WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.197 --> 00:00:02.207 Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things. 00:00:02.207 --> 00:00:03.707 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:03.887 --> 00:00:04.577 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:05.253 --> 00:00:06.813 A very special episode today. 00:00:07.609 --> 00:00:11.509 None of us had checked the reviews on Apple Podcasts for quite a while. 00:00:11.959 --> 00:00:15.709 I, I don't even know how I found this, where I found it or if I 00:00:15.709 --> 00:00:19.429 could find it again, but I was stuffing around on my phone. 00:00:19.939 --> 00:00:20.394 Yeah, thank you. 00:00:20.419 --> 00:00:21.769 And I came across this. 00:00:21.799 --> 00:00:22.249 Yeah. 00:00:22.659 --> 00:00:29.026 We've had many wonderful correspondences from listeners, some of whom were already 00:00:29.026 --> 00:00:35.716 friends or acquaintances, but we've heard nice things from relative strangers and 00:00:35.716 --> 00:00:40.126 we've heard wonderful things from friends and that's really kept us going, I think. 00:00:40.306 --> 00:00:42.886 But this one is something else. 00:00:43.426 --> 00:00:43.516 Mm. 00:00:45.736 --> 00:00:46.096 Okay. 00:00:46.876 --> 00:00:49.471 28th of September, 2025. 00:00:51.811 --> 00:00:56.221 From Tim, Tammy, apple Podcasts Review. 00:00:56.791 --> 00:00:58.321 You are a great company. 00:00:58.321 --> 00:01:01.471 I can't see the rest of the title of the review, but look, 00:01:01.471 --> 00:01:02.761 here's the meat and potatoes. 00:01:04.261 --> 00:01:04.831 Thank you. 00:01:05.191 --> 00:01:08.341 I love having you two to fall back on when I can't sleep. 00:01:15.181 --> 00:01:20.131 When I'm in too much pain to stand due to cancer pain when I'm playing in my art 00:01:20.131 --> 00:01:23.821 studio, you're very funny but not stupid. 00:01:24.091 --> 00:01:24.901 Thank you for that. 00:01:25.231 --> 00:01:27.961 Your voices are gentle and remain at a constant level, which 00:01:27.961 --> 00:01:29.311 makes for such easy listening. 00:01:29.791 --> 00:01:34.981 You are both very intelligent, introspective, philosophical, all of 00:01:34.981 --> 00:01:39.961 these, and you make me want to think more, make you make me want to think more. 00:01:41.296 --> 00:01:43.516 I am dying of terminal cancer very slowly. 00:01:45.256 --> 00:01:47.536 I love having important things to think of 00:01:57.376 --> 00:01:58.756 as my light is going out. 00:01:58.996 --> 00:02:00.526 Thanks so much from Coberg. 00:02:01.906 --> 00:02:05.626 I wish I knew what you both look like so I can see you in my mind's eye. 00:02:09.661 --> 00:02:10.201 Is that it? 00:02:10.831 --> 00:02:13.621 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:02:14.131 --> 00:02:15.001 Pretty powerful. 00:02:15.061 --> 00:02:16.081 This is why we do it. 00:02:16.801 --> 00:02:19.561 It made me think, this is why we do it. 00:02:19.711 --> 00:02:26.101 We haven't really known why we were doing it other than we like talking a lot. 00:02:27.301 --> 00:02:29.041 Um, yes, sir. 00:02:29.911 --> 00:02:30.271 And. 00:02:30.916 --> 00:02:34.336 I feel like we haven't, I'm trying to think of when we've 00:02:34.336 --> 00:02:37.336 heard from someone, we'd never, we'd had no idea who they were. 00:02:38.236 --> 00:02:43.727 So, because you said the whole time that this will get out there and mm-hmm. 00:02:44.057 --> 00:02:45.017 Find an audience. 00:02:45.077 --> 00:02:45.287 Yeah. 00:02:45.287 --> 00:02:51.377 You know, and if the audience is just this one person who we don't know, uh, I think 00:02:51.377 --> 00:02:53.057 the whole thing's totally worthwhile. 00:02:53.657 --> 00:02:55.187 Uh, I couldn't agree more. 00:02:56.156 --> 00:03:01.796 I was thinking just today about some excellent advice for anyone who's 00:03:02.936 --> 00:03:08.366 trying to write something or paint or you know, just deliver anything and 00:03:08.366 --> 00:03:11.646 you're not, you know, you've got your ideas, you know what you want to say. 00:03:14.151 --> 00:03:20.336 If there's some one person that you can direct it to and really go for 00:03:20.336 --> 00:03:24.716 that, this person will really get this. 00:03:25.796 --> 00:03:32.366 And you're not trying to address the world, you're trying to meet somebody 00:03:32.486 --> 00:03:35.576 specific in their experience with yours. 00:03:36.296 --> 00:03:38.156 And that is some of the best stuff. 00:03:39.326 --> 00:03:41.606 And I can't tell you the exact quote and who it's from, but I 00:03:41.606 --> 00:03:44.276 think it's advice that gets around and I think it's really true. 00:03:44.516 --> 00:03:49.286 Well, yeah, I, I mean, I'm deeply moved that. 00:03:50.516 --> 00:03:54.086 We've gotten through to Tim, Tammy, whoever Tim, Tammy is. 00:03:54.086 --> 00:03:57.026 We don't even know if it's a man or a woman or non-binary or whatever. 00:03:57.296 --> 00:03:57.746 Yeah. 00:03:57.836 --> 00:03:59.306 Um, we have no idea. 00:03:59.546 --> 00:04:02.696 And feel free to write to us again if you wanna see what we look like. 00:04:02.696 --> 00:04:07.376 You can have a look on the 10,000 things podcast, uh, Instagram account. 00:04:07.916 --> 00:04:08.306 Yeah. 00:04:08.426 --> 00:04:09.431 Um, and there's, that's true. 00:04:09.431 --> 00:04:10.826 There's a few photos of us up there. 00:04:10.826 --> 00:04:10.991 You'll be. 00:04:12.326 --> 00:04:13.436 Hardly disappointed. 00:04:13.736 --> 00:04:17.306 Well, maybe we need to put some fresh material on there. 00:04:18.176 --> 00:04:18.536 Maybe. 00:04:18.536 --> 00:04:20.756 Look, there's definitely a photo of each of us on there. 00:04:20.876 --> 00:04:22.826 Yeah, I think we should get one right now. 00:04:22.946 --> 00:04:24.536 And, uh, put that on there. 00:04:24.536 --> 00:04:27.296 I'll see if I can take a selfie to save myself. 00:04:27.836 --> 00:04:30.806 Just let this, just, let this elder, millennial. 00:04:32.186 --> 00:04:34.736 Sort through some boomer shit here for a sec. 00:04:34.766 --> 00:04:36.686 And uh, your phone's upside down now. 00:04:36.746 --> 00:04:37.556 Yeah, no, no. 00:04:37.556 --> 00:04:38.606 Now it's the right way off. 00:04:38.636 --> 00:04:39.056 Alright. 00:04:39.146 --> 00:04:39.596 Okay. 00:04:39.716 --> 00:04:41.636 And, oh, you can press the side button, can't you? 00:04:41.636 --> 00:04:42.506 I never do that. 00:04:42.506 --> 00:04:46.226 I can press the side button and maybe, maybe I can just about make this work. 00:04:46.281 --> 00:04:47.846 Oh, oh, maybe if I lean back. 00:04:47.846 --> 00:04:48.356 Oh, yeah. 00:04:48.416 --> 00:04:48.866 Okay. 00:04:48.866 --> 00:04:51.056 Now we'll get the mics out of our faces for a sec. 00:04:51.086 --> 00:04:52.136 Oh, okay. 00:04:53.876 --> 00:04:54.356 All right. 00:04:54.596 --> 00:04:56.876 That's the, that's the two of us. 00:04:56.936 --> 00:04:57.416 Okay. 00:04:57.626 --> 00:05:00.986 You're gonna post that on the off chance that Tim Tammy goes on the. 00:05:01.181 --> 00:05:01.211 Instagram. 00:05:02.616 --> 00:05:02.836 Yep. 00:05:03.786 --> 00:05:04.076 Okay. 00:05:04.361 --> 00:05:05.351 I'm gonna send it. 00:05:05.501 --> 00:05:08.381 I'm gonna send it to you, Joe, and you can, you can be the curator. 00:05:08.441 --> 00:05:08.921 Okay. 00:05:09.281 --> 00:05:09.851 All right. 00:05:09.941 --> 00:05:14.381 So, you know, 'cause you want to know, well, as they say, 00:05:14.381 --> 00:05:15.911 we've got faces for radio. 00:05:15.971 --> 00:05:16.391 Yeah. 00:05:17.501 --> 00:05:18.191 I mean, I think we do. 00:05:18.191 --> 00:05:18.491 Okay. 00:05:18.491 --> 00:05:19.841 We talked about this years ago. 00:05:19.841 --> 00:05:22.091 You know, we're all sixes, right? 00:05:23.351 --> 00:05:24.281 Yeah. 00:05:24.551 --> 00:05:29.561 I mean, we've both got body image issues in Yes, it's true. 00:05:29.651 --> 00:05:31.301 In different directions. 00:05:31.391 --> 00:05:32.141 Yeah, very true. 00:05:32.201 --> 00:05:33.911 I was looking at my body just this morning. 00:05:34.601 --> 00:05:39.581 Uh, before I went to work going, geez, that is average, but it's No, no, no. 00:05:39.581 --> 00:05:40.721 Like worse than that. 00:05:40.721 --> 00:05:42.341 Like, geez, that's a bit disgusting. 00:05:42.761 --> 00:05:44.261 Oh, I'm actually revolting myself. 00:05:44.396 --> 00:05:44.686 Yeah. 00:05:44.691 --> 00:05:45.191 Yeah. 00:05:45.191 --> 00:05:48.161 Like what a, just a, yeah, amorphous. 00:05:48.731 --> 00:05:51.221 Just unimpressive, unattractive glob. 00:05:51.221 --> 00:05:52.121 That is god damn. 00:05:52.121 --> 00:05:53.231 Look at this sack of shit. 00:05:53.231 --> 00:05:53.621 Will you? 00:05:53.681 --> 00:05:53.981 Yeah. 00:05:54.101 --> 00:05:54.491 Yeah. 00:05:54.491 --> 00:05:55.721 It's a good way to start the day. 00:05:55.781 --> 00:05:57.701 A bit of mirror time in the bathroom. 00:05:58.911 --> 00:06:00.441 But I don't wanna do anything about it. 00:06:00.441 --> 00:06:03.651 Sam, you know, I don't want to go to the gym four times a week and 00:06:03.891 --> 00:06:05.961 no, uh, eat nothing but protein. 00:06:05.961 --> 00:06:07.011 And you like a walk? 00:06:07.461 --> 00:06:09.051 Yeah, I go for the odd walk, Sam. 00:06:09.051 --> 00:06:12.321 And that's all I, I don't wanna be forced to do any more than that. 00:06:12.471 --> 00:06:14.751 But You're a tired ass working dad these days, aren't you? 00:06:15.231 --> 00:06:18.651 Well, we were talking before about how you don't feel like a tired old 00:06:18.651 --> 00:06:23.721 man, and it didn't hit me too hard because right now sitting here mm-hmm. 00:06:23.961 --> 00:06:27.381 I don't feel too tired either, and I've No, you know, worked nearly a full week. 00:06:28.226 --> 00:06:29.486 I'm still pretty fresh. 00:06:29.696 --> 00:06:30.026 Yeah. 00:06:30.176 --> 00:06:30.746 Um. 00:06:31.841 --> 00:06:34.511 I've taken a, wearing a baseball cap to work Yeah. 00:06:34.511 --> 00:06:37.511 Is a striking 'cause I feel like it takes a few years off me and I'm 00:06:37.511 --> 00:06:40.211 down with the kids when I'm hanging out with the mental health patients. 00:06:40.301 --> 00:06:40.751 Yeah. 00:06:40.961 --> 00:06:44.351 You know, and I've, but I've managed to hang so much shit on myself about it. 00:06:44.411 --> 00:06:47.111 And I've got one older guy in the office who's just giving 00:06:47.111 --> 00:06:48.551 it to me about the hat as well. 00:06:48.731 --> 00:06:49.541 You're enjoying that? 00:06:49.601 --> 00:06:50.651 Yeah, I'm loving that. 00:06:50.656 --> 00:06:50.866 Yeah. 00:06:50.866 --> 00:06:51.371 Yeah, yeah. 00:06:51.371 --> 00:06:52.601 He's, he's the best. 00:06:53.231 --> 00:06:55.181 Um, you gotta give people some. 00:06:55.271 --> 00:06:56.051 Material. 00:06:56.081 --> 00:06:56.321 Yeah. 00:06:56.321 --> 00:06:59.021 You gotta give him something to just, just hammer you with. 00:06:59.051 --> 00:06:59.351 Yeah. 00:06:59.356 --> 00:06:59.396 Yeah. 00:06:59.411 --> 00:07:01.181 Every time he sees me with a hat, you know. 00:07:01.601 --> 00:07:07.091 Oh, that is taking years off you because I, I turned 46 on Saturday. 00:07:07.151 --> 00:07:08.801 Ah, congratulations. 00:07:08.861 --> 00:07:11.711 Well, I actually heard from a friend of the show, Catherine, oh. 00:07:11.741 --> 00:07:13.721 For my birthday, which was unexpected. 00:07:13.871 --> 00:07:16.691 Well, thank you for reaching out to this old man. 00:07:17.471 --> 00:07:18.341 Cheering him up a little. 00:07:18.341 --> 00:07:21.941 Yeah, definitely put a, a pep in my step. 00:07:22.331 --> 00:07:24.221 Uh, there you go. 00:07:24.341 --> 00:07:24.821 Yeah. 00:07:24.881 --> 00:07:28.271 So that was good and, and, um, healthy and positive. 00:07:28.721 --> 00:07:28.931 Mm. 00:07:28.991 --> 00:07:35.891 Um, but yeah, I've, you know, you go from 45 to 46 and you are still mid forties, 00:07:35.891 --> 00:07:37.271 so it doesn't really change that much. 00:07:37.301 --> 00:07:38.471 Yeah, I know what you mean. 00:07:38.651 --> 00:07:39.881 Like, it's not a very. 00:07:40.286 --> 00:07:41.906 You know, it's not significant. 00:07:41.906 --> 00:07:42.806 No, it's not. 00:07:43.316 --> 00:07:46.526 I mean, what was way more, yeah, what was way more significant for me, honestly, 00:07:46.526 --> 00:07:49.256 30 caused me much more anxiety than 40. 00:07:49.256 --> 00:07:49.826 Than 40. 00:07:49.826 --> 00:07:50.426 Yeah. 00:07:50.426 --> 00:07:50.666 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:07:50.666 --> 00:07:53.366 I mean, you could ask anyone who like knew me at all at the time. 00:07:54.086 --> 00:07:56.456 Uh, I mean, I don't know either. 00:07:56.456 --> 00:07:58.976 Either I'm an incorrigible drama queen, which is probably true. 00:07:59.516 --> 00:08:02.216 Uh, or I don't know. 00:08:02.216 --> 00:08:04.586 But I was just like telling anyone who'd listen. 00:08:05.066 --> 00:08:06.686 Uh, this party. 00:08:06.746 --> 00:08:07.286 This party. 00:08:07.316 --> 00:08:07.526 Yeah. 00:08:07.526 --> 00:08:08.336 I'm, it's gonna be a great party. 00:08:08.906 --> 00:08:12.596 But, ugh, what have I done with my life? 00:08:12.836 --> 00:08:14.996 Was that you're still working in hospitality at 30? 00:08:14.996 --> 00:08:15.356 Yeah. 00:08:15.476 --> 00:08:15.746 Yep. 00:08:15.806 --> 00:08:21.206 I was still a zy rat, and I was kind of like, I hadn't even really, I was 00:08:21.206 --> 00:08:23.036 like, oh, am I moving back to Melbourne? 00:08:23.396 --> 00:08:24.116 Am I staying here? 00:08:24.116 --> 00:08:24.866 What am I doing? 00:08:25.256 --> 00:08:29.186 Like 28, 29, major crossroads time in my life. 00:08:29.366 --> 00:08:33.686 Mm Uh and yeah, a real sense of crisis. 00:08:33.686 --> 00:08:37.706 A feeling of like in Joseph Campbell's, you know, the hero with a thousand faces. 00:08:38.696 --> 00:08:42.896 The approach to the innermost cave, a feeling of impending doo. 00:08:43.156 --> 00:08:44.751 Oh, that was turning 30 life and death. 00:08:44.781 --> 00:08:45.071 Yeah. 00:08:45.141 --> 00:08:45.431 Yeah. 00:08:45.436 --> 00:08:45.676 Yeah. 00:08:45.676 --> 00:08:48.586 You make your peace with death by 46 to some extent. 00:08:48.646 --> 00:08:50.056 I think that might be true. 00:08:50.266 --> 00:08:53.146 I think once, uh, I mean, until about 150 years ago, that's all 00:08:53.146 --> 00:08:54.976 you really got was about 40 years. 00:08:55.456 --> 00:08:55.756 Yeah. 00:08:55.756 --> 00:08:58.066 You know, until the life expectancy skyrocketed. 00:08:58.636 --> 00:08:58.996 Yeah. 00:08:58.996 --> 00:09:03.886 And, and yeah, I guess it's like, I guess we can't quibble too much, I 00:09:03.886 --> 00:09:07.426 suppose, and if we get another, if we get another 20 years, it's like, okay. 00:09:07.486 --> 00:09:08.476 Well, yeah. 00:09:08.506 --> 00:09:12.526 And, and as, uh, I don't know, bill Burs talked a lot about this. 00:09:13.361 --> 00:09:18.281 Uh, you know, um, grappling with many fears and stuff, which you 00:09:18.281 --> 00:09:22.151 constantly, in his case, manifested in anger or alcohol or, you know, 00:09:22.525 --> 00:09:25.045 rage at inanimate objects and stuff. 00:09:25.285 --> 00:09:28.795 But yeah, big thing for him, he took some mushrooms and like, he already knew it on 00:09:28.795 --> 00:09:33.175 some level, but he's like, oh yeah, no, there's a deep void and loneliness at the 00:09:33.175 --> 00:09:34.945 center of me, and I'm afraid of death. 00:09:36.295 --> 00:09:36.625 Yeah. 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.285 And, and he's like, but it gets easier on the back nine, you know? 00:09:40.465 --> 00:09:40.615 Yeah. 00:09:40.615 --> 00:09:41.340 You're like, I'm on the back nine. 00:09:42.010 --> 00:09:42.310 Yeah. 00:09:42.340 --> 00:09:44.170 What psychedelics will show you that stuff. 