WEBVTT 00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:03.010 It helps to bring out Barbara Stanwyck dressed in nothing but a towel. 00:00:03.290 --> 00:00:06.910 Yes. The Hays Code can go jump. Ha ha ha! 00:00:07.750 --> 00:00:15.190 Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! 00:00:16.690 --> 00:00:18.230 Hi, I'm Mel Killingsworth. 00:00:18.410 --> 00:00:19.370 And I'm Chas Fisher. 00:00:19.830 --> 00:00:23.810 Welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where one Australian and one, 00:00:23.810 --> 00:00:28.810 oh so close, but very American, and emerging filmmaker try to work out what 00:00:28.810 --> 00:00:30.570 makes great screenplays work. 00:00:31.050 --> 00:00:34.470 And today we are doing Noirvember in December. 00:00:34.470 --> 00:00:39.710 This is me being very optimistic that I'm going to get this podcast edited in 00:00:39.710 --> 00:00:43.530 the next two weeks during Christmas madness. 00:00:43.530 --> 00:00:50.430 But to be more specific, this is a prelude of sorts to our upcoming exploration 00:00:50.430 --> 00:00:51.870 into character journeys, 00:00:52.070 --> 00:00:57.010 inspired by Mel's commitment to Noirvember every year, as will be reflected 00:00:57.010 --> 00:01:01.050 in the accompanying Shot Zero elements. 00:01:01.310 --> 00:01:02.430 But specifically... 00:01:03.570 --> 00:01:10.430 I came at this with the lens of what can all stories, rom-coms, 00:01:10.570 --> 00:01:12.550 comedies, thrillers, action, 00:01:13.230 --> 00:01:16.930 dramas, and I do think some of these veer into melodrama, which we'll get into, 00:01:17.170 --> 00:01:21.090 what can any other story learn from film noir? 00:01:21.410 --> 00:01:28.910 And to do that, we have broken Chaz's golden rule of only limiting ourselves to three examples. 00:01:28.910 --> 00:01:33.890 You wanted to break this, for the record. I threw a ton of things at the wall, 00:01:34.090 --> 00:01:35.570 but you wanted to go four. 00:01:35.970 --> 00:01:39.230 And given I've broken my golden rule and we're doing four films, 00:01:39.430 --> 00:01:42.030 this may well be broken up into two episodes. 00:01:42.150 --> 00:01:45.410 So this may well be part one of two episodes. We'll see how we go, 00:01:45.570 --> 00:01:47.810 how efficient Mel and I can be. 00:01:47.950 --> 00:01:48.750 Stay tuned. 00:01:49.810 --> 00:01:56.750 We're also breaking Chaz's not-so-golden rule of doing classic movies as well as more modern movies. 00:01:56.750 --> 00:02:01.670 So, this is for a very particular reason, not just that Mel constantly wants 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:04.210 to slap me when I think somewhat. 00:02:04.210 --> 00:02:07.890 I'm not claiming that we can't learn things from classic movies, 00:02:07.910 --> 00:02:12.390 but it's more like, A, it's been done a lot by other, you know, 00:02:12.530 --> 00:02:17.990 more empirical researchers, more established film historians and academics. 00:02:18.090 --> 00:02:18.750 How dare you? 00:02:18.970 --> 00:02:23.610 And secondly, I do feel that the cinematic language evolves over time. 00:02:24.210 --> 00:02:27.610 To that end, we are doing Noir Through Time. 00:02:27.810 --> 00:02:34.250 So, we are doing 1944's Double Indemnity, written by Billy Wilder and Raymond 00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:36.650 Chandler, from the novel by James M. Cain. 00:02:37.030 --> 00:02:42.510 We are doing the 1973 The Long Goodbye, written by Lee Brackett, 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:44.570 also from the novel by Raymond Chandler. 00:02:44.750 --> 00:02:49.810 And then we are doing from 1995, Devil in the Blue Dress, written by Carl Franklin 00:02:49.810 --> 00:02:51.930 from the novel by Walter Mosley. 00:02:51.930 --> 00:02:58.530 And then finally, 2024's entry, Woman of the Hour, written by Ian McDonald, 00:02:58.830 --> 00:03:05.230 directed by the lead, Anna Kendrick, or A-lead, I think I will venture as we get into it. 00:03:05.350 --> 00:03:06.630 Yeah, A-lead. 00:03:06.630 --> 00:03:10.830 Because there's two specific things. I think we'll find other elements of noir 00:03:10.830 --> 00:03:13.390 as we go through this that will speak to all stories. 00:03:13.770 --> 00:03:18.970 But there were two things that I particularly want to get from in my writing, 00:03:18.970 --> 00:03:24.690 which is a sort of spiritual follow on of sorts of how to make unlikable characters 00:03:24.690 --> 00:03:27.170 likable, which was one of our early episodes. 00:03:27.170 --> 00:03:31.590 But that was all about getting audience kind of hooked into a character. 00:03:31.770 --> 00:03:33.390 It was only the first five pages. 00:03:33.650 --> 00:03:39.710 Whereas this, I want to look at particularly main characters and protagonists doing things. 00:03:40.170 --> 00:03:43.010 Despicable horrific things and yet 00:03:43.010 --> 00:03:46.430 the audience is carried along with them compelled by 00:03:46.430 --> 00:03:52.770 them and how can we have films showing characters lead characters point of view 00:03:52.770 --> 00:03:57.730 characters doing despicable horrible things and not have the world view of the 00:03:57.730 --> 00:04:02.870 film endorse this behavior because i think it's really important i mean i know 00:04:02.870 --> 00:04:06.370 i had someone unironically say we're in a post-woke world, 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:09.890 meaning that we don't have to worry about being woke anymore, 00:04:09.890 --> 00:04:14.250 which I think to them translated as don't have to care about other people's 00:04:14.250 --> 00:04:16.530 feelings and background and existence. 00:04:16.750 --> 00:04:22.810 But parking that there, it is really hard to show really despicable things, 00:04:22.950 --> 00:04:27.710 I think, in stories without certainly been my experience with readers of my 00:04:27.710 --> 00:04:31.270 work feeling uncomfortable. And that's, I go, well, that's what I want you to feel. 00:04:31.350 --> 00:04:37.550 I want you to feel uncomfortable. And finally, related to those two things is 00:04:37.550 --> 00:04:41.590 do these characters in noir, do they change? 00:04:41.770 --> 00:04:46.170 Because that's going to lead into a longer exploration on character arcs. 00:04:46.370 --> 00:04:53.510 Oh, I should have said, Stu has not been fired from the podcast. 00:04:53.570 --> 00:05:01.990 He is continuing to be sucked into being a post-production supervisor. 00:05:02.610 --> 00:05:08.710 Producer credit to be determined on a Hollywood movie, which is exciting, but, 00:05:09.230 --> 00:05:14.070 does not have bandwidth for this, but he will be back in the new year with our 00:05:14.070 --> 00:05:16.490 new exploration young character arcs. 00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:25.030 Okay, Mel, do you have a lens? Before we do the pipeline of going, what is film noir? 00:05:26.350 --> 00:05:27.330 Do you have a lens? 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:30.830 Well, I think that, I mean, I find your lens very interesting. 00:05:31.090 --> 00:05:33.530 Like you had the questions and I said, let's explore that. 00:05:33.750 --> 00:05:37.030 I think for me, i'm fascinated by noir 00:05:37.030 --> 00:05:39.890 essentially every 20 years ish 00:05:39.890 --> 00:05:43.210 resets you know 70s noir is wildly different than 00:05:43.210 --> 00:05:45.870 90s noir which is wildly different than where we are right now there's a 00:05:45.870 --> 00:05:50.230 lot of tech noir um and things like that so i'm really interested in looking 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:55.310 at sure through your lens but also does that change significantly and again 00:05:55.310 --> 00:05:58.770 these are broad generalizations there's going to be exceptions in every era 00:05:58.770 --> 00:06:05.170 but throughout the fact that we chose films that are you know 20 to 30 years apart in every case, 00:06:05.490 --> 00:06:08.350 is there a significant difference in how they're written? 00:06:08.890 --> 00:06:11.230 Everything's cyclical. Everything will come back around again, 00:06:11.490 --> 00:06:15.010 including things, you know, in movies made 100 years ago. 00:06:15.170 --> 00:06:19.190 But, you know, what are the trends in those character things? 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:23.010 And I think the fact as well that we've essentially got a code movie, 00:06:23.190 --> 00:06:25.030 a movie made during the Hays Code, 00:06:25.210 --> 00:06:30.250 and two of them are set during the Hays Code, will also be quite interesting 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:35.970 in terms of the fact is that Hays Code made it more difficult to... 00:06:36.980 --> 00:06:41.840 make your characters unlikable without punishing them. And so talking to your 00:06:41.840 --> 00:06:46.580 point of endorsing worldview, I think that's also very interesting. 00:06:47.700 --> 00:06:53.580 I'm going to be ruthless about not letting this turn into a poor film history podcast. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.400 I have a whole primer on the Hays Code. We can put that in the show notes. 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.320 But at least say what the Hays Code is in a sentence for listeners. 00:07:01.580 --> 00:07:06.060 The Hays Code was a code governing the Motion Picture Association of America 00:07:06.060 --> 00:07:09.780 that said, And if you have certain things, well, first of all, 00:07:09.880 --> 00:07:12.260 you're not allowed to have certain things in your film. 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.680 So you're not allowed to be blatant about homosexuality. You're not about to 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.780 be blatant about murder or things like that. 00:07:18.980 --> 00:07:24.700 Or if you do depict them, the characters must be punished within the narrative. They have to die. 00:07:24.860 --> 00:07:27.080 They have to recant and become a nun. 00:07:27.280 --> 00:07:32.420 You know, they have to have some horrible ill befall them so that you can do 00:07:32.420 --> 00:07:36.860 it. Now, there was a lot of coding as well so that you would hide your character 00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:38.500 and say, oh, you know, they weren't gay. 00:07:38.620 --> 00:07:43.120 They just always smelled like lavender and, you know, lived with a roommate and whatever. 00:07:43.300 --> 00:07:47.100 But the fact is that the code would say, you know, if you commit murder, 00:07:47.820 --> 00:07:52.580 then the narrative has to declare you a bad guy or you have to be imprisoned 00:07:52.580 --> 00:07:56.300 by the end or die by the end or lose your wife in your house and your car and 00:07:56.300 --> 00:07:59.520 your job and all those sorts of things. That was a one long run on sentence. 00:07:59.700 --> 00:08:06.800 Yeah, I will completely take it. And look, here's what I hope people who may have, listeners, 00:08:07.020 --> 00:08:12.160 if you have zero interest in film noir, I'm hoping you still tune in for this 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:20.520 because the fact that this collection of ideas and themes and stylistic and 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:26.240 narrative approaches to story have survived a hundred years, 00:08:26.440 --> 00:08:33.460 despite there being very different social mores at these different times, I think is testament to, 00:08:34.290 --> 00:08:41.430 what noir is so hopefully that will segue us neatly into what is film noir. 00:08:41.430 --> 00:08:47.190 Uh what is oh that's do i have to do this in one sentence as well because we're 00:08:47.190 --> 00:08:52.370 in trouble i think film noir is a genre right but it is often is it a genre 00:08:52.370 --> 00:08:57.210 well yes as we were discussing as we were looking through this thing it is often 00:08:57.210 --> 00:09:00.570 not always but often a secondary or tertiary genre okay. 00:09:01.410 --> 00:09:02.150 I'll allow it. 00:09:02.410 --> 00:09:06.830 It is also, I think, one of the genres most made up of style, 00:09:06.990 --> 00:09:10.910 which is why, yes, we are looking at scripts. We are looking at things like that. 00:09:11.250 --> 00:09:14.450 However, there is a lot to do with looks and things as well. 00:09:14.630 --> 00:09:17.910 Your dialogue, your plot, your tropes. 00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:18.730 Framing. 00:09:19.350 --> 00:09:19.550 Are all. 00:09:19.930 --> 00:09:20.330 Lighting. 00:09:20.690 --> 00:09:24.390 Yeah, within that. But so is your framing and your lighting and your look of 00:09:24.390 --> 00:09:26.090 things and your staging. 00:09:27.070 --> 00:09:29.690 All of that is involved. But I do think it is a genre. However, 00:09:29.870 --> 00:09:34.050 it is often like you would have a drama or a mystery or a thriller, 00:09:34.050 --> 00:09:37.070 and then noir is sort of your second or third sort of genre. 00:09:37.490 --> 00:09:41.390 All right. Now, my kids were like, what is this film noir that you're watching 00:09:41.390 --> 00:09:43.690 all these movies about, Dad, and keep talking about? 00:09:44.610 --> 00:09:52.290 I looked up a 10-minute YouTube video from a film historian to show my kids what film noir was. 00:09:52.290 --> 00:10:03.490 And it focused very much on when it was clearly a genre in that it wasn't just a style. 00:10:03.690 --> 00:10:08.350 And not to say that it's just a style now, but those movies in and around 1940s, 00:10:08.410 --> 00:10:11.310 there was just a huge number of them. 00:10:11.410 --> 00:10:14.810 It was like a sought after cinematic experience. 00:10:15.670 --> 00:10:19.530 And from this historian's point of view, it had several things. 00:10:19.530 --> 00:10:23.110 it had crime it had 00:10:23.110 --> 00:10:26.230 to feature characters trapped by their 00:10:26.230 --> 00:10:29.270 own transgression and often that being 00:10:29.270 --> 00:10:33.750 trapped was represented visually so that's around the framing people might know 00:10:33.750 --> 00:10:38.850 the classic uh you know venetian blind shades even if they don't have never 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:43.510 watched a single film noir they'll know that feeling and i think those were 00:10:43.510 --> 00:10:47.510 the main ones there there are narrative tropes there's usually because there's a crime, 00:10:47.650 --> 00:10:50.270 there's usually a detective character, not necessarily, 00:10:50.710 --> 00:10:55.210 very rarely, in fact, a police officer, often not a police officer at all. 00:10:55.570 --> 00:10:57.350 Noir believes in ACAB. 00:10:58.290 --> 00:10:58.930 Certainly. 00:10:59.330 --> 00:11:03.090 But often a private detective or someone who's investigating themselves because 00:11:03.090 --> 00:11:05.270 the police won't investigate, et cetera. 