people can find you on Amazon.

00:56:16.364 --> 00:56:16.674
JD Barker: Sure.

00:56:16.704 --> 00:56:19.344
So the easiest place to find
me is JD Barker dot com.

00:56:19.694 --> 00:56:22.464
If you're interested in the coauthoring
thing, there is a contact button

00:56:22.484 --> 00:56:23.874
on there with with a little form.

00:56:23.874 --> 00:56:25.494
Just fill that out and
send your information and

00:56:25.494 --> 00:56:26.504
I'll reach back out to you.

00:56:26.864 --> 00:56:28.374
The books can be found
pretty much everywhere.

00:56:28.374 --> 00:56:29.904
I'm in bookstores all around the world.

00:56:30.174 --> 00:56:31.544
You know, everywhere online.

00:56:31.634 --> 00:56:33.984
I've got a number of titles coming
out over the next couple of months.

00:56:34.254 --> 00:56:38.054
We don't talk about Emma comes out
in February first week of February.

00:56:38.344 --> 00:56:40.984
I've got another book called the writer
that I wrote with James Patterson

00:56:40.984 --> 00:56:42.464
coming out in beginning of March.

00:56:42.734 --> 00:56:44.924
And my next solo title comes out in May.

00:56:44.924 --> 00:56:46.564
It's called something I keep upstairs.

00:56:46.844 --> 00:56:49.214
Which is probably the scariest
book I think I've ever written.

00:56:49.224 --> 00:56:52.204
I, it took me about four years to
actually get that one done because I, I

00:56:52.204 --> 00:56:55.114
kept freaking myself out and had to put
it aside and kind of come back to it.

00:56:55.114 --> 00:56:56.604
But I, I got it done.

00:56:56.604 --> 00:56:57.094
I'm glad that it.

00:56:57.299 --> 00:56:58.679
I'm glad that it's
finished and comes out in

00:56:58.679 --> 00:56:58.989
Rupert Isaacson: May.

00:56:59.489 --> 00:57:00.439
JD Barker: Alright, well I appreciate it.

00:57:00.439 --> 00:57:01.139
Thanks for having me.

00:57:01.419 --> 00:57:02.249
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for coming on.

00:57:02.449 --> 00:57:03.159
It's been a pleasure.

00:57:03.989 --> 00:57:04.089
Bye.

00:57:04.089 --> 00:57:05.527
Bye Thank you for joining us.

00:57:05.557 --> 00:57:07.387
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.

00:57:07.625 --> 00:57:10.625
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