00:09:44.350 --> 00:09:48.190 Last time I took psychedelics, it showed me that death was not something to fear. 00:09:48.250 --> 00:09:49.690 So when was that? 00:09:49.810 --> 00:09:52.090 Uh, I had a large dose of ketamine. 00:09:52.390 --> 00:09:52.780 Ooh. 00:09:52.900 --> 00:09:56.770 And, um, yeah, I was made very clear to me not to worry about death. 00:09:56.770 --> 00:09:58.120 Plus I hung out with a dead guy. 00:09:58.930 --> 00:09:59.350 Oh, yeah? 00:09:59.440 --> 00:09:59.980 Yeah. 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:01.810 Who I hadn't seen since he died. 00:10:02.530 --> 00:10:04.420 Um, a guy called Mark, my old drug dealer. 00:10:05.140 --> 00:10:07.270 Oh, and he, he came to you and Yeah. 00:10:07.270 --> 00:10:10.420 Just hung out and there was no time in there, so it went on for like eternity. 00:10:10.540 --> 00:10:10.660 Oh. 00:10:10.660 --> 00:10:14.350 You just got to hang out in the forever four dimensional inters, spatial void. 00:10:15.070 --> 00:10:15.400 Yeah. 00:10:15.400 --> 00:10:15.520 Yep. 00:10:15.790 --> 00:10:16.390 Whoa. 00:10:16.420 --> 00:10:21.520 The last time I took any drug I'd met God and God said to me, and 00:10:21.520 --> 00:10:24.220 it was only nitrous oxide, but I managed to get a huge tank of it. 00:10:24.490 --> 00:10:24.850 Yeah. 00:10:25.270 --> 00:10:26.740 And um, alright. 00:10:27.760 --> 00:10:32.530 God said to me, I was like, I went into God's office and God said to me. 00:10:33.175 --> 00:10:33.625 What do you want? 00:10:33.685 --> 00:10:35.335 There's nothing to worry about, Joe. 00:10:35.340 --> 00:10:35.755 No, no. 00:10:35.905 --> 00:10:36.805 Everything's great. 00:10:37.615 --> 00:10:39.505 Everything's okay. 00:10:40.075 --> 00:10:40.795 Better than okay. 00:10:40.795 --> 00:10:41.365 It's amazing. 00:10:41.365 --> 00:10:42.805 Look how amazing all this is. 00:10:43.765 --> 00:10:48.325 But then God said to me, do you think you're ever gonna understand all this? 00:10:48.805 --> 00:10:53.485 And then God laughed at me and kicked me out of his, her it. 00:10:53.575 --> 00:10:54.955 I can't, I couldn't tell you that part. 00:10:55.705 --> 00:10:57.565 Office flunked and then flunked. 00:10:57.925 --> 00:10:58.590 I was back in. 00:10:59.215 --> 00:11:05.785 My bedroom in Footscray and I terrified myself and I've never taken a drug since. 00:11:06.235 --> 00:11:09.355 And I don't know if, I think I probably had overdosed. 00:11:09.595 --> 00:11:09.805 Oh. 00:11:10.465 --> 00:11:13.375 And I think I might have died like that. 00:11:13.405 --> 00:11:18.085 'cause I've on nitrous, nitrous ox, I've since heard of someone, um, who died from 00:11:18.085 --> 00:11:20.665 from it, otherwise known as Whippers. 00:11:20.695 --> 00:11:21.055 Nang. 00:11:21.055 --> 00:11:22.105 Nang, yeah. 00:11:22.465 --> 00:11:23.665 The Grateful Dead used to. 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:26.380 Um, get on a canister every now and then. 00:11:26.410 --> 00:11:27.160 They weren't whippets. 00:11:27.160 --> 00:11:29.170 They had a fucking cylinder of this. 00:11:29.170 --> 00:11:31.750 Well, I had, I managed to get a cylinder off eBay. 00:11:31.810 --> 00:11:32.050 Yeah. 00:11:32.050 --> 00:11:34.810 Which is easy to procure 'cause it's not illegal. 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:35.260 Okay. 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:35.860 All right. 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:36.280 Yeah. 00:11:36.310 --> 00:11:39.160 Well, it's not a controlled substance, I guess so, I mean, 00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:40.990 like the ketamine was after I. 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:44.420 Stopped drinking for, I hadn't drunk for years. 00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:44.810 Oh yeah. 00:11:44.810 --> 00:11:48.560 How did that sit with like the must maintain 100% absolute sobriety? 00:11:48.560 --> 00:11:49.640 What was the exception there? 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:53.930 Well, I wasn't doing, you know, what everyone else in 00:11:53.930 --> 00:11:55.430 the Secret Society was doing. 00:11:55.520 --> 00:11:56.720 I was doing my own thing. 00:11:56.930 --> 00:11:57.350 Yeah. 00:11:57.350 --> 00:11:59.810 And in the end, it wasn't working for me, Sam, because in the 00:11:59.810 --> 00:12:01.400 end I ended up full of fear. 00:12:01.430 --> 00:12:03.440 You had to get with the program? 00:12:03.530 --> 00:12:06.800 Yeah, eventually, but it took about six or seven years. 00:12:07.685 --> 00:12:08.735 Um, do you really, really? 00:12:08.740 --> 00:12:10.355 But the ketamine really thought you'd wrestle it. 00:12:10.415 --> 00:12:13.655 Yeah, well, the ketamine thing was a curiosity because I'd taken all 00:12:13.655 --> 00:12:17.315 the other drugs that I'd wanted to take that I'd never gotten around 00:12:17.315 --> 00:12:19.745 to ketamine before I'd become sober. 00:12:20.195 --> 00:12:20.315 Yeah. 00:12:20.345 --> 00:12:22.595 So then I was with a younger woman. 00:12:22.595 --> 00:12:26.045 I was dating a woman who was about 32 at the time, and of course on 00:12:26.045 --> 00:12:30.605 the weekend she would have friends over and they would take drugs. 00:12:30.605 --> 00:12:33.740 So this was a sacrament perhaps we could dignify Well. 00:12:34.705 --> 00:12:37.945 I just wanted to know why the kids were taking ketamine. 00:12:37.945 --> 00:12:38.515 Put it that way. 00:12:38.545 --> 00:12:38.815 Okay. 00:12:38.815 --> 00:12:39.055 Hang on. 00:12:39.055 --> 00:12:40.525 So, so they're not going wild. 00:12:40.615 --> 00:12:42.985 They're like having like nice experiences. 00:12:42.985 --> 00:12:46.045 No, but then I grabbed it and did like half a gram or whatever. 00:12:46.105 --> 00:12:47.095 Oh, you absolute pig. 00:12:47.155 --> 00:12:47.545 Yeah. 00:12:47.605 --> 00:12:48.040 And then I'm. 00:12:48.985 --> 00:12:50.125 Hung out with my dead friend. 00:12:50.125 --> 00:12:50.965 Time stopped. 00:12:51.775 --> 00:12:51.835 Wow. 00:12:51.865 --> 00:12:54.295 Well, time is always an illusion, right? 00:12:54.325 --> 00:12:54.985 Yes. 00:12:55.345 --> 00:12:57.175 We're gonna get into some of this stuff with the quote. 00:12:57.180 --> 00:13:00.625 We've, we've gone on a sidetrack, but have we addressed Tim, Tammy enough? 00:13:00.625 --> 00:13:01.945 Is there anything else we wanna say to Tim? 00:13:01.945 --> 00:13:03.535 Tammy, we hope you're still listening. 00:13:03.595 --> 00:13:08.245 Well, and like, reach out to us again please. 00:13:08.425 --> 00:13:08.695 Okay. 00:13:08.695 --> 00:13:10.030 So I'm gonna say yeah. 00:13:10.035 --> 00:13:10.345 Yeah. 00:13:10.345 --> 00:13:12.475 If you don't do Instagram fair enough. 00:13:12.865 --> 00:13:15.505 Um, at the 10,000 things podcast on there. 00:13:16.165 --> 00:13:19.885 Uh, but yeah, if you hate meta products and Fair enough, then why don't you just 00:13:19.885 --> 00:13:25.705 send an old fashioned email to 2 2 2 2 2? 00:13:25.795 --> 00:13:27.445 I'm pretty sure it's at Outlook, Sam. 00:13:27.565 --> 00:13:27.955 Yeah. 00:13:28.015 --> 00:13:32.035 The 10,000 things@outlook.com. 00:13:32.125 --> 00:13:33.235 Is it, is that right? 00:13:33.235 --> 00:13:35.965 The, I'm gonna Oh, the 10,000 things podcast. 00:13:36.340 --> 00:13:40.030 No, I think it's just the 10,000 things we would love to hear from you again, Tim. 00:13:40.030 --> 00:13:41.890 Tammy, it was, I will check that. 00:13:41.890 --> 00:13:42.400 I feel bad. 00:13:42.400 --> 00:13:46.120 It took us months to even find that comment, but that's just our systems 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:47.950 here at the 10,000 things office. 00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:49.750 Comprehensive systems. 00:13:49.750 --> 00:13:50.260 That's right. 00:13:50.290 --> 00:13:51.319 We such as. 00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:54.479 Trusting in fate and random chance, et cetera. 00:13:54.539 --> 00:13:59.039 And, uh, yeah, letting things unfold as they will, the level of loneliness 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:02.789 that I have to get to before I'm scrolling through my own podcasts. 00:14:02.969 --> 00:14:04.139 Oh, you know, apple. 00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:05.459 Are there any other reviews on there? 00:14:05.699 --> 00:14:07.709 I couldn't, I don't even know how I found it. 00:14:08.129 --> 00:14:09.929 I could never find my way back there. 00:14:10.439 --> 00:14:10.739 Oh God. 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:11.879 Um, should we do the quote? 00:14:11.999 --> 00:14:16.889 Uh, well, yeah, before we do, I was gonna say, I thought it was about to basically. 00:14:17.239 --> 00:14:21.679 That we were gonna carry on in this vein for the rest of the time because 00:14:21.709 --> 00:14:25.759 of boundless thoughts about what Tim Tammy has said and what, oh, you 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:27.109 don't wanna do the quote this week? 00:14:27.139 --> 00:14:29.779 No, I do wanna do the quote 'cause I think it does have a bearing on 00:14:29.779 --> 00:14:33.079 this, but also I just really like the quote, but I did wanna say it like 00:14:33.079 --> 00:14:37.069 what you were saying before about God telling you, you know, chill. 00:14:38.329 --> 00:14:38.779 Yes. 00:14:38.779 --> 00:14:40.369 Don't hold on so tightly, man. 00:14:40.459 --> 00:14:41.569 You're just white knuckling it. 00:14:41.629 --> 00:14:41.899 Yes. 00:14:41.899 --> 00:14:43.219 Like, yeah. 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.759 And then I go back in my normal state is like three coffees 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:48.199 a day and a lot of anxiety. 00:14:48.229 --> 00:14:49.129 A lot of white knuckling. 00:14:49.219 --> 00:14:49.579 Yeah. 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:50.089 Yeah. 00:14:50.389 --> 00:14:54.229 About things that I can't control and have no influence over, so I 00:14:54.229 --> 00:14:57.709 don't get to stay in that enlightened state that nitrous oxide took before 00:14:57.769 --> 00:14:59.314 to perhaps just before I died. 00:15:00.709 --> 00:15:02.239 And I don't say that in a joking way. 00:15:02.239 --> 00:15:04.189 I actually mean that No, you, that you might have, you might've like 00:15:04.219 --> 00:15:05.839 shut your brain off for a second. 00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:06.769 Yeah. 00:15:06.769 --> 00:15:07.549 Like proper. 00:15:07.729 --> 00:15:08.059 Yeah. 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:09.109 In a dangerous way. 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:10.849 Yeah. 00:15:10.939 --> 00:15:11.719 Well, hang on. 00:15:11.719 --> 00:15:13.309 How long do you think you were like that? 00:15:14.029 --> 00:15:16.249 There was no, there wasn't much time in there either, so 00:15:16.249 --> 00:15:17.629 well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:17.989 --> 00:15:18.679 Interesting. 00:15:18.739 --> 00:15:19.069 Yeah. 00:15:19.129 --> 00:15:19.819 Was anyone on? 00:15:19.819 --> 00:15:23.269 I know I can tell you though, because it only ever lasts about 45 seconds. 00:15:23.269 --> 00:15:24.139 No, it's not a long time. 00:15:24.469 --> 00:15:25.489 And there was no one else there. 00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:27.024 I, the door was barred. 00:15:28.459 --> 00:15:29.299 I had the door bared. 00:15:29.299 --> 00:15:29.359 Whew. 00:15:30.319 --> 00:15:30.439 Yeah. 00:15:30.439 --> 00:15:30.679 Great. 00:15:30.679 --> 00:15:31.429 You were strapping in. 00:15:31.459 --> 00:15:33.079 They might not have found me for days. 00:15:33.529 --> 00:15:34.099 Oof. 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:36.619 Anyway, I don't think I'm gonna take drugs again. 00:15:36.619 --> 00:15:36.979 Sam. 00:15:36.979 --> 00:15:39.469 I kind of, I kind of like that you did that. 00:15:39.499 --> 00:15:41.779 'cause I think maybe sometimes you like to just. 00:15:42.154 --> 00:15:45.694 Not nudge it, but just you just like, I need to fucking find the limit here. 00:15:45.694 --> 00:15:48.994 I'm just gonna go up as hard against it as I can, and then I'll know. 00:15:49.084 --> 00:15:51.964 The least interesting thing I ever explored was alcohol. 00:15:52.894 --> 00:15:56.074 I mean, you went deep with it, but I, but, but it's not that interesting. 00:15:56.074 --> 00:15:58.024 It really isn't because. 00:15:58.354 --> 00:16:03.424 It doesn't really alter your consciousness in any kind of useful or interest. 00:16:03.424 --> 00:16:04.084 I can't even remember. 00:16:04.084 --> 00:16:05.164 It's been over 10 years. 00:16:05.164 --> 00:16:06.184 I can't even remember. 00:16:06.184 --> 00:16:07.834 Is it like a sleepy feeling? 00:16:08.014 --> 00:16:11.464 I remember it could be a bit of a fuel like feeling for me at times. 00:16:11.464 --> 00:16:11.734 Sure. 00:16:11.734 --> 00:16:12.394 Absolutely. 00:16:12.424 --> 00:16:12.844 No, no, no. 00:16:13.024 --> 00:16:16.144 It has a certain predictable effect on my body chemistry. 00:16:16.144 --> 00:16:19.234 And you might have found that too, but like the, you know, were you 00:16:19.234 --> 00:16:20.734 having a couple of cans tonight, Sam? 00:16:20.734 --> 00:16:21.124 I am. 00:16:21.349 --> 00:16:21.619 Absolutely. 00:16:21.619 --> 00:16:23.329 You just loosened right up. 00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:24.559 Uh, un fun. 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:25.519 Around the podcast. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.869 I have, I've let, I've let down the guardrails and it's 00:16:29.869 --> 00:16:31.189 a bit like Joe Rogan, is it? 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:36.739 You're gonna start just blazing the joints and you know, like doing five 00:16:36.739 --> 00:16:38.899 hour episodes, light one up with Bernie. 00:16:39.019 --> 00:16:39.559 Yeah. 00:16:39.619 --> 00:16:40.939 That's the best thing he ever did. 00:16:40.999 --> 00:16:42.019 That EP with Bernie. 00:16:42.289 --> 00:16:45.409 Everything else was, uh, I mean look, in the way back in the 00:16:45.409 --> 00:16:46.999 early days, he would actually. 00:16:48.574 --> 00:16:52.324 Kind of, he would talk to just like old comedians and stuff, and there was often 00:16:52.324 --> 00:16:54.094 a lot of humanity in those episodes. 00:16:54.094 --> 00:16:57.634 Like he, he had some genuine compassion and regard for those people. 00:16:57.634 --> 00:17:01.899 And it wasn't like, it wasn't about big talking points and it was more just a bit. 00:17:03.184 --> 00:17:06.544 Bro hang, but like not terribly bad in that way. 00:17:06.694 --> 00:17:06.934 Yeah. 00:17:06.934 --> 00:17:08.554 And I just thought, yeah, this guy's fine. 00:17:08.554 --> 00:17:11.704 But then, you know, just little by little audience captured Joe. 00:17:12.004 --> 00:17:16.504 But what I wanted to say was what you were saying about God, you know, kicking 00:17:16.504 --> 00:17:21.004 you out of their office after Yes. 00:17:21.004 --> 00:17:26.014 You asking a redundant question, which was, will I ever understand everything? 00:17:26.584 --> 00:17:28.684 No, there was no, I didn't ask a question. 00:17:28.684 --> 00:17:30.184 God knew that I wanted to know. 00:17:31.189 --> 00:17:31.609 Oh yeah. 00:17:31.609 --> 00:17:32.119 No, no, no. 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.249 They took the question outta your brain. 00:17:34.249 --> 00:17:34.309 Yeah. 00:17:34.309 --> 00:17:36.589 And went You didn't listen to the first thing I told you. 00:17:38.269 --> 00:17:38.689 Yeah. 