00:11:06.310 --> 00:11:10.370 So there's usually a detective character, there's often, it's become a cliche 00:11:10.370 --> 00:11:12.550 now, but at the time, it wasn't. 00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:19.450 Femme fatales, Madonna whore kind of dichotomy around female characters. 00:11:19.950 --> 00:11:24.430 And I think that ACAB perspective, for me, 00:11:24.510 --> 00:11:27.870 is perpetuated by how does the world, 00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:31.410 because often these detectives are uncovering 00:11:31.410 --> 00:11:35.110 forces that they then subsequently at 00:11:35.110 --> 00:11:38.390 the end are insurmountable for the the 00:11:38.390 --> 00:11:41.870 detective so often they had kind of tragic or 00:11:41.870 --> 00:11:48.030 bittersweet endings and like I'm not trying to be too specific here but I do 00:11:48.030 --> 00:11:53.050 we were having a discussion and I think they're different to quote-unquote gangster 00:11:53.050 --> 00:11:57.510 movies which are and corruption movies which are often about the rise and fall 00:11:57.510 --> 00:11:59.150 of someone within a crime world. 00:11:59.290 --> 00:12:04.090 I think those can be noir, but that narrative arc is not the same. 00:12:04.290 --> 00:12:09.070 And I think that's why I want to come down to do these characters in these different 00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:12.350 movies demonstrate change? If so, how do they change? 00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:16.570 What's their relationship with their own crimes, their own transgressions? 00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:20.950 What's their relationship with the rules of the world around them? 00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:25.390 Well, and again, to be very, very, very broad, Often, gangsters are about the 00:12:25.390 --> 00:12:28.430 gang and the mob or the people within that. 00:12:29.070 --> 00:12:33.310 And noir is more interested, very broadly speaking, in... 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:40.720 the system and the system being broader society, being the police, 00:12:41.260 --> 00:12:47.020 being, you know, culture at large and how you can or cannot necessarily win with it. 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:52.740 Although I'm very, I'm not disagreeing with that, but I feel that double indemnity 00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:57.180 as our first one is not really interested in that at all. 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:03.680 It's interested in societal mores around things for sure, but it is actually 00:13:03.680 --> 00:13:10.620 quite like personal and insular absolutely and again which is why i said broadly and was talking. 00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:11.980 You know why. 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:13.960 A lot of gangster films are not. 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:14.760 Yeah noir. 00:13:14.760 --> 00:13:18.660 Per se because yeah dada lindemnally has that but it also has a lot of the other 00:13:18.660 --> 00:13:22.400 um tropes if you i think noir is such a trope genre. 00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:28.620 Yeah oh voice over is another classic part of the certainly the 40s element that's. 00:13:28.620 --> 00:13:33.680 Why we picked veronica mars for our voiceover episode it's noir it's got the voiceover. 00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:37.260 So i think there were lots of kind 00:13:37.260 --> 00:13:40.240 of tropes that came out of noir and have 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.020 survived and their references and they're 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:45.800 often put over the top of other like their 00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:48.820 stylistic things their cues for an audience 00:13:48.820 --> 00:13:53.100 to feel a certain way or their you know cinematic shorthand but they could be 00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:59.440 put into other genres whereas i I think a lot of really successful neo-noir 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:05.240 are not necessarily doing fedoras and Venetian blinds and rain-slicked city 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.620 streets and chiaroscuro. 00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:14.840 They might be doing none of that and yet be firmly in noir from a more worldview 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:15.980 character perspective. 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:21.420 This is me working really hard because I'm hoping there'll be a listener out 00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:24.700 there who's like, fuck noir, I never want to see a noir in my whole life, 00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:27.520 and I'm trying to get them through this episode. 00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:30.120 But also they have. They have seen it. 00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:35.800 Yes. So the running list of, I was running through every film that we'd ever 00:14:35.800 --> 00:14:39.820 analyzed on Draft Zero, and I was asking Mel, noir or not noir? 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.300 There were a couple that were very borderline or that I haven't seen in a report of contention, but. 00:14:45.260 --> 00:14:49.620 But this is where we got to. The Nice Guys, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, 00:14:49.900 --> 00:14:54.140 Destroyer, Michael Clayton, Emily the Criminal, Thief, Seven, 00:14:54.500 --> 00:14:58.660 No Country for Old Men, You Are Never Really Here, Killing Them Softly, 00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:04.200 In the Bedroom, Fargo, Zodiac, Training Day, Hell or High Water, 00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:07.500 Gone Girl, Shutter Island, Sicario, 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:12.300 Eastern Promises, A History of Violence, The Disappearance of Alice Creed, 00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:19.020 Nightcrawler, The Untouchables, Reservoir Dogs, and prisoners and i mean we 00:15:19.020 --> 00:15:26.360 could throw blade runner in there as well the matrix i feel has definite noir stylistic visual cues. 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.240 Well the wachowski's film that got them the ability to make matrix is they made 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:36.500 one of the most quintessential and like prototypical noirs of all time and that 00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:41.460 was you know bound yeah bound which got them the blank check to do the matrix 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:45.660 And it certainly has a lot of sci-fi, 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.940 futuristic noir elements for sure. 00:15:48.670 --> 00:15:52.250 So from all those films, people can go, oh yeah, I can see maybe the visual 00:15:52.250 --> 00:15:55.130 elements or maybe like that didn't strike me as noir at all. 00:15:55.290 --> 00:16:00.150 Like in the bedroom, it comes across as a melodrama potentially, 00:16:00.150 --> 00:16:06.750 but it is about a grieving man discovering what is the extent of his humanity 00:16:06.750 --> 00:16:12.470 and transgressing and getting away with it and reassessing his role with his 00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:15.230 own morality at the end without, 00:16:15.230 --> 00:16:20.950 you know, let the justice system do its thing and did not feel that justice had been served. 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:26.310 And directly confronts the societal systems that make people feel what is quote 00:16:26.310 --> 00:16:29.490 unquote right or wrong or justice or not, et cetera. 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:29.890 Yeah. 00:16:30.090 --> 00:16:30.310 You know. 00:16:30.850 --> 00:16:35.330 All right. I feel like we've done pretty well. As far as Drive Zero intros go, 00:16:35.490 --> 00:16:36.350 we're not doing too badly. 00:16:36.510 --> 00:16:38.850 Shall we jump in to Double Indemnity? 00:16:39.170 --> 00:16:39.590 Yes. 00:16:42.050 --> 00:16:47.450 I killed Dietrichson. Me, Walter Neff, insurance agent, 35 years old, 00:16:47.510 --> 00:16:48.850 unmarried, no visible scars. 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:52.160 Until a while ago, that is. 00:16:54.240 --> 00:17:00.720 Yeah, I killed him. I killed him for money and for a woman. It all began last May. 00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:04.880 I was thinking about that dame upstairs and the way she had looked at me. 00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:07.680 And I wanted to see her again, close. 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:10.720 Without that silly staircase between us. 00:17:11.780 --> 00:17:15.100 How could I have known that murder can sometimes smell like honeysuckle? 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.920 I can't stand it anymore. What if they do hang me? 00:17:19.580 --> 00:17:22.360 They're not going to hang you, baby. It's better than going on this way. 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:25.860 They're not going to hang you. Because you're going to do it and I'm going to help you. 00:17:26.580 --> 00:17:28.700 Yes, from the moment they met, it was murder. 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:33.840 Always behind them with his devilish hunches and his brilliant brain was Keyes. 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.620 The murder's never perfect. All this comes apart sooner or later. 00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:38.880 And where two people are concerned is usually sooner. 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:41.880 Could they get away from him and his relentless pursuit? 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:44.640 And could they get away with murder? 00:17:45.560 --> 00:17:49.440 Okay, Mel, do you want to summarize what Double Indemnity is about? 00:17:49.900 --> 00:17:56.580 Double Indemnity is about an insurance salesman who meets a hottie and does 00:17:56.580 --> 00:17:58.740 terrible things for her. 00:17:59.040 --> 00:18:04.740 And sadly, it causes a giant rift between him and his boyfriend, and then he dies. 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:11.540 That is the plot. It is your prototypical record scratch, I bet you're wondering how I got here. 00:18:11.540 --> 00:18:19.180 And then it opens on this man stumbling into his insurance office and starting 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:23.640 a tape recording and beginning to monologue into it and saying, 00:18:23.900 --> 00:18:28.580 you know, by the way, I confess I've done these terrible things. 00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:32.320 I'm about to die. And then it flashes back and starts telling the story from the beginning. 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:33.840 Office memorandum. 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:40.490 Walter Neff to Barton Keyes, claims manager. Los Angeles, July 16th, 1938. 00:18:41.790 --> 00:18:45.130 Dear Keyes, suppose you'll call this a confession when you hear it. 00:18:45.950 --> 00:18:49.170 Well, I don't like the word confession. I just want to set you right about something 00:18:49.170 --> 00:18:51.050 you couldn't see because it was smack up against your nose. 00:18:51.870 --> 00:18:54.970 You think you're such a hot potato as a claims manager, such a wolf on a phony 00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:58.770 claim. Maybe you are. But let's take a look at that Diedrichsen claim. 00:18:59.630 --> 00:19:02.450 Accident and double indemnity. You were pretty good in there for a while, 00:19:02.530 --> 00:19:05.330 Keyes. You said it wasn't an accident. Check. 00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:09.530 He said it wasn't suicide. Check. He said it was murder. 00:19:11.600 --> 00:19:11.880 Check. 00:19:12.260 --> 00:19:15.060 You know this ends very badly for him. 00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:21.160 I'm going to proverbially bury the lead in that the key final confrontation 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:25.280 of the film has Fred McMurray's character. 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:26.160 Walter. 00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:30.680 The insurance salesman. He's going to the house of said hottie. 00:19:30.820 --> 00:19:34.180 Barbara Sandwick, played by Felix Dietrichs and a famous name. 00:19:34.500 --> 00:19:38.000 Who we're fairly clear at this point that he is going to murder her. 00:19:38.280 --> 00:19:41.260 That's his intention. he's worked his way through 00:19:41.260 --> 00:19:43.920 and we're going to come back to this but 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.440 the reason i'm just putting a pin in it now is that he 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:54.120 meets nino who was going to be the fall guy was going to be the patsy for all 00:19:54.120 --> 00:19:57.400 the crimes and misdemeanors that these two were going to commit to together 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:06.280 and walter deliberately saves nino which i think is important and then barbara shoots walter, 00:20:06.800 --> 00:20:11.380 Wings him Well, sufficiently to pretty seriously hurt him But, you know I. 00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:12.900 Think he's gut shot or like ribs. 00:20:12.900 --> 00:20:15.420 Or something like that I feel it's like top of the lung Yeah. 00:20:15.700 --> 00:20:17.280 Lung is bad Well. 00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:21.820 In the end he can't like physically move From that wound So, 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:27.620 something internal is going on That's not good But she can't bring herself to, 00:20:28.360 --> 00:20:33.400 Do a kill shot And they have a discussion about how she can't Bring herself to do that. 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:35.260 Why don't you shoot again, baby? 00:20:36.280 --> 00:20:38.180 Don't tell me it's because you've been in love with me all this time. 00:20:40.060 --> 00:20:44.860 No, I never loved you, Walter, not you or anybody else. I'm rotten to the heart. 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:48.280 I used you just as you said. That's all you ever meant to me. 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:55.160 Until a minute ago, when I couldn't fire that second shot. 00:20:57.600 --> 00:21:02.680 I never thought that could happen to me. Sorry, baby, I'm not buying. 00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:05.240 I'm not asking you to buy. Just hold me close. 00:21:16.150 --> 00:21:20.150 If I'm not mistaken, he shoots her twice because she can't shoot him the second 00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:22.330 time, which would have finished him off. 00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:26.950 She couldn't shoot him the second time to finish him off. He shoots her twice. He finishes her off. 00:21:27.130 --> 00:21:30.950 And also, again, Hays Code, she's dead. She has to die. 00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:36.210 Yeah. So there's no voiceover, but 00:21:36.210 --> 00:21:41.790 there is flashbacks from him literally recording his recounting of this. 00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:44.190 It's a diegetic voiceover, really. 00:21:44.190 --> 00:21:46.810 Absolutely it is, but I do think it's an important distinction. 00:21:47.230 --> 00:21:50.790 Because it's diegetic, it has an intended audience. 00:21:51.070 --> 00:21:57.070 It is not the detective in their own head or in the way that we talked in our 00:21:57.070 --> 00:22:04.350 voiceover episode. And that is to the third lead in this film. 00:22:04.350 --> 00:22:08.350 Barton Keyes, played by Edward G. Robinson, who's just all over noir. 00:22:08.890 --> 00:22:11.930 And so, yeah, the idea is that Walter is confessing and he says, 00:22:12.050 --> 00:22:16.870 you know, you can use this as evidence, but he is directly talking to Barton Keyes. 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:20.730 He is saying this to him. And then Barton shows up at the end right before he 00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:24.730 dies and lights his last cigarette, you know, and lets him have a cigarette before he dies. 00:22:24.850 --> 00:22:29.770 And so he's giving this to his and I say boyfriend only half jokingly. 00:22:29.770 --> 00:22:34.650 Like, it's clearly coded that they are codependent, in love with each other, 00:22:34.770 --> 00:22:36.530 whether you read that as romantic or not. 00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:40.310 Absolutely in love with each other. They are also co-workers at this insurance company. 00:22:40.510 --> 00:22:45.330 And Barton has sort of been working it so that, you know, Walter can essentially 00:22:45.330 --> 00:22:47.910 step up in the company and take over his role. 00:22:47.930 --> 00:22:50.830 And there's all these, you know, complex. 00:22:50.950 --> 00:22:53.410 And there's also these scenes, right, where Barton's like, well, 00:22:53.550 --> 00:22:55.990 I tried having a wife and it just wasn't for me. 00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:59.670 You know, they're lighting each other cigarettes in tons of scenes. 00:22:59.770 --> 00:23:01.290 They're clearly intimate. 00:23:01.690 --> 00:23:04.030 However you want to read that, go for it. 00:23:04.210 --> 00:23:05.850 Yes. So Keyes... 00:23:06.190 --> 00:23:11.430 I think it's a sign of the times, right, that the hero, the detective character, 00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:15.010 Keyes, is A, not neither the protagonist nor the point of view character. 00:23:15.010 --> 00:23:16.810 He's very much the antagonist of the movie. 00:23:16.970 --> 00:23:19.610 He's like the shark chasing these two down. 00:23:20.010 --> 00:23:22.210 Not that he knows it's his friend. 00:23:22.210 --> 00:23:25.030 He's chasing whoever's done this thing. Yeah. 00:23:25.150 --> 00:23:30.950 But it just bemused me that the hero of a film would be like an insurance investigator 00:23:30.950 --> 00:23:34.470 who prides himself on denying insurance claims. 00:23:34.470 --> 00:23:39.350 It's denying, yep, and not a cop, again, very crucial, but also the one who's 00:23:39.350 --> 00:23:43.470 like, well, there's all these people cheating the system, and I can see through them. 00:23:43.890 --> 00:23:47.670 Now look, Arlopis, every month hundreds of claims come to this desk. 00:23:47.830 --> 00:23:50.090 Some of them are phonies, and I know which ones. 00:23:50.270 --> 00:23:53.170 How do I know? Because my little man tells me. 00:23:54.770 --> 00:23:59.310 That little man, that little man in here. Every time one of these ponies comes 00:23:59.310 --> 00:24:01.550 along, he ties knots in my stomach. I can't eat. 00:24:01.750 --> 00:24:05.710 And the reason he can't see through Walter, as Walter says to him on tape, 00:24:05.730 --> 00:24:08.970 is I'm too close to you. That's the only reason you didn't catch me. 00:24:09.110 --> 00:24:12.790 You got everything right except who it was and because we are too close. 00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:18.330 You know why you couldn't figure this one, Keyes? I'll tell you. 00:24:19.710 --> 00:24:21.670 Because the guy you were looking for was too close. 00:24:23.350 --> 00:24:27.270 Right across the desk from me. Closer than that, Walter. 00:24:31.730 --> 00:24:32.790 I love you too. 00:24:35.670 --> 00:24:40.050 And on top of that, like Walter could have got away with it. 00:24:40.290 --> 00:24:42.810 And this is another decision that I want to explore. 00:24:42.930 --> 00:24:43.510 Define it. 00:24:44.030 --> 00:24:46.690 Okay. Wouldn't have got the money. 00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:47.150 Right. 00:24:47.370 --> 00:24:53.550 So Walter and Barbara together have arranged, killed her husband. 00:24:53.770 --> 00:24:54.270 Yes. 00:24:54.270 --> 00:24:58.890 Faked his death as a train accident because train accidents under the life insurance 00:24:58.890 --> 00:25:04.190 also forged a life insurance policy first uh got him to sign it under under 00:25:04.190 --> 00:25:06.330 fraudulent pretences this is chas. 00:25:06.330 --> 00:25:09.810 The lawyer coming out it is it's it's very clever how they do it but. 00:25:09.810 --> 00:25:10.590 Yes technically. 00:25:10.590 --> 00:25:15.530 The husband knows it exists but they forged his you know final signature on 00:25:15.530 --> 00:25:17.350 the policy they got etc yeah. 00:25:17.350 --> 00:25:22.750 And they would get double indemnity they'll get a double payout on a very low 00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:28.290 risk low likelihood low likelihood accident which was train so i don't want 00:25:28.290 --> 00:25:31.190 to get necessarily into the machinations maybe we can because i do think there 00:25:31.190 --> 00:25:33.690 is a lot of noir where it is, 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.680 there is like reveling in minutiae details. 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:42.540 Yes the complexity of those plot bits red. 00:25:42.540 --> 00:25:46.660 Herrings tangents that may never get resolved. 00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:50.100 Sometimes famously yeah the. 00:25:50.100 --> 00:25:51.600 Big sleep comes to mind. 00:25:51.600 --> 00:25:55.620 Well right like you have these noir plots where you're like actually if you 00:25:55.620 --> 00:26:00.000 sit and think about it for 30 seconds none of this works like the maltese falcon 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.160 right which is quote unquote the quintessential You're like, wait, what? 00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:08.360 But just because there's so many threads and so many machinations and so many 00:26:08.360 --> 00:26:12.660 moving parts and things, sometimes you can kind of just bluster your way through it. 00:26:13.060 --> 00:26:16.660 This, however, airtight, airtight. The plot is mwah. 00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:22.520 Keyes has a running line that Walter does quote back at him that the people 00:26:22.520 --> 00:26:28.240 who commit murder are on like a trolley, like a fixed track that is inevitably 00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:30.640 going to their moral corruption. 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:35.240 And with that moral corruption comes their undoing, as it were. 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:39.020 And that is how the film plays out. But it's said at the very beginning and 00:26:39.020 --> 00:26:43.780 we're opening on a guy who's been shot confessing to a crime. 00:26:43.840 --> 00:26:45.360 We don't know the details of it. 00:26:46.340 --> 00:26:50.180 Confessing to a crime and confessing to his moral degradation through having 00:26:50.180 --> 00:26:56.440 committed this crime and a second crime and considering a third and fourth crime, etc. Mm hmm. 00:26:57.100 --> 00:27:02.220 So, first of all, I think while there's no voiceover, I think as a lesson that 00:27:02.220 --> 00:27:05.860 I'm taking from this, how to make it compelling, just tell the audience up front 00:27:05.860 --> 00:27:09.780 that the crime has happened, that the transgression or the sin or whatever you 00:27:09.780 --> 00:27:11.380 want to call it has happened. 00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:16.900 Because then it becomes a how done it and a why done it, not a who done it. 00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:17.420 Yep. 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.700 And so you are immediately told by this film that we're going to be reveling 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:24.660 in how and why these characters do this. 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:28.600 Right. How did you get to this point? Because then it flashes back to him basically 00:27:28.600 --> 00:27:30.780 being like a Boy Scout, right? 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:35.360 Like he's got this job and he's working his way up and, you know, 00:27:35.560 --> 00:27:39.880 he's and you go, wait, wait a second. Like the juxtaposition is stark. 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:46.260 So how did you get from that to this so quickly? Well, he met a hottie home amongst us, et cetera. 00:27:46.260 --> 00:27:53.600 And when he meets said hottie he immediately accuses her to her face of don't 00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:57.420 ask me to commit insurance fraud and help you murder your husband like in the 00:27:57.420 --> 00:28:03.400 first meeting and she's like who me but also i would like to sleep with you yeah and. 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:04.880 He's like oh well in that case. 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:10.920 I want to ask you something walter could i get an accident policy for him without 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:15.460 bothering him at It would make it easier for you, too. You wouldn't even have to talk to him. 00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:20.820 I have a little allowance of my own. I could pay for it, and he needn't know anything about it. 00:28:21.260 --> 00:28:24.180 Why shouldn't he know? Because he doesn't want accident insurance. 00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:27.960 He's superstitious about it. A lot of people lie on it. It's funny, 00:28:28.060 --> 00:28:32.420 isn't it? If there was a way to get it like that, all the worry would be over. 00:28:33.080 --> 00:28:35.580 See what I mean, Walter? Sure, I got good eyesight. 00:28:36.560 --> 00:28:38.600 You mean you want him to have the policy without him knowing it? 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:41.560 That means without the insurance company knowing that he doesn't know it. 00:28:42.340 --> 00:28:46.100 That's the setup, isn't it? Is there anything wrong with it? No, I think it's lovely. 00:28:46.700 --> 00:28:49.200 Then if some dark, wet night, that crown block did fall on him. 00:28:49.220 --> 00:28:51.600 What crown block? Only sometimes it can't quite make it on its own. 00:28:51.620 --> 00:28:52.520 It has to have a little help. 00:28:53.340 --> 00:28:55.920 I don't know what you're talking about. Of course it doesn't have to be a crown 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.580 block. It can be a car backing over and we could fall out of the upstairs window. 00:28:59.340 --> 00:29:02.540 Any little thing like that, just so it's a morgue job. Are you crazy? 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:06.920 And that is really all that it takes. He can't get her out of his mind. 00:29:07.060 --> 00:29:07.200 Yep. 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:14.260 And where I think this film focuses less on the systems and the forces that 00:29:14.260 --> 00:29:18.680 they're up against than the other films that we're studying in this episode 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:25.980 is it provides zero backstory and motivation for these two. She's not beaten. 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.540 No, it gives you a little bit of hers. And she's rotten from the start. 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:29.900 Yeah. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.280 Because she's only with her current husband because she murdered his ex-wife on her. Well, you know. 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.760 It does get revealed later on. But in that initial meeting, right? 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:39.420 Sure, sure, sure. 00:29:39.540 --> 00:29:43.440 And even early on, it's like, he doesn't care for me. He doesn't love me. 00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:46.080 That is about the extent of his transgression. 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.880 Right. Oh, the motive is, I would like to sleep with you. 00:29:50.120 --> 00:29:50.320 Yeah. 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:51.580 That's it. That's all they need. 00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:56.900 But he doesn't have any, like, I'm poor. I need this money. 00:29:57.760 --> 00:30:02.540 I am oppressed by my job. I hate the insurance industry. There's none of that. 00:30:02.540 --> 00:30:07.600 Well, there is a little bit of the idea that he's bored. 00:30:07.840 --> 00:30:08.040 Yes. 00:30:08.220 --> 00:30:13.800 Right. The idea that this nine to five, oh, I'm about to get promoted to a thing 00:30:13.800 --> 00:30:16.080 where I won't be going out door to door anymore. 00:30:16.260 --> 00:30:20.020 I'll be getting more money, but I'll only be able to sit behind a desk and my 00:30:20.020 --> 00:30:23.660 soul won't be able to take that. I want to go out. 00:30:23.800 --> 00:30:26.100 And they're like, well, no, this is more money. It's more prestige. 00:30:26.100 --> 00:30:27.400 It's better. It's easier. 00:30:27.620 --> 00:30:31.720 And he's like, but I'll be bored. And so there is a little bit of that idea 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:40.000 of, well, I am chasing something that normal societal quote unquote success doesn't give me. 