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:40.549 Which is, see, I don't get vision. 00:17:40.549 --> 00:17:44.449 But see, I took all the, I took, I mean, I just, I had an interesting 00:17:44.449 --> 00:17:46.519 experience recently, actually, Sam. 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.639 I went back and listened to Ramdas's, full story. 00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:54.799 Which he must have told thousands of times because he, for a terminal 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:56.209 illness, didn't he rammed us? 00:17:56.209 --> 00:17:56.629 Yeah. 00:17:56.634 --> 00:17:58.519 Oh, he died as an old man. 00:17:58.549 --> 00:17:58.879 Oh no. 00:17:58.879 --> 00:17:59.209 Right. 00:17:59.209 --> 00:17:59.599 Yeah, he did. 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:04.699 But this his sixties story where he spends seven years taking acid Oh yeah. 00:18:04.699 --> 00:18:05.059 Right. 00:18:05.329 --> 00:18:06.949 And all kinds of other drugs. 00:18:06.949 --> 00:18:08.809 And then goes to India and finds a gu. 00:18:09.949 --> 00:18:12.019 Um, he's like, I don't need any of that anymore. 00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:12.259 I've got them. 00:18:12.259 --> 00:18:15.979 And then he gives the guru a really high dose of LSD and 00:18:15.979 --> 00:18:17.449 nothing happens to the guru. 00:18:17.539 --> 00:18:18.109 Oh, okay. 00:18:18.139 --> 00:18:24.379 But the, the, the strange thing I realize is I've got my spirituality, 00:18:24.379 --> 00:18:25.639 which I'm happy to talk about. 00:18:25.819 --> 00:18:26.119 Yeah. 00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:34.579 But I just can't anymore with Ramdas's story because by the time he gets so. 00:18:35.389 --> 00:18:39.259 I like, what I'm trying to say is I took a large doses of LSD and had 00:18:39.259 --> 00:18:44.629 incredible experiences, but in the end I met God with the canister off of, 00:18:45.229 --> 00:18:47.059 uh, nitrous oxide I bought on eBay. 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:47.509 Yeah. 00:18:47.569 --> 00:18:50.089 So maybe I never even needed the LSD, you know what I mean? 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:50.659 Yeah. 00:18:50.689 --> 00:18:56.749 But, but Ramdat claimed that his, uh, guru could read his mind and tell the 00:18:56.749 --> 00:19:01.639 future, and this time around listening to Ramdas, and he is Mystic, mystic Cities. 00:19:01.639 --> 00:19:01.909 Yeah. 00:19:01.969 --> 00:19:02.659 He is. 00:19:03.064 --> 00:19:04.714 An amazing storyteller. 00:19:04.744 --> 00:19:05.974 Like he's brilliant. 00:19:06.154 --> 00:19:09.124 Like he's doing podcasts before podcasts were even invented. 00:19:09.214 --> 00:19:09.784 Yeah, he kinda was. 00:19:09.784 --> 00:19:10.024 Yeah. 00:19:10.084 --> 00:19:12.934 He is incredible storyteller. 00:19:12.934 --> 00:19:16.294 But this time around, even with my spiritual experiences, 00:19:16.984 --> 00:19:19.084 I just can't come at that. 00:19:19.234 --> 00:19:22.384 I don't actually believe that his guru could read his mind. 00:19:22.414 --> 00:19:24.964 I don't actually believe his guru could tell the future. 00:19:25.084 --> 00:19:25.564 Yeah. 00:19:25.624 --> 00:19:28.204 I just have to say ramdas for whatever. 00:19:28.264 --> 00:19:30.064 I don't know why you are telling me this. 00:19:30.439 --> 00:19:31.879 But I don't believe you. 00:19:32.299 --> 00:19:36.619 So I had this moment of excuse and he's been a big bit of a guide for me 00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:37.909 in the last five or six years Sure. 00:19:37.909 --> 00:19:39.679 As I've been discovering spirituality. 00:19:40.249 --> 00:19:43.099 And I had to be like, I just can't come at this anymore. 00:19:43.099 --> 00:19:43.489 You know? 00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:45.049 That's, that's interesting. 00:19:45.109 --> 00:19:48.409 And I can't, I don't even believe you gave him a really high dose of 00:19:48.409 --> 00:19:49.819 LSD and nothing happened to him. 00:19:49.819 --> 00:19:51.019 I don't believe that either. 00:19:51.589 --> 00:19:51.949 Yeah. 00:19:51.949 --> 00:19:54.349 Look, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna help, I, I might be able to help a 00:19:54.349 --> 00:19:58.429 tiny bit with all of this because I happen to know that, like. 00:19:59.194 --> 00:20:03.664 Look, I'm a bit of a, what you would call, I don't know, guru connoisseur 00:20:03.664 --> 00:20:05.294 or whatever, like Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:20:05.734 --> 00:20:10.144 Having grown up in, see, a lot of people are fully aware of the Hari 00:20:10.144 --> 00:20:15.064 Krishnas, you know, with the colorful robes and saris and the, the didis 00:20:15.064 --> 00:20:18.634 in the, the room and like it's all very kind of ly pagan and stuff. 00:20:19.234 --> 00:20:20.614 But, um. 00:20:21.289 --> 00:20:26.629 What's not maybe as obvious straight away is that actually Hari Krishnas and well, 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:32.479 NARS and uh, Sikhs also, well, which is kind of where the Hari stole this from. 00:20:32.479 --> 00:20:36.139 The Sikhs, they worship the guru primarily. 00:20:36.229 --> 00:20:37.429 That's actually the big thing. 00:20:37.609 --> 00:20:37.969 Yeah. 00:20:38.089 --> 00:20:40.999 So you might say there's a bit of a reflection of this in Jesus. 00:20:40.999 --> 00:20:45.199 Like God's, God's God, God's the Father, Jesus is the son. 00:20:45.199 --> 00:20:47.539 But, uh, kind of another way to think about it is Jesus was the guru. 00:20:48.274 --> 00:20:48.604 Mm. 00:20:48.664 --> 00:20:51.724 And he was the way to, you know, God, right? 00:20:51.724 --> 00:20:55.804 And that's how it's talked about amongst Sikhs guru, the founder. 00:20:56.104 --> 00:21:01.834 And in the religion I grew up in Nia, Maha Pbu, the funder, the founder. 00:21:02.284 --> 00:21:08.464 And so he was both an incarnation of God, but in the form of his own devotee. 00:21:08.854 --> 00:21:11.974 So he was giving an example of how to show devotion towards God, 00:21:11.974 --> 00:21:14.974 how to show surrender, how to. 00:21:15.814 --> 00:21:17.824 See the way to God through the Guru. 00:21:18.274 --> 00:21:21.184 So basically, I grew up in a guru worshiping cult, and this 00:21:21.184 --> 00:21:25.234 led to predictable consequences, financial, sexual abuse, and, 00:21:25.264 --> 00:21:27.094 you know, terrible things. 00:21:27.154 --> 00:21:31.084 Uh, on the other hand, it did help a lot of people also now. 00:21:32.149 --> 00:21:34.369 Ramdas has been a guru for you. 00:21:35.689 --> 00:21:41.299 And what I've learned about Gurus is they tend to talk about lineage and they tend 00:21:41.299 --> 00:21:45.109 to base some of their own credibility on the credibility of their guru. 00:21:45.139 --> 00:21:48.979 And there is an incentive maybe to inflate some of that a little bit. 00:21:49.489 --> 00:21:54.559 And Pro Party used to say like, oh yes, yes, you will meet gurus in India. 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.279 There are plenty of gurus, and they will tell you that they have powers. 00:21:58.834 --> 00:22:01.564 Yeah, they can take an object from far away. 00:22:02.014 --> 00:22:03.694 They can read minds. 00:22:03.694 --> 00:22:06.814 They can, you know, they, maybe they'll pull a coin out of your ear. 00:22:07.144 --> 00:22:08.674 Cheap conjuring tricks. 00:22:09.364 --> 00:22:11.674 Spirituality's not about conjuring tricks. 00:22:12.334 --> 00:22:15.264 It's about the method, the truth, and doing it right now. 00:22:15.264 --> 00:22:16.524 I'm sure you would agree with that. 00:22:16.884 --> 00:22:18.744 Now, I will give Ramdas a little bit of credit here. 00:22:18.984 --> 00:22:20.004 This was kind of a. 00:22:20.904 --> 00:22:24.474 Typical sort of claim that might be made at the time? 00:22:25.044 --> 00:22:28.284 Well, what he about gurus having these powers of insight into you. 00:22:28.284 --> 00:22:28.374 Why? 00:22:28.674 --> 00:22:31.494 What I don't doubt is, I think he did felt, did feel 00:22:31.494 --> 00:22:33.774 seen by that guru profoundly. 00:22:33.834 --> 00:22:34.044 Yeah. 00:22:34.044 --> 00:22:34.944 I'm sure that's true. 00:22:35.274 --> 00:22:36.264 Yes. 00:22:36.504 --> 00:22:38.964 I'm, I don't think he's a total con artist. 00:22:39.534 --> 00:22:39.834 No. 00:22:40.284 --> 00:22:45.834 But what Ramdas did, which is what I wanted to do, was, uh, took a lot 00:22:45.834 --> 00:22:48.174 of acid, but then eventually mm-hmm. 00:22:48.624 --> 00:22:50.154 Decided, as he said. 00:22:50.844 --> 00:22:52.734 Eventually you always come down. 00:22:52.944 --> 00:22:53.154 Yes. 00:22:53.184 --> 00:22:54.744 And that's not good enough for me. 00:22:54.864 --> 00:22:55.074 No. 00:22:55.074 --> 00:23:00.564 So he went and tried to find what acid was and what it meant. 00:23:00.804 --> 00:23:01.104 Yeah. 00:23:01.344 --> 00:23:03.804 And he came to the conclusion that Hinduism. 00:23:04.179 --> 00:23:04.449 Yeah. 00:23:04.479 --> 00:23:05.949 Can fully explain LSD. 00:23:06.009 --> 00:23:06.429 Yes. 00:23:06.459 --> 00:23:10.539 And it's, and within Hinduism, LSD is like no big deal. 00:23:10.539 --> 00:23:13.299 The, those experiences, they, they're cities, their powers. 00:23:13.299 --> 00:23:13.359 Yeah. 00:23:13.389 --> 00:23:14.169 Mystic Cities. 00:23:14.169 --> 00:23:14.379 Yeah. 00:23:14.409 --> 00:23:14.739 Yeah. 00:23:14.739 --> 00:23:16.959 Like, and it's known and it's understood. 00:23:16.959 --> 00:23:19.299 And then he became, uh, religious. 00:23:19.369 --> 00:23:20.479 Person, essentially. 00:23:20.479 --> 00:23:20.569 Yes. 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.719 From being a Harvard professor to becoming That's right. 00:23:23.719 --> 00:23:26.839 A spiritual teacher for the rest of his life, life, Gita, et cetera, et cetera. 00:23:26.959 --> 00:23:27.199 Yeah. 00:23:27.199 --> 00:23:30.169 And for the rest of his life, he was a spiritual entertainer. 00:23:30.169 --> 00:23:31.639 A bit like Alan Watts, you know? 00:23:31.669 --> 00:23:31.909 Yeah. 00:23:31.909 --> 00:23:33.919 He was a holy man and a showman. 00:23:33.979 --> 00:23:34.369 Yeah. 00:23:34.369 --> 00:23:34.759 Yes. 00:23:34.789 --> 00:23:35.569 Um, yes. 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:42.229 And, but like I, I, I realized I think I have to let go of 00:23:42.229 --> 00:23:43.729 Ramdas, and I think you're right. 00:23:43.729 --> 00:23:45.529 I think he became a guru for me. 00:23:46.074 --> 00:23:49.134 And in a way it distracted me from the path I was already on. 00:23:49.404 --> 00:23:49.704 Yeah. 00:23:49.734 --> 00:23:54.474 Because my current S spiritual advisor also took hundreds of acid trips. 00:23:54.594 --> 00:23:54.714 Mm-hmm. 00:23:55.097 --> 00:23:56.027 and he said. 00:23:56.867 --> 00:23:59.387 Yeah, but I never took him that seriously. 00:23:59.837 --> 00:24:00.377 Ah. 00:24:00.467 --> 00:24:04.787 And anyone who tried to find the meaning of LSD went insane. 00:24:04.787 --> 00:24:06.887 So he just thought he'd treat it as a laugh. 00:24:07.487 --> 00:24:07.787 Yeah. 00:24:07.787 --> 00:24:09.017 That's probably the right attitude. 00:24:09.017 --> 00:24:09.947 Wisdom, right? 00:24:09.947 --> 00:24:10.367 Yeah. 00:24:10.487 --> 00:24:14.517 And that's my actual spiritual teacher who I know and I'm working with. 00:24:14.517 --> 00:24:15.917 Yeah, he's the flesh and blood. 00:24:16.607 --> 00:24:17.117 Yeah. 00:24:17.147 --> 00:24:17.627 Yeah. 00:24:17.867 --> 00:24:18.587 So it's true. 00:24:18.587 --> 00:24:22.787 I, that's my natural meaning seeking mind, probably coming out of us. 00:24:23.102 --> 00:24:25.832 Slightly traumatic childhood with alcoholic parents. 00:24:25.922 --> 00:24:26.012 Mm-hmm. 00:24:26.252 --> 00:24:30.692 My meeting seeking mind latched onto LSD at 19 and said, 00:24:30.692 --> 00:24:32.102 this is the meaning of life. 00:24:32.102 --> 00:24:32.162 Yeah. 00:24:32.927 --> 00:24:36.047 And in the end it ended up in my bedroom with a door bar. 00:24:36.377 --> 00:24:36.587 Mm. 00:24:36.647 --> 00:24:39.587 And huffing a huge canister of nitrous oxide. 00:24:39.587 --> 00:24:44.027 And then the decision came, my drug taking days are over, and that's 00:24:44.027 --> 00:24:46.517 been about three and a bit years now. 00:24:46.577 --> 00:24:50.117 Well, it's nice to get a decisive verdict back from the universe. 00:24:50.117 --> 00:24:51.617 Experience through your own body. 00:24:51.977 --> 00:24:52.187 Yeah. 00:24:52.187 --> 00:24:53.062 That's not had those. 00:24:54.067 --> 00:24:58.867 I could imagine dying and meeting God and God saying, isn't it glorious? 00:24:58.957 --> 00:25:00.787 And there was never anything to worry about. 00:25:00.907 --> 00:25:00.997 Yeah. 00:25:00.997 --> 00:25:02.017 And now, who knows? 00:25:02.017 --> 00:25:03.007 I don't know the next part. 00:25:03.007 --> 00:25:05.677 I'm not saying I, I can't make any claims about life after death. 00:25:06.187 --> 00:25:06.337 Mm. 00:25:06.367 --> 00:25:09.127 But it's good news, right? 00:25:09.637 --> 00:25:10.087 Yeah. 00:25:10.267 --> 00:25:13.447 I'm, I'm a big, I'm gonna like, yeah. 00:25:13.447 --> 00:25:15.397 I'm gonna join you in the good news. 00:25:15.907 --> 00:25:17.377 I think I'm a good news guy. 00:25:17.617 --> 00:25:18.007 Yeah. 00:25:18.067 --> 00:25:18.457 Yeah. 00:25:19.172 --> 00:25:23.492 And, uh, we'll see how long I can keep it up, but I certainly have had a lot of 00:25:23.492 --> 00:25:25.082 conversations in the last week or two. 00:25:25.652 --> 00:25:31.142 Uh, and going back a little further, no, I, in fact, I even remember this 00:25:31.142 --> 00:25:35.432 time years ago, and with some colleagues in a small meeting, like we'd been, 00:25:35.432 --> 00:25:40.532 you know, assigned to this, um, you know, new policy, the government, 00:25:40.532 --> 00:25:43.292 you know, get together in your professional learning communities and, 00:25:43.292 --> 00:25:44.917 uh, three or four people and, you know. 00:25:45.922 --> 00:25:48.502 Work on your work as teachers together right now. 00:25:48.502 --> 00:25:50.032 This is actually a very good suggestion. 00:25:50.332 --> 00:25:54.112 Now, a lot of people, and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that teachers 00:25:54.112 --> 00:25:59.362 that intentionally, you know, maintain communities of professional practice 00:25:59.362 --> 00:26:02.842 will do better in their job, but also they'll have more resilience in their job. 00:26:02.842 --> 00:26:04.312 They'll won't burn out as much. 00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:07.390 they'll be able to weather the storms, you know, in the, the long 00:26:07.390 --> 00:26:10.030 periods of wondering whether you're being effective or not, that every 00:26:10.030 --> 00:26:12.400 teacher has to grapple with, but. 00:26:14.020 --> 00:26:16.780 Everyone was kinda sitting there just feeling a bit put upon like, oh, we have 00:26:16.780 --> 00:26:18.490 to spend an hour every week doing this. 00:26:18.490 --> 00:26:21.550 You know, like just another three letter acronym. 00:26:22.030 --> 00:26:25.960 And I had kind of had this moment of like three weeks in. 00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:27.880 I was insanely tired all the time. 00:26:28.330 --> 00:26:30.100 My second child wasn't sleeping. 00:26:30.381 --> 00:26:33.861 and so I, you could imagine I'd be pretty prone to like joining them in a good 00:26:33.861 --> 00:26:37.251 old grumble about, you know, just being made to do another meaningless thing. 00:26:38.091 --> 00:26:41.061 And then I was kind of like, well, who says it's meaningless? 