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:45.520 I think he is, I mean, he knows what a gun Keyes is. He knows who he's going 00:30:45.520 --> 00:30:47.560 to be up against by trying this, right? 00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:49.580 Yeah, yeah. It's a challenge. 00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.380 And knows he's not smarter than Keyes from the very beginning, 00:30:53.380 --> 00:30:58.060 and yet still thinks that he knows enough to be able to get away with. 00:30:58.120 --> 00:30:59.400 There's definitely a cat and mouse. 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:03.200 I mean, he's not 100% thinking with his brain at that point. 00:31:03.300 --> 00:31:03.520 Sure. 00:31:03.620 --> 00:31:06.280 But yes, he does. He's like, well, maybe I know you well enough. 00:31:06.280 --> 00:31:11.540 Maybe you've taught me enough that I can, you know, get this by you. 00:31:11.860 --> 00:31:16.040 It was a hot afternoon and I can still remember the smell of honeysuckle all along that street. 00:31:17.280 --> 00:31:20.640 How could I have known that murder can sometimes smell like honeysuckle? 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:24.680 Maybe you would have known, Keyes, the minute she mentioned accident insurance. 00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:27.760 But I didn't. I felt like a million. 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:34.640 But I guess my broad point is, because they've told you that the transgression 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:36.540 already happened, You don't need 00:31:36.540 --> 00:31:40.220 to carry the audience along with a pure introduction into this character. 00:31:40.700 --> 00:31:44.520 That first decision to do wrong, you don't have to put the work in, 00:31:44.620 --> 00:31:47.760 in terms of backstory or given circumstances. 00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:48.240 Right. 00:31:48.360 --> 00:31:52.220 To get the audience across that line of that transgression because we know it's coming. 00:31:52.800 --> 00:31:52.920 Yep. 00:31:53.040 --> 00:31:58.240 So when he flicks between meeting one and meeting two, you're like, okay, I'm on board. 00:31:58.340 --> 00:31:58.560 Sure. 00:31:58.720 --> 00:31:58.880 Right? 00:31:59.040 --> 00:32:01.960 It helps to bring out Barbara Stanwyck dressed in nothing but a towel. 00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:10.240 Yes. Hayes Code can go jump. all right have we got enough to get into the the 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:12.860 three questions i think so all right, 00:32:13.450 --> 00:32:18.690 So, I think we're kind of already answering how do the protagonists in this 00:32:18.690 --> 00:32:24.050 story do horrible things and yet we're compelled by them right until the very end. 00:32:24.250 --> 00:32:27.730 I think because, like, the point of view character, which is clearly Walter, 00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:31.190 like, we start with him, he's giving the voiceover, etc. 00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:34.990 He starts as a guy, I'm just a guy, I just have a job, etc. 00:32:35.310 --> 00:32:39.090 And there's a lot of, oh, well, there but for the grace of God, right? 00:32:39.290 --> 00:32:45.050 Like, I could be, he's an everyman. I could be this guy. I could be tempted. 00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:48.030 He's very charming. He's witty. 00:32:48.510 --> 00:32:51.890 Oh, Fred McMurray is fantastic in this. 00:32:52.010 --> 00:32:55.390 And also, Fred McMurray and Barbara Stanwyck. Okay, just real quick, 00:32:55.490 --> 00:32:57.830 tiny little detour. They've also done a rom-com together. 00:32:58.030 --> 00:33:02.690 They've also done their films together. Their chemistry is off the charts. 00:33:02.710 --> 00:33:06.990 Yeah, we will be accepting here the speeding exchange. 00:33:08.270 --> 00:33:12.230 Again, you want to talk about writing, like a perfect two minutes of writing. 00:33:13.050 --> 00:33:14.630 I wish you'd tell me it was engraved on that anklet. 00:33:16.810 --> 00:33:22.370 Just my name. As, for instance? Phyllis. Phyllis, huh? 00:33:23.430 --> 00:33:27.730 I think I like that. But you're not sure. I'd have to drive it around the block a couple of times. 00:33:29.260 --> 00:33:33.220 Mr. Neff, why don't you drop by tomorrow evening around 8.30? He'll be in then. Who? 00:33:33.980 --> 00:33:37.640 My husband. You were anxious to talk to him, weren't you? Yeah, 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.240 I was, but I'm sort of getting over the idea, if you know what I mean. 00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:44.940 There's a speed limit in this state, Mr. Neff. Forty-five miles an hour. 00:33:45.340 --> 00:33:48.180 How fast was I going, officer? I'd say around 90. 00:33:48.800 --> 00:33:50.680 Suppose you get down off your motorcycle and give me a ticket. 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.500 Suppose I let you off with a warning this time. Suppose it doesn't take. 00:33:55.320 --> 00:33:58.880 Suppose I have to whack you over the knuckles. Suppose I bust out crying and 00:33:58.880 --> 00:33:59.660 put my head in your shoulder. 00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:04.880 Suppose you try putting it on my husband's shoulder. That tears it. 00:34:06.100 --> 00:34:10.320 8.30 tomorrow evening, then. That's what I suggested. You'll be here, too? 00:34:10.640 --> 00:34:14.280 I guess so. I usually am. Same chair, same perfume, same anklet. 00:34:14.680 --> 00:34:16.360 I wonder if I know what you mean. 00:34:17.620 --> 00:34:18.880 I wonder if you wonder. 00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:26.740 And, like, their chemistry is there. So he comes on, and he's dressed nicely. 00:34:27.060 --> 00:34:30.040 great suit but again every man so you're like great i'm putting myself 00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:32.920 in your shoes i could be you i have 00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:35.760 a normal job i i want a normal life i want a 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.440 little bit more than life is giving me i meet a hottie and 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:45.120 now what so the barbara shamwick character is yes she's the co-lead but we're 00:34:45.120 --> 00:34:51.400 never in her shoes we're always in walter's shoes yeah and saying oh somebody 00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:55.520 else could tempt me to this because we always want to imagine ourselves as the 00:34:55.520 --> 00:34:57.640 hero right or as the good guy or whatever. 00:34:57.820 --> 00:35:01.120 Well, Walter wants to be the good guy. He wants to be the hero. 00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:03.120 He's striving. He just gets tripped up. 00:35:03.200 --> 00:35:06.020 Oh, tripped up. Does he want to be the hero? 00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:11.380 He's got the hots for a woman and so decides to commit murder and to get insurance fraud. 00:35:11.660 --> 00:35:16.880 Okay. He convinces himself that he's saving her from this loveless marriage, 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:18.960 from this, you know, all these other things. Again. 00:35:19.060 --> 00:35:24.100 Does he? I feel like he's fully on board. I feel like he gets on the trolley car. 00:35:24.740 --> 00:35:27.640 He's lying to himself to get what he wants. 00:35:28.210 --> 00:35:31.670 Right. And we've all done that at some point in our life. And so we can see 00:35:31.670 --> 00:35:35.390 ourselves making that mistake again. We're once removed watching him. 00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:38.870 We're going, well, you're stupid, but I've done something similar. 00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:43.150 Certainly, maybe not that bad to that extent, etc. 00:35:43.570 --> 00:35:48.110 But we say, oh, I could convince myself I was doing the wrong thing for the 00:35:48.110 --> 00:35:51.510 right reasons or for a noble reason, you know, right. 00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:58.610 or because I'm in love or because she's trapped by this guy that they're not 00:35:58.610 --> 00:35:59.950 in love with each other, et cetera. 00:36:00.530 --> 00:36:05.230 He is really trying to convince himself, at least for the first third. 00:36:05.970 --> 00:36:12.090 That he's- I felt differently about it, but I'll get some excerpts and see which one of us is right. 00:36:12.250 --> 00:36:14.030 Yeah, I think he's just lying to himself. 00:36:14.390 --> 00:36:17.870 Because as Keyes and he, because they work together, 00:36:18.150 --> 00:36:21.250 part of the delight is you've seen Walter 00:36:21.250 --> 00:36:24.050 and Barbara commit this crime we know exactly how 00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:27.330 it happens and then you see it start to unravel tiny piece 00:36:27.330 --> 00:36:31.110 by tiny piece it starts with Keyes going this is suicide this is they're going 00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:34.190 to get the money it's going to get paid out and then just little things start 00:36:34.190 --> 00:36:38.530 tugging at Keyes and Keyes is using Walter to bounce his ideas and his thinking 00:36:38.530 --> 00:36:44.830 off and so Walter is present for all this and Walter is seeing the wheels come off his plans you. 00:36:44.830 --> 00:36:48.950 Know you ought to take a look at these statistics on suicide sometime you might 00:36:48.950 --> 00:36:50.890 learn a little something about the insurance business Mr. 00:36:51.030 --> 00:36:54.230 Keyes, I was raised in the insurance business. Yeah, in the front office. 00:36:54.850 --> 00:36:57.510 Come now, you've never read an actuarial table in your life, have you? 00:36:58.040 --> 00:37:01.200 Why, we've got ten volumes on suicide alone. Suicide by race, 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.140 by color, by occupation, by sex, by seasons of the year, by time of day. 00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:07.560 Suicide, how committed? By poisons, by firearms, by drowning, by leaps. 00:37:07.780 --> 00:37:11.240 Suicide by poison, subdivided by types of poison, such as corrosive, 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:14.600 irritant, systemic, gaseous, narcotic, alkaloid, protein, and so forth. 00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:18.160 Suicide by leaps, subdivided by leaps from high places, under the wheels of 00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:21.640 trains, under the wheels of trucks, under the feet of horses, from steamboats. 00:37:21.980 --> 00:37:26.300 But Mr. Norton, of all the cases on record, there's not one single case of suicide 00:37:26.300 --> 00:37:28.100 by leap from the rear end of a moving train. 00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:31.100 And you know how fast that train was going at the point where the body was found? 00:37:31.700 --> 00:37:35.440 15 miles an hour. Now, how can anybody jump off a slow moving train like that 00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.420 with any kind of expectation that he would kill himself? 00:37:38.220 --> 00:37:42.940 No, no soap, Mr. Norton. We're sunk and we'll have to pay through the nose and you know it. 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:47.780 Also, as the wheels come off, he stops spending as much time with Barbara and 00:37:47.780 --> 00:37:53.360 so stops being as seabomb struck as he could be. 00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:57.240 They can only see each other, you know, in supermarkets, in passing, et cetera. 00:37:57.520 --> 00:38:01.020 So like she doesn't have as much time to have him under her thrall, if you will. 00:38:01.160 --> 00:38:06.720 But I do still think like there's a huge element of the first crime that relies on him lying to himself. 00:38:07.200 --> 00:38:07.520 Okay. 00:38:07.720 --> 00:38:08.520 And we've all done that. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:13.560 I just, I felt maybe because it was so quick that it went from your bad news, 00:38:13.680 --> 00:38:17.820 but I got the hots for you to we're going to murder someone and get a whole 00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:19.000 lot of money and run away together. 00:38:19.180 --> 00:38:21.300 So maybe it was just the speed of it. 00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:25.000 But even that is like him saying, well, I'm doing a really bad thing, 00:38:25.140 --> 00:38:28.640 but like for this beautiful, wonderful, lovely angel, right? 00:38:28.700 --> 00:38:29.840 Which is the idea of a femme fatale. 00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:34.500 He doesn't, I think it's very crucial that he does not put together the pieces 00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:37.680 that she's done other things until much later in the story. 00:38:37.780 --> 00:38:38.540 Oh yeah, absolutely. 00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:43.800 Very crucial. And like, if he knew that earlier, then I'm like, yeah, he's all in. 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:48.000 But, and again, I think when he's lying to himself, there's a tiny part of him 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:53.400 that knows he's lying to himself, right? And he has to like work to keep this 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:57.340 facade for himself to allow him to go through with the first action. 00:38:58.830 --> 00:39:04.750 And because of the insurance claim, he's spending time with Barbara's stepdaughter, 00:39:05.250 --> 00:39:09.070 the daughter of the man he murdered, very coldly strangled. 00:39:09.130 --> 00:39:10.270 Oh, so good. 00:39:10.430 --> 00:39:17.310 And so he's being exposed to her innocence and seeing himself through her eyes. 00:39:17.470 --> 00:39:21.650 Right. And he's had one or two interactions with her, but they were all in the 00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:24.210 context of her father and her stepmother. 00:39:24.210 --> 00:39:26.970 and so he's convinced herself like oh she's hanging 00:39:26.970 --> 00:39:29.670 out with the wrong crowd and she's you know a bit of a 00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:32.830 floozy and she's all of this so like even that 00:39:32.830 --> 00:39:35.530 is fine if you know i'm helping her 00:39:35.530 --> 00:39:38.230 divest of a bad boyfriend right like again 00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:41.270 lying to himself but as he then 00:39:41.270 --> 00:39:47.030 has to face the fact that actually you know she's just a normal teenager in 00:39:47.030 --> 00:39:50.470 love with a normal guy that you know probably may or may not go anywhere but 00:39:50.470 --> 00:39:55.450 they're perfectly normal fine things he has to He's constantly confronted with 00:39:55.450 --> 00:39:59.330 the lies that he's fed himself in order to enable him to do this thing. Yeah. 00:39:59.530 --> 00:40:03.570 As soon as he starts to have that distance from her and feels that he's going 00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:08.670 to get caught and is hearing about the extent of her sins and that she was actually 00:40:08.670 --> 00:40:11.570 rotten to the core, not some ingenue that he's rescued. 00:40:11.870 --> 00:40:12.010 Yep. 00:40:12.850 --> 00:40:18.550 And he feels taken advantage of. So all those things compound to the point where 00:40:18.550 --> 00:40:22.010 we're pretty certain he's going to the house to murder her. 00:40:22.430 --> 00:40:25.470 blame it on Nino, the boyfriend that they were trying to set up. 00:40:26.240 --> 00:40:31.160 I mean, Noir loves creating these things, right, where he's going to a house 00:40:31.160 --> 00:40:33.380 to murder a woman in cold blood. 00:40:33.520 --> 00:40:37.420 And yet we're looking at this saying, well, this is the only way out. 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:42.660 Like this is she deserves it both from what he knows and what we've learned. 00:40:43.220 --> 00:40:47.860 If you don't do that, the system is going to come down as hard or harder on 00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:50.680 you than it is on her because of the way she set things up. 00:40:50.680 --> 00:40:53.540 you know it there's this element where 00:40:53.540 --> 00:40:56.840 by the time he goes to do that you're actually rooting for him to do it yeah 00:40:56.840 --> 00:41:03.100 which is that's a great great noir bit where you're like yeah you're bad andy 00:41:03.100 --> 00:41:09.000 but i want you to do this also bad thing because i understand where you're coming 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.040 from you know it's it's delicious so. 00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:15.380 That's really important the the full understanding so we don't have voiceover, 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:17.720 but we do have this confessional. 00:41:17.900 --> 00:41:26.380 So, we are given access into both Walter in the moment and retrospectively judging himself. 00:41:27.340 --> 00:41:32.520 We have Barbara's crimes being revealed over time. 00:41:33.780 --> 00:41:37.840 And that we were told at the very beginning that the transgression had been done. 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.820 So, I think those are the main ways. But all right, do these characters change? 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:47.320 I want to be really specific here. I think what we're going to get into when 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:50.800 we do our run on character arcs is I think there's different metrics for change. 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.100 Because, of course, they change. 00:41:52.240 --> 00:41:52.440 Okay. 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:53.200 Right? 00:41:53.380 --> 00:41:53.920 Right, right, right. 00:41:54.020 --> 00:42:00.680 They go from being not murderers to murderers. They have life experience. 00:42:00.680 --> 00:42:04.120 So I'm like, are they fundamentally different people? 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:07.500 This is the philosophical question, right? When you get drunk, 00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:11.820 do you change what you do or do you simply allow your inhibitions to fall and 00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:14.020 do what you would normally want to do? 00:42:14.040 --> 00:42:17.340 Were these societal inhibitions not placed upon you externally? 00:42:17.540 --> 00:42:18.280 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:18.560 Yeah. 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:26.380 Right. I also think that it's interesting that, um, most like for like double indemnity happens. 00:42:26.380 --> 00:42:30.740 And well, double indemnity is tricky because essentially it happens all within 00:42:30.740 --> 00:42:35.080 about five minutes because we're with him making his confession and then and 00:42:35.080 --> 00:42:37.740 seeing it in flashback, etc. But a lot of this happens. 00:42:38.260 --> 00:42:43.300 Most noir happens in a short span of time. Most noir does not take 10 years. 00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:47.020 So you're not seeing a significant change. You are saying, does this reveal 00:42:47.020 --> 00:42:52.900 who you are as a character? Was Walter always like this and he just needed some 00:42:52.900 --> 00:42:54.520 hottie to unlock it in him? 00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:59.620 Or does he significantly change upon his meeting Phyllis, right? 00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:05.180 I think that's quite difficult to answer. And I think that's a very thorny, 00:43:05.580 --> 00:43:10.440 very human question. When we do things, we say, oh, that's not me. Well, but you did it. 00:43:10.870 --> 00:43:11.210 Right. 00:43:11.630 --> 00:43:15.830 Yeah. I feel like it's interesting because they don't do any of that. 00:43:15.990 --> 00:43:17.670 Who was he growing up? What's his backstory? 00:43:17.870 --> 00:43:22.270 What's his worldview coming into the movie early on? 00:43:22.450 --> 00:43:24.550 Yeah. You never flashback before he met her. 00:43:24.850 --> 00:43:25.010 Yeah. 00:43:25.290 --> 00:43:28.810 Like you literally see him having one conversation on his way out the door to 00:43:28.810 --> 00:43:30.290 meet her and that's it. That's all you get. 00:43:30.470 --> 00:43:33.670 And you have no discussion of like what his war experiences might have been 00:43:33.670 --> 00:43:37.350 or, you know, where he grew up or anything like that. 00:43:37.350 --> 00:43:42.810 Which is, I do think that having Barton is fascinating because Barton is a character, 00:43:42.990 --> 00:43:44.830 he's the baseline, right? 00:43:44.970 --> 00:43:48.570 And he loves Walter and he believes Walter is a good person. 00:43:48.690 --> 00:43:52.370 So I do think there's an element of you saying, well, if Barton believes in 00:43:52.370 --> 00:43:58.850 Walter, then maybe Walter was kind of a good guy or good enough or had something redeeming in him. 00:43:58.990 --> 00:44:04.550 But again, even that is very tricky because does he change or does he simply 00:44:04.550 --> 00:44:11.550 reveal who he always was? Well, I've seen this film so many times and this is your first, correct? 00:44:11.770 --> 00:44:12.690 This is my first watch, yeah. 00:44:12.910 --> 00:44:14.990 So I'm curious what you thought coming in cold. 00:44:15.170 --> 00:44:19.710 So I think there's three decisions that he makes that do actually demonstrate 00:44:19.710 --> 00:44:23.070 that he's undergone change in this film. 00:44:23.710 --> 00:44:27.790 I've mentioned, like, it takes very little to convince him to become a murderer. 00:44:27.910 --> 00:44:30.930 I know it's his first time being a murderer, but it takes him very little, right? 00:44:30.930 --> 00:44:34.990 I mean, again, it's all coded, but I don't think they've actually slept together 00:44:34.990 --> 00:44:36.610 before he agrees to do the murder. 00:44:36.790 --> 00:44:37.370 Yeah. Yeah. 00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:40.330 Like he agrees and then they sleep together and then he does that. 00:44:40.430 --> 00:44:44.550 So yeah, that's basically just like, you know, she's batting her eyelashes. 00:44:44.890 --> 00:44:47.950 So I don't think he's necessarily a good person, nor do I think he, 00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:55.210 he never has that kind of moment of moral introspection, except his decision to confess at all. 00:44:56.050 --> 00:44:58.910 He's still planning on escaping. Even at the end of the movie, 00:44:59.050 --> 00:45:03.490 he does, like, walk to the door or stumble in the doorway, right? 00:45:03.630 --> 00:45:03.870 Right. 00:45:04.030 --> 00:45:08.370 He still doesn't want to be caught or thrown in jail or killed or tried. 00:45:08.370 --> 00:45:10.290 He's still trying to escape all those. 00:45:10.390 --> 00:45:15.590 But it was important enough, his relationship with Barton Keyes was... 00:45:15.590 --> 00:45:17.310 That's it. That's what drives him. 00:45:17.430 --> 00:45:19.790 Important enough for him that 00:45:19.790 --> 00:45:22.990 he is going to stumble back into his office in the middle of the night, 00:45:22.990 --> 00:45:26.350 bleeding out and dying from a gunshot wound in order 00:45:26.350 --> 00:45:33.390 to record this confession so he cares about keys keys cares about him and i've 00:45:33.390 --> 00:45:39.410 already mentioned that he saves nino as opposed to trying to pin the murder 00:45:39.410 --> 00:45:44.250 he's about to commit on nino he nino is not a good guy right no. 00:45:44.250 --> 00:45:49.570 I mean we don't know that much of him but he's he's he's headed for a bad end yeah. 00:45:49.570 --> 00:45:55.890 He treats uh his girlfriend, Lola, that terribly, terribly, terribly. 00:45:56.110 --> 00:45:59.810 Look, also they're young, like, you're like, yeah sure, 20 year olds are all 00:45:59.810 --> 00:46:02.350 a bit of a dick, like, whatever. But, yes, correct. 00:46:02.590 --> 00:46:06.690 But, you know, I don't think anyone, any of us in the audience would have judged 00:46:06.690 --> 00:46:10.050 him for continuing with his plan of pinning the murder on Nino, 00:46:10.110 --> 00:46:13.270 but he decided that Nino's transgressions for whatever they were, 00:46:13.410 --> 00:46:15.910 in Walter's book, were not worth, 00:46:16.930 --> 00:46:18.010 pinning murder on. 00:46:18.210 --> 00:46:21.010 And I think that is different to how he was, 00:46:22.010 --> 00:46:22.650 at the beginning. 00:46:22.650 --> 00:46:25.390 You think he would have pinned it on nino at the beginning yeah. 00:46:25.390 --> 00:46:27.530 I mean he plans a cold-hearted. 00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:30.550 Yeah murder i guess so and the 00:46:30.550 --> 00:46:33.410 scene that i'm i've already done for shot zero and then i'll put up we'll 00:46:33.410 --> 00:46:39.710 put in the show link every single shot very intentionally frames walter literally 00:46:39.710 --> 00:46:43.930 physically between phyllis and barton he's in the middle of the devil and the 00:46:43.930 --> 00:46:49.150 angel you know metaphorically on his shoulder fighting over his soul and i i 00:46:49.150 --> 00:46:51.910 i think what what you say is quite interesting. 00:46:52.410 --> 00:46:59.870 Does he change because he saves Nino? I think he's never been confronted with having to. 00:47:00.590 --> 00:47:04.410 So does he change or does he simply realize that's who he is? 00:47:04.490 --> 00:47:10.290 He would have saved Nino because Barton as his, you know, sort of Jiminy Cricket 00:47:10.290 --> 00:47:12.590 would have always compelled him to do that. 00:47:13.010 --> 00:47:19.750 Or does he realize through engaging with Phyllis, I hate this part of me. 00:47:20.010 --> 00:47:22.810 I want to reject it actually this is not who 00:47:22.810 --> 00:47:25.930 i am yeah i was tempted into it tried it 00:47:25.930 --> 00:47:31.310 nope spit it out run away it's an interesting like to some extent it's a philosophical 00:47:31.310 --> 00:47:35.310 question but to some extent i think you're right like he he does the changes 00:47:35.310 --> 00:47:39.010 at the beginning he might have thrown nino under the bus and at the end he's 00:47:39.010 --> 00:47:44.070 at least come to understand who he wants to be wouldn't do that Yeah. 00:47:44.610 --> 00:47:51.990 And I think really importantly for Phyllis slash Barbara, the film has been 00:47:51.990 --> 00:47:57.710 very careful to, as you say, reveal slowly how rotten at the core she is. 00:47:58.450 --> 00:48:02.570 But then she actually, right at the end, because she can't bring herself to 00:48:02.570 --> 00:48:07.350 murder him, because for the first time, she has fallen in love. 00:48:07.490 --> 00:48:09.330 No, didn't want to. Didn't expect to. 00:48:09.890 --> 00:48:14.390 Didn't even realize she couldn't fire that second shot until a minute ago. 00:48:15.390 --> 00:48:16.390 What a line. 00:48:16.770 --> 00:48:21.950 She does change and surprises herself with her change. 00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:27.430 And I buy it. I actually buy it. Like, you know, say what you will about actors 00:48:27.430 --> 00:48:30.050 choices and versus writing on the page. 00:48:30.210 --> 00:48:35.490 I buy it that she changes and didn't want to change. 00:48:35.650 --> 00:48:40.370 She was changed against her will through contact with this guy. 00:48:40.470 --> 00:48:43.770 And again, like a bit of second degree contact, I think, with Barton, 00:48:44.110 --> 00:48:47.430 like because a lot of Barton's philosophy is what drives Walter's choices. 00:48:47.730 --> 00:48:51.990 And is she still irredeemably bad at the end? 00:48:52.130 --> 00:48:58.750 Yes. Is she a shade lighter, a shade more human, a shade more, 00:48:58.970 --> 00:49:05.370 hey, there's actual love and sacrifice and real genuine empathy in the world. 00:49:05.650 --> 00:49:09.750 Just a shade. Yes, I do think that. And I and I buy it in that scene. 00:49:10.070 --> 00:49:10.190 Yeah. 00:49:12.050 --> 00:49:16.830 So, what is the worldview of this film versus the characters? 00:49:17.290 --> 00:49:22.970 Look, part of the reason I love noir is it's fairly nihilistic. 00:49:23.190 --> 00:49:34.230 I think the worldview of the film is that there are bad-to-the-core people that even they, 00:49:34.450 --> 00:49:40.630 when they are confronted with actual altruism and goodness or whatever, at least can hesitate. 00:49:40.630 --> 00:49:48.330 at least can recognize what it is like and that's worth pursuing however even 00:49:48.330 --> 00:49:51.610 though it's worth pursuing you probably still die on the way i. 00:49:51.610 --> 00:49:54.810 Think it's really important that they never get the money unlike. 00:49:54.810 --> 00:49:56.370 Gangster films where. 00:49:56.370 --> 00:50:04.530 You get that sequence of where oh crime is fucking awesome dude like they never have that. 00:50:04.530 --> 00:50:07.450 Yeah yeah there's nothing in this film 00:50:07.450 --> 00:50:11.550 that says crime is fucking awesome crime is stressful crime 00:50:11.550 --> 00:50:15.490 is flop sweats and like 00:50:15.490 --> 00:50:20.150 lying awake at night and not being able to see you know your hottie respectively 00:50:20.150 --> 00:50:24.790 you know to both of them and worried about your boyfriend like finding out and 00:50:24.790 --> 00:50:29.050 you might think it's fun but the moment you actually have to indulge in it you 00:50:29.050 --> 00:50:33.850 realize oh my god it's so stressful i actually don't want this this is not the good kind of stress. 