00:26:42.141 --> 00:26:44.421 We've got this time together in this room. 00:26:44.421 --> 00:26:45.561 We can do what we want with it. 00:26:45.981 --> 00:26:47.871 We can sit and have a big whinge if we want. 00:26:48.171 --> 00:26:53.961 We can hold hands, we can read a position paper from the, the Department 00:26:53.961 --> 00:26:57.861 of Education and try to figure good, uh, well, eventually they actually, I 00:26:57.861 --> 00:27:00.891 started reading bits and I was like, Hey, some of these memos they're 00:27:00.891 --> 00:27:02.121 putting out, they're actually good. 00:27:02.601 --> 00:27:05.991 You know, uh, I was, blew me away. 00:27:06.576 --> 00:27:09.426 I was, I, you know, at the outset of my career, I was like, the 00:27:09.426 --> 00:27:10.926 department is there to be tolerated. 00:27:11.226 --> 00:27:12.786 It's a poll bureau at best. 00:27:13.086 --> 00:27:18.996 Uh, and if it circulates a, you know, a paper saying, wouldn't 00:27:18.996 --> 00:27:20.196 it be good if we all do this? 00:27:20.196 --> 00:27:23.796 It'll probably tell me something I already know and, uh, irrelevant. 00:27:24.516 --> 00:27:25.776 But I found myself going, no, no. 00:27:25.776 --> 00:27:26.916 Let's show a little faith. 00:27:27.156 --> 00:27:29.356 I think there might be someone there that. 00:27:29.856 --> 00:27:32.376 Has some good intentions or good idea, and what do you know? 00:27:32.376 --> 00:27:33.366 This is actually well written. 00:27:33.366 --> 00:27:36.906 It might even be practical and more importantly, I can use it to push my 00:27:36.906 --> 00:27:40.776 reform agenda here at this place as a loyal servant of the department. 00:27:41.526 --> 00:27:42.336 But then I went, no, no, no. 00:27:42.336 --> 00:27:47.766 The real lesson here is what if I just treat this as a good opportunity and I 00:27:47.766 --> 00:27:49.086 just go, Hey, what do you guys wanna do? 00:27:49.086 --> 00:27:50.796 Do you want, you know, do you want to commune? 00:27:51.276 --> 00:27:52.476 That's what this is about. 00:27:52.656 --> 00:27:53.586 Let's get around the cancer. 00:27:53.586 --> 00:27:55.776 How does that relate to the good news about dying, though? 00:27:56.466 --> 00:27:56.736 Well. 00:27:57.351 --> 00:28:03.171 It's just like you can sit there and feel resigned or cynical or apathetic or 00:28:03.171 --> 00:28:06.351 put upon, or any number of which I felt all of those things, many times in our 00:28:06.351 --> 00:28:09.861 work and my relationships and parenting and all that, just constantly confronted 00:28:09.861 --> 00:28:11.931 by these feelings of being put upon. 00:28:12.741 --> 00:28:17.121 And I'm like, or oh, and the system's effed and it's just getting worse by 00:28:17.121 --> 00:28:21.201 the day and there's nothing anyone can do and look what's happening in 00:28:21.201 --> 00:28:22.311 there and look what's happening there. 00:28:22.311 --> 00:28:23.421 And I'm like, uh, yeah. 00:28:23.421 --> 00:28:25.371 Or we could have revolutionary optimism. 00:28:26.781 --> 00:28:31.341 And join in fellowship with all the others that are in the same struggle. 00:28:31.431 --> 00:28:32.541 Oh, I like Fellowship. 00:28:33.501 --> 00:28:33.771 Yeah. 00:28:34.221 --> 00:28:34.431 Yeah. 00:28:34.431 --> 00:28:37.521 I'm in a fellowship because there's often a missing piece in Yes, you're in 00:28:37.521 --> 00:28:41.601 a fellowship and there, there's a missing piece often with left-wing politics, 00:28:42.051 --> 00:28:47.735 uh, which on some level embraces the idea of like, doing it for the others. 00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:47.770 Right. 00:28:48.710 --> 00:28:50.000 Doing it for yourself. 00:28:50.030 --> 00:28:50.810 With the others. 00:28:50.810 --> 00:28:51.860 For the others, right? 00:28:52.250 --> 00:28:55.850 So all that kind of, you know, mutual liberation, you know, 00:28:55.940 --> 00:28:57.680 lefties, were good on that stuff. 00:28:57.830 --> 00:29:00.770 But, you know, David grab appointed this out. 00:29:00.770 --> 00:29:01.340 It's like, 00:29:03.860 --> 00:29:07.640 you know, proper revolutionary PO politics needs more joy in it. 00:29:08.555 --> 00:29:12.845 You need to be talking more about pleasure and, and fun and, well, I'm 00:29:12.845 --> 00:29:16.475 not a revolutionary, as you know, fan life affirming activities and you know, 00:29:16.475 --> 00:29:20.885 I'm a centrist, which is really fun actually 'cause we win so many elections. 00:29:21.335 --> 00:29:25.715 Ah, it's such a, it's must be nice. 00:29:26.285 --> 00:29:28.895 Just watch out for all those splinters up your ass, you know? 00:29:30.095 --> 00:29:34.175 And I've only been at Cirus for a couple years, but it's very comfortable. 00:29:34.175 --> 00:29:34.985 But can I just say. 00:29:35.455 --> 00:29:40.285 I don't think that centrists get to experience revolutionary optimism. 00:29:40.315 --> 00:29:41.245 No, no. 00:29:41.245 --> 00:29:47.305 We, we've experienced just a mild unease y Yeah, that's right. 00:29:47.545 --> 00:29:50.215 And and just a feeling that if we just made some slight adjustments, 00:29:50.215 --> 00:29:51.175 everything would be fine. 00:29:53.245 --> 00:29:54.085 That's exactly. 00:29:54.265 --> 00:29:57.865 And what, what exactly in all of your spiritual experiences, you know, 00:29:57.865 --> 00:29:59.515 supports any of these conclusions. 00:29:59.515 --> 00:30:00.025 I wonder. 00:30:00.115 --> 00:30:00.715 But anyway. 00:30:01.375 --> 00:30:01.735 Alright. 00:30:01.735 --> 00:30:02.665 Should we read the quote? 00:30:02.695 --> 00:30:04.555 My point there was simply that. 00:30:05.210 --> 00:30:07.070 I don't know, seize the goddamn moment. 00:30:07.070 --> 00:30:07.970 Something like that. 00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:10.670 Make, make something of it if we're here. 00:30:11.270 --> 00:30:14.300 Your point was you're a good news guy about more than just death. 00:30:14.690 --> 00:30:15.320 Yes. 00:30:15.380 --> 00:30:17.150 You're just a good news guy in general. 00:30:17.180 --> 00:30:20.990 There's so much good news, not just the literal good news that does happen 00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:24.530 every day, et cetera, but like we can. 00:30:24.801 --> 00:30:28.971 Trust in some good things being in every moment and in the future. 00:30:29.241 --> 00:30:31.881 And I, and I think we should be reminding each other all the time. 00:30:31.881 --> 00:30:32.841 I'm loving the time, I'm loving this, I'm loving this mood from, 00:30:32.841 --> 00:30:35.421 you've been in a good mood since I got here a couple of hours ago. 00:30:36.291 --> 00:30:38.451 It's like, yeah, you've gotta pep in your step. 00:30:38.691 --> 00:30:39.261 I do. 00:30:39.741 --> 00:30:41.011 And uh, you know. 00:30:41.616 --> 00:30:44.526 It's not for nothing, but I've been going in this direction anyway. 00:30:44.946 --> 00:30:45.276 Yeah. 00:30:45.336 --> 00:30:48.516 Now let's hear from David Hume, and this actually is David Hume, 18th 00:30:48.516 --> 00:30:53.076 century, uh, enlighten, enlightenment, Scottish Enlightenment philosopher. 00:30:53.256 --> 00:30:53.676 Yes. 00:30:53.706 --> 00:30:54.156 Writer. 00:30:54.456 --> 00:30:54.906 Yeah. 00:30:55.476 --> 00:30:56.106 Did he? 00:30:56.346 --> 00:30:57.096 Oof. 00:30:57.396 --> 00:31:00.156 I don't dunno much about David Hume and I have no idea. 00:31:00.186 --> 00:31:04.176 Literally, Sam, how this quote ended up in my phone, Uhhuh, but I was digging 00:31:04.176 --> 00:31:08.706 through it probably in another moment of loneliness, like when I found Tim Tammy. 00:31:08.826 --> 00:31:09.066 Yeah. 00:31:09.516 --> 00:31:13.326 And, uh, I found this quote, and it's a bit mysterious to me. 00:31:13.326 --> 00:31:16.176 I think it comes out of a book about spirituality. 00:31:16.296 --> 00:31:16.716 Alright. 00:31:17.076 --> 00:31:19.896 But it's just a David Hume quote from the 18th century. 00:31:20.256 --> 00:31:20.796 Okay. 00:31:21.186 --> 00:31:24.816 Alright, so it starts here. 00:31:24.816 --> 00:31:25.596 It's quite short. 00:31:27.006 --> 00:31:27.336 Um. 00:31:27.711 --> 00:31:31.161 I might in a moment get a get a second to like look up the actual 00:31:31.161 --> 00:31:34.971 provenance of this for my part. 00:31:35.211 --> 00:31:41.841 When I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on 00:31:41.841 --> 00:31:48.321 some particular perception or other of heat or cold, light or shade, 00:31:48.741 --> 00:31:51.141 love or hatred, pain or pleasure. 00:31:52.011 --> 00:31:56.721 I never catch myself at any time without perception. 00:31:57.006 --> 00:31:57.066 Yeah. 00:31:57.846 --> 00:32:01.866 And never can observe anything but the perception. 00:32:02.616 --> 00:32:07.596 So I mean it's what's missing from Pretty, pretty true and straight up. 00:32:07.806 --> 00:32:08.286 Yeah. 00:32:08.286 --> 00:32:09.816 And what's missing, Sam? 00:32:10.416 --> 00:32:12.936 I think that, maybe write it down in my phone. 00:32:12.966 --> 00:32:13.326 Yeah. 00:32:13.326 --> 00:32:16.571 The point that David Hume perhaps was trying to make all those years ago. 00:32:17.601 --> 00:32:22.971 What, what's missing is David Hume and where is the separate self in all 00:32:22.971 --> 00:32:24.921 that you go look, just perceptions. 00:32:24.951 --> 00:32:30.051 You go looking for the self and all you get is perceptions just 00:32:30.051 --> 00:32:32.541 a never ending stream of mm-hmm. 00:32:32.786 --> 00:32:35.091 Outward and in inner perceptions. 00:32:35.451 --> 00:32:35.721 Mm-hmm. 00:32:36.051 --> 00:32:39.081 And that, that with no fixed abode. 00:32:39.921 --> 00:32:42.801 And no fixed place to land and No, that's right. 00:32:42.891 --> 00:32:44.151 There's no Joe over here. 00:32:44.151 --> 00:32:48.261 There's no Sam over there, no permanently constituted residence for these things. 00:32:48.321 --> 00:32:48.891 And yeah. 00:32:48.891 --> 00:32:50.391 Oh, we all know the body's temporary. 00:32:50.391 --> 00:32:50.691 Right? 00:32:50.961 --> 00:32:55.281 But maybe the consciousness is just as temporary and, and there's a lot 00:32:55.281 --> 00:33:00.051 of people that believe in an eternal consciousness, you know, as some form of 00:33:00.051 --> 00:33:02.061 lack, immortality of the soul or whatever. 00:33:02.311 --> 00:33:06.930 this doesn't sort of strike against that for or against that in any particular way. 00:33:07.267 --> 00:33:09.697 in a sense it's, it's a bit agnostic, you know? 00:33:09.727 --> 00:33:13.327 It's like maybe there's a self, maybe there isn't, but there seems to be a 00:33:13.327 --> 00:33:17.017 problem with pinning it down and then, but see, you could solve a lot of problems by 00:33:17.017 --> 00:33:18.667 just going, maybe there isn't what I love. 00:33:19.687 --> 00:33:20.197 Yeah. 00:33:20.197 --> 00:33:21.547 That's what part of what he's getting at. 00:33:22.087 --> 00:33:27.007 What I love about this quote is it's someone who's very smart, much 00:33:27.007 --> 00:33:31.507 smarter than me, just observing their own experience, honestly. 00:33:31.957 --> 00:33:33.067 And whenever people. 00:33:33.472 --> 00:33:38.512 Like, you know, I probably got introduced to the realization that 00:33:38.512 --> 00:33:45.172 the separate self is an illusion by Sam Harris, who's very firm on that. 00:33:45.772 --> 00:33:46.522 He's, hang on, sorry. 00:33:46.522 --> 00:33:49.222 He's firm on the separate self being an illusion. 00:33:49.432 --> 00:33:50.332 Yeah, yeah. 00:33:50.332 --> 00:33:53.692 And then obviously it has a lineage in Buddhism that goes 00:33:53.692 --> 00:33:55.792 back way beyond David Hume. 00:33:56.182 --> 00:34:01.552 It's a 3000 year old cornerstone of Buddhism that there is no separate self. 00:34:01.794 --> 00:34:08.844 yes, but there is some experience of a consciousness perceiving that, which is 00:34:08.844 --> 00:34:14.484 what Descartes was on about that, that, you know, what seems undoubtable, you 00:34:14.484 --> 00:34:20.154 know, to Renee around about the same time as Hume here a little early, I guess. 00:34:20.244 --> 00:34:21.619 Um, I think the 4:00 AM. 00:34:22.659 --> 00:34:27.309 Yeah, that he's like, well, something is perceiving this thing. 00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:29.349 And I guess it's a thinking thing. 00:34:29.349 --> 00:34:32.199 So I am something that thinks, yeah, I think you got it wrong. 00:34:32.499 --> 00:34:33.099 Yeah. 00:34:33.549 --> 00:34:37.269 Well, dualism has now been conclusively struck down by neuroscience. 00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:40.419 So I mean, they always knew that it was nonsense. 00:34:40.479 --> 00:34:43.899 But the other part is if we're just a flow of perceptions with no 00:34:43.899 --> 00:34:46.389 separate self, why does that matter? 00:34:46.419 --> 00:34:47.029 But I think it's. 00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:51.009 I'm not very good at talking about it, and it was always gonna be challenging, 00:34:51.009 --> 00:34:56.619 so I'm glad we talked a lot of shit before we got to it, but I can't explain it very 00:34:56.769 --> 00:35:01.599 well, but I think it's the most important thing I ever realized about reality. 00:35:01.749 --> 00:35:01.989 Mm-hmm. 00:35:02.229 --> 00:35:05.139 Is that this whole Joe thing that's such a fucking. 00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:06.279 Problem. 00:35:06.309 --> 00:35:07.449 It's such a burden, isn't it? 00:35:07.449 --> 00:35:10.809 It's such a burden and it's such a disaster in so many ways. 00:35:11.649 --> 00:35:13.989 Like you were looking at that thing in the mirror this 00:35:13.989 --> 00:35:15.039 morning going, what a disaster. 00:35:15.309 --> 00:35:15.369 Yeah. 00:35:15.369 --> 00:35:17.469 This slob that's, yeah. 00:35:17.499 --> 00:35:23.239 Like that's apart from drug experiences is just full of anxiety and, like 00:35:23.389 --> 00:35:27.049 gripping on white, knuckling through each day, worrying about all these 00:35:27.049 --> 00:35:28.699 things that he can't control. 00:35:28.939 --> 00:35:31.369 That whole complex of stuff. 00:35:31.459 --> 00:35:33.409 It doesn't actually exist. 00:35:33.499 --> 00:35:33.679 Mm-hmm. 00:35:33.709 --> 00:35:36.439 Like all there is is the flow of the present moment. 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:36.769 Mm-hmm. 00:35:36.829 --> 00:35:41.209 And actually, me, here with you, Sam, the separation that seems to be between 00:35:41.209 --> 00:35:43.519 us on this couch is a bit of an optical. 00:35:43.729 --> 00:35:43.819 Mm-hmm. 00:35:43.909 --> 00:35:46.851 Well, it's what, Einstein called it optical delusion. 00:35:46.911 --> 00:35:47.241 Mm-hmm. 00:35:47.391 --> 00:35:49.701 That we are somehow separate from the universe. 00:35:49.761 --> 00:35:51.501 I'm actually not separate from you. 00:35:51.531 --> 00:35:51.801 No. 00:35:52.821 --> 00:35:53.991 You know, like, no. 00:35:54.021 --> 00:35:56.541 And, and that's where sex becomes such a. 00:35:57.126 --> 00:35:58.536 Uh, peak experience. 00:35:58.626 --> 00:35:58.686 Yeah. 00:35:58.861 --> 00:36:00.366 'cause it's the, it's the big thing. 00:36:00.636 --> 00:36:01.596 It's the, yeah. 00:36:02.436 --> 00:36:04.836 It's the physical experience of union. 00:36:04.836 --> 00:36:04.896 Yeah. 00:36:05.736 --> 00:36:07.686 And seeing through that illusion. 00:36:07.806 --> 00:36:08.076 Yeah. 00:36:08.256 --> 00:36:10.446 Now I'm not coming onto you by saying that. 00:36:10.716 --> 00:36:12.666 Oh, well, we could try and make out, see how it goes. 00:36:15.816 --> 00:36:17.016 I don't think it'll do it for you. 00:36:17.346 --> 00:36:19.536 We've had 25 years We would've done it by now. 00:36:19.536 --> 00:36:19.896 Yeah. 00:36:19.956 --> 00:36:20.736 Will they, won't they? 00:36:20.736 --> 00:36:21.666 No, they, they won't. 00:36:21.816 --> 00:36:22.506 We not exactly. 