00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:39.580 And so, God, does the murder happen in the first act culmination? 00:50:39.700 --> 00:50:43.220 Are we talking a third act structure or a five act? I go with a five act structure. 00:50:43.860 --> 00:50:48.080 Okay. I feel like the first third of the movie culminates with the murder. 00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:49.100 Okay, sure. 00:50:49.240 --> 00:50:55.660 The second third is like the cat and mouse between Keys and Walter. 00:50:55.980 --> 00:51:00.500 The final act is when the wheels have come off and Walter is kind of turning 00:51:00.500 --> 00:51:03.980 on Phyllis slash Barbara. 00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:10.420 so I think the fact that Keyes has a philosophy that gets quoted back to him 00:51:10.420 --> 00:51:12.020 about the inevitability, 00:51:12.580 --> 00:51:19.160 of this journey that they're on the film has got quite a clear theme that is 00:51:19.160 --> 00:51:23.180 stated and that this fate is not fate in that they were out of control there's 00:51:23.180 --> 00:51:28.700 no system that's controlling them they made their fate with that choice to commit murder. 00:51:29.520 --> 00:51:33.320 There it is Walter it's beginning to come apart at the seams already Thank you very much. 00:51:34.110 --> 00:51:36.410 Murder is never perfect. Always comes apart sooner or later. 00:51:36.810 --> 00:51:38.630 And when two people are involved, it's usually sooner. 00:51:39.490 --> 00:51:42.390 Now, we know the Dietrichson day was in it and a somebody else. 00:51:42.790 --> 00:51:44.950 Pretty soon we'll know where that somebody else is. He'll show. 00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:48.530 He's got to show. Sometime, somewhere, they've got to meet. Their emotions are all kicked up. 00:51:48.830 --> 00:51:51.750 Whether it's love or hate, it doesn't matter. They can't keep away from each other. 00:51:52.350 --> 00:51:54.310 They may think it's twice as safe because they're two of them. 00:51:54.770 --> 00:51:57.910 But it isn't twice as safe. It's ten times twice as dangerous. 00:51:58.670 --> 00:52:02.050 They've committed a murder. And it's not like taking a trolley ride together 00:52:02.050 --> 00:52:04.790 where they can get off at different stops. they're stuck with each other they've 00:52:04.790 --> 00:52:07.390 got to ride all the way to the end of the line that's a one-way trip and the 00:52:07.390 --> 00:52:09.210 last stop is the cemetery yeah. 00:52:09.210 --> 00:52:11.110 They they created their own end like. 00:52:11.110 --> 00:52:11.890 Their decisions. 00:52:13.470 --> 00:52:18.930 Distinctly specifically led to their end like they're responsible for that whatever 00:52:18.930 --> 00:52:25.310 whatever systems may or may not have like orchestrated their decision they still 00:52:25.310 --> 00:52:27.310 made the decision and that's on them. 00:52:27.310 --> 00:52:30.670 So this film somewhat amazingly tells 00:52:30.670 --> 00:52:34.530 you coming in that they're murderers and 00:52:34.530 --> 00:52:37.390 then you're sitting around watching how they commit murder and then 00:52:37.390 --> 00:52:42.610 you're stressed wanting them to get away with murder and ultimately you're like 00:52:42.610 --> 00:52:45.270 oh kill again because that's the only way you're going to keep getting away 00:52:45.270 --> 00:52:50.250 with murder this film yeah makes you feel that way as an audience member absolutely 00:52:50.250 --> 00:52:56.210 without ever endorsing this is good this is right. 00:52:56.210 --> 00:52:59.050 This is necessary is very different than this is good. 00:52:59.050 --> 00:53:02.270 Yeah but i think it was just like the fact i 00:53:02.270 --> 00:53:05.750 feel like nowadays there's so much pressure on 00:53:05.750 --> 00:53:09.090 us as writers to justify why a 00:53:09.090 --> 00:53:13.490 character is doing something and i'm just so impressed with how bold this film 00:53:13.490 --> 00:53:19.310 with like you go from smiling semi-successful insurance salesman middle class 00:53:19.310 --> 00:53:26.270 guy just going yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna do it I'm gonna commit the murder and go with the hottie, 00:53:26.950 --> 00:53:29.650 I'm impressed with the ballsyness of it. 00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:32.670 Billy Wilder is nothing if not ballsy. 00:53:33.790 --> 00:53:35.950 Are we ready to move on to the long goodbye? 00:53:36.230 --> 00:53:41.250 Yes, let's do it. Hey folks, this is Mel from the future, just dropping into 00:53:41.250 --> 00:53:45.670 note that when we talk about the long goodbye, a couple of times Chaz or I say 00:53:45.670 --> 00:53:49.150 Eileen when we mean Sylvia or Sylvia when we mean Eileen. 00:53:49.650 --> 00:53:53.930 Eileen Wade is who hires Marlo to find her husband Roger Wade, 00:53:54.490 --> 00:54:01.110 whereas Sylvia is Terry's wife and she's dead and that kicks off a lot of the 00:54:01.110 --> 00:54:05.390 plot but we never actually see her on screen so just clarifying that a couple 00:54:05.390 --> 00:54:07.850 of times we transpose the wife names we. 00:54:07.850 --> 00:54:12.690 Ever have got to be the nicest neighbor of a private eye meet Philip Marlowe 00:54:12.690 --> 00:54:17.730 Marlowe Marlowe Marlowe Marlowe your name Marlowe you shouldn't be out of bed Mr. 00:54:17.830 --> 00:54:21.130 Marlowe I'm not Mr. Marlowe this is Mr. Marlowe right here who are you you're 00:54:21.130 --> 00:54:26.610 Philip Marlowe are you crazy yeah Elliot David Gould is Philip Marlowe in Robert 00:54:26.610 --> 00:54:28.550 Altman's The Long Goodbye. 00:54:31.810 --> 00:54:36.250 I'm honking my horn. You're supposed to get out of the way. It's okay. 00:54:36.410 --> 00:54:38.490 You're a nice dog. I didn't do nothing. This is Wade. 00:54:38.770 --> 00:54:40.770 Nina Van Pallet is Eileen Wade. 00:54:41.190 --> 00:54:44.270 She's a very shady lady. I like your face, too. 00:54:45.210 --> 00:54:50.770 I feel you're someone I can trust. Your crazy, loony-tune husband could have killed Sylvia Lennox. 00:54:51.050 --> 00:54:55.110 Sterling Hayden is her husband, Roger. Why don't you call your friend the Marlboro 00:54:55.110 --> 00:54:57.190 Man in here? It's not his business. 00:54:59.410 --> 00:55:03.610 He's a very crazy man. You ever think about suicide, Marlboro? 00:55:04.090 --> 00:55:08.950 Me? I don't believe in it. Jim Bowden is Terry Lennox, a small-time punk. 00:55:09.430 --> 00:55:10.710 Well, that's you, Marlowe. 00:55:11.290 --> 00:55:16.570 You'll never learn. You're a born loser. You can't take my money. I want my money. 00:55:17.870 --> 00:55:23.090 The long goodbye centers on an actual private detective, Philip Marlowe, 00:55:23.290 --> 00:55:26.610 played by Elliot Gould, is in L.A. 00:55:26.830 --> 00:55:32.810 His college friend Terry shows up with a bag asking Philip to drive him to Mexico. 00:55:33.550 --> 00:55:39.610 Philip does. Philip is then arrested for being an accomplice to helping Terry 00:55:39.610 --> 00:55:42.370 get away with having beaten his wife to death. 00:55:42.530 --> 00:55:45.510 He's arrested for three days. He's let out once it comes to light that his friend 00:55:45.510 --> 00:55:46.530 Terry has killed himself. 00:55:46.530 --> 00:55:52.890 and Marlowe is convinced that Terry did not kill himself and did not kill his 00:55:52.890 --> 00:55:58.030 wife and so goes about somewhat trying to prove that that's the case. 00:55:58.230 --> 00:56:07.210 Meanwhile, he's also hired by a femme fatale, the wife of an author who happens 00:56:07.210 --> 00:56:09.830 to be a neighbor of his friend Terry. 00:56:10.090 --> 00:56:13.170 In the most beautiful beachside home you've ever fucking seen in your life. 00:56:13.330 --> 00:56:17.890 Oh yeah, fucking, anyway. So, Marlowe is hired by this lady, 00:56:18.070 --> 00:56:20.010 Sylvia, to go and find her husband. 00:56:20.390 --> 00:56:25.670 Marlowe does, and it turns out that those two cases are very much intertwined. 00:56:26.110 --> 00:56:32.690 The film, I think, is deliberately long and meandering. It revels. 00:56:32.810 --> 00:56:35.490 This is the prototype for inherent vice, really. Yeah. 00:56:35.890 --> 00:56:43.510 But to give away the ending, what Marlowe ends up discovering is that his friend 00:56:43.510 --> 00:56:45.510 did murder his wife all along. 00:56:45.770 --> 00:56:46.010 Yep. 00:56:46.010 --> 00:56:50.870 And then Sylvia was having an affair with Terry, his friend, 00:56:51.070 --> 00:56:55.010 and is now funding their lifestyle, running away. 00:56:55.210 --> 00:56:59.390 He's faked his own death in Mexico. And Marlo shows up in Mexico, 00:56:59.870 --> 00:57:03.610 confronts Terry, revealing that he knows everything, and then basically shoots 00:57:03.610 --> 00:57:09.490 Terry in cold blood and walks away, walking past Sylvia without making eye contact. 00:57:09.930 --> 00:57:10.410 So- 00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:14.710 All right. Full disclosure. So I have a Lee Brackett tattoo. 00:57:15.070 --> 00:57:18.270 I love the writer of this screenplay so much. 00:57:18.350 --> 00:57:24.750 I have a tattoo of the author and I love the book and I love the movie, 00:57:24.930 --> 00:57:26.230 although it's very divisive. 00:57:26.430 --> 00:57:29.870 However, the book and the movie are very different. and 00:57:29.870 --> 00:57:33.070 so sometimes if i get tripped up uh they essentially 00:57:33.070 --> 00:57:35.950 start and end the same way but the 00:57:35.950 --> 00:57:40.370 middle is like a lot of a lot of noir lovers hate this movie because robert 00:57:40.370 --> 00:57:47.410 altman just does strange things with noir um i love it so like yeah full confession 00:57:47.410 --> 00:57:52.610 i absolutely love it but it is it's a very it's an outlier and i was curious 00:57:52.610 --> 00:57:55.130 you were the one who really suggested this movie Only. 00:57:55.130 --> 00:57:59.410 Because I've not seen it before. You were like banging the drum for it. 00:57:59.510 --> 00:58:02.330 And I'm like, well, 70s, this was neo-noir, right? 00:58:02.450 --> 00:58:06.290 Like noir as a genre had commercially died. 00:58:06.570 --> 00:58:09.210 I think we discussed as well, we discussed like, do we do Chinatown? 00:58:09.310 --> 00:58:11.030 Do we do this? But this is not a period piece. 00:58:11.350 --> 00:58:16.070 This is filmed in the time it is set. Whereas a lot of 70s noir is either this 00:58:16.070 --> 00:58:21.350 real, it's paranoid thrillers that happen to be neo-noir or it's a period piece. 00:58:21.470 --> 00:58:23.010 It's like set in the 40s, et cetera. 00:58:23.010 --> 00:58:28.450 So, Chinatown is quintessential that. Yes, it's neo-noir, but it feels like, 00:58:28.690 --> 00:58:32.430 to me, because of its period setting, that it could have been in the 40s, right? 00:58:32.590 --> 00:58:37.890 Yes, it has a slightly more modern sensibility, but there's not much that happens 00:58:37.890 --> 00:58:42.070 in Chinatown that wouldn't have happened in other 40s set noirs. 00:58:42.070 --> 00:58:48.750 whereas this is very 70s so 70s like this film bangs the drum on how 70s it 00:58:48.750 --> 00:58:55.570 is literally has five topless yoga instructors the. 00:58:55.570 --> 00:58:58.870 Neighbors yeah who are they oh my neighbors. 00:58:58.870 --> 00:59:03.970 Just constantly in the background through his window of his flat just constantly 00:59:03.970 --> 00:59:06.090 delicious this is the era. 00:59:06.090 --> 00:59:11.270 Of like they're referencing the hippies constantly even though the hippies are not, 00:59:12.270 --> 00:59:17.610 crucial to the plot or crucial to whatever they are the literal and metaphorical 00:59:17.610 --> 00:59:21.670 backdrop of this is the era of free love and all these other things are going on. 00:59:22.170 --> 00:59:29.370 Well, and the other element of it is the sort of power figures that the wealth represents, 00:59:29.590 --> 00:59:35.150 because there's a lot of, I think a lot of noir says the power isn't the cops, 00:59:35.330 --> 00:59:38.910 the power is the people who own the cops or pay the cops. 00:59:39.330 --> 00:59:43.810 And in this, there's a very 70s representation of power. These guys are intellectuals. 00:59:43.870 --> 00:59:46.630 They've got their money from being a successful writer. 00:59:46.830 --> 00:59:52.230 They have like intellectual parties. One of the nefarious characters is a doctor 00:59:52.230 --> 00:59:54.570 who runs a rehab clinic. Like they're all... 00:59:55.250 --> 01:00:02.050 They're socially feated. Like they're accepted and they're big figures in the community, etc. 01:00:02.370 --> 01:00:05.530 And they're also all corrupt down to the core. 01:00:05.890 --> 01:00:10.810 It's not like old money or politicians or anything like that. 01:00:10.930 --> 01:00:13.730 So that's how I think it updates. 01:00:14.130 --> 01:00:16.790 Like it is so of its time. 01:00:16.990 --> 01:00:17.690 Yeah. but. 01:00:17.690 --> 01:00:23.450 Just to i'm gonna call out some things some notes that i that i wrote if you 01:00:23.450 --> 01:00:30.570 ever want to see a film example of save the cat in action watch the opening of this film. 01:00:30.570 --> 01:00:33.530 Because he doesn't save his cat his cat goes missing and then never. 01:00:33.530 --> 01:00:40.130 Fucking returns right but the opening five minutes are him trying to get cat 01:00:40.130 --> 01:00:44.810 food for his cat like the cat wakes him up in the middle of the night he goes to the store. 01:00:44.810 --> 01:00:47.770 He tried well no first he tries to feed the cat other things 01:00:47.770 --> 01:00:50.510 and the cat's like you i'm not eating 01:00:50.510 --> 01:00:53.290 this get me and then he goes to the store and 01:00:53.290 --> 01:00:57.530 he's like he's asking the stock boy about the brand because he's like you don't 01:00:57.530 --> 01:01:01.390 understand my cat will not eat any other brand he gets the brand which by the 01:01:01.390 --> 01:01:06.710 way costs more than the generic shit yeah and also he references the cat constantly 01:01:06.710 --> 01:01:09.590 in fact when the cops arrest him he's mad at them because he's Like, 01:01:09.610 --> 01:01:11.870 I don't think you understand how important this cat is to me. 01:01:11.970 --> 01:01:15.330 Like, when he, like, he's yelling at Terry because, like, oh, 01:01:15.350 --> 01:01:17.410 my God, like, my cat is more loyal than you. 01:01:17.650 --> 01:01:20.070 I, yeah, the cat is so crucial to me. 01:01:20.680 --> 01:01:23.860 him as a character and also iliot gould 01:01:23.860 --> 01:01:28.960 and this cat have just incredible like the way that they interact is really 01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:34.160 lovely and really as someone who has directed animals on film incredibly difficult 01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:39.480 to get animals to do anything let alone cats because they just don't want to 01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:42.820 it's just it's so good it's incredible. 