00:36:22.506 --> 00:36:23.496 M molder and Scully. 00:36:23.676 --> 00:36:23.796 No. 00:36:24.396 --> 00:36:25.326 Smolder. 00:36:27.015 --> 00:36:28.679 yeah, but help me out here, Sam. 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:29.609 You're a smart guy. 00:36:29.669 --> 00:36:30.719 What am I on about? 00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:31.484 Oh, no, no. 00:36:31.484 --> 00:36:32.429 What's David Hu on about? 00:36:32.429 --> 00:36:33.684 I just thought I'd let you kind of. 00:36:34.454 --> 00:36:36.224 Go at it your own way. 00:36:36.704 --> 00:36:41.054 And while I gathered the threads that, you know, I had picked up a 00:36:41.054 --> 00:36:43.274 little while ago when I first thought about this quote, and then we had 00:36:43.274 --> 00:36:44.534 a bit of a delay getting to it. 00:36:45.044 --> 00:36:45.494 Okay? 00:36:45.764 --> 00:36:51.194 So I was dimly aware, but I now can confirm I think this quote or very similar 00:36:51.614 --> 00:36:54.014 sort of reflections from him come from. 00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.089 A treatise on human nature. 00:36:57.389 --> 00:37:01.619 Book one part four, section six of personal identity. 00:37:02.009 --> 00:37:04.859 So he's obviously got at least a whole chapter on. 00:37:06.869 --> 00:37:08.279 Personal identity. 00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:12.389 And, uh, he does appear to be a little skeptical about it. 00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:16.079 And one of the other things, I had a quote that I'd forgotten of his, that 00:37:16.469 --> 00:37:22.109 the, the mind is a theater of sorts where perceptions come one after the other. 00:37:22.109 --> 00:37:26.789 So I think he's, you know, elaborated on this point quite a lot and. 00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.089 You know, there's another lengthy quote here, but the words are a little 00:37:30.089 --> 00:37:31.469 too small for me to read properly. 00:37:31.739 --> 00:37:35.784 I may venture to affirm of the rest of mankind that they're nothing but a bundle. 00:37:36.509 --> 00:37:38.459 Or collection of different perceptions. 00:37:39.329 --> 00:37:39.359 Mm. 00:37:39.359 --> 00:37:44.129 Which succeed each other with an inconceivable rapidity, yes. 00:37:44.189 --> 00:37:47.219 And are in a perpetual flux and movement. 00:37:47.549 --> 00:37:50.969 Our eyes cannot turn in their sockets without varying our perceptions. 00:37:50.969 --> 00:37:54.479 Our thought is still more variable than our sight. 00:37:54.509 --> 00:38:00.449 How true that is, and all our other senses and faculties contribute to this change, 00:38:00.959 --> 00:38:03.569 nor is there any single power of the soul. 00:38:04.109 --> 00:38:06.089 Which remains unalterably the same. 00:38:06.329 --> 00:38:07.139 Mm, okay. 00:38:07.229 --> 00:38:07.919 Interesting. 00:38:08.609 --> 00:38:10.589 Perhaps for one moment. 00:38:10.889 --> 00:38:13.329 So there, there is no, I love that. 00:38:13.329 --> 00:38:16.129 There's no single power of the salt, because, but hang on. 00:38:16.129 --> 00:38:18.079 But Sam, what's he unpicking here? 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:19.489 Is it a western? 00:38:20.164 --> 00:38:22.234 Like idea of the individual. 00:38:22.234 --> 00:38:25.354 Does it come from like Plato or something? 00:38:25.354 --> 00:38:26.884 Like what don't understand here? 00:38:26.914 --> 00:38:29.194 Like what, what am I trying to pull apart? 00:38:29.194 --> 00:38:34.204 Was that I thought I was a Western style individual separate from all the 00:38:34.204 --> 00:38:37.684 other individuals and separate from the universe is how I always thought. 00:38:38.164 --> 00:38:41.344 Until one day Sam Harris tells me, oh, there's no separate self. 00:38:41.629 --> 00:38:43.129 Well, is that what I used to think? 00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:43.879 I can't remember. 00:38:43.879 --> 00:38:44.899 I think you probably did. 00:38:45.019 --> 00:38:45.289 Right? 00:38:45.319 --> 00:38:49.399 And I, but also I may, I just, and there was a rock solid Joe Loh Yeah. 00:38:49.489 --> 00:38:50.389 That existed. 00:38:50.449 --> 00:38:50.629 Yeah. 00:38:50.629 --> 00:38:52.009 Outside of sort of everything. 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:52.369 Yeah. 00:38:52.459 --> 00:38:55.159 And you were probably dreadfully skeptical about it, a lot of things 00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:58.519 that you were right to be skeptical about, but that was like a, a last 00:38:58.519 --> 00:38:59.614 line of defense that you hadn't. 00:39:00.294 --> 00:39:02.244 You know, seen crumble yet. 00:39:02.304 --> 00:39:02.694 Yes. 00:39:02.694 --> 00:39:05.298 And then, and of course you've experienced psychosis, which, 00:39:05.298 --> 00:39:08.688 you know, I, I mean actually, you know, quite a number of people do 00:39:09.048 --> 00:39:11.748 experience, you know, at least a mild psychosis at some point in their life. 00:39:11.748 --> 00:39:14.688 But you had a pretty profound one where, yeah. 00:39:14.748 --> 00:39:15.888 I mean, I can't even imagine. 00:39:15.888 --> 00:39:19.068 And like I, I can sort of get the glimpse, a glimpse of what it might 00:39:19.068 --> 00:39:22.038 feel like, the texture of the sort of thoughts you might've been having. 00:39:22.188 --> 00:39:25.068 And they're gonna be like hard to kind of recollect now, like 00:39:25.068 --> 00:39:26.418 acid trips and things like that. 00:39:26.448 --> 00:39:26.778 Yeah. 00:39:27.238 --> 00:39:31.798 Um, it's kind of gonna be a bit of a fog, but there would be something, 00:39:31.858 --> 00:39:36.208 I imagine it like experiencing the dis disintegration of the self. 00:39:36.268 --> 00:39:36.928 Yes. 00:39:37.048 --> 00:39:37.498 Yeah. 00:39:37.798 --> 00:39:41.728 But there was also in psychosis, a hatred of the self where I was like spitting on 00:39:41.728 --> 00:39:43.468 myself and I was locked up in jail in. 00:39:44.518 --> 00:39:47.368 In Bangkok, I was like spitting on myself to show them that 00:39:47.368 --> 00:39:48.808 I didn't care about myself. 00:39:48.808 --> 00:39:49.418 That I, yeah, yeah. 00:39:49.648 --> 00:39:50.668 This is how you should treat me. 00:39:50.758 --> 00:39:52.078 Degrading myself. 00:39:52.108 --> 00:39:52.348 Yeah. 00:39:52.348 --> 00:39:53.368 I don't exist. 00:39:53.398 --> 00:39:55.678 That was my psychosis for whatever reason. 00:39:55.678 --> 00:39:56.008 Yeah. 00:39:56.248 --> 00:39:59.068 No, I can really relate to the idea of self annihilation 00:39:59.068 --> 00:40:00.418 and Yeah, self annihilation. 00:40:00.418 --> 00:40:00.718 Yeah. 00:40:01.108 --> 00:40:03.418 That's what I was just naturally going for at 19. 00:40:03.448 --> 00:40:03.748 Yeah. 00:40:04.048 --> 00:40:05.278 You know, it's like, oh yeah. 00:40:05.278 --> 00:40:07.648 Well I grew up with the Harrys telling me that it's, you know, 00:40:07.738 --> 00:40:11.454 sooner or later it's, my spiritual destiny to merge with the one. 00:40:11.994 --> 00:40:16.194 You know, whether you called Bhagavan or Pima or you know, the creator or 00:40:16.194 --> 00:40:21.190 the oneness or whatever, the Hari were super mad at the impersonal as they 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:26.350 called them, the May, who believed that there was no personality to God 00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:29.050 and they felt, or, you know, to the. 00:40:29.995 --> 00:40:33.655 The spirit of all things that it had no personality, it was just a oneness. 00:40:33.810 --> 00:40:37.590 they called the, those people mon also, those that claimed there 00:40:37.590 --> 00:40:39.270 was only one nature to all things. 00:40:39.270 --> 00:40:40.140 Yeah, the Godhead. 00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:42.360 Yes, the Godhead and that the higher Christians were quite 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:43.200 convinced that No, no, no. 00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:44.340 It's a dualist universe. 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:50.220 You know, there's, there's universes, there's Matter Property and spirit. 00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:51.030 Um. 00:40:52.185 --> 00:40:52.545 Mm. 00:40:52.815 --> 00:40:55.725 Tma and that these two things are separate. 00:40:56.355 --> 00:41:01.275 And so really it's kind of some Aristotelian sort of stuff, really. 00:41:01.335 --> 00:41:04.935 And I think that some of that philosophy was worked out a similar time as, you 00:41:04.935 --> 00:41:08.175 know, the position the Greeks were taking on the existence of a soul. 00:41:08.235 --> 00:41:11.475 And I think Hume is kind of going at that a bit here. 00:41:11.505 --> 00:41:11.595 Mm-hmm. 00:41:11.983 --> 00:41:15.403 now I believe he was also sort of remained a Christian. 00:41:15.403 --> 00:41:16.423 I could be wrong about that. 00:41:16.423 --> 00:41:16.753 I think so. 00:41:16.753 --> 00:41:18.617 But so he says. 00:41:19.847 --> 00:41:22.727 Our thought is still more variable than our site and all our other senses and 00:41:22.727 --> 00:41:26.537 faculties contribute to this change, nor is there any single power of 00:41:26.537 --> 00:41:29.687 the soul, which remains unalterably the same perhaps for one moment. 00:41:30.167 --> 00:41:33.587 So he's like, yeah, what is this thing you are claiming is a con constant existence? 00:41:33.587 --> 00:41:37.097 It doesn't seem to be the mind is a kind of theater where several perceptions 00:41:37.097 --> 00:41:42.407 successively make their appearance pass repa gl away and mingle in an infinite 00:41:42.407 --> 00:41:44.387 variety of postures and situations. 00:41:44.387 --> 00:41:45.137 I mean, this is. 00:41:45.507 --> 00:41:48.087 Sky's saying clearly he's dropping bars. 00:41:48.117 --> 00:41:49.437 Yeah, like, whew. 00:41:50.067 --> 00:41:51.357 And he didn't drop any acid? 00:41:51.507 --> 00:41:52.977 No, probably not. 00:41:53.037 --> 00:41:53.337 There is. 00:41:53.337 --> 00:41:54.087 It wasn't invented yet. 00:41:54.657 --> 00:41:54.717 No. 00:41:54.717 --> 00:41:56.457 He might have had some bad bread, but No. 00:41:56.607 --> 00:41:57.867 You know, there is. 00:41:58.107 --> 00:41:58.857 I don't think so. 00:41:58.947 --> 00:41:59.127 No. 00:41:59.127 --> 00:42:00.567 He's just thinking carefully about stuff. 00:42:01.317 --> 00:42:01.647 That's it. 00:42:02.157 --> 00:42:06.712 He's just tuning into his own experience of the eternal flow of the present moment. 00:42:06.807 --> 00:42:06.897 Yeah. 00:42:06.992 --> 00:42:07.317 I like it. 00:42:07.317 --> 00:42:09.507 Now I'm into things you can do on a cup of coffee. 00:42:10.217 --> 00:42:10.487 Yeah. 00:42:10.547 --> 00:42:13.397 You know, like what David Hume's doing, he can do on a cup of tea. 00:42:13.457 --> 00:42:13.787 Yeah. 00:42:13.817 --> 00:42:15.047 Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:42:15.167 --> 00:42:18.977 Uh, you know, um, there's puns in Zen about. 00:42:19.697 --> 00:42:23.777 Tea and meditation having a similar, you know, uh, sound. 00:42:24.107 --> 00:42:24.167 Yeah. 00:42:24.167 --> 00:42:26.627 And so it's like, you know, just a little bit of caffeine there, you know. 00:42:26.632 --> 00:42:26.682 Yeah. 00:42:27.287 --> 00:42:29.267 So you don't fall asleep during the meditation. 00:42:29.267 --> 00:42:29.327 Yeah. 00:42:29.327 --> 00:42:32.687 And, but you know, so then he, I'll finish the passage. 00:42:32.987 --> 00:42:36.767 There is properly no simplicity in it at one time. 00:42:36.767 --> 00:42:40.847 I mean, there's no simplicity in you, Sam, I dunno about everyone else. 00:42:40.907 --> 00:42:43.427 Uh, I do not experience conscious Joe. 00:42:44.607 --> 00:42:48.147 Do not experience consciousness as a simple or comfortable thing whatsoever. 00:42:48.747 --> 00:42:53.007 And we could probably solve this by going, if you're trying to resolve all of this 00:42:53.007 --> 00:42:57.567 bundle of shit in and uh, into some kind of unified grand narrative of a person 00:42:57.567 --> 00:43:01.347 with this awesome destiny or whatever, then yeah, maybe you're referral. 00:43:01.347 --> 00:43:01.827 Oh my God. 00:43:01.827 --> 00:43:05.487 So I started, I, a friend of mine suggested I start doing morning pages. 00:43:05.852 --> 00:43:06.992 Yeah, you probably should. 00:43:07.142 --> 00:43:07.952 And I did it. 00:43:08.312 --> 00:43:10.682 And this shit that comes out is just nonsense. 00:43:10.737 --> 00:43:11.137 Terrible nonsense. 00:43:11.142 --> 00:43:11.672 Oh yeah. 00:43:12.512 --> 00:43:18.422 Like my head is like, I do 700 words of morning pages and I 00:43:18.422 --> 00:43:21.152 just think you shouldn't, you're not even fit to go outside. 00:43:21.752 --> 00:43:21.902 Yeah. 00:43:22.022 --> 00:43:25.352 Like you, like you can't string two Yeah. 00:43:25.442 --> 00:43:26.612 Logical thoughts together. 00:43:26.612 --> 00:43:28.202 Licensed to hang out with other humans. 00:43:28.202 --> 00:43:29.132 Just rescinded. 00:43:29.192 --> 00:43:29.612 Yeah. 00:43:29.672 --> 00:43:31.892 Well actually, but the truth is that's where we feel the sanity. 00:43:32.747 --> 00:43:33.737 Uh, and Simone to be Yeah. 00:43:33.737 --> 00:43:38.117 When I'm with you, I, I, I, I, I like, I feel like I'm making sense 00:43:38.117 --> 00:43:39.557 when I'm alone with my thoughts. 00:43:39.557 --> 00:43:39.707 Yeah. 00:43:39.707 --> 00:43:41.177 Riding in the first thing in the morning. 00:43:41.237 --> 00:43:41.537 Yeah. 00:43:41.927 --> 00:43:44.117 It's just fear, fear, fear. 00:43:44.117 --> 00:43:44.987 Looping. 00:43:45.017 --> 00:43:48.617 Just trying, just trying to be a glorious self-dependent island of Yeah. 00:43:49.127 --> 00:43:51.137 It's not selfness surrounded by nothing. 00:43:51.167 --> 00:43:52.397 It's like, you know, fuck that. 00:43:52.787 --> 00:43:56.327 And I'd rather just, I've gotta take myself to work just to find some 00:43:56.327 --> 00:43:58.367 sanity to be around some sane people. 00:43:58.907 --> 00:43:59.837 I know what you mean. 00:43:59.837 --> 00:43:59.897 Yeah. 00:44:00.047 --> 00:44:01.427 And, and every time, yeah. 00:44:01.427 --> 00:44:02.477 I'm losing my moorings. 00:44:02.477 --> 00:44:05.927 It's like, just do something for another human being right now. 00:44:05.987 --> 00:44:06.287 Yeah. 00:44:06.347 --> 00:44:09.167 You know, it's like, it, it satra would recognize the sort 00:44:09.167 --> 00:44:10.277 of things we're talking about. 00:44:10.277 --> 00:44:10.517 Right. 00:44:10.517 --> 00:44:13.577 And I'm gonna get into what the bug of a GI says about all these two in a minute. 00:44:13.847 --> 00:44:18.317 But I do want to hear the Scottish man out there is properly, no simplicity in 00:44:18.317 --> 00:44:21.977 it at one time, nor identity indifferent. 00:44:22.397 --> 00:44:24.827 Whatever natural prop prevention we may have. 00:44:25.652 --> 00:44:28.292 To imagine that simplicity and identity. 00:44:28.502 --> 00:44:32.582 So we have a natural propent to imagine a simplicity and identity. 00:44:32.582 --> 00:44:33.242 Mm-hmm. 00:44:33.248 --> 00:44:33.437 Yeah. 00:44:33.512 --> 00:44:34.652 So he is clearly calling it out. 00:44:34.922 --> 00:44:37.652 The comparison of the theater must not mislead us. 00:44:38.402 --> 00:44:43.172 They are the successive perceptions only that constitute the mind. 00:44:44.192 --> 00:44:46.562 'cause if you say theater, it makes it sound like a fixed 00:44:46.562 --> 00:44:47.582 place where things happen. 00:44:47.582 --> 00:44:47.792 Right. 00:44:47.792 --> 00:44:49.742 So he is like, useful analogy. 00:44:49.772 --> 00:44:50.702 Now let's drop it. 00:44:51.752 --> 00:44:52.892 They are the success. 00:44:53.402 --> 00:44:56.192 Successive perceptions only that constitute the mind. 00:44:56.432 --> 00:45:00.032 Nor have we the most distant notion of the place where these 00:45:00.032 --> 00:45:04.292 scenes are represented, or of the materials of which it is composed. 00:45:04.652 --> 00:45:08.942 I mean, I nor have we the most distant notion of the place where 00:45:08.942 --> 00:45:10.292 these scenes are represented. 00:45:10.502 --> 00:45:10.802 Yeah. 00:45:10.802 --> 00:45:12.397 You know, it's like, where is this happening? 00:45:12.987 --> 00:45:13.277 Yeah. 00:45:13.497 --> 00:45:15.812 Who is this happening to? 00:45:15.812 --> 00:45:15.902 Yes. 00:45:15.902 --> 00:45:16.502 It's all nonsense. 00:45:16.502 --> 00:45:16.802 Right. 00:45:17.252 --> 00:45:18.032 And then nonetheless. 00:45:19.367 --> 00:45:23.297 I seem to be in possession of an identity in terms of a sort of socially 00:45:23.297 --> 00:45:27.797 and politically constituted identity, uh, which my children recognize. 00:45:27.797 --> 00:45:32.957 And, uh, you know, my, if I just decide to just be a non-differentiated being merging 00:45:32.957 --> 00:45:38.572 with the one and, uh, fail to turn up for duty, uh, the department will not want 00:45:38.577 --> 00:45:40.577 to, you know, give me my survival tokens. 00:45:40.847 --> 00:45:42.647 So all of that remains true. 00:45:43.127 --> 00:45:43.397 Yeah. 00:45:43.577 --> 00:45:47.477 But all but all the best moments in my life have come from just letting go. 00:45:48.062 --> 00:45:48.902 Of all of that. 00:45:49.382 --> 00:45:49.712 Yeah. 00:45:49.802 --> 00:45:52.952 So I can definitely tell you that he's onto something, at least in the 00:45:52.952 --> 00:45:58.562 sense that this is really living, you know, when you get out of that, and 00:45:58.562 --> 00:45:59.822 there are a few ways to get there. 00:45:59.822 --> 00:46:04.142 Drugs, sex, especially if it's, you know, with someone you actually 00:46:05.222 --> 00:46:09.152 really respect and feel like, uh, you know, a deep connection too. 00:46:09.482 --> 00:46:12.512 But then eventually that, you know, 'cause that deep connection 00:46:12.512 --> 00:46:14.822 is defined in egotistical terms. 00:46:14.822 --> 00:46:15.122 Right. 00:46:15.122 --> 00:46:15.722 You're like. 00:46:16.307 --> 00:46:19.787 You know, I like this person because of I am the one judging. 00:46:19.787 --> 00:46:22.337 I'm the one rendering a verdict about this person. 00:46:22.487 --> 00:46:25.967 I find I find them pleasing, therefore they are a good person. 00:46:25.967 --> 00:46:26.117 Right? 00:46:26.117 --> 00:46:26.177 Yeah. 00:46:26.177 --> 00:46:29.177 And then there's like true love and actual merging. 00:46:29.627 --> 00:46:32.567 And then you can have these moments where you're like, but if I start 00:46:32.567 --> 00:46:36.767 to get mey with someone these days, it's clearly unhealthy and it causes. 00:46:37.367 --> 00:46:40.697 Uncomfortable feelings and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm just gonna like, 00:46:40.697 --> 00:46:45.107 throw out a speculation here that I think a lot of attachment, anxiety 00:46:45.137 --> 00:46:50.057 and, uh, you know, avoidant an, uh, avoidant attachment arises from. 00:46:50.447 --> 00:46:55.127 Trying to create a stable sense of the self and the other, and trying to 00:46:55.127 --> 00:46:56.807 constitute the self through the other. 00:46:56.987 --> 00:47:01.547 And this is, of course, a fool's errand and extremely painful mentally 00:47:01.547 --> 00:47:02.987 and physically and emotionally. 00:47:02.987 --> 00:47:04.007 And I don't recommend it. 00:47:04.037 --> 00:47:06.707 However, I've extensive experience with trying to do this. 00:47:06.936 --> 00:47:11.136 so I can report but see without, without a fixed separate Joe. 00:47:11.376 --> 00:47:13.266 Yeah, I'm perfectly free to. 00:47:14.166 --> 00:47:15.336 Move around the world. 00:47:16.206 --> 00:47:17.946 Do with what I need to do. 00:47:18.036 --> 00:47:18.216 Mm-hmm. 00:47:18.516 --> 00:47:20.586 Respond to what I need to respond to. 00:47:20.646 --> 00:47:20.886 Yeah. 00:47:20.946 --> 00:47:22.866 Show up at work, raise my kids. 00:47:23.076 --> 00:47:23.196 Yeah. 00:47:23.346 --> 00:47:27.786 I don't need a separate entity called Joe over here. 00:47:27.876 --> 00:47:29.316 Separate from the universe. 00:47:29.346 --> 00:47:29.436 Mm-hmm. 00:47:29.676 --> 00:47:30.606 In some way. 00:47:30.756 --> 00:47:35.256 And in some way it's, I don't need to be solid, I just actually need to flow. 00:47:35.256 --> 00:47:36.546 There's a good friend of mine, Louis. 00:47:36.546 --> 00:47:36.821 Yeah, that's true. 00:47:37.371 --> 00:47:39.291 Who just says Just flow deep. 00:47:39.651 --> 00:47:40.851 Mm, just flow. 00:47:41.001 --> 00:47:41.301 Mm. 00:47:41.691 --> 00:47:43.341 Like it sounds a bit hippie, right? 00:47:43.371 --> 00:47:47.181 It sounds a bit like you're gonna get the Diablo out and 00:47:47.271 --> 00:47:48.531 Edburg Gardens or something. 00:47:49.191 --> 00:47:49.821 But Yeah. 00:47:50.656 --> 00:47:50.946 Yeah. 00:47:51.951 --> 00:47:54.621 But it's actually a profound truth. 00:47:54.621 --> 00:47:55.266 Head of the garden. 00:47:55.701 --> 00:47:55.941 Yeah. 00:47:55.941 --> 00:47:56.301 Sorry. 00:47:56.301 --> 00:47:57.351 It's a profound truth. 00:47:57.351 --> 00:47:57.741 Yeah. 00:47:57.951 --> 00:48:01.791 Um, that we've just gotta, that we, it's not that we've got a 00:48:01.791 --> 00:48:03.591 flow, it's just that we are a flow. 00:48:03.591 --> 00:48:04.731 That's what David Hume's saying. 00:48:04.731 --> 00:48:06.051 We're just a flow of perceptions. 00:48:06.111 --> 00:48:06.681 Yeah, that's right. 00:48:06.681 --> 00:48:12.351 And the second you, so all you really have to do is just try to 00:48:12.351 --> 00:48:14.151 hold it the right way kind of thing. 00:48:14.151 --> 00:48:16.851 It's like don't grip it too tight, not too loose. 00:48:17.376 --> 00:48:21.726 You know, don't white knuckle, but also value things that are valuable. 00:48:21.726 --> 00:48:23.671 But yeah, hold things, hold them lightly loosely. 00:48:23.671 --> 00:48:24.846 Hold them loosely in your hand. 00:48:24.846 --> 00:48:25.626 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:48:25.626 --> 00:48:32.436 And, and then if you are fortunate enough to really like somebody and 00:48:32.436 --> 00:48:36.396 you're in the same room and it's, you know, it's getting real that you. 00:48:37.341 --> 00:48:39.861 May still have a script running in your head. 00:48:39.861 --> 00:48:41.061 And perceptions, perceptions. 00:48:41.061 --> 00:48:46.011 Perceptions and like, oh, ideas about what this is and who I am and why I, 00:48:46.011 --> 00:48:47.001 you know, this, that, and the other. 00:48:47.001 --> 00:48:47.271 Right. 00:48:47.421 --> 00:48:52.074 And it's like if you can get past all that to like, you, you know, getting 00:48:52.074 --> 00:48:53.334 past the gender scripts as well. 00:48:53.334 --> 00:48:55.014 It's like, I am a man. 00:48:55.194 --> 00:48:57.324 This is a woman, you know, it's like, no, no, no. 00:48:57.324 --> 00:48:58.254 Where you want to get at. 00:48:59.004 --> 00:49:03.054 There's a level below that, which is, ah, there's a couple of animals here. 00:49:03.144 --> 00:49:03.504 Right. 00:49:03.819 --> 00:49:05.679 That undifferentiated sort of animals. 00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:07.809 And then there's like, oh, no know. 00:49:08.139 --> 00:49:09.969 It's even more basic than that. 00:49:09.969 --> 00:49:12.879 It's like two, two. 00:49:13.089 --> 00:49:15.399 Have you ever tried Tantra consciousness? 00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:15.819 Yeah. 00:49:15.819 --> 00:49:19.539 Uh, no, but I think I kind of get what it's, I've done it. 00:49:19.629 --> 00:49:20.469 I get what it's at. 00:49:20.529 --> 00:49:23.739 I saw someone turn into like an old woman before my eyes. 00:49:23.769 --> 00:49:24.819 Whoa. 00:49:24.849 --> 00:49:25.929 Without any drugs. 00:49:25.929 --> 00:49:26.859 I wasn't expecting that. 00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:27.699 Yeah. 00:49:27.849 --> 00:49:28.329 Wait a minute. 00:49:28.329 --> 00:49:29.199 That was a trip, man. 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:31.749 Is that something that, is that a known. 00:49:32.589 --> 00:49:33.009 Ding. 00:49:33.339 --> 00:49:33.489 Yeah. 00:49:33.489 --> 00:49:35.859 I think it's when you're getting back to your cities, isn't it? 00:49:36.699 --> 00:49:36.969 Hmm. 00:49:37.329 --> 00:49:42.579 It was a full blown hallucination with no drugs, and the sex that happened was sort 00:49:42.579 --> 00:49:47.559 of secondary to this meditation process of tantrum of eye, tantric eye gazing. 00:49:48.999 --> 00:49:49.419 Oh no. 00:49:49.424 --> 00:49:52.179 That, that, that, and people just know, oh, the sex lasts a long time. 00:49:52.179 --> 00:49:54.759 But it's sort of like the sex becomes, it's what you were just talking about. 00:49:54.759 --> 00:49:58.029 It's this oneness and then the sex becomes this secondary thing. 00:49:58.029 --> 00:49:58.869 That Correct. 00:49:58.929 --> 00:50:00.229 That happens, but yeah. 00:50:00.429 --> 00:50:00.609 Yeah. 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:03.579 You realize it doesn't mean that much, or it doesn't matter that much 00:50:03.579 --> 00:50:06.699 compared to what you just experienced by gazing into someone's eyes. 00:50:06.759 --> 00:50:07.059 Correct. 00:50:07.089 --> 00:50:08.619 It's not the thing to hold onto. 00:50:08.769 --> 00:50:09.339 Oh my God. 00:50:09.399 --> 00:50:09.759 Yeah. 00:50:09.849 --> 00:50:13.269 I started with a new therapist last night, Sam, big News, and a couple 00:50:13.269 --> 00:50:18.189 of times she did this eye staring uncomfortable eye lock thing. 00:50:19.404 --> 00:50:21.114 It was deeply disturbing. 00:50:21.114 --> 00:50:22.344 You really don't need drugs, do you? 00:50:22.374 --> 00:50:25.374 And that's where the self seems to be the most solid. 00:50:25.584 --> 00:50:28.764 When like a psychol clinical psychologist is staring into 00:50:28.764 --> 00:50:30.294 your eyes and they lock onto you. 00:50:30.319 --> 00:50:30.539 Ooh. 00:50:30.714 --> 00:50:33.504 And you try and hold it instead of looking the natural. 00:50:33.804 --> 00:50:34.014 Yeah. 00:50:34.044 --> 00:50:36.114 The self then seems very solid. 00:50:36.114 --> 00:50:40.854 It's like, oh no, it's this solid object as being perceived by an expert, you know? 00:50:40.944 --> 00:50:43.614 But it's, it's still an illusion, I must say. 00:50:44.019 --> 00:50:45.849 I, no, no, I don't find that crazy. 00:50:45.849 --> 00:50:48.459 The idea that it starts feeling more solid, I just tend to 00:50:48.459 --> 00:50:49.509 experience the opposite. 00:50:49.659 --> 00:50:50.139 Oh, right. 00:50:50.229 --> 00:50:50.769 Yeah. 00:50:50.889 --> 00:50:53.739 And that like, I mean, it ma I think both makes sense. 00:50:54.009 --> 00:50:56.529 Here's the thing, like the, the thing this, the thing that's been 00:50:56.529 --> 00:50:59.559 lurking in the background of this whole conversation is the Dao. 00:51:00.309 --> 00:51:00.789 Ooh. 00:51:00.789 --> 00:51:02.379 Because I think that's really what M's. 00:51:02.379 --> 00:51:03.399 Talking about here. 00:51:03.459 --> 00:51:07.299 If you want my opinion, like he talks about you would perceive these opposites 00:51:07.659 --> 00:51:10.269 and the, you know, we're kind of like. 00:51:11.484 --> 00:51:14.364 I'm trying to sort of hold onto notions of like the separateness 00:51:14.364 --> 00:51:17.304 and discreetness of, you know, two properties, hot and cold, et cetera. 00:51:17.304 --> 00:51:20.574 But at what exact point does hot begin and what exact point does cold begin? 00:51:20.664 --> 00:51:20.904 You know? 00:51:20.904 --> 00:51:21.444 Exactly. 00:51:21.774 --> 00:51:24.204 Everyone can say, well, I feel cold right now. 00:51:24.204 --> 00:51:27.714 Well, yeah, okay, so there's an organism reacting to particular conditions, 00:51:27.714 --> 00:51:30.954 but some other, an other animal might like it that temperature, you know? 00:51:30.954 --> 00:51:31.224 Yeah. 00:51:31.434 --> 00:51:31.804 So, but. 00:51:32.279 --> 00:51:35.399 So I'm not trying to relativize everything out of complete existence. 00:51:35.399 --> 00:51:36.389 That's not what we're doing here. 00:51:36.389 --> 00:51:39.539 Like, no, there is some sort of reality to things I'm not claiming otherwise. 00:51:39.710 --> 00:51:43.880 but it seems to entail a lot of illusions in the experiencing of it. 00:51:43.970 --> 00:51:44.000 Mm. 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:49.730 And, and those illusions will get in the way of actually just having a good time. 00:51:50.420 --> 00:51:53.060 And we've, we, we can all relate to getting in our heads. 00:51:53.795 --> 00:51:55.805 When everything was fun and suddenly we're in our heads. 00:51:55.805 --> 00:51:59.765 Right, and it's, you lost the game and you know, 'cause you forgot for a minute. 00:51:59.795 --> 00:52:01.265 Well, that can happen during sex. 00:52:01.295 --> 00:52:02.915 It, uh mm-hmm. 00:52:03.155 --> 00:52:03.815 A hundred percent. 00:52:04.115 --> 00:52:08.795 That's like, even though there's literally no other audience, but this person who 00:52:08.795 --> 00:52:11.675 you are already in a state of trust with, nonetheless, it can be devastating. 00:52:12.065 --> 00:52:12.305 Yeah. 00:52:12.335 --> 00:52:13.835 Let alone you're in a social situation. 00:52:13.835 --> 00:52:14.585 Everyone's riffing. 00:52:14.885 --> 00:52:15.875 Oh, we're all having fun. 00:52:15.875 --> 00:52:17.255 We we're rinsing each other. 00:52:17.255 --> 00:52:17.855 This is great. 00:52:17.885 --> 00:52:18.155 Oops. 00:52:18.155 --> 00:52:18.935 I went too far. 00:52:18.995 --> 00:52:19.325 Yeah. 00:52:19.415 --> 00:52:21.155 Uh, you know, or. 00:52:21.560 --> 00:52:24.170 Oh God, I'm playing the absolute gig of my life. 00:52:24.230 --> 00:52:27.440 These songs are all landing dong cl. 00:52:28.040 --> 00:52:28.370 Yeah. 00:52:29.240 --> 00:52:30.320 You got in your head. 00:52:30.380 --> 00:52:33.230 And then, you know, like, it's like, it's like your friends in 00:52:33.230 --> 00:52:34.760 LA used to say, you lost the game. 00:52:34.850 --> 00:52:37.190 Lost the game, and it was just a thing. 00:52:37.190 --> 00:52:40.730 Okay, so shout out to, uh, Shiner, Sam Bird. 00:52:41.090 --> 00:52:44.540 Uh, just you've explained this once before in the show. 00:52:44.570 --> 00:52:45.620 I have, yeah. 00:52:45.650 --> 00:52:46.405 Oh, thank you for reminding me. 00:52:46.405 --> 00:52:47.540 How do you think I know about it? 00:52:48.620 --> 00:52:48.830 Well. 00:52:49.670 --> 00:52:52.370 You can explain it again, and then I think we need to wrap it up, Sam. 00:52:52.490 --> 00:52:56.900 Uh, well, yeah, I mean, look, just very briefly, it's just a little mental 00:52:56.900 --> 00:53:00.890 challenge you can do, and this really lines up with a whole lot of advice you'll 00:53:00.890 --> 00:53:05.150 get about learning, learning, emotional regulation, resilience and stuff. 00:53:05.570 --> 00:53:09.920 It's, it's just like, basically, like if you're plagued by, oh, 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.080 I'll explain what it is first. 00:53:12.830 --> 00:53:15.320 So the challenge is. 00:53:16.310 --> 00:53:21.170 Try not to think about the game, which is just sort of a 00:53:21.170 --> 00:53:23.030 notion that it's not important. 