01:01:42.820 --> 01:01:46.040 Yeah so we're missing 01:01:46.040 --> 01:01:52.080 my favorite part of the bit where he pulls an empty tin of old cat food out 01:01:52.080 --> 01:01:57.040 from his bed he shuts the cat out of the kitchen so that he can then pour the 01:01:57.040 --> 01:02:01.340 new cat food into the old tin and then he lets the cat in and mimes opening 01:02:01.340 --> 01:02:04.120 the old tin and serving him the cat food would. 01:02:04.120 --> 01:02:05.180 Your cat fall for that. 01:02:05.180 --> 01:02:09.820 No not not at all because it would be taste and smell but the the lengths he 01:02:09.820 --> 01:02:14.900 is going to like it really marlo and elliot ghoul's, 01:02:15.520 --> 01:02:19.340 portrayal of Marlowe is not inherently likable, but they go to such lengths 01:02:19.340 --> 01:02:22.000 for you to sit with him to go, all right, we're on board with this guy. 01:02:22.120 --> 01:02:24.580 The opening five minutes is all about him trying to feed his cat. 01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:24.900 Yeah. 01:02:25.200 --> 01:02:28.620 And now you write that and people go, cut it. It's not important. 01:02:29.300 --> 01:02:32.940 Because it does nothing for the plot. It does. And like you said, the cat disappears. 01:02:33.220 --> 01:02:33.340 Yeah. 01:02:33.460 --> 01:02:36.660 And then he's just referencing the cat. But the cat is so important to telling 01:02:36.660 --> 01:02:39.220 you who this person is. Yeah. 01:02:39.970 --> 01:02:43.230 So that's one thing i'm hanging 01:02:43.230 --> 01:02:47.130 my hat on the other thing is in 01:02:47.130 --> 01:02:50.290 the same way that it does it for double indemnity the film 01:02:50.290 --> 01:02:53.190 tips its hand to you we meet terry 01:02:53.190 --> 01:02:56.230 before or no we see terry i think possibly 01:02:56.230 --> 01:02:59.550 is there's the film open on terry getting into the car and 01:02:59.550 --> 01:03:03.210 driving either way it's in amongst the cat 01:03:03.210 --> 01:03:06.290 scenario we see terry and he 01:03:06.290 --> 01:03:09.910 gets into the car and it shows you that he has bloodied 01:03:09.910 --> 01:03:12.830 and bruised knuckles and he puts driving gloves on 01:03:12.830 --> 01:03:15.730 to cover them up so the film is 01:03:15.730 --> 01:03:18.770 telling us terry has beaten someone 01:03:18.770 --> 01:03:21.690 very badly right and yet 01:03:21.690 --> 01:03:24.850 i got suckered in by marley's absolute faith 01:03:24.850 --> 01:03:28.130 that terry was innocent right marley 01:03:28.130 --> 01:03:32.090 was getting beaten black and blue by the police and you 01:03:32.090 --> 01:03:36.270 know still would be like not say a bad thing about his friend would not believe 01:03:36.270 --> 01:03:41.670 you know whenever sylvia was trying to we learn retrospectively throw marlo 01:03:41.670 --> 01:03:48.910 off the scent by saying that terry probably killed his wife marlo doesn't believe it right i. 01:03:48.910 --> 01:03:52.190 Can't understand how he could do something like that how could he kill his wife 01:03:52.190 --> 01:03:57.410 i mean there were nice people i don't know it's just hard well i'll tell you 01:03:57.410 --> 01:04:01.150 something i don't believe he killed his wife i read in the paper you know he 01:04:01.150 --> 01:04:04.650 confessed and they had a letter and all from him Mrs. Weir, have a good night. 01:04:04.850 --> 01:04:08.050 I'll see how everything is in the morning. Okay, and thank you again. 01:04:08.970 --> 01:04:13.730 So I was like, there's going to eventually have to explain away the bruised 01:04:13.730 --> 01:04:17.190 knuckles as a red herring. 01:04:17.350 --> 01:04:17.610 Yeah. 01:04:17.750 --> 01:04:20.550 And no, it wasn't a red herring. It told us all along. 01:04:20.590 --> 01:04:23.790 Which I think is two things. It's knowledge of genre, right? 01:04:23.870 --> 01:04:28.550 It's knowledge of a lot of things that you see within noir is then explained 01:04:28.550 --> 01:04:33.150 later as something different or can be explained by something that's either 01:04:33.150 --> 01:04:36.750 innocent or adjacent, but quite different. But it's also... 01:04:37.750 --> 01:04:43.550 We all know that there are, again, like the identification with Marlowe is very 01:04:43.550 --> 01:04:47.350 important, because as a viewer, we all know that we've done things that have 01:04:47.350 --> 01:04:50.230 been seen externally as what they are not. 01:04:50.390 --> 01:04:53.350 And we're like, no, no, no, let me let me explain this to you. 01:04:53.450 --> 01:04:56.970 Like, no, really, genuinely, it's actually this thing and people don't believe you. 01:04:57.650 --> 01:05:00.970 and so the identification with marlo even 01:05:00.970 --> 01:05:03.710 though we've seen his other things of terry we think no you can explain that 01:05:03.710 --> 01:05:06.830 no it's actually a thing and loyalty is the crux of 01:05:06.830 --> 01:05:09.690 to me loyalty is the theme of this film it's the crux 01:05:09.690 --> 01:05:12.370 of this film and marlo is loyal which is what the 01:05:12.370 --> 01:05:15.430 cat shows right like yeah yeah he's gonna be grumpy 01:05:15.430 --> 01:05:18.310 about it he's gonna be an asshole but he 01:05:18.310 --> 01:05:21.510 is loyal to who he thinks to his friends and 01:05:21.510 --> 01:05:24.410 who he thinks his friends are even again like at the beginning we 01:05:24.410 --> 01:05:27.430 see all of these you know models quote-unquote models next 01:05:27.430 --> 01:05:30.710 door and he's loyal to them because they're his friends and they've never done 01:05:30.710 --> 01:05:33.850 anything wrong to him and they you know they help him out they clearly are his 01:05:33.850 --> 01:05:39.810 weed dealers also um again a little bit a little bit coded but yeah and he's 01:05:39.810 --> 01:05:46.350 he's good to them and they're good to him and it's a very you know um tete-a-tete sort of situation yeah. 01:05:46.350 --> 01:05:51.390 There's a line when he leaves when they ask him to get brownie mix when he's 01:05:51.390 --> 01:05:53.070 off to the store to get the cat. 01:05:53.070 --> 01:05:54.310 Yeah yeah they. 01:05:54.310 --> 01:05:57.010 There's a throwaway line nicest neighbor we've had. 01:05:57.010 --> 01:05:59.870 And you imagine that these are people 01:05:59.870 --> 01:06:02.810 who i mean even in the 70s are clearly looked down 01:06:02.810 --> 01:06:05.690 upon by society which noir is really interested in you know 01:06:05.690 --> 01:06:08.770 class and jobs and all of that and that 01:06:08.770 --> 01:06:12.410 he's like well i don't give a shit like you're good to me i'm good to you i 01:06:12.410 --> 01:06:17.470 don't care if you have this job that's frowned upon or whatever and so yeah 01:06:17.470 --> 01:06:21.590 loyalty is the key yeah and that's shown with the cat and that's shown with 01:06:21.590 --> 01:06:25.950 what he does to Terry until he realizes that Terry doesn't deserve it. 01:06:26.590 --> 01:06:30.490 Yes, which is right at the end. So, 01:06:30.490 --> 01:06:37.470 does this fit the mold of here's a man caught by a transgression following it 01:06:37.470 --> 01:06:42.050 to its inevitable lead to be confronted by insurmountable powers? 01:06:42.370 --> 01:06:45.290 I think there's variations of that in this film. 01:06:45.410 --> 01:06:46.770 I do think his transgression is 01:06:46.770 --> 01:06:52.630 that he drives his mate to Mexico without asking why or doing any of that. 01:06:52.690 --> 01:06:54.890 Well, there's two transgressions. And that's a transgression, 01:06:55.150 --> 01:06:58.070 but you can see it from two different angles, right? 01:06:58.250 --> 01:07:02.030 Like, yeah, that's the thing you did wrong. But also, like, society tells you 01:07:02.030 --> 01:07:11.810 you go to the cops and his personal moral code says, well, fuck the police and do this other thing. 01:07:11.930 --> 01:07:14.090 And he would not transgress his code. 01:07:14.310 --> 01:07:14.490 Yes. 01:07:14.690 --> 01:07:20.870 So this is a transgression against societal mores, but not a transgression against his personal code. 01:07:21.230 --> 01:07:26.050 Absolutely agree. but i feel like the cops are immediately portrayed as corrupt 01:07:26.050 --> 01:07:27.870 and so he's vindicated in. 01:07:27.870 --> 01:07:32.450 Well they beat him they they like they arrest him and then they start smacking 01:07:32.450 --> 01:07:35.910 him around immediately before they actually know anything hold. 01:07:35.910 --> 01:07:38.110 Him three days without charge like yeah. 01:07:38.110 --> 01:07:42.370 Just later literally like hitting him upside the head arresting him without 01:07:42.370 --> 01:07:49.030 cause like yeah they are corrupt like again noir says a cab but yeah within 01:07:49.030 --> 01:07:52.210 this very specific story the cops are clearly dirty yeah app. 01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:57.100 And so there's, like, I don't want to necessarily get into the details of it, 01:07:57.220 --> 01:07:58.780 but there's a number of different threads. 01:07:59.020 --> 01:08:04.000 There's a, Terry, his mate, was like a drug mule, essentially, 01:08:04.340 --> 01:08:07.720 or running money for a gangster. 01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:11.820 The gangster comes looking for his money. So Marlow is being looked at by the cops. 01:08:12.220 --> 01:08:14.580 He's being chased by, um. 01:08:15.200 --> 01:08:18.420 Threatened by the gangster. Yeah. And the gangster there's this great scene 01:08:18.420 --> 01:08:24.860 where the gangster basically demonstrates how nasty he is by glassing his girlfriend. 01:08:24.860 --> 01:08:29.020 And that's where Marlo's like, oh, well, like, sure, you want to do drugs. 01:08:29.140 --> 01:08:31.740 I don't give a shit. Oh, you've glassed your girlfriend. 01:08:32.080 --> 01:08:37.420 Now I'm against you because you've done something that is against my moral code. 01:08:38.040 --> 01:08:42.880 Sure, but against him how? What does he do to Augustine? Absolutely nothing. 01:08:43.200 --> 01:08:44.480 Well, he's just in the way. 01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:53.340 Yeah, but I mean, so you're saying that Augustine has breached Marlow's moral code, which he has. 01:08:53.440 --> 01:08:55.020 Yes, absolutely. 01:08:55.440 --> 01:08:57.640 But Marlow does absolutely fuck all about it. 01:08:57.860 --> 01:09:03.120 Well, he has no power to do it at that point. He knows that if he attempts to 01:09:03.120 --> 01:09:06.180 do something at that point, he's dead. And I think there's a lot of, 01:09:06.320 --> 01:09:11.960 there's this idea of like Marlowe recognizing, again, he does the same thing with the cops. 01:09:12.100 --> 01:09:15.120 He doesn't fight back because he knows that that's futile. 01:09:15.380 --> 01:09:15.620 Yeah. 01:09:15.780 --> 01:09:18.860 Like he knows that gets him nowhere except further beaten up. 01:09:19.100 --> 01:09:19.360 Yes. 01:09:19.440 --> 01:09:23.940 So there's, he does what he can with what he has. 01:09:24.200 --> 01:09:24.380 Yeah. 01:09:24.560 --> 01:09:28.440 But at the same time, he actually doesn't give a shit about Augustina until 01:09:28.440 --> 01:09:33.000 it violates his personal moral code. yeah. 01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:38.000 But even when it violates his code he's still trying to close that out like 01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:42.600 he gets a five thousand dollar bill from a letter named signed terry and he 01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:47.320 goes straight to augustine to show say this is evidence that terry's still alive 01:09:47.320 --> 01:09:50.800 he's like trying to get augustine off his back right. 01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:54.940 Off his back yeah but he's also still trying to implicate augustine like and 01:09:54.940 --> 01:09:57.740 there's this really fascinating thing that i love about noir where he's like 01:09:57.740 --> 01:10:02.640 well i think the cops are all evil and dirty but I would love to implicate you 01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:08.400 and let the cops pick you up because you're actually still worse like it's it's very, 01:10:09.380 --> 01:10:16.840 it's very shaggy dog like save the cat and shaggy dog tail but he's there's 01:10:16.840 --> 01:10:20.700 all these like tertiary threads where he's like well if I couldn't get the cops 01:10:20.700 --> 01:10:25.440 sicked on your trail and therefore like get you off the streets then that's 01:10:25.440 --> 01:10:27.860 overall still a moral win yeah. 01:10:28.650 --> 01:10:30.830 Yeah, but he doesn't get him off the streets. 01:10:31.070 --> 01:10:33.630 No, because in noir you usually fail. 01:10:33.810 --> 01:10:35.570 He gets his money back and he walks out. 01:10:35.730 --> 01:10:40.350 The end of noir is often incredibly narratively unsatisfying. 01:10:40.550 --> 01:10:44.550 It's untidy. It's not a happy ending. Everybody loses. 01:10:45.450 --> 01:10:48.590 Everybody loses. If you get out alive, you have won. 01:10:49.150 --> 01:10:54.890 That is, I think, one of the things that differentiates a lot of noir and gangster 01:10:54.890 --> 01:10:56.170 film or whatever, right? 01:10:56.170 --> 01:11:00.830 where like even a gangster film where you die it's like a conclusive narratively 01:11:00.830 --> 01:11:04.370 satisfying ending and noir is just like no everything's still fucked and you 01:11:04.370 --> 01:11:06.310 just have to go on and it's all still fucked. 01:11:06.310 --> 01:11:09.110 And this is this is where i think 01:11:09.110 --> 01:11:11.930 anyone who's writing a story where that is 01:11:11.930 --> 01:11:14.770 where they want it to end they want to leave the 01:11:14.770 --> 01:11:17.530 audience with everything is still fucked then go and 01:11:17.530 --> 01:11:20.590 watch a whole lot of noirs to try and pull out how do 01:11:20.590 --> 01:11:25.670 you successfully tell that story in a satisfying way two more observations i'd 01:11:25.670 --> 01:11:30.150 like to make before we ask the questions of the the long goodbye one is there's 01:11:30.150 --> 01:11:35.150 no voiceover whatsoever but in classic altman style there is a running mumble 01:11:35.150 --> 01:11:39.670 to self for the whole film um file. 01:11:39.670 --> 01:11:44.170 That under should not work and yet works and lots of other people talking in 01:11:44.170 --> 01:11:48.510 the background just like a constant buzz of people talking i think when he's 01:11:48.510 --> 01:11:50.230 in the When he's in the cop shop, 01:11:50.530 --> 01:11:53.550 and again, I've seen this movie a bunch of times, when he's in the cop shop, 01:11:53.670 --> 01:11:56.910 it's one of those things where you don't really see Elliot Gould's mouth moving, 01:11:57.010 --> 01:12:00.670 but you're in a wide enough shot that it's probably actually a voiceover, 01:12:00.710 --> 01:12:03.150 but you can just believe he's mumbling to himself, it's fine. 01:12:03.710 --> 01:12:06.490 Yeah. And I just want to note to the audience... 01:12:07.410 --> 01:12:10.510 If you haven't seen this film, this film is hilariously funny. 01:12:10.670 --> 01:12:12.230 Noir is so fucking funny. 01:12:12.530 --> 01:12:16.970 And so noir does not have to be... I mean, the two films that we've watched 01:12:16.970 --> 01:12:19.590 so far are delicious, delightful, funny. 01:12:19.850 --> 01:12:22.290 I think three out of this four are laugh out loud hilarious. 01:12:22.770 --> 01:12:26.690 Well, I just want to dispel the idea that noir means bleak. 01:12:26.850 --> 01:12:29.430 Yeah, dour or yeah, yeah. 01:12:29.710 --> 01:12:29.870 Yeah. 01:12:30.110 --> 01:12:30.350 Sure. 01:12:30.470 --> 01:12:36.930 It can be, but that is a choice. I think you can find these stylistic tropes, 01:12:37.030 --> 01:12:42.370 these narrative tropes in this world view and put it into any kind of tone of story. 01:12:42.710 --> 01:12:46.290 I mean, there is slapstick in The Longer Bight, a lot of physical slapstick, 01:12:46.290 --> 01:12:47.710 a lot of physical comedy. 01:12:47.710 --> 01:12:53.330 I mean, just my favorite bit, I think, in the whole film is the gangster is 01:12:53.330 --> 01:12:59.510 coming, Glass's girlfriend, and left the apartment with his cronies. 01:13:00.370 --> 01:13:05.330 And Marlowe goes and does some shenanigans, but comes back and knows that there's 01:13:05.330 --> 01:13:09.910 someone that's been left to tail him, but knows him as a generic hired henchman. 01:13:09.910 --> 01:13:11.370 They're on first name basis. 01:13:11.590 --> 01:13:12.450 You're working your way up. 01:13:12.570 --> 01:13:16.490 And he's like, let me teach you how to be a better henchman. 01:13:16.490 --> 01:13:20.930 right like giving him tips tips and guidance on how to do it listen. 01:13:20.930 --> 01:13:24.470 Harry in case you lose me in traffic this is the address where i'm going thank 01:13:24.470 --> 01:13:26.290 you great harry i'll wait to straighten you, 01:13:27.500 --> 01:13:31.180 Harry, I'm proud to have you following me. Thank you. 01:13:32.020 --> 01:13:36.080 And there's a security guard guy who has this running bit about impersonations. 01:13:36.100 --> 01:13:39.780 And then he tells the security guard guy, like, oh, do this bit. 01:13:39.920 --> 01:13:42.640 Like, this guy who's tailing me will really love it. 01:13:42.780 --> 01:13:42.940 Yeah. 01:13:43.080 --> 01:13:44.160 Yeah. It's very funny. 01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:49.100 And in terms of slapstick, Marlow goes through a gate, quite a tall gate. 01:13:49.240 --> 01:13:53.300 And then along comes this henchman and climbs the gate to peer over the top. 01:13:53.300 --> 01:13:58.340 And Marlowe just gently opens it, swinging the guy to one side and like looks 01:13:58.340 --> 01:14:01.020 at it for him just like tut, tut, tut. 01:14:01.860 --> 01:14:08.600 Just like truly funny, amazing. But also, let's start with the questions. 01:14:09.020 --> 01:14:13.640 You know, I'm not sure Marlowe does horrible things. 01:14:13.640 --> 01:14:16.460 I think he definitely transgresses. but this 01:14:16.460 --> 01:14:19.560 one's he's a different character to the other three films 01:14:19.560 --> 01:14:23.040 in that they go to real lengths to show that which we've established to show 01:14:23.040 --> 01:14:28.000 that this is someone that's worth watching and while he's willing to drive a 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:34.480 friend to mexico he's got a suspicious bag bloody knuckles and is quote unquote 01:14:34.480 --> 01:14:37.120 had a fight with his wife i have. 01:14:37.120 --> 01:14:41.540 Friends if they showed up you know if they knocked on my door right now and 01:14:41.540 --> 01:14:45.680 had blood on their shirt and said mate i need help i'd be You're like, 01:14:45.800 --> 01:14:46.700 all right, I believe you. 01:14:47.040 --> 01:14:50.960 And I think that's where you say, has the character changed? 01:14:52.420 --> 01:14:59.560 I don't think that Marlo has changed, but I do think his worldview has. 01:14:59.700 --> 01:15:04.120 Like, he genuinely believed. And again, some of this is maybe colored by my 01:15:04.120 --> 01:15:08.800 loving the book, having seen this movie multiple times, having written maybe 01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:13.360 a thesis paper on, like, the concept of loyalty in this film. Right. 01:15:14.390 --> 01:15:19.890 At the end, he is actually more jaded than he started. 01:15:20.450 --> 01:15:25.050 Like, at the beginning of this film, he had a code. At the end of this film, he had a code. 01:15:25.250 --> 01:15:28.870 But at the beginning of the film, he genuinely believed that there were still 01:15:28.870 --> 01:15:34.210 people in his life that were loyal and that he could count on. 01:15:34.270 --> 01:15:36.670 At the end of this film, he's actually gone, you know what, actually there are 01:15:36.670 --> 01:15:43.670 not. I had one friend who fucked me over to such a royal degree that it has 01:15:43.670 --> 01:15:45.590 actually made me doubt every other, 01:15:45.590 --> 01:15:50.870 what I assumed to be foundational relationship in my life. And I cannot come back from that. 01:15:51.990 --> 01:15:56.450 I think he always would have shot Terry. Like if Terry had shown up at the beginning 01:15:56.450 --> 01:16:00.370 of the film and said, Marlo, Marlo, I've just beaten my wife to death. Yep. 01:16:00.630 --> 01:16:01.310 Because that's his code. 01:16:01.350 --> 01:16:03.430 He would have shot him like straight away. 01:16:03.750 --> 01:16:03.870 Yep. 01:16:03.870 --> 01:16:07.670 Right. Like, so I think in some ways, Marlowe hasn't changed, 01:16:07.670 --> 01:16:09.790 but I agree with you on the jadedness. 01:16:09.950 --> 01:16:14.470 His philosophy has changed, I guess, is maybe the thing, but he has not changed. 01:16:14.590 --> 01:16:15.550 His core has not changed. 01:16:15.810 --> 01:16:18.570 But his understanding of the world has changed. 01:16:19.390 --> 01:16:26.070 And I also think, how do they make Marlo a compelling protagonist when he's very rarely in control? 01:16:26.670 --> 01:16:30.490 He's a detective. But okay, so one of the things I'm going to get to is two things. 01:16:30.610 --> 01:16:32.610 You've already made the observation, but I think it's great, 01:16:32.770 --> 01:16:35.330 is that he is often getting beaten up. 01:16:35.450 --> 01:16:40.410 And until he shoots Terry at the end, never physically threatens anyone, never uses violence. 01:16:40.410 --> 01:16:43.350 but you can feel in the moments when he's being 01:16:43.350 --> 01:16:46.330 assaulted when he's powerless he's just biding 01:16:46.330 --> 01:16:49.550 his time until there is something he has control over 01:16:49.550 --> 01:16:55.730 and when he is hired as a detective and he is doing detective work they show 01:16:55.730 --> 01:17:00.510 him we've already referenced the the knowledge gap he has over the henchman 01:17:00.510 --> 01:17:06.810 but they show him being smart and being personable and being competent And. 01:17:06.810 --> 01:17:12.270 Those are linked because there's a pragmatism to being smart and knowing when 01:17:12.270 --> 01:17:16.310 you can win and when you can't and when you have to take the beating and when 01:17:16.310 --> 01:17:17.590 you can administer the beating. 01:17:18.270 --> 01:17:21.410 And I think he knows that he functions within a system. 01:17:21.570 --> 01:17:28.030 Like the fact that he never goes after Augustine and doesn't even confront Sylvia at the end. 01:17:28.230 --> 01:17:31.550 Because he understands that the class distinction, the money, 01:17:31.650 --> 01:17:35.690 the power is not, he doesn't hold the power. What good would it do him? 01:17:35.690 --> 01:17:39.250 Yeah, but also his code is she cheated on her husband. 01:17:39.630 --> 01:17:46.570 That's fine by him. She didn't beat her husband to death, in which case he would have done something. 01:17:46.870 --> 01:17:53.110 She cheated on her husband. The only person that she significantly transgressed against was him. 01:17:53.290 --> 01:17:53.730 Yeah. 01:17:54.030 --> 01:17:58.770 And he will let that go because, you know, pragmatism and personal. Yeah. 01:17:59.740 --> 01:18:07.980 So, yeah, I mean, Marlowe is in some ways a more stereotypical noir lead than 01:18:07.980 --> 01:18:09.540 Walter in Double Indemnity is. 01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:10.380 Absolutely. 01:18:10.760 --> 01:18:14.420 He's a detective. He is very much a fish out of water. 01:18:14.700 --> 01:18:19.260 Like, Marlowe on the beach wearing his dark suit, like, he just does not look 01:18:19.260 --> 01:18:20.420 like he should be in the sun. 01:18:20.540 --> 01:18:24.740 Like, he looks like a creature of darkness who's been thrown into a very uncomfortable situation. 01:18:25.100 --> 01:18:27.440 Sunshine noir. Oh, beautiful. 01:18:27.440 --> 01:18:32.740 And, you know, these big class divides and these big representations of power, 01:18:32.920 --> 01:18:39.080 either in the gangster character, in Sylvia's husband, the writer, Roger, 01:18:39.680 --> 01:18:42.740 Sylvia herself, the cops. 01:18:43.720 --> 01:18:49.620 And he only takes action when he knows he can have an impact and when there's 01:18:49.620 --> 01:18:51.380 been a transgression against his code. 01:18:52.180 --> 01:18:57.580 But he was, going back to that film historian, he was a character trapped by his decision. 01:18:57.720 --> 01:19:03.840 If he hadn't driven his friend to Mexico, the plot would not have unraveled as it did. 01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:10.120 But his moral code, without knowing what Terry had done, does not allow him 01:19:10.120 --> 01:19:11.620 to turn Terry away from his door. 01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:15.460 Yes. So, I mean, maybe he was always going to be trapped by his code. 01:19:15.460 --> 01:19:19.920 But in the same way, they don't talk about it being an inevitability in the 01:19:19.920 --> 01:19:22.600 same way that they discuss it openly in Double Indemnity. 01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:27.360 But at the end of the movie, it feels like him murdering Terry is the... 01:19:27.360 --> 01:19:31.720 It's the inevitable outcome of his code versus what he knew at the time. 01:19:31.960 --> 01:19:37.280 He followed his code and therefore it would have always led him to this given those circumstances. 01:19:37.780 --> 01:19:38.700 And I'm going to... 01:19:39.230 --> 01:19:42.130 Again, giveaway, a learning that I'll have at the end. 01:19:42.270 --> 01:19:49.910 But all of these films conclude with a character confronting what they've done, 01:19:50.150 --> 01:19:57.050 not necessarily concluding that it's a bad thing, but assessing their own complicity 01:19:57.050 --> 01:19:58.230 in the events around them. 01:19:58.470 --> 01:20:03.590 In Double Indemnity, it's very clear. He's like, I did it. I'm the killer. 01:20:05.030 --> 01:20:10.230 But in The Long Goodbye, I think it's the fact that Marlo travels to Mexico 01:20:10.230 --> 01:20:13.470 to confront his friend to shoot him, right? 01:20:14.190 --> 01:20:18.530 There is like, this is my accountability. This is my responsibility. 01:20:18.890 --> 01:20:22.170 Could have just left it go, let it go, right? Didn't have to do anything, right? 01:20:22.470 --> 01:20:23.950 His code won't let him let it go. 01:20:24.290 --> 01:20:29.330 Exactly. And then Devil in the Blue Dress, which we're about to transition into, 01:20:29.810 --> 01:20:33.190 has easy asking at the end of the movie, 01:20:33.750 --> 01:20:39.310 basically, am I responsible for the actions of the people I'm friends with? 01:20:39.970 --> 01:20:43.150 Without necessarily confronting his own decisions, but that is... 01:20:43.150 --> 01:20:45.890 Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. We'll get there in a second. Yep. 01:20:46.210 --> 01:20:48.590 Well, do you want to... Are we done with the long goodbye? 01:20:48.790 --> 01:20:54.090 I think so. I think so. Also, this... You had never seen any of these before this? Question mark? 01:20:54.090 --> 01:20:58.390 No, not a single one of them. It's been a fun week. 01:20:58.790 --> 01:21:01.830 This is interesting because I've seen all of these before. So this is really 01:21:01.830 --> 01:21:05.170 quite fascinating because I do think once you get more and more familiar with 01:21:05.170 --> 01:21:08.410 something, those first impressions, which can often be correct, 01:21:08.590 --> 01:21:11.430 that you're bringing in where I was like, oh, I hadn't thought about it. Yeah, okay, sure. 01:21:11.570 --> 01:21:14.930 But I've become a little bit inured to it. So, all right. All right. 01:21:15.590 --> 01:21:19.470 All right, DraftZero fans, we're going to stop right there and make this part 01:21:19.470 --> 01:21:24.450 one of Noirvember in December, an exploration of both character arcs and worldview 01:21:24.450 --> 01:21:29.790 through the unique themes and trends of film noir and how that works through the ages. 01:21:30.190 --> 01:21:36.110 Please come back for Devil in a Blue Dress and Woman of the Hour, 01:21:36.410 --> 01:21:41.690 cementing our learnings, comparing and contrasting how the same worldviews, 01:21:41.750 --> 01:21:43.150 the same narrative tropes, 01:21:43.230 --> 01:21:48.690 the same styles can be applied in different times with different systems of 01:21:48.690 --> 01:21:56.470 oppression and all of them leading to a way of telling a story that will end poorly for everyone. 01:21:57.130 --> 01:21:57.650 Yep. 01:21:57.870 --> 01:22:01.570 So if you've got a story, no matter what genre it is, where you want everything 01:22:01.570 --> 01:22:05.510 to end poorly for everyone, tune in for this next episode. 01:22:07.110 --> 01:22:07.630 Excellent. 01:22:10.270 --> 01:22:14.230 I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on 01:22:14.230 --> 01:22:15.830 this episode or anything in general. 01:22:16.030 --> 01:22:22.650 And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com. 01:22:22.850 --> 01:22:27.030 At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes. 01:22:27.170 --> 01:22:32.510 As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and 01:22:32.510 --> 01:22:35.550 review on Apple Podcasts. Very important for spreading the word. 01:22:35.710 --> 01:22:40.610 Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than 01:22:40.610 --> 01:22:46.350 a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting 01:22:46.350 --> 01:22:48.190 these episodes to you quicker. 01:22:48.590 --> 01:22:51.450 Thanks. And thanks for listening.