00:53:23.030 --> 00:53:24.800 You could call it anything, right? 00:53:25.068 --> 00:53:26.268 but, oh, I thought about the game. 00:53:27.258 --> 00:53:28.098 I Loh, I lost the game. 00:53:28.668 --> 00:53:33.018 And then when you lose the game, it's an, you are bound by the rules of honor to. 00:53:33.528 --> 00:53:36.888 Let everyone else know that you fucked up and you lost the game. 00:53:37.188 --> 00:53:40.338 But the great thing about it is losing the game is not a big deal because 00:53:40.338 --> 00:53:41.958 momentarily you'll be back in it. 00:53:42.378 --> 00:53:44.208 Uh, and it's all just happening again. 00:53:44.808 --> 00:53:49.248 And it's a, it's a, it's, it was a fun riff and it went on. 00:53:49.368 --> 00:53:50.118 It was a good thing. 00:53:50.538 --> 00:53:53.748 But I did think about it over the years and go, no, there's something here. 00:53:54.228 --> 00:53:58.143 And it's the same trick as when you capture, When you first gain a 00:53:58.143 --> 00:54:01.953 self-awareness, like in a process of recovering from like a acute mental 00:54:01.953 --> 00:54:05.343 illness or a chronic mental illness, and you start one day, you just gain 00:54:05.343 --> 00:54:07.173 this level of distance from a thought. 00:54:07.533 --> 00:54:07.743 Mm-hmm. 00:54:07.803 --> 00:54:09.873 And you're like, oh yeah, what is that? 00:54:09.873 --> 00:54:10.113 Anyway. 00:54:11.043 --> 00:54:11.403 Mm. 00:54:11.613 --> 00:54:11.853 Yeah. 00:54:11.853 --> 00:54:13.833 I'm able to do that pretty consistently now. 00:54:13.893 --> 00:54:16.053 Well, I mean that's what meditation's kind of Yeah. 00:54:16.083 --> 00:54:16.833 All about really. 00:54:16.833 --> 00:54:19.773 But like you and therapy will help you do this too. 00:54:19.773 --> 00:54:22.023 Sort of gain a kind of level of objectivity about your 00:54:22.023 --> 00:54:24.903 thoughts and just go, yeah, that might be some insane nonsense. 00:54:24.903 --> 00:54:27.633 And the next time that arises, I might just, uh, I might just 00:54:27.633 --> 00:54:29.193 observe it and let it pass. 00:54:29.563 --> 00:54:32.413 And it's like, do a little mental, yeah, little mental push up. 00:54:32.413 --> 00:54:33.943 I'm gonna have to do more of that Sam too. 00:54:33.973 --> 00:54:37.813 'cause the other thing I found out last night is that I've got OCDI 00:54:37.813 --> 00:54:41.233 was gonna say congrats on the new therapist and the new diagnosis. 00:54:41.263 --> 00:54:41.923 Wow. 00:54:41.983 --> 00:54:44.383 Well, she said, look, we, I'm a clinical psychologist. 00:54:44.383 --> 00:54:46.693 We could do a formal, it's like you've had a baby or something. 00:54:46.693 --> 00:54:50.653 We could do a formal like diagnosis of OCD, but Yeah, no, that makes, 00:54:50.653 --> 00:54:52.303 let's just get on with fixing you up. 00:54:52.603 --> 00:54:53.293 It makes sense. 00:54:53.413 --> 00:54:54.253 Um, yeah. 00:54:54.313 --> 00:54:55.243 So I've, yeah. 00:54:55.243 --> 00:54:59.023 I'm not just bipolar type one, which is a fucking serious mental illness. 00:54:59.023 --> 00:54:59.533 It sure is. 00:54:59.913 --> 00:55:04.923 I've also got OCD and I think it's been ruining my entire life. 00:55:04.953 --> 00:55:06.213 Well, I'm just gonna say I've never felt prouder. 00:55:08.223 --> 00:55:09.543 You finally have two acronyms. 00:55:09.543 --> 00:55:12.423 I said to her, there's a lot of ego in a diagnosis. 00:55:12.423 --> 00:55:14.253 And she looked at me like, what are you talking about? 00:55:14.253 --> 00:55:15.423 You, you're right about that. 00:55:15.513 --> 00:55:18.603 You're like, well, if you go on a podcast and talk about it, there's ego in it. 00:55:19.803 --> 00:55:20.943 Yeah, we, we lost the game. 00:55:20.943 --> 00:55:21.303 All right. 00:55:21.663 --> 00:55:22.043 I lost the game. 00:55:22.043 --> 00:55:24.033 We broke the first rule of fight club. 00:55:25.798 --> 00:55:27.063 Um, yeah. 00:55:27.063 --> 00:55:31.293 Anyway, uh, I think O CD's been kicking my ass, particularly 00:55:31.293 --> 00:55:32.883 in the area of relationships. 00:55:33.093 --> 00:55:36.393 I think she's, I think this, uh, this lady's onto something. 00:55:36.544 --> 00:55:38.734 because you do cast hat, you blah, blah, blah. 00:55:38.794 --> 00:55:40.144 You do catastrophize a lot. 00:55:40.624 --> 00:55:42.124 And I will just humble brag. 00:55:42.124 --> 00:55:45.304 I did two days of youth mental health first day training at the end of last 00:55:45.304 --> 00:55:48.304 year when I was in a state of advanced exhaustion, and I just sat in a room 00:55:48.304 --> 00:55:50.224 with people and just cried openly. 00:55:50.614 --> 00:55:52.384 I highly recommend it. 00:55:52.684 --> 00:55:54.004 I wasn't blubbering the whole time. 00:55:54.034 --> 00:55:55.504 I also did a lot of coloring in. 00:55:55.564 --> 00:55:57.244 Well, you cried at the start of this episode. 00:55:57.244 --> 00:55:57.724 I did. 00:55:58.114 --> 00:55:59.194 Which I appreciated. 00:55:59.764 --> 00:56:01.414 Tell me, did it make you think about your mother? 00:56:01.834 --> 00:56:02.584 Oh yeah, of course. 00:56:02.584 --> 00:56:03.694 Is that why you were crying, Sam? 00:56:03.694 --> 00:56:04.504 Yeah, of course. 00:56:04.564 --> 00:56:06.904 And well, great that you can access it, Sam. 00:56:06.994 --> 00:56:08.464 Oh, you don't have to teach me that. 00:56:08.824 --> 00:56:10.264 It's closer than it's ever been. 00:56:10.264 --> 00:56:15.484 Like, uh, when I, for a long time I've been holding on tightly and keeping it 00:56:15.484 --> 00:56:21.364 all going and dutiful and unfun, Sammy, and I'm like, I'm into being dutiful. 00:56:21.364 --> 00:56:22.924 Like duties are duties, man. 00:56:22.924 --> 00:56:23.914 Live up to them, right? 00:56:23.974 --> 00:56:24.304 Yeah. 00:56:24.334 --> 00:56:27.514 But I carried them so heavily and. 00:56:28.069 --> 00:56:30.289 Yeah, you're a bit of a square peg in a round hole. 00:56:30.289 --> 00:56:30.859 I sure was. 00:56:30.859 --> 00:56:31.819 And just taking 00:56:33.859 --> 00:56:36.709 parenting so seriously, honestly felt quite awkward. 00:56:36.709 --> 00:56:37.789 I didn't wanna say anything. 00:56:37.789 --> 00:56:40.609 But you were taking it pretty seriously and just, I don't know, 00:56:40.609 --> 00:56:42.109 it was just white knuckling a lot. 00:56:42.169 --> 00:56:46.699 I mean, my level of catastrophizing was severe enough to cause me 00:56:46.699 --> 00:56:48.289 issues, but like not on your level. 00:56:48.319 --> 00:56:49.239 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:56:49.279 --> 00:56:52.309 Like so I really, you still think there will be a world. 00:56:53.179 --> 00:56:53.389 Yes. 00:56:53.389 --> 00:56:54.139 At the end of it. 00:56:54.229 --> 00:56:55.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:55.759 Exactly. 00:56:56.179 --> 00:56:58.609 Oh, my child may suddenly die. 00:56:58.729 --> 00:56:58.939 Yeah. 00:56:58.969 --> 00:57:00.289 But the world will continue. 00:57:00.319 --> 00:57:00.889 Yes. 00:57:01.069 --> 00:57:04.939 Whereas you find much more comfort in the opposite thought. 00:57:04.939 --> 00:57:06.349 I don't find any comfort in that thought. 00:57:06.529 --> 00:57:09.259 But you, where you go is, my child may die anyway. 00:57:09.259 --> 00:57:10.159 What's happening in Russia? 00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:11.359 Putin might drop the bomb. 00:57:11.389 --> 00:57:11.629 Yeah. 00:57:12.334 --> 00:57:13.294 We're all gonna die. 00:57:13.384 --> 00:57:13.744 Yeah. 00:57:13.924 --> 00:57:14.944 So don't even worry about it. 00:57:14.944 --> 00:57:15.274 Right. 00:57:15.664 --> 00:57:16.114 You know? 00:57:16.144 --> 00:57:16.654 Yeah. 00:57:16.684 --> 00:57:18.664 But it doesn't sit like that with you, does it? 00:57:19.689 --> 00:57:23.824 I, I said to my spiritual advisor something about, what 00:57:23.824 --> 00:57:25.414 if we all die in a nuclear war? 00:57:25.834 --> 00:57:27.214 And he said, we're all gonna Great question. 00:57:27.244 --> 00:57:28.624 We're all gonna die anyway. 00:57:29.074 --> 00:57:29.494 Correct. 00:57:29.494 --> 00:57:33.394 And then I said, the tragedy with fear has already occurred, but I was hoping that 00:57:33.394 --> 00:57:35.794 my kids would live long and happy lives. 00:57:36.044 --> 00:57:37.124 Well, yeah. 00:57:37.694 --> 00:57:39.404 And he didn't have much to say to that. 00:57:40.094 --> 00:57:41.444 It's a hard one to come back on. 00:57:41.894 --> 00:57:42.284 Yeah. 00:57:42.404 --> 00:57:47.324 So I think I've managed to find a way to keep worrying, even if I can accept my own 00:57:47.324 --> 00:57:49.004 mortality, I can't accept my children's. 00:57:49.394 --> 00:57:50.534 Oh, well, well, I mean, come on, come on, come on. 00:57:50.684 --> 00:57:51.194 Wait a minute. 00:57:52.424 --> 00:57:56.504 The, the, the, um, the end of all therapy is. 00:57:57.364 --> 00:58:00.064 The acceptance of ordinary human unhappiness. 00:58:00.154 --> 00:58:02.674 Well, I did five years with the previous person and I think 00:58:02.674 --> 00:58:04.024 I'm a lot better than I was. 00:58:04.084 --> 00:58:04.444 Yeah. 00:58:04.504 --> 00:58:05.194 Believe it or not. 00:58:05.194 --> 00:58:05.974 I think so. 00:58:06.184 --> 00:58:09.814 And whether Peter gets the credit or not, I mean, it's impossible to say. 00:58:10.084 --> 00:58:13.474 Yeah, I don't wanna disturb Peter 'cause she still hasn't sent me the last invoice. 00:58:14.194 --> 00:58:17.644 So if I just, if I just ghost her, I could save 180 bucks. 00:58:17.674 --> 00:58:18.934 Well, does she ever listen to this? 00:58:18.964 --> 00:58:19.564 Surely not. 00:58:19.774 --> 00:58:24.604 She would rather stick pins in her eyes and listen to me talk on a podcast. 00:58:24.604 --> 00:58:24.874 I reckon. 00:58:24.874 --> 00:58:28.444 Sounds like a smart woman, I reckon, who, how do I know? 00:58:28.444 --> 00:58:29.944 I have no idea what she thinks of me. 00:58:30.184 --> 00:58:31.894 Do you know what your therapist thinks of you? 00:58:32.854 --> 00:58:34.594 Your therapist might despise you. 00:58:35.044 --> 00:58:36.634 I, I do sometimes think. 00:58:37.024 --> 00:58:42.214 Adam is just like this guy, how did I get saddled with this guy? 00:58:42.634 --> 00:58:46.774 Like he saw me when he was still at the Melbourne Uni counseling service, which is 00:58:46.774 --> 00:58:50.434 like probably not a bad gig for like Yeah. 00:58:50.434 --> 00:58:51.844 A newish psychologist. 00:58:51.844 --> 00:58:53.824 And he was like, better than the average Yeah. 00:58:53.824 --> 00:58:54.544 Person there. 00:58:55.054 --> 00:58:58.986 And he got, he got, he got through to me, You know, and then he made the mistake 00:58:58.986 --> 00:59:04.776 of reaching out by email and saying, I think you need an ongoing therapist. 00:59:05.136 --> 00:59:06.366 I'm in private practice. 00:59:06.456 --> 00:59:07.626 Come over to Williamstown. 00:59:08.736 --> 00:59:11.736 So I did that and uh, he did eventually move closer. 00:59:11.891 --> 00:59:12.111 He. 00:59:12.726 --> 00:59:15.426 Now he was helping himself out. 00:59:15.426 --> 00:59:16.446 He was helping me out. 00:59:16.596 --> 00:59:18.336 I've got no argument with that move. 00:59:18.336 --> 00:59:19.446 I think it was the right move. 00:59:19.716 --> 00:59:22.326 But fast forward 13 years and he's like, oh my God, are we 00:59:22.326 --> 00:59:23.556 ever gonna land this plane? 00:59:24.786 --> 00:59:25.236 You know? 00:59:25.326 --> 00:59:29.466 So I sometimes regard myself with a level of 13 years. 00:59:29.781 --> 00:59:32.601 Pride and amusement as like the single greatest failure and 00:59:32.601 --> 00:59:34.041 success of his entire career. 00:59:34.191 --> 00:59:34.521 Yeah. 00:59:34.521 --> 00:59:36.651 And I take, I do take pride in that. 00:59:36.981 --> 00:59:39.741 Well, I struggled to move on from Peter and I Yes. 00:59:39.771 --> 00:59:44.121 Five years sat in that session talking a lot about Peter and she said, well, it 00:59:44.121 --> 00:59:48.981 sounds like you're a bit undecided if you wanna move on from psychoanalysis to CBT. 00:59:49.611 --> 00:59:53.451 And then she sold herself to me, which, um, Peter would never do 00:59:53.481 --> 00:59:54.471 'cause she couldn't give a fuck. 00:59:54.958 --> 00:59:58.618 and it was off, it was a bit offputting, but I, I want the help. 00:59:58.618 --> 00:59:59.038 Right. 00:59:59.098 --> 01:00:01.678 I, the help I, well, I think it was, she was making all the right moves. 01:00:02.278 --> 01:00:02.788 Yes. 01:00:02.788 --> 01:00:05.743 I think she kind of knew what the situation required, wasn't as 01:00:06.023 --> 01:00:07.943 charismatic and intense as Peter. 01:00:08.248 --> 01:00:09.568 Well, you know what, you're, she's a bit dagger. 01:00:09.838 --> 01:00:11.128 You're not gonna try and impress her. 01:00:11.848 --> 01:00:12.028 No. 01:00:12.028 --> 01:00:13.348 There's nothing to impress her. 01:00:13.828 --> 01:00:14.128 Yeah. 01:00:14.338 --> 01:00:14.698 Yeah. 01:00:14.788 --> 01:00:15.718 I think this could be good for you. 01:00:15.718 --> 01:00:18.418 I think she's like a nerd about psychology techniques. 01:00:18.538 --> 01:00:19.018 I, yeah. 01:00:19.138 --> 01:00:20.968 She's gonna, she's gonna go by the book. 01:00:21.118 --> 01:00:21.628 By the book. 01:00:21.628 --> 01:00:21.748 Yeah. 01:00:21.748 --> 01:00:23.248 She's not gonna be this impenetrable. 01:00:23.248 --> 01:00:24.298 Yung Ingen. 01:00:24.298 --> 01:00:24.568 Yeah. 01:00:24.628 --> 01:00:25.913 Uh, le, sorry. 01:00:25.913 --> 01:00:26.998 Le Ingen. 01:00:27.028 --> 01:00:27.388 Yeah. 01:00:27.478 --> 01:00:31.168 Uh, and look ho Shade on Lekan. 01:00:31.168 --> 01:00:33.088 They are often very, very sharp people. 01:00:33.718 --> 01:00:35.548 But this might be more, the ticket. 01:00:35.878 --> 01:00:37.228 Could be, I'm gonna try it, Sam. 01:00:37.228 --> 01:00:40.258 I'm gonna try three sessions and see how I go and look more importantly. 01:00:41.008 --> 01:00:47.403 You don't have some sort of mystical quest to like, you know, you know, look. 01:00:48.388 --> 01:00:51.988 You've had those moments where you're like, maybe I can do some gear here. 01:00:52.048 --> 01:00:54.178 Maybe I can get a laugh from Peter. 01:00:54.238 --> 01:00:54.788 Yeah, yeah. 01:00:55.438 --> 01:00:56.758 Just even to impress her. 01:00:56.758 --> 01:00:57.838 'cause she's so smart. 01:00:57.958 --> 01:00:58.318 Yeah. 01:00:58.318 --> 01:01:00.328 You just, you just want that approval so bad. 01:01:00.358 --> 01:01:00.538 Yeah. 01:01:00.538 --> 01:01:01.498 Get a little laugh. 01:01:01.528 --> 01:01:01.918 Yeah. 01:01:01.948 --> 01:01:02.278 Yeah. 01:01:02.278 --> 01:01:05.008 And so when you, when you said, this person stares in, you get a little 01:01:05.008 --> 01:01:08.698 laugh, you know, so she stares in the new one, stares into my eyes 01:01:08.728 --> 01:01:10.408 and I become deeply unsettled. 01:01:10.768 --> 01:01:10.948 Yeah. 01:01:10.948 --> 01:01:14.668 And have a strong feeling of a rock solid self that's completely 01:01:14.668 --> 01:01:16.468 pinned down now by this woman. 01:01:16.948 --> 01:01:17.128 Yep. 01:01:17.158 --> 01:01:20.518 And you have the experience of disintegrating under the gaze of 01:01:20.518 --> 01:01:28.918 your therapist when Adam stares back implacably without malice or you 01:01:28.918 --> 01:01:30.418 know, anything kind of negative. 01:01:30.448 --> 01:01:34.888 It's just a neutral regard, but it's unwavering. 01:01:35.998 --> 01:01:37.048 It's quite zen. 01:01:37.648 --> 01:01:38.428 He's good at it. 01:01:39.478 --> 01:01:40.108 And. 01:01:40.993 --> 01:01:44.893 I don't find myself strongly holding the self together. 01:01:45.073 --> 01:01:48.193 I feel it falling apart and I feel all my nonsense and 01:01:48.193 --> 01:01:49.993 bullshit has just been laid bare. 01:01:50.233 --> 01:01:52.963 It's very powerful technique, but I put it to you. 01:01:52.963 --> 01:01:53.953 This is a Dao thing. 01:01:54.853 --> 01:02:03.193 The same, uncomfortable, powerful forces at work, and you deal with it by holding, 01:02:04.033 --> 01:02:06.853 and then somehow I just fold more easily. 01:02:07.213 --> 01:02:08.593 And I don't know if that's. 01:02:08.998 --> 01:02:10.378 A good or a bad thing, honestly. 01:02:10.447 --> 01:02:16.237 But I do speculate that maybe you are deeper into this realization about the 01:02:16.237 --> 01:02:17.407 illusion of the separate self and yet. 01:02:18.742 --> 01:02:21.112 Also holding on tightly more. 01:02:21.292 --> 01:02:23.452 I'm holding on tightly too, but I think you might be 01:02:23.452 --> 01:02:24.652 gripping it just that bit more. 01:02:24.682 --> 01:02:25.042 Yeah. 01:02:25.372 --> 01:02:28.102 I do wonder if it's just a head game for me at this stage, and 01:02:28.102 --> 01:02:31.222 it's never gone fully experiential. 01:02:31.522 --> 01:02:32.902 How deep does it go? 01:02:33.292 --> 01:02:35.782 I mean, I wonder how many people listening are just like, what 01:02:35.782 --> 01:02:37.012 the fuck are you talking about? 01:02:37.042 --> 01:02:37.907 Okay, what we talking about? 01:02:38.527 --> 01:02:44.947 Is experiencing being who we are as not fun and fucked and trying to constantly 01:02:44.947 --> 01:02:49.237 fix it and trying to like come up with the remedy for like, okay, I'll be all 01:02:49.237 --> 01:02:50.947 cool if this, I'll be all cool if that. 01:02:51.547 --> 01:02:54.637 And maybe the solution's much simpler than that. 01:02:54.817 --> 01:02:59.167 You just, you know, stop trying to run the show. 01:02:59.167 --> 01:03:00.772 You just let go and let go. 01:03:03.337 --> 01:03:03.727 You know? 01:03:04.357 --> 01:03:05.647 Just be a theater goer. 01:03:06.022 --> 01:03:06.412 You know? 01:03:06.862 --> 01:03:07.252 Yeah. 01:03:07.462 --> 01:03:08.812 Just let the show happen. 01:03:08.812 --> 01:03:10.582 Get in the backseat of the car and yeah. 01:03:10.702 --> 01:03:12.412 Wind the window down and Yeah. 01:03:12.742 --> 01:03:13.942 Doesn't mean we just be a passenger. 01:03:13.972 --> 01:03:14.332 That's right. 01:03:14.332 --> 01:03:17.932 It doesn't mean we renounce all agency, but I think it's about identifying Well, 01:03:17.932 --> 01:03:20.152 we don't renounce social responsibility. 01:03:20.182 --> 01:03:20.242 No. 01:03:20.242 --> 01:03:23.032 So we, neither of us could ever conceive of, no. 01:03:23.032 --> 01:03:26.362 Not being responsible for our children or just telling our kids, Hey man, 01:03:26.362 --> 01:03:27.952 I'm just a bundle of molecules. 01:03:28.072 --> 01:03:28.822 So are you. 01:03:28.822 --> 01:03:29.782 It's all good. 01:03:30.352 --> 01:03:31.432 Hope it all works out. 01:03:31.642 --> 01:03:32.122 Yeah. 01:03:32.182 --> 01:03:33.232 We are never gonna do that. 01:03:33.262 --> 01:03:37.612 No, and it's not, this is not about denying responsibility or 01:03:37.612 --> 01:03:40.882 like trying to escape the problems through a clever philosophical trick. 01:03:41.212 --> 01:03:43.492 I think we both have had the same realization. 01:03:43.522 --> 01:03:46.252 I just want to know what's true before I die, Sam. 01:03:46.342 --> 01:03:46.762 Yeah. 01:03:46.822 --> 01:03:48.382 And what's true is that I don't exist. 01:03:48.557 --> 01:03:51.377 Man, God already told you in the way that I thought, God already told you. 01:03:51.377 --> 01:03:52.037 It doesn't matter. 01:03:52.097 --> 01:03:53.027 It's all okay. 01:03:53.087 --> 01:03:54.107 Yeah, yeah. 01:03:54.197 --> 01:03:57.407 You just, you just wanna know that it all makes sense and it wasn't 01:03:57.407 --> 01:04:04.217 all a big joke and, and, you know, and Marxism couldn't persuade you. 01:04:04.427 --> 01:04:07.067 It's, you know, you, you looked for other things. 01:04:07.067 --> 01:04:08.357 Acid was the answer for a bit. 01:04:08.777 --> 01:04:14.687 But, you know, what I wanted to say is, you know, thank you to those 01:04:14.687 --> 01:04:18.287 people that have like, you know, held the unwavering gaze and just. 01:04:18.502 --> 01:04:18.562 Hm. 01:04:19.342 --> 01:04:19.852 You know? 01:04:20.602 --> 01:04:23.662 Well, that was the thing is that I thought she was a daggy therapist. 01:04:23.662 --> 01:04:26.962 Apart from those couple of moments, she locked my locked eyes with me. 01:04:26.962 --> 01:04:29.062 Then I thought, oh, there's deep power here. 01:04:29.572 --> 01:04:33.472 So maybe she's just got a daggy exterior and a bit of a daggy office and all that. 01:04:33.502 --> 01:04:34.222 Well, I mean, come on. 01:04:34.222 --> 01:04:37.867 Think about the sort of, think about the sort of like. 01:04:38.662 --> 01:04:43.522 Slightly unassuming looking, but ultimately powerful 01:04:43.522 --> 01:04:45.292 mentor figures in films. 01:04:45.592 --> 01:04:50.182 I was gonna say in the spiritual journeys too, they're often s deeply spiritual 01:04:50.182 --> 01:04:52.762 people come in un unexpected packages. 01:04:52.792 --> 01:04:53.122 Correct. 01:04:53.152 --> 01:04:57.712 They're often, you know, sort of shambling and sort of lacking respectability in 01:04:58.642 --> 01:05:00.802 some way, but they're exactly the thing. 01:05:01.222 --> 01:05:02.242 That needs to happen. 01:05:02.272 --> 01:05:02.962 Yeah. 01:05:02.962 --> 01:05:06.082 You know, I felt elated last night driving home from, I can tell. 01:05:06.082 --> 01:05:06.862 I can tell you. 01:05:06.867 --> 01:05:07.227 Would you? 01:05:07.227 --> 01:05:07.237 Yeah. 01:05:07.402 --> 01:05:10.132 I had some hope that I might get some more sanity. 01:05:10.222 --> 01:05:12.742 Well, I think this diagnosis makes a lot of sense and as she said, we 01:05:12.742 --> 01:05:14.152 can get official about all that. 01:05:14.152 --> 01:05:17.932 But the point is, she can already begin with, you know what, what a doctor 01:05:17.932 --> 01:05:21.292 might call an empirical diagnosis is, and we will try these things 01:05:21.292 --> 01:05:24.022 and that will help us to understand whether that's what's going on. 01:05:24.622 --> 01:05:27.772 And I think you'll find, well the last bit. 01:05:28.402 --> 01:05:32.032 My last contact with the notion of OCD was in this Youth Mental Health 01:05:32.032 --> 01:05:35.242 First Aid training, and it was one of the last things we looked at 01:05:35.242 --> 01:05:38.842 and uh, my attention was starting to flag, but I reevaluated my. 01:05:40.567 --> 01:05:44.737 Earlier feeling that OCD was an incredibly difficult treatment resistant condition. 01:05:44.737 --> 01:05:49.927 And it's like, well, apparently the newer evidence is that it's not so, well, my 01:05:49.927 --> 01:05:55.447 friend with OCD says it's incredibly incur, incurable, and untreatable. 01:05:56.317 --> 01:05:59.017 So that's what he says he is lived with it his whole adult life. 01:05:59.677 --> 01:06:00.067 Yeah. 01:06:00.157 --> 01:06:04.761 So I dunno, I, having said that, you know, don't you feel after. 01:06:05.616 --> 01:06:08.106 X amount of therapy and like spiritual questing and stuff, 01:06:08.106 --> 01:06:12.426 that there might genuinely be something incurable about all of us. 01:06:12.846 --> 01:06:16.206 And, and, you know, and that it's, you know, incurable, romantic. 01:06:16.326 --> 01:06:20.166 That's, that's actually all I know is my experience of reality at the 01:06:20.166 --> 01:06:23.556 moment is I go to bed in a good place and I wake up in a bad place. 01:06:24.006 --> 01:06:24.336 Mm-hmm. 01:06:24.336 --> 01:06:27.966 And then I work my way from the bad place to the good place, and 01:06:27.966 --> 01:06:31.056 then I repeat it and it's phe. 01:06:31.806 --> 01:06:32.286 Yeah. 01:06:32.586 --> 01:06:32.946 Yeah. 01:06:33.156 --> 01:06:34.131 Do you, I mean. 01:06:35.496 --> 01:06:36.516 When you repeat something. 01:06:36.516 --> 01:06:38.706 So I don't look forward to going to bed because I know I'm 01:06:38.706 --> 01:06:40.296 gonna wake up and feel terrible. 01:06:41.316 --> 01:06:41.616 Hmm. 01:06:41.646 --> 01:06:42.666 And be full of fear. 01:06:43.146 --> 01:06:45.636 Well, that's a reasonable excuse for not wanting to go to bed. 01:06:45.636 --> 01:06:47.436 I'm not quite sure what mine is. 01:06:48.096 --> 01:06:49.116 You just get distracted. 01:06:49.386 --> 01:06:54.126 Well, yeah, but I think I also experience the feeling of mortality and fear 01:06:54.126 --> 01:06:59.621 more on the approach to bed, whereas in the morning, tired as I may be. 01:07:00.441 --> 01:07:02.571 It's kinda like, oh, cool, we'll start again. 01:07:03.591 --> 01:07:08.121 Yeah, I get some of that in there too, but I don't know, man, that's weird, isn't it? 01:07:08.121 --> 01:07:09.321 Anyway, I think we should wrap it up. 01:07:09.381 --> 01:07:10.221 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:07:10.251 --> 01:07:12.291 Um, but thank you again to Tim. 01:07:12.291 --> 01:07:12.711 Tammy. 01:07:13.461 --> 01:07:14.451 Oh, yes. 01:07:14.541 --> 01:07:15.831 Oh God, please reach out again. 01:07:15.891 --> 01:07:16.851 I remember it now. 01:07:16.851 --> 01:07:17.691 Just one more thing. 01:07:17.751 --> 01:07:18.021 Yeah. 01:07:18.051 --> 01:07:21.469 In the Bugger Gita, it says, contemplation of the sense objects. 01:07:22.007 --> 01:07:24.467 You know, you and I, we've contemplated the sense objects. 01:07:24.467 --> 01:07:27.107 A great deal leads to attachment. 01:07:27.347 --> 01:07:31.637 Attachment leads to clinging, or fear or whatever. 01:07:31.637 --> 01:07:33.467 Fear leads to anger, et cetera, et cetera. 01:07:33.677 --> 01:07:39.857 Something sim And this, uh, this leads to, you know, bad actions. 01:07:39.887 --> 01:07:41.597 This leads to the downfall. 01:07:42.407 --> 01:07:45.017 Uh, and something similar in, you know, the Star Wars. 01:07:45.017 --> 01:07:47.567 When Anakin is told, you know, he's on the wrong path. 01:07:48.557 --> 01:07:48.857 Uh. 01:07:49.472 --> 01:07:52.802 So the bugger, the Gita seems to be talking about a similar thing to Hume, 01:07:53.072 --> 01:07:56.222 but then they're like, well, you know, he place you the salvation in God. 01:07:56.612 --> 01:07:58.292 Um, it's gonna help you out with all of that. 01:07:59.462 --> 01:08:02.312 But I just, I just feel like that was important to mention that 01:08:02.312 --> 01:08:05.582 the contemplation of the sense objects, the attachment, et cetera, 01:08:06.152 --> 01:08:08.162 that there's something in that. 01:08:08.822 --> 01:08:12.212 Um, and so I, I think at the end of the day, they don't really have a big argument 01:08:12.212 --> 01:08:16.022 with the Buddhists or with David Hume or with any of that, but some of the stage 01:08:16.022 --> 01:08:17.552 dressings are sort of a bit different. 01:08:17.852 --> 01:08:17.882 Mm. 01:08:17.882 --> 01:08:22.742 But they're sort of saying the same thing, that if you take this fixed 01:08:22.742 --> 01:08:27.272 perspective and then contemplate the things you want and don't want, and 01:08:27.272 --> 01:08:30.812 you sort of build your life around that, that yeah, it's gonna lead to 01:08:32.462 --> 01:08:34.502 suffering and that we need to be maybe. 01:08:35.357 --> 01:08:39.167 Not undiscriminating and foolish, but maybe a little less pick and choosy 01:08:39.167 --> 01:08:40.787 about what the good experiences are. 01:08:40.817 --> 01:08:41.687 Do you know what I mean? 01:08:41.957 --> 01:08:43.097 You've just gotta flow, Sam. 01:08:43.307 --> 01:08:44.897 It's a hard thing to put it like this. 01:08:44.897 --> 01:08:45.887 Just gotta flow deep. 01:08:46.157 --> 01:08:49.607 As the Polish guy said to me at the end of a really interesting and 01:08:49.607 --> 01:08:54.437 weird and painful night, sometimes you just gotta eat shit, man. 01:08:55.787 --> 01:08:58.577 And it's like, I've thought about that so many times over the 01:08:58.577 --> 01:08:59.632 years and I was like, and then. 01:09:00.452 --> 01:09:01.367 If you can just, ugh. 01:09:01.682 --> 01:09:04.832 I have experienced this recently of just going like, oh man, it's 01:09:04.832 --> 01:09:06.482 not coming up my number right now. 01:09:06.482 --> 01:09:07.442 But I just, I don't know. 01:09:07.442 --> 01:09:11.402 I just, I've been able to just go, it's all right. 01:09:11.402 --> 01:09:12.632 Swings and roundabouts. 01:09:12.632 --> 01:09:14.312 I'll be winning again one day. 01:09:14.312 --> 01:09:14.642 You know? 01:09:14.642 --> 01:09:17.312 It's like, yeah, maybe you'll have a good morning. 01:09:17.312 --> 01:09:18.452 One of these days. 01:09:18.692 --> 01:09:22.172 Yeah, maybe I'll wake up and, and all the suffering will be over. 01:09:22.922 --> 01:09:26.852 Oh, well, I mean that's, you know, but I've taken away the chemical. 01:09:27.722 --> 01:09:30.542 Apart from coffee, which is the only reason I can. 01:09:31.532 --> 01:09:32.912 Like start the day at all. 01:09:33.092 --> 01:09:33.542 Mm, same. 01:09:33.752 --> 01:09:34.022 Yeah. 01:09:34.082 --> 01:09:38.672 I've taken away the, the luxury of chemical dependency for at least 01:09:38.672 --> 01:09:39.932 the last three and a bit years. 01:09:39.962 --> 01:09:42.032 Well, that's a form of liberation in itself. 01:09:42.182 --> 01:09:43.412 You know, MOIA. 01:09:43.472 --> 01:09:43.922 Yeah. 01:09:43.922 --> 01:09:45.782 And then I go through more suffering. 01:09:45.812 --> 01:09:47.492 'cause there's no relief from the suffering. 01:09:48.182 --> 01:09:48.692 Mm. 01:09:48.752 --> 01:09:52.202 There's no 45 seconds on nitrous oxide where everything's amazing. 01:09:53.402 --> 01:09:54.512 Hmm. 01:09:54.812 --> 01:09:55.382 You know what? 01:09:55.412 --> 01:09:57.662 There's a mixture of a spiritual problem, which you have been 01:09:57.662 --> 01:09:59.312 working very, very hard on. 01:09:59.792 --> 01:10:00.332 There's a sort of. 01:10:00.602 --> 01:10:05.792 A phenomenological thing about hear about just how you experience consciousness, 01:10:05.792 --> 01:10:07.052 which you've been working hard on. 01:10:07.622 --> 01:10:13.862 But then I think there might also be where the uh, where the uh, where the 01:10:13.862 --> 01:10:16.022 Eastern BS can meet Western science. 01:10:16.022 --> 01:10:19.772 And between the two of those things, you know, there might be a rational. 01:10:21.002 --> 01:10:25.322 Basis for proceeding with this diagnosis and, you know, a 01:10:25.322 --> 01:10:26.792 new chapter, a new therapist. 01:10:27.002 --> 01:10:28.022 I'm optimistic. 01:10:28.442 --> 01:10:29.042 Thanks, Sam. 01:10:29.102 --> 01:10:30.302 Revolutionary optimism. 01:10:30.302 --> 01:10:34.682 And I, like I said, since I got here, you've had a really good energy about you. 01:10:34.892 --> 01:10:35.342 Thank you. 01:10:35.402 --> 01:10:38.312 And you've got springing your step and it's just nice to see. 01:10:38.312 --> 01:10:40.832 So whatever you've been doing, just keep doing that. 01:10:41.852 --> 01:10:42.362 Yeah. 01:10:43.022 --> 01:10:43.382 Yep. 01:10:43.472 --> 01:10:47.522 I've just been fussing a lot less, and that's about it. 01:10:47.912 --> 01:10:49.622 You know, fuss a lot less. 01:10:50.192 --> 01:10:52.802 Let's not flail about here quite so much, you know? 01:10:52.892 --> 01:10:53.072 Yeah. 01:10:53.312 --> 01:10:54.062 Simple as Sounds good. 01:10:54.152 --> 01:10:55.052 Good place to end it. 01:10:55.292 --> 01:10:55.592 Yeah. 01:10:56.072 --> 01:10:56.522 All right. 01:10:56.582 --> 01:10:57.572 We'll see you later, Sam. 01:10:57.962 --> 01:10:58.772 Oh yeah. 01:10:58.832 --> 01:10:59.342 See you soon. 01:10:59.672 --> 01:10:59.942 All right. 01:11:00.302 --> 01:11:00.902 Bye.